HN90 (Mark Kerry) provides evidence about his deployment into the Socialist Workers Party, the use of deceased children's identities for undercover work, guidance on sexual relationships, and discusses colleagues who had sexual encounters. The session includes examination of HN95 (Stefan Scott) whose deployment ended in a mental health crisis.
00:24:27 e e
00:25:29 I begin as I always do by welcoming everybody to uh our open hearings um but I have two things to say to start with which will'll be
00:25:35 familiar anyone in the room may use a mobile electronic device to transmit silently to the outside world uh What uh has been seen and heard in the inquiry but only 10 minutes after the event
00:25:49 but only 10 minutes after the event which is being described 10 minutes must be elapsed so that the uh delay on the
00:26:04 be elapsed so that the uh delay on the video stream via YouTube uh is not uh uh interfered with you may not use any electronic device for recording proceedings or taking photographs um as you entered uh today you were required to agree to an order restricting onward transmission or communication of information set out in
00:26:19 communication of information set out in the annex which you were shown on Entry to the hearing room this information will not be published in the hearing transcript and will not be transmitted via the YouTube stream uh
00:26:37 if inadvertently in the course of today's proceedings uh the name uh is mentioned
00:26:39 mentioned uh then
00:26:42 uh then uh we will have to pause proceedings uh if um you don't know uh What uh is required of you or have any concerns about it or any questions about
00:26:57 concerns about it or any questions about it please um ask a member of the inquiry team
00:26:59 team uh to help you uh understand what is
00:27:11 required the YouTube stream uh is going to be replaced uh during part of today's proceedings by a zoom call that's necessary to permit the order that I've just referred to uh
00:27:25 order that I've just referred to uh protecting the name of the individual uh to be given effect to
00:27:36 yes now I think we can now begin sir this is the summary for the undercover officer known as Stefan Scott hn 95 real name Stefan Scott lives abroad he declined to give evidence to the inquiry and has not provided a
00:27:50 the inquiry and has not provided a witness statement as a result this summary is compiled from the contemporaneous documentary record of Scott's deployment and its aftermath unlike most of his contemporaries Stephan Scott did not use
00:28:03 contemporaries Stephan Scott did not use a deceased child identity he was adopted as a baby and instead used his birth name which was Stefan wenti weselowski an actual date of birth for his SDS cover identity which details appeared on
00:28:21 cover identity which details appeared on his cover driving license along with the address of his then manager di Michael barar stepan Scot joined the SDS in October 1985 and by December 1985 appears to have deployed into the Socialist Workers Party in Hackney a Target decision influenced by the security
00:28:33 security service the first report obtained by the inquiry attributable to Scutt is dated the 6th of December 1985 and concerns a public meeting held by the Hackney North
00:28:45 public meeting held by the Hackney North Branch of the swp on how to smash racism the main speaker Paul hbor who scut describes as quote an articulate and mildly amusing orator end quote covers the history of racism in the UK with quote particular emphasis on the blatant
00:29:00 quote particular emphasis on the blatant racism that he feels pervades the police service end quote the first report from scut obtained by the inquiry on the then recently formed hne South Branch into which he deployed is dated the 21st of January
00:29:14 January 1985 whilst the theme of the meeting was reported to be quote the crisis in European democracy end quot Scott gleans from it information relating to the then current Teachers Pay dispute such as the relatively High number of teachers
00:29:30 relatively High number of teachers amongst Branch members plans for strike action a march by local teachers and a Lobby of
00:29:37 parliament a number of Scott's early reports concern the whopping dispute here is the likely source of information phoned in to SDS managers which they too relay by phone on swp involvement in forthcoming pickets at The Print Works
00:29:51 forthcoming pickets at The Print Works in a message dated the 14th of February 1986 for example di barar notifies Commander Ops that the swp Central Committee has ordered an all London
00:30:04 Committee has ordered an all London callout of party members to support the mass picket at whopping on the 15th of February
00:30:08 February 1986 that picket is the subject of a report by Scott dated the 18th of February 1986 in which he records that approximately 1,100 supporters of the Socialist Workers student Society boosted attendee numbers and that s swp
00:30:22 boosted attendee numbers and that s swp members were instructed by whom it's not entirely clear to pull down crowd control barriers in a passage underlined for emphasis he reports that quote a
00:30:35 for emphasis he reports that quote a particularly vicious group of anarchists had vowed the following week to return with ball bearings and scissors to sabotage mounted officers a scut report dated the 5th of March 1986 refers to an individual present at the picket of the 22nd of
00:30:47 present at the picket of the 22nd of February and at that of the 1st of March 1986 who was said to have boasted of throwing a Thunder flash at a police horse and declared his intention to do so again at a forthcoming picket Scott reports that he obtained the Thunder a flash from the individual
00:30:59 the Thunder a flash from the individual quote without arousing his suspicion end quote but provides no detail on how this was
00:31:09 was achieved a separate report from Scott on the whopping demonstration of the 15th of March describes it as violent and records that quote spontaneous action end quote led to the demolition of the perimeter
00:31:16 perimeter fence he reports anwp member before the demonstration advised swp attendees that will they themselves should not be provocative they should quote be ready to act and encourage others to do
00:31:33 to act and encourage others to do likewise the inquiry holds no reporting from Scott on the whopping action from April 19 1986 onwards which seems to correspond to an alleged waning of swp involvement in it a security service
00:31:44 involvement in it a security service note for file dated the 23st of February 23rd of February 1987 on a meeting with
00:31:57 23rd of February 1987 on a meeting with Scott records his having stated that the swp in May 1986 took a central decision to limit its routine activities at whopping to the deployment of six paperell on a branch rotor it notes that he ascribes this change in approach to the unfriendly attitude of the print unions and the parties's realization that the print
00:32:09 parties's realization that the print workers were unlikely to Prevail which sapped members morale a number of Scots reports concern the swp stance on and roll in various
00:32:20 the swp stance on and roll in various industrial disputes in one such report dated the 27th of March 1986 and in a security service note of a meeting held on the 13th of February 1987 Scot sets out swp strategy in respect of potential strike action from London bus workers
00:32:33 strike action from London bus workers the inner London Teachers Association and purported efforts by the swp to urge the civil and public services Association to a short-term strike in February
00:32:43 February 1987 two substantive reports from the latter part of Scot's deployment revisit this topic one date to the 9th of February 1988 analyzes the S swp's role in a number of ongoing industrial
00:32:59 in a number of ongoing industrial disputes including Fords in dagam and in the NHS and describes the group quote taking heart from the high level of militancy recently displayed by various sections of the workingclass and trade unions end quote another report from February 1988 appears to distill the
00:33:10 February 1988 appears to distill the contents of an swp circular issued to party members to provide quote a clear and informed lead to its members regarding the current industrial climate
00:33:21 regarding the current industrial climate end quote and presents the swp stance on three quote current disputes in a report on the swp's activity at a demonstration in Trafalga Square on the 19th of April 1986 organized by CND SCU describes the swp
00:33:38 organized by CND SCU describes the swp participating in disorder he claims that of the 200 swp members present half are involved in the quote disorder in Oxford Street end quote which followed the main demonstration Scott reports that when
00:33:53 demonstration Scott reports that when protesters sat down on Oxford Street the police deployed buses and police on fo to move them on whilst most demonstrators he claims were willing to give up when faced with these tactics the swp quote were not so inclined end quote and utilized the more quote
00:34:05 quote and utilized the more quote passive protesters as fodder end quot and organized the collection of missiles to throw at police end
00:34:16 to throw at police end quot in contrast a report dated the 9th of February 1988 on a demonstration in support of strike action from the NHS workers records that quote the swp had very few supporters involved in the subsequent
00:34:30 subsequent disorder of the many reports from Scot concerning the swp rallies at skes in 1986 and
00:34:31 1986 and 1987 most comprised list of attendees including children infants and refugees categorized by S swp Branch both london-based and Regional this intelligence was
00:34:46 Regional this intelligence was greatfully received a security service note for file dated the 7th of April 1986 records that a security service officer quote congratulated wait on hn 95's successful
00:34:59 95's successful acquisition of the list of all those attending the swp skegs weekend end quote and the 1987 annual report for the SDS celebrates the quote excellent work of an SDS officer end quote I.E Scott
00:35:15 of an SDS officer end quote I.E Scott who made it possible to provide special branch and the security service with a complete list of names of all 2000 comrades at the rally quote a feat only achieved considerable risk to the officer
00:35:29 officer involved Scott's 1986 reporting contains positive assessments of large-scale swp events his substantive report on the 1986 geges rally records 2,000 attendees and a pervasive buoyant and optimistic mood and he reports on a successful
00:35:43 mood and he reports on a successful Marxism 886 event with 4,500 registered attendees and at which he praises the sheer size and professionalism of the swp's organizational efforts there is some reporting on swp involvement in Justice campaigns a
00:35:55 involvement in Justice campaigns a report dated the 13th of March 1986 7 describes the appointment to the Trevor monoville organizing Committee of a member of Hackney South
00:36:06 member of Hackney South swp he reports that Wills Trevor Mon's parents primary objective for the campaign was that quote truth and Justice should be ascertained by way of the relevant legal processes the campaign was under pressure from quote
00:36:18 campaign was under pressure from quote various political and Community groups to incorporate the events into a more General and fundamental campaign against police oppression violence and racism end quote and that the swp saw it as
00:36:30 end quote and that the swp saw it as quote an obvious area for Recruitment and
00:36:34 and contact his reports include descriptions of women as having quote a plump build quote a pretty face and men with a quote high pitched voice and a quote effeminate walk and
00:36:53 effeminate walk and mannerism some of hn 95's reporting on the swp was sent to di hn 354 Vincent Harvey Scott met Security Service officers regularly throughout his deployment to exchange information about the
00:37:03 the swp in one such meeting held on the 30th of April
00:37:04 of April 1986 the security service emphasized to him its interest in swp members working in government departments and asked him to keep an eye on developments regarding s swp's involvement in the East London
00:37:18 s swp's involvement in the East London area such as campaigns Against Racism in schools anti-fascist action campaigns against the police and activities in the Camden local Authority in another meeting held on the
00:37:31 Authority in another meeting held on the 7th of July 1987 with DCI Docker present the security service note for far records Scott sharing his personal views on his Target group describing his swp colleagues as boring and the women as quote
00:37:45 quote ugly Scott in September 1987 also provided to the security service detailed information about an swp location in other documents for March and April 1986 and July 1987 the security service Lord Scot for his
00:38:03 security service Lord Scot for his report reporting and quote the range and depth of his knowledge end quot on the swp in addition to his local branch commitment Scott is reported in February 1987 to have worked as a van driver for
00:38:16 1987 to have worked as a van driver for the swp print shop and in February 1988 at the swp center quote when possible end
00:38:22 end quote a note for file from February 1987 indicates that Scott was offered the chance to work at the swp center fulltime an opportunity the security service were Keen for him to take up the
00:38:33 service were Keen for him to take up the note records that the DAC to whom SD SDS managers escalated the matter was against it believing such a move would risk the security of the operation and SDS manager's capacity to control Scott
00:38:46 SDS manager's capacity to control Scott the note makes it clear that both Scott and the security service were disappointed by this decision well Scott's first DCI Tony weight held him in high regard throughout his time in post docker's
00:38:57 throughout his time in post docker's estimation of Scott underwent a sharp and sudden decline in Scott's aqr of April 1987 Docker considers him to be a quote thoroughly sound and practical officer who is ideally suited to his present Duty where his qualities of initiative
00:39:15 Duty where his qualities of initiative self-discipline and experience are put to excellent use end quote a security service note of a meeting with DCI Docker on the 16th of September records that hn 95 is said to have quote two years to go and continues to do very
00:39:34 years to go and continues to do very well end quote and a note on a meeting with DCI Docker and dim 109 in March 1988 records that hn 95 is quote continuing well end quote one month later on the 20th of April 1988 di hm 109 who took over as
00:39:47 April 1988 di hm 109 who took over as SSDI in November 1987 in a negative aqr assesses Scot to have been quote operating at a minimum requirement level end quote Docker described Scott as very priv a very private and very intelligent individual who constantly seeks to
00:40:04 individual who constantly seeks to manipulate persons and situations to his own advantage and comments that it is now perfectly clear that he is submitting what he considers to be a minimum return which over the last six months has consisted mostly of lists of names and short reports on
00:40:15 names and short reports on individuals in his memo DCI Docker writes that the aqr's finding renders Scutt unfit for the SDS and that he will he will be transferred to another
00:40:26 he will be transferred to another special Branch Squad with immediate effect
00:40:31 around two weeks after his dismissal from the unit Scott on the 2nd of May 1988 had a meeting with superintendent Anthony Evans in which he was encouraged to speak his mind and which lasted for nearly 5
00:40:42 nearly 5 hours superintendent Evans note of this meeting and Scott's written response to his aqr show him criticizing SDS management for its failure as he saw it to raise with him prior to his
00:40:56 to raise with him prior to his defenestration from the unit their concerns about the quality of his
00:41:05 concerns about the quality of his work the contemporaneous special Branch paperwork suggest that the reasons set out in docker's memo memo and Scott's aqr were not the only drivers of his dismissal a security service note for file of a meeting with SDS managers DCI
00:41:19 file of a meeting with SDS managers DCI gray and Di hm 109 in November 1988 when gray had taken over from Docker as SDS DCI records further allegations that he lied about his army record and kept from managers that he cohabited in Norfolk with a partner and three young
00:41:31 three young children concerning the first charge Scott's application to join the Met states that his army career consisted of posting in the medical core only but he appears over time to have embellished his role claiming in his application for
00:41:51 his role claiming in his application for special Branch dated the first of August 1979 to have quote gained experience in the Army within the Royal Army Medical Corp and the intelligence Corp and elsewhere he claims to have quote controlled Army sources in the Belfast area as a member of the intelligence Corp which statements are bed by the
00:42:02 Corp which statements are bed by the copy of his army record obtained at some point By Di DN 109 regarding the second charge Scotts earthwell managers disagree in conflict
00:42:13 earthwell managers disagree in conflict with the claim recorded by the security service in November 1988 that Scott quote concealed from SDS management the fact that he had a common law wife and children end quote former DCI weight
00:42:24 children end quote former DCI weight attests that he knew Scot had a family in
00:42:25 in norfol there are some evidence of a further serious allegation emanating from former di hm 109 that Scott made
00:42:39 from former di hm 109 that Scott made false entries in his SDS rent book and claimed overtime to which he was not entitled to which there is a single ambiguous reference in the contemporaneous documents a security service note for file dated the 16th of June 1988 reports di hm 109 stating that
00:42:53 June 1988 reports di hm 109 stating that Quote The issue came to a head in May of this year when evidence of possible criminal deceptions and fraud on the part of hn 95 was discovered end quote hn 109 elaborates on this allegation against Scott in his more recent
00:43:09 accounts the contemporaneous paperwork suggests that these additional claims may not have been disclosed to senior manager managers nor to Scutt himself for example superintendent Evans following his meeting with Scutt in May
00:43:26 following his meeting with Scutt in May 1988 infers that he sought in vain from hm 109 greater Clarity on the reasons for Scott's discharge and the documents record that scut on more than one occasion asked Senior Management whether there were reasons for his expulsion other than those he had been
00:43:35 had been given in his minute of May 1988 concerning his 5-hour interview with Scott superintendent Evans provides his own view on the main reason for Scott's dismissal remarking that quote whatever
00:43:51 dismissal remarking that quote whatever questions might be raised about Scott's work performance the root of this problem is the breakdown of relationships between him and Di hn 109 they are not compliment characters end
00:44:02 they are not compliment characters end quote the document suggests that Scot's dismissal divided the unit will some officers welcomed it others including
00:44:13 officers welcomed it others including Bob Lambert hn10 John dyes hn5 and hn8 took Scott's side requesting at short notice a meeting with superintendent Evans at which they asked for Scott to be given additional time to withdraw and which may have contributed to Scott's deadline for withdrawal being extended twice until the 13th of June 1988
00:44:29 twice until the 13th of June 1988 well Devon records that his meeting quote with the deputation has not created any visible problems for dihm 109 hm 109 testifies that at a meeting in a pub with some of those same officers as well as Scott Bob Lambert
00:44:44 officers as well as Scott Bob Lambert pushed him against a wall declaring that they would leave him alone only if he left quote Steph end quote alone Robert Lambert in his withness statement denies that this
00:44:59 that this happened other documents show that Scots dismissed also divided special Branch management former DCI weight who recruited Scott remained supportive of him hm 109 will say that sometime after he' served the negative aqr on Scott superintendent Evans arranged a meeting
00:45:17 superintendent Evans arranged a meeting with hm 109 at which he put pressure on him resisted by hm 109 to reinstate Scott as an SDS UC the documents describ Scott in the aftermath of his discharge from the SDS as visibly and openly stressed
00:45:30 as visibly and openly stressed superintendent Evans described Scott at the outset of their post aqr interview in May as quote looking gray and drawn end quote as appearing quote to be quite
00:45:44 end quote as appearing quote to be quite ill with worry and as clearly devastated end
00:45:44 end quote Scott is reported to have cried during a telephone conversation with Ds Sutliff about his leaving the unit and to have described himself to command a
00:45:56 to have described himself to command a gun as quote totally shattered end quote by aent
00:45:58 by aent in a minute dat of the 20th of April 1988 Commander gun directs that quote we must of course pay close attention to his post SDS counseling and any supervision welfare matters that may
00:46:13 supervision welfare matters that may arise and after his meeting with Scot on the 16th of May 1988 recognizes that quote we do have a potential welfare problem end quote and assesses Scott's present demeanor to Warrant a recommendation to the personnel and
00:46:29 recommendation to the personnel and training department that he be quote removed from the list of authorized Firearms
00:46:33 Firearms officers in the weeks that follow things unravel further a memo dated the 8th of June 1988 from acting DCI hm 109 in the
00:46:45 June 1988 from acting DCI hm 109 in the absence of DCI Docker who was attending a course at bramell policing College until the 13th of June 1988 reports that Scott has gone absent without leave having failed to contact the office after he was seen last at an
00:46:57 the office after he was seen last at an SDS meeting on the 6th of June at which he is said to have apologized to DS Sutliff for crying during their call the previous
00:47:02 previous day it describes DS Lambert on the 7th of June contacting Scott's partner who apparently seemed unconcerned by Scott's absence and quote spoke about the health of the children end
00:47:14 of the children end quote whilst hm 109 in the memo concedes that quote there is no doubt the officer has been upset at his withdrawal from
00:47:26 has been upset at his withdrawal from the SDS and could be described as having exhibited signs of depression end quote he suggested this may be contrived the documents chart the
00:47:37 contrived the documents chart the measures taken to locate Scutt which include dispatching DS Hyde DS Bob Lambert and a female detective to Scott's Home in Norfolk at which according to a security service note of a meeting with hm 109 on the 16th of June 1988 SD office SDS officers said that unless h95 surrendered himself by
00:47:52 that unless h95 surrendered himself by Monday the 6th of June a warrant would be issued for his arrest other measures included advising the appoint appointment of an independent investigating officer and setting a motion quote an official
00:48:04 setting a motion quote an official inquiry into scut's conduct over the past
00:48:05 past week the documents attest to Scot's reappearance Days Later a police report dated the 22nd of June 1988 records that at 10:35 a.m. on the 12th of June a
00:48:17 at 10:35 a.m. on the 12th of June a member of the public reported a quote suspicious looking man end quote lying on the benches in the pr precincts of York Cathedral it reports that the attending officer
00:48:29 it reports that the attending officer finding the man to be confused depressed and uncooperative took him to the police station where he was searched and Scott's negative aqr found on him which led to his
00:48:41 led to his identification the same police report records that at York Police Headquarters Scott revealed to a DS and a chief superintendent that he was a member of
00:48:54 superintendent that he was a member of the SDS and that his discharge from the unit had led to his becoming confused depressed and going awall he was then taken to Police Headquarters where the author of the report and a female detective Constable kept him under close supervision of Scott the reporting
00:49:08 supervision of Scott the reporting officer writes quote it was clear that he was confused and had a persecution fixation against his inspector who he blamed for his forthcoming move the officer records that Scott then went on to disclose that quote he was a
00:49:22 went on to disclose that quote he was a member of a squad of six officers whose brief was to infiltrate subversive groups Scot himself had infiltrated the wearies a slang term for the Socialist Workers Party at the highest level and was working in their central office with
00:49:34 was working in their central office with access to all records end quote he takes care to note that quote Scott spoke only of his work to myself and WDC privacy other officers were merely under
00:49:45 privacy other officers were merely under the impression that he was an undercover officer and nothing further end quote he ends the report with an assurance that
00:49:56 ends the report with an assurance that no copies of the report will be retained at York quote in view of the delicate and sensitive nature of Scott's work North York's police then contacted special Branch Reserve who contacted
00:50:08 special Branch Reserve who contacted Commander gun who dispatched DCI hn 337 the officer appointed to investigate Scott's disappearance DS Steines and a female detective to collect Scutt he was voluntarily admitted to the Met police nursing home later that
00:50:21 nursing home later that day following as an assessment by a consultant psychiatrist at henden Scott on the 14th of June 1988 returned to his home in
00:50:31 home in Norfolk concerned about Scott's mental state and declaring himself to be quote particularly exercised end quote on behalf of Scott's partner and his three young children the for psychiatrist
00:50:42 young children the for psychiatrist recommended to command a gun that he have no contact with police officers Scott have no contact with police officers until he the psychiatrist consided him to be sufficiently fit not withstanding this
00:50:57 fit not withstanding this advice Commander gun in a minute dated the 14th of July 1988 writes that he considers the pressing operational need to assess damage limitation factors in light of scut's disclosures to North
00:51:09 light of scut's disclosures to North York's police to override the medical concern for Scutt and obtains an MPS doctor's permission in the absence of Scott psychiatrist who was on leave until September of that year for Chief Inspector hn 337 and the female
00:51:20 Inspector hn 337 and the female detective to visit Scott at home gun notes that quote I have emphasized that this conversation with Scott should not be in formal disciplinary mode but rather take the form of a general conversation with the primary aim of
00:51:36 conversation with the primary aim of winning Scott's confidence end quote on the 15th of July Commander gun reports that when DCI n337 rang Scott to arrange what appears to have been presented to him as a welfare visit Scott flatly
00:51:49 him as a welfare visit Scott flatly refused a development which gun claims quote
00:51:57 quote disturbs in a minute date of the 19th of July 1988 DAC felon reports that he and Commander gun have agreed that DCI hn 337 and the female detective should pay Scott a visit
00:52:08 Scott a visit unannounced DCI n337 note of this visit on the 22nd of July records that he questions Scott who he describes as surprised by the visit and is still wearing the long hair and beard cultivated for his cover ID about the
00:52:19 cultivated for his cover ID about the nature and extent of his disclosures to the North Yorkshire police and others he notes that Scott at one point cried out I don't know who or what I am now and as the meeting ended asserted that as the
00:52:36 the meeting ended asserted that as the visit coincided with the absence of his psychiatrist it would quote set his treatment back end quote DCI n337 concludes his memo with the observation that quote he I.E Scott will no doubt make the most of the occasion at his
00:52:49 make the most of the occasion at his next appointment with doctor redacted due on the 8th of
00:52:56 September on the 22nd of July 1988 Scot managers were made aware that norfor police held a suspect record on Scott after that Force inquired into whether a vehicle driven by Scot was an NPS vehicle and on the 26th of July DCS
00:53:07 vehicle and on the 26th of July DCS Parker went to review it the record contains a number of entries reporting amongst other things that Scott had apparently revealed to people of interest to the police and convicted
00:53:20 interest to the police and convicted criminals with whom he was friendly that he was an MPS officer and worked undercover despite special Branch Management's negative view of Scott the documents attest to its reluctance to
00:53:31 documents attest to its reluctance to invoke the disciplinary process against him following Scott's period of absence
00:53:43 him following Scott's period of absence without leave and the revelation of his disclosures to North York's police a minute dated the 12th of July 1988 records Commander gun's view that disciplinary proceedings would achieve little and that quote indeed we have more to lose end quote in a minute dated the 3rd of
00:53:57 quote in a minute dated the 3rd of August 1988 following the revelation of the suspect record DCS Parker reasons that whilst he considers SC conduct on his home turf to amount to a clear
00:54:09 his home turf to amount to a clear breach of discipline the absence in the record of evidence of criminality and anything linking scut to the SDS vitiates the need for disciplinary proceedings adding that it would be difficult and complicated to establish
00:54:24 difficult and complicated to establish the facts and would only expose the unit to unwelcome publicity quote which has been the very thing our actions have been aimed at preventing Scott psychiatrist in a letter dated the 14th of July 1988 to the Met's chief medical officer writes of Scott that quote he is quite deeply disturbed
00:54:37 quote he is quite deeply disturbed because of the way in which he believes he has been treated by senior officers in the branch and that the manner of of sorry and that the manner of his withdrawal quote seems to be a
00:54:49 withdrawal quote seems to be a calculated disgrace which hurt him very deeply he continues quote above all he has not wanted to see the officers whom he believes have subjected to to such insult and humiliation end quote another
00:55:02 insult and humiliation end quote another document suggests that this psychiatrist attributed Scot's mental distress in part to an alter ego problem caused it inferred by his SDS work a similar diagnosis to that of T1 officer hn1
00:55:15 diagnosis to that of T1 officer hn1 155 Docker for example in an s in a security service note dated the 18th of July 1988 is said to have commented that the police psychiatrist appeared to be
00:55:33 the police psychiatrist appeared to be accept ing his I.E Scott's performance as genuine and talked in terms of his needing to work out his alter ego problem in contrast the evidence suggests that the STDs and senior special Branch management believes Scott to be faking his mental disturbance a security service note for
00:55:49 disturbance a security service note for file dated the 19th of July 1988 records DCI Docker to have claimed that Scott quote continued to Fain mental instability as a result of his SDS work Scott's account of his mistreatment by managers as set out in his psychiatrist letter of the 14th of July has been
00:56:04 letter of the 14th of July has been annotated by Commander gun with comments such as quote untrue nonsense
00:56:13 outrageous the document suggests that Scott's managers also consider Scott to be feigning mental instability triggered by his SDS role as a ploy to secure him a large payout a medical discharge from
00:56:27 a large payout a medical discharge from the force akin to that received by hm55 a security service note dated the 22nd of June 1988 records DCI docker's claim that Scott was quote angling for a medical discharge end quote it was
00:56:38 medical discharge end quote it was feared it seems that such an outcome might prove fatal to the SDS a security service note for file dated the 19th of July 1988 for example records DCI Docker
00:56:51 July 1988 for example records DCI Docker explaining that quote the feeling seemed to be if any other SDS agent began playing up and seeking a medical dis charge the SDS would be folded up in the weeks after Scott reappeared
00:57:02 up in the weeks after Scott reappeared senior special Branch management leased
00:57:13 senior special Branch management leased with those charged with his medical care in a minute dated the 14th of June 1988 for example Commander gun refers to a conversation he had that day with a Consulting physician in which he apprised him of a previous medical retirement and a grant of 30% injury
00:57:24 retirement and a grant of 30% injury award to an SDS officer diagnosed with a personality disorder arising from an alter ego problem brought on by his time in the SDS and shared with him his concerns that alter ego might become an easy excuse for any SDS officer
00:57:44 easy excuse for any SDS officer experiencing domestic and professional difficulties in another minute of the same date gun notes that he repeated these concerns to Scott psychiatrist a third minute dated the 21st of July 1988 following gun's receipt and annotation of the letter
00:57:57 receipt and annotation of the letter from Scott psychiatrist to the PS chief medical officer documents that he has quote arranged to see do redacted when he returns from leave in September to set the record straight end
00:58:08 set the record straight end quote documents show that Scott in the end received a diagnosis of a pre-existing personality disorder which outcome eliminated his time in the SDS
00:58:19 outcome eliminated his time in the SDS as a contributing factor thereby ruling out a substantial injury award on the 17th of October 1988 it was recommended by the MPS Consulting physician that Scott quote be returned as medically
00:58:32 Scott quote be returned as medically unfit for further surface with the force on the grounds of Depression end quote the documents record a second and final meeting between Scot and DCI hn 337 on the 22nd of November 1988
00:58:44 337 on the 22nd of November 1988 following confirmation of his medical retirement from the force the meeting had the purpose of allowing Scot to sign his retirement papers documents indicate that at this
00:59:02 papers documents indicate that at this meeting Scott alleged to DCI hn 337 that a fellow SDS officer had had an affair in their cover identity gun in a minute dated the 25th of November 1988 refers to this development obliquely thus quote other
00:59:17 development obliquely thus quote other matters arising from the visit are dealt with in a separate report end quote which report appears no longer to exist a further minute evidences that the off officer Accused by Scott and their partner were interviewed by DCI
00:59:31 their partner were interviewed by DCI Martin gray and Di hm 109 that same day but Martin Gray's report of that interview referred to in a minute from Commander gun in which he records that quote I have asked DCS Smith to expand upon the reasons for the assertions of DCI gray in par three of his report at
00:59:47 DCI gray in par three of his report at 1B and quote I have also asked for more detail of redacted explanations to the allegations is also missing from special Branch
00:59:54 Branch records other documents show that the UCO and their partner were interviewed again on the 18th of January 19889 This Time by DCI McLoud a branch note records his
01:00:06 McLoud a branch note records his unqualified acceptance of the uco's claim that Scott's accusations were fueled by resentment of the uco's refusal to support Scott in the wake of his discharge from the SDS and he
01:00:18 his discharge from the SDS and he concludes that the allegation is quote nothing but a malicious smear the documents show that some information concerning Scott's dismissal from the SDS and his discharge from the
01:00:29 from the SDS and his discharge from the force went up to commanders anisley and Howley with the former directing that Scott's medical retirement quote will need careful handling and that quote the reasons for this course of action have been properly brought to Scott's
01:00:43 been properly brought to Scott's attention end quote a document dated the 14th of August 1989 shows that even the director general of the security service was apprised of the episode the home office however was deliberately kept in the dark an
01:00:56 deliberately kept in the dark an approach the SDS took steps to ensure the security service would not undermine a security service note for
01:01:07 undermine a security service note for file dated the 1st of December 1988 on a meeting with DCI Martin gray and Di hm 109 records that quote the SDS
01:01:17 109 records that quote the SDS considered this to be an internal matter only they may decide to allude to it in their 1988 annual report but were very exercised at the idea of the problem being brought to the immediate attention of the home office end quote it is further noted thate F4 redacted in conversation assured them that we had no
01:01:33 conversation assured them that we had no intention of saying anything to the home office in the interest of good F4 SDS relations they should not be pushed on the point as they are extremely sensitive about it end
01:01:45 sensitive about it end quote a security service minute from the following day provides an update from the SDS reporting that Scott's diagnosis is that the cause of his mental instability predated his SDS work its author also emphasizes the importance of
01:01:59 author also emphasizes the importance of retaining good relations with SDS in the interest of future intelligence gathering from an important source and that with this in mind quote it might be wise not to mention SDS internal difficulties to the home office it is not impossible that the entire SDS
01:02:11 not impossible that the entire SDS operation could be closed down if there
01:02:19 operation could be closed down if there were sufficient political outcry against the background of current parliamentary debates and that would be much to the disadvantage of our intelligence collection it would in any event be for the police to judge what needs to be said to the home office end
01:02:32 said to the home office end quote not long after the SCU Deb barkle but in ignorance of it the home office decided that the unit was no longer required to seek yearly authorization and that its continuation was guaranteed on a rolling
01:02:43 on a rolling basis in the immediate aftermath of the crisis DCS Parker on the 5th of July 1988 commissioned from DCI Docker with some input from the heads of other special Branch squads a discussion paper on the SDS viability its internal
01:02:58 on the SDS viability its internal processes and procedures its future strategy and postfield supervision as a result of this review SDS recruitment procedures were tightened up with SDS managers required
01:03:10 tightened up with SDS managers required to present to a panel of senior special branch managers a case for recruiting individual applicants and to conduct a review of applicants personal files a note of a meeting with the
01:03:22 files a note of a meeting with the security service on the 30th of November 1988 records that SDS managers d gray and dihm 109 posited with no evidence that Scott quote possibly with the
01:03:34 that Scott quote possibly with the connivance of his partner end quote was responsible for a uco's compromise the previous year about which incident Scot notified
01:03:41 notified managers the documents also show management voicing concerns that an embittered Scutt would breach SDS
01:03:56 embittered Scutt would breach SDS security by revealing the location of safe houses and or through Anonymous disclosures to members of officers Target groups preventative action included temporarily holding SDS meetings at manager's homes whilst new secure premises were found and a reassessment and update of the SDS
01:04:08 reassessment and update of the SDS response to a security breach ultimately these fears Pro proved groundless and Scotts promised to DCI hn 337 at their meeting on the 22nd of July 1988 that he would do nothing to jeopardize the
01:04:24 would do nothing to jeopardize the safety of his fellow officers was born out so that concludes the summary for Stephan Scott thank you very much um I think there's one thing that can usefully be added to
01:04:35 one thing that can usefully be added to it which is the uh sole reference to the departure of Scott in the 1988 annual SDS report where uh it says simply this open quote one detective Constable retired from the Metropolitan Police
01:04:46 retired from the Metropolitan Police through ill health close quote indeed thank you thank you uh at this point we can either break 15 minutes to enable
01:05:00 can either break 15 minutes to enable our transcribers to have uh their usual break or we can continue with live evidence which would you prefer have to continue to continue yes then we'll continue with the live evidence of
01:05:20 hn9 I'll have to rise for a moment or two to permit everything to be set up for that to happen thank
01:05:24 you
01:10:54 e e
01:11:46 he you like to stand just repeat the words after me I swear by almighty God I swear by almighty God that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth nothing
01:12:00 but
01:12:06 yes good morning my name is John Warrington and I'm asking questions on behalf of the inquiry over the course of today now you are the former special
01:12:21 today now you are the former special demonstration Squad undercover police officer known to the inquiry by the cipher h90 is that correct yes sir and for the benefit of those following today's proceedings you'll be referred to as hn9 throughout questioning as
01:12:34 to as hn9 throughout questioning as there is a restriction order in place that prohibits publication of your real
01:12:49 name you prepared a witness statement uh for the purpose of the inquiry is that right yes that's correct sir it's 74 pages long is that correct
01:13:05 yes that's right dated the 13th of May 2022 is that right that's correct you've signed that statement is that
01:13:13 correct yes are the contents of your witness statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief they are hn9 that puts the whole of your witness statement into to evidence and
01:13:28 witness statement into to evidence and if not already it should appear on the inquiry's website in due
01:13:37 course now I just want to ask you to begin with a few questions about your early
01:13:39 early career and I think it's right that you joined the Metropolitan Police Service in the early 1980s is that right that's correct you spent some time as a
01:13:51 correct you spent some time as a uniformed officer and thereafter applied for and were selected for special branch is that correct correct you commenced with special
01:14:09 correct you commenced with special Branch as a probationer in the mid 1980s when you were assigned to cquad is that right
01:14:16 yes please don't tell us what duties but is it correct that you were then transferred onto different duties following your time on C Squad yes
01:14:29 uh you eventually went into the special demonstration Squad back office in April 1988 is that correct correct and I think it's right that by that time you'd pass your Sergeant's
01:14:40 your Sergeant's exam around that
01:14:53 time but is it also correct that you remained a detective Constable when you went into the SDS back office that's correct
01:15:07 now whilst you were on C Squad did you receive intelligence reports
01:15:18 yes were you aware of whil on C Squad of a separate special Branch unit that was obtaining and providing intelligence to special branch I became aware
01:15:31 yes how did you become
01:15:41 aware I I needed information which a colleague of mine said oh well I can help you with that and um then I was basically taken under that
01:15:52 um then I was basically taken under that person's Wing as it were and um told how how some information um comes into
01:16:05 possession did you have any knowledge of the unit before you posted to C Squad no none at
01:16:21 all how useful uh did you find the intelligence that you were receiving
01:16:27 yes it was a value some of it more than others
01:16:30 others obviously um but it was useful information
01:16:42 yes now I want to ask you a little bit H and9 about your selection uh for the
01:16:55 SDS and please be careful about names and Fields of deployment that others were in at the relevant time uh and be careful about avoiding uh specifying what duties you undertaking for special Branch at the time all
01:17:11 for special Branch at the time all right now can you remember how you came to be recruited uh by the SDS um I had a casual conversation with a colleague um we were posted to the
01:17:26 a colleague um we were posted to the same office um at that time um and a discussion between us took place um around about the SDS and something of
01:17:37 around about the SDS and something of what it did um and that officer who was my line manager um offered to put my
01:17:49 my line manager um offered to put my name forward if I had an interest that was the first step had that officer themselves been an SDS under cover officer
01:17:51 officer yes were you interested yes
01:18:01 uh you say in your witness statement for your assistance if you need it page three paragraph nine uh that you express a Fascination for the
01:18:12 work yes can you recollect what what fascinated you about it I think I uh I understood that that
01:18:23 it I think I uh I understood that that unit was able to get um information that wouldn't be able to go to be obtained through other sources is um now I think it's a few weeks after that that you were called uh to uh a
01:18:35 that that you were called uh to uh a meeting is that right that's correct and again being careful with names I think it's right that the meeting was with uh detective Chief Inspector Docker and a
01:18:51 detective Chief Inspector Docker and a detective inspector that we know in the inquiry by the cipher hn 109 is that right that's
01:18:55 correct and can you remember if you attended that meeting yes I did was anyone else present other than the three of you
01:19:14 no can you remember whether it was held at Metropolitan Police premises or on private premises or somewhere else Metropolitan Police
01:19:23 premises was it a formal or informal meeting
01:19:25 meeting um it was formal in the sense that we were two officers sitting one side of the table and me on the other um but um it wasn't a a formal part of the selection process that I understood it
01:19:45 selection process that I understood it was more a conversation um about me uh and about my wishes regarding the unit just pause a moment
01:19:56 please were you informed during that meeting that you were being considered as a prospective candidate for the
01:20:08 SDS I can't recall being informed but my presence there obviously intimated that did you understand that that's the reason that you were at the meeting yes very much
01:20:22 so now for your benefit if you need it uh page three of your witness statement paragraph
01:20:23 paragraph 10 uh there you say that during that meeting you were asked how you would feel about spying on the lives of
01:20:35 feel about spying on the lives of others do you recollect being asked that question uh yes I can't remember the exact words obviously but yes I remember being asked that did you answer uh yes I did what did you
01:20:49 did what did you say um I said that I believe that um people had a right to protest um and I had no problem with that however because of the disorder that you know I had seen I didn't
01:21:04 that you know I had seen I didn't believe that um protesters had perhaps the right to impact so much on other people's lives that's why I believe the police were doing a good a good job to try and mitigate the effect of
01:21:20 that do you remember whether during that meeting anything was said to you about the impact that an SDS deployment might have on you uh yes I
01:21:33 remember can you remember what you were told or
01:21:34 told or advised it was the main thing revolved around the fact that I would have to cut off a lot of my social contacts um and social
01:21:44 social activities um as they were um and I
01:21:57 activities um as they were um and I would have to very carefully think about uh obviously Pro um protecting my cover as it were not exposing myself um as a police
01:21:59 police officer did cutting off social contacts and activities become a reality once you were deployed into the field yes it did
01:22:18 yes sticking with that meeting was anything said to you about any measures in place to ensure your welfare whilst you were
01:22:29 deployed I I don't recall any um any specifics um but again it was it was I think it was implied in the conversation um that things would be in place to uh you know should I have problems at any
01:22:47 point at the same meeting was anything said about any potential training for the
01:22:52 the role no I don't re recall anything being talked about regarding training
01:23:01 can you remember of any effort uh was made by your interviewers to ascertain your suitability for an undercover deployment at that initial
01:23:17 at that initial meeting um no I don't recall recall anything being spoken about
01:23:27 that can you remember whether any effort was made by your interviewers at that meeting to ascertain your resilience with a view to undertaking an undercover role no not
01:23:50 specifically can you remember at that meeting whether you were asked anything about your marital or relationship status yes I I was asked what that uh what that
01:23:57 what that was and I think it's correct that you were single at the time is that correct that's correct all right well we'll move on to that topic in a little
01:24:14 while now following on from that uh meeting what was the next thing that happened in respect of your recruitment into the
01:24:20 into the SDS um the meeting finished and then some weeks later I think it may have been um I got a telephone call um basically to say that
01:24:32 basically to say that um from the uh from DCI Docker um that I had been seen as suitable um for the unit um and that at
01:24:51 suitable um for the unit um and that at some point we would talk about uh dates for actually moving from one area of work to another
01:24:58 does it follow from that that after that initial meeting you were in effect invited to join the unit yes that's the
01:25:14 way in advance of joining the unit did you ever have any sort of formal interview for the role um
01:25:19 role um no in advance of joining the unit did you ever have have any sort of formal assessment for the position not a formal assessment
01:25:37 no going to ask that a document be brought up uh it is MPS
01:25:42 MPS 0728
01:25:44 0728 960 so this is not in the hard copy bundle but it's a document that you ought to have in loose
01:26:05 leaf just wait for that doc to come up h90 thank you now this document uh came into existence at about May 1989 and it's the SDS annual report for 1989 and that is the annual report that followed your recruitment into the SDS do do you follow that yes I understand
01:26:21 do do you follow that yes I understand yeah uh could I ask that we go to page um eight please
01:26:28 and I want to look at paragraph six with
01:26:35 you which uh says this that throughout the past 20 years there's been a continual review of the functions and operations of SDS during the past year Commander operations directed uh the detective
01:26:47 operations directed uh the detective Chief Inspector to conduct a further review of SDS with particular reference to recruitment oper operational
01:26:58 to recruitment oper operational deployment and supervisory aspects the selection procedure for a field for field officers has not previously uh presented any problems in finding suitable special Branch officers to fill the vacancies when they
01:27:10 the vacancies when they occur however the stressful and difficult nature of ss fieldwork made it necessary for the selection criteria to
01:27:23 necessary for the selection criteria to be re-examined to ensure that potential recruits are equipped psychologically and emo
01:27:25 and emo to cope with the pressures of this posting each SDS candidate is told that he'll be retained on field duties
01:27:36 he'll be retained on field duties subject to the following conditions he is physically and mentally capable of Performing the assigned Duty that he is working to a to the high standard required of SDS officers and that the
01:27:49 required of SDS officers and that the political area in which he has deployed warrants continued coverage
01:28:02 did you consider your experience of being
01:28:03 being recruited into the SDS in other words as you've told us
01:28:14 SDS in other words as you've told us conversation followed by telephone call did you consider that as having undertaken a selection
01:28:21 procedure um yes I did consider that as a procedure as as such but uh um not formal in the sense of application forms Etc but I did consider when I was being selected that I was going through
01:28:35 selected that I was going through whatever process there was at the time for
01:28:42 management looking back do you feel that the way in which you were recruited sufficiently tested or examined whether you were
01:28:50 you were psychologically and emotionally suited to an undercover deployment
01:29:01 I considered at the time that I was being obviously looked at and that people would be asking questions about me from people that had worked with me Etc
01:29:09 Etc um so as that was at the time I I
01:29:20 um so as that was at the time I I thought that that was suitable at the time to be clear however you weren't assessed by a psychiatrist or a psychologist or a doctor or any any no I was not all
01:29:42 right were the three conditions that are mentioned in the document so physical and mental capability high standards availability of a political area warranting coverage would they ever explain to you during your recruitment
01:30:03 not as three individual items there but I think they were all frankly expected of me um and that would have come you know that came about through that first meeting um but I didn't see it as uh the following conditions and then one two and
01:30:15 and three did anyone ever explain those three conditions to you in terms this is what's required this is what is expected no I don't
01:30:36 recall were you asked questions by your recruiters to test your physical and mental capability or your standards C can you remember if you ask any sort of questions to test those
01:30:50 questions to test those attributes no I can't remember any any uh questioning on that
01:31:12 now I think you uh have already told us that uh at the time of your recruitment you weren't in a relationship is that right that's correct yes or no answer to this question please hn9 did there come a point when you entered into a relationship there did
01:31:32 was that before or after you joined the SDS just after I
01:31:45 joined and yes or no again um please did you eventually get married
01:31:58 yes and again yeah yes or no answer please uh did you get married during the course of your deployment yes I
01:32:12 did now you told us a little earlier that at that initial meeting you were asked about whether you were in a relationship did I understand you correctly yes I believe so yeah what was it explained to you at that initial meeting why um your
01:32:30 you at that initial meeting why um your relationship status was important or of interest to your interviewers no I don't recall that
01:32:42 conversation does it follow then that no explanation was given to you at that stage as to why um your recruiters wanted to know whether you were single married or whatever I I do recall it around that
01:32:55 whatever I I do recall it around that time but I don't think it was from that first meeting all right well we'll get on to perhaps what happened later in due
01:33:08 calls just sticking with the initial meeting was there any reaction from those interviewing you to the fact that you weren't in a relationship at that stage no reaction that I determined myself
01:33:28 once you entered into a relationship did anyone from SDS management ever meet
01:33:39 anyone from SDS management ever meet your partner with a view to assessing or reviewing your suitability for the SS role I don't recall
01:33:53 no did anyone from SDS management speak to your partner about the logistics or the demands of the role that you were about to embark on there may have been a conversation at um social events but no formal meeting took place um with my then
01:34:17 partner did anyone offer being careful about names or to say did anyone offer to speak to your partner about your SDS role I
01:34:24 role I again I don't know if from that first meeting but very shortly after I think the offer was
01:34:39 made can you remember be being careful about names who offered to speak to your partner um no I
01:34:56 don't did you accept the offer uh no I didn't was was there any reason that you didn't think it was necessary I I just didn't think it was necessary
01:35:18 um again being careful about names please hm90 was anything said to you about the significance of having a family
01:35:20 family life uh for uh being an SDS under cover officer yes during the course of my time in the back
01:35:37 office careful with names can you remember who spoke to you about that um I think it was both at some point or another of the people who were at the first meeting so hn 109 and DCI Docker correct all
01:35:48 right can you remember what was said
01:36:01 only in in very general terms tell us in general terms 40 years later um it was that um by having a family background that provided if you like um a base to which I would need to go back to and
01:36:14 which I would need to go back to and that I wouldn't if you like go over to spend too much time that is an incredible amount of time and possibly even um go and start to spend too much
01:36:26 even um go and start to spend too much of my own time in the company of those I was
01:36:27 was deployed against oh was there any other reason why the importance of uh family life was
01:36:41 importance of uh family life was emphasized to you no it was just the around the stability of my own
01:36:50 deployment was anything said to you about the uh potential to
01:37:02 you about the uh potential to engage um in relationships with those uh within the groups into which you were being
01:37:06 being deployed there were conversations quite early on when I was in the back office about not getting too close uh to the to those around me um so that they didn't
01:37:22 those around me um so that they didn't start to have a call upon my day and my evening my night um but that at that stage were um it was about General relationships and acquaintances it was at that kind of
01:37:35 level just bear with me
01:37:45 please could I ask that we um look at MPS
01:37:47 MPS 07 uh
01:37:54 07 uh 3 uh 1 671 that's tab B4 of the hard copy
01:38:07 bundle thank you just give me a moment
01:38:21 please um this is a special demonstration Squad member um dated the 10th of October 1988 it's a confirmatory it appears memo of some recommendations that had
01:38:37 of some recommendations that had previously been made by uh DCI Docker in respect of STS Recruitment and the operation and dated I think about six
01:38:48 operation and dated I think about six months after you went into the STS back office uh and I just want to draw your attention to paragraph B please uh which states that single officers will be considered as recruits only in wholly exceptional circumstances and then only after prior
01:39:04 circumstances and then only after prior discussion with the relevant Squad Chief superintendent and Commander
01:39:13 operations does it follow um from that um h& uh
01:39:19 um h& uh 90 that the policy in relation to single candidates had changed uh Following on from the time of your recruitment that's correct that's my understanding
01:39:48 yes being careful about names and again others fields of deployment and if there's any uncertainty about names you can just write them down right um are you aware as to whether there was a
01:40:02 a reason uh why um the policy changed at that State at that stage yes I am I am aware of the reasoning
01:40:09 reasoning why I just take your time
01:40:21 HED um a problem had Arisen um regarding uh the deployment of Stefan Sanford scut and as a result of the events that took place around that time um I
01:40:35 took place around that time um I understand that the uh the PO the policy then was brought in because of the problems that that uh had Arisen around that officer and his
01:40:51 deployment and was that officer did you know whether that officer was married or unmarried um I understood him to be unmarried
01:41:03 what was your understanding of the expression single did it mean unmarried or did it mean not in a long-term relationship or did it mean not in a relationship at all or did it mean something else single to me would have been unmarried
01:41:25 thank
01:41:38 you whilst uh you were in the SDS back office and before you deployed again be careful about names please did anyone in SDS management
01:41:51 please did anyone in SDS management revisit the subject of your relationship or your marital status uh
01:42:04 yes now being careful about it can you remember who uh looked again into your relationship status um well I had an interview with um Commander
01:42:24 operations and in Broad terms C can you remember what that was what that was all about um he he he said um along the lines that um because of the problems that had Arisen he just needed to make
01:42:37 that had Arisen he just needed to make sure I was the right person um to go out into the field to be deployed um and it went into obviously my relationship was one part of it but also there was quite a bit of
01:42:49 also there was quite a bit of conversation where he was talking and to try and learn something more about me and my background so the conversation wasn't limited to just your relationship as no it wasn't just limited to
01:43:17 that now I think you told us um earlier that you'd pass your Sergeant's exam and I think it's right that by September 1988 you formally promoted to detect Ive Sergeant is that correct in September 1988
01:43:33 yes was it usual to reach that rank in the time that you did um within that unit and within special Branch generally no it
01:44:02 wasn't now if it assists you um hn9 um to refresh your memory um this is dealt with a page five paragraph 15 of your witness
01:44:06 witness statement and I just want to ask you about one thing you say there again
01:44:17 about one thing you say there again please be careful about names be careful about uh others field of um deployment um now you say uh your rapid promotion will an issue within the SDS in particular with the undercover officers and it made you
01:44:36 the undercover officers and it made you feel even more of an outsider do you see that yes I do yes um C can you explain what you meant by the fact that your quick promotion made you feel like an
01:44:44 outsider I think it was the norm that people that were on SDs had been in uh special Branch for some period of time
01:44:57 special Branch for some period of time um whereas my time was relatively short and within special Branch before going onto that
01:45:02 onto that unit and the um the promotion I had got was while I was on SDs so when I went out into the field I think I may be in only a few weeks and then I received my received a promotion were
01:45:14 promotion were you treated any differently by your colleagues um as a result of being to use your words an outsider um no I wasn't treated differently
01:45:29 um no I wasn't treated differently because of it but obviously it was a it was a talking point amongst them that this was slightly
01:45:37 unusual positive talking point negative talking point something else no just
01:45:49 observational did it give rise this uh talking about your promotion to any issue of concern to you um no it didn't it was what it was thank
01:46:11 you I just want to look into a little bit please um the um level of training uh that you did or didn't receive all right
01:46:32 was there a special Branch way or house style for the drafting of intelligence reports yes there
01:46:38 was did you learn how to draft intelligence reports whilst on special Branch but before joining the SDS that's correct
01:46:51 yeah when you join the SDS
01:47:09 um did you continue to write up reports in the same way or were you to write them up differently um the format was was uh different to what I'd been used used to um but generally no they were just expected to be you know good
01:47:24 expected to be you know good grammatical um English uh conveying the information accurately and
01:47:44 concisely just want to take you please to uh your uh part of your witness statement hn9 H page uh
01:47:58 27 uh paragraph 86 six please and I'm going to ask for this bit to be brought up on the screen so this is MPS 0748
01:48:05 94 uh and uh I think we need to go over the page thank you paragraph 86 and this is what you say about um report writing in your witness statement in general I use the same approach to
01:48:17 in general I use the same approach to reporting in the SDS as I had done in mainstream Metropolitan Police Branch I would only include in my drafts
01:48:28 would only include in my drafts information that I believed might have value and even then I have vague memories of being told that some of my
01:48:40 memories of being told that some of my early reports contain titl tattle of no value ultimately it was the DCI or di who was signing off on behalf of the chief superintendent so I accepted that they had editorial
01:48:51 control now does it follow from that that your approach to writing reports whilst on the SDS was to report any information that you believed might have some
01:49:02 might have some value that's correct
01:49:12 yeah being um careful about names again please C can you remember um who told you that some of your reports contained titl tattle
01:49:28 your reports contained titl tattle um I can't remember specifically but um I believe the the sergeants of the day who were doing a lot of the drafting out of the reports of what I had written and putting them into a format um I I
01:49:40 putting them into a format um I I received some feedback from them in in the terms of that's not really very
01:49:51 the terms of that's not really very important we could take that out so this is whilst you're on the SDS that's correct uh the back office Sergeant uh would sometimes come back to you on your reporting and and let you know when
01:50:03 reporting and and let you know when there was stuff of limited or no value within the report do I understand you correctly that's
01:50:14 correct um so by title tattle do do you mean little or no value yes I think I think that was what I would
01:50:27 mean did you get consistent feedback um throughout your deployment about the quality of your reporting generally yes I did
01:50:44 yes would feedback be uh formal or informal or the combination of the two um a combination of the
01:50:52 two and when would this normally occur would it occur for example when you attended the bi-weekly meetings of SDS officers it occurred then occasionally over the telephone if I was in telephone
01:51:10 contact and at what level were you receiving the feedback was it from DS's dis dcis combination combination of all of them if if necessary but GED tended to be the DS's because they actually
01:51:24 to be the DS's because they actually dealt with the the hard copy paperwork as it
01:51:37 were was feedback consistently positive or negative or a combination of both I I regard it as consistently
01:51:54 positive once you joined um the um special demonstration Squad did you have any uh training or undertake any training specific to the role or
01:52:06 training specific to the role or specific to uh conducting undercover work no no formal course or training
01:52:27 now for your benefit I think this is a page six of your witness statement paragraph um 18 no need to bring it up but uh I think you say there that preparation for deployment took the form of guidance from both
01:52:42 from both managers and undercover officers already in the field which was provided through regular meetings do you see that yes and by regular meetings are you referring to the bi-weekly meetings yes those meetings yeah
01:53:00 did those meetings uh include the to quote you round Robbins that uh you mention in your witness statement a a little later um yes yes that would include those as well as well as conversations with my
01:53:18 well as well as conversations with my managers and specifically the the uos who I know might be more experienced than I
01:53:27 so learning would come via round robins and conversations with individual or managers and contemporary officers is that fair yes
01:53:45 Fair could you just explain how the round Robins would would operate was it a a question of everybody going around the room and just updating everybody else as to what they'd been up to since you all to last together very much that um what you'd been doing um what was
01:53:56 um what you'd been doing um what was coming up on your diary as it were um and obviously your input around specific demonstrations should we say and others would contribute to what you knew or
01:54:08 would contribute to what you knew or would ask you questions for their own benefit um and sometimes often obviously there were uh other people's deployments had an interest in what I was doing in my deployment
01:54:28 can you remember whether the issue of um the potential for Intimate Relationships whilst in the field ever came up during those round Robins no I don't recall any occasion can you remember
01:54:49 occasion can you remember whether that topic ever came up during the bi-weekly meetings when you were discussing things with managers or fellow undercover officers no early on um obviously I was getting a a lot more attention from my managers uh
01:55:02 a lot more attention from my managers uh to see how I was getting along Etc there were conversations I've already said around how close um acquaintances you know should be um specifically to my
01:55:16 know should be um specifically to my deployment but they were all sort of in um I would say the relationships were about my knowledge of the person sociability those kinds of areas but there were was nothing that got into any kind of intimate Rel that was that was
01:55:28 kind of intimate Rel that was that was the other side of planet Venus as far as I was
01:55:33 concerned you talk um and you've told us a little bit already about the sort of thing that was said to you about um private lives of others at page 20 forgive me page 8
01:55:48 others at page 20 forgive me page 8 paragraph 23 of your witness statement for your for your reference
01:55:59 uh you talk about an implicit Line in the Sand be being drawn do you see that expression so paragraph 23 should be on page eight of your witness statement
01:56:11 your witness statement yeah what did you mean by a Line in the Sand
01:56:31 yeah I just think you didn't get too close to people that you started to um get anything more than the acquaintance or the the Friendship if that's the
01:56:45 or the the Friendship if that's the right word that you that you needed to do and obviously in terms of close Intimate
01:56:47 Intimate Relationships um that was just just off Li limits as far as I was concerned and bearing in mind as well I obviously was in a a relationship not yet married at
01:57:05 in a a relationship not yet married at that time um and I wasn't going to sort of um you know I had I had an intimate relationship there was no place for anything um you know at a work
01:57:17 level now I know you've told us that this topic wasn't discussed in in terms but did you get the impression given that you were spoken to about um how you should conduct yourself with
01:57:28 how you should conduct yourself with others did you get the impression that your managers were alive to the risk of the
01:57:33 the possibility of a sexual encounter or relationship taking place yes I'm sure that they were yes very much a risk to
01:57:47 um to me
01:57:58 for your benefit at page seven of your witness statement paragraph
01:58:09 19 you mention in your witness statement that there was a loose leaf file of tips available uh where some officers would note down what they found useful did do you see that yes yes can you remember where where that
01:58:24 yes can you remember where where that was kept was that kept at one of the the flat or one of the or the back office I remember reading it in the back
01:58:31 office can you remember whether you consulted this file um whilst preparing for your deployment yes very much so
01:58:42 yes can you remember whether you consulted it during your deployment I don't believe I saw it after I'd been deployed to the field no
01:58:56 can you being careful about it please h90
01:59:09 you being careful about it please h90 but can you recollect any of the content for example did it address the use of a deceased child's identity for example yes it
01:59:10 yes it did did it address
01:59:18 address um creating a legend or a cover identity yes it did
01:59:26 did it address the possibility of advances or
01:59:32 relationships I don't recall seeing anything on that nature
01:59:43 no did you find the um file or the tips within the file to be uh useful yes I
01:59:51 did did you add to the folder at any
01:59:56 stage I don't recall doing so
02:00:13 now page nine of your statement for your benefit uh paragraph
02:00:25 28 I think you say that as a group um you try to identify um learning points do you see that yes yeah now the process of identifying learning points was that something that occurred during the the bi-weekly meetings um I think it could Arise at
02:00:38 meetings um I think it could Arise at any time really whether it was casual conversations with people or a more open forum and when you say as a group is
02:00:53 forum and when you say as a group is that just the undercover officers or did that extend to the management as well management as
02:01:06 well can you remember if there was any formal process um for recording any learning points that
02:01:13 arose I don't recall any formal procedure to report
02:01:22 no does it follow that what you're referring to discussions there was discussions really yes and can you remember whether during these
02:01:30 these discussions uh the issue of sexual relationships sexual advances was Ever Raised I can't I don't recall any being raised
02:01:42 raised no
02:01:58 thanks were you ever arrested in relation to any activity uh that you were involved in whilst you were deployed no
02:02:08 none was anything uh said to you by your managers about whether it was permissible to engage in criminal conduct uh whilst you were deployed um there were certain things that we just simply um knew we have to
02:02:26 that we just simply um knew we have to try we have to break the law and it was near in my case in my deployment was nearly always around fly
02:02:35 posting right we'll come on to that a little later
02:02:46 little later on um so typically in the field that you in fly posting uh was a risk is that right uh yes it was it was a risk and what were you told about um how far you could go in relation to to that
02:03:01 activity well just simply that I you know you I would have to take part in that in other words everyone who was amongst my grouping that was very much a bread and butter butter
02:03:14 bread and butter butter activity um and so it was accepted that I would go and I would fly post and I would
02:03:19 would have you know uh brush in hand and paper in the other
02:03:34 um was um advice or guidance about uh criminal conduct um whilst deployed was that in relation to you limited to that issue of fly posting or were you given any any general
02:03:46 any any general advice
02:03:54 advice um no I mean all I remember was that you know if you were going to go into areas of criminality then that had to be discussed with the management to see what that was and the nature of it if you knew it was coming up you'd have to discuss it with managers I would be
02:04:10 discuss it with managers I would be expected to yes and can you remember whether uh there were any occasions where uh you gave your managers advanced warning of the fact that you were going to be out fly posting or anything like that yes I would always give them notice of that
02:04:25 of that were there times um where you weren't able to give notice um no I don't no
02:04:36 notice um no I don't no no if a situation arose where you were taken by surprise and felt you had to engage in that sort of activity what would the practice have been as regards informing your managers after the
02:04:45 after the event well just simply that I I would have carried out the activity with the others um and then at the earliest opportunity would have said what I'd been
02:05:01 been doing and where would that feature in an intelligence report or or would it just be you orally updating them how would that work well I would put in a phone call to say look I've been out doing
02:05:12 call to say look I've been out doing this and I've been doing that that's it it was just informing them what I've been up
02:05:18 to now can you remember what you were supposed to do if you were arrested
02:05:30 um the main thing really was not to disclose your uh true identity to maintain cover to maintain
02:05:43 cover was anything ever said to you about appearing in court in your cover identity no it no
02:05:54 does it follow that had you been arrested and charged with a criminal offense let's say arising out of fly
02:06:05 offense let's say arising out of fly posting you'd have had to have gone back to your superiors to discuss with them the next steps exactly that
02:06:22 yes and is it um did I understand uh um you correctly a little earlier did you engage in fly in fly posting yes I did you said po did you say potum brush in hand basically yes brush in hand and
02:06:34 hand basically yes brush in hand and paper in the other and I was posting things up on see you know can you remember forgive me I interrupted you sorry no
02:06:41 sorry no sorry can you remember how often that would H that happen during your
02:06:51 deployment maybe once or twice a month uh sometimes it would be three or four times in a week because there was particular um large demonstration coming up in London shall we say other times it would just be advertising
02:07:06 meetings it could come in fits and starts I
02:07:14 starts I suppose did you ever suggest putting up posters to members of groups that you were no I
02:07:23 didn't if San event was um as you said major event was coming up and you were discussing it uh with within a group in which you were deployed was was there a reason why you steered away from saying well let's
02:07:40 steered away from saying well let's let's let's fly post that let's let's start a campaign so everyone gets to know about it no I I there was no specific reason it was more a case of I didn't need to S to suggest because
02:07:51 didn't need to S to suggest because there were others who were shall we say um you know had been um members of the group and up to their activities for a considerable length of time and they
02:08:03 considerable length of time and they just simply stepped up and took the lead so um there wasn't any uh lack of volunteers to do
02:08:19 it how did your managers react when you advised them that you were going out fly posting well it was just to be noted um that was it really
02:08:28 were you given any advice or guidance as to how far you could go in relation to criminal activity um I can't I can't recall specific but I think all of us as UC
02:08:40 specific but I think all of us as UC officers knew that um you know there would be different obviously different levels of criminality and what I was engaged in was really very much a lower
02:08:54 engaged in was really very much a lower level um and I couldn't foresee getting into um anything deeper at that stage had that been the case then obviously I would have consulted straight away with
02:09:09 managers now I think you've already um told us that you were uh given some guidance on how far you could involve yourself and the private lives of others is that right um yes and yes
02:09:29 and um you've told us um that there was never any explicit discussion with anyone do I understand you correctly explicit discussion with anyone about the potential for a sexual encounter or
02:09:42 the potential for a sexual encounter or relationship and how to manage that no I don't recall specific um about sexual encounters or sexual um relationships or even approaching those things the conversations were always about uh the
02:09:59 conversations were always about uh the depth of my acquaintance or friendship if that's the right word that was the extent of
02:10:04 it do you consider that there was any conceivable justification for an undercover officer entering into a sexual relationship with a member of their target group whilst
02:10:17 a member of their target group whilst deployed no I I don't personally know
02:10:26 what in your view would be the problem with that
02:10:27 with that occurring well obviously the impact upon others lives um you know of a particular um uh particularly private aspect of
02:10:43 um uh particularly private aspect of somebody's life um the other problems of course is it would you it would engage the UC officer into a a relationship of which he wouldn't be or she wouldn't be properly in control of of the your activities and
02:10:56 control of of the your activities and the home life that you had to go to um at the your end of your working day as it were so I think the the impact was
02:11:07 it were so I think the the impact was both on the um the person with whom that sexual Rel you know was is being uh suggested um but also upon the impact upon your own family and your own self
02:11:37 at the time of your uh deployment um so far as you are aware and I appreciate that your evidence as far as that this is a topic that wasn't really spoken about but um were you aware of any attitude
02:11:56 um were you aware of any attitude uh by your undercover colleagues to the possibility of engaging in a sexual encounter or relationship I I don't recall conversations on the matters really
02:12:10 don't if I ask the same question about your managers can you assist did they did you get any impression as to what their attitude might be to something like that um
02:12:24 might be to something like that um well I I I get the impression it was something to be avoided at all costs that would have been their attitude I would have
02:12:34 expected was just not to be
02:12:45 done was there any gossip about anybody um engaging sexual encounters or relationships whilst in the field during your time on the SC no I don't recall
02:13:07 any Your Service as an SDS undercover officer overlapped with that of John dyes Andy Kohl's Bob Lander officer that we know in the inquiry by the cipher hn1 hn
02:13:22 hn1 hn 87 and uh Trevor Morris amongst others now if you want to just refresh your memory be careful about names please you can look up hn1 hn 87 just remind yourself as to who they
02:13:35 yourself as to who they were yes my my deployment overlapped with
02:13:41 with them and um other than Andy koh's all of those former undercover officers have accepted either being engaged in a
02:13:52 accepted either being engaged in a sexual relationship or having had sexual encounter whilst deployed at e that I I was aware of some of those names and I think um Andy Cole's subject of an allegation that he had a sexual relationship but doesn't make any admission in relation to that are you
02:14:06 admission in relation to that are you aware of his position or or not not not exactly
02:14:17 no whilst on the SDS were you aware of any of your contemporaries having been involved in sexual relationship ship or Encounters in their cover identities whilst deployed
02:14:41 no now hn9 these aren't just one or two examples
02:14:47 examples but a number of your contemporaries and colleagues who engage in this sort of conduct are you sure that this sort of activity was not known about uh by you I'm certain are you sure or can you
02:15:00 I'm certain are you sure or can you assist whether this sort of activity was known about by others within the unit no I wasn't I wasn't aware of any of this activity or um or
02:15:11 activity or um or even even hints of it by others you told us that the impression that you got that your managers would have been aive to the risk of the possibility of uh sexual engagement
02:15:26 possibility of uh sexual engagement whilst in the field is that right yes I'm so certain they would have been is it fair to say that the the risks of sending men alone into the field was probably
02:15:37 field was probably obvious uh
02:15:54 yes now I think in your uh witness statement you explain um that that you became aware of some of your former colleagues um relationships or encounters when stories broke in the press or uh when you were told about
02:16:06 press or uh when you were told about them in the process of engaging with the inquiry is that right that's right yes the Press
02:16:13 reporting how do you feel about the fact that amongst those that you served with there were undercover officers who had sexual encounters or entered into sexual relationships with members of the public whilst
02:16:29 public whilst deployed um well complete shock frankly um it was
02:16:35 um it was the Sunday Times article I read and that was the first inkling I got of anything um it was quite an in-depth article and I just well at first I just sort of couldn't believe what I was reading
02:16:46 couldn't believe what I was reading especially as I had been uh deployed at the same time as some of them
02:16:57 how do you feel about the fact that this conduct
02:16:58 conduct occurred under the aaces of the SDS and and doesn't seem to have been controlled or prevented by the
02:17:10 SDS well yes um it's a complete well as I said I can only repeat that word but a complete shock and I think the I think it was uh um not
02:17:29 it was uh um not um I was just hugely disappointed that our unit was now being U tainted by these re you know by these activities that's the word I think I would say you know just felt AB I felt personally tainted um because I'd been on that unit
02:17:44 tainted um because I'd been on that unit and that's what some of the officers had at that time allegedly been done but obviously as time has progressed more reporting has confirmed it so you felt personally tainted yeah I did yes what
02:18:03 personally tainted yeah I did yes what about the women affected do you have any view in relation to them well I I can't imagine you know um the devastation it must have been to think that uh you'd obviously been in an intimate relationship um let alone a sexual one but even an intimate relationship a close intimate relationship um would
02:18:16 close intimate relationship um would have upon them um and especially as we now know there's obviously um uh you know birth in the case of one
02:18:26 now moving on to that one Bob Lambert um I just want to ask you about something you said I'm not going to bring the document up but um if you need it for assistance just say so and I will but for for the record uh MPS 07 21977 at
02:18:42 for for the record uh MPS 07 21977 at b47 of the hard copy bundle uh and you were interviewed by um officers from operation Hearn do you remember that yes I do back in uh January 2014 do you
02:18:53 I do back in uh January 2014 do you remember yes I do operation Hearn being the police's investigation into uh the
02:19:04 the police's investigation into uh the SDS is that right that's correct and do you remember uh during the course of that
02:19:09 that interview uh saying that management was wrapped around um Bob Lambert and we quite often sit down with him after the main meeting and be seen in discussion with him yes I remember that yes
02:19:21 with him yes I remember that yes can you explain what you mean by management being wrapped around Bob Lambert well we would have those round robin meetings as i' explained where you pretty much put onto the table what you were doing what you've been up to uh
02:19:36 were doing what you've been up to uh what you proposed to do um and after that those meetings occasionally an officer would be taken into a side room by one maybe two of uh the managers um for some further discussion
02:19:50 managers um for some further discussion should we say that perhaps didn't affect anyone else um and it may have been things that perhaps we shouldn't have been party to like deployments around specific organizations um and at that time I felt
02:20:07 organizations um and at that time I felt that um at least it was noticeable to me that really every one of those meetings for possibly a couple of weeks um you know Bob Lambert was in Long discussions long after the the general run robbing
02:20:19 long after the the general run robbing should we say the more open part of the meeting did did you get the impression that management were particularly close to Bob
02:20:30 to Bob Lambert I I yes I think I I think they were very close today activities yeah that's what I
02:20:35 felt can I ask you be shown a document it's
02:20:37 it's ucpi
02:20:43 ucpi 19959 1 19959 which is at c162 of the hard copy bundle
02:21:04 now this is an intelligence report that um details uh an swp week-long event called Marxism 92 and we'll get to the fact that you were deployed into the swp in due course all
02:21:13 all right um can I ask that the uh we turn up uh page 34 please so straight to page 3
02:21:41 before and this is part of a list of individuals that were identified at that s swp
02:21:44 s swp event and one of those individuals is recorded there as B which is an inquiry Cipher all right so please be careful
02:21:56 Cipher all right so please be careful about names please make sure you don't um utter the the real
02:22:05 name you were reminded uh this morning I think
02:22:10 think of two names that be was known by do you remember being reminded yes I
02:22:17 do um can do you have any recollection of be no none whatsoever
02:22:35 can you remember whether she was particularly on your radar at this stage uh no not at
02:22:47 all now B was um by the time of this report a woman that your colleague Trevor Morris had commenced a sexual relationship with
02:22:58 relationship with with were you aware of this at the time no I wasn't
02:23:10 no sir is that a convenient moment yes certainly we'll break now for 15 minutes to enable the transcriber to have
02:23:19 rest
02:38:48 e e
02:39:42 hn9 before the break I was asking you about the subject of sexual relationships and something um I think you told us was that you
02:39:47 that you were uh conscious or aware that your managers were aware that there was a risk to you of of of this of this being a
02:40:00 possibility H how are you aware that there was a risk to you not specifically to me but to us as officers
02:40:20 um you told us that um you weren't exactly sure of Andy Kohl's uh position in relation to the allegation that he had a sexual relationship whilst
02:40:31 relationship whilst undercover what do you mean by um not exactly well I don't know what the even now I don't know what the uh what the reporting is regarding
02:40:42 reporting is regarding him by reporting do you mean press reporting yes you know I don't know what the situation is with him I see
02:41:00 and you told us that your impression was that relationships were to be avoided at all
02:41:01 all costs what gave you that impression because the conversation I'd been having about um fieldcraft as it were was the relationship between you
02:41:17 were was the relationship between you and the people you were deployed against if I can use that word against but it was that relationship and how close you would become in terms of what strayed into Beyond an acquaintanceship and became a friendship uh to the point should we say where
02:41:35 uh to the point should we say where perhaps you might be invited into a home somebody's home so the I so for me in those
02:41:39 those conversations a an intimate or a sexual relationship was just so far down the line that we we weren't discussing that specifically because it was just beyond
02:41:51 specifically because it was just beyond you know what where I was trying to find that Line in the Sand I see now did you receive any guidance or training whilst on the STS on Racial equality or racism I I don't recall any but during
02:42:07 racism I I don't recall any but during the Metropolitan Police uh during that time within the Metropol police there was material going around and I would have received some of that I'm sure as packages coming out for the weekly bi-weekly meetings is that written material uh yes yes written packages
02:42:24 material uh yes yes written packages yeah uh did you witness or hear about any racist or racially discrimin discriminat conduct while serving on the SDS or with special Branch or or or with the police I don't recall any but I'm
02:42:35 the police I don't recall any but I'm sure that some of it now especially in the the way that times have changed I'm
02:42:49 the the way that times have changed I'm sure some of it now would be regarded as um you know racist material yet racist talk yes but not at the time person say did you see anything or hear anything that you think would be
02:43:02 anything that you think would be regarded now as racist talk as you term it no I can't I can't think of any um any incidents at all your service um overlapped with um a black officer Trevor
02:43:18 black officer Trevor Morris were you aware of any issues in relation to ra race that involved him within the SD yes no I
02:43:26 wasn't just want your um ask that your witness statement be put up please uh should be page 10 paragraph 30
02:43:40 please uh should be page 10 paragraph 30 it'll be your page nine um h& 90 I think page all right page N9 paragraph 30 please just want to just look at what you said there you say I'm asked whether I experience any racism within the SDS mpsb or PS during my time as a UCO it is
02:43:57 my time as a UCO it is important for the inquiry to understand that the context now is very different from the 1980s there was nothing that stood out to me by the standards of that time as either Behavior or language that needed to be challenged whether it was directed at me or otherwise that was certainly true in the SDS the same is
02:44:09 certainly true in the SDS the same is true of the remainder of the MPS as a whole but as I actively avoided contact with mpsb and uniform officers during my deployment I have very little base this
02:44:22 deployment I have very little base this conclusion on even with hindsight I was not aware of any inherit
02:44:28 unfairness now you say in your witness statement that it's important for the inquiry to understand that the context now is very different to the
02:44:44 1980s why did you feel the need to say that in effect it was a different time in the context of addressing racism within the police in your witness statement well I think it's just that it was a different time everything from what you saw on television what you might read in the media um and I'm
02:44:58 might read in the media um and I'm certain within the Police Service itself um and I'm sure SDS was no different to that but if you ask me to sort of relate any specific incidents that I can remember then no I
02:45:11 remember then no I can't are you sure you didn't observe or or or hear about any racist conduct or behavior whilst you were serving I I'm I don't recall any but I'm sure I am sure that there would have been something
02:45:22 that there would have been something which we would now say this is this is racist and does that apply to the SDS I would say so
02:45:37 yes did you receive any guidance or training about sex discrimination or gender equality whilst on the SDS again I can't recall any but I would expect to have perhaps seen written material
02:45:53 have perhaps seen written material akin to the racism question you asked me earlier can I ask at your witness statement uh this time page 10 paragraph 32
02:46:13 please uh and you say uh during this period I did not recall experiencing any sexism or gender bias in my time it was rare to have female officers on the unit I cannot rule out the Poss possibility that there may have been some sexist comments during conversations amongst among officers but this was not common
02:46:25 among officers but this was not common place and there was nothing that caused me or anyone else to complain that I can recall the female UC were robust individuals uh who would not have
02:46:36 individuals uh who would not have hesitated to call out behavior that they did not
02:46:38 did not appreciate now what makes you um unable uh to rule out the possibility that there may have been some sexist comments made during your time
02:46:51 comments made during your time I I think it goes for the same as the as the racism you know it was of a different time and again things that were acceptable on television or the media now would not be uh sorry then
02:47:03 media now would not be uh sorry then would not be acceptable now so it's more my conjecture really just thinking back to those times being different did the fact that as you say it was rare to have female female
02:47:18 it was rare to have female female officers on the unit lend itself to an environment where male officers could engage in sexist conduct or behavior without any judgment or consequence I think that might might be the case
02:47:24 the case yes not having females there
02:47:35 yeah did you witness or hear about any sexist conduct or behavior while serving uh in the police force special Branch or SDS I don't recall
02:47:53 any are you sure given that you're unable to rule it out I I'm unable to rule it out yes I don't rule it out at all but I
02:48:04 yes I don't rule it out at all but I can't I can't recall conversations of that time that would now in today's context make me think yes that was completely
02:48:09 wrong now in building your Legend in preparation to deploy um under cover you use the name of a deceased child is that right that's correct yes you took on the cover name of Mark kerrier is that correct that's correct and for your
02:48:26 correct that's correct and for your benefit it's at Pages 10 to 11 paragraph 5 in your witness statement you explained that you attended St Katherine's house the the register of births and deaths in order to research an appropriate identity is that right that's correct yeah now again being careful about names
02:48:42 yeah now again being careful about names fields of deployment of those you worked with was the use of a deceased child's identity your own idea or was the tax I one that was suggested to you or that you were instructed to use it was one
02:48:57 you were instructed to use it was one that had um been used for many years and uh one that was considered um the the pathway um because they were there was very little choice to um when I say very little it would be along the same lines
02:49:12 little it would be along the same lines perhaps of a birth divate in an embassy or abroad but basically you had to get somebody's identity uh to to withstand screw scrutiny over the period of time that I was
02:49:23 that I was deployed why do you say there was there was little alternative to the um deceased CH deceased child tactic being used well I don't I don't know of another way that you can take an identity um um for it to withstand
02:49:38 identity um um for it to withstand scrutiny if somebody starts to look into your
02:49:42 your Legend um you know they've got to be able to find a record of your birth
02:49:54 now you explain at uh paragraph 36 page 11 of your witness statement for your benefit that you looked into the circumstances of the child's death in order to
02:49:59 order to ensure that it hadn't attracted a lot of publicity looked at local newspapers for any press reporting into the death and looked into the circumstances of the child's family is that
02:50:12 child's family is that right yes um yes some information was on the birth certificate itself as I recall um and I I do recall I don't know I
02:50:25 um and I I do recall I don't know I can't I can't think exactly where I got it from but I remember trying to look at um the area that this incident had happened to see if there was any press reporting so you're looking for local
02:50:37 reporting so you're looking for local press reporting local press reporting
02:50:49 yeah and just take take care with your answer to this question if you need to to um can you remember how you looked into the circumstances of the child's family can you remember what sort of inquiries you made it was through
02:51:05 made it was through um births marriages deaths research further research at um the um then it was St Katherine's house publicly available information publicly available documents
02:51:20 publicly available documents yeah page 15 for your uh benefit of your witness statement paragraphs 51 to 52 you tell us that you also went to the area of farum or olders shot which was
02:51:32 area of farum or olders shot which was the area on the birth certificate of the deceased child whose identity you
02:51:42 used was going to the area a task that you undertook of your own valtion or was it something you were advised or instructed to do advised to do being
02:51:53 instructed to do advised to do being careful about names can you remember who advised you no not specifically can you remember if it was another UC or or someone in management no no it would have been When I Was preparing my Legend uh so does it follow from that
02:52:05 Legend uh so does it follow from that that that would have been somebody in management uh yes why did you visit the area of the child's
02:52:12 child's birth it was so simply so I could familiarize myself with the locality
02:52:27 familiarize myself with the locality um so if at some point I should be asked on where I was born Etc then I would at least be able to describe something of uh you know where I'd been born and brought up how much time did you spend there
02:52:42 there um I I certainly recall one day um I may have gone down for a second day I can't but I'm not certain of that did you ascertain the address of
02:52:58 that did you ascertain the address of any any family members of the child yeah uh yes I did did you go there I went to the area yes did you go to the address yes
02:53:05 yes in the sense that I went into the street and I was in a
02:53:15 vehicle was your uh visit um something you did uh without informing anyone else or were your managers aware no they were aware of where I was going did you tell
02:53:27 aware of where I was going did you tell them in advance yes and did they approve of the research that you undertaking
02:53:44 yes now you also say in your witness statement that the SDS office might have spoken to SAR special branch in advance to determine if the family of the deceased
02:53:45 deceased child had come to the notice of the local constabulary or S special Branch may have made checks of their own records why do you think that the
02:53:58 records why do you think that the regional special Branch might have been involved in this process it's conjecture on my part when I was uh interviewed for this I would I seem to recall that's the kind of activity that would have gone on in in
02:54:14 activity that would have gone on in in uh in my back office as well they would have helped out on certain things and made those phone calls perhaps in some guys or another were you aware of those sorts of inquiries being undertaken in relation to anyone else no I wasn't but my
02:54:28 to anyone else no I wasn't but my conjecture would be if the officer required it then if it was appropriate then that would have been done in your experience was it normal for a a regional special
02:54:39 was it normal for a a regional special Branch to be T ask to make inquiries of a child's family in this way um I don't know I have no idea
02:54:53 being careful about names please um was there any particular individual who would be responsible for liasing with regional special Branch or making the requests of them it would have been the
02:55:05 requests of them it would have been the uh Management in back office so again it may have been the sergeant so I should imagine but it's again conjecture on my part are you able to assist with this
02:55:17 part are you able to assist with this that if such inquiries were made would the region special Branch be informed that the reason for such inquiries was to assess the suitability of a deceased child's identity for later
02:55:36 child's identity for later use i w i i don't know what was said how it was done um I would imagine it would not have been said in um explicit
02:55:48 terms were any steps taken by you or your managers to ensure that any intrusion into the family as a result of inquiries being
02:56:05 inquiries being made in support of your Legend were kept to what was necessary or to a minimum I I didn't know what about your managers do you know if they I don't know what was done because I don't know specifically what they did for me and how they did
02:56:19 it at the time that you were creating your Legend did you consider any impact that the use of the identity may have had on the child's family yes I did yeah did you consider that impact might
02:56:35 be well obviously the emotional aspect of um the child's identity having been used either with or without their consent um both aspects um I I would
02:56:48 consent um both aspects um I I would imagine it would be distressing for them had they come to know of it did you
02:56:53 did you consider whether there was any risk to the uh deceased child's family as a result of you using the identity yes I did yes what did you consider the risk might be or risks well I I thought it was
02:57:10 was um just so unlikely um that they would ever get to know that I had used that identity because there were so few connections with my Legend it was really the date of birth the place of birth were the only connections and only input into my Legend um and I didn't regard it
02:57:23 into my Legend um and I didn't regard it as um something that would ever happened
02:57:34 frankly did you consider the possibility about you being found out or or compromised and what might happen to the family if activists researched and
02:57:47 family if activists researched and tracked them down did you ever consider that possible impact no I
02:58:06 didn't given that there were some impacts that did cross your mind in relation to the family of the deceased
02:58:13 child why did you proceed with the use of the
02:58:24 identity sorry why could you repeat the question given that you accept there may have been some emotional uh impact uh on the family or there may have been some risk why did you proceed with the use of the oh proceed child's identity because I think the risk was absolutely so small
02:58:37 think the risk was absolutely so small um and as I said to my own mind it was something that would never happen they that they would find out the child's
02:58:48 that they would find out the child's identity had being used in this way and on the other side of the balance I had obviously um my identity my Legend to protect and as I saw it it was the and was common practice for all and many
02:59:03 was common practice for all and many before me that that was the only way you could do it was by taking an identity that's already in the registers was there any reason that you or did you consider trying to work out whether there are any viable alternatives to this tactic I I didn't no was there any
02:59:19 this tactic I I didn't no was there any reason why you didn't well I just think everyone thought there is no other
02:59:26 way at the time were you comfortable with the use of this tactic um I I was after I considered to
02:59:37 tactic um I I was after I considered to myself that namely the risk if you like of uh the family finding out was just negligible it just wouldn't happen at that point then yes I was comfortable with it does that follow that there was a time where you were not comfortable
02:59:52 a time where you were not comfortable with it no there wasn't a time when I wasn't comfortable with it it's just that there there was that question in my mind what if and then I considered well what are the chances then where are we on on the scale of
03:00:14 risk did you ever challenge your managers about the use of the tactic and suggest that there may be or they look into viable Alternatives no I didn't suggest that at all it was accepted by me and I believe colleagues around me that this was the only way to do
03:00:31 that this was the only way to do it looking back how do you feel now about the use of the identity of a deceased
03:00:44 child on retrospect um well it's because now we have an inquiry um you know and the the information what has come to light in the Years Gone by um then obviously I don't feel good about it um I don't know if the family if any
03:01:03 it um I don't know if the family if any remain have had any knowledge of this at all um but um but it's only in retrospect at the time I felt comfortable with it did your managers undertake any due diligence or testing of your cover
03:01:15 diligence or testing of your cover identity to see if it would withstand SC scrutiny this was done really as I'm building building my Legend I discussed where I am you know and they then suggest other other things that can be done to support because obviously a
03:01:31 done to support because obviously a single inquiry to a register um might not be the route taken but somebody might wishing to check me go into shall
03:01:42 might wishing to check me go into shall we say um other other government records and start looking for me elsewhere depending on their access do you know whether other than that they made their own independent inquiries of um the identity to satisfy themselves as to whether uh it was a
03:01:55 themselves as to whether uh it was a viable one or not no I don't think so
03:02:10 no um now I think you addressed this for your benefit at page 16 paragraph 56 of your witness statement but it's right that part of your work in the SS back office included helping with intelligence reports that were prepared by undercover officers is that right that's
03:02:26 that right that's correct um and as a result of this role did you come to understand who the consumers of in SDS intelligence were yes I
03:02:33 yes I did where were reports going there were two main areas of business one was to Metropolitan Police Special Branch for dissemination to the
03:02:48 Special Branch for dissemination to the relevant squads there uh and the second main customer was um the security service who um had overall editor editorial control of the reports that
03:03:02 editorial control of the reports that you were producing um it would have been the the
03:03:03 the the management of uh
03:03:14 SDS would they alter or amend uh reports um I'm Pro I'm sure they would have done um and I think that comes from my knowledge where earlier you referred
03:03:26 my knowledge where earlier you referred to my reports containing title tattle so sometimes that was taken out and I'd be told about it can you think of any other examples of how an intelligence report or how intelligence provided by you may not uh
03:03:39 intelligence provided by you may not uh may not appear uh in the same way in its final
03:03:40 final form um no I'm no I'm not well other than possibly telephone uh conversations between the customer and the back
03:03:58 office um were you paid overtime in your role as an SS undercover officer yes I was did overtime make any difference to your pay yes it was substantial was anything said to you
03:04:16 substantial was anything said to you about opportunities to work over time uh during your recruitment into the SDS during my um
03:04:22 um no it was said that obviously I'd be working extremely long hours um for which overtime would be paid um but I didn't go into the impact that it would have upon my um you know my final
03:04:34 have upon my um you know my final salaries and uh my monthly pay did anyone ever suggest you that you'd be better off financially as an SDS UCO than you were uh as you had been
03:04:50 UCO than you were uh as you had been before um well yes at at the initial meeting um where I was spoken to by um Mr Docker and hn 109 it was noted to me
03:05:03 Mr Docker and hn 109 it was noted to me there um that obviously the the overtime would be substantial and the requirement upon my time was going to be substantial and it wouldn't be a case if i' pass it
03:05:18 and it wouldn't be a case if i' pass it pass the work on to somebody else so it would be a case of if it needed to be done I'd be expected to do it was the opportunity to to earn over time or the potential for increased earnings was that something that
03:05:29 earnings was that something that attracted you to the undercover role uh no it
03:05:35 wasn't were you aware whether any other undercover officers took into account the potential to earn more when deciding whether to take the
03:05:46 take the role uh no I don't it was the it was the the nature of the work that always
03:05:54 appealed do you say are you saying that applied to your contemporaries as well as yourself I think so yes never heard anyone talk about how much better off they were oh well yes we were all better off we knew that and you
03:06:10 were all better off we knew that and you know so we knew we knew that we were far better off but to me I don't think I ever came across somebody that was motivated by it I see because I think the impact upon your personal lives and your career was uh was frankly not worth the money for however long you were
03:06:22 the money for however long you were deployed now during your deployment I think a cap on over time was imposed is that right that's correct yeah what was the reaction to that uh the reaction of the forgive me
03:06:35 that uh the reaction of the forgive me reaction of the undercover officers yes yeah
03:06:40 yeah um well I think it wasn't a disappointment at um uh the money as it were capping the money I think it was the dis appointment
03:06:51 money I think it was the dis appointment that perhaps um we were going to have to some somehow sort of work our work our jobs and our deployment to fit into um an overtime cap rather than do things as we felt were
03:07:06 we felt were necessary did the cap affect the morale of the undercover officers that were deployed at the time um I think affecting the morale probably is going too far what impact did it have then I I think people were cheesed off if I can put it that to them
03:07:29 and are you aware as to whether the cap had any impact on recruitment or adverse impact on recruitment into the SDS I'm not aware of that now did it have any impact on your productivity whilst in the field uh it
03:07:48 productivity whilst in the field uh it it didn't to me no did you ever work to constrained hours because of the cap um I think there may have been uh occasions where obviously I was working more than
03:07:54 more than the than the cap allowed but um there we are do you know if um this
03:08:06 um there we are do you know if um this change impacted on the productivity of anyone else I'm not aware of it
03:08:15 no was anything said to you uh by management about uh keeping things keeping productivity as it was uh following this change no I think um you know people
03:08:31 change no I think um you know people produced what they could produce they it didn't to my knowledge impact upon
03:08:44 that now um for your benefit this is at Pages 17 to 18 of your witness statement paragraphs 15 9 to 60 again being careful about names uh please
03:08:55 careful about names uh please hn9 can you remember who was responsible for your initial tasking before you
03:09:05 deployed well it was a combination of um Mr Docker and hn
03:09:14 109 was there a specific group that you were lined up to infiltrate there was yes and that group was please
03:09:29 there was yes and that group was please well it was the Revolutionary communist group via the city of London anti- aparte
03:09:34 group do you know why the Revolutionary Comm communist group was chosen for you I understand that that would have been conversation between um special branch and the security service
03:09:53 what what was your understanding of the nature of the group before you deployed um I saw them as a revolutionary um revolutionary communist uh group well sorry by the very nature
03:10:08 uh group well sorry by the very nature of its name they did what it said on the tin it does what it says on the tin and I regarded them you know what I'd learned is that they were a subversive organization um who were out to
03:10:19 organization um who were out to infiltrate um um unions government anyway which they could to bring around well the fall of of democratic process as we know it what was your understanding of of
03:10:36 it what was your understanding of of subversive subversive yes um subversion rather subversion um it's it's act subversion is the activity to bring about an undemocratic change in
03:10:50 about an undemocratic change in government did you have any training or guidance of the topic of subversion before you deployed dur during my time on my previous uh deployment my Sorry my
03:11:01 previous uh deployment my Sorry my previous Squad before joining special demonstration Squad I got that information from not whilst on the special dation Squad yeah and you told
03:11:12 special dation Squad yeah and you told us that the infiltration was uh due to be via the city of London anti aathi group is that right that's correct yeah
03:11:25 um why were why was it considered uh that you were unable to uh Infiltrate The rcg the Revolutionary communist group directly um because they were a very closed uh tight group um they used cover names amongst
03:11:36 cover names amongst themselves um and easy access such as walking up and saying I'd like to join was not the way that you could get into that group
03:11:47 could get into that group whereas the city of lond anti aarta group was very much a front organization as we regarded it at the time um of the Revolutionary communist group and so
03:12:00 Revolutionary communist group and so access to something at a lower level which was all public order related um around the anti-apartheid long-term protest outside South Africa house in relation to particularly the imprisonment of n Nelson Mandela to
03:12:15 imprisonment of n Nelson Mandela to involve myself there might if you like get me Talent spotted or in time um approach to join uh the Revolutionary communist group Talent spotted you mean
03:12:26 communist group Talent spotted you mean by the group by the group yeah all right well we'll talk about the um public order implications of the city of London anti- apathy group or clag I'll call them short hand in due
03:12:41 them short hand in due course um but I think you uh it's right you say in terms in your witness statement as uh paragraph um 63 uh which is at page um 18 you deployed into the field in September 1988 is that
03:12:57 into the field in September 1988 is that right that's right can we look at please document ucpi
03:13:01 31259 which is at C1 of the hard copy
03:13:20 bundle this is one of your earliest intelligence reports and we can see from paragraph two that it uh relates to the opening of something called the Pathfinder Bookshop in the se1 postal area of
03:13:31 area of London uh could you uh explain please as to how you came to be reporting on the opening of this Bookshop um in the early stages of my deployment
03:13:43 deployment um it it would have done well for me to have uh got experience of mixing with other groups even though they weren't my target group ultimately um and if you like to get onto the scene as it were if you life of extreme um and left extreme
03:13:57 you life of extreme um and left extreme revolutionary uh politics um I saw this uh Bookshop was advertised to be opened
03:14:09 uh Bookshop was advertised to be opened and I thought it would be a good meeting um to go along to for my own education as well within my field when you say mixing with other groups did you see this Bookshop then as some sort of hub for like-minded groups uh no I didn't at the time but very soon afterwards I
03:14:21 the time but very soon afterwards I realized that uh there was another group be probably behind it see and that group was um that was I'm sorry I need to refer to my notes
03:14:47 um I'm sorry it it escapes me at the moment all right well um let's look at another
03:14:53 another report uh ucpi 10157 please which is at tab
03:15:09 C20 now this is a report date of the 21st of February 1989 uh which relates to a group called The Communist League uh and I'll just um read out what it says at paragraph 2 the
03:15:22 read out what it says at paragraph 2 the Communist league has been taking a close political interest in the February B election at Ponty prid midg Morgan that the organization had been seriously considering putting forward a candidate but felt that they were not quite prepared on this
03:15:38 prepared on this occasion how did you come to um report on the Communist League through its connection with the path find a Bookshop sorry that was the name that I was struggling to recall
03:15:51 and is there a reason why you reported on that
03:15:52 on that group um
03:15:54 group um because I believed it was one that was probably of interest um to the security service what made you think it might be
03:16:05 service what made you think it might be of interest because I regarded it as um a subversive
03:16:12 organization could we look at 10178 please ucpi 10178 tab C30 of the hard copy
03:16:30 bundle paragraph two reads that the Communist League intends to put forward uh privacy known as privacy a
03:16:49 forward uh privacy known as privacy a prominent CL member as its candidate for the London South inner constituency in the forthcoming European Parliament elections on the 15th of June 1989 her agent will be privacy another leading CL communist League
03:17:12 member now are would you agree that um those reports both represent examples of the Communist League engaging with the Democratic process as opposed to attempting to subvert it um well I think it's the um you know it's the way entest organizations operate so whilst that
03:17:26 organizations operate so whilst that might appear to be engaging with it it's a matter of getting inside as it
03:17:44 were just looking back and considering the content of those two reports do you think that the assessment of the Communist league as subversive Group by you was a was a fair one I believed it was
03:17:56 yes 1078 please ucpi
03:18:03 1078 uh which is at C2 of the hard copy
03:18:14 bundle this report is dated the 27th of October 1988 and it relates we can see at paragraph two to a meeting held by uh the group workers
03:18:25 workers power and I think this is another one of your early reports what sort of group was workers power again I think I believe it was a revolutionary uh communist
03:18:39 revolutionary uh communist organization believed in Revolution by under Democratic means uh how did you come to report on this group
03:18:50 this group um I believe I went to a meeting I get picked up a flyer somewhere and uh decided again to go to to the meeting part of again cutting my
03:19:03 part of again cutting my teeth why did you consider that it was a group that merited reporting on because I believe that it was an organization uh that would be of interest to the security service because of its revolutionary um aims
03:19:26 can we just look at something um I won't bring it up but um perhaps you can turn it up to your for yourself page 33 of your witness statement paragraph 106
03:19:47 please and there you say um in my view workers power was a subversive organization but it was a low public order threat because while it frequently attended
03:20:00 frequently attended demonstrations it could not mobilize many people it was not involved in criminality as far as I'm
03:20:08 aware um in HD sight do do you consider that reporting on that group was justifiable given that realistically in your view it was a group that was incapable of mobilizing many people I
03:20:22 incapable of mobilizing many people I think from a special Branch perspective um yes it was not something that was of particular interest to us other than to service possibly a requirement of the security
03:20:45 service so I'm moving on to uh the city of London anti paight group would that be a convenient moment certainly um we will um resume at uh 3 minutes to
03:21:15 two
03:22:15 e for