HN25 "Kevin Douglas" & Lindsey German - Troops Out and Justice Campaigns

Full transcript

00:21:27 e e

00:22:24 yes um I trust you've been reassured that um uh these things happen and you shouldn't hold it against yourself certainly

00:22:30 certainly sir H25 I just want to return to a topic something you mentioned earlier on in your evidence this morning when we were talking

00:22:36 talking about Intelligence on terrorist activity and you said that just to quote you this is from the transcript I do

00:22:48 you this is from the transcript I do think that there were people yes that I would say have assisted terrorists definitely in troops out movement without mentioning any names and do take your

00:22:53 your time how could you say that you definitely would say how did you know that what was the basis for that knowledge uh I was once tasked to do

00:23:04 knowledge uh I was once tasked to do something uh right okay yeah yeah we don't need to go into any details of it but my point is did you hear anything from members of Tom or see

00:23:22 Tom or see anything from members of Tom that would that led you to believe or that showed you that they were involved no no you didn't witness anything firsthand no and and you didn't even hear anything secondhand as in someone else in Tom telling you that someone

00:23:36 telling you that someone else no I they wouldn't they wouldn't say those

00:23:46 things H25 we'll move on now to subversion very

00:23:52 briefly and you didn't understand or at least your understanding of your deployment was that it didn't have a sub verive

00:24:03 was that it didn't have a sub verive focus is that correct uh the group I was uh targeted at I wouldn't regard as as having a particularly subversive nature in that respect can I ask briefly what

00:24:14 in that respect can I ask briefly what was your understanding of subversion of the time uh the overthrow of the democratic process and how did you gain that understanding uh it it was basically a I suppose of doing Special

00:24:29 basically a I suppose of doing Special Branch exam you would do defin misss and things like that and

00:24:57 sver

00:49:55 e e

00:50:54 I

00:50:57 Sor and before we begin

00:51:09 um an order has just been made by me um which requires that no transmission or communication of the information

00:51:22 communication of the information referred to in the annex to the order is um uh to be made public um the annex to the order is available to be seen I don't propose to read it out now

00:51:33 hm25 um before the break we were talking about a report relating to the arrest of members of Tom relating to an activity there unfurling of a banner you say that they intended to do to Mark a when

00:51:45 intended to do to Mark a when gorbachov's visit in April 1989 and I was just asking you why you reported on the fact they planned to suo the police

00:51:59 the fact they planned to suo the police for false arrest and false imprisonment so I just ask that question again I thought it something the police would like to know about why uh if if they Carri through with it all well and good they they'll

00:52:13 with it all well and good they they'll know then but if they didn't then uh it shows you how they were feeling at the time that they really felt that uh the police had overstepped their their uh their position so you were warning the police yes yes

00:52:31 police yes yes do you know what happened as a result of that did they launch launch a formal complaint

00:52:33 complaint uh they might have I can't really remember did you consider the propriety H25 of reporting on possible legal

00:52:47 H25 of reporting on possible legal action that members of a group were going to take to the police uh legal privilege are you getting yes and just the the proi the ethical proy of it as well but yes uh no

00:53:02 ethical proy of it as well but yes uh no I was was happy with it because as I say the police will get to hear about it sooner or late if they were being sued and if they weren't then I think it showed that the fact that uh that in such a situation it is very very

00:53:20 such a situation it is very very difficult to know what to do uh when you have the political side of things and you have an incoming State visit could you see that you were giving the police an Advantage there in essence though because if they knew it was coming then they might be able

00:53:36 coming then they might be able to alter their response or cater their change their response not really because I in order to fend it off I'd hope they' be telling the truth and uh that there would be no

00:53:47 the truth and uh that there would be no change to how they were going to respond to

00:53:51 to it in relation to this incident you say in your witness statement that the information you provided about this planned action prevented National embarrassment during a h high-profile visit when you say National

00:54:03 visit when you say National embarrassment do you mean an incident that would have been embarrassing for the government yes and did you see it as part of your role as an SDS offer

00:54:17 part of your role as an SDS offer officer to prevent embarrassment to the government uh not just the government but to the United Kingdom uh and of course it's United Kingdom's government but they've been voted in so no I

00:54:31 but they've been voted in so no I didn't we'll look now at your reporting on Justice campaigns hn2 we'll look at um the mentions you've made in your reporting of the Broadwater Farm defense campaign and this was a campaign that

00:54:42 campaign and this was a campaign that was reviewing the convictions of three men who are known as the Totum three Winston silot Mark braith weight and enan rip that's correct yes yes

00:54:56 enan rip that's correct yes yes and they were convicted of murdering PC for the murder of PC Keith Blake block on the 6th of October 1985 but the campaign so it was Seeking Justice for those three men but it

00:55:09 Justice for those three men but it also sought to address wider issues of Injustice and racism is that your understanding of it yes you say that you're focused you weren't focused you weren't deployed into this group but you

00:55:24 weren't deployed into this group but you came into contact with them through your activities with Tom yes that's correct yeah and

00:55:27 yeah and in your witness statement you say that the reason for reporting on this group was public order and providing information to the Metropolitan Police about the levels of support for the group and the mood of its

00:55:38 group and the mood of its members and this is a quote from your witness statement you say the murder of PC Keith blakelock was fresh in my mind and I was Keen to do anything to make the job of uniformed officers more straightforward I trusted that the

00:55:52 straightforward I trusted that the information would be used to police more sensitively where possible while maintaining the capability for robust response if that was required so I'd just like to unpack that a little with you first the the murder

00:56:07 a little with you first the the murder of PC blakelock was fresh in your mind you say it was fresh in your mind and you were Keen to do anything to make the job of uniformed officers more straightforward how is reporting on this Justice campaign going to make their job more straightforward in your view well I

00:56:22 more straightforward in your view well I could get an idea of the support for the campaign so when there were demonstrations how many people might be attending and also how many people from Tom would be attending because it was all part of what was seen as a

00:56:37 all part of what was seen as a anticolonial broad front uh irand being the original colony in the view of uh Tom so that's the that's the reason for is the tie up why yeah and was it also because Tom were interested in

00:56:51 because Tom were interested in anti-racist campaigns oh absolutely yes yeah

00:56:53 yeah absolutely and they supported anti-racist campaign for the reason they were anti-racism

00:57:04 were anti-racism yeah um you say when you say that you trusted the information you provided would be used to police more sensitively what do you mean by that well the more information you've got the better you're able to tailor a police

00:57:16 better you're able to tailor a police response and my view was obviously the police would like to know as much information as they can so they could deal with a with a demonstration and would it would help it go off peacefully as far as possible so when you say sensitively you mean just sensitive in

00:57:27 sensitively you mean just sensitive in terms of the number of police that would be deployed to a demonstration or do you mean specifically in relation

00:57:38 mean specifically in relation to a campaign group that believes that the police are racist it might enable them to deal with that sensitivity both um again how did you believe that in

00:57:50 um again how did you believe that in that reporting on the group would allow them to interact more sensitively with well numbers the black community who were suppor this campaign

00:58:02 who were suppor this campaign uh well if I report something it's taken out of my Providence out of my care and I would hope that any information I gave would make it a lot easier for the uniform stroke divisional officers that

00:58:15 uniform stroke divisional officers that are are actually going to to Poli it and if I can give them things as to numbers as to mood uh I don't see how that could possibly be of of of detrimental effect was there a concern

00:58:30 was there a concern that the activity of the group that the protest of the group might become disorderly there's always a possibility yes with any with any uh demonstration which is very

00:58:41 which is very emotive can I ask you this in in your reporting on this group and we'll go to a specific example in a minute but you refer to the three men the Tottenham

00:58:53 refer to the three men the Tottenham three as the convicted murderers of PC Blake

00:58:54 Blake clock can I ask you this did you believe that these men were guilty of the murder of PC Blake clock well they've been uh sentenced at court so yes and that was

00:59:08 sentenced at court so yes and that was the view in the MPS generally in special Branch as far as you're aware

00:59:17 yes was it your view that the Broadwater Farm defense campaign believed these men to be guilty but just sought their release and that they were campaigning in bad faith was that something you thought

00:59:26 thought I say it's was impossible to really gauge I'd say there's a lot of people there thought they were innocent whether there were some amongst them that thought they were guilty I don't know

00:59:38 thought they were guilty I don't know but I certainly think there were people who thought them innocent yes um right okay so but did you was there any part of you that thought that because they were campaigning for the release or the people in the group because they were

00:59:50 people in the group because they were campaigning for the release of these men they actually might be sympathetic to the murder for the fact of the murder of PC Blake clock uh sorry how sorry I didn't put that very well so the idea is is

01:00:01 very well so the idea is is that this group or members of this group were actually glad that PC blakelock was murdered and were supportive of it and they just sought the release of the men

01:00:15 they just sought the release of the men because actually they didn't think they' done anything wrong I saw no signs of gladness that PC Blake had been

01:00:22 killed can I bring up a report please it's ucpi 23770 so that's at C63 it's a report dated the 18th of October

01:00:42 1988 uh this is notification of a picket of worwood Scrubs organized by the broadwat farm defense campaign and paragraph three if we could go to that refers to the leaflet advertising the

01:00:56 refers to the leaflet advertising the picket and it reads it's a little way into it but it says of particular interest is the call for solidarity between black political activists and those campaigning for a United

01:01:09 those campaigning for a United Island Ireland why did you consider this to be of particular

01:01:17 interest uh goes back to my previous uh statement that the idea was to build a broader anti-colonial front that many of the arguments that app pertained to to Northern Ireland appertain

01:01:32 Northern Ireland appertain to uh the position of black people uh in the United Kingdom that they were all victims of and why was their interest in that because there was concern that that might become a a mass movement

01:01:43 movement uh quite possibly quite possibly I'm saying this now several years later uh

01:01:54 saying this now several years later uh whether people realistic thought it was going to become a mass movement it is impossible to say at that time I certainly didn't think it would but but I but I'm not uh not a person with Second Sight so I wouldn't be able to but were you aware there was a

01:02:07 but were you aware there was a particular interest from SDS management and special branch in yeah alliances between yes because it could reflect itself in public order greater

01:02:20 itself in public order greater numbers um if we could bring up another report please if we take that one down and bring up ucpi

01:02:30 23772 so that's at c69 this is a report dated the 13th of December

01:02:39 1988 and this is the actual picket itself organized by the Broadwater Farm defense

01:02:46 defense committee and attendees included Tony Ben you reported this Stafford Scott George silcott and Dave Morris and you state that approximately 150 people attended can I ask do you know was John dyes on this picket

01:03:01 I don't from what I can remember I don't think I saw him there if he was there no I didn't see him so you can't assist usw no no not at all I couldn't say if he was there or not but I certainly do not

01:03:15 was there or not but I certainly do not remember seeing him um you say you state approximately 150 people in attendance with as expected a large number of ethnic minorities why did you report that uh again because it shows you the level of of support within 150 person

01:03:32 level of of support within 150 person group uh whether that means that there's going to be a greater number of people of ethnic minority extraction than than otherwise it gives a it gives an

01:03:44 otherwise it gives a it gives an indication again going back to this colonial uh anti-colonial front I suppose a rough idea of where the major support

01:03:51 support lies well if indeed depending on obviously the issue that's uh that's the source of the

01:04:02 demonstration the sorry if we can just a little bit further down that paragraph it reads the picket it's about 10 line 12 lines down the picket was extremely voluble and

01:04:15 the picket was extremely voluble and frequent chance included those of racist police racist courts and British Justice no

01:04:22 no justice chance proclaiming the innocence of the three was seeming ly contradicted by a song declaring them to be am a warrior there were half-hearted attempts to widen the perspective of the picket

01:04:36 to widen the perspective of the picket with chants relating to the Guilford 4 Birmingham 6 play5 as well as Trevor monl and virage Mendes defense campaigns

01:04:47 monl and virage Mendes defense campaigns police were roundly accused of murdering Cynthia Jarrett shooting Cherry gross and raping privacy Sharon ragab spoke of her hopes and promised to pick it wormer scrums until her husband won his release I don't read the rest

01:05:05 um can I ask just looking first at the bit about the song that you the point you seem to be making you're saying that chance

01:05:17 making you're saying that chance proclaiming the innocence of the three were contradicted by a song declaring them to be am Warrior what did you mean by that did you mean

01:05:24 you mean that they were suggesting the member Warriors for killing PC Blake clock and so therefore that showed that they actually did think they were

01:05:31 they were guilty uh not necessar but it it definitely what I was trying to get through there was the fact whichever way

01:05:42 through there was the fact whichever way it is looked at a police officer died in in those

01:05:47 in those circumstances and he was killed uh and that's what I'm taking there that uh they are talking that death had happened there U don't know it's necessarily

01:05:58 there U don't know it's necessarily saying that the three individuals were the ones who did it but they are certainly saying that within that on that night he was

01:06:16 that within that on that night he was killed by what they what I took some to feel was uh Community Action sorry but you mean they were celebrating it in this song yes but that's just your interpretation is it fair to say something certainly but I don't see what else you would be singing at for

01:06:27 what else you would be singing at for you continue in this report police were roundly accused of murdering Cynthia Jarrett shooting Cherry gross and raping privacy would you agree that I mean in

01:06:38 privacy would you agree that I mean in conjunction with the comment above and this that your tone here is very flippant and it's quite dismissive would you accept

01:06:51 that I think I'm making a point which it these things happened uh so I I don't really really apologize for those things uh I don't know that it's flippant uh but what I am saying is

01:07:07 flippant uh but what I am saying is there does seem to be a dislocation between uh something which is about innocence and a lack of justice and phrase am a warrior um I

01:07:18 and phrase am a warrior um I suppose what I'm asking you is do you think that your own bias here affected the way you reported on this group in the sense that you were quite hostile to

01:07:29 the sense that you were quite hostile to this group because the police were quite hostile to the group to the cause especially and that that then LED you to report on them in a disparaging way uh I don't think I'm being disparaging I'll

01:07:44 don't think I'm being disparaging I'll just saying what I saw there uh I don't know that I'm being disparaging uh I wouldn't accept that um the convictions of these three men as we know were overturned

01:08:03 know were overturned just after you left the SDS and actually just before sorry um and the court of appeal found that their interrogations the notes of the interrogations have been tampered with can I ask when this

01:08:16 can I ask when this happened did that cause you to revise your view of the group at all or the fact of your infilt your not infiltration apologies you're reporting on them uh I can't say I considered it because obviously these reports were in the system by then uh obviously the

01:08:29 the system by then uh obviously the individuals have been found not guilty so that is in my opinion the end of the matter but what I mean is your attitude to the group when they've been

01:08:40 to the group when they've been Vindicated did you then regret reporting on them in the way that you did well reporting on them at all but also in the way that you did as I say I I when this happened I forgotten I'd even reported on them but yes so yeah uh it's happened they've been

01:08:57 so yeah uh it's happened they've been found not guilty and and uh obviously if ID known that then I wouldn't be reporting on them so so your reporting on them was linked to okay fine we'll move on if we can go now to reporting on the Guilford and Birmingham 6 campaigns

01:09:12 the Guilford and Birmingham 6 campaigns please um now during your deployment we know that Tom and the Haring gay Irish working group supported the Guilford 4 and Birmingham 6 Justice campaigns and they campaign for their release yes um

01:09:28 release yes um you touch on these campaigns or they're mentioned in your reports uh I'd like to bring up a report please which is ucpi

01:09:40 23820 which is a report dated the 17th of July 1990 and so it's at Tab

01:09:52 c141 and it starts paragraph 2 it says there is regular dialogue between activists within the Birmingham 6 Tottenham 3 and Guilford 4

01:10:03 Tottenham 3 and Guilford 4 campaigns in particular there is a good understanding between Paul Hill Jared Conan two of the freed Guilford for and Sharon ragip of the free Tottenham 3 campaign and wife of engan ret one of

01:10:17 campaign and wife of engan ret one of the Tottenham three in June 1990 these three together with bra power of the free the Birmingham 6 campaign and daughter of Billy power one of the Birmingham six attended a human rights conference in Copenhagen although all three that this close contact is beneficial each campaign is in favor of

01:10:32 beneficial each campaign is in favor of maintaining its own identity a probable admission that at times it may be expedient for each campaign to be able to dissociate from the

01:10:45 others yes where did you get the information in this report from I cannot remember these campaigns pose no public order problem did they uh

01:11:06 uh I would have to go back and look at what happened at the time I don't know I don't know an answer to that there's nothing in your reporting to suggest that they did in the sense there's no reporting on right my remembrance of the buram six and the Guilford 4 campaigns when I was uh

01:11:24 Guilford 4 campaigns when I was uh reporting on them was that the majority of people thought the wrong people had been convicted right so almost certainly I do not remember public order issues at all regarding those two

01:11:37 issues at all regarding those two campaigns and by the time you wrote this report actually the Guilford four had been entirely Vindicated their convictions had been

01:11:46 overturned so these groups that you've agreed there's no public order problem they're certainly not subversive are they in the sense they're single issue campaigns so what is the intelligence or what was the intelligence value of reporting on these groups and

01:11:59 reporting on these groups and specifically on their attendance at a human rights conference together

01:12:12 uh public orderwise I can't see too much to to really be concerned about there uh it is

01:12:17 it is something that we've reported on because certainly there was one live uh issue there the three uh still well you mean the Tottenham 3 well the Birmingham 6

01:12:34 the Tottenham 3 well the Birmingham 6 hadn't been but it it was on its way I I think you can see the way was happening very very quickly that's uh once the Guilford four were were freed then the bman six were going to follow very very soon for for very good reasons why was the fact of cooperation between these

01:12:48 the fact of cooperation between these three campaigns relevant as far as you saw it uh again because you have individuals here who are obviously they they could they could uh could call up demonstrations could up call up public

01:13:05 demonstrations could up call up public order issues uh I don't see the harm in doing it to be honest with you the annual report for 1989 and the SDS annual reports I should say for 1989 1990 they list the Birmingham 6 and

01:13:18 1990 they list the Birmingham 6 and Guilford 4 and the Winchester 3 in the list of groups that are described as being directly penetrated or closely monitored so did SDS management direct you's report on these groups when you could did they encourage you no no it

01:13:34 could did they encourage you no no it was part of the you could not possibly be involved in issues of Northern Ireland if you didn't have a strong view about those two

01:13:48 about those two campaigns and SCS management I take it didn't comment on the propriety of recording on these campaigns of recoring on these campaigns no no comment made on that

01:14:00 that no are you aware hm25 that Peter imbert who was involved in the police investigation into the Guilford 4 and I think was involved in the original interrogations he was the commissioner

01:14:11 interrogations he was the commissioner of the MPS during your deployment were you aware of that uh I knew was commissioner but sometimes obviously when and where passed me by but I'll take your word for it yeah fine but did did you know that he was

01:14:23 but did did you know that he was involved in the invest instigation closely involved in the investigation of the girlford four uh no I don't think I did so I suppose my question would be

01:14:34 did so I suppose my question would be was that that was never brought to your attention you were never made aware that that might be no not at all not on the slicers no it wasn't B tomor a reason to report on these campaigns no not at

01:14:51 all when you say in this report what were you insinuating when you said each campaign is in favor of maintaining its own identity a probable admission that at times it may be expedient for each

01:15:02 at times it may be expedient for each campaign to be able to dissociate from the

01:15:03 the others

01:15:08 others uh I can't think at this at this time in that respect U maybe it is because two of the three campaigns were coming to a successful conclusion and

01:15:23 coming to a successful conclusion and they wouldn't particularly want to get keep going for the third one perhaps it's that

01:15:25 it's that um in your witness statement regarding the Birmingham 6 campaign you say that you reported on them because until the court of appeal overturned their convictions they supported freedom for convicted

01:15:39 convicted terrorists and you also say that there were some questions about how the campaign was funded but you say you could see the way the wind was blowing on the Birmingham 6 and obviously the Guilford 4 had been released so was it not your view that

01:15:52 released so was it not your view that actually they weren't convicted I mean they were convicted but they weren't terrorists they were men who had been wrongfully convicted of terrorist offenses uh so you're saying that the

01:16:05 offenses uh so you're saying that the use of IM make of the word convicted and that that was in respect to who convicted terrorists that that was your justification for reporting on them yeah which which one the the Birmingham six this is something you say in your

01:16:17 this is something you say in your witness statement at that time I suppose they were still convicted terrorists but my point is is that did you not consider that actually they weren't ter terrorists they may have been convicted but they were men

01:16:29 been convicted but they were men convicted of terrorist offenses and that actually reporting on them was inappropriate am I still right in saying they were they were still convicted at the time I at this well they were released during the course of your

01:16:43 released during the course of your deployment yeah uh but you're just this is just something you say in your witness statement about reporting on them all right fits in my witness statement I shouldn't have Ed it because of course they're not uh they were no longer convicted when I made the made

01:16:56 longer convicted when I made the made that statement but I thought you were talking about this no sorry I'm sorry if I'm confusing it's more just you were you were asked in your rule nine about whether or not what the justification was and you were saying that was your justification because they were

01:17:12 justification because they were convicted terrorists we'll move on right um You report on troops out movement going to the court of appe pill on the 14th of March 1991 to witness the release of the Birmingham

01:17:26 release of the Birmingham six I just want to bring this up briefly and we'll move on it's reference ucpi

01:17:29 ucpi 22246 S it's at tab

01:17:37 c167 it's a report dated the 20th of March

01:17:43 1991 at paragraph three you say there was obvious Jubilation when the men emerged from the court and a mood of self- congratulatory optimism as to the Damage Done to

01:17:57 optimism as to the Damage Done to British Justice what what did you mean by celebratory optimism as the Damage Done to British Justice

01:18:01 Justice uh well as we all know it was a very long Campaign which obviously ended up

01:18:12 long Campaign which obviously ended up with with uh with the appropriate result but certainly within people that I was mixing with it was taken as this is very much the harbinger of many

01:18:25 much the harbinger of many more uh court cases wherein people who are convicted will be set free and it seen as a huge Watershed and again in your view did it prompt any

01:18:38 again in your view did it prompt any soul searching in yourself or in the SDS about reporting on these groups or the propriety of having reported on these groups no because we are reporting on the groups when the situation is totally different to when they are

01:18:54 different to when they are released uh so no uh um moving on H25 to position of responsibility just very briefly you say you were the treasurer of the harringay branch of troops out I

01:19:05 of the harringay branch of troops out I think so but I wouldn't be 100% certain can you just give us a brief sense of just what that role involved collecting dues paying bills uh I don't know that I was ever full-time

01:19:16 I don't know that I was ever full-time Treasurer but it was probably one of the it's one of those jobs which no one wants to do and so it it I think it got passed around a fair bit and did it give you any power like did you get to make

01:19:27 you any power like did you get to make decisions about no spending no that that would come from the directions of the meeting and did it give you access to more senior members of Tom that perhaps or senior proceed like

01:19:41 or senior proceed like proceedings in terms of sort of not really the decision makers did it give you access to those sort of the main decision makers and Tom were in

01:19:56 main decision makers and Tom were in haringay anyway so so not really no cuz they were already present right so it didn't change anything in terms of you got access in any material

01:20:09 no just briefly we know that you addressed a meeting of the troops out movement on the broadcasting ban yes and you say that you sought management Management's position in

01:20:20 Management's position in advance why did you feel you needed to get their

01:20:24 get their permission I obviously did but I can't remember doing it uh there was always a slight element of

01:20:35 uh there was always a slight element of going back to Aon provocator you've got to be quite certain how what level you pitch it so all I was doing was basically saying that's what I'm going to do uh and I wasn't going to say anything that wasn't already out in public

01:20:50 public record and they were content for you to take on this role of Treasurer and to speak at this meeting uh yes if I asked them and obviously I did because I've I've said that but U yeah they would

01:21:02 I've said that but U yeah they would have been yes do did they encourage you to take on these kind of roles not really no you're very much left to to make your own way and manage your own campaign uh briefly

01:21:17 campaign uh briefly H25 if we look at reporting on members of

01:21:18 of parliament a number of your reports in your pack contain references to members of parliament what did you understand to be at the time the SDS policy on reporting on

01:21:29 reporting on MPS my understanding was you could say they were there as long as you put the word MP down uh that was my understanding uh because

01:21:45 was my understanding uh because otherwise if I do not say they're there it there would be a lot of uh context would be

01:21:50 would be missing uh and it wouldn't be the whole truth but so you understood that you could report they were there but did you understand that was the extent of what you should report pretty well yeah pretty

01:22:04 report pretty well yeah pretty well uh if I could bring up just briefly um the report at ucpi 23802 it's a report dat of the 21st of January

01:22:19 1988 and this is a report on a meeting at which Ken Livingston

01:22:28 at which Ken Livingston spoke and we can see it paragraph four I mean I don't think we need to I need to read it all out but just a sense of it the substance of his the speech his speech was a reiteration of his belief that British withdrawal from Northern Ireland would be the inevitable culmination of 800 years of British imperialism in Ireland and conclusion he

01:22:41 imperialism in Ireland and conclusion he believed which would not be long delayed he attacks the gross play acting of Mrs Thatcher after the incidents at harod and Enis Gillan and criticized the labor party for failing to attack this cynicism the campaign group meeting was alluded to at this juncture when

01:22:52 alluded to at this juncture when Livingston mentioned that John Prescott was not standing for the deputy leadership of the labor party and that this would present an ideal opportunity to campaign for the election of a person committed to British withdrawal from Northern Ireland H25 this is goes far

01:23:06 Northern Ireland H25 this is goes far beyond simply reporting the presence of an MP at a meeting doesn't it you're stage sorry what was he at this stage because obviously he was MP was he yes right

01:23:15 right uh again this is what I say that we mention it because without it uh there's no real substance he was the main person in this addressing this uh this

01:23:28 in this addressing this uh this particular group of people uh he was saying things which I don't think were different to what he said generally uh so yeah that's what I've

01:23:43 generally uh so yeah that's what I've done and as obviously a bit further than I said but there's nothing there that wasn't said and uh

01:23:52 uh yeah we can take that down now please um can I'd like to bring up another report this Rel to another MP Bernie Grant it's at MPS

01:23:58 at MPS 0747

01:24:00 0747 077 and it's at tab

01:24:07 c66 uh and if we could go to paragraph 12 of that report uh this is a detailed report H25 on a political rally held by the harringay Irish working

01:24:25 group in 1988 um well I I can read it I've got a summary here but well the document brought up but it reads while Farrell was speaking Bernie Grant the MP for Tottenham paragraph 12 please the MP phenam arrived from his constituency

01:24:40 phenam arrived from his constituency surgery and then gave the next speech the first part of his speech was lackluster and appeared ill-prepared but he soon warned to the task in hand and delivered the remainder in flamboyant style he provided one moment of Light

01:24:53 style he provided one moment of Light Relief when he mistakenly used the word castrated in instead of castigated predictably he drew comparison between alleged discrimination against black people in Britain and the plight of Irish nationalists in

01:25:08 nationalists in ster so first at 25 why did you feel the need to report on the way that Bernie Grant delivered his speech what was the relevance of it being lackluster or flamboyant uh cuz that's how it was

01:25:25 uh cuz that's how it was uh but would I can't even remember this one

01:25:28 one uh

01:25:35 uh can I ask also what what's the intelligence value in reporting that he accidentally said castrated would you agree it sounds almost as if you're writing a sort of humorous sketch as opposed to a

01:25:46 humorous sketch as opposed to a professional I can accept that yes yes I can accept in retrospect do you think that's not in retrospect definely

01:25:53 definitely when you say predictably he drew comparison between alleged discrimination between sorry against black people in Britain and the plight of Irish nationalists in aler again why did you see fit to insert into the

01:26:04 did you see fit to insert into the report your view that his comments were predictable because of the I'd written a lot of reports regarding this colonial front and that is why I use the word

01:26:20 front and that is why I use the word predictably because that is part of what I've been reporting for quite some time do you see it sounds quite disparaging

01:26:30 do you see it sounds quite disparaging it reads in a disparaging way as if yeah well I think that's in the eye Beholder because I certainly didn't mean it in that way and when you use words like alleged and plight again why did you feel the need to sort of create this distance between you and the matters on which you were

01:26:47 you and the matters on which you were reporting it's not just a simple factual account is it of what was said I think some people would would argue against

01:26:53 uh people would have views where those two words

01:27:00 two words would be proper uh so yeah again it's in the eyes of the beholder did do you agree that well did did you feel it was the

01:27:17 that well did did you feel it was the SDS style as it were to signal in the reporting that the sort of disdains maybe a little strong but that negative views towards the people you were reporting on that that was something that was considered desirable no I wouldn't say it was considered

01:27:28 no I wouldn't say it was considered desirable I think it probably happens but no one ever sorry apologies but no one ever picked you up on it and said look this isn't quite appropriate

01:27:46 no moving on uh we'll look now hn 25 at a report

01:27:58 on uh we'll look now hn 25 at a report this goes to tone really again report uh dated the 30th of May 1990 if we could bring that up please it's ucpi

01:28:05 23816 and it relates to a Tom AGM in Sheffield and sir it's at

01:28:12 c137 if we could go if we could go to paragraph 14

01:28:24 please this paragraph reads prior to lunch there were separate men's and women's meetings at which the men basically admitted to sexist Behavior and the women continued to bemoan their lot can you explain what you meant by the men basically admitted to sexist

01:28:35 the men basically admitted to sexist Behavior well they would have said yes we are guilty of such Behavior what what was such Behavior I can't remember

01:28:46 was such Behavior I can't remember exactly what that was and when you say you talk about proceedings at the women's meeting but I presume you weren't at the women's meeting because you're not a woman no uh what was the basis for your claim that at that meeting they continued to bemoon their

01:29:02 meeting they continued to bemoon their lot who told you that can't remember can is that how they I mean as far as you can recall is that how they portrayed discussions at that meeting there would have been a reason why I Ed those words so there must have been in my hearing a comment saying that look

01:29:18 my hearing a comment saying that look yes this this Behavior has happened and and we're not happy about it I can't tell you who where I got it from or who I got it from or anything like that do you accept that the phrase continue to bemoan their lot is a bit disparaging and

01:29:30 and sexist uh yes yes i' would accept that um we'll look at a few more reports on individuals hn2 uh there's one dated 11th of September 1990 uh the reference is ucpi

01:29:48 September 1990 uh the reference is ucpi 21871 if we could bring that up so it's at

01:29:55 c145 so very short report and it reads

01:30:04 privacy nope I'm apologized this is the wrong report reference sorry if we just bring that up it's fine

01:30:12 don't sorry can we just bring that up again

01:30:22 21871 thanks it's fine we'll talk about this report um this reads if we look at paragraph two privacy of privacy attended a public meeting held by the troops out movement on Thursday 6th of September at 7:30 at the UN wage Center she is interested in

01:30:36 the UN wage Center she is interested in the work of Tom and his on contacts list until she returns to West Germany after Christmas 1990 she is studying in London and is described as white about 5' s well-built born Circa

01:30:53 well-built born Circa 1967 and mid Brown untidy collar length hair can I ask what did you mean by well-built 25 uh strongly built

01:30:58 built uh is that what that means in the context of describing a woman does it mean something a little more the lines of

01:31:12 more the lines of shapely sorry I'm not getting this wellb built if you describe a woman as wellb built yeah is that a reference to having a shapely figure no no wellb built to me meant strongly

01:31:29 built to me meant strongly built can we look at another report please which is at MPS 0747

01:31:42 250 that's paragraph

01:31:52 five so it's page three yeah and you describ the woman here as she is is approximately 5'8 tall slim B slim bu pale complexion with straight black hair cut in a bob is in her mid 20s and

01:32:11 attractive why did you see fit to record in this report that you found this woman attractive uh I suppose to help with identification purposes in the future it's very subjective isn't it uh yes yes so it would you agree that it doesn't

01:32:25 so it would you agree that it doesn't really help with identif ation purposes uh I really don't know I I think there is a common stand of what people regard as attractive uh but you wouldn't describe a man as attractive only a woman is that fair uh from my

01:32:40 woman is that fair uh from my perspective yes it's fair um did your manager comment on you're using this word to describe a woman oh no no not at

01:32:57 all can I ask you this would you were you writing these reports given that you comment that you wouldn't describe a man as attractive were you writing these reports very much with a male audience in

01:33:16 male audience in mind uh no I was writing them from how I would describe someone uh the audience was immaterial would you describe someone as attractive to your wife uh yeah quite possibly yeah yeah or other women would you describe a woman as attractive you talk about them in

01:33:29 as attractive you talk about them in those terms wellb built would you say that it depends on circumstance I wouldn't want to upset anybody by by saying that if I thought that was going to happen so you accept that it might women might answer yes yeah I think we

01:33:49 women might answer yes yeah I think we all tailor our our language to to the to the audience and the location we're in um we'll move now AC 25 to your social activities with other uos you say uh that there were events like your wedding that you say Bob

01:34:01 like your wedding that you say Bob Lambert attended um Christmas events M and you say they were optional but that the managers and other uos would not like it if you opted

01:34:18 like it if you opted out how are you aware that they disliked it if you opted out I suppose a difference in uh the warmth of the room so certain intangibles uh possibly even comments uh I I

01:34:30 uh possibly even comments uh I I attended every single Christmas event so uh it was made well certainly I was

01:34:46 so uh it was made well certainly I was aware of the fact it would not be well regarded uh people did miss Christmas events and uh albe it wasn't roundly roundly uh criticized it it it was certainly I certainly felt you sensed it was frowned upon yeah absolutely yeah it's po CER is that that you've

01:34:57 it's po CER is that that you've anticipated my next question was it frowned upon you think because it showed a of lack of team spirit a lack of yeah yeah yeah I would say so will to bond as it were yeah I would say so um and did

01:35:09 it were yeah I would say so um and did your wife go with you to the Christmas yes event and can I ask was the tone of say the Christmas event we wives were present very different from the tone or

01:35:25 present very different from the tone or atmosphere at an male social event where it was just the SDS officers and the managers uh I hardly attended any events that weren't the Christmas dos so it's very hard for me to actually comment on that did you go to the pub after the

01:35:41 that did you go to the pub after the meetings uh yes yeah yeah and what just in terms of the kind of exchanges the tone of the exchanges where they differ markedly

01:35:48 markedly from uh the tone at the the meetings where women were present your wives for example

01:35:55 example I suppose they did slightly but I wouldn't said hugely hugely I mean it depends on the conversation and and what the topics are and the topics were tended not to go down the lines of

01:36:09 tended not to go down the lines of sexism or anything like that they tended to be about football about things like this okay we'll we'll look at that in a little more detail um if we go to the SDS meetings

01:36:20 SDS meetings themselves we've talked about them briefly in terms of when you were in the back office but now I'm talking about when you were actually deployed and in

01:36:32 when you were actually deployed and in your witness statement you describe the round

01:36:36 round robin format uh in which you gave brief updates on your deployments or not in the case of Stephan Scott um but that also at these meetings expenses were dealt with reports were handed in it's

01:36:50 dealt with reports were handed in it's that broadly accurate yeah that that was some of the things that happened yeah but

01:36:55 yeah but I get the sense from your evidence also from the annual reports that those meetings were intended to have a social aspect as well oh absolutely yes to see

01:37:06 aspect as well oh absolutely yes to see how people are coping mentally and also to see if there's any warning signs we certainly felt that there was that it was keeping us grounded in the reality of being members of Metro Police so after the r Robin and the business the expenses were dealt with then it was

01:37:22 expenses were dealt with then it was time to relax was that the idea that you uh yes yeah there was a dart board and things like this yeah and you refer elsewhere in your statement to a macho drinking culture at the time was that in evidence at those meetings uh in the socializing section

01:37:38 meetings uh in the socializing section at least yeah it could happen yeah yeah yeah heavy drinking uh there certainly enough to to push you way over the the uh level of being classified as an

01:37:52 uh level of being classified as an alcoholic on that particular day yeah um and so did that lead to Greater levels of disinhibition amongst the officers uh we probably got louder but I wouldn't say there was any any bad behavior that I could identify

01:38:03 behavior that I could identify particularly well I'm referring also to the things that they would say so did it mean that officers became more you're talking about several several years ago uh and I cannot

01:38:17 uh and I cannot remember anything that led to particular arguments or or no I don't really remember a great amount of of disgusting language or anything like that uh well I mean I'm the the behavior but the kind

01:38:29 mean I'm the the behavior but the kind of comments I'm talking about wouldn't lead to an argument necessarily but it would be crude let's say or I dare say there was some sexist and yeah I dare say there were some

01:38:44 yeah I dare say there were some because yeah things were it's almost an anachronism things were different then but I wouldn't have said they were they were severely uh at all out of order

01:39:00 is it fair to say hn 25 that if in your reporting for example in a professional document that you think it's appropriate and obviously management thought it appropriate to comment on a woman's attractiveness or perceived

01:39:11 attractiveness or perceived attractiveness MH or the fact she's wellb built although I accept you say that that was to do with strength but I do think it carries another meaning well it certainly didn't to me okay um is it

01:39:25 it certainly didn't to me okay um is it fair to say that if it was considered to express yourself in this way in reports that then in a less formal Forum so for example in a face tof face interaction the tenor of the

01:39:36 interaction the tenor of the conversation would be far more sexist and bardy for want of a better words I don't quite know how to answer that because

01:39:48 that because uh logic says yes but I just do not remember that being the case uh I just don't remember it being being the case at all I don't remember a lot of Bly

01:39:59 at all I don't remember a lot of Bly talk uh people would come and go uh I really don't I dare say people swore a bit more than usual but yeah I I don't

01:40:15 bit more than usual but yeah I I don't remember huge amounts of what I regard as down the public before a football match where people are getting very very Rowdy I don't recall any of that and do you recall any conversation about women in the Target groups that into no not at

01:40:32 all can I bring up a document i' the reference

01:40:39 reference it's it tab b 40

01:40:46 sir apologies I'm just getting that reference

01:40:57 0730 MPS sorry 073

01:41:08 0160 we bring that up thanks

01:41:26 it's not coming up uh it's not coming up it seems to be a technical issue but I will just read to you what it says and

01:41:40 will just read to you what it says and give you a bit of background to it um it was an interview between hn 109 who was your di we've talked about him earlier in your

01:41:41 in your evidence and it's an interview he had with officers from operation sparkler who were

01:41:49 who were investigating Bob Lambert's involvement in the deams incur instance and it took place the interview on the 22nd of May 2017 but hn 109 oh

01:42:01 on the 22nd of May 2017 but hn 109 oh sorry I apologize I think I gave you the wrong reference it's 0737

01:42:13 160 and hm 109 was talking to investigating officers from operation spark club he talked about his time as a manager in the SDS and sorry if we could go to the page second page

01:42:26 P sorry the page after

01:42:36 that now the bit that we are interested in it's well it's one two 3 4 five six

01:42:47 seven seven down but I'll read it it's little bit difficult because of the redactions but it says hn

01:42:55 okay hm 109 stated that they were unaware of any relationships between activists and uos however there had been jokes made about high standards of Intelligence being gained from

01:43:08 Intelligence being gained from horizontal Politics the other standing joke was

01:43:12 joke was that a category AG deceived woman was not very

01:43:18 attractive if we could just look at those in term

01:43:31 do you remember there being a joke at meetings about an a prominent activist who was deceived into a relationship with an

01:43:35 with an officer about her not being very attractive not at

01:43:48 all would you agree that it's consistent that comments on the attractiveness or not of female activist is consistent with what we saw in your report for example so that it's it's more likely than not isn't it that that matter was also discussed in an informal setting of a

01:43:59 a meeting I cannot remember anything of that nature no no I really can't uh no and I'll ask again was anything said

01:44:12 and I'll ask again was anything said about this category H deceived woman in the meetings that you remember I remember certainly I know the the name yeah but not in that not in

01:44:27 the name yeah but not in that not in that uh context so what was but when you say the know you know the name are you agreeing that it was mentioned in the meetings this name it did come up yes the name was mentioned yes so what was said about her uh I certainly don't remember anything about appearance I

01:44:40 remember anything about appearance I just remember she was mentioned because she was someone who uh was mentioned regularly because of uh her activities and it was someone who we now know had a relationship with an undercover officer

01:44:52 relationship with an undercover officer don't we yes so was there any mention of that because this would have been at the time when that was happening not in my hearing and not in my

01:45:10 remembrance do you recall any jokes being made about high standards of Intelligence being gained from horizontal politics no do you remember any other jokes pertaining to not all sleeping with activists no not at all or obtaining intelligence

01:45:22 not at all or obtaining intelligence through sleeping with activists not at

01:45:30 all and you're saying there was no sexual

01:45:33 sexual banter not that I remember no I can't say that it didn't happen because I wasn't there all the time but certainly I do not remember it happening at all uh bearing in mind we were all married men

01:45:44 bearing in mind we were all married men and uh as you've pointed out earlier we all had Christmas celebrations together uh people

01:45:53 uh people maybe kept uh kept such use of themselves but I do not remember it but would you agree that the fact that hm 109 has admitted to this I mean he said this to investigating officers so he

01:46:04 this to investigating officers so he says it happened would you not agree that that shows that the culture in the SDS was incredibly misogynistic and

01:46:16 SDS was incredibly misogynistic and sexist well I he obviously was here when it was said but to say it's Inc incredibly misogynist and sexist uh from one comment I I don't know that I would

01:46:27 one comment I I don't know that I would apply that adverb well he said they were standing jokes so the idea is they were say comments if it was standing J again and again I certainly was unaware of it but you would agree that that cost so

01:46:38 but you would agree that that cost so that's his perception and no doubt he heard it uh now I suppose it's more in your definition of incredibly and

01:46:49 your definition of incredibly and pervasive and things like this uh only talking to other people and what they say will you will you and I get an idea as to the level of this can we bring up please uh your

01:47:04 this can we bring up please uh your signed Herm witness statement which is the reference MPS 072

01:47:16 6824 this is a statement that you made to two police officers from operation Hearn we've referred to it previously um page one H and 25 just the it's actually the second part of the first paragraph and it

01:47:29 first paragraph and it says this statement is made in the presence of detective Sergeant officer one and detective Constable officer 2 this statement is solely for the use of the inquiry conducted under operation Hearn and is not to be disclosed to any

01:47:44 Hearn and is not to be disclosed to any other third party nor the contents to be disclosed to any other third party I should say you made this statement on the 12th of March 2013 can I ask why did you say that in the preamble to the statement about its

01:47:58 the preamble to the statement about its use because they told me to basically I mean it's uh it's yeah the statement is made soly for the US I didn't know uh yes conducted operation her that was

01:48:13 uh yes conducted operation her that was what they said to me and obviously it's been proved a lie because it wasn't

01:48:22 been proved a lie because it wasn't meant to to leave the office so this was almost dictated to me right so you were given to understand that what you said in this statement would go no further Beyond operation H it's sort of internal I mean it was a police run investigation I mean I didn't believe them but yes

01:48:42 um now it's correct isn't it You' signed this

01:48:43 this statement yes I did um and you signed every the bottom of every page there's a signature if we could just go to page four please

01:48:57 Under The Heading sexual relationships you're recorded to have said there was a regular occurrence in respect of sleeping with women it wasn't regarded as wrong and at the time the person would have to undertake a dynamic risk

01:49:08 risk assessment I feel sorry for the woman

01:49:21 assessment I feel sorry for the woman Bob slept with who was not a Target as such and you're I mean well there's a lot to explore here but also in this paragraph you say that it wasn't regarded as wrong sleeping with women and at the time the person would have to take a dynamic risk

01:49:34 person would have to take a dynamic risk assessment now in your inquiry statement hn2 you say that this comment about sleeping with women being a regular occurrence was taken out of context yes uh I'll give you some background to this which I think is

01:49:46 background to this which I think is useful as we've just said uh it was meant to go nowhere fast and not leave the room uh I was totally unsure as to

01:49:59 the room uh I was totally unsure as to what operation Hearn was and what it was trying to

01:50:00 trying to do

01:50:01 do uh the situation was two I think they came at least three or four times and at no stage was the statement taken there

01:50:13 no stage was the statement taken there and then they would write down I think we saw earlier in the day uh notes uh and so this is a statement and I I should

01:50:24 I I should have actually challenged a lot of this I did challenge a lot of it because i' I've seen uh the comments where there is a written pen note for myself about a number of things

01:50:35 number of things uh this was a regular occurrence in respect to sleeping of women what was

01:50:46 respect to sleeping of women what was happening here was it was a conversation and obviously the questions are missing I can tell you quite categorically that the first person that I was aware of had done this was John

01:50:58 I was aware of had done this was John dyes everything and that he was the only one also who the first knowledge of that did not come from the Press so you're saying when you gave the statement he

01:51:09 saying when you gave the statement he was the only person you knew about uh quite see I'm not certain when this was made but so I can tell you how how this has happened and how and

01:51:20 how how this has happened and how and what's happened because it it's still the way I feel uh it was not a regular occurrence in my view the first time I heard it was John D and that came

01:51:33 heard it was John D and that came because obviously the person involved was following him around we'll come to that we'll come to when you found out about John dyes so he was the first one and everything subsequent that has been

01:51:44 subsequent that has been revealed uh I was totally unaware of until it hit the various organs of the press but

01:51:52 press but your comments as recorded here yes suggest a regular current suspect for sleeping with women so it's women plural it's not just a woman yeah again I should have I should have actually said

01:52:09 should have I should have actually said no but why didn't you given that you did you obviously went through it carefully I mean I can take you to I actually don't think I did go through it particularly carefully because there were one or two amendments and I was getting to the point where I was not really fully understanding operation

01:52:20 really fully understanding operation Hearn and also I was wondering what they were up to uh so but what what does understanding operation Hearn have to do with it I mean the truth is the truth isn't it surely it does yes it is what you say when when you say to someone

01:52:31 you say when when you say to someone that this is not going to leave a room uh it I'll tell you there that uh it's missed out the fact that I think that every single because also there's a lead

01:52:43 every single because also there's a lead table here of the women I feel sorry for yeah again that we'll get to it but I'll explore that with you don't worry I'll give you a

01:52:58 give you a to speak to that but is it thee H25 that you were being candid here because you didn't think this was going to go any further than operation he and that's why you let your guard down I can tell no I didn't let my guard down at all I was

01:53:10 didn't let my guard down at all I was careless I was stupid but I can tell you quite

01:53:11 quite categorically that the first time I heard this had happened was with John D and everything else was through the Press everything else was

01:53:33 but nonetheless you did read it and you did sign it yes I did yes and this is fairly clearcut but fine well it's fairly clearcut I read it and signed it and I shouldn't have done well the things you're saying in at a clear cart but it's fine we'll we'll look at it in some more

01:53:42 some more detail

01:53:49 um now you say that you you make this point about making the statement with the benefit of Hines site but again the the tense in which I mean you're talking about clearly how things were not how

01:54:05 about clearly how things were not how you now see them to be with hindsight because you're using the past tense you're saying they weren't considered it was not an issue that they probably I mean probably suspected I accept but most knew of it in play I

01:54:16 accept but most knew of it in play I certainly didn't no I'm not saying you did but I'm saying this is what you're saying that management did know but you're using the past tense you're not saying oh I imagine they did or they Pro you're saying they knew of it in play in the past that's how things were I think

01:54:31 the past that's how things were I think I used I don't know if it's in this bit I'm not read it through I said uh I think the actual statement used the word probably that is far too strong well I would say possibly and

01:54:44 strong well I would say possibly and that is purely because of the relev the revelations that are coming and have come since that is purely

01:54:51 purely purely uh with hansan but the the fact that taking this at face value and your comment that sexual relationships of

01:55:05 comment that sexual relationships of women was not regarded as wrong that is supported by the facts isn't it that a very very high proportion of SDS officers with whom you overlapped had sexual relationships with women yeah as would appear yes so in a way this account you provide here totally fits

01:55:21 account you provide here totally fits the reality that we're now aware of is that not yes but that is fair a total luck

01:55:24 luck that is not that's just a coincidence is it absolutely

01:55:35 absolutely can you explain this comment you say the senior management team probably suspected these relationships took place and that it was not an issue most knew of it in play can we just first of all what did

01:55:49 play can we just first of all what did you mean by it was not an issue what do you mean by that uh I can't not an issue for whom I suppose is the question I suppose the officer's concern and also the management but that is a

01:56:02 and also the management but that is a place where it possibly suspected that these probably is a far too strong a word and that is as I say as a result of all the the revelations that have gone on since so you're saying that that is

01:56:16 on since so you're saying that that is you projecting back into the past that is me making sense of what's happened but at this stage you say you only knew what you're saying now is that you only

01:56:27 what you're saying now is that you only knew about John D you didn't know about all the others no that's right and and that statement is made from that that that period of time I'm certain it I thought I put something in like the early 2000s something like that it was definitely timed definitely timed and it wasn't

01:56:45 contemporaneous again we we'll come to that but also your phrase of when you say most knew of it in play I've got no idea what that means I think probably

01:56:56 idea what that means I think probably I'm saying now that most people do know of it yeah but that's different is I mean that's very different from most of the senior management team knew of it in play that's a very I don't know if that's Senior Management straightforward smt yes is what it stands but I mean

01:57:10 smt yes is what it stands but I mean that's a very straightforward statement what did you mean when you said that uh I don't really know I don't really know again I think I'm making sense of

01:57:21 know again I think I'm making sense of it subsequently because in my view the Senior Management team might possibly have been known but I don't think they knew the level of of what was going on can I suggest something to you

01:57:35 on can I suggest something to you hm25 that when you gave this statement you were aware that Bob Lambert was were you aware that Bob

01:57:46 Lambert was were you aware that Bob Lambert was in trouble I don't know you mention it in the statement okay if I did then yes again this is the information has come to me which has totally changed my view point on what had happened and also what my understanding of the situation was

01:58:06 totally when you were interviewed by officers from operation Hearn was it your understanding that were you still friendly with Bob Lambert at this stage

01:58:18 stage uh I when was this it's from the 12th of March I think 2013 uh I don't think I've seen him uh before no I'm certain I haven't seen him in that period of time but did you stay

01:58:32 in that period of time but did you stay in touch with him after the SDS uh yeah I did yeah yeah you did see him after the SDS yeah and when more professionally than than socially but did you maintain a friendly

01:58:48 socially but did you maintain a friendly relationship uh yes yeah and so when did contact with him fall off uh when he retired when was that roughly uh I I don't know I don't know it would have been the late naughties can I ask you this is it possible

01:59:02 possible that you were telling the truth in this statement about the situation and part of the reason for that was because this in a way it could be argued or at least you might have seen it this way it shows that Bob Lambert

01:59:20 it this way it shows that Bob Lambert wasn't a rogue officer in what he did that actually he was just doing what lots of officers did and what was considered to be perfectly all right so that actually this might help Bob Lambert is that no not at all fair no

01:59:34 no but is it fair to say you're generally loyal to your police colleagues I think you made that point earlier on uh no I'm loyal to people who deserve to be loyal I deserve to be loyal to it's all about the cause and

01:59:47 loyal to it's all about the cause and about the beliefs so if I don't think I should be loyal to people of of a situation which I disagree with I won't be

02:00:05 loyal looking at a few other details of this statement H 25 um you suggest in this statement or at least it can be extrapolated that the main reasons that you ascribe to UCO having sexual relationships in their undercover identities were

02:00:20 their undercover identities were operational should we say rather than emotional because you say in this statement we were ENT intelligence gatherers we were under pressure to deliver most of the time and you say that in the context of sexual relationships so can I just explore that

02:00:33 relationships so can I just explore that with you what what did you mean you were under pressure to deliver most of the time well you're there to do a job and in all jobs you should be should be

02:00:44 in all jobs you should be should be prepared to work as hard as you possibly can uh so that's what I mean there but were you did the managers put you under pressure was there a sense you talked about aggressive management staff R and 109 was there constant pressure to produce intelligence you don't have to

02:00:59 produce intelligence you don't have to be aggressive to to actually elicit good work from people you you work because you feel it's what you should be doing and also you work very often for for good managers because you don't feel like you want to let them down so

02:01:12 like you want to let them down so aggression is very often not the issue no but what I'm saying is was the pressure you felt that you refer to here was that internal pressure that you put upon yourself because you had high standards or was there some element of external pressure to obtain a certain

02:01:29 external pressure to obtain a certain volume of intelligence at a certain rate I think you knew if you didn't produce uh good work thene you would invite pressure so it's a Comm how did you know that I mean was that a threat I'm not saying it was given in a sort of sinister fashion but was there a sense that you had to keep performing at a

02:01:45 that you had to keep performing at a certain level or you were I think that's something throughout the Metropolitan Police it is it is that if you don't work then uh and I think that's true about most jobs if you don't work then people are not going to think well of you um does it follow from

02:01:57 you um does it follow from this statement that we were we were essentially intelligence gatherers we were under pressure to deliver most of the time given that that comment was made in the context of relationships with

02:02:11 with women is can it be averred from that that the pressure that you felt or that certain officers felt led to them sleeping with women in order to assist their intelligence gathering

02:02:22 assist their intelligence gathering exercise is that a fair no because uh I

02:02:37 exercise is that a fair no because uh I don't think this statement is very good uh but you did sign it yes I did but I wonder why that's in the sexual relationships uh sector uh I can't say what other officers did for instance going back to that Dynamic risk assessment that is me trying to make

02:02:49 assessment that is me trying to make sense of why they did it uh right okay

02:03:00 sense of why they did it uh right okay that that is all that's all it is that's B that's what you say but I suppose all I'm trying to say is you think that's app plausible in your for your understanding that's why they might have done it to get intelligence quite possibly quite

02:03:17 possibly and we've touched upon this earlier but your comment that the view I took is that the person would have been utilized as a participating informant

02:03:27 supports the interpretation that essentially that you you placed upon it that officers were conducting relationships for intelligence gathering

02:03:36 purposes sorry that you see sorry I'm garbling but the point is is that the my understanding of what you're saying here is that the woman that the woman with whom the officers were sleeping you would have considered her

02:03:52 sleeping you would have considered her to be a participating informant in these situations is that find this statement and I know I've signed it and I I've truly do apologize for that but that to me makes no sense at all uh I don't know where participating

02:04:04 uh I don't know where participating inment comes from uh as I say notes were written and then a statement was cobbled together and I think you can see there there seems to be a lot of nonse

02:04:19 there seems to be a lot of nonse occurring here and Sor I don't know where that's come from well you mentioned that for in the context of the Blue Book earlier on so this seems to be a phrase that was used commonly used in the SDS this idea of being a

02:04:34 the SDS this idea of being a participating in forment but I think earlier you were saying that was it that's what SDS officers might consider themselves yeah quite possibly but it it is beyond the

02:04:47 quite possibly but it it is beyond the the the bounds of of of logic really uh so you weren't saying that you would have consider considered women with whom officer slept to be participating in

02:05:02 officer slept to be participating in forance in an intelligence you're saying the women is are the women yeah I think what I meant there was the officer

02:05:09 right because it makes no sense but I mean the way it reads the view I took was that person yeah that's an odd way to refer to an officer wouldn't you agree uh well as I say this report was written from notes and

02:05:24 written from notes and there's a number of is because I can remember the conversation at the time and I don't remember it verbatim but certainly this doesn't get a sense of what I was

02:05:39 saying you also say that officers at the time so I presume at the time of entering into sexual relationships with women would have to undertake a dynamic risk

02:05:51 risk assessment so again by Dynamic risk assessment what do you mean did you mean that when deciding whether or not to sleep with a woman in their target group they would have

02:05:59 have to do a sort of EXT sort of off-the cuff balancing of the risks of yeah basically

02:06:10 balancing of the risks of yeah basically exposure as balanced against the quality of the intelligence they might obtain Dynamic risk assessment is exactly what you've just said but what I'm saying there isn't that I'm condoning in any shape or form I'm just

02:06:25 condoning in any shape or form I'm just trying to give some sort of explanation as to why they've done it and I don't think it's right what they've done but I'm just wondering is that what they were doing thinking right okay this is potentially an awful morally un legally

02:06:38 potentially an awful morally un legally wrong situation but is it worth it that is what I'm saying there well I say why are you trying to explain why they did it if you don't know because I was asked by the

02:06:56 by the team there was a a conversation going on here and that is why there it's full of non secator and mistakes and things which are not explained in

02:07:03 fullness did you ever did you ever consider was this something that ever came up the circumstances in which a UCO might engage in sexual activity with a person in their target group as in

02:07:16 person in their target group as in circumstances in which the dynamic risk assessment might suggest that it was a good thing to do no because I wasn't going to get involved in that sort of

02:07:28 going to get involved in that sort of thing so no and you weren't aware of any other officers discussing situations no as I say the only officers I've been aware of are those which are in the press and and John di they're the only ones uh I say only ones but obviously a there's a lot now but every time there's a new revelation it is news to

02:07:44 me you say towards the end of the statement that you think this is in relation to Bob Lambert fathering a child and you say I think bringing a child into this world as part of an operational decision is

02:07:56 operational decision is wrong can you explain what you mean by that operational decision do you mean that Bob Lambert sleeping with a woman that resulted in a child was an operational

02:08:07 operational decision this is goes back to what I'm saying about the conversation my view throughout was it was a totally wrong decision operationally or not uh but your interpretation is that it was an

02:08:19 your interpretation is that it was an operational decision that's your view from his perspective I think quite possibly yeah quite possibly but uh the view about I don't think obviously we talk about positive role models Etc and

02:08:30 talk about positive role models Etc and I failed to see how bring your child in the world without him knowing his father uh is providing

02:08:43 uh is providing a a role model in any shape or form can we talk about John dyes um briefly you say that you knew about John dyes when you get the statement and that you found out about John dyes before he yes it hit the

02:09:00 Press you said in your witness statement that you considered him you viewed him as a Gong Hunter what did you mean gong Hunter very competitive would want to be known as someone who

02:09:15 someone who had done a great job both for his own and for other people's uh purposes uh and yes he he want he was very competitive yeah competitive with everyone or particularly with Bob

02:09:28 everyone or particularly with Bob Lambert or I think with everyone but in particular with those that were on his side of the house Oh you mean involved in animal rights yes right

02:09:37 right uh did the competitiveness go both ways with hn10 with Bob Lambert and John dyes did you feel they were both sort of trying to

02:09:55 trying to get it was more over with John uh with Bob not not so much but that doesn't mean to say it wasn't there

02:10:01 there um this reference in your Hearn statement

02:10:05 statement to sexual relationships being part of an operational decision or as a way of obtaining intelligence were you aware that John

02:10:10 that John dyes targeted Helen steel intentionally that that was something he openly stated he was going to do for intelligence no you weren't aware of that no

02:10:24 you weren't aware of that no totally different side of the house to myself but it was never said in a SDS meeting or at the park not I recall at all now I'm not saying it wasn't but I do not recall

02:10:37 do not recall it now you say you became aware of their relationship through gossip can you give us a little more idea of when that was uh it was

02:10:53 idea of when that was uh it was certainly more than gossip uh again dates are I'm hard we used to do a system whereby we would be deployed to answer phones in special Branch so it's when I'd come back off the SDS I can give you no

02:11:10 back off the SDS I can give you no further date than that maybe it's in the in the package but I received a phone call while on reserve from John D uh and he was elsewhere in the world right yeah and uh

02:11:21 right yeah and uh I knew it then because as I say by chance I picked up the phone and he introduced the fact and and he was phoning about those issues and I knew it then you knew you knew about it already I knew about that then can you tell us

02:11:35 I knew about that then can you tell us please how you heard you said it was a bit more than gossip what did you mean oh certainly by the time I was well I received that phone call uh I was aware that things were being done to

02:11:48 that things were being done to mitigate but how when did you first become aware that he had had a sexual relationship with Helen steel impossible to say it might have only been a few weeks before that it might have been a few months but it it wasn't it wasn't

02:12:00 few months but it it wasn't it wasn't years by any stretch of the imagination and how did you become aware uh because obviously when you come off a unit uh there's a number of people have been on the unit and uh it was mentioned that

02:12:20 the unit and uh it was mentioned that John was having trouble and the trouble was this and what was the General view was there sense of disgust where people are pulled

02:12:32 of disgust where people are pulled within say special Branch from what you could see I'd say more pragmatism and how did it happen were people surprised were you surprised uh no I don't think I was why not uh because as we said earlier

02:12:50 not uh because as we said earlier that's realistically these things are likely to happen uh on occasions on occasion

02:12:52 occasion uh but no I I wasn't surprised no but is there something was it particularly John D for example something about him that meant you weren't surprised something in

02:13:04 meant you weren't surprised something in his character or not not particularly no I think it was more the area he was employed which I think tended to be as I've said earlier it was a place of squats of that sort of

02:13:19 squats of that sort of living um now please no do not mention any names here but can I ask when you found out about

02:13:31 but can I ask when you found out about johnes did you talk to any past or did you find out or did you have conversations about it with anyone who was either in the SDS at the time or former SDS officers uh must have talked about it because they were my source of

02:13:44 about it because they were my source of information that it happened for before I received this call from

02:13:52 John are you able to say did any of those people from the SDS former people did they give you a sense of how they found out the information

02:14:07 uh I I would think almost certainly it was John telling them because he obviously was concerned about his own well-being and safety uh so that was my

02:14:18 well-being and safety uh so that was my reading of the situation whether whether was another means of communication I'm not aware of it but my my feeling was it was from John

02:14:29 was from John and the view was not from these SDS former

02:14:35 SDS officers that it wasn't discussed it was more well we've got to just sort the situation out there was no sort of moral well it's impossible to it's impossible to to understand someone how they're

02:14:49 to to understand someone how they're feeling just from a couple of sentences but you gives an indication though doesn't it I mean of the general attitude uh not necessarily I mean people might have been feeling really angry about it but you it's impossible it's impossible to say they might well

02:15:03 it's impossible to say they might well have been well serves him rights uh they might have felt what a disgusting thing he's done uh but you couldn't gauge but certainly there wasn't there wasn't any

02:15:15 certainly there wasn't there wasn't any throwing up of hands or saying that was terrible uh there was no there's no obvious

02:15:18 obvious uh what say obvious of doing things but people react differently um you you did say in your Hearn statement that there was some

02:15:29 was some gosip about the relationship is it fair to say that yes okay there was a period when John Dian actually was communicating with the reserve desk about Arrangements being

02:15:41 reserve desk about Arrangements being made but the in addition to that there was some general gossip about the fact that he had slept with Helen steel oh yeah the the I'm certain when he rang me that I was

02:15:56 I'm certain when he rang me that I was already aware of it so yes I was okay so can can you shed a little more light on that then please that what what was this gossip where did you hear it from please be careful with names basically that uh the individual concerned was following

02:16:19 the individual concerned was following him uh to various parts of the world uh and that he was upset and that he felt he needed support uh what about sorry that somehow he wanted it dealt with as best it could but was there gossip about the fact that

02:16:31 but was there gossip about the fact that he had slept with her and had a long set relationship with I think in the circumstances it was never said but the reality

02:16:40 reality was I certainly assumed at that time that's what had happened you just assumed that you inferred that that was what was said yes but it wasn't said uh I think it was it was so vious

02:16:53 said uh I think it was it was so vious to so many people it didn't really need to be

02:16:57 to be said can we just talk briefly about Mike chitty um in your first witness statement you say that as far as you can recall you became aware of issues concerning him around the time it

02:17:08 concerning him around the time it emerged he'd gone back to his Target group it's possible that I was told about this before it was formerly known from somebody quoting Andrew Coes or from and Andy Kohl's directly So when you say issues

02:17:20 directly So when you say issues concerning Mike chitty is this does that mean the fact that he had sex with women in his Target group uh I'm trying to

02:17:32 in his Target group uh I'm trying to remember what was actually said I see remember the main issue was he he returned to them yeah I mean he did but he also did have sexual relationships women which obviously I've seen subsequently in in the various media organs uh but did you

02:17:45 the various media organs uh but did you hear that from and Andy CO's did he tell you that Mike chitty had been sleeping with women in his Target group uh no no I think again it was I can't I can't say where it came from but I do seem to remember hearing it certainly that he

02:17:58 remember hearing it certainly that he had sex women in taret group you can't help us with who where you heard it from no no and what exactly was said was it a straight just he's been sleeping with

02:18:12 straight just he's been sleeping with women or what was the substance of it uh you know I've got a feeling it was purely hi gone back to to the group and I think the subsequent stuff about sleeping with women I don't know when

02:18:24 sleeping with women I don't know when that came in it could have been sometime a lot later but certainly my initial recollection is he had gone back to his group which was very bizarre behavior and again can I ask what was

02:18:36 and again can I ask what was the as best as you can recall the

02:18:47 the as best as you can recall the attitude to his having done this was it again shock yeah it was horror about going back to the Target group what about him sleeping with women were people appalled by that him going back right and what about SLE certain about I don't think it was laid out in in my

02:19:00 don't think it was laid out in in my initial information that he was sleeping with

02:19:12 women in your Hearn statement you refer to so we're changing topic slightly um to you refer to the SDS selection procedure as amatees and you say we should have taken more people with a good heart as there

02:19:28 more people with a good heart as there were some basic ER errors in selection procedure you make a similar point in your witness statement where you say that some uos were not selected according to the right criteria so can I ask what when you say people with a good heart and the right criteria you're talking about honesty moral Integrity yeah predom yes that's

02:19:49 moral Integrity yeah predom yes that's what I mean and also I know we've talked about loyalty and the object of loyalty but I think you I would want to see loyalty to a proper way of doing things that's what I was getting at people who would do things properly and who would not act wrongly

02:20:04 properly and who would not act wrongly so can it does it follow from that that these officers like hn1 hn5 John dyes Bob lamit you consider those officers not to have a good heart these are the ones who I mean using your phrase uh certainly now yes how how it

02:20:23 phrase uh certainly now yes how how it happened I don't know but certainly I do not regard their behavior as in any way acceptable and do why if this doesn't seem like an obvious question why do you think it was important to have a good heart if you

02:20:41 important to have a good heart if you worked in the SDS I think it's important because you understand viewpoints which may not be the classic Metropolitan Police Viewpoint you understand someone's attitudes may be slightly different to your own uh and I think going back to initial question about

02:20:54 going back to initial question about honesty I think think that is the Crux of the

02:20:59 of the matter uh and if you haven't got honesty then I wouldn't say you've got a particularly good heart um we need to take a short break here now sir please for the stenographer might be a good time indeed we do we've

02:21:13 might be a good time indeed we do we've been going for two hours how much longer do you have not much longer I would say 20

02:21:20 say 20 minutes plus quarter of an hour for the rule 10 exercise it might be even less than 20 minutes actually

02:21:29 sir okay right we'll break for a quarter an

02:21:49 hour

02:37:18 e e

02:38:16 before you resume may I say something now before I forget to say it later um Lind German was to have given evidence this afternoon but um because we've overrun somewhat for understandable reasons uh she will now be giving

02:38:33 reasons uh she will now be giving evidence on Thursday when the whole day will be available to her if it is needed

02:38:40 needed understood H25 I just want to ask you a quick question going back to the topic of John

02:38:46 of John dyes um when you referred to the gossip finding out about or hearing about rumors about him and Helen steel and their relationship and gossip around

02:38:59 their relationship and gossip around that and you discussing it with former SDS

02:39:04 SDS members and current SDS members can I ask now be very careful with names please you've got a cipher key in front of you can I ask was one of those people with whom you had those conversations

02:39:16 with whom you had those conversations was hn 53 please don't say the name but was hn 53 one of those people I don't think so can you looking at that key are you able to

02:39:27 key are you able to identify the person if the name's in red don't say

02:39:30 don't say it are you able to identify the people with whom you had those conversations I've got an idea about who it might be but I wouldn't be able to say 100% that's the case uh I just look the person I can't say the name you can't

02:39:42 person I can't say the name you can't see them on the list no I can see on the list but you can see but can you give us their nominal please uh it's one of the I'm not

02:39:54 please uh it's one of the I'm not allowed to can you write it down yeah understand thank you but I wouldn't say 100% that is the

02:40:08 person thank you

02:40:19 H25 and can I ask did you was Bob Lambert one of the people that you had had those conversations withk quite possibly yes quite possibly you remember what he had to say about it

02:40:30 what he had to say about it uh I think about the circumstance of what was

02:40:39 what was happening you mean the fact that Helen Lambert had tracked sorry Helen Helen steel had tracked John D down yes anything about the sexual relationship uh no but again I think it was by that time accepted it had taken

02:40:53 was by that time accepted it had taken place uh but did he refer to us as no no no I don't not that I not that I remember not that I remember uh but I think it was accepted it was a romantic theas if we could talk a little more

02:41:05 theas if we could talk a little more about do you want to see the Sip yes yeah yes please sorry

02:41:21 sorry um if we could go back to Bob Lambert briefly we've already established you were friendly with him he came to your wedding and that your contact with him fell off a bit in later years yes post retirement post his

02:41:37 retirement you talk about him again in this Hearn statement that we've referred to I don't think we need to bring it back up again I think you're familiar with it but in the SE in the section on sexual relationships with

02:41:48 sexual relationships with women in the context of his sexual relationships you say such matters were not told to Senior

02:41:54 Senior Management and I have infer from that a 2025 that you meant such Matters by that you meant sexual activity with women is that what you meant yes uh yeah but obviously I was

02:42:07 meant yes uh yeah but obviously I was unaware that these things were taking place this again is probably a hindsight issue uh and the fact that they weren't

02:42:19 issue uh and the fact that they weren't told the management simply reflected the fact that I was unaware of them I mean I'm not sure if you're aware now but there is evidence that Bob Lambert actually did tell DCI waight and did tell DCI Barber no I'm not aware of that you weren't aware of that at the time

02:42:33 you weren't aware of that at the time didn't hear any no no no of that at the time

02:42:35 time no but does it follow from this comment when you said such matters were not told to Senior Management does it follow from that that such matters would be discussed with Junior

02:42:50 discussed with Junior management no no it's just that probably if this is from Hearn it probably would was said in response to a question did the Senior Management know I don't know was it Hearn that this was a bounce but but no it it doesn't mean that at all I think you've got to be seen in context

02:43:02 think you've got to be seen in context and it would have been in response to a

02:43:11 question so your evidence is that you heard nothing about Bob Lambert's sexual relationships nothing about his fathering a child with a woman in his Target group until it hit the media yes

02:43:25 Target group until it hit the media yes so despite your friendship with him not even a whisper no none at all I was absolutely stupidi you're absolutely sure you heard nothing at all absolutely

02:43:38 positive when you say you were stupified why were you stupified [Music]

02:43:40 [Music] uh I didn't think he would have done it personally why not I just thought he was a person with higher morals than that

02:43:55 a person with higher morals than that and there was nothing about the way that he conducted himself that you saw that indicated he might be capable of this no in your signed Hutton statement again in the context of sexual relationships

02:44:08 in the context of sexual relationships with women you say I feel sorry for the woman Bob slept with who was not a Target as

02:44:10 Target as such can I ask who do you mean by that do you mean the woman who fathered his child or do you mean maybe Belinda Harvey who uh was the names don't mean mean a thing to me but I will will

02:44:21 mean a thing to me but I will will explain I I particularly and this is where I think the the Hearn statement has to be most definitely put in context

02:44:36 context uh I feel great so for all the the women concerned uh and I felt particular sorrow for that one uh who wasn't a

02:44:47 sorrow for that one uh who wasn't a member of any group I know I shouldn't do but unfortunately I felt she was doubly wronged but can I ask do you mean then that if she were a Target then somehow she was fair game as no not at all no so why do you feel particularly

02:45:03 all no so why do you feel particularly sorry for for the woman who was not as you say a Target I suppose it's the element of Innocence but that's suggesting that a woman who's in a Target group somehow isn't innocent and somehow deserves it

02:45:14 isn't innocent and somehow deserves it can you see that I can see what you're saying but I'm just saying that in my opinion all all however many it was were were terribly treated terribly treated

02:45:28 were terribly treated terribly treated but I just can't make any sense of why he would go and behave that way with someone who didn't seem to be even furthering what he was what he was uh doing but this goes back to your point

02:45:41 doing but this goes back to your point that these women were seen as sources of intelligence that's what you think yeah most definitely that's what it well that's what he that's what I think he thinks and again what is your reason for thinking that's what he

02:45:55 reason for thinking that's what he thinks uh because obviously he was successful in his

02:46:03 field in the handwritten notes of your Hearn

02:46:07 Hearn interview and these again they're not your notes they're made by the interviewing officers there's a note which reads I can bring it up if I need to but I I think it's probably sufficient just to do it this way

02:46:19 sufficient just to do it this way there's a there's a note which says knew of several children mid

02:46:26 2000s do you remember that being something that you said uh I can remember seeing it

02:46:39 said uh I can remember seeing it uh as I say I the only child I was aware of uh and I think there have been some more since in the press the first one that I was aware of was uh Bob Lambert and whenever that hit the press that was the first one so if I'm saying mid 2000s

02:46:54 the first one so if I'm saying mid 2000s then I'm wrong if it yeah it didn't come because it didn't come out in the mid 2000s it came out in 2012 okay when it's 2012 then that is the first time I was aware of a child but can I say then can you explain why the note reads new of

02:47:06 you explain why the note reads new of several children cuz that's that's what the note says that's what the note says I mean I can bring it up if you want to look at it yeah but that's not in my statement No it's not to be fair it is

02:47:18 statement No it's not to be fair it is in your statement in truth then I think obviously

02:47:22 obviously uh I would have thought he would have put that in the statement if he felt that was right right uh I just don't see why he wouldn't because it's a as as obviously you're showing here it's a very incendiary

02:47:41 statement so you weren't aware of other children being born to SDS uos at that stage now you hadn't heard any rumors about hm67 for example example fathering a

02:47:58 child no

02:48:11 um um I can just I'm just going to confirm for the transcript that when you wrote that note that the nominal that you wrote on the note was hn

02:48:19 83 I just want to return briefly I'm sorry to jump around the place H25 but just to something before I forget when you talked about your deployment into troops out movement and saying that you came across

02:48:37 movement and saying that you came across people who definitely I think your exact words

02:48:44 words were I do think there were people yes that I would say have assisted terrorists definitely now not without naming any

02:48:52 names can I ask you

02:49:03 this how could you say definitely that you were interacting with people who assisted terrorists uh because because of their associations and as I say I was

02:49:15 associations and as I say I was deployed uh on a couple of occasions no I understand that oh sorry have we covered this am I going back over all ground I am sorry I've it's bad note taking apologies H25 we don't need to go back to that um if we go

02:49:33 back to that um if we go to another topic briefly is just bear with me

02:49:42 um can I ask you about your contact with other SDS officers we've touched upon it in relation of hn10

02:49:54 um but in again in these handwritten notes of your Hearn interview it's it's we should bring this up actually it's not very easy to read and it's the Hern interview is M MPS 0738

02:50:02 0738 048 so that's at

02:50:06 b39 on page two

02:50:22 um I'll tell you what it says it says something like aware of two who broke

02:50:33 something like aware of two who broke down got payment one of which speaking to the guardian not spoken to SDS men since retirement only L to network sleeping with women to see what was done now obviously it's they're not fully formed

02:50:47 fully formed sentences but does this sound familiar to you do you remember saying saying just taking it bit by bit aware of two who broke down got payment one of which speaking to the guardian is that reference to sorry that makes sense to

02:50:59 reference to sorry that makes sense to me there was that a reference to Peter Francis

02:51:01 Francis yes and thank you

02:51:11 and so the bottom of the page is the bit where it says not spoken to I think it says SDS men since retired only last to network sleeping with women to see what was done can I ask does that mean that

02:51:22 was done can I ask does that mean that you contacted SDS men to talk about the line on sleeping with women the line to take not at all not in the slices I

02:51:37 take not at all not in the slices I can't really fully understand what that means but I can tell you what what the situation is uh I have lost contact I think with practically everybody uh that I worked with not not because we've

02:51:48 I worked with not not because we've fallen out it's just the way the world goes

02:51:50 goes uh I suppose I'm saying there that the interest the only way I I keep some sort of knowledge is what's appearing in the Press uh because I can't make sense of

02:52:02 Press uh because I can't make sense of it otherwise but have you have you had any conversations with your former SDS colleagues since this inquiry was set up for example uh what happened just one

02:52:16 for example uh what happened just one and it's been predominantly about the procedures of this of this uh process there's no talking

02:52:27 of this uh process there's no talking about uh about women there's nothing new come to me that I haven't wasn't aware of through through the Press can I ask you to write down on a piece of paper who that person is that you've spoken

02:52:47 to okay thank you thank you aan 25 um and what about when the revelations hit the Press H25 about Bob Lambert and John dyes oh sorry I apologize

02:53:03 uh so sorry you're going to write something down on the piece of paper first I think but yeah okay uh in

02:53:12 order there we go

02:53:25 thank you thank

02:53:39 you H25 what about after the revelations hit the Press did you speak to

02:53:53 hit the Press did you speak to people I suppose it gets split into two two time periods one time uh up until the point of retirement and subsequently uh prior to retirement uh I can't think how many people I spoke to about it there would have been only one or two because obviously it was

02:54:04 one or two because obviously it was still uh and not many people would know what I was talking about so this officer h19 I believe was written on the piece of paper that's someone you've spoken to since the inquiry started did you speak

02:54:22 since the inquiry started did you speak to him about 9 oh 90 sorry apology I got I misheard hn9 yeah um was he someone that you spoke to when the sexual Revelations came out in the Press uh yes yeah and can I ask what was said about

02:54:33 yeah and can I ask what was said about it then was he equally surprised as you did most definitely that's definitely was there anyone you spoke to after the revelations came out who wasn't surprised who knew uh I think I've only spoken to and you're probably

02:54:47 I've only spoken to and you're probably going to ask me what I am I'm afraid who they are uh I spoke to one other and again

02:54:57 again uh yeah total surprise total surprise so there were no conversations which someone said oh no I knew about that no not at all not at

02:55:05 all thank

02:55:17 you um hn 25 I'm going to move now on to welfare as a topic um you said in your witness

02:55:26 statement yes it's uh just to for the sake of the transcript the name that hn2 wrote on the piece of paper was not name the nominal was H

02:55:44 n122 yes so if we turn to welfare um you said in your witness statement there was no real arrangement for monitoring your welfare when you were in the unit yes and you say that even hn 109's visit to

02:55:55 and you say that even hn 109's visit to check up on your cover accommodation was to check up on the sorry accommodation rather than on you that was my view yes yes and you were aware of that because I feel I've read somewhere that those visits were referred to as welfare visits but you saying that's a misnomer

02:56:11 visits but you saying that's a misnomer uh well they only occurred the once fine can I just ask you just a very just to deviate very briefly when hm 109 visited you at your accommodation and you said when you were giving the reasons you thought that happened you said I think

02:56:25 thought that happened you said I think there were elements there were occasions in the past where cover addresses were not occupied by the person who said they were there was that a reference to Stefan Scott or was that something else uh Stephan Scott was definitely the one I was thinking about that's who you were

02:56:38 I was thinking about that's who you were thinking about there were no other cases as far as you're aware of officers not being I'm aware of now not living in the addresses that they said they loved

02:56:48 him you say on your went a statement that you understood you were expected to look after yourselves as officers in the SDS and that you could if you could overcome the mistrust each other and that there was a concern

02:56:59 other and that there was a concern amongst UCO that any welfare issues would be taken as weakness and could lead to a premature end your deployment so was this a concern you personally had no I didn't but having

02:57:13 personally had no I didn't but having seen the way the world the world works and also in what was I suppose lot more match environment than it is today the Metropolitan pleas uh you're always slightly concerned that any sign of of

02:57:32 slightly concerned that any sign of of weakness could be construed as a reason to to move you on and what was the was this something that you just inferred from the Macho culture or had you seen examples of uh it's it's not just SDS I

02:57:45 examples of uh it's it's not just SDS I mean it's throughout the the the MPS at that time uh and some sometimes obviously you've got to say it's actually the right thing to do where someone is struggling and to move them

02:57:58 someone is struggling and to move them on would be the right and proper thing to do but you it was your impression from things you observed that this inhibited officers and prevented them from opening up about possibly possibly only the officers themselves could could

02:58:10 only the officers themselves could could answer that one you weren't aware of any officers having emotional problems during your time in the SDs that they weren't they were making a deliberate

02:58:22 weren't they were making a deliberate decision not to share with managers uh I think people kept things to themselves yeah even from other officers

02:58:33 yes in your Hearn interview your signed Hearn interview you state that there was a tension between being a cop and being an SDS officer can I ask what was this tension as you saw it uh the the way I

02:58:47 tension as you saw it uh the the way I saw it was you were a top in part of a top secret organization which was not widely known Within in Metropolitan Police Service that obviously you have spent time in other places other than special branch and the problem could

02:59:02 special branch and the problem could arise whereby you would fall into the company of someone that you knew for instance in uniform right so the tension you mean is more just it's a sort of practical thing that you might be compromised or exposed there's no

02:59:13 compromised or exposed there's no tension as respect to looking down on other elements of metrod and pleas certainly my opinion anything but right

02:59:23 um you also said it was felt that going back to the yard was going back to the enemy can you explain what you meant by that is that because is that a reference to a kind of Stockholm syndrome in SDS officers

02:59:39 officers uh I suppose that I can say that one of the biggest Transformations and one of the biggest days uh or suppose a couple of weeks of of adaptation was going back to to uh New Scotland Yard and to a a

02:59:57 to to uh New Scotland Yard and to a a very disciplined background yeah why the enemy precisely did you I mean I'm not saying you well did you feel this personally when you went back to Scotland Yard was this I didn't feel they were the Enemy No I mean that's probably just a phrase that I would use at that moment in time because at that time uh the people I mixed with did

03:00:09 time uh the people I mixed with did regard the police as the enemy to Great extent and can you tell us why they did what was your impression of why they considered going back to uh well they obviously weren't very happy with the status quo and the police are regarded

03:00:25 status quo and the police are regarded as upholders of the status quo uh that that really and you think they were unhappy with the status quo because of their experiences working undercover oh sorry sorry I've misunderstood your

03:00:36 sorry sorry I've misunderstood your question uh misunderstood your question uh no I think everybody felt the adaptation was was difficult and I don't think other officers they probably wouldn't use the phrase enemy they just

03:00:47 wouldn't use the phrase enemy they just would have said oh well it's it's going back to the straight and narrow and things like that and a more sort of regimented re yeah I know I thought you meant thought meant the people I was mixing

03:01:05 with now in the annual reports from your the time you were deployed there is some acknowledgement of this difficulty of assimilation there's a reference to it again I don't need to bring it up I can read it it's from Paris 17 of the 1988

03:01:22 read it it's from Paris 17 of the 1988 1989 annual report and it's referring to welfare provision it says procedure for supervising and counseling former SDS officers on their return to a normal work routine takes place every 3 months up to a period of 3 years experience has shown that the first few weeks of an officer's return are the most traumatic

03:01:36 officer's return are the most traumatic and since August 1988 it has been policy for each officer to be seen at the end of the first two weeks on the return to normal duties to assess any particular problems was that your experience I can't honestly remember I

03:01:48 experience I can't honestly remember I think it might have been I I think they might have seen me after two weeks but I I really can't fully remember that um I mean in your witness statement you don't

03:02:01 mean in your witness statement you don't think it was your experience but are you saying something different now no I'm saying I certainly didn't see much of them right but certainly I would have seen them I'm certain I would have seen

03:02:13 seen them I'm certain I would have seen them once now whether that was two weeks or not I don't know and was that okay and did you yourself suffer any difficulties of assimilation did you feel would have benefited from more contacts no I I don't think I did particularly because I always took the

03:02:28 particularly because I always took the the view that I'm going back one day and uh and if you've worked that out then Things become easier so did for me um

03:02:40 Things become easier so did for me um just on the topic of welfare if we just talk very briefly about Stefan Scott we've mentioned him already in the context of the accommodation matter um you mentioned him in the context of the twice weekly meeting meetings and you say that he would not contribute during the round

03:02:52 would not contribute during the round robin uh you say that I recall Stefan Scott would not share any information about his group his main contribution

03:03:05 about his group his main contribution was maintaining cover we were siloed and regarded everyone else as a threat including each other I just want to explore this briefly this idea of a threat the handwritten notes from your Hearn

03:03:16 handwritten notes from your Hearn interview there's also a comment a noted comment of yours which says jealous of own territory so can I ask when you talk about this sense of threat is that a professional threat in that you

03:03:30 professional threat in that you felt competitive with the other officers and that they were going to encroach on your yes it's an element of that uh it was your territory you were in charge of it uh you were giving all the

03:03:44 it uh you were giving all the information uh and if someone else was involved in something similar to yourself or was moving across where towards where you were then yes you would feel a sense of of threat yeah

03:03:57 would feel a sense of of threat yeah defensiveness yes you would yeah um was it in any sense a threat of compromise you thought they might put your security at risk uh no I think it's probably Pride as much as anything um and so was it your

03:04:13 anything um and so was it your impression that that's why Stephan Scott revealed nothing in the round Robins because of being jealous of his own intelligence as it were he wanted to guard it

03:04:18 guard it impossible to say impossible to say really he was definitely someone who was a big character yes well we'll get into that a little bit um just a little longer on this question

03:04:41 um just a little longer on this question of the lack of trust you refer elsewhere in your statement to the possibility of overcoming the mistrust you had in one another are you referring to this [Music]

03:04:46 [Music] same yes yeah impulse this sense that these officers were professional so that's all the Miss that's what you mean by that you're obtaining information and and uh yeah you don't want anybody to be

03:05:00 and uh yeah you don't want anybody to be aware of information about you I suppose there some of it um did management ever challenge Stephan Scott about the fact he refused to disclose information about what he was up to uh not initially no not not that I'm aware of no but before everything came to a head was there

03:05:11 everything came to a head was there acrimony did you witness any sort of acrimony between him and his managers no no no

03:05:23 no no um you say he was a very large character can you just elaborate on that a little bit uh he was someone who certainly I think regarded himself as the main person in what we would call the field which is obviously the operator the officers

03:05:35 operator the officers operating uh he was yeah he just regarded himself as suppose num marona

03:05:47 regarded himself as suppose num marona to use those expressions I used to what gave you that impression I was bearing uh

03:05:50 uh there was a a certain arrogance in the way he carried himself you say in your witness statement you understood that he left after an adverse annual qualification report well that's was stated to us

03:06:04 report well that's was stated to us right is that what you were told then at the time told yeah and can you explain how were you told were you called into a meeting was there a sense of a sort of

03:06:17 meeting was there a sense of a sort of emergency or how was it imparted to you it was at a meeting that's the home address of one of the management that's when they told you Stephanie Scott was

03:06:29 when they told you Stephanie Scott was yes yes so you had no prior notice of it uh I'm trying to

03:06:39 think it might he might it might have been told to us a while a week before maybe right and certainly the the

03:06:51 maybe right and certainly the the meeting I've just alluded to I think was much in the way of Justus ification as to that decision having been made uh that's how I seem to remember it so because we can see from the evidence not your evidence but other evidence that there was a period where Stephan Scott was told he had to leave he was dismissed from the unit but he was given

03:07:07 dismissed from the unit but he was given a period in which to disentangle himself from the field yeah of a better word were you at all aware in that sort of Hiatus period no that he had been asked to leave no the first thing I heard was

03:07:21 to leave no the first thing I heard was he was G gone and then the justification occurred I don't know a week two weeks later I don't know so were you aware that he went absent without leave in between that period so

03:07:33 without leave in between that period so during that period when he' been told he was leaving but he hadn't actually exfiltrated himself from the field were you aware that he had gone missing that he hadn't rung into the office uh yes I was but I couldn't say at what period it was but certainly I was aware he had

03:07:45 was but certainly I was aware he had gone missing for a period of time around that time but you're not sure whether or not you knew it at the time it was happening uh no we were no I was aware that he was he was AWOL for one of a

03:07:58 that he was he was AWOL for one of a better phrase and again how were you aware were you told by management yes I've got a feeling it was in that justification

03:08:15 meeting unless I'm totally wrong but that was my that is my remembrance what was

03:08:19 was the sort of attitude for one of a better word of

03:08:24 word of surrounding the fact to gone a well was it presented in a very sort of was was there a sense that everyone was

03:08:30 was panicking I wouldn't have said Panic necessarily I just think it was people explaining trying to explain the reasons behind the decision right and so you

03:08:42 behind the decision right and so you were given to understand they considered him a security risk such that no no the just ification was purely an adverse APA and the reasons for the APA the adverse APA we were not aware of right but what

03:08:57 APA we were not aware of right but what I mean is the fact that you were meeting at manager's houses you were told that was because of Stefan's it was it told then that he told you then that he was considered a security risk yes yes yeah and did you have a view on that uh my

03:09:11 and did you have a view on that uh my view was it was quite bizarre behavior and that I could understand people being worried um had you seen in the period before he left did you see any signs in him of depression or anything

03:09:28 depression or anything that stood out for you uh prior to him being told to go uh no I didn't see anything in your witness statement at

03:09:40 anything in your witness statement at paragraph 142 you say that you believe that the superintendent in charge of whichever whichever Squad SDS was aligned with at the time so I think you're in C Squad at the time no you're in sorry s Squad at the time you moved

03:09:54 in sorry s Squad at the time you moved into C Squad in September 88 you believe that the S Squad superintendent visited you in response to the Scot Affair so that would suggest it was superintendent Anthony Evans does that sound right

03:10:09 Anthony Evans does that sound right uh yes he was certainly around at that time but I do not recall the meeting well that was going to be my next question you don't remember anything about that meeting what he said no no can I ask you this was did you have a sense that it was a sort of morale boosting meeting as in to try and

03:10:20 boosting meeting as in to try and reassure everyone or was it more of a well I think now uh I don't really know you know I wasn't aware of it I've forgotten it no doubt I was there but I really you can't remember what took

03:10:32 really you can't remember what took place um you say about Scott that he had support from other officers but that the remainder of you did not feel he deserved your support uh that's probably putting yeah I can understand that

03:10:43 putting yeah I can understand that phraseology but it's probably a little bit too strong he certainly had what I would regard as a defense committee yeah uh and the other officers

03:10:54 uh and the other officers were very much saying look we don't know what this is all about we've got no idea so let's just keep our own Council fine so it's not that you had antipathy towards him as such

03:11:09 you had antipathy towards him as such you just didn't want to get involved no no we we didn't know really what the grounds were other than this APA so until you know that then uh yeah and you had no great relationship with him particularly I mean what was your relationship like with him uh it was

03:11:23 relationship like with him uh it was okay it was okay it wasn't antagonistic but uh but yeah I wasn't going to get involved in something I didn't have the knowledge

03:11:29 knowledge about we'll move briefly on to

03:11:36 hn4 you're aware after he left the unit he was arrested for after you left the unit he was arrested for drink drive and you became involved in his welfare briefly is that correct yes can I ask why did you get involved

03:11:48 why did you get involved particularly uh I was unaware of it

03:12:01 particularly uh I was unaware of it until uh an officer phoned me up to say this has happened and that was why uh and yeah but why you particularly uh I think with I don't really know I know the officer who found me had good

03:12:16 know the officer who found me had good relations with him and maybe just needed someone to to help out I don't know and you were happy to do that yeah yes obviously yeah

03:12:24 um in the note of that conversation that you had with him again it's not a note from you it's a note from Bob Lambert you report you were recorded as

03:12:41 Lambert you report you were recorded as having reported that hn4 attributed the emotional problems he was having with and his problems with alcohol to the time he spent in the SDS was that correct is that was that your understanding of what he said I can't remember but I I would think that's probably the same I cannot remember saying that but yes I would say that is that is most probably what he did say

03:12:57 that is most probably what he did say yeah during that meeting did you get any sense of exactly what it was about his time in the SDs that had caused him was causing him distress no after the event no no did he

03:13:08 distress no after the event no no did he mention anything about getting beaten up by police no definitely not

03:13:21 just bear with me very briefly at

03:13:34 25 just very briefly this is the last topic

03:13:35 topic hm25 uh so we'll be over soon um please be very careful when we talk about this topic about names but I just want to ask you briefly about the mentor scheme yes

03:13:47 you briefly about the mentor scheme yes and your involvement in it you mentored over a quite a long period 6 years is that correct quite possibly yeah quite possibly and you mentored

03:14:01 yeah quite possibly and you mentored three uos no don't need to identify them why can I ask why did you volunteer for this

03:14:02 this scheme uh I'm not certain if I've volunteered or whether I was asked okay but whichever way then I was willing and more than willing to to do it yeah and why was that uh I just felt that you

03:14:16 why was that uh I just felt that you don't like to to if they feel you can do some good they feel you've got something relevant to say then I I think it's important that you do that and did you feel this was something that was necessary that was a positive

03:14:28 necessary that was a positive development in terms of yes the opportunity certainly yes what people do with it is up to them but yes uh in in a document relating to the

03:14:42 yes uh in in a document relating to the mental scheme dated the 7th of April 92 it reads the scheme is intended to enhance the existing monitoring of offic welfare and that of their immediate families it's accepted that operational matters will arise during conversation

03:14:56 matters will arise during conversation and that advice as to best practice will be given mentors are advised however that methods may have changed since their time in the field and that any apparently controversial matter should be referred to the SDS dcii or di can I

03:15:10 be referred to the SDS dcii or di can I just ask were you given any training or information regarding the way in which operational methods may have changed since your time in the SDS I mean this wasn't that long afterward uh I remember having a there was a

03:15:23 uh I remember having a there was a meeting with several of us that were involved in the scheme now whether during that meeting these things were were brought out I don't know I don't know and um you question the efficacy of

03:15:38 know and um you question the efficacy of the scheme you say your first mentee you think it worked quite well yes but the two that followed it worked less well yes and is that because you felt they were unwilling to confide in you because they assumed that everything they said to you would go back to

03:15:50 to you would go back to management quite possibly quite possibly and I I knew the the first one uh for longer than the other two the minute I referred to previously there's

03:16:02 minute I referred to previously there's a reference in it as well to after each meeting that mentors have with their mentees to reporting back to the DI or DCI but you say that this fell into a

03:16:13 DCI but you say that this fell into a bance and that welfare reporting sort of fell

03:16:17 fell off is it fair to say say that the [Music]

03:16:22 [Music] scheme as it was described and actually what happened in practice or at least the intentions of the scheme but then how it played out were not really at one yes I think it it

03:16:40 really at one yes I think it it certainly was a lot more high futing and H High sounding than than the reality than the reality thank you Rich 25 I have no further questions thank you I'm afraid your time is not quite yet we have a last process under which um any further questions from other core

03:16:52 further questions from other core participants may be put uh through Council to the inquiry to you and your Council may have questions in reexamination but you're almost there thank you 15

03:17:15 minutes

03:26:45 e e

03:27:48 I'll leave those ones to the end um just a few Very Yes questions H25 you referred to Chris Hy who was a DS in the STDs when you were there um you said that he engaged in

03:28:03 there um you said that he engaged in banter and in being one of the boys can I ask what did you mean by banter what

03:28:16 I ask what did you mean by banter what was this banter well he was a an amusing chat uh was funny uh he was often the the butt of much of the human humor rather than handing it out it was something that people enjoyed being in the company of when you say one of the boys was the banter no it wasn't no no one of the boys as in you felt like the the rank

03:28:33 boys as in you felt like the the rank wasn't really that important to him and that he was of a level with you you also referred in your evidence to the temptation to which Anarchist living arrangements would give rise to

03:28:47 living arrangements would give rise to and you returned to this later can I ask what was the source of your understanding about these living arrangements uh I was aware that's how

03:28:59 arrangements uh I was aware that's how they lived but a lot of sorry uh people that were in the anarchist uh side of things uh the supposition has come of that's where most of the transgressions have occurred and that is me putting two and two

03:29:10 and that is me putting two and two together and coming up with that I think that was a a particularly dangerous area to be that was your own Theory it was on anything John Dy said for example about no not at all that that is me thinking

03:29:22 no not at all that that is me thinking logically or anything that Bob Lambert said that's just something you yeah yeah

03:29:40 inferred so it didn't come out there was any there was no conversation about this at SDS meetings for example about the anchus living arrangements or we you they lived in in squats because obviously there would be things like uh uh some of the accommodation the council will go in and try and uh retrieve them things like that but but no not as

03:29:54 things like that but but no not as regards uh what what we're talking about here now John dyes actually lived in a squat for a period did you know that yes yeah because I'm certain it was one of these that the council were trying to to reoccupy and so but he didn't mention

03:30:09 reoccupy and so but he didn't mention anything about the specific Temptations no that were presented by this living Arrangement uh do you think the reason you you came to this conclusion was because

03:30:23 because of stereotypes about the kind of women who were being reported on in those Anarchist groups no I've come to that opinion because trying to make sense of what's happened and there is almost a

03:30:37 what's happened and there is almost a profile as to the people that are that have uh done these things and they tended to be in the animals stroke animals stroke Anarchist side of things

03:30:51 just briefly moving on to another topic uh in your witness statement you refer to two managers who were from the T3 period that doesn't mean anything to you but they're a later period so I didn't ask you about them but I'm just going to ask now you I believe you crossed over

03:31:02 ask now you I believe you crossed over briefly with hn 67 if you want to look at the cipher key he was the DI yes uh from July 91 so you

03:31:18 from July 91 so you weren't man maned by him for long okay before well a few months um can I ask you say in your witness statement that he was di when you left he was unable to stand up to Superior officers in

03:31:31 stand up to Superior officers in particular hn 86 what do you mean can you provide an example of h86 H yes sorry h86 you need to look

03:31:47 up uh well 18 86 was obviously Superior rank uh but there are times when sometimes you feel that uh a wrong decision might be made and that the certainly your Viewpoint should be put

03:32:02 certainly your Viewpoint should be put and he didn't seem capable of doing that but I can't remember on what particular thing I was going to say are there any particular inces I can't think particular incidence he he was very much seen by myself as someone right if if

03:32:15 seen by myself as someone right if if this comes down from up on high it's not going to stop it's going to keep coming down

03:32:16 down right that he wouldn't defend you against hn 86 uh yeah it might not even be defended you just know it's going to come uh there's not going to be any discussion around it and he he's not going to put in a Viewpoint one way or

03:32:30 going to put in a Viewpoint one way or other and I mean did you feel there was a need for someone to stand up to h86 H 86's behavior that yeah I think that's a very confrontational way of

03:32:42 that's a very confrontational way of putting I think there's always value in giving your opinion as long as it's given properly and it is of value uh and that's where I think maybe that didn't happen you you mean in being able to

03:32:56 happen you you mean in being able to challenge someone legitimately yes yeah you might think that's that's a wrong course of action um just turning to AC 86 briefly you say about him he was DCI when I left he was not as capable or inspiring as Martin gray and was not

03:33:08 inspiring as Martin gray and was not good at dealing with crises or hiding his emotions when under stress he was far too willing to shift blame else s than accept

03:33:20 than accept responsibility can you elaborate on that a little bit more uh I think in many ways he suffers quite strongly from my opinion of his predecessor uh I probably wouldn't be quite

03:33:30 quite so uh I

03:33:36 so uh I suppose strong uh critical because you like in contrast with Martin gray I thought Martin gray was a very very good officer I thought he was an outstanding officer and I think anybody that followed him would have uh not being shown in the best line when

03:33:50 not being shown in the best line when you say he was not good at dealing with crises what did you mean by that uh I

03:34:01 crises what did you mean by that uh I have seen him at times get quite IR rate and show his his feelings which isn't something which you want to see necessarily in a senior officer because even if they don't know what they're doing you want to you want to know think that they know what they're doing would he swear and insult no no no no it

03:34:14 he swear and insult no no no no it wasn't that way no it was just almost petulant and there have been allegations that he was racist can you I've not

03:34:25 that he was racist can you I've not heard that at all I have heard no racist comments whatsoever from it just your final comment on h86 you say he was far too willing to shift blame elsewhere

03:34:39 too willing to shift blame elsewhere than accept responsibility can you give an example of that what do you mean by that

03:34:45 that uh I think I remember him losing his warrant card and uh I think he he blamed it on us for some reason for not seeing it going missing he blamed it on the

03:34:54 the uos yeah because we we we were out and uh his warrant card went missing and we didn't quite understand why we got the plane because it wasn't in our pocket uh

03:35:09 plane because it wasn't in our pocket uh and it just seemed like if you've lost a warrant card then don't go looking for someone else to to give the blame on it okay that is it now H25 thank thank you very much there are no further

03:35:23 you very much there are no further questions thank you thank you I'm afraid you've had rather a longer day than you may have expected when you started but it is now over and thank you for the assistance You' give me thank you sir we'll resume again at 10:

03:35:44 tomorrow for