Morning testimony from HN25 'Kevin Douglas', undercover officer who infiltrated left-wing groups in the 1980s. Describes joining SDS as prestigious job, hearing limited 'gossip' about unit, and volunteering for deployment due to academic interest in politics. Discusses selection process, training, operational practices during Tranche 2 period, use of deceased child identity, and lack of guidance on sexual relationships. Afternoon session features Lindsey German (Category K) testimony.
00:16:27 e e
00:17:30 welcome to is it the eth or ninth day of our hearings something like that um as usual I begin with uh a comment about what you may do with electronic devices um you may use any mobile electronic
00:17:41 um you may use any mobile electronic device you have to transmit silently to the outside world what you've seen and heard in the inquiry but only 10 minutes after the event that you are describing 10 minutes must elapse so that you do
00:17:55 10 minutes must elapse so that you do not preempt the video stream via YouTube which is subject to a 10-minute delay you may not use your devices for recording proceedings or or taking photographs yes repeat after me please I do solemnly sincerely and truly I do solemnly
00:18:07 sincerely and truly I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but
00:18:19 truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank
00:18:30 but the truth thank you please that thank you yes I'm going to refer to you as hn 25 throughout these questions because there's a restriction order of your real name do you recall providing two witness statements to the inquiry one dated the 24th of February 2020 and a second
00:18:41 24th of February 2020 and a second statement dated the 21st of February 2022 yes I do and are you familiar with the contents of those statements yes I
00:18:52 the contents of those statements yes I am and can you confirm that the contents of both statements are true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief yes thank you uh we'll start with some brief background just looking at your
00:19:07 brief background just looking at your pre SDS career uh I understand from your witness statement you joined the MPS in the early 80s that's correct and you spent some time in uniform yes that's correct and after that you joined special Branch
00:19:19 special Branch yes and when you were in special Branch you spent a number of months on cquad where you conducted inquiries into the extreme right wing yes and then you moved on to B Squad yes and that focused on Irish terrorism
00:19:35 on Irish terrorism absolutely so we'll explore first when you first became aware of the SDS H25 uh you say in your witness statement that you first heard about it in the first in your first six months in special Branch when one of the detective
00:19:50 special Branch when one of the detective inspectors identified another officer as having potential for undercover work yeah that's correct can you just explain the context in which that happened were you in were you with a number of people was it in the office in the
00:20:04 was it in the office in the canteen I can't rightly remember but I think it was probably in the office and without naming names just in case the DI was he an xsds man I don't believe so right
00:20:19 believe so right um you say this was the first time you'd heard of the SDS so does it follow that when this detective inspector identified or mentioned another officer's potential that he specifically said he had
00:20:36 that he specifically said he had potential for undercover work in the SDS as opposed to criminal undercover work for example I took from it it was an undercover job yes within special
00:20:44 Branch can you recall I mean apart from identifying that this man had potential what else was said about the SDS in this conversation was anything else said about it not that I
00:20:59 about it not that I recall and you say in this conversation there may also have been a passing positive reference to your own potential again I don't really recall that okay but right but you said in your witness they may have been there may have been yeah right okay so you can't
00:21:13 have been yeah right okay so you can't assist us with what they said about your potential or no okay um you say also that there was a limited amount of gossip about the SDS but conversations were short and
00:21:25 but conversations were short and discreet because of the need to know principle can you just give us a flavor of that gossip
00:21:39 of that gossip please A lot of it was in Endo uh a lot of it was what's happened at so and so uh and there would be silences and it was only as time went on that you would get to hear right there someone is doing something else you had no idea what
00:21:51 something else you had no idea what Roots they were in or anything like that right but you knew that did you know that they were deployed into it was to do with public order did you understand that yes yeah public order right was predominantly it yeah and you say
00:22:11 predominantly it yeah and you say that this gossip was lent weight because you would notice that individuals would disappear for a period and then come back again so in a way that uh yeah or they would appear because bearing in mind that most people were deployed for quite some years yeah uh you'd see more people come back
00:22:22 uh you'd see more people come back probably than disappear so it was the the general melee of people coming and going really right
00:22:36 okay can I just ask while in this period of time so before you've joined the SDS but in special Branch did you ever hear
00:22:47 but in special Branch did you ever hear any gossip about a an SDS officer called Rick Clark or Rick Gibson was his cover name at that time no but did you know him because he was working in special Branch I did know him yes but you heard no gossip about what had happened to him when he was in the SDS not at all not at that stage
00:23:09 um right you say that you in essence volunteered for the SDS uh because you say you were interested in politics and how Society worked can I ask you why did you what have given you the impression that
00:23:27 have given you the impression that working in the SDS was going to cater to those interests because I had I suppose working on cquad you were aware of the type of Target groups that special Branch was interest in was actually dedicated to dealing with so that's the sort of group that I thought uh i' be deployed against okay and when you say
00:23:40 deployed against okay and when you say you interested in politics what did you mean that you just had a sort of academic interest in them uh yes yeah academic and I think most people should have a interest in politics bearing a
00:23:55 have a interest in politics bearing a mind it's uh so important yes indeed um were there other reasons you wanted to join the S so for example the money because there was good money working there wasn't there I had no idea about the money at the time right uh it was just I suppos to challenge myself and
00:24:15 just I suppos to challenge myself and was it seen as a prestigious job to have yes yes and why was it considered to be prestigious uh because I think it was regarded as the ultimate of a special Branch officer to do something undercover it was uh it was a pathway I there's other parts of uh special branch
00:24:29 there's other parts of uh special branch which other people would pref prer to do but I think it was always seen as it is a job which you're dealing with the main point of being in special Branch okay so it's like the Apex for some people
00:24:43 it's like the Apex for some people special Branch work absolutely uh you said that you understood the way to volunteer was through an informal word of mouth process can I ask how did you gain this understanding well that's the way I was aware of uh and someone I
00:25:03 way I was aware of uh and someone I think mentioned there was an officer who was uh very very influential in putting people's names forward okay and you say you told Roger Pierce oh right yes yeah I mean you said that in your witness statement um that you were interested so you knew at that stage
00:25:17 interested so you knew at that stage when you told him that he was a former SDS officer yes and again how did you know that uh through very few discreet
00:25:29 know that uh through very few discreet conversations that were had and when you notified him that you were interested can I ask how you did this did you color him in a corridor did you arrange a meeting with him uh I think as I seem to remember it was uh at a social Gathering
00:25:43 remember it was uh at a social Gathering right and what was his response when you said you were interested uh I think he was guarded uh I think he said as far as I remember and this is some years ago I think he said along the lines uh he
00:25:58 think he said along the lines uh he would bear it in mind right there was no yes you're in at that St or anything like that
00:26:04 like that okay you say you may also have mentioned it to Paul Cen who was a uh detective Sergeant in the unit in the franch one period can you recall did you talk to Paul cyen yes I did yes and where in
00:26:15 Paul cyen yes I did yes and where in what setting did you talk to him about it he was on the same desk as myself on C Squad so it was most probably in the office and what what did that conversation consist of what was the
00:26:26 conversation consist of what was the nature of that conversation very similar to the previous one he said yes he would note it and uh he didn't say defitely he would go ahead with it but uh but I left it with him and did he say anything about the job itself or what it entailed
00:26:41 about the job itself or what it entailed or he might have done he might have done uh he might have done right but you can't recall specific I can't remember specific conversations in that respect
00:26:55 specific conversations in that respect no um having signaled your interest in joining the unit you say that you believed there was an in sort of informal vetting process yeah logic would would expect that okay so you're just saying that's something you would expect not something you
00:27:07 you would expect not something you actually knew or have been made aware of I'm fairly certain I've heard people uh say that they will ask people about you uh so I'm fairly certain that that's I seem to remember a conversation like that I can't remember who it was with
00:27:20 that I can't remember who it was with but I certainly seem to remember words being said to that effect so it would consist as far as you understood it to be people from the SS talking to your previous managers talking to people you'd worked with that's what I took it
00:27:31 you'd worked with that's what I took it to be uh did you understand that they'd be looking at your record so looking at your disciplinary record for example I would have thought they would look at everything right that was my assumption okay if we move on to your
00:27:42 assumption okay if we move on to your interview now the SDS you say that you had an interview with three officers one was Les willingale was he a DCI at this
00:28:03 was Les willingale was he a DCI at this stage or a superintendent can you recall uh he was one of the two I can't recall exactly which one um and Di was there and another officer who is anonymous um how did you prepare for that interview or did you prepare for the interview is probably a better question there was very limited things you could
00:28:17 there was very limited things you could do to prepare for an interview like that uh I was obviously very aware of the areas we dealt with within spatial Branch uh I've always kept a very close eye on political issues so in many ways it was a a just a continuance of my
00:28:29 it was a a just a continuance of my professional life and also uh the fact I'm a functioning member of society yeah so you didn't feel you had to do anything in particular to no not really no no um was it a formal interview did
00:28:45 no no um was it a formal interview did it feel formal or was it quite relaxed uh it was fairly formal uh so in essence it was like a panel and you were asked questions in a sort of professional yeah there were three people facing me and I was s
00:28:56 three people facing me and I was s facing them so I would take that as a a formal interview yes and can I ask what sort of questions you were asked
00:29:14 uh I think the motivation to want to join uh join the actual SDS
00:29:16 SDS uh that
00:29:20 uh that was what did I think would make a good SDS officer on fairly certain was in there uh I think they laid out a lot of issues regarding regarding how it was
00:29:32 issues regarding regarding how it was that you on your own uh that it requires a lot
00:29:37 a lot of intuition initiative things like this uh so as an interview went they seemed to talk a lot as well right so it wasn't just me talking to them can I ask when they said what did you think would make a good SDS officer what your response
00:29:49 a good SDS officer what your response was uh initiative uh the fact I can work on my own I've got a level head uh and I understand what I'm doing I understand
00:30:00 understand what I'm doing I understand what what I need to do and I understand how legal it should be and was there any discussion then or mention of the sort
00:30:13 discussion then or mention of the sort of legal parameters of the role in terms of the circumstances in which you could enter someone's home the circumstances in which you could take something from someone's home or no copy or disseminate material that you take confidential material no not that I recall it at all
00:30:30 material no not that I recall it at all right um were you told in this interview about the preference for recruiting married
00:30:34 married officers I don't know whether it was on that uh interview but certainly I was aware of that being the the Prejudice at the time yes but you were single at the time weren't you yes I was yes so I mean again to the best of your recollection
00:30:46 again to the best of your recollection in the interview was any mention made of your single status I can't recall I really can't recall was as far as you can
00:30:55 can recall was it at any point was ever there a question put to you as in you're single how do you think you're going to handle going into the field meeting
00:31:09 handle going into the field meeting female activists no not but like that at all not that I recall no so not even mention the fact you were single I I can't recall it being mentioned and when you say that you were aware at some point you're not sure entirely when you
00:31:22 point you're not sure entirely when you became aware that there was a preference for married officers can you assist us with some locating that in some sort of time
00:31:28 time period was that once you joined the unit no I think it was prior to the interview so I was aware of that issue and what did they say about it in the interview
00:31:41 did they say about it in the interview uh I can't recall them saying anything the interview about it uh but you can recall they did say mention it quite
00:31:52 recall they did say mention it quite possibly yeah quite possibly and just in case it drugs your memory did they say anything about why they preferred recruiting married officers stability the stability of being a
00:32:03 stability the stability of being a married man uh the idea that if I think it was put predominantly as being for your own mental well-being right the idea that uh you would have someone to go back and discuss things with within
00:32:17 go back and discuss things with within parameters obviously that you're feeling very very down or you're feeling as if uh things were coming on top you had someone there to actually talk to and obviously someone who could keep an eye on you as well I would have thought was there any explicit mention of the fact
00:32:36 there any explicit mention of the fact that being married might stop you from having sex with people in your target group no not at all not at all no mention of that
00:32:44 no and there was was there any mention in this interview about Rick Clark the
00:32:59 in this interview about Rick Clark the former SDS officer maybe as a cautionary tale absolutely not no no no um did did SS managers visit you at home before your
00:33:01 your deployment
00:33:14 uh I don't believe so I don't believe so did you understand I mean again to the best of your knowledge that they generally did visit officers at home before recruiting them to the unit or before deployment at least I think they
00:33:27 least I think they would my recollection and it is a very dim
00:33:28 dim collection is that if you were married they quite probably did visit your home to see the other partner well that was
00:33:39 to see the other partner well that was you anticipated my next question why so did you get the impression that they only visited officers at home if they were married but if they were single like you then they wouldn't uh quite possibly but I I was
00:33:50 wouldn't uh quite possibly but I I was probably one of the first ones that was single to be taken on so I don't know that you can get system from it uh right but you are aware that of your married colleagues did receive I'm fairly certain yeah I'm fairly
00:34:08 certain um and your understanding I'm me get in so far as through your conversations with colleagues that you you believe that the reason that SDS managers visited married officers at home was to get a sense of their home
00:34:19 home was to get a sense of their home life certainly yeah and do you think it was to get a sense of the that the state of their relationship with their quite possibly quite possi
00:34:33 okay if we move on now to assurances that you say you were given you say that after you've been offer the job Eric Docker assured you that your deployment and cover name would not be
00:34:48 deployment and cover name would not be disclosed so was your understanding that he meant by that it would be not it wouldn't be disclosed outside the
00:34:59 SDS yes right and he also reassured you that you would be put in positions that would expose you unnecessarily yes and without these you say you wouldn't have joined the
00:35:10 wouldn't have joined the unit uh yes yes because were you very concerned about your personal safety uh well it just struck me not a very professional outfit to join if they
00:35:23 very professional outfit to join if they were going to put me in situations which I didn't need to be put into simple as that so does it follow that when you were given these assurances did you have a meeting with Eric Docker before after
00:35:34 a meeting with Eric Docker before after the interview but before you joined the unit
00:35:37 unit properly yes and was it just you and Eric
00:35:41 Eric Docker uh there might have been someone else there right there might have been um was it at Vincent Square can you remember where it was I'm almost certain it was Vincent square and what else
00:35:53 it was Vincent square and what else apart from these assurances can you assist us with what else was discussed at this meeting
00:36:07 uh I seem to remember there's a blue book and there was elements of that we discuss the practicalities
00:36:16 uh it's a long long time ago so I can I can only think that it would be along the lines of look we're always there for you and uh and do it do your best and things like this and uh yeah yeah and
00:36:30 things like this and uh yeah yeah and but you you think the Blue Book may have been raised at it might have been yeah the fact that there was a sort of guide to it wasn't a Bible by any stretch of the imagination but but it was it was there yeah well we'll come on to we'll
00:36:43 there yeah well we'll come on to we'll return to the topic of the blue book in Du course
00:36:49 Du course um now you say and we've just explored that you had some concerns about security for example and the Prof you know you wanted to reassurance that the unit was professional and would protect you
00:36:59 you um but I just want to explore whether you had any other concerns about as other aspects of the job um I'm not going to bring this up but this is a document in your bundle which actually relates
00:37:10 relates [Music]
00:37:11 [Music] to Mike chitty hn 11's disciplinary hearings and a meeting you have with tn28 who is his cover employer we don't need to look at the document because
00:37:23 need to look at the document because it's just a very small section that I want to raise but it says in this that you you explained or you you're recorded to have said that matters of honesty were fundamental to being a
00:37:35 were fundamental to being a policeman yes this is obviously I mean it's in a different comp you're talking about Mike jitty's expenses claims about him fiddling his expenses but can I ask you is that as far as you are aware is
00:37:47 you is that as far as you are aware is that is that an accurate record of your
00:37:59 that is that an accurate record of your view yes and do you still feel that the matters of honesty are fundamental yes and can you explain why you consider that I mean briefly but why you consider mass of honesty to be uh fundamental unless you're honest then
00:38:12 fundamental unless you're honest then there isn't and as a policeman you are given tremendous Powers uh you are in many ways implementing the law which fundamentally requires honesty and it would be a huge huge dislocation to have a police
00:38:27 huge dislocation to have a police officer who didn't believe that honesty is the right course so did the prospect of doing a job I mean obviously it was sanctioned the dishonesty inherent in the role but did it cause you any concern as that was
00:38:44 did it cause you any concern as that was your Creed that you would be taking on a role which in which necessarily you had to
00:38:45 to lie it comes back to the the greater good the necessity to sometimes lie in order to achieve issues right uh almost the concept of the white lie so that's
00:39:00 the concept of the white lie so that's how you justifi how I jusi to myself and did you discuss this sort of possible ethical quandry with anyone before you took on the role no because that I already had that belief
00:39:13 already had that belief right okay if we move on now to joining the unit um and your time in the back office you say that you joined the unit at the same time as John dines so were you in the back office together then yes
00:39:25 you in the back office together then yes and you were sort of learning on the job together is that fair to say yes we were yeah yeah uh yeah did you have a good relationship yes and was were you
00:39:43 relationship yes and was were you mutually supportive or was an element of competitiveness uh mutually support I suppose you were but the police environment is not somewhere where you
00:39:55 environment is not somewhere where you go in for a lot of mutually supportive you you suppos you do it naturally uh and as regards competitiveness not particularly because he was in a different Feld it's m um when you say mutually supportive it happens naturally do you mean that it's just an integral part of being a policeman that you look
00:40:09 part of being a policeman that you look out for one another and that you support one another you would hope that yes yes and that's a given like it's not an unusual you would expect that to be the you would hope it happens yeah um when you were in the back office you were is it correct to say you were
00:40:20 you were is it correct to say you were dealing with reports yes so topping and tailing as we call it doing putting the preamble
00:40:30 preamble uh no it's more the admin side of things uh stamping them up where they were
00:40:41 uh stamping them up where they were going right uh you didn't interfere with the reports the reports were written uh it's the word of the officer uh so you didn't change anything other than you just sent them to where they were meant to go and then you then presented them to the the sergeants who put on the minute sheets and did things like this
00:40:52 minute sheets and did things like this did you get any advice from management or any instruction for management when you were doing this to look at the
00:41:04 you were doing this to look at the contents of the reports to give you an idea of the type of information you should be
00:41:06 should be recording no but I think it it common sense said that's what you would do uh so yes and can I ask were the reports that you saw in the SDS were they
00:41:17 that you saw in the SDS were they markedly different in terms of the format and the content from reports that you'd seen or that you had submitted yourself in special Branch yes so obviously the Star was from a secret
00:41:31 obviously the Star was from a secret reliable source etc etc but in terms of the actual content the type of information yes it it was obvious this was firsthand uh and it wasn't taken
00:41:43 was firsthand uh and it wasn't taken from uh any publication or from a third party it was it was it it was stuff which people had viewed and themselves there was more private information absolutely yeah so was it your
00:41:56 absolutely yeah so was it your understanding that in the SDS it was the norm really to report most things that you came across even if they didn't have even if there was no obvious policing or intelligence
00:42:08 intelligence value uh yes or no on that uh obviously if you felt it was of value then and most things hopefully that you reported would be of value then you reported it if they were Superfluous things
00:42:21 if they were Superfluous things ridiculous things then no you didn't uh and what about if you were unsure whether it might have some value then I would on the side of cour and
00:42:33 Reporting just going to talk briefly about operation spark from the deams incendiary campaigns because these were taking place when you were in the back office ag25 so you were in the back office April around April to October
00:42:54 office April around April to October 1987 is that correct uh yes um and were you aware at the time of this deams incendiary device campaign and the arrest of of Andrew Clark and Jeff Shephard uh yes and were you aware that Bob Lambert had infiltrated the ALF at that time
00:43:08 infiltrated the ALF at that time yes now you say that when you were in the back office um well actually sorry can I just ask how were you aware of that like how had that come to your attention uh again long time ago and a
00:43:24 attention uh again long time ago and a lot of some of this will be supposition but at the meetings we would always uh say what have you been up to it would go around the room and ask what everyone had been up to right and obviously uh
00:43:46 had been up to right and obviously uh Bob Lambert would give would give H what was happening obviously not full detail to to the entire room because it would have gone on forever and ever and no doubt there there were issues which uh even there would they would keep within
00:43:58 even there would they would keep within uh their own office as such uh but yeah I was aware okay well we again we'll come on to your attendance at those meetings when you're in the back office but that's helpful thank you um you say that one of the roles you had in the back office was to wait outside if Bob lamber was coming to
00:44:10 outside if Bob lamber was coming to Vincent Square to see if he was followed yeah that happened on one occasion so it wasn't it wasn't a regular thing though I wasn't hanging around Vincent Square hoping for things like that um but you
00:44:22 hoping for things like that um but you said he was the only UC that you recall coming into the office coming to Vincent Square when you were when you were in the back office uh yes yes so it was an
00:44:35 the back office uh yes yes so it was an unusual it was hu yeah hugely unusual um and for obvious reasons because with long hair and looking different from usual you didn't want to
00:44:46 different from usual you didn't want to be as undercover officers seen on police premises no especially not in that neighborhood no um was it your understanding you say you think it only happened once then cuz I think that's your witness statement suggests it
00:44:59 your witness statement suggests it happened more more than once I can I can remember walking him in once right now whether it was another occasion when he came in I don't know but certainly I I seem to only remember walking in the
00:45:14 seem to only remember walking in the once fine fine um was it your impression that he was coming to speak to DCI do sorry DCI McLoud and Di Docker he was certainly coming in to speak to the higher ups in the office yes and if they were the two that were present at the time then yes definitely um did was there any mentioned by
00:45:30 um did was there any mentioned by management or by I don't know why John di would necessarily know but why the reason why he kept coming into why sorry he came once into the office that
00:45:40 time uh I don't know I mean I I assumed it was to do with what was ongoing uh uh yeah I don't think there was conversation much at all about why he was coming in
00:45:55 was coming in uh were you privy in your time in the back office to any conversation about with the managers about the deams incidents
00:46:10 no you say also that Bob Lambert had more frequent meetings with the managers at the safe house yeah that's that that was my
00:46:21 house yeah that's that that was my recollection yes and is that throughout the period that you overlapped with him
00:46:23 him uh I think there was a period of time when it happened more fre quently and was it this period of time
00:46:34 yes you say in your witness statement uh that given the frequency of Lambert's meetings with management and this is a quote it's it's paragraph we don't need to go to but it's paragraph 148 of your WI a statement you say it seems likely
00:46:46 WI a statement you say it seems likely that the managers were aware of at least some of the issues he was dealing with yes so what issues what did you mean by issues
00:46:57 issues uh I would have meant there the fact he was under severe stress uh that he's going in an operation where you are looking at court proceedings might well be coming or or
00:47:09 proceedings might well be coming or or certainly major major criminality could be proceeding from from his Direction so you're saying the issues relating to
00:47:21 you're saying the issues relating to spark to the deams incidents yeah or wherever else they were thinking of uh deploying and so it's not a reference to sexual relationship no not at all not
00:47:32 to sexual relationship no not at all not in the slightest you say um of the deham campaign this is in your Hearn your signed Hearn statement you say that the whole matter was extremely hush meaning kept secret can you just explain what
00:47:44 kept secret can you just explain what you mean by that kept secret from whom uh well I think it was just kept quiet the basic principle is the need to know and I think it was an
00:47:55 know and I think it was an implementation of that process I didn't need to know uh and most other people didn't think to know and it was obviously uh that's that's what I mean uh pure and
00:48:06 that's what I mean uh pure and simple moving on now to your training uhhuh uh and the twice weekly meeting so I understand that you attended the twice weekly meetings when you were in the
00:48:20 weekly meetings when you were in the back office yes and did you go twice did you go to attend every meeting if I missed I miss very very rarely
00:48:31 in the handwritten notes from your hear interview um it says and I appreciate you didn't write these notes this was the person conducted the interview but it says if new guy came in had to be weary had to be
00:48:43 weary had to be careful um do you recognize that as something that you might have said to her
00:48:55 officers yeah that I can understand what I'm trying to say there I don't know I would have used those precise words well I I think I mean I don't know but I think weary might mean wary yes absolutely um but I
00:49:11 might mean wary yes absolutely um but I want to ask were you making the point or do you think you were making the point here that newcomers to the SDS were treated with weariness yes yeah and that's not just the SDS I mean that's quite usual in in police uh
00:49:26 quite usual in in police uh organizations why do you think that is uh just you're looking to see how the person is actually going to deal with things simple as that uh so did that apply is that what you experienced when you and John dyes
00:49:39 you experienced when you and John dyes attended these meetings were you treated with
00:49:47 with weariness yeah I think they they look at you uh and as you build up rapport with people then people relax a lot more right found that true in so many places
00:50:02 right found that true in so many places I've been to um that was going to be my question this how how did a weariness manifest itself was it just purely unfriendliness or no no it was distance uh no uh almost a formality uh right so civil but distant yeah to say did you feel
00:50:19 but distant yeah to say did you feel despite this that you could talk to the uos at these meetings about the role as you got to another right so it took can I ask how long did it take before you read roughly
00:50:31 long did it take before you read roughly before you felt you could go to them and ask for advice and tips hard to say I would would have
00:50:39 said after of weeks right and did you have to take the initiative or would they offer it up depending on personalities some would some would some wouldn't and these types of
00:50:52 wouldn't and these types of conversations that you had would it take place in the form of a group discussion or would you have one-on ones or a
00:51:03 or would you have one-on ones or a combination of the two combination right did any of the uos at this stage or did you or did anyone raise the issue of sexual relationships undercover no nothing was said about that no no not even a throwaway comment no
00:51:19 no and was anything said about the possibility of sexual advances when you were undercover so not
00:51:31 advances when you were undercover so not necessarily having relationships but the fact that people might proposition you no it wasn't I mean it sounds strange but no uh no we didn't didn't you say it sounds
00:51:42 strange I mean in hindsight given that we now know what we know yes do you think it is in fact very strange that it wasn't mentioned and why uh well
00:51:53 wasn't mentioned and why uh well certainly as is proven in so many cases these things did happen and and logically when you think of this number of supposed single men uh operating then you would have to be absolutely naive to to think that opportunities weren't
00:52:05 to think that opportunities weren't there and may on occasion have been taken uh but uh but that's how you you
00:52:18 taken uh but uh but that's how you you don't talk about these things you really don't uh and bearing in mind as time goes on you also get to know uh the officers individually so you don't really talk about such matters and and you are in a very very individual
00:52:30 and you are in a very very individual situation because when you leave that room whatever you are purely and utterly out on your own and so you don't observe anything you don't see things uh to do
00:52:44 anything you don't see things uh to do with the other officers so you are there other than when you see them yeah absolutely at the meetings yeah or at social events but we'll come to that um what sort of tips and guidance did they give
00:52:55 they give you officially none really yeah well did they give you any guidance for example just in case it drugs your memory about avoiding compromise for
00:53:06 compromise for example if they did I I can't remember any of it um trade craft any trade don't go into detail but any tips about good tradecraft there were things in the blue book but I don't remember anything in
00:53:18 book but I don't remember anything in the blue book about sexual issues but I'm I'm talking now just about verbal conversations you have with officers in the safe house before you deployed did
00:53:32 the safe house before you deployed did they give you any tips about tradecraft about
00:53:35 about compromise was there any conversation about that uh not really not really because going back to my earlier point about uh there is distance uh you're in a very very
00:53:50 distance uh you're in a very very particular frame of mind which is not to open yourself up at any stage and uh yeah maybe it's that but you said you did have conversations with them after a little while so what were those conversations what were they about uh
00:54:08 conversations what were they about uh appearance ideas about what you would do about your appearance because obviously you've got to change your appearance from what you were and also coming back the other way you've got to to change again uh so appearance uh issues about
00:54:24 again uh so appearance uh issues about what your predecessor might have done in respect to how they worked to get into organizations things like this right
00:54:32 we'll move on to the managers and whether you had training from them you say in your witness statement you had no formal
00:54:40 formal training but you had some some informal training from conversations with managers is that correct yeah it would have done
00:54:46 have done yes were you given any instruction about the sort of volume of reporting you were expected to produce like will you set some sort of oh we expect five reports a
00:54:57 some sort of oh we expect five reports a week no not at all nothing like that not at
00:54:59 at all was there any mention or discussion with the managers or by the managers about the nature of the police powers that were relevant to SDS
00:55:13 powers that were relevant to SDS deployments again I can't remember too much if anything uh I I I was aware I thought it was something that I did in promotion exams but I was aware of obviously the roles of a participating
00:55:24 obviously the roles of a participating informant I understand that was in the Blue Book which I do not remember in the slightest but that's no doubt where I got that particular idea right so we'll
00:55:37 got that particular idea right so we'll come we'll come to that um was there any did they give you any guidance on trespass for example on the circumstances in which no you could enter someone's home no no
00:55:49 um now you say in your witness statement that you did visit some of your fellow Tom members homes when you were deployed yes
00:56:02 yes um was that in what context was that was that for meetings or for social reasons both
00:56:04 both um and I mean did you have any uneasiness about that as a police officer entering their homes no under false pretenses as it were
00:56:21 no now please only answer yes and no to this hn 25 um and do not go into any detail but you refer to being tasked by 58 but when he was not in the
00:56:33 58 but when he was not in the SDS um to take something from an indiv it it's
00:56:35 it it's justed okay um but you were asked to take something from an individual's home just again do not go into any
00:56:47 home just again do not go into any further detail but were you given any guidance or was anything said about the legality of doing that no
00:57:04 and anything said by management about breach of confidence so taking confidential material
00:57:11 material no did they give you any advice on what to do if you're
00:57:18 arrested no no so but did you what did you understand you were to do if you were arrested did you understand you had to maintain cover maintain cover as far as possible and how if they didn't mention it how did you know that that
00:57:31 mention it how did you know that that would have been through conversations with other officers um did they talk you about compromise at all avoiding compromise
00:57:48 uh not unaware of no no well so I imagine your answer to my next question will be no as well but there was ever any sense of how important it was not to get compromised the ramifications of getting compromise so for example a
00:58:05 getting compromise so for example a security risk but that the unit might it might put the unit in Jeopardy it might embarrass are you fully aware that anything you did that redounded to the detriment of the whole unit could potentially lead to its folding and how are you made aware of that again by Common Sense understanding of what
00:58:22 Common Sense understanding of what you're supposed to be doing uh and also by conversation yeah and conversations with the managers the uos both predominately the uos uh but I don't remember people being arrested that regularly right uh so often what would appear to be a major
00:58:37 often what would appear to be a major topic of conversation wasn't because it simply wasn't occurring right um you say that you recall no training on Racial equality but you say in your witness statement that there was a growing awareness of the issue of race
00:58:53 a growing awareness of the issue of race because of the Broadwater Farm riots and the murder of PC Keith blakelock the previous year yes so um can I ask what did you mean the issue of race what did you mean by that exactly
00:59:14 uh the great public order problems that we were facing and continue to face uh for a long long period of time uh the issues
00:59:20 issues of members of a community of communities uh not being as willing to how can I say it to listen to a policeman rightly or wrongly so that's
00:59:35 policeman rightly or wrongly so that's how you saw it that there was a question the black
00:59:44 the black community any sort of community any any sort of community but you're referring here particularly to the well I'm referring to the issue of race particularly so can you just expand on that a little bit further the issue of race you mean the you mean the riots the issue rting terrible relations yes yeah which we're
01:00:01 terrible relations yes yeah which we're all aware of uh as I've said earlier in my in this uh this inquiry uh I've always been very interested in politics and the way how Society has changed and Society has changed usually uh in
01:00:12 Society has changed usually uh in composition in views uh in in Trends yeah and and in the rights of people it's it's uh the old days of you stand here and you stand there that they no
01:00:27 here and you stand there that they no longer apply um many ways for for the for the best um and you say that there was growing awareness of this issue of race yeah so but you were talking in the context of
01:00:46 but you were talking in the context of the Metropolitan Police yeah again can you explain how did this what do you mean growing awareness how did this growing awareness manifest itself
01:00:51 itself uh from the SCS point of view and from my point of view uh it wasn't huge because I wasn't particularly employed
01:01:07 because I wasn't particularly employed in respect to communities uh but uh but no you you were thoroughly aware that your colleagues were facing uh a changing
01:01:12 changing Society uh I'm aware that I was facing a changing
01:01:13 changing Society uh so common sense and and I'm aware as well that unbeknownst to us or
01:01:25 aware as well that unbeknownst to us or now prounce to us uh there was a lot of training going on in respect to such issues to the to the to the wider Metropolitan Police but you weren't you didn't no but we were aware of it right completely aware of it um you say that you were given no formal training or
01:01:37 you were given no formal training or guidance on how much you should involve yourself this is from the managers um in the private lives of individuals with whom you came into contact when deployed but does it follow from that that you got some informal
01:01:49 got some informal advice on the extent to which you should involve yourself in the private lives of people in your Target group uh not a
01:02:00 people in your Target group uh not a huge amount of stuff no a lot of it is is common sense and and your understanding of of what a police officer does and what his powers are but was anything you say not a huge amount but there was something said by the
01:02:11 but there was something said by the managers Val and it would have been very basic what can you remember what it was no not really no it was the flavor of it
01:02:22 uh obviously in respect to us for instance
01:02:24 instance uh you should not be any way an Aon provocator you should not attempt to uh cause situations which uh are of your own
01:02:38 own making uh and basically you should treat people properly uh and not not not try and egg them on to do things which they would otherwise not have done uh so
01:02:50 would otherwise not have done uh so anything about personal relationship I mean aside from the a Asian provocator about personal relationships that idea treating people properly was that raised in the mentioned in the context of personal relationships you might form no not really no that's
01:03:04 might form no not really no that's something that obviously I've been aware of throughout but the idea was you became friendly with people if they were people who were worthy of attention and there was no advice given on the parameters of that like how friendly you
01:03:22 parameters of that like how friendly you were supposed to get it's very difficult to give that sort of advice but no not that I'm really aware of uh was there any
01:03:23 any mention at this stage from managers of the fact that having sex with people in your target group in your undercover identity was wrong was morally wrong no
01:03:35 identity was wrong was morally wrong no but certainly the assumption that I made was that it was regarded as Wrong by managers but there wasn't any direct statement you should not do this why why did you have the impression it was regarded by wrong if I didn't well
01:03:47 regarded by wrong if I didn't well legally and morally to me it's wrong yeah so you think it's wrong absolutely yeah well I hoped at the time that that would be the case for most of my
01:04:00 would be the case for most of my colleagues and was there any mention at this stage of Rick Clark from the managers again as a cautionary tale about asexual relationships and compromise no no I I can't even remember when I first heard about Rick Clark it
01:04:15 when I first heard about Rick Clark it might even have been when I come off the unit you know he was deployed into troops out movement so yes but again I didn't know that at the time uh the only person I'd be aware of would be my immediately immediate predecessor
01:04:28 immediately immediate predecessor um right we're going to talk now about the Blue Book uh you say that you recall the existence of a ring
01:04:36 of a ring binder
01:04:38 binder um and you say it was in your Hearn statement you say you think it says tradecraft inverted commer but in your witness statement you say you think it was
01:04:51 statement you say you think it was called the Blue Book and you accept that it might have been it might be the same thing as tradecraft it might be like an early iteration of trade I think it's almost certainly the same thing um how did you become aware of its existence you mentioned that meeting with Docker
01:05:06 you mentioned that meeting with Docker at the beginning it was in the bookshelf in the general office and when were you first when was your attention first drawn to it when I was in the back office and how was your attention were you told this is an
01:05:19 attention were you told this is an authoritative yes yeah I can't remember who told me but certainly that that's how the conversation would have gone and did you feel what was the authority of it did you feel you had to follow the guidance in it or were you
01:05:31 follow the guidance in it or were you allowed to I can't remember hugely what
01:05:42 allowed to I can't remember hugely what it was but there were some things which uh at times seemed a bit simplistic uh and
01:05:46 and obvious uh and obviously as I said earlier that the participating in forment I'm I'm fairly certain was in there but I don't recall it um why are you fairly certain that that was in there uh because I've uh I think I've
01:06:00 there uh because I've uh I think I've seen it said that it was in there um but can I ask what context was it in there was it in the context of women with whom officers might have relationships that they would would be considered
01:06:13 they would would be considered participating in forance no so what in what can you remember the context in which
01:06:15 which this concept that you you didn't go and basically go beyond at the minimum of a participating inant or the maximum of that you mean as a police officer yes
01:06:31 that you mean as a police officer yes absolutely yeah no I I did not take that in the slightest fashion as being anything to do with sexual relations um you say that it contain basic information about getting to know your cover area yeah this is witness statement and shortcuts and getting
01:06:42 statement and shortcuts and getting identity documents was in Catherine's house was it your understanding that the contents of this folder were written by former
01:06:51 former uos that was sorry yeah that was my impression that it was a compendium of previous experience from
01:07:09 previous experience from uos and can I ask the tone do you recall like the tone of the information in it was it serious formal or was it light-hearted
01:07:15 formal you said in your witness statement you don't recall it containing much guidance on Behavior so does it follow from that that it did contain some guidance on
01:07:28 some guidance on Behavior quite possibly yeah well almost certainly yeah yes um and again did it contain any guidance on sexual relationships in your undercover identity not that I remember no not at all nothing on how to manage them if they occurred how too not I recall
01:07:50 no you say in your witness statement you quickly concluded that the blue book was not
01:07:51 not helpful why what do you mean uh I suppose when you're new in and it's a totally new situation you hope for that's breaking of the Dawn where
01:08:03 that's breaking of the Dawn where everything's going to be explained but obviously it doesn't it's something that you acquire over over experience and over a period of time uh so it it it didn't hold any shattering news to me
01:08:18 didn't hold any shattering news to me right so because it was bad advice or just because it was something that really you had to just work out for yourself there was only so much advice that could be imparted
01:08:29 that could be imparted very safe advice very safe sorry very safe advice to do with the the practicalities right safe what do you mean safe exactly well things which can't be argued about the fact that that you should know the area you live in
01:08:43 you should know the area you live in right well we don't need go into it yet we don't need to go into the I didn't there wasn't anything there that I regarded as as Earth shattering as revelatory no that wasn't common sense is that what you're saying yeah
01:08:54 yeah um just going back to this lack of guidance about sexual relationships from management did that strike you as odd at the time that it wasn't even mentioned didn't strike me as anything because I
01:09:08 didn't strike me as anything because I didn't even think about it but you know your detectives so your people who are you know emotion you meant to be sort of well versed in human behavior and the things that people get up to and the way
01:09:23 things that people get up to and the way they transgress um did it not cross your mind that there were obvious risks involved in asking young men to go into groups and pretend to be single where they'd be mixing with young single young women it didn't it really
01:09:35 single young women it didn't it really didn't occur to me sound makes me sound uh not quite fully aware but no it just wasn't something that was to the to the
01:09:47 wasn't something that was to the to the front of my mind and it wasn't something I was remotely interested well again we we'll come to that AG 25 but even if it wasn't at the front of your mind do you not think it's odd that the manager didn't even mention it I didn't even think about it from the manager's
01:09:59 think about it from the manager's perspective it just wasn't something which occurred to my little part of the world at that time now does it strike you as odd that they didn't mention
01:10:14 you as odd that they didn't mention it yes but 40 30 40 years later yes it does
01:10:16 does um in the h i again I don't think we need to go to it but in the handwritten notes of your Hearn interview again that were made by the person in interviewing you not May by
01:10:29 person in interviewing you not May by you uh there's a heading sleeping with women and a little way down from that your recorders is having said tension between being a cop and being an SDS officer people didn't ask many
01:10:44 officer people didn't ask many questions now I'll return to the point about the tension between being a cop and an SDS officer but in terms of people didn't ask many questions and given that this is Under The Heading sleeping with women
01:10:55 sleeping with women did you mean there assuming this is accurate that people just didn't really ask questions about sexual relationships that it was all sort of not really yeah
01:11:10 that it was all sort of not really yeah absolutely it it wasn't something which was a conversation point at all and by people I mean again not with understanding you didn't write this yourself but did do you think you meant their management or other uos or both in that context
01:11:21 that context UCS
01:11:26 UCS um can I ask you this was it your impression that the lack of guidance on sleeping with women in your undercover identity was deliberate so
01:11:37 undercover identity was deliberate so that management didn't want to raise it because actually they didn't want to Fetter officers in the ways that they gathered information do you think was that your impression at all uh
01:11:52 all uh again it's subsequent I I don't know that it was I think they were quite happy not to mention it for whatever reason uh I think that's certainly true why do you
01:12:07 why do you think they were happy not to mention it what gives you that impression uh embarrassment uh the fact that I don't know maybe they thought it going back to what we've just said about how when you've got men and women
01:12:18 how when you've got men and women together these things happened that maybe they they were aware things have happened in the past I don't know but certainly it wasn't a convers ation that they would have been easy with and I certainly don't remember them having that
01:12:33 conversation um if we'll go to this question of
01:12:40 um steps you took to deter a relationship so I think we probably do need to bring this up it's paragraph 36 of your witness statement uh that's MPS
01:12:56 uh that's MPS 07463 375 we could bring it up please um it's tab A3 sir of your bundle and Page 11 but yes paragraph
01:13:12 36 I'll just read that to you hn2 thank you very much um it says on one occasion during my deployment I went with my wife to the finsy Park area she may still have been my girlfriend at that time I decided that a glimpse of me in the
01:13:24 decided that a glimpse of me in the company of a young young lady was a sensible precautionary addition to my Legend while there was no immediate reason to do so I felt that adding a girlfriend was a sensible
01:13:39 step we can take that down now thanks when you say a sensible precautionary addition to your Legend a precautionary measure against what for to actually establish that
01:13:51 what for to actually establish that there was someone else in my life which could explain times of absence pure simple there was no sexual connotation whatsoever to that statement right so it was not in any way
01:14:07 statement right so it was not in any way deter no not in any way to deter Amorous advances anything and my next question is you said that adding a girlfriend was a sensible step so sensible you're saying because it would explain I'd be away with hers um can you
01:14:19 away with hers um can you recall at what stage of your deployment you did this you went on this trip to FY park with your girlfriend or wife sorry I'm not sure if you were married at this time yeah
01:14:40 uh probably 1988 quite early on and I mean as far as you're aware did you encounter anyone from your target group while you did this no this was predominantly for people in the flats I was living in at the time and obviously you're hoping that if someone knocks on the door from my target group and I'm
01:14:53 the door from my target group and I'm not there then whoever answers the door will say oh he's not in might be somewhere else right um did you was this something you did entirely under your own steam or did someone advise you no that's something I did under my instinct
01:15:04 that's something I did under my instinct right and did you discuss it with any of your colleagues or management before you did it not that I'm aware of
01:15:21 now sorry so did you did you disc did you mention it to your fellow uos no I don't think so right not cool um
01:15:36 now again in your witness statement uh again I think we should bring it up it's um paragraph 19 of MPS 0746
01:15:39 0746 375 it's page
01:15:43 seven
01:15:51 um I'll just wait for that to come up yes paragraph 19 thank you
01:15:56 you um you see I was not given for training or guidance on how much I should get involved with private lives of individuals this was left my discretion in common sense this is the key bit naive though it may sound the idea of sexual relationships wil deploy did not even cross my mind and I do not recall
01:16:10 even cross my mind and I do not recall any guidance being offered in any event it could not have been further from my mind because I started courting around the time I deployed into the
01:16:27 field so I wanted to put to you that the fact that you came up with this advice of a cover girlfriend suggests that sexual relationships did in fact enter your mind I mean even in the sense of trying to prevent them from happening but you're saying if I understand your evidence correctly that that wasn't why you did that well I say quite quite
01:16:39 you did that well I say quite quite definitely there the idea of sexual relations whilst deployed did not even cross my mind uh and no yeah uh so certainly if it crossed my mind it was
01:16:58 certainly if it crossed my mind it was way down way down in the deps because no right no um and just in particular this bit in any event it could not been
01:17:04 bit in any event it could not been further from my mind because I started courting around the time you deployed into the field so the sense there is that because you were involved in a romantic relationship apart put even putting your own ethical code to one side you also just had no interest in pursuing well that's tying in with a
01:17:18 pursuing well that's tying in with a naive bit I'm explaining naivity yeah yeah
01:17:20 yeah um but in your signed Hearn witness statement you say that you say something slightly different you say that sexual
01:17:32 slightly different you say that sexual relationships were not a factor in your area luck luckily as 95% of women that were in the field there were lesbians so that's a little bit different isn't hn2 because you're saying there that also or that they weren't a problem
01:17:45 also or that they weren't a problem because the women you were deployed with were not going to be sexually interested in you is that fair to say no no uh at no stage was I the slightest bit
01:17:56 no stage was I the slightest bit interested in a woman no that's ex I'm not saying that you would have been but I'm saying that nonetheless you did say you recorded and you signed the statement as having said that they weren't a
01:18:10 weren't a factor because 95% of the women in your group lesbians yeah but that's reinforcing the fact that it was never ever an issue for me p and simple but if they I mean putting to one side the propriety of saying 95% of the women in
01:18:23 propriety of saying 95% of the women in your group were lesbians if they hadn't been lesbians would then sexual relationships have been a factor no absolutely not not not for me not at
01:18:39 all I accept there's certain areas where there would be more what can I say uh temptation but to me it wouldn't have wouldn't have made no difference what
01:18:55 wouldn't have made no difference what areas do you conceive that there might have been more Temptation uh anywhere where people Anarchist type stroke things like that and why do you think there would have been more Temptation in those types of groups uh because they tend their living arrangements are
01:19:06 tend their living arrangements are different they tend to live in squats they tend to do things like
01:19:17 that can I ask just quickly this comment that 95% of the women that were there in the field were lesbians what what's the basis for that comment uh well for a start the percentage is is very open to to argument uh it was an area where there
01:19:35 argument uh it was an area where there were a lot of people that were lesbian I can't say how what percentage they are 95% is a is a huge percentage and probably way off Mark uh but yeah it's just a statement of fact um and how would you form the impression that a large number of women in your group of
01:19:48 large number of women in your group of lesbians because they had relationships with other women and you were aware of that through yes yes just through well basically through observation
01:20:00 basically through observation being there um we'll talk now just briefly about your appearance and changing your appearance uh so you you said that in the weekly meetings one of the things
01:20:13 the weekly meetings one of the things you discussed with uos was changing your appearance yes and you were advised to change it you just took it as a given that you had to change it I you accepted you had to change it uh yeah yeah um and
01:20:25 you had to change it uh yeah yeah um and you started the process of changing your appearance when you're in the back office is that right yes um you say in
01:20:38 office is that right yes um you say in your witness statement that the SDS paid for you to get your hair permed yes why because it's part of the cover why permed I mean in the sense that could you not just grow your hair my hair as
01:20:49 you not just grow your hair my hair as you see is very straight uh so the idea is to change it as much as possible right and it wasn't only permed it was died right um and you say you also got a clothing
01:21:02 um and you say you also got a clothing allowance so in this respect did you did you have to buy a sort of whole new undercover wardrobe was it the expectation that you would wear nothing from your own Wardrobe when you were deployed Robin sense said you wouldn't uh yeah right so yes
01:21:13 uh yeah right so yes uh the Wardrobe would well it's very Grand signning title but uh bearing in mind what we used to wear but it it wasn't hugely expensive right
01:21:28 wasn't hugely expensive right um and how did you explain your changed appearance to your family and friends
01:21:30 friends uh a lot of friends I no longer contacted uh so most friends you tended to lose very quickly because of the job yes uh family obviously that that's
01:21:43 yes uh family obviously that that's different uh they were aware I was a police officer I told them that I was undercover not in the areas where I was undercover uh and they accepted as such
01:22:00 right if we'll move now to creating a cover
01:22:05 cover identity uh in your Hearn interviews you refer to a template for obtaining a cover identity using the details of a deceased child do and by that do you mean the basic information that was in the St Catherine um about getting an
01:22:17 the St Catherine um about getting an identity from St Katherine's house that was in the blue book or do you mean just there was a very well established step-by-step process uh it sounds like the blue book version
01:22:30 version um and again was it were you directed were you told when it comes to creating this cover identity just look at the blue book or were you given any verbal
01:22:45 blue book or were you given any verbal advice about what to do uh pretty well I don't recall at this moment in time anybody doing anything other than following the blue book so it would have been yeah the blue book is the way you do it and management directed you towards that it would have been yeah I don't I can't Rec call exactly who said it but certainly if I had done something
01:22:59 it but certainly if I had done something different management would have said you don't do that okay
01:23:11 um I think I yes I need to bring this up so if if it's document MPS 0738
01:23:21 048 these These are the her notes of your interview and it's page four so it's a tab b39
01:23:29 um page four
01:23:40 please um so it's about five lines up from the bottom it just says I mean it's just I just want to refer it to you in the document it's actually a very short extract it says dead babies ID and then averted commas usual used 100% of the time can I ask dead baby's
01:23:52 100% of the time can I ask dead baby's ID was that your phrase that you use or is that a phrase of the possibly the the person who wrote this but do you recognize that as a phrase that was used I understand what it's meaning but but
01:24:06 I understand what it's meaning but but but I wouldn't personally use that but was it used in the SDS at the time dead babies I no not really it was a case of uh you took the details of a
01:24:19 a case of uh you took the details of a child who had done young died young uh now the actual phrase dead babies it might have been but I I certainly have not use it um it's a bit brutal I well exactly that's my point is
01:24:31 exactly that's my point is that if it were used in the SDS which you think it might have been do that suggest there was a slightly callous no approach I say it might have been but I do not remember a single case of someone using the phrase dead babies so the fact
01:24:47 using the phrase dead babies so the fact it appears here isn't because you a well coined expression at all right um you say your view on that phrase now is not a positive one yeah these are the notes
01:25:03 a positive one yeah these are the notes he wrote yes I understand which this is probably the first time I've seen this uh but yeah it's it's brutal it's not something that I would recognize or or agree with yeah um you say in your witness statement that uh using a
01:25:15 witness statement that uh using a deceased child's identity was not something that you actually felt comfortable with yourself because your mother had lost a child um and so I understand from that that that because of your mother's personal
01:25:30 because of your mother's personal tragedy you had some insight into what the families of the deceased children had suffered is that correct yes I mean he died before I was born so I can't say I was around when when this this tragedy happened but yes yeah yeah
01:25:42 happened but yes yeah yeah fully did you express to SDS managers that you felt uncomfortable about using a deceased child identity no did you
01:25:53 no did you feel that to do so would
01:26:02 have been unacceptable did you feel there was any option to say actually I don't really want to do this is there another way of doing it I don't think there was any other option that I was aware of at the
01:26:17 time can I ask you this if you did you feel that because you also you had a very personal reason for not wanting to do it or feeling uncomfortable I should
01:26:29 do it or feeling uncomfortable I should say sorry I don't want to put words into your mouth um did you ever consider raising that with SDS management no were you concerned that maybe if you had they might have thought you were a bit sensitive a bit
01:26:41 bit sensitive a bit wet uh I never consider raising it full stop and and there was no reason and no uh is it just because you this was the way it was done and you were just
01:26:53 way it was done and you were just following the this was the way it's done and also
01:26:54 and also going back to what I've said about White Lies you would hope you would do justice to the to the youngst so involved in terms of your performance
01:27:08 involved in terms of your performance and not not doing the wrong things yeah so that was in your mind yeah I didn't want to bring any sort of
01:27:17 bad connotations to the name whatsoever um again these These are in the H handwritten notes um sorry no that's incorrect they're not it's in the draft Hearn the draft version of your Hearn interview so I think you're aware there's a final
01:27:29 I think you're aware there's a final version there's a draft version I don't
01:27:39 version there's a draft version I don't think we need to bring it up but there's uh in that draft it says regarding your use of a DCI that you said I obtained this from just outside Newcastle but that didn't make it into the final draft so I'm just wondering do you know what that refers to uh the details of the child were from
01:27:54 uh the details of the child were from just outside of new right that that that basically that but did you travel to newcast yes I did yes I oh did you yes and why did you do that uh to acquain
01:28:05 and why did you do that uh to acquain myself with the area which I knew pretty well anyway right to further acquaint myself with it wasn't the areas in newcast I knew West West Newcastle and uh so this was further along the coast
01:28:17 uh so this was further along the coast right so you researched where the child yeah had grown up did you visit the place they were born I mean the area they were born in yeah which I had a a rough knowledge of right and did you do any other research when you were there
01:28:32 any other research when you were there no other than just getting to know the area knowing where one place was bit like the blue book really right one place was next to another right yeah which just went through there and can I ask why you did that uh just should anybody ask me oh yeah you you come
01:28:43 anybody ask me oh yeah you you come across someone who's from the same area uh subsequently then it's always good to know a little
01:28:55 bit also in this same document so this draft version of your home witness statement there's a bit where you say well you're recorded to have said I never obtained permission as such from
01:29:09 never obtained permission as such from any next of kin as this was simply not done and then it seems as if from any next of kin might be crossed out and anyway again it didn't make it into the final version but did you ever would you have felt easier about doing it if you had been able to obtain permission from next of
01:29:21 next of Ken yes but I don't know how secret the SDS would remain if if that were to be done but did it enter
01:29:32 that were to be done but did it enter your mind at the time just as something you you're aware you couldn't do it or you felt you couldn't do it I was aware I couldn't do it but it had entered your mind at the time possibly
01:29:52 possibly in your signed her interview you're recorded to have said that When selecting a deceased child's identity the longer they survived the better so is that the advice you were given yeah that was advice I was given again I don't remember by whom but it would have been someone in the management in the
01:30:06 been someone in the management in the back office the idea was the further you got away from the date of birth the longer it would take someone to track it down and you would hope their will to
01:30:20 down and you would hope their will to track you down would have been broken by then right and as far as you recall was that did did say that in the blue book as well it might have done but I certainly I got that information from somewh did your managers or colleagues ever mention or raise or discuss what
01:30:31 ever mention or raise or discuss what the families of the deceased children might feel if the practice ever came to light I can't specifically remember anything but again uh I suppose I've
01:30:42 anything but again uh I suppose I've been more aware of that since what's been going on in the recent past and uh
01:30:53 been going on in the recent past and uh yeah I feel terribly Sad But at the time at the time no not that I can remember did it just in case again in case it drugs your memory did it ever inform any confirm any conversation excuse me about compromise for example that one of the
01:31:07 compromise for example that one of the reasons a compromise was undesirable was that it might come to light the family might discover the use of the name I can't remember a conversation like that but I understand the logic to
01:31:18 that once you'd gone to St Katherine's house and you'd obtained this identity did you run it past management did they have to sign it off almost certainly yeah and again was that a
01:31:28 a perfunctory process uh did they test it in any way were there any considerations about its suitability or not I've seen remember one or two
01:31:47 not I've seen remember one or two questions but I think the the attitude was it's been done so often uh that uh that really it was it was almost a rubber stamp because
01:31:59 was it was almost a rubber stamp because you would getting some form of advice as it went along I don't remember who from but yeah yeah I i' set in my own mind how I was going to play it and that was that was I probably said it to the the
01:32:11 that was I probably said it to the the management this is who who it's going to be and that's how I'm going to do it um just briefly I just want to bring up this is the document that you received this morning hm25 it's um a minute from an SDS POC file on compromises which
01:32:25 an SDS POC file on compromises which actually I don't think is in your bundle um if you could bring up please MPS 0731
01:32:27 0731 061 and it's page
01:32:53 14 um just read the minute dated the 7th of APR no sorry no that's not right yes this is it uh the minute dated 26 26th excuse me of September 1989 um just quickly it says refers to some information it's a minute from
01:33:06 some information it's a minute from superintendent willingale and it says the information contained at another folio suggests that Jeffrey seed a producer of the channel 4 documentary 2020 Vision MI5 official Secrets banned by the IBA a few years ago studying the feasibility of producing a television
01:33:19 feasibility of producing a television program which would compare intelligence activities in the late 60s early '70s with those of the present day in this context Rick Gibson the cover named used by di Richard Clark when serving as an SDS officer in the mid-70s has again
01:33:38 SDS officer in the mid-70s has again been mentioned and reference made to the fact that privacy may be able to supply seed with a photograph of Gibson and some papers on the subject privacy a 1976 member of big flame and the subject of RF privacy was the person who in late 1976 challenged the SDS officer about his identity and
01:33:52 the SDS officer about his identity and produced copies of the birth and death C sorry certificates Rel ating to his cover name this resulted in Clark's immediate withdrawal from the field and then he says he sets out the
01:34:03 field and then he says he sets out the action points he says on what he's done so he says upon receipt of this information I made arrangements through esquad for the situation to be monitored and then at two he says apprised current SDS officers through acting DCI hm 109
01:34:17 SDS officers through acting DCI hm 109 and reinforced the instructions already given them regarding their contact with
01:34:33 given them regarding their contact with police Personnel Etc so that's the B I'm really interested in H25 do you recall at this time so if you could the date is sorry do you mind just pulling it down a bit sorry uh yes sorry yes the 26th of September
01:34:38 September 1989 do you recall hm 109 talking to you about this about the possibility of this television program being made and Rick Clark's compromise I can't recall it no
01:34:50 Clark's compromise I can't recall it no no do you recall again around this time a mention of Rick CL in the context of a light being sha on the fact of his use
01:35:01 light being sha on the fact of his use of a deceased child's identity I I can't recall it at all at some stage I was aware of Rick Clark in this incident now if it came then it's quite possible but I cannot say to you I definitely
01:35:13 I cannot say to you I definitely remember that being brought up right at this stage
01:35:18 right you say in your witness statement that you still have the certified um birth certificate and you provided it to us were you not told to hand that back
01:35:30 us were you not told to hand that back in at the end of your deployment no not not that I'm aware now no no no instructions about that no right if we move on now to cover accommodation um you describe that you initially found accommodation as a lodger in a house in Pond's end family
01:35:47 lodger in a house in Pond's end family and you say I think in another account that you spent a lot of time at your cover address when you were deployed yes so from that does it follow that when you were living in this house in Ponder's end you spent a lot of time
01:36:02 Ponder's end you spent a lot of time there yes and can I ask what did you do when you were there like were you interacting with this family yes I I was a larer right and uh yeah so did you eat meals with them on occasion yes did you watch television together on
01:36:16 watch television together on occasion uh and did you have sort of meaningful conversation I mean conversations that went beyond just superficial chat uh yes yeah yeah
01:36:27 just superficial chat uh yes yeah yeah and so when you had these conversations when you interacted with them were you entirely in your role totally in my own so you you if they asked you question about your politics then you would have
01:36:39 about your politics then you would have said yes I'm yeah supportive of British withdrawal yeah did you feel uneasy at all about this just about the fact that you were in this family's home project to be someone
01:36:56 home project to be someone else slightly yes yeah sorry uh yeah why why did you feel uny uh two reasons firstly uh it it's an imposition on the
01:37:08 firstly uh it it's an imposition on the family and secondly it was an imposition on me uh so those two things together yeah
01:37:09 yeah um can I ask why why did you decide to live in this type of type of initially I
01:37:21 live in this type of type of initially I had trouble finding somewhere right that was fitted all the the the proper prerequisites of location uh slightly away from the main area uh things like this was cost a factor at all not really
01:37:32 all not really no um you say that after a few months living there you were invited to their
01:37:44 living there you were invited to their babies christening so that suggests you did have quite a friendly relationship with them if they were yes so wanted your
01:37:50 your presence um why did you agree to go to the baby's christening because it' be rude not to did you tell your managers that you were doing this that you were planning to do it yes did you tell them in
01:38:03 tell them in advance uh whether it's in advance or subsequently I don't recall but they certainly were aware and what was I mean we again we're going to explore more detail di hm 109's views on this but generally
01:38:15 109's views on this but generally speaking what was their reaction when you told them uh initially didn't seem to make much of it uh but then as time went on uh quite right you said look you're too close right well we'll
01:38:26 you're too close right well we'll explore that so hm 109 took over his di a few months into your deployment and uh you say he visited your accommodation so
01:38:41 you say he visited your accommodation so he joined around October 1987 I think um but you say that he visited your accommodation in around late 1988 or early
01:38:46 early 1989 so that would suggest it's a while after he's become di do you think that's correct uh time SC sces I wouldn't be
01:38:58 correct uh time SC sces I wouldn't be 100% right on was it this did I suppose the question is was it your impression that he came to visit your accommodation not long after he became di as part of a sort of new approach that was my impression yeah right so it might have been a bit earlier than it could have been yeah it could have been
01:39:11 been yeah it could have been um now we know that he visited your accommodation did he tell you in advance that he was coming or did he just turn up now he told me in vones right and
01:39:22 up now he told me in vones right and what reason did he give you for visiting your car why did you say was going to visit uh I think at the time it was it was became a prerequisite of the
01:39:35 was became a prerequisite of the management to to visit our various cover addresses and what did you understand the reason for that to be uh I think there was elements well definitely there were there were cases in the past where cover addresses were not occupied by the person who said they were
01:39:49 person who said they were there right you think that was the main reason was it was there a security
01:40:02 reason was it was there a security aspect uh I think the main reason was to ensure that everybody was in the proper cover address that that's my view that was your impression that was my impression yeah when he visited did he meet the family that you were living with yes and
01:40:13 family that you were living with yes and so who did he say he was to them I can't remember I think it was someone from work and did you I mean did you and he then move to another room to speak privately or did he spend time with you
01:40:25 privately or did he spend time with you and the family together how did it play out don't really remember but I think almost certainly we didn't go to a spare room because it would make it look very much like a an inspection right so I mean it just from from the impression
01:40:39 mean it just from from the impression I'm getting this sounds slightly odd so the family were there you said that sorry what reason did you say did you give to the who did you say he was I think he would I think I said something along the lines of he was a colleague from work and so your
01:40:57 was a colleague from work and so your conversation you had in their family's hearing what did you say did you have just a completely artificial yeah totally artificial yeah yeah yeah right
01:41:09 um and was it a very brief visit yeah it would have been yeah yeah would have been now in your witness statement you say that he told you when he visited that you were getting too close to the
01:41:22 that you were getting too close to the family but it do from what you've said it doesn't sound like he did it right there and then because obviously that well no is so did you mean that he told you subsequently right and can you just shed a little more light on that
01:41:34 shed a little more light on that conversation what happened he just said look this isn't appropriate uh yeah it would have been in one of probably one of the two safe houses for one of a better word that he
01:41:45 houses for one of a better word that he approached it uh I saw his point of view and that was the issue was as he saw it that you were getting too close was that the problem that's what he said to me and you weren't annoyed you saw his point is that what you're saying uh initially I was annoyed because it it's
01:42:05 initially I was annoyed because it it's upheaval but obviously the the point was he was right he was correct and I moved um you say elsewhere in your statement that you consider this risk sorry this visit to have created a security risk because it exposed you to potential
01:42:16 because it exposed you to potential compromise why did you think this well every time someone comes in claiming to be someone they're not uh you just don't know how the individuals that are being visited are
01:42:32 individuals that are being visited are going to react uh you don't know if he's going to make any mistakes pure and simply that and was it your understanding that he was visiting all OS accommodation at the time and to the best of your knowledge did other uos
01:42:46 best of your knowledge did other uos resent these visits from him for the same
01:42:53 same reasons uh I'm fairly certain yes um how were you aware of that was this through conversations at the safe house title
01:43:00 tle was anything said to him about this was this resentment ever expressed uh not about that no
01:43:15 no you say that once you got married you spent marginally less time in your cover address I presume that's because you were married and you wanted to spend time with your wife well set up home yes yes um um and you also say that there was no overtime for spending the night
01:43:28 was no overtime for spending the night at your cover address so in a way there was no Financial incentive to spend the night there unless you had to yeah that's correct yeah yeah um so do you
01:43:43 that's correct yeah yeah um so do you think for you personally that acted as a disincentive to spend the night at your cover address is that fair to say you thought why the fact I wasn't getting paid yeah no not at all because I wasn't getting paid from day one for for sleeping over so so no it didn't make no
01:43:54 sleeping over so so no it didn't make no but that's that's what I mean is that in a way there was no good reason to sleep at the cover address because you weren't going
01:43:58 going to earn money from it uh money didn't didn't occur about it no didn't didn't make any odds to me
01:44:10 make any odds to me um a part from this single visit as far as you know did manage management monitor the amount of time you were spending at your cover address no so it was purely just a one your
01:44:22 no so it was purely just a one your understanding was it was a one-off visit just to make sure that the actual address that you had provided to the office was the address that you were in fact living in
01:44:33 fact living in yes um just briefly hm25 I'd just like to explore the topic of meetings with Senior Management when you were in the SDS just jumping ahead a little bit there's evidence in the documents that three assistant Commissioners came to
01:44:48 three assistant Commissioners came to the SDS safe house when you were in post so just look at them in turn you say that you recall a visit from assistant commissioner Hugh anisley yes uh he was imposed between February 87 April 89 so
01:45:05 imposed between February 87 April 89 so could have been any time I suppose April 87 um what can you remember what happened on that visit uh some uh what what questions did he ask he asked each and every one of us as I recall a question about our
01:45:18 as I recall a question about our particular field right he showed some interest uh he asked me because he himself was a southern Irishman uh he asked me about the issues in that I was
01:45:33 asked me about the issues in that I was coming across right uh and he was quite well regarded from his visit he showed some interest yeah like and he so he was aware of what you were doing and the way you were gathering this information yes um it's the same question about a visit
01:45:51 um it's the same question about a visit from the new special Branch DAC Ops John Smith that must have happened sometime around July 1989 this is recorded in a security service document but DCI gray reported this do you remember a visit
01:46:04 reported this do you remember a visit from DAC Ops John Smith when he became heads no I don't no
01:46:08 no um you also say that you recall a visit from DAC William Taylor and he took over from John Smith yes I do remember that yes do you remember that and again was
01:46:22 yes do you remember that and again was that similar to the visit from Pew anle did he ask you questions about your deployments what what uh yes he had a different personality to huanle he was a lot
01:46:29 lot more
01:46:30 more uh jovial right lot more I suppose Ladish would be an expression right uh he wasn't quite as in depth as as
01:46:41 he wasn't quite as in depth as as honestly so he seemed less well informed would you say I wouldn't have drawn that conclusion necessarily he just had a
01:46:52 conclusion necessarily he just had a different way about him he had more uh I suppose what what you see actually uh portrayed in so many police dramas of when someone a senior officer comes to
01:47:05 when someone a senior officer comes to to a place uh where there's a load of uh DCS and and that sort of thing right um just looking at the time uh yes I think
01:47:21 just looking at the time uh yes I think now sir might be a good time for a break then we'll have our usual quarter an hour break for the benefit of the transcribers
01:47:51 for
02:02:50 e e
02:03:46 hn2 um I'm just going want to talk to you very briefly about your STS managers having just spoken about senior special branch managers um is it fair to say
02:03:58 branch managers um is it fair to say that you weren't a great man of hn 109's management style yeah that's fair um in your witness statement you say hm 109 had an aggressive management style and was very competitive it was not possible to have a discussion with him he insisted on visiting every UCO at their recover accommodation and tried to move
02:04:14 recover accommodation and tried to move Me from Tom from troops out movement to the Irish Freedom Movement I did not trust him and found his approach to managing UCO very difficult I do not think I was the only one to do so I just want to unpack that a little bit it um when you say he had an aggressive management style what do you mean by
02:04:25 management style what do you mean by that exactly uh use of language use of gesture uh do you mean profanities no no not at all right rais
02:04:41 not at all right rais voices uh phraseology uh if I tell you to do something you will do something things like that and competitive do you mean with the other managers with the uos
02:04:50 uos uh I formed the impression because he had done jobs similar that maybe he was comparing himself with with what's there at the present right and I infer from
02:05:04 at the present right and I infer from that that he considers himself to have been a
02:05:08 been a superior uh not necessarily he just competitive right um You Say You mistrusted him in what sense
02:05:18 sense uh I couldn't see the reason behind trying to move me uh you mean targeting yeah right again we'll come on to that no that's fine though but you didn't
02:05:30 no that's fine though but you didn't understand the reason for that and is that because you felt he didn't communicate that to you uh no no and he didn't give me good reasons
02:05:44 reasons um the contrast with Docker as a DI was there a very marked difference then in their management style uh yes yes and Docker in what sense the docker was just more relaxed more
02:05:56 more gentle yeah uh well they say fair probably right wasn't quite so interested in managing in quite so many areas micromanaging is that a fair
02:06:09 areas micromanaging is that a fair description uh I think that's probably a little bit unfair because they're big events but yeah uh but yes yeah uh there's ways and means of doing it um Talk briefly about Martin gray who's sadly deceased you say on your witness statement that he was one of the best
02:06:21 statement that he was one of the best managers you ever had what was it about his management style that you likeed so much you could approach him he would listen and he would make a decision on the available evidence and the available
02:06:38 the available evidence and the available issues uh which I think is uh not always the case right and you say he was more willing than most to deal with issues including among the uos what issues are you referring to there uh it's hard to remember really
02:06:51 remember really uh what sort of issues might you go to him with for example uh well I went to him about the issue regarding my change of direction or alleged change of direction or
02:07:02 or alleged change of direction or putative change of Direction so and you were sympathetic I didn't move so yes um just briefly about Chris Hyde you he was the DS when you arrived in the unit you
02:07:13 the DS when you arrived in the unit you said good company but not necessarily a strong manager can I ask him what sense
02:07:24 strong manager can I ask him what sense was he not necessarily a strong manager uh is possibly too close to members of the
02:07:25 the field uh he likes to be one of the chaps one of the boys uh how did that manifest itself being one of the boys what banter
02:07:37 itself being one of the boys what banter yeah that sort of thing yeah yeah and so not a disciplinarian is that no no no um Chris suck Cliffe also sadly deceased you say that he took his role
02:07:48 deceased you say that he took his role as a DS very seriously and was concerned for the welfare of individuals what led you to believe that he took his job very seriously because he would talk
02:08:01 job very seriously because he would talk to you a lot he was a a very kind decent man and he talked to you about how you were feeling like about your welfare yeah he yeah at times he could go over the top on that but yeah yeah so what do you mean how could he go over the toob H
02:08:16 you mean how could he go over the toob H well sometimes when that wasn't anything that he might think there was something put it that way right okay but he was very he was alive to the possibility that you he was very very concerned for people yeah he was a genuinely good man here um we'll move now H25 to your targeting and tasking and you said in
02:08:31 targeting and tasking and you said in your witness statement you understood you originally intended to go into animal rights anarchism yes Arena so when were you given that information was that after you'd got the job you knew
02:08:42 that after you'd got the job you knew you had the job in the SDS but before you actually started yes it would have been that period yeah yeah and who told you this was that dockor I presume so I
02:08:55 you this was that dockor I presume so I can't remember exactly but it would have come from there and it most likely it was
02:08:57 was uh yeah yeah and there was a revision of your Target because you were involved in an arrest involving an animal rights
02:09:09 an arrest involving an animal rights yes a person involved in animal rights and it was then decided to direct you towards troops out yes can I ask when were you informed of this change in your targeting again was this before you
02:09:20 targeting again was this before you joined the SDS or yeah before I went to the back office definitely
02:09:27 yeah how did you feel about this change of Target did you have any feelings about it I was quite happy and why was that uh because I knew a fair bit about the Irish situation I'd been uh on B
02:09:39 the Irish situation I'd been uh on B Squad yeah which dealt with uh Irish related terrorism or Irish Republican terrorism uh so yes I I was quite
02:09:54 terrorism uh so yes I I was quite happy you say in your statement that you were directed towards Harring gay Tom because it offered significant opportunities is that what man SS management told you yes by speaking to my predecessor
02:10:07 predecessor um you were slow you say in your um witness statement that you were slow to make contacts with Tom uh you were
02:10:22 to make contacts with Tom uh you were deployed in uh October 87 and this is just from the reports we've obtained that in the bundle um the first report that mentions Haring gay Tom is dated the 29th of January yeah that's a film evening that you attend but the first
02:10:37 evening that you attend but the first report in which you're actually listed as a member is dated the 19th of February 1988 so it's from sort of late October to mid February that was the time period that it took you to
02:10:52 it took you to infiltrate so relatively slow I mean not terribly why do you think you had a fairly
02:10:54 fairly slow passage into the group because there was nothing public that I could attend uh you've got to be in a situation where it is not suspicious that you're there and there were no
02:11:09 that you're there and there were no public events held by that group in the period of time between me leaving the back office and actually making contact with
02:11:19 with them just jumping ahead you've touched on this topic already but in terms of your retargeting
02:11:25 um we're aware obviously from what you said here and also your witness statement that around made somewhere around summer spring summer 1989 hm 109 proposed retargeting you towards the Irish Freedom Movement and I understand
02:11:40 Irish Freedom Movement and I understand from what you've said he just said this is what's going to happen he didn't explain to you why he wanted you to move into another group yeah that's correct was it your impression at all that it's cuz he didn't think that that
02:11:53 that it's cuz he didn't think that that the Intelligence on troops out movement was particularly helpful I had no impression at all right so you were just told this was happening and there was no room for debate is that fair yeah
02:12:05 fair yeah um so you say that you spoke to Martin gray about this did Martin gray say that he would Advocate on your behalf no Martin gray listened to what I said he went away and in the fullness of time
02:12:18 went away and in the fullness of time the result came out through the tubes um now there's a document in your pack that
02:12:26 that actually makes it clear that the reason you well it states that the reason that you weren't moved was because of intervention from B Squad I don't know if you saw that when you were looking at your bundle uh yeah I do recall seeing
02:12:38 your bundle uh yeah I do recall seeing that yeah does that surprise you that b squad intervened or do you think that uh no that doesn't surprise me at all uh because that would have been the route for things to go from Martin gray to B Squad to find out what their opinion was
02:12:55 Squad to find out what their opinion was cuz the end of the day they were the the receivers of of the information I put in um now we'll move into your the reasons for your deployment uh from your witness statement it seems that your
02:13:09 witness statement it seems that your targeting well it had several it had a public
02:13:10 public order aspect but it also had a sort of
02:13:26 order aspect but it also had a sort of criminal intelligence possibly aspect in that it was seen as a way perhaps of garnering Intelligence on terrorist activity is that correct yes y
02:13:35 um yes I mean the way you put it in your witness statement is with emphasis on identifying potential criminality by certain members particularly anything contrary to counterterrorism legislation yep so that was the understanding you were given by managers before you
02:13:48 were given by managers before you deployed that was something to be looking out for
02:14:01 now it's clear isn't it that in after the troops out movement was set up after Bloody Sunday and it never advocated violence as a group did it not as a group
02:14:08 no and what it did advocate for was British withdrawal from Northern Ireland and for self-determination for the whole of Ireland yes that was that was basically it's one plank really
02:14:19 basically it's one plank really right but never Endor ing violence as a way of achieving British withdrawal yeah as an organization no didn't um so can I ask the focus on
02:14:33 didn't um so can I ask the focus on criminality or this suggestion that this would be something you would be trying to look out for does that reflect a sort of prevailing view in special branch and SDS at the times
02:14:47 SDS at the times that you would be coming into contact with people involved in terrorism uh certainly come in at on occasions yes uh but certainly coming in contact with people who supported organizations which involved themselves
02:15:03 organizations which involved themselves inter ter but when you say supported you mean actually offered practical support or just ideologically supported them uh probably more ideologically
02:15:19 uh now do you think is it fair to say because obviously these were troubled times there was a lot of terrorist violence M taking place do you think
02:15:30 violence M taking place do you think there was a prevailing view that any group that supported British withdrawal
02:15:44 group that supported British withdrawal must automatically be sympathetic to the IRA quite possibly yes yes do you think that was a view in special branch and the SDS at the time uh yes but I organizations are different to individuals uh so that the most certainly were people
02:15:56 certainly were people who did approve of violence uh most definitely as individuals within the group but you're distinguishing them from the group's policy uh a
02:16:16 from the group's policy uh a political Viewpoint is is obviously that which pertains to X number of people uh and as you say they were after British withdrawal from Ireland uh but there were people people within that group who who most certainly were approving of the Armed struggle but again they just
02:16:27 Armed struggle but again they just verbally as far as you're aware they approved of it verbally but they weren't actually involved in activities supportive of it yes yeah but obviously uh I don't
02:16:43 it yes yeah but obviously uh I don't know what information was subsequently used by B Squad as to as to further investigation um very difficult to say
02:16:57 investigation um very difficult to say you in your reporting sorry it well it's clear from your reporting but also from your witness statement that members of the troops out movement and representatives from other withdrawal movements met with people from Shin Fain is that correct did you ever go to any
02:17:09 is that correct did you ever go to any of those meetings uh I seem to remember that Shin Fain didn't have a presence when I was out and about in in the UK what you mean in the UK yeah in the in
02:17:20 what you mean in the UK yeah in the in not in the UK sorry Great Britain Great Britain yeah yeah uh but yes they most definitely did meet with members of shin but you didn't go to any of those
02:17:31 but you didn't go to any of those meetings is my point uh or did you I can't really remember I I don't think so right um there is in your reporting a sense of what took place at these meetings um in that there
02:17:46 place at these meetings um in that there are references to it's really to do with strategy in the S it's about building support a more Broad base support for British withdrawal from Ireland um and I
02:17:58 British withdrawal from Ireland um and I think there's a sense in one report that Shin faine criticized troops out and the other withdrawal movements for for following I think it's they say it's for not
02:18:09 not for following the sort of established line and not sort of trying to I don't know must up break new ground in terms of how to appeal to people does that resonate with what you remember that
02:18:24 resonate with what you remember that these meetings they weren't nefarious they were about essentially building support the main thing was to build support yeah uh most certainly uh but
02:18:35 support yeah uh most certainly uh but there were a lot of people who had very good
02:18:36 good contacts across the whole island of Ireland but I mean were you ever privy to any
02:18:44 to any intelligence about these contacts and any acity that they were undertaking that might be uh I can't name names no I can't
02:18:58 be uh I can't name names no I can't think of that uh but I was aware of
02:19:09 think of that uh but I was aware of individuals who certainly would be of great interest to to a special Branch um
02:19:15 Branch um there's I mean I accept that you say that a lot of your reporting is missing um a percentage of it but there's only in the reporting
02:19:26 it but there's only in the reporting that we've obtained you do refer you say that you think there may be one report that referred to a spotter from West Belfast yes do you recall that but that has
02:19:32 has survived um there's another report in which you mention an individual an old man who is sympathetic to the IRA in a
02:19:45 man who is sympathetic to the IRA in a group I can do you remember that and you say that he's scile yeah um but you now say that you actually don't think that was accurate and that he would have
02:19:56 would have provided a safe house can I ask why didn't you report because that's not in the report why didn't you report that at the time sorry report what sorry okay
02:20:07 the time sorry report what sorry okay I'm I'm not making this clear at all so let me just find the um reference H25 it is a report on sorry just bear with me
02:20:23 uh yes sorry okay I'll bring us up so it's MPS
02:20:26 it's MPS 0747
02:20:35 292 and it's uh tab c34
02:20:47 sir uh if we move on to the second page please and the page after that sorry
02:20:59 uh yes so it's a report on an individual and it says privacy will be attending the annual troops out movement delegation to Belfast for the anti- interment rally although not a member of Tom he regularly attends the public meetings of the haringay branch it's doubtful whether he would ever pose any threat to National Security since he
02:21:11 threat to National Security since he would appear to suffer from senility as evinced by his answer of the IRA to the question of which groups he would like to meet W wilst in belfar
02:21:32 um but in your second witness statement you say that this report's not accurate because this individual would have provided a safe house to the IRA but my question to you is why would you not have included that in the original report if that were the
02:21:44 original report if that were the case uh perhaps I didn't think about it I don't know in respect to the second report I don't I've not seen that one no there's not a it's it's your your second witness statement you seem to revise
02:21:58 witness statement you seem to revise your view all right okay so I mean sorry I'm I'm confusing you that in fact this your conclusion that you reach in this report that it's doubtful he'd ever pose a threat to National Security is actually wrong because you say and your second witness statement well actually I think he would have provided a safe
02:22:18 think he would have provided a safe house but my question is why not include that in the report at the time given there was so much violent terrorist activity uh I probably think that that's probably more accurate the one that I'm looking at here now the 21st of uh of of that year uh I couldn't say 100% that he
02:22:32 year uh I couldn't say 100% that he wouldn't uh I don't think any of us could but uh he would pose quite severe problems for anybody wanting to use him he would yes in respect to he was uh
02:22:45 he would yes in respect to he was uh what I would regard as someone who would probably cause more problems and prevent did
02:22:52 did you through your deployment come across did it give you any access to people who you understood to be involved in assisting
02:23:08 terrorists I do think there were people yes that I would say have assisted
02:23:19 yes that I would say have assisted terrorists definitely uh I'm not certain whether I can mention them here uh no don't mention them but were you ever privy to any information that did assist in the as far as you're aware in the investigation of terrorist inci
02:23:35 investigation of terrorist inci incidents that were taking place at that time or the prevention of them
02:23:41 uh I can't say that I'm aware of any particular operation
02:23:53 though I mean it's fair to say H25 isn't it that your reporting there isn't as far as we can see from the reporting we've got and even from the reporting that you've identified as missing there isn't actually very much information at all is there on criminal activity or people supporting
02:24:07 criminal activity or people supporting criminal activity in breach of terrorist legislation is that fair I think it's fair to say that the majority of of the information I give is information which will lead to further inquiry and that
02:24:19 will lead to further inquiry and that further inquiry I do not know whether it took place or whether it didn't take place uh there was a lot of information
02:24:31 place uh there was a lot of information went in uh whether subsequent operations were started on the back of it I don't know right I've got no idea um in any event I mean just going back to this report that I've brought up
02:24:46 uh it says although not a member of Tom he regularly attends the public meetings of the harringay branch um oh sorry I sorry I'm ignore me we'll move on from that
02:25:00 sorry now can I ask in terms of the lack of information I mean that we see you say that you might have provided sort of starting points for investigation but generally speaking the vast majority of your reporting on Tom is about matters
02:25:11 your reporting on Tom is about matters that do not involve terrorist activity it's about events that they're planning and strategy yeah that's fair yeah did
02:25:22 and strategy yeah that's fair yeah did you at any point during your deployment have a conversation with management about
02:25:30 about whether about the fact that you weren't actually coming across a hot bed of terrorist activity uh no because I didn't think it applicable uh because as I say I don't know what other investigations are taking place elsewhere but it's fair to say that most of the reporting was not about that it
02:25:42 of the reporting was not about that it was about quite anod activity yeah and public order and public order one of the the big things but I'm just trying to explore whether or not given that you say one of the explicit aims of your
02:25:57 say one of the explicit aims of your deployment was to look into criminal activity the fact that from the evidence you weren't obtaining a great deal of information if any that that was ever discussed with
02:26:08 any that that was ever discussed with management no you're never going to be a member of a ASU or anything like that no not at all or even have information on them no no no you wouldn't no but did what I'm saying is did management ever say well this was meant to be a purpose
02:26:22 say well this was meant to be a purpose of your deployment but actually it's not really bearing fruit was there conversation like that say that at all no
02:26:26 no no okay if we move on to public order um so this was a another reason
02:26:39 order um so this was a another reason for your deployment you say and uh it was
02:26:40 was believed that your deployment in the group meant that you'd be able to obtain intelligence which might help maintain public order is that fair to say yep but but you also say that troops out
02:26:54 but you also say that troops out movement did not itself pose a risk to public order they would not be the aggressors um can I ask did you were you aware of that before you were deployed into the group is that something
02:27:05 into the group is that something management said to you or was that something that became became obvious to me as I as experience came there right so okay
02:27:19 um if we just look first I mean at the their potent for causing public order it's fair to say isn't it hn2 that troops out movement was not a mass movement by any
02:27:31 movement was not a mass movement by any stretch of the imagination no it wasn't there and actually the numbers the membership numbers were actually incredibly small yep um I mean I can give some examples you in your
02:27:42 I can give some examples you in your reporting again we don't need to bring it up
02:27:43 it up but at the National Conference there actually only this took place in April of 1989 there only 50 attendees and there's other reports where you set out the membership numbers
02:27:58 where you set out the membership numbers where Lester's got 14 Sheffield's got 20 birmingham's got 12 Norwich has got 35 but they're all from the University of East Anglia um and at an all London and
02:28:10 Anglia um and at an all London and regional meeting held in East London in 1990 there only three it said that in in Camden
02:28:21 three it said that in in Camden Islington West London and Harring there only F four or five active members so this is not a no it's not a mass no not not any Str of the imagination um and in your debrief you said there only 150 to 200
02:28:33 debrief you said there only 150 to 200 members nationally so it's it's was this something accepted by management that actually it's not a large movement at all and therefore has very limited capability for posing any sort of risk
02:28:45 capability for posing any sort of risk to public order uh I think it's accepted it was a small small numbered organization uh compar to other
02:28:57 organization uh compar to other organizations around at the time I don't know they' probably be not far off one of the bigger ones you mean British organizations supportive of British withdrawal no I mean British organizations politically oh right I
02:29:10 organizations politically oh right I would have thought that probably uh they they would stand their own as regards numbers
02:29:28 numbers uh yeah it's not a mass movement yeah at all um is it fair to say also that in fact any risk to public disorder was posed by the right wing essentially protesting either attacking marches in which Tom was involved that was one of the the situations yeah
02:29:42 the the situations yeah um and the members of Tom the troops at move they were actually scared of the extreme rightwing would you agree with that uh they certainly wouldn't want to get involved with them put it that way um
02:30:02 um so I'll just take you to an example so it in essence okay just to row back a tiny bit Tom themselves would never incate any violence that was what you saw you do say that there were some
02:30:14 saw you do say that there were some members of Tom who were also members of other groups so red action for example who might get involved in violence uh red action I'm trying to think I can't can't really remember many that were in red action as such right uh the problem with red action was they were an
02:30:25 with red action was they were an offshoot of the Socialist Workers yeah and the idea was that they had a British solution for Ireland which of course was totally against what the troops out movement thought yeah and my point is
02:30:39 movement thought yeah and my point is though that troops out there were clear lines between troops out and members from Red action that whereas certain individuals may have been interested in violence troops out did not want to be associated with that at all uh
02:30:51 associated with that at all uh yeah yeah but again it's very difficult to speak about the entire organization from what you saw yeah I didn't see any any pugilist as such no
02:31:04 didn't see any any pugilist as such no um so from your reporting it seems that yes troops out movement were actually quite scared of the extreme rightwing and especially after a terrorist incident on the mainland because they feared sort of reprisal attacks I think
02:31:21 feared sort of reprisal attacks I think they're always scared of them respect of what's been going um I'll just bring up some documents uh if we could look at for example um ucpi
02:31:34 30033 this is a report dated the 25th of March 1988 so it's at tab
02:31:45 c18 look at paragraph 2 which reads sometimes during the week beginning Monday the 21st of March 1988 a member of the national front attended a trade Trade union Resource Center in Birmingham and asked for information about the troops out movement the
02:31:56 about the troops out movement the individual concern was recognized by someone employed at the center who has formerly worked for or has access to search light photographs as a result of this discovery only vague information was
02:32:06 was proferred then paragraph three this information which has been transmitted to all Tom branches in the United Kingdom is causing consternation within the ranks it is not known whether the inquiry in birmingh is the work of an
02:32:17 inquiry in birmingh is the work of an individual NF member or Branch whether it is part of a nationwide NF policy the occurrence has been linked by Tom to a
02:32:28 occurrence has been linked by Tom to a possible NF reaction to the slaughter of the two British soldiers at the funeral of Ira volunteer Kevin Brady on Saturday the 19th of March 1988 in
02:32:39 the 19th of March 1988 in Belfast so it's correct isn't it H25 that shows that they were it was something they were aware of was this possibility of national front oh yeah they were always aware that the national front would would be very very anti istic towards them and
02:32:53 very very anti istic towards them and physically antagonistic that there was AIS violence from them the opportunity we'll just look at one more example so if we go to MPS 0747
02:33:14 365 sorry can we bring that up please 0747
02:33:19 0747 365 and it's a report dated the 8th of March 1991 s it's a tab
02:33:27 c164 um next page
02:33:37 please this reads paragraph two um on Wednesday the 6th of March 1991 from 6:00 p.m. until 7:00 p.m. at the White Hall sw1 opposite Downing Street the troops out movement held a picket to
02:33:48 troops out movement held a picket to commemorate the third anniversary of the killing of the jalter 3 there are about 30 persons and this relatively low attendance was caused by a lack of advanced publicity due to fear of right-wing opposition following the recent mortar attack on Downing Street those present chanted incessantly
02:34:00 those present chanted incessantly accusing the security forces of murder the picket ended prematurely at 7 when the roads in the immediate area were closed we can take that down now so
02:34:11 closed we can take that down now so again that's another example isn't it of the fact that they were even willing they would even resile from publicizing some of the events they had for fear of violent attacks from the right wing
02:34:28 violent attacks from the right wing uh does it say that they actually didn't publicize or whether it says but there was low attendance because they self pleased and didn't turn up uh yeah well Humanity
02:34:48 though
03:15:15 e e
03:16:18 uh I'm sorry about the Hiatus which has occurred um but it has resulted in an order which I am now going to um State expressly uh there must be no disclosure or publication made of the information
03:16:35 or publication made of the information stated during the hearing today between 1218 and
03:16:37 1218 and 12:28 that's the 10 minutes before we
03:16:49 12:28 that's the 10 minutes before we broke I asked to remind you and I do um because it is a serious matter uh uh that anyone who disobeys this
03:17:01 order May attract a serious Consequence the consequence may be that the uh Disobedience may be certified to the high
03:17:13 high court which may hold that a person who has disobeyed the order uh has been in contempt of the inquiry with the consequence
03:17:29 that the penalties which flow from breach of a high court order will potentially also flow from
03:17:40 order will potentially also flow from breach of this order the consequences are
03:17:44 are imprisonment a fine or the seizure of assets
03:17:51 further anybody who knows of this order and does anything which uh helps uh its breach may also after certification by me be subject to similar
03:18:05 me be subject to similar penalties I sorry to have to read that out um but I've been asked to do so and I do so because the consequences of breaches of orders of this kind are
03:18:18 breaches of orders of this kind are serious and I do not want anybody uh to be in any doubt uh about the seriousness
03:18:29 be in any doubt uh about the seriousness and I hope and pray that nobody will put themselves in a position where I may have to do anything uh to invoke the consequences that I've just
03:18:41 consequences that I've just outlined we'll now rise until 5 to 2 when we'll
03:18:45 resume e