Joint testimony from Hilary Moore and Jane Hickman about their involvement in Lambeth Women for Peace, Greenham Common Women's Peace Camp, and the Greenham Women Against Cruise Missiles litigation. Both witnesses describe non-violent direct action training, their experiences with peaceful protest, and the impact of discovering they were under surveillance by HN33 "Lee Bonser". Key themes include the philosophy of non-violent protest, the nature of women's peace activism in the 1980s, breach of legal professional privilege, and the disproportionate police response to lawful political activity.
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00:23:37 may I ask um is there going to be any intention to refer to the material that may not be um made public no no in in that event I need any read out the first part of the uh the uh the usual warning
00:23:48 part of the uh the uh the usual warning uh everyone will know what I'm going to say apologies um those who've got electronic devices uh may use them to
00:24:00 electronic devices uh may use them to transmit silently what they hear in the hearing room but only after 10 minutes minutes has elapsed that is supped to coincide with the live link which is going to transmit what happens here but only after a 10 minute delay electronic
00:24:11 only after a 10 minute delay electronic devices may not be used for recording or photography yes are there any rule 10 questions there are no rule 10 questions from me
00:24:22 there are no rule 10 questions from me sir yes sir I just have um two areas of question and I'm going to ask the document one of the documents that was uh uh brought up uh number
00:24:34 number 3694 2 uh particularly about nvda training if I
00:24:51 can yes uh do you have the the the document this was the document Miss Moore that you were taken to um concerning uh the the training for nonviolent direct action and uh I I
00:25:04 nonviolent direct action and uh I I already wanted to um talk you through or or or give you an opportunity to fully describe the nature of the the trining
00:25:16 describe the nature of the the trining because uh certainly uh yesterday during the evidence of hn 65 there was um the non-violent direct action
00:25:27 um the non-violent direct action training done by CND and are you able to say whether this was cnd's training I'm afraid I'm not no um uh I really can't remember and I haven't got a record of where this one came from I
00:25:39 a record of where this one came from I think I've got another um document and I don't know which went with which actions I'm afraid okay um but just just really in terms of understanding it uh if one
00:25:55 in terms of understanding it uh if one was to gain the impression that this was about how to do direct action um was any part of the training for example about how to cut fences or
00:26:12 example about how to cut fences or anything like that oh goodness no and so what was the focus of the training that was being
00:26:15 was being given um it was very much about supporting each other in a in a situation and very much as well about police um too you know if there was to
00:26:34 police um too you know if there was to be any arrest that um you you um tried not to make the situation worse for yourself and also or for the police person involved as well you know but um yeah very much it was about um a
00:26:45 yeah very much it was about um a solidarity I think as well of um just watching out for each other um in terms of the training itself um and exploring feelings about
00:27:01 itself um and exploring feelings about it okay okay and the sort of things that were being contemplated there uh certainly one can see if one goes to the second part under
00:27:15 actions it refers to weaving wool link arms singing lying down uh raises the question about will you talk to the police or be
00:27:26 you talk to the police or be silent how will will you keep
00:27:41 silent how will will you keep warm will you work in shifts what do you like eating and so forth what what what was the approach that these triggers were seeking to to to to lead or or educate you about it clearly it does look like a a a typical sort of greenham action where um I mean on these kind of training
00:27:53 I mean on these kind of training occasions too there would probably be quite a lot of women um um I don't know if this was mixed or not whether there were men um who hadn't done anything like that before so there were
00:28:05 like that before so there were suggestions there of things that you might do which seem typical of greenh and weaving the spider webs you know linking arms around the Bas and
00:28:17 Bas and then right towards the bottom of the page there's some points pairing with a group is one form of peacekeeping can you remember what what
00:28:28 peacekeeping can you remember what what you were being told or taught so far as that was concerned sorry I'm struggling a bit with the sunbe in my eyes here
00:28:39 a bit with the sunbe in my eyes here okay over in Bristol pairing within a group in one form one form of peacekeeping each person can look after their partner knowing in advance what situations they find really upsetting
00:28:57 situations they find really upsetting and being able to support them yeah it sounds like go on I was just going to say it sounds like good Common Sense really doesn't it you know looking out for people to ensure that it really is a nonviolent activity and um just keeping
00:29:11 nonviolent activity and um just keeping what keeping an eye on other people and then there was a suggestion about earrings long hair and pigtails can cause a problem if going limp on a rest
00:29:24 cause a problem if going limp on a rest you may get dragged Along by them do you remember anything about what was being said about that well sadly that did happen a lot around greenham common and it got worse um after the end around 83
00:29:41 it got worse um after the end around 83 I think you know there was a lot more of handling of um women at greenham um I think we saw something of it in a extract of a film um in the opening statements and people did get injured I
00:29:52 statements and people did get injured I mean the feeling was amongst us that in retrospect you know that the political Stakes have been up and the government um coming in more heavy-handed but um we're obviously trying to protect
00:30:03 we're obviously trying to protect ourselves and each other with those instructions sound very sensible yeah
00:30:14 instructions sound very sensible yeah watching out for earrings and long hair that might be pulled there were some horrible
00:30:15 horrible incidents yes well now then you were asked about your cooperation with the
00:30:26 asked about your cooperation with the authorities and the police and I'm going to ask the uh uh uh document number 3695 is is brought
00:30:34 up this this I think is a document that you yourself
00:30:41 exhibited yes it's a rough draft a very rough draft of a letter to the council yes and I I just wanted to ask you about this was this this is a draft that you kept in your possession having written to the
00:30:52 to the council yes and did you write to the council in the terms identified in this draft I imagine so I do know that um uh
00:31:03 draft I imagine so I do know that um uh Jane Hickman and I um did this approach to the council together and had meetings with them so I might have had some discussions with Jane before it went off
00:31:22 discussions with Jane before it went off I think and Jame might have um a copy of a letter to that it relates to this and and were you in any way seeking to be obstructive in in with with the the authorities in relation to the activity that you embarked upon absolutely not
00:31:33 that you embarked upon absolutely not just um as described you know I think we were going out of our way um to um not cause the any kind of trouble and be on the right side of things get the public
00:31:48 the right side of things get the public on the right side and the council too um in terms of where we situated ourselves cleaning up after ourselves on the common which we did do very tidily you know we wanted to keep the Council on our side and meet with them to disc discuss how we might best go about
00:32:02 discuss how we might best go about locating the camp what would be the best part of the common to put it on Etc yes well thank you very much that that concludes my questions only and I only say this if there is
00:32:13 only and I only say this if there is anything you feel you need from your evidence to clarify to S John mitting now it's the opportunity to do so was there anything that arose during the course of the morning that you felt needed any clarification at all I think
00:32:28 needed any clarification at all I think most things have been covered thank you thank you very much I understand that I may call you Hillary without offense yes prefer um Hillary thank you
00:32:41 offense yes prefer um Hillary thank you very much for the assistance that you've given to me um you you have I'm you probably do understand that um bringing events of 40 years ago or so to life
00:32:53 events of 40 years ago or so to life with live Human evidence is immensely helpful and I'm very grateful to you thank you thank you we now have to rise again for a moment or two to enable the hearing room to be set up for a live witness not off off a screen thank
00:33:26 you
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00:38:18 okay I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but and nothing
00:38:39 but can you state your full name please yes it's Jane Hickman my name is Rachel Naylor and I'm one of the inquiry Council who's going to be asking you questions this afternoon you made a witness statement to the inquiry dated the 22nd of December 2023 of 99 pages and there are 17
00:38:53 2023 of 99 pages and there are 17 exhibits that have been published is that statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief it is that puts the whole of your witness statement into evidence we need only dwell on certain parts of it
00:39:05 dwell on certain parts of it now by way of introduction to you I think it's right that you've been a solicitor since 1977 yes and you worked in various
00:39:22 1977 yes and you worked in various positions in the fields of employment law and housing law and in 1980 you joined the legal aid firm Fisher Meredith yes this is the period of your life that we're going to explore a little more this afternoon but thereafter you were the founding partner
00:39:41 thereafter you were the founding partner of the firm Hickman and Rose in 1991 yes and in 2007 you were appointed as a commissioner on the Legal Services Commission and you retired from the Hickman and Rose partnership in 2016 and have been non-practicing since
00:39:54 2016 and have been non-practicing since November of last year is that correct uh yes save that um I did end up getting a
00:40:05 yes save that um I did end up getting a practicing certificate and returning to practice I think in January last year and I'm still a solicitor practicing solicitor you were involved in three groups reported on by hn33 greenham Common women's peace Camp
00:40:17 hn33 greenham Common women's peace Camp Lambeth women for peace and the greenham women against cruise missiles yes so I understand if we could look firstly in more detail at greenham common women's peace camp I think it's right that you were first
00:40:33 I think it's right that you were first introduced to greenham Common when you represented some women who had been arrested at greenham common for occupying a Sentry box in 1982 we've already heard mention of this in the summary of Rebecca Johnson's evidence yes that's
00:40:48 yes that's correct and you describe in your witness statement that representing those women for that occupation of the Sentry box renewed your interest in the politics of peace and disarmament yes so is it right that your professional
00:41:01 so is it right that your professional engagement with greenham common LED you to a personal engagement with it yes and your association with greenham
00:41:12 yes and your association with greenham continued for another three years um yes broadly I think you've said in your witness statement you were involved in greenham common as a solicitor from 1982 to 1985 still sometimes giving advice in 1986 I was yes and your personal
00:41:26 1986 I was yes and your personal involvement in green common as an activist was more like 1982 to 1983 probably yes and what was the balance of
00:41:40 probably yes and what was the balance of the two for you between professional and personal involvement in greenham common I would say it was more a professional engagement and I was very supportive of
00:41:55 engagement and I was very supportive of it and very enthusiastic about it but I had a huge amount of work professional work and I was therefore only able to give my time to greenham on rare occasions can you help us in a general sense with what your perception was of the aims of greenham
00:42:11 common I think it was always very clear that um it wanted to win o win over the public to the view that nuclear weapons
00:42:22 public to the view that nuclear weapons were an unmitigated threat to peace both nationally and internationally and that the sooner we could negotiate away the better and the purpose of doing that was to put
00:42:34 purpose of doing that was to put pressure on politicians to arrive at the same
00:42:36 same conclusion was there an element of greenham that was a feminist element in terms of a self-governing feminist Community yes that was very strong it was integral to
00:42:55 greenham can you help us with how greenh and women decided what actions they would take how was decision making taking place at greenham well I wasn't privy to the decision making at
00:43:10 wasn't privy to the decision making at greenham as it went on so what I learned about it was in retrospect and often through representing women but I understand it was done around the campfire because if you were to visit greenham then when you got to the yellow
00:43:25 greenham then when you got to the yellow gate there would almost always be a fire burning certainly in the period when I was there and a lot of women sitting around it was very informal but on occasions they'd gather together and and make decisions about future plans was
00:43:37 make decisions about future plans was your understanding that those plans were openly discussed or discussed in secret openly I would say was there any difference in that where it was a big
00:43:52 difference in that where it was a big planned event um where lots of people from all over the UK were attending versus a spontaneous event in terms of the openness of secrecy of the discussions well I think it's a bit difficult to say I
00:44:04 think it's a bit difficult to say I would say that there were different core groups at greenham um and any of them might sit down and and plan something spontaneous and it wouldn't necessarily extend to those who weren't resident or
00:44:19 extend to those who weren't resident or they're a fair bit as far as that group was concerned um but there was no way that people got women got barred from
00:44:32 that people got women got barred from being at Green and more participating in decision making was there a difference in the openness of decision- making where the planned actions were illegal versus legal I don't believe so the whole point of doing illegal action was to draw public
00:44:45 action was to draw public attention in terms of your personal involvement in greenham common I think in your witness statement you've said that you attended one demonstration in December 1983
00:45:00 December 1983 yes and you camped twice at greenham common yes I think I was at a demonstration I was at the um weekend of embrace the base in 1982 as well so those were the two weekends when I was at greenham and
00:45:19 weekends when I was at greenham and camping twice yes I remember one was the December 82 demo and I can't remember what the other one was and is that really the extent of your personal involvement in greenham common uh well I know I visited the camp on other occasions because I would sometimes see
00:45:33 occasions because I would sometimes see witnesses there and I might go there if I was down at court and you've made clear in your witness statement that you made it clear
00:45:51 witness statement that you made it clear at the time that you weren't prepared to break the law yourself in terms of your own involvement that's correct turning to your involvement in greenham as a solicitor can we look please at a document ucpi 14796 so it's B8 the Jane Hickman bundle
00:46:15 14796 really I just want to look at paragraph three of this document but put it into context 27th of November 84
00:46:27 it into context 27th of November 84 meeting of Lambeth women for peace oh yes 18 women were present yes and paragraph
00:46:28 paragraph three describes you Jane Hickman solicitor for the green and common women's peace Camp will come back to the
00:46:42 women's peace Camp will come back to the detail of this report later yes what was your role as a solicitor in relation to the greenham women um well I represented individual greenham women and I represented those
00:46:53 greenham women and I represented those individuals who formed themselves into green and women against cruise missiles um but couldn't say that I was a solicitor for the peace Camp because it didn't in as an entity instruct
00:47:05 it didn't in as an entity instruct anyone What proportion of greenh and women did you represent Can you estimate that minute fraction were there other solicitors involved in representing
00:47:18 solicitors involved in representing women from Green greenham common peace Camp I think not initially um but by the summer of 1983 I think there were other firms in olved
00:47:30 think there were other firms in olved what kind of offenses were women charged with that you were representing um always very low level um there was breach um breach of the peace
00:47:51 there was breach um breach of the peace which wasn't actually a criminal offense it would be a civil under the 1381 justices act I think um criminal damage obstructing the highway way perhaps and of course the uh theft of the US Air Force
00:48:09 bus and I think there were also civil cases that you acted on yes relating to trespass injunctions and bylaws yes approximately how many greenham cases civil and criminal did you act
00:48:20 cases civil and criminal did you act in well numerically actually I I can't really remember um I I know there were three or four main
00:48:31 three or four main ones and but there were a host of little ones you say in your witness statement that over time the women gradually began representing themselves yes and there was little more you could usefully do for greenham clients by mid to late 1985
00:48:50 yes to your understanding and without breaching the lpp between you and your clients why would green and women break the
00:49:02 the law well they always expressed it to me in terms of an overwhelming conviction that the horror
00:49:15 overwhelming conviction that the horror and damage of nuclear weapons being used was so grave and such a genuine threat that it was necessary where appropriate to break the law in some minor way to draw
00:49:32 law in some minor way to draw attention to the threat are you able to speak to whether whether they did this lightly I think it varied I think initially it was a I think for everybody it was a serious decision but certainly as time went on some were rather more flippant about
00:49:48 it let's look now at Lambeth women for peace we've obviously heard in detail from Hillary Moore this morning you were involved I think from late 1982 or early 83 through to the second half
00:50:03 or early 83 through to the second half of 84 is that sound right yes and after July 1984 You' said in your witness statement from that point onwards you
00:50:15 statement from that point onwards you attended very few meetings very few yes but remained a sympathetic support yes how did you come to be involved in Lamberth women for peace I can't remember how I learned about it but it was very shortly after it set up um and I'd had the
00:50:28 it set up um and I'd had the introduction of the first um the Sentry box case and I felt very enthusiastic about the cause so when I heard there was a local Group which meant I'd be
00:50:40 was a local Group which meant I'd be able to participate more fully I eagerly seized the opportunity and rolled up at one of their
00:50:49 meetings and what was your role in Lambeth women for peace um well I was just a
00:50:56 just a member were you involved in protests and pickets and things like that yes I did go on some protests and pickets I do remember being outside the Imperial War Museum on Hiroshima day um I remember picketing outside
00:51:12 picketing outside sainsbury and I know there were a few others I can't bring to mind and of course the peace camp and the St Matthews day and so on we'll come on to
00:51:27 Matthews day and so on we'll come on to looking at some of those were plans made by Lambeth women for peace discussed openly or kept secret no they were discussed
00:51:34 discussed openly and what was lambath women's for pieces relationship with greenham from your
00:51:36 your perspective it was hugely
00:51:47 perspective it was hugely supportive I know Hillary's described how um it became one of a number of causes over time and that was happening by the time I left but I don't think its loyalty to greenham ever wavered
00:52:01 greenham ever wavered are you able to assist us with whether a planned action at greenham um was communicate was always communicated with lwp how how good was the communication between greenham and
00:52:17 the communication between greenham and lwp well it was a bit difficult to know because much was going on at greenham that wouldn't be raised at lwp but I wouldn't always know about it I would think lwp
00:52:28 think lwp would have been contacted whenever one of the major actions was contemplated where the women at greenham wanted to bring in big crowds from the outside and there were also back
00:52:44 outside and there were also back channels of communication because really the whole of the women's peace movement was some kind of network there were many nodes and contacts between different groups and
00:52:55 groups and women we've already seen this morning and I don't think we need to turn it again but hn33 in her witness statement says in order to report on the greenham
00:53:08 says in order to report on the greenham common peace Camp without having to camp out permanently there I infiltrated lwp a support group do you agree that the choice was either to Camp permanently or access through a support group no I
00:53:23 group no I don't do you cons sorry go on well I was going to say I don't think it was ever legitimate to go and plant herself in a
00:53:34 legitimate to go and plant herself in a group that was not any threat to public order and wasn't subversive didn't want to overthrow democracy simply because it was convenient and saved her from what she
00:53:46 convenient and saved her from what she perceived as the need to go and camp in a damp sleeping bag um it's like moving into somebody's spare room because you've decided you're going to surveil the family
00:54:11 discussions you've reference this but elsewhere in hn 33's witness statement she says lwp represented a challenged public order in their numbers and ability to cause disruption from your
00:54:23 ability to cause disruption from your perspective do you agree with that I I think it's nonsense I did much public order work and uh public disorder would break out only if participants either wanted to or weren't committed to
00:54:38 to or weren't committed to nonviolent action it just seems a ridiculous assertion can we look at non-violent direct action for a moment please we've heard a lot about it over the last
00:54:50 heard a lot about it over the last couple of days can you assist us with your perspective on what the concept purpose nature of non-violent Direct action was yes well I think it had a
00:55:01 action was yes well I think it had a much longer history than the documents indicate I know the committee of 100 which was um an offshoot of CND in its very early years used nonviolent direct
00:55:13 very early years used nonviolent direct action the idea is direct action is some form of political protest that has either physical proximity to the object of the protest or some symbolic relationship with it so that's direct
00:55:27 relationship with it so that's direct action the nonviolent bit it is setting out with a determination that your protest is not going to end up with fisticuffs and bricks and polic knocked over and in order to do that you have to
00:55:43 over and in order to do that you have to be you have to think it have to think it through carefully certainly I think for the male protesters that was the case much less so for the women protesters who wouldn't necessarily if shoved wouldn't retaliate whereas the men obviously tended to um and so that it was a it was a
00:55:57 to um and so that it was a it was a method of testing it wasn't a movement you said it has a much longer historical context in your mind and to your
00:56:11 context in your mind and to your perception did nvda develop in any way During the period of your involvement with greenham common or Lambeth women for
00:56:18 for peace I think for me that was one of the attractions of both that the direct action bit was so creative
00:56:30 the direct action bit was so creative I think in a way we were nonviolent as feminists whatever we were doing um but the the sort of playfulness of many of the protests that were going on was
00:56:44 of the protests that were going on was what was so attractive because it was a much better way of getting people's attention and getting them to listen and people would be much happier to have a leaflet from you if you were dressed
00:56:58 leaflet from you if you were dressed smiling and dressed as a teddy bear than if you were holding a a a placard and looking rather
00:57:06 menacing were you ever part of conversations about what came within the concept of non-violent direct action such as cutting the fence whether that
00:57:17 such as cutting the fence whether that fell within that definition well I don't remember being present at any organized discussion of cutting the fence obviously I had a lot of clients who
00:57:28 obviously I had a lot of clients who were cutting the fence so it was a daily reality to me um um I I certainly don't remember being present when it was planned and that's partly because people would keep it away from me because I was quite clear about my role because of being a solicitor yeah yeah to your
00:57:45 being a solicitor yeah yeah to your knowledge did Lambeth women for peace or greenham common actions ever involve violence
00:57:47 violence never not on the not on the part of the women I think the police were very rough
00:57:58 women I think the police were very rough and the soldiers were were were prepared to assault I know on the embrace the base protest in December 1982 um I was shaking the fence I'll happily admit along with other women we just rattled it and made a noise and
00:58:13 just rattled it and made a noise and pointed out that we were we were present and um the soldiers were coming up inside the fence with confiscated bulk Cutters and trying to hit you on the hand if they hit you on the hand with one of those fingers would break and a number of women ended up with broken
00:58:25 number of women ended up with broken fingers that was the sort of thing that went on there and a police officer would you know there were often police watching this never said anything which I thought was a bit
00:58:41 I thought was a bit strange can we look at public disorder now you say in your witness statement you never heard of any public disorder at greenham how are you defining public disorder when you say that I
00:59:06 think disorder is when people engage in threatening or intimidating Behavior or actually engage in some physical altercation um that frightens people harms
00:59:17 um that frightens people harms them and where it can't simply be stopped by saying please stop that um that would be my definition of disorder I can't remember the actual wording off hand but I know cpf have
00:59:30 wording off hand but I know cpf have quite a neat explanation amounts to that in your witness statement public order um sorry intended to penalize the use of violence or intimidation is what you've quoted
00:59:38 quoted yes we heard from hn 65 about encircling the air base with a human chain to your mind would something like that involve public disorder
00:59:55 no you said that you never heard of public disorder at Gree en to your knowledge did any Lambeth women for peace actions involve public disorder
01:00:07 peace actions involve public disorder no I'd like now just to outline greenham women against cruise
01:00:19 missiles this was a group formed in June 1983 I think is what you said what was the purpose of greenham women against Cru
01:00:20 Cru missiles it was a a group of women who wanted to take the legal argument into court
01:00:32 argument into court against the initially they were interested in in legal action against the UK government but on reflection it would work much better and was more appropriate against the US government
01:00:48 appropriate against the US government which actually was going to supply the weapons was the purpose of the litigation to win some kind of Remedy or was it part of political action
01:01:01 both can we look at ucpi
01:01:03 ucpi 14442 ucpi 14442 it's b19
01:01:19 sir yeah it should come up on your screen this is a report dated January
01:01:27 1985 now I I just want to look at paragraph four please where you're described as Jane Hickman the instigator of the whole case against President
01:01:40 of the whole case against President Reagan is that a fair description of you no what was your role in relation to greenh and women against cruise missiles I was one of the lawyers working on
01:01:53 it I think it's right that you formed a claimant group to bring this well claimant group was formed rather to
01:02:05 claimant group was formed rather to bring this action how many people were in that group I think it was about 20 and in general terms who were they
01:02:08 they um they
01:02:17 um they were I think there was one woman who was presently um resident at the base who was Rebecca Johnson um and the rest were either former residents or those who'd visit
01:02:29 former residents or those who'd visit vised um most of them had been to prison as a result of a protest at greenham and I think it's right that the group set up fundraising teams in the US and the UK yes and you've described
01:02:44 and the UK yes and you've described there were three fundraising and support teams what did they do broadly
01:02:46 broadly um they
01:02:51 um they organized written publicity and they undertook speaking engagements and launched Appeals for funds wherever they
01:03:06 funds wherever they could was hn33 any part of These Arms of the group no I don't believe so did she attend any greenham women against crew meetings to discuss the case no because we didn't hold public meetings we were pretty much a closed group because this was
01:03:26 litigation can we turn now to hn33 she reported on Lambeth women for peace and greenham common between 1983 and 1986 so I think it's right that you and Lee bonser would have overlapped from
01:03:42 Lee bonser would have overlapped from when she joined in summer 83 to about 1985 when you broadly moved on from these
01:03:44 these groups yes I didn't attend meetings in 85 I don't think except for one at the
01:03:57 85 I don't think except for one at the beginning do you remember Leon sir I do yes and can you help us with anything about her role in Lambeth women for peace or greenham common well again she seemed to me to be just another member she was a very helpful member and she took took the minutes pretty often are
01:04:10 took took the minutes pretty often are you able to comment on whether she would have taken the minutes home or is that a level of detail that you I would
01:04:21 level of detail that you I would remember she had a car um did she ever drive you to any actions no because I had a car as well and I think both of us would have driven everywhere for one reason which is we had to make sure we were able to get back at a particular
01:04:35 were able to get back at a particular time do you have any re recollection of her entering your home no but I know I am she was in the group when I invited them all to a party
01:04:48 group when I invited them all to a party at my house and I can't remember whether she attended or not did you view her with suspicion at the time no not really because I never thought that anything we do did remotely approach the kind
01:04:59 approach the kind of activity that the police would be interested in I was clearly wrong in that you described in your witness
01:05:10 that you described in your witness statement an incident where Lambeth women for peace um tried to test hn33 with a um an incident on a bridge and to see whether the police would be
01:05:21 and to see whether the police would be an attendance do you have any personal knowledge of that I have only the vaguest recollection of the aftermath I can't remember it being planned or set
01:05:32 can't remember it being planned or set up can you remember when it was no and what's your memory of the aftermath well there was just chat about Lee a bit
01:05:44 Lee a bit of speculation but a lot of that anyway was quite humorous so and what did you think to that speculation at the time
01:06:08 I think I think it was said and not only on that occasion that we had nothing to hide so what would it matter anyway
01:06:11 anyway hn33 mentions you in various reports but I want to look at one which um is solely about you ucpi 14763 B17 sir ucpi 14763
01:06:44 this report stated the 23rd of November 1984 and reads Jane Hickman a member of lamb lamth women for peace and one of the solicitors who act for the women peace Campers at greenham common air base is the registered keeper of a beige Volkswagen Golf motorc Car gives the registration and her address is already
01:06:58 registration and her address is already recorded how do you feel about the fact that a report has been submitted on you retained in special Branch files and distributed to
01:07:18 MI5 I mean I was a gassed when I saw this I think it's quite chilling I I can't see any legitimate reason for needing to know what car I
01:07:28 drove I don't know what they were planning or what might have happened or even what did happen as a result we can take that report down now
01:07:42 result we can take that report down now thank you I want to look briefly at the peace camp on clap and common which I think you might already have referen this was 21st to the 24th of May 1983 just before Lee bonso turned up at
01:07:57 1983 just before Lee bonso turned up at lambath women for peace you shared some photographs of this event ucpi 3 7 036 so it should be an
01:08:01 a15 ucpi
01:08:14 37036 I think first of all we've got a banner if we can go to page two
01:08:23 please unfortunately they're in black and white but are you able to help us with what's depicted here yes that was the Peace camp on Clapham common with a
01:08:36 the Peace camp on Clapham common with a banner I can't remember that may be a no litter sign at the front uh well I know one of the photos has a no litter sign which was very typical of Lambeth women for peace and there's a group of women having a chat
01:08:48 there's a group of women having a chat on one side the way they're standing it rather looks like there's members of the public there because the everybody's in a sort of orderly disposition does this
01:09:04 a sort of orderly disposition does this give us a sense of the size of the peace Camp yes yes very much can we there's another
01:09:05 another one thank you and Page four
01:09:25 please I think you've said at the bottom we can see a music group playing oh yes that's I believe it's the women's fall out marching band it was called mildly anti-nuclear music group page six
01:09:46 please can we see at the top of public address that's taking place yes during the
01:09:49 the event and Page seven please
01:09:59 at the bottom what what can we see here um that's one of the members dressed up uh in a way that was often adopted for demonstrative purposes
01:10:12 adopted for demonstrative purposes showing what you might look like after being
01:10:14 being slightly uh
01:10:22 irradiated to whom was this peace Camp advertised before it took place um well I think it was quite widely advertised I think it was in city limits the current affairs magazine and
01:10:45 the current affairs magazine and um we got it in wherever we could I know it was um covered on local radio and as it went on it was being reported in local
01:10:49 local papers and you've described there was a minimal police presence there yes I don't even well I I think as Hillary said I don't remember any police being there at all it just wasn't that sort of thing was there any disorder none
01:11:06 thing was there any disorder none whatsoever is this typical of a lambath women for peace event it's it's pure Lambeth women for peace we can take that photograph down
01:11:17 peace we can take that photograph down now thank you and we know that one month after this event Lee bonso joined Lambeth women for peace I'd like to look at an event which I think you've already referenced hoshima day in 1983 which is the 6th of
01:11:34 August if it assists your di that you've provided to the inquiry indicates that you were there that day and I think you have a memory of it can we look at ucpi 1
01:11:43 1 9362 it's B3 sir 1 19362
01:11:58 we can see this is a lambath women for peace meeting on the 27th of July 1983 eight women attended and paragraph three the first action the women are taking is
01:12:13 the first action the women are taking is on the 6th of August 83 hoshima day when they intend to sit outside the Imperial War Museum Lambeth Road se1 at present only six women have committed themselves to attend and this is intended to be a peaceful
01:12:25 peaceful action and then can we look at another hn33 report can I sorry sorry could I just comment on that of course because
01:12:36 just comment on that of course because this is typical of the sort of reporting that goes on we're going to sit outside the Imperial War Museum I can remember that day reasonably clearly because it
01:12:47 that day reasonably clearly because it was baking hot and we were stuck in the standing in the sunshine outside the Imperial War Museum um in that heat
01:12:57 heat and it it it's the word sit we weren't going to sit there because a sitting down is what you do when you want to block the road and we weren't trying to block entry into the war museum we were
01:13:11 block entry into the war museum we were using the location because that's a form of direct action it's a place you know it commemorates war and war is what we're protesting about there are many exhibits inside in fact I think greenham has its own exhibit inside the Imperial
01:13:25 has its own exhibit inside the Imperial War Museum now um why is it reported as sitting it's a a ridiculous notion but that's how the reporting seems to have worked all the way through so you dispute the accuracy of I do that yes
01:13:38 dispute the accuracy of I do that yes yes can we look at another hn33 report about the same event ucpi 19381 so this one C8 in the h& 33 section
01:14:06 this is the day before the action the 5th of August 1983 in hn33 submits a report Lambeth women for peace will stage a peaceful demonstration outside the Imperial War Museum at 12:00 noon on Saturday the 6th of August to
01:14:19 Saturday the 6th of August to commemorate Hiroshima day about six of the participants will be walking with their banners to the museum from an address the home of two individuals both of whom are active members of the group as they have not informed the
01:14:32 group as they have not informed the police of this part of the demonstration they do not intend to walk in the road the group hoped to be joined by women from other groups including
01:14:43 women from other groups including Greenwich CND and balam greenham women's group which may increase their numbers to about 20 and paragraph five please after sitting outside the museum for some time possibly until it is closed the women intend to walk to Tri
01:14:57 closed the women intend to walk to Tri fala Square via Parliament Square where they will join the silent vigil organized by the Hamstead World disarmament
01:15:10 disarmament campaign is there any anything in this report that you dispute the accuracy of well I think again the sitting I don't think we were planning to sit but
01:15:21 don't think we were planning to sit but otherwise it seems do you remember there being 20 people no I wouldn't have said it was that many but that's you know memories so faded but I don't think it was that many it says that the police haven't been informed of this part of the demonstration had they been informed
01:15:36 the demonstration had they been informed about any part of the demonstration well that seems to suggest that they had certainly been warned about the bit at the end walking to chaala square since the distinctions drawn
01:15:52 square since the distinctions drawn between what the the the bit the police haven't been told about and the report says that it's a peaceful demonstration was it a peaceful demonstration oh yes
01:16:05 entirely can we take that document down please I'd like now to look at some different lwp actions can we go to ucpi 19362 it's B3
01:16:17 19362 it's B3 sir 9362
01:16:29 this is the document that we had just been looking at but can we now look at paragraph five
01:16:36 please on a general basis it was decided by the women that they should concentrate on a campaign of painting slogans on walls and Pavements protesting against the location of
01:16:47 protesting against the location of cruise missiles in this country these will be directed at American targets such as the embassy the American Express office and American Bank
01:16:58 do you consider this to be accurate
01:17:04 reporting I think this is the meeting that I'm not sure that I was at I don't think I was at because I if I was there I would have disagreed with that in which case I would have expected it to
01:17:19 which case I would have expected it to be minuted since there was apparently an interest in me um you are listed on the bottom of the report as being in attendance at that meeting that's right this is the
01:17:33 that meeting that's right this is the one that I disagree with the suggestion that I was present because I think the Lambeth women for peace minutes show four of us present which doesn't include me that's most mysterious to me do you remember any
01:17:47 remember any discussion of painting slogans on walls and Pavements at lambath women for
01:17:55 peace the thing was that the group really was a a Perpetual brainstorm so you would throw out every all the women who were there would throw out all the
01:18:09 who were there would throw out all the creative ideas they had for some form of political action that would capture the imagination and we'd talk about them maybe or you know some just wouldn't get picked up so there were there were discussions of all sorts of world
01:18:20 discussions of all sorts of world possibilities the thing was we couldn't decide on what we were going to do when we turned up somewhere because you can't make binding decisions in a group that's entirely
01:18:34 entirely voluntary that has no fixed membership when you don't know who's going to be there and who may the people who do turn up may have very different ideas from you so the idea of deciding to do something like that doesn't seem very
01:18:51 something like that doesn't seem very plausible it's different when you decide on a campaign we'll all Camp campaign against this or that you can sort of then navigate by that but this is no I don't believe this happened in the way that it's expressed did you act as a
01:19:03 that it's expressed did you act as a solicitor for members of Lambeth women for
01:19:04 for peace
01:19:06 peace um I know I acted for individuals on occasions did you ever represent anybody who'd been charged with um graffiti or
01:19:19 who'd been charged with um graffiti or using paint in protest at Lambeth women for peace no and I don't believe that happened I would have known about that because um I would have been the one who was
01:19:35 contacted can we look at the UTC pickets that yes Lambeth women for peace organized United Technology Corporation we looked at this with Hillary Moore this
01:19:45 this morning you say in your witness statement that you do remember discussion about this kind of event because you thought there was an oddity about it can you elaborate on that for us in terms of the subsidiary
01:19:59 us in terms of the subsidiary well I I always thought it was strange because of course the subsidiary was
01:20:13 because of course the subsidiary was owned by a weapons manufacturer but the subsidiary and its staff really would have no control about uh who it was owned
01:20:17 owned by um would have no influence over it that I could see I'm not sure that my objection was terribly logical I think it was more of an emotional objection to the
01:20:29 more of an emotional objection to the the notion it just seemed too remote to me and not terribly appealing it was more time standing on the pavement and then having to explain why you were there in the first place um so you you do remember some
01:20:41 place um so you you do remember some discussion about UTC within lamth women for peace can we look at a document ucpi 20420 so it's B10 20420
01:21:07 well this is a a note of a meeting a report of a meeting on the 14th of August 1984 we can see at the bottom of the first page your name is there as a person being
01:21:21 your name is there as a person being present but I think that your evidence in your witness statement is that you weren't present at this meeting
01:21:27 I'm sorry I I can't see it well enough we zoom in much of it bottom of thank you your your name is listed the following women are identified at the meeting and your name is there but
01:21:40 the meeting and your name is there but your evidence in your witness statement is that you you don't accept that I'll take you to that might be helpful if I could look at it in your witness
01:21:53 could look at it in your witness statement it's paragraph 181 and I think also 172
01:22:23 yes yes
01:22:33 can we look um well firstly at paragraph two just incidentally the the meeting was at South London Hospital for women the women have decided that whil the hospital is occupied by those campaigning they will hold all their meetings on the premises is this an
01:22:49 meetings on the premises is this an example of another action that Lambeth women for peace supported the South London women's hospital I think it was just a decision hold the meetings there I don't think it was specifically an
01:23:06 action if we can turn paragraph five please proposals for the type of action to be taken against UTC are still very much at the discussion stage however it would seem that most women are in favor of direct action against the building at 43 clap and road for example paint spray
01:23:17 43 clap and road for example paint spray graffiti followed by a continuous picket on the other side of the road with large banners or placards the women decided at the meeting that no discussion of the
01:23:28 the meeting that no discussion of the form of action should take place over the phone and that the name of the company I.E otus elevators should not be used
01:23:40 used and your position I think is that you don't accept you were at this meeting I don't believe I was
01:23:55 no I think I would I would certainly have objected to the idea of paint spray on Clapham Road especially as the demonstrations were going to take place in rush so we would be displaying the spectacle of a number of us being dragged
01:24:10 dragged away having left graffiti on a building in Clapham road which already wasn't a very attractive Road and I would have thought this is not going to win hearts and
01:24:23 Minds so your evidence is that this intelligence report is inaccurate because you weren't there but perhaps you can't speak to whether that was a brainstorming idea someone put out oh I
01:24:34 brainstorming idea someone put out oh I think it could easily have been but and it often well I won't say it often was it was the sort of thing that would get said because people had different ideas of what was appropriate it wasn't in the culture of
01:24:48 appropriate it wasn't in the culture of Lambeth women for peace as I knew it to pick up on them and adopt them um and I think a number of us would have said no no that isn't a great idea
01:25:02 have said no no that isn't a great idea it may be that that did happen and I did say it and it's not being recorded but that's not uh terribly satisfactory either we saw this morning a document I put up with Hillary Moore that in fact the picket was placards and Banners and
01:25:19 the picket was placards and Banners and that's her memory of it as well yes that was a later decision I I see there is a later decision that says not paint but banners which does does seem to suggest that there had been a pro paint
01:25:31 that there had been a pro paint discussion but how far it had gone but I think at least it demonstrates that Lambeth women for peace wasn't generally very favorable towards painting on the walls in
01:25:40 walls in Lambeth did you attend any of the UTC pickets yourself no and I was dropping out by then I think it was possibly a
01:25:51 out by then I think it was possibly a contributor to my feeling that I should move on because I did have these other cases and engagements that were calling to
01:25:59 to me we talk about Cruise watch were you ever in attendance at at a cruise watch event were you ever called on the
01:26:14 event were you ever called on the telephone tree we saw that your name was included no and I'm I don't accept that that was a telephone tree for cruise watch I think it was the Lambeth women for piece telephone tree it would have been used for cruise watch as it was used for many other things but if you
01:26:28 used for many other things but if you think back to then there was no internet there were no mobile phones there weren't even pages so if you wanted to contact other members of the group between meetings and you wanted to reach
01:26:39 between meetings and you wanted to reach most of them you had to have a telephone tree so it's how groups it's how politics it's how everything it was probably how the golf club kind of got word around as well you'd have to be very well resourced to
01:26:51 you'd have to be very well resourced to have somebody sit there for a couple of hours and ring all the members one after another so the telephone tree is a cheap way of ensuring that communication does take place on cruise
01:27:10 take place on cruise watch you heard Hillary Moore's evidence this morning that I pulled up the 1986 SDS annual report which stated that brake lines had been cut on a cruise
01:27:23 brake lines had been cut on a cruise Convoy to your knowledge did any Cruise watch action cut any brake lines will you ever
01:27:24 you ever aware of that it seems an extraordinary suggestion because they would often as I understood it be women lying down in front of a missile launcher and you
01:27:36 front of a missile launcher and you really don't want to be cutting the brake pipe lines in a launch you're going to lie down in front of it just doesn't it doesn't ring true to me but of course there could have been
01:27:49 of course there could have been many people who would have done it who weren't
01:27:50 weren't necessarily associated with greenham is cutting break lines consistent with the kind of action that you associated with greenham never not in one's wildest
01:28:09 dreams can we look at some more detail relating to green and women against crew now can we have up please ucpi 19646 so it's c23 in hn 33's bundle ucpi 1 9646
01:28:40 this report is dated the 28th of October 1983 green and women against Cruz hold a current account with the national Westminster bank and it gives the account number although the present balance of the account is not known the
01:28:55 balance of the account is not known the women collected £3,000 approximately at the recent CND demonstration in London hn 33's evidence on this is that she can't recall um how she came to know this
01:29:03 this information but it's possible she took the proceeds of the collection from the CND demonstration and thereby obtained the bank details are you able to help with how she would have found out the
01:29:16 with how she would have found out the greenham women against cruise missile Bank
01:29:17 Bank details no I've no idea and I I I hadn't seen this um report it wasn't part of my initial disclosure I don't believe so I
01:29:32 initial disclosure I don't believe so I didn't see it until it turned up on Epic and I was horrified by it because this is really a kind of deliberate intrusion into a group that's conducting litigation and I can't
01:29:43 litigation and I can't understand why even to hn33 the lack of propriety wasn't obvious can we look now at ucpi 196 13
01:29:54 obvious can we look now at ucpi 196 13 it's B4 in the Hickman bundle sir ucpi
01:30:19 9613 October this is a report dated the 3rd of October 1983
01:30:28 paragraph 2 well sorry let me start at paragraph one submitted here with as a leaflet unfortunately I don't think we have the leaflet produced by the campaign greenham women against Cruz which has been received from a secret and reliable source the campaign
01:30:44 and reliable source the campaign although using the name greenham and run by some of the women occupants of the peace camp at greenham common is a separate entity which has been formed to organize legal action against the American government the women intend to charge President Reagan and the US
01:30:55 charge President Reagan and the US government with conspiracy to commit genocide they are bringing their case on
01:31:09 genocide they are bringing their case on international law brackets treaties that the US government has signed the gas laws and human rights and American Constitution there will be six women plaintiffs three women have already
01:31:23 plaintiffs three women have already traveled to the USA from Wales privacy from the a of white and privacy from London where they are attempting to raise over $660,000 in London supporters have started to raise £20,000 towards court
01:31:34 raise £20,000 towards court costs it is proposed to file the papers at a federal court on the 9th of November and I perhaps need not read the entirety of that report but it sets out in
01:31:46 in detail the green and women against Cruise litigation and paragraph six the campaign is headed in this country by Jane Hickman
01:31:57 country by Jane Hickman of 42 Trent Road the solicitor for greenham women she is assisted by privacy from the London greenham office and privacy from the camp they've been provided with office facilities at
01:32:10 provided with office facilities at Fisher Meredith solicitors which I think is the firm that you were working at at this
01:32:16 this time how public was the campaign at the point of this report in October 1983 entirely I I think in my bundle is a cutting from the Guardian uh that is dated September 83
01:32:32 Guardian uh that is dated September 83 prior to this which provides almost all of this
01:32:34 of this information describing you as um heading
01:32:45 information describing you as um heading the campaign in this country what's your view on that well again I I I couldn't head a litigation group where I
01:32:57 head a litigation group where I represented the clients I acted at their Direction and I really did did um and there was some very very strong personalities involved
01:33:00 involved so I was happy to participate in discussions but I I couldn't head it or instigate it or or lead it in any way
01:33:11 instigate it or or lead it in any way the fundraising targets that we can see in paragraph four would these have been public
01:33:16 public knowledge um I doubt it because it sounds like a a huge sum but I was only a a tip of the iceberg
01:33:37 but I was only a a tip of the iceberg legally there were four lawyers working full-time on it for months in New York and we also had to raise travel costs for I think I think in the end there were a dozen or 13 uh
01:33:45 13 uh plaintiffs traveling to America plus we had to support two two administrative teams over there one on the east coast
01:33:56 teams over there one on the east coast and one on the west coast so the kind of money we were raising was was fairly modest
01:34:00 modest crowdfunding you said that Lee bonso wasn't involved in green and women against Cruz are you able to assist with how she would have known about the fundraising
01:34:17 targets I I can only surmise that I may have communicated it within Lambeth women for peace but I can't be certain at all can we take that document down thank you ultimately in November
01:34:30 you ultimately in November 1983 the litigation came before the federal court for an interim restraint order and I think that application and the appeal itself was unsuccessful
01:34:42 yes can we look at another report ucpi
01:34:48 20789 C50 in the hn33 bundle so
01:35:12 this report gives detail about various matters but I'd like please to look at paragraph
01:35:19 s and going over the page as well at
01:35:21 well at present so this is a April 1984 at present there is considerable ill feeling and tension between the camp women including those living at the
01:35:33 women including those living at the house I think that's the London house and the green and women against Cruz this is mainly caused by a personality clash and at present no effort has been made by either group to resolve their differences because of the attitude of
01:35:46 differences because of the attitude of the camp women green and women against Crews have stopped organizing or assisting in the planning of any actions and are simply waiting for the judge in America to make his decision regarding
01:35:57 America to make his decision regarding the court case against President Reagan however there are some women who are involved in the camp or with its support groups and also with green and women against Cruz viz Rebecca Johnson who lives at the camp and is a plaintiff in the court case privacy who works in the
01:36:09 the court case privacy who works in the greenh and women against crw office and is a member of lamth women for peace and active support
01:36:20 active support group is this a fair description of the um ill feeling and tension
01:36:28 it's it's not that it's inaccurate it's that
01:36:29 that it's I think it's disproportionate because I don't believe that a majority of the women at the camp had
01:36:39 camp had any difference with greenh and women against Cruz and I know that many of them supported it and thought it was a
01:36:54 them supported it and thought it was a wonderful thing to do um but there was this very vocal minority at the camp who also came under suspicion of being possibly a CIA Aon provocator element um
01:37:07 element um that was
01:37:09 that was hostile to guac as we called it um
01:37:21 hostile to guac as we called it um and I think the the reason that that's not adequately emphasized is because hn33
01:37:26 hn33 was regarded the London office as being a place where you could learn something useful but in terms of
01:37:35 terms of the the sort of divided nature of of of a small faction at the camp those who were at the London office at different times were perhaps
01:37:50 office at different times were perhaps part of the discontented faction and so what she would hear was gossip and it it's just slightly worrying that hn33
01:38:05 it's just slightly worrying that hn33 wasn't better at at looking a bit deeper at what was going on and having a more kind of sociological perspective they keep looking for splits and flaws and breakdown and the camp had there were great weaknesses in the political
01:38:19 great weaknesses in the political organization of the camp and its ability to mount and execute a strategy but she's possibly misidentified what those weaknesses were and that's a failure in her
01:38:33 failure in her reporting can we move forward almost a year to ucpi 144 42 that's 34s 14442 b19 sir in the Jane Hickman bundle
01:39:03 this is dated 11th of January 1985 can you help with where this Falls in fact Let the document may may be able to answer that question after months of Silence green and women
01:39:15 months of Silence green and women against crw may be revived if only for a few days a decision as to whether the women will be able to take legal action against President Reagan will be made in the USA on Monday the 21st of January 1985 so was that the
01:39:29 1985 so was that the appeal or you may not be able to remember the
01:39:41 days was it the appeal perhaps it doesn't matter too much I'm sorry blank to public it was yes of course it was the appeal yes it was the appeal
01:39:54 it was the appeal um paragraph three to publicize this the women intend to hold an early morning demonstration outside the American Embassy grer Square W1 on Friday 18th of January and mention has been made of some participants
01:40:09 been made of some participants attempting to gain entry to the building to ask for Asylum few details are known about this action as the organizer privacy is still in the USA working for the campaign Jane Hickman the instigator of the whole case which we saw earlier against President Reagan is due to fly
01:40:24 against President Reagan is due to fly there on Thursday the 7 17th of January for the
01:40:29 for the hearing were you aware of the plan for a demonstration outside the American Embassy and people attempting to gain entry and ask for Asylum I think I would have known about the
01:40:37 the demonstration but I think asking for Asylum I don't believe that happened and that sounds to me like a perfect example of a brainstorm and it's a very quite a
01:40:52 of a brainstorm and it's a very quite a a funny and creative idea that we would all turn up and seek Asylum since we were now under such imminent nuclear
01:41:03 were now under such imminent nuclear threat but I don't think anybody would want to try in practice it wasn't exactly a friendly environment in the American
01:41:12 American Embassy how do you feel about it being reported that you're due to fly to America on Thursday the 17th of January for the
01:41:17 for the hearing well it's just part of the course isn't it my movements were being being carefully
01:41:29 being carefully watched as I went about my job my lawful job as we've already said the um litigation was unsuccessful can you outline for us what you feel it did
01:41:43 achieve I think it expanded what they call the Overton window now of discussion um it assembled such an array of
01:41:54 of expertise um that it was a huge resource ongoing um and that was achieved really because so many lawyers worked on it and we had enough resource to do the job properly so we put together a real library of materials that would stand in
01:42:12 library of materials that would stand in good stead in the future um one effect I think that Rebecca Johnson attributes uh to the court case was that the
01:42:21 the papers really brought about the Foundation of uh the international campaign against nuclear weapons I can
01:42:32 campaign against nuclear weapons I can which then won the nuclear the the Nobel Peace
01:42:36 Peace Prize a few years well it was quite a few a lot of years later one final document um on a different topic can we turn back to ucpi
01:42:51 different topic can we turn back to ucpi 14796 it's B18 SAR in the Hickman bundle 14796
01:43:05 we saw this document earlier it's about a meeting an lwp meeting on the 27th of November
01:43:08 1984 can we turn to paragraph seven
01:43:19 please so various matters were dealt with in the meeting and then
01:43:27 hn33 reports Jane Hickman then spent an hour speaking about what could happen to women arrested during a demonstration or action on the whole she felt that peace protesters were treated better than other arrested persons but that the
01:43:42 other arrested persons but that the London Police were far worse than Newber police she stressed that women should not physically resist arrest as they could be charged with assault on police and not to intervene in the arrest of
01:43:54 and not to intervene in the arrest of others as this could mean an obstructing police charge although she maintained there is no power to arrest for obstructing police in the course of their Duty she added that this information should not be divulged to the police at the time of arrest if no other charge than obstruction was made
01:44:05 other charge than obstruction was made it should be used later when suing for rful arrest Hickman quoted a figure of about £500 an hour for wrongful
01:44:16 about £500 an hour for wrongful detention other advice Hickman gave was that they should always ask what they were being arrested for as this made it slightly more difficult for the police to change the charge at a later time she advised the women to say absolutely
01:44:28 advised the women to say absolutely nothing during an interview and added that if they were arrested for an offense similar to obstruction of the highway to maintain their right not to be strip searched and never to allow photographs to be
01:44:46 taken firstly in general terms without giving names to whom were you giving this
01:44:50 advice um well that would have been to members of Lambeth women for peace was it a public meeting that anyone could have walked into well all members
01:45:07 could have walked into well all members of Lamberth women for peace were public but I think at that stage we knew each other do you remember this being an anticipation of a particular event well at that point it was quite
01:45:20 event well at that point it was quite busy um in terms of arrests including I think what was the date of this report I'm sorry could you remind me could e out please it's the 20 the report is the 27th of November 1984 yes the
01:45:36 1984 yes the meeting was the 27th I think of November
01:45:37 November yes so
01:45:44 yes so um quite a few Lambeth women for peace were being arrested by that time um at various demonstrations at greenham and one of my concerns about
01:45:57 greenham and one of my concerns about this is that there were some people who were looking to me for advice on that occasion
01:45:59 occasion because very few of the defendants at
01:46:10 because very few of the defendants at Newbury magistrates Court who appeared in relation to greenham charges were granted legal aid and it wasn't possible to even if I'd wanted to one couldn't have represented those numbers without funding um and so this was an opport
01:46:24 funding um and so this was an opport opportunity for people to raise question about their cases which makes it particularly unacceptable and unpleasant that a police officer was sat there listening to us so did people ask you
01:46:36 listening to us so did people ask you questions particular to their own cases in this meeting well that was happening all the
01:46:42 all the time um yes the I mean I was often asked questions of that nature had in meetings and that one in particular because we
01:46:56 and that one in particular because we were devoting a whole session to it did you consider yourself to be the solicitor to all the people in that meeting well it I think I've said in my statement it was really quite difficult
01:47:11 statement it was really quite difficult to tell because once you'd sort of dealt with people in relation to the the the criminal justice environment they tended
01:47:22 criminal justice environment they tended to regard you if you were a solicitor as their solicitor and feel that somehow they had you well you didn't have speed dial back then but more or less they could ring you any time of day or night and get some free advice which I went along with by and large I was perfectly happy for
01:47:38 by and large I was perfectly happy for people to do that because that would so fitted with my own ethos and so this question of whether there was a retainer or not was always slightly blurry but I would have regarded lamth women for peace as all
01:47:52 regarded lamth women for peace as all having a retainer with me and entitled to have confidential legal advice including in a meeting when it was us who who who were present so you considered the entirety of the audience
01:48:06 considered the entirety of the audience of that presentation to have an implicit retainer with I think so yes I I I mean it's difficult to remember the specifics at this distance but I I know that that's how practice was back then and I had so many other criminal clients with
01:48:21 had so many other criminal clients with a similar view was there any discussion before you started this presentation about confidentiality within the group no we were so much less aware of all this sort of thing back
01:48:36 aware of all this sort of thing back then do you consider this to be a breach of Legal Professional privilege I think the risk is really high I I can't be specific but I think it's it's real that risk ultimately would you have given this advice if you'd known there was a police officer in the room no well I
01:48:48 police officer in the room no well I think there's something I said don't don't mention this to the police and the reason for that is it's before Pace the police and criminal Evidence Act
01:49:03 police and criminal Evidence Act had I'm not sure if it been passed it hadn't come into Force until I think April
01:49:05 April 1985 and prep paace the whole question of arrest and what was a lawful arrest was was was very very different
01:49:16 arrest was was was very very different and as as I've said there was no power to arrest for obstructing the police in the execution of their Duty
01:49:27 the execution of their Duty so it was quite advantageous since you were going if you were going to be arrested not to mention it to them because then you had a bit of something to go back at them with when they preferred their charges against you
01:49:44 preferred their charges against you there was a bit of tactical advice there which I'd rather not have shared with the police quite so explicitly we can have that document taken down now I think you first became aware of undercover policing in 2021 via the
01:50:02 undercover policing in 2021 via the inquiry yes how do you feel about the fact that you were the subject of undercover policing I mean I was terribly disappointed I was shocked disappointed rather
01:50:15 rather horrified and really appalled as Hillary said by the waste of funding because having practiced in legal aid for those years although it was reasonably generous at the beginning it got over
01:50:29 generous at the beginning it got over the whole of my career it constantly got Tighter and we were so aware of not wasting money and it was something I
01:50:40 wasting money and it was something I hated anyway wasting money I've always been a skin Flint in practice as in personal
01:50:41 personal life and the idea that they were
01:50:52 life and the idea that they were expending I believe the cost was said at the time to be up to a quarter of a million pounds a year per officer working
01:50:55 working undercover that they had that small change to throw around is it is just horrific in 20 years after that I was a member of The Legal Services Commission and I remember
01:51:14 Legal Services Commission and I remember every day that a minister failed to sign some statutory instrument into law was costing half a million pounds and we waited something like five or six days longer than perhaps we
01:51:25 or six days longer than perhaps we needed to and3 million went down the drain well the undercover police 20 years before that were throwing millions of pounds down the drain every year and it's a terrible waste what if any impact has it had on
01:51:38 waste what if any impact has it had on you to know that you were the subjective undercover
01:51:49 policing I just think it's absurd and very alarming because I think if it happened to me it could happen to just about anyone I know My Views were on the left still at that period And I was a feminist but these were mainstream ideas
01:52:08 feminist but these were mainstream ideas I was introduced to Marxism by a British University not by some secret Soviet cabal I find it inexplicable but the other the other impact I
01:52:14 impact I worry I've worried for a long time is that when I was made redundant on the closure of balam Law Center in 1980 I tried very very hard to get a public
01:52:27 tried very very hard to get a public sector job in a local Authority because my expertise was housing and employment
01:52:38 my expertise was housing and employment primarily at that stage and I knew quite a lot about it and I'd also worked on issues of e using the law for the purpose of economic development in North Kensington and I had the kind of CV at
01:52:50 Kensington and I had the kind of CV at that point where every job I applied for I would get and I applied to countless local authorities and nobody wanted me and I
01:53:03 authorities and nobody wanted me and I finally plucked up the courage to ring Lamberth Council legal department and ask why I hadn't been employed I was just curious and somebody said rather apologetically it was because I was thought to be too political and I had never understood that because this was before the internet before they could
01:53:23 before the internet before they could look you up was this in 1980 did you say 1980 so now I think my 197 7 special Branch
01:53:24 Branch file may have had something to do with that and the black listing process that we now know went on I haven't included that in my statement because I wasn't
01:53:39 that in my statement because I wasn't sure it was relevant but since you ask about
01:53:41 about impact so I have no further questions I
01:53:54 impact so I have no further questions I think we now need to pause for the rule 10 procedure we do indeed and um I it may or may not be IR relevant but I strongly doubt that your 1977 um record in the uh register
01:54:05 1977 um record in the uh register special Branch had anything to do with undercover policing I suspect it pred predated
01:54:09 predated that who knows I have no idea what it's about so I but thank you right we um will now adjourn for 15 minutes um while rule 10 questions are
01:54:21 asked
02:09:20 e e
02:10:10 no
02:10:23 worries so no questions have been submitted to me yes Mr wood yes I only have this uh is there anything or any part of the answers that you've given Sir John which you yourself feel needs to be clarified in any way no I don't think so thank
02:10:39 think so thank you um as I say to every witness who's uh helped me in the inquiry thank you very much for taking the time and trouble to do so uh your evidence like that of all other Witnesses who are in that category has been greatly helpful thank
02:10:49 thank you and that I think finish his proceedings for today indeed I think in this hearing room for this week we will resume on Monday at
02:11:20 10:
02:20:49 e e