Testimony from Hilary Moore and summaries about infiltration of women's peace groups by HN33 'Lee Bonser'. The session covers the greenham common women's peace camp, Lambeth women for peace activities, and the impact of state surveillance on peaceful activists. Key themes include non-violent direct action principles and the inappropriateness of spying on justice campaigns.
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00:26:46 I begin on what I believe is the seventh day of uh evidential hearings uh with um two statements that I must make um those who who are sitting in here will have
00:26:57 who who are sitting in here will have heard them many times before um those at the back back uh have um who have electronic devices may use them to transmit uh what they hear uh in the
00:27:11 transmit uh what they hear uh in the hearing room but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're describing the purpose is to fit in with the live link broadcast which is occurring which is subject to a 10-minute delay uh the the electronic
00:27:26 10-minute delay uh the the electronic devices may not be used for recording proceedings or taking photographs um as you entered the hearing venue today you were required to agree to an
00:27:43 today you were required to agree to an order restricting onward transmission or communication of information set out in an Annex which you were shown on Entry to the hearing room this information will not be published in the hearing transcript and will not be transmitted uh via the live stream uh Council to the inquiry will direct the witness not to
00:27:55 inquiry will direct the witness not to refer to it in their live evidence but if they inadvertently do so we'll have to pause
00:28:07 to pause proceedings anybody who is not certain uh about what they must do to comply with the order um please uh consult shuana who is standing at the back of the uh hearing room and um she will assist
00:28:21 you yes this
00:28:23 yes this chance thank you sir I'm going to read now a summary of the evidence of Rebecca Johnson Rebecca Johnson is a core participant in the inquiry and a
00:28:37 participant in the inquiry and a lifelong peace activist campaigner and academic in the field of nuclear disarmament in 2004 she received a PhD from the London University School of economics and politics with her doctoral thesis on multilateral nuclear arms
00:28:51 thesis on multilateral nuclear arms negotiations she served as co-chair and then president of the international campaign to abolish nuclear weapons until
00:28:56 until 2014 the international campaign to
00:29:07 2014 the international campaign to abolish nuclear weapons was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2017 and Rebecca Johnson continues to work with that organization Rebecca Johnson has provided the inquiry with a witness statement which will be published today Rebecca Johnson first heard about greenham common when she went on a
00:29:20 greenham common when she went on a campaign for nuclear disarmament March in October 1981 she began to visit and stay at the greenham common women's peace Camp from 1982 Rebecca Johnson says that many of
00:29:32 1982 Rebecca Johnson says that many of the women who participated at greenham wanted to quote build a global movement to challenge all patriarchal systems
00:29:45 to challenge all patriarchal systems that oppressed women's lives Safety and Security we wanted women everywhere to connect and Rise together to liberate ourselves our countries and the world from militarism colonialism nationalism and all the violent scourges and mindsets of racism sexism exploitation
00:29:59 mindsets of racism sexism exploitation and Injustice that destroyed our lives and
00:30:00 and families Rebecca Johnson explains that the greenham common women's peace Camp grew out of a 10day protest walk by women for life on Earth who sought to
00:30:11 women for life on Earth who sought to draw attention to the decision of NATO in December 1979 to deploy us ground launched first use cruise missiles at the greenham common Air Base 36 women four men and several
00:30:25 Base 36 women four men and several children set off from Cardiff and others joined them along the way they reached the greenham common air base on the 5th of September 1981 and four of the women then chained themselves to the main
00:30:37 then chained themselves to the main gate the green common women's peace Camp developed as a network and a movement organically from 1981 and cycled through several stages during its most active years from 1982 until the cruise missiles were eliminated in
00:30:49 missiles were eliminated in 1991 when Rebecca Johnson arrived at greenham common peace camp on the 9th of August 1982 the anniversary of the bombing of Nagasaki
00:31:00 bombing of Nagasaki there were around 15 to 20 women living at the camp she recalls seeing several
00:31:11 at the camp she recalls seeing several women entering the base to present the Royal Air Force and the United States Air Force commanders with a thousand origami cranes in commemoration of victims of nuclear use and testing the camp initially was established between the main gate of the air base and the a339 newb to basing Stoke
00:31:26 Stoke Road after the 12th of December 1982 embrace the base demonstration where 35,000 women came to greenham to surround the air base 5,000 women far more than expected chose to stay
00:31:38 more than expected chose to stay overnight and Clos the base on the 13th of December the next day from December 1982 the number of
00:31:50 day from December 1982 the number of women who visited and stayed grew and by the end of 1983 there were over 200 women living in separate camps all around the 9M Air Base many more women had become active in greenham Connected peace groups including lamp women for peace the group which hn33
00:32:02 which hn33 infiltrated Rebecca Johnson says that the peace Camp relied on the women who made Regular trips to greenham for a day a weekend or however long they could these connections would go back and
00:32:15 these connections would go back and forth sharing information making plans for actions at greenore elsewhere carrying out night watches holding parties and participating in various actions whether spontaneous or
00:32:29 planned rebecc Johnson says that whilst the green and women did not promulgate rules as such it was her understanding when she arrived at the peace camp that there were two Central principles
00:32:41 there were two Central principles nonviolence and holding women's space she says that whilst there were different ideas amongst the women at the camp over the years about what constituted violence and nonviolence there was a clear understanding that
00:32:53 there was a clear understanding that they would not knowingly use or allow physical violence against any people Rebecca Johnson says her first action was on the 27th of August 1982 when she entered the greenham airbase and occupied the main gate Sentry box
00:33:07 and occupied the main gate Sentry box with a number of other women they were arrested and tried for breach of the peace and Rebecca Johnson was remanded to prison for 14 days for refusing to be bound over to keep the
00:33:18 bound over to keep the peace on New Year's Day 1983 Rebecca Johnson was one of 44 women who had climbed into the base they made their way to the top of a nuclear weapon Silo danced and sang for a couple of hours
00:33:30 danced and sang for a couple of hours before being arrested for breach of the peace
00:33:31 peace again Rebecca Johnson had been responsible for visiting major print and TV media in advance of this action to persuade them to send reporters and Camera Crews to attend they did and
00:33:43 Camera Crews to attend they did and coverage of this action was reported on National media she later served 14 days in holay prison for breach of the peace in relation to this
00:34:00 incident Rebecca Johnson attended early meetings in London that Str ized for the greenham women against cruise missiles court case brought against President Reagan and the joint Chief of Staff with the aims of securing an injunction to prevent or at least delay the deployment of American cruise missiles in
00:34:15 of American cruise missiles in Britain Rebecca Johnson was one of the named greenham plaintiffs in the case and traveled to America in October 1983 she returned to greenham in late November of that year and in December over 50,000 women took part in women
00:34:28 over 50,000 women took part in women reclaim greenham which was also called women reflect the Bas the women used mirrors to reflect the silos and the solders faces back to them and vibrated the fences with their hands singing chanting and drumming they
00:34:40 hands singing chanting and drumming they brought down half the perimeter fence on this
00:34:42 this occasion Rea Johnson also took part in an action on the 27th of December 1983 where she and another three women climbed the outside of the greenham
00:34:54 climbed the outside of the greenham control tower hanging a bed sheet Banner on its railings they found their way into the unoccupied viewing Tower and found and read documents and handbooks about emergency procedures in the event
00:35:08 about emergency procedures in the event of planes crashing with nuclear chemical or biological weapons on board news coverage of this action went Global Rebecca Johnson states that in
00:35:21 Global Rebecca Johnson states that in 1984 the US Air Force and British police began taking the cruise missiles out of the base onto public roads as part of nuclear exercises requiring that the mobile launchers carrying the missiles should quote melt into the countryside locals were unhappy about these weapons
00:35:33 locals were unhappy about these weapons being driven around she says dangerously and that's how the cruise watch initiative was born its aim was to monitor raise awareness and protest about all nuclear exercises in which cruise missile convoys were taken onto
00:35:47 cruise missile convoys were taken onto public roads which generally happened in the middle of the night Rebecca Johnson states that the green and women and local Cruise Watchers were determined to make it impossible for NATO to pretend that
00:35:58 impossible for NATO to pretend that these nuclear exercises could ever keep people safe from war or nuclear war green and women would monitor the base and raise awareness via telephone trees when they thought that a convoy was about to be taken out onto public
00:36:11 was about to be taken out onto public roads Rebecca Johnson says that cruise watch's founding principles included
00:36:18 nonviolence the inquiry holds a report dated the 9th of November 1984 which reports that Rebecca Johnson claimed to have left greenham visiting cards inside the American embassy at groser Square
00:36:31 groser Square W1 Rebecca Johnson confirms that she had been invited by a companion to attend the traditional election party at the US Embassy she went and entered through the main door with all of the other guests she had asked her companion whether it would be okay for her to place a few
00:36:45 would be okay for her to place a few handmade paper visiting cards discretely around the place and she put them wherever she could down the side of chairs inside books under cushions and underplant pots Rebecca Johnson says the detail in
00:37:00 pots Rebecca Johnson says the detail in that intelligence report which suggests she took a bottle of blood with her is not
00:37:08 accurate Rebecca Johnson has some memory of hn33 cover named Lee bonser whom she knew as a quiet and friendly Lambeth woman for peace member who sometimes visited greenham and also went to meetings with other greenham women's peace
00:37:19 peace groups Miss Johnson did not have any relationship with this officer but thinks it was possible that she saw her in private homes belonging to one or more of her friends in Lambeth women for peace as a a member of the green and women against cruise missiles Rebecca
00:37:36 women against cruise missiles Rebecca Johnson was present at several meetings relating to that case in 1983 and 1984 when solicitor Jane Hickman discussed legal issues Rebecca Johnson believes that hn33 attended one or more of those
00:37:48 that hn33 attended one or more of those meetings and if she did would have been privy to confidential legal advice regarding her and
00:37:54 others Rebecca Johnson describes violence that she and other women at greenham common were subject to by both with police officers and members of the US Air Force on multiple occasions during the periods between 1982 and
00:38:07 during the periods between 1982 and 1987 this violence was serious and had long-reaching traumatic impacts on her Rebecca Johnson says that she was a very private person before she got involved with greenham and the more she
00:38:18 involved with greenham and the more she has learned through the inquiry the less she trusts the police politicians and state entities she says that greenham women Cruise watch and indeed the CND were open about their intentions to stop cruise missiles if they could they
00:38:32 cruise missiles if they could they communicated openly with citizens living anywhere near the cruise missile deployments and Convoy routes using phone trees and radios they invited journalists to greenham when they took
00:38:47 journalists to greenham when they took actions such as encircling blocking and entering the base Dancing on the silos or opening doors and windows to the nuclear base with their bolt cutters she says that green and women were completely open in their nonviolent determination to explore nuclear
00:38:58 determination to explore nuclear military threats and undermine the nuclear
00:39:02 nuclear deployments thank you sir thank you very much because the next witness Hillary Moore is going to give evidence via live link there'll have to be one or two arrangements made to permit that to happen I'll rise for 5 minutes to enable it to do
00:39:26 so
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00:41:27 good morning Miss Mo I'm the Asha and I'm going to take you through the affirmation can you hear me okay I can yes thank you please can you repeat after
00:41:36 after me I do
00:41:39 me I do solemnly I do soln sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm
00:41:50 sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence that I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole Tru truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank
00:42:09 nothing but the truth thank you good morning can you start by giving your full name please Hillary Christine Moore my name is Rachel nayor and I'm the inquiry bar who's going to be asking you questions this morning you made a witness statement um to the inquiry
00:42:22 witness statement um to the inquiry dated the 3D of May this year which was 94 pages long and has 18 exhibits is that witness statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief it
00:42:33 and belief it is that puts the whole of your witness statement into evidence and we need only focus on certain parts of it
00:42:51 focus on certain parts of it now by way of background to you Hillary you say in your witness statement that while you were at school you began to develop a strong sense of injustices around the world and you joined the police the peace pledge Union and CND while you were still at school is that right it is you then trained as a
00:43:02 right it is you then trained as a primary school teacher and you were active in politics during your training
00:43:14 active in politics during your training and your early career is that correct it is yes for example you were involved in the anti-apartheid movement
00:43:20 movement CND in feminist politics and various International causes yes you taught in schools for children with special educ educational needs in wesworth and Lamberth into the
00:43:31 needs in wesworth and Lamberth into the 1980s and then you continued to work in the field of special education until you retired I think 11 years ago is that correct that's correct yes now the
00:43:48 correct that's correct yes now the period of your life that we're concerned with particularly today is 1983 to
00:43:53 1983 to 1986 which is the period of reporting by hn33 who I think you knew as Lee
00:44:06 hn33 who I think you knew as Lee I did she infiltrated Lambeth women for peace and the greenham common women's peace
00:44:07 peace camp and so we're just going to look at those two groups to begin with greenham common first I think you've said in your witness statement you were involved in greenham common from
00:44:22 greenham common from 1982 until about the end of 1987 is that correct it is could you explain for us briefly the structure of greenham common Camp oh um well I think that was quite
00:44:41 Camp oh um well I think that was quite well laid out by um Rebecca's um summary there um Rebecca would be better at explaining this too so did you hear Rebecca Johnson's summary that was just read to the chair I did just now yes yes but um I think that covered it quite
00:44:57 but um I think that covered it quite well but I I many many women from London were going to greenham Common and I'd got friends who'd been um very moved by
00:45:08 got friends who'd been um very moved by what they saw on visits so I went on a a CND coach in fact of people from North London with a friend and visited in October and was quite Amazed by what I saw um by the women who are camping there um all the supporters and felt I
00:45:21 there um all the supporters and felt I wanted to get involved um as much as I could having a full-time job and being ited in London um it it was just very very impressive the
00:45:33 very impressive the nonviolent um action that was going on there um so was that in O it was that in October 1981 that you first went to at
00:45:46 October 1981 that you first went to at 82 that would have been yes yeah and in fact on that coach I met um another woman and um together we decided that we'd like to um she was from South London like myself we seem to be the
00:45:59 London like myself we seem to be the only two south londoners and we decided that we'd um like to try and do something in um South London we both lived in Lambeth so and that's how Lambeth women for peace was formed yes
00:46:11 Lambeth women for peace was formed yes the group that became Lambeth women for peace eventually yes which started meeting at the end of that year of 82 and um really got going in 83 I'd like to just stay with greenham common peace camp for a moment we'll
00:46:29 common peace camp for a moment we'll come on to looking at Lambeth women for peace but in terms of the peace Camp um as we've heard Rebecca Johnson described there was at at some stages up to 200 women camping why was in C can you help us
00:46:44 camping why was in C can you help us with why the camp was women only I don't know whether you heard the evidence of the police officer hn 65 yesterday but one of his reports described it as violently anti-male was that your
00:47:02 violently anti-male was that your perception why why was it women only no definitely not I mean this is the kind of stuff that was fed to newspapers later on about greenham um not at all violently anti-il I mean lots of the
00:47:14 violently anti-il I mean lots of the women um there um were married had male Partners you know there's this kind of image later that it was just a bunch of lesbians which was nuts and not at all
00:47:27 lesbians which was nuts and not at all true um I think for myself and for other women who came along to lamb women for peace and women at Green and we saw a different way of organizing as women um that we could do in a different maybe more creative imaginative way than
00:47:38 more creative imaginative way than traditional kind of um left politics um and it CND itself in fact um you know we felt as women we could organize in a
00:47:49 felt as women we could organize in a different kind of way um and we were very informed by feminism but certainly not
00:47:55 not anti-men this was you know just a crazy notion that there was about greenham it has to be said that later on there were some you know Fringe elements and we weren't all happy always with everybody
00:48:08 weren't all happy always with everybody who was at greenham you know but it was an open place where any woman could come along you described in your witness statement I think um the the structure of the camp is indeterminate and
00:48:26 of the camp is indeterminate and fluctuating and um without structure or hierarchy again yesterday the police officer H n65 described it as being cleverly structured to be hard to grasp what was planned was the non-h
00:48:40 what was planned was the non-h hierarchical nature of it intentional for that reason or was there another reason why the camp was non-h hierarchical it absolutely was the core sort of value of feminism you know that everybody had an equal voice um that
00:48:55 everybody had an equal voice um that there weren't any leaders as such at the camp though the press um and well the police the undercover police Etc they all try to make leaders in including
00:49:09 all try to make leaders in including people like Rebecca make them the focus of um intelligence but the whole ethos was that everybody was equal all women had could were welcome there and everybody had an equal voice each Gat
00:49:22 everybody had an equal voice each Gat had a distinct ethos too there were I think eight gates at greenham um and they all had a slightly different ethos and we tended to we lambath women for
00:49:34 and we tended to we lambath women for peace tended to gravitate to Orange gate which suited us what what was the ethos of orange gate Hillary it seemed to have a little bit more involvement with other groups as well and that was our perception anyway um slightly more
00:49:51 perception anyway um slightly more internationalist perhaps um in its focus and quite a lot of visitors came to Orange gate as well we felt quite at home there how I'm sorry I interrupted you it's okay I forgot what I was going to say
00:50:03 okay I forgot what I was going to say then so press on how often did you camp at Green uh sorry orange Gaz um well I I oh camping now that's a good question I
00:50:17 oh camping now that's a good question I I did refer to my Diaries from the 1980s to make my statement and I used to just keep a note of what I was doing in the Diaries rather than reflective and um I did add up that I seem to have noted that I was going to Green them over those period of years on about 20
00:50:32 those period of years on about 20 occasions that I'd recorded I was going I would guess I might have camped on less than half of those occasions certainly no more than half of those occasions probably you usually only for one night maybe for two I don't know
00:50:48 one night maybe for two I don't know that I ever camped for longer than that and we've heard um from Rebecca Johnson's summary this morning that some women camped fulltime some women like
00:51:00 women camped fulltime some women like you attended for a night um or two were there also people who only visited for the day and didn't Camp absolutely yes I mean I often V well often as I say on
00:51:14 mean I often V well often as I say on some occasions I did visit for the day and that was the habit of lots of the lamth women for peace we organize coaches sometimes to go on day trips um at a weekend you know just to support the camp for the day and um and there
00:51:27 the camp for the day and um and there used to be this phrase carry greenham home
00:51:31 home so um take the spirit of greenham back into
00:51:36 into Lamberth to your mind were full-time campers part-time Campers or day visitors viewed any differently by the greenh and
00:51:53 greenh and women um um there were some divisions I think but not from the more reasonable people at greenh I think there was an element later on at greenham which I think um Rebecca Johnson and Jane Hickman have referred to in their statements um which led to a lot of the discrediting and
00:52:04 discrediting and the
00:52:06 the um not just discrediting but it helped those press reports helped feed but it was a minority of women there um generally we felt very very welcome um
00:52:20 generally we felt very very welcome um the campus who were there all the time wanted to see women come from all over the country and generally speaking I didn't personally encounter any hostility now we'll come on to look at
00:52:38 hostility now we'll come on to look at some specific events during um hn 33's deployment but just as an overview what's your memory of the kind of actions that took place at greenham common we've heard some from Rebecca Johnson but what's your memory um well the first one that I was involved with was before lamth women for
00:52:58 involved with was before lamth women for peace started to me to meet which was um the embrace the bay which was a huge thing at the end of 1982 that Rebecca did refer to and Drew a lot of media attention um it was just an incredibly moving powerful event to
00:53:13 an incredibly moving powerful event to see so many women who literally had come from all over the country coach loads arriving by the minute and be part of that that was the first um action that I took PL part in there um there were a
00:53:26 took PL part in there um there were a lot of creative imaginative times there I remember once when we um made banners to take there and decorate the fence with um there was a a Dragon Dance
00:53:39 with um there was a a Dragon Dance day there um a lot of um actions like that obviously that we we spent most of our times actually there doing things like decorating fence or walking the perimeter um there were other bigger
00:53:56 perimeter um there were other bigger actions um I remember which was also Al referred to I think by Rebecca um um reflecting um um back on the base you know taking mirrors to the base and
00:54:07 know taking mirrors to the base and there was the um famous action um yes that um when some of the fence was cut and and L with women for peace were there then in relation to that you've
00:54:18 there then in relation to that you've mentioned cutting the fence and entering the base of course we know that women at greenan were arrested and the law was broken what was the attitude to Breaking the Law in your
00:54:33 the Law in your experience well it's certainly not something we wanted to do are you talking about me personally lambath women um well if you can only speak of from your own experience or or the women
00:54:52 from your own experience or or the women around you but how what was the attitude to Breaking the Law yeah I don't think we sought to break the law and any um actions of any kind that resulted in arrest were at the very lower end of criminal uh activity um uh like perhaps
00:55:06 activity um uh like perhaps um of an action in Parliament Square when cruise missiles were being debated and um some of us lay down and got removed you know um it wasn't a huge
00:55:21 removed you know um it wasn't a huge criminal action but um I think it was been charged with obstructing the highway or something in the end um sometimes it was thought to be necessary we wanted to make our Point um and yes
00:55:33 we wanted to make our Point um and yes it was a factor that sometimes the law was broken but there was a great bigger international law you know the whole thing of cruise missiles coming in
00:55:48 thing of cruise missiles coming in seemed so awful that you know lying down somewhere or cutting a bit of the fence that was keeping those cruise missiles
00:55:59 that was keeping those cruise missiles or was possibly going to keep the cruise missiles inside greenh and seemed very small by comparison with the bigger Injustice that was going on in terms of cutting the fence and entering the base
00:56:11 specifically in the annual report that the SDS wrote in 1983 which was a document where the the managers of the SDS um surveyed the work of the SDs that year in 1983 I don't
00:56:25 of the SDs that year in 1983 I don't think we need to turn to it but they record that there were numerous successful breaches of the perimeter fence and many invasions of the base firstly can you help us with you may not
00:56:42 firstly can you help us with you may not be able to but how often would women cut the fence was it something in your mind that was a rarity or a regular
00:56:52 that was a rarity or a regular occurrence I think that's something that Rebecca Johnson would be able to answer a lot better than me or somebody who lived there um I witnessed it a few times on my visit um um I don't think I can say more than that
00:57:06 can say more than that yeah are you able to assist us the the annual report I've just referred to talks about invasions of the base can you help us with what women would do once they were inside the base um well I think Rebecca again's
00:57:18 base um well I think Rebecca again's given a couple of examples of um very imaginative actions like the dancing on the silos that um felt very inspiring to all of us I I mean I think for a lot of
00:57:35 all of us I I mean I think for a lot of women it would just be that um there was the sense that of getting inside the base and having broken through the perimeter and it might be just having a little walk around you
00:57:47 around you know those bigger actions like Rebecca described um going into a controls travel were quite or inspiring but for most women um it was fairly small scale on inside the
00:58:06 base can you help us with how decision making took place at greenham common to what extent were actions planned or
00:58:18 were actions planned or spontanous I don't think I can help with that really I think again Rebecca's the person there often the I do know that often there were spontaneous actions but the bigger um actions
00:58:33 the bigger um actions were planned and um and generally it was quite um widely known there wasn't any secret about it leaflets would be put out which were distributed nationally um there was no secret about most of the actions that were going to take place
00:58:45 actions that were going to take place anybody could find out about them and any woman could come to greenham and join in with it we'll come on to look at some of the leaflets later could someone who was not camping fulltime um be part
00:58:59 who was not camping fulltime um be part of the decision-making process or aware in advance of such
00:59:11 actions um that's a funny one um a decision making process I mean any woman could go to greenham and or in theory any group could plan an action and go to
00:59:22 any group could plan an action and go to greenham nobody had to wait for the Sayo of anybody there were no leaders
00:59:23 leaders um sorry could you repeat your question were two parts to it if um I'll I'll try phrasing it a different way if plans
00:59:34 phrasing it a different way if plans were being made at greenham around a campfire for an event was that only open to women who camped at full fulltime at grehom or if somebody happened to be there at the
00:59:49 somebody happened to be there at the time who was either a day visitor or a part-time camper could they have been part of that discussion and that planning well and for sure yes they could have been part of it there was no hierarchy at all you know anybody who sat around a campfire was privy to anything that was going on there was no
01:00:01 anything that was going on there was no secrecy of anything in my experience of greenh them at all and is that true for both actions which did not involve
01:00:12 both actions which did not involve breaking the law and ones which did involve breaking the law yes I think so as far as I'm aware Hillary I'd like to look now at Lambeth women for peace you've already begun to outline um how it came about I
01:00:27 begun to outline um how it came about I think you had attended embrace the base in
01:00:32 in 1982 and um decided that you wanted to bring some of that Spirit back to lambirth and I think you said you were involved well was it formed in 1982 and then really got underway in 1983 I think
01:00:46 then really got underway in 1983 I think you said yes I think we I believe we had our first meeting in December 82 and we were meeting weekly after that at least weekly yeah at that stage and you were involved until 1988 why did your involvement stop then
01:01:03 1988 why did your involvement stop then I think the group really ceased to exist it wasn't um you know it had the the whole landscape had changed um there had been an agreement about nuclear weapons
01:01:18 been an agreement about nuclear weapons um Gorbachev was in power and he' um he he' praised the efforts of the greenh and women in bringing peace uh the group had changed it had become focused on a
01:01:30 had changed it had become focused on a lot of other things as well local issues like trying to save the South London women's hospital um and we'd beg to fund raise as well for a school in Ethiopia um that was at the time of the
01:01:45 Ethiopia um that was at the time of the famine that obviously was a a big world headline around 1984 so it the group had become a different thing and in the end ceased to exist yes can you help us with when
01:01:56 exist yes can you help us with when those changes started to come about in terms of the focus of Lambeth women for peace um we were always a very broad-based group um as individuals we
01:02:12 broad-based group um as individuals we had a lot of separate interests um uh I think I've said in my statement I was quite involved um with the anti aparte movement and as were other members of um lambus women for peace and there were
01:02:29 lambus women for peace and there were local issues international issues um we we were we pretty soon focused out Beyond just green them though peace was at our core but we were did have a very internationalist perspective and I
01:02:40 internationalist perspective and I suppose attracted women who had those
01:02:51 suppose attracted women who had those interests as well women came and went in Lamb the peace can we look at a leaflet that you've produced for us the reference is ucpi 36949 so it's A2 in the Hillary Moore
01:03:12 bundle can you help us with the approximate date of this leaflet we can see produced by Lambeth women for peace in the bottom right hand corner oh yeah um right well I can see um
01:03:31 um right well I can see um yeah uh I would guess that's um probably later in
01:03:32 later in 1983 um looking at it uh I can't read the content of it now do you mind it's quite small isn't it I'm going to just ask we in llarge the right hand I've got
01:03:49 ask we in llarge the right hand I've got a copy of it here in the bundle I've got um yes I'm I'm just going to read some of this content lamth women for piece believe that no political argument is worth the sacrifice of the Earth the threat of nuclear mass murder and the resultant suffering is an outrage we
01:04:03 resultant suffering is an outrage we believe that killing is wrong and that the arms race is a blight on all our lives we want to stop Cruise deployment and the purchase of trident in order to change the course of Britain's inevitable entry into nuclear Holocaust
01:04:15 inevitable entry into nuclear Holocaust if we can just move down slightly on the display if you too are concerned you can the first suggestion is learn more about the issues by listening and talking to others education is the first step in
01:04:30 others education is the first step in becoming involved second join or support a local group working for peace or create one with like-minded people information is usually available in libraries third join a national group
01:04:42 libraries third join a national group like CND or women for life on Earth and that's the group The Cardiff branch of which marched from Cardiff to greenham in 1981 and formed the peace Camp I
01:04:55 in 1981 and formed the peace Camp I think and finally support International movement working for peace does this give us a sense of what Lambeth women for peace stood for yes definitely um
01:05:06 for peace stood for yes definitely um and I can see by the little cartoon at the bottom which was featured in the evening standard that's a reference to our clap and common peace camp that it's post that time so I think it probably
01:05:22 post that time so I think it probably was a leaf that we put out I'm guessing later on in 1983 and um we might have used at a particular event or um distributed them around the local area to whom would the leaflet have been distributed members of the public we
01:05:37 distributed members of the public we wanted to be we a big focus of our whole being was to be educational to the people of Lamberth let them know what
01:05:48 people of Lamberth let them know what was going on um um I'm just wondering if there no this isn't the one that refers to clap and Comm and being a marked as
01:05:56 to clap and Comm and being a marked as an burial ground in the event of nuclear war I think we had a different Le about that I'm just reading in the beginning but it was very much to bring that message about the nuclear arms movement nuclear arms race how much it was
01:06:08 nuclear arms race how much it was costing individual families in tax and just making people aware of what was going on can we just zoom in on the um left hand side there underneath the
01:06:19 left hand side there underneath the lambath women for peace logo bottom right hand
01:06:30 corner we can see here it says join us at 361 clap and Road SW9 we meet every Wednesday at 7:30 to whom um well who who was invited to attend Lambeth women anybody any well it was a women's group Lambo women for peace but I mean women different women
01:06:43 peace but I mean women different women came to all all of the meetings in 1983
01:06:57 came to all all of the meetings in 1983 at the very beginning there were lots of women would come to meetings some would only come for a few months some stayed for years and became part of the core group uh it was an Open Door yeah anybody could come along any woman did you meet they would including hn33 of
01:07:10 you meet they would including hn33 of course we'll come on to hn 33's arrival in L inter lamth women for peace but just by way of overview did you meet in public spaces or private spaces a
01:07:24 public spaces or private spaces a mixture really we wanted to meet in more public spaces I believe that address might have been the citizens advice office in clam Road um we met sometimes we had various venues um which we used
01:07:36 we had various venues um which we used at different times over the years we met at the South London Women's Center during the time that there was the occupation of the South London Women's Hospital we held our meetings there to support the women who are occupying the
01:07:53 support the women who are occupying the hospital it was used a lot for meetings there all sorts of meetings but sometimes we did meet in home yes yes and that was usually because other facilities weren't available but
01:08:04 other facilities weren't available but we did in the reports of lth women for peace meetings that we have from hn33 there the attendance shows between about 6 and 21 women does that Accord with your memory of the size of Lambeth women for peace yes 21 sounds
01:08:31 women for peace yes 21 sounds extraordinary yes but um yes I would say it hovered around a dozen yes generally yes an average there sometimes was as low as six yes in the period we're concerned with 1983 to 1986 to what extent was the purpose of Lambeth women for peace to Galvanize support for greenham common peace Camp
01:08:45 support for greenham common peace Camp versus um organizing events locally in South
01:08:47 South London um I think our Focus was South London very much but our our core found Foundation was to support greenham
01:09:03 Foundation was to support greenham common um I think as I've said before um it did shift slightly over the years from that but we never stopped supporting greenham and we never stopped organizing to go there as a group and
01:09:16 organizing to go there as a group and sometimes hiring coaches if there were bigger events um it was a a very very much a mixture though after about I think even the end of 1984 by then um though greenan was always a constant factor and I think was nearly always
01:09:30 factor and I think was nearly always brought up at meetings and it would have been on the agenda such um I I think you've described in your witness statement that similarly to greenham Common lamth women for peace
01:09:52 greenham Common lamth women for peace was non-h hierarchical um an undefined membership there wasn't strict rules associated with it you've explained that a As Time developed it became necessary to have a bank account why was it that Lambeth women for peace eventually needed a bank account well we were doing so many events I think it
01:10:04 were doing so many events I think it probably I don't have a distinct memory of when that happened but we did have a bank account yes um I mean we were hiring places including our weekly meetings um we were we were um
01:10:25 meetings um we were we were um fundraising for greenham but also and we fundra usually as well for the the school in
01:10:30 school in t um we just needed a bank account for those General we'd have leaflets um printed off posters printed off uh that was the reason for the bank account I'd
01:10:44 was the reason for the bank account I'd like to refer you to the first of um hn 33's reports that I just want to take you to ucpi 20632 so it's B10 in the Hillary Mo bundle
01:11:13 this is the report of a meeting on the 5th of June 1984 and we can see 16 women um that's the date of the report 8th of June reporting a meeting on the 5th of June we can see in paragraph 2 16 women were present you're not listed as
01:11:25 were present you're not listed as present in this report but I would like to refer you please to paragraph
01:11:37 3D which says the bank account of Lambeth women for pece is about £13 in credit so we're not talking about huge sums of money is that your memory that sounds quite healthy yes I would
01:11:50 that sounds quite healthy yes I would have expected it to be around that yes whilst we're on this report can we just turn to page two
01:12:01 turn to page two please this lists the people that hn33 identified as being present at the meeting we've redacted their names for privacy purposes but I would just like
01:12:12 privacy purposes but I would just like to turn to the middle of the page there and the descriptions that hn33 has provided firstly we can see privacy um described as fresh complexion medium
01:12:27 described as fresh complexion medium build can you see that in on your screen could you enlarge it refering to it happens so often in these reports ridiculous yes so we've got fresh complexion medium build the next person is heavy build fresh
01:12:40 next person is heavy build fresh complexion the next person is heavy build salow complexion we've got slim build short curly brown hair and fair complexion the next one is also Fair
01:12:55 complexion the next one is also Fair complexion and the last person is slim build Fair complexion do you have any comment on these descriptions it's just so offensive it's so sexist and it it
01:13:07 so offensive it's so sexist and it it just says so much about the SDS somehow I mean I know I think we've been told that hn33 submitted handwritten reports but I'm assuming this is her um
01:13:24 but I'm assuming this is her um descriptions it's awful in what on Earth was the point of that and it is just so sexist
01:13:26 sexist terrible we can take that document down now thank you just finally on the topic of funding it's right I think that Lambeth women for peace did receive some funding from Lambeth Council and you
01:13:40 funding from Lambeth Council and you worked with the council in providing educational events yes we did yes we did get funding from them occasionally yes yeah they were sympathetic to some of our aims
01:13:52 were sympathetic to some of our aims we're going to come on to look at in in some more detail about the kind of things lamber women for peace organized but in general terms what did the group
01:14:03 but in general terms what did the group do in furtherance of your aims could you give us some examples of local action you took um yes I mean one of the biggest local actions we did um was the
01:14:14 biggest local actions we did um was the clap and peace Camp um which was set up just before hn 33's infiltration um and that was in 1983 um
01:14:25 1983 um in May International women's day for disarmament we had a big camp on clap and common that was a great success I'm going to come on to look at that in a
01:14:38 going to come on to look at that in a moment but um if we could just stay at a higher level in terms of the kind of actions you took you've described in your witness statement things like leafleting dying a jumble sale yeah discos peace
01:14:55 discos peace picnics um when when when you organized these kind of events how much in your view how much disturbance did you cause to the
01:15:06 to the public well none we it was very much our aim Not to cause disturbance to the public we wanted to have them on side you know we wanted to um win hearts and
01:15:20 you know we wanted to um win hearts and Minds as it were yes we certainly didn't want to annoy the people of lambus at all what was the group's attitude to notifying the authority like lamouth Council and the police yeah we we were
01:15:32 Council and the police yeah we we were very very much tried to do that um with the peace camp we worked with Lambeth Council to try and get permission for that we often inform the police I think there are some notes um where I think
01:15:47 there are some notes um where I think I've seen in one of hn 33's reports that um we were still waiting for pce permission for a March around Lamberth and there was another occasion when we were highlighting some food storage of surplus food to do with the te gray um
01:16:03 surplus food to do with the te gray um fundraising in stret and we were trying to get police permission for a a demonstration there so we did try and work in conjunction there you've already described alongside events you organize locally as we've
01:16:15 events you organize locally as we've just been talking about lamth women for peace also supported greenham common and attended greenham common periodically and um can you just help with what kind
01:16:30 and um can you just help with what kind of things Lambeth women for peace women were involved in when you were in GRE when you attended greenham common I'm sorry did were you able to hear that
01:16:47 sorry did were you able to hear that question yeah I can hear yes um well I described a couple already didn't I I mean they sort of embrac the base um there's this Dragon of life event I remember that and I was going up for that on a sunny day um as I said before often it would just be
01:17:01 as I said before often it would just be to go to the base and be creative around the fence I mean there were the most wonderful artworks around the fence and political statements um and we' be very much a part of that um we created a
01:17:14 much a part of that um we created a Peace Garden we once actually took a kiln to greenham common we had two Potters in the group and we took a Kil and made tiles and made a garden near the orange gate with the tiles that we'd
01:17:27 the orange gate with the tiles that we'd fired um we did go to support When Calls were made that there was a need for more women around sometimes the women were subject to quite violent
01:17:38 subject to quite violent evictions um and um they were quite scary events and um we'd want to go and bolster numbers up a bit and give support um we went as a small group
01:17:52 support um we went as a small group probably then I think as well I remember on a couple of occasions times we just go to take collections we've made logs food
01:18:08 collections we've made logs food um um either by car um I think hm 33 helped out there um um or as I say sometimes coaches went on bigger occasions that would be though with the coaches
01:18:16 coaches probably Hillary can I refer you now to the document ucpi 29293 so this is B6 in the hn33 section of the bundle
01:18:27 ucpi
01:18:38 29293 this is um what's called a brief from the security service regarding greenham common women's peace Camp so the security service sending to the
01:18:51 the security service sending to the SDS um what sometimes referred to as a shopping
01:18:59 shopping list and can we look at paragraph one to begin with the security service are asking the SDS who are the main organizers and we see it C in greenham women against Crews and D in Lambeth support group and in any of the other
01:19:15 support group and in any of the other large support groups you may not be able to comment on this but in your view do you think Lamberth support group refers to Lambeth women for peace or were there other Lambeth support groups for greenham
01:19:28 greenham common I wasn't aware of any others in lambath I don't think um my memory serves me right I guess it means lambus s the
01:19:35 s the piece
01:19:37 piece hn33 has there's a report which we
01:19:49 hn33 has there's a report which we needn't turn to but she describes about 30 women's peace groups in London only 12 of which show Regular support for greenham
01:19:53 greenham common do you agree with that assessment of the number of support groups 30 across London 12 of which show support for greenham common or you not able to say it sounds quite large but I'm not sure do you
01:20:06 quite large but I'm not sure do you agree with as we can see on the screen Lambeth support group if that is lambath women for peace being one of the large support
01:20:16 support groups I don't know I can't compare it with other groups I mean you I've sort of referred to how many women attended I
01:20:29 of referred to how many women attended I don't know if that's the large or not um we weren't massive in numbers um with the core group at all I want to call it that larger group no we can see at 1B here the security service are asking who are the main
01:20:43 service are asking who are the main organizers at the London office 79 Pon Road
01:20:48 Road N5 could you explain for us what is the London
01:20:52 London office I don't think I ever visited the London office at all and I don't think think many members of Lamberth women for peace did um again I think that's
01:21:05 peace did um again I think that's something that Rebecca Johnson would be better place to report on um I gather that hn33 did infiltrate there quite a lot um I think she did sometimes go as a rep as
01:21:24 I think she did sometimes go as a rep as it were to some bigger meetings but um I really haven't got much to say about that yeah c can we look at another document please ucpi 20789 so this is C50 in the hn33
01:21:54 section this is um not a report on a meeting but a report concerning greenham common women and their supporters that hn33 has submitted can we turn to paragraph five
01:22:10 please par paragraph five please thank you the London Office of the greenham common women peace Camp is run on a volunteer basis by women from the support groups prominent in the organization of the office are privacy from South London women for peace Lee bonser from Lambeth women for peace and
01:22:23 bonser from Lambeth women for peace and privacy who until recently was living at the camp
01:22:28 the camp hn33 has said she thinks that's perhaps an exaggeration of her role in Lamb sorry in the London office can you speak to her role in the London office or is that outside of your
01:22:43 that outside of your knowledge I think I do have a memory of her occasionally perhaps going to a meeting but I I mean one or two occasions we didn't have a lot to do with the London office as a group um though laterally I think there were a
01:22:57 though laterally I think there were a couple of women in Lambo women for peace who did have more to do with it not um Lee um South London women for peace refers to another group that I think were based in balum I think um um we
01:23:09 were based in balum I think um um we knew some of the individuals from that um yeah I mean prominent in the organization sounds crazy but who knows what she was up to yeah using the cover of lambers women for peace in her
01:23:23 of lambers women for peace in her witness statement hn33 has said she thinks that attending the London office might have given her more opportunity to obtain
01:23:35 given her more opportunity to obtain information about people involved in the group presumably involved in greenham common can you help us with whether that's a fair assessment I don't know really again I'd say Rebecca is the best person to answer that one thing about that document
01:23:48 that one thing about that document though that I think I've seen before is 20789 just by the way I know it's not what you're asking about but just while we're on it it's it mentioned something about the finances of the camp and office and I think one of the things
01:24:03 office and I think one of the things that's come to light is that Lee was a signatur on a bank account for green common which just seems outrageous um and I would have thought well beyond the remit of her role um with the SDS um I
01:24:17 remit of her role um with the SDS um I think you're referring to paragraph 11 of that um report where it talks about um the London
01:24:32 London account has a balance of £5,500 and the building Society contains about £4,000
01:24:34 £4,000 and you correctly identify that hn33 at some point was a signatory of the greenham accounts are you able to speak to whether those figures are
01:24:45 speak to whether those figures are typical figures no I have no idea at all um about that again I'd refer to Rebecca
01:24:57 um about that again I'd refer to Rebecca if I wanted to find out about that maybe could could we look at paragraph six of this
01:25:07 document halfway through that paragraph it says contact between the camp and support groups is mainly by mail outs of information initiated from the office brackets except for those groups whose
01:25:20 brackets except for those groups whose women work in the office or regularly go to
01:25:20 to greenham is that in your mind an accurate description of how how contact operated between greenham common and the support
01:25:34 support groups um mail outs yes I guess so yes um gosh it's so hard to think of pre- interet days um yes we would have got um some mailings in some way or somebody would have been at the camp and come
01:25:48 would have been at the camp and come back with news yes it says except for those groups whose women work in the office did Lee Bon's involvement in the London office have an effect on Lambeth
01:25:59 London office have an effect on Lambeth women for peace I don't remember lots of report Backs from the office on behalf of Lee at all no um I I do believe she went there and reported back but a
01:26:12 went there and reported back but a minimal occasions I'd say you know and the the reference to mail outs of information you may not be able to remember but would those have included uh plans where the plans
01:26:24 included uh plans where the plans involve breaking the law as well as not breaking the
01:26:32 law not too clear about that I mean it would have there would have been plans for actions um so there was always the possibility that law breaking was going to take place but as I say it was at
01:26:50 to take place but as I say it was at such a low level um on the whole um no I don't think so there have been secrecy I'm sorry I interrupted you I don't think I can say much more I don't can't remember is your memory of there being any secrecy about plans which involved
01:27:02 any secrecy about plans which involved cutting the fence or entering the base for example there's only that one occasion that I remember that um which I think um has been written about in a few
01:27:14 think um has been written about in a few of the reports um to my memory which was um when the the fence was cut and um there was a code word about Cardigans being used um which actually meant B Cutters yes and um that kind of went out
01:27:28 Cutters yes and um that kind of went out by word of mouth Yes um um rather than I don't know there may have been some sort of May I can't remember actually
01:27:39 of May I can't remember actually how can I refer you now to a paragraph in hn 33's witness statement this is MPS 0745
01:27:47 0745 970 so it's A2 in the h33 section
01:27:57 page 18 please paragraph
01:28:17 63 and over on to the next page if you're able
01:28:24 to is that big enough to read oh we're having it enlarged
01:28:35 you can't read the first part now it's gone on top up right I think we're there the greenham common peace Camp was the nucleus of the protest movement all the other groups associated with them were really just supporting them in order to
01:28:51 really just supporting them in order to report on the greenham common peace Camp without having to camp out permanently there I infiltrated Lambeth women for peace a support group do you firstly agree that the choice for
01:29:06 do you firstly agree that the choice for hn33 as an undercover officer was either between camping permanently at greenham common or joining a support group like Lambeth women for peace oh dear I mean well we we were in London so we were right a long way away from greenham common if that was what
01:29:18 from greenham common if that was what was what was the purpose but the whole it just raises the whole question about the kind of policing of greenham common
01:29:32 the kind of policing of greenham common and what was the need for somebody like hn33 to be paid for by taxpayers money for four years um plus um sorry can you tell me your question again I'm just taking it in my question
01:29:45 again I'm just taking it in my question was do you agree that the choice for h& 33 was either to Camp permanently at greenham common or to join a support group like Lambeth women for peace where those the only two options open to her do you
01:29:59 do you think I have no idea what her options were it's I mean greenham should not have been the victim of surveillance lambath women for peace most certainly
01:30:10 lambath women for peace most certainly should not have been um can you comment on the effectiveness of using Lambeth women for peace as a means of accessing intelligence about greenham common well as I say we were based in Lamberth you know we we met once a week
01:30:25 Lamberth you know we we met once a week I don't think think we knew all of what was going on at greenham but it just begs the point all the time of where the greenham should ever had surveillance from the SDS you know there were plenty
01:30:40 from the SDS you know there were plenty of police there military personnel that could have had a much more light touch way of finding
01:30:46 information Hillary I'd like to move on now to the topic of nonviolent direct action we can take that document down thank you we've heard a lot about nonviolent Direct action in evidence
01:30:57 nonviolent Direct action in evidence over the last couple of days what does nvda mean to
01:31:03 you um well I think there's a lot of historical basis for nvda if you look at the women's suffrage movement the American Civil Rights Movement um kind of gandhian principles of Indian
01:31:24 of gandhian principles of Indian independence um it's creative actions um like the Clapham common peace camp um
01:31:26 um nonviolent is the core to it and that was the core to lambus women for peace and
01:31:35 and greenham direct action so things that would capture people's attention sometimes I remember an occasion where women dressed as judges women from Lambo women for peace and cycled around in
01:31:48 women for peace and cycled around in London when there was the American court case at the end of 83 I think um it was trying to capture aention in a different kind of way um as opposed to
01:32:01 kind of way um as opposed to demonstrations which we often joined in with but we were trying to be more creative um there was a whole thing about nonviolent direct action too I mean we did have training which I think
01:32:13 mean we did have training which I think you'll probably refer to sometimes on a couple of
01:32:14 couple of occasions um I think um and that was about um because any action with a group like um lamb women for peace you know
01:32:26 like um lamb women for peace you know you wanted to build relationships as a group an affinity group so a lot of those sort of training things would be about group work like that um about the value of having observers around if something was going to be happening
01:32:38 something was going to be happening about if there was the likelihood of
01:32:49 about if there was the likelihood of arrest um how should you behave um what might you expect it wasn't some thing that we caughted at all you know um lambus women for peace um didn't go out ever to get arrested and it was quite a scary thought to us you know lots of us had quite responsible full-time job public
01:33:09 quite responsible full-time job public sector Etc and um the thought of being arrested was quite a big deal um so why was nonviolence important to the women's peace
01:33:24 movement well it's intrinsic into feminism as well and um we were making a stand against the most horrible form of violence in nuclear weapons you know it
01:33:35 violence in nuclear weapons you know it nonviolence was absolutely a Cornerstone of everything that we believed and that was the message that we wanted to get across how was it decided what did or did not constitute non-violent direct action I think you've talked about
01:33:47 action I think you've talked about thinking through whether cutting the fence for example constituted
01:33:58 fence for example constituted nonviolence can you explain that to us uh I do remember remember one meeting yes um where that was a subject for discussion um yeah I think we took things like that very seriously you know but at the core it was about violence against people and in the whole scheme
01:34:14 against people and in the whole scheme of things in weighing up the impact of a cruise missile as opposed to making Snips in the fence that protected the cruise missiles and all the catastrophe that could happen from them being
01:34:28 that could happen from them being launched um I think we took the decision that that was okay and uh
01:34:43 that that was okay and uh yeah I've referred I've referred already to the 1983 SDS annual report can we bring that up now please it's MPS 07309
01:34:53 03 and Page 15 please so this is the report written by the SDS managers summarizing the work done by the SDS in the year
01:35:08 1983 page 15
01:35:22 please and can we zoom in on paragraph 27
01:35:30 you can see just at the top of the page this section of the report is about greenham common women's peace camp and there's a paragraph within that section that reads this coming year so
01:35:45 section that reads this coming year so 1984 should also see the more widespread emergence of non-violent direct action groups throughout the United Kingdom this network evolved from the spring of 1983 blockade of upper Hayford Airbase
01:35:59 1983 blockade of upper Hayford Airbase and comprises small cells of like-minded individuals who can combine to organize larger Collective actions the nvda network has no centralized structure and no office or permanent base and to
01:36:10 no office or permanent base and to effectively monitor its activities and intentions is likely to prove increasingly difficult in future you've already touched briefly on the history of nvda and I think you'd probably
01:36:23 of nvda and I think you'd probably disagree that it evolved in the spring of
01:36:25 of 1983 it's a crazy paragraph Yes small cells of likeminded sorry it's gone now um no centralized structure it seems to
01:36:37 um no centralized structure it seems to misunderstand the whole thing like it's a nvda is a movement of its own um no sen no office no permanent base I mean nvda informed some of the actions that
01:36:56 nvda informed some of the actions that were taken by Green it underlined things and and and for lambus wom for peace it's just crazy to say no office or permanent bits what's your take on the part which says more widespread emergence of nvda throughout the UK in
01:37:16 emergence of nvda throughout the UK in 1984 the coming year do can did you see a change in the amount of nonviolent direct
01:37:26 direct action in 1983 1984 at the start of that paragraph a lot to take in can I I just read it
01:37:29 again were both my small
01:37:45 S I mean the whole the march to greenham was direct action nvda it doesn't make any sense really nvda has been used for decades to bring home political
01:37:59 used for decades to bring home political points it's a tool and it makes it sound like it's a a sort of movement of its own it's a barmy kind of paragraph can we go back to the security service brief that we looked at earlier ucpi
01:38:12 ucpi 29293 so it's B6 in the hn33
01:38:24 bundle and on page two if we could zoom in on paragraph six please you'll remember Hillary this is the requests from the security service
01:38:35 the requests from the security service to the SDS and here they're asking what policies do the various elements of greenh and common women's peace Camp advocate in respect to Future action in particular what are the current views on nonviolent direct
01:38:46 nonviolent direct action I think your evidence is that nonviolent direct action was part of greenham common and Lamberth women for peace from the start it did it develop over
01:39:01 over time um it was just it was intrinsic into who we are it informed the creativity and Imagination of lots of the actions um it underlined everything
01:39:12 the actions um it underlined everything it's just um a total misunderstanding of it all it seems current views on nonviolent direct action it that was what it was about um if there were to be actions they were nonviolent yeah
01:39:25 nonviolent yeah still on the topic of nonviolent direct action but we can take that document down thank you you've already referred to training weekends how many training weekends can you
01:39:35 you remember did lamth women for peace weekends I think that was because I saw a reference in one of my diaries that made it look as if there was something that was happening on a Saturday and a
01:39:48 that was happening on a Saturday and a Sunday can you remember how many times such weekends were put on by Lambeth women for peace I don't think we ever put one on um I think we probably attended ones organized maybe by CND um I don't
01:40:04 CND um I don't remember um J I think we might have joined in with mvda um training you've helpfully provided for us a leaflet from the
01:40:18 provided for us a leaflet from the training this is ucpi 3694 2 so it's A14 in the Hillary Moore's bundle
01:40:36 this is a leaflet relating to nvda training who I think you've said you joined in CND training can you help with who would have been running a training course on nvda who would have been the person
01:40:53 nvda who would have been the person leading the meeting no I have no idea at this distance I I don't even know that it was CND but I know that we didn't organize it ourselves for sure let's look at some of the detail of this
01:41:00 this document we can zoom in at the very
01:41:11 top it says introductions share names relevant experiences fears and anxieties and at two make sure you understand the Practical implications of action go through legal briefing three before action think
01:41:25 briefing three before action think through all the other implications of what you are doing why are you doing this blockade what do you hope to gain for yourself for the movement how will it affect other work you are doing how do you feel about it share these
01:41:36 do you feel about it share these feelings this will help you ensure that the positives outweigh the negatives and help sort out what roles you want to take and if we can move down a bit
01:41:52 take and if we can move down a bit please action how will you do the action we've will link arms sing move lie down are these common examples of non-violent direct action in your mind absolutely
01:42:07 direct action in your mind absolutely yes yes will you talk to the police or be silent how will you keep warm will you work in shifts what do you like eating what's practical to eat and then skipping down the next paragraph onto the following one how will you deal with confrontation nonviolence on your part
01:42:20 confrontation nonviolence on your part does not unfortunately mean people will treat you non-violently how do you feel about being kicked or shouted at what if someone wants to talk to you what if men want to sit down with you how will you
01:42:32 want to sit down with you how will you support Stoke Peacekeeper each other how will you deal with anger directed at you coming from you how will you deal with arrest going limp total cooperation and
01:42:46 arrest going limp total cooperation and then skipping down to the bottom of that section talking through all these questions and I'm sure there are more sharing ideas and experiences will help best of all role play some of the situations see what emerges and what you
01:43:02 situations see what emerges and what you can learn from it is this typical of the non-violent direct action that you remember I think it um yes I don't have very strong memories of it I have to say
01:43:15 very strong memories of it I have to say but uh yeah there's things there that um Echo yes yeah um dealing with the emotional side as I said before you know taking part in anything I I have a
01:43:27 taking part in anything I I have a feeling this refers to a specific action um and I can't date it again I have a a suspicion that Rebecca would immediately give the date if she was addressing it um but I think there might have been
01:43:39 um but I think there might have been some of the things you read there um kind of echoed um uh I think there was a feeling that there could be groups around who weren't going to be as
01:43:50 around who weren't going to be as peaceful I think it was there was a mixed demonstration as well it might have been between two bases um it's possibility that it was something that was organized by CND d as well um but
01:44:02 was organized by CND d as well um but I'm really not sure so I wouldn't like to say what it refers to um but it does sound like there was a particular action in mind um but the examples are absolutely the sort of things we do um
01:44:15 absolutely the sort of things we do um in terms of decorating the fence singing
01:44:26 in terms of decorating the fence singing and um linking arms around the base yeah and does this help with what kind of attitude the women you knew took to nonviolent direct action and indeed breaking the law um certainly in terms of nonviolent
01:44:40 law um certainly in terms of nonviolent direct action yes yes it does yes um uh you know the emotional side was um something that we needed to consider as well not just the action itself we can take that document down now thank you
01:44:58 take that document down now thank you to your knowledge did Lambeth women for peace or greenham common actions ever involve
01:45:00 involve violence not to my knowledge not well certainly not Lambo women and it's my knowledge not from greenham that was against the whole ethos sadly there was
01:45:14 against the whole ethos sadly there was violence at greenham and again Rebecca's the person who could best address that because she gives many examples in her statement um but I'm not a party to any of that I did see some very rough
01:45:28 of that I did see some very rough handling of women at greenham myself um but no violence from protesters and women who went to the camp and certainly not from Lambo
01:45:41 women you've mentioned already the Clapham common women's peace camp that lambath women for peace organized we're going to briefly look at that before we turn to the time when Lee bonser turned up at lamth women for peace
01:46:01 up at lamth women for peace so this peace Camp was I think the 21st to the 24th of May 1983 to Mark International women's day for disarmament can we look at the leaflet please at ucpi 36934 and this is A6 in the Hillary Mo
01:46:16 bundle page five please
01:46:36 we can see there reference to Saturday 21st midday come and join the camp the next day there's reference to a peace picnic and entertainment
01:46:49 to a peace picnic and entertainment Monday the 23rd paint and so for peace can you just describe to us in brief what happened at the peace camp on clap and
01:47:00 and common um it was a very successful event and it a flavor of some of the things that happened um women came and set up camp in tents and there were activities
01:47:12 camp in tents and there were activities through the day lots of discussions lots of creative activities activities for children um meetings um we were visited by local counselors
01:47:30 by local counselors Harriet Harmon came along and spoke who local MP and supported the camp um it had a really nice atmosphere to it I hardly I don't think I remember police presence at all which I'm sure one must
01:47:45 presence at all which I'm sure one must have passed by but it was um so peaceful um what else entertainment yeah there were a few Fringe theater groups The Fallout marching band different kind of entertainments um on the the Tuesday I
01:47:56 entertainments um on the the Tuesday I can see local pickets that was that was the actual day I think of disarmament and we had a peace bus in London that was paid for by the GLC and um we used quite often as lambers women for peace and two members of lambers women for
01:48:12 and two members of lambers women for piece were actually employed on it um and we used the bus to go around Lamberth and um have some small pickets take local women who wanted to get on
01:48:24 take local women who wanted to get on board the bus and um picket I remember myself standing outside the central office of
01:48:26 office of information um which was where the leaflet protect and survive which was a crazy leaflet that was sent out to all households in the 80s about how to
01:48:42 households in the 80s about how to survive a a nuclear poost absolute mad leaflet um so we were trying to highlight different places um that um were to do with the whole nuclear question um how many people attended the
01:48:58 question um how many people attended the peace Camp over these days we can see it was a uh people came and went um it was really lovely lots of people um came and went men and women children and um it was women who were camping there but
01:49:13 was women who were camping there but there was a constant Buzz of activity it was really creative it got covered in the local media I seem to remember that Jane and I were interviewed BBC local
01:49:25 Jane and I were interviewed BBC local news um it was a really really positive event and I think it really did highlight um the issues that greenan was trying to raise and also the fact the big point of it was that clap and common would be a mass burial ground in the
01:49:37 would be a mass burial ground in the event of nuclear war that was part of the government's plans it was one of the sites for Mass burial was there any disorder over this event none
01:49:49 disorder over this event none whatsoever you've described in your witness statement that you sought permission to camp but then you didn't have time to make an application to the immunity service committee but I think
01:50:02 immunity service committee but I think camping did take place is that right yes yes um I can't remember the details though that you've got I don't think we need to go into a huge amount of detail that uh ultimately you you notified the council but there wasn't time to get
01:50:13 council but there wasn't time to get permission they we had meetings with them I remember going to a meeting with Jane talking to Mr gilby of council
01:50:24 Jane talking to Mr gilby of council immunities and yeah yeah we tried to do as much as we could to cooperate there was there ever in your mind a risk that echos of the greenham camp would be
01:50:36 echos of the greenham camp would be heard in London and a camp would be set up permanently on G on clap him common no that wasn't part you describe in your witness statement that this was probably
01:50:48 witness statement that this was probably the most successful of Lambeth women for Pie's local actions in what way in your mind was it the most most successful I think it drew a really positive response from people passing by
01:51:01 positive response from people passing by and we were able to engaged with lots of people um it was a very very positive thing and I think um more people came
01:51:15 thing and I think um more people came more women came along to lambus women for peace afterwards and possibly to other local groups well local peace groups and of course as we know hn33 rolled through the door very soon after that at Lamberth women for peace
01:51:26 after that at Lamberth women for peace as well so one month later this was in May one month later as you say Lee bonser arrived at Lamberth women for peace you first met her in June
01:51:40 peace you first met her in June 1983 just um so we can place it in time how roughly how many greenham Camp events had you attended before Lee bonser joined lamth women for peace are you talking about me personally or yes you personally
01:51:53 personally or yes you personally um I've got a few notes here from my di so she came along in June correct um I'd been to the camp three times at the end of 1992 I've already referred to the
01:52:15 of 1992 I've already referred to the first time I went me 1982 do you Hillary I do I've actually written 1992 1982 I do mean that and then in 1983 I'd been to greenham Common twice before
01:52:28 twice before hn33 came to the meetings in terms of hn 33's involvement in Lambeth women for peace her summary is that she attended meetings or demonstrations two to three evenings a week do you think that's
01:52:44 evenings a week do you think that's accurate uh at that time yes we were very very active in 1983 yes so I think two evenings a week and maybe some activity at weekend like leaf or a meeting or maybe a demonstration or going to greenham how
01:53:00 demonstration or going to greenham how involved was Lee bonser in Lambeth women for peace she got involved very quickly sorry excuse me sorry about that don't worry
01:53:14 that don't worry Hillary you were telling us how involved Lee bonser was in lambath women for peace um um very involved yes she got involved in all aspects of um the group
01:53:27 involved in all aspects of um the group um sorry do you mind if I close the door I'm really sorry
01:53:38 this you said earlier that some Lamberth women for peace events took place in private homes did Lee bonser attend any meetings in private homes she did indeed
01:53:51 meetings in private homes she did indeed yes I I I mean she very quickly became a very active member of the group group and I'd just like to mention as well you know from the beginning we thought it was incredibly odd and I've mentioned this in my statement um she just didn't fit in in some ways um which is no
01:54:11 fit in in some ways um which is no surprise perhaps but she had this um as they call it um in the SDS her Legend was that she'd come from an abusive violent relationship which seemed a very strange reason for joining a women's peace group that was anti-nuclear it just didn't have up at all um and also
01:54:25 just didn't have up at all um and also if we just oh sorry yeah sorry no I was just going to say that it just seemed to underline in retrospect again this sexism and misogyny in the SDs that
01:54:42 sexism and misogyny in the SDs that somebody would come into a women's peace group with a madeup story about abuse and
01:54:43 and violence do you think this backstory enhanced in any way Lee Bona's access to or credibility in Lambeth women for
01:54:57 or credibility in Lambeth women for peace no not at all it just seemed very strange why she turned up there I mean she was she seemed a bit of enigma from the start I think she part of her thing was she was a fitness instructor which
01:55:12 was she was a fitness instructor which was a very different job or had been and she worked in an estate agents which we now know is true it was part of her cover they were very she had a very different Persona than other women in
01:55:23 different Persona than other women in the group who were working you know in public sector kind of jobs quite responsible jobs very very different just staying with her um background that she the legend of coming out of a
01:55:35 she the legend of coming out of a domestic abuse relationship can we look at the reasons that hn33 points to as to why she Incorporated that into her
01:55:49 why she Incorporated that into her background I'll show you some paragraphs from her witness statement which is MPS 0745 970
01:55:52 0745 970 A2
01:55:55 so page six
01:56:12 please and paragraph
01:56:22 15 hn33 has said in her inquiry witness St M no guidance or instruction was given to me on sexual relationships at all I avoided any interest in me from members of my group by referring to having just come out of a violent
01:56:39 having just come out of a violent relationship do you think this backstory was necessary or effective in avoiding interest from members of the group it's just such a weird paragraph um
01:56:51 um no no is the answer you know it was a horrible cover um that that she had there um and the other big point there as well is no guidance or instruction
01:57:04 as well is no guidance or instruction was given and it seems that no guidance or instruction was given to any of the other cover officers and um it's well documented now where that led in a lot of the office of the male officers cases can we look at a second paragraph from
01:57:17 can we look at a second paragraph from her witness statement page 7 paragraph 24
01:57:27 the cover background to my assumed identity included that I had left an abusive husband had left my friends and family behind and moved to South London this provided an explanation for the apparent lack of family and friends that
01:57:38 apparent lack of family and friends that I had did that Legend serve that purpose in your memory in explaining the lack of family and
01:57:55 friends uh this is a difficult one want to comment on it my memory of it is so you know such a long time ago I do remember coming along my overriding memory is that it all sounded really strange really she it just didn't all add up everything about her and um I
01:58:08 add up everything about her and um I think lots of us had sort of question marks about her from the very beginning but she got involved in the group in a
01:58:22 but she got involved in the group in a very helpful way that she had um and we took people as they were we took women as they were people came through the door um and people had different stories it seemed a strange she didn't seem to have many politics that was more what
01:58:39 have many politics that was more what would concerned us um it was a sad story um add up why she was there maybe we didn't ask too many questions I'm sure
01:58:53 didn't ask too many questions I'm sure we were very sympathetic I don't really remember to be honest though can I put up for you a photograph ucpi
01:58:55 ucpi 36943 it's a15 sir in the Hillary Mo bundle I think you hopefully have that photograph to hand yes I've got
01:59:17 it the bottom photograph who do you say we can see in this photo that's um ne ne that's
01:59:22 that's hn33 at the lambus country show so this is early in her deployment is that correct uh yes uh I've got dated that it was the 23rd 24th of July 1983 so she'd
01:59:33 was the 23rd 24th of July 1983 so she'd only been with the group for a few weeks for a month um and she was um helping or seems to be fronting actually in this picture a stall of Lambo women for peace
01:59:50 picture a stall of Lambo women for peace at the lambus country show did hn33 look the part Hillary [Laughter] well she seems to there's been a few jokes about that since um yes I think in her statement she says how she dressed
02:00:03 her statement she says how she dressed in a different way changed her hairstyle Etc um she seems to have the police issued dungar that look a lot NE to than most people's and she's wearing a badge that I can't make out were there any other reasons why
02:00:17 out were there any other reasons why suspicion was aroused in the group in relation to Lee bonser I think the lack of politics really I mean all of us
02:00:40 of politics really I mean all of us were driven by this fear about nuclear weapons and we have internationalist politics and feminist politics Lee didn't seem to have any feminist politics at all um so yeah she was a bit different but as I say it was an open door and um she
02:00:51 as I say it was an open door and um she proved very helpful in lots of ways she had a car which was unusual in Lambo women for peace so that you know that was provided obviously for her what what impact of did that have on you or the
02:01:06 impact of did that have on you or the group that fact had a car well most of us were um dependent on bicycles um or our own feet or buses so
02:01:18 bicycles um or our own feet or buses so it was very useful if things were to be collected um it was also she was very generous in giving lifts places uh
02:01:29 generous in giving lifts places uh particularly to green and common um yeah did you ever attend actions because she drove you that you wouldn't otherwise have
02:01:30 have attended um I doubt that um but she certainly did drive me on a couple new more than two occasions to greenham Common I think uh yes you've
02:01:45 Common I think uh yes you've described that the group had suspicions about Lee bonser about her employment her politics her personal background did the group do anything about those Su
02:01:59 suspicions no well I have no memory of this but other members of the group think there was an occasion where um it was tested out a little bit whether Lee
02:02:10 was tested out a little bit whether Lee was a an Informer of some kind and there was a drip feeding of some information about an action that wasn't out there in the open in frer to see if um police would turn up it was demonstr remember
02:02:25 would turn up it was demonstr remember that yourself no I didn't no so are you are you able to help us with when that was or what happened I'm afraid I can't no I think Jane Hickman refers to it in her statement she may be able to do
02:02:39 her statement she may be able to do thisise what kind of relationship did Lee bonsa have with the Lambeth women for peace
02:02:51 members um she was a sociable sort of person I mean we had a habit where after a meeting we'd go and have a drink after the meeting Lee would join us at the local pub
02:03:00 local pub um as I say she took part in many activities of the group um but aside of the kind of focus of the group the politics and the activities um there were occasional
02:03:13 activities um there were occasional social outings of one sort or another perhaps meals out to which she was no doubt a party on some occasions um I did have a note in the
02:03:26 occasions um I did have a note in the diaries that I still have from the ' 80s of a time when she came around for a meal at my house um a bit surprised to see it in retrospect I don't particularly remember it but um I've
02:03:39 particularly remember it but um I've made a note that she was coming around with two other women from Lambo women for peace um so she did a bit of socializing I wouldn't have considered her a friend but you know we we had that thing in common and um very usly a
02:03:52 thing in common and um very usly a friend and I think most of the other woman women would have said the same thing whereas some of us have continued
02:04:03 thing whereas some of us have continued to have friendships through the decades and had a lot in common it would have been hard to envisage that happening with
02:04:07 with Lee s is now in convenient moment for a break certainly we always have a break
02:04:20 break certainly we always have a break of about 15 minutes at this time so that the transcriber can have the break that is needed we'll break for 15 minutes
02:04:50 for
02:22:49 e e
02:23:50 can you hear me okay yes I'd like us immediately to turn to a report by hn33 ucpi 2254 B22 sir in the Hillary Mo can we zoom in on the paragraph
02:24:08 Mo can we zoom in on the paragraph two this is a report from hn33 on the 1st of October 1985 about you it reads Hillary Moore an active member of Lambeth women for peace and the South London anti-apartheid group has left her employment as a
02:24:23 group has left her employment as a teacher of children who require special education today 1st October 1985 she begins a one-year diploma course at The Institute of Education Russell Square
02:24:36 Institute of Education Russell Square wc1 the subject is still living and then at and she gives your address I think you've got a comment on the accuracy of that report well it's not accurate why on
02:24:54 report well it's not accurate why on Earth it was that was reported on anyway but I hadn't left my employment I was very fortunate to be given a Year's full-time pace of comment at The Institute of education and I was going back to the same employment I don't know why that was relevant to anything but
02:25:06 why that was relevant to anything but it's likeed so much that she reported the other instances of reporting details of personal information um all sorts to do with
02:25:18 information um all sorts to do with other people the relation Etc how would Lee bonser have known that you were starting a diploma that day I guess I was probably I mean it would have been just chat I mean if we had a drink
02:25:30 been just chat I mean if we had a drink all of us after I mean it's I'm looking at the date it's 1985 so the group have been together the core group a lot of us
02:25:43 been together the core group a lot of us have been together for a couple of years people women came and went but um you know we did know the details of each other's personal lives that cool group and um yeah I was probably quite excited at getting a year on full pay at The
02:25:54 at getting a year on full pay at The Institute of education on a course I really wanted to do did your suant
02:26:08 really wanted to do did your suant affect the amount of time you devoted to activism um I don't recall that it had much impact on it um or an effect on your activist networks no no I don't think so not at all how do you feel about the fact you're the subject of a report that's
02:26:21 you're the subject of a report that's been obtained in special Branch files and disseminated to MI5 I think it's disgusting I mean what relevance that has to anything that particular report or any report I mean I'm I can see as
02:26:37 or any report I mean I'm I can see as well that over the years every well the regular members of lambers women for peace gradually acquired special branch numbers it's obvious from hm 33's
02:26:50 numbers it's obvious from hm 33's reports um where she gives um number numers um I just wonder what other information there is I mean my own number seems to go back to 1975 um though I've not received any
02:27:04 1975 um though I've not received any information on why it does it also seems to have a cut in it 4 something 402 which I believe means extreme left wing which has been attributed to me which is just B me Beyond um uh it's
02:27:23 which is just B me Beyond um uh it's just horrendous that those records have been kept and whereever made of myself or anybody else in the group totally unwarranted we can take that document down now thank you you've described that Lee bonser
02:27:34 you you've described that Lee bonser made herself helpful in Lambeth women for peace and I think one thing she did was to take minutes at meetings did she
02:27:45 was to take minutes at meetings did she take those minutes in a specific Minutes book for Lambeth women for peace we did um have a Minutes book as such it was very sketchy um but
02:27:56 such it was very sketchy um but interestingly I might have mentioned in in my statement I can't remember Lee seems to have taken minutes more than anybody else because it was handwritten um we've noticed that um
02:28:07 handwritten um we've noticed that um would she have taken the minutes home with her between meetings I'm really not sure about that there seems a suspicion
02:28:19 sure about that there seems a suspicion um but I have no definite memory of that but we have a suspicion that people who took the minutes might have taken the book away with them which might account for sometimes weeks of Gap when there's no minutes seem to have been taken they were very cursory minutes anyway but no
02:28:37 were very cursory minutes anyway but no doubt it would have been very useful to her if she could take it away with her something else that Lee bonser did on one occasion we needn't turn to the report I don't think but she facilitated a meeting can you explain briefly for us what that means to facilitate a Lambeth women for peace meeting
02:28:50 women for peace meeting it would have been decided on um when the when everybody got together you know
02:29:01 the when everybody got together you know one person would sort of I don't know we wouldn't quite call it chair facilitate it yes that just making sure everybody had a chance to speak and you know that there were things were done in quite an orderly fashion like that people not
02:29:13 orderly fashion like that people not talking on top of each other everybody's views been heard somebody would have either volunteered at the beginning we took it in turns to do that it was totally
02:29:20 totally Democratic like that we revolve roles like that in that role would she have directed the discussion at all
02:29:31 all um I don't think it could be put that
02:29:45 strongly can you help us with in your memory how many times did Lee bonsa go to greenham common with you or with Lambeth women for peace um
02:29:54 I mean in terms of Lambeth woming for peace um I'm guessing just having a look after she came to the group it looks like I went five times before so on my previous
02:30:05 five times before so on my previous count up I'm guessing I went 15 times after that um um I can see a couple of occasions
02:30:16 occasions when um she took me in the car three three times four times when I had a lift with her um and certainly would have gone on other occasions either on a
02:30:27 gone on other occasions either on a coach I have a feeling I don't remember her on a coach actually I wonder if she
02:30:39 her on a coach actually I wonder if she always took her car I'm just speculating there can we look at some photographs you've provided ucpi 3694
02:30:44 3694 5 it's a17 sir in the Hillary more bundle ucpi
02:30:52 3694 you'll see we've applied some priv redactions over some people in these photographs please don't say any of their names but can you explain who we can see in these
02:31:03 photographs sorry to find
02:31:12 them this is your documents headed documents referred to at paragraph 329 so the first two photographs are group photographs yeah the L LGE
02:31:24 group photographs yeah the L LGE group um and this would been taken in late 1983 and Le um there's a group about um 15 of us a large group who are visiting that weekend um I'm fairly sure that we
02:31:41 weekend um I'm fairly sure that we camped and Le's in the front row smiling and engaged with others in the group everybody looks quite happy she even seems to have her arm through somebody else's arm in one of the pictures
02:31:53 turning over the page to the third photograph you've labeled it Image six yeah that's a picture of um Lee with three other women from Lamberth women
02:32:06 three other women from Lamberth women for peace on the occasion of um the Kil being taken to greenham um to make um the pottery tiles for the Peace Garden and um yeah she's in conversation with three other women from the group and
02:32:19 three other women from the group and Tents in the background I'm fairly sure we did camp that weekend and um she would have camped if we turn over a couple of pages to the the photographs you've
02:32:34 pages to the the photographs you've headed sorry page four for the projector but you've headed greenham common women's peace Camp 1983 to4 Cafe Royal Photography book have you got those photographs yes yeah that was a a book I
02:32:48 photographs yes yeah that was a a book I came across in the Tate in Liverpool and my attention was drawn to it in the Bookshop because it had green and common it's a photograph book about green and common flicking through it there was a picture of Lee with a couple of other
02:33:00 picture of Lee with a couple of other women from Lambo women for peace and two women who I think must be women from the camp who are unknown to me so she's in conversation around the campfire yes and the final page page five for the
02:33:12 the final page page five for the projector images eight and nine on your copy Hillary yeah these what can we see here two photo graphs in the snow at greenham common which is the winter of
02:33:24 greenham common which is the winter of 9495 I'm fairly sure it was a day visit um and uh yes these actually swinging on a tree branch in one picture and uh
02:33:41 a tree branch in one picture and uh chatting with the group in the other picture and they're very informal pictures of um four other women from lambus women for
02:33:47 for peace might have just gone to walk around the base and say hello at a few Gates we can put those photographs to one side now thank
02:34:00 one side now thank you hn33 in her witness statement says the only criminal activity she participated in was she entered greenham common once because it would have been
02:34:13 common once because it would have been noted if she didn't do you agree that it would have been viewed suspiciously if Lee bonser had not entered the base um not particular particularly no um I'm not sure that all the women in
02:34:27 um I'm not sure that all the women in lambus women for peace ever did that um I don't know what I Haven a memory myself of her doing that so I can't comment on that particular occasion um but there wouldn't have been any
02:34:38 but there wouldn't have been any pressure at all to do that but maybe she was with a group where everybody else was doing it you know even if it was a small
02:34:44 small group did you ever see Lee bonser involved in any other non-violent direct action
02:34:56 action um I think you've said she often took the role of legal Observer yes yes she tended to try and take a back row I don't know about often because there weren't that many
02:35:07 because there weren't that many occasions but she would have been that would have been something that would suited Le much more yes yeah I mean there was never any pressure on anybody to partake in anything that yeah that would have been respected as a legal
02:35:22 would have been respected as a legal Observer did she to your knowledge ever provide a witness statement in support of an activist who'd been arrested I don't believe so not to my knowledge and to your knowledge did she ever contact a solicitor for somebody
02:35:35 ever contact a solicitor for somebody who's been who'd been arrested these are typical legal Observer roles not to my
02:35:41 knowledge Hillary I'd like to now look at
02:35:46 at cruzat can you just briefly explain for us what was cruzat um after the Cru missiles had come into green common um there was the the well
02:35:59 green common um there was the the well they were going to be taken on regular Maneuvers to sink into the countryside or merge into the countryside or something military Maneuvers
02:36:10 Maneuvers um and that was a very terrifying Prospect the thought of these missiles trundling around um the leafy Lanes so
02:36:24 trundling around um the leafy Lanes so women at the camp um um triy to obstruct that at the camp um and that was something we couldn't do in Lamberth most of us were working it was never known when the missiles would come out
02:36:37 known when the missiles would come out um when the Maneuvers would take place um uh and um so in terms of Lambeth women for peace we tried to do a small action each time we got the word from a
02:36:48 action each time we got the word from a telephone tree which is another thing um that um if the word was Cruis is out and if you got that message it meant we'd take a
02:36:59 take a local action in South London to highlight the fact and what we'd already planned in terms of ourselves was that we would um stop traffic very
02:37:12 we would um stop traffic very temporarily for a couple of minutes maybe at most on a level crossing at Clapham South um and we we distribute leaflets hold up blackards saying what
02:37:26 leaflets hold up blackards saying what was happening let those traffic through stopped some more so it was all very orderly can I show you a document um yes which is ucpi
02:37:39 which is ucpi 20922 it's c42 sir in hn 33's bundles ucpi
02:37:50 20922 this is a record of a meeting on the 13th of February of um three women's support groups from South London onw worth women against nuclear threat South London women for peace and
02:38:04 South London women for peace and Lamberth women for peace there were 16 women
02:38:06 women present it doesn't list you or Lee bonser as being present but I think paragraph five might assist if we could zoom in on paragraph five
02:38:29 action to be taken on the occasion of a cruise missile launcher leaving greenham common will take place outside Clapham South Underground Station it was decided subject to ratification that traffic
02:38:46 subject to ratification that traffic should be disrupted only enough to allow the distribution of leaflets the women feel that this will be less likely to lead to their arrest and and will enable them to inform commuters about the essential service routes with the
02:38:59 essential service routes with the minimum of inconvenience to the public is that an accurate summary of your memory of Lambeth women for pieces Cruise watch yes yes it is really yes that was our aim was to inform the public with the leaflets and placards
02:39:14 public with the leaflets and placards and not to cause not not to get people's backs up and cause a nuisance at the same time but to get them to listen to what we were trying to get across how often did Lambeth women for peace
02:39:25 often did Lambeth women for peace actually do a cruise watch action to your
02:39:30 your memory I wouldn't like to say precisely but my memory is that it was only a handful of times I was involved two or three but I can't be sure of that you mentioned a telephone tree can we please look at ucpi
02:39:46 look at ucpi 20538 so it's b3a in the Hillary Mo bundle ucpi 2053
02:40:05 eight h& 33's report submits a telephone Circle devised by Lambeth women for peace to be enacted should a cruise missile launcher leave the base at greenham common barkshire the purpose of the circle is
02:40:18 barkshire the purpose of the circle is to contact as many women as possible and make arrangements for a demonstration at a predetermined venue at a recent meeting of South London peace groups um the decision we
02:40:30 London peace groups um the decision we can see halfway through that paragraph the decision was to demonstrate at the underground station at Clapham South if we go on to paragraph
02:40:52 five both Lambeth and South London women's groups have agreed that 35 women from each will take part in the action whereas the remainder of the groups present would only commit two or three Representatives as the action at clap South will be women only it's likely women from CND groups will support this rather than the mixed actions and it
02:41:11 rather than the mixed actions and it goes on to describe one of those can we turn over the page to the this is the telephone tree which no longer looks like a tree with our privacy redactions applied but you can see our summary at
02:41:24 applied but you can see our summary at the top phone tree of 32 names including numbers for Lee work Jane H home and work Hillary home and work we've seen reference in the report to 35 women being put up from Lambeth women for peace there are 32 names on
02:41:39 women for peace there are 32 names on the tree how accurate do you think that is that there was going to be 35 women promised that's not you mean at at the action at Clapham south or on the yes
02:41:50 action at Clapham south or on the yes no my memory is of the that's been 6 to8 um but I can't remember that clearly but there certainly wasn't 35 I'm sure of that at any time can you remember
02:42:01 that at any time can you remember roughly how many people did attend a cruise watch action at clap him South Underground Station I can't be certain but I would
02:42:12 Station I can't be certain but I would have said it was more like six to eight women um 35 doesn't ring any bells whatsoever I can't imagine how that was the I might be wrong did Lee bonser participate in any Cruise watch actions
02:42:24 participate in any Cruise watch actions uh I can't be sure about that at all but one thing I do remember is how difficult unsurprisingly it always was to contact her because the telephone number she
02:42:40 her because the telephone number she gave was for the estate agents in Fulham where she had her cover part-time work job apparently I do remember phoning there a couple of times I don't think it was because of the telephone Circle I don't think I was down to phone her but I never con got to contact her it was
02:42:57 I never con got to contact her it was always they'd take a message for her so I'd be surprised if she even got the message of somebody phoning her at work on the same topic can we look at another SDS annual report this time is from
02:43:08 from 1986 MPS
02:43:11 1986 MPS 0728
02:43:13 0728 977 0728
02:43:21 977 0728 977 the 1986 annual report sir page 20
02:43:35 please this is again the SDS managers summarizing their work over the year 1986 we can see this section is headed women's peace movement green and
02:43:50 women during the past year groups within the women's peace movement such as lamth women for peace and greenham women in London have continued to support the peace camp at greenham common air base and to a lesser extent that at molesworth additionally they have generally been active in protesting
02:44:03 generally been active in protesting against the presence of cruise missiles in this country as well as supporting demonstrations in London which had an antiviolence or anti-racist theme whilst numerically the London membership of the
02:44:16 numerically the London membership of the various groups is quite limited there is no reason to suppose that their activities will in any way decreased during
02:44:26 during 1987 and we can thus expect to see a continuing presence albeit small at protests and demonstrations which campaign on the anti-nuclear issue the comment says not withstanding the very sensitive area of police monitoring of
02:44:42 sensitive area of police monitoring of the peace movement it must be said that certain elements within the various ad hoc groups are prepared should the circumstances demanded to resort to methods of direct action to make a political point the cruise watch picket
02:44:55 political point the cruise watch picket which recently resorted to an attack on the cruise Convoy severing the brake lines on one of the vehicles was one such case whilst it is recognized that some incidents are of a spontaneous
02:45:08 some incidents are of a spontaneous nature making the acquisition of Prior intelligence difficult the SDS will continue to monitor the Maverick side of the peace movement as resources permit Hillary your knowledge did any
02:45:20 permit Hillary your knowledge did any Cruise watch action ever cut any brake lines of vehicles I have no knowledge of that whatsoever but you know as I say I was in South London when those things
02:45:33 was in South London when those things happened so I don't mean they happened I mean I have no knowledge of that is cutting brake lines consistent with the kind of action that you understood peace groups to be carrying
02:45:44 groups to be carrying out um it wouldn't have been my way what's your view on whether this Falls within nonviolent direct
02:46:01 action if it puts somebody's life at risk who is driving I I wouldn't consider it myself nonviolent and yeah there's a lot of issues there but yeah we see at the end of that comment a description the
02:46:13 of that comment a description the Maverick side of the peace movement did you consider lambath women for peace or greenham com to be just to be Maverick no neither well certainly my
02:46:25 Maverick no neither well certainly my knowledge of greenh um and certainly not
02:46:39 knowledge of greenh um and certainly not Lambo women for peace Maverick um I mean there there was a very small element at greenham that Rebecca would be able to say more about and I think she has in her statement but I don't feel that I have the um experience on it to be able to comment
02:46:54 to comment I'd like to look at a specific event that Lambeth women for peace put on we've looked at the international women's day for disarmament in 1983 but can we now please look at 1984 so this was in May
02:47:05 1984 so this was in May 1984 can we have up please ucpi
02:47:13 20760 so it's B5 in the Hillary Moore bundle 2760
02:47:31 this is an hn33 report of a Lambeth women for peace meeting on the 3rd of April
02:47:37 April 1984 we can see just about there that eight women were
02:47:46 present can we look please at paragraph five
02:47:56 I'll try and read it to you lambath women for peace are to hold a third world bizaar at St Matthew's Church Hall Brixton on 24th of May to celebrate International women's day for
02:48:08 International women's day for disarmament included in the activities will be a March through Brixton bands and dancing from local ethnic minorities a picnic video shows provided by the GLC
02:48:24 a picnic video shows provided by the GLC peace bus and releasing Bo Balloons with messages of Hope the women will also hope to occupy the brickton center bunker brackets brickton Hill at some point during the day is this um a typical Lambeth women
02:48:37 day is this um a typical Lambeth women for peace event the description we can see
02:48:43 here it's a very unfortunate reporting dancing from local ethnic minorities that sounds absolutely appalling I don't know what that was goodness knows but it's certainly
02:48:56 was goodness knows but it's certainly not the language anybody in lambas women for peace would have used um I do remember um um it says third world bizarre maybe in the 1980s we did use
02:49:09 bizarre maybe in the 1980s we did use that term but um we did have a gathering I do remember um something similar I think you may have a leaflet about it actually might up soon I can show you that in a moment um do you have any memory of a plan to occupy the Brixton
02:49:22 memory of a plan to occupy the Brixton Center bunker on Brixton Hill I think it might have been talked about we knew the location of all the bunkers but I know it didn't happen you know there was often things talked about but um
02:49:35 often things talked about but um certainly didn't happen the next report in relation to this event I want to look at is ucpi 20841 B7 sir ucpi 20841
02:49:57 this is a lamth women for peace meeting on the 1st of May 1984 we can see 13 women were present and you facilitated the meeting on this occasion can we have paragraph five
02:50:13 please the remainder of the meeting was taken up with discussing the arrangements for the international bizaar lwp are holding on the 24th of May they intend to start the day with a
02:50:27 May they intend to start the day with a March from St Matthew's Community Center brickton Hill sw2 along Acre Lane to Clapham common through Clapham High Street and back to Brixton Hill via Stockwell Road this route is still to be agreed by the local
02:50:41 agreed by the local police do you remember whether the route was agreed with the local police before the
02:50:45 the event I can't say I did but um it would have been you know that's the way we operated we would have been trying to get agreement I can't remember whether the March took place or not um the day certainly did take place um the
02:50:58 certainly did take place um the international Bazaar as it's now called can we look at the next report on this event ucpi 20581 B8 sir 20581
02:51:42 this is a meeting on the 15th of May of Lambeth women for peace 15 members on this
02:51:46 this occasion can we turn to paragraph four please
02:51:50 I'm sorry in fact I need paragraphs 2 to
02:52:00 five paragraph three as has been usual in recent weeks the discussion concentrated on organizing events for 24th of May which so far has only confirmed the rote of the procession and it then gives it so is it perhaps the
02:52:14 it then gives it so is it perhaps the case that the route has been agreed by that point on the 15th of May I would guess so if it said says that yes yes paragraph 4 submitted here with are copies of the leaflet to be distributed and the letter to be sent out to groups
02:52:28 and the letter to be sent out to groups wishing to participate to whom would the leaflet have been
02:52:35 distributed um I think it res refers to an international bizaar um which I do seem to have a stronger memory of than of the um March um um and there were lots of groups lots of international
02:52:47 lots of groups lots of international groups participating in that so I guess they would be recipients and probably um
02:52:58 they would be recipients and probably um local other local peace groups um was it publicly advertised oh yes yes we I think the idea was to encourage members of the public to come yes yes paragraph
02:53:10 of the public to come yes yes paragraph five to round off the day lwp intend to join women from other peace groups in London at Jubilee gens se1 for an informal picnic stroke meeting at 7 p.m weather permitting and can we turn to page four you refer
02:53:25 and can we turn to page four you refer to the involvement of different groups this is a
02:53:28 this is a letter dated I think the 9th of
02:53:38 May to people who are wanting to participate I I think it says dear friends thanks for the interest you've shown in our ideas for May 24th International women's day for
02:53:49 International women's day for disarmament these are the plans for the day 10:00 a.m. assemble at St Matthews opposite brickton town hall with banners music Etc please bring your own banners and help make the parade as bright as possible then we can see 10:15 I think
02:54:09 possible then we can see 10:15 I think the parade sets off at 12: noon there's a picnic at St Matthews the next entry is stalls dancing music speakers exhibition slid shows theater I think badges painting and a balloon release
02:54:22 badges painting and a balloon release and if we scroll down to the list in the center of the
02:54:35 page it says we have a basic outline of that might be groups who have committed themselves these are some of the women we have so far I think that's we've heard from so far and there's a list of other groups are they the other groups involved in this event that Lambeth
02:54:46 involved in this event that Lambeth women for peace were putting on yeah I would yes I mean those were the kind of groups some of them that we were trying to attract ANC women's section
02:55:02 trying to attract ANC women's section Tamil women's League War on want Iranian women's league peace groups greenham speaker Nicaraguan Society is this a a sense of the broad base of support that definitely shown
02:55:18 base of support that definitely shown and the internationalism which was very key to Lambo women to have those links and quite interesting that that was already happening by the middle of 1984 and in fact um if that's the the I think
02:55:31 and in fact um if that's the the I think it might be the document you referred to pre previously but I think it's quite interesting is is this one 20581 this is yes yeah at the bottom of that I think it's quite interesting that we've made a decision that we'd rather
02:55:44 we've made a decision that we'd rather go on the anti-ap partite March and go to greenham the next weekend um that says not that we belittle in greenham but we obviously felt it was more important to be in London and take part in What Was I think going to be the
02:55:58 in What Was I think going to be the biggest anti-ap partite March there had been when President Botha was coming over to meet Mrs Sater can we just show on the screen page one paragraph 7 on to page two
02:56:08 page two please I think this is the part that you've just referred to could you zoom in on paragraph seven please
02:56:18 please the appeal for women to visit the peace camp on the first Saturday of each month was
02:56:23 was made but the visit of prime minister
02:56:34 made but the visit of prime minister both of South Africa on the 2nd of June was considered to be more important so it's unlikely lwp will go to the camp and that's the part you were just referring to yeah yeah I just think that's interesting in just talking about internationalism and you know the
02:56:46 internationalism and you know the group's um varying interests and it was such a big issue that particular particular visit of both is it the case that um greenham common wasn't the sole focus of Lambeth women for
02:56:59 focus of Lambeth women for peace no it wasn't it it began as being very much a greenham group and it was always at our heart and um we continue to visit greenham right the way through and support greenham um in every way we could but we did extend a lot I mean I
02:57:12 could but we did extend a lot I mean I think in some ways you you've probably got a report that suggests we might have been trying to stretch our ourselves too far sometimes we were very very busy
02:57:27 far sometimes we were very very busy trying to save the world coming back to the May
02:57:28 the May 1984 women's International disarmament
02:57:39 1984 women's International disarmament Day event I can show you the leaflet at ucpi 36 935 so it's 88 in Hillary moal bundle ucpi 369 35
02:57:58 is this part of the publicity that would have been made of that event by Lambeth women for piece and we can see there references to music from a band giant Inflatables banners
02:58:11 Inflatables banners stilts peace picnic Mass balloon release theater badges food can you remember what did happen that day
02:58:18 that day um I I'm only by jogging my memory looking at that but I'm sure that an event like that took place yes and was very successful can you remember how many people
02:58:30 many people attended uh no I can't I'm sure I remember it has been successful so can you remember whether there was any
02:58:42 you remember whether there was any disorder not to my memory was there any inconvenience caused to the public not I'm sure there wasn't we would have made sure there wasn't that
02:58:57 would have made sure there wasn't that wasn't the ethos of what we were trying to can we move on to a different topic in August
02:59:02 in August 1984 I think you went to a peace camp at broady and you've explained in your witness statement that you have a record in your diary of Lee bonser picking you up and driving you there yes to Wales you've said in your
02:59:17 there yes to Wales you've said in your witness statement that it was partly a holiday as well as a protest is that your memory it's very honest yes did I think it was yes did you take part in
02:59:29 think it was yes did you take part in any protests when you were there at bro in August
02:59:35 in August 1984 not in August no no it was a an an earlier visit to broady with other members of lambers women for peace some of whom were on the second visit too there was um um a bit of an
02:59:49 there was um um a bit of an action that happened while we were there that I think you've got some references too I think those in were in May but in August when you went with Lee bonser your your witness statement States you didn't think that you took part in any
03:00:07 didn't think that you took part in any protest no I don't believe we did can we look at a photograph you've provided ucpi
03:00:13 ucpi 36940 sir it's a12 in Hillary Moore's bundle ucpi 36940
03:00:23 this is your photograph the top of it says document referred to at paragraph 221 have you got that yes yes who do you say we can see in this photograph please don't mention any names of anyone who's been privacy
03:00:38 any names of anyone who's been privacy reducted it's um um Lee with two other members of um MTH with me for peace looking very summmer and obviously very
03:00:52 looking very summmer and obviously very very hot cuz they're fairly stripped off and playing cards with um Peace camp in the background with a banner and um
03:00:54 um yes yeah looks fairly laid back hn33 says in her witness statement that her managers might have been concerned if
03:01:13 managers might have been concerned if she'd gone on holiday with people in her group you've said that you didn't take any part in protest on this occasion would you say this was primarily a holiday or primarily a protest um it was certainly to join the protest there much as we might go to
03:01:27 protest there much as we might go to green and common for a day but um I have to be honest you know that we were all very much um londoners and it was the summer holidays and there was a couple of vehicles going so it may have had also a little bit of a tinge of a holiday but we were going to join the
03:01:46 holiday but we were going to join the protest which was joining the peace Camp there we can take that photograph down now thank you different topic Hillary I'd like now to look at the UTC Otis lifts actions that
03:02:03 look at the UTC Otis lifts actions that lwp um organized and this I think was a picket outside Otis lifts headquarters near oval Tube Station which was a subsidiary of a company that had investments in arms that's why the protest took place there and I think they were also
03:02:16 there and I think they were also sponsoring an exhibition at the tap Gallery which you Pro pick in conjunction with CND is that right I remember the picket I couldn't say whether it was in conjunction with CND D
03:02:28 whether it was in conjunction with CND D but may well have been were you involved in this
03:02:29 in this picket uh I believe I did go to the picket what did you do at the picket uh was there disruption to members of the
03:02:41 was there disruption to members of the public what took place did you I don't remember any know I seem to remember leaflets and probably some banners I can't be certain but we were on the steps of the old tape what's now tape
03:02:56 steps of the old tape what's now tape Britain and outside Otis lifts near oval Tube Station did you take part in that picket as well yes yes there there were several of those we used to try and make them during the rush hour because it was on a very prominent Road um going
03:03:12 on a very prominent Road um going through London um so we would hold up posters and we would leaflet the employees going in and passes by going to the tube so we did it before work in the morning CU most of us were working
03:03:23 the morning CU most of us were working so um yeah and in the evening um we had a bit of a rotor for that I think can we look please at ucpi 3
03:03:37 look please at ucpi 3 6941 it's A8 uh sorry a13 in Hillary Mo's bundle ucpi
03:03:50 3694 now these are some of the that we've heard you talk about that are handwritten but um to protect the privacy of the author they've been typed over and these are so these are minutes that you've produced fourth of September
03:04:04 produced fourth of September meeting and if we look on page two halfway down we can see the heading
03:04:20 UTC discussion about tactics whether dramatic action should should start campaign or come into middle of it banners instead of paint contact illegible Union of musicians who have office opposite and then it gives the date spread message by Word of Mouth plus use coaches to
03:04:42 plus use coaches to greenham do you remember a time when lwp were considering using paint in the UTC picket no I don't no I'm mystified by
03:04:53 picket no I don't no I'm mystified by that because it says plus use coaches to greenham but it is about that oh yeah did you does it potentially mean advertising it on coaches to greenham oh maybe yes yeah it could well mean that no I don't remember
03:05:06 no I don't remember no um was paint ever used in these protests sorry pickets can we look at ucpi 14838 B15 sir ucpi 14838
03:05:28 can we just look at paragraph two quickly this is a Lambeth women for peace weekly meeting on the 16th of October 16 women were present paragraph 5
03:05:51 please the pickets of UTC both at clap and Road SW9 and outside the tap Gallery were thought to have been successful although numbers attending were low privacy the instigator of the actions against UTC maintained that support will grow as the demonstrations continue and more people are made aware of the
03:06:02 more people are made aware of the situation so it seems by the 16th of October the date of this meeting the pickets had
03:06:14 pickets had started numbers are said to be low can you remember how many people attended the
03:06:19 the pickets my m is it was only a handful of us at each um time that I attended I would have said possibly half a dozen I
03:06:30 would have said possibly half a dozen I don't think it was more than that but I really can't be certain how many times did the pickets take place I'm really not certain about that I think possibly more at the um Otis um head uh I think that's the
03:06:43 Otis um head uh I think that's the reference to claen road is the Otis
03:06:51 headquarters so so that's rather than the Tate it's talking about clap road yeah um and I remember myself going quite a few times to clap Road I can't really say more than that did Lee bonser
03:07:07 really say more than that did Lee bonser attend any of these pickets I don't know she may have done but I have no memory of that and do you know of any effect of these
03:07:17 these pickets uh I believe that it made lambus Council look at their Investments um so
03:07:28 Council look at their Investments um so that was a win and hopefully um you know it had an impact on some passes by who took Leets and maybe the people who worked
03:07:29 worked there was this typical of the kind of thing that Lambeth women for peace would do yes it was one of the kind of actions we'd do in a more educational way
03:07:41 we'd do in a more educational way yeah we can take that document down thank you can we look at a different action a greenham action that you attended and Lee bonser attended I think it was known as the 10 million women
03:07:55 it was known as the 10 million women action 20th to the 30th of September 1984 does that ring a bell for you look at the list I've got 20th to the 30th September
03:08:15 um 1984 I didn't go to greener in September I'm not sure I think have you got your witness oh 18th to the 17th sorry what date did you give well I think the action lasted for the from the 20th to the 30th of
03:08:36 the from the 20th to the 30th of September 1984 but I don't know how much of that you attended yeah no I've no no diary mentioned that I was going to greenh and I went on the 17th of November and Lee gave me a lift um do you have your witness statement in front of you Hillary uh yes
03:08:51 of you Hillary uh yes I think the reference is paragraph 235
03:08:59 2 I'm asked whether myself or other members of lwp took part in it if you turn back to two paragraph 232 yes it did it was well reported
03:09:15 on it may help perhaps if I show you some of hn 33's reporting on it and then you can yeah yeah
03:09:24 let's turn to ucpi 20218 B13 sir
03:09:45 20218 this is a Lambeth women for peace meeting on the 11th of September 198 4 in fact this is the meeting where 21 women attended which you thought sounded quite high for lamth women for peace can we turn to paragraph four
03:10:05 please two people who we've redacted for privacy um I'm sorry that's in fact about a different topic second sentence privacy reported that response from women wishing to travel on the coaches to green and was poor she presented a
03:10:17 to green and was poor she presented a letter from a woman in Brighton privacy suggesting that an allout effort be made on 30th of September to take down the perimeter fence at greenham a copy of the letter is
03:10:33 the letter is attached can we first before we look at that turn to page four of this
03:10:50 document I think this is a Lambeth Diary of events are you able to help with who would have produced this was this a what's the badge in the bottom um nuclear free local authorities would it have been
03:10:56 have been lamber
03:11:00 lamber Council if we look at the bottom left hand corner of that Diary of events 10 million women action September 20th to 30th women together working for
03:11:12 20th to 30th women together working for peace have the power to change the world take these 10 days for yourself tell other women come to greenham for as much or as little as you want take action wherever you are talk about the world you want and how we are going to and then it says make it
03:11:29 to and then it says make it happen that's advertising the event you think in a council document or a lambath Authority
03:11:45 document and that's 1984 it is is this ringing any bells for you um well the the references to to the fence I
03:12:00 the references to to the fence I associate with a different date um but I know the 10 million women was an action can we turn to the letter that I think you're referring to page nine of that document this is the letter that in the report says had been received from a woman in Brighton
03:12:20 we see it's from an address in Sussex 10 days September 20th to 30th another handwritten letter that we've typed
03:12:35 over dear women we are women from Sussex and we'll spend some time of the 10 days doing things in our local towns and Villages but we feel strongly very strongly about a combined action at greenham which would take place on
03:12:46 greenham which would take place on Sunday the 30th something that is almost certain to get good media coverage we feel it would be possible to get thousands of women at greenham to encircle the base and at 1500 hours
03:12:58 encircle the base and at 1500 hours start taking the fence down the fence is so weak and damaged you would just need to put your weight on it and the thing would collapse remember when we encircled the base on the 12th of December there were about 40,000 women we could elgible double that and then the second
03:13:10 the second paragraph and the the last section of that says if this action is to succeed it will only do so if we work together together in our thousands then the fence will pose no threat so if you're
03:13:24 will pose no threat so if you're interested please let me know or just turn up on Sunday the 30th do do you have any memory of this event Hillary um I have a memory of um the fence coming down that I associate being in
03:13:41 down that I associate being in Halloween um and I thought it was the previous year this again is where Rebecca Johnson would just it would trip off Ed of her tongue um I'm a bit confused by the dates I must confess I
03:13:52 confused by the dates I must confess I can see what I've written does it help you to look at paragraphs 232 that's the document we just looked at onwards that's the letter yeah must to
03:14:06 onwards that's the letter yeah must to consider and then at paragraph 235 what I've written after that yes 235 I'm asked whether myself or other members of lwp took part in it yes we did as
03:14:19 lwp took part in it yes we did as mentioned previously Lee was present do you want to just read that to yourself for a
03:14:20 for a moment my own read what I've read have you got your witness statement there I have yes and I've just glanced through it and
03:14:36 um I'm a bit confused by the dates even though I've written that I must be honest um because I don't have a record in front of me Diary wise that I was there at that time but I remember certainly something like that um I've
03:14:50 certainly something like that um I've just got I don't want to say the wrong thing I'd much rather this question was put to Jane or Rebecca um about if you
03:15:03 put to Jane or Rebecca um about if you can't help us that's that's absolutely fine can I just confusing okay can I just ask this is this typical
03:15:14 just ask this is this typical of the um way that events were planned in that Lambeth women for peace has received a letter from someone in Brighton proposing something does that seem like the way events like this were planned in your mind um something that sounds as big as
03:15:25 mind um something that sounds as big as what you're describing I think we would have expected it to have been something that came more directly from Green and itself though groups did propose things
03:15:38 itself though groups did propose things but I think we'd have wanted to be sure that it was going to be something that was well supported if we seem to have been hiring a coach by the sound of it so we must have been fairly sure there'd be
03:15:45 be numbers um who else would have received this letter do can you help us with that from from the women in Brighton I have no idea I guess it would been sent to
03:15:59 no idea I guess it would been sent to other known peace groups in the country or around proximity of greenham I I really don't know did Lambeth women for
03:16:12 really don't know did Lambeth women for peace um always have advanced knowledge of events like this happening at greenham
03:16:14 greenham um uh what big mass action sort of do you mean and um did we
03:16:27 sort of do you mean and um did we always I wouldn't like to say we did we certainly had knowledge of some of the big events and we're able to organize quite publicly to get coaches to take local women there you know it was no secret really um most events were well
03:16:38 secret really um most events were well publicized with leaflets going around um
03:16:50 can we turn to a different event now please September 1985 and I think that was a time when you were arrested at greenham for
03:17:01 you were arrested at greenham for trespass and then you attended Court in Newbury in September 1985 can we look at ucpi 22532 B21
03:17:22 this is the lambath women for peace meeting on the 10th of September 12 women are present and can we just zoom in on paragraph four
03:17:37 please those women who were arrested at greenham common on the 8th of September have decided to spend the night before their court hearing on 23rd of September at the peace Camp they will contact any other women who are appearing on the
03:17:48 other women who are appearing on the same day so that they can all attend the court together it was generally felt that the action had been a success and I think in your witness statement you explained that you and several Lambeth
03:18:00 explained that you and several Lambeth women for peace women had gone onto the base and been arrested
03:18:04 arrested yes we have to my knowledge not found any hn33 reporting in advance of that event was it can you help us with
03:18:18 event was it can you help us with whether it was planned or spontaneous my memory which you know may not be right but I I believe it was fairly spontaneous um my memory is I don't remember that we actually cut the fence
03:18:31 remember that we actually cut the fence there was a small group of us I think it was spontaneous and um I've got a feeling that we found a gap in the fence but I can't be absolutely sure about that it was certainly spontaneous is my
03:18:47 that it was certainly spontaneous is my memory we you say your witness statement that you clearly remember Lee bonser came to court with you on that occasion to support you she probably drove you there and back would she ever party to
03:18:59 there and back would she ever party to discussions about how you would conduct that court case I I really couldn't comment on that not on a personal basis but there may have been talk as a group that she was
03:19:14 have been talk as a group that she was party to but I can't be sure before we move off this document can we look at the second half of paragraph four they also heard that a woman calling herself Paula Yates had been strip searched by three women police officers in the presence of two male officers
03:19:28 in the presence of two male officers they being Lambeth women for peace were elated and also relieved that they had not been subjected to the same treatment the above search happened on 30th of August and the women there and then had drafted a letter to send their
03:19:44 drafted a letter to send their MPS is this an accurate depiction of lwps response to striar absolutely appalling they were related I mean the description there of what happened to that woman um and the
03:19:59 what happened to that woman um and the idea that we would be elated I mean it's absolutely awful what happened to that woman more than it actually spells out
03:20:13 woman more than it actually spells out there um she was seriously assaulted is my memory um and that it would just be put in that sort of way that we were elated and relieved I mean we were horrified hence drafting a letter to MPS and I seem to have a a memory that we took a letter down to brickton police
03:20:34 took a letter down to brickton police station at ETA um as well I think I saw something in minutes that referred to that um it's just awful it's another example of the kind of sexist minog misogyny of the SDS is awful whether
03:20:50 misogyny of the SDS is awful whether that's actually hn 33's wording or it's some Superior or somebody who's typing um what she'd conveyed um don't agree with it at all can we quick briefly look at paragraphs six and seven of that intelligence report
03:21:01 report please the women then discussed the type of display for the stall at the women in Lambeth day on 14th of September 1985 at St Matthew's meeting place Brixton any
03:21:14 St Matthew's meeting place Brixton any funds raised at this event would be sent to the March 8th School Tig Ethiopia organizing for the Disco on the 21st of September seems to be going slowly ahead apparently they have not
03:21:29 slowly ahead apparently they have not booked a disc jockey and there is a lack of Records however it seems as though these matters will be eventually resolved are these typical Lambeth women for peace events yes they are but isn't
03:21:40 for peace events yes they are but isn't it absolutely ludicrous that somebody is been paid taxpayers money to report on our lack of a dis jockey and records for a fun raising
03:21:51 a fun raising disco oh dear was there any public order relevance to the Disco no I don't think so on the topic of Legal Professional
03:22:02 so on the topic of Legal Professional privilege before we move on you you've mentioned defendants meetings and you gave two specific examples going back in time to 1983 now after your arrest at Parliament
03:22:16 Parliament Square what were defendants meetings can you help us with
03:22:27 you help us with that oh um I do have a memory that there was um defendants meeting that involved a lot of people there were a lot of arrests that night it was a real cross-section of people I think it was the night of the cruise debate in Parliament before the cruise missiles came in and um it was a real
03:22:43 came in and um it was a real cross-section of people and so I think there must have been a a meeting probably took us through the legal processes a bit I can't be sure what happened at it but I do remember there was a defendants
03:22:54 was a defendants meeting
03:23:00 meeting um uh yeah I mean I remember that night I had to spend a long time which was quite a scary first for me in a police cell in London and there were other members of Lamberth women for peace who did and it was a real cross-section I
03:23:12 did and it was a real cross-section I remember there was a male Vicor in the same holding cell as myself um so this was quite a large event I think this meeting for people who'd been
03:23:23 meeting for people who'd been arrested at the defendants meetings would there have been legal advice given and
03:23:36 and shared I imagine there would have been yeah and do you remember whether Lee bonsa attended any of those meetings no I don't I think it would have been slightly strange if she did because she wasn't arrested I think it was only many meant to be of interest
03:23:49 was only many meant to be of interest and relevance to the people who've been arrested that
03:23:59 night the final event that I would like to address perhaps I can ask you this first do you remember the event I think it was known as widening the web in December 1985 14th 15th of
03:24:16 December um I can't say specifically remember it but I can see that I've got 14th 15th of December green and question mark it was obviously in my diary that's what I've recorded
03:24:28 what I've recorded here perhaps if I turn first of all to um a report about the event it might jog your memory if you can't remember it then I'll move on ucpi
03:24:45 22561 b26 this is unusually we have a report from hn 33 after this
03:25:00 event submitted here with a leaflets handed out at the demonstration at greenham common on 14th 15th of December the following women were identified as having Taken part and it does list you
03:25:17 does list you there the leaflet that hn33 attaches as having been handed out perhaps if we turn to page
03:25:23 12
03:25:30 does does this jog your memory at all as to whether you can help us with that event I can't specifically remember the event but um it does seem like I was
03:25:43 event but um it does seem like I was there doesn't it okay well if you don't have a memory of it then I'll move on
03:25:55 fact so it is 1:00 um I
03:25:58 1:00 um I have a little more to cover but not a huge amount um I don't know whether the
03:26:11 huge amount um I don't know whether the transcriber would have a view on whether we stop now or continue I think I would be able to finish by half past one um I think I think we have to consider everybody in the room and um it it may be that those who like to have
03:26:22 it may be that those who like to have lunch at one um rather than half past would prefer to have it now and if if uh
03:26:35 would prefer to have it now and if if uh I let me ask for a vote on this um could anyone who want could could those who are willing to um uh continue until halfast one and then have a break raise their
03:26:51 hands I would say minority um I I think we we would would those who would prefer to rise now raise their hands no we we've actually got a majority in favor of carrying on so let's let's do that
03:27:04 let's let's do that content yes I think the transcribers confirmed that she's to
03:27:14 continue can we look at when Lee bonser left lamb both women for peace you remember holding a party for her in October
03:27:25 October 1986 can you tell us where that party would have been uh yeah I wouldn't quite call it a party but there was certainly a social Gathering that I believe was at my home
03:27:43 Gathering that I believe was at my home um and which uh um I shared with another member of Lambo women peace is sadly passed away but I can see her nam's there so I'm allowed to say it but with an Chambers who was the only other person who'd known Lee for the duration of her infiltration other people had
03:27:54 of her infiltration other people had left the group you know who had been there at the beginning um so it was held
03:28:05 there at the beginning um so it was held at our home and we had a whip round I do remember for a piece of silver jewelry um uh so yes it was sort of a little occasion to wish her well on going to Australia as we you know had been told
03:28:18 Australia as we you know had been told was happening and I think you remember remember particularly her reaction to the gift that you'd purchased I do actually fly enough yes it's so long ago but it's struck me at the time how
03:28:30 but it's struck me at the time how embarrassed she was it was a rather untypical thing um I wouldn't have expected her to be embarrassed or surprised you know she was leaving it wasn't surprising she been with the group for nearly four years but she was very embarrassed it was very
03:28:44 very embarrassed it was very untypical did you hear from Lee bonso after she'd left no no she said something about sending forwarded address but you know we never heard anything H 33 says that by the end of
03:28:56 anything H 33 says that by the end of her deployment into Lambeth women for peace and greenham common in the summer to late
03:29:01 to late 1986 the focus of the peace movement itself had changed as I recall and was less focused on greenham common the women in Lambeth women for peace were slowing down their activities and some
03:29:17 slowing down their activities and some started drifting away is that accurate to your
03:29:23 to your mind um some started drifting away it sounds rather negative I think we've made a decision um and things had changed you know greenham had changed um and our Focus had changed yeah so it interested some women more than others
03:29:38 interested some women more than others as I say original core members had moved from the area or that were lots of reasons you know we were quite young and life was rather fluid in those days you You' said Lambeth women for peace the focus had
03:29:53 the focus had changed is that the focus more towards International matters anti apartheid matters we were still I mean we were still very much there with um greenham but um we did heck of a lot of
03:30:09 but um we did heck of a lot of fundraising for this school in t which um we've become involved with and in fact I think in um 1985 meetings became sort of bi-weekly
03:30:20 1985 meetings became sort of bi-weekly and one week it would be a Lambeth women for peace meeting and the next meeting next week it would be about our support for the plight in Te and um we did an awful lot around that and raised a lot of money sent a lot of
03:30:32 of money sent a lot of goods you said a moment ago that greenham had changed in what way had greenham
03:30:42 greenham changed well the the treaty had been signed between um the America
03:30:53 signed between um the America and um Russia gach was President um there wasn't that terrible nuclear threat hanging over us all you know um in the same way I think it felt we could do a slight sigh of relief
03:31:07 we could do a slight sigh of relief there were still lots of Peace issues to campaign about and we did still get involved in things in different peace actions but we did have an international perspect perspective as well we've heard in the summary of
03:31:21 well we've heard in the summary of Rebecca Johnson's evidence that the peace Camp remained at GRE greenham common until 1991 and I think in fact there was still some women camping there after that date as well um was there C
03:31:35 after that date as well um was there C can you help us with whether there was any change in the nature of nvda that was taking place from Summer to late 86 onwards no I can't really I think that's something that Rebecca might cover in
03:31:49 something that Rebecca might cover in her statement and would have been better able to have answer can we look at a part of hn 33's witness statement MPS 0745
03:32:00 0745 970 MPS 0745
03:32:12 970 it's A2 of the hn33 bundle sir page 17 please
03:32:19 paragraph
03:32:27 58 Lambeth women for peace were not looking to overthrow the government and so were not subversive they were against the nuclear bombs and probably would have preferred a labor government I had some sympathy for their cause but they
03:32:42 some sympathy for their cause but they also represented a challenge to public order in their numbers and ability to cause disruption
03:32:51 we've explored some Lambeth women for peace events that you put on the clap and common peace Camp the the international women's day for disarmament Cruise watch UTC action um do you agree that there were
03:33:08 um do you agree that there were sufficient numbers at lwp events to cause a
03:33:14 cause a disruption no certainly don't no no I don't agree with that
03:33:24 statement what would you say in in summary was the impact of Lamberth women for peace events on members of the public hopefully it informed people about what was going on
03:33:37 about what was going on um highlighted the whole thing about the nuclear threat um I think um all of us felt proud to be part of Lambo for peace we felt that we spread that message across Lamberth and
03:33:57 spread that message across Lamberth and um had some quite amazing events as well um as well as giving our support at GRE
03:34:06 um Hillary I think you found out that you had been the subject of undercover policing via Jane Hickman and then you discovered the identity of the undercover officer via the guardian in
03:34:19 undercover officer via the guardian in 2021 what impact did it have on you when you found out this
03:34:26 information I mean it's unbelievable really I couldn't believe it but I suppose she would have been the number one suspect if we'd had to name anybody
03:34:42 one suspect if we'd had to name anybody as a group um but yes I I was shocked by it and then as I got more documents disclosed particularly hn33
03:34:47 hn33 statement um it made me feel very angry really about the issue lots of issues you know the way that she was recruited specifically on the orders of Margaret Thatcher it seems that who wanted to
03:35:00 Thatcher it seems that who wanted to know what was going on with the green and women the whole way that um the identities of dead children were used for by undercover officers it was chilling to read that um in her
03:35:15 chilling to read that um in her statement and we were totally and fairly t
03:35:20 t Ted totally unfairly um a total waste of taxpayers
03:35:27 taxpayers money and there's the big big question of where did this information go from lambers women for peace which I know Rebecca's covered a great extent you know and from greenham you know this direct link it seems from different
03:35:39 direct link it seems from different documents that there was obviously with special Branch MI5 informing the government year that lead infiltrated our group there was a general election
03:35:51 our group there was a general election around that time with a labor party who were in favor of unilateral nuclear disarmament um and satcha was very keen to paint a particular picture it seems about greenham at that time and there's
03:36:08 about greenham at that time and there's lots of questions there about where did the information go it feels like the media were misinformed a lot that I think um there's some sort of reference made to taking the mar um thing away
03:36:26 made to taking the mar um thing away from greenham women wanting to discredit them and it feels really awful that we might have been a little chip in that well perhaps more than a little chip with lamber woming for peace we were totally unfairly targeted um acquiring a special branch number when no other group it seems in
03:36:41 number when no other group it seems in one of the reports you know in London no other peace group had a special branch number let alone as as individuals um just a total waste of money um and a real
03:36:55 money um and a real infringement of our our right to protest and um all the sort of infringements into our personal lives those details that were
03:37:05 that were recorded in terms of the um targeting of Lambeth women for peace hn33 says she was looking in the newspaper for a group with um women for peace in the name she didn't deliberately choose a Lambeth
03:37:18 didn't deliberately choose a Lambeth group how does it feel that the group you founded and were part of Lambeth women for peace rather than a different peace group was infiltrated because it caught Lee Bona's
03:37:29 caught Lee Bona's attention oh shocking but I I she shouldn't have been in any peace group whether it was us or one of the other peace groups and perhaps we were unlucky that it was us um I mean you read out
03:37:42 that it was us um I mean you read out one of her statements and I was struck by a couple of others in her statement and it seems like she herself is saying
03:37:54 and it seems like she herself is saying what a waste of time it was you read out the one that says we weren't subersive and she also said about lwp their activities were always peaceful I do not remember a demonstration where there was disruption I do not recall any public
03:38:05 disruption I do not recall any public disorder while I was employed and then the biggie I do not think my reporting contributed much to policing you know that's after four years um and that's her summation of
03:38:18 years um and that's her summation of it what's the impact on you personally now it's been a heck of a ride the last
03:38:29 now it's been a heck of a ride the last few months you know um getting to grips with this and I think realizing the level as I say of the depth that things uh that her infiltration um informed you know I've
03:38:44 infiltration um informed you know I've done a lot of reading and uh the whole link to government government policy uh statements that were made in the House of Commons and what was going on behind the scenes it just feels like
03:38:59 on behind the scenes it just feels like the SDS were acting politically um a lot of the time it wasn't about pleasing it was about politics and that's a horrible feeling and awful that we've been left with records um and you know lots of the
03:39:17 with records um and you know lots of the other women have too some of us not even knowing why we originally got them anyway which predates greenham um yeah Hillary those are all the questions I have for you so it seems I was a little pessimistic yes were could I
03:39:32 little pessimistic yes were could I propose without wanting to encroach on anyone's lunch break any further that the rule 10 process happens over this break that seems to me to be very sensible and it may mean we have a slightly earlier day than some had
03:39:43 slightly earlier day than some had feared we have Jane Hickman giving everything this afternoon um could you
03:39:54 everything this afternoon um could you come back in an hour's time uh there may be more questions which are asked under what is called our rule 10 process um and um if you would be back to answer them I'd be grateful yes that's fine thank you we'll um rise until quarter
03:40:14 2 e