HN65 provides extensive evidence about his infiltration of CND from 1981-1985, focusing on reporting from CND National Council, Greenham Common, and NVDA (non-violent direct action) planning. Key admissions include acknowledging that CND was not subversive but had 'subversive influences', that no single political body controlled CND, and that some reporting was 'excessive' or 'an embarrassment'. Testimony reveals Security Service described his reporting as 'particularly useful' despite HN65 never receiving feedback.
00:27:27 e e
00:28:32 what thank you sir oh I'm so sorry before you start I must say what I usually have to say at this time beginning of every session forgive me for those forgive those of you who've heard all this before
00:28:43 before um those of you who got electronic devices may use them to transmit silently what is taking place in this hearing room but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event you're describing the reason is so that it
00:28:57 describing the reason is so that it coincides with the uh live link that is being uh put out to broadcast our proceedings which is subject to a
00:29:10 proceedings which is subject to a 10-minute delay you may not choose those devices for recording what takes place in here or taking photographs Mr B thank you sir um h65 before lunch we were talking about your reporting from the London region um I'd like to move now to National level
00:29:26 I'd like to move now to National level it's right isn't it that you reported on the Affairs of the CN the National
00:29:37 the Affairs of the CN the National Council yes could we uh start with um c33 sir in volume 2
00:29:56 15610 um this is a report dated the 23rd of September 19 81 uh it reads the UN at paragraph two the undermentioned members of the Socialist Workers Party have been
00:30:07 Socialist Workers Party have been nominated for the campaign for nuclear disarmament National Council which takes place on the 13th 14th and 15th of November
00:30:18 November 1981 and then subject to some privacy redactions they are listed uh we'll be coming
00:30:26 coming to uh the influence of farle groups within CND in due course in more detail
00:30:41 within CND in due course in more detail but is this an example of you reporting on the influence of a major trotskyist party within CND yes could we take that down please and could we go to um c170 sir in file 3695
00:31:12 58 I'm going to be interested in paragraphs 2 to8
00:31:26 please this is a report dated the 4th of February at
00:31:34 1983 um paragraphs if we have could we have perhaps two and three to start
00:31:47 with um at the meeting of the campaign for nuclear disarmament National Council held during the weekend of the 15th to the 16th of January 1983 the following decisions were taken before we go on to the decisions can you recall were you present at that uh meeting
00:31:59 meeting I really don't recall I I don't recall being I wasn't a member of the National Council
00:32:06 Council and I don't recall doing it I whether I've received that from somebody else that information I don't know did you sometimes attend as a delegate to National
00:32:19 National Council no no not as far as I know to National Committee no um over the weekend three days of action will be held on the theme stop Trident refuse cruise on Thursday the
00:32:32 Trident refuse cruise on Thursday the 31st of March 1983 from 6:00 a.m. to 600 P p.m. women will blockade all the gates leading into greenham common Air Base the action will be coordinated by CND
00:32:46 the action will be coordinated by CND and the greenham common women's peace Camp so you're reporting their U
00:32:58 Camp so you're reporting their U proposed direct action to Blade greenham common yes uh s sanctions from essentially the top of
00:33:04 CND I don't know whether it was sanctioned from the top of CND I don't think it would need to been sanctioned because if the green and common women wanted to do it they'd have done it anyway it wasn't a question of whether they got their permission or not I see
00:33:18 they got their permission or not I see so when you said at the when when it was written at the top of just immediately above decisions were taken is a reality in fact yeah that those decisions had been taken I would assume
00:33:34 been taken I would assume yeah and then if we go to paragraph four please on the same date and times there will be a mixed bade of the three gates at burfield Royal ordinance Factory burfield which will be coordinated by CND and the burfield campaign
00:33:48 CND and the burfield campaign participants are expected to have previously undertaken a course in nvda and are asked to arrive on the evening prior to the blockade for
00:34:03 evening prior to the blockade for registration and briefing the intention is to ensure that both bades are entirely
00:34:12 entirely nonviolent again essentially my question is to what extent has the National Council been involved in the decision to commit nvda that I don't know uh if we go to
00:34:26 know uh if we go to five on the following day Friday the 1st of April 19 83 a human chain will be formed along the entire 14 mile route joining greenham common Alder Mar and
00:34:38 joining greenham common Alder Mar and burfield it is anticipated that 40,000 people will be needed to effect this action when the chain is complete at around 100 p.m. Balloons with messages
00:34:54 around 100 p.m. Balloons with messages will be released following this action a festival will be held at Alder Maron um if we go to paragraph six please aers sorry the third day of action will be in Glasgow on Saturday the 2nd of April
00:35:06 Glasgow on Saturday the 2nd of April 1983 participants will assemble at 11:00 a.m. in George Square Glasgow where a m die in will be staged a March will then take the demonstrators to Kelvin Grove Park for a carnival in addition it is
00:35:18 Park for a carnival in addition it is hoped that over the weekend there will be a limited action at Fane peace Camp campaigners from the north of England and Scotland are asked to support the action in Glasgow and the remainder are
00:35:32 action in Glasgow and the remainder are asked to support the greenham almast and burfield events despite the division of resources it is anticipated that upwards of a 100,000 will attend each
00:35:43 of a 100,000 will attend each event so it appears from this report that by gaining access however you did it to the National Council you are
00:35:58 it to the National Council you are getting high quality intelligence about exactly what is being planned by
00:36:13 CND yes I I yeah yeah and that includes some entirely lawful protests and some direct action some direct action yes but as far as policing is concerned all of those events are worthy of being aware of in advance I'm not saying they
00:36:28 aware of in advance I'm not saying they wouldn't have been told in by any other means but that's why I haven't just restricted it to
00:36:39 nvda and did you get any feedback for reporting from this level within CND yeah
00:36:44 yeah um it goes It goes on to set out future actions but I don't think we need to turn those up could we go please now to tab 1885 sir uh that's 18839
00:37:17 um can we this is this is a long document so could we start just on the first page so that you can see uh 65 exactly uh what this is um this is a report dated the 17th of
00:37:38 um this is a report dated the 17th of March 1983 three and it's about um Peace camps now if we could go next please to um page
00:37:52 six and if we look at the second half about greenham common this is a section of this long report about peace camps about greenham common March and April 19 1983 Snakes and Ladders nvda groups are invited to attend and camp anywhere
00:38:07 invited to attend and camp anywhere around the 9M perimeter and take part in actions involving entering the base either over by ladder or under the fence chain letters have been sent to all contacts 31st of March to the 1st of
00:38:24 contacts 31st of March to the 1st of April 32 hours blockade of the base from 6:00 a.m. on the 31st of March to 2: p.m. on the 1st of April National CND event Late July to August the 6 star
00:38:39 event Late July to August the 6 star marches a series of small marches from all over the country converging on greenham comma common on Hiroshima day organized by women for life on Earth International women's day for
00:38:50 International women's day for disarmament a decentralized day of action called by greenham Common women so I've drawn you to that example um
00:39:09 to show the sort of intelligence you were providing about forthcoming actions some of which uh were of a nvda uh ilk and others which were not yes any reaction to that
00:39:26 yes any reaction to that intelligence um there's no feedback from it no
00:39:29 it no and um if we could go back to the body of this report I'd like to look at page four paragraphs 15- 17
00:39:50 please the emergence of nvda has also presented a structured hierarchy of CND with certain problems which are regarded as a double edged sword on the one hand it is proving to be the most effective
00:40:08 it is proving to be the most effective tool in the campaign but on the other it is taking decision making out of the hands of the National Council Furthermore with several peace campers on the National Council CND Now find that they are expected to support and
00:40:22 that they are expected to support and advertise events with which they are not fully in
00:40:25 fully in accord could you help explain
00:40:35 that the way I understood it was that CND found themselves in a dilemma that they sympathized and
00:40:46 dilemma that they sympathized and supported the green and common women's actions
00:40:48 actions however they needed to continue to attract wider support from people who didn't think it should be going as far as it was and therefore they were left with
00:41:02 was and therefore they were left with this with this dilemma of how far they should go in support of green and women I think I noticed it all the way through it was it was greenham common was a mixed blessing it brought forward it
00:41:15 mixed blessing it brought forward it gave them a lot of publicity it did a lot for their argument and everything but it also sort of boxed them into a corner that they were they could have
00:41:29 corner that they were they could have been perceived as a as a an organization that was wedded to nonviolent direct action just for its sake and I don't think they wanted that because there was there was a political context that
00:41:40 there was a political context that needed to be dealt with as well that I mean that's my interpretation of it I'm not saying I'm right but that's how I that's how I interpretated what I saw right we come back to your
00:41:52 right we come back to your interpretation again in a little moment next paragraph in an attempt to influence nvda National CN D has organized Regional trainers who hold
00:42:03 organized Regional trainers who hold regular weekend instruction sessions this however has only serve to exacerbate the problems the trainers are drawn mainly from feminist and Narco pacifist groups and the principles they
00:42:14 pacifist groups and the principles they in part at their sessions only serve to take more control away from National CND and put it in the hands of the activists
00:42:26 and put it in the hands of the activists of particular influence in this field is the peace news Collective it's right isn't it that the peace news Collective I think Albert Beal gave some training didn't he that you reported believe so
00:42:48 didn't he that you reported believe so yeah but this is this an illustration of the very tension you've just described yes 17 in conclusion it can be stated that nvda is without doubt the most influential Force within the peace movement at the present time working within a well organized Federation of
00:42:59 within a well organized Federation of groups nvd a is able to offer activists an outlet for their frustrations whilst avoiding the Trap Of centralizing The Campaign and offering the
00:43:08 the authorities a Target again that's your interpretation that sort of better encapsulate what I
00:43:19 that sort of better encapsulate what I was trying to say earlier on and by this stage you have been deployed for almost
00:43:30 stage you have been deployed for almost 2 years would it be fair to say you had a very good understanding of how CND ticked I hope I did you have very very fairly pointed out in your witness statement that a lot of the reporting that you put in
00:43:51 of the reporting that you put in about organizing for events would have been openly available anywhere yes you've suggested that it was your understanding of the D Dynamics within the organization my
00:44:04 Dynamics within the organization my words not yours um that was the value you thought you were adding is that right yes and is this an example of the sort of analysis yes that you think could not have been obtained
00:44:16 could not have been obtained otherwise from my perspective
00:44:28 yes um could we um now go please to tab
00:44:35 tab 234 in file 4 please um I'll get you a reference in just a
00:44:43 moment it's 19584
00:45:07 now this is a report dated the 11th of October
00:45:13 October 1983 and if we look please at paragraphs 2 and
00:45:25 three Joan Ruck chairperson of the campaign for nuclear disarmament has written to the secretaries of all CND groups in the United Kingdom in an attempt to ascertain the grassroot preference for the type of
00:45:39 grassroot preference for the type of nonviolent direct action for December 1983 the anniversary of the decision to site cruise missiles in this country and the most likely month for their
00:45:55 the most likely month for their installation in the letter she outlines the following options one a day of action in London with national support for either a two-hour
00:46:07 national support for either a two-hour sitdown in White Hall each region being allocated a different staging area to minimize police preventative action or simultaneous actions throughout London at strategic sites for example the
00:46:21 at strategic sites for example the ministry of Defense House of Commons Inland Revenue Fleet Street BBC and the bank of England a series of regional
00:46:32 bank of England a series of regional actions either of the above options is intended to complement a women's day of action at greenham common probably on the 11th of December
00:46:50 the 11th of December 1983 CND group secretaries have been asked to forward the views of their members to the National Council Representatives before the weekend of the 15th to the 16th of October 1983
00:47:02 the 15th to the 16th of October 1983 when a firm decision will be made at the national
00:47:04 national council meeting um the reason for
00:47:18 council meeting um the reason for choosing this report to put to you hn 65 is to ask you whether by this stage in 1983 it is representative of how embedded nvda was
00:47:27 nvda was in
00:47:29 in CND to the point where the chair is canvasing members about the precise type of mvda how representative was
00:47:40 of mvda how representative was that I think it's a fair reflection of the stage it had reached CND had reached in its
00:47:54 in its relationship with greenham common women and The Wider nbda um desire for nbda and if we um follow it through by going to tab 241
00:48:23 19688 I'm interested in paragraphs two it be 2 to five this is the 8th of November 1983 the executive committee of the campaign for nuclear disarmament met on Saturday the 5th of November 1983 to
00:48:40 Saturday the 5th of November 1983 to plan a new form of protest for December 1983 an earlier plan to demonstrate outside Parliament during a debate on cre missiles had been preempted by the government's decision to bring forward the debate it was agreed that the venue
00:48:51 the debate it was agreed that the venue for the protest should be switched from
00:49:02 for the protest should be switched from London to greenham Common and we then um see I won't read it all out plans for what's called Operation Christmas present March um at uh two greenham common and if we pick it up at the
00:49:14 common and if we pick it up at the bottom of paragraph three running into paragraph
00:49:15 paragraph [Music]
00:49:24 four um can I have the the bottom of three please as well as four the last four or five lines please thank you CND are suggesting that these presents take the form of food wire
00:49:41 presents take the form of food wire cutters similar tools and ladders it has even been suggested that the Christmas that Christmas trees might help the women to scale the fence the above style of demonstration has been chosen to indicate the form of future protests envisaged by CND as a counter to the
00:49:53 envisaged by CND as a counter to the practice deployment of cruise missiles from and common additionally it is hoped
00:50:04 from and common additionally it is hoped that the blade will make the police task of removing women arrested at the perimeter fence that much more difficult and then over the page
00:50:15 page um thank you picking up about halfway through the final paragraph cndd claim that the event has been organized in response to a Grassroots demand for some form of M particip participation at
00:50:31 form of M particip participation at greenham common and has been planned to allow this while at the same time permitting women to remain at the front
00:50:42 permitting women to remain at the front line uh so first of all about that again this is reporting on the cnd's executive committee did you see access to what it was deciding as
00:50:54 access to what it was deciding as important I'm not sure how I have how I acquired that I can't I really honestly can't recall but yes that that chimes with what what I knew of what was happening at the time and from the
00:51:11 happening at the time and from the detail there talk of wire cutters and so forth yes is it right that right from the very top there was a commitment to nvda which plainly involved some form of
00:51:33 lawbreaking it's a slippery eel it's it's something that you can't you can't pin down to mix my metaphors you can't pin it down and sort of say this is exactly how it was the atmosphere was quite fluid and there was a lot of tension and as
00:51:48 tension and as as D-Day arrived as as the arrival of these missiles got closer so the tensions Rose so we're moving in that direction that there's there's almost a an
00:51:59 there's there's almost a an acknowledgement that people within the organ people within that movement not the organization people within the peace movement within the anti-nuclear movement wanted to do more and there was some frustrations expressed
00:52:11 some frustrations expressed about women were doing it all and that men felt they needed to have a role as well there was some frustration about not getting enough support from CND
00:52:22 not getting enough support from CND there was there was a lot going on and it wasn't absolutely Crystal Clear any of it but as far as that that's that's the best of what I understood at the
00:52:35 the best of what I understood at the time how how I translated it and that's about the best I can see and just to follow this particular example through to its conclusion which um you touched upon one of the tensions that then came
00:52:48 upon one of the tensions that then came to a head if we go to tab 244 please sir 20451
00:53:03 and if we could just see first of all that's a report from the 29th of November 83 could we have paragraphs 2 and three
00:53:17 please following the decision by the greenham common women that the day of action at greenham common on Sunday the 11th of December 1983 should be women
00:53:29 11th of December 1983 should be women only the campaign nuclear disarmament has cancelled Operation Christmas present as an alternative it has recommended a day of local actions on Monday the 12th of December 1983 and then you've uh put in the
00:53:40 1983 and then you've uh put in the handout which details them there is no doubt that the greenham common women's decision has thrown CND into
00:53:53 decision has thrown CND into considerable disarray with London region there is every indication that groups will divide their resources to accommodate both sexes and persons of varying Persuasions the main options
00:54:05 varying Persuasions the main options being discussed are Saturday the 10th of December 83 a mixed action at molesworth details in the November issue of campaign Sunday the 11th of December 1983 a women only action at greenham
00:54:19 1983 a women only action at greenham common and Monday the 12th of December local actions against Cruz is this the eventuation of of one of the one of the tensions you've
00:54:32 of the one of the tensions you've described yes I believe so namely the sex based uh yes I believe so and how important was reporting on
00:54:43 so and how important was reporting on all of this to special Branch I think I think they needed to have an understanding and I would add a little bit from my perspective and it is only
00:54:54 bit from my perspective and it is only my perspective as a male as a man that greenham common women there was it was not hierarchical it was divided there were various different groupings and camps around greenham common and they they were a very flat
00:55:08 common and they they were a very flat organization rather than a hierarchical organization so it was again like trying to grab smoke really and there was it
00:55:20 to grab smoke really and there was it was very cleverly structured in so far as you couldn't put your finger on anything and say yeah this is this is how it works because that camp might have it might have worked like that way in that camp but in another Camp down the road they were doing something
00:55:35 the road they were doing something completely different it's a strength and to some extent the weakness of nvda to be quite honest with you that it it it it enables them to sort of you could
00:55:47 it enables them to sort of you could infiltrate four groups and still not get the full grasp on what they might be doing you know and ultimately you concluded you were not in a very good place to report on oh yes for some time but by now I I was well aware that I I it was limited what I could
00:55:58 it was limited what I could offer as really I could give a general overview of it and see how how there was how there was um collation how there was an
00:56:09 um collation how there was an interaction between between the women and CN D but I couldn't go much further than that because because I just didn't have
00:56:17 have enough knowledge of it really and I never would have as a man how often did you go to greenham Common not very often
00:56:30 you go to greenham Common not very often I had women from my group who went there quite often and a lot of other women I talked to from other other areas like London region and so on would have informed me as well of of what was going on there you and even with their views they were different at differing views people came away from there with
00:56:42 people came away from there with different perspectives different understandings depending on what camp they had been to and what happened while they were there when you say not very often can you give us some
00:56:54 often can you give us some indication I honestly I honestly can't remember it would have been less than once a month less than yeah quite a lot less than once a month
00:57:06 quite a lot less than once a month probably about every two or three months at the most and how often did you go to other peace camps I didn't go to any other peace camps um can we move now from your
00:57:18 camps um can we move now from your reporting at the national level to your reporting about the topic of entryism into CND if that's the right word or at least the influence of of other groups yes within uh
00:57:35 yes within uh CND can we start please uh with in file two tab
00:57:37 two tab c25 that's
00:57:57 15490 and we're going back in time now to the early days your deployment this is 27th of July 1981 paragraphs 2 and three
00:58:08 1981 paragraphs 2 and three please Duncan Reese is at present the salaried full-time organizer for the campaign for nuclear disarmament he also acts as chairman for London region of CND as organizer he was directly
00:58:19 CND as organizer he was directly responsible for organizing the Faz Lane demonstration last month and the recent CND activists conference last May at
00:58:30 CND activists conference last May at present he's directing all his energies to organizing the CND National Conference due to take place later this year Reese is a very influential and
00:58:41 year Reese is a very influential and respected voice in CND and has gone to Great length to prevent further trotskyist gains within its ranks with this in mind he was the leading figure
00:58:52 this in mind he was the leading figure in preventing trotskyists from voting on contentious motions at the recent CN D activists conference this was achieved by breaking the conference into
00:59:05 by breaking the conference into specialized workshops with no direct votes being
00:59:12 taken how alert was CND in your experience to the desire by some groups to influence its activities
00:59:30 um I really I really couldn't say you I I couldn't reach into their minds on that I know I know there was there was this Obsession that everybody thought they were all Communists still and they weren't and they wanted to make that
00:59:41 weren't and they wanted to make that known whenever and however they could yeah but beyond that um I can only speak from the people
00:59:55 from the people I that I associated with and yeah there there was there was concern there was acknowledgement but there was also a
01:00:06 acknowledgement but there was also a feeling that the the organization was so big I think I've said this earlier the organization was so big it would been very difficult for it to be taken over I mean the labor party has demonstrated that in in other years with what they've done with with organizations and groups that have tried to infiltrate
01:00:19 to infiltrate them um the the picture you're painting of Rees pushing back against Tris and using devices yes in the administ ation
01:00:30 using devices yes in the administ ation of the conference to essentially control them how
01:00:36 them how representative is that of the mood or the atmosphere within CND during the years you were infiltrating it there's the stratus in all these organizations
01:00:48 the stratus in all these organizations there's a political Strat and there's a lot of people who are who love it and are wrapped up in the politics the day-to-day politics and everything that goes on and others who really don't care a jot about it and I'm just more concerned with doing active things to
01:00:59 concerned with doing active things to try and stop these weapons coming into the
01:01:00 the country so so I couldn't give you a broad how was it what was a feeling in the whole or it's too big the organization for that there's obviously
01:01:12 organization for that there's obviously no prohibition on people joining of any number of different political Hues was it the case that you might get somebody who was a
01:01:23 who was a trotskyist leaving their Trot skiest baggage as it were at the door and pitching into the CND campaign um probably probably um and this is this is without anything to back it up
01:01:34 is without anything to back it up everything evidential I can give you here to support it but my recollection of some of the resolutions for National
01:01:53 Conference you could almost pick out which ones had been influenced by groups by small local groups that had been been effectively taken over by swp or or tended towards a more libertarian view
01:02:05 tended towards a more libertarian view you you could almost by looking at what the resolution was work out the Dynamics of that individual group that had put forward that that resolution because
01:02:16 forward that that resolution because they were very varied you know it was it was a full spectrum of resolutions so that's the the other side of the coin I was talking about people who did bring their political views into yeah but I I I don't dispute what you
01:02:28 yeah but I I I don't dispute what you said that um people could leave their baggage at the door yes could we go now to tab 27
01:02:56 15503 30th of July 1981 paragraphs um 2 to four please both privacy and privacy are extremely active in the campaign for
01:03:08 extremely active in the campaign for nuclear disarmament together with their teenage children a boy and girl they form the nucleus of the sen panras CND group and in this capacity have been vehemently resisting attempts by
01:03:23 vehemently resisting attempts by trotskyist organizations to infiltrate that group privacy is a sent panras representative to London region of CND and is not involved in the publication of their
01:03:37 of their newsletter sorry beg pardon is involved her son name not known is at present setting up a Camden youth CND group The Family continued to reside at and we've
01:03:50 Family continued to reside at and we've rejected the address so this is a report on a
01:03:51 on a family from the St panas CND group um
01:04:02 family from the St panas CND group um vehemently resisting attempts by trotus organizations to infiltrate that group was the sen pan CND one of those branches of the kind you were just referring
01:04:16 referring to um yeah I don't think they ever took over there yes but yes well it was an indication of what was what what was happening at the time that there were some some groups where s swp really
01:04:27 some some groups where s swp really thought they could come in and and run him
01:04:35 and was it your understanding that special Branch would be very interested in
01:04:40 in understanding the actions of trotskyists within
01:04:44 within CND yes it would be of interest that's sure and the security s yes now the consequence of your reporting
01:04:51 reporting this is that a family which was in fact resisting trotskyist infiltration on your
01:05:07 infiltration on your description but with and was simply active within CND is a
01:05:10 CND is a subject of a report which is filed by the security service we still have today 43 years
01:05:31 service we still have today 43 years later was there any consideration given to the consequences of this sort of reporting and the intrusion on the lives of just ordinary CND
01:05:43 members um yes it would have been consideration given to it
01:05:53 um without knowing exactly I've got in mind who it might be but without knowing exactly who that was we yes obviously no name there might have been other reasons why I'd reported on that person before but
01:06:04 on that person before but presumably and because of that I wouldn't have felt as as reluctant to mention that
01:06:15 mention that here but there's certainly nothing about that in that particular report no no uh could we now go to tab 66 please to
01:06:43 17164 and um this is quite a long report but it's also quite important so we'll have to
01:06:56 also quite important so we'll have to spend some time on it uh starting with the date 11th of February 82 and if I could have perhaps the uh first three
01:07:01 three paragraphs the following following that together we can stop the bomb demonstration which was held in London in October 1981 the campaign for nuclear disarmament has experienced a
01:07:12 disarmament has experienced a spectacular growth in National membership which is currently approaching the 40,000 Mark when this is related to local CND groups were only a small percentage of national
01:07:29 small percentage of national members the campaign with some justification can claim some 300,000
01:07:33 300,000 sympathizers this growth together with awareness of the proposed arrival of cruise missiles in the United Kingdom has had a fundamental effect on CND the campaign can best be divided
01:07:48 CND the campaign can best be divided into three different Avenues of activity viz National including Regional
01:07:59 viz National including Regional organization local activity and direct action each of the above attracts specific types within
01:08:10 specific types within CND although at present there is nothing to suggest a split within the movement if we could go down now to have paragraphs four and
01:08:18 five those involved with national and Regional organizations believe that cnd's main strength lies in the large amount of support which at present it
01:08:31 amount of support which at present it tracks their field of activity is aimed at swaying large bodies of influential opinion for example trade unions the media Church groups politicians doctors and teachers this area of activity
01:08:43 and teachers this area of activity causes considerable infighting as groups with vested interests try to move the campaign in the same direction as their own politics or beliefs major lobbies
01:08:55 own politics or beliefs major lobbies within this field are the labor party the Communist Party of Great Britain Christians and to a lesser extent the Socialist Workers Party and the international Marxist group despite the
01:09:09 international Marxist group despite the considerable energies channeled into the campaign by the above
01:09:22 campaign by the above organizations the indications are that no single political body is remotely close to controlling its overall direction indeed the cpgb has seen its influence wne quite dramatically as CND has developed the
01:09:37 dramatically as CND has developed the reverse can be stated of the trotskyist organizations with reference to trade Union work and establishing International Peace links although there is no foreseeable likelihood of their
01:09:54 is no foreseeable likelihood of their influence growing in other CND fields of activity and in particular the National Council
01:10:01 Council so is this um your analysis based on your first few months in CND yep it probably is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but
01:10:13 any stretch of the imagination but that's that's how I saw it at that time and um do you stand by the phrase no single political body is remotely close to controlling its overall direction
01:10:25 overall direction yeah I think I
01:10:35 would there's a very broad Church yeah uh with considerable Democratic procedures yes yes when you reported this what was the reaction I don't know I know I say I
01:10:50 reaction I don't know I know I say I didn't get much feedback on what what I reported
01:10:51 reported unfortunately bearing in mind I I would add that throughout my time in the field because even my colleagues were under the misapprehension that all I was doing was just looking at CND full
01:11:08 was just looking at CND full stop it was not considered as sort of an exciting SDS role to
01:11:17 play did it prompt you to discuss with your
01:11:22 your managers whether there was an ongo any ongoing need to in filtrate CND it was an that was an ongoing debate and what we always ended up with was we
01:11:33 and what we always ended up with was we if any if it were going to move towards direct action our best chance of finding out what was going to happen would be keep an ear
01:11:48 keep an ear to what was going on in CND particularly London region CND because that was our major priority because we thought I think I said much earli on in the day that London normally had Echo of whatever was happening anywhere else in
01:12:00 whatever was happening anywhere else in the country and we were always astounded that that we hadn't ended up with a peace Camp say in front of the houses of Parliament I mean the there were attempts to do it but that was so so that was a justification for staying
01:12:12 that was a justification for staying there not because of CND itself from the outset nobody was pointing the finger at CN D and saying they're a problem it was some of the behavior of some of the
01:12:25 some of the behavior of some of the members and some of the people who were traveling along the same route as them um if we go on now to paragraph six
01:12:37 please the Second Avenue of activity within CND concerns local groups the participants can best be described as the moderate voice of CND many have no particular political allegiances and
01:12:53 particular political allegiances and campaign from a sincerely held belief that nuclear weapons are evil their views are similar to those of the multilateralist in the world disarmament campaign and their campaigning reflects
01:13:11 campaign and their campaigning reflects those similarities most are only active at local level and their activities go no further than showing the film war game recruiting petitioning letter writing fundraising and attending demonstrations we saw a little of that sort of activity in the very first reports I took you to didn't we
01:13:27 reports I took you to didn't we um you did report on this activity throughout though didn't you was that simply because it was a special Branch Way
01:13:39 Way yes can we go to paragraph seven and uh the the main body of eight
01:13:49 please the third and potentially most dangerous Avenue of activity involves groups which are planning for nonviolent direct action this is a new development within the revived CND and is a
01:14:02 within the revived CND and is a reflection of the hardening of attitudes of many CND members as the arrival of cruise missiles draws near in addition to these members nonviolent direct action attracts the libertarian groups
01:14:19 action attracts the libertarian groups anarchists London Green Peace the peace pledge Union the anti-nuclear campaign in various sections of the women's movement the problems presented by nonviolent direct action which has been developed in the light of experience
01:14:31 developed in the light of experience gained from marches and demonstrations held in the 1960s and 70s by the committee of 100 and thec are evident in the basic principles instilled at nonviolent direct action training
01:14:42 nonviolent direct action training weekends and then you set um those out um could I ask you hardening of
01:14:55 out um could I ask you hardening of attitudes I don't know did you watch did you watch the evidence yesterday no no um could you describe in your own words um what you meant by the hardening of
01:15:15 attitudes um yeah I I must say that word might sort of dangerous Avenue as well which worries me because I I I didn't see any danger from the danger for me was the the reaction that might
01:15:28 for me was the the reaction that might come come to over enthusiasm in direct action around the bases with American troops and nuclear weapons based within them and as we got closer to that and the day was arriving people who didn't want it to
01:15:42 arriving people who didn't want it to happen were becoming more desperate were more likely to perhaps take greater risks than they would have before and it's only my assessment of it I'm not saying that was happening it's just the
01:16:01 saying that was happening it's just the way I perceived it was moving and that's where hardening comes into it The View as as the Day of Reckoning arrived attitudes hardened to it if that helps it's I'm understanding you to be saying and there was likely to be more nonv violent direct action is that what you meant
01:16:15 meant yes um could we go to paragraph 10 and 11 please
01:16:27 potential targets for nonviolent direct action uh groups are airbases and military installations the press and broadcasting companies trains carrying nuclear materials and the civil defense
01:16:41 nuclear materials and the civil defense exercise operation Hard Rock planned for October
01:16:45 October 1982 can you recall where you got that list from no sorry should the Geneva zero option talks fail to prevent the introduction of cruise missiles to the
01:16:56 introduction of cruise missiles to the United Kingdom there is every indication that 1982 will witness a marked escalation of militancy within the peace movement and in particular a strong move towards direct
01:17:08 towards direct action I think that reflects what you you've just said yes um could we go down to the beginning of paragraph 12 a
01:17:20 to the beginning of paragraph 12 a completely different point that I want to ask you about organizations mentioned in this report labor party 400
01:17:33 400 7910 that's a registry file number isn't it yes believe so yes why has the labor party got a registry file I don't know I don't know I don't didn't even know that would have been searched that was that's
01:17:45 would have been searched that was that's been done by the office so I didn't even know there was there was a file like that so so because that's been mentioned in my report the office will have searched it if they decided they needed to put it in there so I can't tell you I
01:17:57 to put it in there so I can't tell you I I don't even know what that file's about did you understand that mainstream political parties could have special Branch
01:18:07 Branch files no no does that surprise does this it does actually yes to some
01:18:16 extent thank you could we go now please um to file one serve tab B2 27517
01:18:45 this is a document produced by the security service which we've obtained from them it's um
01:18:57 a letter which is addressed to the deputy assistant Commissioner of Metropolitan Police dated the 22nd of February
01:19:10 1982 thank you for your most interesting report of the 11th of February 1982 under reference 4811 183 which I my understanding is that's what we've just been looking at I found your source's view of the relative influence of the various subversive
01:19:22 influence of the various subversive groups within CND particularly useful
01:19:33 groups within CND particularly useful and it Accords very well with our own s thinking two Source information on the development of the movement for a campaign of nonviolent direct action in support of cnd's aims is also of great interest we have little information on
01:19:48 interest we have little information on this subject from other sources and will be grateful for any further detail Source can provide on plans for this form of activity the groups involved in it and on the training
01:20:08 weekends was this letter to the deputy assistant commissioner drawn to your attention did anybody say to you that the intelligence that you were producing had been described as
01:20:24 producing had been described as particularly useful no or give you any praise
01:20:26 praise whatsoever for this no did
01:20:40 no did anybody ask you uh to report further details on the plans for nonviolent direct
01:20:42 direct action no and I tell you why I'm surprised to actually even see this now is that at that stage if I'm not
01:20:55 is that at that stage if I'm not mistaken animal rights were considered something that was beneath neath the security
01:21:00 security service and this was seen in the same sort of field the direct action that animal rights activists were taking were seen in the same same field as animal rights which is why I'm absolutely astounded that suddenly they're
01:21:17 astounded that suddenly they're interested in something that before was subversive and now it's it's almost as they did with animal rights after the hores bolted they're trying to close the stable door can we take that down please and can we now go to
01:21:30 now go to 17271 which is File 2 tab c82 sir
01:22:06 could we see the date 16th of March 1982 um could we have paragraphs three and four
01:22:14 please Christine Kings speaking on behalf of national CND stated that women for peace is a front Organization for the Communist
01:22:25 front Organization for the Communist Party of Great Britain that if greenham common peace Camp provided them with a speaker then they would be disowned by national CND this threat had little if no effect on the women from greenham common who did provide a speaker and in
01:22:38 common who did provide a speaker and in the event National CND had to back down on their threat the above incident does however highlight a recent development
01:22:49 however highlight a recent development within CND following allegations in the press that CND receives financial support from the USSR National CND has not only opened its books to disprove the allegations but has also made
01:23:03 the allegations but has also made strenuous efforts to discourage support from
01:23:08 from cpgb this new development was confirmed at the recent London region CND book sale when Sandra mcgaan the organizer and herself a member of
01:23:19 and herself a member of cpgb expressed deep concern that it had been necessary to use the van from the cpgb's Bookshop to transport the books helpers at the book sale were sworn to
01:23:36 helpers at the book sale were sworn to secrecy on the subject as can be deduced from the above this information is only known to a trusted few although the general principle is more widely known so again clearly you're
01:23:47 so again clearly you're reporting on the Dynamics within CND and the influence of the cpgb you're reporting on cnd's
01:24:00 cpgb you're reporting on cnd's sensitivity to this issue for PR reasons yes I'm getting a feeling that CND is independent of the
01:24:13 independent of the cpgb but there are a lot of cpgb members within CND who are advancing cnd's aims is that fair I think yes yes
01:24:30 could we take that down please and go to in file one sir tab B10 29219
01:25:03 on Wednesday 8th of June and this is 83 DCI David short and Di Mike Barber visited
01:25:09 visited CSH after introducing Mike Barber to F6 we had discussions with the with a security service person and another Security Service person on the security service interest in CND Dave Short reaffirmed his
01:25:31 CND Dave Short reaffirmed his willingness to work to a written brief and the security service promised to provide such a brief and a list of subversive members of CND we then had discussions with F7 and F7 on the topics of animal Liberation and non cpgb subversive influences at
01:25:46 and non cpgb subversive influences at work in CND and other manifestations of the peace movement both SDS and F7 agreed that these were as yet somewhat amorphous areas where it was difficult as yet to acquire evidence of a
01:25:58 as yet to acquire evidence of a subversive content it was agreed that the exchange of views was useful and in such a fluid situation further discussions might be more productive
01:26:09 discussions might be more productive than efforts to provide formal written briefs first of all can you ever recall
01:26:22 briefs first of all can you ever recall being provided with a list of subversive members of CND no
01:26:34 never would you agree that it was difficult to acquire evidence of a subversive content about
01:26:40 CND um that's a hard one
01:26:56 really per se of itself CN is not subversive there's you don't see subversion there however I think there are subversive influences within
01:27:08 subversive influences within it and that there were there were subversive influences and that was exactly what you were reporting upon yes could we take that down now please and could we have up
01:27:20 19392 file four sir T 2 2
01:27:43 21 uh this is a report dated the 12th of August 1983 and if we could have paragraphs 2 and three
01:27:51 please the youth faction of the campaign for nuclear disarmament continues to suffer from the the influence of tropski elements within its ranks following a recent National Youth CND conference
01:28:06 recent National Youth CND conference where certain radical decisions were taken the national executive of CND nullified the entire conference the reason given was that youth CND was a subcommittee of national CND and therefore changes could only be
01:28:24 CND and therefore changes could only be made at the fall National CND conference despite this constitutional explanation the real reason was that the youth conference had been organized in a very haphazard manner thereby allowing both
01:28:35 haphazard manner thereby allowing both overage I.E over 21 years and non- youth CND members to attend and vote accordingly the conference was flooded by trotskyists who succeeded in passing resolutions which placed youth CND
01:28:47 resolutions which placed youth CND firmly in their hands although details of all the resolutions are not yet known it is certain that one was the raising of the membership age limit to 23 years
01:29:03 of the membership age limit to 23 years to facilitate the retention of an older trotskyist element um would it be fair to describe
01:29:16 element um would it be fair to describe the en nment of the youth CND conference as perhaps the high point of your reporting
01:29:24 reporting on trotsky's Shenanigans within CND if I put it that way I suppose yeah yeah would be reasonable comment uh and would it be fair to say from the reaction of national
01:29:39 from the reaction of national CND uh that they were equal to the task of dealing with them yes and did that example prompt any further discussion about continued involvement with
01:29:53 involvement with CND we come back to why I was there in the first place and I wasn't there to deal with this this was a byproduct of what I was originally tasked with doing which was to looking at non-violent direct action so all of this would not
01:30:09 direct action so all of this would not have been be because that there was no longer necessary to pay particular attention to this part would not have nullified the reason why I was in the field and I was in the field because it was a fear there was going to be
01:30:22 was a fear there was going to be nonviolent direct action on the Streets of London which never appeared in the end that remains a constant throughout yeah that's right so so I would have still there would still have been an
01:30:37 still there would still have been an argument for me to be retained can we go same file sir to tab 257 20883 please
01:30:58 we if we could see the date in paragraph one please 7th of February 1984 submitted here with the two documents which have been received from a secret and reliable source which must be protected the first is the peace
01:31:14 protected the first is the peace Anonymous newsletter five released in January 1984 and written by Peter kadigan the founder of the organization the second is also written by kadigan
01:31:25 the second is also written by kadigan and entitled assessment 84 and if we can go down to paragraph 4
01:31:36 please having in the meantime set out what's in those Publications the report goes on to say kadigan support for various nvda networks many of which feel a growing alienation from the CND establishment will undoubtedly be
01:31:48 establishment will undoubtedly be reciprocated in time it is of interest
01:32:07 reciprocated in time it is of interest to note that kadigan a lifelong pacifist an early CND member says in assessment 84 today the left I.E the labor party benites the Communist party and the sects continue to dominate cnd's National
01:32:08 National leadership kagan's public stating of what many privately suspect will not endear him to the leadership of
01:32:20 endear him to the leadership of CND and his reputation as a man who divides movements will be
01:32:30 increased how accurate was kagan's assessment about the continued domination of cnd's leadership by the various groups he lists
01:32:49 there probably not at all really I didn't I wouldn't agree with that he was quite a polemic figure wasn't he kigan it's all Misty to me I'm I'm afraid I'd like to say I knew him well but I
01:32:57 but I don't we can take that
01:33:09 don't we can take that down I want to move now to a couple of reports which involve the labor party could we have up first of all 15438 sir it's File 2 at C20
01:33:31 this is 1st of July 1981 paragraph two
01:33:41 please privacy of privacy is actively involved in the hamstad CND group and the world disarmament campaign although reticent to a her political views it is evident that she
01:33:57 political views it is evident that she is a sympathizer if not a member of this Communist Party of great written she propagates radical views within the local constituency labor
01:34:07 party this appears to be a report about a communist sympathizer entering a local constituency labor party to
01:34:23 party to propagate that first party's line is is that a fair summary of this
01:34:32 report um yes I suppose so yes you said this morning that my my gist of your evidence alarm Bells
01:34:40 Bells rang when it came to entryism into labor that was why you withdrew from Carl here you are reporting entryism into labor
01:34:57 you are reporting entryism into labor did that not well well did that not ring any alarm Bells well I also reported entryism into labor from the other organization I was with so it isn't the labor pit it's the party that that person came from well justifies the
01:35:12 person came from well justifies the reporting yeah well is it your evidence that if you came across a person infiltrating the labor party from the extreme left you would report it I think I would
01:35:26 report it I think I would that might be wrong but I think I would uh why would you do
01:35:40 um because we have always reported subversive activity could we take that down now please and could we have 2902 up that's file for tap 262 sir
01:36:10 this is a report from the 7th of February 1984 so I'm taking to almost to the end of your deployment now and paragraphs um 2 to four
01:36:25 please submitted herewith is a leaflet at advertising a fringe meeting of the newly formed London labor CND to take place at the Dolphin Public House tomb street
01:36:37 street nw1 during the lunch break of the London labor Party Conference the formation of this new subgroup follows a defeat at CND National Conference of the hard left within labor CND it is seen by Outsiders
01:36:54 within labor CND it is seen by Outsiders as an attempt by the hard left to secure a new power base within the labor party known founder members are Walter Wolf Gang Pat Aros Smith privacy and privacy privacy was one of the
01:37:07 privacy privacy was one of the Revolutionary youth ring leaders who were involved in an unsuccessful attempt to take over youth CND last year and now appears to have turned his attentions to
01:37:30 appears to have turned his attentions to labor CND in addition to being Secretary of London labor CND he is pekam cnd's delegate to London Regional Council where he is known for his dogmatic trotskyist outbursts and then you provide a physical uh description and other
01:37:38 other identifying features so again my question is why are you
01:37:47 you reporting
01:37:53 reporting Upon A subgroup within the labor part party London labor CND yeah it's a hard one I it seems to contradict what I've said that we don't
01:38:05 contradict what I've said that we don't report on labor party but my explanation for it or my justification from now because I I don't know exactly at the day but from now
01:38:16 know exactly at the day but from now looking back on it would be that what I'm reporting on there is a radicalization a radical group rather than the fact that they were late lab CN that they they were part of Labor CND
01:38:27 that they they were part of Labor CND the two names I see there are original Committee of 100 members who have been radical within CND from the early days
01:38:43 radical within CND from the early days that I recognize and as I say it wasn't that they were labor CND that made me report it it was the radicalized the radicalness radical whatever the word is was how radical the group were how radical they were
01:38:59 so would it be fair to encapsulate it as reporting on entryism into labor yes that would that's um that's what I was looking
01:39:05 looking for um we may or may not need to turn the next few documents up but I'm moving to contact between CND and Communist
01:39:17 CND and Communist States um you reported about an East
01:39:30 States um you reported about an East German film about the neutron bomb being shown despite Bruce Kent's best efforts to turn it down was there occasional contact between countries on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain and
01:39:45 side of the Iron Curtain and CN well I that's that's a hard one foral ones I don't I don't know one would assume it would be in their interest to have some influence on the group because because it would be in their in their wider political interest of East
01:39:58 wider political interest of East European groups how they did or whatever they did I don't know I I know no more than what I've reported in there would it
01:40:10 it be would it be entirely characteristic for Bruce Kent to have tried to fend that
01:40:14 that off think there was certain sensitivity about anything that suggested that that that they might remotely it's it's this it's this contradiction
01:40:25 this it's this contradiction between almost an inevitable Desire by East European agencies to try and have some influence in the campaign and paranoia within CND that they're all
01:40:40 paranoia within CND that they're all being labeled as commies and that the and that anything that might suggest that there's any connection between East and West was was a delicate subject that's probably the best I can offer on it um you report about a planned Pro
01:40:56 it um you report about a planned Pro protest against Eastern block embassies in
01:40:57 in 1984 and then a little later you report that the London groups are cool on that idea and the inference being uh that at
01:41:14 idea and the inference being uh that at least some members of CND don't actually want to protest against the Eastern block was that urrent within the membership um well I certainly think the priority was our own problems
01:41:30 can I move now to the I should add I should add that that the whole thing is all to do with salt talks strategic arm limitation talks and that that's what cruise missiles were all about so is quite a sensitive area
01:41:46 all about so is quite a sensitive area but it was our side of it that they were concerned about not not the easn side understood going to move now to the greater London council could we look please it's filed 2 tab c21 sir
01:42:21 15442 I just need the first page please thank you if that could be expanded thank you 2nd of July 1981 so we're back at the start of your deployment following information is been received from a
01:42:36 information is been received from a reliable source following the recent greater London Council decision to declare London a nuclear free zone the London region of the campaign for nuclear disarmament has prepared a list of proposals for submission as a
01:42:53 of proposals for submission as a consultation document it was intended that Walter Wolf Gang East ch en Richmond CND group would lead a delegation to meet GLC Representatives a copy of the document mentioned above is submitted with the
01:43:07 submitted with the report and then the references there one for Walter Wolf Gang and then there's greater London Council which has an RF number doesn't it yes yes why does greater London
01:43:22 it yes yes why does greater London Council have a registry file number I don't know was there a feeling at the time that the greater London Council
01:43:34 greater London Council um was comprised of a lot of people from the far
01:43:35 the far left it was certainly quite radical at that time yes and was that considered to be something um that needed to be kept an eye
01:43:51 an eye on not specifically that no that wasn't part of my brief
01:43:59 but you are here reporting on I am yes a consultation document being submitted to the GLC it's probably more the fact that it's Walter Wolf Gang doing it that I've reported it
01:44:13 for again I can take it that you weren't dissuaded from putting in this sort of
01:44:24 dissuaded from putting in this sort of report no can we take that down please and can we have up 17 052 tab 59
01:44:44 sir and if we could expand essentially the text on page one please this is the 30th of December 1981 a few months later the following the
01:44:58 a few months later the following the recent decision by the greater London Council to work towards its area becoming a nuclear free zone a Coordinating Committee comprising representatives from the GLC and from the London region of the campaign for nuclear disarmament has
01:45:09 campaign for nuclear disarmament has been established to consider areas of action the Coordinating Committee met at County Hall on the 3rd of December
01:45:26 County Hall on the 3rd of December 1981 and a number of decisions were made full details are attached worthy of no to the following points that the GLC Committee of Public Services and fire
01:45:39 Committee of Public Services and fire brigades will take no part whatsoever in operation Hard Rock a civil defense exercise planned for Autumn 1982 which will be the main area of CND
01:45:53 1982 which will be the main area of CND campaigning that all existing papers and documents and future ones relating to operation Hard Rock will be made available to CND that an announcement to the above effect will be made on the 29th of January 1982 by the
01:46:05 January 1982 by the GLC that a serious effort will be made to prevent nuclear materials being carried through the GLC area that an announcement will be made in June 1982 that London is a nuclear-free
01:46:16 that London is a nuclear-free zone that the and Ilia that's the in inner London education Authority isn't it yes representative will join the Coordinating
01:46:35 Coordinating Committee the the following names appear on the Coordinating Committee document and then it it lists some names
01:46:43 names um first of all were you present at this meeting I know I don't I don't think so I'm sure I wasn't do you know where you got the information from I don't um
01:46:53 don't um but it's your analysis is it uh that I've just read at paragraph three as to what the noteworthy points were yeah well yes y I would have preed
01:47:09 were yeah well yes y I would have preed what I got I assume some of these points do involve CND for example the second one um but others um are really about
01:47:29 one um but others um are really about the GLC itself so number four seems to be entirely about the GLC doesn't it yep similar
01:47:36 five
01:47:48 yep why were points such and four and five particularly worthy of note I don't think they were particularly worthy of note they were just there and I reported them
01:47:53 them did you think that you your superiors would have been interested in this sort of intelligence I suppose for me if
01:48:08 of intelligence I suppose for me if operation Hard Rock was a civil defense exercise and the planning for that I just thought I should let people know what was going to happen if operation Hard Rock had any planning to take place in London I but it wasn't going to be supported in London as a
01:48:19 going to be supported in London as a public servant this is quite awkward for you isn't it you've got one yeah you got an elected damned if I do and damned if I an elected Council deliberately not cooperating with a
01:48:32 deliberately not cooperating with a civil defense exercise exactly is that
01:48:43 civil defense exercise exactly is that why you reported it yes and so did you think the part of the state you were representing would want to know that
01:48:45 that um I yes from an operational point of
01:48:56 view because the might have been ramifications for policing if that had gone if all that had
01:49:06 happened but this is a democratically elected body isn't it yes but we'd still need to know about it if it went on did you feel any concern or awkwardness about reporting on the activities of a democratically elected Council it's a tight rope it is
01:49:18 Council it's a tight rope it is difficult to pretend that it's just easy and that throw everything in you can would would would sound as if we were quite blasy about everything and we were extremely conscious of of the
01:49:41 were extremely conscious of of the sensitivities and how the difficult path that we trod in a lot of things that we did can I assume again no no feedback from your managers about reporting this no
01:49:43 this no comment sir would this be a convenient moment for a break certainly we'll have our usual cour hour break
01:50:21 okay
02:08:20 e e
02:08:58 thank you sir could we go next to file three tab
02:09:00 three tab 178
02:09:21 18808 hn 65 I'm moving now from the GL C to Camden
02:09:26 to Camden Council this is a report dated the 8th of March
02:09:34 of March 1983 um could we blow up paragraphs 2 to 4
02:09:44 please Camden Council uh is the implementation of its nuclear freezer in the implementation of its nuclear free zone policy has recently set up a peace committee comprising Representatives of all the various peace groups in the burough including and then there is a
02:09:57 burough including and then there is a long list of which hamstad CND is the first the committee chaired by privacy of Camden Council worker
02:10:08 of Camden Council worker CND was given as its first task the spending of several thousands allocated for the implementation of nfz with only
02:10:24 for the implementation of nfz with only limited time available to spend the cash which must be disposed of prior to the 1st of April 1983 it was decided that it should be used to finance peace advertising both
02:10:39 used to finance peace advertising both in the local press and on Camden Council hoardings in the forthcoming Financial year Camden Council have promised further as yet unspecified funds for the committee and also the recruitment of a full-time Camden Council peace worker
02:10:52 full-time Camden Council peace worker can you remember whether you were the representative of hamstad CND at this
02:11:05 representative of hamstad CND at this meeting I don't think I was it doesn't it doesn't ring a bell with me do you know how you got hold of this information it would have been through the a member from our group but I don't know him I really don't know
02:11:22 know him I really don't know um you are here essentially putting in a report which is predominantly about the activities of Camden Council aren't you well I'm putting in a report on the
02:11:39 you well I'm putting in a report on the um nuclear free zones is the way I would look at it the principle the the the whole project of nuclear free zones you've told us that you infiltrated CND not because it was CND but for specific reasons we've now got you infiltrating a group group
02:11:53 now got you infiltrating a group group not because it was a group reporting on a local Council that it has dealings with I mean it's gone too far hasn't it by this stage well they're tentacles everywhere
02:12:09 stage well they're tentacles everywhere and we know some might have reached too far could we take that down please um I'm going to move now to the question of what might be called public order uh
02:12:32 of what might be called public order uh reporting you do report a great deal on the forthcoming demonstrations rallies and other events of CND during your deployment don't you yeah I I I really haven't can I assume so that's what I should be doing yeah
02:12:42 yeah um sometimes you're reporting of quite often you're reporting that no disorder is going to be um anticipated
02:12:54 is going to be um anticipated one instance you report on a March in Scotland that's going to go ahead despite a ban which presumably would have been of some interest to the local police up there MH
02:13:07 police up there MH um but isn't there a problem that CND is essentially a group that organizes orderly demonstrations and there is no need in fact to report upon it in that capacity
02:13:29 um yes but if you were going to find out if any direct action was going to take place if you weren't there you wouldn't find out and that was a problem so so where where you draw the line as to what you report where you are is
02:13:41 you report where you are is yeah I might have gone I might have strayed too far one way I don't know but I I still justify being there because that was the only way if there was
02:13:52 that was the only way if there was nonviolent out action then we were going to find out about it and even then it would have been quite precarious whether we did find out or not but if we look you only learn that as you go
02:14:03 you only learn that as you go along to what extent did you have discretion in what you reported or were you expected to report on everything that your group was
02:14:14 that your group was doing I
02:14:15 doing I [Music]
02:14:25 [Music] suppose I think the numbers game always plays a role in most work zones and it certainly does in ours and if I if I thought well there's something I don't need to report on it perhaps might have swayed me to put in things that weren't that weren't
02:14:47 weren't that weren't critical I might have I might have found an explanation for doing things but you know I I don't know is the answer I'm certainly certainly I was challenged already I know I know that I was there was a challenge that came
02:14:59 was a challenge that came through that is he doing enough and then when they looked at what I put in they said well he's doing more than everybody else so where did that challenge come
02:15:11 else so where did that challenge come from um be careful with management and I won't go any further the management management SDS within the SDS
02:15:22 management SDS within the SDS yeah um because the the consequences of this approach I'm going to suggest uh lead to some quite interesting reports should we have a look at a couple of them the first is at
02:15:33 17297 tab 84 sir in the second
02:15:45 volume now if we when this comes up
02:16:15 17927 this is 19th of March 1982 paragraph two as part of the campaign for nuclear disarmament week of action a peace ride has been organized
02:16:27 action a peace ride has been organized starting at 8:00 a.m. on Sunday the 11th of April 1982 from Speakers Corner Hy park with sponsored cyclists setting off for destinations all over the country
02:16:40 for destinations all over the country the attached leaflet gives details of this event which has been widely publicized and if you could go to the next page
02:16:51 please we see the first page of the leaflet which as you had correctly summarized sets out the details of a
02:17:02 summarized sets out the details of a sponsored bicycle ride from Speaker's Corner and if we go to the next page we see the sponsor a blank sponsorship sheet there is absolutely no police
02:17:17 sheet there is absolutely no police utility in this report at all is there
02:17:28 um I can't agree with you there and and the problem is you don't know until it happens whether the event that you think is going to be all right certainly
02:17:41 is going to be all right certainly doesn't become all right and I'll give you examples of that quite recently where you have old age pensioners climbing on top of tube trains in London but if you'd said the old age pensioners were going to do something like that and
02:17:52 were going to do something like that and a report had gone in about they might be going to to people would have laughed about it you don't because there's a peace ride doesn't mean that that local groups or a local nvda group might decide to to do a little bit more and
02:18:05 decide to to do a little bit more and this is purely and simply making people aware that this was going on I'm not saying there's any threat I didn't imply it but I felt it was something that should just be literally jotted down
02:18:16 should just be literally jotted down were something to happen then we would know the origins of why that had happened so to be clear there is no intelligence in this instance that
02:18:29 intelligence in this instance that there's going to be any direct action no absolutely none and there is no intelligence that is going to be any disorder
02:18:34 disorder no and it's a group whose events like this are
02:18:45 group whose events like this are generally conducted in an exemplary manner
02:18:47 manner yes the argument you've just advanced was be a cart Blan to report on pretty much anything wouldn't wouldn't
02:19:00 it that was the Dilemma the The Dilemma was specifically that with what was going on with the green and common women with the amount of nvda that was going on there and
02:19:11 of nvda that was going on there and there's a fear that it was going to extend elsewhere that knowing knowing where to look it's hard it's hard to to
02:19:27 where to look it's hard it's hard to to plan for it in two respects in that it's Diversified so there's no hierarchy so you don't know it doesn't it doesn't come down from the top when actions are going to take place and it's hard to be in 50 places at the same time and that's the strength of nvda because because
02:19:42 the strength of nvda because because trying to trying to police it is is very very difficult indeed so so you are right yes this is an innocuous event and nothing came of it but nothing was suggested coming for it it was literally
02:19:55 suggested coming for it it was literally just being marked down were something to happen or where nearer the point something to to come up that we would be aware of it I mean you're not suggesting are you that there needed to be police
02:20:11 are you that there needed to be police officers speakers no no no no no no is the reality in the cold light of day that this particular report is a bit of an embarrassment well that is an embarrassment looking back on it of course it is could we take that down
02:20:28 course it is could we take that down please um want to go next in file three to um tab
02:20:31 to um tab 105 uh please
02:20:39 sir and that is 18083
02:20:58 if we could expand that a bit please so 12th of May
02:21:07 1982 paragraph 2 the Acton branch of the campaign for nuclear disarmament will be holding a public debate at the council chamber Acton Town Hall at 7:30 p.m. on Friday the 14th of May 1982 the proposition will be that
02:21:18 1982 the proposition will be that Britain should abandon its nuclear weapons and leave NATO speaking for the motion will be Martin Rosier of Acton CND and against s George
02:21:30 CND and against s George Young is this one of your reports I don't know might it I probably not I don't know a lot about actum
02:21:48 Branch but if you had come to find out that the Acton Branch was holding this debate is it the sort of thing at the time you would have reported well it ends what the RF of Martin Roser is I
02:21:58 suppose did you know at the time who said George Young was no as I said I don't even know whether I did this I don't I really don't I'll move on
02:22:14 don't I'll move on then um could we have um tab 118 next please sir and that is um
02:22:20 is um for the projector
02:22:36 18233 now this is a report dat of the 4th of June 1982
02:22:41 1982 um notes for marshals and stewards distributed to Marshals and stewards appointed for the CND demonstration on the 6th of June
02:23:02 the 6th of June now you were one of the stewards for the sixth June um I want to take you first of all to paragraph two it is obvious from the instructions given in the document that the organizers of the demonstration wish the event to be peaceful and intend to give Police Every
02:23:19 peaceful and intend to give Police Every cooperation was that typical of CND with this sort of event oh yes yes and if we go to page seven
02:23:29 to emphasize uh the point there's a a legal points for stewards uh section um paragraph
02:23:42 one the arrangements for the assembly March and rally have been agreed with the police subject to the Proviso that they could make alterations where necessary few you feel that you are
02:23:55 necessary few you feel that you are being asked to do something without good reason do not offer physical resistance to or argue with individual constables but contact a senior Steward Andor one
02:24:11 but contact a senior Steward Andor one of the legal advisors explanation should be sought from senior policemen wearing flat caps with pips on their shoulders who will be standing apart from the policemen actually accompanying the March if we look at paragraph two
02:24:24 March if we look at paragraph two second half of that paragraph no matter how unjustified this type of police action may seem and this is talking about police officers stopping the sale
02:24:37 about police officers stopping the sale of literature by other groups uh do not become involved in these incidents if they occur and try to dissuade our Marchers from doing so as well three underlined if any form of disturbance occurs involving CND marches and police
02:24:53 occurs involving CND marches and police Your Role will be to help bring this to an end and as soon as possible and in doing so keep the number of arrests to a minimum if we go to paragraph five
02:25:22 please make up up your mind that you are going to keep your cool at all times even if the police and other people lose theirs the less trouble there is the less scope there is for the enemies of
02:25:33 less scope there is for the enemies of the movement to denigrate us then if we could move to the bit in Block capitals at the bottom please
02:25:59 this is in Block capitals remember at all costs confrontation is to be prevented that's underlined as well if something unto or does occur in for a legal advisor or senior policeman
02:26:21 legal advisor or senior policeman immediately I think I've dwelt on this document because it really emphasizes doesn't it that Not only was CND trying to organize law-abiding demonstrations it was giving its
02:26:33 demonstrations it was giving its stewards advice positively yes to act to make that happen
02:26:41 yes um can we now move to um document
02:26:53 to um document 2450 please that's tab 243 in file four sir
02:27:29 TW 2450 20450
02:27:54 this is slightly different and I'm putting this example to you as a contrast 29th of November 1983 paragraph 2 as a contribution to the day of local
02:28:09 2 as a contribution to the day of local action call by the campaign for nuclear disarmament CND for Monday the 12th of December
02:28:11 December 1983 members of hamster CND intend leafleting underground stations in their area during the morning rush hours and holding a torch lit vigil at Swiss
02:28:25 holding a torch lit vigil at Swiss cottage from 5:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. to obviate police interference whilst at the same time pacifying their more timid members they will notify police of the vigil at the
02:28:39 will notify police of the vigil at the very last moment the vigil is unlikely to attract more than 50 participants so this appears to be an example of qualified cooperation with the police
02:28:50 the police in your experience how common was that
02:29:14 um there was always there was always a tension to some extent that some people wanted to take things further
02:29:17 further but I I would say actually CN on the whole really didn't want anything else but peaceful demonstrations and if you did something else it'd rather their
02:29:29 did something else it'd rather their name wasn't on it they might support it but they'd rather their name wasn't on it and that's probably about the best I can offer you as a comment on
02:29:41 can offer you as a comment on that thank you we can take that down now I'm going to move now to nonviolent direct
02:29:51 direct action uh and can we start please with in file three sir tab c171 it's
02:30:16 18823 this is the 8th of March 1983 and I'm interested in paragraphs 2 to five
02:30:32 thank you on Sunday the 27th of February 1983 at 3 p.m. at County Hall se1 London region CND Council was addressed by privacy regarding a proposed 4-day blockade of upper Hayford Airbase from Tuesday the 31st of May
02:30:49 Tuesday the 31st of May 1983 to Friday the 3D of June 1983 it is intended that London CND will blockade the base for the last shift from Midnight to 6: pm on Friday the 3rd of June though there was unanimous support from the 40 or so delegates at the
02:31:06 from the 40 or so delegates at the meeting for the principle of a mixed sex blade of the base several delegates Express
02:31:13 Express concern on the following points that the organizers might be overestimating the number likely to participate in the blockade it is hoped that a thousand protesters will take part per shift can you just remember that phrase in
02:31:28 you just remember that phrase in Brackets about a thousand protesters hold that in mind y that a 4-day blockade is over ambitious and will meet with strong resistance from the police the previous successful blockade was on New Year's Eve when the base was not
02:31:40 New Year's Eve when the base was not really operational and that it would draw activists away from greenham common peace Camp which is the primary target
02:31:52 peace Camp which is the primary target despite the above mentioned reservations London region CND Council voted to support the blockade and a meeting to prepare mobilization for the event was
02:32:03 prepare mobilization for the event was arranged to take place at County Hall on Thursday the 10th of March 1983 at 700 p.m. each London group has been asked to send a delegate privacy also announced at six preparation workshops for the
02:32:16 at six preparation workshops for the action had been arranged to take place
02:32:27 action had been arranged to take place on Wednesdays at the Mary Ward Center 42 Queen Square wc1 commencing the 20th of April
02:32:34 1983 um if you could just conclude that by going over yes thank you the undermentioned were named as contacts and it sets out some contacts um this reads as if it's quite a big deal this is a big piece of nvda being discussed
02:32:59 is a big piece of nvda being discussed count Council level Regional CND London Regional CND given a rooll along with other cnds large numbers of people multiple days lots of preparation envisaged is that fair that's how it sounds yes and from your recollection of the blockade of of RF upper Hayford is
02:33:14 the blockade of of RF upper Hayford is this the sort of nvda that you've said throughout today was the core reason for infiltrating
02:33:30 CND it was what we were anticipating on a more regular basis and within the London
02:33:40 area as as the tensions Rose were you present at that council meeting I don't know I honest you don't know if we could take that down now and have up instead 351 158 that can I just come back if
02:33:56 351 158 that can I just come back if that was February 1981 I might well not have been it's 83 83 well then I probably was but I don't I don't remember if we could have up 351 158
02:34:11 please this is tab B7
02:34:20 sir now this is a special Branch threat assessment of the 20th of April 1983 about a 4-day blockade of upper Hayford on the exactly the same dates it reads um for uh material
02:34:36 dates it reads um for uh material purposes this report is an assessment of the expected support from the London region of CND and london-based upper Hayford peace Camp support groups for the 4-day blockade of upper Hayford US Air Force Base this is scheduled to be
02:34:52 Air Force Base this is scheduled to be held between 30 1st of May 1983 and the 3rd of June 1983 the purpose of this blockade is to support the upper Hayford peace camp and it has the full support of national
02:35:04 of national CND that of course was very clear from your report wasn't it yes protesters hope to prevent all movement in and out of the base organizers intend to to
02:35:15 of the base organizers intend to to divide support into a shift system to be allocated to Regions as follows and we saw that you did report on the shift for the London region which we see at the bottom the
02:35:27 region which we see at the bottom the sixth shift didn't you and if we could move on
02:35:33 move on please paragraph four information has been received from a reliable source that the organizers are planning for a thousand people from London to
02:35:50 thousand people from London to attend yes I think I said hope yeah you did um and it's been translated into planning but they were hoping for I yeah but you can see your your intelligence has informed this assessment hasn't it it would appear so yeah additionally they anticipate that numbers on the 3rd of June 83 will be
02:36:01 numbers on the 3rd of June 83 will be swell by supporters from other regions who've remained at the venue and then it goes on to talk about nonviolent direct action training sessions and you'd
02:36:12 action training sessions and you'd reported on that uh and so on I don't think we need to go into all the details but we see there don't we an example of a threat assessment which is at least in part informed by your
02:36:34 intelligence could we now go take that down please and have 17262
02:36:36 17262 up this is file two uh tab 80 so
02:37:02 and this if we start with two and three please it's a report from the 16th of March
02:37:15 1982 the planned blade of the six Gates leading into greenham common us AF base will go ahead at 6 p.m. on the 21st of March 1982 and last for 24 hours the participants believe to number some 60 women will chain themselves to each other and the gates with combination
02:37:29 other and the gates with combination locks prior to this Martha Street and privacy both from hamstad CND will duplicate a list of the names of the participants one list will be kept by
02:37:40 participants one list will be kept by them and the other will be locked in one of the Caravans lest the original is seized by police can we take it that the fact that these are members of um
02:37:51 fact that these are members of um hamsted CND is what why you might have detailed intelligence about their actions yes to prevent the removal of the Caravans from the peace Camp during the blockade their wheels will be
02:38:03 the blockade their wheels will be removed and one woman will remain in each
02:38:04 each Caravan I think we can skip four and could we look at five and six please during the festival which precedes the blockade it has been suggested that
02:38:15 blockade it has been suggested that participants should Endeavor to paint with spray cans Etc the whole of the chain fence around ing the base with regard to the actual blockade the participants have stated that they will make no attempt to prevent pedestrians
02:38:28 make no attempt to prevent pedestrians from entering the base they also believe
02:38:37 from entering the base they also believe that any confrontation will occur either at the main gate or at the gate leading to the construction site the National Council for civil liberties have promised to provide two observers at each gate and members of the support group who also intend to have observers with cameras at each gate whilst
02:38:48 with cameras at each gate whilst detailed of the blockade are common knowledge the remaining details are only known to CND activists involved at the peace
02:39:09 peace Camp would I be right to understand from that that this is the sort of action where the details would be kept secret
02:39:11 secret yes kept in a confined group
02:39:22 yes kept in a confined group yeah and that uh the detail that you are providing as a result of your access would be of interest to local police yep I would hope
02:39:39 so could we um take that down please um you reported on a lot of nvda training courses didn't you I think so yeah um As I understood your evidence is morning you did you attend one of these courses
02:39:54 you did you attend one of these courses yes I did that was that was right at the start and then there are many more um which you um report upon I don't think we need to turn up any specific
02:40:06 we need to turn up any specific examples could we go now instead please to
02:40:09 19047 file three sir tab 196
02:40:28 I think it's right at the back of the file so very very close to the
02:40:38 end this is a report dated the 27th of April
02:40:40 April 1983 and if you could look first of all we're going to be looking at paragraphs 2 three and four so if we could have two up first perhaps
02:40:51 up first perhaps please greenham common peace Camp has recently suffered from a sizable influx of radical lesbians to such an extent
02:41:06 of radical lesbians to such an extent that long-standing members of the camp are privately expressing doubts about its future Direction the problem is further exacerbated by an ever increasing debate within the campaign for nuclear
02:41:17 within the campaign for nuclear disarmament about the role of the women's movement just pausing there the phrase sizable influx of radical lesbians that's a bit sensationalized
02:41:28 lesbians that's a bit sensationalized isn't it no that was that was probably the phrase given to me by somebody from our group who been there it isn't something that I've elaborated or made to sound more
02:41:43 elaborated or made to sound more elaborate or exotic or whatever that was that was what was said to me could we have paragraph three by a woman I might add
02:41:50 add despite Universal approval of the initiative taken by the women who first
02:42:02 initiative taken by the women who first formed the peace camp at greenham common there is a growing feeling that many of the participants have now subordinated their peace principles in favor of furthering feminist issues although this view is not strictly true of the majority of long-term peace campers the recent presence of violently anti-male
02:42:22 recent presence of violently anti-male women at the camp has given substance to the ICS arguments if I could stop there and ask you about the phrase violently anti-male women again isn't that rather
02:42:34 anti-male women again isn't that rather sensationalized well I can only recount to you my experience when I went to greenham common with some women from our group and the plan was that we might
02:42:48 group and the plan was that we might stay overnight there and they came back and said to me I'm sorry you are not coming anywhere near the camp they don't want any men here and the description was very much as I've put down there of the attitude by
02:43:00 I've put down there of the attitude by certain people there at the camp at the time so I am reporting what was said to me by women who went there I'm not imagining it as a as a
02:43:16 male isn't the reality not that they were
02:43:21 were anti-male but they simp simply wanted to conduct an all female protest yeah perhaps I should have said anti-il at well I said at the camp that doesn't mean they're anti-male full stop it means they didn't want men at the
02:43:37 it means they didn't want men at the camp well you said presence of anti of violently anti-male women at the
02:43:47 camp all right yes okay yeah well if we can carry on um in addition many of the better known women from the camp such as Helen John are finding that more and more of their time is being taken up with touring the country and
02:43:58 taken up with touring the country and the continent to speak at various peace meetings and rallies thereby leaving the daytoday running of the camp in the hands of the ultra
02:44:09 hands of the ultra feminists stopping there isn't that again a little sensationalized well these are words that I am repeating from what was told to me by women from our
02:44:20 what was told to me by women from our group so so if they've sensationalized it then yes it is if not then that's the way it was could we go to paragraph four now
02:44:34 was could we go to paragraph four now please the fourth coming month therefore will see the original long-term members of the camp coming increasingly under attack unless they put their house in order soon there is a strong indication that future events at the airbase will
02:44:52 that future events at the airbase will be run on a mixed basis with control for their planning being taken over by national
02:44:53 national CND now that risk never eventuated did
02:45:05 it could we um take that down please and could we have up 19112 file 4 tab 202 please sir
02:45:29 thank you uh 13th of May 1983 I'm interested in paragraphs 2 to four
02:45:39 please the women of greenham common peace Camp have announced that they will be staging an international blade at greenham to stop cruise from the 4th to the 8th of July 1983 inclusive they
02:45:50 the 8th of July 1983 inclusive they state that the aim of the blockade is to seriously disrupt or work at the base through mass action the blade will be organized along similar lines to the proposed upper haford Blade with the
02:46:07 proposed upper haford Blade with the various regions being allocated a day of action London region have been assigned to Wednesday the 6th of July 1983 and the organizers hope for 3,000 participants including legal observers and supporters as well as actual blad
02:46:19 and supporters as well as actual blad leaders the organizers have asked that women in the London area begin spinning a network of small groups to support the
02:46:30 a network of small groups to support the action and women who are prepared to act as contacts have been asked to write to the July the 4th action greenham common office five Leonard Street
02:46:47 office five Leonard Street ec2 it is significant that no telephone number has been given for inquiries a fact which confirms the increasingly more cautious attitude of the organizers who are becoming increasingly paranoid about telephone tapping so does this stand as another
02:47:03 tapping so does this stand as another example of deliberately trying to keep details from the police of nonviolent direct action it's it's a common occurrence with nonviolent direct action that
02:47:16 direct action that the various groups at fall to participate in it keep their actions to themselves it's a way of making sure that the police don't get to know about
02:47:32 that the police don't get to know about it before it happens so yes it is it is an indication of that of just that as the saying guys just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean to say you're not being followed and you were there
02:47:45 not being followed and you were there yes uh could we take that down please and go to 2491 volume four sir tab
02:48:14 249 now if we have the date in paragraph two please 8th of December 1983 quite late on in your
02:48:19 deployment following a de ision at National CND conference to support greenham common women by obstructing emergency access routes when called upon to do so London region CND executive
02:48:37 to do so London region CND executive held an emergency meeting to discuss the feasibility of organizing a blockade of the North and South circular roads the intention is to block these routes when cruise missiles are deployed On
02:48:51 cruise missiles are deployed On Maneuvers now this is the first of a series of
02:48:53 series of reports about how cndd are going to react to cruise missiles or at least the launches going out on exercises isn't it
02:49:14 launches going out on exercises isn't it yes and that response included didn't it nonviolent direct action MH and perhaps a high point of what was discussed was blocking and we're talking here aren't
02:49:29 blocking and we're talking here aren't we the London North and South circular roads Y and you reported from your position in London on those plans as they developed didn't you yes and in the end there were plans weren't there
02:49:41 weren't there to not to blockade these roads completely for any protracted period but to try and interfere with them for short short bursts
02:49:54 short bursts yeah I'm I'm only remembering this very vaguely you know don't for one moment think I remember it clearly we could we could turn up all the reports I don't think there's a need to do so we've got it all in in writing sounds right did
02:50:11 it all in in writing sounds right did you get any response to your report your diligent reporting over a number of reports about this nvda I might well from Dave Short Dave sh might well have said something to me like that's great this is sort of and
02:50:25 like that's great this is sort of and and he would agree I mean we discussed it regularly although this might be after day Short's time actually if it was then no I wouldn't have yes and may we may be into yeah I think we are wait time by then so I
02:50:37 think we are wait time by then so I probably wouldn't have okay um as well as reporting we can take that down now thank you as well as reporting on individual planned actions you also
02:50:50 individual planned actions you also reported on those parts of CND or groups
02:51:03 reported on those parts of CND or groups within CND that were pushing nvda didn't you so I'm thinking here of action 24 mhm to recall reporting on them no not off the top of my head no okay let's turn it up 291 please file 4 tab 261
02:51:37 7th of February 84 if we look at paragraphs 2 to 4
02:51:45 please at the January meeting of CND National Council it was decided by a majority of 54 to 12 to ignore the visitor President Reagan to the United Kingdom in June 1984 in favor of a national par National demonstration to coincide with the
02:52:00 demonstration to coincide with the European parliamentary elections this decision has annoyed some activists within the peace movement who feel that President Reagan's visit should not be ignored Essex CND and in particular
02:52:14 ignored Essex CND and in particular Jimmy John's their National Council representative have set up an organization called action 84 to consider some form of protest to con coincide with the presidential visit to gain support for such a protest
02:52:26 to gain support for such a protest action 84 has called a meeting at County Hall on Sunday the 19th of February 1984 at 2 p.m. a handout detailing the
02:52:41 at 2 p.m. a handout detailing the buildup to this meeting has been sent to All CND branches throughout the country in addition to any plans organized by action 84 it has been learned that the greenham common women have already stated their intention to Stage some
02:52:54 stated their intention to Stage some form of demonstration in London during the visit I mean it's right isn't it that the national council's decision incensed the more radical activist didn't
02:53:08 didn't it and that the upshot was Jimmy John's setup action 84 it resolved on some direct action the National Council reversed its original decision and co-opted Jimmy
02:53:21 original decision and co-opted Jimmy John's onto its projects team to pre prevent a split in CND and you reported on all of that
02:53:39 yes did you get um any feedback for that series of
02:53:48 reports can we take that down please and and go to
02:53:54 um 14815 please tab 317 in the same file
02:54:13 so this is 7th of December
02:54:18 December 1984 so very late in your deployment if we look at paragraphs 2 to four please with reference to the refuse
02:54:32 please with reference to the refuse Cruise vigil and demonstration called by CND for 6 p.m. on Wednesday the 12th of December in Trafalga Square C attach leaflet plans have been made for nonviolent direct action Affinity groups and other supporters to demonstrate in
02:54:49 and other supporters to demonstrate in Parliament Square following the assembly the signal for demonstrators to leave Trafalga Square will be given by The Fallout marching band who will play while circling the demonstration on reaching the south side of the square for the second time believed to be timed
02:55:06 for the second time believed to be timed for 7:30 p.m. an attempt will be made to March along White allall to Parliament nvda groups are to lead the March and will stage a sitdown protest if police try to stop them on route should the police contain the demonstration in
02:55:17 police contain the demonstration in Trafalga Square individual groups will attempt to make their way to Parliament Square by whatever route they can so you appear there to be prospectively
02:55:33 appear there to be prospectively reporting on plans for nvda including some significant details yes do you know whether things like the cue to leave uh Trafalga square and and the
02:55:47 leave uh Trafalga square and and the contingent actions if police tried to stop the marches were matters that had been kept from the police I don't know I would have thought they would have
02:56:07 been did you get any reaction from your managers to this no I think we know the answer to that that one thank you um moving on now from nvda to conferences you report on three annual
02:56:23 conferences you report on three annual conferences covering the time that you were uh infiltrating CND why did you do that um I think it
02:56:34 was I must correct myself for 1981 to 1984 I only recall two clearly but um I'm prepared to accept I probably would have gone to four um it was to look at from that point of
02:56:49 um it was to look at from that point of view influences was to to glance at what was happening within the whole context of CND CU at these conferences there are a lot of subgroups and a lot of discussion groups and all sorts of
02:57:00 discussion groups and all sorts of things and it it gave you a really good flavor you got the pulse of what was happening at Grassroots level within CND I went along with other delegates from my my group I didn't vote um I actually we actually decided
02:57:16 vote um I actually we actually decided how we were going to vote before we even went there at an evening session where he ran through all the resolutions and the group decided and and me as facilitator just enabled that and I
02:57:27 facilitator just enabled that and I would have in theory had a deciding vote if we had had a draw but we never did so it was all decided beforehand and there was there was almost a Scrabble to get
02:57:39 was there was almost a Scrabble to get the voting card so I never had to use a voting card and it gave me the opportunity because I didn't have the voting card to actually look around all the various groups and just see how it was shaping up the whole the whole
02:57:52 was shaping up the whole the whole peripheral thing it wasn't the main bit that really interested me it was the peripheral the edges that were that were going to be more fruitful if if they
02:58:03 going to be more fruitful if if they were they probably weren't actually that fruitful but that was where I'd anticipated there'd be more more lwh hanging fruit anyway and your reports are long and detailed aren't they yes
02:58:17 are long and detailed aren't they yes they are and they do conclude with your observations don't they about what's going on within CND um I don't think we need to turn
02:58:31 CND um I don't think we need to turn them all up but could we start with the 1981 report that's file 2A tab 57
02:58:34 57 16798 please
02:59:06 now we see the date at the top 30th of November
02:59:11 November 1981 perhaps we could look at paragraph 2
02:59:19 please d the weekend of Friday the 13th of November 1981 to Sunday the 15th of November 1981 the campaign for nuclear disarmament cndd held its annual
02:59:30 disarmament cndd held its annual conference at Queen Mary's College myand Road London E1 the conference was attended by more than 500 delegates representing CND groups and Affiliated
02:59:41 representing CND groups and Affiliated organizations from areas throughout the British Isles a list of identified groups is recorded in appendix B to this report these were large Affairs weren't
02:59:56 report these were large Affairs weren't yeah oh absolutely yes if we could go to they got bigger the bottom of the page to the last couple of lines from paragraph four and all of paragraph five
03:00:13 please thank you um
03:00:23 at the bottom of paragraph four I just wanted to point out that uh there are a number of
03:00:26 number of um workshops including direct action weren't there at that conference Y and then at 5 at 7: p.m. the conference
03:00:37 then at 5 at 7: p.m. the conference split up into the various groups already mentioned by far the best attended
03:00:49 mentioned by far the best attended Workshop was that on direct action where 150 delegates crowned into a small room and many more were turned away at the door during this session it was overwhelmingly accepted that the time for direct action and if we could have
03:01:01 for direct action and if we could have the rest of the paragraph up thank you was near all present agreed that this subject was not suitable for open discussion in conference could I stop
03:01:12 discussion in conference could I stop there and ask you why was that because CND was still wedded to not doing direct action but equally all EX accepted the necessity for serious consideration of
03:01:24 necessity for serious consideration of its implementation with this in mind it was decided that the National Council statement on direct action did not go far enough and it was unanimously agreed that a further sentence should be
03:01:41 that a further sentence should be added during the session suggestions for occupying or blocking the approach to the cruise missile computer control center at high Wickam occupying Downing Street more peace camps like greenham
03:01:54 Street more peace camps like greenham common and making use of O days at US Air bases were put forward however nothing concrete was decided as it was felt that specific actions were better left to smaller groupings with the
03:02:12 left to smaller groupings with the eventual possibility of a Federation of these groupings as a campaign progressed is this um evidence of an upsurge an interest in direct
03:02:28 direct action yeah I think so yes yes yeah and if we could move to just the beginning of paragraph seven please for a different point I could I would perhaps add that at that stage the impact of greenh and common women had not been fully felt by the whole disarmament
03:02:46 fully felt by the whole disarmament campaign and it's this is very tense this is where it was going before greenham common took center stage and it's also very tentative compared to the later reports we looked at where the national yeah Council and executive are
03:02:59 national yeah Council and executive are very heavily involved in the planning of nvda thank you so seven on Saturday the
03:03:10 nvda thank you so seven on Saturday the 14th of November 1981 at 10:00 a.m. the conference was formally opened by Lord Hugh Jenkins the retire retiring chairman who welcomed all delegates and invited John to present the
03:03:22 invited John to present the conference arrangements then it goes on to deal with what Mr Cox said um Lord Hugh Jenkins is um well he was he he'd been a long serving politician before
03:03:38 been a long serving politician before being ennobled and was continuing his politics from the Lords wasn't he I think so
03:03:39 think so yeah was there any concern about um reporting on Lord Hugh Jenkins I don't think so and what why was that
03:03:50 don't think so and what why was that well because we weren't really saying a lot about him there he's only opened it and he hasn't we're not reporting any of his actions just he was there really I
03:04:01 his actions just he was there really I see um could we take that down I'm going to skip 82 and 83 because we've got we've got those all in writing and go to 84 before we go to your reports could we go to
03:04:15 reports could we go to 27545 so this is involv volume 1 tab
03:04:49 B17 this is a security service brief for the 1984
03:04:54 1984 Sheffield
03:04:56 Sheffield CND annual conference um what you can see on the screen at the moment are the first two pages of that but it goes on
03:05:09 first two pages of that but it goes on for another full page and then a couple of lines it is a very detailed document can you
03:05:21 can you recall seeing this document at the time no not off the top of my head no I can't no not at all can you
03:05:33 can't no not at all can you recall being briefed by anybody whether
03:05:44 recall being briefed by anybody whether from the security service or from within the SDS or any other source
03:05:46 source about what they wanted you to establish when you attended the 1984 conference
03:06:13 no uh might it have been that you were given quite a long list either orally or in writing of things that would be of interest it it might have that might have happened yes can we now go to the first of two
03:06:24 yes can we now go to the first of two reports that you appear to have produced the first is
03:06:27 14819 volume 4 tab 318 sir
03:07:04 now this um is a report dated the 11th of December 1984 it follows 1984 conference it's specifically about a splinter group which had named itself Direction
03:07:18 Direction 85 can you recall that no could we look at paragraph two please the 1984 annual conference of the campaign for nuclear disarmament
03:07:30 campaign for nuclear disarmament witnessed the launch of a new pressure group within its ranks to be known as Direction
03:07:34 Direction 85 the group instigated and convened by privacy of pekam CND a well-known trotskyist was formed as a direct result
03:07:47 trotskyist was formed as a direct result of CND conference Arrangements committee CAC refusal to allow a resolution calling for a major campaign and demonstration on the withdrawal from NATO theme to be included in the final agenda this decision infuriated not only
03:08:03 agenda this decision infuriated not only privacy but also members of London labor CND and London region CND who had supported the resolution following privacy failure to secure sufficient support for an emergency resolution
03:08:19 support for an emergency resolution condemning CN the national council's decision which upheld cac's initial rejection of the resolution he secured support from other dissatisfied people and groups and organized a fringe
03:08:33 and groups and organized a fringe meeting for the weekend of conference under the title of Direction
03:08:47 85 the issue here appears to be withdrawal from NATO and whether that should become part of the CND agenda does that trigger any
03:09:02 CND agenda does that trigger any memories no so I'm afraid no I was just thinking this doesn't trigger memories this uh Report with various leaflets connected to the issue is separate from your main report why would that have been I don't
03:09:14 that have been I don't know if we move now to the next tab perhaps it might have been something I thought was I no I only speculating I just just don't know I'm
03:09:32 just just don't know I'm sorry um we could go to tab 319 sir uh and if we could have up on the screen 14831
03:09:47 please this is your report for the 1984 annual conference I say your report did you work with hn 88 on this report I'm not sure I didn't think he was that involved while I was still there but um we we didn't actually cover much we didn't compare notes much at all so
03:10:02 didn't compare notes much at all so might this just be your report it might be
03:10:08 be yeah okay if we look at paragraphs two two to well we'll start with two please over the weekend of the 23rd 24th 25th of November 198 4 at the invitation of Sheffield City Council the 1984
03:10:23 of Sheffield City Council the 1984 annual conference of the campaign for nuclear disarmament took place at
03:10:35 nuclear disarmament took place at Sheffield City Hall although no exact attendance figures were given it is estimated that in excess of 1,500 individual members observers and delegates from local groups and Affiliated organizations attended so just as you said earlier these events got even bigger
03:10:49 got even bigger yes paragraph three throughout the week weend a series of workshops and Fringe meetings covering the majority of campaigning issues and activities were held details of these together with related handouts are submitted here with although feedback from all of these
03:11:04 although feedback from all of these activities has been impossible to obtain the following matters have become evident was it the Fringe meetings that you were particularly interested in from what you were saying um what I said
03:11:15 what you were saying um what I said earlier they they were normally more productive than what on in main conference as far as any chance of what was going to happen direct action wise in the future and they main issues you've highlighted plans for a
03:11:32 you've highlighted plans for a conference in Manchester sometime in Spring 1985 to revitalize the anti Cruise
03:11:33 Cruise campaign and by this stage Crews had been in the country for quite a while hadn't they yes outlin plans for a conference to examine and publicize the
03:11:46 conference to examine and publicize the possibilities of accidental nuclear war to be arranged by privacy plans for a women's campaig in conference despite the failure to have the issue debated on the conference floor the emergence of a
03:12:04 the conference floor the emergence of a new Grassroots pressure group Direction 85 which aims to follow on from action 84 and it refers to the report we've just looked at the bitter division created by a resolution relating to the nuclear weapons of the Soviet Union resolution 24 in the final agenda a
03:12:22 resolution 24 in the final agenda a document this Workshop was treated as a debate with Meg barisford taking the chair privacy speaking for the resolution and Vic Allen opposing it and I'll stop there do you recall um cnd's approach to Soviet
03:12:34 recall um cnd's approach to Soviet nuclear weapons being a divisive issue at that conference no fortunately no I
03:12:53 at that conference no fortunately no I don't can we turn now to paragraphs 28 8 to 30 please which is it starts at page 12 at the
03:13:03 bottom taking you here 65
03:13:06 65 to almost the very end of your report and essentially your concluding remarks which uh I'd like to have a look at with you please
03:13:20 if we start right at the bottom of the left hand page at
03:13:26 28 probably the most significant point to emerge from the conference was a recognition by most delegates at cnd's Main strength emanates from its ability to offer a broad-based campaign around
03:13:41 to offer a broad-based campaign around the single issue of nuclear weapons by resisting the temptation to link uh a recurring word throughout the weekend the campaign too closely with
03:13:52 weekend the campaign too closely with other issues I.E the anti-nuclear lobby the miners Nicaragua NCL and to a certain extent feminism CND believes that it can offer the best platform for all those opposed to
03:14:10 platform for all those opposed to nuclear weapons set against this is the unresolved problem of cnd's attitude towards the Soviet Union which many believe will recur during the coming year if we could move on
03:14:29 please on the campaigning front air Land Battle will probably be the most difficult resolution to implement effectively although the issue of withdrawal from NATO has been one within
03:14:44 withdrawal from NATO has been one within the campaign it is realized by activists that it is the most difficult of cnd's policies to sell to the public the profile given to withdrawal from NATO will again be a matter of much debate and the success and direction of
03:14:55 and the success and direction of Direction 85 will greatly influence the outcome of it less contentious campaigns launched at conference are slcm arms conversion illegality of
03:15:06 slcm arms conversion illegality of nuclear weapons and civil liberties nevertheless it is certain that the dominant issues for CND are likely to remain Trident and crude
03:15:17 remain Trident and crude with the distinct possibility that the Cruz Campaign Will Be Moved In emphasis towards
03:15:23 towards molesworth and finally paragraph 30 point due to the size of CND political pressure groups have found it increasingly difficult to exert their
03:15:43 increasingly difficult to exert their influence the success of the trotskyists and the NATO issue might well turn out to be an extremely Hollow victory for them and both the feminists and the
03:15:53 them and both the feminists and the green movement of had to learn that they can no longer expect automatic sympathy for their causes perhaps the Communist Party of Great Britain's pragmatic approach as outlined in a handout work for peace met with the most success and it is clear that
03:16:08 it is clear that cpgb still brings considerable influence to bear on CN stopping there are these concluding remarks of yours
03:16:23 are these concluding remarks of yours the sort of background influences that you referred to in your witness statement that's more the flavor of what we're looking for but it's all geared even more towards direct action but yes
03:16:38 even more towards direct action but yes yes that's more the flavor of what what I was looking
03:16:51 I was looking for um because you said in your witness statement that to understand these background influences required an undercover deployment and wasn't otherwise going to be picked up yes you also say in your witness statement that you are undertaking a
03:17:07 statement that you are undertaking a long-term assessment of the organization that informed the state's approach to it could you help me with what you meant by the state's approach to it
03:17:19 no I can't actually well if you are helping over a series of four years yes of infiltrating
03:17:30 series of four years yes of infiltrating CND really understanding what's going on within the movement reporting in an analytical way about those influences and
03:17:42 about those influences and currents that's a long-term assessment isn't it how does that
03:17:53 inform first of all the approach of special Branch to CND well I think I was probably referring to the security service there that would have been I see I was aware that the security service did did get these reports I
03:18:08 see and so your your assumption was it an assumption or was it knowledge was that they would be using your analysis to
03:18:18 to inform their approach appr or to help to inform their approach to CND yes did you know whether or not anybody else would be using your reports to
03:18:38 else would be using your reports to assist their response to CND no do you know whether or not your reports were sent for example to the home office
03:18:47 no did you ever get any inkling that any politicians were taking an interest in not at all special Branch assessments of CND not at
03:19:00 all I'm going to try once more did you get any
03:19:05 get any feedback I'm sorry I about this report was there any feedback well really no no okay no okay we can move I think there was a sigh of
03:19:16 we can move I think there was a sigh of relief that I was going from both sides right I see I mean in the office can I move now from reports um
03:19:27 office can I move now from reports um about the conferences to some of your reports about uh individuals can we have up first of all please
03:19:41 16672 which is in file two at
03:19:43 two at um Tab four
03:20:04 I may have given you the wrong tap sir could you please just rely on the uh version on the screen
03:20:09 screen um 3D of November 1981 paragraph 2 privacy a member of Woodford and wad CN
03:20:20 privacy a member of Woodford and wad CN group and London region CND committee is a subscriber to socialist challenge organ of the international Marxist group he also claims that he's undergone a
03:20:31 he also claims that he's undergone a probationary period within IMG but was refused full membership because of sexist and racist Tendencies despite this setback he still shares img's trotskyist principles within CND he's
03:20:45 trotskyist principles within CND he's considered a hardworking activist and an avid unil
03:20:53 avid unil naturalist three It is believed that he is unemployed and spends much of his time in the company of privacy of walthamstow CMD with whom he shares a free and easy sexual relationship and a predilection for smoking
03:21:05 predilection for smoking marijuana um why did you think it necessary to report on this gentleman's sexual
03:21:17 sexual relationship and his election for smoking
03:21:19 smoking marijuana
03:21:22 marijuana um if it's who I'm thinking it
03:21:31 is I really thought I got something quite
03:21:32 quite interesting somebody with um somebody at Tris who was really serious in his politics and going ahead but I got invited to a party that
03:21:47 ahead but I got invited to a party that I went along to hoping in the early days I don't know when this report was written but in the early days hoping that it would be a hot bed of conspiracies and everything else I was quite young and green in the field at
03:22:04 quite young and green in the field at the time and the frustration was it just turned out to be a mad party and free and easy smoking and fornications and it just I just got frustrated by it and it shouldn't have
03:22:15 frustrated by it and it shouldn't have gone in the report and I apologize for it if we could um take that down uh please I mean there are there are other examples I could take you to but um I don't think it's necessary in the light
03:22:29 don't think it's necessary in the light of that answer could we go to file forer tab
03:22:31 tab C230
03:22:48 19524 and this is the other end of your deployment 27th of September
03:22:59 27th of September 19 1983 I think um Mike thank you if we could have uh paragraph two up Mike Gothard a member of hamstad CND has been conducting a one-man campaign against the national press and TV
03:23:12 against the national press and TV regarding the lack of media coverage of the embassy's peace link his complaints have reached the sympathetic ear of Paul foot the journalist who has asked Gothard to forward details of any
03:23:28 Gothard to forward details of any further media discrimination which come to light it would appear that foot intends to publish a major article on this
03:23:39 this subject Paul foot was a very well-known journalist wasn't he yes he was of his time yeah why are you reporting on the intentions of a
03:23:59 journalist I'm reporting on the intentions of Mike gothart who happens to be using poor foot to further his cause so that's how Paul foot's name appears in this the report isn't about
03:24:11 appears in this the report isn't about Paul foot it's about Mike cotar did you ever get any instruction at any point from special Branch about the need need to be particularly sensitive to journalistic freedoms not that I'm aware of
03:24:28 freedoms not that I'm aware of no um could we take that down please and go to
03:24:35 2368 this is tab 288 in volume four
03:24:48 sir give 3 1st of July 1984 so this must be very very much at the end of your deployment uh it has been stated that privacy a full-time worker in CND sales
03:24:59 privacy a full-time worker in CND sales department has recently married privacy a member of Highgate CND and London region CND council member she has for some time cohabited with privacy at
03:25:13 some time cohabited with privacy at privacy where they will continue to reside this appears to be a report
03:25:24 reside this appears to be a report report which does no more than report on the marriage of two members of CND is that right yes it do be bearing in mind what you've told
03:25:38 do be bearing in mind what you've told us from the start of your evidence that the reason you're infiltrating CND is not
03:25:45 not CND why is it necessary to report on the marriage
03:25:47 marriage of two members it's not it's
03:25:59 excessive thank you that um that can come down now can we move to positions of
03:26:00 of responsibility uh you were the chair of the hamster branch of CND for some years weren't
03:26:11 weren't you that's debatable I always said when they when they press gang me into it I said I would not be chair I would only be a facilitator because that was the image
03:26:27 facilitator because that was the image that I was creating at the time I said I didn't want to control it I didn't want to to manage the group I wanted just to facilitate what we were doing so I always call myself facilitator they always called me a chair they introduced
03:26:43 always called me a chair they introduced me as a chair but I would still argue to this day that I didn't act like a chair um
03:26:51 chair um I think we've got turn up a document to show what a minority you were in if we look at um B9
03:27:10 29216 paragraph two please uh this is a note made by the security service for for the Le aen file on the 16th of May 1983 F1 has always been aware of and
03:27:28 1983 F1 has always been aware of and asked for briefs for the SDS source as a result of discussions with F1 it was agreed that F1 would look again the material from hn 65 and provide a fuller brief to Aid this I sought clarification from detective Chief Inspector David
03:27:44 from detective Chief Inspector David short about his access he is Chairman of hamstad CND has access to London regional office and as a devoted campaigner can find an opportunity to talk to many people in the movement I pass this to F1 so your your boss
03:27:58 pass this to F1 so your your boss thought you were chairman as well well yes I think in some of my reports I've even put down I'm considered chair but I stroke
03:28:07 stroke facilitator um you were chair for how long I honestly don't know two and a half years would it if you were 3 years
03:28:22 half years would it if you were 3 years yes it must have been probably more than two and a half wasn't it no there were two chairs before me were there yeah okay did you have any what were your thoughts before you accepted the
03:28:33 your thoughts before you accepted the position well I I resisted it when when
03:28:44 position well I I resisted it when when at at a meeting where we we were losing our chair who was moving elsewhere I resisted
03:28:51 did I told them that it wasn't my politics I didn't believe in hierarchical structures and I didn't want to be considered a chair and they all said but you're just the person we want because you're not aligned to
03:29:05 want because you're not aligned to anything that you're independent and you provide a a level balanced view I said well if you I said if if you take me on
03:29:17 well if you I said if if you take me on on the condition I am only a facilitator and not a chair then I'll do it but they still then called me chair so yes I was chairman but I didn't feel I was and I'd already told them that I didn't want to be a chairman I want to be a facilitator and and I saw
03:29:35 want to be a facilitator and and I saw quite a distinct difference between the two and in that role did you organize meetings no did you deal with any membership issues no did you deal with recruitment no uh did you provide
03:29:47 recruitment no uh did you provide support to members well yes yes and did you effectively represent the branch H yes yes yes with along with others I was never on my own
03:29:58 others I was never on my own representing Hamstead with others and that was with London region and it was definitely when went to conference and can I take it from the glowing terms in which um David sha was
03:30:10 glowing terms in which um David sha was prepared to paint your uh deployment uh that your managers were perect ly happy for you to act in Your Capacity
03:30:29 um you were the delegate to the National CND for hamstad I think a couple of times no no not that I
03:30:33 recall how did you end
03:30:40 up reporting on the National Council if you weren't a delegate all right to I didn't go to any National Council meetings I would probably have got that
03:30:57 meetings I would probably have got that from someone else within my group there were there was certainly a lady in my group who was Far More close to the center than I ever was and a lot a lot of what she brought back was ammunition
03:31:10 of what she brought back was ammunition for me really or or food for food for me okay
03:31:19 okay um does the name meline hag ring any not I think she was a woman who was of interest to the West Midlands special Branch because she was
03:31:31 Midlands special Branch because she was a CND activist Y and um her case led to the home Affairs select committee conducting an inquiry into special branch in 1984 yes is that something you became aware of no were you aware that the home
03:31:47 aware of no were you aware that the home Affairs select committee were running an inquiry
03:31:52 inquiry no were you aware that your managers as a
03:31:57 a result were thinking about whether CND should continue to be infiltrated no probably I was too close to the end of my
03:32:04 my time by
03:32:13 then um can I move now to the security service we've got a report uh which towards the end of your time in the
03:32:24 the SDS records that the security service was I quote well satisfied uh with your reporting were you aware of
03:32:37 that uh we've got a report which shows right at the end of your deployment uh that the security service were pressing your
03:32:48 your managers uh to keep you I think my manager was very happy to see the back of
03:32:55 of me were you aware of that pressure no I think I'd have been the last person to learn
03:33:08 last person to learn that there is a document which states that
03:33:13 that you attended the security services premises with DCI wait on the 6th of February
03:33:26 wait on the 6th of February 1985 and we're debriefed by them there I do not recall that at
03:33:34 all in the light of the Contemporary document recording it can I be clear are you saying you can't recall it and it didn't happen or are you
03:33:49 it and it didn't happen or are you saying I can't recall it but I accept it probably happened no I can't recall it because I don't think it happened that I'm sure it didn't happen well my memory says it never happened that's all I can tell you no more than that um I think I've been going for
03:34:05 that um I think I've been going for quite a while since the last break um I suspect if you don't need a break the stenographer they will do oh right okay um sir I'm in your hands how much longer do you have I'm not a million miles uh
03:34:23 do you have I'm not a million miles uh away from the end I would say 20 minutes maybe yes then I think we should have a break because um I'm afraid I have one or two questions that I want to ask when you finished um before we have the 15minute break for rule 10 questions so we will now break for 15
03:34:36 we will now break for 15 minutes to enable everyone but principally the witness and the uh stenographer to uh have a a short
03:35:14 rest
03:50:13 e e
03:50:55 thank you sir hn 65 can you recall when and how you first became aware of Kathy massa's
03:51:10 Revelations no no have you seen something on television about it or I've I've um yeah I I really don't don't know how I first or I read about it somewhere
03:51:27 somewhere um she said that the interest in CND she said amongst many other things the interest in CND ramped up for the 1983 election yeah did you notice within special
03:51:40 special Branch any increase in interest in that at that time I think it ramped up more because of the imminent arrival of Cru missiles rather than the election would be would be my take on
03:51:54 be would be my take on it did although there was I think there was quite a lot of activity geared towards the general election now I think about it but it was predominantly the thing that ramped up it was was was
03:52:08 thing that ramped up it was was was arrival the imminent arrival of and what activity ramped up in relation to the general
03:52:15 general election um I don't know we've covered one report there today haven't we um that was about it I mean I I didn't literally pay much attention I don't think my group really did much in the way of thinking what we might do in
03:52:34 that did Kathy masser's Revelations cause you to reflect on your infiltration of
03:52:37 CND well
03:52:49 um indirectly but my infiltration was not of C in my mind I was nvda I wasn't there for CND I didn't see it as my target it was I mentioned it once in one of my reports when you're going down the river look at the banks well that's what I thought I was doing with
03:53:00 I thought I was doing with CND okay um moving now to sexual relationships you've described in your
03:53:11 relationships you've described in your witness statement being the subject of a couple of sexual advances which you de with um did you discuss these with your managers no did you get any help from
03:53:25 managers no did you get any help from your managers with D I didn't need it I dealt with it um in terms of your colleagues did you ever hear any suggestion that the officer we know as hn
03:53:42 officer we know as hn 106 had been involved in any sexual activity
03:53:46 activity with a member of his group I'm going to need to look at please
03:53:52 do no absolutely not hn1 155 leave this
03:54:07 open no how well did you know the officer that we call hn 67
03:54:18 quite well not not excessively well but quite
03:54:28 quite well did he ever say anything at all uh about sexual activity with members of his Target group no did you ever hear any rumors or anything at all which
03:54:41 any rumors or anything at all which suggested that either he might have had a one night stand or or that he might have fathered a child
03:54:50 no
03:55:01 hn2 yep did you ever hear anything to the effect that he had been involved with a member of his group no sexually no
03:55:15 hn1 subsequently not at the time but later I've learned on that yes how much later oh much later when when everything hit the
03:55:23 hit the fan um Bob Lambert um yep again that was much later at the time not at all but you said that you heard some
03:55:37 you heard some rumors about Bob Lambert in your witness State I yeah can you help us with what rumors you might have heard about Bob
03:55:49 Lambert if I put in my witness statement it it's surprising and it would have meant i' talked about rumors after the event not while it was going on because I hadn't heard while I was there I
03:56:00 I hadn't heard while I was there I didn't know anything about it I think this is referring to after you'd left the SDS oh right yeah I might have heard yeah but I wouldn't know for sure and
03:56:11 yeah but I wouldn't know for sure and it's one of those things where you can confuse what you learn from from the media with what you knew at the time and that can be that can be quite confusing can you recall what rumors
03:56:26 confusing can you recall what rumors you'd heard about Bob Lambert after you left the
03:56:33 SDS what from the media or from I'm more interested in what you might have learned from colleagues or on the great F Well I I honestly don't know and I would confuse it with what I've learned from the
03:56:45 from the media it's right isn't it that you have I don't want you to name names but you have stayed in contact with former SDS colleagues haven't you yes uh and there have been some reunion meals haven't there
03:57:00 meals haven't there yes um at any of these reunions or when talking to your colleagues before the media storm broke
03:57:13 colleagues before the media storm broke did you ever hear any suggestion of any sexual activity between members of the SDS and members of the public Undercover the only one was Rick
03:57:28 Clark oh I tell I'm sorry I'm wrong also um oh c I can't they need to be careful
03:57:38 um oh c I can't they need to be careful with names yeah and it probably won't be in here because it's a transan guy but his name has been revealed now has it yeah it's been revealed by here he started off okay if his name's been published by the inquiry yes it's been published by the inquir just can't remember Vince Vince Harvey I see and
03:57:50 remember Vince Vince Harvey I see and what did you hear about Vince Harvey I think he said so much at the time that he had after he' finished at some stage
03:58:02 he had after he' finished at some stage it came out that he had had flirtations or Affairs while he was out can you recall anything about who told you that with did you hear I think he might have told me himself can you
03:58:16 he might have told me himself can you help us with where and when that might have
03:58:30 happened what was your reaction to learning that some of your colleagues had got involved sexually with members of the public in their undercover identities it might surprise you to hear I felt sorry for them really I thought I thought that they'd succumbed to Temptation
03:58:42 Temptation and it was a
03:58:48 it I'm only thinking that from the officer's point of view I'm not thinking about from the victim's point of view so please don't think I just blasy about that and that that's not important but I I just felt well you know he's he's
03:59:02 I just felt well you know he's he's fallen by the wayside almost so it was more a
03:59:03 more a sympathy there but for the grace of I suppose really and what was your what was your thinking so far as victims were concerned well the same that it can't be very nice to be
03:59:16 very nice to be deceived although I have to say unfortunately more of that goes on in daily life than we'd ever imagine did you when you leared
03:59:31 imagine did you when you leared about Vincent Harvey did you do anything about
03:59:32 about that I don't know but I think it was General Knowledge by the time he spoke to me about it it was it was General Knowledge it was several years after we' both finished
03:59:51 both finished and what was what has been the reaction of your colleagues to the Scandal that has broken in the media about sexual misconduct shock surprise
04:00:06 disappointment when you left the SDS at some point in your post SDS service you served again in C Squad as we discussed this morning yes
04:00:17 this morning yes in the light of your time with the SDS were you better able to identify what was SDS reporting and what wasn't when you returned to C Squad oh
04:00:35 Squad oh yes and are you I don't want you to say anything that might be harmful to the public interest or breach any restriction orders but were you able to
04:00:47 restriction orders but were you able to form a view as to how useful SDS intell was to see Squad in your time after serving with the
04:01:01 unit at the least it rounded out the picture for you and at his best it was one of the best things that ever happened it was brilliant it really made life a lot easier that you could actually know that the information you
04:01:16 actually know that the information you were getting was was rock solid or you know would appear to be Rock Solid so you know it was a full spectrum of reactions to
04:01:27 of reactions to it um completely different subject you've explained in your witness statement how you came to share some cannabis yes uh within your group had
04:01:39 cannabis yes uh within your group had you had any guidance at all from your managers about drug taking no you've told us in your Witness statement that you didn't report it no was that because you were concerned what the consequences might be no I don't think so I just
04:01:57 might be no I don't think so I just thought I was stupid for doing it quite frankly and it it it gave me a feeling of paranoia and I did it once and I wouldn't have done it again after that because I realized how stupid it was for me do you think any effective guidance could have been given on that
04:02:13 issue when you when you try and give guid
04:02:14 guid to guys who are working undercover if that becomes general knowledge then you're actually jeopardizing them out there more than
04:02:26 jeopardizing them out there more than more than you can imagine because the easiest way of testing if you're standing there and you're smoking cigarettes all day long and somebody offers you a puff on the joint and you say no I don't smoke it's going to put more interest on you that would actually
04:02:39 more interest on you that would actually be a test then of whether you might been undercover if they were thinking that would be the first test that do they' do so yeah yeah that's the problem with guidance on
04:02:52 guidance on it um going to move now to welfare yes um do you consider that the welfare support that you were provided with by the SDS at the time was
04:03:12 sufficient I left there quite angry and it was predominantly with my with my experiences in the last year with the with the management there is this to cut to the chase is this DCI weight yes you've described him as vindictive yeah
04:03:23 vindictive yeah um
04:03:25 um why because we banter went on all the
04:03:40 why because we banter went on all the time in the office and he would mock me and I would mock him and he took umage to the subjects I mocked him about um he you said he was a Freemason yes was I don't know whether he was or not but he didn't like me saying he was was
04:03:56 was was Freemasonry an issue within the SDS no but Freemasonry is an Old Chestnut within the Police Service there's always been historically there's this anecdote that Freemasons get on better than other police officers I'm I'm not suggesting
04:04:10 police officers I'm I'm not suggesting he got promoted by any way through that it was it was purely it was for me it was good ammunition when he was taking the Mickey out of me I thought it was
04:04:21 the Mickey out of me I thought it was banter but apparently it I bit too deep CU I did pay a price for it afterwards you've described after leaving the SDS getting Vivid and
04:04:32 leaving the SDS getting Vivid and troubling nightmares yeah were you able to seek help for those I didn't seek help did you need help for those I don't know were they transient or have they been enduring um
04:04:45 been enduring um it was more the nightmares were about being revealed really that that so they went I didn't wake up screaming or anything that but I was sweating a bit when I woke up with it and that I'm not
04:05:02 when I woke up with it and that I'm not the only one to have had that experience I think you know it's it's one of those things that you bottle up and keep in when you're doing it and then subsequently you uh Let It Go do you think it would have been better if there had been more formal post deployment support for this I don't
04:05:15 post deployment support for this I don't know I'm not very good with that sort of thing so I don't know you've been very patient with my questions as the chairman mentioned um that doesn't mean to say you're
04:05:26 that doesn't mean to say you're completely finished but i' I've finished thank you very much thank you sir there's one topic I want to um explore with you a little further if I
04:05:41 explore with you a little further if I may and that is how it was that you came to be targeted at or to infiltrate the CND hamsted branch right um can I go back to your days in C
04:06:01 right um can I go back to your days in C Squad before you joined the STS yes when as you say CND had a file and or a desk it was scrutinized and generated by zquad um see I only knew CND had a desk while I was deployed yes not when I was in C it didn't have a desk so it hasn't been
04:06:14 didn't have a desk so it hasn't been going all the way through we didn't have a CND desk thank you for clearing that up because I had misunderstood that right um was CND of any interest to see Squad before you joined the SDS um in your time I'm not talking
04:06:26 SDS um in your time I'm not talking about before your time in the 60s and 70s I think our interest probably started around about the same time they were probably slightly ahead of me yeah they were ahead of me because it was notice it already noticeable that it was becoming once the decision to introduce
04:06:43 becoming once the decision to introduce Cru missiles was taken it started taking off and I think we sensed that as a branch and felt that we did need to actually get some sort of handle on it so it is the um discussed and then
04:06:56 it so it is the um discussed and then planned introduction of cruise and ping ping missiles that set off a renewed interest yeah in C Squad how C happened yes
04:07:09 yes yeah now initially you were not going to be deployed into CND you went into the well you you uh attended one of two West Hamstead events um Hamstead Hamad Hamstead sorry not West forgive me
04:07:22 Hamstead sorry not West forgive me Hamstead I'm not a London or I get my geography wrong H hamsted um you attended some hamster uh events yes really to um U see how you could how how you were going it was really trying out
04:07:35 you were going it was really trying out my new persona yes it was just that and it was exactly the same as guys one of the things they said was get a library ticket you know it's just just things that fitted you into the community and
04:07:47 that fitted you into the community and if ever if ever you were talking about where you lived you could say oh well I've been going to CND meetings or whatever as well so it was no more than that it was just a little tick in the box for my background could I ask please that
04:08:09 background could I ask please that 15323 ucpi 1 uh ucpi 1 23 45 Z 1 5323 is put on the screen
04:08:30 could it be expanded so it can be
04:08:34 read thank you
04:08:50 y this is the first report which has been retrieved which is attributed to you um about CND uh in as it turns out west hampon and Kilburn yes
04:09:05 um I don't suppose one moment you you remember the report but is that uh the sort of thing that you were attending uh in the Rory phase of your deployment I think I must I probably
04:09:19 deployment I think I must I probably just came across it and I might even have got it off the hamster um they had a stall every Saturday in by the up by the tube station and they'd have a stall to sell books and so on and there might have
04:09:30 books and so on and there might have been some leaflets there and I might have got it from there and thought the guy is assous worker party member this
04:09:42 guy is assous worker party member this could be of interest to the branch which is the only reason why I put it in understood
04:09:48 so that the early meetings that you attended it had anything to do with hamstad CND you wouldn't have bothered to report no not really no can I ask now please that um ucpi
04:10:00 please that um ucpi 55339 is put up
04:10:20 again could
04:10:26 um paragraph two be expanded so it can be read
04:10:55 this is the first um if I can put it in this way business report about CND that has been attributed to you which the inquiry has recovered right um if you
04:11:06 inquiry has recovered right um if you could um look a little bit down the text it may remind you there's a a speech by Bruce Kent paragraph
04:11:09 4 discussion about uh legal action
04:11:15 then paragraph five a Dutch
04:11:24 speaker paragraph six if that could be blown up
04:11:47 please is that sufficiently large food readed yeah I think so yep yep if I get a bit closer yeah I can
04:11:51 y not
04:11:57 now yes thank you
04:12:15 yes as well as being the first substantive report about uh CND that you've produced there is uh the first mention of direct action and discussions
04:12:30 mention of direct action and discussions about it yes um as we saw from paragraph two uh this is a conference of campaign for nuclear disarmament activists which over 300 people attended do you recall attending um
04:12:43 attended do you recall attending um vaguely vaguely and when I say activist I would I would imagine that that had been aimed at the people who wanted to do something about it rather than support the campaign so that would have
04:12:55 support the campaign so that would have wet my interest yeah straight away can I take it this is a meeting that you attended yes yes sorry so it was open to people who hadn't been associated with CND for any great length of time
04:13:09 yes and that report reporting of events such as this wed your interest in direct action at the behest of or under the cover of CND yes this this is part of what went
04:13:26 CND yes this this is part of what went the my now you you described already the circumstances in which your initial deployment uh into as it turns out a group that infiltrated Carl yes um came to an end yes um you were your your deployment then
04:13:44 um you were your your deployment then became into CND there's no other group infiltrated at this well I was yes because I was within CND yes it moved but it and I remember having by that
04:13:55 but it and I remember having by that time Dave Short was the Chief Inspector and I remember having a very clear conversation with Dave SCH that he said you're not infiltrating CND you're infiltrating nonviolent direct action
04:14:07 infiltrating nonviolent direct action that's what your target is now I think you might find on some reports in the early days you have either CND or n vda but it ended up by the end of my time that everybody was saying I was in CND um can I perhaps correct your memory
04:14:21 um can I perhaps correct your memory yeah the um information that we have which is based on um contemporaneous documents and appears to be reliable yeah is that Trevor Butler was the
04:14:41 yeah is that Trevor Butler was the uh Chief Inspector in charge of the SDS at this time that's to say in May 1981 right and was so um until uh as you rightly point out DCI short took over from him but that's towards the end of 1981 after you had
04:15:02 towards the end of 1981 after you had already produced a number of reports on CND well yes so okay um I was thinking this might be a little bit further getting the times right and this is quite quite tricky understood it's a long time ago the decision when I find when I finally did move over at that
04:15:15 when I finally did move over at that stage I was still my predominant Target was still league for socialist action I was still in the middle of of extricating myself from the league for socialist action Carl
04:15:37 campaign and this was one of several triggers that led to me rather than moving to perhaps s swp being directed towards action um the last report which the
04:15:50 action um the last report which the inquiry has retrieved which is anything to do with Carl um precedes uh these reports in May uh the last report in fact is dated the 13th of April I won't ask that it be put up
04:16:01 April I won't ask that it be put up because it I don't think it matters greatly no um but if you want to see it I can put up for you but um it it looks as though you're reporting on at any
04:16:13 as though you're reporting on at any rate Carl and the league for socialist action um came to an end sometime in April yep well there was Hiatus after that and that was where it was where I
04:16:26 that and that was where it was where I was going to go next but I don't think the decision for me to actually stick with nvda was taken by
04:16:30 by [Music]
04:16:37 um but it was actually taken by Dave Short I I think you will find I I haven't counted the number of reports but there are
04:16:53 um roughly or slightly more than 30 reports on
04:16:53 on CND before uh short takes over right well I can only assume that that that as an interim measure they found it quite useful to have some take on CND while
04:17:07 useful to have some take on CND while while they were waiting to redeploy me but certainly the talk at the time was about deploying me in towards s swp and it was things like that and a nonviolent
04:17:19 it was things like that and a nonviolent weekend nonviolent direct action weekend that I went to when I don't know exactly that that led to this this view that perhaps we should look at this more seriously and that that should be where
04:17:35 seriously and that that should be where I'm directed rather than it just being a peripheral thing so emerged from really literally just a rubber stamp on my character my my the the Persona I was cre creating to being a full-time it was
04:17:53 cre creating to being a full-time it was a gradual change a gradual metamorphosis it wasn't rapid and immediate with like a switch you know and this is probably somewhere in the interim period and it's it's things like I mentioned in there that wet our appetites and said hey this this could really take
04:18:08 this could really take off but the real thing was when greenham took
04:18:09 took off the and that would be when um the women came down from Cardiff to start with which I think is is dated to October yes October 1981
04:18:21 October yes October 1981 yes so would it be would this be a fair summary of um your understanding of the reasons for your deployment into CND is that this is something that
04:18:32 that this is something that emerged as a result of your discussions initially with um Trevor Butler yes and
04:18:49 initially with um Trevor Butler yes and then became hard and fast to decision uh when uh short took over and the um uh green common women started their activities yeah the last bit I would agree sir um where I slightly differ hn 68 I'm not going to make the same
04:19:00 68 I'm not going to make the same mistake twice hn 68 was a person I had most of these discussions with ah rather than Trevor Butler thank you for correcting me that does correct the
04:19:22 correcting me that does correct the misapprehension I had and so and he was the DI he was he was the go between he was he was bearing in mind of his his background his experience he was the person you went to if you sought guidance Trevor had never done it that that I understand yeah but the in so far as a
04:19:31 as a decision
04:19:32 decision was made at least provisionally before short arrived yes uh it was as a result of discussions between you and hn6
04:19:47 of discussions between you and hn6 yeah that it was let's just hang on with this at the moment and we'll see how it goes and then it was firmed up by Dave Short yes but um before the arrival of short there was no sense of um hn 68
04:19:59 short there was no sense of um hn 68 saying to uh a decision has now been made we want you in CND no no it was just keep on at the moment and we'll think about what we're going to do thank you I'm sorry that took me
04:20:11 do thank you I'm sorry that took me rather longer than I had anticip ated um we now I'm afraid but have another break of 15 minutes or most of 15 minutes to permit any questions to be um put to Mr
04:20:28 permit any questions to be um put to Mr bar to ask of you again but once that's been done uh then your very long day will have have finished thank
04:20:41 you
04:35:10 e e
04:36:09 thank you sir I've got one point of clarification to very short lines of further questioning and I know that my learned friend Mr Sanders wishes to
04:36:21 learned friend Mr Sanders wishes to reexamine the point of clarification is that I can say that in relation to the es Squad senior manager who the witness said this morning was a frequent um
04:36:33 said this morning was a frequent um visitor the name that was written down was Palmer Hall that name is not restricted and so I can let everybody know that was the name the first of the two further lines of questioning are in relation to
04:36:59 of questioning are in relation to Richard Clark you've told us that you learned about Richard Clark from hn 296 no 126 I beg your pardon 126
04:37:09 um do you know whether your managers were aware of what had happened to Richard Clark yes I would have thought they were it was it was reasonably well known uh the second issue is I'm going
04:37:23 known uh the second issue is I'm going to ask you some questions to clarify the evidence you gave about Kath Kathy masseter please could you be careful just to answer my questions yes precisely uh no
04:37:35 names when did you find out that Kathy
04:37:46 M was working for the security service with an interest in the
04:37:57 CND I believe it was after I left SDS no name no names how did you find
04:38:10 out I'm believe I've either seen something on television or I've read something in some
04:38:17 article how did you know that she didn't want your
04:38:22 reports um that was made evident from an early stage that the security service and I
04:38:35 stage that the security service and I knew as a woman I didn't know the name that had expressed The View that they were happy with their own source within
04:38:46 were happy with their own source within C and d and didn't really need anything because I think what we' done is we' offered as I was there there was anything that might be of that they might be useful to them that I would do and it was it was then we've seen from
04:39:01 and it was it was then we've seen from their own documents that they certainly seem to have changed their mind apparently okay this this is the first time I've learned that right thank you very much okay
04:39:25 uh thank you sir it's just um three quick topics uh you you were asked about who your contact was in in the Hamstead CND who who had access to the National level I think you were asked whether it was meline hay and you said it wasn't um I I think you can say who it was because she's deceased if you could just confirm
04:39:41 she's deceased if you could just confirm it was um mowen can't remember the first name now Sandra M thank you um second very quick topic you were asked about
04:39:54 very quick topic you were asked about having said in your statement your first statement that you'd heard rumors about Bob Lambert I just want to take you to that part of your statement just to try and refresh your memory as to what that they may have been about um so it's your first statement which is MPS 07
04:40:09 which is MPS 07 43186 uh and it's at page page 61 of the internal pagination um hope that will come up and just to start at paragraph
04:40:30 178 so yes that down a page because it's the the pagination within the document there
04:40:36 there um just to can you just read 178 down to the end of 180 which is over the page right that's where you mention about the rumors
04:41:11 yeah I read this all I can and then get just a just a couple of lines over the page top of the next
04:41:28 page yes it's not very clear is it no um is it fair to say that you you recall rumors um and it appears from from the way it's written here that they were more to do with debony than with sexual relations that's just what I was going
04:41:41 relations that's just what I was going to say I believe what I'm referring to in 179 there was conversations about what was going on that led up to deams thank you and the the third and and final topic it's just about we we looked
04:41:56 final topic it's just about we we looked at some some of your reports which had a reference to uh a registry file registered file for the labor party and a registered file for the for the GLC um you didn't add in the RF
04:42:09 GLC um you didn't add in the RF references to the I didn't put them down that was that was toed and tailed in the office did you have any familiarity with the the workings of the registry itself and the criteria it applied when it
04:42:24 and the criteria it applied when it opened files some but it was not perfect by any stretch of the imagination um during the course of the inquiry and this isn't in in your witness pack but there are all sorts of um reports where
04:42:40 there are all sorts of um reports where there are registry files for commercial organizations Charities local authorities hospitals universities there's one for Boots the chemist yes
04:42:51 there's one for Boots the chemist yes yes um would it might the registry have opened a file for an organization without the organization being a subject of if things get mentioned enough in the branch they tend to end getting a file of some sort so it doesn't mean that
04:43:03 of some sort so it doesn't mean that special Branch was monitoring the labor no and I must say that that was why I was Bamboozled a little bit when when it came up I'm grateful thank you very much thank you sir
04:43:15 thank you very much for taking a very long day to assist me with my inquiry I'm very grateful to you what you have told me is of the greatest interest and I'm as I say extremely grateful to you for for doing so thank you
04:43:27 for for doing so thank you sir we will resume uh tomorrow at 10: when the topic will be green and calling women I think mostly
04:43:40 mostly
04:44:40 e e