Morning session begins with summaries of HN88 and HN33's evidence, followed by extensive testimony from HN65 'John Kerry'. HN33 was the only female SDS officer deployed 1983-1985, targeting Greenham Common women with minimal training. HN65 discusses his deployment into CND, reporting practices on Campaign Against Racist Laws, relationship pressures, and extensive questioning about reporting on legitimate political activity including CND branch meetings, executive committees, and campaigning during the 1983 general election.
00:18:27 e e
00:19:11 good morning and welcome to the
00:19:22 uh I forgotten the number the day of of of evidential hearings I think it's the sixth um
00:19:33 sixth um we begin as always with the warning that I must must give uh to everybody in the room you may use any electronic device that you have for telling the outside world what you have heard but only 10 minutes after the event you're describing that's to fit in with the um
00:19:46 describing that's to fit in with the um means of publication of what is going on which has a 10-minute delay you may not use your electronic device for recording or photographing what is going on in
00:19:58 or photographing what is going on in this room Miss Naylor I think uh oh I'm sorry I do apologize thank you sir sir this is a summary of the evidence of the officer known to the inquiry as hn33
00:20:15 hn33 yes hn33 served on the SDS between 1983 and
00:20:20 and 1986 she used the cover name Lee bonser there is a restriction order in place preventing the publication of her real name and she has provided the inquiry with a witness statement
00:20:32 with a witness statement hn33 was deployed primarily to report on the greenham common women's peace camp but joined a group called lambuth women for peace and reported on that group for around 3
00:20:41 around 3 years although hn33 was targeted into greenham common women she states that through infiltrating Lambeth women for
00:20:52 through infiltrating Lambeth women for peace a support group for the peace Camp she was able to report on the camp without living there permanently hn33 join special branch in the early
00:21:02 the early 1980s she first remembers hearing about the SDS whilst she was on cquad hn33 states that she was working as a plain clothes officer at a CND demonstration when she was asked by a
00:21:13 demonstration when she was asked by a senior officer to approach a group of greenham women to find out whether they had plans to cause disruption h33 engaged with them and the next day was present when the women
00:21:28 next day was present when the women conducted a sit-down protest h33 called the office to report this shortly after this incident h33 recalls quote a superintendent possibly
00:21:41 recalls quote a superintendent possibly superintendent Neil asked to speak to me at our meeting he indicated that the Prime Minister wanted to know what the greenham women were doing and so he the superintendent was asking whether I would be interested in helping the police to find
00:21:57 police to find out h33 says she quickly agreed to do so it never occurred to her to say no h33 does not recall any formal interview for
00:22:08 does not recall any formal interview for the role and there were no visits to her home she was single at the time and she thinks that an SDS manager would have spoken to her about the impact of the role but she cannot remember that conversation she says that it may have been mentioned to her prior to
00:22:19 been mentioned to her prior to deployment that living on her own without a partner might have made it difficult for her to switch off after this type of work and she thinks that there may have been a concern from the s managers that she would not have any
00:22:33 managers that she would not have any emotional support at home hn33 says it did not occur to her that there was a concern about a single woman being in the
00:22:39 the role hn33 recalls that a period of time in the back office was spent getting an officer's Legend together she says she was the only officer waiting to be deployed in the back office whilst she
00:22:52 deployed in the back office whilst she was there and she remembers being privy to conversations between the other undercover officers at their weekly meetings she latched onto to their accounts from which she learned how to be an undercover
00:23:05 be an undercover officer hn33 has no recollection of having been shown the document informants who take part in crime or any tradecraft manual before her deployment she describes the training as quote
00:23:17 she describes the training as quote constant refreshing undercover officers would learn from fellow undercover officers and the SDS managers on the job hn33 does remember having some equal
00:23:29 job hn33 does remember having some equal opportunities training on the course she undertook on joining special branch and says that this covered gender equality training and may have covered race
00:23:38 equality h33 says it was left up to her judgment on how far she was to become involved in the private lives of those she met whilst un whilst deployed she felt it was acceptable to socialize with members of her Target group but not to
00:23:50 members of her Target group but not to stay overnight with them she thought her managers might have been concerned if she was going on holiday with them she does not think she was given any guidance or instruction on sexual relationships or what to do if you received legally privileged
00:24:01 received legally privileged information hn33 says that the general guidance was to avoid participating in criminal activity and to try not to get
00:24:12 criminal activity and to try not to get arrested although she does not remember anyone telling them not to encourage others to participate in crime hn33 had an understanding that this was not permitted she does not remember being told what to do if arrested but thought
00:24:24 told what to do if arrested but thought she should ring a phone number she would have been
00:24:25 have been given hn33 believed that generally it was understood that if you were arrested cases would never get as far as Court though she does not recall any specific advice on what would happen if they did
00:24:38 advice on what would happen if they did come to court or how they could prevent them from coming to court hn33 used a deceased child's identity the name being Katherine Leslie bonser the name of the deceased child
00:24:54 bonser the name of the deceased child was found at Somerset house a process she learned about whilst in the back office in the months before her deployment H3 3 created a cover background to her assumed identity that
00:25:06 background to her assumed identity that she had left an abusive husband left her friends and family behind and moved to South
00:25:06 South London this explained a lack of friends and family and meant she could avoid any interest in her from her Target group she did not use any features of the individual whose identity she used in
00:25:18 individual whose identity she used in her Legend and she did not visit places or people to prepare herself for living in her cover identity her cover employment involved working in an estate agents which gave gave her an opportunity to always be away from the
00:25:35 opportunity to always be away from the office hn33 had two cover accommodations that she organized herself neither accommodation was shared the only other place hn33 stayed whilst undercover was in a tent at greenham common on the weekends hn33 says this was quote very
00:25:51 weekends hn33 says this was quote very rarely probably only once or twice over my whole
00:25:57 deployment hent 33 describes having SDS meetings at the safe house twice a week on a regular basis and she described the discussions there as quote fairly light-hearted with little serious stuff discussed as a group if we did speak
00:26:08 discussed as a group if we did speak about our deployments generally it was kept quite light and we did not get into the nitty-gritty but we might have shared a story from which we could all learn hent 33's Life whilst undercover
00:26:21 learn hent 33's Life whilst undercover involved attending the twice weekly SDS meetings attending meetings or demonstrations two or three evenings a week and commonly also attending over the weekend
00:26:35 agent 33 says the primary task of undercover officers on the SDS was to identify public order issues and the details of those involved in the groups they
00:26:40 they infiltrated sometimes they were specifically asked to find out more information about certain individuals but there were no written instructions that she was aware of it was just verbal instruction given over the telephone when calling the
00:26:52 when calling the office hn33 says the members of the group that she went into were quote such an unknown to the police that I was expected to find as much information about them as I could and if they posed a risk to the public order the tasking
00:27:05 a risk to the public order the tasking came from the SDS back office either the DS di or DCI who themselves had probably had discussions with someone on C Squad hn33 also says that other than
00:27:16 Squad hn33 also says that other than fence cutting and entering the base at greenham common sit down protest at Mar at marches and demonstrations she didn't see any other particular public disorder during her deployment
00:27:34 during her deployment H and33 says that lamth women for peace would have regarded her as a member of the group and to a lesser extent the greenham common women would have considered her the same though there was no formal membership structure in either group it was the result of her finding
00:27:46 group it was the result of her finding an advert and attending a meeting of the lamth woman for peace group that led to her involvement with greenham common women h33 says she saw the advert in timeout or a local paper advertising a meeting for Lambeth women for peace and she recognized the association with
00:28:00 she recognized the association with greenham common women by reference to the women for peace meetings hn33 says of the group quote Lambeth women for peace were not looking to overthrow the government and so were not subversive they were against the
00:28:12 not subversive they were against the nuclear bombs and probably would have preferred a labor government I had some sympathy for their cause but they also represented a challenge to public disorder in their numbers and ability to cause
00:28:23 cause disruption I didn't know much about the group before attending their activities there their activities were always peaceful but I did form a view that they may be disruptive to public order and
00:28:37 may be disruptive to public order and the members were likely to undertake a si in or sit down protest which could cause
00:28:45 cause disruption in terms of criminality aside from the public order element the only criminality in the group was in their attempts to break into the base at greenham common and she goes on to say that she witnessed members of the group doing so on a number of
00:28:57 doing so on a number of occasions the inquiry holds reporting from this officer from June 1983 to November
00:28:58 November 1986 an hn33 says that this seems to accurately reflect her reporting on the SDS save for reports on a visit to a submarine base in Scotland and the actions that occurred there for which
00:29:12 actions that occurred there for which the reporting appears to be missing she also states that there's a gap in the intelligence reports attributed to her between 28th of June 1985 and the 13th of September 1985 and she believes that this may have been the result of her
00:29:24 this may have been the result of her taking a holiday though this doesn't explain the entirety of the Gap hn33 notes that in some of the intelligence reports she is listed as an attendee at meetings in her cover name and in others she is not hn33 says quote
00:29:39 and in others she is not hn33 says quote I suspect that the reason I appear as an attendee in some and not others was a ploy to ensure you could not tell who was reporting this information it was uncommon for the same people to be at all the meetings so if the reports
00:29:51 all the meetings so if the reports always listed one person in all of the meetings someone reading the reports might be able to figure out that I was the source
00:30:01 hn33 says that in relation to her reporting she reported what she observed and it was for someone else to filter it and decide it's
00:30:13 and decide it's relevance hn33 says quote I would report most actions I.E the group going out to do something it could be a matter of public order no matter how small there may not have been violence but there may have been disruption so I reported it for someone else to consider the appropriate police
00:30:25 appropriate police response the inquiry holds a report dated the 13th of July 1984 which refers to hn33 facilitating a meeting of the Lambeth women for peace hn33 described this as involving trying to ensure
00:30:38 this as involving trying to ensure everyone at the meeting had a chance to say
00:30:39 say something the inquiry holds a report dated the 28th of October 1983 where hn33 provided the bank details of the
00:30:52 hn33 provided the bank details of the group group greenham women against crws she cannot say how she came to obtain the bank
00:30:56 the bank details second report dated the 13th of April 1984 described three women including hn33 in her cover name as being prominent in the organization of
00:31:08 being prominent in the organization of the London Office of the greenham common women but hn33 suggests that this might have been exaggeration by the back office she does not think she influenced the actions of the group in that role but also cannot really remember being in the
00:31:16 the role a report dated the 28th of September 1984 named h33 in her cover name as one of the seven signatories for a bank account for the greenham common
00:31:32 a bank account for the greenham common women's peace camp hn33 does not recall how or when she came to be a signatory to the bank account nor whether there was any discussion with the SDS as to whether to become involved in that way she says it may have been useful intelligence for special Branch hn33 regularly reported on
00:31:47 Branch hn33 regularly reported on individuals including information such as addresses telephone numbers employment relationship status and vehicle details she doesn't know how she obtained details such as telephone numbers and addresses but says that
00:31:58 numbers and addresses but says that people would often have given their phone number to her or have invited her around to their house and thereby she would obtain the address hn33 says that the information built a picture about an individual and
00:32:10 built a picture about an individual and could enable special Branch to consider the risks an individual posed or to rule the individual out of their
00:32:23 the individual out of their inquiries there is no evidence that hn33 engaged in any sexual relationships whilst
00:32:28 whilst undercover hn33 says she did not form an especially close Bond with anyone individual in her Target group hn33 says that the only time she participated in criminal activity during
00:32:39 participated in criminal activity during her deployment was on one occasion where she participated in a trespass of the greenham common air air base alongside many
00:32:47 many others she did not cut the fence but she felt it would have been noticed if she had not entered the base when everyone else was doing so h33 was never arrested or charged with a criminal offense while serving as an undercover officer nor was she a witness in any criminal
00:33:01 she a witness in any criminal proceedings in her undercover identity hn33 was involved in a minor road traffic accident and she exchanged her cover identity and cover address with the other
00:33:12 driver h33 does not recall being given much information on how to deal with legally privileged material she does not believe she ever received or became aware of Legally privileged information while she deployed and she says of the intelligence reports she submitted on
00:33:28 intelligence reports she submitted on the solicitor Jane Hickman that it quote never crossed my mind that might hear information subject to Legal privilege h33 states that she did not see any subversive activity during her deployment she thought her reporting
00:33:42 deployment she thought her reporting would have been provided to the security service as she understood that that was standard practice for special Branch material at that time she would generally provide handwritten reports to the SDS office weekly though at times there would be multiple
00:33:57 reports in around June 1986 hn33 was redeployed to report on the Socialist Workers Party she thinks that Lambeth women for peace had started to slow down their activities and some had drifted away or that the SDS managers had decided the deployment was no longer necessary she
00:34:10 deployment was no longer necessary she says that the peace movement had changed and was less focused on greenham common she moved to the Socialist Workers Party but did not really get close to anyone in that group and was not involved with
00:34:23 in that group and was not involved with it long enough to be invited to become a member only attending a few meetings over the course of a couple of months her withdrawal was strategy from Lamberth women for peace included the
00:34:34 Lamberth women for peace included the scenario that she was leaving the UK to immigrate to Australia the deployment into the Socialist Workers Party was brought to a close after a few months as the SDS manag management had decided to downsize the squad agent 33 says there was no
00:34:46 squad agent 33 says there was no long-term effect on her or her family's welfare from working on the C SDS she remembers mentoring one officer in the mentoring scheme she does not think that the Metropolitan Police Service had a great deal of support or Welfare
00:34:57 great deal of support or Welfare Services of available for undercover officers but she did not need it and so she did not seek it
00:35:10 she did not seek it out h33 says that in the grand scheme of things she does not think her reporting contributed much to policing but that what she did provide was useful and allowed good policing of the activities she was involved in but she does not think that the police could have obtained the information she did without the use of undercover police
00:35:22 the use of undercover police officers thank you sir thank you very much Mr James I'm sorry to not to have um recognized that it was you who was
00:35:33 um recognized that it was you who was going to start I apologize um May I just add one thing to what to the very helpful summary that you've read um hn33 is reporting her contemporaneous reporting um shows that she produced
00:35:44 reporting um shows that she produced regular reports on the plans of London women's peace groups for demonstrations in London and they were invariably
00:35:55 in London and they were invariably peaceful I think that's a a reasonable summary of um that aspect of of her reporting yes sir I'd agree thank you yes
00:36:01 yes M sir this is a summary of the evidence of the officer known to The Inquirer hn
00:36:12 of the officer known to The Inquirer hn 88 hn 88 was deployed between September 1983 and November 1986 into a geographical area Hackney and Stoke Newington rather than towards a particular group there is a
00:36:25 a particular group there is a restriction order over his real name his cover identity was that of a deceased child Timothy Spence he has provided a witness statement to the inquiry but has declined to give live evidence and cannot be compelled to do so as he lives
00:36:38 cannot be compelled to do so as he lives abroad h88 states that he was approached by Bob Po Potter to join the SDS and was then interviewed by an SDS inspector he
00:36:51 then interviewed by an SDS inspector he thought it sounded like a thrilling once in a lifetime opportunity and he remembers a home visit to him and his wife which provided them with sufficient information about the Practical impact of the role hn8 describes a significant
00:37:08 of the role hn8 describes a significant increase in his income whilst on the SDS as a result of overtime during his time in the back office hn8 met with current uos and received guidance from the SDS managers
00:37:27 received guidance from the SDS managers but no formal training he had access to a binder containing guidance on how to research a deceased child's identity from which h88 did not feel able to depart hn 88 states he drove around the
00:37:40 depart hn 88 states he drove around the child's birth town for general knowledge but did not research or investigate the family h88 used a close contact as his girlfriend which he States provided an excuse not to get involved in a
00:37:51 excuse not to get involved in a relationship an explanation for time spent out of the field and an exit strategy h88 took her to his cover accommodation a couple of times but she was never introduced to his
00:38:09 was never introduced to his groups he was given no specific guidance on sexual relationships while deployed but States it was obvious to him as a police officer that it would be unacceptable h88 also states that it was obvious to him that it would not be
00:38:20 obvious to him that it would not be acceptable to commit criminal offenses that were any more serious than fly posting or obstruction hn 88 arranged cover employment as a van driver and he had a van which he used to drive
00:38:35 van which he used to drive activists hn 88 understood that he was tasked by DCI short to report on the Hackney Stoke Newington area as it was quote a hot bed of activity that might lead to public order issues end
00:38:49 lead to public order issues end quote if people came onto his radar they were within the remit of his General tasking and he was never told to stop or start reporting on any particular group or campaign
00:39:06 or campaign hn 88 describes Hackney campaign against the police bill was his Focus which was campaigning against the police and criminal evidence Bill and wider policing issues in Hackney he would have been seen as a formal member many of their public meetings attracted a small number of activists it later became
00:39:22 number of activists it later became Hackney police monitoring group and h88 was one of eight active members but states he only acted as a follower not a leader h88 reported on a number of other
00:39:35 leader h88 reported on a number of other police monitoring and anti-racist groups including the East London campaign against the police bill which later became East London campaign against racist attacks and police
00:39:48 racist attacks and police harassment the London campaign against the police bill and the national campaign against the police Bill h88 reported on meetings concerning matters such as police presence in
00:40:02 matters such as police presence in schools criticism of the police and mass pickets at courts police stations and public houses on one occasion he reported a discussion about coordinating attacks on racists h88 also reported on speeches
00:40:15 racists h88 also reported on speeches made by members of parliament at events and details of individuals including their employment foreign travel and on one instance their sexuality hn 88 began reporting on
00:40:29 sexuality hn 88 began reporting on campaign for nuclear disarmament in February
00:40:34 February 1984 when he formerly joined Hackney CND and continued until the end of his deployment h88 recalls traveling to greenham Common possibly for cruise
00:40:52 greenham Common possibly for cruise watch and took part in a CND walk around molesworth RAF base he became Secretary of Hackney CND and a signatory of the Hackney CND bank accounts h88 also attended meetings and events of London region CND as a representative of Hackney CND he
00:41:07 representative of Hackney CND he attended and reported on the 1985 CND National
00:41:08 National Conference he provided various documents from Trade union CND and some reports on Hackney youth CND and Stoke Newington
00:41:20 Hackney youth CND and Stoke Newington CND such as their Easter action in March in
00:41:26 in 1984 h88 states that he did not consider the groups on which he reported to be subversive he considered his deployment was public order focused however the
00:41:39 was public order focused however the groups were in fact no great threat to public order they engaged in minor criminality such as fly posting he witnessed marches that would not have been notified to the police in advance obstruction of the highway and pickets outside police
00:41:53 pickets outside police stations some groups attracted speakers that advocated direct action and occasionally there was a risk of Confrontation between opposing groups however h88 States this never
00:42:05 however h88 States this never materialized and he recalls only shouting and insulting Behavior h88 had three near compromises during his deployment but there were no consequences to these incidents he
00:42:16 consequences to these incidents he expects he discussed them with his managers he was involved in four road traffic collisions and on each occasion used his cover name and address
00:42:27 used his cover name and address h88 recalls that on a couple of
00:42:37 h88 recalls that on a couple of occasions he was pulled over for driving through a red light or a stop sign and was given a ticket h88 maintained his cover and assumes his managers quote smoothed over end quote the tickets by liasing with the local police station and no further action was
00:42:50 and no further action was taken there is no evidence to suggest he had a sexual relationship in his cover identity he was involved in fly posting
00:43:01 identity he was involved in fly posting and potential obstruction of the highway but he was never arrested and did not appear in
00:43:02 appear in court h88 recalls the commissioner sir Kenneth Newman visiting the SDS premises and congratulating all the
00:43:15 and congratulating all the uos h88 considered the informal welfare monitoring whilst in the field was sufficient for him he did not need to use the very informal welfare support from the SDS office following his withdrawal however he he does consider
00:43:33 withdrawal however he he does consider that the SDS had a long-term effect on his welfare for example in the years after he found himself lying unnecessarily and he believes it contributed to his eventual divorce he comments that seeing how the police treated him whilst in his
00:43:47 police treated him whilst in his undercover identity made him rethink his commitment to policing so that's the summary of hn8 thank you very much indeed um we're now going to hear the live evidence of hn 65 um I think I will rise Mally to permit
00:44:03 um I think I will rise Mally to permit him and Mr bar who is going to question him to come into the hearing
00:44:26 room
00:49:25 e e
00:50:25 and before this witness is sworn uh those um following our proceedings on the live stream will hear only audio uh broadcasting and not video broadcasting that is not a mistake it is a deliberate decision
00:50:43 yes repat the words after me I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence
00:50:57 evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing about the truth nothing but the
00:51:06 truth are you the witness that we know as hn 65 I am sir you've provided two witness statements to the inquiry the
00:51:22 witness statements to the inquiry the first dated the 4th of November 2019 and the second a voluntary statement the first dated the 1st of March 2023 are the contents of those two witness statements true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief
00:51:36 of your knowledge and belief yes can I uh start with your service before you joined uh the SDS what can you recall being taught by special
00:51:54 you recall being taught by special Branch about reporting on members of parliament
00:52:05 it wasn't clear but there was an indication that you wouldn't treat them as you would treat anybody else you reporting on you wouldn't
00:52:15 automatically put them in reports and if you did it would only be if they were taking a leading role in the larger event that you were reporting on and that as such they didn't have there were
00:52:27 that as such they didn't have there were not there were no record files available on them so so in theory we weren't keeping
00:52:32 keeping records um was any guidance given about other elected
00:52:43 representatives not that I'm aware of um you served on cquad uh before joining the SDS at some
00:52:57 cquad uh before joining the SDS at some point yes I did when you did so did you have any role in preparing threat assessments no did you know oh might I come back indirectly by some reporting I might have done which
00:53:09 some reporting I might have done which Finds Its way into a threat assessment yes but not directly preparing the assessment itself thank you I understand um were you able to tell what
00:53:20 um were you able to tell what intelligence was coming to you from the SDS or not you had a pretty good idea it was coming from a secret
00:53:32 idea it was coming from a secret Source from an from a from the the SDS I wasn't absolutely 100% sure at the time because we had Intelligence coming from other sources secret sources and I was probably too June at that stage to know
00:53:47 probably too June at that stage to know it but I was I was vaguely aware of SDS and that some reports did get into our files I don't want you to give any details in answer to this question but were you in a position to form a view as to how useful
00:54:01 to how useful SDS intelligence was to see squads work at that
00:54:03 at that time it was integral but how how relatively how useful I I know I couldn't form an
00:54:14 couldn't form an opinion whilst working for C Squad did you form an understanding of what
00:54:28 you form an understanding of what special Branch was interested in so far as the extreme left wing was concerned yes and did that include the campaign for nuclear
00:54:38 disarmament not really at the time because when I was on C Squad they were not very active so that they hadn't really come into my range of vision I think you also worked on C Squad at a at a stage after you'd sered that's correct in
00:54:53 that's correct in the um was CND of interest to C Squad at that
00:54:57 that stage um probably was reaching the end of being interesting I and and wood special branch have regarded CND as extreme
00:55:05 extreme left um I think the view on CN D changed as the years passed by I think initially
00:55:20 as the years passed by I think initially from the early days it was considered to be a problem a problem of public order um particularly the committee of 100 it went through a Karma period and and then with the arrival of cruise missiles or the imminent arrival of
00:55:35 missiles or the imminent arrival of cruise missiles Etc into the country it took on more interest again because it was a real concern that there were people who sympathized with CND who might take some active role in preventing or trying to prevent those missiles arriving and being um operated
00:55:50 missiles arriving and being um operated within our system within our country and by that stage you were serving in the SDS um yes yes we'll come back back to
00:56:02 SDS um yes yes we'll come back back to that in a moment did you learn whilst um in special Branch before the SDS how to how to write intelligence reports in the special Branch house style
00:56:21 style yes and did that style change when you were reporting in the SDS or not not really
00:56:23 really no you tell us that you came
00:56:38 no you tell us that you came to um join the SDS after having been if I use a colloquialism tapped up uh by the officer we know as hn1
00:56:48 hn1 126 and you've said that he said to you that being married with Children quote is what brings you home could you expand on that please he
00:57:00 home could you expand on that please he was referring I believe to the selection process and there was there was a concern I believe that when you're so integrated into your
00:57:11 that when you're so integrated into your groups that you could go inverted commas native and the idea that you had a family to come back to would be something that would keep your feet
00:57:22 something that would keep your feet firmly on the ground um could you help us with what is meant by going native that
00:57:26 that um because you lived in Social ize with them that you might perhaps be over sympathetic and lose lose your sense of
00:57:42 perspective was there any concern uh that uh there there might be a risk of sexual activity in your undercover identity and that being married with Children might act as a
00:57:56 Children might act as a deterent I'm not sure that's why that's why they preferred married people but yes it would act as in deterrent uh you told uh officers from operation Hearn that you thought it would be exciting to join the
00:58:13 would be exciting to join the SDS could you expand a little on why you thought that and what you meant by
00:58:21 that from from when I first joined the police at the police section house I was at there were two officers who did early SDS work and I was absolutely intrigued those at that stage they were not
00:58:33 those at that stage they were not separated away so much from from the police service so they would actually come back to the section house having done their work and it fascinated me I
00:58:45 done their work and it fascinated me I thought how exciting to to actually be doing undercover work and yes it was excitement a potential excitement for it was the SDS seen as something very special yes it was
00:58:57 special yes it was now you tell us in your evidence that you were spoken to by DCI Ferguson and Di
00:59:12 Di buler um when they spoke to you before you joined did they explore the importance of resilience at
00:59:22 all not really not that I recall um would you expand on that if you well I I'm really asking uh whether they were asking you any questions about how you would cope undercover um yes I suppose they would
00:59:36 undercover um yes I suppose they would have they would have asked that but more specific I couldn't be on uh you tell us that they they they referred to the importance of family life can you help us a little with what was said about that and
00:59:48 was said about that and why um very much what we've covered already that it was there was a need it kept you balanced it kept you anchored in
00:59:59 in reality rather than
01:00:07 than falling foul to the dangers of being turned really I suppose by the organization that you ENT into was anything said to you at that stage um about sexual activity undercover no no
01:00:24 about sexual activity undercover no no no you tell us that um they visited your wife uh at a time when you weren't present is that right yes um why did
01:00:36 present is that right yes um why did they visit your wife I think they wanted to know how she felt about me doing it and they would have explained to her that the hours were antisocial and that there would be some
01:00:47 antisocial and that there would be some impact on our private life and what did she tell you about that meeting just that just what I've said
01:00:55 said um you then start working the the back off office did you help with the production of intelligence reports during that period that wasn't my role but I would have helped if it got busy but um it wasn't my
01:01:07 but um it wasn't my role and did you become familiar with who was operational at the time and the
01:01:20 who was operational at the time and the targets they were infiltrating yes I on a weekly basis I would meet twet with them um how useful did you find attending the safe house as preparation for your own deployment oh extremely extremely useful it was the main source
01:01:36 extremely useful it was the main source of of information for what I Wasing for can I take it from that that you had good access to the undercover officers oh yes I I could have I could have met them at any time it didn't have to be at
01:01:49 them at any time it didn't have to be at those meetings if I'd wanted to did they give you any tips and guidance about what to do if you were
01:01:58 arrested I can't think specifically I'm I'm we must have discussed it and we must have touched on it um but the specific I have I have in the back of my
01:02:09 specific I have I have in the back of my mind that firstly that you shouldn't get arrested for anything serious but that there would be a process that the office would go through to take care of it and that would be perhaps talking to the magistrate or
01:02:20 perhaps talking to the magistrate or there was a process but what that was and how it was going to pan out I didn't know I think the message was don't get arrested unless you can really help it
01:02:32 arrested unless you can really help it and were you given any um an assistance as to whether to stay in your cover Identity or not if arrested initially you were told stay in your cover identity and inform the office as soon as
01:02:46 as possible were you given any um advice or guidance
01:02:51 guidance about committing crimes yourself in your undercover identity um if if it to avoid it where possible but if it were inevitable that something was
01:03:06 if it were inevitable that something was going to happen like fly posting then it should be as minor as possible and you should take the minimum role in it that you could for example with fly posting I
01:03:17 you could for example with fly posting I used to drive around and the guy with me would do most of the posting so so it was trying to keep us as far away from as you could without obviously not doing it
01:03:30 it uh were you given any advice and guidance about how to deal with activists
01:03:32 activists NOP no not I can think of was was anything said um about the possibility of sexual advances being
01:03:44 possibility of sexual advances being made there was there was a discussion with um my colleague who introduced me in the first place 126 I believe it is
01:03:59 in the first place 126 I believe it is yeah yeah there was a discuss with him about the fact that I think I can mention his name somebody's been compromised I well I thought had been compromised because it had a sexual relationship which had got female
01:04:19 relationship which had got female activists more interested in him and the research on that had revealed his death certificate this Richard CL so yeah so so they had it his story had unfolded because of relationship with women now I know that wasn't the case but the salutary lesson was be aware
01:04:33 but the salutary lesson was be aware that people the closer you get to people the more the more they want to know about you and the more they'll dig into your past you so so that was that was how it came up yeah so your understand your understanding was that Richard
01:04:44 your understanding was that Richard Clark had formed a sexual relationship with an activist that was what I was led to believe he never told me that and I was a good friend of mine but he never told me that but that's what let believe and what was your view of that
01:05:01 and what was your view of that conduct um surprised to begin with quite frankly
01:05:02 frankly um I don't know I'm I'm I'm in two minds about it I mean it's something it's something that everybody fears when they go out is how
01:05:13 everybody fears when they go out is how far do you go with any friendships with the people you're dealing with it's it's a it's a very difficult world you live in a world of lies and it's not easy to do and it's not pleasant to do and one
01:05:28 do and it's not pleasant to do and one can understand that one could let one's guard
01:05:32 guard slip and how could you expand on that how would that
01:05:39 happen by becoming too friendly with people you know of both sexes not just not just sexually of both sexes you it
01:05:50 not just sexually of both sexes you it was very hard it was one of the problems I had when I first started when in my firstart first flat I had people kept knocking on my door is almost are you going to come out and
01:06:01 almost are you going to come out and play and it was constant and you could feel the pressure on you to the point that I moved away so I could keep some sort of distance because I could already feel I mean I we went to
01:06:14 feel I mean I we went to glastenbury um and you could just see that before you know it when you're going in long train rides or on car rides car Journeys and you start
01:06:33 talking the problem with undercover is for every lie you tell you got to tell a hundred more lies so you try and keep everything as close to the truth as possible and you try and avoid intimate one-to-one conversations as much as you
01:06:44 one-to-one conversations as much as you can in any shape or form did you discuss these pressures with your fellow undercover officers I think I think we almost all felt that sorry that wasn't quite the question I was asking did you did you did you discuss
01:06:56 did you did you discuss um those pressures with your colleagues it may be from your answer probably will yeah I'm sort of assuming that that's
01:07:08 yeah I'm sort of assuming that that's something we would have talked about but specific conversations with specific people I really can't remember I honestly
01:07:13 honestly can't and was there any uh did any view emerge as to how you dealt with
01:07:20 them no I think with SDS everyone was their own sort of guide really they you you listen to everybody else and then you set your own course
01:07:31 else and then you set your own course having listened to everybody else so so there wasn't a there was no instruction book and no this is how you do it this
01:07:42 book and no this is how you do it this is what you do do this is what you don't do there were General guidelines there been some talk about a book in the back office that you could refer to and apparently there were guidelines later on or an instruction book in my time there was I was told
01:07:55 book in my time there was I was told there were things in the back office a folder that you could look at and it was literally a Loosely folder with scraps of paper in it where people who' been in SDS put down their Recollections and
01:08:07 SDS put down their Recollections and their experiences and it was sort of that's going to be a mine of information for you and quite frankly I got through the first three and didn't bother reading the rest because it was of no use to me whatsoever all it did was they
01:08:20 use to me whatsoever all it did was they talked about the groups they were in and as I wasn't going in those groups it wasn't of any relevance to me I got far more from
01:08:26 more from casual discussions with individual officers and I talk with all of them at some stage over a period of time and then gleaned from what they told me and
01:08:39 then gleaned from what they told me and took out what I thought was valuable and dismissed what I didn't think was valuable was there any guidance from the SDS managers about how you dealt with these
01:08:48 these interpersonal pressures
01:09:02 um I'm not sure I actually Ever Raised it with them did they proactively raise it with there was one with you I can give you a name well I call
01:09:23 something he was the D yeah I've got it yeah I his cover name well is yeah hn 68 hn 68 was the DI he had done it and he was probably the go-to person if I was anything I needed to
01:09:37 needed to know about something that I wasn't sure of that I didn't have in my mind he's the person I would go to to ask what did
01:09:49 the person I would go to to ask what did you do what would you do he are probably the most the most the wisest of us okay um but apart from someone you could go to was there any active guidance coming from management about how to deal with interpersonal
01:10:10 pressures you were always told if you've got a problem come to us it wasn't a closed door it was always open door um I think when you're doing that half of it is pride would stop you from doing that unless it was something pretty
01:10:26 serious I think you'd feel You' failed a bit if you needed to
01:10:36 go I'm getting the sense from your evidence that if each officer was to be his own
01:10:38 his own guide
01:10:40 guide um a lot
01:10:43 um a lot depends in terms of propriety on the moral character of the officer is that fair
01:10:57 yes well say there any discussion
01:11:08 discussion about as a what as a lawyer I would call trespass but in reality means entering people's private homes whilst an undercover
01:11:14 officer no was there any discussion about the circumstances in which you might take or copy confidential documents
01:11:38 no moving away from conversations about how to do the job what was the atmosphere like at the meetings it varied from meeting to
01:11:49 meetings it varied from meeting to meeting it was it was to some extent there was business to be done and there was a social aspect to it as well probably about
01:12:01 probably about 50/50 was an opportunity to meet with other to actually be yourself um and did generally people get on was there was there a good social
01:12:14 on was there was there a good social side to it generally yes yes there were a lot of different characters there wasn't one model sure um and in terms of conversation was there much
01:12:27 conversation was there much banter there is throughout the police unfortunately and would that involve talking about women sometimes in those days
01:12:34 days yes uh and would it talk about involve talk about women in the way that women were talked about in those
01:12:53 days talking let me be clear about this when talk when we're talking about women we're not talking about our targets now we're just talking about women generally yes there's plenty of that yes but it
01:13:04 yes there's plenty of that yes but it was kept at that we didn't really talk very much about our individual groups that we were infiltrating um did the
01:13:24 atmosphere
01:34:52 e e
01:35:39 I have um signed an order to this effect um there will be no disclosure or publication made of the information stated during today's hearing between the times 11:06 and
01:35:50 the times 11:06 and 11:07 on the topic of the name then mentioned the order does not prohibit disclosure to members of the inquiry
01:36:08 team but it is a strict prohibition on further disclosure Beyond this
01:36:19 room because I know everyone has been kept in the room I've been asked if I will rise for a short period to permit a natural break I would of course do so um the uh transcriber will uh have his
01:36:38 the uh transcriber will uh have his break um or has had his break now and it will continue a little longer can I say to you please don't worry about this these things do happen they have happened before we've dealt with them before and we will deal with them on this occasion thanks
01:36:52 sir
01:49:21 e e
01:50:10 Mr thank you sir hn 65 uh we were in Manchester uh what were you hoping to get from the visit um a general
01:50:21 get from the visit um a general understanding of the area perhaps pick up a few points that I could raise if needed to be like landmarks or things that were close by just just anything
01:50:32 that were close by just just anything that would sort of Bo booster or bolster
01:50:44 that would sort of Bo booster or bolster my um my cover story did you investigate the deceased child's family at all no I I I the address I got the address from his birth certificate and death certificate and that's all that's all I went and focused on uh did you or the
01:50:55 went and focused on uh did you or the office cause any investigations to be carried out by the local special branch no I didn't anyway I don't know the office did but I
01:51:10 the office did but I didn't can I move back now to Richard Clark yes and what you were told about his having been confronted with the death certificate of the child whose identity he had adopted
01:51:20 adopted um did
01:51:23 um did that um
01:51:30 that um anecdote cause you to be concerned that the same might happen to you absolutely there was there was a fear that goes with you all the time of
01:51:43 fear that goes with you all the time of being exposed so yes without a shut of a doubt so that's something you had to have a story for before it happened rather than be confronted with it and have to make something up at the time and well you've anticipated my next
01:51:54 and well you've anticipated my next question did you have a story ready yes I did yes I did uh was that it it was only temporary um was that something uh that you did of your own valtion or
01:52:06 that you did of your own valtion or without mentioning any names was that something that you were advised by somebody else to have prepared no I think it was something I did for myself I didn't discuss it with the office I just did
01:52:22 just did it um did you or your managers make any
01:52:31 make any preparations regarding the family of the diseased child in the event that the death certificate was produced by the activists you were
01:52:42 infiltrating sorry well you have told us that you had a story prepared if you were challenged but if your cover was blown was any thought
01:52:55 blown was any thought given to to the family of the deceased child I don't know whether the office might have done I don't think anything was prepared in advance for that my my my preparations were purely to get me
01:53:08 my preparations were purely to get me through short term to get me out of the situation I would have been in and then I would have vanished
01:53:20 vanished um did you give any consideration to the family in those circumstances
01:53:26 no because I really didn't think that it would ever
01:53:32 happen um moving now to the line that you prepared to avoid romantic commitment
01:53:49 prepared to avoid romantic commitment you've told us in your witness statement uh that you had a back story that your girlfriend had died and you were not ready for a romantic relationship yes um what prompted you to develop that line I
01:54:00 line I suppose the fear that you're going to become friendly with these people and you needed something in case you know the the were approaches from men as well
01:54:17 the the were approaches from men as well you know you needed something to explain why why you weren't interested really did the what you'd been told about Richard Clark um play any part in your concocting this
01:54:36 story yes I suppose yes it did and being careful about names did anyone advise you to prepare this sort of
01:54:41 cover no not
01:54:50 specifically 126 was a person who raised it with me first
01:54:52 first but it was literally only in conversation he was just saying stay
01:55:05 conversation he was just saying stay away from relationships because they're problems and he used that to as as like they were for Rick um when your Legend was tested before you deployed did you make your
01:55:16 before you deployed did you make your managers aware that um a girlfriend who
01:55:33 managers aware that um a girlfriend who died died was part of your backstory and why she was fictitious to start with so was I didn't think it was necessary there wasn't there was no person involved it was it was a figment of my imagination that's not what I'm driving at I'm just driving at did you tell your managers that you'd done that I'm not
01:55:45 managers that you'd done that I'm not sure I'm not sure I don't think I was heavily tested on my
01:55:50 background I mean really what I'm driving at is whether your managers wanted to know whether you had this sort of protection or not I don't think we discussed
01:56:04 discussed it was your Legend ever tested by CND to your
01:56:05 your knowledge no or Carl
01:56:11 Carl no
01:56:24 no um at the end of your deployment did you return the cover documents that you had yes were you require to do so I don't know I just did I can't remember that I was very glad it was like peeling off a layer of skin it was quite nice to get rid of everything um so I didn't need any
01:56:37 everything um so I didn't need any encouragement moving to a different topic the importance of keeping the existence of the SDS
01:56:50 existence of the SDS secret presumably you knew that that was important yes could you help us again being careful with names about how you knew
01:57:10 that I I it was it was a view held throughout SDS through the management through everybody in the branch effectively to the point that I knew before well I I didn't know what SDS was totally before
01:57:23 didn't know what SDS was totally before I joined it I had an idea I knew it was undercover and so on but I didn't know the full full relevance of it but it was something that was kept very secret within our own Branch you didn't tell there were a lot of guys in who were in
01:57:38 there were a lot of guys in who were in the branch at the time when I was there who never knew that I did SDS because that just wasn't something you talked about were you given any instructions about what to do if compromised
01:57:55 no no I don't think I was did you ever get the sense that it was extremely important that if you were compromised to keep the existence of the SDS secret oh
01:58:13 yes can we move now to your deployment itself um your early reports are about the campaign against racist laws can can you help us with how it came to pass
01:58:26 you help us with how it came to pass that that was a group that you first reported on it wasn't the group of I first got involved with
01:58:39 first got involved with um when I when I went out I was targeted towards the
01:58:51 ing that didn't exist anymore it was disintegrating and going in all sorts of directions I leared that but I also came close to another group a
01:59:03 also came close to another group a splinter group from them who were active in the campaign against racist laws so it was effectively targeting that group who were
01:59:12 who were using the Carl campaign as a tool that took me to the campaign against racist laws
01:59:27 laws meeting uh that CLE yes it is being careful about names who was it who directed you to the
01:59:36 IMG yeah that was the Chief Inspector and the inspector at the time the one whose name I shouldn't have said should I get his number for you uh you don't need his number but the um
01:59:56 you don't need his number but the um the8 the Chief Inspector 68 hnc 68 and his Chief Inspector and who was the Chief Inspector well I'm not sure whether he's shown down here either but I don't think he was never undercover so he's probably not I can write his name down and then you can
02:00:09 write his name down and then you can decide should I do that yeah is that better
02:00:20 please he's already given evidence to this hearing actually
02:00:28 thank you I don't think there's any problem about the name but uh Mr bar no I didn't think so thank you yes we can use that
02:00:41 think so thank you yes we can use that name i d i d do anymore without checking very wise take that precaution DCI Butler
02:00:47 uh what was Management's reaction to the fact that you were reporting on Carl um they knew that I was only using that to get at the organization so they were they just
02:00:58 organization so they were they just accepted that it would be the same as if I was targeting the swp and the swp were running something for the labor party when you say organization is are we talking about the league for socialist
02:01:11 talking about the league for socialist action or are we talking about something league for socialist action yes yes that was what I was looking at I wasn't looking at campaign against racist laws I was absolutely dumbfounded when a couple of months after I'd been
02:01:25 when a couple of months after I'd been to the meeting that you're talking about there I noticed a massive demonstration in London because I just thought it was something that they had designed and
02:01:38 something that they had designed and made up just as a recruitment vehicle so nobody was more surprised than me to find out that it was actually quite a large
02:01:46 large organization I see now even though you were
02:01:47 were using Carl as a a route into another group you still filed reports about Carl well it was a Carl meeting a Carl
02:01:59 well it was a Carl meeting a Carl meeting organized by the league for socialist action so that wasn't Central car they That Wasn't So you you're going
02:02:13 car they That Wasn't So you you're going to ask me I'd imagine about secretary or well we're going to come to a a number of the reports at this stage really what I driving at is was that accepted SDS practice at the time that you would report on on a group in those
02:02:28 report on on a group in those circumstances yes if you were targeting a different group you'd go where they went and you would report on them yeah so perhaps we can start by looking at
02:02:42 so perhaps we can start by looking at some of the reports so the first one is a file to tab C7 for the projection is 16568
02:03:03 um and if we could start by seeing the date of that report that's the 1st of April
02:03:04 April 1981 Y and paragraph 2 it says on Sunday the 29th of March 1981 at 2 p.m at Brant Road Community Center Station Road
02:03:19 Road Community Center Station Road woodgreen n22 a conference involving all London labor parties to took place to
02:03:30 London labor parties to took place to discuss the campaign against racist laws about F 40 people were present at paragraph
02:03:35 paragraph three says despite the title of the conference it can be categorically stated that the conference was organized by and for the benefit of the league for socialist action perhaps I can stop
02:03:52 socialist action perhaps I can stop there um paragraph two looks like we've got a report about the London labor
02:04:03 got a report about the London labor parties but for what you go on to say in paragraph three would you have regarded that as a
02:04:04 that as a problem um I probably didn't think about at the time now you mention it of course because we don't report on labor party meetings but it wasn't a labor party
02:04:16 meetings but it wasn't a labor party meeting yeah and front meeting you're at pains to say that in I say that quite clearly than the next paragraph um and then if if you go to paragraph four y
02:04:28 then if if you go to paragraph four y privacy National Secretary of Carl and a member of the league for socialist action address the meeting first he spoke at some length about the necessity of taking the campaign into the labor movement laying particular emphasis on the role that the labor party could
02:04:43 the role that the labor party could play um that that suggests and tell me
02:04:54 play um that that suggests and tell me if I'm wrong but that suggests that Carl and with the league for socialist action behind them is is there some entryism into the labor party going on
02:05:11 here by whom well you were there I wasn't is some is is somebody trying to enter the labor party yeah Lee foro actioner absolutely and um that's why I stopped reporting on them later and and can you develop
02:05:22 can you develop that answer why what was the problem well the problem was that we don't we don't we don't do entryism into the labor party the branch is that's an
02:05:37 labor party the branch is that's an absolute taboo and did the labor party is off limits now was this a decision that you made yourself or was this a decision you made in discussion with your manager well I think it's something we're all generally aware of but I would have gone back and discussed that in fact I did go back and discuss that and
02:05:53 fact I did go back and discuss that and it wasn't long after this and it was DEC decided that I could no longer Target league for soci Action because a large part of their strategy was entryism into the labor party which
02:06:04 was entryism into the labor party which would have meant that if I'd stayed with him I'd have been doing entryism in the labor party which we would don't do could we look at paragraph five now please
02:06:21 y the final speaker was John Tilly MP who outlined the action taken by the labor party to oppose the bill following this speech the floor was invited to put
02:06:32 this speech the floor was invited to put questions to the speakers and John Tilly was continually attacked by members of the audience for the past record of the labor party on racism and the
02:06:43 labor party on racism and the unwillingness of MPS to implement labor policies on immigration despite persistent questioning he was unable to categorically state that a government would withdraw any nationality Act
02:06:57 would withdraw any nationality Act passed in the future he blamed this on the intransigence of civil
02:07:06 servants yep so you are there uh at least
02:07:10 least outlining What A Member of Parliament has said and the response uh to his speech what was the reaction of your managers to your doing that
02:07:31 I honestly it was was not brought up or mentioned it's walking a tight route there I I concede that that there's an MP and I'm reporting what an MP is saying but we have
02:07:44 saying but we have always as far as I'm aware in our Branch if we if we go to rallies or meetings and MPS address it we we would put the gist of it in the
02:07:55 gist of it in the report but it wouldn't be a report on the MP it would be a report on the meeting so would it be fair to say that
02:08:06 meeting so would it be fair to say that you were doing what was expected of you yes um can we go over the page to paragraph 7
02:08:15 please y now I appreciate that you may not personally have topped and tail this report but we see at paragraph seven
02:08:30 report but we see at paragraph seven under the persons identified as present title John Tilly and then it just says MP is that as you understood it the correct way to complete a a person's identified where they are a member of parliament I believe so and you would find that there was no reference to
02:08:43 reference to them thank you if there is then all my all my assumptions are wrong but I don't think there'd be a there' be a special branch reference whereas the
02:08:54 a special branch reference whereas the other names you would have references or no tra or whatever there are thank you could we take that down um could we have up now please from the same files sir tab C9 and for the
02:09:05 tab C9 and for the projectionist
02:09:21 16595 and if we just look at the data in paragraph uh one
02:09:35 please uh 8th of April 1981 on Sunday the 5th of April 1981 at 1 p.m. a demonstration organized by the campaign
02:09:47 demonstration organized by the campaign against racist laws Carl met at speaker Corner London W1 and March to Trafalga square wc2 and then if we zoom out a little bit we see the rest of the report is
02:09:53 is essentially um listing subject to the Privacy redactions we've applied the people who attended can you recall whether there was any management reaction to this
02:10:05 was any management reaction to this report no absolutely not uh was there anything unlawful about what was said um by the Speak by the speaker at that
02:10:18 by the Speak by the speaker at that demonstration I don't recall it so I can't say and would it be fair to say if there had been anything unlawful you would have noted it I would have thought
02:10:29 would have noted it I would have thought so yes I would hope so so on the face of it you
02:10:33 it you are presumably you attended this meeting did you to report on it I don't recall it but that would nobody else from our our office from our place what I'm what
02:10:46 our office from our place what I'm what I'm concerned about with this report is that there's no normal Proviso at the top of it so I'm wondering whether that is even my report it says at the very top there's an SDS stamp and yeah but we
02:11:06 top there's an SDS stamp and yeah but we you get the following information from a secret and reliable source and it's not there and all our reports had that on it I mean we we think the source is because it says SDS at the top Y and it's got the box 500 stamp we've we've
02:11:21 it's got the box 500 stamp we've we've obtained it from box 500 y this has come from their files y as SDS reporting that's why we think it's yours is the likelihood that this is your
02:11:29 your report I I I said I don't recall the whole thing I really don't recall it I just assumed because it had Carl on it that it was probably mine I don't know what comment I made when I saw it when you showed me the
02:11:40 when you showed me the fs do you see the difficulty of a an undercover police officer reporting on a public meeting at of all places Speakers Corner
02:11:55 yeah if he had um was this did this ringing any alarm Bells at the time well as I said I don't recall writing this report um I certainly don't recall the
02:12:15 report um I certainly don't recall the incident thank you if we could take that down moving to the issue that you you mentioned a moment ago there comes a point in time doesn't there when you are appointed as tempor temporary secretary to
02:12:25 to Carl brackets league for socialist action um and could you help us with what that role involved it didn't
02:12:37 what that role involved it didn't involve anything because I did nothing I went from that from doing that from being appointed as that I then went to there were three or four members I don't
02:12:49 there were three or four members I don't remember their names or anything from Le foro action who had doing a lot of printing at home and so on and so forth I spent two afternoons with them helping
02:13:00 I spent two afternoons with them helping to print and fold leaflets and this that and the other and then I never saw them again because by that time we discussed in the office and I was not going to be covering campaign against rac's laws did you organize any meetings or
02:13:13 laws did you organize any meetings or anything like that no how did you come to be appointed as temporary secretary well it was literally there were were looking around and I just didn't look away in time and they caught my eye and
02:13:25 away in time and they caught my eye and it was said would you mind doing it and it was yes it was almost it was as crude as that quite frankly I certainly didn't put myself forward I mean you're giving the impression that you didn't this was
02:13:40 the impression that you didn't this was a post you didn't want yes is that right was there was there a problem with taking a post such as this I I'm it it was a post I didn't want because that wasn't the target I was aiming for and I could see myself
02:13:54 aiming for and I could see myself getting very involved in things I didn't want to get involved in
02:14:01 um thank you I think we can move now from Carl to CND D because you do pretty rapidly move on up from Carl don't you and into I I
02:14:16 up from Carl don't you and into I I should point out before you go to that I was right from the get-go I had attended meetings of our
02:14:27 get-go I had attended meetings of our local CND from where my dve flat was and that was very much testing out my new persona and it was as simple as that it was actually when I was when I was establishing my flat and while I was
02:14:40 establishing my flat and while I was still doing Leal social action I saw I saw meetings CND meetings being held in
02:14:51 saw meetings CND meetings being held in Hamstead area where I had I had a bedsit and I thought well that would be a good way to test my background and literally that's all it was there was no nobody directed me there or anything I
02:15:02 directed me there or anything I literally just went along to test my background like joining the local library and I just went along on two or three occasions so I was already just going along to those meetings and it was purely and simply a good test for my pedigree without any danger being done
02:15:14 pedigree without any danger being done if I got it wrong or made a slip up or made a mistake and did did the fact that it might be of some interest a special Branch influence that decision no not really not
02:15:26 really not really and so if we fast forward a little what uh CND at that stage wasn't of any great interest the interest of CN arose primarily during
02:15:39 arose primarily during 1981 when with the imminent arrival of cruise missiles and so on and so forth from a very small numbers and you can see it in their own records their their
02:15:53 see it in their own records their their membership just just flourished it just blossomed because because of the antipathy to Americans bringing
02:16:05 the antipathy to Americans bringing their weapons and you floing them in our country so you've you're attending this is a hamster branch of CND you're attending meetings of the hamster branch of CND yes it's early in your deployment yes you've come to the realization that you need to move on from
02:16:18 you need to move on from Carl we know that you end up infiltrating CND and there's a reason
02:16:30 infiltrating CND and there's a reason for that can you explain H how you move from Carl to CND yeah quite easily um Carl Carl to begin with was not what I was aiming for is leak for socius Action
02:16:47 was aiming for is leak for socius Action leak for socius Action within six months or so had I mean they they were telling me that they were going to do entryism into the labor party so that was something that we at the office it was
02:16:58 something that we at the office it was right walk away from it we can't do that anymore there was no IMG so it was what was I going to do and one route would have been s swp but during the time that I went to those meetings of CND at hamstad there was
02:17:10 meetings of CND at hamstad there was somebody brought a leaflet along to one of the meetings about a training weekend for nonviolent direct action not organized by CND but a
02:17:23 action not organized by CND but a nonviolent direct action education weekend it was run at the school somewhere and I don't know where North Northeast London and I went along to that and I wrote a report on it which
02:17:36 that and I wrote a report on it which I'm not sure I ever found in my B to my satisfaction was the actual report but I wrote a report on it and it covered the fact of they were looking at
02:17:51 covered the fact of they were looking at taking taking what was illegal action in support of of campaigns so I wrote a report on that and then and it what I'm not saying that CN organized it because
02:18:07 not saying that CN organized it because they didn't but it was through CND that I found out about that and where their sort of influence was likely to take hold was within CND following on from that in the Autumn of 1981 I think it
02:18:20 that in the Autumn of 1981 I think it was and I could be wrong with years I'm not very good at it's quite a long time ago it's the mist of ERS uh holding me back here but in in the later part of
02:18:34 back here but in in the later part of 1981 there was a massive demonstration in London which surprised everybody including our branch and suddenly our whole Branch said KY perhaps we should
02:18:49 whole Branch said KY perhaps we should be looking at this because with the sort of anger that's being displayed we'll have to be careful that there's not any illegal action taken in support of this campaign not by CN but through
02:19:00 this campaign not by CN but through because of the large numbers from it so with an nvda week training weekend and that large demonstration which
02:19:08 which coincidentally the greenham common campaign started because women who had come up from Wales went and pitched themselves I don't know whether before or after or half and half half went up
02:19:20 or after or half and half half went up and half had stayed there or they did on their way back but the women a a women's group from South Wales had actually set up a camp outside greenham common and
02:19:33 up a camp outside greenham common and that was I was discussing with my DCI and saying this is happening I told you this nvda could be a bit of a problem for us and what we've always said in our
02:19:46 for us and what we've always said in our branch is any problem anywhere in the UK there's always Echoes of it in London so what we were worried about was that you'd have action like greenham common women taking place in
02:20:01 common women taking place in London and we wouldn't have any insight into or any forn knowledge or any warning so I was targeted at looking at the
02:20:15 the nvdi side of CND not CND itself the nvdi side so that that's how that's how it evolved no no words with the security service or anything it evolved just like that um but if I've understood you
02:20:27 that um but if I've understood you correctly following a very large CND demonstration discussions with your then
02:20:39 DCI that is seen on
02:20:43 seen on the threats that the special branch has to deal with is the next big thing and therefore you're going to report on it potentially the next big thing yes now you give some evidence in your witness statement about the background
02:21:02 witness statement about the background to CND as you understood it you've said in your witness statement that you thought that CND was originally controlled by the Communist Party of Great Britain yes um and that thereafter it had perhaps in the 70s only been influenced by the
02:21:14 influenced by the cpgb and you've said that um there was concern that a tropski is takeover might make it more militant yes where did you get all that information
02:21:31 get all that information from variety of sources really um where do I start on that well perhaps you could start with when did you get that information I gleaned it over a period of time and it's very hard to put your
02:21:44 of time and it's very hard to put your finger on exactly when each bit arrived in my mind um CN d i I would have researched C D and D if I knew I was going to have more
02:21:57 and D if I knew I was going to have more to do with it than I and there are a lot of books and a lot of comments by activists of committee 100 in the day who talked about it and I'm sure I've read in the Press I didn't get it from
02:22:16 read in the Press I didn't get it from any secret source that at one stage over half of the um the leadership of CND in 60s was Communist and it was acknowledged as a as a as as something thing that the Communist Party were very keen to influence if not
02:22:27 influence if not control that was the early days in the 60s not talking about when I was there um were you when you were conducting This research with a view to paying more attention to
02:22:43 paying more attention to CND um discussing it with your managers yes and what was their reaction he was he was the one the
02:22:55 the Trevor had gone so the next one along the next Chief Inspector was he was it was it was period are we talking about David short dve short yeah it was a period when a
02:23:10 dve short yeah it was a period when a lot of things were beginning to happen that we' we' not seen before like the animal rights movement single issue campaigns that were causing lots of problems not massive ones but financial
02:23:21 problems not massive ones but financial problems as you see today with stop the oil and with Extinction Rebellion there's millions are spent in policing those things so you do really need to keep on top of it otherwise you can waste even more millions and and that I
02:23:40 waste even more millions and and that I think steered Dave Short's thinking and I don't know who he discussed it with but he he was the one who agreed we discussed it together I told him what I knew I didn't tell him I'm going to do this he told me yes I I want you to do
02:23:58 this he told me yes I I want you to do that but we discussed it and we thought that there would be an echo in London which there never really was what we didn't imagine at the time what we didn't envisage at the time was how powerful and how influential the green
02:24:09 powerful and how influential the green and common women's movement was going to be which which inevitably after about a year or so we were saying well we actually do need a woman here CU you know John kery isn't going to get very far with
02:24:18 far with that um coming back to CND for the moment me you said that there was a concern about the nonviolent direct
02:24:29 concern about the nonviolent direct action um that strictly speaking isn't the sort of it's not quite the same as public disorder is it and it's it's not
02:24:41 public disorder is it and it's it's not quite what the SDS had been doing in the past was there any discussion about
02:24:49 that I'm just trying to think probably probably the closest to it would have been action by anarchists I mean at the time there was round about that time
02:25:01 time there was round about that time there was stop the city wasn't it it was an anarchist and that that they wanted to actually bring CND into it and CN said no but you could easily have seen that
02:25:07 that sympathizers of of nuclear disarmament might have felt that it was worthwhile lending some weight and some
02:25:18 worthwhile lending some weight and some influence to stop the city because those were the arms dealers arms Traders and so on and so forth that they were trying to stop this whole capitalist organization that was sort of leading us to Wars all the time to their own
02:25:29 to Wars all the time to their own Financial so was there a concern that with large numbers of people protesting about an emotive issue that it might
02:25:42 about an emotive issue that it might get from the police perspective hijacked by extremists and cause public order problems um I think to some extent yes I mean I'm thinking now I'm not sure whe I
02:25:56 mean I'm thinking now I'm not sure whe I think it was probably just before the um the pole tax campaign you know probably 95% of the people on the pole tax demonstration were perfectly entitled and perfectly normal people but that was an absolute riot I'm not saying that a CND demonstration would ever return to a riot but there might have been
02:26:10 riot but there might have been sufficient people on that who said right let's go and block a the whole of the city let's block a the whole of whiteall and things like that and that I could have I could have easily seen something like that taking off
02:26:23 like that taking off uh but that wouldn't have been CND again it wouldn't have been CND and this is where people are not getting it is that while I was in CND and and getting a lot
02:26:37 while I was in CND and and getting a lot of my information through that Medium it wasn't CND that we were pointing the finger
02:26:42 finger at um what was your understanding about how CND
02:26:45 how CND demonstrated at very peacefully very peacefully that was I was about to at the outset ofemployment it it was almost too Pleasant I mean I have to say that my colleagues rid me about what nice
02:26:57 my colleagues rid me about what nice people I was dealing with because they were nice people and I really mean that sincerely I mean did that if that was
02:27:10 sincerely I mean did that if that was your perception at the outset did that continue and endure throughout your deployment
02:27:17 yes um one of the SS's roles was to assist um the security service in its counter subversion role were you told
02:27:28 counter subversion role were you told anything about uh the security service interest in CND yeah that that's a tick one because I'm I'm not sure how clear my memory is on this I knew that well I can say her
02:27:43 on this I knew that well I can say her name because she's RW Kathy masser was dealing with CND I knew that I also knew that as far as she was concerned she didn't want to hear from me or anything from me because she had her own sources
02:27:55 sources um to some extent we had a desk in C Squad as well and I got the same from
02:28:07 Squad as well and I got the same from them but which kind of supports what I'm saying is I wasn't out there for CND I was out there for nonviolent direct action which unfortunately didn't happen because the closest he got to it was was women and I wasn't a woman can I be
02:28:21 women and I wasn't a woman can I be clear um the SE desk are you saying C Squad had a CND desk y um did you understand that your reporting was being sent to the security service I assume that most of it would
02:28:39 service I assume that most of it would be I didn't what my view is that what I was reporting was for public order as much as possible and I would have hoped that that wouldn't have needed to but I had no control over where they went afterwards but if there was anything
02:28:51 afterwards but if there was anything that right remotely if I'd mentioned anything common in this store swp then I know for sure it would have gone to the security
02:29:07 security service um you mention in your witness statement something about some of the Diplomatic sensitivities that were arising I think particularly from greenham common yeah uh but you talk about the political and diplomatic consequences of engaging US security
02:29:18 consequences of engaging US security Personnel yeah y can you help us with what what those concerns were yeah I can certainly on the Diplomatic side the
02:29:39 certainly on the Diplomatic side the Americans are very sensitive about their nuclear weapons obviously and um I've often thought when I saw the see the photos of women dancing on on the bunkers at greenham Comm if there been nuclear weapons in there it would have been quite a different story and my experience of that is having spoken to
02:29:55 experience of that is having spoken to Americans about a demonstration outside the American Embassy way back in 1968 where they had armed Marines behind the door in case anybody broke in with
02:30:06 the door in case anybody broke in with orders to shoot and that's what I meant by the Diplomatic ramifications of us not being able to ensure that American nuclear weapons were properly protected over here does it could we would it be
02:30:22 over here does it could we would it be right and fair to break that down into two concerns one is that the British establishment isn't able to protect the bases from uh protesters is and that's source of an embarrassment
02:30:34 and that's source of an embarrassment I'm not sure I think the Americans would have would have had priority on protecting their bases but is it is it a concern if the British police can't keep order outside the base it would have been an
02:30:45 been an embarrassment and is the the second distinct concern uh that once protesters
02:30:58 distinct concern uh that once protesters are inside an American base uh the worst case is somebody starts shooting somebody gets hurt
02:31:06 yes um to what extent were these these concerns ventilated between you and your
02:31:15 managers I don't know I mean we talked all the time about it it was a it was a was was constantly
02:31:28 a it was a was was constantly pressurized about the need for me and where I should how I should be going whether it was justified so yeah we discussed it on a regular basis and I think weighing everything up we thought it was still worthwhile would it be fair to say that these concerns um about political and
02:31:40 concerns um about political and diplomatic consequences and we shared between you and your managers yes and were they shared further up the management chain I would have thought so but I don't don't know for
02:31:57 but I don't don't know for sure um was there any mention of the home office or the prime minister's interest in CND in the greenham common
02:32:12 interest in CND in the greenham common women no not to me are you are you sure yeah absolutely sure was there a sense that Downing Street wanted to know what the protesters were going to do
02:32:18 do next I didn't know that that's not why I was doing it either cuz we in the police didn't didn't know and we wanted to
02:32:30 didn't know and we wanted to know what CND had a policy of unilateral
02:32:41 know what CND had a policy of unilateral new nuclear disarmament that's debatable could you expand on that well probably 5050 when I was there anyway it was unilateral multilateral there were votes on it all the time it was it was balanced it w it wasn't all
02:33:00 unilateral was there a view that the unilateral side of that argument was potentially dangerous within CND or well as to have a mass
02:33:08 a mass movement
02:33:14 movement advocating unilateral disarmament was that regarded as a concern at all I don't know I'm I'm still not not sure concerned from our behalf or from cnd's from your from your
02:33:33 behalf not really I think I suppose we would we would assess that there'd be more likelihood of finding the wrong sort of people by that I mean perhaps TR Tris or communist within the
02:33:51 perhaps TR Tris or communist within the unilateral Branch than the multilateral if we're talking about if that's the sort of thing you you yeah
02:33:59 you yeah um perhaps the easiest question I'm going to ask you all day CND wasn't trying to overthrow the state was it not when I was there was it subversive in any
02:34:10 any way no I don't I really don't think so it really was it was you know it was and
02:34:21 it really was it was you know it was and I'm a lot of my reporting reflected that I think that it was becoming too large to be
02:34:22 to be subverted you had a lot of currents within it and I don't think they were always as in control of the whole situation as they wanted to be but um
02:34:41 no now if I've understood your evidence correctly the way in which you come to infiltrate in particular the hamster branch of CND arises simply from the location of your original cover accomodation it was it was any
02:34:55 accomodation it was it was any consideration given as to which was the best bit of CND to infiltrate to get what you were after um not at that time because as I said we weren't we weren't intending to infiltrate CND D that was I was it sounds a bit crude and it sounds
02:35:13 was it sounds a bit crude and it sounds belittling and I don't mean it like that but it was almost like getting joining the local library as well it was something that I was doing to establish my cover because I was looking elsewhere at the time when I did it and it was only con it's only events that altered
02:35:28 only con it's only events that altered that as I went along it wasn't something I set out from the outset to
02:35:37 do can I move to the question of tasking and I'm I'm meaning that in a sense of your target is now CND um for the reasons you've given evidence about tasking within that
02:35:49 evidence about tasking within that deployment specific things that people want
02:35:50 want um by way of intelligence to what extent did your managers ask you to obtain specific pieces of
02:36:06 intelligence I don't recall any time being asked for that um we have in the bundle a number of documents from the security service who were meeting your managers I
02:36:23 who were meeting your managers I described them shopping lists with questions sometimes really quite detailed they never reach me are you sure about that as far as I recall absolutely sure about
02:36:35 recall absolutely sure about it um I also know that Dave Short knew my view
02:36:39 my view about what they were doing and how they of of of the attitude that they had adopted right from the start and I I felt I think he would have been embarrassed to ask me to do it by telling me he might have said it could be interesting to our Branch to have
02:36:51 be interesting to our Branch to have details of who it is so we can check whether there's any potential subversion within it but he certainly wouldn't not have said to me that MI5 wanted to know it because he' know what I'd have said
02:37:03 it because he' know what I'd have said what what was I would have said I'm not doing it for them why not well just because I was excuse me bloody minded about it I didn't think I was I was
02:37:17 almost you felt you felt you've been dismissed well firstly well let's get back to CND we keep talking about it but CND wasn't my Target and perhaps that might have meant that I'd have become more and more
02:37:31 that I'd have become more and more working against CND D which is not what I was out there to do and not what I wanted to do either to be quite Frank with
02:37:40 you you've gone a long way to explaining that but could I just ask you to just expand a little bit further on what was the substance of your concern about passing information about CND to the
02:37:54 passing information about CND to the security service I felt probably to be frank dog in the manger I thought they've got their own informant go and ask him
02:38:01 ask him uh is this an antipathy towards the security service generally or is this a concern about the propriety of gathering intelligence about
02:38:14 intelligence about CND bit of both really I suppose
02:38:27 if you are not being given well I think you said as part of the answer you might have been asked to gain things for the branch can you recall that happening national conferences
02:38:39 conferences yes and I think I think from our point of view there and it does come back to public order still because a lot of the things discussed at national conferences were what sort of action shall we take
02:38:51 were what sort of action shall we take there were a lot of motions by greenham Common women there were there were other Anarchist groups who were putting forward ideas where they're looking to be let's get more radical as an
02:39:03 be let's get more radical as an organization which were all dismissed effectively I mean CND even kept greenh and common women at arms length they supported them thoroughly but they did keep them at arms length I think
02:39:15 keep them at arms length I think probably because they knew they couldn't control them either whe I don't know where they wanted to but they knew they couldn't control them what I'm ultimately driving out is when you're making decisions about what to put in your reports to what extent
02:39:29 to put in your reports to what extent are they ined by what your managers are telling you they want and to what extent
02:39:41 telling you they want and to what extent are they informed by you making your own choices probably more by me making my own mind up
02:39:50 actually can we start um looking at um some of your reporting I'd like first of all to look at the first few reports I'm focusing in on what you're reporting from the hamster Branch from Branch
02:40:03 hamster Branch from Branch level the first document I'd like to have up it's file two sir Tab c22 and for the projector 15474
02:40:26 and if we could have first of all um the date in paragraph 2
02:40:34 please 17th of July 1981 so that's pretty early on in your deployment isn't it yes uh Wednesday the 15th of July 1981 at 8:00 p.m. at St
02:40:46 15th of July 1981 at 8:00 p.m. at St Peters Hall bellside Square NW3 hamstad CND group held a public discussion uh meeting as a followup to a recent showing of the film The War Game 30
02:41:01 showing of the film The War Game 30 people um were present um if we go to paragraph four
02:41:11 please the meeting was then open for General discussion which mainly centered on ways and means of expanding the campaign and making it more effective it was generally accepted that the turnout for the meeting was excellent with many
02:41:24 for the meeting was excellent with many new young faces present suggestions for future activities included increased pressure on local MPS and Camden Council both at present sympathetic to CND
02:41:36 both at present sympathetic to CND Street Theater additional showings of the war game film with follow-up meetings and some form of action to protest against the transportation of nuclear Fuel and weapons through
02:41:58 nuclear Fuel and weapons through Camden so um stopping there I'm getting the impression that this is a time of growth of CND the hamster branch is doing things like showing a film recruiting new members and they're talking about the sorts of campaigning
02:42:10 talking about the sorts of campaigning activities that they are contemplating is that fair yep uh and there's nothing on the face of paragraph four which suggests that anything is going to be either unlawful or a threat to public order well the
02:42:31 or a threat to public order well the last sentence the end second half of the last sentence some form of action to protest against transportation of nuclear Fuel and weapons through kremin that had potential potential so the the the question the million dollar question hanging there is what form of action will it be nvda or will it be something entirely
02:42:44 nvda or will it be something entirely awful that would have been that would have been what we'd have asked ourselves and then below that at paragraph five there are some announcements of future
02:42:59 there are some announcements of future events um there is planned for the 24th of
02:43:04 of July a outside the houses of Parliament participation in the world disarmament campaign's vigil and on the Thursday the
02:43:19 campaign's vigil and on the Thursday the 6th of August something which was was an annual event wasn't it it commemorating hirosima day um at the cherry tree Memorial and that is going to be addressed by the mayor of Camden Frank Dobson MP and a number of other people yes so again at that stage nothing
02:43:32 yes so again at that stage nothing expressly of concern from a policing point of view no and mention of elected
02:43:50 point of view no and mention of elected representatives in the form of the mayor of Camden and Frank Dobson reported as per the special Branch Way yes why were you reporting if I use the word anod events
02:44:01 reporting if I use the word anod events like this I suppose I'd fallen into the um cquad reporting mode that when you attend a meeting you report what said
02:44:12 attend a meeting you report what said they and it's it's really just putting a heads up and it's something that we probably wouldn't take any action on but it was already noted just voting events that are coming up I mean you've said
02:44:27 that are coming up I mean you've said falling into the C Squad uh way of doing things I mean we've seen great that's what happens if if a c Squad officer gone to that meeting that's how he would have reported you were doing it the way you'd been taught yeah could we go in the same bundle sir to tab
02:44:38 the same bundle sir to tab c29 for the projector that's 15563
02:44:57 this is a month later 28th of August 1981 if we start on paragraph
02:45:08 1981 if we start on paragraph two on Wednesday the 19th of August 1981 at 8:00 P.M at privacy privacy Hamstead CND group held a committee meeting 10 people were present just stopping there were were these meetings sometimes held at people's private homes always I think
02:45:21 at people's private homes always I think always and could I take it from the fact you report on on these that you had no qualms about going into a private home for these I felt uncomfortable about it so that if that's quals then I had them
02:45:36 so that if that's quals then I had them but um no I mean I felt I was invited in so it's it's a hard one yeah if they had known who I was they probably wouldn't have invited me in you're right did you think about
02:45:48 in you're right did you think about it I didn't I think be honest with you I didn't I didn't think about it but that you I'm sensing a little bit of dis there was a little bit of discomfort there yes yes dis right through my whole four years it was
02:46:04 through my whole four years it was discomfort did you ever raise that with your managers I think we all talked about it actually and some people had less qums than others but probably their groups weren't like my
02:46:22 group um if we carry on to paragraph three the main main topics on the agenda involve future events and recruiting it was unanimously accepted that recent showings of the film war game had proved the most successful recruiting instrument when combined with a follow-up meeting it was decided that
02:46:38 follow-up meeting it was decided that the next such meeting should take place on the 7th of October 1981 at Fleet Community Center when it could be combined with a mobilizing meeting for a national demonstration on the 24th of October and then if we go down to the next paragraph
02:46:54 we see further events that were discussed a regular Saturday stall at swi Swiss Cottage Market support for the world disarmament Campaign which we saw in the last report a book sale at the
02:47:10 in the last report a book sale at the Friends Meeting House necessity for fly posting Etc prior to the October demonstration coaches from London region CND to Lobby the labor Party Conference in Brighton stopping there for the
02:47:30 in Brighton stopping there for the moment on the face of that paragraph the only illegality there is fly posting isn't
02:47:34 isn't it yeah everything else is entirely innocuous yes and fly posting was frankly not why why you were there well
02:47:43 um I was thinking about it
02:47:51 oh yeah yeah sorry yep yep because it was extreme and it was extremely common wasn't it for protest groups to fly post it's a very minor offense yes over the page uh to
02:48:03 offense yes over the page uh to six here it says many persons at the meeting felt that the time was drawing near when the group would have to offer recruits more than film shows Book Sales
02:48:21 recruits more than film shows Book Sales and meetings many newcomers were Keen to get inv involved in some form of direct action in support of the campaign and providing an outlet for this will be a priority following the October demonstration if I've understood your
02:48:33 demonstration if I've understood your evidence today this is more what you're interested in yeah this this is exactly and it's probably at the right time what I was saying how how events took over
02:48:45 I was saying how how events took over really and led me more and more down the road of having to to look at nvdi because we really thought it was going to be a a major problem in the future can you help us a little bit with the dynamic within the hamstad group being
02:48:59 dynamic within the hamstad group being careful about people's names for privacy reasons um was there there were there was an inner core of very very active
02:49:12 was an inner core of very very active activists a lot of people who drifted in and out of it it was I would say very very CND dwise middle of the road we didn't really have any extremists in any way
02:49:24 way uh that's it really so in terms of the Branch's attitude to illegality in committing crimes to further a political agenda where were
02:49:35 agenda where were they well at a later stage with greenham common going off there was a lot of sympathy and support for but a lot of them would probably felt that they couldn't take it that far themselves
02:49:47 couldn't take it that far themselves personally and I think that pervaded CND actually that's the Dilemma CND had as greenham common women's influence became more and more and and was it your
02:50:03 more and more and and was it your experience that the Hamstead branch of CND organized illegal protest activity no
02:50:11 didn't could we take that down please and go to Sir this is file 3 tab c164 file the projector reference
02:50:40 16955 moving forward quite a few months now in fact more than that more than the Year this is the 2nd of February
02:50:48 1983 um says the following in information has been received from a secret and reliable source the campaign for nuclear disarmament CND is incensed at recent press reports that the
02:51:06 at recent press reports that the conservative party intends to use the J Walter Thompson publicity agency to counter their arguments three in an attempt to minimize the effects of this new
02:51:19 minimize the effects of this new development privacy a member of hamster CND and husband of privacy a voluntary worker at CND headquarters has offered
02:51:36 worker at CND headquarters has offered to make contact with a friend who works at the publicity agency with a view to obtaining prior information on any planned publicity
02:51:47 planned publicity campaign um just to orientate ourselves chronologically uh this was in the run up to the 198 three general election wasn't it yeah um and in that election
02:52:00 wasn't it yeah um and in that election the labor party were led by Michael foot on a platform of unilateral nuclear disarmament yes was there any concern that you were hearing within special
02:52:12 special Branch about the prospects of Michael foot being elected on that platform
02:52:27 I don't think so no were you hearing any concerns filtering through from the security
02:52:33 security service uh to the same effect no for the reasons I've said earlier I think anything that filtered through stopped to Dave Short's
02:52:45 desk why did you report
02:52:46 report um about the possibility of a friend of a member of hamstad
02:52:55 hamstad CND leaking information from the publicity agency engaged by the conservative
02:53:18 party I don't really know to be honest with you I really don't I can't I can't give you an explanation now for that because I don't know why did you think that it might be
02:53:53 useful I suppose I probably put that in I'm just wondering why I put it in but I probably put that in because it looked like CND was taking on a political stun one way or the other and it was something I suppose I just
02:54:10 and it was something I suppose I just needed to flag up that's all I can think of is why I put it in what use did you think might be made of this report I don't know it's like so many reports we put in you only know how useful they are when they are were you
02:54:25 useful they are when they are were you given any feedback about this report no do you know what was done with it no well I can see here what's what done
02:54:36 no well I can see here what's what done with it in the leftand paragraph box 500 in the sense that it you can see was distributed to yes the security service from where we obtained it but that would be through the normal Channel
02:54:48 be through the normal Channel dissemination I assume so so some presumably somebody in C squad has
02:55:00 presumably somebody in C squad has decided that the security service should see it I suppose so is I wouldn't know but yes I'd assume so yeah because we sdss Squad wouldn't send its
02:55:12 direct looking at it now this sort of reporting wasn't appropriate was it it's working on a tight line I agree yeah
02:55:24 thank you I didn't perceive that at the time but now you pointed out in the cold light of day
02:55:32 yes did you ever get a sense
02:55:33 sense um that the intelligence that was being gathered might be used for political reasons
02:55:51 you could you could you could ask that question of any report written in special Branch at any time by any squad unfortunately that's the name of the game with us so I the answer yes it
02:56:03 game with us so I the answer yes it might have been because because that's what happens to special Branch
02:56:10 reports um could we take that down please that those were the reports from Branch level that I particularly wanted to to ask you about out we're now going to move up to the London region of uh
02:56:29 to move up to the London region of uh CND before we go to particular reports can I ask about your what was your manager's guidance about the level from which reporting would be welcome
02:56:53 he approved it I told him what I was doing and he approved it I suppose that's probably all I can say I think he was I think he would have been pleased because by attending those meetings if there were to be anything
02:57:05 meetings if there were to be anything that was of interest to us you'd have probably heard it first through through that
02:57:11 that Medium would it be right to say as a general proposition that the further up the hierarchy you are the more access you have to strategic
02:57:31 decisions the earlier you learn of events I'd say the way that's what I'd put it I put it okay and that in intelligence terms has a value
02:57:45 has a value yes could we now look please first of all at it's file to uh tab c24 uh 15
02:58:10 488 if we could just expand that a little bit
02:58:16 please this is a report dated the 27th of July 198 81 the following information has been received from a reliable source as part of a national day of action to commemorate Hiroshima day London region
02:58:29 commemorate Hiroshima day London region of the campaign for nuclear disarmament have organized a rally to take place at Jubilee Gardens County Hall London on Thursday the 6th of August 1981 from
02:58:40 Thursday the 6th of August 1981 from 5:30 p.m. the rally will include live music speakers the planting of a cherry tree and the launching of Lantern boats
02:58:53 tree and the launching of Lantern boats on the temps the greater London Council as part of their support for CND have offered the facilities of County Hall to the
02:59:00 the organizers it is expected that support will be forthcoming from all London CND groups so this of course is uh we're
02:59:15 groups so this of course is uh we're back to the normal annual Hiroshima day uh
02:59:16 uh commemorations uh all of the things here that are being planned are entirely lawful and innocuous aren't yes they are uh and as you have
02:59:30 are uh and as you have reported this is a an event which is being organized with support from the greater London
02:59:47 Council um did the fact that you found yourself
02:59:57 yourself reporting on entirely legitimate protest actions supported by a democratically elected
02:59:59 elected Council ring any alarm Bells um no to be perfectly honest with you um
03:00:18 um no to be perfectly honest with you um it's it's as important is one thing that you learn quite early in special Branch careers that it's just as important to know when something is isn't going to happen as when something is going to happen so it would have been a value that I was pointing out it is going to be a very much a structured very much a lawful and peaceful
03:00:39 lawful and peaceful event that argument one might see in relation to a group which has a propensity for organizing unruly protests um that sort of thing but doesn't that
03:00:58 doesn't that argument run into difficulties when one is dealing with CND which organizes orderly lawful
03:01:15 protests in the long term if that's all that was happening and there was nothing else and there was no other circumstances around it yeah I would agree with you and would it be right to say no management comeback for your
03:01:28 say no management comeback for your having reported this that they probably laughed and thought it was pretty sad report actually when I look at it I would feel the same way um but it was what was expected of you as a special Branch officer it was just that's what
03:01:40 Branch officer it was just that's what you did you know you you wanted to know as much what wasn't going to happen or that it was going to be to be aware of it to be appraised of an event to know exactly how it was going to be set up and yes you're right they probably I'm
03:01:52 and yes you're right they probably I'm not sure they would even have to discuss that with the police because they weren't doing anything but if London region had been asked to send their groups then perhaps there might be more people coming than You' anticipated so it was a don't worry guys we know all
03:02:05 it was a don't worry guys we know all about it this is this isn't some this hasn't blossomed into something bigger because something wrong is going to happen so that would how I how I would
03:02:16 happen so that would how I how I would have explained it to myself but yes it's probably being overc coming back to the the Genesis of your deployment into CND and the concern with nvda Y you certainly do not restrict
03:02:29 nvda Y you certainly do not restrict your reporting on CND to just nvd no once you're in you report in the special Branch Way
03:02:44 Branch Way yeah uh could we take that down please and go to tab C60 sir that's 17072 please
03:03:03 thank you this is a report dated the 8th of January 1982 and and if we go to paragraph two at the December 1981 meeting of London region of the campaign for
03:03:17 London region of the campaign for nuclear disarmament the following five delegat were elected to the National Council we've rejected their names for privacy but the five names were recorded there this is um one of a number of
03:03:34 there this is um one of a number of reports in which you report the outcome of various elections within CND did you understand there to be an appetite for that sort of thing I think there was an appetite
03:03:45 there was an appetite for identifying whether amongst candidates that I reported had
03:03:57 amongst candidates that I reported had become members whether any of them might have ulterior motives and was that done in a two-stage process first of all ascertain who had been elected to which posts I would not have searched those names that would have been put in those are the delegates you do with it what
03:04:12 are the delegates you do with it what you want so they would have searched it in special branch and then taken their own decision later on as to what happened to the report that so far as your role
03:04:18 your role is concerned Your Role is to report putting for the who's being elected and you leave it to others to then research them
03:04:31 them yes and did you get feedback for this no no but it was definitely what was expected of you yes it was expected did you ever get requests did you get requests to not that I can recall
03:04:41 no
03:04:52 um could we um now look at uh tab 153 please uh that's in file three so
03:05:16 15834 now this is a report dated the 27th of October 1982 and if we could have paragraph 2 uh expanded
03:05:31 please London region of the campaign for nuclear disarmament lrcn has prepared plans for a campaign at the next general election in order to provide more information about the campaign the
03:05:50 information about the campaign the following decisions have been taken one a pilot campaign will be launched for one weekend in February 1983 and will involve petitioning and door-to-door canvasing in the prime minister's constituency of finally a
03:06:02 minister's constituency of finally a general election fund will be set up an election pledge will be taken by people
03:06:14 election pledge will be taken by people who would be prepared to take a week off work to campaign prior to the election so this report is directly concerned with London Region's plans to advance
03:06:26 plans to advance cnd's
03:06:33 cnd's campaigning in the next general election yes did reporting that um cause you any
03:06:42 concern um
03:06:55 I don't think so I think that um certainly the first point one the Protection Team for the Prime Minister would very much like to be aware of
03:07:10 that because you know they if they're met with people they don't know why they're why
03:07:16 they're um opposing the pr prime minister if she's doing electioneering I'm I'm finding it hard to explain this um perhaps I'll I'll I'll try and explain a
03:07:30 bit the protection needs to be aware Protection Team need to be aware of anything out of the ordinary that might be happening around the Prime Minister her Protection Team and it wouldn't this extends actually Beyond her Protection
03:07:43 extends actually Beyond her Protection Team because it probably could extend to other ministers as well and that's something that that we should be aware of of as a branch mainly on the protection side now before it happens
03:07:54 protection side now before it happens they would not have been very happy if i' had known about this and suddenly in the middle of something sensitive where they're protecting her suddenly there's a group of people turn up and wave banners in her face and
03:08:05 up and wave banners in her face and everything you it's not saying we're trying to stop them but it's just saying if you're aware of it then forewarned is forearmed so it was put in with that in
03:08:17 forearmed so it was put in with that in mind if that if that's gone too far then mayor
03:08:29 Cooper well the the starting point isn't it that campaign groups have a right to campaign don't they yes of course they do free expression absolutely um and there's no suggestion that all campaigning organizations should be spied upon in
03:08:48 organizations should be spied upon in order to work out who's canvasing where and when no and and if I was if I had been put out just to do reports like this then I could actually say I wouldn't have done the job in the first place that wasn't why I was in the role I was in but it was something that I came across in that role and it's why I
03:09:01 came across in that role and it's why I reported on it and these are nice people not the sort of people who are G not everybody in cn's nice people but people
03:09:21 everybody in cn's nice people but people petitioning and canvasing door too y are not a threat to the safety of the Prime Minister are they um yeah well let's I mean what what do you want me to say there are MPS have things thrown over them don't they I mean that beforehand would have been they have a right to be there and to protest all I'm saying is
03:09:36 there and to protest all I'm saying is that by putting this report in here it gives the Protection Team a heads
03:09:49 up did this report evince any reaction one way or the other no not as far as I know and is the reality that reporting on this sort of political campaigning is something that really shouldn't have
03:10:00 something that really shouldn't have happened um I would defend what I did for um if ID heard that through any other means I would have defended making the Protection Team aware of it so I can't say yes you're right on that can
03:10:15 can't say yes you're right on that can we take that down please and go to tab 2011
03:10:19 2011 which is right at the very end of the same file
03:10:36 19111 if we could just have the thank you at 13th of May 1983 paragraph 2 London region CND adopted at its annual conference the
03:10:55 adopted at its annual conference the following res solution bearing in mind the important part disaffection among the military encouraged by civilians played in ending the Vietnam War recognizing that support for nuclear disarmament has developed in the armed forces of other European countries aware
03:11:12 forces of other European countries aware from news items and letters to the press that there are members of the Armed Forces in Britain who believe in unilateral nuclear disarmament this conference resolves to try to build CND and encourage the setting up of
03:11:25 and encourage the setting up of workplace groups in that industry most directly involved in nuclear war preparation in Britain uh the armed forces and if we could go now to paragraph three
03:11:39 paragraph three please the resolution was the brainchild of Pat Aros Smith Vice chairperson of London region CND who is well known for her obsession with its content she together with the Armed Forces working
03:11:54 together with the Armed Forces working group of London region CND believes that the resolution stops just short of incitement to disinfection although she makes it abundantly clear that that uh is its
03:12:07 is its objective through sheer perseverance she has recently secured the adoption of this resolution as one of the two which London region CND are permitted to
03:12:18 London region CND are permitted to submit to CND Nation conference in December
03:12:20 December 1983 have I understood this correctly you are reporting on Pat Aros Smith's attempts to navigate through cnd's
03:12:37 navigate through cnd's processes um a resolution which she ultimately wants to be passed at National
03:12:45 National level and at this stage she's got it through the London region level um
03:12:47 level um yeah but that's not the whole story there's there's more than the hint of incitement to disaffection here I'm coming to that and uh your understanding incitement to disaffection is a criminal
03:13:05 incitement to disaffection is a criminal offense yeah and Pat Aros Smith um had I think you correct me if I'm wrong a brush with the lore on this score before I don't know her full history but I I know she had quite a few brushes so yes probably um and so she's being very
03:13:17 yes probably um and so she's being very careful to stay on the right side of the line to appear to stay on the right side of the
03:13:29 line uh do you know I mean this is you report on it further down the line as well do you know what happened to this reporting no what the report not do you know whether anything was done with the
03:13:46 know whether anything was done with the sub I don't know I can't remember um and it's right isn't it that Pat Aris Smith was not
03:13:54 was not prosecuted oh no she wouldn't have been that otherwise I would have known that she
03:14:06 had could we now move to the London region CND executive U committee and Council um these were the two these are two separate bodies aren't they there's a committee and then is it the council
03:14:22 a committee and then is it the council and then the committee is I car elected from them all the other way around um well let's have a look at the documents we'll see can we start with uh tab 19 sir um 15408
03:14:49 again as a an opening question was there an appetite for reporting on the executive committee and Council of the London
03:14:59 region
03:15:05 um I suppose yes we wanted to know what was going on in London yes so yes it would so if we take this early example um this is a report dated the 23rd of June
03:15:18 June 1981 and if we look at paragraphs 2 and three first
03:15:28 please on Wednesday the 17th of June 1981 at 7:30 King's Arms Public House Northington Street wc1 the executive committee of the London region of the campaign for nuclear disarmament held its regular monthly meeting the meeting was chaired by Duncan Reese and 30
03:15:43 was chaired by Duncan Reese and 30 people were present following the report of the treasurer and secretary Sandra mcgaan or organizer reported that local Health authorities had recently been given vast sums of money by the home office to set up nuclear war planning
03:15:58 office to set up nuclear war planning offices she suggested that London groups should protest at their local community health Council meetings which were open to the public this proposal was
03:16:09 to the public this proposal was favorably received if we could have paragraph four now please other matters of interest to arise from the meeting were one privacy announced that the Nagasaki day rock
03:16:23 announced that the Nagasaki day rock festival had been cancelled due to the intransigence of GLC officials he
03:16:35 intransigence of GLC officials he proposed that two smaller events should be arranged in October 1981 and March 1982 leading to a full Festival on Nagasaki day 1982 this was carried by the meeting a
03:16:46 1982 this was carried by the meeting a working committee was set up to arrange a trade Union conference on CND for early February 1982 exactly what the conference would
03:16:57 1982 exactly what the conference would discuss had yet to be decided following the decision by greater London Council to declare London a nuclear free zone
03:17:10 to declare London a nuclear free zone arrangements for a london-based petition on this subject were placed in OB bance the meeting closed at 10:30
03:17:23 10:30 p.m. now there's nothing in that report which is of public order concern is there uh and plainly nothing subversive no why were you reporting the essential daytoday running of uh this
03:17:45 committee I think that
03:17:52 SB practice kicking in again that if you go to a meeting you report on it and was there a feeling that the further that it was important to know what was going on
03:18:04 was important to know what was going on at this higher level of the organization helpful
03:18:12 to we could go to um other examples because you reported frequently didn't you on the committee and the council yes including elections to yes the officers there and so
03:18:24 there and so forth perhaps we could um take that down and go to a specific example uh which is file 4 C 222 sir 19393
03:19:01 this is a report date of the 12th of August
03:19:07 August 1983 and if we could look at paragraphs 2 and three please as previously reported the London region CND Council had asked for clarification from the organizers of of
03:19:18 clarification from the organizers of of the stop the city event planned to take place on the 29th of September 1983 before deciding whether to support it accordingly three of the organizers Dave Morris privacy and privacy attended
03:19:34 Dave Morris privacy and privacy attended the council meeting of London region CND on Sunday the 7th of August 1983 they explained that they had come from a planning meeting for the event which had been attended by 70
03:19:51 which had been attended by 70 representatives from peace organizations throughout the country they explained that a decision had been taken at a previous planning meeting that the demonstration is intended to be peaceful with no violence against people or other animals when pressed on the word intended they were unable to deny that
03:20:06 intended they were unable to deny that some elements in the Planning Group were prepared to accept limited violence against the police should arrests be
03:20:20 against the police should arrests be attempted in their defense they stated that the event was being planned as a carnival with Street Theater in an attempt to avoid confrontation
03:20:31 confrontation um if we then perhaps skip to paragraph five the general impression gained by London Region C and D Council was that the event is ill organized with little chance of
03:20:44 chance of success serious doubts were expressed that lack of Prior consultation with police would lead to confrontation and probably violence the potential damage to the public it's very difficult to
03:20:58 to the public it's very difficult to read here something nonviolent direct action
03:21:07 action nvda also featured I think it says high on the list of criticisms lrcn council members uh something that their organization should support the event the simple principle that no initi no Initiative for p should be rejected Ed
03:21:22 Initiative for p should be rejected Ed were defeated in the vote by 13 votes to nine
03:21:24 nine so have I understood this report correctly it's Dave Morris and his associates making their pitch for the
03:21:36 associates making their pitch for the support of the London region of CND for the stop the city campaign and being reject being rejected because of the risk of violence um and does that
03:21:49 risk of violence um and does that reflect um the general caution by CND as an
03:21:50 an institution to avoid disorderly events yes but what I would point out is it was defeated by 13
03:22:02 would point out is it was defeated by 13 votes to nine so there was a there was a a rump within CN who were perfectly interested in in joining nonviolent direct action
03:22:18 events but you are not minority definitely but it was quite a Lar large minority and that was that again shows the purpose of why I was there because you were seeing there that that there
03:22:29 you were seeing there that that there was well no that that just forget that that that's is that for in this particular instance overstating it a little bit
03:22:42 little bit because I see you're smiling well well I say 13 votes to nine I was very pleased to see those figures there actually it made it made it made my argument a little easier because as I was saying there was there was a big debate going on within CND there was a massive debate about greenh and women far more than
03:22:53 about greenh and women far more than there was about this and and to to to imagine that they all wanted just plain peaceful protests without any form of serious direct action is not the true
03:23:08 serious direct action is not the true reflection of what was going on at the time but would it be fair to say this was not the sort of violent nonviolent direct action that CND went into this might have gone beyond beyond yes it more fence cutting and sitting down and that sort of thing
03:23:24 and sitting down and that sort of thing wasn't it yes yeah blockades blockades a lot of blockades there was talk about actually closing down um cruise missiles when they were taken out attacking the convoys so yeah if you call that peaceful and quiet
03:23:37 peaceful and quiet fine so would this be a convenient time for launch yes it would um at some stage not now but some stage later I want to return to the topic of um how it was
03:23:54 return to the topic of um how it was that you came to be deployed into CND sir um once the call had
03:24:03 ended but I'll do that later very well we'll resume um I suppose everybody wants an hour for
03:24:15 suppose everybody wants an hour for lunch and um that means I think we must therefore resume at 5 2 for