Kate Hudson, General Secretary of Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, challenges claims of subversive Communist influence in CND. She robustly defends CND as democratic, member-led organization capable of handling internal issues without state surveillance, and criticizes undercover officers HN65 (John Kerry) and HN88 (Tim Spence) who held senior positions as chairman and secretary.
00:06:58 e e
00:07:45 I'm got to repeat what I have to say at the beginning of every long session so yes forgive me um with apologies for those who've heard this een times before but I must repeat it at the beginning of every long session those of you who have
00:07:59 every long session those of you who have electronic devices may use them to um uh transmit what you have heard in the hearing room but only after 10 minutes have elapsed uh that is to coincide with the
00:08:16 uh the publication of the um hearing by the inquiry which is subject to a 10-minute delay you may not use uh those devices for recording what takes place here or for photography you Mr warington
00:08:29 photography you Mr warington so I'm grateful uh Miss huton welcome back um now before the lunch break um I said I was moving on to another topic
00:08:45 said I was moving on to another topic but um before I do that I just want to revisit very briefly the issue of um potential influence uh within uh CND and um just want to ask you uh one or two uh more questions about
00:09:01 or two uh more questions about that uh now I don't know if you've uh ever come across a a a publication called the defense of the realm which is an authorized history of the security
00:09:16 an authorized history of the security service have you ever heard of that book I've heard of it but I haven't read it no well in in that book uh the author states that by the mid 1970s um Communist Party of Great Britain members occupied eight of the 15
00:09:31 Britain members occupied eight of the 15 seats on the CND National count national executive and that uh statistic is attributed to uh having been sourced from uh Security Service uh
00:09:44 from uh Security Service uh archives do you have any uh personal knowledge of how the um um membership of the um national executive was made up in and around the mid
00:10:00 mid 1970s um no knowledge at all um I wasn't around or involved at that time but clearly whatever the makeup of that body uh it certainly didn't uh steer CN D
00:10:14 uh it certainly didn't uh steer CN D away from its uh core principles and its long established forms of working um if the assessment is is
00:10:27 working um if the assessment is is correct uh is it a fair OBS observation to say eight uh out of 15 seats would would make up a majority I don't I don't particularly want to answer that because I wasn't around at
00:10:39 answer that because I wasn't around at the time you know I don't know if that's correct information so I don't want to answer that very well um going to ask for a document to be brought up now which is ucpi
00:10:50 be brought up now which is ucpi 29299 it's at the it's in the hard copy bundler tab C3 uh ucpi 29299
00:11:01 thank
00:11:17 you now this is a um Security Service document uh dated the 18th no forgive me I think this is the wrong
00:11:27 document 2922 29 please my eror
00:11:41 29229 thank
00:11:48 you um Security Service document I think I was
00:11:55 I was saying uh you can't see on this page but it's dated the 18th of October uh 1983
00:12:03 and just looking uh towards the bottom of that first page I want to say actually before that the the the document itself has headed subversive influences in the campaign for nuclear disarmament brief for SDS
00:12:21 for nuclear disarmament brief for SDS source and um just looking at the bottom of that first page is a subheading National
00:12:22 National CND and under that subheading can we just turn please to this to page two of the document
00:12:42 and um paragraph uh six um reads as follows um the following are members of subversive groups prominent uh in CND um at a national level uh and it gives seven
00:12:57 gives seven names uh against six of those uh seven individuals
00:13:08 individuals uh it states that they're involved in CP uh GB with the exception of uh somebody who has re Revolution youth against their
00:13:09 their name and then although redacted we can see that um some detail is given about the role of each in
00:13:22 the role of each in CND um con carries on at paragraph s I'd be interested in source's comments on any of the above uh regarding their role and status in CND uh does soree any evidence that any of the above
00:13:33 evidence that any of the above particularly the Communists work together at a national level uh for uh particular aims within CND uh what are
00:13:48 particular aims within CND uh what are their working relationships with other members of the CND leadership and it goes on to to give some names um document goes on to give some names there again just uh bearing in mind that this is a document from 1983
00:14:04 this is a document from 1983 um do you have any personal um knowledge Miss Hudson as to um how uh the uh as to who the prominent Figures
00:14:17 uh as to who the prominent Figures were uh at National level within CND at that
00:14:19 that time well the prominent members were monor Bruce Kent and Joan ruk they were the people who were the public face of CN on the media and at demonstrations
00:14:39 CN on the media and at demonstrations and so on I don't know personally of any of the other senior figures um I would just point out that as you know there were 40 or so staff members in the
00:14:51 were 40 or so staff members in the national office there were dozens no out on the National Council and involved to every level so um I think one needs to look at the organization and its leadership as a whole um rather than singling out a relatively small number of individuals ual and you have to look
00:15:02 of individuals ual and you have to look at the work that CND as an organization was doing and how it was um attempting to win public opinion to oppose nuclear
00:15:13 to win public opinion to oppose nuclear weapons and to work to change government policy to bring it into line with international law um would um seven or so uh individuals in in your view and if if you can't answer just say so but would
00:15:28 you can't answer just say so but would in your view would that be a significant number
00:15:33 number I have no idea what it was a subset of so I'm unable to comment right thank you could we move then please to um ucpi uh 1
00:15:46 19392 1
00:15:53 19392 which should be at b254 of the hard copy bundle
00:16:04 and uh this is a h65 uh intelligence report dated the 12th of August 1983 H and it deals with what what's
00:16:20 1983 H and it deals with what what's reported as an takeover an effective takeover of Youth CND by trotsky's elements and I just want to read some of this uh document um to you
00:16:32 read some of this uh document um to you please says as follows the youth section of the campaign for nuclear disarmament continues to suffer from the influence of trotus elements within its ranks following a recent National Youth CD conference where certain radical decisions were taken the national executive of CND nullified the entire
00:16:46 executive of CND nullified the entire conference uh the reason given was that UC CND was a subcommittee of national CND and therefore changes could only be
00:16:57 CND and therefore changes could only be made at the full National CND conference despite this constitutional explanation the real reason was that the youth conference had been organized in a very haphazard manner thereby allowing both overage I.E over 21 years and non youth cndd members to attend and vote
00:17:11 cndd members to attend and vote accordingly the conference was flooded by trotus who succeeded in passing resolutions which place youth CND firmly in their hands although details of all
00:17:22 in their hands although details of all the resolutions are are not yet known it is certain that one uh was the raising of the membership age limit to 23 years to facilitate the retention of an old old ER Trot trist
00:17:36 old ER Trot trist element the decision by national CND the national CND executive is obviously in sense the militant elements in UC CND who've not taken the decision lying down an emergency resolution deploring the national executive's decision and bestowing specialist section
00:17:54 bestowing specialist section status uh on UC and has been prepared by pekam CND for debate at cnd's National Conference copy of the resolution is attached this emergency resolution was put to the monthly council meeting of London region CND for support on Sunday
00:18:06 London region CND for support on Sunday the 7th of August 1983 however uh London region CND Council decided to delay voting on the matter until their next meeting in September in the interim uh clarification on the matter will be sought from the national um
00:18:19 sought from the national um executive uh so we can see uh uh from
00:18:34 executive uh so we can see uh uh from that report that it appears that CND n ified an entire uh conference as a result of something that occurred uh with a countermeasure uh from those effective uh being um a resolution
00:18:49 uh being um a resolution deploring uh that decision uh to nullify
00:18:51 nullify um does it follow um that there were occasions uh when political El elements
00:19:11 occasions uh when political El elements cause problems for the campaign in terms of their influence or their attempts at influence um what I would say um was first first of all with regard to youth um youth elements in any organization are often a bit more enthusiastic and spontaneous than other elements within
00:19:24 elements within organizations um but um mostly I would observe that it clearly shows that if there were any issues CND nationally and CND as an organization was perfectly well able to uh deal with any internal
00:19:37 well able to uh deal with any internal issues ensure that elements uh parts of
00:19:51 issues ensure that elements uh parts of CND complied with agreed National policy and the Constitution and so on and it was absolutely not necessary to have um people from other organ other agencies uh within CND observing what it was doing and Reporting back at Great
00:20:04 was doing and Reporting back at Great expense to the taxpayer this this shows a very mature very Democratic um very broad member-led organization that deals with any problems that it perceives to have within its
00:20:18 have within its body last document on this subject please and this is 2092 ucpi 20902 sir I don't think this is in your uh filleted hard copy bundle but it should appear on the screen but
00:20:32 but it should appear on the screen but it's at B tab B312 for anyone following on hard
00:20:41 copy it's uh another John kery intelligence report dated the 7th of February
00:20:46 February 1984 U and it's a report about a newly formed labor
00:20:55 formed labor CND just want to have a a brief look at what this says at paragraphs three and four which read the formation of this new subgroup follows a defeat at CND National Conference of the hard left
00:21:07 National Conference of the hard left within labor CND it is seen by Outsiders as an attempt by the hardle to secure a new power base within the labor party known founder members of Walter Wolf Gang Pat Aris Smith and and some others uh was one of the Revolutionary youth ring leaders who were involved in an
00:21:18 ring leaders who were involved in an unsuccessful attempt to take over youth CND last year and now appears to have turned his attentions to labor CND in addition to being Secretary of London labor CND he is pekam cnd's delegate
00:21:37 labor CND he is pekam cnd's delegate uh to London region Council where he's known for his dogmatic trotskyist outbursts
00:21:38 outbursts um just with a view to those two intelligence reports that that we've just um we've just looked
00:21:56 just um we've just looked at uh could such activity in your view within CND have formed any basis for legitimate concern uh by the security service and by extension the special de demonstration Squad um absolutely not and I think part of the problem is that the people who
00:22:11 of the problem is that the people who are doing the reporting don't seem to know much about CND and its history because um we're talking about a a a London labor CND group you know which is
00:22:25 London labor CND group you know which is likely to be a subset of the uh National Labor CND group and two of the known found founder members of Walter Wolf Gang and Pat haros Smith um who both when they died in the last few years were Vice Presidents of CN and had been
00:22:41 were Vice Presidents of CN and had been so for quite a long time and both Walter Wolf Gang and Pat arasmith were organizers of the first Al master and March in 1958 and have a an impeccable record of uh furthering the cause of
00:22:54 record of uh furthering the cause of nuclear disarmament so the idea that they would be um unwelcome or strange participants or doing something that wasn't in the interests of CND um that
00:23:10 wasn't in the interests of CND um that that's just a complete misunderstanding on the part of the person who's done this report I mean it sounds like they've got some young chap um who's
00:23:23 they've got some young chap um who's trying to get involved you know if he was doing anything inappropriate I'm sure they would um come down on him quite hard to be honest
00:23:36 um can we now move on to um John Kerry and Tim Spence and what we've leared uh of their roles within CND during their deployments uh and um I'm not going to um take you through it unless uh you think particularly necessary but John
00:23:51 think particularly necessary but John Kerry in his witness statement describes himself as having facilitated discussions of the Hamstead CND group and described himself as a
00:24:04 group and described himself as a facilitator or chair of the group uh for approximately uh 2 and a half years H and if I could take you please to ucpi
00:24:16 29216 that's a C2 of the hard copy
00:24:25 bundle 29216 thank you this is a uh Security Service note uh dated the 16th of May
00:24:41 note uh dated the 16th of May 1983 uh wherein um paragraph 2 um hn 65 is described as as the chairman of Hamstead CND do you see that it says he's chairman of Hamstead CND has uh
00:25:00 has uh access um to London regional office and as a devoted campaigner uh can find an opportunity to talk to many people in the
00:25:04 the movement what date is this sorry this is dated the 16th of May 1983
00:25:09 okay
00:25:15 um moving on to uh 18370 ucpi
00:25:24 18370 uh which is at b122 of the hard copy bundle
00:25:53 um this is um a report uh submitting it's dat of the 25th of June 1982 it's another
00:25:54 another hm65 report submitting um
00:26:04 uh the minutes of the London region cnd's executive and Council meetings held in May 1982 uh and if we just move to page four
00:26:26 please page four please of the document thank you if you look at the towards the top left under The Heading minut of uh London region cndd council meeting held on the 23rd of May
00:26:39 on the 23rd of May 1982 uh we see um hm65 is cover name Jay KY do you see that top left
00:26:47 corner so on the face of it uh attending
00:26:48 attending uh London region Council meetings uh and I think he he tells us as much as his witness statement
00:27:04 um he also says that he attended the national conference is as a a delegate and we and we know um from uh documents that we looked at this morning that he um he stewarded at least one demonstration is that right
00:27:18 at least one demonstration is that right um I think it said that he stewarded the peace chain peace chain chief chief chief steward for the peace chain thank you so that's just um just a glance at what what um hn 65 was doing just want
00:27:34 what what um hn 65 was doing just want to turn to what hn 88 was doing before I ask you any questions about them um he in his witness statement again I won't take you to it unless necessary described himself as a
00:27:46 necessary described himself as a supporter member and Secretary of Hackney
00:27:53 CND and he said in his statement that that gave him the opportunity of reporting on the Widder CND including attending a national conference and if we could put up please uh ucpi
00:28:07 uh ucpi 22163 which should be at B 398 of the hard copy
00:28:16 bundle this is reporting attributed to h88 Tim
00:28:19 h88 Tim Spence um dated the 8th of March 1985 uh it's an intelligence report about Hackney CND and we can see it
00:28:30 about Hackney CND and we can see it paragraph two just towards the bottom of the paragraph his cover name tin Spence
00:28:41 the paragraph his cover name tin Spence there uh recorded as uh group secretary and a signatur to the group's uh bank account do you see that yes um I think he also tells us in his witness statement that he reported on London region executive and Council meetings and the CND National
00:28:57 meetings and the CND National Conference uh and if we could look please now at ucpi 22175 which is at b436 of the hard copy bundle ucpi 22 uh
00:29:26 175 now I think there's a typographical error in my notes so let's uh just check that could you change that to 22174 please ucpi 22174 should still be at b436 of the hard copy
00:29:49 bundle thank you and this is an intelligence report this time of uh 1888 Tim
00:29:55 Tim Spen uh submitting copies of the minutes of a greater London region CND Council and executive uh committee meetings and if we could just turn please to page
00:30:12 two if we look toward at the top of that document's headed minutes of the London region CND council meeting 2nd February 1986 and within those names at the top left of the document about Center left
00:30:23 left of the document about Center left you can see the cover named Tim Spence brackets hacky CND D do you see that I do thank you so again apparently attending um London region Council
00:30:38 meetings
00:30:52 um what sort of um access would the roles of chairman or secretary have given these two um under cover officers across
00:31:00 CND well I can't be absolutely certain but it's clear that they um were delegates or representatives to the
00:31:17 delegates or representatives to the London region CND Council and that they were also delegates to uh the National Council as well and also to national conferences so they would have had access um to that information or to be part of those discussions but of course as I've said previously these were not
00:31:32 as I've said previously these were not private discussions and they were things that were publicly known about um
00:31:43 that were publicly known about um so yeah they they would be there but I'm not quite sure of um you know what role they would have had in that what the value of that would be I mean I'd just like to make a point about um John Kerry because what you read out first of all
00:31:56 because what you read out first of all you said he described himself as chair or facilitator of hamstad CND group there's there's no such position in CND as a facilitator and it sounds rather
00:32:09 as a facilitator and it sounds rather like him kind of downplaying the role of chair in some way um because obviously the chair of a group has um a number of responsibilities it's perhaps depending
00:32:21 responsibilities it's perhaps depending on the who the secretary is or how they wish to kind of share the responsibilities it's possibly the most senior position in the group that would make decisions about the agenda who can
00:32:34 make decisions about the agenda who can speak when the next meeting might be and so on so it's a pivotal role in a local group and that brings to mind um something that he he said John Curry said in one of the earlier pieces of evidence that um when he was um chief
00:32:49 evidence that um when he was um chief steward he hadn't really done much he kind of organized the platform and arrange the chairs or something like that and when we know when we've seen all the things that it's NE necessary
00:33:00 all the things that it's NE necessary for a steward to do and particularly on a very complex organ organizational project like a peace chain you know why is he saying that um he didn't really
00:33:12 is he saying that um he didn't really have to do very much as if it was some kind of nominal responsibility so the fact is that this um undercover officer undertook some quite significant responsibilities he would have had
00:33:27 responsibilities he would have had access to no secret information because there was no secret information but he would have been um functioning at quite a level of responsibility and um making people
00:33:38 responsibility and um making people believe that he was acting in good faith which of course he wasn't you know so it's a matter of um considerable concern and my other concern of course is that some of those things we're looking at um
00:33:49 some of those things we're looking at um they are dated quite late on um you know mid to late 1980s when of course we know from earlier evidence it was concluded prior to the mid 1980s even that CND
00:34:03 prior to the mid 1980s even that CND wasn't such a threat you know and and that it wasn't uh the cause for the kind of concern that people might have thought it was so it again raises the
00:34:16 thought it was so it again raises the question for me why would these officers there what about the role and responsibilities of the secretary are you able to assist us with that yes um secretary would do things like um sending out the mailings
00:34:29 like um sending out the mailings informing people of when the next meeting was uh booking a room for example if there was going to be a public meeting inviting speakers so so
00:34:43 public meeting inviting speakers so so um responding to the decisions taken by the group meeting and taking them forward and uh making them happen let's say but as I say there was some in my experience you know there could be some difference in responsibilities between
00:34:55 difference in responsibilities between the chair and the secretary depending on their skill set um on a group level does either role attract voting rights no more than anybody
00:35:07 more than anybody else um what about um as a delegate or representative to the Regional Council would either have had voting rights in those
00:35:17 those roles um
00:35:25 roles um well um this is sort of extrapolating a bit from what we do now but it's it's certainly the case now that if if someone is representing the group um and is elected by the group as their delegate they will have a number of votes depending on how many members
00:35:39 votes depending on how many members there are in that group so one of these um undercover officers could potentially have wielded a number of votes in any
00:35:50 have wielded a number of votes in any given debate depending on how many votes that group was entitled to and does the same apply to um appearances at National Council or National Conference I don't
00:36:05 Council or National Conference I don't know right no that was with reference to conference about the multiple votes not not to the uh Council I imagine that would have been uh a single member per single
00:36:13 single vote I think the question I originally asked you is what about voting rights in
00:36:28 asked you is what about voting rights in relation to the Regional Council does do do you don't know I mean I to be honest it may be the case that Regional councils are more informal I just couldn't say I'm
00:36:37 afraid and with the positions of chair and secretary were they positions of authority within a local group yes
00:36:47 certainly how do you feel about the fact that two undercover police officers appear to have undertaken such roles within their respective local groups I think it's entirely
00:37:02 groups I think it's entirely apprehensible to pose as someone acting in good faith amongst a group of Thoroughly decent people who are giving their time and giving their energy to
00:37:15 their time and giving their energy to try and change government policy to end the threat of nuclear weapons and nuclear
00:37:17 nuclear war now something else that um John Kerry um tells us about in his witness statement was that the Hamstead branch of which he was a uh
00:37:30 of which he was a uh involved in met at the homes of a number of its members while he attended their
00:37:39 meetings how do you feel about um an undercover police officer entering the private homes of individuals associated with
00:37:44 with CND well I have the same response to
00:37:57 CND well I have the same response to that I think it's completely and utterly reprehensible to pose as a as a genuine member or supporter of CN and to be observing people in their private space I want to ask you about um one or two examples of intelligence reporting
00:38:09 two examples of intelligence reporting about individuals that were associated with
00:38:13 with CND and could I start please by um putting up 16672 ucpi 16672 which is at b54 of the hard copy bundle
00:38:33 now this is an intelligence report of um John kery dated thei of November 1981 it's about a member of the Woodford and onstead CND group and London CND
00:38:47 and onstead CND group and London CND region Committee in a paragraph three it says this it is believed that he is unemployed and spends much of his time in the company of someone else of walon
00:38:58 in the company of someone else of walon CND with whom he shares a free and easy sexual relationship and a predeliction for smoking marijuana did you see that I do yes thank
00:39:09 do yes thank you next one I'd like you to consider please is uh ucpi
00:39:17 18583 uh which is at b158 of the hard copy bundle um sorry would it be possible to go back to that previous one I wasn't quite sure if that was an observation on a CN D member yes so
00:39:46 16982 take your time to read the whole document of could I have it
00:39:55 enlarged no it's the wrong document forgive me it's 16672 it's
00:40:13 Myra and then thank you thanks
00:40:30 okay thank you if you had sufficient time with that thank you thank you all right and then next please could we look at
00:40:43 um uh 1 um 18583 please ucpi 18583 which is at b158 of the
00:40:59 bundle I'm not going to go into this in in tremendous detail but it's another uh John kery attributed intelligence report dated the 27th of August
00:41:10 dated the 27th of August 1982 it's a report about a member of the Hamstead CND and by all means take as much time as you need to look at it but I think if we um consider the main body of the document we'll see it includes details
00:41:25 document we'll see it includes details of family including children uh domestic arrangements and and employment in relation to the individual that that's being reported on do you see that is it possible to have the page blown up please can we make it any bigger please
00:42:25 okay thank you thank you uh next please ucpi 169
00:42:33 ucpi 169 82 16982 which is at b195 of the hard copy
00:42:49 bundle this is uh another intelligence report attributed to h65 John Cary at date of the 9th of February
00:43:00 1983 uh and it's about an individual who is contemplating re joining hamsted CND and the uh main body of the report concludes this way he was uh suspended by Hamstead cndd in August 1982 because of his violent and
00:43:13 1982 because of his violent and aggressive disposition do do you see that I
00:43:19 do and just the final one of these please
00:43:21 please ucpi
00:43:27 20368 which should be a t b350 of the hard copy
00:43:46 bundle no forgive me it's the wrong reference this is my error forgive me
00:43:54 um no could we just have that one back up actually 20368
00:44:00 because I think this is one you comment on in your witness statement um Miss
00:44:12 Hudson um this is an hm65 report uh dated 31st of July 1984 and I think we can see from paragraph two there's information there about a cnd's CND employees marriage to a uh a CND member
00:44:23 employees marriage to a uh a CND member do you see that I do thank you and then finally this uh 22177 UCP I
00:44:45 22177 this is um should be at B 439 of the hard copy bundle and it's reporting attributed to h88 Tim Spence dated the 17th of March
00:44:58 h88 Tim Spence dated the 17th of March 1986 at about a public meeting organized by lad Grove
00:45:05 CND and by all means um take as much time as you want to look at it but I just want to just focus in on paragraph five
00:45:21 please uh where uh there is a reference to the sexual orientation of one of the speakers right at the bottom of paragraph 5 indiv a named individual told the woman there were black gays uh evidentially referring to herself this
00:45:33 evidentially referring to herself this received a round of applause do do you see that yes okay now these are um examples of um uh reporting by undercover officers
00:45:45 um uh reporting by undercover officers on uh personal and private information um in in the course of uh the material that you've seen and looked at in advance of this hearing have you seen other examples
00:46:03 um I believe so and we can see from these examples that um sorts of things reported on employ things like employment and family or personality temperament relationship and sexual orientation and drug
00:46:17 and sexual orientation and drug use um but I don't think that's exhaustive and can can you assist us there are other reports um that contain other details such as people's phone numbers and their private addresses and
00:46:30 numbers and their private addresses and their vehicle details and that sort bank account numbers yes how do you feel about uh personal and private information about those associated with CND being recorded in this
00:46:42 CND being recorded in this way it's incomprehensible to me that these officers are still doing this kind of thing in CND or indeed ever did it at all and to well going back to the kind
00:46:55 all and to well going back to the kind of public funds question that's only the kind of the the kind of smallest element within this you know I mean there the right to privacy and and all those kinds of things um that this kind of
00:47:08 of things um that this kind of information should be sought and recorded and shared more widely must be an infringement of all kinds of rights of the individual I mean not
00:47:25 of the individual I mean not withstanding you know observations about behavioral problems of some individual members and let's not forget there were 250,000 local members 100,000 National members hundreds of thousands sorry hundreds of local groups why on Earth would officers undercover officers
00:47:39 Earth would officers undercover officers be kind of looking at this kind of thing you know which basically you have a kind of snapshot of the entire cross-section of society why are undercover police
00:47:50 of society why are undercover police officers writing down kind of slightly prant information about um indiv idual members of CND I mean it it's it's
00:48:04 members of CND I mean it it's it's beyond comprehension really it's quite shocking um can I take you back to a report we looked at I think it the very first report we looked at actually uh which is ucpi
00:48:17 16798 uh which is at b64 of the hard copy
00:48:24 bundle it's 1679
00:48:38 98 and this is an intelligence report attributed to John Kerry dated the 30th of November 1981 and I just want to um just look at
00:48:50 1981 and I just want to um just look at um a couple of things it says um about a named individual beginning with paragraph
00:48:56 paragraph 7 uh where reference is made to uh the reti ing
00:49:03 reti ing chairman um presenting the conference arrangements and we can see if you count four lines down that individual is described in that repor is a man deeply enamored with the sound of his own
00:49:28 voice and the report goes on to describe him at paragraphs 8 and 11 as petulant do you see [Applause] that
00:49:45 yes and next if we could look at ucpi 16836 which is at b179 of the hard copy bundle
00:50:05 thank
00:50:13 you uh think this is a report it ought to
00:50:21 be yes December uh 14th December 1982 it's uh John kery attributed reporting uh and it relates to the 198 82 CND annual conference and I just want to look at something it says at paragraph 8
00:50:33 paragraph 8 please so over the page the paragraph
00:50:45 8 thank you uh just below that list of names it
00:50:46 names it makes uh reference to the election of a of a named individual there and it says of that individual that they were seen generally as a soop to youth CND d
00:50:59 generally as a soop to youth CND d and derived more from the glamour image she has been at pains to display uh rather than any real ability do you see that I
00:51:15 do how do you find the tone of this sort of reporting relating to individuals who are involved in in the campaign I think it's offensive and deeply
00:51:30 subjective um last document that I want you to look at please is ucpi
00:51:33 ucpi 18249 ucpi
00:51:44 18249 which should be at uh tab B 130 of the hard copy
00:51:57 bundle uh and this is um an intelligence report uh attributed to hn 67 who in fact was deployed into the Socialist Workers
00:52:14 Socialist Workers Party um it's dated the 7th of uh June 1982 uh and we can see from paragraph two that relates to uh stram CND uh and that submitted with that
00:52:25 CND uh and that submitted with that report was a contact list um for the local group um and can we just have a quick scroll through that list because there's two two or three pages of names we can see thank you that's the first
00:52:36 thank you that's the first page and over to page three
00:52:45 please uh and then uh there's some more names and addresses albeit heavily redacted at page uh four when it says no Trace what does that mean um I think it means no no trace on the um on the system
00:52:57 system the haven't don't have a criminal record or anything like that there's no there's no trace of them um now what what sort of people
00:53:09 them um now what what sort of people would would appear on a contact list like
00:53:14 like this well anyone who' signed up to the local group come along wanted to get involved this was a time when CND was growing massively so I assume that's what it
00:53:24 what it is how do you feel about the fact that an undercover police officer reported on the names of uh these sorts of individuals in this way well I I think it's a bad
00:53:51 thing do you uh consider that the infiltration by undercover police officers um has had any impact on
00:54:04 CND well um some of the information that I've read in the documents um suggest that um prior to 1983 there was um kind of maybe CN was
00:54:21 1983 there was um kind of maybe CN was being observed and so on um maybe there was an attempt to limit its media coverage that's one thing that I read um but that in
00:54:32 um but that in 1983 the approach changed um perhaps there was a much more
00:54:45 changed um perhaps there was a much more interventionist or surveillance approach and that information gleaned by the officers uh for their agencies um was used to um kind of fuel and underpin a political camp campaign
00:54:57 and underpin a political camp campaign against CND to try and discredit its uh Democratic right to campaign peacefully to change a part of government
00:55:14 policy thank you Miss Hudson those are all the questions I have for you at this stage uh sir may we take the um conventional break at this stage yes um
00:55:25 conventional break at this stage yes um what happens now is that anyone who may have questions that they wish that you should be asked asked approach um Council to the inquiry uh to put the questions to him he then considers whether or not to ask them and if he
00:55:36 whether or not to ask them and if he thinks it right you'll be asked one or two more questions thank
00:55:55 you
01:10:54 e e
01:11:55 that's so I'm grateful for the adjournment there are no more questions for this
01:11:56 for this witness thank you very much for the assistance that you've given me and could you pass on my thanks to the two co- signatures to your witness statement I will do thank you very much thank you very much
01:12:12 very much indeed uh we will uh now I think having finished today's business Jour until tomorrow at 10: