Morning testimony from Kate Hudson, General Secretary of Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND). As CND historian and corporate voice, she discusses the organization's history, aims, and responds to SDS intelligence reporting about CND throughout the 1980s. Hudson systematically refutes claims that CND was subversive or Soviet-controlled, challenges characterizations of nonviolent direct action as dangerous, and questions the political motivation for continued surveillance especially during the 1983 general election when Michael Heseltine led a smear campaign against CND.
00:18:57 e e
00:19:47 good morning we begin the second week of evidential hearings um as before uh you may anyone in the hearing room may use any electronic device that they have uh to transmit what they have uh heard uh
00:19:58 to transmit what they have uh heard uh during the course of the evidence being given provided that they do so after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they are describing uh the purpose of that is to
00:20:13 describing uh the purpose of that is to coincide with the 10-minute delay in the uh public transmission of the evidence the devices that you have may not be used for recording uh what occurs in the hearing room or for taking
00:20:27 photographs yes
00:20:35 repeat after me I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give
00:20:48 affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth okay let me
00:20:55 pi Mr Warrington sir I'm grateful
00:21:04 M Hudson good morning uh my name is John Warrington and I'm asking questions on behalf of the inquiry over the course of this morning uh could I begin by asking what is your full name my name is Katherine Jane
00:21:18 name my name is Katherine Jane Hudson now I think it's right that over
00:21:30 Hudson now I think it's right that over the period that uh we are uh looking at so the trance two period of the 1980s through to the early 1990s uh you were a supporter of the campaign for nuclear disarmament is that correct that's
00:21:47 correct the campaign is more commonly known as CND is that right that's
00:21:58 right you've remained involved with the campaign to the present day is that correct
00:22:02 correct I wasn't involved particularly during the 1990s but from the late '90s I joined CND and uh became active as a vice chair then chair and currently General
00:22:17 General Secretary uh is it right that you were chair between 2003 and 2010 that's correct and then appointed General
00:22:28 correct and then appointed General Secretary uh at uh in 2010 is that corre right
00:22:32 right yeah and you remain the general secretary I am yes you also authored a book about the campaign is that correct I wrote a volume of the CND history in 2005 and a
00:22:44 volume of the CND history in 2005 and a revised updated version was published in
00:22:54 2018 and is it right that that book is called CN D now more than ever the story of a peace movement the first edition was called that the second was D and D at 60 Britain's most enduring mass movement thank
00:23:09 movement thank you at CND is a core participant in this inquiry it's right isn't it
00:23:19 yes and you um have had an opportunity to look at some of the special demonstration Squad intelligence reporting about CND in its
00:23:32 reporting about CND in its members um covering a period throughout the 1980s that's right isn't it that's
00:23:38 right now is it fair to say
00:23:46 that you don't have uh personal knowledge of a lot of the events that you will have read about in the course of that intelligence reporting that's
00:23:59 correct is it also fair to say that as uh the current General Secretary and um a historian o of the uh movement you are here essentially for want of a better
00:24:10 here essentially for want of a better expression as a corporate voice for the campaign for nuclear disarmament I'd say I'm representing the CND
00:24:28 D now you made a witness statement um on behalf of CND I think dated finally the second of May of this year is that correct that's correct uh that statement consists of 86 pages is that right yeah uh together with three uh
00:24:40 yeah uh together with three uh appendices is that right correct the first uh appendix appendix one is a copy of cnd's aims and objectives yes appendix two a copy of
00:24:54 objectives yes appendix two a copy of cnd's founding statement is that right yes and then appendix 3 a letter uh dated the 22nd of April 1983 sent by
00:25:05 dated the 22nd of April 1983 sent by Michael hesseltine the then Secretary of State for defense to conservative candidates in marginal seats in relation to the 1983 general election is
00:25:17 to the 1983 general election is that the statement signed by you is that right
00:25:19 right yes and I think it's correct that two other individuals also contributed to
00:25:31 other individuals also contributed to that witness statement that's correct uh the first was uh Roger Spiller is that right that's right Mr Spiller was a member of the National Council of CND uh
00:25:45 member of the National Council of CND uh from 1980 until 1986 is that correct yes uh he was vice chair uh from 1982 to 1984
00:25:47 1984 yes uh and I think you tell us in your witness statement he was also involved
00:25:59 witness statement he was also involved in the East Anglia region of CND During the period of tranch too sound right uh the second contributor is Paul ostriker is that correct that's correct he was vice chair of the campaign in the 1970s is that right yes a member of the
00:26:13 1970s is that right yes a member of the National Council in 1981 is that correct yes and vice president from the late 1970s uh throughout the period of Trance to and up to the present is that right that's correct
00:26:32 that's correct you and is it right that he is currently the vice president he's one of our vice presidents thank you how many do you have oh about six or seven not sure exactly now they've also both signed the
00:26:44 exactly now they've also both signed the witness statement is that correct that's correct and are the contents of that statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief they are well thank you Miss Hudson that puts
00:26:56 are well thank you Miss Hudson that puts the whole of your witness statement into evidence uh and if not already it will appear on the inquiry's website in due course I just want to start um by asking
00:27:11 course I just want to start um by asking you a little bit about um the beginnings of
00:27:19 of CND uh and I think it's right that it was founded in 1958 is that correct that's correct
00:27:28 yes what was the reason for the found Foundation of CND CN was founded because in 1945 two atomic bombs were dropped on Japanese cities causing mass destruction and the
00:27:48 cities causing mass destruction and the radiological impacts of those continued to kill people for decades afterwards the death toll is a matter of public record there was obviously great concern about the use of those weapons um and of course as the Cold War
00:28:07 um and of course as the Cold War developed and other countries apart from the United States got nuclear weapons a nuclear arms race developed Britain became part of that and there was great public concern about the development of nuclear weapons and their potential reuse there was also great public
00:28:19 reuse there was also great public concern about the impact of nuclear weapons testing because it was uh widely practiced there were hundreds of very very large scale nuclear tests carried
00:28:33 very large scale nuclear tests carried out in the atmosphere which were known to have serious Public Health consequences so there was a considerable body of public opinion developing against nuclear weapons testing and so
00:28:44 against nuclear weapons testing and so during the 1950s a number of different organizations began to develop there was the uh National Committee Against nuclear weapons testing which was
00:28:58 nuclear weapons testing which was primarily a women-led organization very concerned about the impact of nuclear weapons testing on children and babies for
00:29:03 for example there was also um another section of the peace movement the uh direct action committee against nuclear war which was uh concerned to try and
00:29:15 war which was uh concerned to try and stop further use of nuclear weapons and began to highlight nuclear bases um and highlight the issues around nuclear weapons use there was also the labor
00:29:28 weapons use there was also the labor hydrogen bomb committee which developed in the 1950s with labor parliamentarians and the development of uh a mass petition so on many levels across
00:29:39 petition so on many levels across British Society at parliamentary level at local community level scientists as well were very concerned medical professionals were very concerned about the impact and so a kind of a head of
00:29:51 the impact and so a kind of a head of concern um I would say really arose and
00:30:02 concern um I would say really arose and in the late 1950s I think it was in 1957 some very prominent public figures like ajb ajp Taylor JB Priestley and others um of that as status in society um got together and began to discuss the
00:30:15 together and began to discuss the possibility of a creating a a mass campaign that everyone could um subscribe to and um those discussions
00:30:26 subscribe to and um those discussions continued from in the late uh late 1957 and then in early 19 58 in February of 1958 um uh CND was founded around um a mass meeting that took place in uh
00:30:39 mass meeting that took place in uh Westminster Central Hall there were around about 5,000 people there and that piece of evidence that you referred to I think it's our appendix 2 which is the
00:30:52 think it's our appendix 2 which is the um the outline of the policies which CND unveiled at that time that became the basis of our movement and as you can see if you compare that with our current uh
00:31:08 if you compare that with our current uh aims and objectives you can see how much CND um has remain true to its original founding principles which are essentially against British nuclear weapons and also for the global abolition of nuclear weapons so those
00:31:25 abolition of nuclear weapons so those two elements have always been there but I would say that so in its Origins and continuingly CN D is in essence an enormously moral organization uh determined to preserve life to prevent further use of nuclear weapons
00:31:36 prevent further use of nuclear weapons and of course to prevent nuclear weapons testing too so that's that's how we emerged and and those are the principles and the values on which we were
00:31:48 and the values on which we were established focusing on the period um 1980s through to the early '90s what were the aims or objectives of
00:32:00 what were the aims or objectives of CND the aims and OB objectives of CN at that time were as I say a continuity of the founding
00:32:11 principles excuse me so um as you may be aware in the late 197s there was a decision at a high political level that um Trident the um replacement for the
00:32:25 um Trident the um replacement for the Polaris nuclear weapons submarine system would be introduced into Britain that
00:32:36 would be introduced into Britain that had a a much upgraded uh form of nuclear weapons multiple independently targeted re-entry Vehicles so much more precise but much greater capability so obviously that was very much within cnd's remit to oppose that um so we had a a strong
00:32:51 oppose that um so we had a a strong campaign on that but at the same time we were aware that the United States intended to uh introduce a new form of
00:33:02 intended to uh introduce a new form of missile into Britain and to Continental Europe the cruise and Persian missiles um so we were very opposed to that of course we were opposed to um uh any kind of nuclear weapons being
00:33:13 any kind of nuclear weapons being developed and introduced into Britain and because of the context of the time uh the the developing Cold War and the increasingly perhaps confrontational
00:33:28 increasingly perhaps confrontational rhetoric that was taking place um uh with uh President Reagan uh prime minister Thatcher and others there was a kind of concern that there will be an escalation towards nuclear war um and I
00:33:43 escalation towards nuclear war um and I think anyone who was around at that time would remember being in in great fear and anxiety about the possibility of nuclear war and many people believed rightly I think that introduction of a new class of Weaponry into Europe uh
00:33:59 new class of Weaponry into Europe uh would incre increase the risk of nuclear war and would make western Europe a Target and would indeed potentially lead to a situation where a nuclear war
00:34:12 to a situation where a nuclear war between the United States and the Soviet Union as the global superpowers at that time would be fought within Europe so people were very frightened um CND was
00:34:24 people were very frightened um CND was very concerned wanting to uh prevent the deployment of these nuclear weapons and there was great movements of course Peace movements in Western Europe too uh
00:34:37 Peace movements in Western Europe too uh wishing to prevent the sighting of those weapons in their own country so um the anti- cruise missile campaign was a a central part of cnd's work at that
00:34:48 central part of cnd's work at that time does it follow from all that you've um told us that the campaign was not only against the use uh or deployment of nuclear weapons but but also their production development and as I think as you've
00:34:59 development and as I think as you've mentioned testing as well oh absolutely very much so and of course in that uh in that context it's clear um how CND has been very much in line with
00:35:17 been very much in line with international law so as well as being a very moral organization we've also an organization in the framework of international law so for example by that time in 1970 the nuclear
00:35:28 time in 1970 the nuclear nonproliferation treaty uh had been been ratified I think in 1970 of which Britain was one of the the founding States and that uh treaty was committed
00:35:39 States and that uh treaty was committed to the disarmament nonproliferation and nuclear disarmament and Britain was signed up to that and that's always been one of the pillars of our work to comply with international law and other elements of international law um
00:35:53 elements of international law um following on from the second world war and the Terrors and horrors of the second world war also uh created a situ sitation where the the legal use of nuclear weapons would be virtually inconceivable so International
00:36:08 inconceivable so International humanitarian law environmental law uh regulations against indiscriminate killing and so on so CN is always found itself in that framework and indeed currently you talk about those different
00:36:21 currently you talk about those different elements of the nuclear uh process so to speak um CND currently supports the new UN treaty which was ratified in 2021 the treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons which Outlaws under
00:36:35 weapons which Outlaws under international law all those different elements of the uh nuclear weapons production process including testing and so on um many countries internationally have now signed up to that treaty and
00:36:49 have now signed up to that treaty and unfortunately Britain has not yet done so but it is a core part now of cnd's campaigning to ensure that Britain signs up to that latest piece of international law
00:37:01 law again just maintaining focus on the um 1980s early 1990s um was cnd's uh
00:37:09 cnd's uh campaigning um exclusively directed at nuclear weapons or did it uh Encompass
00:37:20 nuclear weapons or did it uh Encompass other weapons of mass destruction yes we are opposed also to chemical and biological weapons of course the biological weapons convention vention was ratified in the early 1970s but the
00:37:31 was ratified in the early 1970s but the chemical weapons uh convention was only subsequently ratified so although for us they're not on the same kind of level so to speak as nuclear weapons because of the radiation consequences of nuclear
00:37:44 the radiation consequences of nuclear weapons nevertheless we were were and are opposed to all forms of weapons of mass
00:37:51 mass destruction at its
00:38:03 destruction at its height how big uh did the campaign get during the80s uh through to the early '90s what sort of figures uh did the campaign reach in terms of its membership uh well um it was a kind of campaign's dream period I suppose we
00:38:15 campaign's dream period I suppose we went from uh just a few thousand at the end of the 1970s um into the early 1980s when the Trident and the cruise issues arose and the kind of Mass public concern the outcry against that we uh very rapidly
00:38:28 outcry against that we uh very rapidly um developed into some tens of thousands of national members um I think uh at the peak I'm sure it's it's will be in our witness statement perhaps a 100,000
00:38:39 witness statement perhaps a 100,000 National members but we have have and had different membership categories so we have local group membership as well and maybe around 250,000 local members too but of course
00:38:54 250,000 local members too but of course many people identified as supporters of CND so the kind of the public con concern about uh the missiles and the nuclear weapons was really very
00:39:11 nuclear weapons was really very extensive can you assist please with the structure of uh CND um at the relevant time uh and you've made I think reference to first of all there being local groups is that right correct so
00:39:25 local groups is that right correct so could you tell us a bit about what a a local group was and what being in one involved well um I wasn't in a local group at that time but I can tell you based on my knowledge of it and also what it's like today so uh CND local
00:39:38 what it's like today so uh CND local groups are autonomous so they can they operate within the framework of national
00:39:51 operate within the framework of national policies as established by our de annual Democratic members conferences it's the members who make the policy of CND um within that framework um they may meet
00:40:02 within that framework um they may meet on a weekly basis when things are very busy and Urgent or perhaps now more likely to be on a monthly basis uh they will meet in probably in someone's home
00:40:13 will meet in probably in someone's home or if having a larger public meeting in a church hall or a local community center and they will discuss perhaps holding a local stall uh how to do
00:40:25 holding a local stall uh how to do leafleting um how to collect signatures on a petition uh very very often National CND certainly the case now uh provides materials on our latest latest campaigns that the the groups can use in
00:40:43 campaigns that the the groups can use in the ways that they choose and very often um depending on where they're located they choose a particular area of speciality so if they're located near a um a nuclear base for example say they live in barsh near Alas and they may
00:40:57 live in barsh near Alas and they may have a focus on that if they live in uh East Anglia they might decide to focus on nuclear power stations so they have a considerable degree of autonomy um but
00:41:08 considerable degree of autonomy um but they must work within the framework of of CND
00:41:13 of CND policy does it follow then that there are uh
00:41:15 are uh levels uh above the local Group Well the structure of CND is that uh The Sovereign body is the members
00:41:29 uh The Sovereign body is the members conference as I just mentioned uh which is an annual conference where all members May attend and all groups and members May submit motions to be discussed by the conference that
00:41:42 discussed by the conference that conference also elects the leadership of CND in addition to that National structure where there is National membership and of course an individual can be a member of national CN without having to be part of a local branch some
00:41:57 having to be part of a local branch some people choose just to be a member and to Nate and to receive newsletters and so on um so that's that's perfectly fine of course um then there's a regional tier
00:42:14 course um then there's a regional tier um so not all areas today are covered by active regions but um I think at that time certainly there would have been active regions throughout the country so they would have their own uh annual conferences and elect their own
00:42:26 conferences and elect their own leaderships employ their own workers and so on working as as I say again within the framework of uh CND National policy and they would make reports back to the National Council of what work they were
00:42:38 National Council of what work they were doing and they could be asked questions and report on events and share ideas and so on and then uh below that there would be some perhaps tiers of District organization or area organization but
00:42:51 organization or area organization but very much depending uh on the kind of how the membership is in that particular area and what issues there are so it's quite it's a there is a clear structure
00:43:04 quite it's a there is a clear structure an accountable structure but within that there is flexibility uh for organic development and of course one of the things we found in the 1980s was this huge increase in local groups as people
00:43:15 huge increase in local groups as people set up local Town committees and groups against the missiles and so on and then as you'll be aware a lot of those chose
00:43:31 as you'll be aware a lot of those chose to affiliate to CND so a kind of a a a a good inclusive structure so I put an emphasis on inclusive did cndd have any staff uh in the early 80s going through to the
00:43:44 the early 80s going through to the 90s um I I'm not sure how many there were at the end of the 1970s um perhaps just a handful but certainly I know that um by the height uh perhaps of cn's kind of um numerical
00:43:58 uh perhaps of cn's kind of um numerical kind of growth perhaps there were about 40 members of staff at the CND national office and who would staff be working under or reporting
00:44:12 under or reporting to well um I'm not absolutely certain of the structure in the office but of course the general secretary I think at that time of course that was monsenor Bruce Kent um he would be in the office discussing talking with people but of
00:44:27 discussing talking with people but of course there would be people responsible four different departments too I wouldn't like to guess what they were
00:44:38 wouldn't like to guess what they were but um relating to different areas you Administration Finance uh periodicals and so
00:44:40 and so on is it correct that there were also specialist sections within CND yes there were and are specialist sections
00:44:54 were and are specialist sections specialist sections are uh groups they're
00:44:55 they're self-organizing groups of C C and D members with a particular interest so
00:45:10 members with a particular interest so for example Christian CND we have a very active Christian CND D today um they uh choose to gather together and work out collectively how they will advance um CND concerns in the faith community and of course the the faith community is a very big part of CND uh and always has
00:45:33 very big part of CND uh and always has been historically as well we've had some very senior members of um Christian do denominations in particular involved with CND we've also had um sadly no longer because of the age question a very active ex Services
00:45:47 very active ex Services cndd um we've always had um some very significant uh highlevel uh military figures uh involved in in supporting CND preferring uh public money to be spent
00:46:06 preferring uh public money to be spent on other elements of defense and not on nuclear weapons we also have and had a labor CND organization at different times we've had green CND liberal Democrat CND we've had conservative party members in CND but not I think ever organized as a specialist section
00:46:19 ever organized as a specialist section um Youth and student um CND some at that
00:46:30 um Youth and student um CND some at that time I think youth CND and student CND D um um I'm struggling to think if I've missed any out but generally self-organizing groups thank you now um did I understand you correctly that it was the National
00:46:41 correctly that it was the National Conference that was the main or and Remains the main decisionmaking body within
00:46:47 within CND they are they meet annually to set CND policies and priorities so they're
00:46:59 CND policies and priorities so they're not a body which takes monthly or weekly decisions um the bodies um in Whom The Authority is invested between the annual conferences and who are accountable to the annual conferences are uh the
00:47:11 the annual conferences are uh the National Council the national officers the nationally elected officers um and I believe at certain times there have been executive committees it's not something that has been working since I've been in
00:47:30 that has been working since I've been in the leadership of CN but I believe there have been executive committees in the past um how often was the national council meeting um during the 1980s and '90s I'm afraid I don't know don't
00:47:51 know do you have any approximate idea would it go into double figures for example once a month I would would like to guess
00:47:59 to guess right are you aware um
00:48:10 right are you aware um whether their meetings would be recorded or minuted minuted certainly all the uh the minutes of all those meetings are publicly available in our archive at the LSC
00:48:17 LSC library and would such records be uh disseminated down the tear of the CND organization I imagine so
00:48:33 do you know if that extended all the way down to the local groups I think it would depend on how assiduous the representatives were so the situation
00:48:44 representatives were so the situation today is that we have elected uh members of the CND Council we also have delegates from uh regions and specialist
00:49:00 delegates from uh regions and specialist sections as well and it is expected that those delegates will go back and share the decisions and the the discussions and the information from the council down through um the the layers so to
00:49:11 down through um the the layers so to speak of CND so if you have someone who takes their responsibility seriously then certainly you will get a good report in your local group if you have someone who was not doing that then you wouldn't or you might get something a bit more
00:49:28 patchy but they weren't secret and the idea of course was to ensure that as many members as possible knew the thinking and the decisions of the leadership now I think you've been made
00:49:41 leadership now I think you've been made aware that CND was infiltrated by two um undercover officers uh during the 1980s the first known by the inquiry Cipher uh hn 65 and cover Nam John
00:49:57 cover Nam John kery and the second hn 188 cover Nam Timothy or Tim Spence uh and I think having uh
00:50:14 Spence uh and I think having uh considered uh the documents uh you were able to ascertain that uh between them they had uh attended uh national conferences is that correct yes and is it right that from the documents you've seen it appears that they were reporting on national
00:50:27 they were reporting on national conferences for the period between 1981 through to 1986 that's
00:50:39 correct thank you m Hudson I I want to move away from structure now and just ask you a little bit about the sort of activity or or action that CND has
00:50:52 activity or or action that CND has historically been involved in um at the moment I don't want to um talk about nonviolent direct action we we'll discuss that later but just
00:51:03 we we'll discuss that later but just concentrate at the moment on the more typical mainstream type activity um that those involved in CND would become those involved with C CND would become involved in and I think you told us earli in
00:51:19 in and I think you told us earli in evidence when you're talking about um local
00:51:20 local groups they would be involved in the sorts of things like leafleting setting up information stalls petitioning and the like is that correct that's correct all
00:51:44 right think you also told us that they would have regular meetings of the group is that right yes and you made uh reference to also perhaps having meetings that were open to the public in in a venue that is uh larger than somebody's own home is that right yes
00:52:08 what about activity on a regional level just looking back again the 80s through to the' 9s what sort of campaigning uh would um the regions get involved in um first of all I'd just like to add one or two things that groups would be
00:52:23 one or two things that groups would be likely to do um so as well as very much the locally orientated campaigning uh kind of Street campaigning so to speak of course we've always had a very strong strand of Engagement with
00:52:38 strand of Engagement with parliamentarians so uh local lobbying of MPS is something that would be um very much taken up um nowadays of course that tends to be online lobbying but at that
00:52:49 tends to be online lobbying but at that time you know writing to MPS expressing concerns perhaps writing to government ministers as well um of course demonstr ations too you know peaceful National demonstrations of which we have always
00:53:04 demonstrations of which we have always had a considerable number from the older masteren marches in the late 50s early 60s through to today but of course there were some significant uh National
00:53:15 were some significant uh National marches peace marches in the 1980s which local groups would as much as possible mobilize for and come and participate in and then there would be perhaps uh local engagement with uh other campaigns and
00:53:27 engagement with uh other campaigns and organizations as well as engagement with local trade unions where members were uh active trade unionists so there's quite a a wide range of activities both
00:53:43 a a wide range of activities both locally uh orientated and engaging with national initiatives too so on the regional level um depending on the
00:53:55 regional level um depending on the activity level of that region and of course some regions are always more active than others um the elected leadership of any particular region might uh decide to organize particular events perhaps a conference or um a a
00:54:08 events perhaps a conference or um a a local protest depending on local sites of interest and so on so yeah certainly at a regional level there would be different
00:54:28 initiatives and what about on a national level what sort of activity would CND engage in on a national level so well periodically um organizing National demonstrations but
00:54:43 organizing National demonstrations but of course they don't happen all the time um engaging in uh media work that's something that's always been the responsibility of the national office on in with reference to the National media
00:54:55 in with reference to the National media um also parliamentary campaigning there uh in engagement uh with diplomats as well um lobbying this is all engagement
00:55:09 well um lobbying this is all engagement for for lobbying purposes um discussions within lobbying with civil servants in Rel relevant Ministries um what else um providing materials for use by local groups Publications public
00:55:23 local groups Publications public education we've uh produced books many books and pamphlets particularly at that time in the
00:55:34 time in the 1980s um working in Alliance with other organizations um for example in the 1980s there was a development of the nuclear free zones in amongst local authorities many of which declared
00:55:51 authorities many of which declared themselves nuclear weapons free zones um and so on so um within the framework of the decisions made by CN National Conference um providing materials
00:56:02 Conference um providing materials providing uh education raising public awareness and trying to advance the cause of nuclear [Music]
00:56:06 [Music] disarmament could we now move on to um what is termed nonviolent direct action or uh commonly known as nvda
00:56:18 or uh commonly known as nvda yeah uh and can you tell us what nvda is uh well nonviolent direct action uh
00:56:31 is uh well nonviolent direct action uh is uh really pretty much what it it says um it's taking uh campaing action um that is outside of the norm of say what is now called an A to B March or um
00:56:47 is now called an A to B March or um parliamentary lobbying or a street stall um it's always nonviolent that's the very essence of cnd's campaigning always nonviolent um it can involve things like
00:57:03 nonviolent um it can involve things like um sitting down in a road for example or blocking access to a nuclear weapons establishment or something to really raise the profile of a particular place I think that that's that's quite an
00:57:21 I think that that's that's quite an important element of it we may march to Parliament to protest but also uh at certain points we might wish to highlight say fazlan Naval base for example up in Scotland a typical example of where there might be a blockade to
00:57:33 of where there might be a blockade to raise awareness of the weapons of mass destruction that are located there so that's a kind of typical uh type of um form of uh
00:57:49 form of uh nvda over the um tranch 2 period did CND engage in or support nvda type activity um yes that's certainly the case and in fact from our
00:58:02 case and in fact from our foundation um almost from our foundation nvda has been a strand of activity uh within CND more generally uh activity within the wider peace movement um
00:58:13 within the wider peace movement um supported by CND at the start of CND when it was founded um there was the the leadership was uh Keen to distance
00:58:30 leadership was uh Keen to distance itself from nvda can Canon Collins who was the chairman at that time um was very strongly of the view that CND should only engage in uh strictly legal campaigning so demonstrations and
00:58:45 campaigning so demonstrations and lobbying and so on um but this there was a a strand of the movement at that time in the form of the direct action committee against nuclear war which uh believed that it was important to raise awareness directly um of the Bas
00:58:56 awareness directly um of the Bas and the building of the Thor missile bases for example in East Anglia and to raise awareness of the weapons tests
00:59:08 raise awareness of the weapons tests that were taking place in in the Pacific and so on so to actually go to those places and raise public awareness directly but always um in a in a a
00:59:22 directly but always um in a in a a peaceful nonviolent fashion so um Canon Collins tried to hold the line so to speak against that but there was an enormous amount of sympathy Within CND for people who were prepared to take those forms of action and it's not something that the majority in CND D
00:59:38 something that the majority in CND D have ever wanted to do but there's been great support and sympathy for people taking a very strong moral and principled stand against nuclear weapons in that way so uh from quite early on in cnd's um life um a kind of position
00:59:51 cnd's um life um a kind of position developed through conference decisions where uh both uh strictly legal and nvda methods um would be uh used and supported but CND has always
01:00:10 supported but CND has always primarily um not initiated nvda itself but of course during the 1980s when there was this massive massive public concern about cruise missiles being cited here about Trident coming to Britain about the escalation of nuclear
01:00:32 Britain about the escalation of nuclear war then people were very open-minded to other forms of protest and and feeling that whatever um uh protest could be engaged in in a nonviolent way then everything had to be done to prevent nuclear war and of course the peace camps were an example of this you know they were peace peaceful camps but to
01:00:45 they were peace peaceful camps but to raise public awareness and I would say that they actually were very effective in raising public awareness of the
01:00:56 in raising public awareness of the issues does it follow from what you've told us that cnd's position on nvda evolved over time with differing views and differing attitudes amongst
01:01:10 views and differing attitudes amongst those uh who um either supported or were members of the movement I wouldn't say that it evolved over time particularly because I think
01:01:26 over time particularly because I think it evolved in in the early years yes and then after the early years it was clear that um while CND had its own sort of broader forms of organization and activity that there was a great respect for the non-violent direct action thread and there was often support from CN or
01:01:42 and there was often support from CN or CND members may be engaged in both types of work um but that was a that was very much a settled position in CND from the early 1960s and continues to be so today
01:02:01 now you've given us in your witness statement um by all means um refer to it if you need to at paragraphs 9.3 and 10.2 many examples of that nonviolent direct action I'm just going to cite a
01:02:17 direct action I'm just going to cite a few occupations hang on a minute forgive me sorry you might want to start paragraph
01:02:26 9.3 no y thank you mention I'm not going to go through all of them but things like occupations and blockades is that right
01:02:32 right yeah uh uh sittings another
01:02:43 yeah uh uh sittings another example yes Y and then also at um 10.2 of your witness
01:02:52 statement yes talk about blocking roads again uh and mention the cutting of wires at military BAS es that is that the cutting of fences wire fences yes it is
01:03:04 see were there occasions when um
01:03:14 nvda type activity it involved the law being
01:03:18 being broken uh yes that's certainly the case so for example um blockading the
01:03:30 so for example um blockading the entrance to a base um that would be uh technically speaking breaking the law [Music]
01:03:32 [Music] um
01:03:40 y going to ask that we look at a document now which is ucpi
01:03:47 16798 where do I find that it should come up on your screen ucpi 16798 which is at b64 of the hard copy bundle sir for your ref
01:04:08 that's a bit small for me to read where is it in my bundle all right um I don't know if you have a full magnified for you all right yes thank
01:04:16 thank you we'll try and we'll try and magnify I've got it these documents now I think we can see I'm just going to summarize from paragraph 2 um of the document that this is an SDS
01:04:31 2 um of the document that this is an SDS intelligence report about the CND annual conference over the weekend of the 13th of November 1981 uh it's a report uh attributed to the um undercuff officer John
01:04:51 Kerry and um paragraph five um which uh starts I think on the first page and
01:04:55 page and then proceeds over to page two reads as follows
01:05:00 follows um it's just coming up sorry a a bit of a time
01:05:03 a time lag okay now I think it says at at something it looks like a time I think it's 1: p.m. the conference split up into the various groups were already mentioned by far the best attended
01:05:15 mentioned by far the best attended Workshop was that on direct action where
01:05:26 Workshop was that on direct action where 150 delegates grammed crammed forgive me into a small room and many more were turned away at the door during this session it was um overwhelmingly accepted that the time for direct action uh was near we all present agreed that this subject was not suitable for open
01:05:42 this subject was not suitable for open discussion in conference but equally all accepted the necessity for serious consideration of its implementation with this in mind it was decided that the National Council statement and direct action at C
01:05:53 statement and direct action at C Conference document five at appendix C folio 6 did not go far enough uh and it was unanimously agreed that a further sentence should be added C appendix C folio 19 during the session suggestions for
01:06:08 19 during the session suggestions for occupying or blocking the approach to the cruise missile computer control center at High Wickham occupying Downing Street more peace camps like green and common and making use of open days at US Air bases were put forward however
01:06:20 Air bases were put forward however nothing concrete was decided as it was felt that specific actions were better left to smaller groupings with the
01:06:32 left to smaller groupings with the eventual possibility of um a Federation of these groupings as the campaign uh
01:06:48 progress now can um we just go to one of the documents that's mentioned in paragraph 5 and that should be page 39 of the same
01:07:00 of the same um same document so page 39 of the same document this isn't in my witness statement is it uh I think you do cover it in your witness statement just bear with me a
01:07:18 moment yes paragraph 10.8 of your witness statement and Miss Hudson and the document itself because it's not very clear is at uh page
01:07:41 39 yes and I think you you address in your uh witness statement what we can see although albe it fuzzly in that document um uh what was said Under The Heading
01:07:53 um uh what was said Under The Heading National Council statement and direct action which was CND supports regional and local groups in undertaking considered nonviolent direct actions in pursuit of the British
01:08:06 pursuit of the British campaign uh this is particularly urgent in view of the continued government rejection of popular demand to stop the Trident program and rejecting the basing U of cruise missiles in this country in particular the conference uh supports
01:08:19 particular the conference uh supports the peace camps at greenham common or elsewhere and actions against operation Hard Rock uh next
01:08:32 Hard Rock uh next Autumn yeah I can see that and then um at page 106 please of the document on the screen which you address um on the same page of your uh witness statement um Miss
01:08:52 Hudson I'm a bit lost yes forgive me all right we're just going to get page 106 on the
01:08:56 on the screen and if if you if you're following this on your witness statement you should be at page 48 where you address this
01:09:15 document okay yeah and uh I think we can see that um a an amendment to that statement we've just looked at was proposed it says also the CND National Council will undertake to provide a hand to
01:09:27 undertake to provide a hand to groups and organize actions in cases where considered direct action is felt necessary
01:09:46 yeah is um are the contents of that report an example of the increased um interest I think you were telling us about earlier in direct uh in nvda as a response to um
01:10:05 uh in nvda as a response to um initiatives such as Trident and the like is that a fair representation that that sort of period of time there was an increased enthusiasm or consideration of mvda to get the point
01:10:13 point across yes I think that given the increasingly dangerous and alarming circumstances in which uh Britain and Europe and the world found itself with
01:10:27 Europe and the world found itself with regard to the escalation of the nuclear arms race and the risk of nuclear war CND supporters and members and others more widely in the peace movement but also in wider Society were concerned to
01:10:42 also in wider Society were concerned to raise awareness and um take campaigning actions uh to make the public aware of the risks that were being faced and also to convey to government uh that there was not public support not or there was
01:10:54 public support not or there was considerable public opposition to government policies at that time so of course CND has always been our concern has been to change government policy we felt that government was following the
01:11:06 felt that government was following the wrong policy on nuclear weapons and we were exercising our Democratic right to try and change that policy and to uh win widespread public support for that
01:11:17 widespread public support for that change and that included uh taking nonviolent direct action as well as the more mainstream activities which CND has always engaged
01:11:28 always engaged in could I just ask that we return to page two of the document on the screen please page two
01:11:48 please and I just want to go back to
01:11:56 to um what was said uh and what we read out a little earlier uh where it was stated in the report all present are agreed that this subject was not suitable for open discussion in
01:12:07 conference um assuming that what is reported is accurate uh can you uh think of any reason for avoiding open discussion of nvda at the CND
01:12:18 nvda at the CND conference um I imagine it was because it was a conference I think at the start it says 500 people I can't see back to there but it was a very large conference
01:12:30 there but it was a very large conference and not everyone uh would have wanted to discuss nonviolent direct action because it's not something that everyone would
01:12:44 it's not something that everyone would be involved in so rather than it being a kind of big plenary discussion of the whole conference um it was obviously this is my opinion of course because I wasn't there it was obviously kind of um people who were interested in that uh were meeting
01:12:59 were meeting separately for that but I can see uh no reason other than that why it wouldn't
01:13:09 reason other than that why it wouldn't have been suitable uh for discussion in conference and of course there were so many participants there any idea that having um kind of secret discussions that shouldn't go any further or doing something strange and weird that shouldn't be known about there was absolutely zero possibility of such a
01:13:24 absolutely zero possibility of such a thing taking place in in any part of a CN
01:13:29 CN conference could we next look at ucpi
01:13:36 ucpi 15563 which is a b38 of the hard copy bundle ucpi 15563 before we move on from to that document the two documents to which you referred
01:13:48 referred um in addition to the report by the undercover officer uh would they have been published the resolutions adopted at the conference
01:13:59 resolutions adopted at the conference yeah they would certainly have been in the minutes of the meeting I mean they
01:14:10 the minutes of the meeting I mean they were yeah publicly available I mean that was essentially CND D's position anyway I think the the strengthening was that National cndd should support such initiatives and there may have been a concern that CND nationally would say oh yes of course but wouldn't do anything
01:14:21 yes of course but wouldn't do anything about it and would stick to the things they normally do so it would be a way of trying to make CN nationally accountable to the decisions of the
01:14:32 decisions of the conference but the fact that the National Conference supported uh nvda organized by local
01:14:48 supported uh nvda organized by local groups would be made public yes I mean nvda has nvda has never been a secret thing uh within CND it's a kind of strand of activity that we've supported since the early days and at different times it has been more or less Salient
01:15:03 times it has been more or less Salient and this was a a point at which more of the members and supporters wish to engage in it because of the urgency of the
01:15:08 the situation thank you
01:15:21 sir yes could we look next at um I think what's on the screen needs to come off please could we look next at ucpi 15 563 which should be at B um 38 of the hard copy
01:15:35 bundle what section is that in um it should come up on your screen um and I think if you want to see um
01:15:46 um and I think if you want to see um where you address it in your witness statement you'll find this at uh paragraph
01:15:48 paragraph 10.10 at page 49
01:15:57 uh this is a an intelligence report dated the 28th of August 1981 uh another report um by uh John Kerry and at paragraph two uh we can see
01:16:14 Kerry and at paragraph two uh we can see that this report relates to a meeting of the Hamstead CND group uh that took place on the 19th of August
01:16:20 1981 and I just want to look at paragraph six please which is on the second page which says this um many many persons at the meeting felt that the time was drawing near when the group would have to offer recruits more than
01:16:34 would have to offer recruits more than film shows Book Sales uh and meetings uh many newcomers were Keen to get involved in some form of direct action in support of the campaign and providing an outlet
01:16:49 of the campaign and providing an outlet for this will be a priority following uh the October uh
01:16:53 demonstration yep
01:17:02 um again is that an example this time at local level o of um increased interest in nvda given the climate that you've described that was operative at at that
01:17:20 was operative at at that time yes I I would say that was the case I mean the first sentence is basically saying people in the meeting feel we can't just have business as usual we can't just go on doing our normal activities we've got to do other things so first of all they were going to
01:17:34 so first of all they were going to mobilize for the massive demonstration in October of that year and then they were going to be discussing what other things they may
01:17:46 do could we next look at um ucpi
01:17:48 ucpi 19584 which should be at tab b273 of the hard copy bundles it should come up on your screen shortly Miss Hudson
01:17:57 Hudson ucpi
01:18:00 ucpi 19584 it's another report of John Kerry um this time dated the 11th of October 1983 so we've jumped ahead a couple of years
01:18:12 couple of years now uh and um at paragraph uh two uh we we can see that the report um deals with a letter written by the then
01:18:28 deals with a letter written by the then CND chair Joan ruk to the secretaries of all uh CND
01:18:36 groups and um I'm just going to read out some of what it says um Joan rodic chairperson of the campaign for nuclear disarm nuclear disarmament has written to the secretaries of all CND groups in the United Kingdom in an attempt to
01:18:51 the United Kingdom in an attempt to ascertain the Grassroots preference for the type of non-violent direct action for December 1983 three the anniversary of the decision to site cruise missiles in this country uh and the most likely
01:19:04 in this country uh and the most likely uh month for their installation in the letter she outlines the following options and and there gives a few um examples or proposals for nvda um the report goes on CND group secretaries have been asked to forward
01:19:19 secretaries have been asked to forward the views of their members uh to their National Council Representatives uh before uh the weekend of uh 15th 16th of October
01:19:26 October 1983 uh when a firm decision will be made at the national council meeting in addition to provisional Plans by CND to Stage direct action events in December
01:19:39 Stage direct action events in December both green and common and upper hay for peace camps intend uh holding similar
01:19:54 events now assuming um that um the um contents of that report are accurate do we
01:19:55 do we see um nvda becoming more embedded by
01:20:07 1983 I'm not quite sure what you mean by embedded uh well more discussion of uh getting involved in nvda in practice
01:20:24 uh getting involved in nvda in practice rather than whether we uh whether people should be getting involved at all um I wouldn't I wouldn't put it quite like that I mean it's not a question of whether people should or shouldn't do things
01:20:29 things um from the very early years of CND um nvda was something which CND uh
01:20:40 CND um nvda was something which CND uh supported and supported the activities of others and some of its members engaged in and there was no requirement on members or no pressure on members to do that obviously if you were risking
01:20:51 do that obviously if you were risking arrest you know that had to be a very personal decision so no one would ever put pressure on anyone um and say that they should do that kind of
01:21:04 they should do that kind of thing um so I would say that this is just a kind of a continuity of the discussions that have been taking place probably since that kind of cruise thing was first announced but certainly since the minutes of that
01:21:26 but certainly since the minutes of that uh National the National Conference that you you shared a moment ago in in 1981 you know by this time greenham common and other peace camps were already established and some members of CND were involved in those but they were absolutely not organized from CND and it would be very disrespectful to the
01:21:40 would be very disrespectful to the people the campaigners who set up those camps to imply in any way that CND um ran or organized or controlled that not not in the least we were supportive of that and members may or may not be
01:21:51 that and members may or may not be involved in those kinds of things this is um in well I wasn't there at at that time as you know but this is a um a
01:22:04 time as you know but this is a um a typical consultation and and very proper right and proper consultation from the national leadership to the CND groups to ask them uh what type of thing they felt would be appropriate and don't forget
01:22:15 would be appropriate and don't forget there had been a massive explosion of membership and of CND groups so there were hundreds of CND groups at this time so I see this as a a very right and
01:22:28 so I see this as a a very right and proper Democratic consultation with the organization to make sure that the leadership was in line with what the Grassroots members uh were thinking and what kind of activities they thought it was appropriate for CN to engage in
01:22:46 was appropriate for CN to engage in you um could we look next please at uh ucpi
01:22:53 ucpi 19519 should be at B2 b266 of the hard copy bundle that's ucpi at 1
01:23:15 19519 now this is an intelligence report dated the uh 26th of September 1983 attributed to hn33 cover named Lee bonser who um uh primarily infilt Creed women's uh
01:23:29 um uh primarily infilt Creed women's uh women's peace groups greed him common I think
01:23:29 think yes and the um report deals with a meeting of the Twickenham CND where uh a forthcoming Anarchist stop the city
01:23:41 forthcoming Anarchist stop the city demonstration was discussed and I just want to look at what's said at paragraph 4 uh which says a report on stop the city was given by someone who had
01:23:53 city was given by someone who had attended the last planning meeting meeting from her report it appears that there is a a certain lack of organization amongst those
01:24:06 organization amongst those planning uh planning the day a carnival has been proposed although uh no definite information is to hand the organizers are hoping for a million people to occupy the streets and to enter buildings to throw leaflets and
01:24:17 enter buildings to throw leaflets and smoke bombs and block emergency lifts and telephone switchboards the proposed peace Camp is apparently the first first atent uh since the action is threatening violence uh it was decided uh that a
01:24:30 violence uh it was decided uh that a letter should be sent to National CND and local press to express reservations about
01:24:39 about it
01:24:41 it um is that um an example of uh cnd's attitude to uh violence uh
01:24:52 of uh cnd's attitude to uh violence uh when it was proposed to be used in the course of a demonstration or other such activity well clearly so I mean first of
01:25:04 activity well clearly so I mean first of all stop the city demonstration I mean I actually got vague memories of that those sorts of things happening in the 1980s it was not something that was within cnd's framework of uh its remit
01:25:22 within cnd's framework of uh its remit nothing to do with nuclear weapons um so it's not something that CND would have any relationship to um clearly an individual member uh from this group has gone along to see what's happening and of course you know we
01:25:35 happening and of course you know we don't uh constrain individual members in you know what they do in other campaigning but this uh individual has clearly been concerned enough about what might happen uh that she or he has
01:25:48 might happen uh that she or he has written to the local press you know to express concern and is rais Raising concerns with national CND because of the threat of violence um and yeah this I think this is typical of the concerns that would be felt by uh
01:26:06 of the concerns that would be felt by uh local CND members and indeed by national CND about anything uh that was based on violence but as I say or in which violence might take place uh but this is not a kind of demonstration or an issue
01:26:21 not a kind of demonstration or an issue that CND would have been engaged with at all during the 1980s and early '90s was there any perceivable situation where the use of violence or public disorder would be acceptable to
01:26:41 CND can we please look next at ucpi
01:26:50 ucpi 19246 which is at um tab b239 of the hard copy
01:26:55 hard copy bundle uh so that's use CPI
01:27:02 CPI 19246 another John Kerry intelligence report um dated the 24th of June
01:27:12 1983 and this um document relates to Planning by London region CND for a peace chain uh that was proposed link the United States and the USSR embassies uh on a date in July 19
01:27:30 embassies uh on a date in July 19 83 now very briefly um Miss Hudson could you just assist us with what a a peace chain
01:27:35 chain is well I imagine it's uh people holding hands across um an expanse of kind of
01:27:46 hands across um an expanse of kind of space so you know a a human chain a sort of link of hold people individuals holding hands between two given points and we can see from paragraph three that the chief Ed was identified
01:28:01 three that the chief Ed was identified as John Kerry of Hamstead CND so that's the cover name for hn um
01:28:12 the cover name for hn um 65 and the um document at paragraphs four and
01:28:17 four and five uh says as follows the organizers of the event are concerned that the numbers attending the event might well exceed their requirements and arrangements are inh hand for further
01:28:30 arrangements are inh hand for further consultation with Scotland Yard and the park authorities uh for an additional contingency spur to run through Hyde Park uh their concern is supported by the fact that they have already uh
01:28:42 the fact that they have already uh received notification of a train uh from stevenage plus coaches from various parts of the country uh altogether capable of carrying sufficient people to form one leak one link between the embassies in addition many other groups throughout the country have already
01:28:56 throughout the country have already express interest in supporting the event uh bearing in mind that as yet no real publicity for the chain has reached the national and peace media the organizers are working on on a figure of 50,000
01:29:07 are working on on a figure of 50,000 participants however nearer to the event when full details of coaches and known a revised estimate will be submitted to
01:29:20 revised estimate will be submitted to organize the link up it has been decided that at least 200 stewards are required and there's every indication that recruitment will exceed this number that the organized are eager to avoid any confrontation with the authorities and should there be any suspicion of
01:29:31 should there be any suspicion of disruptive elements at the event police will be informed
01:29:41 immediately um is it right that a peace chain is another example of nvda no I don't think it's an nvda I think it's that's more like a a demonstration I mean it's a kind of
01:29:53 demonstration I mean it's a kind of static individual demonstration linked up uh but it's it's clearly more on the lines of just a demonstration because it there's been the Aon in advance with the police the route has clearly been
01:30:05 police the route has clearly been arranged there's a stewarding process it's publicly announced you know it no I would say that's definitely not an nvda in the same way that a demonstration is
01:30:23 in the same way that a demonstration is not an nvda if people are linked um from one point to another is there not the potential
01:30:25 potential um to disrupt for example somebody trying to make a journey across the the
01:30:37 trying to make a journey across the the root of the chain um well I think people would be willing to drop hands and
01:30:40 hands and um it's uh activity that um John Kerry on the face of his own reporting appears to have taken a role
01:30:56 to have taken a role in are you able to assist us with how much responsibility a chief Steward would have had at an event of this nature an enormous amount of responsibility because in them would be invested the responsibility for ensuring the health and safety of the
01:31:10 the health and safety of the participants having an overview of the stewarding operation I mean it refers there to at least St 200 stewards are required so there would be a stewarding map and a planning process in advance
01:31:21 map and a planning process in advance different subhe head stewards would be allocated with a team of individual who would be working in a particular area there would be uh legal observers
01:31:32 area there would be uh legal observers perhaps there would be uh first aid kits there would if there was going to be speeches there would be a responsibility for platform and a microphone and so on so it's an extremely responsible
01:31:43 so it's an extremely responsible position and of course liaising with the police about all the
01:31:51 arrangements um is what was stated in that report about liaison with police both in advance of and during the event typical of CND cooperation with the
01:32:03 typical of CND cooperation with the authorities during a large scale action yes absolutely it always has been I think well I wasn't around at the start
01:32:14 think well I wasn't around at the start but I imagine it was certainly the case today and in ensuring Public Safety on such big events it's a crucial thing just want to look at a couple of other examples of um interaction with the police please the first um ucpi
01:32:32 17982 which should be at tab B100 of the hard copy
01:32:34 hard copy bundle ucpi
01:32:48 17982 and that's a report uh of John Kerry uh dated the uh 16th of March uh 19
01:32:57 882 uh and it uh relates to the CND National demonstration due to take place in I don't think that's right this
01:33:10 in I don't think that's right this document is dat the 2nd of April forgive me yes forgive me sir yes 2nd of April 1982 just bear with me
01:33:17 please yes 2nd of April 1982 but um dealing with the um National demonstration that was due to take place I think in June of 1982
01:33:33 and paragraph three um reads um that one of the main organizers of
01:33:34 of the um event stated that due to the massive numbers anticipated to attend the demonstration that will be necessary to split into three separate
01:33:48 to split into three separate marches um subject to police um approval do you see that um I do mson thank you uh and another example please um ucpi uh
01:34:07 18233 should be at b128 of the hard copy bundle uh ucpi
01:34:20 18233 uh short report that attaches um notes for marshals and stewards for the June 1982 National demonstration uh and it states at paragraph sorry I would have said it's another John Kerry intelligence report um dated the uh 4th of June
01:34:37 report um dated the uh 4th of June 1982 paragraph 2 States it's obvious from the instructions given in the document that the organizers of the demonstration wish the event to be peaceful and intend to give Police Every cooperation do you see that Miss Hudson
01:34:52 cooperation do you see that Miss Hudson yes um can we just look at the notes at page two please
01:35:00 and we can see that some of what was said in relation
01:35:04 relation to cooperation or otherwise with police at paragraph four um I all stewards are reminded they're acting as private individuals uh and their status does not confer any
01:35:15 and their status does not confer any advantages in law nor allow them to act as police officers in any way it is vital that they refer to the police any matters which are likely to lead to breaches of the peace and not become
01:35:29 breaches of the peace and not become involved themselves see legal notes any problems should be reported to block Steward or legal advisers immediately and then on the same page at paragraph
01:35:38 paragraph 10 document reads all stewards will be uh setting first and foremost forgive me acting first and foremost as ambassadors
01:35:49 acting first and foremost as ambassadors of CN D whatever else your job is you're responsible for ensuring that this is a
01:35:58 responsible for ensuring that this is a peaceful and successful demonstration if any problems arise between Marchers and the police you are the people to deal with it see legal notes uh for
01:36:08 stewards and just overp of paragraph um seven uh of that [Applause] document uh headed legal uh points for steers just want to look at some of what
01:36:26 steers just want to look at some of what what it says here paragraph one that the arrang ments for the uh assembly March and rally have been agreed with the police subject to the provider I'm not getting that on my screen sorry to interrupt no not not at all it's my fault I should have been paying attention so it should be page seven of the
01:36:37 the document heading headed legal points for
01:36:44 stewards it's not the right
01:36:52 page should be the page before that that's the one so paragraph one uh the arrangements for the assembly March and rally have being agreed with the police subject to the
01:37:04 agreed with the police subject to the provisor that they can make alterations when necessary if you feel that you're being asked to do something without good reason do not offer physical resistance to or argue with individual constables but contact a senior Steward and or one
01:37:16 but contact a senior Steward and or one of the legal advisers explanation should be sought from senior policemen uh wearing flat caps with and with pips on their shoulders who will be standing apart from the policeman actually accompanying the March remember that the
01:37:28 accompanying the March remember that the arrangements made for Street Collections banners Etc relate only to CND and its constituent groups inevitably members of other organizations will use such a large Gathering to sell and distribute
01:37:40 large Gathering to sell and distribute literature and take collections uh and uh some and some of these take collections and some of these people may be subject to um action it looks like by the police no matter how unjustified this type of police action may seem to
01:37:54 this type of police action may seem to you do not become in involved in these incidents if they occur and try to dissuade our Marchers from doing so as well if any form of disturbance occurs involving CND Marchers and police Your Role will be to help bring this to an
01:38:05 Role will be to help bring this to an end as soon as possible and in doing so keep the number of arrests to a minimum
01:38:15 keep the number of arrests to a minimum experience shows that a large proportion of those arrested at demonstrations are people who are protesting at or trying to impede an arrest which has taken place earlier getting involved with arguments with the police at ground level uh will uh not not help the person who has been arrested and will put you in danger of being arrested
01:38:28 in danger of being arrested yourself and at paragraph five uh says uh make up your mind that you are going to keep your cool at all times even if the police and other people lose theirs
01:38:40 the police and other people lose theirs uh the less trouble uh there is the less scope there is for the enemies um of the movement to denigrate us and the document concludes remember at all costs confrontation is to be prevented if
01:38:55 confrontation is to be prevented if something un toward does occur in former legal advisor or senior policeman
01:39:04 immediately Miss hudon is that an example is that example typical of the sort of instruction that might be given to stewards at a event of this nature um it absolutely is yes I mean don't forget that on these
01:39:16 that on these demonstrations there would be huge numbers and many of those would be families with children with push chairs
01:39:32 families with children with push chairs and so on I mean our marches are typical for their Broad and inclusive nature so ensuring the safety of the Marchers is absolutely Paramount and and stewards are very well briefed uh to make sure that they uh ensure that the March carries off in a peaceful
01:39:51 fashion in relation to planned events were there occasions when CN worked with the police or authorities in a Advance well I wasn't there but I
01:40:12 Advance well I wasn't there but I imagine so um it's certainly the case now can we look at um document ucpi 22171 which should be at b433 of the hard copy bundle ucpi
01:40:28 22171 and this is a report attributed to h88 uh Tim Spence dated the 17th of January
01:40:37 1986 uh and we can see um that it's an intelligence report regarding a London region CND demonstration outside the Italian
01:40:48 demonstration outside the Italian Embassy in London on the 25th of January 1986 and Page uh forgive me paragraph 3 reads as follows police will not be informed of this proposed action as it was felt that by doing so too many restraints would be put on the demonstrators the action is being
01:41:00 demonstrators the action is being publicized through a forthcoming uh London region CND mailing to group secretaries it is expected that the demonstration will be from 2: p.m. to 4 p.m. uh on the above
01:41:15 p.m. uh on the above date um Miss Hudson does it follow that there were occasions when the police were not consulted in relation to plan CND activity well on this occasion it
01:41:26 CND activity well on this occasion it wouldn't have been necessary to inform the police because it was a static
01:41:35 demonstration just returning to nvda type
01:41:36 type activity yeah was it possible uh that nvda type activity could be undermined if the police were notified of it in
01:41:48 notified of it in advance um that is certainly the case but it it varies really um from event to event so for example you may be aware
01:42:00 event so for example you may be aware that um today a a peace Camp is being set up at Raf lakenheath in opposition to um US nuclear weapons coming back to
01:42:13 to um US nuclear weapons coming back to Britain um although that is a peace camp and might be described as non-violent direct action the organizers the lake and Heath Alliance For Peace which includes CND have actually been in with the police about Arrangements in advance
01:42:30 the police about Arrangements in advance to ensure the safety of the participants so in in circumstances like that obviously there is police Lea on to ensure safety even though it's not a
01:42:42 ensure safety even though it's not a kind of regular form of protest activity um in certain cases where um uh individual campaigners are uh prepared to take what might be described as
01:42:59 to take what might be described as illegal action so for example blocking a road um and willing to risk arrest and um to do that on the basis of the defense of necessity that it's necessary to create uh to commit a smaller offense
01:43:13 to create uh to commit a smaller offense in order to prevent a larger one I.E the use of nuclear weapons proliferation of nuclear weapons um obviously one wouldn't U inform the police about those because um you would want to be able to get into place in the road before you
01:43:30 get into place in the road before you were moved so you could have that impact of say blocking uh traffic entering a base so clearly under certain circumstances you wouldn't with nvda inform the police in
01:43:46 advance could we now look at um ucpi
01:43:49 15339 so ucpi 15339
01:43:55 um should be B27 of the hard copy
01:44:07 bundle and it should be an intelligence report dated the 19th of May 1981 um attributed to John kery and it relates to a CND conference over the weekend of the 9th of May
01:44:24 1981 and just want to look at something um says at paragraph 6 which is um following the opening session of the remaining time um following the opening
01:44:35 remaining time um following the opening session the remaining time was spent in Workshop discussions covering a number of topics related to CND by far the most popular of these was nonviolent direct action however no decisions uh were
01:44:46 action however no decisions uh were reached as to the form of direct action should take um the discussion covered a variety of suggestions from posting to occupation of and damage to government bunkers and Incorporated sitd Downs
01:45:02 bunkers and Incorporated sitd Downs however it was uh unanimously agreed that some form of direct action was necessary within the near future and it was decided that a conference should be convene to deal with the specific question of direct
01:45:24 action uh and then I think at Pages um four to five um of that
01:45:41 document uh we can see it's not very clear I'm afraid but we can see um some uh proposed examples of not proposed examples for me examples of um nvda uh that uh were appended uh to this particular uh intelligence uh report
01:46:06 so that's a report about an nvda Workshop they're just a couple of other uh reports that I want to show you in relation
01:46:07 relation to uh activity that um CND was involved in as regards nvda but I think um given
01:46:19 in as regards nvda but I think um given the time sir is that a convenient moment to break certainly we'll um break for a quarter of an hour to uh enable the transcriber to have a well well deserved break thank
01:46:51 you
02:06:20 e e
02:07:23 Miss Hudson I'm going to um stay with the topic of nvda for the time being and I'm going to ask to be brought up um ucpi
02:07:28 ucpi 17164 could I just possibly ask you know you showed us two things before the break yes it are all in this set that you're looking at would it be possible to show those again given the
02:07:44 to show those again given the break so you want to see the documents that you saw just before the break is that right yes yes okay well that is ucpi
02:07:50 15339 should be B27 of the hard copy bundle
02:08:00 and was there something you wanted to add about this document M there was another one before I thought you were showing me a few I'm going to ask me about all of them together so I just wanted to refresh my memory well
02:08:13 just wanted to refresh my memory well this this is the this is the first okay uh and we're going to go to another so this is this is a report just to remind you about uh a CND conference uh where a an mvda Workshop was
02:08:25 an mvda Workshop was held uh and I just want to just stick with the theme of um workshops Training Day schools that sort of thing in
02:08:36 Day schools that sort of thing in relation to nvda right thank you so the next uh document
02:08:48 please um should be uh
02:08:54 ucpi
02:09:03 20383 uh which should be at b349 of the hard copy bundle so that's ucpi
02:09:23 20383 and this is a document uh attributed to uh the under officer Tim Spence dated the 30th of July uh
02:09:35 Spence dated the 30th of July uh 1984 and it relates uh to uh Hackney CND annual general meeting that was held in July
02:09:41 July 1984 and submitted with that report was a copy of that local group's annual report and I just want to have a look at small section of that annual report which is at page nine please
02:10:02 so there should be I think if it can be expanded thank you uh just above Center a heading nvda training uh which reads ever since our first nvda day school in May last year
02:10:13 first nvda day school in May last year training in nonviolent direct action has been an important part of our work we have held two successful day schools uh this year one in April and one in
02:10:28 and one in June uh so that's just uh another example of um uh nvda uh or reporting on nvda uh
02:10:40 um uh nvda uh or reporting on nvda uh training and just one more uh to look at please which is ucpi
02:10:50 ucpi 18461 ucpi 18461 which should be a tab uh b14 six of the hard copy
02:11:05 bundle thank you now this is a report dated the uh 19th of July 1982 attributed to uh John Kerry uh and it deals with an nvda
02:11:19 Kerry uh and it deals with an nvda training weekend that was to be held in July 1982
02:11:26 July 1982 and just picking up a paragraph two reads as follows the north London campaign for nuclear disarm has arranged a nonviolent direct action training weekend for Saturday 24th of July 1982 at the Crypt St John the Evangelist m one most of the
02:11:40 the Evangelist m one most of the arrangements have been made by someone of woodgreen CND D and someone of Hamstead CND who hope to attract about 100 activists from the north London area instructors or facilitators as they prefer to be called uh will be provided
02:12:05 prefer to be called uh will be provided uh by someone a full-time worker at the CND national office the cost uh of the course will be 8 per person a copy of the registration form is attached to this
02:12:06 this report and then the second page of that um appears to be some sort of uh
02:12:21 that um appears to be some sort of uh flyer and just looking at that um that second document um please
02:12:30 please um this sort of fly would that be circulated um
02:12:41 circulated um amongst people within the group or or in your experience uh were these sorts of um fers circulated generally or publicly um well it varies I mean I have no idea uh with regard to this particular one yes um but as it's from
02:12:53 particular one yes um but as it's from North London CND which is rather a large group it may well be that it was um only really aimed at CND members you know because obviously um a church
02:13:06 because obviously um a church Crypt um isn't going to you know you can't have masses and masses of people in a church Crypt but um now I imagine that this one would have been primarily
02:13:19 that this one would have been primarily aimed at members of CND in North London but I couldn't say that for certain in the um 19 early uh 1980s through to the early '90s how common
02:13:31 through to the early '90s how common were nvda day schools workshops and and training weekends well I don't know I imagine that they were reasonably common and what I think this shows I mean I think it's very impressive if I can say that you know
02:13:47 impressive if I can say that you know how seriously uh the local groups and local campaigners were taking uh nonviolent direct action in the sense of preparing properly for it you know having proper briefings proper training
02:13:58 having proper briefings proper training sessions and not just saying right we're all going to go somewhere and block something you know really taking it seriously so that would have been with due regard for legal questions uh health and safety you know making sure that the
02:14:11 and safety you know making sure that the individuals themselves were safe and and knew that they knew about breaking the law and what that might inail um so I'm
02:14:23 law and what that might inail um so I'm I'm very pleased to see these actually I was going to ask you what the purpose was of such um education but I think you've answered that so yeah I'm grateful um from your drawing from your experience or from the documents that you've seen
02:14:37 you've seen um would it be fair to say that Education and Training on uh nvda was an ordinary part of CND activity in the tranch 2 period it seems so
02:14:51 period it seems so thank
02:14:55 you can we look now at um ucpi
02:15:17 17164 and this is a report attributed to um John Kerry dated the 11th into February 1982 it's primarily primarily addresses cnd's um
02:15:31 addresses cnd's um growth um but I just want to draw your attention to um paragraph uh
02:15:42 7 uh which reads as follows the third and potentially most dangerous Avenue of activity involves groups which are planning for nonviolent direct action this is a new development within the revived CN and is a reflection of the hardening of
02:16:02 and is a reflection of the hardening of attitudes of um many C and D members as the arrival of cruise missiles draws near in addition to these members non-violent direct action attracts uh
02:16:13 non-violent direct action attracts uh the libertarian groups anarchists London Green Peace the peace pledge Union the anti-nuclear campaign and various sections um of the women's movement the problems presented by non nonviolent direct action which has been developed
02:16:26 direct action which has been developed and the light of experience gained from marches and demonstrations held in the 1960s and 1970s by the committee of 100 and thec are evident in the basic principles instilled at nonviolent uh
02:16:38 principles instilled at nonviolent uh direct action training uh weekends and
02:16:49 direct action training uh weekends and the report goes on to um set out um uh what the author says are uh some of those um principles um can I just ask you just focusing on paragraph 7 please
02:17:02 please um I'm not seeing that on my screen no I'll just wait for it to come up so paragraph s please of the document of page
02:17:16 two do you have anything to say about the description of potentially the most dangerous Avenue of activity well I've to be honest I find this paragraph quite extraordinary and it's not expressed in any terminology
02:17:27 it's not expressed in any terminology that I recognize in relation to CND or the peace movement um nonviolent direct action was a campaigning method that was
02:17:40 action was a campaigning method that was well known and had been in existence for a very very long time at least since the 1950s and was embraced by uh the peace
02:17:51 1950s and was embraced by uh the peace movement generally orbe it in a kind of um um perhaps a minority uh form of action so it's hard to see how it could be described as most potentially or at least at all a dangerous Avenue of activity um not
02:18:06 dangerous Avenue of activity um not least because it was nonviolent direct action and I think that all the uh forms of action that we have described here which you've uh read to me um none of
02:18:19 which you've uh read to me um none of those are in any sense violent in any sense um dangerous so I I don't quite understand where this person is really uh coming from um and this reflection of
02:18:34 uh coming from um and this reflection of the hardening of attitudes of many CND D members I mean what exactly does hardening mean you know CN D members are deeply committed as I've said before very moral very concerned about the
02:18:49 very moral very concerned about the future of humanity um so they would May well have been you know more concerned and more determined um as as the arrival of cruise missiles came near but I don't understand how that could be described
02:19:02 understand how that could be described as a hardening hardening of attitude in inverted commas which makes it sound like a a dangerous or threatening thing on the contrary people would have been more concerned and more determined to make their voices heard and to win the
02:19:20 make their voices heard and to win the case uh for um the non-arrival of cruise missiles and of course they they turned out to be quite correct because as you'll be aware with the uh signing of the and ratification of the INF treaty just a few years later the missiles which arrived were taken away again you
02:19:44 which arrived were taken away again you know so this is a strange um phraseology and in this list of um things that nvda attracts um you know it talks about peace pledge Union which is a historically uh very long-standing highly respected pacifist organization you know so how they could present any danger I don't know uh the
02:19:55 present any danger I don't know uh the anti-nuclear campaign um as I've said to my uh legal team before I've never heard of The anti-nuclear Campaign I've no idea uh what that is and I I couldn't
02:20:10 idea uh what that is and I I couldn't comment on on the other organizations but this is seems to me a strange paragraph thank you um next document um please is ucpi 206
02:20:27 please is ucpi 206 31 which should be at B uh tab B uh 346 of the hard copy
02:20:38 bundle this is a report attributed to hn33 Lee
02:20:40 hn33 Lee bonser uh dated the uh 8th of um June
02:20:52 1984 and uh it it's a report that submits some leaflets and posters advertising a demonstration at chilwell ordinance Depot That was supposed to be held on the 1st of July of
02:21:05 1984 and um I'm not going to go through it uh in any detail but can we just look at the second and third Pages please I'm not seeing it in close up they I'm just going to have them brought up so page
02:21:16 going to have them brought up so page two and three if we could have them just next to each other could I possibly see that first page enlarged yes of
02:21:30 course the first page of yes that's the first page of the
02:21:45 report okay thank you thank you so over the page uh we have
02:22:10 um a document headed reclaim chill well and if we look at the top right of the um document says care of Nottingham CND uh and in the um body of that document it um uh tells us under the heading the action that the major event of the day
02:22:25 action that the major event of the day is going to be a mass Press Bar onto the base uh starting at 1:00 we advise all those intending to take part in the action to read The Briefing sheet and if possible have some sort of uh nvda uh
02:22:40 training now um it may be that you can't assist but do you know if this sort of uh leaflet or or poster uh would have been made publicly
02:22:55 been made publicly available for would have been would have it been something confined to uh those who were
02:22:59 who were interested I don't know right but I mean the fact is whether or not it was intended to be just for members or more widely CN D was a massive organization
02:23:10 widely CN D was a massive organization at that time so putting something out in this form just shows that it wasn't intended to be secret in any way because inevitably even if it was only sent to members lots of people could have seen it you
02:23:36 know are you able to assist with uh how much nvda featured in cnd's activities in England and Wales over the period that we're looking at so 1980s early 1990s are you able to give us any idea of how much nvda activity
02:23:48 of how much nvda activity featured I can't really shed any light on that I'm obviously aware of the peace camps there were a number of Peace camps there were obviously protests at other
02:24:02 there were obviously protests at other places but um how many or to what extent and over what period I'm afraid I don't
02:24:13 know now I just want to um ask you about a couple of things that uh John Kerry uh said in his witness statement and and Timothy Spence said in his witness statement all right um and
02:24:31 witness statement all right um and um you address uh the first of these in your witness statement at paragraph uh 7.5 so it's page 38 of your witness
02:24:39 witness statement paragraph
02:24:49 7.5 and um I don't think it needs to be up on the screen thank you um
02:24:51 you um now what John kery said in his witness statement and I won't bring it up on the screene unless you think necessary but
02:25:07 screene unless you think necessary but what he said at paragraph 140 was this in my view CND itself did not pose a significant risk of public disorder there were however elements within it and fellow Travelers alongside it that could potentially pose a challenge and
02:25:20 could potentially pose a challenge and this was particularly true of the envy BDA activist element do you agree with that assessment what date was this so this was this is something that uh UCO Jon
02:25:33 was this is something that uh UCO Jon kery said in his witness statement it doesn't come from any intelligence contemporaneous intelligence report or anything like that but you address it at uh paragraph 7.5 of your witness statement okay could you repeat the
02:25:45 statement okay could you repeat the question please ABS would you want me to read out what he said again no I can see that here just what was your question question do you agree with his
02:26:00 question do you agree with his assessment um yes I don't think C and posed any risk of public disorder significant or not
02:26:10 not you the reason I asked that the question about timing is because it appears from documents that I've read that this assessment about CND um not presenting a risk um was took place quite early yes in the period of surveillance so to
02:26:25 in the period of surveillance so to speak so one wonders why given that this was an accepted position why the surveillance continued until 1986 we'll look at some of those documents a little later okay thank you um next and you address this at
02:26:37 um next and you address this at paragraph 7.6 page 39 of your witness statement next I want to ask you about something Timothy Spence said in his witness
02:26:48 witness statement he said I'm asked why I infiltrated CND there was the potential for public disorder through marches and
02:27:01 for public disorder through marches and blockades I did not consider Hackney CND or CND generally was subversive I did consider that it had the potential to cause a challenge in respect of public order the only criminality would be public order related or fly
02:27:18 posting is that an assessment that you agree with or disagree with um I'm not quite sure I understand all the legal
02:27:29 the legal terminology there I mean could you just explain if I break it down and is it possible where can I see that yes we could bring it up for you so it's a uh MPS
02:27:36 MPS 0748 356
02:27:51 that should be page uh
02:28:06 46 page 46
02:28:22 please no I think um this is the wrong reference could we try try um instead of using the page number could we try paragraph 141
02:28:48 instead all right so paragraphs 141 I'm asked why I infiltrated CND there was the potential for public disorder through marches and blockades blocking the main road is mentioned in the report and it gives the number of the report and then paragraph
02:29:04 142 I did not consider uh Hackney CND or CND generally was subversive I did consider uh that it had the potential to cause a challenge in respect of public order the only criminality would be public order related or fly
02:29:16 public order related or fly posting and the question that I asked was do you agree with that assessment um not not in uh total no um tell us where you're different yes uh CND D was not uh never has been
02:29:33 uh CND D was not uh never has been subversive at all so in in that sense um I agree all um can I just see the
02:29:45 previous yeah so he he in 141 so it says there was potential for public disorder through marches and blockades I I don't agree with that I mean I suppose in the abstract there might be potential but
02:29:58 abstract there might be potential but there was Zero public disorder through marches and blockades so you know the likelihood of that happening would be minute and it never happened okay so that's the sense in which uh which I disagree with him
02:30:12 disagree with him um uh
02:30:14 um uh and yeah it had no potential to cause a challenge in respect of public order so yes CN D was not subversive never was
02:30:32 yes CN D was not subversive never was never has been um and it did not um have potential for public disorder through marches and blockades thank you I want to move on to a different different topic now please miss Hudson yeah uh and
02:30:44 yeah uh and um can I ask you was the is it fair to say that that those who uh supported CND or were members of
02:30:58 or were members of CND they were made up of people from all backgrounds and walks of life and of diverse political opinion is that a fair observation yes C andd is and always was a very broad Church including people
02:31:14 a very broad Church including people from all walks of life all faiths and none poit different political perspectives and none and as I've stressed previously we were uh in
02:31:25 stressed previously we were uh in essence a deeply moral organization um organizing uh to change government policy to bring an end to Britain's
02:31:36 policy to bring an end to Britain's possession of nuclear weapons and also uh campaigning for a world free of nuclear
02:31:38 nuclear weapons I want to ask you about um something else that uh the undercover officer John Kerry said in his witness statement and I think this time it
02:31:54 statement and I think this time it probably would be useful have it up on the screen uh so MPS 0743
02:32:06 186 uh and if we could go to page 30 please
02:32:23 uh I think then yes over the page to page 31 forgive
02:32:37 me thank you and um just focus in on paragraph 91
02:32:42 please uh and there
02:32:52 um the uh Undercover officer is addressing a report dated the 19th of May
02:32:56 May 1981 uh which deals with an attempt it's said by an organization called Revolution youth to take over the sanas branch of cndd because it appears to be a typical uh uh Trot trisk
02:33:12 a typical uh uh Trot trisk tactic um and the um officer goes on to say this as far as I'm aware uh CND uh was originally a Communist Party of Great Britain controlled organization uh which was therefore
02:33:29 organization uh which was therefore Soviet control throughout the 1960s and less rigidly Soviet influenced during the
02:33:30 the 1970s in keeping with the politics of the time trus groups uh used to try to diminish
02:33:38 diminish cpgb uh control and push their own agenda including seizing control uh where
02:33:50 possible is there any accuracy uh in the assertion that um CND was a cpgb controlled or Soviet controlled or Soviet influenced
02:34:02 Soviet influenced organization uh none whatsoever I mean that that is absolute complete nonsense as anyone who knows anything about the history of CND will know I mean I
02:34:15 history of CND will know I mean I mentioned earlier on about some of the eminent figures and uh leading church people and Military figures that have been involved in in CN from its founding uh throughout so this I'm I'm very sorry
02:34:26 uh throughout so this I'm I'm very sorry that any government department or anyone has received this misinformation and has made any kind of political decision or other decision on the basis of
02:34:39 other decision on the basis of it could we look at uh another document please um ucpi 17271 which should be at B93 of the hard copy bundle
02:34:50 it's
02:35:09 17271 uh and um this is um a report dated the 16th of March uh 1982 attributed to um John carry and it deals with a dispute
02:35:22 carry and it deals with a dispute between the green and common peace camp and National CND but I I just want to look at something it says at the beginning of paragraph 4 which is this the above incident does however uh highlight a recent development within CND following allegations in the press
02:35:35 CND following allegations in the press that cndd receives uh financial support from the USSR National CND has not only opened its books to disprove the
02:35:48 opened its books to disprove the allegations but has also made strenuous efforts to discourage support uh from cpg
02:35:55 cpg B um just drawing on what you know Miss Hudson about the the history of the campaign is it is it right that um CND did reveal its its accounts um I have no idea but I have
02:36:07 accounts um I have no idea but I have seen it referred to um on a number of occasions so I assume that is the case I mean certainly CN D now and I don't know for how long always annually publishes
02:36:27 for how long always annually publishes all it accounts it's a matter of public record on the website prior to that I guess before websites I guess it was made available in other words um in other forms but just just to say just a little more um about this I mean this this allegation of somehow kind of complicity with the USSR that was seemed
02:36:41 complicity with the USSR that was seemed to be uh developing around that time and to the extent that our general secretary monor Bruce Kent at that time offered a
02:36:54 monor Bruce Kent at that time offered a prize of100 to anyone who could provide evidence that CND received money from the USSR and of course no one ever came forward to claim it so I think it was a um yeah a kind of malicious perhaps
02:37:10 um yeah a kind of malicious perhaps politically motivated piece of bad faith to suggest um something like that was true and of course one can only surmise that because we were winning a lot of uh popular support for a change in
02:37:26 popular support for a change in government policy away from receiving cruise missiles that um somehow for political motivation um there were attempts to smear CND and suggest that it was something that it
02:37:40 wasn't there was no um embargo on uh members of CND or its supporters associating with activity
02:37:54 supporters associating with activity going on in the Soviet States as right I've no I doubt it but I don't know I mean can we just figure CN D was an enormous organization you know we didn't tend to um exert rules and controls on our members other than that they
02:38:10 our members other than that they supported cnd's policies and its kind of code of
02:38:17 code of behavior just look at an example uh it's not in the hard copy bundle but it's ucpi 2524
02:38:20 ucpi 2524 1 ucpi
02:38:30 25241 which for anybody's no is at B 438 of the hard copy bundle although I don't think so it's in your your bundle it's a report um attributed to Tim
02:38:37 Tim Spence dated the 14th of March
02:38:53 1986 um and relates to um an invitation that was um afforded um to the Secretary of the London region CND to an International Conference on disarmament being organized by the Soviet peace uh committee uh and we can see um that uh
02:39:07 committee uh and we can see um that uh paragraph two that a vote was taken uh and the vast majority agreed that that
02:39:19 and the vast majority agreed that that individual should be able to attend uh that um event on behalf um on behalf half of the region uh so does it does it follow from that or is that an example where we can see there was no prohibition or uh control on
02:39:31 no prohibition or uh control on individual members and supporters having anything to do with anything going on in the Soviet States well this is talking about a an
02:39:47 States well this is talking about a an International Conference on disarmament being organized by the Soviet peace committee um and to the best of my knowledge CND has always and still um is always keen on discussion and
02:39:58 always keen on discussion and dialogue um so it wouldn't surprise me that individuals or even representatives of CND uh might engage in an International Conference called by such
02:40:11 International Conference called by such a committee doesn't uh imply support uh for the politics of the state from which that committee is coming um but it
02:40:22 that committee is coming um but it suggests an openness to dialogue to engage with peace activists from other countries um and to kind of Advance the dialogue for peace and disarmament so
02:40:34 dialogue for peace and disarmament so this doesn't seem particularly strange to me at all how how much um interchange there was with um organizations from other countries or indeed from the
02:40:47 other countries or indeed from the Soviet block I don't know but dialogue is something that CN has always uh subscribed to in the interests of a more peaceful
02:40:54 peaceful world thank you I just want to look now with you at a couple of examples of what was being said in the course of some of the intelligence reporting about um
02:41:06 the intelligence reporting about um representatives of other groups within CND all right and can we start with um ucpi 15331
02:41:19 which should be at B25 of the hard copy
02:41:31 bundle wonder if that could be magnified slightly thank you that's a report dated the 18th of May 1981 attributed to hn 65 uh John Kerry and it's an intelligence report
02:41:44 Kerry and it's an intelligence report about what was reported to have been an attempt by a group called Revolution youth which I won't take you to it but it's suggested by h65 in his witness statement to be a Trotsky influence group trotskyist influen
02:41:56 group trotskyist influen group and the report suggests that um there was an attempt by that group to take control of the sanas group of of
02:42:09 take control of the sanas group of of CND do you see that yes I can see that you and then the next example uh that I'd like you to have a look at please is B uh forgive me is uh ucpi 15339
02:42:21 uh ucpi 15339 which is a report we've already looked at actually but should be at B27 of the hard copy
02:42:56 bundle and uh this uh as I think um I've already pointed out today is uh a report attributed to uh John Kerry stated a 19th of May 1981 uh and it relates to a CN conference over the weekend of the 9th of May
02:43:04 of May 1981 and I just want to look at something it's said at paragraph 7 of that report please thank you now what's reported there is um a
02:43:15 you now what's reported there is um a further uh sentiment arising from the conference uh was the verant opposition expressed by the vast majority to
02:43:27 expressed by the vast majority to attempts by the Socialist Workers Party and the international Marxist group to take over the campaign do you see that M I do yes thank
02:43:45 you and then another report we've already considered this is B uh forgive me ucpi 17164 ucpi
02:43:54 ucpi 17164 uh which should be at b75 of the hard copy
02:44:02 bundle and it's a report um dated the 11th of February
02:44:15 1982 uh it is attributed to hm65 John Kerry uh as I think we've uh mentioned before principally it's about growth within CND but I just want to look at what it says at paragraphs four and five please um paragraph four begins those involved with national and Regional
02:44:33 involved with national and Regional organization believe that CND D's main strength lies in the large amount of support which at present is attracts their field of activity is aimed at swaying uh large bodies of
02:44:44 aimed at swaying uh large bodies of influential opinion at trade uh trade unions the media Church groups politicians doctors and teachers this area of activity causes considerable infighting as groups with vested interests try to move the campaign in
02:45:01 interests try to move the campaign in the same direction as their own politic politics or beliefs that major lobbies within this field are the labor party the Communist Party of Great Britain uh Christians and to a lesser extent the Socialist Workers Party and the international Marxist
02:45:12 international Marxist group despite the considerable energies channeled into the campaign by the above organizations the indications are that no single political body is remotely close to
02:45:27 political body is remotely close to controlling its overall direction indeed the
02:45:28 the cpgb has seen its influence wne quite dramatically as CND has developed the reverse can be stated of the trotskyist organizations with reference to trade Union work and the establishing
02:45:43 Union work and the establishing International uh peace links I think that says although there is no foreseeable likelihood of their
02:45:54 foreseeable likelihood of their influence growing in other CND fields of activity and in particular uh the CND National
02:46:03 Council um again just drawing on your own experience and what you know as a historian of the campaign uh is there any Merit in the
02:46:18 campaign uh is there any Merit in the suggestion that certain political groups or subverse Ive groups try to become dominant within uh factions of CND or try and take factions of it over was this dated 1981 this is dated
02:46:38 over was this dated 1981 this is dated 1982 82 yes yes I mean I've just would as a kind of side point um point out that this is in 1982 it's clear that those reporting on this consider that this is like a completely minor thing
02:46:52 completely minor thing and is is uh no single political body is remotely close to controlling its overall direction you know because it was a mass broad-based popular organization so you know I've sort of again have this concern as to why this
02:47:03 again have this concern as to why this surveillance continued when it was clear um that that wasn't uh a problem I would also uh just raise the terminology in
02:47:15 also uh just raise the terminology in this report again in point four there um line four where it says their field of activity is at swaying large bodies of influential opinion and we're talking
02:47:26 influential opinion and we're talking about um cnd's you know main structures and bodies and and there's something about the use of the word swaying which suggests that it's kind of illegitimate in some way or that it's kind of trying to pull the wool over people's eyes
02:47:40 to pull the wool over people's eyes where in actual fact as I've said um before cnd's goal was to win public opinion to change government policy with regard to nuclear weapons weapons and
02:47:51 regard to nuclear weapons weapons and with particularly with regard to Trident and crw so I don't sort of like the premise on which this uh comment is
02:48:03 premise on which this uh comment is based um it seems to me that there was I can't remember what your question was now apiz no not at all um what I was asking was in your uh experience and drawing on your knowledge uh is there
02:48:15 drawing on your knowledge uh is there any Merit in any suggestion that certain political groups sought to become dominant or take over certain factions within CND at this time I'm not quite sure what you mean by factions within CND whether it's influenced at a branch
02:48:31 CND whether it's influenced at a branch level Regional level National level okay in the structures of CND D um I'm not aware of any attempts to do so um clearly there were people uh members of CND who had particular political affiliations and they would um make
02:48:46 affiliations and they would um make contributions based on their strongly held views and so on or what they thought was would be right for CND uh but those in political minorities clearly very much uh remained political
02:49:03 clearly very much uh remained political minorities with CND and didn't sway the kind of mass broad perspective of the organization um interesting to see Christians list there listed there amongst those organizations um and you said something
02:49:14 organizations um and you said something about subversive I mean as far as I know whether or not one subscribes to any of the views of these organizations they're not illegal organizations you know they're not kind of proscribed
02:49:26 they're not kind of proscribed organizations in any sense and of course CND D was a a broad church and people didn't have to be politically vetted or pass a test kind of political correctness test in order to join you
02:49:40 correctness test in order to join you know so there were many diverse views within CND D but only a as again referring to r two annexes in the first instance you know CN D's policies and
02:49:51 instance you know CN D's policies and sort of program in 1958 and our aims and objectives now they are pretty much virtually the same you know so nothing um no diverse range of views from kind
02:50:03 um no diverse range of views from kind of minority groups has ever swayed CND off its broad approach um which makes this kind of infiltration and continued
02:50:14 this kind of infiltration and continued infiltration once it's become clear that any of these perceived problems aren't actually problems that it should continue uh for such a long time is quite
02:50:20 quite extraordinary I think you've probably answered my next question but I want to put it to you directly all right but during the 1980s and early
02:50:31 during the 1980s and early 1990s did any political organization or group or movement at any point become dominant or overly influential within CND absolutely
02:50:43 not could we look um next at uh ucpi 29
02:50:56 239 uh which should be a tab uh C4 of the hard copy bundle that's ucpi
02:51:24 29239 and this is um a uh Security Service n for file uh that's dated um 8th of March 1984 and it relates to a meeting between SDS management and and the security service and I just want to look at uh
02:51:39 service and I just want to look at uh something it says center of the first paragraph
02:51:46 paragraph um so we can see uh 1 2 3 4 about six lines down it says that the SDS assessment forgive me SDS said that their assessment was that there was no
02:51:57 their assessment was that there was no effective ring of subverse uh subversive unduly influencing the Democratic uh structure of CND do you see that Miss Hudson I can yes thank you and then another uh document um along the same
02:52:10 another uh document um along the same lines that I'd like you to have a look at
02:52:11 at please
02:52:12 please um this one is ucpi 29305 it should be at tab C13 of the hard copy bundle ucpi
02:52:32 29305 uh and again just focusing on the first paragraph of this Security Service loose minute dated the 2nd of October 1985 uh it states the uh 1985 CND annual conference is scheduled to take place
02:52:44 conference is scheduled to take place from the 15th to the 17th of November in Sheffield City Hall as you now ask study of subversive influences within CND has been reduced considerably uh since we reached the conclusion that while CND
02:52:58 reached the conclusion that while CND does include a large number of people who are also members of subversive groups uh their impact on CND is is limited do you see that yes I do thank
02:53:15 you now um Miss Hudson those documents are dated March 1984 and October 19 1985
02:53:29 are dated March 1984 and October 19 1985 respectively uh and um again I just want to ask you drawing on your knowledge of the
02:53:29 the [Music]
02:53:35 [Music] campaign in the years in advance or approaching uh 1984 1985 drawing from on what you know was was there any realistic possibility of subversive
02:53:47 subversive groups significantly influencing or controlling CND at any level would you mind defining subversive groups please good question
02:54:01 good question uh uh groups that seek to overthrow the state is the the short definition okay
02:54:25 zero um again drawing on your knowledge uh in your view in the early part of the 1980s before Security Service interest appeared to decline as as we see in those
02:54:26 those documents could there have been any legitimate concern of CND being unduly
02:54:39 legitimate concern of CND being unduly influenced or taken over at any level by subversive or political groups no none whatsoever and I I think it's even though that I think that it's clear from other material that it was known
02:54:53 other material that it was known throughout that CND didn't present any of that kind of risk it's unfortunate that in in 1983 um CND was subject to what what one could describe as a massive unfounded political attack um from you know parts
02:55:16 political attack um from you know parts of government in fact you know which was um very detrimental to CD and the the good faith in which its members and supporters acted to try and change government policy well you've brought me on to my next topic which is 1983 U Miss Hudson and I want to look at with you
02:55:29 Hudson and I want to look at with you please your appendix 3 which is a A4 of the hard copy bundle uh your appendix
02:55:48 3 um so for the benefit um
02:55:50 um of uh the operation of the technology this is uh one of the appendices to um the CND witness
02:56:02 statement uh ucpi 3 6931
02:56:25 thank you uh and um this is a document that um you submitted I think Miss Hudson with your um witness statement is that right yes I believe so it's not in my it's not in my Annex don't have it in hard copy all right look uh if we could
02:56:38 hard copy all right look uh if we could focus on the screen please and if you're struggling we'll see if we can get a copy to you but uh it's a letter I think from Michael heseltine Member of Parliament who was uh defense secretary at the time to conservative MPS and candidates in
02:56:54 to conservative MPS and candidates in marginal seats dated the 22nd of April 1983 is that
02:57:05 right I can't see a DAT the date is well take it from me the date appears at the last page of the letter 22nd of April 1983 okay thank
02:57:16 1983 okay thank you um and um I think it's right that in 1983 there was a general election held on the 9th of June is that correct that's correct right
02:57:25 and I just want to look at something that's uh stated in the letter uh at page one um which is uh I'm just looking at the second paragraph Secretary of State's assertion
02:57:36 paragraph Secretary of State's assertion there that it was official CND policy to oppose conservative marginals during the campaign do you see that where is that second p on the left
02:57:49 that where is that second p on the left hand side as look at it second paragraph down two two sentence paragraph I thought therefore oh thought it would there right about all right and then the con
02:57:59 con concluding part of the third paragraph just below that says this that they so that's cndr an organization LED and
02:58:10 that's cndr an organization LED and dominated by leftwing activists ranging through the labor party uh to the the Communist Party do you see that I do H and I just want to go over the page please to page three
02:58:25 now and there's
02:58:32 some uh narrative about the purpose of CND and right at the top there it says that purpose this is page two that purpose is the advance of the Socialist and communist cause do you see that I
02:58:47 that I do uh so I just put that in front of you for for context because uh we we know um that there was a general election in 1983 uh we know that the uh defense
02:59:01 1983 uh we know that the uh defense secretary adopted a particular position in relation to the campaign and I just want to look at some of the intelligence reporting in the context of of of in that context do you follow I do thank
02:59:14 that context do you follow I do thank you first document I'd like to look at please is
02:59:16 please is ucpi uh one 5834 that's ucpi
02:59:28 5834 that's ucpi 15834 it should be at tab B uh 174 of the hard copy
02:59:42 bundle uh and this is a report and to be fair about it ought to make clear predates the uh election by some
02:59:46 some months uh it's dated the 27th of October uh of 19 882 uh but but a paragraph 2 um relates to the London region cnd's plans for a campaign in relation to the
03:00:01 plans for a campaign in relation to the forthcoming general election I just want to just read out what what was reported it says London region of the campaign for nuclear disarmament has prepared plans for a campaign at the next general election in order to
03:00:13 next general election in order to provide more information about the campaign the following decisions have been taken uh one a pilot campaign will
03:00:26 been taken uh one a pilot campaign will be launched for one weekend in February 1983 and will involve petitioning and door-to-door canvasing in the prime minister's constituency of Finchley uh two uh a general election fund will be set up and three an election pledge will be taken by people uh who would be prepared to take a week off work to
03:00:38 prepared to take a week off work to campaign prior to the election do you
03:00:49 campaign prior to the election do you see that I do thank you uh and then um next document please is uh
03:00:50 is uh ucpi
03:01:01 16955 uh 16955 which should be at um tab b187 of the hard copy
03:01:19 bundle thank you now this uh this report uh was put together in uh 1983 it's dat of the 2nd of February 1983 again attributed to hm65 John Kerry and paragraphs 2 and three says this the campaign for nuclear disarmament is uh inscense uh recent press reports that
03:01:32 inscense uh recent press reports that the conservative party intends to use the Jay Walter Thompson publicity agency to counter their arguments in an attempt to minimize the effects of this new
03:01:44 to minimize the effects of this new development someone a member of Hamstead CND and husband of someone else a voluntary worker at cndd headquarters has offered to make contact with a friend who works at the publicity agency with a view to obtaining prior
03:01:59 with a view to obtaining prior information on any planned publicity campaign do you see that I
03:02:11 do do you have any observations about that what you've seen um regarding an undercover police officer reporting about cnd's
03:02:24 officer reporting about cnd's plans uh in advance of a forthcoming general
03:02:32 election well I just like to start off by saying something about um cnd's electoral policy as I know it certainly since I've been involved in the
03:02:47 since I've been involved in the leadership um which is that we don't support uh individual candidates we don't don't uh put up individual candidates what we've done recently and indeed did uh earlier this month is to um canvas all candidates to find out
03:02:58 um canvas all candidates to find out what their views are on CND issues like nuclear weapons for example um and make that information publicly available um and then we also use it for internal
03:03:10 and then we also use it for internal reasons uh to contact elected MPS who were sympathetic to our views and asked them to join Parliament CND which is a
03:03:22 them to join Parliament CND which is a cross party parliamentary group um I'm not absolutely clear from uh Michael heslin's letter um what exactly uh CND D's policy was during that election so
03:03:34 D's policy was during that election so when he says you know they're targeting your marginals or whatever I'm not quite sure what CND is actually called for so
03:03:46 sure what CND is actually called for so um that I don't know but it sounds to me from the London region um election campaign that they are clearly going to be going out raising awareness about the policies of
03:04:02 raising awareness about the policies of the different parties um as you may know um the opposition leader at that time was Michael foot who was one of the
03:04:14 was Michael foot who was one of the founders of CND and uh while he had been um in the leadership of the labor party labor had again taken up a policy of supporting nuclear disarmament it previously had that policy around 1960 um so it may well be that I'm sure many individuals um and CN members
03:04:28 many individuals um and CN members wanted to support labor because it had a policy of nuclear disarmament so but I
03:04:45 policy of nuclear disarmament so but I don't know formally what the position of um CND D was at that time but it seems to me uh to be perfectly uh right and proper that CND would want to share information if this was indeed the
03:04:58 information if this was indeed the intention of of uh the different parties uh political positions and to encourage people to vote for um candidates who opposed nucle who opposed nuclear weapons and supported nuclear disarmament and can I just come back to the question which is really how do you feel about the fact that an undercover officer seems to be reporting about cnd's plans in advance of a general
03:05:14 cnd's plans in advance of a general election well it makes one think of course that there was a kind of a political motivation you know rather than understanding it as
03:05:25 than understanding it as CND um is a a campaigning organization a kind of lobbying group and a lot of campaigning members and supporters um who have a right to support put forward and support a policy of nuclear
03:05:36 and support a policy of nuclear disarmament and to encourage uh a government that supports that uh to somehow see it as uh illegitimate that
03:05:48 somehow see it as uh illegitimate that um an anti-nuclear organization should be um perhaps supporting anti-nuclear
03:05:57 candidates just want to take you to um some um later documents now um and the first is uh ucpi
03:06:13 29255 um that is 29255 which should be at C12 of the hard copy bundle
03:06:38 uh now this uh document dated the 28th of January 1985 is uh record of a security service meeting uh with uh the special demonstration Squad
03:06:57 uh and I just uh want to take you to uh something that's said in the third paragraph um just before conclusion um says this Tony weight uh who was
03:07:08 weight uh who was uh DCI at the time the SDS it implied that in light of the Parliamentary Select Committee PSB so Metropolitan Police Special
03:07:20 PSB so Metropolitan Police Special Branch we're looking again at their penetration of of CND do you see that I do and I won't um spend a huge amount of
03:07:34 do and I won't um spend a huge amount of time on it but just to just again to put it in in context and I think um you mentioned this in your witness statement Miss Hudson but there was a parliamentary select committee that um
03:07:49 parliamentary select committee that um looked at uh special Branch uh over the course of 1984 and 1985 and debated or examined uh certain revelations in in relation to CND uh one being um an investigation of
03:08:11 CND uh one being um an investigation of a CND an individual CND member under the pretense that um uh she was being investigated for male order fraud uh but but in fact it was her membership of CN that attra Ed uh special Branch's attention is that is
03:08:26 special Branch's attention is that is that right that's correct and the second disclosures made by a former MI5 desk officer uh about special Branch um
03:08:37 officer uh about special Branch um agents uh within CND uh and her opinion that interest in the campaign was more political than anything else is that right that's correct
03:08:46 correct so in uh January 1985 we can see that it suggested that uh the SS were we're reconsidering their position in relation to
03:08:56 to CND um can we look then at 29274 please it's ucpi 29274 which should be at tab c17 of the hard copy
03:09:24 bundle and this is another uh security uh service record of a meeting between um itself and uh the S SDS detective Chief Inspector dated the 15th of October
03:09:30 October 1986 uh paragraph 2 uh says this DCI weight said that the CND Source uh which is uh I'm just going to pause there that Source it's referring to Tim
03:09:39 to Tim Spence uh would shortly be retiring and asked whether we would wish to support a successor in that organization uh for was adamant that there was no such requirement do do you see that I dok
03:09:57 you and again just to put this in context I think you're aware um that uh
03:10:09 aware um that uh h88 uh Tim Spence continued reporting on CND uh up until 1986 is that right yes thank
03:10:14 thank you next document I just want to look at uh in this context is uh you U CPI
03:10:23 29277 that's ucpi [Music]
03:10:28 [Music] 29277 it should be at c18 of the hard copy
03:10:36 bundle and I just want to look at um this is forgive me it's another Security Service file note uh regarding a meeting with the STS detective Chief Inspector
03:10:48 detective Chief Inspector um this is Malcolm McLoud this time uh and February 1987 at paragraph two we could just focus in on that this is what's being said uh the next recruit
03:11:02 is what's being said uh the next recruit will if mccloud's Masters have their way be targeted against those members of uh peace movements SL CND who might become involved in direct action do you see that I do
03:11:15 action do you see that I do yes let Cav Ed with McLoud himself would prefer to deploy an officer into the RCP or rcg did you see that
03:11:33 yes can I just ask so as a result of that what happened well I I I'm going to ask you a question if I may the way this this this sit this uh process operat
03:11:46 this this sit this uh process operat sorry but we know it's a fair question we know h and88 um infil deployment ended in 1987 all right but what I wanted to ask you is that given what we've seen and given
03:11:59 that given what we've seen and given that by the mid 1980s there seemed to be a general acceptance as I think you've already pointed out that there was little if any subversive influence within
03:12:04 within CN how do you first of all feel that infiltration of the campaign did as a matter of fact Carry On Through To
03:12:18 1986 well you you just said that it was clear from the mid 80s but I think from the documents it looks to me like it was clear long before that um that that wasn't the case um and so um in terms of
03:12:35 wasn't the case um and so um in terms of um what you were saying about the select committee you know what Kathy masseter said um you know she used this term you know that it was for political reasons
03:12:50 know that it was for political reasons and given the uh general election in 198 3 where as I just mentioned there was a kind of massive smear campaign against CND attempting to suggest so I think CN D was sort of equated with communist
03:13:02 D was sort of equated with communist neutralists and defeatists and so on you know so really uh unacceptable uh practice in our democracy um it seems to me that that there must have been a political
03:13:13 there must have been a political motivation given there was no objective reason from the kind of stated reasons as as to why CND was under surveillance and that it should continue to 86 and
03:13:25 and that it should continue to 86 and even perhaps considered um in ' 87 seems to me to be quite shocking I but I suppose the most um concerning matter is
03:13:36 suppose the most um concerning matter is um the kind of attacks on CND uh in 1983 and the the attempts to undermine its absolutely legitimate um role in raising public awareness about uh a government policy which was based on weapons of
03:13:48 policy which was based on weapons of mass destruction which were already at that point um uh supposed to be disarmed under international law just turning the focus back onto
03:14:14 law just turning the focus back onto this special demonstration Squad what do you think of the suggestions that we've just seen on behalf of the SDs that an infiltration um into cendy might continue or might have been merited once Tim Spence since sens his deployment came to an end well it seems
03:14:31 absurd so I have a little more uh left um on um some discret um subject matters I don't think I'd be able to wrap it up in the next five minutes would that be a convenient moment you want to break now
03:14:44 convenient moment you want to break now rather than in five minutes time yes yes certainly it would be in which case we will start at 5 to two thank you very much
03:14:47 much all