HN119 provides extensive evidence about undercover infiltration of the Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist) and the Revolutionary Communist Party. Key themes include lack of guidance on intrusive reporting, building and betraying friendships particularly with Tom Graham, reporting driven by Security Service requests, surveillance of cultural events and elected representatives, personal relationships between undercover officers and activists, and knowledge of HN67 fathering a child while undercover.
00:19:27 e e
00:20:19 yes thank you sir hn9 just before I move on to your deployment proper into the RC pbml um you mentioned before lunch that you thought that the decision to Target that group I think you used the phrase six of one and half a dozen of another
00:20:30 six of one and half a dozen of another as between you and your managers yes it did yes was there any formal process that was gone through to authorize your deployment into a group if there was anything in the background I don't know there may have been but I just don't
00:20:41 there may have been but I just don't know so you didn't see any paperwork anything of that nature authorizing your deployment not the decision- making nor the
00:20:51 the authorization you mentioned I think you were aware that the group had been targeted by before by an officer known as
00:20:57 as hn13 that is correct did did that influence the decision um of as to which group you would deploy into it all the fact that it had been
00:21:08 into it all the fact that it had been deployed into before I doubt if it had any relevance I not privy to all the discussions at a higher level but it certainly didn't influence my thinking and to what extent if at all did the fact that you had been involved in
00:21:21 fact that you had been involved in choosing the group act as an incentive to you to want to justify your deployment once you got in there that would be a human reaction but just how far it could be taken I can't really
00:21:36 far it could be taken I can't really estimate I'm going to move now to your deployment proper and in your witness statement you say that getting into the group was a gradual process but your
00:21:48 group was a gradual process but your your estimate is that by mid to late 1981 you were fully involved in the group that's pretty much correct yes excuse me can I ask you to have a look at um it's a security service document it's b 26a sir and ucpi 032
00:22:17 543 thank you and if you could go down I think P should be page well before actually before we do just hn9 so that you can understand what we're looking at it's headed brief guide to subversion in Great Britain and at the top right hand corner it's refers to the Revolutionary
00:22:28 corner it's refers to the Revolutionary Comm Communist Party of Britain Marxist leninist and it's not obvious from that uh page but we know this to be dated in 1984 so it's towards the end of your
00:22:39 1984 so it's towards the end of your deployment as a whole and after you had in fact left this group is that right yeah I just want to confirm you did say 1984 yes understood thank you um so but it's a security service document if we go down to par to page three
00:23:01 please um and the top paragraph uh thank you towards the end of the
00:23:12 uh thank you towards the end of the paragraph do you see it says recruitment is By Invitation Only I haven't found that yet highlighted for you on the screen oh yes it can yes yes I see that was that your experience of the group
00:23:28 experience of the group um they depend how you define the term recruitment uh certainly I gradually approach them through various means particular engaging Tom Graham in conversation when he was selling papers outside Brixton um
00:23:39 um um if if this is relevant uh yesterday's witness um I believe I'm correct in saying in his statement referred to me applying for Preparation re membership the candidate membership yes yeah um in fact as I recall that
00:23:55 fact as I recall that um Tom Graham as an intermediary said that Mr chant would like to go for a
00:24:05 that Mr chant would like to go for a drink with me and there was a very vague discussion uh if he remembered sorry if he mentioned at all the possibility of me becoming officially a probational member I don't recall that certainly I don't recall at all saying I would like to apply to be a member or words or words that effect so I don't don't know
00:24:25 words that effect so I don't don't know how much can be read into recruitment is By Invitation Only your your experience was a relatively loose way into the group nothing formal by way of membership that you recall that's correct
00:24:30 correct yes can we take that document down please um and can we put up hn1 19's witness statement MPS 0747 710 please 0747 710 page
00:24:51 25 and paragraph 63 please
00:25:11 h19 you say here my deployment into the RCP BML was very much a case of sucket and C that is to say to feel my way along go to meetings build build friendships and see what happens yes I R you so far does that describe how you went about
00:25:29 it it's pretty accurate it says friendships in the plural um my main uh Probably sounds a bit uh repetitive uh Tom Gram was very much the person with whom I spent time but obviously I knew other people as well but I wouldn't have classified them as friends to to what
00:25:43 classified them as friends to to what extent does that sucket and C approach reflect what you understood to be the expectation of your managers doesn't really give me any understanding of what the expectations was um what was your what was your understanding of their expectation that
00:25:56 understanding of their expectation that it was up to me to see what I could find out that was worthwhile and did perhaps to determine what was Earth well so more or less along the lines as you set out there yes I mean Su Andy is a bit
00:26:07 there yes I mean Su Andy is a bit colloquial but that's essentially it were you given any guidance by your managers about the extent to which you should build friendships how close you could get how intrusively you could
00:26:20 could get how intrusively you could report on people personally no that was totally up to the individual's
00:26:27 discretion when you um formed the friendship with Tom Graham did you at any point consider the impact on him of the fact that you were not who you said you
00:26:42 you were um I didn't at the time I recall um in the early stages of this inquiry I had a circular inviting me to name any people who might have been shocked and distressed if they discovered that their
00:26:55 distressed if they discovered that their in some cases their L but in other cases just a good friend had been not what they seem to be I think had Tom still been alive I would have nominated him but he was deceased by that time because I think you say in your statement that
00:27:08 I think you say in your statement that he took it as quite a body blow when you left that's the phrase that you yes he did yes that you use so it had an impact on him as an individual certainly yes did you give any consideration to that
00:27:22 did you give any consideration to that either before befriending him or at the time that you left the group I gave it consideration but analytically it was something that had to be done so I I made a clean break and said where to the effect of we're not getting anywhere I didn't say that I was going off to the other
00:27:30 other group did you ever give any consideration to whether becoming involved in a group in that way and then leaving quite suddenly had the potential to destabilize or affect the group
00:27:43 to destabilize or affect the group itself no that thought really did not cross my
00:27:45 cross my mind and when you left the group it didn't bring any suspicion on you did it from the RCP BML you went your separate way and that
00:28:04 way and that was I'm not in a position to say really by chance I bumped into Tom some weeks or months later and he was just a bit sort of non-committal but a fairly genial old Tom and um that was the only indication I might have had that any effect that uh my departure might have had on the C but it didn't cause you
00:28:16 had on the C but it didn't cause you concern for example that you might be about to be confronted as an undercover officer as a spy or something not at all no
00:28:38 how did you decide what to commit to your reports once you were deployed what information to include and what not to include it would be going back on the the two main thrusts the public order situation and uh subversion or I know it's not entirely answering
00:28:50 or I know it's not entirely answering the question in the terms in which you put it but certainly for most of the time what I did was going along with what Tom was doing and uh once I got the material I I don't know that I was that analytical about deciding whether to
00:29:05 analytical about deciding whether to include it or exclude it could we have a look at your witness statement please 0747
00:29:07 0747 710 page
00:29:14 33 paragraph 89 at the top there
00:29:22 please you were asked um in the request that was sent to you for a witness statement about what appear to be gaps in your reporting in so far as the inquiries Lo ated it so certain months where there didn't appear to be any reporting do you recall
00:29:35 reporting do you recall that and what you said here is if there was nothing worthy of attention then either I wouldn't have put in a report or I would have put in a report of no significance the office may have been tactful and shredded a report of no
00:29:48 tactful and shredded a report of no significance that I submitted as it would not have helped justify my deployment I just want to ask you some questions about that paragraph please firstly do I understand you to be saying that if nothing that you learned
00:30:02 that if nothing that you learned amounted to what you consider to be useful intelligence bearing in mind the questions of public order and subversion if you didn't find anything that seemed to you to be useful you might take the
00:30:15 to you to be useful you might take the decision to report nothing at all rather than report all the information you'd hoovered up to use a colloquial phrase that's
00:30:26 correct as to um what you say there about the office um may have been tactful and shredded a report of no significance do you know of examples of the office shading reports that you
00:30:39 the office shading reports that you submitted or any other officer submitted no that's speculation reasonable speculation but speculation on my part and finally can I ask you about this within that speculation you say that the reason what you seem to be offering up
00:30:55 reason what you seem to be offering up as a reason why they might have shredded a report that it would not have helped to justify your deployment did you see part of the purpose of your written reports as justifying your continued
00:31:04 continued deployment I would say if I've got the
00:31:15 deployment I would say if I've got the chronology correct it may not have been made explicit to me yet but I think um you appreciate that I was sort of not far from leaving the RC pbml and being retargeted on the RCP now whether there was any ever coners conversation that
00:31:26 was any ever coners conversation that said well just take a two a few weeks off or we don't expect much from you for the time being because You' be going up I don't know it may have been that sort of
00:31:35 of situation so I'm not I'm not sure I quite follow that as an answer my my question was did you see it as any purpose of your reporting to justify your own
00:31:45 your own deployment I don't think I would have deliberately put in reports of no value whatsoever simply to say where I was perhaps a slightly different point
00:31:59 was perhaps a slightly different point when you you were crafting your reports writing your reports and you were deciding what to commit to
00:32:06 commit to writing did justifying your deployment ever motivate you to include information or to express yourself in a certain way in so far as I can search my soul and be honest about that
00:32:27 no can we have a look at some of the reporting you did submit on this group um it's C3 sir in your bundle you see CPI
00:32:29 CPI 015
00:32:44 392 can we just if we just look at the top half of the page please to begin with um hn1 19 this is a report from the 15th of June 1981 so early months of your
00:32:55 your deployment and um from the inquiry's point of view in terms of what's been found quite possibly the earliest report you submitted on the RCP BML that sounds quite
00:33:06 quite feasible we see that it concerns a conference Against Racism and fascism attended by representatives of over 50 left-wing groups that's paragraph two do you see
00:33:26 that yes I see it and described as stage managed by the Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain Marxist
00:33:34 yep do you have any recollection of whether when you attended this meeting you considered yourself already to be targeting the RCP BML or was it a bit looser than that at the time I don't know that I can ever say I actually
00:33:49 know that I can ever say I actually became a full member um certainly not at that stage um the sort of loose status is probably more appropriate and the uh conference itself was expressed to be anti-racist
00:34:01 was expressed to be anti-racist anti-fascist against RAC ISM and fascism was that typical of the the sorts of um events that the RC pbml would have involved itself in typically would be the correct adjective can we look please at the conclusion of the report at paragraph
00:34:23 10 sorry actually we better look at seven first just to set the context I'm sorry about that
00:34:31 from paragraph 7 hn1
00:34:41 19 we see towards the end of that paragraph the final resolution of the conference was the announcement of the formation of a national organizing
00:34:55 formation of a national organizing committee for a people's Democratic front to implement the aims of the conference
00:35:04 I think we we mentioned before lunch the people's Democratic front which you saw as a closely aligned a more popular version of the RCP BML I actually use the word watered down yes thank
00:35:15 you and then if we go to now please to paragraph 10 just to look at the
00:35:25 conclusion you said this it is impossible at this stage to predict the activities of the newly formed people's Democratic front it may be that despite the grandio references to a national
00:35:38 the grandio references to a national organizing committee a National Congress hinted at vaguely and a national headquarters the PDF may turn out to be just another discussion group however the known record of
00:35:49 group however the known record of violence on the part of several members of rcpb ML and the fighting talk emanating from many of the delegates indicate that it may feature significantly in future public order
00:36:08 situations as to the um May indicate or indicate that it may feature significantly in future public order situations that was would you agree speculation on your part I would agree that it was speculation on my part and the known record of violence that you
00:36:22 the known record of violence that you refer to is that going back to what we were discussing before lunch what you had discovered in your research rather than what you had witnessed dur it is rather historic rather than of immediate direct significance
00:36:33 direct significance yes can you assist us when you use the phrase fighting talk emanating from many of the delegates what that was a reference
00:36:47 reference to it's difficult to conjure up the sort of atmosphere that the uh the comrades managed but it was not unknown in an assembly such as this for somebody at back to stand up and start shouting uh very strongly worded political slogans uh when I say fighting talk
00:36:58 slogans uh when I say fighting talk doesn't necessarily mean let's go and kill the fascists it's more likely to be just very virent slogans but political slogans rather than violent ones thank
00:37:10 slogans rather than violent ones thank you can I just ask you about one other aspect of this report uh different slightly different topic paragraph four please
00:37:35 I just want to ask you about your use of language you're describing for um individuals here and the third one you use the description an unidentified negro yes I have can you help me with whether that
00:37:49 have can you help me with whether that was considered to be an acceptable way I presume you were describing a black person say can you help me with whether that was considered to be an acceptable way as far as you were concerned of describing a black
00:38:08 describing a black person Society has had several changes since then but just as for example we would no longer refer to a colored person it would be a person of color uh then it was entirely acceptable to describe to somebody as a negro without any denigration in the turn is
00:38:19 without any denigration in the turn is that is that correct in the early 1980s well uh you'd have to put it in historical context that was what I thought at the time I wouldn't have deliberately used it as a form of of insult right so when you you you used it you used it as a term that you
00:38:30 you used it as a term that you considered to be inacceptable usage at the time an objective statement of fact is that the sort of term that you would have heard other SDS or special Branch officers using to describe a black person I can see no reason why they
00:38:53 wouldn't can we uh move please to a different report now it's C5 sir in your bundle ucpi 01566
00:39:18 61 this is a report of the 6th of October of 1981 so we were on the 15th of June now on the 6th of October of 1981 and this is a report uh you will
00:39:32 1981 and this is a report uh you will see that National organizing Committee of people's Democratic front held a conference to form a South London committee within the organization paragraph two do you see that I do yes so further to the conference that you'd attended in June now a conference to
00:39:44 attended in June now a conference to form a committee for the PDF National organizing committee um can we look please at paragraph five of the report
00:40:00 uh you reported here about halfway down the paragraph on the final speaker do you see that the final speaker floor was an unidentified youth from Stockwell attending school in
00:40:14 attending school in pimo who told anecdotes about attacking National front supporters in pimo Market did you give any consideration to the propriety of uh reporting on school-aged children
00:40:32 uh well no I didn't but what was his school age I'm just looking for the text well it says attending school in pimo yes suggest you were still of schooling age no I didn't see any reason not to do
00:40:50 that um the paragraph goes on articulate and insistent he gained acknowledgements from Graham that's Tom Graham who you befriended and privacy that violence would be a legitimate tactic in some circumstances do you see that I do yes what's not detailed there is the
00:41:04 what's not detailed there is the circumstances that were being spoken about do you see that I see it yes was that not important for policing
00:41:18 yes was that not important for policing to understand the circumstances in which it was being suggested that that might be a legitimate tactic if those circumstances were mentioned um I've long forgotten what they were but to take an example if what was being if what was being
00:41:31 what was being suggested um was proportionate and necessary self-defense even if preemptive that would be important for the police to know wouldn't it as opposed to someone suggesting that violence should be
00:41:46 provoked I'm not entirely sure that I follow the uh the the uh the path of your argument um certainly I think as a matter of dare I use the term common
00:41:57 matter of dare I use the term common sense if you are subjected to an assult then you have some sort of right to offense but it would would it not be important for the people who were going to consume your reporting to understand
00:42:08 to consume your reporting to understand whether the group you were infiltrating was advocating self-defense or advocating unprovoked the unprovoked use of violence well as I say had had that been specifically
00:42:21 say had had that been specifically mentioned and if I've just missed it out through negligence then that's my responsibility but uh I really don't know um how I can assist further let's move to another report please ucpi
00:42:33 please ucpi 05476 it's C4
00:42:48 sir and this is we've gone back in time to the 15th of July
00:42:59 1981 and a report again on the national organizing committee of the people's Democratic front of the
00:43:09 PDF um you noted in paragraph two that at least 50 persons attended several of whom were young children with their parents do you see that I do see that uh similarly to the last report did you give any consideration to the propriety of reporting on events that were attended by young children it was
00:43:21 attended by young children it was essentially the event that was the subject of the report not the fact that children attended
00:43:29 did you ever consider as a police officer as an undercover police officer whether it was appropriate for you to be essentially pretending to be someone you weren't in the company of children did that ever certainly not in that context they there are conceivably contexts
00:43:41 they there are conceivably contexts where it would be wrong but not on that
00:43:50 occasion can we look again at the the conclusion um of of the report paragraph eight
00:44:01 um your conclusion here was that the future course of the PDF is still a matter for conjecture again the word conjecture there means you're speculating doesn't it that's
00:44:08 it that's correct um you go on it may be that given time it will yet proved to be a force to be reckoned with and that the
00:44:22 force to be reckoned with and that the stale material presented at this public meeting did not reflect the efforts to date of the national organizing committee
00:44:35 so what you were speculating was whether or not they would prove to be a force to be reckoned with fair to say I was keeping my options open
00:44:48 yes you go on to say this it is worthy of note that all the speakers remained within the terms of reference of the meeting without making any comment whatsoever on the widespread rioting that that had occurred in London and elsewhere during the preceding week just pausing there is that a reference
00:44:59 just pausing there is that a reference to disturbances in brickton I couldn't say with absolute certainty but that's an entirely reasonable supposition and then you say this back
00:45:13 supposition and then you say this back at paragraph 8 that such an organization of known zealots should apparently ignore an obvious opportunity for propaganda suggests either a strictly segregated approach to separate issues or that its channels of internal debate are too cumbersome to permit quick
00:45:24 are too cumbersome to permit quick reaction to changing circumstances looking at that now would you agree that that is somewhat disparaging towards the
00:45:41 that is somewhat disparaging towards the group in the way that you expressed that it could be interpreted as such is that how you felt towards the group no um I previously said for the first part of that paragraph I was keeping my options open um I don't know another colloquial expression that would be similar that would apply to the uh the final sentences but that was that was how it was had you already formed the view by
00:45:56 was had you already formed the view by this early stage that in fact this group that you were infiltrating might not be capable of the sort of revolutionary or violent activity that your deployment was in
00:46:07 activity that your deployment was in theory at least intended to sniff out I think it was fairly obvious from the early stage that they were incapable of mounting a revolution uh but the possibility that they might indulge in violence in their attempts to do so uh was still real in certainly in my
00:46:20 was still real in certainly in my estimation time has proved me wrong but that was at the time at this early stage of your deployment yes can we take that down please and have up ucpi
00:46:31 ucpi 0166 and that is C6 in your bundle sir
00:47:09 thank you H 19 27th of October um
00:47:20 1981 a meeting of What's called the recently formed South London Committee of the people's Democratic front and described as its inaugural meeting do you see that yes um it says that the meeting was attended by four persons including Tom Graham Michael chant and
00:47:35 including Tom Graham Michael chant and privacy that's three people you were the fourth
00:47:38 presumably
00:47:47 um I'm just doing the the basic maths here Tom Gram is one and three prives then yes I would be one of the privacies sorry now I'm not suggesting your name wouldn't uh appear under a privacy redaction hn9 it would say hn9 your or
00:48:00 redaction hn9 it would say hn9 your or your cover name me um if if it appeared in the report so what I'm suggesting is that we've got Tom Graham Alias John Michael chant Alias Steve and privacy
00:48:11 Michael chant Alias Steve and privacy Alias privacy that makes three people named as
00:48:12 named as attending a meeting that is described of
00:48:24 attending a meeting that is described of consisting as consisting of four persons do you see yeah and I'm suggesting that it follows that you must have been the fourth of four that's entirely reasonable
00:48:30 do you recall how you came to end up there at the inaugural meeting of the South London committee with only three other people because I was Tom Graham's wingman so it was your association with
00:48:41 wingman so it was your association with Tom Graham that took you to this sort of meeting did being one of only four people at this inaugural meeting cause you any concern in terms of your ability to influence the direction intentionally or otherwise of this of this group no I
00:48:58 or otherwise of this of this group no I was very much the uh I've used the term previously the the novice to Tom's Mentor but you were one of only four people at the meeting did you would you not have been expected to contribute something well had there been a vote I
00:49:12 something well had there been a vote I would have uh had a 25% say um but that again is
00:49:20 speculation um we see at paragraph three that one of the things that it was resolved would be done is to create a
00:49:31 resolved would be done is to create a monthly Bulletin under the title South London people's news do you recall that I have not an entirely clear recollection but uh I'm certainly not challenging it and the bulletin would contain articles of local and wider
00:49:45 contain articles of local and wider interest and work to Foster anti-racist anti-fascist anti-state anti- police solidarity among the community did you make any contribution to your recollection to discussions about that sort of thing I believe I wrote an article for one issue and what
00:50:00 wrote an article for one issue and what was that article about I I don't recall the topic but I do recall just a few words from it which was something like the United Kingdom the USA's aircraft carrier in the North Sea something to
00:50:12 carrier in the North Sea something to that effect all right so commenting on the um citing of American Military Hardware it it would have been in the context of American imperialism but how more specific I really can't remember how did you come to write that article
00:50:29 how did you come to write that article it was uh Tom was trying to encourage me to excuse me to uh to write for the bulletin and did you see any contradiction in terms of your role as a police officer with getting involved in writing articles for these Publications I well to be frank no and I have to say
00:50:45 I well to be frank no and I have to say now I only made one article in the first edition because Tom very tful um didn't really encourage me to write anymore is that because he didn't really rate your um writing absolutely yes had he might
00:50:56 um writing absolutely yes had he might you have found yourself in the position of being asked to do to write repeatedly well that's hypothetical I don't know quite possibly it would have been on the the mood of the moment and all the prevailing
00:51:14 circumstances can we take that report down please and have a look at ucpi 08237 at c27 sir
00:51:33 can we zoom in to make it a little easier to read at the top half thank you hn9 a report of the 4th of June
00:51:40 1982 about the planning of a series of protest activities concerning the visit to Britain um of the American president Ronald Reagan do you see
00:51:54 that yes yes um and if we can um look at paragraph four please
00:52:13 uh you comment that attendances by party members and supporters at recent demonstrations and you give examples indicate that a maximum of 40
00:52:24 examples indicate that a maximum of 40 persons may be expected at any one event do you see that I do yes so that's the sort of number is that right that you expecting would turn out from the RCP BML at any sort of protest or demonstration or event of that nature I may have lapsed into hyperbole there 40
00:52:39 may have lapsed into hyperbole there 40 40 persons sounds like rather a lot for that group at that time so you think that might be an overestimate yes they were small weren't they in terms of how many would turn out at they indeed yes you go on to say this since
00:52:51 indeed yes you go on to say this since the heady days of the party's Forerunner organization the Communist Party of England Marxist leninist there have been few instances of involvement in overt violence and practices such as assaulting overly inquisitive
00:53:07 assaulting overly inquisitive photographers however the official line regarding attacks by fascists which in this context includes police officers acting as Implements of State oppression is that active indeed preemptive self-defense is obligatory linking of arms and similar passive tactics are
00:53:20 arms and similar passive tactics are considered as no better than running away do you see that I do see that
00:53:35 yes few instan is of involvement in over violence that chimes with what you were telling me before lunch about the lack of violent activity that you observed amongst this group yes the reference to um preemptive
00:53:47 yes the reference to um preemptive self-defense um you describe it there as obligatory that that wasn't a word that Mr chant agreed was quite accurate yesterday well I think in the nature of things we would adopt a different approach sorry I I don't follow that who would adopt a different approach um Mr
00:54:03 would adopt a different approach um Mr Chant by virtue of his political beliefs and position in relations to this inquiry and myself as an undercover police officer uh would perhaps um just from uh basic uh thought processes not
00:54:16 from uh basic uh thought processes not to see a given event or or a thought in the same
00:54:18 the same perspective there may be two ways of understanding that right one one might be to say that two different people might interpret something slightly
00:54:31 might interpret something slightly different differ and they both could be legitimate interpretations if not each wholly accurate right the other way could be to say that one of you is right and one of you is wrong are you opting for either of those well at the time I thought that was right that was that was
00:54:46 thought that was right that was that was what I put down as my genuine assessment how how how accurate it would be um you may well be in a position to to criticize so there's a possibility that it wasn't accurate but you believed it to be at the time yes
00:55:01 can we just have a quick look at paragraph five before we leave this report um you describe there that what you say is the general demeanor of comrades on
00:55:17 comrades on demonstrations May most charitably be described as ill-mannered do you see that I do yes again was was that intended to be disparaging of the group The Group because of their small numers
00:55:27 numers I'm trying to be tful about this usually got shoved to the back of any parade and um were given to
00:55:38 um were given to expressing perhaps contempt or dislike of the uh much more numerous uh organizations that would fill the prime
00:55:49 organizations that would fill the prime positions so that that would account for me saying ill mannered certainly not a public order threat not in itself no from a police point of view no thank you can we take that down please and look at MPS 0746 898 it's c29
00:56:23 sir I want to look at this with Uhn 19 as an example of what appears to be a telephone um reporting by telephone soorry can we just zoom out that we can see the whole page for a moment thank you so you see at the top it's headed Metropolitan Police telephone message from uh Chief superintendent escad but
00:56:41 from uh Chief superintendent escad but underneath is written DCI short so the DCI of the SCS to Commander special Branch
00:56:45 Branch yes and we see the following information has been received from a secret and reliable source it is anticipated that about 10 members of the RC pbml will meet at 11:00 a.m. on Monday the 7th of
00:56:58 meet at 11:00 a.m. on Monday the 7th of June 1982 at the students Lounge at the London School of Economics they intend leafleting in the hban area until 4:30
00:57:08 leafleting in the hban area until 4:30 p.m. when they will assemble at speaker corner from where they will proceed to the picket at the US embassy at 5:30 p.m. on Tuesday the 8th of June a similar number of RCP BML members will assemble outside Central Hall
00:57:19 assemble outside Central Hall Westminster at 10:30 a.m. and will later take part in the lobby of parliament at 1:30
00:57:22 1:30 p.m
00:57:28 p.m um how frequently before ask you about the content how frequently would you telephone uh intelligence telephone sorry telephone the office in order to provide intelligence I truly have no accurate memory but not very often um I don't
00:57:42 memory but not very often um I don't dispute the fact that that would have come from myself there may well have been others but how many I really don't know and in terms of why you might choose to telepone in rather than wait to submit a written report this report
00:57:56 to submit a written report this report in particular doesn't seem to be morning of any
00:57:58 of any disorder can you can you think why you would have telephoned that in it was the same
00:58:07 same day the message was on the 7th of June and the meeting would be on the 7th of June but why did you
00:58:19 be on the 7th of June but why did you think that other police officers needed to know this information immediately I would say admitted that this is a relatively or would seem to be a small matter possibly not worth your attention but uh in the standing back from it I
00:58:30 but uh in the standing back from it I would imagine this would justify perhaps a casual Patrol casual attention by a uniform right so you thought it might prompt attention from the police to the events that you were reporting were about to happen I I thought it might justify some form of attention
00:58:45 justify some form of attention yes all right thank you I want to move on now to a different um seam of reporting um of yours on RC pbml could we have on the screen please ucpi 018 351 so it's
00:59:13 C32 hn1 19 this is a report dated the 22nd of June 1982 so about a year or so into your deployment now and this is a report on the south London Committee of the PDF holding a sports and cultural Festival intended as a local preliminary
00:59:27 Festival intended as a local preliminary for an International Festival to be held in August this year correct I think you recall perhaps that in August of 1982 there was what was referred to as an international sports and cultural
00:59:44 an international sports and cultural Festival held in Coventry by the RCP BML is that right yes I attended it and so this is a precursor to that a local event a precursor to the the larger one in Coventry is that fair to say
00:59:54 say um you refer to this this smaller um event at paragraph 3 as a distinctly informal Affair attended by about 50 persons do you see that I do inclement
01:00:05 persons do you see that I do inclement weather and mismanagement prevented an intended football tournament from taking place and the remaining Sports amounted to badminton table tennis and volleyball the organizer Tom Graham was assisted
01:00:18 the organizer Tom Graham was assisted principally by privacy and to a lesser extent by privacy privacy privacy and Jan
01:00:24 Jan diako um what did you consider to be the purpose of reporting on an event like this which was essentially it appears sporting and and cultural as the name would suggest I would agree that it's a
01:00:36 would suggest I would agree that it's a very little consequence in itself um the impending uh National or International Sports and cultural Festival might have been a more interest um if anything
01:00:50 and it was sorry just let me look at one or two texts
01:00:55 yeah yeah in fact in paragraph five I've said that the festival and Festival initation marks to suggest the festival itself might have been an exaggerated term was of negligable interest but did
01:01:07 term was of negligable interest but did provide some insight into the methods of operation of PDF which was essentially why reported it although I agree it's not particularly important uh meeting or of a political consideration by itself can we have a look in particular um at paragraph seven
01:01:24 please um you say there are attendance figures for the International Festival are still a matter for speculation but a significant factor will be the anticipated participation participation
01:01:35 anticipated participation participation of the Pakistan national kabadi team and then you describe the nature of um kabadi which is said to enjoy a wide following in Asian
01:01:54 communities can we just take that down that's the 22nd of June 1982 and can we have a look please at ucpi 028 769 that's your B6
01:02:09 sir um what you're looking at here hn9 is um a security service document and as it says on page one attaching a brief um for a meeting with the
01:02:20 for a meeting with the SDS and if we scroll down please to look at the
01:02:26 brief and if we can zoom in the bottom paragraph in particular concerns the RCP
01:02:35 BML and the question coming from the security service to the SDS was can Source say how many people are expected to attend the international culture and sports festival which the RC pbml plans to hold in London and centry at the end
01:02:54 to hold in London and centry at the end of August 1982 in particular we would be grateful for source's comments on a the scale of the sports events planned in Coventry
01:03:00 Coventry B uh whether it sorry whether it seeks I think whether it seems sorry possible the ICF will attract a high proportion of local Asian and West Indian participants do you see that I do yes is
01:03:13 participants do you see that I do yes is it do you recall seeing or hearing of of those requests from the security service I truly do not no I'm not suggesting that it didn't happen but I don't recall seeing them is it possible that the fact you included some
01:03:25 that the fact you included some information in your report that we just looked at your report of the 22nd of
01:03:36 looked at your report of the 22nd of June um was in part a response to the request about um whether or not the festival would attract a higher proportion of Asian participants I'm not sure of the dates of the two uh of the two documents sorry this this document is dated the 10th of March of 1982 right and the report was
01:03:49 March of 1982 right and the report was dated the 22nd of June so about 3 months later then it's entirely possible that just in natural sequence the link was as you suggested all
01:03:56 all right please keep keep that request in mind can we look please at your report on the August Festival in centry it's ucpi 018 615 your c38
01:04:21 so and if we could just zoom in on the top half thank you so hn9 on the 9th of September 1982 you report on events between Saturday the 21st of August and Sunday the 5th of September when the PDF is
01:04:34 the 5th of September when the PDF is said to have held a series of cultural and sporting events under the title the second International Sports and cultural Festival do you see that I do yes and you you note that it was the
01:04:47 yes and you you note that it was the very much the realization of efforts on the part of the RCP BML with which PDF is virtually synonymous I've seen that yes um if we can just scroll roll
01:05:00 yes um if we can just scroll roll paragraph um well paragraph three so the bottom 2/3 of the page
01:05:05 please
01:05:17 um you list uh there a number of um events centered on London and centry so we see at one a workshop uh to hear and discuss entries for the Cornelius cardu Memorial prize competition for musical
01:05:29 competition for musical composition at two an international cultural event which is said to be another workshop and another and a concert in the evening three a full program of sports and culture in centry and you list the
01:05:41 and you list the venues and then the final event four is said to be another International conf uh concert do you see that I do yes again C can you think of any real reason why the
01:05:57 can you think of any real reason why the Metropolitan Police Service needed to be interested in this sort of event not on the face of it but uh the security service had as you pointed out uh issued requests and I thought it better to report rather than not report so would it be fair to suggest that this
01:06:08 it be fair to suggest that this reporting was really motivated by providing a response to the security service rather than by any proper policing interest in the event that's reasonable comment if we have a look down please at paragraph
01:06:26 down please at paragraph four in fact you included this paragraph in the report a detailed account of the proceedings would serve little purpose y does that reflect that's consistent with what we just said yes and at paragraph five
01:06:43 yes and at paragraph five please um not withstanding that the the parts that you uh Drew attention to included in the middle of this paragraph a particular Triumph was the securing of the services of several
01:06:57 securing of the services of several troops of bangra dancers for the country concerts again do you think that is likely to be because you were asked by the security service uh about um the likely attendance or interest of the
01:07:08 likely attendance or interest of the local Asian Community that's entirely possible but I think it's more probable that I was just attempting to uh provide a full report and that was part of the full report in fact
01:07:25 full report in fact um I'm not particularly culturally aware of bangr dancing but I gather it has become
01:07:30 become uh popular generally since that time I did have some sense that um they may have been uh sort of cutting Virgin Territory as far as bangr dancing was concerned in the UK but you go on to say that the entertainment was a great success with the Asian members of the audiences which comprised almost all
01:07:42 audiences which comprised almost all those present do you see that yes I do so when you were including that detail it it appears as it not that you had in mind the security service's interest in
01:07:54 mind the security service's interest in participation of the Asian Community it wouldn't have been at the front of my
01:08:07 wouldn't have been at the front of my mind it may have been vaguely somewhere at the back uh motivating my reporting there's no policing value is there to reporting that an event was held and included several troops of Banger dancers not in itself no but it complements what could be useful information can we just have a look at paragraph six
01:08:28 please um paragraph six you com on the what was referred to as the World kabadi Champ Championship so back to the Pakistani sport that you'd mentioned in the report about the local sports and cultural
01:08:40 cultural Festival so again another um comment at the end about popular popularity with the Asian Community judged by the fact that approximately 20,000 persons attended the sports over three days largely on account of this particular
01:08:56 largely on account of this particular tournament yes that would be uh roughly consistent with what I said about the the bangr daning did you give any thought any consideration as to why as a police officer you were being asked to
01:09:07 police officer you were being asked to comment on the attendance of particular of or the proportions of people from different races or different ethnic groups attending what appears to have been a a genuinely Sports and cultural event if I gave it any consideration it didn't feature largely and didn't influence my
01:09:20 influence my reporting so you would have reported on the bangra dancers and the kabi championship for some police purpose regardless of the security service request I doubt if there would have been um a request from any police body to
01:09:35 um a request from any police body to report on the the sporting and cultural events and no real police purpose for you to report it whether or not requested do you agree I don't agree no why
01:09:40 no why not I think we're missing the element of discretion for somebody myself uh in the field uh it would appear and I'm not going to deny sometimes we would report
01:09:51 going to deny sometimes we would report stuff that seemed irrelevant and had no legitimate business for police officers uh if if that is the uh Judgment of this inquiry then I have to stand by it what's your judgment do you say this had
01:10:05 what's your judgment do you say this had a legitimate at the time I considered it was part of the full picture if now it looks that I was wrong then I was wrong when you say you considered it was part of the full picture can you expand on
01:10:16 of the full picture can you expand on that did you see it as part of your role to just report everything I I had understood your answers earlier that that was not your job I understand your question um
01:10:29 I certainly didn't think it would be part of my job to report everything willy-nilly but anything that stemmed from an organization in which we had an interest uh however peripheral it may have been uh I did report and that was
01:10:46 have been uh I did report and that was my decision at the time is that really right hn1 19 because just to take a perhaps a silly example you didn't report what Tom Graham had for breakfast every day did you I certainly didn't and you didn't report on every single one of
01:10:57 you didn't report on every single one of his activities because he must have been doing different things every day of his life correct so you were making some sort of selection weren't you about what to report and what not to report well I mean I don't want to bring this down to the sort of playground level but the security service didn't ask what Tom
01:11:12 security service didn't ask what Tom Graham had for breakfast every day but they did ask some questions which although now would seem to be inappropriate uh were asked at the time and uh and I uh I answered them so going back to my original question it it
01:11:23 back to my original question it it appears lightly doesn't it that you were influenced by the security service request to report this sort of
01:11:36 can we look at one other um similar example please um ucpi 028 783 so B9 in your
01:11:48 bundle and you'll see at the bottom hn1 19 18th of June 1982
01:11:57 I have the date yes yes
01:12:05 um so I'm just checking I've got the right
01:12:16 reference sorry I may have the wrong reference
01:12:26 there I'll come back to that later if I can I think got the wrong reference in my notes sorry about
01:12:36 that um just before I um move away from your reporting on the RCP BML as a group and its activities as a group um you submitted um at least two reports I think on the group after you had been retargeted away from them and towards the Revolutionary Communist
01:12:50 towards the Revolutionary Communist Party didn't you I have been reminded that's in the preparation for the inquiry yes yeah if we bring up please ucpi 019
01:12:56 ucpi 019 575 at C60
01:13:11 sir and we see here a report dated the 27th of September 1983 which was after you had uh been retargeted towards the revolution yes I was completely away from the RCP of and making my way into the
01:13:22 the RCP and what this report describes Des cribes itself is as is a review of some current aspects of the RCP BML drawn
01:13:34 current aspects of the RCP BML drawn partly from open sources such as the party's organ workers weekly and complemented by information received from a secret and reliable source and that's you you're the secret and reliable source aren't you
01:13:49 reliable source aren't you indeed and in your witness statement you described this reports having as having being self-motivated so do you mean by that that it was your decision to create it and yours alone yes it was yes and can you explain why you thought to put together this report after your deployment into that group had ended it
01:14:02 deployment into that group had ended it just seemed a professional way of tying up the Loose Ends and perhaps providing the Chief Inspector with some substance for his annual report and really just uh
01:14:15 for his annual report and really just uh not leaving things in in midair were you conscious that the uh Chief Inspector had an annual report to write it's common practice and certainly was then for an annual report I believe in most police departments and I'll be surprised if I wasn't aware of
01:14:28 I'll be surprised if I wasn't aware of the Chief Inspector having to write an annual report I think I think you take it forgiv that I would have known and did you understand what the purpose of
01:14:39 did you understand what the purpose of the SDS annual report was at that time I well what I knew then and what I know now are not entirely the same but um I didn't give it a great deal of thought at the time what do you know now about it well the considerable debate about
01:14:53 it well the considerable debate about finance and legitimacy and governance and all the other profound questions that apply to it the annual reports were being submitted um for the purposes of securing ongoing funding is that that that would certainly be one of it yes
01:15:07 that would certainly be one of it yes but at the time you might have written this report for the annual report but unaware that that was one of the functions to which it might it was more a personal motivation just to sort of finish the job
01:15:20 off can we have a look please um you deal with this in your witness statement MPS
01:15:22 MPS 0747 710
01:15:25 0747 710 page
01:15:34 56 and paragraph
01:15:42 139 um you say that that detective Chief Inspector short was mildly surprised when you presented this report to him yes did you understand why he was mildly
01:15:57 yes did you understand why he was mildly surprised well they hadn't T me to write it and um if if I can remember visually he literally patted me on the head and said
01:16:05 thanks you say the end of paragraph 139 that the report effectively Justified the fact we were no longer targeting the RCP BML should anyone from the security service read it I'll see the sentence
01:16:21 it I'll see the sentence yes can I explore that with you did did you anticipate that somebody from the security service would read this report on the balance of probability yes and why did you
01:16:37 yes and why did you consider it necessary to have a report that justified why the SDS were no longer targeting the RC pbml because at some point um perhaps I didn't articulate my thoughts that clearly but I was aware that the
01:16:55 clearly but I was aware that the security service had an ongoing interest they may have wondered why we' stopped reporting and this would be uh well a neat way of tying up the loose
01:17:01 end so did you see it as part of your role effectively as to provide explanations to the security service for the what the SDS was and wasn't doing not necessarily explanations but uh to set out what we were doing with possibly
01:17:14 set out what we were doing with possibly some comment that you could interpret it as an
01:17:17 as an explanation if we can go back and look at the report itself please 01
01:17:22 9575 so that's back to your
01:17:31 C60 um if we can look at paragraph two
01:17:47 please and at the end of that paragraph hn9 you wrote this by contrast the present day RCP BML rarely appears in public and then in ever dwindling
01:17:59 public and then in ever dwindling numbers apparently docile and notable only by virtue of their tediously complicated slogans do you see that I see that sentence yes I think you you used the word doile or something similar earlier on to describe the group in
01:18:11 earlier on to describe the group in public or I I may well have done yes and so that that explains the public order or the lack of public order interest if I can put it that way in the group um
01:18:22 I can put it that way in the group um was suggesting that they were notable only by virtue of their tediously complicated slogans does that betray a certain disdain for the group on your part I wasn't particularly enamored of them um if disdain is the correct
01:18:34 them um if disdain is the correct adjective then I wouldn't apply it but Others May think it's appropriate what would you
01:18:40 would you apply
01:18:46 apply um this is very subjective but almost everything they did was shambolic um I don't think it would serve the inquiry's purpose to go into all the details of how they got things wrong but just if I could just use one example at the um International Sports
01:19:01 example at the um International Sports and cultural Festival I was dispatched accompanied by a comrade to herro airport to meet some uh participants coming from Canada and after we've been there for a while it turned out that the flight number didn't exist and the
01:19:14 flight number didn't exist and the comrade telephoned the uh Communication Center and in fact it was a bus number they' come uh by air into Paris and then were coming across on a ferry and then
01:19:30 were coming across on a ferry and then buy a bus and that to me typified the uh sort of this way they went about their business so not not a huge amount of respect for their organizational capabilities that's fa
01:19:39 comment if we move please to paragraph nine where we get to the conclusion of this
01:19:46 report um and bearing in mind what you said in your statement that the the part of the purpose of this report would be to justify to the security service why
01:19:57 to justify to the security service why the police were no longer targeting the group the conclusion is this um it may be said that the RCP BML shows many signs of being a spent force it is apparently financially destitute its
01:20:08 apparently financially destitute its Publications are increasingly repetitive and almost unreadable and its formerly fanatical leaders appear to have mellowed into junior middle age nevertheless in view of its record of anti- police violence it would be rash to abandon all monitoring and in The
01:20:20 to abandon all monitoring and in The Wider security context the party May yet prove to be of continuing interest do you agree that doesn't sound like an explanation for why not to Target the group but an invit invitation to continue to Target
01:20:37 to continue to Target it I think a more accurate um assessment would be that I was covering all angles and didn't want to jump on either side of the fence but why not um that's how I saw it I can't offer any deep psychological explanations or one that might be relevant to the inquiry but you concluded or had
01:20:53 inquiry but you concluded or had certainly concluded by the time of this report that this was a doile group to use your termin ology they weren't numerous enough to cause any public disorder they didn't seem intent on causing any public disorder why would
01:21:04 causing any public disorder why would you leave the door open to them being infiltrated at all well the uh the Embers could be blown into life again if if that's not too fanciful an expression so just on the off chance someone might want to keep an eye on them yes indeed
01:21:16 want to keep an eye on them yes indeed yes is that how you saw the proper use of police resourcing to monitor groups just in case they might burst into life if we knew their true potential
01:21:28 life if we knew their true potential when we started then that wouldn't be a justifiable use of resources but it was part of my job to uh to find out and if I can summarize you might say I I wrote myself out of a
01:21:39 myself out of a deployment right well we'll come on to um how your deployment into RCP BML came to an end shortly before I do can we
01:21:51 to an end shortly before I do can we just look at um a few reports um that you submitted on individuals um and PRI events and the like um in regard to the group um you recall in your witness statement being uh you recall being
01:22:05 statement being uh you recall being asked to attend and what you describe as the funeral of a leading comrade in the RCP BML who had been killed in a hit and run accident quite so that was Cornelius cardu wasn't it it was indeed yes and you say in your statement that you're
01:22:18 you say in your statement that you're pretty sure that that that that was a request from the security service I never saw any documentation I do recall in a conversation and I don't know which
01:22:31 in a conversation and I don't know which of the managers it was uh but one of the managers said something like very much along the lines this isn't theba but something very much like the security service have rung over and wants to know if there's any chance of you going to the
01:22:41 the funeral all right and you did in fact attend the funeral didn't you I was invited to it by Tom on the 29th of December of 1981 what did you think was the purpose of attending someone's funeral it may seem ghoulish I wasn't
01:22:56 funeral it may seem ghoulish I wasn't entirely easy about it but the uh the request had come from the security service um it may have been interest
01:23:07 service um it may have been interest from our point of view as uh the police for the attendees perhaps um people of significance from the past two hadn't recently been available um and that's about it you also attended um a memorial
01:23:20 it you also attended um a memorial meeting can we look please at ucpi 07157 it's your c17 sir
01:23:45 so report dated the 8th of February 1982 about an event on Saturday the 23rd of January at Conway Hall a memorial meeting in honor of the late Cornelius Ki formerly a leading activist and founding member of the these organizations approximately 150
01:23:58 these organizations approximately 150 persons attended and then if we can look at paragraph uh three
01:24:08 please so the meeting is chaired by someone described as a caretaker spokesman for the party and then you described that a large part of the evening was taken up by performances by the PCA that's the people's Cultural Association of his songs and the playing
01:24:24 Association of his songs and the playing of one of his piano compositions by John til
01:24:25 til since many of those present were professional musicians and not political revolutionaries the spok and tributes emphasized ki's personal qualities rather than the purity of his Marxism leninism speeches and in some case in
01:24:37 leninism speeches and in some case in sorry and in some cases poems were read out by the following and then you list a number of individuals fellow musicians
01:24:51 number of individuals fellow musicians somebody's wife um and then some members of the National Organization organizing committee the Communist youth Union of Britain Etc um why did you go to that event I was invited by Tom and it was part of our uh shall I say super numer
01:25:04 part of our uh shall I say super numer activities that I didn't simply confine myself to everything that was strictly political uh drawing the line between those that I absolutely had to intend and those that were discretionary was not an easy task right so sometimes you would attend events that were not
01:25:17 would attend events that were not necessarily directly relevant to your uh task of obtaining int political intelligence but this is more perhaps more of a social sort of event as far as you were concerned yes it might have caused comment if IID refused the invitation having accepted the
01:25:32 invitation having accepted the invitation why did you consider it necessary to submit a report uh for completeness I appreciate that uh with the benefit of hindsight it might have seemed a bit pointless but at the time I considered and it was generally considered that um events on
01:25:47 generally considered that um events on The Fringe like that should be reported so they wouldn't it wouldn't have um been the case that if you turned up at an event and it was of no real intelligence value to the police that you would simply decide not to put a report
01:26:01 report in I truly don't know whether there are such instances where an event occurred and I was present and I decided not to report it it's possible but I don't
01:26:13 know can we look please uh take that report down and look now at some reports on individuals ucpi
01:26:17 ucpi 01724 it's C13 sir
01:26:39 and I'll read this into the record hn9 a report dated the 11th of December 1981 privacy is the registered owner owner of a privacy motorc car privacy
01:26:52 owner of a privacy motorc car privacy his address is shown as privacy privacy is involved with the RC pbml and while the extent of his commitment is not known known he has been identified at meetings of people's Democratic front and at monthly lectures arranged by the
01:27:10 party do I take it from the fact that this report exists that you considered that information was sufficient for to Merit a report on a particular individual well clearly I
01:27:23 particular individual well clearly I submitted it so by she logic yes and can you assist with why that sort of information was considered useful to report by you well because as a member of the RC pbml he would by definition be of interest so mere membership was enough Yes sounds
01:27:40 correct could we take that down please and look at ucpi
01:27:44 01723 that's your c21 sir
01:28:04 a report dated the 10th of March 1982 again I'll read it privacy has recently moved from privacy premises which she shared with privacy of the RCP BML to privacy she is separated from her husband privacy her free time appears to be fully occupied looking after her two
01:28:16 be fully occupied looking after her two young children nevertheless she remains on close terms with privacy and is known to have allowed her flat to be used by the RCP BML for its current series of introductory Marxist leninist
01:28:39 tutorials again sufficient to report that she had moved from shared premises of the RCP BML and that she'd allowed her new premises to be used for tutorials it's very thin I admit but uh yes clearly I submitted it and uh considered it needed to be
01:28:53 considered it needed to be submitted can I ask about two aspects of this report why did you consider it necessary to report that she had separated from her husband simple completeness I appreciate that uh with benefit of hindsight and subsequent analysis that might seem
01:29:05 subsequent analysis that might seem inappropriate and intrusive but at the time I I saw no reason not to do so so no reason not to do so rather than a positive contribution to policing there's a slight difference in emphasis but
01:29:16 but yes similarly why did you consider it necessary to report that her free time appeared to be fully occupied looking after her two young children I couldn't
01:29:27 after her two young children I couldn't say with any certainty but uh if she was fully occupied in that way she'd have less time to uh to go into revolutionary
01:29:37 activities all right thank you can we take that down and have a look now please at ucpi 0291 97 it's your B7 sir
01:30:00 at hn1 19 this doesn't have a date on it but the inquiry is able to tell by linking it up to Associated documents that it dates from um April 1982 it was handed over at a meeting in April
01:30:16 1982 and you will see there at the bottom of the page a request um as to whether the source which would be you in 1982 in the RC pbml had heard of a particular musician um and the name was
01:30:28 particular musician um and the name was given and the suggestion that there was a suspicion that the individual had been a pupil or colleague of someone else and either a member or supporter of the RCP BML do you see that I see the bottom
01:30:47 BML do you see that I see the bottom paragraph Yes can we um please take that down and have a look at ucpi 08352 that's your c33 sir
01:31:13 um this report um in a similar fashion different format refers uh 22nd of June 1982 to a box 500 letter dated the 25th of May
01:31:23 of May 1982 asking for assistance identifying a musician composer and possible Pro Albanian communist sympathizer yes so two examples examples only or requests from the security service for information about individuals yes
01:31:44 information about individuals yes associated with the RCP BML are you able to assist as to how commonly you were asked for the details of individuals from the security service I I truly cannot uh clearly it happened um whether it was just once in a blue moon or with some degree of reg it I really don't
01:31:58 it I really don't recall um of this particular individual if we look at paragraph um
01:32:07 four um what you appear to have reported back is that this individual's interests are primarily Albanian and musical rather than revolutionary I see that so in effect a negative return this person not of revolutionary interest to use
01:32:18 not of revolutionary interest to use your word there that's what the word say um can we move just to look a little bit about uh sorry at reporting um keeping the Albania link um you said
01:32:34 keeping the Albania link um you said earlier um in relation to the targeting of the group I think we looked at your statement and a mention of their I think you used the word allegiance to Albania um the the group um the RCP BML was supportive wasn't it of the regime
01:32:46 was supportive wasn't it of the regime of enja in Albania correct um but they weren't when you use the word Allegiance they weren't officially allied with the country in that way were they they were supportive of the ideology and the
01:33:01 supportive of the ideology and the regime um supportive allies um terms which are hard to Define I can't remember what Mr chant said yesterday about links with Albania um this is relevant although it's not
01:33:15 um this is relevant although it's not entirely answering your question but one of the reasons I was glad to leave the RC PML was that anyone of consequence would soon Rel to be expected to take a trip to Albania with obvious complications um so uh sorry could you remind me of the
01:33:26 uh sorry could you remind me of the thrust of your question please yes the thrust is really this when when you were reporting on the group you weren't reporting on some sort of international
01:33:37 reporting on some sort of international link between them and the regime as such it was a sympathy for and support for the regime regime's ideas was it not uh yes but I would add a comment to that that
01:33:51 that um well this is very much according to Tom so not necessarily hard fact um members of the rcml um were viewed with favor by the ha regime and uh I
01:34:02 with favor by the ha regime and uh I believe he said that made welcome when they
01:34:04 they visited can we look at some reporting that you um submitted on um something called the Albanian Society so ucpi 018 395 please c34 sir in your bundle
01:34:34 and this is a report of the 2nd of July of
01:34:45 1982 um a report on um the London and Southeast England branch of the Albanian Society having a meeting to hear the report of a recent visit uh by a delegation to Albania
01:34:56 visit uh by a delegation to Albania yep and your conclusion um at the end of this paragraph five
01:35:07 please was this the Albanian Society continues to work closely with the RCP BML as is shown by the active involvement of chant and others in both organizations however despite much Common Ground between them it is not correct to consider the society as a
01:35:20 correct to consider the society as a front organization of the party since the latter has its own much deeper connections with the party of Labor of Alban
01:35:24 Alban and in the political context operates independently of the Albanian Society so that's you concluding that the Albanian Society was not of interest in short is that fair that's fair enough
01:35:41 yes that is the TW sorry the 2nd of July of
01:35:45 of 1982 could we take that down please and look at ucpi 015 968 c43
01:36:07 this is the 30th of November of 1982 so almost 5 months later you reported on an Albanian society meeting and film show to commemorate the 70th anniversary of Albanian
01:36:19 Albanian independence why did you continue to report on the Albanian Society if you had concluded that it was not a front organization of the RCP BML I would say that Tom invited me along and I went
01:36:31 that Tom invited me along and I went along and as you would now correctly conclude made an error in troubling to report it so you can see now with
01:36:42 report it so you can see now with hindsight that you didn't need to report on it just because you that particular you had to attend um could we take that down please and look at ucpi 07236 it's your C20
01:37:06 sir this is the 4th of March 1982 so before both of the previous reports in time and you reported on an event at the House of Commons of the campaign for
01:37:19 House of Commons of the campaign for diplomatic relations with Albania do you see that it's first annual conference yes
01:37:29 can we although it's slightly back to front can we start by looking at paragraph five
01:37:40 please um you say that the stated aims of the cdra the campaign for dipl diplomatic relations with Albania are ostensibly straightforward and stem from legitimate commercial and cultural aspirations however it is of interest
01:37:51 aspirations however it is of interest that Steve CER is identical with Michael chant South London Regional Secretary of the RCP BML and that approximately half of the persons remaining for the business part of the conference were
01:38:03 business part of the conference were current members of the party or at least regular supporters of its meetings and then you name those which include CH Mr chant and Tom Graham yes so do I understand correctly that what you're
01:38:16 understand correctly that what you're saying there is that the interest um in the CDR event stemmed from the involvement of a number of suppor or members of the RCP BML there's an
01:38:33 members of the RCP BML there's an overlapping interest yes if we come back out of that then please and go back um to the earlier part of the report bearing that in mind we see at paragraph three that the conference was chaired by daff wiggley a member of Parliament and president of ped
01:38:43 ped cry um why did you report on the involvement of a member of parliament in the
01:38:49 the cdra if the interest here was actually the RCP BML involved involvement in the group it would have been rather
01:39:00 group it would have been rather difficult to compile the report with Anonymous references to the uh the chairperson uh on balance although I appreciate there's an issue on reporting on elected representatives it seemed more straightforward simply to tell it
01:39:17 more straightforward simply to tell it how it was when you say there's an issue with reporting on them can you explain what you mean well from my reading of previous hearings at the inquiry and literature generally uh there's natural reluctance to think in terms of the police uh reporting on the elected
01:39:28 police uh reporting on the elected representatives in in a democracy how did you think about it at the time I made the decision because that was how it was and say short of
01:39:40 was how it was and say short of um well similar to the inquiry short of redacting uh significant parts of the report I saw no way around it can I just make sure that I understand your answer
01:39:51 make sure that I understand your answer are you suggesting that at the time you un you considered it to be undesirable to report but you saw no other alternative it it was less than ideal but I couldn't see another way of
01:40:02 but I couldn't see another way of maneuvering around it what caused you to consider it to be less than ideal were you told that by somebody given any guidance I think this would just be Instinct um there's a quite a big Chasm between the complete extremists at one end of society and uh people who are
01:40:15 end of society and uh people who are simply implementing democracy at the other are there any circumstances you suggesting that it might be legitimate to report on an MP speaking at a
01:40:29 to report on an MP speaking at a conference at the houses of Parliament uh there may well be I can't think of any off the top of my head but there could
01:40:32 could be on this occasion there doesn't appear to have been any reason does there well at the time I was confident that what I was doing was right but if I now stand subject to correction then so be
01:40:52 it before um we take a break if I may can I ask you about um a particular aspect of um Michael Chance's evidence which it appears you um paid ATT some
01:41:03 which it appears you um paid ATT some attention to so you may be aware of what he said he gave evidence that you attended with him a counter-protest
01:41:16 attended with him a counter-protest against a national front March or event in South London possibly Kennington uh involving the national front leader Martin Webster indeed and uh first of all do you recall attending such an event I certainly attended the event I recollection is somewhat fragmented is little more than
01:41:33 somewhat fragmented is little more than a couple of shall we say visible cameos will tell us what you do remember say again please tell us what you do remember uh I say of these two visual Recollections one was of Martin Webster accompanied by a rather large Burly
01:41:47 accompanied by a rather large Burly character who had all the demeanor of a bodyguard uh ambling quite nonchalant through cumberwell green without any sort of impediment the second one was um
01:41:58 sort of impediment the second one was um Michael chant uh who was using aoud Hala a megaphone to address an assembly of members of the public and some party adherence uh the contents of his speech I don't recall but um he was delivering it with some passion would would it be fair to assume it was a generally
01:42:09 fair to assume it was a generally anti-fascist that would be correct yes He suggests that Martin Webster was in fact protected by police officers do you recall
01:42:20 you recall that I have no visual recollection at all of police officers being present but it would be ridiculous to say that there weren't clearly an event that was known
01:42:43 weren't clearly an event that was known about beforehand would have had a police presence if Mr chant uh interprets that as as to being protected by the police then certainly um the police would be between Webster and uh the opponents rather that amounted to actually directly protecting Webster is matter of how we use words he recalls you making the
01:42:58 words he recalls you making the suggestion that an attempt could be made to break through police lines in order that Martin Webster could be confronted did you do that I have no recollection of what anybody said on that occasion but that
01:43:10 anybody said on that occasion but that suggestion does not ring true it seems um extremely improbable it was not part of my role to act as Azon provocator uh if hypothetically I had chosen to do so
01:43:32 hypothetically I had chosen to do so there were very strong disincentive Ives um as a low status um fellow traveler I had no Authority no influence and to have had any sort of chance of uh successfully promoting such a venture i' would have to put myself in pole
01:43:43 would have to put myself in pole position at the front that would have almost certainly have led to arrest arrest was to be avoided wherever possible because of the obvious problems of being in police custody and then in court while using a false
01:43:54 court while using a false identity uh as previously mentioned i' done a research which indicated that although by now they were to use your word or probably my word docile they did have a track record of uh violence on
01:44:10 have a track record of uh violence on the streets and I was rather than sort of courting disaster I was my mindset would always have been to be on the alert for a situation that could develop where I would be dragged into it and become involved in violence beyond that there was the simple question of fear of
01:44:24 there was the simple question of fear of pain or physical injury if I was treated roughly by my uniform colleagues uh if by any chance uh I actually came into a really desperate situation I could even have inflicted an injury on one of my colleagues with even worse
01:44:39 colleagues with even worse ramifications beyond that if I'd managed to get Beyond police lines um Webster himself was a formidable character and I say he had a a goon in his company and I was still subject to the risk of physical injury and
01:44:54 physical injury and pain um beyond that it was a Saturday if I had been arrested that would have meant being in custody over the weekend before court on Monday uh which would be bad enough in solitary but if I was uh doubled up with a comrade with the potential for very long and profound
01:45:07 potential for very long and profound discussions about politics or personal matters including my my record and where I worked and other personal things that was even less desirable uh on top of all that um a family member was visiting
01:45:20 that um a family member was visiting over the weekend and staying and um I was hoping for a short working day which fortunately was what happened uh but had I not got home by a reasonable time it
01:45:31 I not got home by a reasonable time it could have been very awkward to explain my
01:45:34 my absence you said when I first asked you about this that you had a recollection of two cameos from the day but now you seem to be able to recollect the precise day that this happened it was a Saturday I don't remember the date but I remember it was a Saturday because of personal
01:45:45 it was a Saturday because of personal circumstances in my life um I say that was uh if I can put it bluntly I had a row with my wife when I got home because I had expected the meal to be ready and
01:45:57 I had expected the meal to be ready and I had to start it cuz she was delayed at work so you remember the day pretty clearly I remember some elements of it yes the actual events the which you started off it say just these two sort of visual
01:46:06 of visual Recollections you gave in answer a lot of um consequences that could flow if in
01:46:18 of um consequences that could flow if in fact you had broken through police lines well if I had attempted to yes yes but is it possible that you made the suggestion to see whether the RCP BML would in fact take up the idea of Street violence to see whether your conclusions that they were dosar were in fact
01:46:30 that they were dosar were in fact correct were you testing them well anything is possible but I reject that suggestion because as I started by saying it wasn't part of my role to act as Aon
01:46:38 as Aon provocator you had gone into a group hadn't you that you had been part of the decision to Target and it turned out that they
01:46:51 Target and it turned out that they were appeared to be no of no public order risk do you agree with that certainly they weren't up to what they had done in the past was there any element of you seeking to justify your
01:47:07 element of you seeking to justify your own deployment by provoking some attempt at relatively minor disorder no absolutely
01:47:27 not I'm about to move on to another topic I don't know if that's a good time for a break for the stenographer yes I think he would be you're moving from this particular organization to another I'm moving to the decision to retarget Y towards the RCP yes can I ask just one
01:47:38 towards the RCP yes can I ask just one question then about Mr chant um we both heard him yesterday in my case for the
01:47:46 heard him yesterday in my case for the first time you would it be wrong with me sir to point out that I think I see him at the back of the hall oh thank you I thank you for pointing that out to me but I I formed a view about him now did he appear very much different um 40 years
01:48:00 years ago it's very difficult to give a sincere answer without being subjective um he didn't he didn't look a well man
01:48:08 well man yesterday um he's older than I am but again there's no nice way of saying this he looked significantly older than I am
01:48:21 he looked significantly older than I am and certainly he seemed to have changed from uh when I knew him some 40 years ago
01:48:27 ago so your evidence is that he has in fact changed at least outwardly second sir please he has in fact changed at least outwardly yes indeed yes but what about the inner
01:48:39 character I don't know if I can help the inquiry by making speculative um meanderings on the basis of what he said in this court yesterday sorry in this inquiry
01:48:50 inquiry yesterday very well I can't press that any further then we'll rise for 15 minutes and start again
01:49:21 then
02:05:20 e e
02:06:19 thank you sir hn1 19 I'm going to ask now some questions about your retargeting away from the RCP BML towards the Revolutionary Communist
02:06:30 towards the Revolutionary Communist party all right can we start please by having on screen ucpi 02882 it's your B13
02:06:49 sir and this is a security service note um sorry can we just see the date before we zoom in uh November 1982 12th of November 1982 at that time you were still deployed into the RC pbml weren't you H 19 and if we have a look
02:07:05 weren't you H 19 and if we have a look at paragraph three please the security service recorded that the SDS had decided that uh you could no longer be justified in the RCP it actually just says RCP ml but it's RCP BML according
02:07:16 says RCP ml but it's RCP BML according to there that's the SS's Law and Order objective and they were go going to try to move you to South London RCP I think you agree in your witness
02:07:30 RCP I think you agree in your witness statement with the um uh suggestion that your deployment could not be justified according to the law and order objective of the SDS is that right that's correct yes it was clear wasn't it for some time before November
02:07:44 before November 1982 that there was no real Law and Order objective no real policing objective to continued infiltration of the group wasn't it I would say it was a gradual realization perhaps I put too much stress on what I knew historically but uh if perhaps that realization
02:07:59 but uh if perhaps that realization should have come earlier then that's open to
02:08:01 open to opinion certainly by November 1982 it was clear as per this report can
02:08:13 1982 it was clear as per this report can we take that down please and put up ucpi 02889 that's b14 sir
02:08:34 I don't think we see uh a date on the document but it refers to a visit um on the 20th of January 1983 in paragraph one this is another visit between the security services and the managers or management in the SDS DCI short and di h168 do you see
02:08:48 DCI short and di h168 do you see that um and if we can look at par paragraph 8 uh please the top of page two it's a little difficult to
02:09:01 read um but the security service representative commented on a lack of recent reports from the RCP BML source and the SDS confirmed that they were
02:09:14 and the SDS confirmed that they were trying to redeploy him that's you into the South London RCP correct but you were still mixing with your present maist comrades does that accurately reflect the change over that you went through between RC pbml to the RCP it's
02:09:25 through between RC pbml to the RCP it's certainly the change over period whether it was precisely like that I wouldn't quibble over what you just said and then this is recorded of of appears to be to reflect what the SDS managers were saying in general they felt that
02:09:36 saying in general they felt that although the man had tried hard within RC pbml it was so security conscious and not particularly active that it might take years to get somebody into a position to provide the kind of
02:09:48 position to provide the kind of information that we wanted does that chime with how you experienced your own deployment I wasn't privy to this
02:10:01 deployment I wasn't privy to this document but it's pretty well similar to um how I sort of realized the writing was on the wall I was on the way out but as I understood your evidence earlier this was a group about which you concluded there
02:10:15 group about which you concluded there was no real public order threat do you agree that inde and um although they had um political ideas that you considered
02:10:27 political ideas that you considered worthy of monitoring it was more a keep an eye on them rather than an active threat of any kind that's reasonable so the suggestion that it might take years to get somebody into a position to provide the sort of
02:10:39 position to provide the sort of information that might be useful on that front is that a conclusion that you reached or is that unfamiliar to you I that thought would not have occurred to
02:10:50 that thought would not have occurred to me um so the the core members were sort of very close with each other then there was the likes of Tom who in in essence was a sort of caretaker for the Bookshop and adherence such as myself who was sort of hovering around the
02:11:06 edge um in your witness statement you describe uh detective Chief Inspector short as the prime mover in the decision to redeploy you to the RCP is that right well it was DCI short who uh who put it
02:11:19 well it was DCI short who uh who put it to me uh whether he was perhaps the term Prime overover isn't strictly accurate but certainly as far as I was concerned he said words to effect of in fact it's almost theba him uh we need to move you you wasted where you
02:11:33 are can we have up on screen please your witness statement at
02:11:39 0747 710 page 56
02:11:55 and paragraph uh 138 so the top half of that page
02:12:03 please um and you're speaking there about the being told to be retargeted about a third to half of the way down there and you say this I was in a comfortable rot and I didn't motivate this
02:12:17 this change could I just explore with you do you mean to convey by that that it was it would have been easier to remain in a group that wasn't very active I think
02:12:30 group that wasn't very active I think it's um a justifi criticism that in some senses I was uh coasting along but that doesn't mean that I objected to being moved no quite not an objection but more that it was easy to stay where you were
02:12:42 that it was easy to stay where you were it could have been although I say I made the comment about perhaps having to go to Albania and perhaps uh the difficulties if somehow I had managed to penetrate the in cor so one way or another I wasn't upset at being told to move
02:12:56 move were you conscious of any formal review process having been undertaken before you were redeployed so your managers going through any formal evaluation of the risk posed by the RCP BML or anything like that I didn't imagine it to be a sort of spur of the- moment whim uh but what the actual process was I
02:13:12 uh but what the actual process was I didn't know so you weren't made party to it or asked for review or anything like that not that I recall
02:13:23 no so around about about early 1983 it was clear to you that you were to be removed to the RCP correct yes um and can we look please still with your witness statement can we turn to page 23 first of
02:13:41 all and paragraph 59 at the
02:13:49 top um where you explained you didn't volunteer um it was um DCI short and then you say this I was pretty much told that my first group so that's the RCP BML isn't
02:14:03 BML isn't it is that right the first group correct yes cor yes first group were worthy of ongoing interest but when it came to allocation of Human Resources the RP were that much more worthy and I was redirected
02:14:15 redirected accordingly y yep and then can we also look please page 26
02:14:25 uh paragraph 66 in the middle there um you say there hn1 19 I understood that I was being tasked into the RCP because it was a new territory uh you refer to it offering
02:14:40 territory uh you refer to it offering unconditional support for Irish Freedom Fighters and total sympathy with the Irish bombing
02:14:45 campaign and then at the bottom you refer to them as upand cominging youthful enthusiasts they could turn out a few hundred onto the streets where did you get that understanding of the RCP from are you
02:14:59 understanding of the RCP from are you saying specifically that they were up becoming un youthful enthusiasts who could turn out a few hundred well any of that their support for Irish Freedom Fighters and sympathy with the Irish bombing campaign upand coming youthful enthusiasts could turn a few hundred onto the streets where was that
02:15:12 onto the streets where was that information partly from their open source paper The Next Step partly from conversations and partly from the meetings that they hosted conversations I'm I'm focusing now at the point at
02:15:27 I'm I'm focusing now at the point at which you were retargeted to them what conversations gave do forget me I was jumping ahead there
02:15:38 um I I think this is a case of me applying the rationale after the event
02:15:40 event um basically I followed the dci's instructions to drop the RCP of a mail
02:15:53 instructions to drop the RCP of a mail and move to the RCP uh whether I had the uh full understanding that is shown in that paragraph is debatable as to the first sentence I understood I was being tossed into the RCP because it was a new
02:16:04 RCP because it was a new territory you knew that the officer known as
02:16:05 known as hm16 had reported on the group before you didn't you because you'd spoken to him I think about membership yes that that may have been um sloppy uh use of
02:16:17 that may have been um sloppy uh use of language when I made this statement um certainly as you say there was some previous coverage in fact we over AP for a time or or it could have been it was a new territory to me but I don't think that's likely so what was your
02:16:30 that's likely so what was your understanding when you were tossed into the RCP as to why you were headed there um well for one obvious thing their main office was right in the heart of Brixton on the corner of Electric
02:16:44 of Brixton on the corner of Electric Avenue and Atlantic Road and however ill informed um public opinion might have been there's an obvious uh concern that they might have been at the of the disturbances that have been going on in that loc there were other officers
02:17:00 that loc there were other officers contemporaneous to you reporting on the likely causes for the disturbances in brickton natur yes you weren't particularly reporting on that were no I was not can we have a look please um if we take the witness statement
02:17:15 take the witness statement down at the SDS annual report for 1983 it's MPS
02:17:21 it's MPS 0730 903 so I'm afraid I don't think this is in the H bundle that you
02:17:31 have and hn9 so that you understand this is the annual report written by the detective Chief Inspector of the SDS looking back over the year 1983 all right so you see and there's a cover
02:17:42 right so you see and there's a cover letter first of all from May 1984 and if we scroll down to the next page please we see the letter that went to the home office was dated the 27th of February 19 1984 that accompanied a
02:17:58 February 19 1984 that accompanied a report looking back over the previous year can we turn please to page 18 of the uh
02:18:07 document and this is the section of the report that deals with the Revolutionary uh Communist party looking back over the year 1983 which is the year you first became involved with it that's right isn't it
02:18:26 and in particular at um paragraph uh 37 about a third of the way in this in view of the party's limited membership just over 100 Nationwide it is clear that in its own
02:18:39 Nationwide it is clear that in its own right it can posed no serious threat to public
02:18:50 order were you either made aware of that view by your managers or was it a view that you came to I don't recall that being put to me by the managers
02:18:59 now the report goes on however it is a matter of record that through sheer persistence and accumulated experience the RCP has become skilled in the art of manipulation of the media and has even acquired a certain limited
02:19:16 has even acquired a certain limited Authority among journalists as a source of information on Irish matters and racism as a result of this uneasy symbiosis a small in initiative on the part of the RCP or its front organizations can attract public attention totally out of proportion to
02:19:29 attention totally out of proportion to the numbers of persons involved or their possible influence on the issue at stake that that second half does not in itself suggest a threat to public order does
02:19:39 does it manipulation of the media it would depend what the media was addressing I recall an article in and
02:19:50 addressing I recall an article in and I'm ready to be told I've got this one wrong in the Sunday Times with rather dramatic diagrams of East London workers Against Racism which is near enough the
02:20:02 Against Racism which is near enough the RCP uh Personnel uh going on patrol um I recall myself having a walk with comrades um around a a difficult area and only at the end did they say oh that was a good Patrol and I didn't realize
02:20:16 was a good Patrol and I didn't realize it' actually been on patrol and say they had a a gift of exaggerating what they were doing and um Poss sparking interest and involvement from others people who wouldn't otherwise be so but but the fact that they might have exaggerated
02:20:32 fact that they might have exaggerated what they were doing didn't make them a risk to public order did it I would go so far as to say they were not intent on causing public
02:20:48 not intent on causing public disorder it may be that their activities would result in public disorder but I'm happy to say that they did not set out to cause public disorder and was was that a conclusion that you that came to you before you deployed into the group or as a result of your deployment into the group I would say it was an
02:21:01 the group I would say it was an accumulation of um random thoughts which became
02:21:13 opinion um and that being so your deployment into the RCP either at the outset OR at some point after it had begun could not be justified by reference to any risk of public disorder is that fair to say I think we always had in our back of our minds when I say we um I can only speak for myself but I
02:21:28 we um I can only speak for myself but I think I also speak for management the uh the the potential for it and I appreciate potential is rather a um contentious word in this inquiry but um at the time we thought it was worthwhile because of the possibility of public
02:21:45 because of the possibility of public Disorder so this is another monitoring keeping an eye just to see if public disorder might occur that's her comment because if we look if we take down the 1983 annual report and look at
02:21:57 down the 1983 annual report and look at the 1984 report so written about a year on it's MPS
02:22:04 03902 and if we can go straight to page 27 of that report please
02:22:32 sorry we should be in a different document 03
02:22:37 0902 073 0902
02:22:55 so this is the annual report that looks back over
02:23:01 1984 when you were deployed into the LCP and can we go to page 27 please so this is the section of the report on the Revolutionary Communist party starting
02:23:12 Revolutionary Communist party starting at paragraph 46 an unremarkable year for the
02:23:21 RCP and um 47 suggests a year of genuine consolidation even of growth it has the potential for exerting real influence in extreme leftwing politics an increase in
02:23:33 extreme leftwing politics an increase in National membership but if we go over to paragraph 48
02:23:42 please uh we see something similar to the year before in view of the small number of persons who comprise the RCP it can never unassisted amount to a serious threat to public order on the
02:23:53 serious threat to public order on the other hand this weakness is balanced by its continued exploitation of and sometimes close links with the media so we see a similar assertion to the year before no real change it appears still
02:24:04 before no real change it appears still to offer no real threat to Public public order correct well that's what the report says not what I said right what in what way do you differ from the annual
02:24:11 annual report
02:24:20 report um at the time to its author not at all but uh it was my admittedly subjective opinion that they still had potential although as per the words of the report uh nothing much was actually being done and can we um just take uh the
02:24:39 done and can we um just take uh the focus on paragraph 48 away please um I think we need to go down uh to uh the next
02:24:46 page no sorry that's my error back up sorry
02:24:55 which I've got an incorrect reference so I'll leave it there can we look please at an example of your reporting on uh the RCP ucpi 02038 9 it's your c86 so
02:25:34 and can we zoom in at the top half of the page
02:25:41 please uh this is the 7th of August 1984 hn9 a report about workers Against Racism which is referred to as a front organization of the RCP currently
02:25:52 organization of the RCP currently preparing to raise the public profile of its work in the tower hamlets area of East
02:26:00 London and if we can just um scroll down it's to do with friction according to paragraph 3 between white racists and Asians which would necessitate in
02:26:14 Asians which would necessitate in intervention by workers Against Racism in Practical terms this would involve sitting in the homes of victimized Asians taking their children to school and organizing anti-racist
02:26:27 patrols um so that was the sort of um activity I suggest that was um in the contemplation of workers Against Racism certainly one of their activities
02:26:45 yes there is a suggestion at the end of that paragraph that the speaker who was Frank farady invited those present to attend keep fit and self-defense class classes which he would organize do you
02:26:56 classes which he would organize do you see that I don't see that no which just to the bottom of paragraph three the final
02:27:05 sentence I I see it now thank you the reference to self-defense classes were they anticipating uh the need to defend themselves I don't know what they were anticipating but it's a reasonable
02:27:17 anticipating but it's a reasonable assumption can we look at paragraph four where you offer um a view um you say this despite the Resolute even aggressive nature of War's intentions it does not necessarily
02:27:30 intentions it does not necessarily follow that there is any serious threat to public
02:27:31 to public order do you see that I see that thank
02:27:39 you and at the bottom you refer to uh the attendant possibility of disorder in the event of concerted opposition yes does that typify the sort of um approach of workers Against
02:27:56 of um approach of workers Against Racism it would typify my assessment of their approach yes yeah so that your assessment of how they operated was something like that that they might carry out anti-racist activities anticipate being attacked in the course of it and be prepared to defend
02:28:07 of it and be prepared to defend themselves well there's an element of speculation in that but on balance
02:28:21 yes I'm just going to ask you to look at some examples of your reporting on the group aside from that one um starting with your very first uh ucpi 019 373 C55
02:28:52 so and this is the 1st of August 1983 and your
02:28:53 and your report um on the preparing for power conference that was an annual conference held by the RCP wasn't it it was indeed yes and in your witness statement you
02:29:04 yes and in your witness statement you described this report as your big jump into the deep end when you made your grand entrance into coverage of the RCP that's a bit floing but essentially correct yes if we look at paragraph four uh of the report please on page
02:29:17 uh of the report please on page two um you note that a large number of the workshops were devoted to political Theory economics historical analysis foreign regimes international relations and many other subjects of great
02:29:33 and many other subjects of great interest and importance however few sessions were of direct concern to special
02:29:36 special Branch yeah so the vast majority of what you saw and heard there you didn't in fact consider to be of any interest to the police that's correct yeah you pick out um the following
02:29:51 exceptions um sorry still on that page I just want page two please um the first exception is racism why did you think that a course
02:30:07 racism why did you think that a course on racism was of particular interest uh sorry direct concern I have a few seconds just to read that yes
02:30:27 well there's evidently nothing wrong with working Against Racism but the Our concern was the potential that it might be linked to political aims or even subversion in what in what way was
02:30:40 subversion in what in what way was working Against Racism potentially linked to
02:30:49 subversion oh can I just read the words to
02:30:50 to R cp's argument is that racism is an integral part of capitalist society and that virtually every aspect of the established race relations Machinery is designed to stifle genuine black Freedom it follows that only direct working
02:31:01 it follows that only direct working class action achieves any worthwhile result now direct direct action is uh
02:31:13 result now direct direct action is uh depending on the context uh could just mean doing it with meaning or um even quite uh well potentially violent situations but that's not subversive is it you're that there you're saying that you you are anti anticipating the potential for
02:31:24 potential for violence uh well I'm I'm I'm aware that since the inquiry has been running um subversion has been the subject of uh
02:31:35 subversion has been the subject of uh some questioning and just just what does it mean and I'm familiar with how it's been aired uh but at the time we were far less um informed and uh I say anything that uh could possibly result in violence um would sort of get thrown
02:31:47 in violence um would sort of get thrown into the subversive bin shall we say all right so when you use the word subversion you mean anything that might result in violence I may have wandered into that area when I was writing these
02:32:00 reports um the second uh exception that you highlight as presumably being of direct concern to special branch is the attitude towards the
02:32:16 police why did you considered that the party's attitude to the police was of of direct concern to special branch
02:32:31 I would say give me just very quickly scanning it uh because they perhaps I'm biased as a police officer or former police officer that are not very happy with the uh description of us being Defenders of the capitalist control over the working
02:32:45 class do you think it's possible that as a police officer hearing uh groups political groups or activist groups groups that that that came into it that perhaps you were sensitive to that sort of talk because you were a police officer yourself orbe it undercover in
02:33:00 officer yourself orbe it undercover in these situations that's quite possible I like to think I was objective but subjectivity could have crept
02:33:08 in if we have a look at your conclusion in this report paragraph eight
02:33:19 please you say this the overall mood of preparing for power was one of great optim ISM and determination and it is clear that however slender its resources and
02:33:31 however slender its resources and numbers may be the RCP will continue as a vifer nuisance and irritant for the foreseeable
02:33:40 future sorry are you asking me to comment I was just letting you read that sorry forgive my haste no I was just pausing to let you um have the chance to look at
02:33:48 look at it is that an accurate assessment of how you saw the R CP a vifer nuisance and irritant I think I would fall back on drawing attention to preparing for power as the title of their uh of their
02:34:00 as the title of their uh of their conference um clearly they were not about to seize power um but it was part of their continual um self motivation to use such terminology and that's
02:34:15 use such terminology and that's consistent with um the terms I've use vious nuisance and irritant do you consider or did you consider at the time that police resources should be focused on groups that were simply a a vifer alloud
02:34:31 that were simply a a vifer alloud nuisance and irritant I don't know that they were simply aerous nuisance and irritant certainly um I put that in my summary um I say perhaps I was just falling back on generalizations or
02:34:42 falling back on generalizations or generalized thinking that they may yet have been in interest in the total proper subversion and indeed Street violence can we take that down down
02:34:57 violence can we take that down down please and go back to the 1984 annual report I've been assisted with the reference it's the document is 07392 please page
02:35:17 27 uh sorry page 28 it's my
02:35:27 fault no that's still not the correct
02:35:36 reference it's paragraph 49 I'm sorry um can we focus in on paragraph
02:35:50 49 so the wording that we just saw in your report um becomes reflected here in the annual report where it says this politically it is something of a paradox that the rcps extreme positions should guarantee its continued role as a conspicuous irritant to The
02:36:01 conspicuous irritant to The Establishment while denying it the degree of support which it needs from the leftwing milu to achieve any significant result so it it appears doesn't it that the idea of the RCP as a conspicuous
02:36:17 the idea of the RCP as a conspicuous irritant to The Establishment was one which underpinned the police interest in it at the time I'll go so far as to say my script may have been lifted and copied and
02:36:33 pasted so being a conspicuous irritant to The
02:36:37 to The Establishment a group which posed no serious threat to public order was nonetheless seen as justification enough for your deployment into it well placing no Stark terms no but say in context I thought it was justified at the time
02:37:04 can I ask you please about a particular um incident that occurred during your deployment um involving a trip to Leicester the report is ucpi 014 482 it's c98 sir in your bundle
02:37:26 uh the 5th of February of
02:37:38 1985 um attendance at a meeting in Leicester of the Irish Freedom Movement to commemorate the events of Bloody Sunday and I think you attended the event didn't you um we see at paragraph one that it was attended by shim Fain and a variety of other Pro Irish and leftwing
02:37:54 of other Pro Irish and leftwing organizations which included uh the ifm uh you reported their attendance at paragraph one presumably as far as you were concerned that was of interest to special Branch the groups that were attending and then can we look at paragraph three
02:38:18 please um london-based activists traveled to Leicester by coach didn't they it's by two coaches yes and we see here that when the coaches reached Watford Gap service area it was immediately apparent that the right-wing opposition supplemented by an additional coach load of sympathizers had
02:38:30 coach load of sympathizers had established itself in the car park it was a service station I can't be precise about what for Gap but if another source says what forget then what forg up it
02:38:43 says what forget then what forg up it was and we see if we just move along a small group of right Wingers used the opportunity to hurl abuse and Bricks at their enemies that is correct so did you come under attack effectively you and the group of people you were with and
02:38:54 the group of people you were with and your coaches from a group a small group of right Wingers if I can be precise of the two
02:39:00 the two coaches the one that I was not on um bounced a brick off the windscreen and as it was fairly modern laminated safety glass it the brick did not penetrate the space of the bus the coach rather but it
02:39:17 space of the bus the coach rather but it says in the report two coaches sustained damage to Windows yes the the other coach did the coach that I was was relatively uh ancient vehicle with oldfashioned safety glass one brick went through the driver's windscreen and one
02:39:33 through the driver's windscreen and one brick went through a window on the right hand side they both shattered into pebbles and then a short distance further along the motorway you note a coach the coach carrying the rightwing sympathizers overtook the one carrying the ifm contingent and one of the coach
02:39:44 contingent and one of the coach passengers returned one of the bricks Throne so do you mean by that one of the passengers on the ifm coach it was the coach that I was on and the window was on the right hand side so somebody uh
02:39:58 on the right hand side so somebody uh seized the opportunity to uh to throw a brick at the the right winger bus now we see from the bottom of paragraph three that it appears that the presence of uniform police um brought
02:40:11 presence of uniform police um brought helped to bring the incident to an end that's I don't quite see the logic of that I don't see the print either at the moment oh sorry it's shortly after turning off the M1 for Lester vehicle of both factions came under the close scrutiny of uniform police and the
02:40:24 scrutiny of uniform police and the right-wing element decamped not to be seen again I don't know about close scrutiny but certainly the coach that I was on was stopped uh uniformed officer came on board to inquire what had happened and uh one of the comrades
02:40:40 happened and uh one of the comrades um I'm not going for a for a joke here but he put it down to bird strike sorry you're going to have to explain that answer his actual word was pigeons the police officer said something like well what happened here sir and he said pigeons so just to
02:40:53 sir and he said pigeons so just to indicate that the windscreen had been broken by a low flying pigeon right so not telling that that the the truth that that an attack had been by right-wing sympathizers but put didn't want to get involved with police even as
02:41:09 involved with police even as complainant in your witness statement we can I'll take you to it if you don't remember it but you say of this incident that when you reported it back
02:41:20 that when you reported it back originally you included the name of the person who threw the brick yes in your report and by that do you mean the person from The ifm Who thrown the brick back yes the person who returned the brick that had been used in the initial attack against us and what you say in
02:41:32 attack against us and what you say in your statement is the office edited the name
02:41:33 name out the name was not included in the final report I can't remember whether the reason was uh given um it may have been supposition on my part or it may have been what I was told but I believe
02:41:47 have been what I was told but I believe my report says that it was edited out so that the uh the person who threw the brick at the right Wingers uh wouldn't be identified and there wouldn't be uh none sorry no undercover officer
02:41:59 none sorry no undercover officer particularly myself would be called as a witness so you had some as a police officer you had some evidence about an exchange of bricks being thrown between
02:42:10 exchange of bricks being thrown between right-wing sympathizers and then a brick being thrown back yes but although you were able to identify one of the persons involved that name was not included in your deligence I submitted it in my
02:42:24 your deligence I submitted it in my report as far as I know can't remember the precise circumstances but not doubting what's in the the record that it wasn't included for for onward transmission and your I think you say it's supposition but you you supposed
02:42:35 it's supposition but you you supposed that that was to avoid you being called to give evidence should the matter go to court that may have been my supposition it may have been what someone in management said I can't be precise on
02:42:48 management said I can't be precise on that was that a um a widespread approach in your experience or a widespread attitude that that giving evidence by undercover officers was to be avoided that was the only practical instance
02:42:59 that was the only practical instance that I was involved with all knew of even at the cost of providing intelligence which might identify the perpetrator of a crime orbe it a minor one well I didn't have that experience so I couldn't Express an opinion on
02:43:16 so I couldn't Express an opinion on that can we just look in terms of your reporting on the group at your final report ucpi 026 430 so
02:43:41 c120 the 30th of August 1985 hn9 and your final report was again as your first one on the preparing for power conference but this time in 1985 I'm not going to take you through the whole of this report but it's including appendices listing uh dozens
02:43:52 including appendices listing uh dozens of supporters of the RCP it's about 40 pages long and attaches literature Tim taes and the like from the conference what you say in your witness
02:44:04 conference what you say in your witness statement about this um is that it was a given that you would attend this conference but I think you mentioned earlier that there was also an aspect an element of your deployment being extended a little bit at the end that you were happy to go along with is that
02:44:19 you were happy to go along with is that right that's correct when I say it was a given and don't see the script but um once the sorry once it was once my continuation of my deployment was settled by then it was a given yes and um you also referred to being
02:44:30 yes and um you also referred to being determined to go out with a splash do you remember saying that in your witness statement uh perhaps a swan song would be a better term but yes right and so you were conscious that this was going
02:44:42 you were conscious that this was going to be your last report in the absence of any requests for sort of dribbles or rounding up bits and pieces yes and so would it be fair to say that you you went to town you included as much detail as possible uh for there to be a
02:44:55 as possible uh for there to be a complete record at the end of your deployment while retaining uh a reasonable restraint over what was NE was not
02:45:10 necessary do you recall being provided with a brief for this preparing for conference uh preparing for power conference by the security services I don't know okay I won't take you to it but the inquiry has recovered one for
02:45:24 but the inquiry has recovered one for this and every year that you attended I believe I may have come across it in researching in anticipation of this hearing but at the time you don't recall being made aware of it
02:45:41 no you were debriefed by the security service at the end of your deployment weren't you including about this conference yes it was yes can we have a look please at two Security Service documents uh first ucpi 029
02:45:57 255 so that's your
02:46:12 B30 and on um page
02:46:27 one the security is recorded um a note of a visit uh by the now detective Chief Inspector Tony white and Di Mike Barber in January 1985 and the security service recorded that the SDS considered you to be the best agent they currently have on their books I would put that down to sales
02:46:42 books I would put that down to sales talk did anyone tell you that that's how you were regarded as an SDS officer at the time I only came across that when um the barister to the commissioner's legal team uh produce some documents in anticipation of this
02:46:57 anticipation of this inquiry if we take that down please and put up ucpi 0275 7 that's your b36
02:47:19 sir and this hn9 is the note the security service kept um or appear to have kept in so far as we found one of uh your debrief of speaking to them at the end of your
02:47:38 the end of your deployment and they describe you at the end of the first paragraph in this way it was apparent that hn9 had over the course of the previous two years received a deep insight into their activities that's the rcps activities do you agree with that sentiment well there's always more to be discovered and
02:47:52 there's always more to be discovered and um I don't know if you'll come to it but I was only briefly a full member so whether I can be said objectively to have had a deep Insight I wouldn't have gone to the internal polc policy meetings uh so um like the other
02:48:03 meetings uh so um like the other complimentary Market probably reverse sales talk just uh just just a feel-good factor thing so do I take from that that you don't feel like you had a deep insight into the group's activities
02:48:14 insight into the group's activities after two years I felt I'd reported to the best of my ability and objectively on the information that was available to me at the status of a sort of Mr Nice
02:48:26 me at the status of a sort of Mr Nice Guy Do Anything sort of character but I didn't have the full understanding that would have come from attending the internal
02:48:32 internal meetings when you speak of sales talk you've said it twice going both ways the SDS speaking to the security service and
02:48:45 SDS speaking to the security service and in this document the security service um speaking about you um did you perceive that there was um a sort of sales and customer relation ship as between the SDS and the security service in that
02:48:56 way I suppose in one sense they were transactions although who would be the senior partner orever it was uh wheeler dealing I really couldn't comment did you have any direct contact with them on those sorts of topics with the security
02:49:12 those sorts of topics with the security service uh apart from that final debrief I recall one occasion when the same Security Service uh middle manager who debriefed me uh also uh visited
02:49:23 who debriefed me uh also uh visited either the uh office or one of the safe
02:49:34 either the uh office or one of the safe houses I don't remember which to discuss uh matters of the RCP with you directly yes do you remember when during your deployment that was approximately I can't really guess at all I only the vaguest Recollections um on balance I
02:49:45 vaguest Recollections um on balance I think it was at a safe house rather than the uh detached office that was used um and I don't even recall what the subject matter was but I do recall the visit and was it a one-on-one discussion with you uh not closeted away from anybody else
02:49:58 uh not closeted away from anybody else I'm pretty sure that um I think it was DCI waight who was there at the time but I couldn't be sure that might might still been Mr sha so you and the DCI and the security service representative
02:50:12 the security service representative that's the most probable lineup yes is that when you say that's the most probable you don't have a clear recollection you're I do not have an absolutely clear recollection
02:50:23 I just want to turn now um briefly to a couple of examples of reports on individuals and the like connected to
02:50:35 individuals and the like connected to the RCP as as we did for the RCP BML can I ask please ucpi 019 656 be put on the screen it's c69 so
02:50:54 it's a little fuzzy but it's a report of the 2nd of November 1983 and we see a rally and a meeting at the House of Commons in connection with the um
02:51:12 Commons in connection with the um attempted deportation of a woman known as apia beum do you see that I with paragraph 2 at the moment yes
02:51:19 yes uh approximately 100 persons attended comprising about 40 members or committed supporters of workers Against Racism some 40 student sympathizers or members of Asian ethnic minorities with the remainder being members of
02:51:30 the remainder being members of parliament or representatives of the press you see that I see that yes and if
02:51:43 press you see that I see that yes and if we look at paragraph two uh you named uh the five labor MPS there including Jeremy
02:51:45 Jeremy Corbin um who had spoken at the event
02:51:52 same sort of question as earlier why did you
02:51:58 you include the names of the MPS who uh spoke in your report my answer is similar to the uh the first time um one way would have been just to say a number
02:52:12 way would have been just to say a number of MPS uh or could have resorted to some sort of um other linguistic contrivance but at the time I saw that it was actually doing no harm to report on who was there it wasn't actually if I remember correctly it wasn't in any way derogatory of them or um shall we say
02:52:25 derogatory of them or um shall we say unjustified intrusion into an elected representative or though with the passage of time that may seem the case so at the time it didn't strike you that it would be inappropriate to write about the activities of elected members of
02:52:37 the activities of elected members of parliament it didn't seem inappropriate so no it didn't know and you never received any feedback from for example having submitted these reports to suggest to you that you shouldn't include them no I did not
02:52:50 no can we take that down please and look at ucpi
02:52:52 at ucpi 02649 so it's your
02:53:09 c106 um the 27th of March
02:53:16 1985 um a report on a hitherto undocumented member of the RC P according to paragraph 1 do you see that I see it
02:53:28 I see it yes um you start setting out um little paragraph two little is known of privacy's early life though it is understood that she was brought up in the privacy or privacy area by her own account she experienced a traditional
02:53:39 account she experienced a traditional religious education which progressed to reading for a degree in theology at a university a fellow student was privacy an RCP member who first became involved with the party in April 19 83 etc
02:53:51 with the party in April 19 83 etc etc what did you consider to be the value of reporting on the early life and the education of somebody who was uh involved with the RCP well I don't deny that I wrote the
02:54:06 RCP well I don't deny that I wrote the report um I think this would come under the general Banner of just giving a complete picture which in retrospect doesn't stand up very
02:54:17 in retrospect doesn't stand up very well and when you say it doesn't stand up very well can you explain what you mean by present day uh uh standards and um societal Moray it would be seen probably as being uh
02:54:29 would be seen probably as being uh unjustified and intrusive did you see it in that way then no I did not no did anyone suggest to you at that time that reporting this sort of detail might be overly intrusive no they did not
02:54:43 overly intrusive no they did not no you mentioned um about 23s of the way down that paragraph that the subject of the report had moved in with privacy at his flat at the address in parel one an arrangement which can only have been for
02:54:57 arrangement which can only have been for convenience since privacy is a committed homosexual what was the relevance of that
02:54:58 that information I'm not going to claim that I didn't write it I don't recall um the second person who's mentioned there uh again I have to fall back on saying it was uh the custom of the time that we
02:55:10 was uh the custom of the time that we would include full details so all the details including personal details about someone's sexuality were um fair to
02:55:24 someone's sexuality were um fair to report as far as you were concerned um I'm reluctant to say yes but uh I reported it so yes I must have
02:55:38 done and can we look at um a further example please if we take that down and turn to ucpi 026 432 so C 110
02:55:59 um this a report dated the 2nd of April 1985 if we look at paragraph one you were reporting on the marriage marriage excuse
02:56:11 excuse me of two individuals one said to be a middle ranking party member of the
02:56:22 RCP yes I see the text and the other of of the RCP why report on two people getting
02:56:29 getting married um mer see the rest of the text because I I won't ask I won't say why but it may be
02:56:36 relevant yeah the second text I've just read the first line although there is a so do you want paragraph two enlarged please that would that would help two and three thank you
02:56:51 I was going to say it might have been a marriage of convenience but here I contradict myself so yes I think elsewhere in the papers I won't bring it up but there was a request from the security service for information on marriages of convenience but this appears not to be one of those so why report on a genuine
02:57:12 marriage I'm I'm not delaying so I can think of what to say but I think I'm now recalling the individuals we I didn't at first recognize who they were and if I give myself a few moments that might help me to give you a fuller
02:57:35 answer I do now recall both those individuals and as far as anybody knew including myself it was a genuine match and perhaps I shouldn't have reported it
02:57:56 can we look at one more example um of you reporting on uh individuals ucpi 019 583
02:58:00 please it's the 20th of September
02:58:08 1983 c58 thank you I'm grateful
02:58:30 and here we see this one hn1 19 um explicitly on its face a response to an inquiry from the security services do you see that the security service um seeking particulars of of a male individual described as an active contact of the RCP yes I see the full text um the
02:58:41 RCP yes I see the full text um the information you appear to have provided is in paragraph 2 which begins according to a secret and reliable source do you see that I do yes and it says blank presum be the name who is a graduate in
02:58:56 presum be the name who is a graduate in blank is involved with blank the Privacy London branch of the RCP he shows every indication of being an active homosexual yes I wrote that what was the relevance of his
02:59:04 of his sexuality at the time of request from the security service um would elicit a full response and in retrospect it may well be just seem to be playing wrong
02:59:17 well be just seem to be playing wrong but at the time it was just me giving the response from what I knew accepting that it it seems now to be wrong at the time what did you think the relevance was of somebody's sexuality I didn't question um whether
02:59:31 sexuality I didn't question um whether it would or would not be useful to the security service but I thought it might be so say why why might it be I don't know I could would have to stretch my imagination and not necessarily come up with a right answer well you wrote this
02:59:52 with a right answer well you wrote this report didn't you 19 so if anybody knows why you included it it's you isn't it I wouldn't necessarily know the reasons all the reasons that the security service would want to know about the individual so if in doubt and probably not the uh my best decision uh I included all the information that I
03:00:06 had can I move on now to ask you about something you mentioned um in passing earlier your membership of the RCP brief membership can we start please by looking at a security service document ucpi 0 29 215 it's your B22
03:00:40 sir and can we look in particular um at paragraph three this is a a visit between the security service and the SDS in October 1983 hn9
03:00:51 and there is discussion about you and your suitability for or prospects of becoming a member of the group do you see that
03:00:57 see that yes uh David short welcomed the information and said that hn1 19 was a somewhat quiet and reserved character there were however disadvantages in his
03:01:11 there were however disadvantages in his becoming a member too soon and this was one of the reasons why he was holding himself
03:01:15 himself back as hn1 19 Was notionally A Bachelor as a member he could be directed to another part of of the Country David short also contended that they were able to obtain the information they rece they needed sorry from his present position as a contact I said there were
03:01:30 as a contact I said there were advantages in his becoming a member and we agreed uh etc etc so a discussion about you becoming a member the security service um identifying advantages at David short identifying
03:01:42 advantages at David short identifying disadvantages were those advantages and disadvantages discussed with you as any no they were not I was complely uncited on this discussion did you yourself
03:01:53 on this discussion did you yourself identify advantages and disadvantages to membership at that relatively early stage of your deployment into the RCP could you remind me of the date of this one please this is October um I think you first reported on
03:02:05 October um I think you first reported on the uh preparing for power conference in the summer of 1983 at that stage I was being drawn into a trajectory that would lead to me becoming however briefly a member um
03:02:22 just what I considered as advantages and disadvantages probably less than me just wanting to see what it was like for myself rather than any deep sort of philosophical approach when you say you were being drawn into that trajectory can you explain what you mean please yes I was playing an increasing part I
03:02:34 I was playing an increasing part I having been in one organization I didn't rush to join the second organization I I took it easy I mean p preparing for power sorry old habit preparing for power was um shall we say uh jumping
03:02:48 power was um shall we say uh jumping into the deepend but it didn't mean sort of instant access to the highest reaches and I gradually made myself more useful and became available for more paper sales that sort of thing so by the time of this uh discussion which I didn't
03:03:04 of this uh discussion which I didn't know about um I was not inevitably going to become a member but it was looking that way was it ever suggested to you that the security service saw advantages in you becoming a member if that suggestion was made I have no recollection of
03:03:22 recollection of it can we take that document down please and look now at ucpi 028
03:03:29 728 and I understand sir that that is at your
03:03:37 B8 it's got June 82 I think I've got
03:03:46 the can I just see the date on the bottom of that document please
03:03:56 yes it it's just slightly confusing because it's got the wrong date on the index it is your B8 sir but it's dated on December
03:04:02 1983 um paragraph three
03:04:12 please another meeting between the security service and the SDS now December
03:04:19 December 1983 and you had been invited to join the party David short is recorded as being delighted with your
03:04:24 progress um is it right that you were invited to join the RCP uh I don't recall anybody saying we think you're right for us please apply and we'll admit you or or anything like
03:04:43 and we'll admit you or or anything like that um how did it was it was a gradual process I don't actually recall any of the specific words that were used by comrades to uh to get me to to join or to what extent I pushed myself forward or to what extent they invited me so it's possible that you pushed yourself forward rather than being
03:04:55 forward rather than being invited I would say that's less likely than being invited but it's possible why did you say that just uh my nature and how I felt at the time about it and uh some trepidation of becoming fully
03:05:12 some trepidation of becoming fully involved with them counted against the advantage of being fully involved why trepidation uh I don't know if I'm allowed to say this but it refers to the advice from uh a previous uh special Branch officer all right well I I'll I'll assist you so that you you don't
03:05:31 I'll assist you so that you you don't have to be concerned about names hen 106 had provided you with some advice that is what that was the reference I was looking for yes to sum it up he said it's it's not worth it you'll spend a lot of time on Theory and not you won't you won't learn much more but you rejected that
03:05:42 rejected that advice I was probably just being bloody minded and wanted to see for myself did you just discuss that with your managers at all if I did I don't recall so they
03:05:56 at all if I did I don't recall so they may or may not have been aware that hm 106 thought it wasn't ter a terribly good idea they may or may
03:06:04 not you did become a for member I think didn't you by round about the end of 1983 so round about when this note uh in December records DCI shorts it was just in time to attend an end of year
03:06:18 in time to attend an end of year conference and you say in your witness statement that you went through an induction but it wasn't too intense what did it involve um very little really um standing back one might think that
03:06:30 standing back one might think that there'd be all sorts of tech texts to read and um tutorials to attend and perhaps even written tests or whatever but uh no it was just a gradual process of being absorbed more into the work of the party so relatively easy to gain
03:06:42 the party so relatively easy to gain membership I thought so surprisingly so but you nonetheless tell us in your witness statement that you resigned that
03:06:54 witness statement that you resigned that membership um very soon thereafter yes a few a few sort of full-on intense meetings convinced me that um that was not the best way of spending my time why because they uh were highly interested
03:07:07 because they uh were highly interested in their own political thoughts uh they wouldn't have necessarily have been of any interest uh to the police or to the security service and information about on Street activities and possible public disorder were available to me as a
03:07:21 disorder were available to me as a willing supporter rather than a full member all right so the sort of information that being a member gave you access to was not the sort of information you were seeking is that a fair summary it was the sort of
03:07:32 fair summary it was the sort of information that uh the security service may have wanted but I didn't think it was worth the the efforts involved and the disruption to my my my real life and so on do you mean disruption to your your real life is in not your cover
03:07:45 your real life is in not your cover identity but your your real identity my time away from being on the SDS so it would have required you to spend more time on duty that was my my expectation yes and so you resigned that membership I did did you take that decision
03:07:56 I did did you take that decision yourself or in consultation with your managers I seem to recall being worried whether I would be in trouble for taking that rather bold step because it was a risk that I might have been shown into
03:08:07 risk that I might have been shown into the uh the outside and uh rejected from the party activities but uh as it turned out all was well they were quite happy
03:08:19 out all was well they were quite happy to keep a willing volunteer right so a concern that you might um fall out of favor with the RCP yes what about in terms of your managers did they have any reaction to you taking up membership and then resigning it soon afterwards I
03:08:36 then resigning it soon afterwards I don't recall them either complimenting me on gaining admission or expressing any form of disappointment at me resigning you didn't come under suspicion certainly at that stage sorry suspicion of what by whom Sorry by the RCP no well not as I recall no
03:08:53 RCP no well not as I recall no can we look at two briefly at two examples of um suspicions ucpi uh
03:08:55 ucpi uh 029
03:08:57 029 226
03:09:00 226 B20
03:09:21 so uh we need paragraph six of the please this is a meeting between the SDS and the security service in August of 1983 hn1
03:09:30 19 uh Security Service passed on verbally uh some something indicating that you were well thought of by uh the RCP even if Blan thinks he is a quote funny one end
03:09:48 funny one end quote was that information passed on to you that you were well thought of but someone thought you were a funny one if memory serves yes it was and I am pretty sure I fedback to the uh manager who informed
03:10:05 I fedback to the uh manager who informed me uh who I identified as the person who thought of me as quote a funny one okay and then did that give rise to any concerns for you in terms of whether or not you might be might fall under suspicion by somebody in your target group I made a considered uh decision
03:10:20 group I made a considered uh decision that that individual who was one of the few comrades who I didn't get on particularly well with um just didn't like
03:10:28 like me can we take that down please and have a look um at ucpi 029 227 it's the next month September 1983 so B21
03:10:54 paragraph one Tuesday the 30th of August the security service officer writing this gist did to Dave Short the main themes
03:11:06 gist did to Dave Short the main themes of intelligence that he had been shown concerning your progress the security service officer was not certain that you were the only Malcolm appearing but there were references to a Malcolm being on the under the guide Ence of blank and
03:11:18 under the guide Ence of blank and suggestions that he had Petty Bourgeois Tendencies and if they were not careful might go the same way as hn
03:11:29 might go the same way as hn 106 was this information passed on to you to the best of your recollection um I'm having difficulty distinguishing it absolutely clearly from the the previous one they're only a month apart yeah um
03:11:54 I I can't be at all certain about this I mean c certainly I accept that there were two two instances uh but the distinctions between them are not at all clear in my mind but the the outcome of both was the same that uh I wasn't sufficiently um worried about it to to
03:12:09 sufficiently um worried about it to to ask to be withdrawn so if you had been concerned might you have asked to be withdrawn it would depend How concerned I was but there might have been circumstances in which you would have felt it appropriate to go to your
03:12:20 felt it appropriate to go to your managers and ask that your deployment be brought to an end all the uos were uh allowed to make such a request if their circumstances were appropriate did
03:12:31 circumstances were appropriate did somebody tell you that that was the case or is that your supposition I knew it was the case because there was an officer who did that I'm going to move on um to your
03:12:43 that I'm going to move on um to your arrest whilst you were deployed you say in your witness statement that during your deployment into the RCP you were caught Bill posting three times
03:12:57 were caught Bill posting three times that's is correct on one occasion you were alone and no further action was taken is that right on the second occasion you were with somebody but you ran away that's correct and on the third occasion you were arrested and taken to a police station I
03:13:10 a police station I was um could we have a look please at ucpi
03:13:15 02076 it's it's uh c89
03:13:35 sir um this is a report dated the 14th of September of 1984 and it states
03:13:47 of September of 1984 and it states itself to be from a secret and reliable source and it records your arrest um along with two women on the 11th of September at 9:45 p.m. correct in elephant and Castle do you see that for illegal Bill
03:14:00 posting um your in your witness statement you say that you rang into the office as soon as it was open to tell them about your arrest following morning yes do you recall that clearly I can't well I'm not blessed with Total Recall but it seemed
03:14:14 with Total Recall but it seemed absolutely uh likely that I did and I'm I've no cause to doubt them doubt that had you been provided with any guidance about how and when to contact the office in the event of arrest I don't recall uh
03:14:29 in the event of arrest I don't recall uh I say my instinct was what I did to ring in the office um whether that had ever been subject of a formal guidance I don't
03:14:30 don't know this report that's written um it's stamped SDS in the top right hand corner and declares itself to be from a a secret and reliable
03:14:42 secret and reliable source in your witness statement you suggest that it was compiled by the office rather than by you is that right I think it's probable that I telephoned the information in and then they did
03:14:55 the information in and then they did everything else rather than me re rather than me uh write it and then at some point hand them the text so you provided the information and they wrote it down can you give me just a few seconds to in case I contradict
03:15:15 myself the balance of probability is that I phoned in the information and they did all the writing did you expect that your arrest would be committed to writing in this way I saw no reason why
03:15:26 writing in this way I saw no reason why not you were uh cautioned by the police weren't you as a result of this arrest I was and the two women were cautioned as well they were what thought did you give
03:15:38 well they were what thought did you give to the fact of giving the police a false name and being cautioned in a false name well I think you'll also see in my statement that on route to the police station I tried to negotiate the release of the women uh with the officer but he
03:15:52 of the women uh with the officer but he wasn't having any of it uh that's about as far as my thought of my uh I was going to say fellow comrade as far as my
03:16:03 going to say fellow comrade as far as my thoughts for my comrades went I'm asking about you and the thought that you gave to giving the police a false name uh the entire operation was subterfuge and um I didn't see that any well clearly there are legal constraints on this but
03:16:15 there are legal constraints on this but uh as part of the way the oper ation was carried out I didn't have a problem with doing that right so it was okay to mislead arresting officers it was necessary and in terms of accepting a
03:16:29 necessary and in terms of accepting a caution that would have given your cover identity Malcolm shearing a a criminal record wouldn't it it would although the person of course was deceased I doubt if it would ever have got back to him or his or his family but you were content
03:16:43 his or his family but you were content that your accepting of the caution in a false name was creating also a false record on the police computer I wasn't content but I accepted that it would happen did you think ahead to what you would have done if you were charged with a criminal offense and had to go to
03:16:55 a criminal offense and had to go to court I was just relieved that it hadn't
03:17:05 court I was just relieved that it hadn't got that far um was even more careful in any subsequent times not to be arrested relieved why because of the obvious complications of arriving sorry of actually being in custody and taken before a court rather than merely merely charged sorry merely cautioned what do you consider to be the obvious complications
03:17:20 complications well it's a consistent uh spectrum of uh the the whole idea of deception I admit and acknowledge that um using a false uh identity and being merely cautioned is a
03:17:32 identity and being merely cautioned is a lesser form of actually being put before a court and committing perjury in the court and it was just a pragmatic sort of compromise and would you have given your false name to the court if that had come about I don't know I could only
03:17:43 come about I don't know I could only speculate did you consider that it was consistent with your duties as a police Poli officer to mislead the police or possibly mislead a court I considered it was consistent with the duty I was performing at that time
03:17:59 yes the report on the screen at paragraph 4 describes it as a trivial episode treated as such by souk police
03:18:10 episode treated as such by souk police and passed without untoward incident is that how you viewed it a trivial episode uh yes I as as previously and discuss whether or not that I actually compose that script I have no argument with it and that's how your managers
03:18:22 with it and that's how your managers viewed it as well a trivial episode and arrest like that I think if if you could um think of a speech bubble it would have been um uh that wasn't too bad let's just get on with
03:18:38 it in your witness statement you say that you tacitly admitted the offense what do you mean by that I don't know the I used any words to uh in
03:18:54 know the I used any words to uh in effect plead guilty to the officer um in order to be cautioned you had to admit the offense didn't you thank you for reminding me I'm I'm Rusty on some of the most basics of legal principles uh I'm sure that's correct uh so yes I must have tacitly admitted to it well you must have admitted to it mustn't you in
03:19:06 must have admitted to it mustn't you in order to get the portion yes inde indeed
03:19:16 yes and finally just looking at the report that's on screen um paragraph
03:19:26 five uh says this it may be of interest to note that in the event of the arrest of its members or supporters the RCP calls on the services of privacy party member and employee of Benedict bernberg the well-known radical lawyer what was the relevance of
03:19:38 the relevance of reporting the identity of the lawyers that the RCP members or supporters would call on in the event of arrest it
03:19:50 call on in the event of arrest it wouldn't have me so much the identity of the first point of contact but the fact that that party member was employed by bernberg so you're saying that it was a party member employed by bernberg and
03:20:02 party member employed by bernberg and that was the relevance of it I obviously not going to name the person individual but I I I can recall clearly who it refers to and but what why would it be of interest at all to the police to know that that's who would be called in the event of
03:20:12 event of arrest well perhaps that was sloppy reporting on my part perhaps I should have missed out the identity of the individual and just referred to the uh the law
03:20:21 the law firm but but why even the law firm why why is it of interest to the police to know in advance which law firm might be called by party members in the event of
03:20:33 called by party members in the event of arrest well I mean danger here of saying something unprofessional about um members of the legal profession but um well what is it that you want to say
03:20:48 well what is it that you want to say well I'm not going to say it but uh uh I I think even at uh henden train school all those decades ago um the name of that particular company had a reputation of uh not being at all sympathetic to the police shall I say but but why is it important for you to to report back
03:21:00 important for you to to report back their involvement just because they're not sympathetic or viewed as not being sympathetic to the police well call it PE group loyalty if you
03:21:12 PE group loyalty if you like I'm I'm told that um that it would be an appropriate time for a break for the witness and I think we're approaching time for a break for stenographer I'm I'm not finished so I will have some time to go after that break appreciate that um we will break for 15 minutes that that
03:21:45 good
03:34:14 e e
03:35:08 thank you sir hn1 19 you in addition to your own arrest you became aware did you not that your fellow undercover officer
03:35:19 not that your fellow undercover officer hn12 had been arrested whilst undercover if you need to look at the cipher list I'm aware of who you mean yes how did you become aware of his arrest if memory serves and I think it does it was um a routine um admin meeting at one of the safe houses and I
03:35:32 meeting at one of the safe houses and I think it was Mr short uh said something along the lines of quoted the name um was arrested last night and he'll give us a few words as to how it went something like that that's not
03:35:43 went something like that that's not theba in but it was something like that all right so in front of all of the other under cover officers at a safe house meeting it was in effect a small presentation by hn12 years and invited by DCI short if I recall it correctly I think I do
03:35:55 think I do so in terms of how it was presented to you was it presented to you as uh learn from this and don't get arrested
03:36:13 from this and don't get arrested yourselves or was it this is how to deal with it if you're arrested can you give us a flavor of how it was presented to you I think it was I I don't know um with any accuracy what the precise purpose of this I call it a presentation was but uh I think it was meant not light-hearted but not terribly terribly
03:36:25 light-hearted but not terribly terribly seriously I do recall the officer's line first first opening line was something like I was deep Behind Enemy Lines when and so on as if sort of making light of it as if it was just a sort of fictional
03:36:37 it as if it was just a sort of fictional War Story right so a little bit like the report we saw of your arrest described as a trivial episode a similar sort of idea some similarities in the attitude
03:36:53 idea some similarities in the attitude yes and understanding I think was that this was an arrest for a minor public order offense is that right uh you referring to agent 12 yes
03:36:55 yes uh I think it may have been like my own for fly posting but I'm not at all sure on that unlike you you understood that hn12 had been to court didn't you that
03:37:08 hn12 had been to court didn't you that was part of his presentation yes and did you understand that when he went to court he gave his cover identity rather than his real identity to the court I don't
03:37:16 don't recall realizing that at the time I probably read something to that effect since but not at the time was there any consideration when he was giving his presentation as invited to do of the
03:37:34 presentation as invited to do of the fact that that would involve perjuring himself I doubt if anything was said that would involve perjury or a reference to it or a similar terminology any discussion at all about whether giving a false name to a court was
03:37:48 giving a false name to a court was something to be avoided or discouraged or anything of that nature not the I recall
03:37:54 recall no any suggestion that it was just fine it was okay did you get the impression that that that that was seen as part of the
03:37:58 the job that would have been a little flippant and I don't think that was the attitude it was if I can sort of characterize the O the general sort of atmosphere of the uh the the the
03:38:12 atmosphere of the uh the the the presentation and Mr Short's attitude to it it was um well this is what's happened let's all be really careful make sure it doesn't happen
03:38:27 again you also um speak in your statement of um coming to know that hn12 had been compromised during his deployment that's correct and you describe having a drink um or taking him for a drink or going for a drink to discuss Dr yes were you aware at the time that you
03:38:41 yes were you aware at the time that you went for met him for a drink that there had been some suggestion that his compromise had come about partly as as a result of him drinking alcohol no he wasn't I've obviously read a lot since then but at the time I was completely uncertain on
03:38:55 uncertain on that you say in your witness statement that when you spoke to hn12 you don't
03:39:04 that when you spoke to hn12 you don't think it did any good can I just explore that with you what did you first of all how did you come to meet with hn12 was that between organized personally between the two of you or through some other way it was a personal initiative by myself I don't recall the mechanism I may well have had his home telephone
03:39:20 may well have had his home telephone number this was before mobile phones of course but but your at your initiative at my initiative yeah and why did you think that meeting him uh might be a
03:39:33 think that meeting him uh might be a good idea well I was if not the longest serving um officer on the squad at the time certainly towards that end and I just felt there was a certain not compulsion but um well perhaps compulsion that I should take an interest and just uh let him offload his wo on me so you perceived that he might need to offload his woes on someone
03:39:47 need to offload his woes on someone um perhaps that's a slight exaggeration but certainly I thought it might help him to share even if I couldn't make any constructive suggestions how did he seem when you spoke to him
03:39:56 him um I've have no abiding clear colle
03:40:07 um I've have no abiding clear colle recollection um no exaggerated behavior um and no suggestion that uh he had a problem with alcohol were you conscious of any um similar sort of approach being made to him by any of the managers to meet him and discuss with him no I assumed that
03:40:19 and discuss with him no I assumed that um as part of the overall sort of care package for once for better term that he would have had Lea on with the uh the
03:40:32 would have had Lea on with the uh the senior staff uh this was just sort of an additional extra something which I was almost embarrassed to think well I suppose I ought to do something and just going back to my original question you you said in your statement that you didn't think it did any good can you explain what you meant by that well I think the officer's
03:40:48 by that well I think the officer's subsequent history speaks myself I doubt if having a few words with me over a point did any good at all did those few words over a point um include hn12 mentioning anything about sexual relations with a woman whilst he was under cover at all no did you become
03:41:03 was under cover at all no did you become aware of that at any stage prior to this inquiry not prior to this inquiry how common was it for undercover officers to meet um over a drink in the pub to discuss that sort of welfare
03:41:17 pub to discuss that sort of welfare issues or seek support from one another there was no regular pattern uh sometimes in shall we say a perfectly straight conventional week the meetings at the safe houses would take place they wouldn't take very long it would be
03:41:29 wouldn't take very long it would be purely admin or pain of expenses on other occasions there might be somebody shouted canel to a beer on other occasions we might meet up or some of us might meet up before the uh admin
03:41:41 might meet up before the uh admin meeting or possibly linger afterwards for a drink uh I said the there's no set pattern at all right but but if not a set pattern some regularity to the social aspect of you all meeting up
03:41:53 social aspect of you all meeting up there was certainly a social aspect yes
03:42:05 there was certainly a social aspect yes and during those occasions did you share with each other information about what was going on in your undercover deployment um again I I I'm in danger of sounding repetitive but um some some officers might want to tell a lot about what
03:42:18 might want to tell a lot about what they've been up to others might not want to tell anything um rather like in amongst people generally some tell you their life story and others hardly ever tell you anything it's I said no no
03:42:32 tell you anything it's I said no no particular pattern that I could recall but some officers would disclose information details about their undercover deployments whilst socializing yes I can't remember specific instances but it's entirely reasonable suggestion I think in your witness
03:42:43 suggestion I think in your witness statement when you refer to the um week twice weekly meetings you say um that you didn't keep your deployments closely guarded to your chests when around each other is that a fair way of summing up the attitude as between undercover officers yes it it
03:42:57 between undercover officers yes it it may seem contrary to all sorts of good security practices but um we weren't particularly secretive about what what we were up to or so I thought at the time I mean may have been all sorts of things going on but I didn't know
03:43:08 things going on but I didn't know because it wasn't wasn't raised and so when you say you weren't particularly secretive did you learn for example um from other undercover officers I'm not going to ask ask you to name anybody or identify them at the moment but would
03:43:19 identify them at the moment but would you learn for example about the groups into which they were deployed uh I think that was fairly common knowledge I obviously I can't remember who was in what with any Precision now but at the time I imagine I would have been able to uh to tell
03:43:31 I would have been able to uh to tell somebody asking uh exactly which groups the my colleagues were in and was there talk of particular perhaps prominent individuals in the context of an individual's
03:43:44 individual's deployment uh so might you for example have said
03:43:45 have said at the moment I'm I'm going to use a word that assuming you might use it I'm cultivating Tom Graham or he's cultivating me so that I can get closer to the pbml I I doubt if just speaking
03:43:58 to the pbml I I doubt if just speaking for myself if I would have named any of my comrades did others name people to whom they were becoming close or with whom they were communicating in their un identity there were rare instances of
03:44:14 identity there were rare instances of somebody um actually naming one of their comates but usually when they were well known in the in the popular press anyway all right but they would have been named by another undercover officer
03:44:26 been named by another undercover officer to say in the course of their deployment they were in contact with x x being uh not another undercover officer but X being yes sorry X being someone in their target group correct say that use that terminology and you describe in your statement also detective Chief Inspector short having you give presentations or
03:44:38 short having you give presentations or mini lectures about your deployments at meetings was that um structured in that every officer had to give a presentation or was it or was it less structured than that it was an initiative and given
03:44:50 that it was an initiative and given there's usually about a dozen other us I don't know if all 12 of us ever got around to it but it was something that Mr short encouraged and those presentations what aspects of the
03:45:01 presentations what aspects of the undercover deployment of an officer were usually presented at those it would usually be the sort of thing that you'd find in Wikipedia these days sort of a brief rundown of where they came from uh what they were up to and perhaps some
03:45:14 what they were up to and perhaps some opinions sorry so what the undercover officer was up to to uh no what the group was up to understood so what the group was about what it was up to yes and anything about prominent individuals say again any detail about
03:45:28 individuals say again any detail about prominent individuals not that I recall but it's entirely possible you described these as um that they might well have been within the earshot of management these sorts of
03:45:39 earshot of management these sorts of discussions can you recall management being present for those presentations uh I don't have a clear recollection but I'm not going to deny that it might well have been so yes I mean as Mr sha motivated them I would
03:45:52 mean as Mr sha motivated them I would expect if he had his number two uh they would have sat in as well and the less structured discussions so the maybe the so socializing aspect where officers might have told you about their deployments did managers come to those any of the management team again there
03:46:06 any of the management team again there was no fixed excuse me there there was no fixed pattern um I I appreciate that the inquiry will be Keen to establish just how management and field officers related to each other but the although clearly there was a
03:46:20 but the although clearly there was a distinction because some were out in the field and some were admin in the office but uh the distinction wasn't that clear there was uh lots of interchange just on a general conversational level it wasn't them and us so no divide as such I
03:46:35 them and us so no divide as such I couldn't say no divide but certainly not to Mark's
03:46:43 to Mark's divide um you mentioned in your witness statement um one or two visits you recall from Kenneth new um is that to the safe house to the SDS
03:46:54 um is that to the safe house to the SDS safe house to the I recall one visit by Sir Kenneth to one of the safe houses but there may have been more that I can't recall but certainly one and in your statement you suggest that you each of the officers gave gave him a two-minute rundown is that right of the deployment it was something like a
03:47:06 deployment it was something like a two-minute rundown yes I mean it I'm not trying to sort of paint it in comic operate terms but we more or less lined up and had her 2 minutes with the commissioner and then it was the next one on and so give us an idea with your two minutes with the commissioner what would you have said about your deployment for example well it was the
03:47:22 deployment for example well it was the RCP at the time I think he'd done some pre pre-reading and he asked me about the Irish Freedom Movement which was in effect just the RCP doing their Irish initiative and I think he may have said
03:47:34 initiative and I think he may have said something similar about workers Against Racism which similarly was uh more or less the RCP in there race race initiative right so it was clear to you from the manner in which he asked you questions that he already knew something about what you were doing in the field is that fair I think that's a fair
03:47:50 you also recall um visits I think from the head of special branch and from an assistant commissioner during the course of your
03:47:55 of your deployment um can we you might assist if we bring up your witness statement it's 07477
03:48:08 07477 one0 um and can we uh please have page 80 on the screen
03:48:33 and this is what we've just been going through but just to refresh your memory hn1 19 so uh sir Kenneth Newman came to the safe house the two-minute
03:48:44 the safe house the two-minute rundown um and then the then head of special branch and assistant commissioner who visited uh Vincent Square you say you were present on that visit with another field officer which may have been Roger pierce it was a familiarization visit I have no
03:49:00 familiarization visit I have no recollection of when the visits were or what the content was but we the field offices were exhibits that last visit you referred to the familiarization visit as you call it when Roger Pierce was present did you
03:49:14 when Roger Pierce was present did you speak to um the assistant commissioner do you remember that would that be Mr laan
03:49:19 laan um I assume from your uh statement yes yes I I did speak to him I recall it clearly because I made an unfortunate joke about the Welsh and he had been in the Welsh
03:49:26 the Welsh guards so you recall speaking to him I did yes did you speak to him about the nature of your deployment or of any of the other SDS deployments it's entirely possible that I did but I don't
03:49:38 possible that I did but I don't specifically recall it and do you recall whether he like sir Kenneth Newman appeared to know something about the nature of SDS deployments when you sp to call any of his input in the discussions or
03:49:53 conversation all right I'm going to move on now um hn1 19 to ask you some questions about um mentoring mentoring other officers after your um deployment when you were sent a request to give a
03:50:06 when you were sent a request to give a witness statement you were provided with a number of documents daating from the early 1990s which recorded that you were proposed as a mentor in a pledgeling uh
03:50:18 proposed as a mentor in a pledgeling uh scheme and selected for attendance at a psychological debriefing or counseling course do you remember being shown those documents I remember being shown the documents yeah and I think you said in your statement you don't recall ever
03:50:30 your statement you don't recall ever being aware of those at the time or of attending the courses referred to in there I'm entirely confident that although I may have been proposed for the course I did not attend it did you attend any course or were you given any guidance before becoming a mentor
03:50:41 mentor no you described the role in your witness statement as a listener type role and say that it was all very informal is that accurate it's really similar to my not particularly successful uh
03:50:56 my not particularly successful uh discussion with hn12 that we referred to a few minutes ago um I don't know what use the uh the two officers that I spent time with may have derived from our
03:51:10 time with may have derived from our meetings uh it was essentially a sharing situation and it might have helped them I don't know one of the officers you acted as a to um is known to the inquir hn22 are you familiar with C the reference yes that officer um deployed
03:51:22 reference yes that officer um deployed into the RCP for the first part of his
03:51:32 into the RCP for the first part of his deployment beginning in 1991 so when you mentored him I think it would have been around the time of his deployment into the RCP do does that ring any bells that's consistent but it doesn't actually ring a bell he has told the inquir in his witness statement that he chose you as his mentor knowing that you had previously deployed into the same group were you aware of that I don't
03:51:45 group were you aware of that I don't think I was aware of it at the time or if I was I've forgotten but I have read about it recently in in the current context right can we bring up I want to ask you about one particular thing he
03:51:58 ask you about one particular thing he says about you his witness statement so I'm afraid it's not in your bundle but on the screen MPS 0747
03:52:02 0747 709 and can we turn to page five
03:52:33 should be paragraph 12 yes thank you this is the uh witness statement given to the inquiry by hm122 do you follow hm1
03:52:35 hm1 19 I have it now
03:52:42 yes and um he is um in the second half um of the uh paragraph or perhaps this the last twoth thirds it begins
03:52:55 this the last twoth thirds it begins even then there was an appreciation in mpsb generally that a previous deployment with the SDS affected officers returning to normal Branch duties if nothing else they displayed a lot of self-confidence which could manifest itself in unusual ways
03:53:14 manifest itself in unusual ways hn9 returned from what I later learned had been his UC deployment to C Squad and hung a framed version of commissioner Newman's principles of policing above his desk his colleagues found this difficult to understand but
03:53:25 found this difficult to understand but apparently he intended it as a form of practical
03:53:27 practical joke um did you um well first of all I think we know from your statement that a sometime after your undercover deployment you did return to work on C
03:53:40 deployment you did return to work on C Squad that's correct when you did so uh did you hang a framed version of commission and human's principles of policing above your dek desk I have no recollection the only reference I've had that is quite recently in Council to the uh coordinating group for the non-state
03:53:53 uh coordinating group for the non-state non-p police uh uh core participants uh which was this text that you've uh just displayed to me um it's entirely
03:54:04 displayed to me um it's entirely possible that I would have made a framed copy and put it on the wall above my desk why would you have done that well
03:54:16 desk why would you have done that well why would I not it was uh a a worthy and sincere message from the man at the top and I say I have no recollection of doing it but certainly no reason why I shouldn't have done it did you regard it as a
03:54:21 as a joke I can only speculate on this because I haven't seen the precise wording of the uh officer who has made this suggestion I think it more than likely that uh this was me wishing to
03:54:34 likely that uh this was me wishing to avoid appearing sanctimonious or prei and saying something jular about it but whether I actually said oh it's just a practical joke I doubt that very much
03:54:50 practical joke I doubt that very much how did you then regard commission and human's principles of policing well I still have my copy um doesn't mean I frequently go to read it but um if I just repeat my words it was a worthy and sincere message from the man at the top the only negative feedback um generally
03:55:04 the only negative feedback um generally was that perhaps it was a little longer and more detailed than it needed to be did you have any sense as an SDS officer that you were um Bound by or
03:55:18 officer that you were um Bound by or should conduct yourself according to those
03:55:19 those principles or did you consider yourself a part from that sort of policing whilst you're undercover I didn't consider myself a part I appreciate that some of the um the strategems that we involved
03:55:31 the um the strategems that we involved might have seemed to be at variance with those principles um uh at the risk of uh resorting to pragmatism um pragmatically we just got on with the job and uh
03:55:46 we just got on with the job and uh hopefully remained um as far as possible within the
03:55:55 principles can I turn then if we take that down please to um a final topic and that arises from the first witness statement that you gave to this inquiry in 2018 it's MPS 0731 969 it's your A1 sir
03:56:19 I'm going to ask you about this witness statement and then after we've gone through some of the detail I'll go back as to how it came about but if we can just focus on the content to start with can we turn please to page seven
03:56:54 uh and Under The Heading first conversation with hn 67 about the female what you told the inquiry in this witness statement in 2018 was that you had been told by hn 67 that he had fathered a child um that he had fathered a child
03:57:09 child um that he had fathered a child and that was in his undercover identity wasn't
03:57:16 wasn't it and ju just forgive me if I slow this down this is a conversation with hn 67 about the female yes and I'm just looking at the second line of paragraph 19 I was told by hn 67 that he had fathered a
03:57:29 fathered a child well certainly hn 67 did tell me that he had fathered a child no no let me be absolutely precise he told me that he had got a female common age pregnant and she intended to have the baby and from circumstantial
03:57:45 have the baby and from circumstantial circumstances both before and after that revelation uh I believe that she did have the baby right let's um look at I think what you're referring to by the circumstantial evidence but before we do your your guess in your witness
03:57:58 your your guess in your witness statement was that the conversation you had with hm67 the first conversation would have been around late summer 1983 it would have been around the current
03:58:09 it would have been around the current time of the year now or possibly August and how confident are you in that time it being during that time period first circumstances in my own life which I think would fall within something that needs to be redacted I'm
03:58:20 something that needs to be redacted I'm pretty confident that it was then yes so you can remember by reference to something to do with your own real life all right if we then go back to the circumstances leading to that conversation can we go back please in your witness statement to page
03:58:33 your witness statement to page six and I will just um I'm just putting it on the screen to help you to assist to refresh your memory but I'll ask you some questions apart from it is it a
03:58:44 some questions apart from it is it a fair summary that you um before that conversation with hn 67 you recall um encountering um a female a woman who you associated with the Socialist Workers Party the swp outside brickton
03:58:57 Party the swp outside brickton underground station that is correct and you knew at the time did you that hm67 was deployed into the SW yes I did and for just to Anchor ourselves in time we
03:59:08 for just to Anchor ourselves in time we know that he deployed to the Brixton swp in sometime in 1982 yes and can you just explain
03:59:19 yes and can you just explain um the encounter with this uh this woman outside brickton underground station that you
03:59:22 that you recall yes I mean did you want to lead me in further or shall I just take it from here well can you can you tell us what you recall very well it was a Saturday morning one of my regular
03:59:33 Saturday morning one of my regular Saturday morning jobs in character was to sell copies of my organization's paper to passing members of the public on the Saturday in question there were four possibly five people selling socialist worker the party the paper of
03:59:47 socialist worker the party the paper of the Socialist worker uh amongst them was hn 67 who was standing next to a woman of roughly the same sort of age possibly a little younger um there were no obvious public display of affection but
04:00:02 obvious public display of affection but they were chatting occasionally having a bit of a laugh uh partway through the morning the woman approached me and bought one of my papers and I was very aware that she had a very distinctive speaking voice uh it was a low register for a woman uh uh I the words I would
04:00:16 for a woman uh uh I the words I would use would be uh Gruff rasping horse uh I don't know that graly has any sort of um connotations but uh anyway very
04:00:28 connotations but uh anyway very distinctive in that's at least four adjectives um she went back to her comrades and for the time being that was it I gave it no further thought and between that encounter and your what you've described as your first
04:00:39 you've described as your first conversation with h67 when he told you that he he'd made a woman pregnant did
04:00:53 that he he'd made a woman pregnant did you see that woman again no I did not no did you have any calls to remember her again between not between not between that first site and the conversation with
04:00:54 with 67 did you in fact see the woman again I saw her again and do do you want the full version of this or will you lead me yes please tell tell us what you I I saw her
04:01:13 I I saw her again it may have been late in 83 it may have been early in '84 but some months later I attended a demonstration and March in London the subject of which has totally escaped me doesn't really relevant
04:01:23 relevant um I was heading for the assembly point in fact I was at the assembly point when I heard that distinctive voice which I'd previously heard in Brixton looked over to my left saw the woman in profile
04:01:37 to my left saw the woman in profile recognized her when I say recognize we didn't make eye contact she was unaware of me hm67 was wasn't there she was straightening up from a stooping
04:01:49 straightening up from a stooping position having picked up a placard and strapped to her baby sorry strapped to her back in a sling was a baby and did you form any impression of how old the baby was
04:02:08 approximately I I can't claim expert sort of infantile medical knowledge but the size and general appearance of the baby was such that I didn't think you shouldn't be out with a youorn like that and I didn't think think Heavens that's a big baby to be carrying around so I
04:02:21 a big baby to be carrying around so I don't know how old uh measured in months rather than years weeks rather than months undecided between weeks and months I would say and so I I I just through the uh the pressure of the crowd the way we're
04:02:37 pressure of the crowd the way we're moving I I followed them for a few yards but I I made no attempt to uh ident to introduce myself I saw no reason for that and uh I think it was then that I recognized my my own comrades and peeled off and that was the end of it can I come back to the first conversation you had with hm67 yes now
04:02:53 conversation you had with hm67 yes now that you've given us the context and can we look please at page eight of your witness statement paragraph
04:03:12 21 right I think here you'll describing the circumstances leading up to hn 67 telling you that um he had made a woman pregnant and you say when an attractive bid walked across our field of view as an attempt at Lis humor I said something like there's a
04:03:28 humor I said something like there's a reduction and at this point hn 67 made a comment to the effect that they needed to get a
04:03:33 to get a visectomy that is correct yes putting to one side exactly what you said the description of it is Ladish humor and hn 67's response was to the effect that he needed to get a vasectomy was that sort
04:03:45 needed to get a vasectomy was that sort of St standard interaction if I can put it that way at the pub between SDS undercover officers at that time I it so the opposite of standard interaction that um no it just I mean if I can use
04:03:59 that um no it just I mean if I can use one word to describe my reaction it was dumbfounded I was sorry I'm not talking about the disclosure that he made to you I'm simply initially talking about the exchange of Ladish humor as you call it
04:04:12 exchange of Ladish humor as you call it there I would say that the general level of conversation was neither conspicuously bardy nor conspicuously Prim uh probably typical of men at that time in society typical in your experience of men in the SDS at that
04:04:25 experience of men in the SDS at that time uh yes I say just reflected The Wider
04:04:26 Wider Society his response thereafter um was that he as far as he knew you say in your statement he had made a com a comrade had become pregnant
04:04:42 made a com a comrade had become pregnant by him he volunteered the information to you so you had said nothing more than the original um humorous remark is that right no I I
04:04:53 humorous remark is that right no I I didn't in any way pose a question to him I was just trying to be a bit smart and probably not in the best of taste but uh and how when he delivered that information to you in what Manner did he deliver it as if it was a secret or as if it was just information as he might
04:05:09 if it was just information as he might deliver the Sun was shining outside can you give us an idea I would say he blurted it out did he seem himself um in terms of his mood or his demeanor upset or
04:05:21 his mood or his demeanor upset or nervous or any of those things I was so astounded that um impressions of his mood um didn't really impinge on me what your mood
04:05:29 your mood was uh as I say dumbfounded uh conversation did not flow easily obviously I did ask some questions but um I think that as I think I said in in
04:05:42 um I think that as I think I said in in the statement um I was really stuck for something to say so I asked him if by any chance the uh the woman in question was identical with the woman that I briefly met at Brixton and what caused you to ask that question as I say I was casting around for something that
04:05:53 casting around for something that wouldn't uh focus on the uh the bigger questions uh it's if you like a sort of conversational desperation and he confirmed did he that
04:06:04 desperation and he confirmed did he that it was that woman he did yes and how did he go about that because you say he responded to the effect of yes in your witness statement I really don't recall but he may well have just have said yes she was or yes she was
04:06:18 when he told you this news what was your um you've told us that your immediate reaction was um you were astounded or dumbfounded once you had had some conversation with him did you think more on the topic there was very little
04:06:34 on the topic there was very little conversation uh on my part um there was obviously extreme things I could have said but wouldn't have served any useful purpose and what sort of extreme things might you have said that you chose not to say well at loud volume I might well have said what on Earth were you
04:06:53 thinking but you didn't say that I did not say that no why did you not say that uh possibly natural inhibition and still I I'm know I don't know what the
04:07:05 still I I'm know I don't know what the correct definition of shock is I'm not going to say I was shocked but I was having uh problems ordering my thoughts in order to uh both remain civil and constructive and uh not um say anything completely
04:07:18 completely outrageous according to your witness statement uh bit further down paragraph 21 on the page you say that you asked him if an abortion was on the cards and
04:07:32 him if an abortion was on the cards and he said words to the effect of no she's an independent woman and she wants to have the baby that is correct how confident are you in your recollection of of this part of the conversation admittedly after almost 40 years it's GED but I am confident that that was how the conversation
04:07:47 and then you say you asked him what would happen at the end of his deployment and he said something to the effect that it was relatively uncomplicated as she was financially secure having received an insurance payout following involvement in an
04:08:00 payout following involvement in an accident that is correct again are you confident about that detail I'm confident that that's what he said whether it was an accurate reflection of the situation I can't say when you asked what would happen at the end of the deployment what were you what sort of
04:08:11 deployment what were you what sort of information were you trying to get at what was your or what was your thinking I don't know that my thinking was necessarily that rational I say I was still in I suppose I can use the word shock the state of
04:08:25 shock the state of um utter confusion were you thinking for example there's a woman out there who's never going to know the true identity of the father of her child and that's not a good
04:08:32 good thing I don't think I thought that at the time clearly that's been one of my many thoughts uh in the years since but I don't think I thought it at the time
04:08:44 I don't think I thought it at the time probably probably more like the case of uh the officer will have to leave his child
04:08:51 child behind so your assumption on the spot was that this child would also never know who his or her real father was in so far as I gave it rational
04:09:02 was in so far as I gave it rational thought yes did you think about it in perhaps not in the moment but in the days weeks and months that followed my reaction to it and I may be condemned for saying this um just KN
04:09:18 condemned for saying this um just KN gave me a vicarious sense of involvement and I was extremely uneasy about it and if you can sum it up in a few words I felt the less I knew about it the better S so you wanted to know as little as possible that is
04:09:36 correct did you consider telling any of your other undercover colleagues about what hm67 had told you no I did not why not I thought it was entirely a matter for him it was a huge problem but I
04:09:47 for him it was a huge problem but I didn't think that it would serve any useful purpose to to spread it around did you think about reporting it to anyone in the management chain the detective Chief Inspector or detective inspector for example if the thought
04:10:02 inspector for example if the thought crossed my mind I'm sure I dismissed it because I didn't do that why did you dismiss
04:10:03 dismiss it again this was be my gut reaction that it was just such a contentious mess that the I didn't want any form of involvement with it
04:10:16 involvement with it did you consider that what hm67 had done on the face of it was a a disciplinary matter that would have been the least of my considerations considering the uh the magnitude of the situation overall did you consider it important to
04:10:36 overall did you consider it important to ensure that um other officers that might come after you were warned of these sorts of uh incidents potentially occurring so that they could be guided away from it
04:10:49 away from it advisory role did not occur to me at all no what about when you were mentoring for example did it occur to you then that you might want to pass on a cautionary tail and say don't don't do this it was my assessment of the two officers that I mentored that that wouldn't be necessary did you ever say to
04:11:01 necessary did you ever say to hm67 at any point if not on in that
04:11:13 hm67 at any point if not on in that moment what on Earth do you think you've done or words to that effect I never raised the subject with him again I think you say in your witness statement that he raised the subject with you you refer to a second conversation with him he made a casual observation I can't say precisely when
04:11:26 observation I can't say precisely when it was um but it would have been after I saw the woman at the demonstration in London CU I do recall saying oh I saw so and so but I didn't say anything because it would have involved me further in this I say contentious mess so what was
04:11:39 this I say contentious mess so what was the can you be a bit more precise about the nature of the conversation that you had the second conversation as you refer yes we were just Loosely talking about
04:11:51 yes we were just Loosely talking about our forthcoming agendas I don't remember what mine was uh he said he had a large meeting or Conference of the Socialist
04:12:01 meeting or Conference of the Socialist Workers Party and it would be awkward on beh sorry awkward because of the woman and child I most of what I say is not theba him but I do recall clearly he said the woman and child he said child rather than baby and his concern was that it would be awkward I didn't pursue that in which way it awkward could have been all sorts
04:12:15 way it awkward could have been all sorts of things but I didn't pursue it further fine his first reaction just looking back at paragraph uh 21 was that it was relatively uncomplicated because the woman was financially secure I don't
04:12:27 woman was financially secure I don't know about uncomplicated I think he said something like well at least she's financially secure so his main concern appeared to be her financial situation rather than the fact that she would
04:12:38 rather than the fact that she would never should she choose to in the future be able to figure out who the father to her child was it was certainly a concern what his attitude was to the emotional and moral at aspects I don't know so he didn't say anything to you
04:12:50 know so he didn't say anything to you that gave you the impression that he was concerned about the ethical aspects of what had happened no I say it was a very stilted
04:13:08 conversation you um also say in your witness statement you refer to another officer hn 83 I catch the reference yes real en cover name restriction so I'm not going to ask you any more questions about h83 Sav in so far as it's covered in your
04:13:26 Sav in so far as it's covered in your statement um but um you say that um you had a conversation with him that is relevant to this topic can you explain what you recall yes uh if I Wander over into the area where I
04:13:38 Wander over into the area where I shouldn't be talking please shut me down very quickly um it was right at the end of my deployment we were discussing my adjustment to normal office routines and work practices and then without my
04:13:53 work practices and then without my mentioning 67 or any form of prompt um he made a reference to hm67 having to deal with leaving a child behind when he left the
04:13:59 left the fields could you tell me in what what context I think in your statement you refer to h83 giving you a lift home that's correct when this conversation occurred correct so in a car yes or
04:14:10 occurred correct so in a car yes or vehicle was it just the two of you uh the conversation didn't take place in the car it took place in the pub the conversation took place in the pub a
04:14:21 conversation took place in the pub a busy crowded Pub and were there other uh either current or former or about to be SDS undercover officers in the pub with you no not at all just the two of you yes any man and many members of the
04:14:35 yes any man and many members of the public and so in the context of that um Pub uh he said to you that hm67 would be leaving a child behind yes how did you react when he said that I can appreciate that it would be
04:14:50 that I can appreciate that it would be useful to the inquiry if I'd asked all sorts of questions but I was still in the mindset of just not wanting to know any more at all so I said something noncommittal and didn't develop the conversation any further did you gain any impression from h83 and the way he
04:15:07 any impression from h83 and the way he told you this information about whether he thought you would be surprised by it I don't know how safe it is to try and mind the nuances of a conversation
04:15:20 and mind the nuances of a conversation from that long ago but my impression was that he just um said it without any particular ceremony or any particular mood uh my I was actually overwhelmed is an exaggeration but I recall it
04:15:34 exaggeration but I recall it particularly because it was the first indication I had that somebody other than 67 and myself were aware of the
04:15:50 situation did hn 83 Express any view on the morality of the situation no uh I so I didn't actually shut the conversation down but I can't remember what I said but something non-committal and we got on to other topics did the learning that somebody else knew the information prompt you to revisit whether or not um
04:16:05 prompt you to revisit whether or not um you should speak to a manager about what happen no I did not no why not I well it's probably not the best of motives but again I I still thought the
04:16:16 motives but again I I still thought the whole thing was such a mess that I just wanted to be away from it and not get involved in anything um I also thought
04:16:27 involved in anything um I also thought that possibly if hn 53 knew about it it might be much more generally known and might come to light anyway without me sticking my nose
04:16:39 in3 oh sorry I'm just being told I didn't pick up on it but I understand that you referred to 53 did you mean to refer to
04:16:46 refer to 83 I I if I said 53 that was a a horrible slip of the tongue I'm pretty sure I said 83 at every time fine I'm
04:16:57 sure I said 83 at every time fine I'm just just clarifying there's an error on the transcript we definitely talking about 83 I have no idea who 53 is without looking at the list thank you if it's already assistance I thought I heard 83 not 53 okay um did you have any did you give any
04:17:15 um did you have any did you give any consideration to how your managers might react if they were told the information that hm67 had shared with you um again it doesn't cast me in a very good light but no I
04:17:34 didn't in your witness statement you express yourself as being certain as to the contents of your conversation with hm67 when he revealed that he had fathered a child that he yeah that he made woman and do you remember certain
04:17:45 made woman and do you remember certain now the only possible explanation other than the fact that sorry other than that he fed a child with the woman I included in my statement it could if if anything
04:17:59 in my statement it could if if anything is possible in absolute terms I suppose it's just within the bands of possibility that he may have sought some form of uh personal gratification from making a false confession to something
04:18:10 making a false confession to something that he hadn't done and and maintain it but that's just so far off the scale that I wouldn't give that any realistic consideration do you have any reason to believe that that's what he was doing no not at
04:18:19 not at all is there any possibility sorry I should say this you you appear to be someone who's followed the course of
04:18:31 someone who's followed the course of this inquiry are you aware that hm67 has denied that he I am aware of his denial yes does that shake your level of certainty in your recollection of your conversation with him no it does not I
04:18:44 conversation with him no it does not I wish I could say otherwise but no you do you know that he has admitted to having a one night stand uh that's that was the term um recorded um that he used with a woman towards the end of his
04:18:56 towards the end of his deployment I have read just about everything that the inquiry has published and I'm sure I've read that somewhere is it possible that the
04:19:07 somewhere is it possible that the conversation you had with him um has been misremembered and that he was speculating about the risk or the possibility of a pregnancy rather than a pregnancy
04:19:13 pregnancy that had already happened as it were that was already underway I think that's a speculation too far I could be wrong but I say I really truly doubt
04:19:25 but I say I really truly doubt that how certain are you about the conversation you had with hn 83 I have given this a great deal of
04:19:39 83 I have given this a great deal of thought and it's exactly as I put in the statement you are aware are you that hn 83 has denied ever knowing or hearing anything about h67 making a woman pregnant does that shake your confidence in your recollection at all no it does not no can you think of any reason why h83 might deny that conversation if
04:19:51 h83 might deny that conversation if you're telling the truth about it well if I may sort of almost bite back it's not if I'm telling the truth I am telling the truth um I can't imagine I I know 83 was in a
04:20:10 um I can't imagine I I know 83 was in a particularly stressful uh deployment uh it was 40 years ago it may simply be a failure of his recollection was it any part of the culture of the SDS and the Metropolitan Police Service more widely to um as it were cover for
04:20:21 widely to um as it were cover for officers if they had done something wrong so that they wouldn't get into trouble was that anything you experienced within the police not if it would involve perjury or criminality on the part of the
04:20:35 or criminality on the part of the officer who was doing the covering but if it didn't that might be something that you would expect a fellow police officer would be willing to do I think in many working environments if I can
04:20:46 in many working environments if I can can use a clal expression just to cover your back or we've got your back um would
04:20:47 would apply um can I ask you about another aspect of your first witness statement and that's the presentation you recall
04:20:58 and that's the presentation you recall at the at a security services venue yes um you recall it happening sometime after soon after your deployment ended in 1985 in your witness statement yes I was using up accumulated leave so I was still on the books as an SDS officer but
04:21:11 still on the books as an SDS officer but I had completely left my comrades in the field so you're confident about that that time period that it was in that time period are you it would have been October or November you describe in your witness statement um detective Chief Inspector
04:21:25 statement um detective Chief Inspector Tony weight making what you describe as a light-hearted introduction which included a comment to the effect that one of our animal people had been involved in a pregnancy scare but the
04:21:36 involved in a pregnancy scare but the fact of the child being mixed race ruled out the officer entirely how confident are you in your recollection of the comment that you of that comment being made by by Tony we totally
04:21:47 totally confident
04:21:52 confident um you say in your witness statement you refer to it as a light-hearted introduction it was a feeble um not very tasteful joke but uh I I didn't relate
04:22:04 tasteful joke but uh I I didn't relate it to reality um I was aware of who were the officers in the animals field of activity and it never occurred to me although history has proved different it never occurred to me at the time that it could actually be some sort of um reference to what was actually happening
04:22:18 reference to what was actually happening so you didn't link it to reality are you no I did not the officers in the animal rights field at the time you ended your deployment were Mike chitty hn11 I remember Mike yes and Robert known as
04:22:31 remember Mike yes and Robert known as Bob Lambert hn10 that's correct both of those officers have since admitted to having sexual relationships with women whilst under cover are you saying that you had no idea about that at the time I
04:22:45 you had no idea about that at the time I was completely uncited about any form of sexual relationship except that of h67 or the fact that Robert Lambert had himself um made a woman pregnant and a child had been born I was again completely unsighted I know from reading
04:22:58 completely unsighted I know from reading that uh that child was born around about September uh 1985 which just about the time I was easing out so um there would have been nine months where if somebody
04:23:11 have been nine months where if somebody had known about it well nine months were up for S uh when I might have known but I didn't just no incling at all right but that was around the same time that Tony W made this this um comment what you're saying if I can get
04:23:25 comment what you're saying if I can get the sequence correct this comment by Mr weight would have been after the birth of that
04:23:27 of that child was this sort of comment typical of how Tony we spoke you you you say it was a sort of feeble joke um as an introduction were you surprised at him
04:23:41 introduction were you surprised at him speaking in this way I was surprised yes I I hope I didn't show his surprise at the time but um I did think it was again feeble and import
04:23:47 import taste given that he had mentioned um the possibility at least of an undercover officer making a woman pregnant whilst undercover did this not prompt you to
04:24:00 undercover did this not prompt you to approach him to tell him what you had been told by hm67 no perhaps it should but it
04:24:12 didn't um you may or may not be aware that Tony we has told the inquir in his
04:24:21 that Tony we has told the inquir in his witness statement that he doesn't recall making a comment of that sort does that a long time ago does that cause you uh to reflect on your recollection and whether or not your recollection is accurate I'm not reconsidering the truth of what I
04:24:33 of what I said can I ask we please look um now at some notes made by officers from operation Hearn in 2013 when they spoke to you it's MPS 0735 87 three and it's b42
04:25:11 sir um and so that we can see at the top it's an interview with you Monday the 2nd of December 20 2013 and um with police officers right so you were spoken to do you recall being spoken to in 2013 well until we go through this I don't recall the specifics but certainly I was
04:25:25 specifics but certainly I was interviewed by oper sorry officers from operation hn all right can we turn I want to ask you particularly about page something on page two that's recorded um the second paragraph on page two oh sorry it will be page three
04:25:39 two oh sorry it will be page three because there's a cover sheet my fault sorry
04:25:52 can we go are we able to go to page
04:26:05 three all right you are recorded by operation Hearn as having said this he that's you did not have sexual relationships whilst in the field as he stated he was newly word and he did not find any of the women in the organization attractive and there was the AIDS epidemic which became prominent at the time and I asked you about that
04:26:21 at the time and I asked you about that earlier it goes on he was also unaware of any other relationships apart from the earlier comment from Tony white which you had told the operation Hearn officers
04:26:28 officers about um so you appear to have told operation hear that you were unaware of any relationships when you spoke to them in 2013 do you accept that you did not tell them at that stage
04:26:40 you did not tell them at that stage anything about hn 67 having told you that he had made a woman pregnant if memory serves and I think it does um and this doesn't reflect very well on me but I think I managed to steer the conversation away from uh the uh the
04:26:56 conversation away from uh the uh the point of interest and I said something to the effect of I didn't even know about Bob Lambert at the time and they didn't pursue it further if what you're telling the
04:27:08 further if what you're telling the inquiry is true about your conversation with hm67 why not tell operation Hearn in
04:27:13 in 2013 I at no stage relished the prospect of becoming a whistleblower I'm not enjoying it now and I hadn't at the time uh decided rather to accept operation Hearn as an open invitation to tell
04:27:27 Hearn as an open invitation to tell everything you could say that I'd almost proactively decided to lie BYO Omission is that what you did in effect yes at that stage but um once the public inquiry got underway and I saw the
04:27:41 inquiry got underway and I saw the issues list I knew that I would be asked a direct question about what I knew about my contemporaries and I decided the time had come to uh to tell everything so would it be fair to summarize your attitude as as if nobody asked me the direct question I'm not
04:27:54 asked me the direct question I'm not going to tell at the time that would be correct yes reflecting on that do you see any ethical issues with taking that yes I was
04:28:08 wrong if we just move to the later um information that you gave please in 2018 you were spoken to by operation motion which was a team of police officers in connection with this inquiry not not part of the inquiry but on behalf of the commissioner MPS 07
04:28:20 commissioner MPS 07 39129
04:28:26 39129 please and so I think you will have this at uh
04:28:31 b43 and can we turn to page three
04:28:41 please right at the top in italics although it's contained within a different document that is a quote from what's referred to as the contact note from operation motion
04:28:52 officers I'm just reading
04:29:06 to that would be in effect um the turning point when I decided that I needed to tell everything if you if we look at what you said
04:29:13 said and what you told operation motion was that you'd seen hm67 in the company of a woman and you'd seen the woman again at
04:29:24 woman and you'd seen the woman again at a later date carrying a baby that's what you've told us today and then you said according to this record that due to other information you were subsequently privy
04:29:37 information you were subsequently privy to and had not disclosed to date much of which is hearsay you had a reasonable supposition that hn 67 was in a relationship with the woman and was the baby's father do you see I I I see the highlighted patch
04:29:50 highlighted patch yes I would say that um the words such as duter ofation information and subsequently are not necessarily accurate uh the can I just stop you when you say not accurate do you mean it's not what you said it's recorded
04:30:02 not what you said it's recorded inaccurately or do you mean you said it at the time but it was inaccurate I I think it may have become garbled um from what I said as to what was actually written and did you say that much of it was hearsay that doesn't sound like what
04:30:17 was hearsay that doesn't sound like what I would have said I don't recognize that and did you say you had a reasonable supposition rather than hm67 told me that he was the father of a baby uh no cuz I say this this this is
04:30:32 baby uh no cuz I say this this this is um operation Hearn is it not well it was Operation motion that recorded these words and then operation Hearn put them into a bigger I I'm I'm thinking that possibly um one of the uh
04:30:46 possibly um one of the uh employees of operation Hearn recognize there might be rules of evidence that would shut me up from just giving a complete Revelation and that's why this um perhaps rather confused or inadequate version is is recorded in this document
04:31:05 version is is recorded in this document right is the um effect of your evidence that you told them what you're telling the inquiry now or that you told them something with less detail but it's become garbled in the writing I don't recall the precise sequence and I probably not to name the uh the officer or the uh the employee but I was with
04:31:17 or the uh the employee but I was with operation motion staff and was in effect about to tell everything and one of them said you really ought to be talking to operation Hearn rather than to us or something like that yeah and so if we
04:31:31 something like that yeah and so if we just zoom out sorry from this paragraph and go back to the first page of the document um we see that this document is in fact operation Hearn coming to speak to you very soon after you had had your
04:31:43 to you very soon after you had had your conversation with operation motion right so the sequence of events is that you spoke to operation motion on the 25th of July
04:31:47 July 2018 and then on the 8th of August um operation hear officers came to speak to you about it do you see and this is their note into which they've copied the operation motion
04:32:00 operation motion note um what you what it's recorded at the bottom here is it says hn1 19 oop
04:32:13 sorry okay I understand the system has crashed so we'll just wait for it to come back
04:33:13 he you so the boss of that page please still MPS 073
04:33:27 9129 right you made reference to the contact note from operation motion which we were just looking at and referred to the last paragraph of the note which is what I just read to you can we go over the page
04:33:43 please and this note from operation says that you reiterated and confirmed that that summary was correct sorry I've I've lost track of which paragraphs are referring to which sorry so the paragraph in italics at the
04:33:59 sorry so the paragraph in italics at the top of this page is what I read to you a few moments ago it's part of the notes that operation motion took when they first spoke to you in
04:34:07 2018 and the operation Hearn officers who came to see you a couple of weeks afterwards after the operation motion officers said you referred to that paragraph and reiterated and confirmed that it was correct do you see that I see that and if I can anticipate your
04:34:19 see that and if I can anticipate your question um it wasn't entirely correct I was wrong to say so in as many words the uh the actual truth is in my witness written
04:34:33 statement did you tell the operation H officers then that it was correct but you're saying that you shouldn't have done so uh I don't recall such a conversation no
04:34:48 do you um as a result of what you've told the inquiry do you know or suspect that anyone else is aware of the information about hn 67 other than hn 83 uh if I can use my words carefully when um a bar from the commissioner's
04:35:03 when um a bar from the commissioner's legal team uh took my first statement um I was asked questions about uh an SDS officer who was deployed round about the turn of the century uh and I believe in a foot it was stated that um that
04:35:16 a foot it was stated that um that officer sorry I was asked question I can't name him because it's a bit awkward to talk around him but um is it hm 104 cover name Carlo ner yes it is
04:35:28 hm 104 cover name Carlo ner yes it is yes so you can use that you can use that Cipher right so I carry on and you can refer to hm 104 if that's I I I I've lost my flow but um I'm sorry you were saying that that when your first statement was taken your attention was drawn to something yes I I wondered at the time why the barister was asking me
04:35:40 the time why the barister was asking me about 104 and now the join the dots have joined up in what way are they joined up uh because there's a footnote that he made an allegation as up to then I
04:35:51 made an allegation as up to then I believed I was the only person who had provided this information is hm 104 known to you personally not at all no have you ever spoken to hm 104 about hm67 fathering a child not at all
04:36:02 child not at all no do you suspect anyone else any of your former SDS colleagues uh officers or management to be aware of this information other than through the inquiry this has to be speculation but
04:36:15 inquiry this has to be speculation but reason speculation um as in one of the documents that briefly uh flitted past me the uh book undercover by two
04:36:26 me the uh book undercover by two Guardian journalists uh relates without naming an officer to somebody who entirely fits the uh the sequence of events for hn 67 now why it's unnamed there may be legal reasons it may be that the source of that information
04:36:43 that the source of that information didn't know the names but if he even if he didn't know the names there would have been a time prior to that when somebody would have known the name did you read that part of that book before speaking to operation motion and operation Hearn in
04:36:54 operation Hearn in 2018 it's entirely possible I have no accurate recollection of when I acquired it uh I realized that there was lots of things that I was interested in
04:37:06 things that I was interested in and uh well just I was interested and it' be a good idea to buy the book but when I don't really recall
04:37:19 is there any um other information about sexual relationships involving SDS undercover officers that you are aware of and not telling the inquiry because you don't want to be the Whistleblower no I say at the time the only
04:37:32 no I say at the time the only relationship that I had any knowledge of was
04:37:38 h67 um I've just got a few more questions but before I do ask those without uttering it if you do know it do you know or suspect what the name of the woman the name of the woman um who whom
04:37:50 woman the name of the woman um who whom hm67 made pregnant I have absolutely no knowledge if she's even being identified if she's been identified whether she's been located if she's been located
04:38:03 been located if she's been located whether she's been informed I don't know you yourself personally were you ever told it or did you ever learn the name of that woman no not at
04:38:14 of that woman no not at all um finally I just want to ask you um a couple of questions about the um what you refer to in your witness statement as an annual gathering with wives yes um did that happen just whilst you were
04:38:25 did that happen just whilst you were deployed as an undercover officer or did you continue to attend those Gatherings after the end of your deployment the last time I attended uh was when just to go back a few uh a few minutes I was still on the books using up accumulated uh rest days and anual leave and I did
04:38:42 uh rest days and anual leave and I did attend uh the uh up Market shindig for once for a better ter uh but I didn't attend any subsequent Gatherings and um how much talk of undercover deployments was there at those Gatherings as I recall there was a
04:39:00 those Gatherings as I recall there was a sort of studied effort not to talk about work it sort of don't talk shop at the do and were managers in attendance oh yes right up to I think Chief superintendent
04:39:11 level you mentioned in your um the first witness statement you gave that you recalled sitting at the same table as hn 67 and his wife at the dinner in 1985 that would be my final well my wife and my final attendance yes did you feel
04:39:27 my final attendance yes did you feel uncomfortable seeing hn 67's wife after he had disclosed to you yes of course did you consider at any point the impact on her of the deception that had been undertaken by hm67 I had to balance a
04:39:39 undertaken by hm67 I had to balance a deception that would never be revealed against dealing some sort of body blow to their domestic circumstances by telling all and my decision was to keep
04:39:52 quiet would it be fair to say that that you regarded um keeping the status quo as more important than revealing it to her or to anyone else having I'm not sure that risk assessment is the correct term but having weighed up all the
04:40:06 term but having weighed up all the issues involved I made my decision not to say anything
04:40:13 all right thank you I have no further questions but there does need to be a short break now some people have already approached me in the break this afternoon but there will need to be a short break to confirm whether there are any questions from other core participants yes of what length does it
04:40:27 participants yes of what length does it need to be do you think um I imagine 15 minutes I imagine 15 minutes will will do the trick because I don't think there are very
04:40:32 are very many very well then pause for 15
04:40:40 minutes
04:52:39 e e
04:53:32 thank you so you given the time you'll be pleased to hear there are just three short matters that have been proposed um that I will ask and You2 hn9 um just going back to some topics I covered with you this morning some follow-up questions please first you mentioned
04:53:48 questions please first you mentioned going to norch um to research to conduct some research in relation to the identity of the deceased child that you used for your cover identity whose idea was it that you should go to Norwich um it was part of the pattern um
04:54:06 Norwich um it was part of the pattern um I think I said I didn't actually have to apply to go and it wasn't a question of being approved it was fairly standard procedure if you doing any sort of research into the background of the identity that you using uh to visit the place uh I say I I did visit because it was one of sounds awful it's a day away from the office but um yes it uh
04:54:20 from the office but um yes it uh fulfilled some functions uh I don't think it was really vital probably could have managed without it right and how did you come to understand that it was a standard practice or part of the pattern uh the officer 65 who showed me the
04:54:34 uh the officer 65 who showed me the ropes uh said it was and I didn't seek to question it and I don't think I
04:54:43 to question it and I don't think I actually formally applied to go probably said something like to Mr Butler is it all right if I do nor tomorrow and he said yes something like that but the idea would have come from hm65 well from the sou practice not not his sort of um not him being the Genesis of the idea but you got the idea from hm65 is that
04:54:54 but you got the idea from hm65 is that what you're saying correct yes can I ask you then a couple of follow-up questions in relation to what you had to say about Rick Clark Richard Clark um I asked you about comments made by hn 304 that he
04:55:10 about comments made by hn 304 that he was known as a ladies man I think part of your answer was that he could talk the talk about that what sort of thing did he say what was the talk that he
04:55:21 did he say what was the talk that he talked um he was given to shall I say fairly lwd Expressions um he would hint that he was a lario
04:55:28 a lario and believe me I'm not trying to be factious but he had conspicuously bad teeth which um would be a handicap for anybody who wanted to fill that role and I I didn't know what to take seriously
04:55:43 I I didn't know what to take seriously and what not to take seriously and when you say lewd comments do you mean of a sexual nature yes yes and were they about his own conduct or about women can you give us an idea more more more generally about the female half of humanity in general rather than his own conduct and was that sort of um talk
04:56:01 conduct and was that sort of um talk that sort of lewd talk did that seem out of place in special Branch or was that accepted did any I I I I think in any standard um Gathering of special Branch officers Rick would have been um not
04:56:12 officers Rick would have been um not hugely untypical but uh certainly would have been conspicuous by his use of language and did anybody ever call him out and suggest that it wasn't appropriate or anything like that no I didn't no did anybody else in your hearing not that I know no um you also
04:56:26 hearing not that I know no um you also said um when I asked you about whether you knew that he had had sexual relationships in his during his undercover deployment you referred to there being a hint in conversation when you said something about or by reference to your them fiance and he said words
04:56:45 to your them fiance and he said words the effect of that reminds me of someone I knew when I was in the field um why did you take that as a hint towards could couldn't be anything more it may not even have been a Hint it it could even have been referring to a male person that in you in the uh in the field but why when you were giving your
04:57:00 field but why when you were giving your evidence earlier did you say when I was asking you questions about whether you knew about him having sexual relationships why did you refer to that as a hint in that context because it couldn't have been anything more what do you mean couldn't have been anything more
04:57:10 more well
04:57:18 um the risk of going entirely personal I was in the throws of courtship at the time and um I think Rick uh might have wanted to uh either make what could have been taken as a reference to a sexual involvement or
04:57:31 reference to a sexual involvement or just shut me up because I coming on a bit
04:57:32 bit strong but how did that link to his undercover deployment and the question of him having relationships well because he he said it reminded him of somebody that he knew in the field and I don't
04:57:47 that he knew in the field and I don't think is that not explanation enough in itself let me put it this way when you say he knew in the field was the sort of knowledge related to sexual knowledge or knowledge of a woman I don't know I me nature the Biblical term is carnal knowledge but whether he actually meant
04:57:58 knowledge but whether he actually meant it like that I don't know but that's how you took it not necessarily I say a hint a
04:58:10 possibility right thank you than you those conclud the
04:58:18 questions thank you very much for your assistance with my task in determining what happened I'm very grateful for your lengthy and detailed evidence and uh it
04:58:31 lengthy and detailed evidence and uh it will be of assistance to me when I come to write my report thank you sir I'm obliged to the comment you we will resume on Monday at 10:00 thank
04:58:39 thank you
04:59:09 for e