Morning session combines deeply moving testimony from Francis Bennett about his deceased brother Michael Hartley, whose identity was stolen by HN19, followed by HN19's testimony about his SDS deployment. Francis describes Michael as a fitness fanatic, religious, respectful young man who never got in trouble and joined army at 17. HN19 discusses his recruitment, financial incentives, identity selection process, and attitudes toward sexual relationships while undercover.
00:39:26 e e
00:40:17 sir thank you um Mr Bennett should we pick up where we left off I think you were speaking about the process by which you came to find out um about the use of Michael's ident
00:40:28 Michael's ident entity yes um and you were describing that there was a meeting um in Bradford
00:40:39 that there was a meeting um in Bradford where you were present with your sisters and you spoke with somebody from the inquiry um and decided to become involved in the inquiry process correct yes and I think you took the lead on behalf of your family um yes I did um I I just felt
00:40:54 family um yes I did um I I just felt that like U Michael would have done the same for us you know if the roles had been reversed I just thought something had to be done to find out why and how all this situation came to
00:41:11 be um can we turn to Michael and his early life now he was born on the 9th of June 1950 that's right what was he like as a
00:41:22 1950 that's right what was he like as a boy um it was liked by everybody it was very respectful we W um we were all um a religious family and used to attend church on the weekend Sundays and um
00:41:35 church on the weekend Sundays and um never did anything wrong never got into trouble and uh it was a bit of a fitness fanatic um he used to go jogging every day before jogging even became
00:41:49 day before jogging even became fashionable um he used to do exercises up in his bedroom your mother used to say was doing his physical jerks again and
00:41:55 and um he seemed to just about live on a diet of beans and burnt toast yeah I don't know why but he had this thing about burnt toast and uh
00:42:13 had this thing about burnt toast and uh but um it was excelled at school he was a good Sportsman um excellent swimmer and
00:42:20 and um when when he left school he wanted to um join the Army as a physical training instructor so he really worked on his STS thank you Mr Bennett and I know that you've provided did some photographs of Michael to the inquiry I'm just yes to
00:42:34 Michael to the inquiry I'm just yes to ask that those are put up on screen now um it's ucpi 37005 so it's at A2 of the hard copy bundle
00:42:59 why did you provide these photographs to the inquiry Mr Bennett because I I believe it would give the inquiry any insight into the sort of person that Michael was his
00:43:11 sort of person that Michael was his character you know everybody liked him he was very friendly never got into any trouble um I can remember him working out incessantly at home you know he used to do press-ups
00:43:23 at home you know he used to do press-ups with me sat on his back just so he had a bit of extra weight you know I was always SM the time but I should imagine I still we a few St um thank you I think we can take those down
00:43:39 now you say in your witness statement that Michael didn't drink either is that right that's right yes yes like I say he did his best to
00:43:50 did his best to U take care of his you know look after his his body um often see him stud in front of the miror posing you know see which are is needed to work Conex and things like that um constantly doing handstands and lifting weights and
00:44:02 handstands and lifting weights and things so yeah it was it was really really addicted to it addicted to his Fitness under those kind of interests track into his journey into the army at
00:44:19 track into his journey into the army at the age of 17 it does yes um the initial thoughts was that he wanted to join the Army to become a physical training instructor so he could carry on working on that you know while he was in the forces
00:44:31 forces when he left to um join the military I think it was the junior training regiment uhuh what impact did that have on the
00:44:36 on the family um it was strange um um we were all very proud of him obviously but uh
00:44:47 all very proud of him obviously but uh it was strange because U all of a sudden we became a smaller unit and um Everybody missed him he used to write regularly but um yeah we used to look forward to the times when he used to
00:44:59 forward to the times when he used to come home on leave you know and he used to spoil us kids speaking of writing regularly you've provided to the inquiry a letter that he wrote home haven't
00:45:11 that he wrote home haven't you yes could we have that on screen please it's ucpi 37006 so it's A3 of the hard copy bundle
00:45:38 that's
00:46:01 I think we're just waiting for that to come up on screen Mr Bennett just bear with us a moment
00:46:49 here we are um this is the letter that you provided that was written home um by Michael when he was in the junior training regimen is that right that's
00:47:04 training regimen is that right that's right yes um is it okay with you if I read some excerpts from it yes that's not problem he begins with dear Mom and Dad I can't tell you how your letter cheered me up and how I long for
00:47:16 me up and how I long for August um August that day out and that meat and potato pie I'm glad you wrote Because I've been thinking about you all the time and when I come home will be
00:47:29 the time and when I come home will be the happiest boy in the world nothing pleases me more than for you to write and if we turn to page three
00:47:43 please he signs off if you do not hear from me for two days um at a time don't worry because the letter will take ages to reach you I will keep writing to you
00:48:00 to reach you I will keep writing to you I hope you will to me God bless you all Mike and he says PS please write soon give love to Francis honor and your other
00:48:07 other sisters what Insight does that letter give us into Michael's character he he was a a good family boy you know he wasn't a rogue or anything like that he really adored his family he did everything he
00:48:20 adored his family he did everything he could for his you know for everybody in the family um but while he was in the Army he used to send his wages home to my mom to help you know help us all out at all so it was a very selfless
00:48:36 at all so it was a very selfless person and I understand that this was a difficult time for your family I think your father left the household around this time that's correct yeah and sorry you carry on I think that was uh one of the reasons why um that led to Michael
00:48:52 the reasons why um that led to Michael leaving the Army after my father of he wanted to return home to help to take care of him so he home to be in effect the man of the house and support your mother and you and your sisters correct
00:49:08 mother and you and your sisters correct yeah can we turn to the next um stage in Michael's life that's his work in Hull um is it right that he found work over in Hull on a fishing troller as a Cook's
00:49:17 Cook's assistant that's right yes and that was shortly after his 18th birthday correct yes and I think it's right or at least
00:49:28 yes and I think it's right or at least it's what you've been informed that he disappeared whilst on that ship off the coast of aedine and that you were that was communicated to you by the police
00:49:41 was communicated to you by the police wasn't it it was yes how did your family take that
00:49:44 take that news uh it was shocking devastating um we just returned home from church on a Sunday and um I was in the garden
00:49:55 Sunday and um I was in the garden playing with a friend I was only 11 and the rest of the family were in the
00:50:06 and the rest of the family were in the house and when the police came so they went in and um was I heard my mom screaming from the house and
00:50:11 house and U my sister's came said Fran say you
00:50:29 U my sister's came said Fran say you need to come inside so I went inside and that's when I found out that they said that Michael was missing I say Vision dead um my mother was in a terrible state it was like I say it was devastating for all of us and I think you had questions about his disappearance did you get satisfactory answers to them yeah
00:50:40 satisfactory answers to them yeah because um we couldn't understand that U we were led to believe that the the trer at the time was only two miles from
00:50:53 at the time was only two miles from Shore it was a c day and Michael being an excellent swimmer we just resumed that um he would be able to spin that distance easily you know um my mother always said that um she won't believe
00:51:05 always said that um she won't believe he's gone until they can find his body you know um she always held up qu saying that maybe he banged his head when he fell overboard or something and he'd
00:51:20 fell overboard or something and he'd lost his memory and one day he get his memory back come on
00:51:31 how does that experience of his disappearing disappearance um link with the phone call you got in 2018 um to say the police had some
00:51:42 2018 um to say the police had some information about Michael that was it that that's what after all those years we never gave up hope thinking that maybe he would turn
00:51:56 maybe he would turn on um and when we heard that um the police needed to talk to us about Michael we thought maybe they found him as he turned up you know handed himself in and they didn't know it was or
00:52:12 in and they didn't know it was or something and U we we we always held on to that off that maybe one day in W
00:52:24 turn when you found out about the um use of Michael's identity what was the immediate reaction that you and your sisters
00:52:41 had shock horror disgust you know all of the above uh we just never imagine that anybody would do anything like
00:52:50 that um I understand that your mother wasn't around at the time um and that she'd sadly taken her own life that's yes earlier yes to your mind was there any connection between Michael's
00:53:04 connection between Michael's disappearance and that subsequent tragic event absolutely because um she just like I said she she never gave up B that one day would turn up
00:53:25 up after nine years with ill health and the first husband dying the second husband leaving out then losing a son and not knowing whether or not turned I think it just all up too much for her and she just took her own life she tried on a few occasions but we'd always managed to find her you know help her
00:53:48 managed to find her you know help her give her support but as the years went by he slowly deteriorated and I just think it was like you know she just couldn't take
00:53:55 anymore I'm going to move on to a slightly different topic now
00:54:02 um the Metropolitan Police Service have issued apologies for the use of um identities in this way um there's three I want to draw to your attention and
00:54:13 I want to draw to your attention and then I'm going to ask for your reaction to those apologies okay okay so I'll go through each three um together and then we can return to each in yeah okay in July 20
00:54:26 okay in July 20 1 the commissioner of the Metropolitan Police Service then s Bernard Hogan how apologized for the quote shock and defense end quote caused by the use of
00:54:39 defense end quote caused by the use of identities in this way that's the first one the second one and I should say that this isn't intended to be comprehensive of all statements on the matter I've selected three to ask you
00:54:53 selected three to ask you about um the second one to draw to your attention November 2020 the opening statement made by on behalf of the Metropolitan Police Service in
00:55:05 of the Metropolitan Police Service in this inquiry in the first trunch except paragraph 22 referred to the 2013 apology and further apologized for the fact that quote insufficient consideration was given to the impact
00:55:19 consideration was given to the impact that the use of this practice might have on the families of the children concerned end quote and then the third one is in June of this year the Metropolitan Police Service opening
00:55:34 Metropolitan Police Service opening statement for this part of the inquiry paragraph 38 stated as follows the MPS accepts that the managers of the SDS failed to recognize
00:55:48 managers of the SDS failed to recognize the hurt distress and anger that the use of deceased children's identities would cause the families of the children and the public concern that would result if the practice had been revealed it apologizes unreservedly to the families for this it Al it also wishes to
00:55:59 for this it Al it also wishes to acknowledge that their distress will have been compounded by the Revelation that some SDS officers behaved indefensibly whilst while using their children's
00:56:11 children's names do you recall the 2013 apology at the time or was that perhaps before you were engaged in this at all it was before before we were
00:56:22 before before we were involved um what's your reaction to learning of the most recent apology the third I read out um to me it's uh it
00:56:36 third I read out um to me it's uh it really doesn't hold any order to me it's insincere it's almost like it was an afterthought like um it was only the
00:56:48 afterthought like um it was only the issued because it was told to issue an apolog apology and it just seems to be like I say is sincere and ingenuous almost not worth the bit it's written on you know
00:57:02 hn12 himself um gave an account to his risk assessors that I know you've read um there is of course no witness
00:57:13 read um there is of course no witness statement he's now deceased and then the risk assessment made in support of his application for anonymity in October 2017 um I don't propose to turn it up but if anybody's following along it's ucpi
00:57:21 ucpi 29190 he gave the following account quote as the SDS was always meant to be
00:57:33 quote as the SDS was always meant to be covert we did not expect the families to have ever found out end quote what was your reaction on reading this um that just seems to be that there were almost given cat Blan to do
00:57:44 were almost given cat Blan to do whatever they wanted under a false identity you know it's just like an open checkbook all right use this identity go and do what you want there'll be no R questions because nobody will ever find
00:58:04 out I've asked you about your reaction to What has been done what would you like to have seen done um first of all I would like to have seen the practice of the these two's
00:58:16 two's identities to me it's it's just totally disgusting and I can't understand how anybody in the right mind would agree to do something like that um when you think of the things that these people got up to using
00:58:26 to using somebody else's child's ID it's it's it's ma of you know no care no no worries about anything at all I can just get away with
00:58:40 just get away with it is there anything you'd like to see happen in the
00:58:46 future uh an assurance that they'll never never use that practice again um yeah um I I couldn't bear to think that they was still doing things like this now and somebody's family further down
00:59:00 now and somebody's family further down the line would suffer the same sort of recurring grief that we've gone through first at losing Michael when he was lost at s and then losing Michael again we
00:59:11 at s and then losing Michael again we found when we found out that somebody had been using his ID it's like all the
00:59:23 had been using his ID it's like all the memories we had of Michael now have been tainted by what this chaptered we can't think of Michael anymore now without seeing like the Spectre of this undercovered officer looking over Michael's shoulder you know before we
00:59:35 Michael's shoulder you know before we held on to those mes but now the all be T to you
00:59:43 know I'm going to ask you some more specific questions now about your reaction or the impact on you and your family um of hn1 12's deployment and I'm going to begin by
00:59:57 deployment and I'm going to begin by asking you about his approach to what's term as Legend
01:00:07 building um it appears that hn12 selected your brother's identity from the public register of deaths specifically the register of deaths abroad how does his approach to the selection of Michael's identity make you
01:00:24 feel I think I think initi way that um he seemed to go about it the wrong way around as according to what it was expected to do in the Traincraft manual
01:00:37 expected to do in the Traincraft manual like they were they were suggested that they should use the child that had died
01:00:52 they should use the child that had died in normal circumstances nothing unusual about it a child that was young infant baby or something like that but um Michael was 18 when he died and uh it it just seemed like it went about
01:01:03 uh it it just seemed like it went about it in his own fashion without a careing the
01:01:13 world I think you were concerned on reading the disclosure as well um about the fact that there was in fact publicity about Michael's death that's right yeah yeah and that was that was another thing that there was um suggested in the tradecraft
01:01:25 was um suggested in the tradecraft manual that that it should should be unspectacular there's no mention of anything in I saw newspapers or anything like that but Michael Michael was announced in the papers in the local press after he died so um should we turn
01:01:42 press after he died so um should we turn that that was another oversite should we turn that up now so that we can see it on the screen okay yeah it's ucpi
01:01:51 3707 um sir it's at your hard copy A4 37007
01:02:01 and if we could zoom in thank you and you've provided this to the inquir haven't you Mr Bennett That's right yes um where does this come from
01:02:15 right yes um where does this come from had you kept it from the time yes yes we kept a copy of it from the local paper the telegraph dgas um I'm going to read it out so that we can all um focus on what it says and then we can move on to discuss other topics okay
01:02:29 topics okay um so the headline is youth is missing on First Sea trip an 18-year-old Bradford trollman on his first trip to sea was reported missing overboard at raty head abedine late
01:02:45 raty head abedine late yesterday he is Michael Anthony Bennett eldest son of Mrs HK Bennett of nine fairby cloes fagley he joined the crew of the troller James Barry of the Newington steam troller line hall only last Thursday and
01:02:57 troller line hall only last Thursday and lived with with his married sister at 13 Market Street Thornton a search went on all afternoon but was called off at 5:30 p.m. although it was continuing today hope of finding him alive was
01:03:11 him alive was fading the missing youth who has three sisters and a brother had previously spent two spells in the Army after eight weeks at Queen Elizabeth Barracks Crookham Hampton um Hampshire he left to
01:03:24 Crookham Hampton um Hampshire he left to go to Hall a former pupil of Eckles Hill High School he excelled in physic education which led him to seek an outdoor life his family stated last night thank
01:03:39 you um Mr Bennett we also know from the documents that part of hn1 12's Legend as he terms it was that he had a mother with a chronic illness whom he would visit how did learning of that
01:03:53 visit how did learning of that particular aspect of his Legend make you feel
01:03:56 feel it it made made us feel that it was almost like he was trying to mirror mirror
01:04:02 mirror Michael's life as well in his own personal life or in his undercover life obviously because Michael used to do everything he could to get home to see me home when after my dad had left and
01:04:18 me home when after my dad had left and she became unw started to get no he used to come home as as often as he could like you know to go visit her make sure she was okay and we were all all right so just seem to be too much of a
01:04:32 coincidence and given the particular difficulties that you're mother experienced later on in her life did did that affect the way you felt about this absolutely yeah I mean
01:04:43 this absolutely yeah I mean um I I can't even bear to think about what what would have it would have been like if mom had been alive we and all this came to light I mean I know she died many years before but
01:04:57 died many years before but this would have completely destroyed it you
01:05:11 know I'm going to ask you now about the conduct of hn12 whilst he was deployed right um firstly he was arrested and prosecuted for illegal Bill posting using your brother's identity he pleaded guilty in the magistrates court and was fined
01:05:23 fined 5 he has stated that he was ordered to plead guilty by managers how do you feel about the fact that that hn12 committed this criminal offense in Michael's
01:05:34 Michael's identity again I think it's an outrage because all through his time growing up Michael never got into trouble with
01:05:47 Michael never got into trouble with anybody the police never been to court anything like that um and it it just seemed
01:05:49 seemed to add add another thing to the the fact that he just Ted the memories of Michael by doing well did now there's a record in a court somewhere of Michael hary
01:06:00 in a court somewhere of Michael hary being in trouble with the police having a court record being fine Michael never had anything like that so it's just it just seemed totally under under you
01:06:23 know um secondly H2 has stated that he engaged in two sexual encounters in his cover
01:06:26 cover identity he stated that there was no ongoing
01:06:28 ongoing relationship how do you feel about this Revelation again U that that was another shock another another thing that Michael Never As far as I can remember in the
01:06:43 Never As far as I can remember in the Years few years that we spent together growing up I don't remember Michael having a a girlfriend it was always too concerned about you know his own Fitness and getting ready you know to have the
01:06:55 and getting ready you know to have the outdoor life that he wanted to join the arm become a physical training instructor um and thought to hear What U the undercover office Michael's name it's just
01:07:12 aoll and finally in relation to his deployment I want to ask you about how his compromises um as they're termed um impacted you when you read about
01:07:23 impacted you when you read about them we know from the documents that he was potentially compromised on two
01:07:36 was potentially compromised on two occasions um firstly his deployment into the Revolutionary communist group um he was accused of being a police Informer partially on the basis of refusing to provide the address of his mother and drinking too much he refocused his deployment as a result on the Socialist Workers Party
01:07:53 result on the Socialist Workers Party but became compromised again when a link was established between his real life and his undercover identity um he was accused of being a police
01:08:05 um he was accused of being a police officer and was quickly removed from the field how did you feel on learning of these two
01:08:07 these two compromises um apart from the fact that um it just highlights the way that this chat behaved using Michael's name um it
01:08:23 chat behaved using Michael's name um it just didn't seem to care you know about the effect it would have on the family if they did find out there was no thoughts about that all and on the other hand it it made me wonder well what was
01:08:36 hand it it made me wonder well what was to stop these people from coming forward and searching out Michael's real family you know if they thought it was a spy how do we know that they were weren't good startop looking for us to you know to find out who Michael hary
01:08:47 to find out who Michael hary was is it that something is it something that has an ongoing effect or not on you or your sister honor
01:09:00 um not not much in that way but more of the fact that um the shock that the police were doing something like this um since we found out about this when we
01:09:12 since we found out about this when we grew up we used to always think that you know the police were always good guys you know they always worked on the right of the side of the people doing you know making sure did right I never thought that police would do anything so under
01:09:27 that police would do anything so under underhanded and to I've just lost trust in in the place since this
01:09:41 happened um I'm going to ask for your witness statement to be brought up on screen again now um it's ucpi 37004 page 31 paragraph
01:09:50 5.8 it's a an excerpt from what's known as the tradecraft manual
01:10:12 um Mr Bennett you've um referred to this within your witness statement um we have a document reference at the bottom of the screen if anybody needs to follow along just for clarity um the inquiry dates the creation of this document to around 1994 95 so post dates um the
01:10:27 around 1994 95 so post dates um the deployment of hn12 but I think it's something that um you want to comment on in any
01:10:34 in any event what I'm going to do is I'm going to read it out in full as we can see there with the bold and underlined text that you've or your legal team have inserted and then I'll ask you to comment on some sections of it is that
01:10:54 okay um so the tradecraft manual in your words reflects the total disdain the SDS had for the victims of ident theft by the undercover officers a new quote from the
01:11:00 the manual by tradition the aspiring SDS officer's first major task on joining the back office was to spend hours and hours at St Katherine's house leafing
01:11:13 hours at St Katherine's house leafing through death registers in search of a name he could call his own on finding and you're bold and
01:11:24 own on finding and you're bold and underline a suitable ex person usually a deceased child or young person with a fairly Anonymous name the circumstances of his or her untimely demise was investigated and a section highlighted again to follow if the death was natural or
01:11:35 follow if the death was natural or otherwise unspectacular and therefore unlikely to be findable in newspapers or other public records just pausing there have you highlighted that because in
01:11:47 have you highlighted that because in fact there is a record in the newspaper of your brother's death that's right yeah it's like I said before it seemed like the undercovered officer was just going going his own way and not following the tra
01:12:04 following the tra manual continuing the SDS officer would apply for a copy of the Dead person's birth
01:12:07 birth certificate further research would follow to establish the and a highlighted section here respiratory status of the Dead person's family if any and if they were still breathing where they were living if all was
01:12:21 where they were living if all was suitably obscure and there was little chance of the SDS officer or more importantly one of the we running into the dead person's parents or siblings Etc the SDS officer would assume
01:12:36 Etc the SDS officer would assume squatter's rights over the unfortunates identity for the next four years and that ends that section um Mr
01:12:48 section um Mr Benet firstly a suitable expers usually a deceased child how did you feel on reading about this it just seems to be a tot of disgusting way of of doing their business like the whole thing is like
01:13:02 business like the whole thing is like dehumanizing the people that they they were using for their
01:13:08 idas they we just looking at them as Commodities to
01:13:16 use and then the final section that you've highlighted further research would follow to establish the respiratory status of the Dead person's family how did that particular line make you feel in the circum cumstances of your
01:13:26 your family again it's like there's there's no thought or empathy for the people who would be dragged into this it's like the whole thing they're just talking about
01:13:40 whole thing they're just talking about people like they were objects for them to use there's no like
01:13:52 respect Mr Bennett thank you um that's the end of the questions I have for you at the moment um so I think we need to go to a break at this point yes we do Mr Ben would you bear with us for 15 minutes please um the practice that the inquiry follows is to allow anyone who
01:14:05 inquiry follows is to allow anyone who may have any questions that they would like to be put to you uh to speak to um uh Council to the inquiry so that he can do that in in 15 minutes time but uh
01:14:20 do that in in 15 minutes time but uh okay would would would you bear with us for the 15 minutes please absolutely thank
01:14:24 you
01:29:23 e e
01:30:26 Mr V there is as it turns out um one uh question uh by uh Miss CA Kum R let go around thank you sir
01:30:36 um Mr Bennett uh you were asked about your immediate reaction to learning about hn1 12's finding and using Michael's identity I just want to turn now to the ongoing impact if any learning this information has had on you
01:30:48 learning this information has had on you if we can call up your witness statement ucpi
01:30:50 ucpi 37004 and turn to page 12
01:31:05 and if we can turn briefly to paragraph 2.46 I won't read it out
01:31:07 out oh sorry I think it's the following page oh no so this is it sorry I won't read it out loud um if you could just read that to yourself and then if we can turn to page 13
01:31:28 and turn up paragraph 2.49 to
01:31:44 251 now Mr Bennett please um could you describe for the chair how your health and well-being have been affected by learning of hn1 12's actions um I've been um when I was born
01:31:58 actions um I've been um when I was born out I've had Asma since I was Bor and as I've grown older my health has become gradually worse um I've had to take early retirement in 61 because of health problems because of breathing problems and since we found out about the actions
01:32:18 and since we found out about the actions of hn he I will admit that my health has deteriorated even quicker than it had done before um um among and to the presentence and um finding it hard to
01:32:32 presentence and um finding it hard to sleep at night uh it's just constant FSE going through the head you know about the actions of hent for how it's affected all of us that are remaining in the family
01:32:48 the family and particularly on around myself and it just it seems to be an ongoing cycle of just stress doubt paranoia because because we
01:32:59 doubt paranoia because because we thought you know if we see a strange car outside or whatever we think is that somebody spying you know it's it's strange the way it's affected as all we just don't feel the way we used to anymore both physically and
01:33:14 anymore both physically and mentally and Mr Bennett my last question is um you've uh been asked about officers saying that they never thought families would find out what are your views on families being informed of offic
01:33:30 offic um practices of using names like your brothers to create cover identities I me thinks um that it would have been better
01:33:43 thinks um that it would have been better if we never had found out you know would have continue to with in ignorance you know what been going on but the other half of me I thinks I'm glad we found out because we can do something now to
01:33:56 out because we can do something now to try and help clear my name you know make anybody that knew Michael harler knew that will know that this is not the real Michael Harley you know for the things that H in Michael Harley was completely different to the way this chat
01:34:09 different to the way this chat behaved we need to we need to you know hear his name even though he did nothing wrong so just following through
01:34:22 nothing wrong so just following through on that Mr Bennett um do you think that families should then have been told about the practice um like to say yes yes I do yes and I think
01:34:31 think um I'm not saying that the Poli should have asked for permission to use the ID use the child's ID but I do think that there could have been made aware of this F before it all came to
01:34:44 F before it all came to light okay thank you Mr vennett Mr Bennett thank you very much for the evidence that you've given um you have um brought to life the impact
01:35:06 you have um brought to life the impact which uh the use of this practice had on real people and you have um expressed that which um many people in your position will feel that uh it has undermined the trust that you had placed up to now in the
01:35:18 up to now in the police very grateful to you for your assistance and um thank you your your evidence is now finished thank you I won't say it wasn't caring but thank you for giving me the
01:35:34 opportunity I have heard what you said and
01:35:38 and uh all I can do in return is to express to reexpress my gratitude to you thank you thank you yes um Mr Bennett can now I think be um turned off can he not thank you
01:36:10 good and we will now proceed to hear the live evidence of hn9 um those uh in this room will see and hear it uh those uh who are
01:36:21 and hear it uh those uh who are listening uh outside this room will only hear it because uh of a restriction that is placed upon broadcasting His
01:36:37 Image I'm not going to rise the it creates more trouble than it's
01:36:52 worth turn that's the same
01:37:22 again
01:42:22 e e
01:43:37 you repeat after me I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give
01:43:54 affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank
01:44:09 you m g thank you sir um I'm going to refer to you as hn1 19 because there is a restriction order which covers your real name and identity and um no disrespect meant but that's how I will refer to you so I'm not going to ask you to give your name for obvious reasons can I ask please
01:44:22 for obvious reasons can I ask please that we start um by bringing up onto the screen MP s at 074
01:44:27 074 710 and hn9 this is in fact the second witness statement that you gave to the inquiry dated the 28th of May of
01:44:51 2021 do you recognize that witness statement it certainly looks like it yes and can we then bring up also MPS 0731 96
01:45:00 69 a statement dated the 26th of September of 2018 that's your first witness statement to this inquiry do you recognize that that's consistent with what I remember yes and can you confirm that the contents of both of those
01:45:11 that the contents of both of those statements are true to the best of your
01:45:19 statements are true to the best of your recollection and belief yes I'll confirm that thank you and those will stand as your written evidence to the inquiry what I'm going to do uh during the course of the rest of today is ask you some questions about particular topics that arise from that written evidence do you follow understand can I just start by setting a little bit of the background um you joined the
01:45:31 background um you joined the Metropolitan Police Service in the early 1970s is that right correct initially as a probationary Constable doing ordinary station duties correct you did that I think for a
01:45:42 correct you did that I think for a couple of years is that right that's correct and would it be fair to say that during those years you got a flavor of what it was like to be a police constable in the Metropolitan Police
01:45:56 constable in the Metropolitan Police Service during that ER yes uh I did yes you joined special branch in the mid 1970s that's correct did you perceive the culture of special Branch to differ in any way from the culture in The Wider Metropolitan Police
01:46:10 Metropolitan Police Service that's a wide ranging question which I'll try to answer shortly um without being elitist about it um it was something apart from normal street duties and crime crime
01:46:26 duties and crime crime detection in terms of the work that was carried out it was essentially inquiry work rather than arresting people all the
01:46:32 the time I'll come back to some questions later more specific questions about aspects of the culture amongst the
01:46:41 officers just sticking with before you joined the SDS but whilst you were in special
01:46:43 special Branch you um amongst others served for a time um on C Squad is that right yes I did yes uh the trotski section as I
01:46:56 did yes uh the trotski section as I recall yes um and that meant inquiries into leftwing groups which I think in your statement you say included the Socialist Workers Party the swp they were just transitioning from being the
01:47:07 were just transitioning from being the international socialist at that time so part of your duties would have been considering Intelligence on the international socialists yes he was can you give us some idea of what the um attitude was towards groups
01:47:20 the um attitude was towards groups leftwing groups like that within special Branch were they seen generally as having any shared political values with those doing the work or were they seen as completely alien in terms of political
01:47:34 political approach it was almost um a recurring comic theme that uh groups on the extreme left uh no one was less working class than the one you wanted to sort of have advantage over it was a Eternal
01:47:46 have advantage over it was a Eternal question of the various leftwing groups somehow didn't get together as sort of one United uh Force but were almost more interested in their differences than their Common
01:47:59 their Common Ground so does that sum up how you saw them or do you think that was a wider view amongst special Branch officers working on I would say it was my view reflecting the general
01:48:14 attitude when you were on uh working on C Squad did you have any inkling any idea that um SDS intelligence intelligence from undercover police officers might be coming your way I had never heard heard the term SDS uh but some of the reports that
01:48:27 SDS uh but some of the reports that passed across the desk um if you gave any considered thought to it had to come from certain specialized sources and perhaps one's thoughts tended in that direction without being specific what
01:48:41 direction without being specific what was it about the intelligence that that meant your thoughts tended in that direction well if you had 12 people at a meeting and it was very detailed then there only a limited number of ways that
01:48:52 there only a limited number of ways that the information could have been revealed so that was um an assumption on your part rather than knowledge is that a fair way to describe it it was an assumption yes it wasn't something that I tried and tested
01:49:04 wasn't something that I tried and tested it was sort of question you wouldn't ask but it's certainly the idea that I went along
01:49:10 with are you able to give any assessment as to the value of that sort of intelligence as compared to the other intelligence that you saw whilst you were on C
01:49:18 were on C Squad I would be hard put to give any sensible answer to that uh not assessing the value of the intelligence wasn't really part of my junior
01:49:33 role I'm going to move now please to the your selection and recruitment to the SDS um you say in your witness statement that um an officer named Richard or Rick Clark I think as he was known to you
01:49:46 Clark I think as he was known to you deployed um sorry was your sergeant on special Branch for a time is that right that's correct yes and he was the person who proposed to
01:49:58 and he was the person who proposed to you that you should put yourself forward for the SDS is that right yes it it was him approaching me rather than me lobbying him how long had you worked with him by the time he suggested that
01:50:11 with him by the time he suggested that to you off the top of my head about two years would you say you had a good working relationship together yes he was my supervisor but we were also
01:50:22 my supervisor but we were also friends were you aware at the time that he first suggested you put yourself forward that he had himself been an undercover officer with the SDS in the 1970s not right from the start it was something that gradually developed and and how did it develop
01:50:37 developed and and how did it develop through conversation directly with him or in any other way not so much conversations as occasional references and I thought well I'm not sure what I did think but um it gradually dawned on me that he might have been in something like
01:50:49 like that you say in your witness statement that your your knowledge about the SDS before you joined it was limited that's
01:51:01 before you joined it was limited that's correct and an example you give is that you had no practical grasp of matters such as the daily routine of undercover I had no insult into that at all what did you know before you put yourself forward can you remember well
01:51:12 yourself forward can you remember well first of all I didn't put myself forward I was I was proposed by Sergeant Clark um it would be occasional conversations in the canteen or a reference to
01:51:23 in the canteen or a reference to a property somewhere in London that might have been used as a Tove house but it was all very casual not sort of um anyway formally declaring or revealing information it things were just thrown
01:51:37 information it things were just thrown into conversations as conversations went along usually about something else and can you just give us an idea you say conversations in the canteen do you mean amongst officers who were not in the SDS at the time or I do yes yes and what sort of comments did you
01:51:51 sort of comments did you hear uh give us a flavor if you can I have to think hard on that
01:52:00 um I I really am stuck for an answer on that enough to understand that there might be an undercover unit oh yes yes and enough to understand anything about the manner in which it operated no if I mean if if I can slightly contradict what I said few seconds ago
01:52:17 contradict what I said few seconds ago um I think as with many of my contempor there was an awareness of some units I mean I think everybody knows they were called the haris and in fact I didn't get to know the term SDS until I was actually in the back office uh and it was all sort of super secret and
01:52:31 was all sort of super secret and occasional hints being dropped through force of
01:52:43 circumstance in addition to or perhaps subsequent to um Mr Clark you were also managed by another former SDS officer I'm not going to ask you who precisely because it's a subject of restriction and you described in your witness statement that that former SDS
01:52:58 witness statement that that former SDS officer who I think replaced Rick Clark is that right as your manager if we're on the same script yes invited you and your wife for dinner uh with him and his wife that is
01:53:12 correct in your witness statement you described that dinner as an entirely informal social occasion is that a fair description that was certainly um the spirit in which my wife and I attended yes
01:53:26 yes before you attended did you understand that it had anything to do with your recruitment to the SDS I didn't give it conscious thought at the time uh subsequently even right up to now it might seem quite obvious that um he would at least uh make some sort of
01:53:40 would at least uh make some sort of phone call to the SDS and say how the new new guys looking was there any discussion during the dinner of the SDS I really don't know it's entirely probable that there was but I just couldn't say so
01:53:58 can I ask please that we bring up your witness statement to refresh your memory MPS
01:54:00 MPS 074
01:54:03 074 710 uh Page 6 paragraph 8
01:54:17 please sorry that's my page reference is it
01:54:24 it page six should be paragraph eight why if I got the wrong can you go to paragraph eight
01:54:32 please just go up one more page please sorry that's my
01:54:43 page sorry that might be an incorrect reference could
01:54:54 you no it should be the second statement sorry it's my error let me have a look on if you look on page four at the bottom thank you uh I think you'll find there paragraph eight yes I think you'll have to go over the
01:55:08 yes I think you'll have to go over the page sorry I don't think that's what I'm quite what I'm looking for next page
01:55:20 quite what I'm looking for next page there no page four that there that it uh no I was looking for the paragraph that describes the uh did it may be can we try page eight I'm I'm so
01:55:25 sorry this does describe the
01:55:34 dinner what I'm seeing on the screen is not is not what I'm expecting to
01:55:47 see of1 oh it's page four of 9 so sorry can can the operator can you just scroll up so that it's page four of 91 at the
01:55:50 91 at the bottom so down thank you
01:56:00 you yes thank you so about 2third of the way down the page hn1 19 uh we see Rick you're referring to Rick Clark being replaced by a former SDS
01:56:18 UCO and um the invitation to dinner and what you said there was that um at the bottom there was discussion along the lines of what to expect from the work life balance do you see that yes I do
01:56:27 yes I do yes can you add any detail to what you were or what you learned about the work life balance of the SDS at that dinner I can't really add any depth to those
01:56:41 can't really add any depth to those admittedly sort of not many words it was just the most General sort of chitchat uh I don't even know if I'm remembering or conjecturing what might have been said but things along sort of you know
01:56:53 said but things along sort of you know you might be working long hours or or um you might expect he's been eating unsuitable food that that sort of informal thing just a little bit further
01:57:05 informal thing just a little bit further up that paragraph you say this it served to brief my wife as to what to expect from the
01:57:11 SDS yes um how how did it serve to brief your
01:57:12 your wife uh not so much a briefing just actually meeting another wife who was living the life and um was able to just share her experiences although what I I
01:57:24 share her experiences although what I I can't remember any specific uh exchange between the two
01:57:36 between the two ladies did you understand by the time of that dinner that you would be deployed undercover as if a single man not a married
01:57:40 married man I don't think the question ever arose so your wife wasn't given to understand at that point certainly that you might be out in the world pretending to be a single man for example uh not necessarily as a subject for that
01:57:52 necessarily as a subject for that discussion um but in general terms my wife was pretty well briefed by me as to what to expect although obviously I didn't have the full picture at that time what did you tell her well the the
01:58:05 time what did you tell her well the the accent on whether or not I had a single Persona out in the field um I was sort of assumed it it wasn't something that came up for
01:58:18 something that came up for discussion did the risk of relationships with other women come up at that stage before you were recr recruited are you referring to this dinner or to the office generally uh to this dinner or at any point before you were actually recruited into the SDS well and neither
01:58:37 neither um you also refer in your witness statement to um as part of the recruitment process I think perhaps whil you were already in the back
01:58:50 you were already in the back office the manager sounding out to your wife do you remember saying that um a lunchtime drink was AR
01:58:56 and I don't know if it was sounding Out in the sense of if she's a Baden we can't carry on with him it was just sort of to say
01:59:02 of to say hello was any more information given over at that meeting so I should ask proceeding question were you present sorry were you present oh yes yes I I affected the introductions was any
01:59:14 affected the introductions was any further information provided to your wife by the SDS managers about what she might expect from your deployment at that stage not the recall it was uh in in essence social occasion although it
01:59:28 in essence social occasion although it did serve some purpose to for them just to say hello to my all would it be fair to say that the the impression certainly being given is that
01:59:39 impression certainly being given is that this was all quite informal this process of selecting you and recruiting you to the
01:59:40 the SDS um yes I it was how it was done at
01:59:51 SDS um yes I it was how it was done at that time it was how it was done for me um how typical it was I don't know it may have been more formal for other officers I just don't know
01:59:58 I just want to go back uh briefly to the subject of Rick Clark and his SDS
02:00:05 deployment whatever discussions you had with him you came to learn that he had had a relatively short deployment didn't you it's important that I try to distinguish between what I've
02:00:16 distinguish between what I've subsequently learned since then and what I knew for a fact at the time uh I can't say with any certainty that I knew that he'd had a short deployment but I think on the balance of probability I was
02:00:29 on the balance of probability I was aware that it wasn't the fullest of employment deployments put it like that and what did you know about the reasons for the shorter length of
02:00:40 reasons for the shorter length of deployment I knew nothing at the time uh clearly much has been uh put in the public domain since then but at the time I I knew nothing
02:01:00 did you have the impression that it was widely known that he had had a shorter than usual deployment either amongst special Branch colleagues before you were recruited or amongst SDS officers once you had been recruited not at that time
02:01:15 recruited not at that time no he has been described by one officer during tranch one hn 304 that's Rick Clark has been described as having a reputation for being a lady's man is that something that you were
02:01:30 man is that something that you were aware of he could talk the talk um but I didn't pay that much attention he was although he was a friend he was also a supervisor a little older I got the impression he wanted to impress me as being a man of the
02:01:42 being a man of the world how much any of the talk was based on fact I didn't
02:01:50 know did you become aware either before you were recruited to the SDS or afterwards during your deployment that he had had sexual relationships with women whilst deployed
02:02:03 relationships with women whilst deployed undercover with the SDS not specifically the only hint in conversation I said something with reference to my then fiance and he said well that reminds me of somebody I knew when I was in the field but in what context I don't know that's as far as it went is that
02:02:16 went is that recollection precise or is that the gist of a conversation that you had it's the gist and that was before you joined the SDS yes
02:02:32 indeed did you ever hear other people speaking about his relationships whilst you were deployed with the SDS I don't know that his name ever cropped up while I was on the SDS did you become aware at any stage
02:02:46 SDS did you become aware at any stage that during his deployment he had been confronted with his uh the birth and death certificates of the identity that he had used L
02:03:04 he had used L undercover I don't think that knowledge sort of filtered through to me until around about 20210 when certain uh scandals hit the headlines and uh conversation in the Press generally um May well have included something to that effect so just to be clear are you
02:03:16 effect so just to be clear are you saying that knowledge would have come to you through public sources the press or similar rather than through former colleagues certainly through public
02:03:28 colleagues certainly through public sources whether there was also some from colleagues I doubt it were you still in touch with some former colleagues by 2010 I was still a police officer and so still in touch with former colleagues from the SDS uh not
02:03:39 former colleagues from the SDS uh not specifically no I I didn't have shall we say a post SDS friendship
02:03:47 Network whether or not linked to Rick Clark were you ever given any advice about the dangers of being confronted with your death certificate of your cover
02:03:54 cover identity no I wasn't
02:04:05 no can I ask you uh briefly about the interview that you had in order to be recruited to the SDS you describe it in your witness statement as a casual discussion and you suggest that they the people who interviewed you wanted to get the measure of you does that sum up the
02:04:18 measure of you does that sum up the totality of the interview process that's a fairly accurate gist uh I don't recall any searching questions or do you have any misgivings or tell us about your
02:04:32 any misgivings or tell us about your worries about so and so is all rather General
02:04:33 General stuff did you uh get any impression for example that they were interested in your disciplinary record
02:04:45 interested in your disciplinary record whether or not you had a clean record as a police officer was that ever I don't recall that turning up at all any questions about your resilience how you thought you might cope with an undercover deployment of some length that might have been a good
02:04:56 length that might have been a good question but I don't recall it being asked I think they were interested in your marital status weren't they that's correct you say in your witness
02:05:07 correct you say in your witness statement that you understood that it was policy for the SDS to take only married officers is that right that was a general understanding yes and it was clear in your case wasn't it that the managers were looking for an officer in a settled marriage because you were
02:05:20 a settled marriage because you were fairly newly married at the time time of your interview and you were told to come back in a little while once you were settled weren't you that's an accurate
02:05:32 summary why did you think they were looking for married
02:05:41 officers I can only um drot out what by now is a familiar line that it would be a stable base um and they would stay
02:05:52 a stable base um and they would stay grounded any illusion to any hint of the suggestion that a mar married man might be less likely to enter into a sexual relationship was that any part of the thinking I really don't think that was part of it at all and why do you say that it just didn't occur to
02:06:07 that it just didn't occur to me whether or not it occurred to you did you get the impression that it had occurred to the SDS managers no I did not
02:06:20 no Looking Back Now there was an inherent risk wasn't there in deploying uh men undercover to act as single men that they might be presented with circumstances in which um they
02:06:34 with circumstances in which um they could act as a single man and and have a sexual relationship that was a risk inherent in this sort of deployment wasn't it well with retrospect that is events have proved it to be to be
02:06:52 SE um you I think are aware that the officer known to this inquiry as hn 67 is is too ill to provide a witness statement to the inquire I'm aware of his personal circumstances
02:07:03 his personal circumstances yes he was however spoken to by operation Hearn prior to becoming too ill and he told them that detective
02:07:16 ill and he told them that detective Chief Inspector craft had told him to beware of quote flesh pot end quote females that's how it's recorded in the
02:07:30 females that's how it's recorded in the operation her notes were you ever given a warning of that nature no not at all no did he ever speak with you about having been warned in those terms no and if just to try and put things in the right sequence I don't
02:07:43 things in the right sequence I don't recall Mr craft ever having a direct operational role at detective Chief Inspector level while I was involved with the SDS I think he was either the rank above or he'd previously been on the SDS
02:07:53 the SDS did any of the managers give you a warning of that nature no it didn't it didn't occur to me to ask either why not it's so obviously a a crazy
02:08:12 idea that was your view at the time presumably yes still your view now even more so yes and why is that well the apart from the whole moral debate which is could go on endlessly um there's so many
02:08:25 on endlessly um there's so many opportunities to make a mistake to let something slip to reveal your true identity to say the wrong thing purely pragmatically it would have been a bad idea I say quite apart from the the moral
02:08:38 situation was that something you ever discussed with fellow SDS undercover officers during your deployment no it was not no why
02:08:49 was not no why not well I say from my perspective there certainly was no issue uh uh if other officers were stressed or wondering what to do they didn't voice it it didn't didn't crop up as a subject of
02:09:04 conversation can I ask please that we look at um some notes that operation
02:09:16 look at um some notes that operation Hearn took of a meeting with you in 2013 so it's b42 in your bundle and it's MPS 073 5873
02:09:46 and can we go please to page three of the
02:09:52 document and can we focus on the second paragraph please on that
02:10:11 page hn9 just to give you the context these are notes headed interview with hn9 Monday 2nd of December 2013 um and it's clear that it was with um police officers correct yes and this is um I think their note of the
02:10:25 is um I think their note of the meeting and so when they say he they're referring to you do you follow yeah understood and this note records um you having said this he did not have sexual relationships whilst in the field as he
02:10:40 relationships whilst in the field as he stated he was newly we and did not find any of the women in the organization attractive and there was the AIDS epidemic which became prominent at that time I just want to focus on that sentence you were in fact newly wed at
02:10:52 sentence you were in fact newly wed at around the the time you joined the SDs that is true so that's accurate did you tell operation Hearn that you did not find any of the women in the organization attractive that sounds rather ungracious but yes I did say
02:11:06 say that is the implication of saying that that had you found the women in the organization attractive then the risk of entering into a sexual relationship would have been present I understand the drift of where
02:11:20 present I understand the drift of where you're going but uh but no what was the relevance of saying that I was being a bit Ladish um all the both the officers interviewing me were male and um I I I could have been much Rudder about the
02:11:31 could have been much Rudder about the women in the organization but uh I was I I settled at the level as you see on the page in front of you that sort of um laddishness is that something that
02:11:46 laddishness is that something that reflects the culture of the SDS when you served as an undercover officer I would say it reflected my culture on the occasion of of that interview uh it wasn't necessarily reflecting how the SDS conducted
02:12:02 itself similarly the relevance of suggesting that the there was an AIDS epidemic which was prominent was that to suggest that but for that
02:12:09 for that risk it might have been tempting to enter into a sexual relationship whilst undercover well again speaking for myself um that was just a another arrow
02:12:21 myself um that was just a another arrow in the quiver just to reinforce the fact that uh it wasn't a good idea at all do you accept that the way that you expressed yourself there suggests that it was a matter of
02:12:39 practicality to avoid a sexual relationship rather than a matter of Ethics or
02:12:43 Ethics or principle not quite in the terms that you've used I would say that the practicality was such that the ethics didn't even enter into it
02:13:00 and the sorts of comments there about not finding any of the women in the organization attractive were those the sorts of comments that were exchanged between SDS officers at the time that you were
02:13:10 you were deployed I couldn't say with any accuracy whether such admittedly oish comments on my part were typical um I I really couldn't say did you ever hear
02:13:24 really couldn't say did you ever hear other SDS officers saying similar things it's entirely possible I can't recall any specifics but I can't deny the
02:13:36 possibility can we turn to the reasons why you joined the SDS uh we can take that document down thank you we'll come back to that later um you say in your witness statement um two things that I want to
02:13:51 statement um two things that I want to ask you about you say you joined the SDS partly because of ego and vanity and you also say that you were probably a bit dazzled at having landed what you refer to as an ace posting can you explain why um an offer
02:14:07 posting can you explain why um an offer to join the SDS appealed to Your Ego or to your vanity as part of just the general culture um although it was highly secret there was also an element of Mystique and Prestige to it and um I
02:14:20 of Mystique and Prestige to it and um I was really quite flattered that Sergeant Clark had uh had put me forward what was or what did you regard as prestigious about
02:14:28 about it uh probably because it was hiding behind its Mystique uh and it has to be said it was also a high earning situation so the money side of it had
02:14:40 situation so the money side of it had something to do with its attractiveness I can't deny there was a financial incentive I think you say in your witness statement you were enjoying earning a good salary um as an SDS officer and the overtime substantially
02:14:52 officer and the overtime substantially benefited your take take home pay that's correct do you think that was ever an incentive to SDS officers to um try to justify their continuing
02:15:12 deployment I'm I'm stuck as could you possibly rephrase the question I'm not sure I understand it being an SDS officer on your account significantly increased your take-home pay yes it
02:15:23 increased your take-home pay yes it did an officer in the field say for one or two
02:15:30 or two years uh might I'm suggesting this is as a possibility might think well I'm very comfortable with this higher level of pay let me see if I can make sure that I don't get pulled
02:15:41 don't get pulled out of this deployment by continuing to report what sounds like good intelligence do you think it ever acted as an incentive to behave like that it would be very difficult to assess that but it's entirely possible human nature being given what it is did it have that influence on you I would
02:15:56 influence on you I would say you'll probably be coming to this later but towards the end of my uh deployment uh some consideration was
02:16:07 deployment uh some consideration was being given to me um withdrawing from the field in the spring of 1985 and there was some level of discussion and um for several reasons but one of them was that I was enjoying the the money and the prestige that sorry that I
02:16:22 money and the prestige that sorry that I extended until the full five years so it did have an influence at least to that extent yes
02:16:32 indeed did the fact that the um posting as an SDS undercover officer was seen as prestigious was that just you or do you think that permeated more widely amongst people who went into the SDS it was my understanding and it reflected um sort
02:16:45 understanding and it reflected um sort of a general atmosphere within special Branch prior to my posting do you think that view of the unit as prestigious
02:17:02 unit as prestigious posting led to those deployed in the SDS thinking of themselves as perhaps above or outside of the usual regulations of the
02:17:03 the police uh no I I don't I hope I'm not ringing too much into your question but um there were positive efforts to uh maintain a police culture uh I was a
02:17:16 maintain a police culture uh I was a constable and was um encouraged to take the Sergeant's exam as did several others and the twice weekly uh general purpose has had been meetings also promoted um the sense of still being in the police not uh not being out there
02:17:28 the police not uh not being out there and occasionally just dipping in to say hello to us but those twice weekly meetings were as is obvious from the term just two relatively short periods of time per week weren't they it depended
02:17:39 depended um if memory serves they we would turn up at something like 2 p.m. and uh take anything up to about 5:00 3 hours um and
02:17:54 anything up to about 5:00 3 hours um and it could could be almost entirely social it could be matters of new policy that everybody had to be told about and educated on uh or individual uh matters for uh individual officers we may come back to the meetings but for now you're
02:18:09 back to the meetings but for now you're suggesting that that they were enough to uh remind you that you were police officers
02:18:11 officers first I could only speak for myself I truly believe I never lost sight of the fact that I was principally a police officer and I believe that that applied to just about everybody
02:18:24 looking back retrospectively do you think that can apply to those who have since admitted for example having sexual relationships and their undercover
02:18:34 identities I I don't think I can generalize um dless most of them will be where I am now or have been already um I don't think I can give you a proper
02:18:48 don't think I can give you a proper considered assessment on that let let me ask it this way you considered that you were able to remain conscious of the fact that you were first and foremost a police officer that's correct having a sexual relationship in your other undercover identity deceiving a woman as to who you were as part of your role
02:19:00 to who you were as part of your role that was not consistent with being a police officer was it no it would not
02:19:12 no I'm going to ask you now please about um the time you spent in the back office after joining the squad and the creation of your cover identity do you follow you join joined the SDS towards the end of 1980 is that
02:19:26 the end of 1980 is that right the closest I can say would be October
02:19:30 October 1980 and you were in the back office for around six months I think is your recollection is that right if anything it was the six months was generally considered to be the standard period if anything mine was a little longer can you think of any reason why it was
02:19:43 you think of any reason why it was longer or was it just how it turned out I think it was just the Ean flow of available officers and officers leaving the field and just just the churn you describ in your witness statement that one of the things you did whilst
02:19:56 that one of the things you did whilst you were in the back office was to read through reports that the current field officers were submitting yes I did can you explain the circumstances in which that came about would you receive them
02:20:10 that came about would you receive them from the officers or were they just in the office available for you to consult
02:20:15 consult um I don't recall every detail of every report being submitted obviously but T typically it would be um a handwritten report might be brought back from one of the admin meetings uh the likes of myself or the more regular or senior
02:20:30 myself or the more regular or senior office stuff would would read it through for any obvious mistakes literally spelling mistakes or points that needed clarification and then it was handed to to a
02:20:44 typus when you say um points of clarification do you mean there were occasions that you're aware of when perhaps the office staff would go back to the undercover officer to clarify something or were changes being made in the office I was thinking more of not just uh topographical errors but where a
02:21:00 just uh topographical errors but where a sentence wouldn't make sense uh you know possibly composed in haste and but wouldn't read at all well and uh failed to uh actually say anything that fail to say anything clear in your
02:21:14 say anything clear in your experience were changes made to the substance of what the undercover officers were reporting as part of that process or was it more cosmetic
02:21:29 I truly don't know it's ENT entirely possible uh there may have been reasons why some sections had to be had to be admitted
02:21:34 admitted um so taking out information yes quite possibly it it may have been uh well I'm out of my depth here but qu
02:21:46 well I'm out of my depth here but qu questions of um what can and cannot be uh passed on to to customers to other agencies and it may have been that there's stuff that that wasn't suitable and is that your direct experience or are you assuming that that's what was
02:22:00 are you assuming that that's what was happening I don't directly sorry I don't remember that as being a direct experience
02:22:12 myself what did you come to understand if anything of the undercover role during your time in the back office if
02:22:19 office if anything uh there's been much discussion about subversion and public order intelligence um it was only once I was in the back office and I saw paperwork with STS on it and asked what it was and I S more less said oh they mean us because I had
02:22:33 less said oh they mean us because I had thought that subversion was probably the priority
02:22:37 priority consideration just going to unpack that a little bit so you thought that subversion was the primary consideration at the point at which you joined the SDs that that was my impression before I was
02:22:48 that that was my impression before I was put in the picture and I say quite quite literally I saw the the characters SDS on a document and didn't realize that it referred to the SDS but how did that change the picture
02:23:02 SDS but how did that change the picture for you and they kept it educated me in understanding that the public order intelligence was rather more important than I had previously thought it to be did you get the impression once your eyes have been open to that that they
02:23:15 eyes have been open to that that they were of equal importance to the SDS or was there a different balance it would vary um again don't want to get away from the immediate topic but the relationship with the security service um
02:23:28 with the security service um would would increase and decrease depending on the current uh directives and uh what was uh what was topical uh
02:23:41 and uh what was uh what was topical uh but uh I I would say in so far as it's possible to put a proportion on it it was about
02:23:47 50/50 and what did you come to understand if anything of the roles of the various manag agement staff in the office whilst you worked in that office the level the different ranks and the
02:24:05 the level the different ranks and the roles and the job descriptions were very fluid um when you rang in on the daily ringing to welfare ring just to say everything's all right it would really be whoever picked up the phone first so if it was a sergeant who was notionally
02:24:18 if it was a sergeant who was notionally um sort of uh in charge of transport and admin things he would be fully aware Ware of the uh the actual intelligence side of it and uh it didn't really matter who it was after that of course the the Chief Inspector was in charge
02:24:33 the the Chief Inspector was in charge and this number two was the detective inspector but the uh there was very little rank Consciousness as between the detective inspector and the detective Chief Inspector did you see them as having distinct ranks or were they sort of
02:24:45 distinct ranks or were they sort of interchangeable as managers in your from your perspective while acknowledging that they were two individuals at Different official ranks they were pretty much uh they spoke for each
02:24:58 other I'm going to ask you about training in your witness statement you describe it as a very gradual process of absorbing SDS practices is that an
02:25:10 absorbing SDS practices is that an accurate summary of of the training process at the risk of sounding pretentious the word I would use would be osmosis it just we just gradually eased into an awareness and the routines the practice and what was expected so
02:25:24 the practice and what was expected so very much handed down from those who had gone
02:25:27 gone before uh certainly there a legacy element to it um yes that's fair point did you have any formal training or guidance so for example a someone
02:25:38 or guidance so for example a someone from the management staff handing you a manual or something of that nature uh you probably want to cover it later but there was a loose leaf binder of shall we say collected thoughts of uh
02:25:50 of shall we say collected thoughts of uh officers who'd previously been on the SE and some of them who still were uh it wasn't presented as a compulsory read just and advisable you might want to have a look at this and see what you think how did you become aware of its
02:26:08 think how did you become aware of its existence um one of the management would have referred it to me but I have no specific recollection of it of it happening and you say it was a collection of um things written by either former or then serving officers was that obvious to you just from reading it or did somebody tell you that's what it was
02:26:21 that's what it was would say it was obvious from reading it although I may have been told
02:26:33 also were you told or given any understanding of whether it was to be seen as an authoritative source of training or guidance uh no I say it wasn't just a
02:26:45 guidance uh no I say it wasn't just a random selection of bits and pieces but it was perhaps miscellaneous is better than random but it uh it was not a formal instruction book so if for example you had read something in it that you thought was inadvisable would you have felt free to ignore
02:27:00 ignore it uh again probably jumping ahead but I did ignore the advice to choose the identity of a child who died very young the various reasons one who would present a greater challenge for a researcher was I thought more
02:27:15 researcher was I thought more appropriate let's come on to your choice of cover identity and we'll cover that in a bit more detail I think in your statement you say you were shown the ropes by hn 65 that's correct who was in the back office before you he was
02:27:27 the back office before you he was yes um we know from um the inquiries investigations that hn6 deployed early in
02:27:38 in 1981 so you would have overlapped with him perhaps for a matter of weeks is that is that about right in that sounds in correct so during that period he showed you the ropes indeed
02:27:49 period he showed you the ropes indeed you you say specifically that he took you to St Katherine's house he did yes which is where the records of births and deaths were held is that right that is correct can I ask you how did that come
02:28:04 correct can I ask you how did that come about did did he invite you there did he tell you you had to go there can you give us an idea of how that came about it wasn't something that he uh promoted I don't think you could say that management instructed him to do it it
02:28:16 management instructed him to do it it was just the accepted way to do things uh exactly the the um the sequence of events I don't know it certainly did it certainly did take me there and show me how to uh where all the huge binders
02:28:29 how to uh where all the huge binders were kept and uh got the impression that uh it would be a long and tedious job other than h165 did anybody else in the SDS Management in particular but anybody instruct you to create your
02:28:47 anybody instruct you to create your cover identity in that way no no did you query or question it when it was suggested to you
02:28:55 um are we referring specifically to the use of a deceased child's identity yes uh no it it was obviously distasteful um again perhaps I'm jumping ahead but in
02:29:08 again perhaps I'm jumping ahead but in my case the uh the highest priority was the need to obtain a false driving license and for that purpose if there was a way of applying for one without a birth certificate I wasn't aware of it so it was an essential first step in acquiring a driving license
02:29:20 acquiring a driving license you you say It was obviously distasteful did that occur to you at the time it did
02:29:35 did that occur to you at the time it did yes um the home Affairs select committee when passing judgment back in 2013 said it was ghoulish and uh disrespectful well ghoulish implies some form of pleasure in the activity and it was a very chilling experience looking for young lives that had been taken and uh I not going to put on any false
02:29:48 uh I not going to put on any false emotion I didn't I wasn't terribly upset about it but um it it was not uh a pleasant experience G given that that occurred to you at the time did you ask
02:29:59 occurred to you at the time did you ask anybody whether there was an alternative way no I did not no I accepted it was the way of doing things and why why did you just accept it perhaps I was just complying but I accepted
02:30:16 it did you ever hear during your deployment of an alternative way of creating an identity not during my deployment no did anybody ever set out for you advantages or disadvantages to using that
02:30:28 that method or was it just simply accepted that that's how you did it I don't recall any specific advice many issues have been raised since then of course but at the time no did you
02:30:41 of course but at the time no did you ever consider the risk of the family of the deceased person becoming aware that you had used their identity uh not in so many words at the Forefront of my mind but I did very
02:30:52 Forefront of my mind but I did very minimum Research into the background of the deceased whose identity I used I did
02:31:03 the deceased whose identity I used I did travel to um the hometown of their place of birth and did some searches in the local library I made a point of not visiting the local of uh the deceased address and again you'll probably be touching on it later but
02:31:18 touching on it later but um I had a whole set of contingency uh answers ready which um would build as far as possible many obstacles to anybody who was trying to sus out my my background and why did you do that was
02:31:32 background and why did you do that was that for any concern for the F surviving family or for you concern for your own cover well I'd like to say that it was out of compassion for the surviving family but frankly it was a matter of practicality for cover at the
02:31:45 practicality for cover at the time why did you travel um to a location at
02:31:49 at all uh because that before the days of uh dig
02:31:50 uh dig um databases and so on that was where the local library was and what was of interest at the local library to you this is the vaguest of Recollections but I do
02:32:04 I do recall if correctly uh looking at past numbers of local newspaper to see if there's anything particularly striking about um the family or the deceased himself but why was that of interest
02:32:22 um if the well you're there's one case which is of Interest which I won't refer to but if there had been something particularly newsworthy then that might have been a giveaway when I use the identity so you were looking for things that might undermine your use of that
02:32:40 that might undermine your use of that identity as cover is that yes I mean I I will I admit my main concern was with acquiring an identity I could use it wasn't so much from out of concern for the deceased or his family I think you say in your witness
02:32:52 family I think you say in your witness statement that you sought and were were granted authorization to visit the hometown of the deceased child is that right it's that form of words suggests that this was um
02:33:03 words suggests that this was um something to be sought out and approval granted it was really just part of the
02:33:09 routine but your managers were aware that you were doing it was oh yes and was it ever suggested to you that that was appropriate or inappropriate or anything in between I think it was just a case of
02:33:22 between I think it was just a case of you're going to wherever it was tomorrow uh we'll see you the day
02:33:30 after can I ask please that we bring up um again the notes of the meeting you had with operation Hearn in 2013 it's b42 sir and it's MPS 073 5873
02:33:55 and it's page uh yes that's the page can we it's one two three four about five paragraphs down which begins H and 19 H and 19 took a different
02:34:06 approach thank you I'm going to come back to um your approach to choosing an identity but for
02:34:20 approach to choosing an identity but for these purposes can I ask you this please um three lines down you are recorded as having told operation Hearn that the boy's identity you used was born in Norwich died when he was 11 and then you say the child was quite a sickly child
02:34:34 say the child was quite a sickly child according to the operation her notes is that accurate that is accurate yes and how did you learn that the child was quite a sickly child somewhere when I was going through whatever it was I was going through in Norwich presumably the
02:34:45 going through in Norwich presumably the local newspaper there was some reference to what was then known as um fresh air schools for children who were failing to thrive and I I believe the deceased uh was one such
02:34:57 was one such child so that is based on information you learned during your visit yes to
02:35:13 norwi I'm going to turn now to H how you selected you you've touched upon it briefly but how you went about selecting an identity
02:35:26 an identity and you chose um a child whose date of death came sometime after the date of birth is that right that's correct
02:35:35 yes why did you adopt that approach
02:35:37 approach um the records as I think I mentioned little while ago now at St Katherine's house were housed in very large bulky binders and the um
02:35:50 binders and the um carrying out of any research was extremely tedious and time consuming and I thought that if ever it got to the stage where my comrades people I was
02:36:05 stage where my comrades people I was targeting wanted to check up on me um the more they had to do the less inclined they will be to carry on with it and we have a counting system based in 10 there's no particular reason for saying stop at 10 but I sort of got the
02:36:21 saying stop at 10 but I sort of got the idea lodged in my mind if I got somebody who died after the age of 10 that might have been a sort of self-imposed uh limit Beyond which any researcher would would not go so you when choosing the
02:36:37 would not go so you when choosing the identity you were very much conscious that there was a risk in choosing an identity of a deceased person that research might turn up a death certificate and thereby compromise I don't know that I was very much conscious of it but it certainly something that I was trying to guard against it influenced your choice of identi that's correct
02:36:50 of identi that's correct and I think you say in your witness statement that had you been asked to contribute to the binder that you've referred to the binder of guidance your contribution uh would have been to
02:37:03 contribution uh would have been to suggest that everybody adopted that it would have been to consider that as another option rather than a very young death did you discuss that with anybody before adopting it as an approach not that I remember and I don't think I did
02:37:15 that I remember and I don't think I did at all no and what about afterwards did you give advice to anybody about that being a a a good way or an advisable way to choose an identity unless there is a note from me
02:37:27 identity unless there is a note from me in that binder and I don't believe there is then
02:37:28 is then no just clarify one thing before we go on because we're referring to a binder I think when you gave your witness statement you familiarized yourself with what the inquiry has referred to as the tradecraft binder which it was already
02:37:42 tradecraft binder which it was already published on the website at the time is that right uh I think there's considerable room for confusion here
02:37:54 considerable room for confusion here um again without wandering into uh other Witnesses areas the tradecraft manual with the title tradecraft was as I understand it published much many years after my involvement and the term was still used Loosely uh the the author of trycraft didn't have a monopoly on it
02:38:09 trycraft didn't have a monopoly on it but uh to the best of my recollection it was I say a a collection of A4 sheets and what I do remember about it was they were enclosed in what were then quite
02:38:20 were enclosed in what were then quite relatively new um plastic en VES rather than be subjected to the the wear and tear of just paper in a ring binder I think the point I was getting at is in your witness statement you suggest that what you saw that description you're giving was not the same as what the
02:38:31 giving was not the same as what the inquiry has published no not at all no different entirely in content I haven't read through the actual published tradecraft manual in any depth so I can't really comment on that but you
02:38:42 can't really comment on that but you didn't recognize it as being the same thing to the extent you looked at it I'm I'm absolutely sure it was not the same document but uh whether there's any overlap or uh joint uh content I don't
02:38:53 overlap or uh joint uh content I don't know you weren't in the event asked to contribute to it and you didn't contrib contribute to it is that right to the very best of my recollection I did not contribute to it if by chance there's
02:39:04 contribute to it if by chance there's some sheet in there that says something about to use a child who died relatively late then I must have done but I'm pretty sure I
02:39:21 didn't this idea that there was a risk of being confronted with your death certificate are you sure that that didn't come to you through talk of Rick Clark having been confronted with his death
02:39:28 death certificate in the in the context of absolutes I can't be sure but I'm as just about as sure as a human being can be sure that it
02:39:41 be sure that it didn't that you didn't know you're asking me to jump on one side or the other so I'm I'm saying to the very best of my ability I'm sure that it didn't
02:39:55 um briefly before I move on to targeting can I ask you um about um a home office circular informants who take part in
02:40:07 part in crime it's a circular that essentially advises against acting as an as on provocator does that do you understand that terminology if I I do indeed yes was that something that you were given advice on before going into the
02:40:20 given advice on before going into the field or guidance no no it it was never raised at
02:40:21 raised at all did you yourself have any understanding of the concept of acting as an as on provocator well my basic uh thought would be that it would be wrong
02:40:38 thought would be that it would be wrong but uh I I didn't articulate it or raise it with anybody as a question how did you come to that conclusion that it would be
02:40:44 would be wrong from myate assessment my personal opinion had you ever been taught it in any formal way during your police career up to the point when you deployed
02:40:59 no I'm going to um move please to the decision that was taken as to which group you would Target at the beginning of your deployment all right in your witness statement you recall I think
02:41:13 witness statement you recall I think that it was D detective inspector hn 68 I catch the reference uh using words to the effect we're uncited on the Mau see what you can do about it that's substantially correct yes was that the extent of your
02:41:30 correct yes was that the extent of your um tasking or targeting from management that was certainly the first step
02:41:40 um how I eventually was targeted on the group on which I was targeted was sort of six or one half a dozen of the other from myself and the uh and the
02:41:51 from myself and the uh and the management so so you had quite a bit of influence on the group it was in in in conjunction um the term Maus was used very Loosely and in fact we were behind the game
02:42:06 and in fact we were behind the game there and um this is all in my statement and I don't want to sort of uh repeat what you already know but um there was one particular Marxist leninist group who were considered Ma and they were
02:42:21 who were considered Ma and they were they were led by a very prominent trade unionist and quite possibly in other departments they would have been of interest but they were of no interest to us I did go to one of their meetings and it was clear that they were not to the best use of myself as a resource right perhaps if we can bring up your
02:42:36 right perhaps if we can bring up your witness statement and I'll ask you some specific questions about that so it's MPS
02:42:41 MPS 0747 710 it's the second witness statement the the larger of the two um and it should be I hope unless all my page references are up the creek page
02:42:55 21 yes thank you paragraph
02:43:05 57 all right so we see there that that um reference to being told we're unsighted on the Mau see what you can do about it
02:43:13 about it yes and then you say special Branch records were quite out of date I didn't know how many maist groups were in existence but the one group with the most potential to be a legitimate
02:43:24 the most potential to be a legitimate Target for the SDS had abandoned their adherance to maoism prior to my deployment is that what you were just referring to it is yes when you said that you were I'm not quite sure the phrase you Ed but something along the
02:43:35 phrase you Ed but something along the lines behind the curve on on the maest or out of
02:43:36 or out of date I think I'm losing the metaphor here um all right don't worry I don't want to confuse you what you're saying there is special Branch records were
02:43:47 there is special Branch records were quite out of date so it follows from that that you must have looked at existing pre-existing special Branch records in order to figure out which
02:43:58 records in order to figure out which group to Target is that fair yeah I mean the the FI final two sentences on that uh display uh show how in effect I wasted time um cultivating knowledge I didn't need because it didn't apply to my target
02:44:08 my target group do you mean attending evening classes on modern contemporary China I do mean that yes so you did that but looking back it was a waste of your time it didn't help me to Target the group that eventually
02:44:24 targeted was that something that you did
02:44:26 did um yourself independently of management or was it something suggested to you um I knew that another officer I don't think it serves any purpose to identify him had um gone to evening classes of
02:44:40 him had um gone to evening classes of one sort or another as part of his uh um deployment and it occurred to me that as I knew nothing about contemporary China then evening classes would be a good
02:44:56 then evening classes would be a good idea um at the bottom of that paragraph we'll go over the page you say this as it turned
02:44:57 it turned out um there were two groups the Communist Party of Britain Marxist leninist and then can we please move
02:45:17 along so the Communist Party of Britain Marxist leninist which was totally political with no attendance at demonstrations and the other was the that's the Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain Marxist leninists that is
02:45:33 correct when you say as it turned out there were two groups was that the result of your research in special Branch records or something else a special Branch
02:45:47 records were the special Branch records helpful to you in identifying which groups Target or Not Looking Back I wouldn't say they either helpful or not helpful um they
02:46:01 either helpful or not helpful um they could have been more accurate and up to date and when you say they could have been more accurate and up to date is that because what you learned when you deployed didn't match what you'd read in the special Branch records well as I as I say the the term Mass was applied fairly Loosely to anything that had
02:46:13 fairly Loosely to anything that had Marxist leninist in its title and um there was no special Branch report which would would clearly have told me that the one the first one cpml was a purely
02:46:28 the one the first one cpml was a purely political organization um nor nor did it tell me excuse me nor did it tell me that the RC pbml had abandoned maoism and had uh attached their affections
02:46:46 elsewhere So when you say they were out of date those are the ways in which they were out of date well I can't quote to the dates but um the CP BML maintained
02:46:58 the dates but um the CP BML maintained its uh contact with China I don't know how long but what well beyond my time but the RC pbml the group that I eventually targeted um had left the mar ideology for what they considered was a
02:47:09 ideology for what they considered was a pure form of Marxism lism well before my time I'll come back to the the grps um specifically um can we just whilst we're
02:47:23 specifically um can we just whilst we're on this paragraph you all O say there um just after the the break in the pages I probably read Publications for these groups first do you see that yes does that mean you read open source so publicly available material about them
02:47:36 publicly available material about them in addition to looking at special Branch records
02:47:42 yes to what extent were you able to understand uh the ideology and the activities of the groups from their own open source Publications um quite superficially um I don't
02:47:55 um quite superficially um I don't consider myself stupid but they're cons rather Tangled and uh somebody not particularly politically aware at the time uh
02:48:04 time uh Hardo but there was openly available material that you could consult
02:48:22 yes I think before you came to the conclusion that you would not Target the Communist Party of Britain Marxist L leninist you attended one of their meetings is that right I did yes can we bring up on screen please ucpi 015 286 so it's C2
02:49:00 thank you and we see here hn1 19 uh at paragraph 2 uh on the Friday the 1st of May at Conway Hall the Communist Party of Britain Marxist list held a Mayday meeting attended by approximately 250 persons so do we take it from that that that you turned up
02:49:12 it from that that that you turned up yourself at that meeting quite a large meeting I haven't seen the rest of this report but I do recall one I did attend that meeting and also I recognized in
02:49:25 that meeting and also I recognized in person two other special Branch officers who were there to sit in and report as presumably as part of a routine routine activity so not undercover officers just routine special Branch
02:49:38 attendance uh can we zoom in please on paragraph uh six sorry eight
02:49:52 this is the concluding paragraph in in the
02:49:59 the report it says that the proceedings were rather pedestrian uh in nature at no time was mention made of the party involving itself in its own right in any form of direct political action such as picketing
02:50:09 picketing Etc and then just further down towards the end however it cannot be denied that the overall mood of those present was one of commitment and controlled enthusiasm and it remains a matter for
02:50:24 enthusiasm and it remains a matter for conjecture whether the party is indeed the introverted spent Force which it sometimes appears to be or whether it acts as a secure platform form from
02:50:36 acts as a secure platform form from which its individual members exert their influence through other organizations particularly trades
02:50:47 unions when you said it remains a matter of conjecture in that report that that's speculation isn't it it is yes in in short
02:50:49 short but that conclusion was enough to tell you is this fair that that this was not a group worthy of your attention that's
02:51:02 correct was it um just attendance at that public meeting that was enough for you to know that they weren't a suitable Target it was certainly a deciding
02:51:16 Target it was certainly a deciding factor probably the deciding factor and was the deciding criteria that they didn't present a threat of public order uh that's Fair comment
02:51:27 order uh that's Fair comment yes and would it be fair to infer from that that by way of Target group you were looking for a group um which involved itself in public disorder that yes that's yes I can't add to that that's
02:51:48 true can we take that document down please um and can we go back to uh the witness statement 0747
02:51:53 0747 710 and Page 24
02:52:09 please hn9 this is another section of your witness statement where you talk about how you came to uh report on the rcpb ml
02:52:16 rcpb ml right um and I think it's about six
02:52:27 right um and I think it's about six lines down you'll see this the political aims of the RCP pbml actually were to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat and Arch out democracy to what extent the state should involve itself in that sort of inquiry is for debate do you see that yes I do yes what do you mean by
02:52:53 that it's quite a profound uh thought not necessarily that I was thinking it in a profound way but
02:53:00 um if can I put it like this the groups that we uh targeted were some sometimes very small but we had to think in the terms of a Mighty Oak that could grow
02:53:13 terms of a Mighty Oak that could grow from a tiny Acorn and certainly if the uh stated intentions of small groups were to be taken seriously we could um we could dismiss them as fractious
02:53:28 we could dismiss them as fractious children waiting for them to grow out of it or we could go to The Other Extreme or we could um send the lights of me along to infiltrate them do I take from that that the predominant
02:53:42 predominant consideration was the group's theories or intentions rather than their capability to act I am aware that the inquiry has previously gone to some lengths to uh to point out the
02:53:57 point out the distinction uh all I can say was that uh at the time we considered and certainly I considered it was justified uh committing resources to what may well have been a small group but uh even if they had limited ability to carry out
02:54:09 they had limited ability to carry out their intentions uh May yet to grow into something
02:54:09 something unmanageable so as far as you were concerned that was justification enough for a long-term undercover deployment certainly want I sort it out
02:54:36 yes you mention at the bottom of paragraph
02:54:42 62 having access to existing files on the RC
02:54:49 the RC pbml and special Branch record files for Associated individuals and the organization
02:54:58 yes and so as in the earlier paragraph they formed part of your research which led you to the conclusion that it was justifiable to Target the group is that right that's correct can we go um over the page
02:55:09 correct can we go um over the page please to look at what you say you found in those files uh page 25 paragraph 65
02:55:30 right you say that um the justification for deploying into the RCP BML became clear to me initially as a result of my research into the group with special Branch records although small in numbers the special Branch records indicated a
02:55:44 the special Branch records indicated a track record of conspicuous violence on the
02:55:45 the streets and political extremism
02:55:58 when you actually got into the group that's not quite what you found is it you didn't find conspicuous violence on the
02:56:02 on the streets if I can perhaps cut to the Chase and
02:56:03 Chase and uh without uh detracting from what I mean to say uh they were not the force that they had been they were somewhat spent so if the special Branch records
02:56:16 spent so if the special Branch records that you looked at before you deployed suggested that they that you were going to find conspicuous violence on the streets it was at either inaccurate or out of
02:56:29 out of days I wouldn't say it was inaccurate at all and uh the I don't know if those individuals in this particular case was still around or had an influence but it was something worth considering as I as
02:56:40 was something worth considering as I as I thought at the time but certainly you didn't find that sort of record of violence when you deployed if I can put it in a very few words they passed it
02:56:56 I think you say um elsewhere in relation to this sort of research phase predeployment that you um it was relatively shallow what you were able to do whilst you're in the back office is that
02:57:13 that fair are you saying that my research was shallow or that once I was amongst the comrade my understanding of them was shallow your research was fairly shallow before you deployed I researched if I can use the term with due diligence from what was available yes so I'm not suggesting any criticism no no no I'm
02:57:24 suggesting any criticism no no no I'm not not taking it I'm just suggesting that in the time you had available and with the records you had available it was a relatively shallow research exercise what was available was what was available whether it was shallow or not
02:57:40 available whether it was shallow or not uh time has time has proven would it be fair to say that you you personally didn't have much of a grasp on the political theories the political aspects of the RC pbml when you deployed into the group would be fair to say that I never truly understood what they're after because I think you'll be aware
02:57:53 after because I think you'll be aware that Mr chant um a member of the group on whom you reported Michael chant gave evidence yesterday um and he suggested that you you were never particularly
02:58:04 that you you were never particularly engaged in their political discussions do you agree with that if it's of any assistance I did watch yesterday's live stream so I'm aware of uh that witness's contribution um again it may be something you'll
02:58:18 um again it may be something you'll cover somewhere else but um most of my time was spent with uh I'll say an elderly man uh younger than I am now who
02:58:29 elderly man uh younger than I am now who ran the uh headquarters Bookshop and was that Tom Graham his name is is in the public
02:58:35 public domain do you agree with the concept though that you didn't particularly engage yourself in their political discussions well Tom had had a hard knock life he was a short sorry a self-taught poly and I looked on him or
02:58:48 self-taught poly and I looked on him or the role that I sort of assigned to him and to me was mentor and novice um the core members or the key members of the RC
02:58:56 RC pbml um we're Highly Educated um I don't think I'm stepping out of what I can say when Mr chant yesterday he has a degree in maths he was also an organ scholar studied in in uh in Italy and um both
02:59:11 studied in in uh in Italy and um both musically and politically I was I was out of my depth and I would have had one hell of a job uh trying to discuss in any depth politics with them and and of course the late coros C
02:59:22 course the late coros C you do you think that's was an inherent problem with deploying relatively young special Branch officers into Political groups of this nature that you you didn't have a chance to really get to
02:59:33 didn't have a chance to really get to grips with the political aspects of it it applied to me with my group whether
02:59:45 it applied to me with my group whether it could have applied generally to uh my contemporaries and the groups that they targeted I don't know I think probably not
02:59:55 can we have a little look at some of the contemporaneous documents which relate to um the period when you were deploying into this group can we bring up please ucpi 0
03:00:05 ucpi 0 29202 it's B2 sir
03:00:26 NH hn1 19 just so that you can understand this is a note for file that the inquiry found um amongst the security services records so this is a security service note of as you see from paragraph one a meeting between them uh
03:00:40 paragraph one a meeting between them uh detective Chief Inspector Trevor Butler and dihn 68 of the SDS yep on the 11th of August and it's 1981 you'll see the date at the bottom
03:00:53 date at the bottom so at this stage um this is early on in your deployment is that fair to say within the first few months we saw before in the 1 of may you had attended the meeting at Conway Hall of the Communist Party rather than the RCP BML
03:01:07 Communist Party rather than the RCP BML do you follow yes so about three months after
03:01:09 after that and if you look at paragraph uh 4 you see uh detective Chief Inspector Butler telling the Security Services
03:01:21 Butler telling the Security Services that they were looking into that they being the SDS were looking into the possibility of placing a source in the rcpb ml or one of the other maest groups but that it was proving quite
03:01:36 but that it was proving quite difficult um firstly do you accept that as of August 1981 a firm decision had not yet been made that you would Target the RCP
03:01:46 the RCP BML I would think rather than what you have just said that I probably had been um targeted on the RCP as a as a decision uh but it was
03:01:58 RCP as a as a decision uh but it was very early days and um I had yet yet to make any Headway so when it suggested that it was proving quite difficult does that reflect your experience of trying to become close to the group
03:02:09 to become close to the group um if I can answer the question by coming it from a slightly different angle um in retrospect I was quite impressed by my management the way they weren't chasing me for results at an at
03:02:24 weren't chasing me for results at an at an early date uh and that is consistent with um their understanding that uh I was having a hard job trying to get to the core of the group which eventually I never really
03:02:38 did so in terms of what was difficult it was difficult to get close to the core of the group uh just a completely Tangled politics I I I would always have been worried about saying the wrong thing and
03:02:48 thing and just uh betraying the fact that hardly understood what they were
03:02:59 saying if we take that note for file down can we replace it please with MPS 0730 250 it's B3
03:03:21 sir and just to uh orientate ourselves hn9 we were looking at a note for file recording a meeting on the 11th of August yep and what we see now is um a letter in effect dated the 1st of September 1981 so a couple of weeks
03:03:32 September 1981 so a couple of weeks later two and a half weeks later from box 500 so the security services to the deputy assistant
03:03:45 deputy assistant commissioner um asking for the attached brief which is now up on the screen to be passed to Trevor Butler of the
03:03:54 SDS uh and it refers to um agreement that um the security service would
03:04:04 that um the security service would provide a brief for guidance in relation to efforts to Target the RCP BML do you see that I do yes uh so on the right hand side we see the brief that was provided um do you recall being shown that
03:04:13 that document I may well have been shown it but I don't recall seeing it at paragraph one one it describes the
03:04:24 it at paragraph one one it describes the party as highly security conscious and a slightly Sinister organization do you recall hearing that terminology to describe the group no I do not
03:04:45 no do those descriptions highly security conscious and slightly Sinister whatever that may mean do they match what you found when you deployed uh um again I'll refer to the fact that most of my time we' spent with uh Tom Graham who we previously referred to
03:05:02 and whether they were truly highly security conscious I I I can recall various conversations when I thought well what on Earth are you talking about on the other hand the times and said are you supposed to be telling me this at an early stage um it it wasn't
03:05:15 early stage um it it wasn't consistent can I just make sure that that's under OD so there were times when they told you information and you were surprised that they were telling it to somebody they knew relatively little
03:05:28 somebody they knew relatively little about yes so that suggested to you not a high degree of security Consciousness I it suggested inconsistency did you have conversations which suggested to you that there was a degree of security
03:05:45 Consciousness um none that I recall and can we just also look at paragraph seven of that brief in
03:06:05 please um thank you paragraph seven of the brief sent by the security service um recorded that the G the party has a history of violence and pursues its aim of destroying capitalism with a negative fanaticism do you see that I do yes again A History of Violence is what you've said you found in the special
03:06:18 you've said you found in the special Branch records but it certainly wasn't ongoing violence that you found when you deployed into the group was it that's an accurate
03:06:26 accurate comment and in terms of pursuing its aim of destroying capitalism with a negative fanaticism again that's not entirely consistent with what you found is it
03:06:43 consistent with what you found is it that may well have been their uh their wish list but uh in in practice no to what extent um from from what you saw and
03:06:55 extent um from from what you saw and heard to what extent was your deployment into that group The initiation of it or its continuation influenced by the security service interest in the party I'm unable to uh answer that infall I don't no I don't know that I
03:07:06 infall I don't no I don't know that I ever saw that briefing document although it's fairly consistent with the things that happened at the time so you weren't conscious of being influenced by what the security service might have been saying about the group
03:07:19 saying about the group I I truly don't know it's quite it's quite possible but I just don't
03:07:37 know could we just take that document down please um and just um go back to um hn1 19's witness statement 0747
03:07:47 710 at page 24 so just one page
03:07:56 up and I want to just ask you about um an something in this paragraph we've already looked at this paragraph hn1 19 but I want to just focus your attention around the middle of that paragraph
03:08:06 paragraph um we looked at this to what extent the state should involve itself in that sort of inquiries for debate but that you go on to say this my own mood and the mood in society in Her Majesty's government
03:08:19 in society in Her Majesty's government and in special Branch was that even if they weren't that interesting on the street the extreme politics made them worthy of Investigation do you see that I do see that yes we looked earlier at
03:08:33 I do see that yes we looked earlier at the report you wrote on the meeting in May on the Communist Party of Britain Marxist leninist do you recall that I do and your conclusion in relation to that group that party was that it probably
03:08:49 group that party was that it probably didn't pose any risk of public disorder and so you wouldn't Target it that's correct here you seem to be saying but correct me if I'm wrong that even if the RCP BML wasn't much of a threat on the streets wasn't much of a threat of
03:09:01 streets wasn't much of a threat of public disorder it was nonetheless deemed worthy of targeting because of its politics yes there's an apparent contradiction there I I see the point that you're making but for for one thing the the CP BML was still aligned with
03:09:14 the the CP BML was still aligned with China um the RCP BML was aligned with Albania uh and that's about it and so was that the material distinction between the two in terms of why you
03:09:27 between the two in terms of why you targeted one and not the other it was incidental it wasn't a deciding factor what I'm trying to ascertain is why you
03:09:40 what I'm trying to ascertain is why you chose the RCP BML but not the Communist Party of Britain Marxist leninist was there a a defining feature there there was a lingering potential for Street
03:09:51 was a lingering potential for Street violence was the element that would have swung it so the potential for Street violence
03:10:16 yes given the that it was potential for violence did you see it as part of the as part of your deployment to ascertain whether or not in fact there was a risk of Street violence was that part of what you you were doing
03:10:28 that part of what you you were doing that would be that would have a General application and also a specific allocation sorry a specific relevance to particular events such as a mass turnout for some public
03:10:40 for some public issue but you didn't see yourself going in necessarily to report on a group where you were definitely going to find public disorder you were going to look to see whether there was or was not public
03:10:50 public disorder by this group let's say that the longer I was with them the clearer it became that their potential for public disorder was rapidly
03:11:07 diminishing you say rapidly diminishing was it even there from the start of your deployment well I was worried about it certainly to that to that to that extent it was there uh you know in case I got drawn into anything myself uh whether
03:11:19 drawn into anything myself uh whether that was a Justified where is is open to question we'll come to the specific reports um later probably after lunch but it's fair to say isn't it that you didn't in fact see any any serious public disorder involving the RCP BML
03:11:34 public disorder involving the RCP BML during your deployment I did not see any myself now from the very beginning it wasn't that you saw it at the beginning and it diminished you never saw it did you I'm trying very hard to see to recollect did I ever actually see any
03:11:47 recollect did I ever actually see any sort of eruption of violence and no I did not
03:12:02 no just on one detail of that picking up on um Mr Chance's evidence yesterday um and can we please um have a look at your witness statement again 0747
03:12:14 0747 710 page 21 please
03:12:26 uh paragraph uh
03:12:44 57 in fact it's the second it's it's page 22 that I want to look at at the end of paragraph 57 you describe the RCP BML there as small and very extreme used petrol bombs and had taken up Allegiance with
03:12:57 and had taken up Allegiance with Albania seem to be a very extreme organization in their behavior if taken seriously their plans for how to run British Society were very extreme you didn't um witness anything
03:13:11 extreme you didn't um witness anything on the level of the use of petrol bombs did you I'm not sure what I'm allowed to say
03:13:19 say I'm asking you to shut me up if I'm saying the wrong thing but um in conversation with Tom M Graham uh he was given to talking about when he had been on demonstrations and one particular one uh he said that the uh police officers
03:13:34 uh he said that the uh police officers who stopped him and uh other comrades uh must have had no sense of smell because they failed to smell the petrol bombers that were on their person if we have a look please at page 49 of the witness statement paragraph 123
03:14:09 all right just at the very bottom of page 49 you see I also I also remember my RC pbml Mentor Tom Gray mentioning the use of petrol bombs within the RCP BML I haven't located that yet so I it's just being highlighted for
03:14:27 you I see it now that that's what you're referring to in your evidence just now is it yes that's correct
03:14:38 yes so that's something that he told you had happened yes before your time before your deployment that's correct you didn't see here witness directly the use of petrol bombs or anything close to it during your deployment no I did not
03:15:01 no all right just finally if I may before lunch just one more reference it's a ucpi 018 239 it's c28 sir
03:15:22 this is a report that's been attributed to uh1 19 the 4th of June 1982 submitting the inaugural issue of East London people's news the bulletin of the East London and Kent Committee of the
03:15:35 East London and Kent Committee of the people's Democratic front and we'll come back to the detail where the people's Democratic front was um closely associated with the RCP bbml wasn't it it was in effect the sort of watered down popular version of them to make
03:15:47 down popular version of them to make them seem they were covering more ground than they were can we turn um to the attached publication can we just scroll down pass the report to the next page
03:16:05 please uh just to see so it's East London people's news as described in the report you see and then if we could go please to page six of the
03:16:16 document sorry page five to start with sorry that my page page referencing is slightly a skew today um this is um Mr CH made an oblique reference to this yesterday when he was giving his
03:16:28 yesterday when he was giving his evidence um sorry can we just leave it without the thank
03:16:41 you um an article entitled against terrorism death to Fascism were you aware of this sort of publication during your deployment did you read did you actually read
03:16:53 you read did you actually read them I don't think I ever saw anything emanating from East London
03:17:03 no soorry let me just check because the report to which this is attached is attributed to you by the inquiry you suggesting it might not have been your reporting that submitted this publication I've already in this short space um forgotten what the previous
03:17:15 space um forgotten what the previous report was can you refresh my memory yes can we go back to page one so that um hn9 can see the report
03:17:32 itself right so that is the
03:17:43 report yes I I I now see a sitat in front of me is and so the inquiry has attributed that report um to you it's during your deployment to into the RCP BML yes if I can be quite
03:17:56 BML yes if I can be quite straightforward about it I got that one wrong I I must have seen it to have written that report however brief but you don't recall seeing the document that's attached to
03:18:11 it dep I again I got to the the other screen would help um so can we leave did I did I claim in the report that I read or seen the the East London it's simply it's
03:18:24 the the East London it's simply it's simply submitting it and it's just my question asking you whether when you submitted
03:18:25 submitted literature produced by the group by the party um or the PDF whether you read the literature yourself informed yourself of what it contained in in this specific
03:18:36 what it contained in in this specific instance it would have been just as I submitted it I wouldn't necessarily have read it
03:18:51 Mr Chance's point when he gave evidence yesterday was in short that they were writing articles like this which in which they professed themselves to be against terrorist acts that was no part of the RCP
03:19:03 of the RCP bml's um intention was to get involved in that sort of activity do you agree with
03:19:05 with that I think there may be a double negative there if I process what you
03:19:19 negative there if I process what you said correctly all right did you were you aware of the RC pbml ever supporting terrorist acts not directly
03:19:49 no so it is now 1:00 yes if that's a convenient moment to break break until 2 thank you thank
03:20:15 you
03:22:15 e e