Day 3 of Tranche 2 Phase 4 evidence. First half comprises summaries of three deceased/unavailable undercover officers who infiltrated revolutionary communist groups: HN12 'Michael Hartley' (SDS 1981-1985, infiltrated RCG and SWP), HN82 'Nicholas Peter Green' (deployed 1982-1986, infiltrated SWP and Red Action), and HN67 'Alan Bond' (deployed 1982-1985, infiltrated Brixton SWP). Second half features live testimony from Michael Chant, General Secretary of the Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain Marxist-Leninist (RCPB-ML), discussing the party's history, ideology, and experiences with undercover officer HN19 'Malcolm Shearing'.
00:17:27 e e
00:18:12 good morning and welcome to the third day of evidence in this phase of TR 2 um we're having a short day today uh and the evidence is being live streamed with a 10-minute delay that means that anyone in uh the room may use any mobile
00:18:23 in uh the room may use any mobile electronic device that they have to transmit silently to the outside world uh what they have seen and heard in the inquiry but only 10 minutes after the event being described that is to
00:18:36 event being described that is to coincide with the video stream which is subject to a 10-minute delay you may not use electronic devices for recording the proceedings or for taking
00:18:48 proceedings or for taking photographs I think we're going to begin are we not with um uh evidence that is going to be summarized yes sir beginning with the summary of h& 12's evidence yes and Mr Sav would you like to do that
00:18:59 and Mr Sav would you like to do that micro thank you for pointing that out microphones will now be um I think in
00:19:11 microphones will now be um I think in the right place and I hope you can hear yes so hn12 is deceased there is a restriction order prohibiting the publication of his real name the inquiry does not have a witness statement for hn12 instead it will publish accounts of his deployment from meetings in the
00:19:24 his deployment from meetings in the inquiries risk assessment process and made in an application for anonymity this summary will will summarize and supplement them with details from hn1 12's
00:19:36 12's reporting hn12 states he joined the SDS from December 1981 and deployed in his undercover identity from April 1982 into the Revolutionary communist group The rcg and later the Socialist Workers
00:19:48 rcg and later the Socialist Workers Party until July 1985 when he withdrew after his deployment was compromised for a second
00:19:58 a second time he used the name Michael Hartley based on the indiv identity of a deceased individual the real Michael Harley was tragically killed at Sea aged 18 and his death is recorded in the foreign registry of deaths hn12 noted
00:20:11 foreign registry of deaths hn12 noted the similarity of Mr Harley's name and age to his own and H2 indicated to the risk assessor that he used some true elements about the real Mr Harley's life in constructing his Legend noting that
00:20:30 in constructing his Legend noting that Mr Harley's father's name and separation from Mr Harley's mother were ele ments Incorporated he received instruction from the SDS office about the research for his cover name and he believed the use of the name was quote according to the practice at the time end
00:20:48 the practice at the time end quote H and2 used to cover employment as a van driver for a small metal working company in battery he used a driving license in his cover name and having obtained Mr Harley's birth certificate other documentation he had included included a local library
00:21:05 included included a local library card H and2 noted the only training he received in preparation for his deployment were the informal conversations he had with undercover officers attending weekly
00:21:16 officers attending weekly meetings he described the tasking of his deployment as being to infiltrate the rcg and later the S swp to acquire details names addresses and occupations of members of the rcg and supporters to assess their total numbers
00:21:35 supporters to assess their total numbers to assess their threat from public order and all the state and National Security to report the details of political actions and to report on public and private
00:21:46 meetings a detailed overview of hm1 12's reporting is in Annex C of council to the inquiry's written opening in short that analysis shows that hn2 gave an
00:21:58 that analysis shows that hn2 gave an overview of his first Target group the RC G in a report from December 1982 he stated the group's purpose was quote opposing imperialism primarily in Britain but also elsewhere in all ways
00:22:13 Britain but also elsewhere in all ways possible end quote a further report from January
00:22:14 January 1984 comments that the group's members were quote still active and committed to the philosophy of Communism and the overthrow of British democracy end
00:22:28 overthrow of British democracy end quote in practice the group provided support and direction to several campaigns that hn12 identifies as fronts end
00:22:34 end quote the daughter organizations the Irish solidarity committee and The Stoke Newington and Hackney defense
00:22:45 Newington and Hackney defense campaign the rcj meetings attributed to hn1 12's reporting are described as coordinating support to these smaller groups and managing recruitment he reported on planned
00:22:57 recruitment he reported on planned demonstrations by the RC's sub campaigns until his first compromise examples of this reporting include hn12 description of plans for the Irish solidarity committee to picket several prisons in March
00:23:14 prisons in March 1984 providing an estimate that 10 to 20 people were due to participate in each picket plans for the anti- aoide movements Central London branch in September 1982 included hn1 12's assessment that no disorder is
00:23:26 assessment that no disorder is planned in another report on a planned picket outside South Africa house on the Strand he commented that quote the more strict the policing the more opportunity
00:23:40 strict the policing the more opportunity the rcg will have to cause an exacerbate disorder end quote The Stoke Newton and hacky defense campaign SNH HDC was identified by hn12 as another rcg daughter group he stated
00:23:55 as another rcg daughter group he stated it intended to influence the Colin roach family Justice campaign and recruit members from from the black community into the
00:24:01 into the rcg in addition to attending pickets and public meetings with the group he States lectures on communism held by the SNH HDC would be supplemented with encouragement to attend other rcg
00:24:20 encouragement to attend other rcg campaigns hn12 gave his conclusion that this was quote an attempt to continue their indoctrination end quot the group was reported by hn12 to have approximately 15 to 20 regular members
00:24:33 members he described the interactions of the group with the roach family support campaign and in April 1983 a report described the group being deliberately disavowed by a person connected to the roach family he continued to follow the
00:24:44 family he continued to follow the group's progress when he alleged that the its focus had shifted to concentrate on campaigning for a group of black activists arrested as members of the roach family's support
00:24:56 roach family's support campaign hn12 was promoted to full membership of the rcg in September 1983 before that date he is recorded as
00:25:09 1983 before that date he is recorded as speaking at meetings in connection with the Irish solidarity movement and in a report dated August 1984 he is identified as having responsibility for correspondence and publicity for PWS in the campaign on another occasion H2 also
00:25:22 campaign on another occasion H2 also ched a special meeting of the rcg in March 1983 where the rcg in London were divided into two separate entities in
00:25:34 divided into two separate entities in line with a central party directive on the
00:25:39 the subject in January 1984 he was arrested alongside another rcg member Bill posting for the group the next day he attended HB Corner magistrates in his cover identity to enter a guilty
00:25:50 cover identity to enter a guilty plea a contemporary note records detective inspector short was aware of the proceedings and present in cour to observe hn12 recorded in the aid Memoir
00:26:03 observe hn12 recorded in the aid Memoir for the risk assessment quote that at my insistence under orders from DCI short I pleaded guilty his codefendant also
00:26:21 pleaded guilty his codefendant also agreed to do the same we were both fined end quote both defendants recorded as being five fin5 on that occasion in September 1984 the focus of H and2 employment shifted after he was compromised he was accused by three
00:26:35 compromised he was accused by three senior members of the rcg of being a police Informer a contemporaneous security service memorandum records he
00:26:47 security service memorandum records he came under suspicion for circumstantial reasons being absent for periods from his group and of smelling of alcohol despite his cover work as a driver hn12 remained in his cover address and began attending meetings of the swp's holay branch he reported on public public and
00:26:58 branch he reported on public public and private meetings of the swp including in the private homes of members he reported
00:27:09 the private homes of members he reported on educational talks on subjects such as South African apartheid the troubles in Northern Ireland as well in May 1985 one address to the branch discussed the number of paper sales of the Socialist worker and
00:27:21 sales of the Socialist worker and criticized sales in the holay branch as just one
00:27:23 just one example he reported on individual activists and his reports contain examples of biographic details often including any positions of
00:27:34 including any positions of responsibility within the group and individual's employment hn12 also assessed and reported on the ideology of individual
00:27:46 members his second compromise came in June
00:27:53 June 1985 after his then girlfriend showed to a colleague who happened also to be an swp member he recognized hn12 photographs of her and hn12 in his real identity on holiday
00:28:05 real identity on holiday together hn1 12's girlfriend had on a previous occasion told her colleague that hn12 was a policeman and there is also a suggestion that hn12 had previously met the woman in his real
00:28:21 previously met the woman in his real identity at a firework party an SDS note for file dated July 1985 records hn1 12's plan to inform the swp of his intention to leave the group following his confrontation by one of the group's Sen senior members hn12 admitted to the risk
00:28:32 members hn12 admitted to the risk assessor that he had a brief sexual liaison with an individual from the rcg notes from the interview on the 21st of November
00:28:45 of November 2017 suggested he had two sexual encounters with the activist hn12 stated it was the woman who initiated the relationship and on the first occasion the pair Kissed before being
00:28:56 before being interrupted on the second He suggests the pair went to her flat and had oral sex he stated that no long-term
00:29:08 sex he stated that no long-term relationship developed and shortly after their encounters she formed a relationship with somebody else and left the
00:29:16 the group hn12 stated he did not plan the liaison to develop or gain intelligence reflecting on his time in the SDS to the inquiry hn12 commented quote whatever I did in the s DS I
00:29:31 quote whatever I did in the s DS I believe to have been Justified and proportionate end quote his accounts Describe the impact of his undercover deployment had on his welfare he stated that during his
00:29:46 welfare he stated that during his deployment he was in a relationship and he attributes its end quote because of my alcohol abuse and stress end quot hn12 commented on the welfare effect as such I strongly believe that my Tour of
00:29:59 such I strongly believe that my Tour of Duty in the SDS was the major factor in my life and career being damaged by periods of stress and alcohol abuse end quote the risk assessment Aid Memoir records that hn12 believed the support
00:30:15 records that hn12 believed the support from his deployment was well-meaning He suggests that uh there was a lack of input from experienced undercover officers and a divide between those in the field and the office he illustrates his point with the following
00:30:26 following example after one week weekly meeting and a drink taken I found myself with a good friend who was sitting in my car sobbing his heart out from stress he
00:30:40 sobbing his heart out from stress he felt he couldn't go to the DS di or DCI because they would not understand end quote he experienced illness during his remaining career the inquiry is publishing his sickness record that
00:30:52 publishing his sickness record that describes his treatment for depression and alcoholism prior to retirement he
00:31:03 and alcoholism prior to retirement he was treated in the metropolitan police Nursing Home in henden and NHS rehab facilities and received public and private consultations during his treatment hn12 stated that in the course of treatment he quote felt unable to speak openly about the SDS end quote and
00:31:20 speak openly about the SDS end quote and had felt that being unable to talk about his deployment precluded discussion on the possible causes of his alcoholism so that concludes the summary of hn1 12's evidence
00:31:32 of hn1 12's evidence yes your summary um helpful and accurate though it is excludes one incident of potential importance to the inquiry um on the 2nd of March 1985 eight members
00:31:44 on the 2nd of March 1985 eight members of the swp Holloway Branch traveled to South Wales to donate £450 to the minor strike fund just as the strike was
00:31:58 strike fund just as the strike was ending um his report about the incident is dated the 6th of March 1985 and contains a detailed description of what occurred during the visit and although
00:32:09 occurred during the visit and although he's not named in it it uh would appear to be a report written by someone who was present indeed it does so yeah thank
00:32:26 you Mr Hudson thank you sir um so what follows is an oral summary of the deployment of hn 82 hn 82 is deceased and as a result he has not provided a witness statement to the
00:32:35 the inquiry the only retrospective account he has provided of his deployment is a debrief with the security service immediately upon the conclusion of his
00:32:49 immediately upon the conclusion of his deployment so there is a re there is a restriction order prohibiting publication of h& 182's real name his cover name was Nicholas Peter Green and he went by
00:33:01 he went by Nick his cover identity was based on that of a deceased adult his widow has stated that she went with 1882 to Edinburgh to research the
00:33:13 with 1882 to Edinburgh to research the cover identity and build the legend and that she understood this to be common practice at the time h82 joined the STDs in the second half of
00:33:24 half of 1982 and had been deployed under cover by the end of August 1982 there are many reports attributed to
00:33:38 there are many reports attributed to h82 concerning the Finsbury Park branch of the Socialist Workers Party between the start of his deployment and September
00:33:43 September 1984 some of his reports are of meetings in private homes several weeks after he was deployed 1882s deployment is mentioned in a security service note dated the
00:33:57 in a security service note dated the 12th of November 1982 and I quote having got h82 into finsy park s swp SDS realized that they are overcommitted to S swp at Branch level end
00:34:07 end quote however hn 82 is said to have quote reacted very unfavorably to the idea of a move end quote he was to continue to report on
00:34:21 quote he was to continue to report on the Finsbury Park branch of the S swp until
00:34:24 until 1985 from September 1984 h 82's reporting focused on the group red
00:34:37 reporting focused on the group red action founded by former swp members and later its connection with the Coalition organization anti-fascist action h82 reported that those groups had an interest in physical confrontation with farri
00:34:48 confrontation with farri groups in common with many other SDS under undercover offices throughout his deployment h82 reported on individual personal details examples include
00:35:05 personal details examples include employment particularly employment by public bodies physical features addresses and personal
00:35:12 relationships his reporting on the S swp includes reporting on plans for public demonstrations including discussion of the hurling of quote abuse and hopefully Rotten Tomatoes end quote when the
00:35:26 Rotten Tomatoes end quote when the conservative education Minister was due to visit a local school h82 also reported on a quote swp inspired picket end quote outside
00:35:38 inspired picket end quote outside Newbury magistrates Court where greenham common peace movement movement campaigners were due to appear and he reported on plans to intervene and Heckle during an event at which labor MP Ted Heath was due to
00:35:53 Ted Heath was due to speak 1882 reported on S swp involvement in industrial action including appearance on the picket lines in support of teachers and water workers he reported on S swp support for the minor strike and internal
00:36:05 the minor strike and internal discussions as to the purpose of supporting the minor strike was it supported as an end in itself or as a means to expand the reach of the S swp message and drive up its
00:36:17 message and drive up its membership according to hn 82's reporting this was an enduring debate within the swp h82 reported that the general opinion within Finsbury Park swp was
00:36:30 opinion within Finsbury Park swp was that imminent Revolution was unlikely and no practical preparations were being made for its arrival so he attended the annual Easter
00:36:44 arrival so he attended the annual Easter rally of the swp in skes linkshire on at least two
00:36:45 least two occasions in 1983 the booking form indicates he is skes organizer although what this role entailed is
00:37:04 what this role entailed is unclear he also attended in 198 for and may have reported on the rally that year h82 reported on anti-racist campaigning within the swp according to his reporting there was a tension within the S swp about the
00:37:16 a tension within the S swp about the approach to physical confrontation with members of farri groups like The National
00:37:20 National front this tension led to the expulsion of some swp members who were keen on physical confrontation which seems to have led to the formation of red
00:37:32 have led to the formation of red action a security service note dated the 24th of September 1984 records that quote SDS are proposing to move h82 from Finsbury Park s swp into red action they suggest that
00:37:47 s swp into red action they suggest that a new man will return the S swp coverage to two in
00:37:51 to two in 1985 it was agreed that this was a good idea end
00:37:56 idea end quote another Security Service note dated the 26th of nov November 1984 records that h82 is finding his move into red action to be quote slow progress end quote as they are quote
00:38:11 progress end quote as they are quote careful about potential newcomers end quote on the 28th of January 1985 a security service note records the
00:38:28 1985 a security service note records the following quote hn 82 is finding it hard work gaining the confidence of members of red action we agreed that is worth persevering if only to demonstrate whether the group should or should not be taken seriously end quote on the 5th of March 1985 hn 82
00:38:41 quote on the 5th of March 1985 hn 82 reported on a national meeting of red action with 17 attendees h82 put poor attendance down
00:38:52 attendees h82 put poor attendance down to members being more interested in the quote physical and social end quote aspects of the group's activities in fact h82 reported that the next day 40 members gathered at a pub for a demonstration in support of the minor
00:39:13 strike 1882 reported that red action's ideology included armed overthrow of the capitalist machine and Collective control of wealth according to his reporting red action expressly did not limit itself to operating within the
00:39:26 operating within the law he reported that red action lacked funding and or
00:39:32 ization the reporting of h82 references violence and physical confrontation engaged in by redaction members but it is not clear that he witnessed or became became involved in any of it
00:39:43 became involved in any of it himself he reported that red action was supportive of Irish Republican groups he reports that some members traveled to the anti- internment rally in Belfast in August
00:40:03 1985 1882 reported on the role played by Red action in the creation um of a coalition of groups determined to confront right-wing groups directly that Coalition was named anti-fascist action the group had members from around
00:40:17 action the group had members from around England and h82 reported that within the Coalition red action was a group particularly keen on Direct physical
00:40:30 particularly keen on Direct physical confrontation anti-fascist action or AFA planned formerly to launch on Remembrance Sunday in 1985 at a rally in Victoria h82 reported that that location was chosen to deny the national front
00:40:43 was chosen to deny the national front their usual mustering Point prior to the remebrance day parade h82 reported on internal Rifts referred to as quote birth pains end quote within the AFA in particular
00:40:59 quote within the AFA in particular involving the anarchist group class war and the involvement of unmeshed Desire
00:41:12 and the involvement of unmeshed Desire of newer monitoring project and formerly um that's formerly all y a red action member in the struggle for dominance within the organization these difficulties were seemingly resolved and h82 reported in June 1986 that the Autumn campaign of
00:41:25 June 1986 that the Autumn campaign of AFA was due to be quote the first main initiative attacking rather than responding to fascist groups end quote he reported that the Autumn
00:41:36 quote he reported that the Autumn campaign would be quote the obvious yard stick end quote of the fut future potential of AFA but his deployment ended around August 1986 before any Autumn
00:41:48 1986 before any Autumn campaign during his deployment h82 reported on core participants Lindsay German in her capacity as Speaker andw
00:42:02 German in her capacity as Speaker andw up Central Committee Member and Jeremy Corbin as a member of Parliament and speaker at an AFA meeting sir h182 was debriefed by the security service at the end of his deployment the security service note
00:42:18 deployment the security service note records that h182 would not be replaced in red
00:42:21 in red action it is noted that the membership was quote very young violent and not essentially political end quote and in another note of the debrief that their political and ideological base
00:42:34 political and ideological base essentially focused on quote hard drinking and violent confrontations with the national front end quote the security service note records gratitude to h182 and indicates that his
00:42:50 gratitude to h182 and indicates that his deployment filled a gap in its knowledge of
00:42:56 of redution and so that concludes the oral summary of the um deployment of h82 thank you
00:43:00 thank you I think I'm now going to move on to hm67 even I am indeed thank
00:43:14 you sir hn 67 suffers from Parkinson's disease and he is not fit to give a written statement or oral evidence to the inquiry in February 2013 hm67 spoke to officers attached to operation Hearn
00:43:30 officers attached to operation Hearn about his deployment and late in 2017 a risk assessment was provided to the inquiry in support of his application for
00:43:36 for anonymity the accounts recorded by operation Hearn and the risk assessor form the basis of much of this oral
00:43:49 form the basis of much of this oral summary 1867 used the cover name Alan Bond along with the nickname Bondi this identity was based on that of a deceased child who had died
00:44:02 a deceased child who had died abroad after some time spent in the SDS back office he was deployed into the brickton branch of the Socialist Workers Party around April 1982 and his deployment ended in November
00:44:15 deployment ended in November 1985 he returned to the SDS as a manager from 1991 to 1993 and Sir his time as a manager will be considered in trench three of the inquiry h67 had at least one sexual
00:44:30 inquiry h67 had at least one sexual encounter during his deployment and I will return to this in more detail
00:44:37 later he received no formal training for his role but did speak to other undercover officers whilst he was in the back office in preparation for his deployment as well as referring to a
00:44:49 deployment as well as referring to a quote book folder of tried and tested best practices end quote he was visited by SDS managers before he formally joined they spoke to him and his wife about the nature of the
00:45:02 him and his wife about the nature of the work including the risks associated with quote flesh pots and quote females H1 67's cover address was in Brixton and he arranged it himself
00:45:17 Brixton and he arranged it himself through a letting agency he used a van as his cover vehicle and his cover employment was as a kitchen fitter he stated that the bi-weekly meetings at the SDS safe houses were
00:45:28 meetings at the SDS safe houses were quote an open discussion in order that all undercover offices knew what was happening and could then have an input into deployments end quote he stated that he would hand his intelligence reports in at these
00:45:42 intelligence reports in at these meetings hn 67 stated that he would attend the weekly Brixton swp brunch meetings at which there would be a political lecture and briefings on
00:45:55 political lecture and briefings on upcoming events members would then go to the pub and discuss the allocation tasks so there is a thorough review of
00:46:07 tasks so there is a thorough review of hn 67's reporting included in the annex to council for the inquiry's written opening but in short it reveals the following h67 reported on the routine
00:46:22 following h67 reported on the routine business of the brickton branch of the s swp that Branch was at times known as the Lamberth and cuden swp he reported on political discussions as well as practical arrangements for paper sales and other group activities he reported on plans to
00:46:35 activities he reported on plans to engage in fly posting in solidarity with striking health workers to register opposition at labor party conferences and to demonstrate against the police bill at Brockwell Park in January
00:46:56 bill at Brockwell Park in January 1984 h167 reported in February 1983 that he had been elected to the committee of brickton s swp and in may he chaired a meeting
00:47:04 in July 1983 he took over as paper sales organizer and in August he held the positions of assistant paper sales organizer and representative for tulil West Norwood and strattam he resigned those positions in
00:47:19 strattam he resigned those positions in November 1983 and was moved by the s swp to the Croom branch in February 1984 it is asserted in the risk assessment sir that hm67 was the quote
00:47:32 assessment sir that hm67 was the quote treasurer of the swp end quote but this is not borne out by a review of the contemporaneous documents and it is not an assertion repeated
00:47:48 elsewhere h67 reported consistently that the directions to members of brickton and Cen branches of the S swp was to withdraw in the face of physical confrontation by the national front at paper
00:47:55 paper sales h67 also reported on what he
00:48:08 sales h67 also reported on what he described as quote entirely peaceful end quote demonstrations organized by the stratum group of the campaign for nuclear disarmament CND as his deployment progressed hm67 began to report more frequently on the S swp as a National
00:48:20 swp as a National Organization he reported on a demonstration in Warrington on the back of a quote National callout endot at which disturbances were reported and
00:48:33 at which disturbances were reported and he attended the annual skes Easter rally in 1983 84 and 85 in 1985 the national s swp relocated its print shop and headquarters to
00:48:45 its print shop and headquarters to oval on the 30th of August of that year hn 67 provided a sketch plan for the new building on the 3D of September he met
00:49:02 building on the 3D of September he met with managers and the security service to discuss the new building and they provisionally agreed to meet again on the 6th of September hm67 provided a further sketch plan and additionally sir on the 11th of
00:49:17 additionally sir on the 11th of September he met again with the security service on the 8th of October he submitted further plans details of the electrical and computer setup intended occupants of office
00:49:32 occupants of office locks and access arrangements and the details of contractors being used to install equipment and alarms the security service appears to have been kept informed of hn 67's deployment throughout submitting requests for hm67 to identify
00:49:47 requests for hm67 to identify individuals and provide information about their activities a meeting between the security service and SDS managers on the 24th of September 1984 included a discussion of the merits
00:50:03 1984 included a discussion of the merits of h67 reporting on Brixton X swp rather than cuden swp in addition in May 1985 the security service appears to have warned the SDS about a possible compromise to
00:50:18 compromise to hm67 he was debriefed by the security service at the end of his deployment throughout hn 67's deployment he reported on indiv ual's personal details including employment Family
00:50:35 details including employment Family Heritage pregnancy sexual relationships and
00:50:40 and sexuality h67 sir used inappropriate terms to describe ethnicity and he reported on the activities of children in connection with the s swp in addition he reported on members of the brickston and Cen branches of the
00:50:55 of the brickston and Cen branches of the S swp who were employed by public bodies and on Trade union
00:51:01 connections so moving away from the summary of His reporting the risk assessment from
00:51:14 reporting the risk assessment from 2017 records that in order to affect his exfiltration hn 67 told his swp branch that he owed too much tax and it was time for him to move on his withdrawal appears to have proceeded without
00:51:29 complication contemporaneous documents reveal that on the 20 of December 1983 h67 was involved in a road traffic collision whilst driving his cover vehicle he reported the incident to his insurer in his cover
00:51:58 identity sir h167 has admitted that whilst in his cover identity he engaged in a quote one night standun end quote with a woman during the course of his deployment there is a separate allegation that h67 fathered a child to a member of his Target Group which hm67 has
00:52:10 has denied on the 20th of February 2013 hn 67 was visited by police
00:52:22 2013 hn 67 was visited by police officers attached to operation Hearn to takeen account from him which is recorded in notes of that meeting hn 67 is recorded as stating that he was warned by SDS managers that
00:52:35 that he was warned by SDS managers that he could be tempted by quote flesh pots end quote
00:52:40 end quote females he stated that he quote kept himself aloof and tried to keep his distance end quote and that there was no talk of sexual relationships with activists in the office on the 16th of March 2015 an
00:53:00 office on the 16th of March 2015 an officer from operation Hearn spoke with h 67 on the phone about a rumor that hm67 had had a relationship with an activist and father a child during his deployment h67 denied the rumor but he did say this
00:53:17 did say this quote I did have a one night stand about a year before I left the field but that was it end quote he later stated that he could not recall the name of the woman he said that he had given her and others a left home after a quote weeklong educational
00:53:32 home after a quote weeklong educational meeting at the University of London end quote and that she asked him in for a drink and he quote ended up staying the night end quote h67 stated that he was
00:53:46 night end quote h67 stated that he was not on duty at the time and that to his knowledge the encounter did not result in
00:53:48 in pregnancy in addition sir the risk assessment records that hn 67 stated that he reported this encounter
00:53:59 that he reported this encounter to detective inspector Mike Barber and that the incident was
00:54:06 recorded So officers from operation Hearn spoke to hn9 cover name Malcolm shearing from whom we'll be hearing tomorrow about hn 67 on the 8th of August
00:54:17 67 on the 8th of August 2018 hn9 disclosed that he had a reasonable supposition that hm67 was in
00:54:29 reasonable supposition that hm67 was in a relationship with someone from hn 67's Target group and that he had fathered her
00:54:34 her child hn1 19 has provided a wh witness statement to the inquiry he states that he encountered h67 by chance during his deployment whilst they were both deployed that is
00:54:45 whilst they were both deployed that is and noticed a woman with a distinctive voice in hn 67's Target group sometime later hn1 19 and h67 went
00:55:05 group sometime later hn1 19 and h67 went to a pub together socially and hm67 told hn9 that he had fathered that woman's child hn9 later saw the woman with a small
00:55:18 small baby the two officers spoke again during which conversation hn 67 gave hn9 the impression that he had fathered that same
00:55:30 same child hn1 19 recalls that hn 83 made a comment that seemed to confirm he was aware that hm67 had fathered a child whilst
00:55:37 whilst deployed hn9 assumed it was known to more than just the three of them sir
00:55:43 them sir h83 who has real name and cover name anonymity has provided a witness statement to the inquiry in which he denies any knowledge of these
00:55:54 denies any knowledge of these matters he states that he would see h67 at the bi-weekly meeting when their deployments overlapped and that they would sometimes meet socially and I quote I would not describe our
00:56:05 quote I would not describe our relationship as close but we were friends end quote h83 states that the topic of sexual relationships never came up between them and that if he had become
00:56:20 between them and that if he had become privy to such information he would have quote had a quiet word with management end
00:56:21 end quote h83 states that he believes he became aware through through the inquiry risk assessment process about the allegation that h67 had a sexual
00:56:34 allegation that h67 had a sexual relationship whil deployed but he knew nothing about h67 fathering a child h83 was still in contact with h67 as of November 2018 1883 adds that he was shocked to
00:56:50 2018 1883 adds that he was shocked to read in the Press about Bob Lambert who we know otherwise as hn10 having fathered a child and is quote positive end quote that those Revelations about Bob lumbert would have triggered a
00:57:04 Bob lumbert would have triggered a memory about h67 if he had ever been aware of the
00:57:12 allegation in 2002 sir h167 appeared in the true spies documentary using the pseudonym Richard in which he discussed
00:57:24 pseudonym Richard in which he discussed a product contamination threat to lucas8 said to have been reported by John dyes also known as hn5 h67 was John D's manager in the SDS at the time when the Lucas side threat was reported
00:57:35 reported on h67 has stated that he became aware that John dyes was quote involved in a relationship end quote with Helen steel before he returned to the SDS as a
00:57:50 before he returned to the SDS as a manager and that he approached John D John dines to voice concern however h67 did not take the matter any further further with police management owing to his close friendship with Mr
00:58:04 with Mr dimes so that concludes the summary of H 67's evidence thank you we are now going to hear the live evidence of Michael chant
00:58:40 you just repeat after me okay I do solemnly sincerely and truly I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence
00:58:54 evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth the whole truth and nothing but the
00:58:59 but the truth a thank you
00:59:09 yes good morning sir good morning Mr chant good morning could we start by having your full name please my full name is Michael Harold
00:59:18 Harold chant my name is afab Jones and I'm going to be asking you some questions on behalf of council to the inquiry can I ask that that's document ucpi
00:59:34 ucpi 36660 is brought up on the screen sir that's A1 of your
00:59:42 bundle Mr chant is it correct that you provided the inquiry with a witness statement dated the 19th of January 2024 that's correct can we move to page 56 of that document
01:00:06 thank you can you confirm that that is your signature Mr chant yes I can confirm that and is this statement true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief it is thank you Mr chant all of your witness statement is now in evidence and will be considered by the
01:00:18 evidence and will be considered by the chair alongside the oral evidence that you give today okay Mr chant is it correct that you are currently the general secretary of the
01:00:33 currently the general secretary of the Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain Marxist leninist that's correct if you don't mind I'm going to refer to the group as the rcpb ml throughout these questions good yeah when did you become the general secretary well actually uh there's a
01:00:53 secretary well actually uh there's a question of leadership of the party um we haven't always had a general secretary um and and from our third Congress of the party which was in
01:01:06 which was in 1999 I increasingly took up leadership duties so uh it was formly Consolidated that I should be General
01:01:15 General Secretary
01:01:24 Secretary um in uh a subsequent period um and it's actually
01:01:26 actually in the record uh when that
01:01:41 in the record uh when that was um my recollection is that it was around um be 2005 something like that thank you would it be fair to say that you became involved in the politics of the RC pbml as a young graduate who'd moved
01:01:56 RC pbml as a young graduate who'd moved to London I think as a composer to meet and work with a man named Cornelius yes that's right and I think it was through Mr K's experimental music class at moley
01:02:07 experimental music class at moley College in the late 60s and early 70s that a group called the scratch Orchestra was
01:02:22 Orchestra was formed yes uh this the scratch Orchestra um is uh famous or inFAMOUS for its um its experimental music it it was groundbreaking for its time and we you a member of the scratch Orchestra yes uh anyone who turned up was a
01:02:35 was a member and is it right that the scratch Orchestra joined with the English communist movement Marxist leninist around
01:02:46 around 1971 uh not strictly um there was no joining of the two organizations um members of the scratch Orchestra
01:02:58 um members of the scratch Orchestra became aware of of um English communist movement Marxist leninist
01:03:01 leninist um through his experience of uh um I mean it it it it's covered I
01:03:23 uh um I mean it it it it's covered I think but it it it had a um a tour of uh it it was based on taking music to Village Halls uh and it took his music to the
01:03:34 Halls uh and it took his music to the Northeast supported by uh funding from Arts Council of England as it was then and
01:03:43 and uh
01:03:53 uh uh this coincided with certain Orchestra members having come into contact with the English communist movement so there's no formal joining it's it's just that
01:04:01 that uh quite a large proportion of the scratch Orchestra uh became interested in the communist movement English communist movement Marxist leninist and that
01:04:15 leninist and that um uh in fact the majority of the active scratch Orchestra musicians um became very
01:04:28 Orchestra musicians um became very political at that time we're talking about
01:04:31 about um uh
01:04:36 um uh 1971 and do you include yourself as one of those members who became um very political at that time yes uh I I I believe I was quite slow in uh gravitating towards the
01:04:50 gravitating towards the politics um but once once I had done then u i remained pretty stalwart
01:05:02 you have set out in your witness statement at section one a very clear um chronology and explanation of your um movement into the English communist um league but can I ask firstly is it
01:05:16 league but can I ask firstly is it correct that you became involved in the Communist Party of England Marxist leninist in
01:05:27 1973 uh yes as as um as quite an activist in 73 in 72 uh I think i' had attended meetings and so on and become
01:05:40 so on and become interested um there was the activities which I think I mentioned of the progressive intellectuals study group um which was a really exciting uh discussion group and so it
01:05:54 exciting uh discussion group and so it was 1973 and I think when I became what
01:06:06 was 1973 and I think when I became what you call an activist of the party and at that time that group was called the Communist Party of England Marxist leninist is it correct that in 1979 the group that we refer to today the Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain Marxist leninist came into
01:06:21 Britain Marxist leninist came into existence yes it was uh we say that RCP PML was founded in 1979 it was was um like a continuation of uh Communist Party of
01:06:32 continuation of uh Communist Party of England Marxist leninist so there was a a conference on March 16th 1979 in which RCP B was
01:06:49 founded at the risk of oversimplifying the the politics and the history of it is it correct that when you were involved in the Communist Party of England Marxist leninist in 73 the party um was based on maidong thoughts
01:07:01 um was based on maidong thoughts alongside Marxist Marxist leninism and that you would have been considered maoists to those engaged in the movement at that time yes I mean that
01:07:14 at that time yes I mean that that that is quite accurate assessment um we we
01:07:20 um we we did like the way the way you put it that it was based on Ma Jong thought
01:07:32 it was based on Ma Jong thought alongside Marxism leninism is is the way we would characterize it um I mean it's it's worth noting that I think that uh like the activities of of the party were not really to go around saying
01:07:45 were not really to go around saying everyone should follow maidong thought it was taking up issues such as the uh um National Liberation struggle in
01:07:58 um National Liberation struggle in Ireland um very afro Asian uh solidarity campaigns and so on yeah thank you when
01:08:12 campaigns and so on yeah thank you when uh the the party became the RCP BML was there a change in um the the thought were you still following the maong thought with Marx's lism or was there a change in
01:08:22 change in that uh it dates to before then actually um I I recall from uh some of the um disclosures I think I I believe there's one on um
01:08:35 there's one on um subversion um which referred to uh Marxism
01:08:52 uh Marxism leninism um the groups formerly known as maist were now known as Marxist leninist
01:08:53 leninist um and
01:08:58 um and I don't think that's quite accurate in the sense
01:09:00 the sense that
01:09:10 um it kind of suggests there there was that continuity whereas we
01:09:22 whereas we were um we were kind of aware of some of the issues of uh maong thought which didn't
01:09:24 didn't really um um coincide with our our thinking and uh um how we saw Marxism
01:09:39 thinking and uh um how we saw Marxism leninism so so that that is you could say dating from 1978 so it's before the uh founding of RCP
01:09:47 RCP BML thank you that's helpful um can we bring up the document again ucpi 36660 it's your statement Mr chant and can we go to paragraph
01:10:14 2.14 sorry should have got a page reference for you
01:10:29 there you so paragraph 2.14 Mr chance I'll just read you describe here um I think the aims of the RC pbml at its formation the rcpb ml saw its aims as
01:10:41 formation the rcpb ml saw its aims as building an organization that would be for and part of the working class and oppressed people's movement for revolutionary change and the Socialist transformation of society the RCP pbml had a membership
01:10:53 society the RCP pbml had a membership and form consistent with the leninist principles of a party of a new type could you just explain for us what that last sentence meant in terms of what the
01:11:04 last sentence meant in terms of what the membership and form of the rcpb ml would look like yes at at that time um I mean first of all I think one has has to
01:11:15 has to remember
01:11:16 remember that
01:11:28 that um this this was a a period when um I mean there was a lot of uh political
01:11:30 political activity um when one could say that uh the Revolutionary movement was kind of
01:11:38 of recognized um
01:11:43 um and so the old the old parties which have changed over time it has to be said uh in in terms of how
01:11:59 uh in in terms of how they engage with with their membership and whether membership decides everything so it
01:12:07 so it was it was important to us to reaffirm that it was what what Lenin had said
01:12:18 that it was what what Lenin had said that uh in in this imp this overall era of um what I we we would say was the the era of imperialism and the proletarian Revolution that
01:12:37 Revolution that uh a genuine Marxist Lenin's party as as we insisted on at the time should follow that um those those
01:12:48 should follow that um those those leninist principles so that means that it's uh a a party um which had discipline which had uh the involvement of its
01:13:04 which had uh the involvement of its membership in decision making which was based
01:13:05 based on Democratic centralism and so on um so I think that that that kind of covers what what we
01:13:26 covers what what we were um concerned with um when found you know at the founding Conference of RCP ppml thank you very much can we now please bring up document number
01:13:34 number MPS
01:13:37 MPS 074
01:13:39 074 7710 and so this is at um A2 of the hn9
01:13:57 bundle the RC pbml was infiltrated and reported on by undercover officer nominal
01:13:58 nominal hn9 cover Nam Malcolm shearing do you remember Malcolm shearing Mr chant yes I do
01:14:08 do yes can you tell us what sort of role if any did he have in the rcpb ml uh he he became quite an
01:14:20 ml uh he he became quite an activist um mainly in South London uh and his reports uh
01:14:31 reports uh um tend to um tend to focus on South London
01:14:34 London um one can say unduly in the sense of the the party was a national party it was particularly active in East London as well for
01:14:48 as well for example uh so he was very active in in South
01:14:49 South London he
01:14:51 London he he he
01:14:53 he he mentions Tom Gray as uh I believe he uses the term his his mentor
01:15:02 mentor so
01:15:14 so uh he um he he you know he he was a prot in that sense of of Tom Graham he he he joined the work of mainly um selling the paper workers weekly U particularly as it was South London at brixon
01:15:25 London at brixon tube uh every week um possibly um with there was also a program of Pub selling he he might have been involved
01:15:47 selling he he might have been involved in that but I I can't be sure about that uh certainly he he would sell the paper at brickson tube along with Tom Tom Gram
01:15:49 Gram um but
01:15:52 um but he he
01:16:02 he he my recollection is that he didn't really join in the political discussion uh an awful
01:16:03 awful lot uh he he was regarded as quite useful in the sense that he had
01:16:17 sense that he had a uh a vehicle and um I I think he mentions at some point that in effect he it's like he became Tom GR 's driver Tom Graham was one one
01:16:31 Tom GR 's driver Tom Graham was one one of the older commers in in in the party at that time um but he he was I mean I can speak some more about Tom graah because he it comes up in in h
01:16:43 up in in h 19's witness statement also perhaps you could just tell us what was Tom Graham's role within the RCP BML uh he he was he was very much just
01:16:58 BML uh he he was he was very much just an an activist and very active in South London he his background uh was that he was born in Edinburgh in 1918 um as
01:17:24 1918 um as a a young teenager he he'd um found his way to London um he he tried to go to Spain in 1936 to participate in the uh International Brigade struggle against uh francoism and so on
01:17:36 and so on um but his trade was as a building worker but at heart he was also very
01:17:49 worker but at heart he was also very much a an author and um a lot of his activities in in the party uh were along those lines um um he he would
01:18:03 he would um uh he wrote a number of plays and some of the activists of the party participated in them uh at the time we're talking about
01:18:15 we're talking about um I mean it's quite interesting that um in 1978 I think it was when there was um a byelection Lamberth lamber
01:18:32 was um a byelection Lamberth lamber Central byelection I think and one of our coms stood on a democratic platform his uh Tom Graham's
01:18:39 Graham's um
01:18:42 um address uh was used as the uh election head headquarters I see um so be fair to say he was he was a very active in the
01:18:55 say he was he was a very active in the group indeed and therefore H 19 Malcolm shearing seemed to spend a lot of time with him yes that's correct yeah um want to take you to part of U Malcolm
01:19:07 to take you to part of U Malcolm sharing's statement where he makes some comments about the reasons for his deployment into the RC pbml um can I ask that we go to paragraph 57 which is at page 22
01:19:30 thank you so it's actually sort of the second half of that paragraph I'll read out the section um he's talking about uh why he had decided to Target the rcpb ml he says the RCP BML was small and
01:19:46 ml he says the RCP BML was small and very extreme used petrol bombs and had taken up Allegiance with Albania without getting involved in political dis discussion it seemed to be a very extreme organization ation in
01:20:00 a very extreme organization ation in their behavior if taken seriously their plans for how to run British Society were very
01:20:05 were very extreme um firstly Mr chant what do you say to the the allegation I guess in this um part of hn9 statements that the RC pbml had used petrol
01:20:20 RC pbml had used petrol bombs it's uh not true and um there there was um there there are some other parts of of his statement as well which kind of indicate
01:20:32 indicate that um Tom Graham has suggested that the party had used uh petrol bombs in in the
01:20:40 the past
01:20:42 past um he doesn't give
01:20:53 um he doesn't give any any evidence for this apart from the hearsay in fact I I as I recall he says that um
01:21:02 that um he had no idea what this the context of this and what this referred to um our
01:21:09 um our our view has always been that uh these these kind of
01:21:17 um could almost call them terrorist uh activities uh this kind of violence um wasn't we wouldn't engage it wasn't
01:21:26 wasn't appropriate
01:21:37 um and uh I I think it might be said that um like a couple of conversations uh with with Tom Graham that he mentions uh uh in in the P after
01:21:51 that he mentions uh uh in in the P after activities doesn't amount to evidence uh for that um what about the second suggestion that the party had taken up Allegiance with Albania I mean it's
01:22:03 Allegiance with Albania I mean it's correct I think is it that the party had aligned itself with Albania and are you able to briefly explain why yes certainly um first of all I I would say that
01:22:14 that um it's not really uh a Allegiance we're we're talking about in the sense that
01:22:41 um we'd always as a party decided on our own path yes um there was uh as as part of our considerations you could say about
01:22:42 about uh
01:22:44 uh um fraternal organization fraternal
01:22:55 um fraternal organization fraternal relations with uh other other parties other other uh countries and so on that
01:23:06 um we'd found found that well first of all this this was our our what we would call proletarian internation internationalism um to say that we
01:23:17 internationalism um to say that we fought on this same France for uh a a new world for um as we would have said then for socialism communism um in
01:23:35 communism um in 1978 I believe it was uh and hoder who was leader of the party of Labor of Albania wrote a book uh which was very influential called imperialism and the revolution
01:23:50 revolution um which took issue with certain um
01:23:52 um uh concept of of what what was known as
01:24:04 uh concept of of what what was known as maoism or maiton thought or the stand of the Communist Party of China um but it wasn't that if you understand what I'm saying it wasn't that we then said oh we are going
01:24:17 going to uh have our Allegiance changed from China to to Albania Allegiance isn't isn't the word we would have used understand does that explain it yes thank you Mr
01:24:34 does that explain it yes thank you Mr jant can we move please to paragraph 65 which is at page
01:24:48 24 bit further up sorry it's not page that's it page
01:24:55 25 just briefly read this bit the justification for deploying into the rcpb ml became clear to me initially as a result of my research into the group within special Branch records although small in numbers the special Branch
01:25:06 small in numbers the special Branch records indicated a track record of conspicuous violence on the streets and political extremism now Mr chant you've
01:25:17 political extremism now Mr chant you've already explained that the um suggestion in this statement that the RC pbml had used petrol bombs is untrue um what do you say to this suggestion that that there was a track record of conspicuous violence on the
01:25:28 violence on the streets well once again I I think what this is referring to was our stand
01:25:38 stand on the promotion of uh neonazi type
01:25:57 on the promotion of uh neonazi type organizations and it was our stand that um there there was like a campaign to try and make such parties like the national
01:25:58 national front uh into respect uh legitimate uh political parties
01:26:15 legitimate uh political parties and um I think as I I mentioned in the in the witness statement um I mean
01:26:18 um I mean the it it
01:26:27 was 35 five years I I think we said after the defeat of um the
01:26:39 after the defeat of um the nais and the Japanese militarist the Axis powers in World War II and
01:26:41 II and um I mean it's interesting that one could say looking at that history leading up to
01:26:57 history leading up to the um formation and promotion of of the uh National front and similar organizations that um this issue of e
01:27:09 um this issue of e extremes had had been really promoted as a
01:27:17 a um as a way of looking at the world that there was see we I think we take issue with the fact that there's an extreme left and an extreme right
01:27:27 right uh as the motive for our existence um or motive for uh opposing the national front it's it's much
01:27:44 front it's it's much more what was happening in society uh in the world and and particularly in politics in Britain at that time um so so oh yeah so the the question of extremism um and violence on the
01:28:02 extremism um and violence on the streets yes we we took a stand that Nazis have no right to organize
01:28:04 organize um but the the battles that took place
01:28:18 um but the the battles that took place um were like if I mean going back to an earlier time but 1974 when Red Line Square took place uh when the antifas nist movement in general took a a stand that
01:28:34 general took a a stand that uh the national front should not be allowed to meet in Conway Hall
01:28:39 Hall this this was placing ourselves as a block to to them doing so and in
01:28:54 block to to them doing so and in confrontations yes I mean in in Red Line Square uh it was student Kevin gatley that that was that was killed um and I I I think it's fairly
01:29:08 um and I I I think it's fairly recognized it was by police trunions so I think that's in in terms of violence on the streets that that is what is being referred to and it but it it it wasn't like unlike some of the other
01:29:23 wasn't like unlike some of the other organizations uh on on the left as they were called just confrontation with the so-called extreme right the far right for its own
01:29:36 for its own sake hope that makes it clear yes thank you the last thing I want to look at this statement is just a bit further
01:29:50 this statement is just a bit further down in this paragraph um hn 19 says the following the rcpb mml's motivation was subversive and that they wanted to overthrow parliamentary democracy establish a dictatorship of the proletariat and so establish a one par party State he does go on in that paragraph to say that towards the end of his deployment it was his view that the RC pbml were diminishing and therefore
01:30:02 RC pbml were diminishing and therefore his deployment into the group wasn't the best use of resource but just two things um would you agree with the characterization that the RC pbml wanted to overthrow parliamentary
01:30:18 to overthrow parliamentary democracy well I think I say in the Whitmer statement the um it's like parliamentary democracy is kind of overthrown itself
01:30:28 itself um like going back to the the sort of leninist conception that we talked about earlier
01:30:45 um I mean it's it's useful kind of to bring that up to date if if if you like when
01:30:47 when um there is a sense that the the electorate the people as a whole
01:30:57 whole kind of disempowered from decision making from the influence on the political life of the country and so on uh by the very fact of this this parliamentary
01:31:09 parliamentary democracy and um it's not a sort of New Concept uh one
01:31:23 um it's not a sort of New Concept uh one can dated back to the English Civil Wars um the establishment of the Common Wealth under under cronwell the debates
01:31:34 Wealth under under cronwell the debates at uh So-Cal party debates on the nature of
01:31:35 of democracy
01:31:37 democracy um so it's it's not some peculiar um conception of RCP BML
01:31:48 BML um I
01:31:51 um I the the
01:31:55 the the the document I'm I'm not sure like the authorization of the document who it's author is I mean uh on
01:32:07 author is I mean uh on subversion it it it kind of um hn1 19's Testament is is in line with that kind of definition I I think of
01:32:22 of definition I I think of subversion um dictatorship of the proletariat uh yes I mean
01:32:38 proletariat uh yes I mean we at it's of its time also in in in um like the late 1970s the the early 1980s that we would um keep emphasizing this necessity for uh capitalism to be transformed into
01:32:52 uh capitalism to be transformed into socialism and and you have dictation of the proletariat we we wouldn't
01:33:03 um describe that uh process uh that accomplishment in in in the same way these days um I mean partly because
01:33:22 because the the the issue of dictatorship um has other connotations you know especially after
01:33:27 after after the 1930s with Hitler coming to power and so on um and the issue of a one party State um this is H1 19's
01:33:40 um this is H1 19's interpretation um we we never talked about a one- party State um in
01:33:53 State um in fact uh our position became elaborated uh
01:33:55 uh um um in in what we term is the um guiding principle of our our
01:34:07 the um guiding principle of our our party today which is that of working for Democratic renewal in other words um it's it's a stand that it's not
01:34:23 um it's it's a stand that it's not parties that should come to power as it is in under parliamentary democracy it is
01:34:25 is um that people should should be empowered um to have U political control and such divisions as as
01:34:37 and such divisions as as exist can can be overcome if if there are new forms um developed in in order
01:34:50 are new forms um developed in in order to um empower the people and for them to speak in their own name thank you Mr chant that's very helpful we move on to a new document can we please bring up ucpi
01:35:00 17236 so this is at tab
01:35:24 B5 this is an intelligence report dated the 4th of March 1982 which reports on the first annual conference of the campaign for diplomatic relations with
01:35:41 diplomatic relations with Albania I want to look um specifically at paragraph three I'm afraid I will read it I will read it out the conference was chaired by daff wiggley Member of Parliament and president of plyed cry his brief introduction
01:35:52 plyed cry his brief introduction including apologies for absence from William Wilson MP was followed by a speech from Professor privacy chairman of cdra who outlined the current situation in which the United Kingdom and Albania do not have diplomatic
01:36:05 and Albania do not have diplomatic relations with each other the gist of the problem is that following an incident in a Minefield in Albanian Coastal water during which ships of the royal Navy suffered casualties and damage the bank of England retains to this day a quantity Al Albanian gold
01:36:16 this day a quantity Al Albanian gold seized by the Allies for safekeeping during World War II this unremarkable speech was followed by a similar effort from Steve CER Secretary of CD who laid more emphasis on the activities of The
01:36:30 more emphasis on the activities of The Campaign which had amounted to a small number of demonstrations and much writing of letters to newspapers finally privacy treasur of cdra delivered what was little more than his personal vote of confidence for the efforts of the
01:36:41 of confidence for the efforts of the campaign can we now move to paragraph
01:36:51 five this paragraph reads that the stated aims of the cdra are aens ly straightforward and stem from legitimate commercial and cultural aspirations however it is of interest that Steven cuer is identical with Michael chant
01:37:03 cuer is identical with Michael chant South London Regional Secretary of the
01:37:11 South London Regional Secretary of the Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain Marxist leninist and that approximately half of the persons remaining for the business part of the conference were current members of the party or at least regular supporters of its meetings in addition to chant Bland two names redacted for privacy um another and Tom
01:37:29 Graham is it correct that Steven cuer was an an alias used by you it's correct yes it was it was like my Persona within the
01:37:37 the um the it was overall it was known as the Albanian Society um the the cdra was a kind of campaign within the
01:37:57 a kind of campaign within the um um activities of the Albanian societ was it common for those within the RC pbml to adopt an alias or a Persona um it was quite common at that
01:38:14 Persona um it was quite common at that time yes um can you tell us why yes we it was a question of security uh concerns
01:38:23 um in um in adopting what we what known as party
01:38:24 as party names
01:38:35 um we had had the conception of uh guarding our identities from the state and um and not from uh the people you know we were working with uh
01:38:49 people you know we were working with uh politically uh and one of the reasons it kind
01:38:50 kind of faded away was
01:39:04 we really realized that um this the state would know our identities anyway as as has been proved after all this time um and it's it is quite interesting that um
01:39:13 that um our suspicions at that time are are sort of corroborated after all this uh period which is quite interesting but anyway and and that
01:39:27 and and that also the fact that generally speaking [Music]
01:39:32 [Music] the uh the activist The Ordinary People we were working with
01:39:40 with um simply knew our our party names are aliases so it it didn't really uh achieve its objective
01:39:52 really uh achieve its objective nevertheless you know they I'm not aware of
01:39:58 of kind of anyone else that um had had such a um developed
01:40:10 developed um Alter Ego if you like a profile as myself in the Albanian Society
01:40:14 um and I mean that that that was the um
01:40:36 it wasn't it wasn't the the fact that I was trying to conceal my um Allegiance or my my involvement with RCP BML in fact that that was known um it's developed over time that uh I I would become very active within the Albanian Society while we're on the subject
01:40:54 Society while we're on the subject um perhaps I could mention also Al uh Tom
01:41:00 Tom Graham who who was widely known as John mahog
01:41:02 mahog um
01:41:04 um and actually H9 never mentions that name but he um Tom was widely known as John
01:41:18 but he um Tom was widely known as John mahog because that was his uh pen name it was a n Plum n plume and um
01:41:30 uh he he I I can't remember what I mentioned but anyway he he he retired as a building worker in 1955 actually to devote
01:41:38 devote himself um to to writing and it was roughly the same time as he came into contact with the party so everyone knew him as uh John mahog I see so it was
01:41:53 him as uh John mahog I see so it was there were other members of the party who also used party names or alter alternative personas in their work with the party yes yes Mr chance I want to ask you now a bit more about the organization of the
01:42:05 bit more about the organization of the RC pbml I'm I'm going to ask to bring up your witness statement again that's ucpi 36660 sah A1 and go um please to page
01:42:24 38 paragraph 12.6 Point uh ran numeral
01:42:47 1 oh yes so it's um the 12.6 Roman numeral the ran numeral one that comes after 12.6 if that makes sense uh begins this is what you've written Mr chant RC pbml is a democratic centralist
01:43:02 pbml is a democratic centralist organization I think you you mentioned that at the start of your evidence um Democratic centralism is an organizational method applied by the Bolsheviks in a nutshell it effectively means democracy in discussion centralism in action within a strategy of building
01:43:18 in action within a strategy of building a campaign and the party there cannot be Democratic centralism without dealing with the line of the party
01:43:22 party um and at paragraph Roman numeral 2 put simply as a party we discuss campaigns strategy and tactics and then after the maximum discussion a decision is made and the members follow that decision and campaign accordingly Democratic centralism ensures the unity of the
01:43:38 centralism ensures the unity of the party and the full participation of its members um can we now bring up a separate document uh you are in MPS 0729
01:43:48 0729 245 which sir is at tab b32
01:44:18 um and we just scroll down to yeah this is a intelligence report dated the 17th of August 1982 and it's described as a review of some aspects of the rcpb ml um I want to go to paragraph three
01:44:33 go to paragraph three specifically well three and then I will move
01:44:35 move on the RCP bml's recently published draft Constitution demonstrates that in order to achieve the the above aim it's attempted to model itself from overall
01:44:48 attempted to model itself from overall strategy to Everyday terminology on the Russian bolic party to the impartial Observer any comparison between the Russia of 1917 and present day Britain may appear abur but whatever the incongruities the RC pbml recognizes essential similarities paragraph 4 One
01:45:01 essential similarities paragraph 4 One such perceived similarity is the belief in the ability of a small highly disciplined organization faced with the reality or the prospect of illegality to act decisively at the right time to change the course of a Nation faint
01:45:14 change the course of a Nation faint Hearts Who Remain unconvinced by the Russian example are referred to the original 15 Albanian Eagles who developed into the early 200 strong nucleus of the Communist Party of
01:45:26 nucleus of the Communist Party of Albania compared with those 200 the RC pbml is said to be quite large and we just go to paragraph five from their total conviction of the correctness of the historical analysis and from the anticipated persecution by the existing capitalist state it naturally follows that comrades feel vulnerable and are
01:45:38 that comrades feel vulnerable and are highly security conscious in practice their fears are translated into a strict need to know policy which conveniently complements the Prest principles of
01:45:49 complements the Prest principles of democratic centralism wherein central control all but totally excludes any element of genuine democ y thus it is considered unnecessary and undesirable for the public supporters and even the
01:46:03 for the public supporters and even the mass of ordinary party members to know the identities of leading comrades or particular details of the party Machinery meetings which are open to the public seldom attract participants from Beyond The Familiar circle of members
01:46:17 Beyond The Familiar circle of members supporters and contacts but nevertheless it is understood that there are certain comrades who to avoid the risk of exposure seldom if ever attend such meetings
01:46:23 meetings um Mr chant just that assertion at paragraph five that it is considered unnecessary and undesirable for the public supporters or ordinary party members to know the identities of
01:46:37 members to know the identities of Leaning comrades orl particular details of the party machinery would you say that's accurate not really um as as I've sort of mentioned in
01:46:55 um as as I've sort of mentioned in connection with party names um it was never the any intention to keep our identity
01:47:01 identity from supporters and and as it says the massive ordinary party members uh the the these were security concerns and um if I
01:47:10 if I may comment on on that uh those previous statements in in in in the witness
01:47:23 the witness statement um about Democratic Central ISM
01:47:32 um I mean it it the tone is kind of meant to be quite conversational in in in that W witness
01:47:43 conversational in in in that W witness statement um in particular uh my witness statement often talks about campaigns
01:47:45 campaigns um I I think that um like just focused as it were on on on those two extracts on Democratic
01:48:00 on on those two extracts on Democratic centralism it's not entirely appropriate to talk about um um campaigns as such um as I mean whe whe whether or not
01:48:18 as I mean whe whe whether or not um you know one one would agree with our party or not it it had a a vision and still has a vision for um a different type of World um
01:48:28 um [Music]
01:48:29 [Music] so campaigns yes
01:48:46 so campaigns yes but it's not that we we ever stood aside as it were from the people and thought well this is a campaign we should be involved in uh like in in [Music]
01:48:48 [Music] 1981 when we held the conference Against Racism fascism ISM in uh in Conway Halls as it happens
01:49:05 as it happens um the hall was was full um the the fact is
01:49:06 is that um we were part of the people's movement Against Racism and Fascism and and the fact that so many people would
01:49:19 and the fact that so many people would come to a a conference that uh the party had organized I I I think proves that that could could I also just mention one
01:49:33 that could could I also just mention one other thing while I remember um which is on this question of uh violence or terrorism
01:49:34 terrorism or
01:49:39 or um oh I I've just remembered something else it which I meant to say in connection with with uh Tom Graham if if I may which is that um I think I began to talk about in
01:49:51 to talk about in 1978 um uh Lamberth by elction yes where where we used Tom Graham's
01:50:08 used Tom Graham's address um as the the base for the party in fact in the middle of that campaign there was a
01:50:13 a um a fire precisely at that that address um well it wasn't just uh Tom that had to be uh rehoused there were a
01:50:32 that had to be uh rehoused there were a number of people living in in that house so it was very dangerous um and um our
01:50:43 and um our supposition was always that it was uh um an act of the neo- Nazis to attack our party
01:50:49 party um the other connected which is why I
01:51:00 um the other connected which is why I remembered it the other connect actually to point about to the campaigns Against Racism um was that uh we were part of the
01:51:05 the ordinary uh resistance like it's it's really important that uh the the people are are very are only too willing to resist our our our slogan was self-defense is
01:51:21 our our our slogan was self-defense is the only way there were many people in East London uh um uh which is dealt with in an earlier trch but
01:51:35 trch but um that were were were were part of of this movement uh of self-defense and I I noticed
01:51:46 self-defense and I I noticed in looking through hn1 19's submissions that
01:51:49 that he I think is that that he um includes a publication of uh the East London People's
01:52:01 People's Front which specifically has an article against uh terrorism and terrorist activities uh specifically and there
01:52:15 activities uh specifically and there there were organizations suggested that they should set up vigilante groups against
01:52:20 against um um racist who are conducting racist attacks um we never agreed with this we always said that it's the people who who need to be mobilized thank
01:52:31 mobilized thank you um and just back to um this document Mr Chan from your helpful explanation would it be fair to
01:52:43 helpful explanation would it be fair to say that um you often held meetings like for example the conference you just referred to at comway Hall um which were open to the public and attracted many members of the public not just members of the party that's correct I
01:53:06 of the party that's correct I mean not just um meetings like that but um and hn9 refers to this Sports and cultural Festival in in the sports events of which were held in in comry where where many thousands of people participated and there were
01:53:21 participated and there were local uh Sports and cultural festivals also we have um a a
01:53:29 um a a big cultural side of of the festival in uh s panus Town Hall yes I think we I will ask you some questions about that later actually we will come on to that um just continuing with this um
01:53:45 briefly I read earlier paragraph four where hn9
01:53:48 where hn9 um draws a what he says there's a s similarity between the rcpb and the Russian bolic party the belief of a ability of a small highly disciplined organization faced with the reality or
01:54:01 organization faced with the reality or Prospect of illegality to act decisively at the right time to change the course of the nation would you agree that that is a correct characterization of of the RC pbml
01:54:15 beliefs well I I I think I say somewhere that it's not anyway I'm saying it now
01:54:26 that it's not anyway I'm saying it now that it's not wasn't really a question of uh belief in in that sense um we would say now that uh the October revolution in in
01:54:43 the October revolution in in Russia uh was a a crucial event it it it opened the way for the world's first worker State and so on
01:54:54 worker State and so on um and Lenin said lenon said you know now we perceive to build socialism
01:54:59 socialism um so yes we we took heart from that and also the example of Albania but it it I I I think it's worth saying here also that
01:55:16 um there I'm sure there there's an implication somewhere in in the documents that it it it shows that the party was committed to violence if you like
01:55:27 like um but it's it's it's it's it's it doesn't even really deal with the situation in
01:55:45 really deal with the situation in 1917 so um if we refer to the specific words where it says that the the circumstances where the party may have to act decisively at the right time to change the course of a Nation what what would that decisive action look like are you saying that that def
01:55:56 like are you saying that that def decisive action would not be something
01:56:03 violent well we're looking at the situation of of the party at that time and the the world revolutionary movement at that time
01:56:28 um the leninist position was that uh for U A revolution to occur you you have to have a um a crisis and and the fact that
01:56:29 that the the
01:56:30 the the ruling class the ruling Elite whoever that is at the time couldn't rule in the old
01:56:46 old way so the The Party The Party steps in and in 1917 it was the fact that
01:56:53 um you know Russia was was part of the first world war we with withdrew from from that Slaughter uh after the B Revolution so it's it's that type of
01:57:07 it's it's that type of important political intervention that's that's the crucial aspect you know the with the bul revolution it was the slogan of land peace and bread that that was
01:57:17 was decisive um now we we we wouldn't
01:57:30 decisive um now we we we wouldn't necessarily pose the question I think in the or the answer in the same way um in that
01:57:33 that uh we point out that
01:57:45 uh we point out that the Thee the present um political system is is UN undemocratic in the sense that the people have
01:57:56 the people have no uh no voice of their own in in in running the country um and
01:58:02 and uh I think part of the party acting decisively today we could characterize as formulating this this conception of the necessity for new
01:58:19 conception of the necessity for new forms as I said before we we very much focus on the necessity for Democratic renewal we we don't necessarily say um we have a revolution and establish socialism it's it's the the people's empowerment that is key and I
01:58:34 people's empowerment that is key and I appreciate that that's how you you would explain it today but in the period of time of of this document in the early 1980s would you say it was broadly a similar
01:58:55 idea well as I I say in in the uh witness statement I I believe that you're looking at the prospect of illegality and um like it it it it it was I don't know whether it remains a
01:59:06 was I don't know whether it remains a distinct possibility um I think we give the example of of Chile um in in that um that it it it may be
01:59:19 that it it it may be necessary um you know if the party is declared illegal I mean there are other ways of undermining the party but it
01:59:32 ways of undermining the party but it it's it's inv visiting that situation where actually it's it's not us that declares we're illegal it's it's what happens from the state's point of view thank you Mr chair that's very helpful sir I wonder if now would be a
01:59:47 sir I wonder if now would be a convenient time for a break I think the transcriber definitely needs a break we've um lasted an hour and three quarters and uh we will adjourn for 15 15 minutes okay thank
02:00:20 you
02:17:49 e e
02:19:02 yes thank you Mr chant I'm going to move on to um a different topic now I'm going to refer you to your witness statement again so please can we have um ucpi 36660 and um at page I think 46 paragraph
02:19:13 13.1 yes this page um this page you are talking um you're dealing with h19 Malcolm shearing but I specifically want to look at paragraph graph um four and
02:19:27 five uh just the one above thank you
02:19:37 sorry four and five yes you say the this I recall that we you're talking about the RC pvml organized along with others on the left a counter protest against a oneperson march by Martin Webster a leader of the national front the March was heavily protected by the police it
02:19:49 was heavily protected by the police it was effectively a St by Webster to draw attention to the National front I recall that the undercover officer Malcolm shearing provocatively suggested an
02:20:01 shearing provocatively suggested an attempt to break through police lines to confront National front leader Martin Webster had we followed this strategy we would have been brutally assaulted by the police those who remember think that this was out of character of shearing
02:20:14 this was out of character of shearing and his suggestion was not taken up we considered the suggestion adventurist and it did not have any serious aim to
02:20:25 and it did not have any serious aim to it just very briefly to explore this um do you recall how how many individuals were taking part in this counter protest it's very difficult to be sure
02:20:37 protest it's very difficult to be sure after this period of time I I would say because it was a I believe it was a fairly
02:20:38 fairly local um event so maybe couple of thousand or five or 10,000 that that kind of number and how
02:20:52 10,000 that that kind of number and how about um the members of the RC pbml were you all together and do you remember roughly how many there were no I don't remember
02:20:58 remember um I mean one reason for recalling the occasion at all actually is because of uh Malcolm sharing's
02:21:11 uh Malcolm sharing's remark it's it's about the only
02:21:25 only uh only conversation if you can call it that that I I recall having with him I mean there must have been others over the course of couple of years but um uh it
02:21:33 um uh it it it it has stuck with me um uh of you know being shown that
02:21:49 know being shown that um the reaction that it was you know Pro provocative suggestion is is underlined yeah uh
02:21:51 yeah uh how you do you know how many people heard this was this a conversation that you had one-on-one with Malcolm yeah it was it was just one-on-one yes and you say you considered was this
02:22:02 and you say you considered was this really a serious suggestion do do you think it was really a serious suggestion was it a throwaway comments what was your impression of it
02:22:11 it um well my impression was it
02:22:24 um well my impression was it it it it was meant seriously you know it was meant as uh an option for me to and and whoever was there to take up um wasn't serious in the sense that uh it was
02:22:32 it was obviously um not a feasible practicable uh proposal you say not
02:22:44 practicable uh proposal you say not feasible is it um correct to assume that Martin Webster the leader of the
02:22:56 Martin Webster the leader of the national front was surrounded by a large number of police officers on this occasion sorry yeah that that's that's that's why yes yeah and uh
02:23:03 uh um I mean my my memory may be faulty I I I can't you know I haven't been able necessarily to find a reference to this precise
02:23:12 precise demonstration um my recollection that was in the Kennington area but it that that may be faulty it's just I I have this
02:23:23 I I have this particular um recollection of Malcolm sharing and and I I have I have a kind of um mental
02:23:36 I I have I have a kind of um mental picture of the situation when when he mentioned it with so many police officers around I think it was simply
02:23:50 officers around I think it was simply Martin Webster on his own but I may be wrong on that thank you we move on to um a different document still on the the question of violence as we've discussed
02:24:03 question of violence as we've discussed earlier um you talked about the RC pbml having a slogan um in in reference to
02:24:15 having a slogan um in in reference to anti-fascist um self-defense is the only way um can I turn up document ucpi uh
02:24:18 ucpi uh 18237 which is at tab B22
02:24:38 sir an intelligence report dated the 4th of June 1982 reporting on plans for
02:24:49 of June 1982 reporting on plans for protest activities concerning the visit to Britain of President Ronald rean in June 82 and I just want to look at paragraph
02:25:02 four um I'll just read the paragraph attendances by party members and supporters of recent demonstrations uh the MayDay March Bobby sanss Memorial and the ad hoc committee
02:25:13 sanss Memorial and the ad hoc committee for peace in the Faulkland indicate that a maximum of 40 persons may be expected at any one event since the hey days of the party's Forerunner organization the Communist Party of England Marxist leninist there have been few instances of involvement in overt violence and practices such as assaulting overly
02:25:27 practices such as assaulting overly inquisitive photographers however the official line regarding attacks by fascists which in this context includes
02:25:39 fascists which in this context includes police officers acting as Implements of State oppression is that active indeed preemptive self-defense is obligatory linking of arms and similar passive tactics are considered as no better than running away um now Mr chant you you
02:25:56 running away um now Mr chant you you explained to us earlier about the um the part's position in terms of confronting or blocking um neo-nazis and their position as regards anti-fascist activity and you have told us about the
02:26:11 activity and you have told us about the slogan of self-defense um but perhaps in just specifically with this um document is it correct that um fascists in the context which H 19 puts it included police officers acting as Implements of State oppression um and that preemptive self-defense being obligatory related also to police officers is that correct
02:26:24 also to police officers is that correct I don't recognize any of that really as a party positions I I I don't think I've seen
02:26:32 seen that or been aware of that particular paragraph before um I think it gives a misleading impression of our stand
02:26:44 stand um
02:26:46 um yeah thank you um I want to move move on to the topic of um front organizations I say in quotes I know that the term front is sometimes
02:27:03 the term front is sometimes controversial um can we turn up document ucpi
02:27:06 ucpi 17057 which sir is at B1
02:27:24 this is an intelligence report dated the 5th of January 1981 reporting on a New Year celebration held by the party C can I just interrupt there
02:27:44 there because the the date is obviously not correct it um it should be 1982 I I noticed that before it reports on something that happened in December 1981 you're quite right it says that yes the the event took place on the 31st of
02:28:00 the event took place on the 31st of December 1981 so it follows that indeed the report should be dated the 5th of January 82 yeah thank you
02:28:05 you um it says that this was a celebration around 100 persons present and at paragraph three goes on to list a number of groups which um are associated with
02:28:20 of groups which um are associated with the RC pbml um just briefly paragraph 3 Roman numeral 2 it lists the people's Democratic front um the PDF a broad-based anti-racist anti-fascist organization um at three small three the Preparatory committee for a
02:28:32 Preparatory committee for a revolutionary women's Union of Britain um the paragraph below for the Communist youth Union of
02:28:45 Communist youth Union of Britain and then um at small five other party organizations such as the Trade union revolutionary opposition and the health workers Association paragraph four says the
02:28:56 Association paragraph four says the following it's clear from the above that the party is continuing its policy of launching quasy autonomous organizations to carry out its various projects rather than forming committees or subdivisions within itself by this simple Ploy it
02:29:08 within itself by this simple Ploy it hopes to minimize the risk of exposing its internal structure whilst attracting significant numbers of useful helpers who may not necessarily be potential party members but whose suitability may
02:29:26 party members but whose suitability may be considered at leure and at a distance inevitably most active comrades combine party membership with participation in such organizations for example for example Michael chance Alias Steve is South London Regional Secretary of the party Secretary of the Albanian society and a member of the PDF uh a name
02:29:40 and a member of the PDF uh a name redactor for privacy alas privacy is a spokesman for the tur and the hwa and the current record holder appears to be privacy alas privacy and privacy whose activities include the party the
02:29:54 activities include the party the pressive culture Association people's Democratic front the health workers Association and the Revolutionary women's Union of Britain um I am going to uh deal with some of these organizations um shortly but in general would you say it's
02:30:05 but in general would you say it's accurate to describe these organizations as quasi autonomous of the RC pbml well it's not a a term I think we we ourselves would use
02:30:20 use um as I think I make make clear uh somewhere
02:30:21 somewhere that
02:30:27 that these were Mass organizations of the party in the sense they represented uh various fronts of work and in that sense uh they were United
02:30:39 were United fronts um or mass fronts and um so it's it's not that
02:30:52 that um you know they they they were sort of underhand channels for recruitment of the party I think that's the first thing to be
02:30:57 to be said um so qu autonomous um is a strange way of putting it
02:31:08 um is a strange way of putting it certainly the it's correct to say that um they were in inspired and initiated by the
02:31:20 by the party and uh RCP M conr were were very active in them um but they they had their program um
02:31:31 um and it's it's it's fair to say I think
02:31:45 and it's it's it's fair to say I think that because of of the death of two of our uh leading comrades 1981 and 1982 respectively and the fact that uh the 1980s were a a period where the world was going
02:31:57 a a period where the world was going through a change which everyone can see now you know with the collapse of the Soviet Union and so on um these organizations didn't continue in in
02:32:10 continue in in in you know in in the form of whatever quasi autonomous organizations um which doesn't mean to say that the party stopped organizing on on these fronts [Music]
02:32:22 [Music] um but
02:32:25 um but um it concentrated on its own work on its own activities and so on I see yeah
02:32:36 its own activities and so on I see yeah so what do you say about the suggestion made by h19 that the reason for having the organ organizations was to conceal or minimize risk of exposing the internal structure of the RC
02:32:50 pbml I think this is speculation on his part it doesn't um it isn't borne out by the way these the party and these organizations
02:33:04 the party and these organizations developed thank you uh can we now move on to a document ucpi
02:33:08 ucpi 1683 tab B9
02:33:43 1683 and this is an intelligence report dated the 11th of December 81 um and the report refers to a number of events held over the weekend of the 5th to the 6th of December of
02:33:57 5th to the 6th of December of 1981 um by groups associated with the RC pbml specifically the Preparatory committee for a revolutionary women's Union in Britain the progressive Cultural Association and the people's Democratic front can we look at paragraph five
02:34:13 paragraph five please can I just say at that point that um
02:34:15 um hm9 sort of con continuously refers to the women's organization as the Revolutionary women's Union of Britain it was simply known as women's Union of Britain yeah
02:34:29 known as women's Union of Britain yeah yes I did note that point I was going to ask you just perhaps whilst we're on it um then in that case Mr Chan was it the case that that organization um was always called the women's Union of Britain it never had
02:34:40 women's Union of Britain it never had revolutionary in its name that's correct and was that conscious decision to not use the word revolutionary that you're aware
02:34:44 aware of um it must have been a conscious decision but not from the point of view that
02:34:50 that I don't
02:34:55 I don't think not not to in my experience that someone suggested it and it was O overruled uh was always known as the women's Union of Britain thank you um so paragraph five of this
02:35:12 you um so paragraph five of this document is referring to a concert um which I think was organized by the progressive Cultural Association um the evening concert which was attended by about 150 persons was a great success the most remarkable feature being the wide scope of
02:35:23 feature being the wide scope of entertainment offered the PCA gave a typical esoteric performance of revolutionary songs from Albania but there were also more conventional items from National interest skiffle group John Tilbury a Pianist the Hole in the Wall Gang an Irish folk group and a
02:35:34 Wall Gang an Irish folk group and a Rastafarian poet this drastic departure from purely revolutionary culture was a deliberate attempt by The People's Democratic front to present itself as something other than just the latest RC
02:35:49 something other than just the latest RC pbml front organization and it was clear that party hardliners had through much soul searching convinced themselves of the necessity for such an apparent compromise however it is doubtful whether any or many or indeed any Outsiders were attracted to the concept
02:36:02 Outsiders were attracted to the concept um would you say it is accurate that the choice of performers on that occasion um were chosen deliberately to avoid
02:36:18 were chosen deliberately to avoid presenting the PDF as just a front of the RC pbml no I say that that's not correct actually thear and point
02:36:31 correct actually thear and point referred to was Benjamin Zephaniah who later became very well known um and refused the The Queen's honor
02:36:33 honor um so no the the
02:36:42 these like clear clearly the the party has
02:36:48 party has always attracted um Progressive musicians
02:36:55 musicians and um it was so in those days um it it still is is the case um excuse me um Mr CH these events that were held by the the PCA or the PDF um
02:37:10 were held by the the PCA or the PDF um was there any practical impact of these events did it encourage membership of the RC pbml from your
02:37:15 memory um
02:37:24 that's that's it's a strange way of putting it in that
02:37:36 the it it probably didn't cross our minds that um this was an opportunity to recruit people to R cpml
02:37:48 um so not h19 seems very concerned and and and maybe the um undercover officers were similarly minded in this that there are front organizations
02:38:03 are front organizations which you know seek seek to hide the actual uh force behind them um and it it seems to me to be res from that point of view
02:38:24 and it's yeah it's interesting um the the way he he talks about departure from purely revolutionary culture
02:38:31 culture um as though that that was deliberately going in a different direction uh no the
02:38:35 the the the fact is we we've um the parties always had good
02:38:49 we've um the parties always had good relations with uh Progressive musicians there there was you know you could say revolutionary culture which was specifically um I mean Cornelius cardu himself wrote uh quite a number of
02:39:00 himself wrote uh quite a number of songs which are clearly revolutionary and the founding of the party uh and and
02:39:12 and the founding of the party uh and and so on it's clearly a link between um the party and music um from the very outset but the point I'm making is that these um there were songs which were songs and music which were
02:39:24 music which were um specifically for RCP BML and its circles and then there's the wider
02:39:35 circles and then there's the wider um Progressive musicians and this this was um I I remember the the occasion because
02:39:36 because um I'm pretty sure this was the last concert um December 1981 isn't
02:39:55 the last concert um December 1981 isn't it um before Cornelius cardio was killed on in December 1981 yeah um can we move on to document ucpi
02:39:59 17190 this is at B13 of the
02:40:06 bundle sorry yes ucpi
02:40:16 17190 might be 17190 D1
02:40:28 one yes thank you um this is an intelligence report dated the 24th of February of 1982 which reports on another organization the Trade union revolutionary opposition if we go straight to paragraph three it's quite
02:40:39 straight to paragraph three it's quite difficult to read but I'm going to try
02:40:49 um this organization was formed by consists mostly of members and supporters of the Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain Marxist leninist its most conspicuous member although not necessarily its most influential is I think that name is
02:41:06 influential is I think that name is Stuart Monroe Monroe in typical RC pbml fashion it claims to exist for the interest of the masses but effectively excludes support by uncompromising extremism for this reason it is doubtful
02:41:20 extremism for this reason it is doubtful whether the tur would be able unaided to mobilize sufficient supports to pose a serious public order threat however the tenacity personal plausibility and known History of Violence on the part of
02:41:35 History of Violence on the part of Monroe and other RC pbml tur members indicate a potential capacity for causing disturbances which cannot totally be disregarded um firstly Mr chant were you yourself a member of the T at any point
02:41:51 and I don't don't believe so um
02:42:09 the these these reports from hn9 always come at it from the point of view
02:42:16 of whether these organizations are dominated by the by the party or not and as I try to make clear in the witness report this wasn't the way the
02:42:33 witness report this wasn't the way the the party looked at them they they were organizations um
02:42:37 um which um I mean they were of of their time but it was like it Still Remains a a task for instance to um mobilize
02:42:49 a task for instance to um mobilize uh organized workers in in the trade unions uh to take Progressive stands
02:43:03 unions uh to take Progressive stands um and uh how the trade unions should act effectively I mean the these are pressing problems these are similar problems that trade Union revolutionary opposition was trying to deal with in its day and uh I mean
02:43:17 its day and uh I mean I I take particularly ex exception to to the way it poses this issue of um whether Trade union Revolution opposition um is large or effective
02:43:31 opposition um is large or effective enough to pose a serious public order
02:43:42 enough to pose a serious public order threat um because this this was never any objective of either the party or these Mass organizations and it it it strikes me that
02:44:00 um in indeed the the the question of public order had a I mean I say we've we've never been for uh fermenting public disorder or threatening public
02:44:13 threatening public order in in the way that these undercover police officers pose the question um order public order in in very much in those
02:44:24 those days
02:44:26 days meant um that things you know had had reached a certain stage in history uh you had an
02:44:39 you had an authority which um should be
02:44:42 be uh should be recognized and opposition to this was a
02:44:53 recognized and opposition to this was a threat to public order I I I don't think that was part of our our thinking then or now thank you next document I want to bring up ucpi
02:45:02 ucpi 5992 one sorry ucpi 5992 which is at b37
02:45:33 and this intelligence report dated the 10th of December of 1982 it's another report um of a concert held by the PCA um but I want to take you specifically to paragraph four where hn9 reports the only item of interest during the proceedings was an announcement that earlier in the day a
02:45:49 announcement that earlier in the day a national front meeting in Graves end had been broken up by a contingent of is it hind mazor Lahar the rcpb nl's Asian front organization apologize if I have pronounced that incorrectly but firstly Mr Chan is it right that that
02:46:05 Mr Chan is it right that that organization hin manur laar was an Asian front organization of the RCP vnl would you have described it that way uh no I wouldn't hinda means um Indian workers
02:46:18 wouldn't hinda means um Indian workers associations as I recall um I know there were activists of the party who are active in HML as we used to refer to it in
02:46:26 in M
02:46:33 um would it have the same status as um a group such as the PCA or the PDF in terms of its relation to the
02:46:44 PDF in terms of its relation to the party I I'm not sure that it would be correct to say that um I to my recollection I I don't think it was set
02:46:52 was set up uh in in the same way um on the initiative of RCP BML um certainly as I say
02:47:05 certainly as I say um
02:47:07 um um party comers
02:47:19 um party comers from from Punjab and probably Pakistan were involved in in it um thank
02:47:19 thank you um Mr CH we've talked about several of these uh front organizations or these organizations related the rcpb ml um and you've said that it wasn't something
02:47:30 you've said that it wasn't something that you you would have particularly considered at the time whether or not um you would be able to recruit new members from these fronts that wasn't I think
02:47:42 from these fronts that wasn't I think you said in evidence that wasn't really the purpose of them what do you say to the suggestion that the rcpb ml use these front organizations to conceal the true number of its membership
02:47:53 concealed from whom um I mean what if if it's concealing the numbers from from the the state um I don't think
02:48:13 state um I don't think the these Mass organization would assist if if it was concealing them from from the
02:48:15 the public see I I think
02:48:28 from from my grasp of what hn9 is is saying is that he tries to have it both ways you know when when there's um a meeting he goes to has only a small number of people he says the party is uh in effective organization
02:48:45 party is uh in effective organization it's p its Heyday and so on and so forth when when you have um uh events meetings Cultural Events
02:48:59 uh events meetings Cultural Events sports events where thousands of people turn up he he says well this must be a way of concealing numbers of the party um it's it's not the way of looking at it I mean
02:49:22 we we've always you know whether whether it's uh under understood or not we've always regarded ourselves as
02:49:24 as as
02:49:29 as um at the Forefront of the people's movement you know working working um to move history forward if you like
02:49:42 um to move history forward if you like um and we've never agreed with this idea it's mentioned in in a footnote somewhere in the witness statement of uh the idea that uh this is now the end of History we've we've reached the ultimate kind of
02:49:57 kind of society um so all these activities are are part
02:50:01 are part of you know building the new outlook building the new
02:50:17 building the new organizations um the unity of the people their their determination to um move from the old to to the new um what is could
02:50:23 is could modern Enlightenment movement I mean we we think of Communism as the enlightenment movement
02:50:35 Communism as the enlightenment movement of our day um as as you know as opposed to the Scottish Enlightenment or that period
02:50:37 period um
02:50:43 um and I mean I I speaking personally of course I was always very inspired by these activities and it it it always kind of surprised me that um figures like Malcolm
02:51:00 like Malcolm shuring uh were so cynical and and dismissive of them and thought it correct
02:51:01 correct to
02:51:10 um I mean there there are there are requests from the security service for
02:51:12 for um names of musicians that
02:51:24 um names of musicians that um for instance there is a case with the Alban Society I think it was and asking hn9 to find out who this musician was that uh was interested in Albanian music
02:51:35 that uh was interested in Albanian music there's there's you know the interest on on whether I was moving house and whether that would interfere with um the work of of the sports and cultural festival and so on um I you know I it's difficult
02:51:54 um I you know I it's difficult to empathize with that that mindset and uh it's this one more example which which which shows how in the present
02:52:09 which which shows how in the present um this kind of interference in in the uh political Affairs of of the people should you know should uh should be banished from from the way the state
02:52:24 the state works thank you Mr chant those are all the questions I have for you um sir it's 12:35 yes we would normally have uh a a break now to permit anyone who has questions which they wish to be put to
02:52:37 questions which they wish to be put to approach you under rule 10 I think that would be convenient now would it not yes um is the full 15 minutes likely to be
02:52:49 um is the full 15 minutes likely to be needed um I think unlikely sir if if it isn't um then uh if those who have got questions can deal with it more rapidly than 15 minutes we'll resume when they have thank
02:53:17 you
02:59:17 e e
02:59:56 sir there are actually no further questions to put to Mr chant yes in that case that concludes um today's proceedings and we will resume tomorrow at 10:00 uh I say in um a note
03:00:14 tomorrow at 10:00 uh I say in um a note of self- congratulation that for once uh one of my estimates has proved accurate Mr Char thank you very much for the assistance you the inquiry and uh uh you you are of course free to leave whenever you wish thank you it's it's been good to be able to give the evidence
03:00:46 here
03:09:46 e e