Dave Morris testifies about undercover officer HN85 (Roger Pierce, cover name Roger Thorley) who reported on anarchist groups and Stop the City demonstrations. Morris disputes HN85's characterizations, denies allegations of violence planning, exposes poor quality reporting and rumor-mongering, and defends the peaceful, decentralized nature of Stop the City protests.
00:17:57 e e
00:18:37 with apologies to everybody who I suspect is everybody or almost everybody in this room who've heard all this before um anyone may use any mobile electronic device they have to transmit silently to the outside world uh what
00:18:50 silently to the outside world uh what they've seen and heard in the inquiry but only 10 minutes after the event which is being described the purpose of that is to coincide with the video stream bya YouTube
00:19:02 stream bya YouTube which is subject to a 10-minute delay uh the devices may not be used for recording proceedings or taking photographs um as you entered the hearing venue
00:19:15 um as you entered the hearing venue today and again this afternoon you were required to agree to an order restricting onward transmission or communication of information set out in an Annex which you were shown on Entry to the hearing room this information
00:19:28 to the hearing room this information will not be published in the hearing trans transcript and will not be transmitted via the YouTube stream Council to the inquiry will direct the witness not to refer to it in their live evidence but if they advertently do so you will we will need to pause
00:19:42 you will we will need to pause proceedings if you're uncertain about how to comply with this order or you have any concerns about the terms of the order or the content of the annex please speak to shuana Williams who uh was at
00:19:54 speak to shuana Williams who uh was at the back and now is there and waving her hand and she will assist you thank you yes thank you sir Mr Morris I'm moving now to ask you some questions about the
00:20:07 now to ask you some questions about the officer known as hn 85 cover name Roger Thorley real name Roger Pierce I think you say in your witness statement that you don't actually recall um Roger
00:20:18 you don't actually recall um Roger Thorley as he would have been known to you at the time that's true and um that's correct and also um I've not been given a photograph if one exists uh so doesn't help with my I think all the cover
00:20:31 help with my I think all the cover officers should provide photographs of of them when they were in their um deployment time so that people because people often don't remember uh you know names but they might remember
00:20:42 might remember faces I'm going to ask you now about what he seems to remember about you to give you the opportunity to um comment upon it if you wish to all right so can
00:20:53 upon it if you wish to all right so can we start please with h& 185's witness statement MPS 0747 965
00:20:59 0747 965 and can we turn please to page 58 and I'm just going to set some context Mr Morris so that you can follow what he
00:21:12 Morris so that you can follow what he says so um you may be aware um now that hn 85 statement has been released that he spent a lot of his time reporting on the freedom Collective or Freedom press at paragraph 113 he says this my
00:21:28 113 he says this my objective was then to have associations and
00:21:32 and friendships it should come up on your screen
00:21:33 screen Mr my objective was then to have associations and friendships with those of a different disposition who passed through freedom and then he mentions a number of people um and we know because
00:21:47 number of people um and we know because you've not sought any privacy redactions that your name will not be under a privacy redaction so he names a number of people and that list is not include your name do you see
00:21:59 your name do you see correct can we move to paragraph 114 uh
00:22:07 please and he's sorry it's the next page paragraph 114 page
00:22:17 59 um and he's saying these two groups of people so the freedom group and the
00:22:27 of people so the freedom group and the second group that he's just listed would not necessarily get on the second group those with the more active disposition who I described in the the preceding paragraph were almost looked down upon by the intellectuals of Freedom
00:22:38 by the intellectuals of Freedom Collective the first group and he says I maintained a degree of involvement with both
00:22:44 both groups and then can we just uh move down please to paragraph 116 next page page
00:22:54 60 he says this the following people in the second group so that's the group he describes as more active than Freedom would have considered me a trusted uh
00:23:08 friend and can we just um scroll down just a little bit
00:23:17 please stop there please and we see your name is on that list Mr Mor it's just below the name Martin rise so he appears there to be describing you as somebody who would have considered him to be a trusted friend
00:23:33 friend I presume since you don't recall him you don't agree that that would be the case I don't agree yes I'm sure I would remember him if he was a trusted
00:23:48 friend can we just um scroll back up then please to 13 can I just say before you leave that page I know we're going to talk about stop the city protests yes um so no scroll down to where I was yes it
00:24:00 it 117 paragraph first point Ian bone and he says this is he has contacts with Ian bone he was the key figure in stop the city as far as I know Ian bone
00:24:21 stop the city as far as I know Ian bone wasn't even involved to slop the city at all so I think this is an example of um poor Quality Reporting by this officer right so you're saying that that recollection that bone was the key
00:24:34 recollection that bone was the key figure I don't recall him being involved at all in stop city thank you can we go just back to paragraph 113 that we looked at paragraph I do know Ian bone and I respect Ian bone but otherwise I wouldn't know that he wasn't involved but I know that um he wasn't
00:24:47 but I know that um he wasn't involved just going back to when Roger Pierce started paragraph 113 to describe this what he refers to as the second group of a different
00:25:00 group of a different disposition just a bit further down that paragraph around the middle of it he says they that's the SEC the second group were drawn to other groups and causes for example the brickton riots the autonomy Center a
00:25:12 the autonomy Center a radioactive project I think that should that means a it's a radio project rather than anything nuclear they started
00:25:24 than anything nuclear they started putting a bomb making booklet out rather than the Anarchy Collective or the London workers group you you were associated weren't you with the London workers group and the Anarchy Collective although that was that would have been earlier the Anarchy collective in the 70s
00:25:46 yes sorry what's the question I mean I I I don't know what this group is that he says is the second group I'm not aware of there being an organized group um involving these people that he's named fine were you ass so the people we whose
00:25:59 fine were you ass so the people we whose names we can see to what extent were you an associate or friend or have any connection with their names I recognize um but I can't help you with them being some kind of organized group all right I I wasn't asking you
00:26:12 group all right I I wasn't asking you about that so much just simply setting the context for what he says he recalls of his relationship with you do you follow so he seems to be suggesting that you're part of potentially part of the
00:26:24 you're part of potentially part of the second group later on by listing you in a paragraph 116 yes and I'm just exploring with you whether you meet the description that he gives of the second group here which is that they were drawn to certain groups rather than the Anarchy Collective or the London workers
00:26:41 group none of the people named uh as far as I can see were involved with the Anarchy Collective or the London workers group but you were but I was yes can we go forwards please in the statement to page
00:26:52 statement to page 89 paragraph 177
00:27:07 um this is the section of his statement we'll come back to it where he's talking about the stop the city demonstrations all right and at paragraph 177 he says this of you in terms of my personal relationships with the individual
00:27:19 relationships with the individual organizers of the demonstration I would say I was close with gilland and mccab and had an arms length relationship with Dave Morris do you see that yes again I can't recall any relationship I had
00:27:34 I can't recall any relationship I had with um Roger Thor Roger Thorley as he was known at the time okay I'm going I mean I'm sure I bumped into if he was around I'm sure I would have bumped into him occasionally but
00:27:45 have bumped into him occasionally but that's not the same as a relationship and in terms of the stop the city demonstrations I'll come back to the detail but you don't remember him particularly being involved in in that either no and nor the other named people in that sentence either
00:27:59 in that sentence either you don't remember them being involved in organizing stop the city I don't recall them being involved uh the the minutes of all the planning meetings of stopped the city are are a matter of record and they're in some of the
00:28:18 record and they're in some of the documents uh and they were open meetings um involving 60 70 people each time and um I don't recall those other two attending those meetings they may have done but but you didn't consider them to be necessarily part of it well he calls
00:28:32 necessarily part of it well he calls them the individual organizers of the demonstration um I'm no doubt we're going to come on to this in a minute anyway yeah you don't remember that
00:28:43 anyway yeah you don't remember that people be matching that description but I want to ask you before we come on to stop the city I want to ask I do say that he does say somewhere in his statement that um that his um um what's the word Recollections of stopped the city we all
00:28:57 city we all secondhand yes we'll come we'll come on to that yes um can I just before we do can I ask you about something that um Roger Pierce has said in his statement which I think was disclosed to you before you gave your witness statement shortly before you gave your witness
00:29:10 shortly before you gave your witness statement can we turn please to page 63 in that witness statement paragraph
00:29:23 120 and Mr Morris he's speaking here again about what he refers to as his second
00:29:24 second group um he says they would have supported the use of violence and infiltrated other causes to agitate and encourage violence some would have
00:29:36 encourage violence some would have deployed violence themselves and then he says for example at one point I went with someone not you and others for a spontaneous wcky of old the shock Barracks to look at the potential to put a bomb down I drove them there from
00:29:50 a bomb down I drove them there from London pretty much on the spur of the moment do you see that
00:29:59 yes if we turn please please to page 120 of the witness statement paragraph
00:30:17 247 he mentions uh that again he says the only circumstance in which I was drawn into helping in wrecking bomb sites was in relation to aler shot which I have described above and here he says I went to aler shop with Dave Morris someone else and possibly one other man
00:30:33 someone else and possibly one other man we were in my car there could have been four or five of us but I only recall those two
00:30:35 those two names I think you've denied um vehemently in your statement that you ever went on any such trip is that right yes it's a lad of rubbish were you ever to your
00:30:46 rubbish were you ever to your recollection in a car with hn 85 driving even in that area I cannot ever remember going in a car um with uh with him or or anyone that
00:31:02 um with uh with him or or anyone that could have been him uh I don't believe I've ever been to all the shot and I certainly would never have been wrecking a place for um whatever he's accusing me of
00:31:12 of um right so um yes um soor i j me just I did make some notes about this umang
00:31:31 on yeah sorry do carry on I'm just going to um ask you to look at another document that the inquiry has found are we going away from this this incident no oh okay um the inquir is found a document um within security service files ucpi
00:31:44 service files ucpi 029 06 0
00:32:07 so you should have this in your bundle C1 it's the bundle for Mr Morris
00:32:16 C1 now the the context before I show you this document Mr Morris just so it's clear I think you've been told but so that it's clear when I question you that the inquiry has not located any contemporaneous intelligence
00:32:28 contemporaneous intelligence report reporting a trip to aler shot to wcky a
00:32:30 wcky a bombsite what the inquiry has found is this document um in a security service
00:32:42 this document um in a security service file and it is dated we can't see it on the screen but it's dated the 30th of December of 1983 so it's towards the end of um h& 85 Roger Pierce Roger th's deployment not at the end but but
00:32:54 deployment not at the end but but further towards the end and it's a meeting just to give context between him and the security service as we see at the top to discuss his area of
00:33:11 the top to discuss his area of deployment can we please um zoom in on paragraph nine of the
00:33:27 document right so this is recording at the security service recording Roger Pierce telling them that he had had to become involved in ding graffiti and perpetrating minor acts of arson which I'm sure he'll be asked about
00:33:45 I'm sure he'll be asked about tomorrow um and he said this latly had been drawn into helping someone in Wrecking possible bomb s sites he stressed that the group were very security conscious and that only and
00:33:56 security conscious and that only and then there were four names new of what had been done and what was being
00:34:05 considered um you know and I'm able to say because agreement has been reached although the document doesn't reflect it that your name doesn't appear under any of those redactions cor you see so you
00:34:17 of those redactions cor you see so you are aware of that yeah he says that the only those four people know about this matter but I'm not named no I'm not saying the other people did know he may have made a whole thing up but uh yes certainly uh I was not named there yeah
00:34:29 certainly uh I was not named there yeah did you have any knowledge of an idea a plan anything at all to put a bomb in a military establishment in OT or anywhere else absolutely
00:34:44 none before we leave this document can I make a few observations about this document or are you staying on it no what what is it that you would like to make an observation so um I think this shows
00:34:59 shows um something um an insight into the reporting of Mr Pierce
00:35:03 Pierce um so
00:35:13 um so um so if I just mention a few quotes from it so in paragraph three um Mr Pierce stressed that progress in the anarchist scene was almost entirely dependent on personal relationships and personal contacts and um that isn't actually true
00:35:28 contacts and um that isn't actually true um there were many um in fact all of the
00:35:41 um there were many um in fact all of the anarchist groups that I'm aware of uh in London were open met regularly produced bulletins had bookshops that you could walk
00:35:53 walk into um and without listing them all um you know um there was no need to establish personal contacts and relationships to find out what anarchists were were doing and saying and believing so that's the first thing
00:36:01 thing um then in paragraph four um he asks he was asked about what motivated this particular group of
00:36:13 motivated this particular group of anarchists which is those presumably those four people that he names um he then later in that paragraph says he stressed that despite objecting to the state they had no reluctance to
00:36:31 to the state they had no reluctance to draw whatever Social Security that was available um and I noticed throughout his documents and reportage he makes continuous disparaging remarks of people
00:36:39 people um and um I think that should be noted um and he also makes disparaging remarks about people that are that have a
00:36:50 about people that are that have a business so if they're not drawing Social Security then they might be running a business and he disparages freedom for
00:37:02 freedom for being involved with a a business um so you can't win any way with with Mr Pierce um he then he then says uh in that same paragraph their attitude to
00:37:15 that same paragraph their attitude to violence was largely one of contempt for property and would not be aimed at people I think that's an important um so are you saying that he's he's accurate when he says that well I don't know but all I'm saying is that's what he's saying um and
00:37:32 and um on paragraph s he stressed the variety of sexual expression within the
00:37:44 expression within the group um or actually no I was going to I thought he was saying that within the
00:37:51 thought he was saying that within the movement as a whole so I'll leave that one because I don't actually know you know about the people's sexuality in that group but if he's he's kind of implying that um you know if you if you're acting in the anarchist movement that you're going to be drawn into
00:38:03 that you're going to be drawn into sexual relationships against your will that's the kind of impression I I got from some of his reportage so uh which is not true actually in my experience of
00:38:14 is not true actually in my experience of being in the anarchist movement um Mr Ro can I just pause you because I I'm conscious that we're running short of time I do want to make sure I've got time to ask you questions about stop the city okay we if there are comments on the documents your legal make Clos and
00:38:27 the documents your legal make Clos and your witness statement sets outness goes into a bit more detail about seen I hadn't seen that document and i' only seen about five or six
00:38:40 and i' only seen about five or six paragraphs of his witness statement when I was writing my witness statement yeah even though his witness statement was from two years ago I only saw it quite recently so can we turn to stop the city then as a final topic because it's
00:38:51 then as a final topic because it's something that that Roger Pierce um reported on um from your point of view you were invol involved in organizing the stop the city demonstrations would you accept that so
00:39:05 that so um yes so the I have to give a bit of background so that people understand what we're talking about but basically members of London Green Piece were going to the protest at military bases uh
00:39:16 to the protest at military bases uh against the sighting of cruise missiles nuclear missiles at uh base military bases around this country and um these were big demonstrations involving tens of thousands of people
00:39:35 of thousands of people blockades um trying to prevent the installation of these missiles um and
00:39:37 um and um and in London green pieace a few of us were sitting around saying it's kind of crazy going off into the middle of nowhere to these protests you know
00:39:48 nowhere to these protests you know surely there's somewhere in London we can have relevant protests and we thought the city of London would be a good place to have protests against militarism and the arms trade because we
00:40:00 militarism and the arms trade because we felt that the arms trade was a source of massive profit uh from financial institutions and bank that was the link to the city that was the link to the so so we called on that movement that was
00:40:19 so we called on that movement that was protesting against the military bases to to um yes to have protests in the city of
00:40:26 of London and can we put up please it's a report from Roger Pierce ucpi 01942
00:40:32 2 it's the 16th of um August
00:40:38 1983 and sir it is your uh
00:40:53 b91 so in paragraph three uh Mr Morris you are described as the prime mover behind a stop the city event planned for September of that year do you agree with that description
00:41:09 year do you agree with that description of you why not why I think I was one of a small group that suggested the idea but all of the events was organized through open Planning meetings involving at each at each of those planning meetings 50 60 or 70 people was all minuted there was a whole range of
00:41:26 minuted there was a whole range of working groups that were doing different things to prepare for the event so it was an event that was organized um if you like horizontally um rather than being
00:41:37 horizontally um rather than being directed in any way by a small group put another way if if you hadn't been there do you think the event would still have happened if you hadn't been involved but the idea ever happened the event have happened yeah I don't see why
00:41:52 not the way that um it's described in this paragraph just looking at this report um is that you had displayed your characteristic energy and enthusiasm in summoning up widespread
00:42:05 summoning up widespread support um and it says the the greatest interest to date appears to have emanated from the Loos knit libertarian and environmental groupings rather than the violent Anarchist hardcore to what extent do you agree with that
00:42:18 extent do you agree with that description well I'm not sure I agree that there was a violent Anarchist hardcore um do you agree but I think it was um it was certainly pitched it came out of the uh anti-militarist movement
00:42:30 out of the uh anti-militarist movement and the protests at the military bases bases um and it brought that character with it I think which was you know
00:42:43 with it I think which was you know largely from the if what you might call the peace
00:42:47 the peace movement if we can we just go down to paragraph five of the
00:42:58 report it suggested there that um you had made what's refer to as overtures to CND that had proved unsuccessful because there was a concern that the demonstration could prove violent and there thereby pose a threat
00:43:12 violent and there thereby pose a threat to the policy of mvda nonviolent direct action is that accurate that you tried to get C and involved but they were concerned about that aspect yes I think what they were concerned was that they wanted a
00:43:23 wanted a guarantee from the organizers of the event um that there would be no uh um um what what you might call violence
00:43:36 um um what what you might call violence but what it turned out to be is that we couldn't guarantee that if the police were
00:43:37 were aggressive um that people wouldn't defend themselves so um a we couldn't guarantee it because you know we can't
00:43:48 guarantee it because you know we can't tell what the police are going to do and B we weren't in control of the demonstration in that way it wasn't really a demonstration it was actually a um whole r of decentralized
00:43:59 um whole r of decentralized self-organized activities all over the
00:44:11 self-organized activities all over the city you know sort of Street Theater sit Downs occupations handing out leaflets slow bicycle rides it was you know we tried to create this um what's the word Mosaic of people organizing the kind of things that they
00:44:26 organizing the kind of things that they wanted to do in the city of London right it just for completeness if we could have a look at paragraph six of the report
00:44:31 um as well because it goes on to say ironically in view of the CND attitude the reluctance of anarchists to become
00:44:42 the reluctance of anarchists to become involved stems from the realization that the demonstration is intended as a pacifist
00:44:52 event were you aware of reluctance on the part of some and do you agree with its description as intended as a pacifist
00:44:53 pacifist event I I don't I can't comment what other people think basically okay I mean if people want to support event an event they will support it if they don't want
00:45:10 they will support it if they don't want to support it they might find all kinds of reasons not to support it do you do you it was a new kind of event that hadn't really happened before it was in the center of you know the financial district of London uh and it was an event that was
00:45:21 event that was decentralized with lots of initiative
00:45:33 decentralized with lots of initiative you know um different groups involved so um I can't talk about what other people what reasons they gave for not taking part all right finally on this can we just it is ironic that some people thought it was too pacifist and some people thought it might be too violent um can we finally look at
00:45:45 violent um can we finally look at paragraph seven of this report I just want to ask one more question before we leave
00:45:54 it um the suggestion there is that you attended Freedom press to request the use of the building and telephone on the day yes as a support and legal aid center that's correct was the purpose of a legal aid center because you
00:46:08 a legal aid center because you anticipated that there might be arrests yes there were arrests at all of the stop the City events of over a thousand arrests over a um a oneyear period yeah but this was this was the first such event wasn't it in September
00:46:20 event wasn't it in September 1983 and so in advance of it you anticipated that there might be ARR was this the first event or oh yeah the first event yes yeah yes so this is a report in August planning for the
00:46:31 report in August planning for the September event you anticipated that there might be arrests
00:46:38 yes um I think people organizing demonstrations of any character it's a responsibility to you know give people legal advice and support them if they're arrested can we take that down just have
00:46:52 arrested can we take that down just have a look at one uh more report relating to the September 1983 event uh ucpi 019 51
00:47:05 please and can we turn to paragraphs 6 and 7even of that report this is another report on the September this the 20th of September the stop the city was the 29th so just shortly in advance
00:47:26 um and we we see here again a description of the demonstration intended by the organizers to be a peaceful festive affair with the
00:47:41 peaceful festive affair with the emphasis firmly on symbolic activity designed to confirm the city's involvement with the war machine do you see that yes and then paragraph 7 um refers to uh anarchists expressing no support for the peaceful intentions
00:47:54 no support for the peaceful intentions of Morris and the like do you see that so it seems to be recording that your intentions were peace ful but it may be that others were not I can't talk about others intentions but the intentions of the people that
00:48:07 but the intentions of the people that were involved in organizing the event at those planning meetings are all minuted and in fact um um Mr Pierce included uh appended some of the minutes of the
00:48:23 appended some of the minutes of the planning meetings with his reports so he should have been well aware of the character of the event can we turn to a different report now this one in March 1984 so just to set the context I think there was a stop the city in September
00:48:39 city in September 1983 yes another in March 1984 yes 3,000 people attended the one in March 1984 okay and that's a 29th of March 1984 is that right and so if we look please at ucpi 02891
00:48:58 so it's your b97
00:49:07 sorry this is a report of the 7th of February so just just shy of two months before the second stopped the city um and Roger Pierce um reported on it in this way paragraph uh
00:49:25 two oh okay that that it arouse little interest amongst anarchists of Freedom Collective an Collective London autonomist Black Flag Collective or brickton Anarchist generally do you see that yes do you agree with that that they were not the events were not particularly popular
00:49:41 events were not particularly popular amongst an those named an I wouldn't say those were actively involved as groups but individuals uh probably supported yes and then can we look at paragraph uh four
00:49:53 four please I think paragraph three I'm very keen to okay let's have a look we can look at paragraph it just describes you as a principal organizer um and
00:50:10 then shall I read it out I don't think I need to to read it out but I it comments on it comments on I think this is typical of of much of his reporting and also other um spies reporting um so he says that um that
00:50:22 reporting um so he says that um that there's tension between me and somebody else I can't remember who uh on account of
00:50:31 of relationship uh with my girlfriend at the time and that I was unable to reconcile myself to a to the notion of a menaja uh which is nonsense
00:50:43 nonsense um and that I had a clandestine affair with an unidentified French woman which I
00:50:50 I didn't um it remains to be seen whether
00:51:01 didn't um it remains to be seen whether these domestic problems which didn't EX exist greeted with hilarity by those anarchists who regard Morris as a tiresome
00:51:09 tiresome irrelevance can't comment on that except for what how are other people talking about this non-existent event unless somebody is spreading rumors uh and it might jeopardize our working relationship I believe that um
00:51:21 working relationship I believe that um that's all nonsense but it shows that I believe that um Roger Thorley from reading his statement and his reports was continuously stirring up
00:51:34 was continuously stirring up division uh and rumors and uh personality clashes um and um it's more than anything else completely
00:51:46 unprofessional and I think you make the point in your statement that that this is this is one example of of that sort of reporting that you've observed can I just go back then to paragraph four of
00:51:57 just go back then to paragraph four of the report just go back to its focus on stop the
00:52:03 city it's saying of the March event in this report that it's possible that brickton anarchists or others will once again take disruptive action on or before the
00:52:18 event so the suggestion implicit in that is that some sort of anarchist grouping had taken disruptive action at the previous stop the city event do you follow if if they might once again do it were you conscious of disruption at the September 1983 stop the city
00:52:34 September 1983 stop the city event no no not that um no apart from what happened on the day uh and as I
00:52:45 what happened on the day uh and as I said the decentralized actions of all kind and um I don't um recall any specifically disruptive action um I think there he's implying here that there's some other action almost like separate from the event but deliberately I don't
00:52:59 event but deliberately I don't understand what he's saying so let me ask you this there having been some disruption at the September event well obviously there was some disruption in terms of it was a protest it was all day from 6:00 in the morning till 6:00 in the
00:53:12 the evening um you know there were sittings and occupations and uh all kinds of things were happening but largely it was
00:53:23 things were happening but largely it was entirely PE peaceful um so I'm not quite sure what he's implying here but anyway how can I speak for people that I don't know what they may or may not have done on that day you know put put that reporting to one side yes the question I've got for you is they're having been disruption at the
00:53:35 they're having been disruption at the September event did that give you any pause for thought about repeating the stop the City events were you concerned about disruption in the later events that you had a hand in planning I think the event in March was bigger uh had
00:53:54 the event in March was bigger uh had more impact but it was pretty much the same in character as the event the previous September
00:54:03 I'm going to ask please about um one other report in relation to stop the city this is ucpi 028
00:54:08 028 566
00:54:10 566 please and so this is your B 99a
00:54:32 0 28566
00:54:50 no I'll just see if I can find you a hard copy Mr Morris can do it that way don't I think they they're having trouble putting it up on the screen the screen's gone blank yes
00:55:10 I don't I don't know if there's anyone else in the room who's got a copy but I don't have a copy of that bundle here I've got
00:55:11 I've got one or M thank
00:55:22 you thank you thank you
00:55:34 I'll just repeat it for those who are following if they've got access it's ucpi
00:55:35 ucpi 028
00:55:41 028 566 and what you should have in front of you Mr Morris let me just check we're both looking at the same thing is a report dated the 12th of February of 1985 about a meeting of London Greenpeace I've actually got this I've got this one here that's very I knew it was coming
00:55:59 it's now up on the screen oh okay thank you um I I did say earlier we're coming back to London Green pieace in phase two so I'm only going to ask you about a very specific part of this report rather than the London green pce I'll try not to be tempted to aspect thank you
00:56:10 to be tempted to aspect thank you explain the whole situation um and just that it's clear the understanding of the inquiry is that this report is in fact attributable to um hn10 Bob Lambert can
00:56:23 attributable to um hn10 Bob Lambert can I ask you please to focus in on the the second half of paragraph five um which is on the second page of the report and the comment
00:56:40 there and the final part of paragraph five
00:56:51 um says this that your his being your your detractors see this that's to your attitude to some um McDonald's activities to do with McDonald's all right see this is another example of what has happened repeatedly on stop the city
00:57:01 city demonstrations whilst Morris the main instigator has kept out of trouble on the day many younger elements fired by
00:57:13 the day many younger elements fired by his propaganda and excitement have ended up in court facing serious charges so describing you effectively as instigating action by younger particularly younger people um and leaving them to get into trouble for it
00:57:24 leaving them to get into trouble for it what do you have to say about that well first of all it's complete nonsense uh which I'll go through in a minute uh secondly it's a slur
00:57:34 slur um it's yeah it's a slur an insult um and going through this paragraph sorry
00:57:44 sorry [Music]
00:58:00 um so yeah so the anti McDonald's campaign uh the main D drive of it was to give out leaflets outside McDonald stores that was the real fundamental purpose of the campaign to um question and spread
00:58:14 the campaign to um question and spread alternative ideas to cter McDonald's $2 billion a year advertising promoting their um pretty worthless business um and um that's what we did from the
00:58:25 and um that's what we did from the beginning until if you like the end uh millions of leaflets were handed out all over the world as and that was my
00:58:39 over the world as and that was my particular uh the main thing the one if you like the most the one thing that I was always promoting uh throughout that whole campaign um so if people read a leaflet or they
00:58:54 so if people read a leaflet or they dislike a company so much that they want to petrol bomb their headquarters um you cannot um you know you can't be responsible for anything that anyone
00:59:08 responsible for anything that anyone might do because they've read a leaflet or whatever so um as for as far as me keeping out of trouble on the day during stop the city uh I was there on the ground throughout the whole um stop the
00:59:26 ground throughout the whole um stop the City events the only time I wasn't there um was uh halfway through the day I got arrested on one of the stop the cities um so I wasn't keeping out of trouble I just got arrested along with everybody else um that the police wanted to arrest not that I was doing anything I I was
00:59:45 not that I was doing anything I I was just walking around um so it's just 100% nonsense this paragraph and and again very
00:59:51 unprofessional in terms of the stop the city demonstrations focusing on that do you accept at all the uh description of you as an
01:00:02 you as an instigator well I think um I was one of the small group that came up with the idea it was just a proposal uh and you know that developed through the open Planning meetings into the event it became so instigator yes I
01:00:15 the event it became so instigator yes I was one of the group that instigated the
01:00:23 idea thank you Mr Morris I have no further questions for you um I understand that we have to have a break now to see if there are any questions there haven't been any so far so in response to the invitation that you put out before lunchtime um so I'm not
01:00:40 out before lunchtime um so I'm not necessarily anticipating any but in any event there has to be a break to stop the broadcast through YouTube in Readiness for the next witness so we can combine the two if that meets with your approv that's very sensible um Mr Morris um will you bear with us for another
01:00:53 um will you bear with us for another quarter an hour minimum and if there are any further questions um have a long to ask them thank you um uh we'll pause now for 15 minutes uh that will permit any questions to be put to miss G to to ask
01:01:10 questions to be put to miss G to to ask if she thinks right but it will also uh and perhaps more importantly um permit the system to be changed over uh and I'll say what the consequence of that is when we resume in court
01:01:24 of
01:12:24 e e
01:13:22 so I will just confirm that there have been no suggestions so no further questions from from me as Council to the inquiry but I understand that Mr wood on behalf of Mr Morris would like to ask some questions yes um and may I say that
01:13:34 some questions yes um and may I say that uh the answers that you're going to give are going to be broadcast subject to the 10-minute delay we'll do the switch over when your evidence is I'll try and be brief yes can I ask that ucpi
01:13:47 brief yes can I ask that ucpi 02906 is is brought up H and can we please go to paragraph nine of that
01:14:00 yes it's paragraph nine that we we've seen before and I just want to ask you two questions about that before dealing with one one short topic I think uh
01:14:11 with one one short topic I think uh various names in that paragraph have been
01:14:24 deleted yeah the various names have been deleted but I think you've had the privilege of uh being able to see those names on one occasion and I certainly don't want to ask you to identify in any way those people but are you um uh when
01:14:41 way those people but are you um uh when you saw those names were you able to uh uh say anything about them and the likelihood of you ever being with them I I recognize the names actually except for one of them
01:14:52 for one of them um but uh to I recognize three of the names but I've never been involved in a group involving those people okay so you've never been
01:15:03 people okay so you've never been involved in a group and just help me with this did they live anywhere near you or or or or or any as far as I know um that they well I don't know where
01:15:15 um that they well I don't know where they all lived but uh I lived in North London and uh I think the Bookshop that um Mr Pierce was associating them with
01:15:26 um Mr Pierce was associating them with was in in South London I did used to go and visit there sometimes uh because they used to have um Sunday afternoon meals for people to socialize and of course it was a Bookshop with interesting magazines uh I think they
01:15:39 interesting magazines uh I think they had a good International selection of magazines so um but I was never in a group with any of those named people as far as I can have you ever so far as your knowledge is concerned being concerned in any action at all with
01:15:51 concerned in any action at all with those poor people I can't recall any action no thank you very much uh then um I'm going to ask please that uh ucpi
01:16:07 Z oh yes and what were you doing in 1983 so in 1983 I was um well which day no I mean it dated December of 1983 that it talks about it
01:16:20 December of 1983 that it talks about it having happened befor was stop the city so um in
01:16:22 so um in 1983 uh my main activity was uh Tottenham uh was the clemments union which I think at that stage we hadn't started Tottenham claimants Union I was involved with Haring gay and Islington
01:16:42 involved with Haring gay and Islington claimants Union um and I was pretty much focused on my local community but in terms of my um if you like wider strategic activity I was heavily V with stop the city I just joined London Greenpeace that year and because that
01:16:56 Greenpeace that year and because that was a way of expressing my concern about the environment and about corporations generally um and um I was involved with stop the city that was my main activity I'm going to just ask you some questions
01:17:13 I'm going to just ask you some questions about um uh uh Tony Williams if I may uh concerning his taking of of of of positions uh as secretary and and Treasurer and you were asked some questions about whether and to what
01:17:30 questions about whether and to what extent he may have volunteered for or or not volunteered for those those positions within the organization uh can you say anything about first of all uh whether people are in any way pressured into taking those kinds of positions no definitely not I
01:17:43 kinds of positions no definitely not I mean they're not pressured in terms of you know um often a group um struggles to find a community group or a small group struggles to find officers you
01:17:58 group struggles to find officers you know um but nobody would be pressured but there may have been come on someone's got to be the next Treasurer or the next secretary but it would definitely be a voluntary decision
01:18:09 definitely be a voluntary decision either way and you're unable to say whether they were taken with any enthusiasm or not no can't remember well then I want just finally to ask the ucpi 01
01:18:20 ucpi 01 14228 is put up please this is a document from I think the the 1980s and I'm going to ask that you turn to
01:18:42 you turn to paragraph uh three and uh read paragraph three uh please it says the uh uh lwg are an open group with no formal membership any person is welcome provided they are non-party Builders
01:18:53 provided they are non-party Builders believe in autonomous workers groups and a nonh hierarchical government the purpose of the group is to attract a larger number of workers who will be given advice on the formation of autonomous groups at their
01:19:04 formation of autonomous groups at their factories and workplaces that's correct that was 1980 does that fairly represent I think that's a good summary yes yes thank you very much I'm just going to pause there anything else no thank you
01:19:18 pause there anything else no thank you very much sir do you have any questions no thank you um Mr Morris uh you've said and I anticipate that you will um give evidence again in phase two of this part of the inquiry um May I
01:19:33 of this part of the inquiry um May I express my gratitude to to you for the care and trouble that you've taken in dealing with the inquiries questions in providing evidence and information to the inquiry it is very much appreciated
01:19:47 the inquiry it is very much appreciated and uh we will meet again in the not too distant future I look forward to it thank you thank you [Applause]
01:19:59 uh I'm now going to pause proceedings for I'm told five minutes while we change over from one system to another and I will say something about that when we resume