Dr. Lindsey German, a Socialist Workers Party Central Committee member, provides evidence about SWP activities including Malcolm X rallies, joy Gardner protests, and the Battle of Waterloo demonstration. Key focus on allegations about violent tactics, the 1993 Welling anti-BNP demonstration, and police characterizations of SWP as seeking confrontation.
00:20:57 e e
00:21:56 with apologies to those at the back who've heard all this before many times I must repeat it uh you may use any mobile electronic device you have to transmit silently to the outside world what you've seen and heard in the inquiry but only 10 minutes after the
00:22:09 inquiry but only 10 minutes after the event that you're describing uh that is to uh coincide with the 10minute delay on the live video stream you may not use that such a device for recording
00:22:22 that such a device for recording proceedings or for taking photographs Mr bar thank you sir uh Dr German uh I'd like to ask you now about a Malcolm X rally uh it's sir b28
00:22:50 28204 this is a report from hn 78 dated the 12th of September 1992 about a Malcolm X rally um on the
00:23:01 1992 about a Malcolm X rally um on the second page you are recorded as having been
00:23:07 been present um says the meeting was the last in the series of seven rallies held throughout the UK to promote Kevin endon's book Malcolm X socialism and black nationalism since the first rally in Tottenham on the 6th of September enden who is a leading black s swp
00:23:20 enden who is a leading black s swp activist and Ahmed Shi a prominent member of the S swp's American sister party the international socialist organization ation have refined their
00:23:32 organization ation have refined their approach they have diluted their attack on black nationalism and have stopped trying to recruit blacks directly into the swp aiming instead to gain black support in the swp struggle Against Racism and the class structure during an
00:23:47 Racism and the class structure during an often heated debate it became clear that the majority of the black audience supported the prevalent view expressed throughout the tour that black self-help and unity was a necessary precursor to
00:23:59 and unity was a necessary precursor to any organized black involved ment with predominantly white groups even anti-racist ones like the swp despite the repeated rejection of the swp doctrine some party members see the
00:24:13 doctrine some party members see the rallies as having been a success this is due largely to the speeches by ahed Shi on the Los Angeles riots which portrayed
00:24:25 on the Los Angeles riots which portrayed the conjoining of the Bloods and the CPS street gangs against the common enemy I.E the police as a socially and politically significant blow against the American ruling class this they feel has
00:24:36 American ruling class this they feel has swn the seed of mass action in the minds of the black community can I just ask the sentiment uh that the Crips and bloods uniting
00:24:48 uh that the Crips and bloods uniting against the police as a common Enemy being socially and politically significant was that a view held by those of you in the swp Central Committee
00:24:58 Committee I don't suppose we ever um discussed it
00:25:09 I don't suppose we ever um discussed it at at that level but I think what ammed was uh was saying was that um you know as people know there's this you know long-standing gang rivalry in in Los Angeles which actually is very
00:25:21 Angeles which actually is very destructive in all sorts of ways and the point he was making was that the Bloods and the crypts who were very much opposed to one another did unite in terms of standing up against against the police and that was the point he talked
00:25:32 police and that was the point he talked about the Los Angeles riots I mean these were of very great significance in the United States at the time and they were probably the most significant after the events of the 1960s so I think that's what he was referring to if you want to
00:25:48 what he was referring to if you want to put it in more general terms perhaps he was talking about sort of workingclass unity against the authorities Against The Establishment and against the state I think it that was the sense in which he meant it yeah and that has the
00:26:01 he meant it yeah and that has the approval of the P Central Committee I as I say I don't think they ever discussed it but certainly I agreed with that General sentiment that it was a step forward that this this working class which was divided by this kind of rivalry on the basis of gangs was
00:26:16 rivalry on the basis of gangs was actually overcoming some of that in the course of the developments not just of the riots themselves but of what happened afterwards thank you if we could take that down and if we could have up um 245 218 please
00:26:33 now this is a report which follows the verdict in the trial of those accused in relation to the death of Joy Gardner it's dated the 23rd of June 1995 if you look first of all at paragraph one to set the scene this
00:26:45 paragraph one to set the scene this report deals with the meeting held at woodgreen Civic Center at 1930 hours on
00:26:58 woodgreen Civic Center at 1930 hours on Wednesday the 21st of June 95 to protest against the verdict in the joy Gardner trial the meeting was extremely well attended with the majority of those present being from the black community the venue was too small to accommodate all those wishing to enter so a public address system was used to relay the
00:27:10 address system was used to relay the debate outside to those who were unable to gain access the majority of those present were aged 30 plus and many were representative of the black middle classes the meeting was carried out in
00:27:23 classes the meeting was carried out in an orderly manner throughout it finished about 2245 hours and there was no disorder could we go now to to paragraph um three
00:27:34 please page three top
00:27:44 paragraph um yes the top paragraph on the right hand side um Nikki Johnson swp spoke of the tor's need to use the race
00:27:56 race card now she said so-called illegal immigrants will be deported she reiterated that blacks had helped build this country and now that they were no longer needed they were to be
00:28:07 were no longer needed they were to be shipped back she said that the only way to get Justice against the ruling classes was to do as the people of Los Angeles did in 1992 and Riot on the
00:28:18 Angeles did in 1992 and Riot on the street she said she found it brilliant how blacks and Hispanics carried out these riots and how recently the Asian youth had done the same thing in batford she urged everybody to join the the demonstration call for the 29th of July
00:28:34 demonstration call for the 29th of July 1995 and show the police that they would no longer accept the killing of black people uh are you able to help us with whether this is or is not an accurate record of what Nikki Johnson said I I
00:28:50 record of what Nikki Johnson said I I don't know I wasn't at the meeting and I don't know whether it was an accurate record of of what she said and assuming that it is an accurate record would her utterances have had the support of the
00:29:01 utterances have had the support of the swp Central Committee well I don't think I would have phrased it in quite the way that she did but I think the point she
00:29:12 that she did but I think the point she was making was that blacks and Hispanics had actually United and this is the point obviously earlier um about the different gangs and that had United in terms of standing up for themselves I me you have to remember this was after a
00:29:32 you have to remember this was after a horrific murder by the police of a black man in in in Los Angeles and um I I don't agree that the riots on the streets is the main way that people will get Justice against the ruling classes but I do think that she was right to say that people do have to unite across
00:29:45 that people do have to unite across different races and ethnicities and so on and that they have to stand up for themselves and I think that is the point that she was trying to make there thank you could we take that down and could we have up please 28200
00:30:08 this is the first of two reports about the Battle of watero um this
00:30:17 one precedes the uh the date H not the open ground schedule the document itself
00:30:28 please there should be a document with the same ucpr my number that's it thank
00:30:41 you so it's about forthcoming event then forthcoming 12th of September 92 at waterl
00:30:42 waterl station um about arising from screwdriver which is a farri band isn't it
00:30:59 it um says that the likelihood of disorder violent disorder or criminal acts possible uh paragraph one the
00:31:01 one the leadership of the Socialist Workers Party has directed that members of North and East London branches of the S swp
00:31:12 and East London branches of the S swp and the ANL are to attend water station to confront neonazis and skinheads members have been instructed to meet at 4:30 in the main Concourse near the cinema and have been strictly warned that they are to take orders from Julie
00:31:24 that they are to take orders from Julie Waterson and from no other person there are no plans by the S swp ANL to attend the eventual venue of this concert it is known that the majority of s swp ANL
00:31:41 known that the majority of s swp ANL members are apprehensive at the thought of physical confrontation and this may be
00:31:42 be reflected in a low turnout can you help us were you present on the day at the Battle of watero no I wasn't um were you involved in
00:31:58 wasn't um were you involved in preparations and in particular in the direction that is referred to in this paragraph what about Julie that Julie was the person that they had to take orders from and nobody else both that
00:32:15 orders from and nobody else both that and the fact of the the turnout from the north and east London branches well that would have been perfectly normal that if there was a local protest you would ask particular
00:32:26 local protest you would ask particular districts in London to uh to attend so yeah that would have been normal I knew that there was I remember the screwdriver gig taking place um I don't quite understand this I mean
00:32:37 um I don't quite understand this I mean it seems to me that what it's saying is that somebody has to be that people have to go to Waterloo Station but then they're saying they don't go to the eventual venue so I don't quite
00:32:49 eventual venue so I don't quite understand what that is about and what they're trying to say there do you have any recollection of what the directions to members were
00:33:02 to members were no I I probably didn't know them apart from if I wasn't on the demonstration apart from that they were to go to watero and um they would be told where to go then so whether there was a protest aimed to get people going to the gig at watero station itself or whether
00:33:15 gig at watero station itself or whether people were being redirected there from there to somewhere else which sometimes happened with the um with these sorts of things I don't I don't actually know I don't and I don't quite understand as I
00:33:30 don't and I don't quite understand as I say then says that the majority of s swp NL members are apprehensive of the thought of physical confrontation which is exactly the opposite Point than has been made at various points in these in
00:33:43 been made at various points in these in these um reports so I mean what are they saying that the S swp did go in large numbers it didn't I don't know really do you know whether there was a strict warning uh to take orders from Julie Watson and no one else quite likely
00:34:00 Watson and no one else quite likely because these situations are sometimes quite fraud and if for example you're saying to people go to water loose station we then redirect you to another place where uh we think the fascist might be then it would be sensible to
00:34:12 might be then it would be sensible to say that this person is responsible for giving you directions and don't just head off on your own or don't just take any notice of anybody else who might be trying to give you orders at that time
00:34:25 trying to give you orders at that time that would be how I would interpret that I mean there may be various reasons for it one could posit that it's you don't want want your members caught in small numbers by the far right that's one possibility yeah um you don't want hote
00:34:36 possibility yeah um you don't want hote heads um provoking violence which leads to other of your members being hurt well that may be a possible interpretation but it's very hard to tell from this
00:34:47 but it's very hard to tell from this what's going on really thank you if we could take that down and have up please 28205
00:35:12 uh this is um a postevent report dated the 18th of September uh it says um events on the 12th of September took the ANL swp leadership by surprise they now regard
00:35:26 leadership by surprise they now regard it as a miscalculation that they did not mobilize greater opposition to the screwdriver gig and present a higher profile on the day prior to the demonstration the ANL swp were of the
00:35:39 demonstration the ANL swp were of the opinion that the gig was of no political significance and merely an excuse for anti-fascist Action to have a fight it was only when widespread publicity was
00:35:50 was only when widespread publicity was given to the anticipated confrontation that some members were directed to attend at this time there is no intention among s swp orl leaders to
00:36:01 intention among s swp orl leaders to abandon their policy against violence but efforts to generate more mass actions will be redoubled can you recall whether this accurately reflects the feeling of the swp's leadership after the
00:36:16 swp's leadership after the event well if there were few if there weren't enough people and if the demonstration was very large and if the S swp didn't have a large mobilization uh they may well have
00:36:28 mobilization uh they may well have thought um we need to get we should have had had a higher profile we should have had maybe larger numbers there um but I would just refer this back to the context of um
00:36:40 context of um the previous uh situation that we had with anti-fascist work in the late 70s which was as as we've discussed before but the whole question of squad ISM and
00:36:53 but the whole question of squad ISM and the idea of small groups of people going off uh to confront the fascist physically and it was something that we were
00:36:58 were very much opposed to we thought it was a it was it was counterproductive in terms of what it did anti-fascist action had that approach in a way that we didn't so
00:37:15 that approach in a way that we didn't so I would think that this um they just saw this as possibly it's going to be some kind of Confrontation between a small number of anti-fascist action and um a small number of fascist now um it's clear that that it was a bigger
00:37:27 clear that that it was a bigger demonstration than that but that that would explain I think some of the caution in the previous thing about that people should take orders from Julie and shouldn't wander off on their own and do all those sorts of things that's how I
00:37:39 all those sorts of things that's how I would explain it because there was quite a lot of violence in the event wasn't there I don't know I mean I don't Rec I'm not saying there wasn't but as I say I wasn't there and I think it was if it was a you know they were a farri band
00:37:51 was a you know they were a farri band and therefore their followers would have been skin heads and various far right figures so yes there probably was quite a lot of violence at it could we take that down please and I'd like to move next to a March
00:38:03 next to a March Welling in May 1993 it's tab b34 sir if we could have 3905 please
00:38:35 thank you if we can start with the next
00:38:45 page this is uh an event performer for an event on the 15th of May 1993 in plumstead and Welling Kent involving the anti-nazi league 1500
00:38:57 involving the anti-nazi league 1500 people present says disorder was prev vented but the mood was angry um organizers of this event I.E leaders of the swp are disappointed at the low turnout for what had been
00:39:10 the low turnout for what had been heralded as a huge demonstration only about 1500 demonstrators participated as opposed to the somewhat optimistically anticipated 5,000 the poor showing is being
00:39:22 5,000 the poor showing is being attributed to three main factors namely a general fear of of violence following disorder on the 8th of May the
00:39:33 disorder on the 8th of May the re-rooting of the march to avoid the BMP Bookshop and headquarters and rumors that the March had actually been banned these appeared in the Press on the morning of the March and the FA Cup
00:39:47 morning of the March and the FA Cup Final so it would appear that there was a lot going against a successful demonstration on that day can you recall this
00:39:57 this event yes I do recall it because there was a demonstration the week before which um was bigger than this I think and where
00:40:05 and where um that went to the Bookshop uh this was an attempt to do a similar
00:40:11 similar thing the reasons put here are probably there's probably a degree of Truth in um the fact they didn't go to the Bookshop and people would want to go to the
00:40:23 and people would want to go to the Bookshop um cut final I can't really comment on I don't know how much that affects people going on demonstrations of this sort um
00:40:38 of this sort um and yeah I mean I think people you know again if you look at the background to this we've got this very violent situation developing in this part of London I mean there've been
00:40:50 London I mean there've been several uh racist murders including the murder of Steven Lawrence just around that
00:40:51 that time um we'd had this BMP so-called Bookshop which actually was a a head quarters a political headquarters which people many people believed did
00:41:02 people many people believed did organize racist attacks from the Bookshop is that encouraged these sorts of things
00:41:10 of things um and so these may all have had a factor but sometimes it's also just the case that one week you might have a
00:41:21 case that one week you might have a demonstration it it's hits you know it strikes aord with people in a way and they come to it and you might have one on the same subject a week or two later and it doesn't so all of those could be
00:41:32 and it doesn't so all of those could be possible factors in it I'm not sure any one is but obviously it it was disappointing to get that number of demonstrators if we could go to the bottom paragraph on that
00:41:49 page thank you before the demonstrators arrived at plumsted stewards had been given instructions by the organizers the object of the exercise was to be a march on the BMP premises notwithstanding police measures to prevent this if numbers were sufficient
00:42:03 prevent this if numbers were sufficient the Marchers were to try to force their way through police lines at upper Wickham lane and then to the Bookshop if the first frontal assault failed
00:42:14 the first frontal assault failed activists at the rear were to turn and lead the March through opening forced through weaker police lines until the Bookshop via back streets organizers assumed that the first assault would
00:42:29 assumed that the first assault would draw police away from the Apparently compliant Marchers at the rear and enable a second successful attack on the police
00:42:37 police Cordon you are recorded in this report as having been present is that right no it isn't right I
00:42:50 it isn't right I mean the idea that we were going to say that we're going the marches are going to for sorry my first question is were you there yes yes I was there sorry now yeah now is it right yeah is this right
00:43:01 yeah now is it right yeah is this right no I don't think it is and I don't think it is because um if you look at the uh the idea that the Marchers were going to try to force their way through police lines uh I don't think that would have been the way in which it was it was
00:43:15 been the way in which it was it was assessed or the way in which we were going to do it I think what we may well have said is we wanted to get to the Bookshop we're prepared and this has happened on other demonstrations we're prepared to go by other routes if the
00:43:26 prepared to go by other routes if the police won't let us go down this route will go by other routes and I um I think that's that's actually what happened or
00:43:38 that's that's actually what happened or what what people tried to do um but this stuff about organizers assumed that the first assault would draw police away from the Apparently compliant Marchers at the rear is that definitely was not the way it was planned or discussed and
00:43:51 the way it was planned or discussed and it just I think again this is a sort of attempt to put a rather a strong you know rather a strong View on actually how the demonstration was organized I don't think it's right was there an
00:44:07 don't think it's right was there an instruction to try and force the police Lines no there wasn't we what we would have said is we want to go to the Bookshop and that would be the position that we would have taken but we do not say to people try to force through the
00:44:20 say to people try to force through the police lines it's just simply it's not realistic for people to do it and therefore we would have looked at other ways of doing it and as I say that would
00:44:32 ways of doing it and as I say that would have been as it says here and they would people would try to get to the Bookshop through via back streets I mean that's that's quite a common tactic on certain demonstrations of All Sorts thank you could we go to page
00:44:46 could we go to page three top paragraph please the low number of demonstrators virtually equaled by the police and the apparent preparedness of the police to deal with any trouble dissuaded the leaders from instigating
00:44:57 instigating the plan is it right that the event was very heavily policed yes it was right it was right but the rest of it is just is
00:45:10 was right but the rest of it is just is not right because it wasn't true that um it dissuaded the leaders uh that wasn't that wasn't the intention was definitely not to force their way through police lines so it would have
00:45:22 through police lines so it would have been that people would have thought of different ways of getting round it without having to do that and yet again this is um you know this this whole notion that heavy policing means
00:45:36 notion that heavy policing means demonstrations don't do anything I've been on so many demonstrations where there's very very few police and there is no Disorder so it doesn't really add up this idea that you have to have heavy policing and you have to have riot
00:45:48 policing and you have to have riot shields you have to have all these sorts of things in order to make sure that
00:46:00 of things in order to make sure that people don't Riot people don't Riot most of the time for perfectly good reasons what success did your members have in getting to the Bookshop via the back streets not much success not much success and why was that probably CU there weren't enough of them and too many police well I doubt the police were down
00:46:16 police well I doubt the police were down all the back street so I'm not sure that was the main reason either could we go to the next paragraph please
00:46:35 thank you in an attempt to salvage some credibility the organizers distributed the relatively small number of black demonstrators strategically throughout the march to enhance its Blackness did that happen no I mean it's just this
00:46:50 that happen no I mean it's just this stuff is just really not serious I mean the idea that you're going to say to Black members please you know move around the mark so it looks like there's more black people on it than than there are
00:46:59 are it's just I don't know where they get this stuff from I really don't additionally Gary mcfallen a leading black in the swp made an impassion
00:47:16 black in the swp made an impassion speech calling for a concerted effort in conjunction with youth Against Racism y the youth wing of militant and panther UK against the BMP and racist attacks this said mcfallen would bring at least
00:47:29 this said mcfallen would bring at least 10,000 demonstrators onto the streets of Welling and the police Poli would be powerless to stop them marching on the BNP did Mr McFarland say anything to that effect I don't recall what Gary said but it's quite possible yeah because putting that sort of number of
00:47:46 because putting that sort of number of demonstrators on the streets of Welling is what happened a few months later is in October yeah and was the intention to have such numbers that the police would be powerless to stop them marching on the int was that wanted to go to the
00:48:00 int was that wanted to go to the Bookshop that we were determined to go to the Bookshop we thought it was completely unjustified that the police were not allowing us to go there in the context of the racist violence that been going on in the context of the election
00:48:15 going on in the context of the election of a a fascist counselor in toar hamlets which had also happened that year there was a very big uh Wellspring of opinion that we had to do more to stop the fascists and that was a a very important thing so yes G was saying we'll get
00:48:28 thing so yes G was saying we'll get sufficient numbers onto the streets of
00:48:38 sufficient numbers onto the streets of Welling and the police will have to let us March onto the headquarters because we were very open as were these other organizations and all sorts of other people that we wanted to close that Bookshop down we thought it was a center of racist organizing of course now 30 years later these things aren't really in dispute but at the time the police
00:48:50 in dispute but at the time the police who some of whom were uh involved in all sorts of uh complicity over the Lawrence case over other cases in that in that area the truth is the police were
00:49:09 area the truth is the police were determined to stop us from doing it and we felt that was unjustified given the threat of the Bookshop and given our rights in a democracy to be able to protest outside it could we go to the next paragraph please uh it is clear that the violence shown by the Panthers on the 8th of May has increased the stakes in the battle
00:49:21 has increased the stakes in the battle for credibility amongst the anti-racist
00:49:34 for credibility amongst the anti-racist groups the ANL s swp is now desperate to Shug off its white woolly liberal image and to reassure the rank and file that the
00:49:38 the organization had not missed the boat in the anti-bmp campaign s swp ANL participation in future events in the area will be carefully considered and it is likely that the next big
00:49:52 is likely that the next big demonstration will be the subject of a full National callout especially if there is another serious racial incident locally it is right isn't it that the
00:50:05 locally it is right isn't it that the October demonstration was the subject of a full National call out yes that's right that's right but it was also we wanted to unite all the different campaigns it was called the unity uh demonstration for that reason we wanted
00:50:18 demonstration for that reason we wanted it to be a mass demonstration because we thought it needed to be sufficiently large to bring in very large numbers of people and to be effective rather than the series of smaller or divided demonstrations that might happen
00:50:29 demonstrations that might happen otherwise was there a feeling that the S swp had a white wooly liberal image that needed to be shaken off well I didn't think so I don't think anybody in the
00:50:40 think so I don't think anybody in the swp thought so and I don't really think the undercover policing people thought so given they spent so much time trying to say the opposite so no I don't think that's
00:50:55 that's realistic thank you I'd like to move now to some evidence about Brick Lane it's tab b39 9 a sir 24344
00:51:14 please uh so this is a report uh about an event on the 26th of September 1993 uh the nature of the event is said
00:51:28 1993 uh the nature of the event is said to have been a mass paper sale at which 2 to 300 BNP support and 5 to 700 uh
00:51:30 700 uh opposition uh were estimated the likelihood of disorder is assessed as high event
00:51:42 disorder is assessed as high event opposed by anti-fascist organizations and the
00:51:43 and the mood violent hostile to police could we go to page three
00:52:01 please feeling is running very high at present that the BNP can be driven from the Streets of London the Bookshop continues to be the focal point for resentment and the ground swell of opinion is that it must be
00:52:17 opinion is that it must be destroyed the means differs according to the propensity for violence amongst the various
00:52:25 organizations was it the ground swell of opinion that the Bookshop must be destroyed no it was the groundwell that it should be closed down it should be
00:52:37 it should be closed down it should be shut if by destroyed you mean physically destroying it that wasn't the it was always closed down the Bookshop shut down the BMP Bookshop that's or people
00:52:48 down the BMP Bookshop that's or people sudden didn't call it Bookshop or put it in inverted commers for obvious reasons since it had very little to do with being a Bookshop um but no that was the sentiment that we wanted to it to close down and we did um we certainly didn't talk about it
00:53:03 um we certainly didn't talk about it must be destroyed and the idea the means differs according to the propensity for violence among the various organizations I mean you can only I don't know what on Earth these different means were according to the propensity for violence I mean it just that wasn't the way in
00:53:16 I mean it just that wasn't the way in which the campaign was being organized did different groups Express different views as to how the Bookshop should be
00:53:28 views as to how the Bookshop should be dealt with I think everybody and I don't want to speak obviously for other organizations but I think everybody on the left wanted it closed down wanted it so that it wouldn't be there anymore it wouldn't be a center of organizing now there are different ways you can do that
00:53:42 there are different ways you can do that um for example ARA had the demonstration on the same day as the Welling demonstration in central London and that was their means of doing it petitioning going to the Bookshop and and physically being outside the
00:53:53 and physically being outside the Bookshop we thought was very important in terms of the campaign to close it down and after all it did get closed down the following year after the demonstration I'm going to move now to preparations for the October
00:54:09 preparations for the October demonstration at Welling we'll be moving back a couple of months in time initially to the first report about preparations which is from June of 1993 so it's tab b36
00:54:20 so it's tab b36 33239 please
00:54:43 we see from the first page that it's a report dated the 29th of June uh it's about um plans for the unity demonstration presumably call that for the very reason you've just
00:54:54 the very reason you've just explained and if we could go over the page to the anti-nazi League's leaflet closed down the BNP National
00:55:07 leaflet closed down the BNP National Unity demonstration Beckle October the 16th
00:55:10 16th 1993 since the Nazi BNP set up its headquarters in the Beckley area there
00:55:21 headquarters in the Beckley area there have been four racist murders and in the last year in southeast London there has been a
00:55:34 been a 210% increase in racist attacks a since 1989 local and National anti-racist organizations have lobbied Beckley Council 23 times and held six demonstrations We Believe now more more than ever it is important that we have
00:55:50 than ever it is important that we have one huge United demonstration to finally close down the Nazi BNP headquarters and that encapsulates in a nutshell doesn't it the background to this March
00:56:10 doesn't it the background to this March that's right yes and that was the aim of the March and the considerable strength of feeling yes and as it says here the number of lobbies of the council the demonstrations the real fear that the racist attacks were going to
00:56:22 racist attacks were going to continue and were becoming very very normalized in that part of London
00:56:32 um goes on to say the anti-nazi league is supporting together with other anti-racist and anti-fascist organizations a call for large demonstration in Beckley to close down the Nazi BMP headquarters the demonstration will be led by the victims of racist violence and the family
00:56:51 of racist violence and the family campaigns so far apart from the ANL the following organizations and campaigns have agreed to be part of the unity demonstration the Roland Adams family campaign the Rohit dugle family campaign Indian workers Association GB Y and
00:57:04 Indian workers Association GB Y and search light the Lawrence Family are currently in Jamaica where Steven is being buried they will be contacted as soon as they
00:57:20 soon as they return how important was it to you uh to have
00:57:25 have uh families such as The Adams Family and the family on board well it obviously was very important these were people who were directly who directly suffered as a result of this racism and who in each
00:57:40 result of this racism and who in each case did a huge amount over subsequent period to campaign about their own children but also more generally about the threat of the BMP and the uh the
00:57:51 the threat of the BMP and the uh the danger of racist attack so yes it was important to have them on board and in the result was the Lawrence Family involved no I don't think they were I think they were um on the other demonstration the ARA
00:58:10 demonstration the ARA demonstration can we take that down uh please and can we go to a photograph it's a tab A2 sir uh 37102
00:58:33 uh this is a book shop isn't it yeah uh and heavily fortified at the front yeah yeah could we take that down please could we have up 3801 tab b37 sir
00:59:21 thank you this is an event performer uh based on hn 78 intelligence uh about that forthcoming demonstration on the 16th of October
00:59:34 demonstration on the 16th of October list the groups uh that uh were known to be involved numbers likely to attend at this stage the police are saying unable to assess likelihood of disorder they are saying simply possible mood
00:59:47 are saying simply possible mood vifer it goes on then in the text to talk about the efforts that were being made to prepare
00:59:59 made to prepare uh for the event and as you've confirmed earlier that it would so far as the S swp was concerned uh be a national call out can we go over the page
01:00:16 please and we see there a list of the groups uh
01:00:22 groups uh being uh involved as far as the police are
01:00:24 are concerned to what extent were you personally involved in preparations for this March I was involved in sort of General discussions but I wasn't involved in the
01:00:37 involved in the detailed um organizing of the demonstration but I was involved in some general discussions about it and about the nature of the mobilization and what
01:00:48 the nature of the mobilization and what we were trying to do with it presumably this would have been an item on the agenda at your weekly Central committee meetings certainly some of the time it would be
01:01:03 would be yes if we can move to the next um report on preparations which is from late September it's 333 43s that is 7 tab b 40
01:01:29 sir uh so again the headers show it's the same demonstration that's being reported on by this stage and this report is dated the 28th of September the police um estimate is numbers likely to attend 10 to
01:01:45 to attend 10 to 20,000 likelihood of disorder serious widespread disorder and violence
01:01:57 widespread disorder and violence directed at BMP supporters and property Andor police is to be expected mood hostile
01:02:01 hostile confrontational so considerable change from the last report well there's a considerable change in the reporting but I wouldn't say there was a change in the
01:02:12 I wouldn't say there was a change in the attitude towards the demonstration it is indeed only the only the report and let's look at some of uh the text uh this demonstration is the first example of real solidarity amongst anti-racist anti-fascist groups in
01:02:23 anti-racist anti-fascist groups in recent times the object of the exercise is PR primarily to force the closure of
01:02:34 is PR primarily to force the closure of the BNP party headquarters and Bookshop in Welling and secondly to speed the demise of the BMP all together the main participating groups are the ANL youth Against Racism in Europe an emerging and successful
01:02:45 in Europe an emerging and successful group sponsored by militant Panther UK the direct action movement anti-fascist action and various and Anarchist elements of these the ANL will
01:02:58 elements of these the ANL will numerically be the largest the ANL as a wholly manipulated subsidiary of the Socialist Workers Party has committed enormous resources to this event in the hope of repeating the success of the
01:03:13 hope of repeating the success of the original ANL which defeated the national front is all of that
01:03:24 front is all of that accurate um what the whole paragraph Yes just let me have a look at it again um it's true it was the object of the exercise was to closed the um headquarters yeah they were the main groups
01:03:32 groups um it's not true that the ANL is a wholly manipulated subsidiary of the swp that just simply as we've discussed earlier it was much wider than that it contain many many people who weren't
01:03:47 contain many many people who weren't members of the S swp it is true that the S swp and the ANL both committed resources to this event um because as it says here here we didn't want we saw
01:04:00 says here here we didn't want we saw what happened in the 1970s the ANL was absolutely Central to defeating the national front in the late 1970s and was very very important in doing so we wanted to be able to do the same again in terms of Derek Beacon being a counselor in terms of the existence of
01:04:19 counselor in terms of the existence of the headquarters in Welling and that was why we put big resources into it it's why we said it should be a national demonstration it's why we did get coaches from up and down the country of people to go on the demonstration we thought it was a political priority why did the AR decide to go It
01:04:32 priority why did the AR decide to go It Alone with a completely separate protest in a very different location well that's a question again you'd have to ask them
01:04:45 a question again you'd have to ask them I my assessment is that again this isn't the first or probably the last time these sorts of things happen that people who generally might agree on the same goal don't agree on the tactics of how you do it and they wanted to have
01:04:56 you do it and they wanted to have something which was very far away from where the headquarters was that it would be as I remember it was in trala square at the same time and um their aim was to
01:05:11 at the same time and um their aim was to have a a demonstration which opposed the BMP but didn't actually deal with in my view what was the main concrete problem which was that you should be able to say we want this Bookshop closed down so I
01:05:24 we want this Bookshop closed down so I think that's why they did it it was much more you know the a whole number of MPS went on it Ken Livingston was on it who was the mayor of London at the no he wasn't the mayor of London at the time
01:05:36 wasn't the mayor of London at the time we'd been in the um in the GLC obviously he became the mayor of London later on um th though he was quite instrumental
01:05:47 um th though he was quite instrumental in organizing it as I recall so it was a it was a an attempt to have a separate demonstration which gathered people around the same issue but without having any question of going near the the
01:05:58 any question of going near the the Bookshop and without the attendant risk of trouble well I and without the numbers I mean there were 2 or 3,000 people on that demonstration there was 60,000 in Welling so I would argue that the vast majority of people did
01:06:12 the vast majority of people did understand the importance of going to the um to the Bookshop and you can actually have trouble on a demonstration in trafala square has as has happened
01:06:24 in trafala square has as has happened but you know I take your point okay uh next paragraph demon trators will
01:06:35 next paragraph demon trators will assemble at wind's common Elum intending to march on the BMP Bookshop whilst it has not been explicitly stated by organizers the intention of the protesters is to attack the Bookshop physically who says I mean this is a
01:06:47 physically who says I mean this is a report which has no basis in any fact does it it's while it's not been explicitly stated by the organizers well that's maybe because they didn't state it and didn't intend it to
01:07:00 happen could we go to the next page please to the
01:07:10 top anls swp organizers have discussed the possibility of police Banning the demonstration the resources committed to the event are so great that the event could not be cancelled even if the
01:07:22 could not be cancelled even if the organizers were inclined to do so which they are not the ANL WP has printed or intends to print some 100,000 leaflets in the name of both the ANL and the
01:07:34 in the name of both the ANL and the unity group and 50,000 placards for the event organizers publicly state that up to 50,000 people will attend the
01:07:47 to 50,000 people will attend the demonstration and privately they are planning for 20,000 first of all um is the scale of the preparations accurately reflected there I can't believe for a minute that
01:08:01 there I can't believe for a minute that we had 50,000 blackards I mean that is a lot of blackards um I would have thought it's probably 5,000 would be the the real figure there I mean if if you had
01:08:13 real figure there I mean if if you had 50,000 that would be virtually one for every demonstrator which seems not boat not just unlikely but seems slightly pointless given lots of other people
01:08:29 pointless given lots of other people might have had their own own placards um no I think privately we thought it was much bigger than 20,000 I think I was
01:08:40 much bigger than 20,000 I think I was expecting I remember I went to Derby the week before to speak at a college there um and Derby you know wasn't particularly known for big vibrant socialist organization but there was a full meeting they got a coach down from Darby mainly of young
01:08:52 coach down from Darby mainly of young people we knew it was going to be a very very big demonstration now assessing how big a demonstration is going to be is very difficult I mean you obviously know how many coaches there
01:09:06 obviously know how many coaches there are going to be but other than that it's quite difficult to to do um but we did know it was going to be very big so I don't accept the 20,000 that we believe privately I mean maybe people said this to people maybe said don't get too don't get your hopes up too much that it will
01:09:19 get your hopes up too much that it will be much bigger but in reality I think we thought it would be much closer to 50,000 than 20,000 and had there been discussion about what would happen if
01:09:32 discussion about what would happen if the police banned the event well I think that we we knew that the police might want to ban the event we knew the that there wasn't agreement at um at that stage about the about the root of the
01:09:44 stage about the about the root of the March and so on so of course we would have considered it but usually when a March is
01:09:53 March is banned the it doesn't stop people as as again this report says it doesn't stop people Gathering or intending to gather I mean it might stop people coming from Derby but it won't stop people from coming locally so there would be a
01:10:05 coming locally so there would be a situation if they said for example you can't go within you know two miles of the Bookshop then there would have been some sort of protest at the perimeter of that which is one of the things that
01:10:16 that which is one of the things that happen for example when you have these big demonstrations against you know the G8 or something as we had in Scotland some years ago that people go to the perimeter fence and go as close as they can to the banned
01:10:36 area thank you could we go into the next paragraph furthermore the ANL and other anti-racist organizations have been
01:10:49 anti-racist organizations have been inspired by recent victories over the BMP in East London following the BNP Council election success in mwall anti-racists who have hitherto intimidated who were hitherto intimidated by and Afraid of the much vaunted BMP have seen that the fascist can be outnumbered and chased off the streets the prospect of thousands of
01:11:05 streets the prospect of thousands of anti-fascists gathered together on mass will strengthen the resolve of the demonstrators to march on the BMP headquarters whether this is banned or
01:11:17 headquarters whether this is banned or not and to respond to police measures to enforce the ban or to protect the BNP Bookshop with violence it should be stressed that even elements within the S swp ANL which have previously shunned violent confrontation are prepared for a
01:11:36 violent confrontation are prepared for a fight this time as an added complication there is likely to be a large number of nons swp well-meaning ANL members who will be panicked as and when violence erupts is it
01:11:47 erupts is it right that even elements within the swp ANL which had previously shunned violent
01:11:58 ANL which had previously shunned violent confrontation were preparing for a fight on this occasion what I think people were determined to do was to close down the Bookshop they wanted to have a mass demonstration they wanted it to be a
01:12:13 demonstration they wanted it to be a demonstration which went past the uh the headquarters they wanted it to do all those sorts of things I don't I I don't recognize this idea that people who previously shunned violent confrontation that prepared for a fight people did want a fight to be able to
01:12:24 people did want a fight to be able to march down that route they did want to be able to close the Bookshop down they did think it was wrong that the BMP could intimidate people on the streets of East London or on the streets of
01:12:41 of East London or on the streets of Southeast London so all those things are true but this idea that suddenly people have gone from being we don't want any violent confrontations and now we're going to have a physical fight I just don't think that's uh that's the way it happened I also don't quite understand
01:12:55 happened I also don't quite understand the I don't the following sentence seems to me a bit of a nonse Secor that there'll be a large number of well-meaning ANL members who will be panicked well as and when and so should we have violence shouldn't we have violence it doesn't really it doesn't really make any of this clear I mean as
01:13:13 really make any of this clear I mean as I understand it the insinuation is that uh there was a recognition that there was going to be violence but not everybody was in on the plan and there were therefore going to be some people who would be surprised and panicked is that what happened no
01:13:31 panicked is that what happened no because I don't think I think everybody who went on that demonstration knew it would be heavily pleased I think everybody who went on it knew that it would be a demonstration that the police didn't want us to have they knew all that regardless of their politics and regardless of where they came from
01:13:45 regardless of where they came from politically but I think there was a very strong feeling among the swp but also among many other people including the um as they described well-meaning ANL
01:13:57 as they described well-meaning ANL members that they this was something they had to do and it was very very important for them to do and there wasn't a plan by a small number of s swp to ferment violence which would then Panic the ANL members that would have been an irresponsible thing to do I mean
01:14:13 been an irresponsible thing to do I mean you can't take people on a demonstration and not want to make sure that they're safe and not want to make sure that they're they're looked after you know you had all these people you had families you had people coming from all around the country and it descended into
01:14:27 around the country and it descended into a complete attack by the police which no doubt will'll will'll come on to but it was a it was a very very frightening demonstration and in that situation the last thing that we wanted to do was to
01:14:44 last thing that we wanted to do was to make to create a situation where people would be panicked that would have been quite wrong could we move now to the next page page three to the third paragraph down
01:14:55 please amongst the demonst rators will be sizable contingents of militant activists whose intention is to confront police these will take any opportunity
01:15:07 police these will take any opportunity to inflame the situation and to provoke violence the militant activists will include members of militant and other welld disciplined groups which are capable of effective action the total
01:15:19 capable of effective action the total number of these militants will probably be in the region of 3,000 was there a sense that there might be significant numbers of what I might term hotthe heads well I don't think
01:15:31 term hotthe heads well I don't think calling them hote heads is quite right when it says militant activists yes this is true of a whole number of left groups and a whole number of individuals but the idea that they went on it with the
01:15:47 the idea that they went on it with the intention to confront the police is not actually why people went on that demonstration they went on the demonstration as a statement against the BMP as a statement in favor of closing down headquarters and that was the aim of the operation and and you know th
01:16:00 of the operation and and you know th this kind of sense all the time from these reports that people are always just outside agitators that they're always doing these sorts of things I
01:16:12 always doing these sorts of things I mean if you look I mean historians will just regard this stuff with Incredible you know they'll find it amazing because this is It's always how major social movements are portrayed it's how the
01:16:23 movements are portrayed it's how the suffragettes were portrayed that they outside agitated or there people who are militant who want to cause trouble actually there are a whole range of people in these protests who have different reasons for being there but
01:16:37 different reasons for being there but all of them are united in that they're there for the purpose of the demonstration not as a means of having a fight with the police or anybody else uh thank you could we take that down please and could we have up
01:16:49 down please and could we have up 33058 which is tab 41 of your bundle sir
01:17:04 this is moving into early October now this this report is dated the 5th of October it's also on the theme of preparations for the demonstration uh if we could start please with uh paragraph
01:17:20 one we see the report is directed to estimated numbers uh reporting the number of coaches uh uh that are being arranged and so forth and if we move now to paragraph
01:17:32 paragraph two it describes how those numbers are said to be being obtained s swp branches are recruiting the supporters from local ethnic
01:17:44 ethnic organizations many of whom resent the party but will accept the cheap transport trade unions and colleges the party is pushing the event as the biggest anti-racist demonstration since the 19
01:17:58 the 19 1970s another important aspect of the campaign is recruitment through ANL stalls events meetings and leafleting sessions on Friday the 8th of October
01:18:14 sessions on Friday the 8th of October the ANL intends to distribute 150,000 leaflets in London alone seeking support for the March this portrays um all the stops being pulled out to maximize numbers is that fair a
01:18:26 out to maximize numbers is that fair a fair point to make we wanted to get as many people on it as possible and then if we go to the next paragraph the frenetic campaigning is bringing to light some interesting
01:18:40 bringing to light some interesting developments within the ANL swp usually the day-to-day running of the ANL is left Rahul Patel and CLA dington of late s swp Central Committee Member Julie Waton has been taking a greater part in
01:18:52 Waton has been taking a greater part in such mandane activities and has brought in extra volunteer helpers to supplement the usual staff of privacy privacy privacy and privacy the ANL has gained
01:19:13 privacy and privacy the ANL has gained 2,000 new members since the BNP election victory in mil wall but despite wildly enthusiastic press reports planted by the swp it remains in deep financial trouble all the ANL has is riding on a powerful showing on the 16th of
01:19:30 powerful showing on the 16th of October was there a sense that the credibility of the ANL was at stake no I don't think in the sense it's all riding on a powerful show we knew we wanted to have a very big and hopefully
01:19:41 wanted to have a very big and hopefully successful demonstration on uh the 16th of of October but the idea that the ANL would have been finished if there wasn't going to be a powerful showing isn't
01:19:52 going to be a powerful showing isn't right plus even the lower assessments which in some of the other reports show that people thought there would be 15 20 25,000 which would have been a perfectly
01:20:08 25,000 which would have been a perfectly decent demonstration so I don't think uh it was worried about that and I don't quite understand about the Deep financial trouble I mean most left campaigning organizations are not you
01:20:20 campaigning organizations are not you know well financed a lot of the time so um but it wasn't particularly in deep financial trouble to the best of my knowledge um in terms of the level of
01:20:34 knowledge um in terms of the level of leadership is it right that Julie Watson Central Committee Member was taking a greater role than normal I I should think so yes because she would she was the Secretary of the
01:20:49 she would she was the Secretary of the ANL but also if she left the day-to-day work to other people some of the time that would be in a period of less intense organizing and work now obviously as we've just seen in the runup to Welling there was a lot of work going on of booking coaches of doing
01:21:01 going on of booking coaches of doing leaflets of doing all those sorts of things so yes she would have been uh if we move on to paragraph four
01:21:19 please another s swp Central Committee Member Chris bambury has been drafted in to lead the ANL at demonstrations leading up to the big one it seems that WP policy toward Street activity is
01:21:31 WP policy toward Street activity is being blurred the swp officially will not incite Street violence whereas committed ANL activists like privacy and privacy both of whom are reformed
01:21:43 privacy both of whom are reformed fascists believe that the BNP can only be beaten by physical combat it would appear that bambury at least in private shares these sentiments which directly contradict swp policy it seems likely
01:21:59 contradict swp policy it seems likely that Julie Waton has been sent to the ANL to temper some of bambury's very noticeable and public deviations from the party line exhibited at recent
01:22:10 the party line exhibited at recent demonstrations had Mr bambury very noticeably uh and publicly deviated from the party line on
01:22:22 the party line on violence not rec demonstration not to my knowledge and I think that you know Chris was on the Central Committee I was Julie was so I would have been
01:22:34 I was Julie was so I would have been party to any discussions they had in general terms not on the day-to-day running but I would have been party to those and I would have known if he was saying something very very different from um from anybody else I think this
01:22:51 from um from anybody else I think this is yet again the the attempt is really to say the swp officially will not um inight Street violence um whereas well I mean I think this idea that we would
01:23:02 mean I think this idea that we would have been influenced by two ANL activist both of whom were reform fascists is simply not that that that really would not have happened and I don't think that's uh that makes sense that it you know when when you look at
01:23:21 that it you know when when you look at this I think you have to say that Chris bamry was not doing anything different from Julie in any fundamental way or from any any body else and indeed even this report says that Chris bamry at least in private shares these sentiments well who has he shared these with um
01:23:36 well who has he shared these with um what has he actually said it doesn't say and it um and certainly Julie was not sent to the annl to temper some of his so-called noticeable and public deviations because as I recall it she
01:23:47 deviations because as I recall it she was the person responsible for the ANL he did a whole amount of work around the demonstration and maybe other things as well but he wasn't um organizationally to the best of my
01:24:01 organizationally to the best of my recollection part of the of the ANL sort of structure if you like did you ever hear Mr banur um in the
01:24:08 the runup to the demonstration express any violent sentiments no I didn't I the whole point
01:24:24 sentiments no I didn't I the whole point I'm sorry to sort of Labor the point but the whole point was we wanted a mass demonstration we wanted to close down the Bookshop we didn't believe that the
01:24:35 the Bookshop we didn't believe that the fascist should be able to operate openly on the streets all of those were things that everybody in the swp shared there wasn't a a difference uh in any of those sorts of things so no I didn't and yet again we've got Bamber is fascinated by
01:24:53 again we've got Bamber is fascinated by try's leadership of the Red Army well as I said earlier the idea that there it's comparable one demonstration in in Welling with um with what went on for two years in in Russia just I just think I think this is very very slanted reporting I think
01:25:05 very very slanted reporting I think um this guy has a a problem with Chris
01:25:14 um this guy has a a problem with Chris banry which I don't know what it's about but he's constantly trying to make out that he's somehow different from the rest of the S swp leadership and actually Chris was a very sort of powerful speaker and uh he was quite
01:25:26 powerful speaker and uh he was quite gregarious person at that level he was also extremely loyal and disciplined about how he operated within uh the S WP so I can assure you he wouldn't have
01:25:37 so I can assure you he wouldn't have done anything which broke from what the rest of us wanted him to do could we move to the next paragraph please it is an Open Secret among
01:25:49 please it is an Open Secret among Central ANL activists that the object of the exercise on the 16th of October is to attack an attempt to destroy destroy the BNP Bookshop in Welling many are urging Rahul Patel to State this
01:26:05 urging Rahul Patel to State this objective publicly who has so far wisely declined what is clear is that the hardliners at the heart of the ANL have won a commitment by leaders to allow and to encourage a violent confrontation
01:26:20 to encourage a violent confrontation with police on the day this is because the ANL having committed itself to cooperation with the youth Against Racism in Europe will be unable to survive as a viable anti-fascist
01:26:31 survive as a viable anti-fascist organization which will attract members and therefore money unless it is seen to be at least as militant as the other participating groups at the demonstration on the 16th of
01:26:46 demonstration on the 16th of October if it were to restrain itself the ANL would lose its position as a leading anti-nazi group The ANL has by cooperating in this event abandoned the non-confrontational middle
01:26:57 abandoned the non-confrontational middle ground to its rival anti-racist Alliance which is committed to the removal of the BMP by
01:27:05 BMP by peaceful
01:27:17 means was it an Open Secret that the Bookshop was to be attacked and destroyed not only wasn't it an Open Secret it's completely untrue it's completely
01:27:34 completely untrue the aim of the operation was not to destroy the Bookshop did you hear anybody in the runup to the demonstration itself Express The View that the Bookshop should be physically attacked no I
01:27:45 should be physically attacked no I didn't and to be honest if they had said that to me I would have said well that's not a possibility if you look at the picture that you've shown of the Bookshop it was actually like a bunker
01:27:57 Bookshop it was actually like a bunker it was heavily reinforced there was no way that you could do anything like that it just simply it simply wasn't realistic and you would I would say to people two things if anybody had said
01:28:13 people two things if anybody had said that to me I would say firstly it's not physically possible but secondly it's not politically desirable because politically as I hope I've tried to get
01:28:29 politically as I hope I've tried to get across um today the whole aim of the WP was to build mass organizations was to build much much bigger organizations than just ourselves so that large numbers of people would demonstrate and would do all those sorts of things and the idea of going and physically destroying the Bookshop was quite anathema to those sorts of ideas it
01:28:44 anathema to those sorts of ideas it simply wasn't um what we were about doing and we recognized this we recognized it earlier with our break politically from the people who did want to do some of these sorts of things and we would very very much um
01:28:57 we would very very much um committed to not going along that road at any
01:29:02 at any stage could we go to the next paragraph please this is the first mention of something which is going to come back as a theme for a little while now Central ANL activists are already
01:29:15 now Central ANL activists are already planning tactics for life after the big demonstration they anticipate that the BNP will be seriously damaged by events in Welling on the 16th of October and the ANL will be well placed to kick the
01:29:30 the ANL will be well placed to kick the BMP whilst it is down a network of about 70 hitters which can be called upon to defend provocative ANL Street activity
01:29:45 defend provocative ANL Street activity against right-wing opposition has been proposed and has been reasonably well received other plans are being
01:29:59 received other plans are being discussed had at that stage anybody body to your knowledge proposed setting up a network of hitters I've never heard that word in this context before I read these um these documents it's not a word that I
01:30:11 these documents it's not a word that I ever heard anybody in the swp refer to and it's not a word I can imagine that any of them would have referred to so
01:30:22 any of them would have referred to so that's the first point the second point is that actually again it wasn't our idea of how we should confront the B BMP we did think that the BMP would be seriously damaged by events
01:30:35 BMP would be seriously damaged by events in Welling and that was because the size of the demonstration would have been overwhelming compared to what the BMP could get and that was very very important we did think we be we' be able to continue to campaign against them
01:30:48 to continue to campaign against them afterwards and we would be able to go much much more on the offensive politically but the idea that that would take the form of 70 people going around
01:31:01 take the form of 70 people going around um engaged in um Street activity against against fascist is just simply not the way that we thought it should go taking away the the the label hitter had there been any discussion about how
01:31:17 had there been any discussion about how the swp was going to protect its members from violent fascists what we've always done and what we continue to do and this isn't just with fascist it comes up at
01:31:28 isn't just with fascist it comes up at other um in other instances uh some of the time we have a very serious commitment to proper stewarding of demonstrations and to um having people who are responsible for making sure the demonstration goes in the way that we
01:31:39 demonstration goes in the way that we want it to go and of course one of the things that that would be would involve is that you would try to protect your members and the demonstration uh from attacks by the far
01:31:53 demonstration uh from attacks by the far right or anybody else but that is a very different thing from talking about a network of people who could be called upon to defend provocative Street activity it's completely different it's a completely different concept
01:32:09 actually were there discussions at this time when you are clearly going head-to-head with violent right- wiers
01:32:17 wiers about
01:32:20 about stewarding or Defending Your members in any other away from physical attack well this amounts to the same thing that would be that you were defending them from physical attack I mean we had a
01:32:31 from physical attack I mean we had a whole number of people who were attacked we've had um attacks on our buildings at various points I mean not just in this
01:32:42 various points I mean not just in this period but going back to the 70s and so on we've had uh we've had different attacks and we've always tried to do it in a way which obviously tries to keep people safe but which also does look at it in a political way rather than just
01:32:57 it in a political way rather than just simply some kind of titp fortat fighting which what we understood from the late '70s was this was absolutely the wrong tactic to develop and it was completely counterproductive was there any move in the Autumn of 1993 to
01:33:15 the Autumn of 1993 to identify people who might be more physically able to defend the swp from Attack we didn't really approach it like that I think as I said earlier Julie was about 5 foot
01:33:28 I said earlier Julie was about 5 foot tall she was a very small woman she was absolutely key to our steing operation um she wasn't you know we didn't think about it in terms of we want people who can defend themselves we talked about it
01:33:41 can defend themselves we talked about it in terms of certainly physically helping to defend people but also in terms of a political campaign against the BMP which was both by far the most important thing
01:33:55 was both by far the most important thing and the Welling demonstration was a move to towards doing that and actually did result the following year in Beckley Council closing down the Bookshop and we regarded that as a success I think it was a great success can we now go to 43s six tab b42
01:34:26 sir we're now move moving to the 8th of
01:34:29 8th of October
01:34:31 October uh this is a short but important report at a recent closed meeting of the Socialist Workers Party Branch leadership of the six Hackney District
01:34:47 leadership of the six Hackney District branches Central Committee Member Chris bambury in the presence of fellow Central Committee Member Lindsay German addressed the comrades present on the issue of building for the 16th of no of
01:35:03 issue of building for the 16th of no of October demonstration to close down the British national party Bookshop in Welling he spoke in no uncertain terms of his intention to tear the building
01:35:15 of his intention to tear the building down and that no one was going to stop him he believed that there were many others who thought as he did and that the party must obtain gain their
01:35:27 the party must obtain gain their support was there a closed meeting of s swp Branch leadership of the six Hackney District
01:35:37 District branches shortly before the 8th of October well the will have been they were called District committees and they
01:35:53 were called District committees and they happened on a regular basis all over the country and were you and Mr bambur both present
01:35:54 present I don't remember being at it but I'm I'm I did many many meetings at the time and it's possible we were both present because although slightly unusual I
01:36:05 because although slightly unusual I would have thought but maybe we felt that we wanted to get more of a mobilization from Hackney so that's why we both went along uh did Mr bambury say in no
01:36:19 along uh did Mr bambury say in no uncertain terms that he intended to tear the building down or anything remotely like that well I as I say I don't remember being at the meeting so I
01:36:32 don't remember being at the meeting so I don't remember whether he said it or not but let me just point out that I think if he or anybody else came into a room and said to me I'm going to tear the
01:36:43 and said to me I'm going to tear the building down you know Brick by Brick or whatever and no one is going to stop me I would have regarded that as hyperbole I mean it's simply everybody would know
01:37:00 I mean it's simply everybody would know he's not going to tear the building down um on his own and that no one was going to stop him it's just it's obviously that he's making the point that the Bookshop should be closed he believed there were many others who thought as he did and it's absolutely true there were many other people who wanted the Bookshop to close and who saw it as a
01:37:15 Bookshop to close and who saw it as a source of violent and racist attacks but that clearly I mean you've got to be very gullible to think that's a literal statement of fact haven't you I mean he was a powerful oror wasn't he he's a good speaker yeah but in a district
01:37:29 good speaker yeah but in a district committee there's only limited oratory possibilities you know it's not like speaking at a big Rally or something I'm understanding your evidence to be that he might have said this but he wasn't to be taken literally and I don't believe
01:37:44 be taken literally and I don't believe that anybody apart from hn 78 would have taken it literally and I doubt that he did to tell the truth I mean it's just one of those things that people say in particular flourishes if you like which
01:37:57 particular flourishes if you like which which everybody will know does not mean exactly what it says isn't there a problem though with using that sort of language that some people might take it literally of course that may be a problem but if you look at
01:38:11 that may be a problem but if you look at the second paragraph what does he what's the conclusion from this District committee you've got to go around schools further education colleges blah blah the local Council um and you're going to forge links with Turkish
01:38:26 going to forge links with Turkish organizations which is about a leaflet giving out leaflets talking to trade unions I mean it doesn't exactly match with the idea that uh he's going to physically tear it
01:38:40 physically tear it down can we go to the uh next page of this
01:38:42 this please Source comment it is now Beyond doubt that the hardliners in the anls swp who want Street confrontation with the BNP have
01:38:55 Street confrontation with the BNP have won the internal policy battle for the course of action on the 16th of October the official position is now to drive through police lines and attempt to
01:39:07 through police lines and attempt to destroy the BMP Bookshop this position has been reiterated in a coded fashion in the week's party notes the weekly information circular for S SMP members
01:39:25 information circular for S SMP members which states on the 16th we know where the Nazis are going to be and we are going to confront them in their
01:39:36 bunker which part if any of that paragraph do you agree with well it's I don't agree that it's beyond doubt the hardliners so-called
01:39:51 beyond doubt the hardliners so-called who want have won internal policy battle there was one policy from the S swp and it was absolutely clear now the the statement from the circular says we know where the Nazis are going to be and we're going to confront them in their bunker seems to me that's
01:40:03 in their bunker seems to me that's absolutely obvious what it's saying there is that um I mean the bunker is obviously a reference to Hitler's bunker as well as theirs and it's what it's
01:40:15 as well as theirs and it's what it's saying is we are going to directly go to their headquarters and we are going to be outside the headquarters actually if the March had been allowed to go down there that it would have surrounded the headquarters as it would have done all of those sorts of things so I think
01:40:27 of those sorts of things so I think that's um I think it's very clear that is not a coded thing that we're going to tear down the the headquarters it is saying that we are going to physically go to where the um where the
01:40:40 go to where the um where the headquarters are and we are going to confront them by being there in tens of thousands rather than uh in a few hundred um and the official position actually if we look at what happens on
01:40:56 actually if we look at what happens on the day the offical position was not to drive through police lines and attempt to destroy the BMP Bookshop people wanted to do that they wanted to go on that road route but actually in the end of the day what happened when they did
01:41:07 of the day what happened when they did get to Welling was that Julie Watterson said they the demonstrators should sit down now sitting down is not physically confronting driving through police lines or anything else could we take that down please and
01:41:20 else could we take that down please and could we have up uh 43s nine so that's B
01:41:36 43 this document is also the 8th of October uh and we're back on hitters the idea an idea proposed by certain members of the ANL national
01:41:50 certain members of the ANL national office staff during a recent internal meeting regarding the formation of a contact Network work to enable the ANL
01:42:04 contact Network work to enable the ANL to swiftly assemble 70 Street Fighters for security purposes appears to have been sanctioned by an individual or individuals within the controlling Socialist Workers Party swp Central Committee it was stated that this unit would by no means be squaded in
01:42:19 would by no means be squaded in mentality and would not necessarily only consist of ANL swp members as it was mentioned that for example members of Youth Against Racism in Europe could also play a part it is intended that
01:42:31 also play a part it is intended that this would be drawn up of those quote who would not run away when confronted by
01:42:43 by Nazis stopping there if a decision of the
01:42:48 the kind asserted there had been made would you as a member of the swp's Central Committee have EXP expected to have been aware of it it doesn't seem to me that there was a decision made it says there
01:43:07 there was a decision made it says there was an idea proposed by certain members um and it goes it then goes on clearly to say that it was stated this unit
01:43:16 to say that it was stated this unit would not be uh squaded because that was one of the things that people were um were worried about but I I would say categorically that this was an idea which would not would not have been accepted and was not accepted and I as far as as I recall wasn't discussed by the Central Committee itself and they
01:43:27 the Central Committee itself and they would not have supported this kind of approach I I can't obviously comment on whether it actually was said or not but it it says here it's an idea yeah it says an idea at the top and then a few
01:43:40 says an idea at the top and then a few lines down it says appears to have been sanctioned appear to have been sanctioned by an individual well what I was driving at if there had been any sanction would you have expected to have been aware of it that's my first
01:43:54 been aware of it that's my first question yes I would expect to have been aware of it which is why I think there wasn't a San by anybody that I think answers my second question
01:43:58 question um thank you uh I think we can take that down now and move on to tab 44
01:44:14 33764 I beg your pardon uh 33024
01:44:34 and this one's a little bit difficult to read
01:44:44 um just below the bit you've blown up there's um a date I'd just like to have that
01:44:54 please thank you I think it says a 12th of October 1993 there so 4 days before the demonstration if we could return to the text You' blown up please mark
01:45:05 please mark meta of the
01:45:16 meta of the hfc is expecting up to 100 anti-fascists from Holland and Germany to come to the anti BNP demonstration on Saturday he says that these will be seasoned fights ERS who are used to physical confrontations meta also believes that
01:45:35 confrontations meta also believes that about 50 members of anti-fascist action AFA will come to London from Liverpool for the occasion the hfc thinks that the BNP will not try to oppose the march in Welling but that it will attack either the anti-racist
01:45:47 will attack either the anti-racist alliance March in Westminster or the anarchist book fair at Conway Hall meta also thinks that BMP supporters will be in Brick Lane after the main event on
01:45:58 in Brick Lane after the main event on Saturday evening he will be attempting to persuade as many of the Liverpool and European contingents as possible to go
01:46:13 European contingents as possible to go to bricklane on Saturday night and again on Sunday morning to confront the fascists did you hear anything at all
01:46:26 you hear anything at all about D Dutch and German anti-fascists who were seasoned Fighters planning to attend on the
01:46:37 Fighters planning to attend on the 16th no I didn't and or certainly not to the best of my recollection and as far as I can see they don't have anything to do with the S swp were their seasoned Dutch and German
01:46:54 swp were their seasoned Dutch and German anti-fascist Fighters there on the day I don't know I don't know there may well have been if but I didn't I mean on a big demonstration there are all sorts of people that you might not come across and certainly in Welling there were a huge number of people I didn't come
01:47:07 huge number of people I didn't come across because there was such chaos so I have no idea whether they were there or
01:47:14 not thank you could we take that down and have up please 33764
01:47:39 this is also um dat of the 12th of October uh this is a report we can see from the bottom left of a different officer hn 101 it says swp leaders confident that the anti-nazi league ANL will have be sufficiently strong on the day will
01:47:53 sufficiently strong on the day will allow the party to be represented in its own right on Saturday this means that there will be separate swp presence with its own
01:48:08 separate swp presence with its own leadership banners Etc in command on the day will be Chris bambury who is eager for a
01:48:18 confrontation is it right first of all that there were separate ANL and swp presences on the day I I really um I'm not sure because
01:48:31 day I I really um I'm not sure because this suggests a contingent of s swp uh on the
01:48:32 on the demonstration and I don't think I'm not sure that that actually happened it may you know quite often happened on demonstrations that you did have a an S swp contingent to
01:48:45 you did have a an S swp contingent to promote the paper and promote particular slogans and and so on I'm not sure it did happen on that day and certainly um s VP members were all over the place on
01:48:59 s VP members were all over the place on that demonstration because of the way in which it was attacked so I I couldn't say for certain about that um we've seen a number of documents which talk about uh Mr bambury's
01:49:10 which talk about uh Mr bambury's appetite for violence in various expressed in various ways this one uses the
01:49:18 the word
01:49:21 word confrontation except does doesn't necessarily connote violence would you have described Mr bambury as eager for a confrontation of some kind well it
01:49:35 confrontation of some kind well it depends what it means if it means that he wants to be able to get to the Bookshop and um to demonstrate in the way that we wanted to do then maybe if
01:49:47 way that we wanted to do then maybe if it means he's eager for a confrontation either by the allegation that he was going to single-handedly tear the building down or that he wanted to have a with the police well no I'd say that wasn't the truth I mean what we wanted to do was to weaken and ultimately
01:50:00 to do was to weaken and ultimately destroy the BMP that was the aim of the operation and that was certainly at the Forefront of his mind um we the rest of the document May shed a little bit of light on what the officer understood
01:50:15 light on what the officer understood because it goes on to say swp members have been led to understand that the route of the March will take them within 300 yards of the British national party headquarters and it is their
01:50:26 party headquarters and it is their feeling that this will be close enough
01:50:37 feeling that this will be close enough for them to make a final assault on the premises which police will be helpless to prevent given the mood of the demonstrators and their
01:50:50 numbers could you help us at that stage four days before the March what was your understanding of of the route that the demonstration would take and in particular would it get to within 300 yards or thereabouts of the Bookshop what we
01:51:03 thereabouts of the Bookshop what we wanted originally was a route which went past the Bookshop now it became increasingly clear that the police weren't going to allow that and I think by that stage they'd already put a
01:51:14 by that stage they'd already put a section 12 on the on the demonstration which prevented people from um uh deviating from the prescribed route that they that they gave them um
01:51:27 they that they gave them um to be perfectly honest with you I don't know I don't know the geography there very well I know that at the end the final route was that we would have to turn left uh into Lodge Hill but that
01:51:39 turn left uh into Lodge Hill but that that as it turned out on the day which people were very unhappy about they didn't want to do it and it says here that youth Against Racism actually wanted to have protests about police station at police stations to protest about it beforehand people were very
01:51:51 about it beforehand people were very unhappy they couldn't go to to the um uh to the headquarters but as it turned out we weren't even allowed to go on the
01:52:02 we weren't even allowed to go on the route that the police had um prescribed for us so it was um it was very unsatisfactory so the question of um whether SBP members thought they were going to be within 300 yards I think um
01:52:14 going to be within 300 yards I think um I think that lodg hill was a bit further away from the Bookshop than that but I I as I say I'm not sufficiently apprised of the geography around
01:52:31 of the geography around there here we have a second officer reporting that there was to be an assault on the premises well was that in fact what was planned it says a final assault on the premises I mean this comes from the officers it's nowhere in any publicly
01:52:45 officers it's nowhere in any publicly stated it wasn't something that people uh talked about it was people wanted to close down
01:52:58 close down the the headquarters um and I'm afraid I think that with I think there's a combination of wanting to make it look as though there was more projected violence than was the case uh a
01:53:13 violence than was the case uh a combination of them wanting to show that um they had information which nobody else had and I also have to say a
01:53:21 else had and I also have to say a misunderstanding of our politics which I think comes through time and time again in in many of these reports that they don't understand what is meant by we want to close down the Bookshop they immediately see it as something which is a small number of people engaged in
01:53:32 a small number of people engaged in physical violence well that wasn't the aim of the operation wasas is one of the officers suggests a tactic whereby senior members
01:53:45 tactic whereby senior members of the swp were protected from being implicated in plans for violence which actually did
01:54:03 which actually did exist no not that I know of where sorry is that in this bit no it's one of the it's one of the officers alleges it's not from this particular doc yeah well I mean I think they allege a load of things which are very dubious you know about these sorts of things so would now be a convenient
01:54:17 things so would now be a convenient moment to take our mid-afternoon break certainly 15 minutes
01:54:51 yeah
02:08:50 e e
02:09:36 Mr Warrington you have a short intermission I think yes before we proceed with the witness um sir as you're aware um towards the conclusion of hn 56 is evidence
02:09:52 yesterday uh a note was uh made by the witness uh and may I read a form of words uh that relates to the content of that note for the purpose of the record
02:10:04 that note for the purpose of the record uh which is as follows the note written by hn 56 yesterday refer to at line 10 page 216 of the transcript included the following names
02:10:16 following names hn11
02:10:18 hn11 hn12
02:10:20 hn12 hn10 h H
02:10:21 hn10 h H n25 hn 90 and hn7 I'm
02:10:32 hn7 I'm grateful Mr B thank you um can we move now to the 16th of October itself it might help if we start with some maps uh so these sir are your tabs c2a
02:10:50 37118 we've got extracts from two different
02:10:52 different contemporaneous a to Zs so the cover of the first one which I
02:11:05 Zs so the cover of the first one which I might describe as the row low resolution map is here on page one we could go to page three please um this page I am not displaying just because it shows some of the nicest walking in Kent just outside London but
02:11:20 walking in Kent just outside London but because it has the date on the bottom of the page
02:11:23 the page 1993 if we could go to page four
02:11:37 1993 if we could go to page four please uh this is uh Southeast London and if we could just orientate ourselves
02:11:42 ourselves approximately in the middle of the page you will see Welling do you have that yeah if we go directly north of Welling we see TS me don't
02:12:02 we right at the Top If you you'll have to go back to where you
02:12:04 where you were TS me is immediately south of the
02:12:14 river that was where Roland Adams was murdered isn't it not very far north of Welling if we
02:12:27 it not very far north of Welling if we come back out and we look to the west of Welling uh we will see Elum just west and Elum stations a little bit South do you see that where Steven Lawrence was murdered isn't
02:12:39 murdered isn't it uh we have uh Welling station and just um to the going up
02:12:56 station and just um to the going up north from just after Welling station is upper Wickham Lane the BMP Bookshop is on upper Wickham Lane isn't it yeah and perhaps if we uh move now on
02:13:12 yeah and perhaps if we uh move now on that page perhaps we can also follow the railway lines there are two railway lines running through this part of Southeast London one is the one that runs through woolich plumsted Abby wood badier irith
02:13:26 woolich plumsted Abby wood badier irith and out to Dartford that way presumably lots of people got to the start of the march by traveling to plumstead station
02:13:40 march by traveling to plumstead station on that line maybe yes uh the other line is the one uh that comes through from Elum and go through Welling Beckley Heath barnhurst and then on to Dartford
02:13:53 Heath barnhurst and then on to Dartford and Welling railway station is actually physically the closest to the BMP Bookshop isn't it if we could go now to page
02:14:04 seven and this is the higher resolution
02:14:15 map again we can see from the bottom of the page that it's
02:14:19 1993 and if we could go to page 10
02:14:43 please um right at the top of the page where the letter B is there is a
02:14:51 junction uh on this resolution of map uh the junction is between upper Wickham Lane and Lodge Hill with Oak Hampton
02:15:03 Lane and Lodge Hill with Oak Hampton cresant as well do you see the junction yeah is that the junction where essentially the March met a police police barriers
02:15:19 police barriers blocking Wickam Lane to the south lodge Hill to the north and Oak Campton cresant to the east that's right right and we'll be coming to that in due course with the plumsted
02:15:33 course with the plumsted cemetery uh to the uh left of Marchers as they were moving up upper Wickham lane from
02:15:39 lane from plumstead yeah perhaps if we go back a page to page
02:15:51 nine and we should pick up there um the beginning of the March if we concentrate on the lower quarter of that uh
02:15:59 page we've got Wickham Lane coming from plumstead High Street
02:16:12 coming from plumstead High Street through to the junction that I've just referred to and is it right that demonstrators met um just at the bottom of that lane at winds common yes that's right wind common was where it started which is uh immediately to the
02:16:28 started which is uh immediately to the left of where it says Wickam uh in the largest capital
02:16:35 letters uh if we could perhaps keep up page
02:16:36 page 10
02:16:43 please um it might help also just if we if we could really expand up upper Wickham Lane the section that is close to Welling station
02:17:00 um that and just a little bit north I'm looking at the numbers the road numbers the Bookshop was at 154 wasn't it yeah and we can see 64 um number 64
02:17:19 it yeah and we can see 64 um number 64 marked just at the end of the word upper and 240 marked just after the m in Wickham was the Bookshop very approximately looking at the side roads around where Church Street and East Street are I I guess so I mean I'm not an
02:17:32 are I I guess so I mean I'm not an expert if you're not able to say just say so thank
02:17:43 you could you help us you told us before the break that the by the time the police had made the section 12 order the route was going to involve
02:17:51 involve you going up Wickham Lane but then having to divert left and not being able to to walk past the Bookshop uh the actual route that you
02:18:07 Bookshop uh the actual route that you took and perhaps if we could scroll out a bit
02:18:14 a bit please when you got to the top of upper Wickham Lane and to the junction with Lodge Hill a no Campton cresant you've given evidence uh that um
02:18:26 um all three of those exits from that Junction were blocked that's right where did the demonstration go well it wanted to go up Lodge Hill
02:18:39 go well it wanted to go up Lodge Hill but that was blocked so the people at the front obviously couldn't go back I mean you couldn't go backwards there were too many people I'll come to the
02:18:53 were too many people I'll come to the detail the the detail of the disorder in a moment but I'm just instr at the moment when people disperse
02:18:56 disperse ultimately are does is anybody anybody able to go down Lodge Hill or do people essentially have to retreat back the way they came no uh what happened was I I
02:19:09 they came no uh what happened was I I can only speak from my own experience obviously people had different experiences but when we got to that point it was absolute Mayhem it was already blocked um I my myself had to
02:19:22 already blocked um I my myself had to kind of I mean people were falling over walls they were being pushed over walls um I remember going through the cemetery I remember it very well and when I got
02:19:35 I remember it very well and when I got to the other side um it was like a kind of medieval battle the whole you know people were sitting on the side of the Hill there was a lot of people with wounds and injuries and with blood on
02:19:46 wounds and injuries and with blood on their faces and on their clothes and all that kind of thing and essentially people just had to make their way and I I don't know this part of London at all well people had to make their way to I think I must have gone further up
02:20:01 think I must have gone further up through the cemetery over this hill and then further up to uh I think it probably was the top of Lodge Hill and then got on the road at the top there and somehow find found a station I mean
02:20:16 and somehow find found a station I mean people were going some people would have gone back people at the very back may have just turned back that wasn't an option for most people because they thought they could get through to Lodge Hill that was completely blocked off to them by the police from the very beginning so it was a trap there was no way out for people um on any of those
02:20:33 way out for people um on any of those roads okay I'm going to dial back now to the start of the day can you recall broadly when you arrived and how you got
02:20:47 there I must have come by train um I would have got there probably an hour before the starting point um
02:20:51 point um starting time and there was some speeches at the beginning there um so I would have got uh got there about that time I guess 12 something like that
02:21:10 time I guess 12 something like that um the report the SDS report of the event itself estimates the swp
02:21:16 swp turnout at around 3 to 4,000 people is that an estimate that you would agree with it it's certainly uh a reasonable estimate it's a possibility it's very hard to tell how many s swp but there
02:21:31 hard to tell how many s swp but there would have been very many s swp on it uh people came down on coaches people from London
02:21:32 London obviously did Mr bambury attempt to reach the BNP Bookshop before the March started no when you say
02:21:44 started no when you say no do you mean you can help us with evidence that confirms he did not or do you mean that you don't know well he was on the demonstration he wasn't at the
02:21:59 on the demonstration he wasn't at the Bookshop so I know that I saw him on the demonstration when did you first see Mr bambury on the day I don't know I can't remember that time but it would have
02:22:12 remember that time but it would have been early on because we were all there before the March started as is normal with big marches that all the people organizing them turn up quite early did he say anything to you in the morning um
02:22:27 um about having uh not been able to stop at Welling
02:22:28 Welling station no he didn't say anything about that I mean is this a reference to this allegation that he was trying to burn
02:22:39 allegation that he was trying to burn the place down and that he would have done if he hadn't gone to Welling station yes I'm I'm asking whether he said anything of that ill to you as I recall talking to him and Julie on the
02:22:53 recall talking to him and Julie on the morning of the demonstration we were all extremely worried about we knew there were very very large numbers we knew that the police had were blocking off this route or we thought they were going to block off the route and we were talking about how are we going to handle the demonstration I don't think he said
02:23:07 the demonstration I don't think he said anything at all about whether he got off a Welling or
02:23:14 not uh did he say anything about having done any form of reconnaissance no he didn't
02:23:32 do you know uh whether anybody uh attempted to reach the Bookshop before the main March began not that I know of but it would have been a remarkable thing to have done on the morning of a demonstration like that because what I do know from
02:23:46 like that because what I do know from extensive experience on demonstrations is that the police are always in attendance very early early on they're there when your stewards get there they're there from sometimes much earlier than that depending on the demonstration and so on so I can't see
02:24:01 demonstration and so on so I can't see why anybody would have gone or tempted to go to the Bookshop um before the March started because you would have been well aware that there would be a police presence
02:24:17 there was there a steward meeting involving both Socialist Workers Party and Y stewards almost certainly but I don't recall it would you have been involved in it or
02:24:28 would you have been involved in it or not I probably would have been involved in it but not necessarily I mean Julie said to me before the March started she said would I come up near the front so that if she wanted to ask me questions about tactics or wanted any help with anything that would I be around and
02:24:49 anything that would I be around and actually um as time went on I got sort of pushed back it was because of the crowd and everything so I wasn't absolutely at the front but so I would say from that that probably I wasn't an
02:25:00 say from that that probably I wasn't an official I wasn't an official Steward I know that and I probably wasn't at the steward's
02:25:02 steward's meeting
02:25:07 meeting um You referred earlier in your evidence to Julie Waton wanting there to be a sitdown protest when can you recall her
02:25:18 sitdown protest when can you recall her first expressing that wish I think that came about when we became Ware and as other organizations became aware that we weren't going to be able to go down Lodge hill we couldn't go down um they
02:25:30 Lodge hill we couldn't go down um they already said you're not going to go down up a Wickam Lane we wanted to go down there but we recognized that actually if the police had had blocked all that off it wasn't going to be possible to do
02:25:41 it wasn't going to be possible to do that so then what we wanted to do was go up Lodge Hill and I think the whole idea of the sit down was in protest at the fact that we weren't given any rout to at all or we weren't given a route that
02:25:54 at all or we weren't given a route that we uh certainly we weren't given a route we were satisfied with that was the first question but the whole question is should we do a sit down was something Julie proposed other people had other ideas other organizations and other
02:26:05 ideas other organizations and other people had other ideas but this was something that we came to as a means of
02:26:16 something that we came to as a means of protest which didn't actually involve uh wh scale battle with the police but the police were absolutely determined to have that battle and that's why they closed off Lodge Hill uh did the
02:26:30 Hill uh did the Y want to force the police line by having people link arms I think they wanted to link arms and see whether we could get through and I think there was a discussion about
02:26:41 I think there was a discussion about whether that was appropriate or whether the um the sit down would be a better thing to do but I can't be absolutely certain how much you know that's something you'd obviously have to ask them about about what their actual
02:26:54 them about about what their actual position was and what their tactic was can you remember how that was that
02:27:05 can you remember how that was that difference of opinion was resolved well it it sounds to me like what happened was as soon as people sat down which obviously some people do and that presumably at that stage the yre certainly weren't against sitting down even if it wasn't their favorite tactic it was at that point that the police
02:27:17 it was at that point that the police start charging with horses that they I mean they had twice as many horses at Welling as they had a or geve which is
02:27:29 Welling as they had a or geve which is incredible they had 83 horses according to the official figures and people in riot gear it was an absolutely terrifying
02:27:34 demonstration I'd like to take you to the point where you're walking towards the junction was it obvious that there were a lot of police officers at that Junction it it was very obvious but by
02:27:47 Junction it it was very obvious but by this time I was a bit of a way back so I wasn't right at the front with people and what became more and more obvious
02:27:57 and what became more and more obvious was we were just blocked we couldn't get through and that was becoming more and more apparent so we were all standing there saying what's going on and of course nobody in those days had mobile phones or anything so you had much less ability to communicate with people right at the front and is it right that the police were on the higher ground yes and
02:28:10 police were on the higher ground yes and they were sort of looking down on people plus they had all the horses in terms of riot gear is it right that the officers at at the front were not
02:28:21 officers at at the front were not equipped with riot gear but others were I wasn't at the front so I couldn't say categorically but virtually all the police that I saw were with shields with horses with all those things and that
02:28:37 horses with all those things and that was witnessed by the the level of injury of the demonstrators there was a high level of injury was the geography such that it was quite a narrow confined space given the number of people involved yes it was and as I said
02:28:53 involved yes it was and as I said the way out for us was that people tried to get over walls part of the wall collapsed into the cemetery there were other people sort of falling or jumping maybe over Garden walls you know people's private Garden walls because
02:29:07 people's private Garden walls because there was a crash and you couldn't you couldn't get through uh there is evidence that the fighting was started by some anarchists are you in a
02:29:18 anarchists are you in a position to to help us with whether or not that is true I wasn't at the front so I couldn't say categorically that it
02:29:30 so I couldn't say categorically that it it was a group of anarchists or whoever but I do know that the police were determined here to have a confrontation and that to me in a way you know it's always all this group of people started it or that group of people started it
02:29:42 it or that group of people started it but actually um there was no question the police were determined not to let that demonstration happen and I think that they wanted to actually send a
02:29:54 that they wanted to actually send a signal to the many many young people who came on the demonstration that demonstrations are very frightening things and don't do it again and that maybe had an effect on some
02:30:09 maybe had an effect on some people there's evidence that the Y stewards suffered and I'm quoting considerable casualties are you able to help us with whether or not that is true I'm sure they did because I think that um I think many of the stewards were injured Julie was taken hospital had stitches in her
02:30:24 was taken hospital had stitches in her head you can see photographs of her with she had a white jacket on which was Blood Stained and there were lots of people as I said I saw people when I was moving across from the cemetery up the
02:30:37 moving across from the cemetery up the hill that you saw lots of people sitting on the ground injured it was a a remarkable site really
02:30:48 remarkable site really and uh there's also evidence that there were and there was an especially High casualty rate amongst the Kingsway anti-fascist group stewards are you in a position to help us with whether that's true or not I don't know about them I'm afraid there's also a
02:31:01 afraid there's also a suggestion that demonstrators were hit from behind by missiles thrown by demonstrators who were behind them did that happen well this is what hn 78 said about Julie's injury but that was
02:31:12 about Julie's injury but that was totally false and she wasn't hit from behind she was hit by a police trunion in front of her are you able to say that as a Bas on the basis of what she told you or what she
02:31:28 you or what she witnessed on the basis of what she told me but also on the basis of the subsequent settlement that she
02:31:35 got we know that there were various charges by the police during the course of the day could you give us an idea of how close you were to any of those well pretty close we were all quite close to it because they didn't just charge the
02:31:47 it because they didn't just charge the front lines they began to come for for Ward and charge other people they chased people who were trying to get away uh they did all those sorts of things so I was fairly close to that and could see it very very
02:32:00 it very very closely
02:32:07 closely um as someone who was present could you just give us an idea of what it felt like to be close to one of those charges it's a very very frightening thing um I've been on two demonstrations where somebody's been killed one was in
02:32:24 where somebody's been killed one was in Red Line Square One was in genua in 2001 against the G8 and in both of them you know something very bad is likely to happen you see great formations of Riot police and you see uh all these sorts of things and I think it was extremely fortunate that nobody was killed at
02:32:36 fortunate that nobody was killed at Welling because we had the same kind of attack from the police that we'd had at those other demonstration so it was a extremely frightening thing people were
02:32:48 extremely frightening thing people were panicking there were lots of people who never been on a demonstration before um I had a friend who brought her teenage daughter teenage sons who said um that they it really made them quite
02:33:05 they it really made them quite frightened to go on other demonstrations subsequently um people were lots of people had no idea where they were people who' come from all over the country the March just it never came to a a conclusion in that sense it just
02:33:16 a a conclusion in that sense it just sort of broke up because such was the scale of the of the violence and the
02:33:24 scale of the of the violence and the attacks from the police so that was what it was like and as I say it felt to you like you were in a a battlefield where you were just trying to get off the battlefield um in one piece really and
02:33:35 battlefield um in one piece really and as quickly as you could I'd like to take you now to the SDS report of the event sir it's tab b45 it's 25694
02:33:55 um this dat you can see from the date in the title that it's it's about this demonstration it says numbers present 15 to 20,000 is that an estimate that you would agree with no it was much bigger
02:34:08 would agree with no it was much bigger than that it was we usually say 60,000 I'd say 50 60,000 I mean there were
02:34:21 I'd say 50 60,000 I mean there were something like 500 coaches which already puts it above that figure leaving aside people who got there by other means uh if we could look at the last two paragraphs on the first page
02:34:31 please says the prescription of a route by
02:34:32 by police coupled with the reported presence of some 7,000 police officers
02:34:43 presence of some 7,000 police officers convinced leaders on the morning of the March that it would be impossible to reach the
02:34:46 reach the Bookshop is that right well what that it it didn't just convince people on the morning of the March they
02:35:01 people on the morning of the March they accepted that this was they didn't agree with the prescription of the route they wanted to be able to go there but they accepted that given the the whole situation they wouldn't be able to to do that so they looked for Alternatives and the Alternatives were they had the sit down um the linking of arms those kind
02:35:14 down um the linking of arms those kind of things uh but it I I I can't stress too much how this was something which I think the police very very much
02:35:27 think the police very very much determined would happen in this kind of way and were determined that it would happen in this uh in this kind of way and and to be honest to call it an ill-intentioned mob
02:35:38 ill-intentioned mob just tells you something very bad I mean these people were here protesting about fascism protesting about racist murders protesting about the growth of fascism uh they were not a mob they were people from all walks of life all ages they
02:35:50 from all walks of life all ages they were um they wanted to come with this single intention of closing the the BMP headquarters and they were treated like criminals it's disgraceful it says the the physical
02:36:07 disgraceful it says the the physical presence and appearance of large numbers of fully equipped Riot police was the single most persuasive deterrent was it well it didn't deter people did people came on the
02:36:19 people did people came on the demonstration and they were attacked that's what happened so it wasn't a deterrent a deterrent would be if somebody said the 7,000 Riot police over
02:36:30 somebody said the 7,000 Riot police over there don't come to the demonstration so I I don't really quite get that phrase it doesn't make sense it wasn't a deterrent um and it wasn't an ill intention mob the choice of words for the next sentence may be interesting the second major factor was the choice of
02:36:49 second major factor was the choice of battleground by police and we've we've gone over the geography um from your side of the of the um fence were you about choosing a Battleground not at all the Battleground the police put themselves in the
02:37:03 the police put themselves in the dominant position they made sure they were in the position to do it and I think it as you say I don't think that use of the term is accidental I think they saw it as a battle and they wanted to defeat the
02:37:16 to defeat the demonstrators but looking at it from a another perspective if an enormous number of people
02:37:25 people angry at the Hideous events that had happened recently in southeast
02:37:37 southeast London had got into the confined space of a upper Wickham Lane around the Bookshop very bad things could have happened couldn't they very bad things did happen on that
02:37:48 they very bad things did happen on that day and they were caused by the attacks
02:37:59 day and they were caused by the attacks on the demonstrators and let's just kind of put it another way that surely in a democracy people who as you say were very very exercised about these questions very concerned about them and quite rightly and very few people now would deny that they were correct to to be concerned about them are we seriously
02:38:13 be concerned about them are we seriously saying that these people aren't going to be able to march anywhere apart from Trafalga square that they're not allowed to go to the area where where the headquarters is they're not allowed to express their concern they're not allowed to say to the people in that
02:38:26 allowed to say to the people in that local area it is not acceptable that this headquarters exists I think I think it was absolutely wrong for the police to behave in the way that they did and I
02:38:43 to behave in the way that they did and I think in terms of what we now know about the Steven Lawrence murder in terms of all the things that we now know with hindsight it is it was absolutely the right thing to do to go there and the police themselves have got from that
02:38:56 police themselves have got from that area have a whole number of questions to answer about their policing both on the day but also about the racist murders could we take that down please and could we have up the document uh which you will find at tab b46 it's 33s
02:39:11 22s we're now moving into the aftermath
02:39:22 this is a report which is attributed to both hn 101 and hn 78 22nd of uh October and if we look at paragraph
02:39:36 paragraph two following the recent violent anti-british National Party demonstration in Welling the Socialist worker party has launched a counter
02:39:47 worker party has launched a counter offensive to the negative press that has been received this has been achieved by dedicating a large proportion of its Oran socialist worker dated the 23rd of October 1993 to the truth about the incident furthermore party notes the
02:40:01 incident furthermore party notes the weekly internal party communication sets out guidelines to be adopted when members are confronted on the subject of the violence displayed at the Welling
02:40:15 the violence displayed at the Welling demonstration in effect this states that the party only Advocates the use of violence in self-defense or in defense of a
02:40:29 self-defense or in defense of a Democratic majority who seek fundamental change by imposing unacceptable conditions police had made confrontation inevitable is it right that a party line was established in the aftermath of the demonstration in these
02:40:43 terms the the whole paragraph you're talking
02:40:49 talking about well it says in effect this States only advate does that does that accurately reflect I it does and I think Julie I know after the um demonstration when she was interviewed in the press
02:41:03 when she was interviewed in the press and I think um representatives of yre made similar points that there was they created the conditions where you would have the likelihood of violence erupting not through the
02:41:14 violence erupting not through the actions of demonstrators but through their own actions and they I I feel when you look at it more and more I think you have to say this was quite a deliberate
02:41:29 have to say this was quite a deliberate attempt to stop protest against the BMP in that part of London and not just in that part of London because the then commissioner was also involved in these discussions so that's how I see it yes
02:41:41 discussions so that's how I see it yes and I think Julie I think uh Julie said that they they knew that something bad would happen as a result of closing off all the rots when you close off all the routs with that number of people whether it's a major football match or whatever
02:41:54 it's a major football match or whatever it is you are going to have a problem of crush you're going to have a problem of be people being frightened you're going to have a problem of people panicking and not knowing where they're going and that all of that was a result of the policing operation now we know
02:42:10 policing operation now we know that there was Julie waterson's plan to sit down and I've understood from your evidence that some people did do that but we also know that there were other people who did throw projectiles at the police would the S swp's position be
02:42:27 police would the S swp's position be that the people who did that were using violence in self-defense I think what happens in a situation like that as I understand it people through placards and things like
02:42:39 people through placards and things like that or some people at the front or near the front did that I think it's totally understandable in these situations because what happened when people sat down was so then got the horses coming
02:42:51 down was so then got the horses coming into their ranks they then got clubbed around the head by the police all of these things actually happened and there's all sorts of evidence Visual Evidence and all sorts of um anecdotal evidence that those things happen so it is not surprising in that in that
02:43:06 is not surprising in that in that situation that people will uh respond in a way that isn't planned or isn't orchestrated but is understanding when people have got their backs against the wall which was the situation that people were finding themselves
02:43:22 were finding themselves in and you would say that that was was all the result of the police imposing unacceptable conditions I think the police knew when they were going to block all these routs they must have known that there would be a
02:43:37 known that there would be a confrontation and in fact um one of the people who uh reported on this was a a journalist on the new Statesman who actually said that they blocked off the road and this was denied by the police
02:43:51 road and this was denied by the police uh and denied by much of the press for a few weeks and eventually they got film footage it was shown to be absolutely right but he said that when he was attacked by a policeman this man said to him um you knew what was going to happen when you came here you're the sort of person who comes to this sort of thing you you should expect whatever you're
02:44:05 you you should expect whatever you're going to get now that and that was very much I think their attitude towards it um the officer who gave evidence earlier this week
02:44:13 this week hn9 suggests that the
02:44:28 hn9 suggests that the swp tailored V violence according to the event some events there' be no violence some events there would be did the swp tailor its use of violence I I don't really I don't really understand the context in which he said that or what he what he meant by it I think
02:44:42 what he meant by it I think um violence is something that happens on relatively few demonstrations and it happens in that situation I don't take the position that I'm just going to condemn all that violence I take the
02:44:53 condemn all that violence I take the position it shouldn't have happened why did it happen and look at the reasons why it happened the idea people tailor it and say well okay it's all right to do it on that demonstration but not on another one I think it's fanciful uh to tell the truth but I don't know what
02:45:12 tell the truth but I don't know what context he was referring to uh I don't think I need pursue that with you any further so I'm going to move on to another topic which is we're going back to the hitters now if we could have um tap 48 sir
02:45:25 27957 this may not be very easy to read let's see how we
02:45:34 go if you could have the next page
02:45:43 please um thank you if you could we'll see could you try blowing up the first half of the text and see if we can read that
02:45:58 this is a report from February 1994 the following information has been received from a secret and reliable source it would appear that in the wake of the recent anti-nazi League debark at brain tree and the recent Spate of
02:46:11 brain tree and the recent Spate of attacks on youths of Asian Heritage the so-called ANL hitters phone tree has once again become muted I'm I'm not sure whether that says muted or muted I think it's muted uh this is particularly
02:46:24 it's muted uh this is particularly disappointing in view of the superb relations the ANL enjoy with search light which means it is often in a position to attack the Nazis thus
02:46:38 position to attack the Nazis thus attempts are being made to reorganize the hitters unit who are generally people who can handle themselves and would be willing to attack the right wing it is agreed that the should not
02:47:01 wing it is agreed that the should not have a name L they fall into the Trap of being elitist and their actions must be sanctioned by the Central Committee of the Socialist Workers Party swp if we just stop there was
02:47:08 there was a was there ever a phone tree for uh viol people of a violent disposition within the an
02:47:22 disposition within the an not to the best of my knowledge and it certainly wasn't sanctioned by the Central Committee of the S subp if it was true did the ANL enjoy good relations with search light I think so
02:47:41 relations with search light I think so they worked um more closely with search light by the sort of mid90s yeah and what benefit did the ANL gain from its cooperation with search light well search light as as you
02:47:53 search light well search light as as you know is a magazine which kind of focuses very much on individual fascists and what they're doing and who they are and uh uh the role of the far right in in
02:48:06 uh uh the role of the far right in in not just British Society but uh European Society so I I think it would just have been a sort of political relationship in other words that you work with them over particular things I don't think it means much more uh than that I don't quite
02:48:19 much more uh than that I don't quite understand which means it's often in a position to attack the
02:48:27 Nazis could we go to the second half of the text
02:48:36 please um this authorization would be granted by Julie Waton but only if their actions are seen to be political and not squaded privacy something long-term
02:48:52 squaded privacy something long-term member of the Socialist Workers Party WP and worker at the ANL headquarters has been said to select told to select comrades who are trustworthy and have the right physical and political characteristics to carry out this work
02:49:05 characteristics to carry out this work to the best of your knowledge is there any truth in that no I as I say I don't think that would have been sanctioned by the Central Committee and Julie was a
02:49:18 the Central Committee and Julie was a member of the Central Committee so no I don't think it's true prior to Welling and at Brick Lane such hitters activity had been sanctioned by the party but on an ad hoc
02:49:30 party but on an ad hoc basis is that true according to this person but not no it's not true it I mean this is there's a whole load of
02:49:44 mean this is there's a whole load of things here that just a sort of asserted without any evidence whatsoever without any kind of sense that it's any anything other than po Pub gossip or anything like that and this seems to be an example of that
02:49:58 really this new proposal would put the unit on a constant footing it is envisaged that the unit will consist of between 40 and 70 members it is
02:50:09 between 40 and 70 members it is interesting to note that Chris bambury who played a significant role on the two previous occasions mentioned above has been somewhat sidelined in the key to setting up the unit is now controlled by
02:50:29 Waton is there any truth in any of that I don't think so and it seems a bit contradictory because we've been told all the way through that Chris bamber's you
02:50:35 you know behaving in this manner that he doesn't he's much more aggressive than anybody else we're now told this thing this hitters thing is set up by that Julie walterson has sidelined him and
02:50:47 Julie walterson has sidelined him and she's going to control it it seems to me that this uh this whole thing is a Fantasy by by the uh the undercover agent here if anything like this had
02:51:00 agent here if anything like this had been happening and being discussed in the ANL and the swp at the time would you have known about it yes I think
02:51:09 think so could we take this document down please and go to tab b50 28019
02:51:28 uh if we could have page two please this is um a report if we can have it blown up please thank you very much um June
02:51:52 1994 it would appear that the idea put forward by Socialist Workers Party swp Central Committee Member Chris Bamber to form an organized security unit termed
02:51:53 termed hitters within the S swp to defend it and the anti-nazi league ANL has been vetoed by Julie Waton bambury has gone
02:52:07 vetoed by Julie Waton bambury has gone as far as compiling a list of physically competent comrades who he wanted to approach to join his band not only has Waton vetoed bambury's scheme she has also out Ed two of his uh left tenants
02:52:24 also out Ed two of his uh left tenants privacy privacy and privacy from their jobs in the ANL office privacy and privacy figured highly on bamber's list of
02:52:34 of hitters both have been told that they are a disruptive influence and are banned from working in the ANL offices forth
02:52:48 with was there any plan that you were aware there of by Chris bambury to form a hitter's unit no there wasn't and as I say I
02:53:02 unit no there wasn't and as I say I think this is the kind of thing that it seems to me this is talking to maybe a couple of people this is what they all think would be a good idea rather than actually what did happen and what um what was agreed and none of this was
02:53:17 um what was agreed and none of this was agreed and you know I noticed in one of these documents that hn 78 says oh you know when Tony Cliff died he would Chris bamry would go off and and um form a sort of red action
02:53:28 and and um form a sort of red action type of group well Tony Cliff died in 2000 and that never happened and nor was it remotely likely to happen so I just think there's such a level of um
02:53:41 think there's such a level of um self-promotion a grism and inaccuracy about these reports that they're just not fantastic ically useful and they're
02:53:59 not fantastic ically useful and they're certainly not this certainly isn't true even if it didn't come to fruition uh was there any discussion by anybody along these lines well I couldn't possibly answer that question because obviously I don't know and it's speculative and it's totally speculative really but I would have thought of course people discuss all sorts of
02:54:11 course people discuss all sorts of things when they're talking onetoone but no serious political activist in the swp would have thought this was the way to go I I really think that is the
02:54:23 go I I really think that is the case it goes on to say in sidelining bambury and his idea of a formalized security group Waterson has in fact
02:54:37 security group Waterson has in fact brought closer the possibility of such a group forming on an ad hoc basis many feel that the group would come to emulate red action in style and tactics and privacy privacy has been seen drinking with leading red action figures recently in any event the issues of a
02:54:49 recently in any event the issues of a more physical confrontational facility within the S swp ANL will not disappear
02:55:01 within the S swp ANL will not disappear and there is a growing sympathy towards the idea within the rank and file of both the S swp and the ANL were you aware of any growing sympathy within either the swp or the
02:55:17 either the swp or the ANL to a more physical confrontational facility no no I wasn't aware of that and I think that the uh again this is that somebody was drinking with somebody from Red action well okay that may well be true obviously I I don't know but I
02:55:35 be true obviously I I don't know but I think that uh this I I don't recognize as a growing sympathy what's what is true is that people feel with the fascists a they feel that they're under phys that not just them not mainly them but actually ethnic minorities all sorts
02:55:48 but actually ethnic minorities all sorts of other people may be under threat from the fascists and people feel frustrated about that and they feel frustrated that the police do so little to actually um you know they don't facilitate people
02:56:02 you know they don't facilitate people who are opposing the fascist and all too often they facilitated um fascist demonstrations but that's a very different thing from people feeling frustrated about it and
02:56:17 people feeling frustrated about it and seeing it as a political option and as I said earlier the experience for us in the late '70s was a very educational experience of what happened with the anti-fascist movement and that we had to assert the need for Mass campaigning activity as opposed to individual
02:56:29 activity as opposed to individual fighting with the fascists or anything else and that was definitely the whole way in which we wanted to approach the question of the
02:56:42 question of the BMP two final matters the first is a blood and honor concert in 1994 could we have up please 074 42
02:57:07 898 uh this is about an event on the 1st of October
02:57:19 of October 1994 Charing Cross station involving the ANL um says very likely if oos opposing sides actually do confront each other that's in relation to the likelihood of disorder mood hostile reads Source
02:57:34 disorder mood hostile reads Source within the ANL hierarchy has heard that a blood and honor gig is to be staged this Saturday and that it is the intention of the ANL to confront wouldbe concert goers at Charing Cross railway station normally the party would be
02:57:46 station normally the party would be content just to derive publicity and hence recruitment from such a
02:57:55 hence recruitment from such a confrontation the leaders would maneuver demonstrators into a position whereby police could segregate them from the fascists by use of barriers at the latter's redirection point once securely protected by police the demonstrators would then be content to chant their
02:58:06 would then be content to chant their slogans and wave their banners should the venue for the concert then become known the demonstrators would make their
02:58:18 known the demonstrators would make their way there on mass but only if the police remained in tow in the hope that their sheer presence would cause the concert to be
02:58:28 to be abandoned on this occasion however it appears that the leadership of the Socialist Workers Party has sanctioned a different tactic in that in addition to
02:58:39 different tactic in that in addition to the above a small group of comrades who can handle themselves will attend the redirection point avoid being barricaded in with the larger group and hopefully do battle with the
02:58:54 do battle with the fascists can you recall the preparations for this
02:58:56 for this demonstration no not in any detail no and I remember there was a blood and on a gig but I don't know um any more details about it than that really are
02:59:10 details about it than that really are you able to help us with whether or not the second paragraph is true not to my knowledge I mean there's always all sorts of tactics on these demonstrations where people say look a
02:59:24 demonstrations where people say look a group of us will go and see if we can um see where the fascists are and all this
02:59:37 see where the fascists are and all this kind of thing um and obviously wanted to be avoid being barricaded in but that isn't a different tactic in a in a general sense and it it would be something that was almost certainly discussed by the people organizing the demonstration rather than um the S swp leadership
02:59:54 could we now go take that down um final topic uh from me uh in
02:59:59 me uh in 1995 Trevor Morris says he attended a meeting in Tottenham about Joy Gardner and the campaign for Justice For Joy Gardner and I'm sure you've seen his
03:00:12 Gardner and I'm sure you've seen his statement you but if you haven't I'll call it up uh and he described on his account talking people out of burning down Tottenham by suggesting they go and
03:00:33 down Tottenham by suggesting they go and riot in Mayfair instead and that none of them could be bothered to do that so nothing
03:00:35 nothing happened he goes on to say that he had to justify his actions to members of the swp
03:00:48 swp leadership do you know anything about that at all I I would say that I think he is quite a fantasist over his relationships
03:01:01 quite a fantasist over his relationships with the swp leadership I don't think he um you know he talks all the time about
03:01:08 um you know he talks all the time about what the close relationship he has with people and how much they relied on him and all this most of which I think is simply untrue on this particular instance uh I I can't say whether um there would have been anything thing
03:01:21 there would have been anything thing whether he was asked to justify his his statement I certainly think it's a remarkable statement that the idea that people wouldn't be bothered if they wanted to write in Mayfair that um they wouldn't be bothered to get on the tube which takes
03:01:33 bothered to get on the tube which takes about what 15 minutes from Seven Sisters you know I mean it just seems to me that was again it's a piece of self-aggrandisement rather than an
03:01:44 self-aggrandisement rather than an accurate description of what he was saying
03:01:46 saying and but I I wasn't at the meeting I don't know so I don't know exactly and just to be clear what Recollections do you have of Trevor
03:01:58 you have of Trevor Morris I don't remember him very well at all I do remember his name or his cover name and I do remember um seeing him at certain at certain things um but I think he very
03:02:13 he very much I feel that um for somebody who was four years inside the S swp he had no understanding of what we were trying to do and he was always looking for you know episodes that he could portray as in some way damaging particularly to
03:02:25 in some way damaging particularly to Chris banre I think he obviously had some kind of animous towards um and he just strikes me as somebody I thought it was really a failure of our education department that he seemed to think that
03:02:39 department that he seemed to think that we got money from the Soviet Union which was obviously nobody would have taken that seriously and I think he's somebody obviously was very unreliable was always trying to um put his own actions in a
03:02:51 trying to um put his own actions in a much better light than perhaps they were and obviously was very dishonest as well in terms of his personal life so that's that's what I think about him now but I
03:03:07 that's what I think about him now but I don't remember very much in detail about him at the time and he certainly wasn't close or particularly close to Julie Walters and or the other people he claimed to be close to thank you subject to the rule 10 process those are my questions thank you
03:03:19 process those are my questions thank you um I think we normally have 1550 minutes for that do you anticipate it that will be needed uh well I I will come and I will have someone fetch you earlier sir if if is possible
03:03:46 ended
03:16:15 e e
03:16:55 so I'm pleased to tell you there are no more questions for Dr German we have been provided with an article by her team which relates to Julie waterson's
03:17:10 team which relates to Julie waterson's civil claim for damages uh which uh we will put into evidence on paper yes Dr thank you very very much indeed for your help um and I repeat the
03:17:22 for your help um and I repeat the apology that you were messed around this week and had to come back twice to help us but even had you started when it was intended I doubt you'd have finished in time that's true I thanks very much and
03:17:34 time that's true I thanks very much and I I'm hope that we have not put you too much inconvenience and that by um completing your evidence today we've at least kept a promise very recently made to okay thank
03:17:45 to okay thank you then that um concludes our proceedings uh uh for this week we will resume on Monday at 10:00 as
03:18:15 usual e