Powerful testimony from Bea, a single mother deceived into intimate relationship with undercover officer HN78 'Bobby Lewis' (Trevor Morris) while she was involved in the Socialist Workers Party. She describes joining swp to make a difference, the terrifying Welling anti-BNP march violence, and the devastating impact of discovering years later that her partner was spying on her.
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00:08:13 good morning everybody rather an unusual setup this morning as you will have noticed the proceedings are going to be uh broadcast on live stream but only an audio broadcast there will be no video
00:08:28 audio broadcast there will be no video broadcast and this afternoon's evidence will be subject to voice modulation those in the hearing room who would ordinarily see uh the witness as he or she gives evidence will not do so today to protect the privacy of the two
00:08:44 today to protect the privacy of the two witnesses from whom we're going to hear those of you who have uh mobile electronic devices may use them to transmit what you hear in the hearing room but only after 10 minutes of
00:08:56 room but only after 10 minutes of elapsed so as to fit in with the uh live stream by which our proceedings are
00:09:12 live stream by which our proceedings are distributed uh the uh devices may not be used to uh record our proceedings yeah can you hear me b um I can I understand that you're affirming
00:09:25 affirming today I'm sorry I can't hear you well I understand that you're taking an affirmation today for your evidence I am yes please repeat after me I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and
00:09:38 solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole
00:09:49 the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank you thank you throughout this hearing I'll be
00:10:02 you throughout this hearing I'll be referring to you as be because your real name has been restricted for privacy thank you do you recall providing a witness statement to the inquiry dated the 1st of April
00:10:15 the 1st of April 2024 yes I did and are you familiar with the contents of that statement yes and can you confirm that the contents of that statement are true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief yes they're true and correct thank you we'll start off B with just some
00:10:27 you we'll start off B with just some background um you say in your Witness statement that you've been involved in campaigns for various causes since you were 16 or 17 is that correct yes and those causes include social justice
00:10:42 those causes include social justice anti-apartheid saving the environment and peace and equality uh you also say that you've
00:10:54 equality uh you also say that you've been involved in campaigning groups such as Greenpeace CND Amnesty International and other local and National campaigns is that right yes right that's right
00:11:06 is that right yes right that's right broadly speaking when obviously you can only give a very rough figure but over the years how much of your spare time would you say that you're devoted to this type of campaigning activity um oh that's quite hard to uh to enumerate really because there's
00:11:20 to enumerate really because there's there's been times when there's been big campaigns or there's been you know political
00:11:25 political um crisis things going on so but but I don't know maybe 10% yeah but has it been I I have a live as well yes has it been a current running through your life essentially that you've been involved in
00:11:40 essentially that you've been involved in always yes consist like even from before yes even as a child and B you said in your witness statement you're proud of your participation in this activity can you just explain why you're proud of
00:11:52 just explain why you're proud of it because I I've always felt that if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem and uh and I've always been aware of injustices in society and um I'm proud of the fact
00:12:13 society and um I'm proud of the fact that I have played my small part in in trying to make a more just Society a more fair and equal one and and being involved in many campaigns that I think are absolutely relevant and important
00:12:26 relevant and important and I I've wanted to make the world a better fairer place I I always have thanks thank you B if we turn now to your involvement in the
00:12:41 swp I understand from your witness statement and also from some of Trevor Morris's reporting that from around
00:12:55 Morris's reporting that from around March 1992 you did occasional part-time work in the print shop is that correct yes and was that Telly sales work yes um I I had only attended my first meeting in March 1992 and they were
00:13:07 meeting in March 1992 and they were looking for someone at the print shop to just do a bit of part-time um Tes sales I wasn't very successful at that um it just involved um you know just phoning um print shops I worked as a printer before was familiar with
00:13:18 before was familiar with um uh with uh the way the printing was organized and also to try and and sell you know some
00:13:30 you know some um other aspects that was offered at the prin shop um sure according to uh if I may call him Bobby because yes Bobby was how I always knew him as um I I was
00:13:46 how I always knew him as um I I was promoted very quickly um within a month of my first meeting to being the media officer or the communications officer which was kind of quite laughable and set the tone for a very false narrative which is is what I I read yes I'll
00:13:57 which is is what I I read yes I'll explore that this this his account of your position um B is it was this paid work that you did at The Print
00:14:08 work that you did at The Print Shop um yes it it wasn't I think it was probably only a couple of days a week right and you joined the swp soon after you matter of weeks after you started doing this work in the print shop yes
00:14:22 doing this work in the print shop yes and can I ask why what what prompted you to join the
00:14:34 swp um I felt i' found my tribe in a way you know I I found a a group of people who felt the same way that I did and were actually getting things done um they were it was like both democratic and efficient
00:14:47 and efficient um they were able to respond very quickly to um to to things that needed responded to for instance you know if if the news that a nursery was going to be closed
00:15:01 that a nursery was going to be closed locally um we were very quickly able to organize um people to campaign for for that that was something was close to my heart because my children were babies at the time really
00:15:20 the time really um so I yeah and I mean there was I I'd also I don't know if you want a bit of History where what what had happened just before then so I I had um just become a single mother I just separated from um my ex husband um 6 months
00:15:31 from um my ex husband um 6 months previously I I've been living in Jamaica uh with him so I'd moved to hacky didn't really know anybody there um I was like
00:15:42 really know anybody there um I was like completely consumed really with um bring up my children on a very small income at the time I was unable to work initially um and uh yes I saw a uh I saw a
00:16:00 um and uh yes I saw a uh I saw a program on on on the television sort of late at night which um featured David widy who was uh um Associates a member
00:16:11 widy who was uh um Associates a member of the swp who lived in Hackney actually talking about how joining a revolutionary organization um the importance to him um and it really rang
00:16:23 importance to him um and it really rang true for me I just wanted to I wanted to make a change this seemed like an organization that um that where I would be able to uh um to to do to do things it and it
00:16:35 uh um to to do to do things it and it was my birthday it was my my best friend um had been a member of of the S WP for
00:16:46 um had been a member of of the S WP for some time since she was at University in Oxford um and so I sort of put two and two together yeah and attend this meeting
00:16:48 meeting um and that that changed my life in in many ways because I felt I was able to
00:16:59 many ways because I felt I was able to be an active member of society again and be able to to be active in campaigning and um in generally trying to promote social justice um and and I met people locally I felt like as part of a community um it was wonderful really so
00:17:12 community um it was wonderful really so it it gave you emotional support as well as giving you an outlook for campaigning and wanting to make the world a better
00:17:23 and wanting to make the world a better place yes is that right yes um can I ask which branch did you join well it was doston Branch originally um
00:17:34 originally um um at that time I think there were was only maybe two or three branches in Hackney but um soon after after um the my relationship was ended or coming
00:17:45 the my relationship was ended or coming to an end um it split split into several different branches I think there was maybe seven or eight branches in Hackney there were so many people in in the particularly in Hackney and did becoming a member what
00:17:57 Hackney and did becoming a member what did that entail was that just a matter of signing a form form um as far as you record I think so yes signning form paying um paying Subs
00:18:13 yes signning form paying um paying Subs I don't think they were very much in my case because I I wasn't working um yes there was no kind of Cloak and Dagger initiation it was just like joining any organization sure signed a form paid to subs and um and that was it did you have to give any sort of commitment in terms
00:18:25 to give any sort of commitment in terms of the amount of time you might be able to devote to the branch or was it fairly relaxed as in you could just participate as much as you were able to it was it
00:18:41 as much as you were able to it was it was very fairly relaxed I had two babies obviously I wasn't able to um to be um to commit more that much time I didn't have you know a whole lot of babysitters
00:18:55 have you know a whole lot of babysitters I didn't have my family around me um the the branch provided a babysitter so I could attend me um weekly meetings which was amazing because I hadn't actually
00:19:07 was amazing because I hadn't actually been out at all in the six months before that since I moved back to to London um and I took the so things that I could take the children to so for instance we did a weekly paper sales um and the the
00:19:18 did a weekly paper sales um and the the kids would come along to that um but I I W I didn't get involved in sort of Industrial Sales or knocking on doors things like that because um because of my commitment to the children um I was able to be quite involved in local
00:19:31 able to be quite involved in local campaigns so for instance you know when the um the closing of the nurseries closing of libraries um that sort of thing because I could take the children along um I I I I was limited in the sort
00:19:44 along um I I I I was limited in the sort of bigger uh demonstrations what I could go to but on a local level you could get involved to some extent yeah yeah and you found that that campaigning bore
00:19:56 you found that that campaigning bore fruit in the sense that actually there were
00:20:02 were some of those campaigns were successful yes
00:20:04 yes um taking it onto the the more sort of macro level uh forb of a better word um what was your understanding be I think
00:20:19 what was your understanding be I think you a member of the s swp from 1992 to 2007 you say in your witner statement yes and varying levels of commitment sure um what did you understand to be the aims of the swp on a fairly high level
00:20:30 level um to promote socialism From Below um to to create I mean that obviously it was a revolutionary party but I'm not sure how
00:20:41 revolutionary party but I'm not sure how many of us actually believe that that we were on the brink of Revolution that was the ultimate that was the ultimate aim would be to have a um a fair just
00:20:58 would be to have a um a fair just Society with a um where which was led by people rather than by the need to make profit
00:21:05 profit um and uh I I I entirely believed in that I'm not sure that I believ the Revolution was around the corner but I believed in the principal yeah that was going to be my next question whether you thought the Revolution was imminent but I understand that you didn't really but um in your
00:21:18 that you didn't really but um in your witness statement you say that the swp didn't use violence to advance its aims though as a revolutionary party they did foresee a time when theoretically violence might hypothetically be
00:21:30 violence might hypothetically be necessary to realize its AIMS in the event of revolution is that by that is that a reference to Chile or are you referring to something else Chile as an
00:21:42 referring to something else Chile as an example yes it was about I mean I think actually you know that um that there's no that Revolution doesn't necessitate violence very few people for instance
00:21:54 violence very few people for instance were um were killed in the in the in the Russian Revolution um and but but sometimes it's NE necessary to to protect itself to to to maintain um to to M to maintain uh a
00:22:11 um to to M to maintain uh a revolutionary um associ Society because of the attacks from the forces of capital so as in Chile whereas pinet that it might have been necessary in that instance to protect the socialist government yes but I mean there was no
00:22:23 government yes but I mean there was no way that we were in any way trained or envisaged any violence you know know we were like most of us were pacifists we were just like a bunch of people who
00:22:36 were just like a bunch of people who cared about our community and who cared about
00:22:46 society and you'll be aware that uh Trevor Morris or Bobby as you knew him uh said in his witness statement that the aim of the swp was to overthrow the government by non-democratic means what do you have to say about that
00:23:02 what do you have to say about that well I think I mean overthrow um it it just means to change really um by non-democratic I mean I I I think that um the revolution from socialism From Below is absolutely Democratic and much
00:23:15 Below is absolutely Democratic and much more democratic than um our our current parliamentary system can be particularly you know without proportional representation and you know you only
00:23:27 representation and you know you only need to look at the um the last election where um the L party for instance got actually less votes than they did in the previous election but because of um the
00:23:41 previous election but because of um the low turnout for the touris and so on um and the way the votes were distributed you know they got a massive uh um Mass majority you know that doesn't really where where the other parties including farri parties you know had a massive um
00:23:55 farri parties you know had a massive um a vote a vote turnout but very few seats I don't think yeah you know I think it's quite it's quite clear that the current system is not altogether
00:24:09 system is not altogether Democratic um this idea of revolution from below what do you mean by that exactly is that organizing amongst communities to sort of organize things in a socialist way and then to reform the institutions from within is that what that means yes I
00:24:20 within is that what that means yes I think you know the swp would called it from you know from the workers you know other organizations for inst you talk
00:24:32 other organizations for inst you talk about citizens assemblies um and so on and you know I I and um so yes group The the people that um yeah the people power I suppose you
00:24:43 um yeah the people power I suppose you know that that that that that's the the change comes from from below and is not imposed from above by what the people would refer to as the ruling class what
00:24:55 would refer to as the ruling class what I might call The Establishment you know which is so entrenched that it's very difficult for any change to come uh to to come thank you and and you've
00:25:08 to come thank you and and you've actually covered this I think B but just to make it absolutely clear so when you were a member of the swp you didn't witness or hear about any practical steps being taken to further the
00:25:23 steps being taken to further the revolution in terms of arming yourselves or military trading or anything of that kind uh
00:25:28 kind uh no um that's um yeah absolutely not yeah we weren't even very fit most of us to um sorry we weren't we weren't even you know it wasn't even like we were into sort of Fitness let alone
00:25:40 were into sort of Fitness let alone arming ourselves yeah um if we move now to public disorder um I'd like to bring this up actually this document please which is
00:25:50 which is ucpi
00:26:03 33830 um the bottom of page seven please and this is actually an SDS briefing
00:26:04 briefing document dated the 5th of April 1993 and it reads the the relevant section reads swp leaders May provoke
00:26:17 section reads swp leaders May provoke others present into action but generally the organization does not pose a serious risk to public
00:26:28 risk to public order and I'm bringing this up really be because this is obviously an SDS document so this was the SDS View at the material time at the time when you were in the
00:26:38 in the swp and I don't think we need to bring these up but in the annual reports from this period this
00:26:43 this idea is echoed so for example in the 1992 93 annual report uh it says of the
00:26:54 1992 93 annual report uh it says of the swp that it does not in itself pose any major threat to public disorder and in the annual report for the following year 1993 to
00:27:08 the following year 1993 to 94 it says at paragraph 2.21 it does not in itself the swp pose any major threat to public order and then it says something else which I don't need to read now
00:27:18 but taking this into consideration I mean we can see from these documents that the SDS didn't consider the swp to present in itself a risk to public order would you agree with that absolutely and and I know this had been
00:27:30 absolutely and and I know this had been I haven't seen that document before but I know that um you know from 1985 the um there was a pressure to to close the s or it was it was seen that really the
00:27:47 or it was it was seen that really the the swp didn't close a um a risk and yet it sort of beggar's belief that it continued um year after year and was signed off year after year by the home office even after um the sorry I can't
00:28:05 office even after um the sorry I can't I'm not sure the what the report was in 1985 but suggested that SBB was not um not a violent organization um and that so much money was um went to uh to to spy on left wi
00:28:20 was um went to uh to to spy on left wi and environmental and um you know uh and and um anti-nuclear anti-apartheid Society it's just incredible and um I was like really horrified to see that that Bobby played a big part in trying
00:28:33 that Bobby played a big part in trying to promote the continuance of spying on on on the left and that really upset me
00:28:48 on on the left and that really upset me because I kind of believed that he must surely have had at the very least have had sympathy um and and some understanding you know he was around us all the time talking
00:28:59 he was around us all the time talking about ideas of social justice it's just so um horrible and upsetting to think that in his mind he's talking to us you know believing that we're subversives and violent dangerous people and
00:29:16 and violent dangerous people and Reporting on us as if we are um that was just yeah
00:29:18 just yeah horrific there's an implication be in the quote that I read you but elsewhere and I'll take you to those that whil the swp in it self isn't a violent
00:29:31 swp in it self isn't a violent organization that it might provoke others to violence um so just the relevant bit in the extract that I just brought up was um it started off swp
00:29:46 brought up was um it started off swp leaders May provoke others present into action and I'll refer you just to two sections
00:29:47 sections from Bobby's um witness statement and Bobby sorry I said obviously mean Trevor Morris but I'm
00:30:00 obviously mean Trevor Morris but I'm calling him Bobby because that's how you knew him so in his witness statement which is
00:30:02 which is 35076 and it's page 75 paragraph 85 C he says of the swp Wist it tried to
00:30:13 C he says of the swp Wist it tried to avoid being associated with violence it often promoted or encouraged the use of violence particularly by others to achieve its
00:30:29 achieve its aims and I'll just read you another section which is on page 13 7 it's paragraph
00:30:34 paragraph 190a and he says it was my view that the swp sought to take credit for anything and it pursued a strategy of instigating incidents whilst protecting senior swp officials from being identified as
00:30:46 officials from being identified as involved so my question for you be is during your time with the swp did you see or hear anything which supports this view of swp leaders or swp members
00:30:57 view of swp leaders or swp members instigating or inciting others to be violent I mean I'm not quite sure what
00:31:11 violent I mean I'm not quite sure what he what he means by that how would the the leaders by whom I assume he means the Central Committee um instigate violence from other people my understanding was very clearly from the start that the swp is a non-violent
00:31:24 start that the swp is a non-violent organization which what which which fights with numbers and not with violence and the import importance was to have mass mobilization and that direct action or violence of any sort would be counterrevolutionary because it
00:31:35 would be counterrevolutionary because it would stop people from joining it wasn't a small Splinter sort of terrorist group it was a it was about getting ordinary people to join and ordinary people aren't going to join if they think
00:31:53 aren't going to join if they think they're going to go to a a demonstration and get beaten up so I I I just I I don't
00:31:57 don't understand I I just I don't understand that
00:32:01 that it I have been involved in um you know I in I I went to green and common for instance you know a couple of times where direct action I I am in favor sometimes of direct action and um you know I think it it worked for instance
00:32:17 know I think it it worked for instance at um at Green common and and I remember having those arguments at the beginning was saying you know why don't we do direct action at all and being told no you know this is about Mass mobilization
00:32:37 you know this is about Mass mobilization this is about working the community this is about um being open and and friendly and um you know and bringing people um because you know because we were involved in the campaigns that people care about so violence would have been completely counterproductive and this
00:32:52 completely counterproductive and this kind of idea about the the leadership you know working in this kind of sinister way is just completely um alien to me I I don't understand I don't understand where that comes from I also don't understand why
00:33:03 comes from I also don't understand why how Bobby sort of feels that he has this um this relationship with the leadership because as I understand it he was just a a rank and file member he wasn't in the
00:33:18 a rank and file member he wasn't in the inner circles at all so I don't know how he can sort of be reporting there's several reports several references to um you know what was happening in the to secret meetings and so on in Inner Circle but I don't think that Bobby was
00:33:32 Circle but I don't think that Bobby was anywhere near the Inner Circle you know he never did the kind of things that the that the leaders would do like write books and you know lead meetings do meetings at Marxism he had no sort of
00:33:50 meetings at Marxism he had no sort of particular um intellectual or political um experience you know he W he wasn't one of those people he was a useful um and a friendly person person you know he had a car um he was he was involved in
00:34:04 had a car um he was he was involved in things he was he had an infectious smile and laugh and we liked him you know he but he was just he was one of he was one of us he wasn't in the um you know this kind of Secret cabal of leadership that he refers to so was it not your
00:34:17 he refers to so was it not your impression then that he was being teed up to sort of lead the ANL for example in East London or anything of that sort um I um I I wasn't particularly
00:34:29 sort um I um I I wasn't particularly active in the in the ANL but um I don't think so at all I as in my understanding I don't think he had any
00:34:42 I don't think he had any um he had any leadership role there but I think he had time so he did because because of his kind of work um which was
00:34:54 because of his kind of work um which was purportedly doing this sort of freelance work DJing and um German translation he he had the time to spend um in the office is there um and I'm sure you know that he that he did his part and administratively and so on yes thanks um
00:35:10 administratively and so on yes thanks um I mean you have you have answered this B but it's just to make it absolutely clear that from what you saw and heard what was the swp's attitude to Violent direct action because obviously there's
00:35:21 direct action because obviously there's a distinction between non-violent direct action as you refer to at greed McMan and violent direct action what was their attitude to squads for example or those
00:35:33 attitude to squads for example or those people who wanted to take violent direct actions against the extreme right wing well that was completely against the party policy and the and in fact you know there had been a group back in the 1970s I think who wanted to take direct action
00:35:44 action um and they were they were chucked out of the party and became a um red action I think so within the bulk of the party it was
00:35:57 it was absolutely anti the policy of the of the the party which is about Mass mobilization was about being open and welcoming and involved in in in the community and in social justice
00:36:11 community and in social justice campaigns thank you um I'd just like to bring this up it's on the same topic but it's a document reference ucpi
00:36:24 28019 and it's a report dated the 24th of June
00:36:29 of June 1994 it's not in your Bund sir it's page two paragraph one of that report and it's not actually coming up here but I can just read you the relevant bit B it reads that the swp's
00:36:40 relevant bit B it reads that the swp's Chris bambury had compiled a quote list of physically competent comrades to form
00:36:51 of physically competent comrades to form an organized security unit to defend the swp and the ANL and Trevor Morris says in this report that even though idea was vetoed
00:37:02 report that even though idea was vetoed by Julie Waton and then Quote The issue of a more physical confrontational facility with within the swp ANL will not disappear and there is growing sympathy towards the idea within the
00:37:13 sympathy towards the idea within the rank and file of both the swp and the
00:37:21 ANL what do you say to that were you aware of any growing sympathy to this idea I mean not not at all and I don't know what um Bobby seems to really
00:37:32 know what um Bobby seems to really dislike Chris bamry there's so much a very derogatory references to him um did you know Chris sorry to interrupt well he worked at the I I knew him through
00:37:45 he worked at the I I knew him through the prin shop um but I I didn't really know him you know on a personal level particularly but um that I I I mean I can't comment definitively other than that I didn't know that there was any relationship between Chris bambur and
00:38:03 relationship between Chris bambur and Bobby and um although Chris um you know he he he might have sounded kind of quite strid and and and very Scottish um that that that he was you know absolutely in line with um with
00:38:15 absolutely in line with um with everybody else and and um as lindsy German um said he there there was no I
00:38:26 German um said he there there was no I don't think that there was um any either relationship between uh Chris and Bobby or that he would in any
00:38:32 any way want to promote something that would be at risk the mass mobilization and the and the mass movement
00:38:46 movement understood B will look now just briefly at the idea of entryism or this idea that Trevor Morris touches upon of the swp sort of exploiting campaigns for its own ends
00:39:03 own ends um this pops up a couple of times in his reporting and in his witness statement but he says I mean I I don't think I need to bring it up but it's paragraph one of his witness statement where he says although I was doing a service for the country I realized I had a general dislike of the police luckily for me
00:39:16 dislike of the police luckily for me that was topped by me realizing the swp were using me and people of my color for their own ends I'll just give you another example it's the same in his
00:39:29 another example it's the same in his witness statement this time paragraph 142 and he's talking here about his reporting on Justice campaigns and he says the purpose of me providing information on any of these groups was solely because of the involvement or
00:39:40 solely because of the involvement or interest by swp and ANL in furthering their aims by getting into these groups s swp attempted to get into any group or
00:39:51 s swp attempted to get into any group or organization that it thought it could Ed to achieve its aims of fracturing the system and bring about socialism that's why I would have reported on these so again what you witnessed and
00:40:07 these so again what you witnessed and from your time in the swp did you see or hear anything to suggest that the S swp's involvement in these campaigns was somehow inauthentic that it was a means to an
00:40:15 to an end I mean it's so ironic isn't it really um you know entryism um and infiltration you know that involves um
00:40:28 infiltration you know that involves um that that's about um uh uh uh secretly becoming part of a group um in order to get information um and influence others um which is exactly what um Bobby and
00:40:45 um which is exactly what um Bobby and others in the SDS were doing that was infiltration um the the of of course um members wanted to get involved in their trade
00:40:56 wanted to get involved in their trade unions and so on um and and in campaigns you know for for what firstly because we were absolutely
00:41:08 what firstly because we were absolutely sincere about what we wanted to do there was no kind of cynicism there was no kind of self-serving we we totally believed in um in in in in social justice um but nobody was pretending to be anything other than they what they were or to believe anything other than
00:41:27 were or to believe anything other than what they were it's just so ironic and so cynical that um to that a spy uses those terms I'm sorry but I mean the other thing is about um the race issue that this I mean I I read this that um
00:41:43 that this I mean I I read this that um that he said that he's um that he felt there was that he was used because of the color of his skin
00:41:57 um I just think you know a couple of things about that I just wonder if he'd ever met anybody who actually believed in in in their Community who actually believed in making a better Society who was actually authentic
00:42:07 authentic um how how you know you you join a Justice campaign because you believe in Justice not because you want to further your aims or or whatever um or or
00:42:23 your aims or or whatever um or or whatever you know self serving is a term that he uses you know it's again so ironic because you know seems seems that that this group of spies were so and and particularly Bobby was just so self-serving in what the way he
00:42:35 self-serving in what the way he presented his information um and you know the other issue about race I have to bring this up is that you know he he talks about his experience of racism in the police um which you know we
00:42:49 the police um which you know we understand that there is institutional or has been certainly institutional racism in the police um he the police are in effect protecting um the overtly racist
00:43:01 protecting um the overtly racist organization the BMP at Welling he and and is and is an absolutely anti-racist organization um I I I can't but believe
00:43:24 organization um I I I can't but believe he must have been so conflicted in this inauthenticity that he was effectively um protecting a right racist organization um whilst spying on an overtly anti-racist organization that beli passionately in equal rights for
00:43:37 beli passionately in equal rights for and and in anti-apartheid and and you know decent people spending their their spare
00:43:45 spare time uh campaigning for equality that should be undermined in that way in his
00:43:58 reports that actually leads into the next topic I want to cover with you be which is this idea of secrecy and again you've touched on this
00:44:10 secrecy and again you've touched on this but just to clarify from what you saw in the swp was it a secretive organization at
00:44:15 at all no I mean that that's I me that's so important because I just could not believe that public money was being spent on an organization which was
00:44:28 spent on an organization which was absolutely open had no secrets of course it had no secret because when you want to build something you want to be welcoming you want to be open there was no secrets you know we had a weekly newspaper everything was there in the newspaper we had uh party notes which
00:44:43 newspaper we had uh party notes which would um you know every Branch meeting we'd have a party notes that wasn't a secret um that wasn't a secret document I'm not aware of any secrets in the
00:44:56 I'm not aware of any secrets in the organization I'm not aware of anything that would justify massive amounts of tax payers money um to to to to send spies into to infiltrate an organization which was absolutely authentic and open did it have private meetings as far as
00:45:08 did it have private meetings as far as you know meetings that no no um I mean he refers to a private meeting that he attended but I I I but I was not aware
00:45:22 attended but I I I but I was not aware that there was any private meetings I I absolutely don't believe that there would be private meeting of course there was Central committee meetings things but you know everything that went on there was was was publicized you know that you can't grow a movement on
00:45:34 that you can't grow a movement on Secrets yeah thank you um was the swp concerned about its security as far as you could
00:45:47 you could tell um no um Tony Cliff who was still alive at that time who was the leader used to sort of say well you know let them send in spies you know there there's nothing to spy on you know and it was almost like a joke but I don't think although you know that was he
00:45:59 think although you know that was he would say it as a joke I don't think that he really believed that there were infiltrators and certainly not infiltrators who would make relationships with women indeed and as far as you know be
00:46:20 women indeed and as far as you know be you may not know about this but when the swp was involved in organizing marches or protests as far as you know did it Lea with the police in terms of the roots of the March the numbers expected
00:46:31 roots of the March the numbers expected that sort of information did it provide it yes I believe so especially in the big in the large marches yes but obviously I you know as I understand it yes um just briefly beyond your activities when you were in the
00:46:54 swp again roughly in the period that you knew Trevor Morris how much of your time were you devoting to swp activities would you say I
00:47:02 I mean I had I had a one-year-old and a three-year-old um so I was fairly limited I would do definitely a paper sale on Saturday if I possibly could yeah um and i' do attend the meeting
00:47:18 yeah um and i' do attend the meeting right on uh Wednesday I think it was um is that Weekly yes yes and in terms of marches and protests did you take part in many of those I mean I've always been um I've
00:47:35 those I mean I've always been um I've I've always been a um a protester uh at that time probably less than uh less than at many at other times in my life just because my children were so small of course um you know I can remember I've got pictures of of uh a campaign to
00:47:51 I've got pictures of of uh a campaign to keep Bart's Hospital open for instance I think it was maybe the A&E or a department in in FS um uh there was a the and there was a campaign to um to keep the library open
00:48:04 campaign to um to keep the library open to keep the nurseries open um there was a on my local Nursery actually the one that my daughter went to uh was closed down but it but there was less closures than there would have been I believe if there hadn't been those sort of campaigns sure
00:48:17 campaigns sure and what was the mood like when you did participate in a public protest or March can I ask was the mood peaceful vifer us how would you describe it
00:48:29 vifer us how would you describe it generally yes apart from Welling yes we'll come to Welling so yes save for Welling I should have made that clear so sorry did you say it was generally
00:48:47 sorry did you say it was generally peaceful yes right and I think you refer in your witness to taking your children to the protests so was that something you did often or was that um I you can ask them they have many many experiences of of of
00:49:00 many many experiences of of of protesting of going on protest yes it was kind of like a um you know an afternoon out but I suppose the point is you felt able to take your children on the protest yes
00:49:11 children on the protest yes um there was a social scene associated with the swp is that right yeah and was that mainly Branch focer
00:49:25 that mainly Branch focer store did it cross Branch lines or was it mainly you socialize with people people from your branch yes and so may having a drink after a meeting for instance but some of those people um uh
00:49:37 instance but some of those people um uh my comrades from that time actually have become my best friends and uh you know we continue to socialize yeah so would you say it was a it was a welcoming friendly
00:49:54 friendly scene very much so yes and some of these social activities B I understand would you hold social events in your house I mean maybe social events as a bit of a formal way of putting it but you'd have people I have parties in my house I had people around um for dinner i' I've
00:50:11 people around um for dinner i' I've always been um a a bit of a Hostess and uh um yes I did have parties in my house um just quickly we'll go to this point that you raised earlier on about your your roles in the swp uh if we
00:50:33 your your roles in the swp uh if we actually if we can bring up this is the first report we've obtained by Trevor Morris that references you and the reference is ucpi
00:50:36 ucpi 28336 sir it's at tab
00:50:47 28336 sir it's at tab B2 and this is a um nominal what's known as a nominal and upto-date performer on you from the 14th of April 1992 be at this point were you in a relationship with Trevor Morris do you
00:50:58 relationship with Trevor Morris do you think so what was the date it's 14th of April 1992 yes yes uh but very early days yes uh it reads says of you be was the first
00:51:13 reads says of you be was the first non-member of the swp to be employed in The swp Print Shop East End offset however recently she's joined the Hackney South Branch she's been put in charge of publicity of Marxism as pertains to advertisements in the written media this particular position enhances her regular work as the Telly
00:51:28 enhances her regular work as the Telly salesperson for The Print Shop although the subject is active in the ANL her membership of the swp would seem to be more pragmatically based than ideologically believing her employment is more secure as a party member so be
00:51:39 is more secure as a party member so be if we just go first to this suggestion that you are you've been put in charge of publicity of Marxism as pertains to
00:51:52 of publicity of Marxism as pertains to advertisements in the written media what do you have to say about that um there wouldn't be many people in Mar ISM if I was in charge of the publicity um I had
00:52:03 was in charge of the publicity um I had no experience in um publicity uh and and I
00:52:04 I mean the the I I'd only just joined the
00:52:15 mean the the I I'd only just joined the party he even you know says that I think it was March I know it was March 1992 I attended my first meeting yes I'm not sure I I was even so I just become a member at that point so I just become a member and immediately become responsible for all the publicity and Marxism I mean that would be some promotion um there's there's something
00:52:29 promotion um there's there's something else in that that I that I find really offensive that I was I that I was not ideologically um that I joined for sort of pragmatic reasons for my
00:52:41 of pragmatic reasons for my career so wrong in so many ways for one thing you know I it was it was only a casual job it wasn't what I wanted to do for life I I started I went to um university to train as a social work soon after that I knew I was going to do
00:52:52 soon after that I knew I was going to do that so it wasn't like I was looking for a career I was just you know it was just a temporary um thing and and I I I mean
00:53:04 a temporary um thing and and I I I mean I have thought a lot about why would he why would he say that and I I think maybe he was sort of trying to protect me in some way that that you know he had a relationship and he was very fond of
00:53:17 a relationship and he was very fond of we were very fond of each other um and maybe by kind of distancing me from these terrible socialists um made the relationship more palatable for him um or more excusable that's the only way I
00:53:31 or more excusable that's the only way I can understand how he would say that yes thank
00:53:37 you so it's I mean I understand from your witness statement you might have helped out a bit with publicity but to say you ahead of publicity is inaccurate is that right yes yes yes um I'd just like to
00:53:53 right yes yes yes um I'd just like to bring up another report now B which is ucpi 28309 sah it's a tab B3 and this is an event performer as it's called dated the 29th of April
00:54:13 it's called dated the 29th of April 1992 and it's regarding the swp MayDay rally and it reads the party has paid £33,000 for the rental of the premises but certainly a mistake was made by privacy when he waited until last
00:54:27 privacy when he waited until last Thursday to inform the media officer B to enter the rally in free listing Publications so this is very close in time to the last report and it's yeah it's just a couple
00:54:41 report and it's yeah it's just a couple of weeks later and now you're described as the media officer what do you say about that I mean there's obviously an amazingly fast um uh Pro promotion
00:54:52 amazingly fast um uh Pro promotion opportunities in the swp when if I I've joined um like a week before and I'm suddenly the the media of officer um you know again I'm wondering where that comes from why he would say that and I'm wondering whether
00:55:06 wondering whether um he feels that to be going out with the media officer might be you know maybe his his minder said well you know why are you going out with this insignificant person and suddenly I'm promoted to Media officer in his um in
00:55:23 promoted to Media officer in his um in his mind it's it's to it's fictional um but also sort of funny
00:55:32 um be moving on I'm actually going to look now at a report from another officer that we know is hn9 who gave evidence last week and it's I'm bringing it to your attention because you are recorded as having
00:55:48 because you are recorded as having attended this event that he reports on um the report reference is ucpi
00:55:49 ucpi 199
00:55:51 199 59 so it's at tab
00:56:03 59 so it's at tab B5 and this is report from hn9 dated the 3rd of August 1992 and it's on Marxism 92 and this took place I understand between the 10th of July 92 and the 17th
00:56:15 between the 10th of July 92 and the 17th of July 92 and he describes it as a week of lectures debates discussions is that broadly correct yes um now you're listed as an attendee on page 34b do you recall this event
00:56:27 page 34b do you recall this event well I been to Marxism um many many times it's a festival of socialist ideas it's a um it's a a wonderful event it includes like music poetry lectures um
00:56:45 includes like music poetry lectures um discussions um that would have been my first Marxism and although I can't um I can't remember any particular details
00:56:54 details um I've always been very excited by that um by that Festival right okay um well I just want to read you a couple of
00:57:05 just want to read you a couple of extracts you may not recall well enough to be able to comment but I would like you to if you can recall what took place if you are able to comment on them then please do the first one is uh it's on
00:57:19 please do the first one is uh it's on page two paragraph six and this is under a heading
00:57:25 a heading racialism and hn9 writes R racial issues were given a h profile this year with numerous meetings centered on the role of black people in society the LA riots gave particular inspiration to the
00:57:36 gave particular inspiration to the notion that black people were rising up to change the society which had oppressed them for so long the party line stressed the importance of converting that anger away from White Society and into a class anger against
00:57:48 Society and into a class anger against capitalist Society blacks and whites had to be made to unite to defeat the system that oppresses them are you able to comment on the accuracy or otherwise of
00:58:02 comment on the accuracy or otherwise of that description um so can you just put it up again sorry yes sorry it's yeah if you could just leave that while I'm commenting on it um so the there's always a sort of different
00:58:13 there's always a sort of different themes and meetings so there might be like a number of meetings on on women's issues a number of meetings on um on on on issues on of of raise you
00:58:25 um on on on issues on of of raise you know on in in industrial or whatever is the the um you know what the the the the topic of that people are most passionate
00:58:40 topic of that people are most passionate about at the time you know and this this year's Marxism which I went to recently um you know there was a number of meetings on um on Palestine for instance so yes there would have been um a number of meetings um however this sentence at
00:58:54 of meetings um however this sentence at the end blacks and whites had to be made to unite in order to defeat the system that oppresses them um I mean that's a very loaded sentence is and it had to be made to unite as if um you know if black
00:59:07 to unite as if um you know if black people and white people have nothing in common and have to be yeah um you know have to be sort of dragged together that was not that is not the way we see um
00:59:25 was not that is not the way we see um that we see Society at all it we look at things in terms of class rather than um rather than than race or gender or you
00:59:38 rather than than race or gender or you know that it's everybody's interest that that the interests of the working class or anybody but the ruling class is is the same for for everybody and it's important to um to unite of course um rather than you know identity politics was seen as being as as being um
00:59:54 was seen as being as as being um divisive although there is a part um you know religion to to you know help women to find their voice help black people to find their voice and then but it's a class issue so hat to be made to unite is so cynical
01:00:06 is so cynical um and and and so loaded it's not
01:00:20 um and and and so loaded it's not doesn't bring true B I want to draw your attention now to another section of the same report um it's on page four and it's paragraph 13 and it's under the heading meeting of partic particular interest and it's about the quality of British
01:00:30 British Justice and it reads again this year different campaign groups were given flaw time to expound the details of their respective cases and to highlight the different Justice Meed out to
01:00:42 the different Justice Meed out to workingclass people on the one hand and City frauders on the other this meeting had a noticeably more Angry tone than
01:00:53 had a noticeably more Angry tone than other similar meetings in the past it is as if the number of notorious convictions that Rec recently have been quashed on appeal due to prosecution in quotes
01:01:01 quotes irregularities has given rise to the idea that every convicted workingclass person is in fact innocent because the police fabricate evidence in nearly all cases needless to say the kind of
01:01:14 cases needless to say the kind of justice that the meeting implied was fair was one that puts policemen and judges up against the firing squad wall without trial and places elected but untrained workers in their place Cas to
01:01:35 untrained workers in their place Cas to try and subsequently sentence the ruling class um I would say he completely misunderstood the the meeting I obviously remember that meeting that's 40 30 years ago um but um up against the wall there's this is a nonviolent
01:01:47 wall there's this is a nonviolent organization nobody was um there was no suggestion of putting people up against the wall th those terms would just never
01:02:01 the wall th those terms would just never ever be used um although it was and felt that you know that certain elements of the establishment needed to be you know more democratic and need to be
01:02:14 more democratic and need to be um yeah to uh to to not just be in the service of the ruining class what was the other thing that I wanted to mention from that
01:02:23 um the the idea that every convicted workingclass person is in fact in because the police fabricate evidence in nearly all cases I mean there are some cases of social injustice but that
01:02:35 cases of social injustice but that doesn't but but the suggestion that
01:02:47 doesn't but but the suggestion that every workingclass person is innocent um is is absurd misunderstanding I I guess but but or he was you know providing what uh what he was paid to provide the narrative his like loaded
01:02:59 provide the narrative his like loaded narrative because he's he you know it it doesn't look so great if you talk if you're reporting about something that doesn't invol you know that if if you H he he had to imply that there was inherent violence because he was getting
01:03:14 inherent violence because he was getting paid and lots of money for this for this position
01:03:16 position um that's all I can say thank you be we're going to move now on to
01:03:31 on to Welling um now I'd like to bring this up just to help orientate you and us um it's the map at ucpi
01:03:40 3718 um if we could just go to the bottom of page three uh sorry sir it's tab C1 um the bottom of page three this is just to show that the map is from
01:03:52 is just to show that the map is from 1993 that's when it was published so the time of Welling
01:04:01 and if we can go to page four and scroll about a third of the way down uh my screen's not actually working but I hope if you can't make sense of what I'm saying be please let me know
01:04:12 what I'm saying be please let me know and I'll I'll get my own copy of the map but page four about a third of the way down can you see Welling it's there just south of the river just the area broadly I don't
01:04:23 river just the area broadly I don't worry about yes and I'm not familiar with the um Southeast Landon at all but yes I see Welling there yes um so welling's south of the river TS me is
01:04:39 welling's south of the river TS me is directly north can you see tsme just up there again as an area it's just the other side of the river yeah um I'm just identifying that because in February 1991 that is where Roland Adams was killed he was 15 years old and he
01:04:51 was killed he was 15 years old and he was waiting with his brother at a bus stop and he was stabbed in the throat and side so close to
01:05:05 Welling then if we look at the to the sort of Southwest or to the left of
01:05:10 left of Welling um we've got Elam or Elam I'm not actually quite sure how you pronounce it Elam is can you see that there yes um and specifically well Hall
01:05:24 specifically well Hall Road in July 1992 that's where roit dugle was
01:05:29 dugle was murdered outside a kebab shop by a group of white
01:05:31 of white youths
01:05:38 youths and one of the youths Peter Thompson who was convicted for his murder was carrying BNP leaflets on him and then on that same road less than a year later on the 22nd of April
01:05:50 of April 1993 that's where Steven Lawrence was murdered and Dwayne Brooks was attacked by again a gang of white youths in a racist
01:06:02 racist murder so I'm just doing that be just to show that these murders took place in areas surrounding the BMP Bookshop in Welling uh this socalled uh Bookshop it was on upper Wickam Lane and
01:06:14 was on upper Wickam Lane and Welling do you understand that yes to be
01:06:25 Welling do you understand that yes to be correct I never I I never saw the um the headquarters but yes I was where it was and it been there since 1989 um and was it your understanding your belief be that its location that the fact of this Spate of racist murders
01:06:36 the fact of this Spate of racist murders and the fact of the Bookshop were linked in the sense that it was emboldening its presence there was emboldening racists in the area of course and frightening um black
01:06:47 area of course and frightening um black people in in the area that's it there's no way that that could be a coincidence um look at the proximity to the BMP
01:07:01 um look at the proximity to the BMP headquarters you know that was there's got to be a link there hasn't there um what was your understanding be of the reasons for the Welling March of the 16th of October 1993 what what had
01:07:18 the 16th of October 1993 what what had prompted it if that's not a well it was prompted by the racist murders and it was prompted by you know this it was called a Bookshop but I don't I don't think it was I think it was a quarters really
01:07:31 really um the presence in uh you know in an area in any area would not be um tolerable but when there was this this this Spate of racist attacks of
01:07:47 this Spate of racist attacks of murders there is definitely a link so we were there to to like firstly to show solidarity with the black population there you know you're not on your own you know people do care and and and secondly to attempt to to show a
01:07:58 secondly to attempt to to show a demonstration of strength um sufficient enough in numbers to put pressure on on
01:08:14 enough in numbers to put pressure on on on the local authority to to close down the the the the headquarters yeah yes because my understanding is that up until
01:08:15 until then Kenneth Clark had said it wasn't possible like efforts to get it closed down had failed is that right yes but I'm sure that that a way could have been found to to close it down um you know um
01:08:36 found to to close it down um you know um yeah um was it your understanding at all that there was a plan to burn the Bookshop
01:08:41 Bookshop down absolutely not that would be I mean nowhere in the history of the swp is
01:08:52 nowhere in the history of the swp is there any suggestion of arson being you know let violence let alone arson um I also understand that it was fortified like Fort Knox and it's not like something that you can go up to open the letter box and shove some petel down that would be absolutely um absurd and and completely
01:09:08 absolutely um absurd and and completely counterproductive we were there to show solidarity and to show and and to show numbers that how many people were on the
01:09:23 numbers that how many people were on the on the side of fairness and peace um and not on the side of hatred and division as the BMP were and were you aware of any plans by the B
01:09:36 and were you aware of any plans by the B Sorry by the swp to Riot or to ferment a riot I mean that that would have been that the S was quite disciplined you know that would absolutely have not been a part of of of anything I I know like for instance like no that no
01:09:47 for instance like no that no investigation had shown a link between um demonstrations where there had been rioting and the swp for instance the uh the old tax Riot you know there was an investigation to to which attempted to
01:10:09 investigation to to which attempted to link the swp to that VI and no link was found and did you hear of anyone who planned in the swp who planned to physically attack members of the BMP if they came across them not in the swp I mean there may have been Splinter groups but definitely not in the swp that was
01:10:30 but definitely not in the swp that was or the ANL those were Mass mobilizations pce open groups and that would and you know we
01:10:32 know we were we were not violent we were not trained in violence we had no History of Violence we weren't criminals so no absolutely will you privy be to any
01:10:50 absolutely will you privy be to any jokey comments or throwaway comments about burning down the Bookshop or destroying the Bookshop not me personally no not me person I mean I mean who knows if people are in the pub and have had a few drinks if they might
01:11:02 and have had a few drinks if they might someone might say oh we should go and do this but you know I but that I was certainly not privy to anything like
01:11:14 certainly not privy to anything like that and I also find it hard to believe and also I think Chris bamry would not have been involved in that because he was the Central Committee yeah thank you um B we'll go to your experiences on the day well actually just before that were you aware before you went on the March that the
01:11:30 before you went on the March that the March route had been diverted that there had been a section 12 notice forbidding the progress of the March actually pass the Bookshop were you aware of that in
01:11:41 you aware of that in advance uh no no because I don't I didn't I no I didn't know that um so when you went you thought you would be able to the March would be going past the Bookshop is that your
01:11:52 going past the Bookshop is that your understanding um I think so yeah yes right um now you were there weren't you
01:12:03 right um now you were there weren't you be yeah I was definitely there yes I was there without the children sorry I was there without the children without your children yeah um by this point so this is the 10th of October 93 were you no
01:12:16 is the 10th of October 93 were you no longer in a relationship with Bobby with Trevor Morris at this time no I don't think so we were still friends right um but I don't think we were the I think the relationship had ended by then did you go to the March
01:12:28 you go to the March together
01:12:33 together no uh did you go with a group of people yes I would have gone with my local branch right and was Chris bamry in that group
01:12:45 group um I I would don't I don't remember okay um can you remember how you got there can you remember which station you came into I can't remember that I'm sorry don't worry it a long time ago it was were you surprised when you arrived by
01:12:59 were you surprised when you arrived by the Numbers who were there the number of people who turned up I mean we had work quite hard to to build that you know we were um you know
01:13:12 build that you know we were um you know we we were uh you know promoting amongst the whole community and there was a lot of different organizations as well there you it wasn't just the swp and the and the ANL there was a lot of organizations
01:13:26 the ANL there was a lot of organizations and trade unions building for this March so um I expected it would and also I think there had been other smaller marches hadn't there so there was a lot of buildup for and there was you know
01:13:39 of buildup for and there was you know there was um you know people were really upset by those murders um and there was no end in sight to them
01:13:51 yeah I'll bring up the map again just to help with my questions um again it's reference ucpi 37118
01:13:59 uh page seven please this is C1 sir um that again shows that this is a map from 1993 and then if we could move please to page
01:14:10 please to page nine at the bottom quarter of the map if you look B at the map square that sits just above the letter B at the
01:14:22 sits just above the letter B at the bottom can you see what I'm talking about
01:14:28 no because there's a M25 Main Road a to head in the front of it oh um I'm I'm sorry I'm not sure what I'm looking at no sorry I mean it is confusing and I I actually don't have it I think it it's page nine so the bottom quarter there's
01:14:42 page nine so the bottom quarter there's there's a letter B on the bottom row oh okay right and if you look just above there yes can you see that shows I think it shows the junction a wick Lane yeah AER Wickham
01:14:53 junction a wick Lane yeah AER Wickham Lane Oak Hampton cresant and LOD Hill and you can see plumstead Cemetery the V now can you explain I mean use the map if it helps B but from what you
01:15:06 map if it helps B but from what you recall your progress on the day on the March can you explain what you experienced so so what I remember was
01:15:21 experienced so so what I remember was that um I think we met on upper Wickam Lane yeah um and there was a large it was a huge March like 50 or 60,000 people and we walked down um the lane and then um I mean it wasn't a lane it's a big road yeah but
01:15:36 a lane it's a big road yeah but um and then at the front I think I was like somewhere in the middle of the March I don't think I was at the front or the back because I'll just tell you what I remember and I don't really remember anything else that um at a certain point the junction was
01:15:53 um at a certain point the junction was um cut off by a row of sort of heavenly armed
01:15:55 armed Squad sort of um police offic and um police horses yeah and like suddenly there was sort of fear and pandemonium
01:16:09 there was sort of fear and pandemonium and Judy Waterson um who had a megaphone was asking people to sit down she she was always very good at sort of calming at that or or clarifying situation um
01:16:22 at that or or clarifying situation um and and I I do love a sit down um March you know partly because you've been marching for a while but also because you know it's it's uh it's kind of both powerful and passive um and um you get
01:16:39 powerful and passive um and um you get to chat to people and um and that didn't last very long I think we sat down but almost
01:16:40 almost immediately the um the I think the the horses started charging we were forced
01:16:54 horses started charging we were forced down to the left right um which was must be that road Lodge Hall lill and lodg Hill yeah
01:16:56 Hill yeah um and I just remember running and then jumping into the cemeter climbing a wall and jumping the cemetry and just being immensely relieved because it was
01:17:07 immensely relieved because it was terrifying and the people who were who who didn't manage to jump over the wall into the cemetery were getting beaten up
01:17:20 into the cemetery were getting beaten up um so I think I was I I was lucky but it was it was really terrifying um not the most terrifying March that I've been on in my life because I was at um Geneva in um 200 one where somebody was
01:17:37 Geneva in um 200 one where somebody was killed but always my experience marches is the less police officers there are the quieter and Karma they are and in fact I remember sort of in during the um in the you know the years of the
01:17:53 um in the you know the years of the labor government where sort of community policing became much much more um you know was was promoted rather than you know the the met so often like you you
01:18:04 know the the met so often like you you would go on demonstrations and there'd hardly be any police officers and if they were they were like friendly Community police officers and there was never any violence so um just the presence of a large number of police officers I think in itself or in the
01:18:25 officers I think in itself or in the case of Geneva you know the Army it just in itself causes the violence not the not the demonstrators can I ask this then be so when you approached this Junction was there a change in the mood then did it change from being a certain kind of March to a very different kind of
01:18:40 of experience that your experience it went from um from peaceful but passionate yeah um too chaotic and um frightening terrifying really and I mean obviously it was chaotic so it
01:18:53 mean obviously it was chaotic so it would have been hard to understand quite what was going on but do you at the time did you have any understanding of why it suddenly became so chaotic did you attribute that to the fact that people had nowhere to go or to
01:19:11 fact that people had nowhere to go or to the actions of the police or to a sudden hostile mood taking over what what did you understand to be the reasons for that chaos yes the actions of the police and the fact that we were hemmed in because not only did they um block the
01:19:29 because not only did they um block the route that the March planned take um but then they blocked off the the exit so you know we went down the lodge Hill yeah and that was blocked off as well so it was a it was a kettling situation but kettling of a massive amount of people
01:19:45 kettling of a massive amount of people yeah um with only one exit I think there was houses on the other side um and and so that really it was only one exit was into the
01:19:51 into the cemetery and when you say you had to jump over a can you explain what you were why you did that so what what why
01:20:03 were why you did that so what what why were you driven to take that action as it
01:20:05 it were I
01:20:06 were I think that would you know was where the I can't remember why we just that seemed to be the place to go for safety and you said you said earlier
01:20:21 safety and you said you said earlier that people were being attacked by whom who who was attacking whom um well the police were charging um the police were charging on you know where
01:20:35 police were charging on you know where they blocked off the road right um and blocking the other side I'm not sure whether they were charging from the other side as well right okay and did you witness what else did you see the police doing if anything I mean apart
01:20:46 police doing if anything I mean apart from the the Mounted Police were there police on foot as well um oh yes yeah yeah I mean the they were um truning people there was there
01:20:59 were um truning people there was there was blood everywhere know people who I I didn't I I didn't stay to kind of see the um you know the the battlefield I think um that we sort of got way as fast as as we could from through brumstead
01:21:15 as as we could from through brumstead but I could certainly see people um you know the this um you know bit the the definitely the police force
01:21:26 bit the the definitely the police force is charging and so on so saw the police horses charging byy you say you didn't see you didn't witness people being trenched by the police I did w I did w at the beginning of it but I didn't see the sort of at the end where you know
01:21:44 the sort of at the end where you know people described you know whe the where people were lying seriously wounded um I'm afraid I wasn't right I don't remember that there
01:21:53 be just on to another topic but it's linked um um you say in your witness statement about Trevor Morris I don't again I don't think we need to go but I'll if you want to look at it do terine I'll bring it up but you say about him
01:22:08 I'll bring it up but you say about him that I believe he agitated violence on behalf of the police at Welling can you elaborate on what you mean by that well in his um in his statement in his witness
01:22:24 um in his statement in his witness statement he claims to have been the person
01:22:25 person to have given this what I consider fictional um in Intel soal um that there was this plan to to burn down the um the BMP
01:22:45 to to burn down the um the BMP headquarters that's the only you know so I was there so obviously I feel very strongly about it I remember how terrified it was but the fact that um he claims to he claims this information
01:22:58 claims to he claims this information as his own it's the the only part of the state where you I definitely not only does he say I was part of spying on this campaign but I did this and I gave this Intel um and that he seems proud of it
01:23:13 Intel um and that he seems proud of it and I therefore think that he if if that if that's true that that's the information that he gave to his minders then I hold him responsible for for the the injuries the terrible injuries is
01:23:25 the injuries the terrible injuries is that day 72 people I think including um 12 police officers were um were injured you know I think were injured to the extent that they had to go to hospital or you know not not just cuts and
01:23:37 or you know not not just cuts and bruises but were seriously injured so if I understand you correctly you mean that because he exaggerated the threat it led to this over policing this aggressive policing which then led to the made up I
01:23:51 policing which then led to the made up I think he made up the threat because it's completely inconsistent with anything that I know and and and yeah of of of anything that the swp would do so I do
01:24:04 anything that the swp would do so I do hold him responsible and I just wonder how conflicted he must feel about that I know that he was living as his inauthentic self in in his other identity as this spy and I know
01:24:17 other identity as this spy and I know that there must have been an awful lot of internal conflict but I can't see how he can not how he seems proud of of this um of
01:24:32 how he seems proud of of this um of doing this of being responsible for for this it's beyond belief be in in your opening statement you comment that the only person you know who went weaponized to any demo was
01:24:44 know who went weaponized to any demo was Bobby himself who I seem to remember was always armed with a sharp umbrella which I know at least one comrade pulled him
01:24:55 I know at least one comrade pulled him up about yes so can does it follow from that that you attended demonstrations with Trevor Morris when he brought with him a sharp
01:25:07 him a sharp umbrella uh that was well he uh that was um information from um that I I heard from another right okay so not something you saw yourself and yes don't mention the comrades I have said I I
01:25:18 mention the comrades I have said I I understood this rather than that I saw this okay so this is but can I just ask just brief what did so the comrade had seen
01:25:27 seen this yes and had and told him that he shouldn't be doing this um but was it his understanding that this was being used as a weapon this sharp umbrella
01:25:41 used as a weapon this sharp umbrella what was the reason for him bringing it with fine I don't know but it it could be seen as it could be seen as one fine fine um I'm just wondering if that's a convenient time for a break or is it a
01:25:53 convenient time for a break or is it a bit earlier just I'm about to move on to another topic yes and the next topic I think is going to take a little time is exactly yes um we we normally have a break of 15 minutes in the middle of any morning session to enable the
01:26:08 morning session to enable the transcriber to have the breaks which he she need um we're going to have that break now would you be ready to resume again in 15 minutes time yeah thank you then we'll break for 15
01:26:23 minutes
01:43:52 e e
01:44:46 B we're going to move on to a new topic now which is your relationship with Trevor morus who you knew as Bobby um is it correct that you met around March
01:44:58 1992 I I I'm pretty sure it was actually my um birthday in March 1992 my 32nd birthday okay um and you met at your first swp meeting is that right yes and that was the dolon
01:45:13 right yes and that was the dolon branch yes and you said it was a memorable date it was your birthday and also I understand that this was the first time you'd gone out without your
01:45:26 first time you'd gone out without your children since your marriage had broken up is that correct yes I I didn't have any babysitters or any options for night out so yeah yes but this night you had arranged babysitting so you could go out
01:45:42 arranged babysitting so you could go out so it was quite a big deal for you going out it was um can I ask what was your emotional state at this time in your life
01:45:57 well I was in um I I don't count myself as a vulnerable person I I think I'm a very resilient and a strong person but I I was in probably the most vulnerable point of My Life i' um left a
01:46:12 point of My Life i' um left a relationship uh marriage which had um come where there had been domestic violence ultimately um just 6 months before and I don't want to elaborate on that because it has respect for my
01:46:28 that because it has respect for my children absolutely absolutely but you were feeling vulnerable and you just emerged from something very difficult
01:46:30 difficult um you say in your witness statement that at this meeting you got talking with Bobby or Trevor Morris can I ask
01:46:42 with Bobby or Trevor Morris can I ask how how did that conversation get struck up
01:46:44 up um if you can remember I just I I mean it was probably afterwards we all went down to the bar where the um where the meeting was and
01:46:58 meeting was and um everyone was talking to everyone and uh and I think we uh we stuck up a a bit of a a bond
01:47:10 we uh we stuck up a a bit of a a bond um uh quite quite quickly we seemed to um I remember talking quite a lot and you lot there was a lot of things that it appeared that we had in common which sadly I understand is actually was kind of a bit of a ploy for undercover
01:47:21 of a bit of a ploy for undercover officers was to to find things that they
01:47:34 officers was to to find things that they had in common sometimes fictional things um mainly fictional things with the um person that they were were were using uh was he friendly he was very friendly person yes and so is it right if I understand you correctly that you had a sort of
01:47:48 you correctly that you had a sort of chemistry from the wordo you sort of Click yeah yeah um did you get the impression from this meeting that he was interested in you romantically did he give you that
01:48:01 you romantically did he give you that impression um I I I think he gave me a lift back and I think the relationship started quite soon after that I don't think that um no not if not immediately
01:48:17 think that um no not if not immediately within the next week or so right okay do you feel that he instigated the relationship b or was it entirely m
01:48:29 um he seemed very keen
01:48:30 keen [Music]
01:48:31 [Music] um so uh yes probably I mean I didn't jump on top of him um but he didn't jump on top of me
01:48:46 him um but he didn't jump on top of me either you know it was a a talking sort of friendly sort of relationship to start with and um you know entirely consensual although I don't believe it was consens now that I know he was not his
01:49:00 consens now that I know he was not his authentic self but someone else but at the time you considered it to be consensual yes um now I understand this was the first relationship you'd had since you'd split up from your husband since youd left your husband so is it fair to say was
01:49:14 your husband so is it fair to say was this quite a big deal for you entering into a
01:49:15 into a relationship it it was massive because I
01:49:34 relationship it it was massive because I was navigating my way as a single mother I had no I I never envisaged being that I would be a single mother um and was not part of the plan at all um and I thought I would never have a relationship again until my children grew up um that no one would be interested in me so I was very flattered and it made me feel that I wasn't out
01:49:51 and it made me feel that I wasn't out that I wasn't sort of uh noggo area you know with my um having such young children and yeah and I was physically attracted to him
01:50:03 attracted to him right you you've referred to being in a violent relationship in your marriage without asking you to disclose any more about that did he know that had you told Trevor Morris that that had happened to
01:50:18 Trevor Morris that that had happened to you I'm sure that I don't remember that conversation but I'm sure that he that um that he would have known that because we talked about everything and can you recall be roughly when he would have
01:50:29 recall be roughly when he would have become aware of that was that something you told him before you started a relationship with him or was it over the course of your during your relationship um I would have thought that because that was significant um
01:50:42 that because that was significant um that was how I had got to be where I was at that time I think that I would have told him very quickly although probably not presented myself as as a victim because I that's not my by yeah um the
01:51:00 because I that's not my by yeah um the way I I work but but he would have known I I remember you know quite quickly getting
01:51:04 getting um talking about quite intimate things for instance you know he told me very quickly that he had um that he had children the same age as mine and that they were also um mixed race children that was his um that was his
01:51:17 children that was his um that was his story um he told me that he um that his family came from Jamaica and obviously I have a big connection with um with
01:51:28 have a big connection with um with Jamaica and just been living there so um you know we had those those things in in common yeah um and obviously you know
01:51:39 common yeah um and obviously you know the fact that he was new to Hackney and
01:51:50 the fact that he was new to Hackney and he was new to the swp I think he'd only joined um the year before um and obviously I was also a new and we were excited by the politics yeah that were going on yeah so you felt you had a lot in common
01:52:02 had a lot in common and so if I understand correctly you were open with him you were very open about your background and your feelings generally and your
01:52:15 generally and your experiences I don't know any way but to be my authentic self I would I would find it impossible to be someone else or to pretend to be someone else which which is partly probably why I it didn't enter my mind that he would not be who
01:52:40 enter my mind that he would not be who he said he was or that anybody would not be who they say they are it's beyond my understanding yeah um I just want to bring up his statement uh Trevor Morris's so it's
01:52:48 35076 and it's page 155 paragraph 204a
01:52:58 B this goes to what he told you about himself or an aspect of what he told you um if I read the final sentence in that
01:53:15 paragraph So It's the final sentence he says I maintained my cover story about having an estranged family in Germany and my intent to get back with my German wife and family hence I believe it was mutually understood that we would keep
01:53:29 mutually understood that we would keep the relationship at a low level rather than let it develop into something long-term with prospects and then if we could just go to paragraph 157
01:53:47 please sorry I haven't put the page number which is unhelpful uh well don't worry I'll read I'll read what it says it says I had always made her aware that I had been been married and had a wife back in Germany that I intended to reunite with so I did not ever suggest
01:54:02 reunite with so I did not ever suggest this could be a long-term relationship and she likewise was of the same view now can I ask you about this is this what he told you about his relationship history absolutely not I
01:54:13 relationship history absolutely not I would not have got into a relationship with a married man he told me that the relationship was over because of a a
01:54:26 relationship was over because of a a sexual indiscretion of is which I won't repeat um because it was really quite shocking um and that he and that his wife had had chucked him out um and that it was over the sexi indiscretion was so
01:54:39 it was over the sexi indiscretion was so great that there would be no possibility of uh of of reuniting it was it was it was quite shocking um I would not in my vulnerable state have got into a
01:54:50 in my vulnerable state have got into a relationship with a man who intended to get back with his wife I would certainly not have got into a relationship with someone who I knew was married I didn't know that he was married um and the
01:55:09 know that he was married um and the story about the German wife I think was completely untr untrue um until I read his statement I was absolutely devastated I was devastated for his wife and I was devastated for his children
01:55:20 and I was devastated for his children that was was my first reaction when I when I read that oh my God he was married to some somebody that whole time and hardly saw his children but saw my children um I thought it was sad and
01:55:33 children um I thought it was sad and shocking B Jenny actually refers to what he told her about the sexual indiscretion and she says that he told her that he slept with his wife's sister can I ask is that what he told
01:55:51 can I ask is that what he told you he told I well if you don't want to say don't worry I don't want to but it was along those lines but worse right okay
01:56:04 um it didn't include children I have to say that right okay but it was in the same ballpark sleeping with his wife's sister
01:56:19 yeah can I ask you when did he tell you about this at what stage was this that this information came out um not and immediately um I think we were you know I was kind of in the in love sort of
01:56:30 I was kind of in the in love sort of stage because um I think uh if he told me that immediately I would have been very suspicious of him right but we were probably a couple of months into it and I was
01:56:41 I was really um emotionally involved with him
01:56:53 really um emotionally involved with him yeah so what was your understanding when you entered started a relationship with him what was your understanding of his status I mean did you think he was completely single or did you know that he had an ex-wife what what did you believe to be the situation he had he
01:57:08 believe to be the situation he had he had an ex-wife in Germany right and with um and two children who were the same age as as my children um and that he
01:57:19 age as as my children um and that he used as a reason for you know he wasn't very involved with my children sort of retrospectively I'm so relieved about that yeah um but he said it was because his children that my children reminded me of his children and he found it all
01:57:32 me of his children and he found it all very painful because he was sort of you know because he was away from them and they were in Germany he did disappear one time um after a few months into the relationship um and we were supposed to spend the weekend together and um you
01:57:44 spend the weekend together and um you know in those days there was no mobile phones or anything there was just um he a pager the person with the person who on the other end of the page and must have got so fed up with me that
01:57:55 must have got so fed up with me that weekend of phoning and leaving endless messages for him I didn't know what else to do I was really worried about him and then I I started questioning myself
01:58:08 then I I started questioning myself because I I thought God actually what do I know about this man he'd never taken me to his house he he he didn't he wasn't he didn't I'd never met anyone in his family I'd never met any friends of his outside the party
01:58:19 his outside the party um and and and I I suddenly thought who who do I contact to find out yeah where he is he you know I I I don't know his
01:58:31 he is he you know I I I don't know his his colleagues no one and who knew him from the party knew where he was um and it was and it was then you know when he did come back sort of on the Monday and he was just very jovial and brushed it off he said oh you want to
01:58:44 brushed it off he said oh you want to see where I live oh of course you can see where because I I was questioning then not on the basis are you a spy but basically who are you right and um and
01:58:56 basically who are you right and um and he took me straight away to his um the place that that he lived yeah and um although um there was nothing sort of very personal about his place it was
01:59:11 very personal about his place it was just a bedsit yeah and I I think it was in in Tottenham as well I think I want was saying why are you in Hackney and you're living in Tottenham um but he also gave me an address uh it gave me a phone number in Germany and said you know if you do if you know if you are
01:59:22 know if you do if you know if you are worried about me and I've had to go Bo you can contact this number and I still have that number I've never actually phoned it I have this probably just a random selection of numbers because he would know I I'm not I'm just not a
01:59:33 would know I I'm not I'm just not a suspicious person I just take everyone at face value and and and and I see the best in people and I didn't want to
01:59:45 best in people and I didn't want to think that there might be anything um suspicious about him so I was um I was satisfied that um you know
01:59:56 was um I was satisfied that um you know when when I went on the flimsy evidence that he had a bedsit in Tottenham and and and a dress somewhere in colone I thought oh okay that relieved me and he he didn't do that again he didn't disappear again right but that was he
02:00:08 disappear again right but that was he told me his son had as an asthma attack and he had to get in his car and drive over and you know I had small children and I know I would go to the ends of the Earth for them so um so so I accepted
02:00:19 Earth for them so um so so I accepted that that would be the very best reason that you could disappear yeah and when he so he did just disappear is that correct like you had no you were expecting him to come around to your
02:00:31 expecting him to come around to your flat but then he just didn't turn up and you didn't hear from him until when the I think it was the Monday after and when you say you were questioning who he was were you suspicious were you what what
02:00:42 were you suspicious were you what what was going through your mind at that time were you thinking he was married or that he'd been lying to you about who he was can you remember I think I just blame
02:00:54 can you remember I think I just blame myself really I just thought oh you know what what am I doing getting so emotionally involved with somebody who hasn't ever taken me to their house who I actually really um you know who
02:01:06 I actually really um you know who although I feel like I know a lot about him because we talked and talked you know um that actually I don't yeah but I would never think along the lines of you know is he is he a spy I would just um no that
02:01:20 is he a spy I would just um no that didn't cross your mind at the time um just jumping back be just again you have covered this but just to make it clear if you had thought there were a chance that he that he
02:01:35 there were a chance that he that he wanted to reconcile with his wife would you have entered into a relationship with him no absolutely not um you mentioned in your witness statement some other things that he told you about his background that he lived in oldum that
02:01:47 background that he lived in oldum that his mother lived in oldum sorry and that they weren't close you've talked about I can't remember if it was his mother or but I think he said his family was in in oldum I remembered that because it was a
02:02:04 oldum I remembered that because it was a place that I that I know okay and did he generally did sorry sorry to interrupt did he reveal lots of other bits of information about himself I mean was he quite
02:02:10 quite forthcoming um not about his sort of childhood and background just that his family originally was from
02:02:22 just that his family originally was from Jamaica right and I think he must of you know my immediate question would be oh which part and I think he um that he did specify what part right but um he talked more about his experience in in Germany
02:02:36 more about his experience in in Germany um he told me he was a real sort of one for the ladies in in Germany um that that and he indicated he had been he
02:02:48 that and he indicated he had been he had had other he' slep with other women when he was with his his wife and and that was was facilitated by being a DJ
02:03:08 that was was facilitated by being a DJ and sort of meeting um uh a German women and that he was kind of a little bit of a you know being the only black man in the that sort in the place that he he was that he was um that he was very popular right okay did he portray that behavior did he did he was he boasting when he said that or was that was he expressing sort of
02:03:23 or was that was he expressing sort of Shame about the way he conducted himself supposedly in Germany I don't think he had any Shame about it no right um if we just look now about the amount of time that you spent together uh you say in your witness statement that in
02:03:36 say in your witness statement that in the first few months he spent several nights a week at your flat was that most of the week then be
02:03:48 flat was that most of the week then be that he was staying with you that sorry maybe three or four nights a week yes and you've answered this but just to clarify always is at your flat never at his flat yeah and would he come over in the evening in the
02:04:02 the evening in the afternoon what was the routine assuming there was one well the the evening because he didn't really want to be involved with my children and then he
02:04:17 involved with my children and then he disappeared in the morning right before they were out of bed yeah um now don't reveal the ages of your children obviously but he says in his witness statement that your children were four and five but my understanding is that that's inaccurate that they were younger than that is that correct
02:04:29 than that is that correct yes you also say in your witness statement that your eldest child does remember him being around so even though he kept a low profile there was some interaction between him and your
02:04:44 interaction between him and your children yes and would that generally be in the evening yes right I don't remember sort of doing
02:04:57 right I don't remember sort of doing family things um with him apart from you know that they'd meet him on paper sale or things like that so someone who was familiar to them but you know that was another um reason I suppose why the relationship kind of petered out that
02:05:08 relationship kind of petered out that wasn't what I was what I was looking for you know I I wanted to be with with somebody who would be supportive and you know and and um interact with the children and and
02:05:21 um interact with the children and and you know help me and do stuff together you know
02:05:24 you know and he very much gave you the impression he wasn't interested in doing that yeah no well we will explore that in a little more detail um you say in your witness statement B
02:05:38 statement B that he was familiar with your children but he didn't develop a relationship with him so is that essentially this idea that he did see them he he obviously knew who they were but there was no
02:05:52 was no great effort to bond with them no um you also say in your witness statement that the fact that your children were so small meant that you were not able to go out much which gave him certain
02:06:03 him certain freedoms can you just explain what you mean by
02:06:05 mean by that so I think you know you know normally in a relationship if I don't know he was doing DJing at a party or something like
02:06:20 doing DJing at a party or something like that um you know I might have gone along but that wasn't just ever on the cards because yeah I was at home with my children so um you know he could s i and I couldn't um you
02:06:31 I couldn't um you know yeah go and look for him you know I didn't when you have small children you're you're at home with them yeah so he was able to sort of go out on the Seas without you because you were necessarily quite housebound yeah
02:06:44 were necessarily quite housebound yeah um now in terms of the progress of the relationship B you say that you became well you were very fond of him and that
02:06:55 well you were very fond of him and that you initially fell in love with him can I ask how how far into the relationship did you begin to feel you were falling in love with him um quite soon
02:07:08 him um quite soon probably yeah and did you make that clear to
02:07:14 him um he would know that I was that I was that I was into him although you know I was careful not to make a fool of myself or um yeah but as
02:07:31 make a fool of myself or um yeah but as far as you could tell he was aware that your feelings for him were deepening well you know it was mutually was my boyfriend I was his girlfriend everybody knew that we were in a
02:07:42 everybody knew that we were in a relationship well that was going to be my next question is did you feel that this was reciprocated that he felt the same
02:07:51 same way I did yes and why did you think that what gave you that
02:08:01 impression um you know he called me his girlfriend but I suppose you felt like you had a close bond is that fair to say yeah um and at this stage is it correct
02:08:14 yeah um and at this stage is it correct that you thought the relationship had a future is that right yes in the early days yeah yeah um did you ever discuss that with him did
02:08:26 did you ever discuss that with him did you ever talk about the future with him at all in this phase um not sort of no should we move in together or should we get married or no
02:08:39 get married or no right um just returning to the incident that you
02:08:43 that you mentioned not long ago be this this matter of him disappearing for the
02:08:53 weekend just before that incident is it correct to say that you trusted him that part of the reason that your love was your feelings for him were flourishing was because you felt there was trust in the relationship is that fair to say I I
02:09:06 the relationship is that fair to say I I had no reason not to trust him I thought yeah yeah um and then this incident happened that you've described where you were expecting him to turn up to spend the weekend with you he didn't turn up
02:09:33 the weekend with you he didn't turn up and so was this the first time time that you had any cause to mistrust him or to suddenly ask yourself questions about him as a person and his suitability should we say
02:09:39 yes you said in your when you were talking about this in your witness statement you said that he calmed you because when you saw him again you were obviously very distressed did you make it clear to him how distressed you'd
02:09:50 it clear to him how distressed you'd been I I did because I told him I you know I'd find up hospitals and and and things I was I I I mean whoever operated the pagent would have been able to tell
02:10:04 the pagent would have been able to tell him how distressed I was and how did he respond to that did he take that on board do you think well I understood that he did because he he um you know produced a solution quite quickly come and see my
02:10:23 solution quite quickly come and see my place here's an address you know and I I was naive you know I I was naive and I want wanted to believe that and I naively was
02:10:30 satisfied you say the way you describe it in your witness you say he calmed me and invited me to his bedsit in Tottenham to allay my suspicions so how you expressed to him the fact you were suspicious of him I just said who are
02:10:42 suspicious of him I just said who are you even you know it's it's only when you have a kind of Crisis like that that you start to ask yourself at least
02:10:54 you start to ask yourself at least that's me yeah was his re I mean we know that he took you to his bedsit but also verbally what did he say was he very dismissive did he treat it like a joke can you
02:11:04 can you remember um yeah I think he just I think he he
02:11:06 he he he
02:11:07 he um I can't remember exactly but I but I I I think he sort of laughed and said oh
02:11:21 I I think he sort of laughed and said oh of course I'm who I am you know you know me and I wanted to believe that so yeah that's understandable and the fact of going to his flat did delay your suspicions can I ask why did that elay your suspicions just purely because you knew he wasn't married or what was um I it didn't cross
02:11:43 married or what was um I it didn't cross my mind that he might be married because um you know he was always around and because he had this you know quite believable story about um his ex-wife in in Germany and so on um
02:11:57 ex-wife in in Germany and so on um but I don't know it was just it was just you know I I felt you know I brought this person into my house and my bed and my home and my family um and I felt yeah
02:12:14 my home and my family um and I felt yeah um you know I blame myself because my my children were so young you know and I and and
02:12:19 and and vulnerable but also you had formed if I understand it correctly you had formed an emotional attachment to so it was disconcerting to suddenly yeah find yourself not knowing where he
02:12:32 was just touching briefly be on his relationship with your children again you've you've mentioned this yourself um you refer to a sort of gear change in your relationship and this relates to his relationship with your children you
02:12:49 his relationship with your children you mentioned in your witness statement that you sensed that your children were an annoyance to to Bobby to Trevor Morris we've talked about this matter of avoidance was there anything else he did or said that led you to believe that
02:13:01 or said that led you to believe that your children annoyed him no I think it was just a a feeling and um and that's a very good way of putting it the the gear change and it probably happened about
02:13:14 change and it probably happened about six months right the relationship where I you know I found that my um that my youngest child used to wake up in um in the night and and I would sort of take him um into the sitting room and kind of
02:13:26 him um into the sitting room and kind of try and keep him quiet keep him quiet um and and then just suddenly thinking what am I doing my child is much more important than you know than than this
02:13:43 important than you know than than this man I you know I should be protecting my children from um from Bobby not Bobby from my children yeah um and there was definitely a gear change at that point Point yeah so you took stock and thought
02:13:54 Point yeah so you took stock and thought actually this is not a long this doesn't have long-term potential is that fair to say yes yeah did you discuss that with
02:14:05 say yes yeah did you discuss that with Bobby with Trevor Morris or was it just an
02:14:06 an unspoken
02:14:17 shift I think we kind of split up and then just gifted back together again but in a more casual way okay and when you say you split I mean was that acrimonious at all was it how how did that come
02:14:29 about if you can remember think there was tears
02:14:33 was tears or um I think it was just like I can't I can't do this on this on this level I need to put my children first and this is not this relationship is not facilitating um me putting my children
02:14:49 facilitating um me putting my children first and I think it was kind of um oh okay then but you know but it wasn't like he was out of my life it was just a more casual basis because we still enjoyed each other's company um and we enjoyed each
02:15:06 other's company um and we enjoyed each other's intimacy yeah so but it was on a different basis [Music]
02:15:08 [Music] then when it changed in this way did you spend less time with each other did it affect the
02:15:19 time with each other did it affect the amount of time you spent with each other yeah would he still come around to your flat
02:15:21 flat yes but um you know not you once a week or once a fortnite something like that but still relative still quite regularly
02:15:36 yeah so and we were still friends yeah and we were still comrades and we were you know it together in the branch but I didn't really feel like I was his girlfriend anymore right okay um and
02:15:47 girlfriend anymore right okay um and there were no is it fair to say that I mean I infer from what you said that it was amicable that there weren't hard there was no bitterness no no I just I just put want to put my
02:16:02 no no I just I just put want to put my children first fine fine so in a way a a sort of relationship continue but it wasn't of the same emotional intensity as it had been before yeah okay um in his witness statement he describes it as
02:16:20 his witness statement he describes it as an onoff relationship actually no not in his witness apologies that's how he described it to Jenny as an onoff relationship is that accurate do you think that's a fair description I suppose so you know it was on until that time when what as
02:16:33 it was on until that time when what as you describe the change of gear happened and then it was more on off fine yes okay for those six months so for six months it was like a proper relationship then the following six months more casual
02:16:49 Yes actually just something this sorry this is a little bit off topic can I just ask be when you were with him did you talk about politics a lot mostly mostly because we were both
02:17:04 lot mostly mostly because we were both at we were both newbies in in the party so you know it was and it was what had brought us together in the first place and he did he come across as a convincing a committed
02:17:16 convincing a committed socialist well I think in it's it with the benefit of hindsight it's um I can see that he was quite naive in some ways um you know he was
02:17:29 some ways um you know he was quite uh you know he wasn't sort of well read about he didn't really have a great understanding of the left but he was very interested in the um in the
02:17:44 very interested in the um in the daytoday the you know the the daytoday things that you know the the campaigns
02:17:56 things that you know the the campaigns the demonstrations the ANL particularly because he put a lot of his time into the to the ANL um so yes so our um you know retrospectively I can see that our discussions were probably not as
02:18:08 discussions were probably not as theoretical um as somebody who was an impassioned Marxist might yeah um might present himself yes
02:18:22 yes um you say he never met your family and he showed no interest in that was that something did you ask him to meet your family was that something you raised as a
02:18:30 a possibility I probably did because I'm close to my family and um they did they didn't live in London though right F and when you say he showed no interest was
02:18:48 when you say he showed no interest was that a blank refusal to meet your family or was it more just a vibe that you got off him I think it was probably just a Vibe yes I don't remember um but it would be us that I didn't introduce him to when you were a
02:18:59 to when you were a couple in that first six Monon period did you go to meetings together yeah it was revolved around sort of politics yeah and did you go I didn't really do anything I didn't
02:19:10 didn't really do anything I didn't really have a social life just because of um you know the being um not having much money and sure being um with small children um I did I couldn't afford to
02:19:25 children um I did I couldn't afford to go on holidays and things like that so you know that really was I suppose my social life at that time okay so you'd go to meetings with him and you go to the pub after the meetings with him and would you attend I mean I know again
02:19:37 would you attend I mean I know again you're saying you couldn't go on many demonstrations but if you did go on demonstrations and protests would you go together as a couple I mean I can't actually
02:19:49 couple I mean I can't actually remember I mean a lot of the things that I was involved in he was more involved inl
02:19:52 inl and lot of the things that I was more involved with much more um around Community stuff so much more kind of local campaigns I don't remember him um you know campaigning to keep the nurseries open that wasn't really his
02:20:07 nurseries open that wasn't really his Mojo he was more into kind of you know the big stuff yeah I suppose what I'm getting at is when you went to meetings together was
02:20:18 when you went to meetings together was it did you go as a couple would it have been obvious to the people at those meetings that you were a couple I I mean I think everyone knew that we were a couple um when you say he had the
02:20:29 were a couple um when you say he had the car he had he had the car so he probably did take me to meetings um but we weren't I mean that's kind of not really the way people are in you know in in
02:20:42 the way people are in you know in in that we it wasn't you know people had relationships me but may they they sat next to each other and um you know did everything together yeah yeah but in
02:20:53 everything together yeah yeah but in your social scene in that sixth month period people would have been aware you were seeing each other do you think is that fair yes um I mean again I'm
02:21:04 that fair yes um I mean again I'm inferring from what you say the fact he had a car was that quite a rare thing to have a car
02:21:16 right you say in your witness statement and you've you've said it earlier in your evidence be that from what you saw he Trevor Morris experienced only support and kindness from people in the swp and you say that
02:21:29 from people in the swp and you say that we likes him a lot and we you've talked about how you feel but how when you say we who do you mean do you mean your comrades from the branch yeah certainly my friends who
02:21:41 branch yeah certainly my friends who were comrades yes um he was he he was friendly he had a very engaging smile and engaging love um he
02:21:52 um he was I mean he was quite he was quite funny and I mean he he kind of presented himself a little bit like citizen Smith
02:22:04 himself a little bit like citizen Smith for those who are over my age who would who might recognize yeah that that he wore a sort of a ber and uh with a as I remember sort of red um red star or something um almost like a parody of a
02:22:22 something um almost like a parody of a revolutionary socialists in a way and um and it and so we he he was quite funny you know he did have good sense of humor and that was sort of part of his um his Persona right that he didn't in retrospect it seems quite cheap
02:22:36 retrospect it seems quite cheap but uh so that he didn't take himself entirely seriously is that yes I think
02:22:50 so be if we talk now about how the relationship came to an end the sexual relationship ship you say in your witness statement that in the summer of 1993 you met another comrade in the swp and started a relationship with him so you stopped seeing Bobby Trevor Morris
02:23:12 you stopped seeing Bobby Trevor Morris so did you end the relationship with him yes and how did he respond to that
02:23:21 um I mean I think he knew that he hadn't done enough to make the relationship last right did he take it well or did he seem cross there was no tears there was no
02:23:32 cross there was no tears there was no Scene It was kind of resigned okay you know and maybe yeah no sorry I mean we
02:23:44 know and maybe yeah no sorry I mean we know that he he that um from what we've read in his statement that the relationship it seems to be have been um entirely that the timing of it will that make me very much look as if I was a
02:23:57 make me very much look as if I was a human shield for him because he stated that somebody who was related to someone high up in the party had
02:24:09 high up in the party had um made a pass at him and then that he had I'm been careful what I say here um and that he had turned turned this person down and they
02:24:24 person down and they had then accused him of being a spy I actually totally disbelieve this um because um I know that person and they would I'm sure if they had thought that
02:24:42 would I'm sure if they had thought that they would have maybe said you know look look out here you know maybe raise suspicions but
02:24:53 but um it certainly served him at that point to have a girlfri in the party and the indication in his statement is that um he uh he he told his manager of this
02:25:04 he uh he he told his manager of this incident and this accusation and that he was quite paranoid um and he'd been told to you better sort it out then um
02:25:18 to you better sort it out then um and I read that as being you better get yourself a girlfriend quickly then yeah yes I mean he says he thinks it was a subconscious
02:25:29 a subconscious factor that it wasn't conscious he says what do you feel about that do you um believe that I think his manager was
02:25:37 was tacitly uh advising him to um get himself a cover story quickly and that it served him to have somebody who uh
02:25:50 it served him to have somebody who uh like myself who would be certainly not um not under any suspicion as um as cover right just very briefly the person we won't mention their name but the person in the swp who he mentions uh he
02:26:07 person in the swp who he mentions uh he said made a pass at him and accused him of being a spy were you friends with that person yes and when you say you think she would have said something is
02:26:18 think she would have said something is that do you mean because she knew that you were in a relationship with Bobby with Trevor Morris yes right but she never said anything to you no and you didn't hear on the Great Vine that there were suspicions that he was a
02:26:31 were suspicions that he was a spy I think it may be sort of part of his sort of um grandiosity
02:26:43 really um B so the relationship ended around the summer of 1993 so it's that would mean that it had lasted a little over a year is that
02:26:54 lasted a little over a year is that correct yes with the the the the second half of that time being more of the onoff yeah yeah but definitely he probably I probably still serve the purpose to him um right you know should people be
02:27:03 people be suspicious right um you say that you remained friends though after the sexual relationship ended do you mean by this would
02:27:14 would you were you friendly when you bumped into him or would you still arrange to spend time with him socially how did that friendship work no more of a bumped into thingy and also because he then um
02:27:31 into thingy and also because he then um joined another Branch so um after a few months I'm I wouldn't have seen him at the at the branch but I do remember you know certain events um for instance
02:27:42 know certain events um for instance there was a a rally in Tottenham um with the um black um black nationalists um the the the rally was uh around Malcolm Malcolm X one of our com had
02:27:56 Malcolm Malcolm X one of our com had written a book about um Malcolm X and it was a um uh a rally kind of centering around the um the premise in the book that um that Mal was towards the end of
02:28:09 that um that Mal was towards the end of his life um was U more sort of favorable to so moved more towards Marxism and away from black nationalism right okay and you s you remember seeing him on a
02:28:21 and you s you remember seeing him on a demonstration yeah I think we we we had a big chat there yes so yeah were you aware when he drops off the scene were you aware of that at the
02:28:32 time um so that would have been like
02:28:46 199 oh sorry 95 95 was when he dropped off the scene yeah I'm just wondering if at the time no I'd have seen him at Marxism but um but yes sort of it petered the it
02:28:57 um but yes sort of it petered the it petered out as he was more involved in a different area and then in different sort of politics um and I didn't really I had sort of moved on and I didn't re and I didn't really
02:29:13 didn't re and I didn't really um have very much to do with him but I was then really surprised to get um a letter from him sent from Egypt in
02:29:25 letter from him sent from Egypt in 1995 um saying that he' gone to Egypt to and he was it I mean in retrospect it was bizarre because he said he was working in the bizar bizaar in Egypt and that he wanted to S tra and save some money and travel around Africa and that was consistent with his
02:29:37 was consistent with his um in his in the in the way that his politics had moved but what was very strange was that it was kind of out of nowhere because we hadn't really had any contact for the past year at least um
02:29:58 contact for the past year at least um and it was only later that I understood that that was something that um they were that all the the undercover um officers were encouraged to do to sort of send a letter to their exgirlfriends um it was almost a policy
02:30:14 exgirlfriends um it was almost a policy thing I think from um a different place some went to South Africa or Australia you know his from Egypt genuinely postmart from Egypt um to give Story I mean in in his case it was rather unnecessary because um you know we
02:30:27 unnecessary because um you know we hadn't really had any contact for the last year and it w I wish I kept the letter but um and it was really out of the blue and I thought well okay yeah
02:30:38 the blue and I thought well okay yeah well that was going to be my question is why did you find it so bizarre but you've answered it because you hadn't heard from him for ages and then to suddenly have a postcard was you you found that odd yeah um B if we move now
02:30:53 found that odd yeah um B if we move now to how you found out that Trevor Morris was an undercover officer in your witness statement you refer to a friend being suspicious 10 years ago
02:31:04 ago and as far as I understand it they raised those suspicions with you is that correct they raised the suspicions and also asked me for a photograph
02:31:17 photograph um because the um the Guardian journalists who were writing the undercover policing um book had asked and this person knew I think it's Rob
02:31:33 and this person knew I think it's Rob Evans um and he asked me for photographs which I provided and I honestly didn't think anything more about it um because I
02:31:39 I was I mean because I'm just not suspicious by nature but also because it seemed
02:31:50 seemed um it just seemed too far-fetched that um that anyone would have a relationship with me um on on on that
02:32:03 relationship with me um on on on that ground I was I was S no one in the I I would assume that if you were working under cover you would have a relationship with somebody who kind of was more in the middle you know in the middle of things rather than a um a single mom who'd only just join the
02:32:18 single mom who'd only just join the party so was that the main reason you wer
02:32:20 wer you thought it was very unlikely because you yourself were not a prominent person in the swp rather than any characteristics any of the things that your friend considered to be suspicious
02:32:34 your friend considered to be suspicious for example like the the way he sort of appeared and was very active for a period and then disappeared did any of that affect
02:32:47 that affect your feelings about it's just my nature really I think it's just my nature not to be suspicious um yeah then how did you actually find
02:32:58 um yeah then how did you actually find out be when was it confirmed so um in 20 summer of
02:33:06 summer of 2019 um I was visited by um someone from the undercover policing inquiry
02:33:11 inquiry um who I actually wasn't in at the time and a friend was staying in the house and she said this guy has come around and he's got a letter and he wants to give it to you personally um
02:33:23 give it to you personally um and um so I called and he left a number so I called a number the the next day and I can't remember if he came around or if it was a phone call because I was so shocked that it sort of um and he said um you know I'm really sorry to
02:33:36 said um you know I'm really sorry to have to tell you that your ex-boyfriend um was an undercover police officer and I said was it Bobby so I did realized as soon as he said that I knew who it
02:33:52 soon as he said that I knew who it was and but I I was utterly utterly Gob smacked and in shock obviously that was going to be my question that your immediate reaction was that it it was just utter shock is that
02:34:03 that correct and and and shame actually was the first my first feeling because I I felt I felt I had I felt stupid that I
02:34:19 felt I felt I had I felt stupid that I hadn't realized even when there were all these pointers even when I'd been asked directly
02:34:28 directly um and I felt shame because I had inadvertently provided cover for somebody who might have
02:34:36 um got friends of mine into trouble who might have told lies about us about me about but about my friends um I didn't
02:34:47 about but about my friends um I didn't want people to know um I felt it made me into a suspects my myself that was my initial reaction I I just wanted to um to
02:35:04 disappear when you say you you felt it made you a suspect yourself what do you mean by that being that that I'd slept with the Enemy I see that you'd be like a traitor entally right um so if I understand it correctly
02:35:22 um so if I understand it correctly wrapped up with these feelings of Shame were feelings of guilt essentially is that correct yeah you can see in your um bundle be that there are a couple of reports on
02:35:36 individuals I don't think we need to go to them but you are listed there are these Pro forers nominal Pro forers on individuals linked to the swp and you are listed on those reports as an associate an associate of these
02:35:57 individuals one of these reports is dated the 14th of July 92 and it refers to someone with a ba from Oxford University and there's another one from the 3D of March 92 which refers to someone who's the sales and advertising
02:36:10 someone who's the sales and advertising director from East End offset are these people he met through you that's the same person and and and my best friend at the time right yes he fostered that
02:36:22 fostered that relationship um so as she did many others of people
02:36:34 um so as she did many others of people that he met who would come around to the house and when I see the reports that I've very recently seen where he's
02:36:50 I've very recently seen where he's reported prant and unnecessary sometimes homophobic um reports about people that he'd met and befriended in my house people who would have trusted him because they trusted me yeah um I felt terrible about that you refer also be in your statement
02:37:06 that you refer also be in your statement to something that he says in his witness statement about reporting on members of the swp who worked in the Civil Service and you can think of two people you
02:37:12 you know who did that
02:37:23 know who did that and again does this link to this idea of shame that you feel that you exposed these inadvertently of course but exposed these people to Trevor Morris yes I've got um pictures of him um you know in my house talking to these
02:37:43 people another emotion you refer to another response that you had to finding out
02:37:44 out was a sense of paranoia and a lack of trust can you elaborate on that at all be just how
02:37:55 elaborate on that at all be just how finding out about Trevor Morris made you feel
02:37:58 feel paranoid well I mean I think the whole thing is that you know that traa is a journey isn't it like from the the from from the start my first feeling was was shame um my second
02:38:09 second um emotion I suppose I went through was uh was paranoia and and distrust um you know and I I felt I couldn't you know
02:38:21 know and I I felt I couldn't you know might the my phone was tapped you know I didn't I I didn't want I wondered whether any sort of Suspicion of that somebody may be inauthentic made me um
02:38:32 somebody may be inauthentic made me um wonder who they were or wonder if they were working for the police um it interfered with a couple of friendships um of mine I was
02:38:45 friendships um of mine I was um I thought I was being followed a couple of times I mean my whole understanding about um you know I always thought I belong to this open
02:38:57 thought I belong to this open organization um when I'd always thought it was ludicrous to think that there would be people paid to infiltrate us when your whole basis of the way you understand
02:39:08 understand um the society to work is turned upside down obviously um distrust and paranoia
02:39:26 down obviously um distrust and paranoia um and and suspicion are going to um are going to be prominent features of your journey you also mentioned in your statement that you had concern for the safety of your youngest child without going into any details be can you explain what you meant by that well I
02:39:38 explain what you meant by that well I have a younger child who who um is was 13 at the time um who's now 19 and who lived with me so I just um and
02:39:49 lived with me so I just um and um and a wife um and you know we were all worried about you know about being followed or people knowing where we were and um you know it's obvious that I
02:40:04 and um you know it's obvious that I would be concerned for the safety of my family particularly those who you know were living with me yeah did it affect your children did you talk to your children about
02:40:16 children about it yes I would say that um of course I did um and I would say that um it was radicalizing for for them you know they they I didn't believe the state would work in that
02:40:28 state would work in that way when I found out now I know they know now from a much earlier age that
02:40:43 know now from a much earlier age that that's how you know that this that this happens sorry yeah that's fine worry
02:40:49 worry um in respect of anger you say in your don't that you're more angry with the British State than actually you are with Trevor Morris can you explain that um that was in my
02:41:05 that um that was in my statement I think my anger for Bobby has has grown since then that's sort a part of my journey um I felt that he had been used and I
02:41:16 um I felt that he had been used and I felt that his family had been used to start with that was my um my initial reaction was oh my God his wife you know what must she have gone through what must she
02:41:32 she have gone through what must she still be going through um and um and his own children and and him but then as time went on and I R the statement and understood the part
02:41:43 R the statement and understood the part that he had played in the social justice campaigns in Welling particularly in Welling because he has stated exactly what he
02:41:50 what he told um his his minders about Welling and I was there and I know what happened so I think um I do feel that
02:42:04 um I do feel that he has been brainwashed in a way to believe
02:42:10 believe that um that his Allegiance is to
02:42:12 to um The
02:42:17 um The Establishment um and the state and the the the status quo um as opposed to his class um his community and his family thank you
02:42:33 family thank you B I just want to take you to a couple of things he says in his witness statement just to get your response to those um you have actually touched upon
02:42:44 those um you have actually touched upon this uh but it was the fact that when he says that he may have got into the relationship subconsciously to cover up suspicion that he was a SP why I mean we have covered it but just to make it clear how do you feel about that I mean do you think
02:42:58 think that now knowing I think now he may have got into the relationship consciously to as a cover up right rather more than unconsciously okay and how do you feel about his
02:43:17 okay and how do you feel about his saying that he regrets the relationships he had as it would have been better if they had not happened but that he was deep in his alter ego go at the time uh well firstly yes I agree that it would have been better if they hadn't happened um and but
02:43:29 happened um and but secondly you can't hide in an alter ego you can't go and murder someone and say oh sorry that was my Alter Ego not me it's not an excuse under the law um
02:43:41 it's not an excuse under the law um unless you're actually psychotic at the time um he was fully uh had full mental capacity he may have been conflicted in many ways he talks about being a a
02:43:56 many ways he talks about being a a functional schizophrenic which I think is an unfortunate um use of of of language but he had capacity he knew what he was doing
02:44:09 what he was doing and to he was still responsible for his own
02:44:14 actions be can ask the what one of the ways that's affected you I understand from your witness statement is that this experience for you was one of the main drivers for your decision to leave the UK is that correct
02:44:25 UK is that correct absolutely can you explain just in in very brief why it made you feel that
02:44:39 way I just feel that you know if the state is will go to the extent of sanctioning infiltration at this level
02:44:50 sanctioning infiltration at this level of decent people trying to make Society better whilst ignoring organizations on the far right where real hatred and real danger lies then how how corrupt is that
02:45:09 then how how corrupt is that Society um I it I it was compounded by the whole way that uh the labor party was treated in the um 200
02:45:25 the um 200 19 election um the lies and smears that were told at that point but from the moment that I heard I said to my wife I can't live in this country
02:45:41 anymore we're nearly at the end now be I just want to ask you this um if you'd learn that Trevor Morris was a police officer would you have would you have invited him into your house
02:45:56 no I mean I don't have a personal problem I didn't have a personal problem with the police at that point per se my grandfather was a policeman I um adored my grandfather he died not that long
02:46:12 my grandfather he died not that long before so he would have known um about that um I think there is a part for Community pleasing when they're protecting the community but not when
02:46:25 protecting the community but not when they're protecting the ruining class and the and the the capitalist system which has wrought so much destruction on on the planet and on society that's put that's divided the rich and poor where you know we see all all the time that
02:46:41 you know we see all all the time that indicated to say capitalism can't work you know it's it's it's a it's a poisonous
02:46:50 poisonous system if you'd known Trevor Morris was a policeman and I should have said working undercover would you have introduced him to your children oh my gosh no of course not and if you'd learn that Trevor Morris was a police officer working under cover would you have started a relationship with him absolutely
02:47:03 relationship with him absolutely not B I've come to the end of the questions that I have for you today I just want to ask you is there anything that you want to raise or anything you want to say to the chair for him to take into
02:47:23 consideration no I wasn't prepared to um to be asked if I had any questions um so not questions necessarily but just anything more we haven't covered that you would like to talk about not at this point okay thank you thank
02:47:42 you I hadn't realized when we spoke last that you could not see my face the cameras have not been set up in such a way as to permit it uh I now hope I can
02:47:55 way as to permit it uh I now hope I can if you come over here come over here I'm not sure she can forgive me I let try again um I hope that you can now see me and not merely hear my disembodied voice mat we normally have a break of 15 minutes at this time to permit all other
02:48:12 minutes at this time to permit all other core participants who may wish questions to be put to you through Miss monan um will you bear with us for that 15 minutes uh and uh then answer any questions after it after which your evidence should be complete thank you yes thank
02:48:47 you
02:57:47 e e
02:58:40 Miss gy B would you like to sum up to the inquiry how you feel about being spyed
02:58:43 on yes thank you um for asking um
02:58:55 I mean it was wrong in so many ways and I think that um the the first challenge of the inquir is already established that it's it was wrong but you know just to say in some of the ways that it was wrong you know I feel that I was used as a human shield um I feel um
02:59:16 a human shield um I feel um that that um that there was trespass in my house um there was trespass into my family my privacy my right to privacy was completely um overridden um I believed that the intimacy between us was uncons on the
02:59:34 intimacy between us was uncons on the grounds that the person that I was with was not the person who I believed them to be
02:59:37 to be um I I I believe that it was wrong for um that his his wife and children were wronged by uh by what happened
02:59:51 were wronged by uh by what happened um and I just I I I just and I I think that I don't believe that he put me in
03:00:05 that I don't believe that he put me in danger now retrospectively but I think that in his framing of things I would have been in danger if he really believed that I mean what the way he wrote in this kind of cloak and dag away about um he said for instance that had
03:00:16 about um he said for instance that had he been in not in his statement but in the Hearn report he states that um his life would have been at risk had he been had his his identity being uncovered
03:00:31 had his his identity being uncovered which is obviously absolutely ridiculous I think the one person whose identity was
03:00:43 was um uh uh what was uh discovered during the relationship During the period of spying he was given a um you know a Stern um chat and uh um and then disappeared I mean it's so ridiculous to think his life would have been in danger but if he did believe his life is in
03:00:57 but if he did believe his life is in danger then would that not put me in my children in danger as well would I you know not in in his Cloak and Dagger a description of this of his um Espionage work would I not have been tarred and feathered um so so I think that in you
03:01:11 feathered um so so I think that in you know if he really believed that that he was in danger then he was putting me in danger as well I don't believe the
03:01:22 danger as well I don't believe the danger was physical but I think um I was um horribly used um
03:01:32 um and it was just so wrong in in many EV every way in every way it was
03:01:40 indefensible thank you I don't have any other
03:01:48 questions be uh thank you for giving evidence may I express my personal thanks to you for doing so uh you have brought to life in a way that no end of
03:02:00 brought to life in a way that no end of papers can the impact of these events on real people uh thank you thank you very much indeed thank you I appreciate that thank you that concludes um this
03:02:11 thank you that concludes um this morning's proceedings we will resume at 2