Jenny's testimony about being deceived into relationship with HN78 'Bobby Lewis' (Trevor Morris). Describes her political activism in the 1980s-90s fighting injustice, how Bobby suddenly appeared everywhere after first meeting, and the devastating long-term impact on her ability to trust after discovering the truth.
00:14:58 e e
00:15:45 those in the hearing room will only hear the voice of the witness who's to give evidence Jenny uh her voice will be modulated so that you will not hear her real voice uh the usual rules apply
00:15:57 real voice uh the usual rules apply anyone with a mobile device may use it to transmit uh what they have heard during the course of the hearings but
00:16:08 during the course of the hearings but only after 10 minutes has elapsed the purpose is to fit in with the uh time-elapsed uh broadcast of proceedings which uh uh uh is in place uh you may not use your devices to record
00:16:19 devices to record proceedings thank you Jenny I understand that you are affirming your evidence today is that correct please repeat after me I solemnly I do
00:16:33 solemnly I do solemnly I don't think we could hear you could you speak up please I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly you may need to move a little bit further forward declare and affirm
00:16:48 further forward declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but
00:17:04 would everyone pause for a moment please I realize I brought in my wrong notebook I was go and get the right one apologies
00:17:58 with apologies for that we can now resume
00:18:04 resume throughout this hearing I'll call you Jenny because there's a privacy restriction over your name Jenny do you recall providing a witness statement to the inquiry dated the 16th of April 2024 I do are you familiar with the
00:18:19 2024 I do are you familiar with the contents of that statement I am can you confirm that the contents of that statement are true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief
00:18:25 belief are Jenny quickly we'll look at your campaigning history before you joined the swp I understand from your witness statement you joined CND for a year when you were a teenager is that correct I
00:18:40 you were a teenager is that correct I can't remember how long but yeah I would have been about 16 and you were also involved in the anti-apartheid movement you saved for quite a long time actually between 1982 roughly and 1990 is that correct
00:18:57 1982 roughly and 1990 is that correct yes and the activity that you undertook with these groups included attending meetings and marches yes I understand that between
00:19:10 marches yes I understand that between 1984 and 1987 you were involved in your University's women's group and that as part of that group you defended abortion rights women's safety in the home and on the streets is that correct
00:19:22 correct yes and you fundraised for that group and again attended meetings marches and protest tests as a member of
00:19:35 protest tests as a member of it Jenny you say that between 1984 and 1987 you were involved in socialist groups generally so this is as distinct from the S swp can I ask why were you drawn to
00:19:46 swp can I ask why were you drawn to socialist groups what was it that they were campaigning for that Drew you to
00:19:55 thems the mid late 80s were very very difficult times um we had Margaret thater in hour we had what felt like a steady roll back the rights that we had and I guess if I think about that time
00:20:12 and I guess if I think about that time it was a period of defensive campaigning mostly so it wasn't so much campaigning for things as against things um so the nuclear war was a big fear at the time um aparte was a a terrible
00:20:23 um aparte was a a terrible catastrophe um that many of us felt really passionately about those of us who felt strongly about social justice and there are lots of questions of
00:20:35 and there are lots of questions of social justice of the time to keep us busy engaged thank you and when you were involved in these
00:20:48 you and when you were involved in these campaigns you attended meetings marches and protests is that right and you also fundraised um occasionally yes I think you know bucket are handed out of things raise money for different causes
00:21:02 raise money for different causes Jenny if we move now to your membership of the
00:21:03 of the swp you say that you joined around summer 1987 is that right yes I think it's and your involvement dropped off
00:21:21 it's and your involvement dropped off around 1994 when you moved out of North London yes can I ask what prompted you to join the swp in particular I was talking before about
00:21:33 particular I was talking before about how defensive the times were and about how people were defending rights and Seeking
00:21:38 Seeking Justice um the labor party at the time was steadily moving towards the right and Neil kin um it felt that the place
00:21:50 and Neil kin um it felt that the place of protest wasn't necessarily the labor party and that then opened up the left and I never felt one thing was more important than anything else I felt equally strongly about feminism and social justice
00:22:04 social justice and ending oppression of people at work and defending Trade union rights and being opposed to racism and when I looked at the left it felt like the swp was the most organized movement
00:22:15 was the most organized movement available it wasn't single issue movement it was very broad-based and it sort to build a mass movement to tackle all of these issues and many more and to work towards a more just
00:22:26 just Society um we you vent anticipated my next question very well because I was going to ask what did you understand to be the aims of the swp but from that
00:22:37 be the aims of the swp but from that answer I take from it that to build a broad-based movement essentially to fight Injustice and exactly it wasn't a single issue party is that right yes it was very much about building a mass
00:22:51 was very much about building a mass movement from below so it wasn't about being told what to think it was about mobilizing as many people as possible to deliver change by strength of opinion and strength numbers so and that was really appealing
00:23:04 numbers so and that was really appealing how what was your understanding Jenny of how they plan to build this movement this mass movement I mean it was a very broad-based movement anyway I think in terms of representation the large numbers of women large numers of
00:23:21 large numbers of women large numers of people color it wasn't just students and academics the people who TR union members
00:23:23 members workers um and so it was using those levels of Entry I guess so to to get more involved in disputes and campaigns as they
00:23:34 as they arose um and it wasn't so much about parachuting people into those events or those campaigns it was about having people who involved then get more
00:23:49 people who involved then get more involved with more people so it was very much about building a broad base we wanted to see what do you say to Trevor Morris or
00:24:00 see what do you say to Trevor Morris or Bobby as you knew him his assertion that the s WP wanted to overthrow the UK government by non-democratic means I mean that's that's a loaded statement right there isn't it um I
00:24:11 statement right there isn't it um I think that what we were trying to do was bring change on behalf of the most people possible so to build a mass
00:24:22 people possible so to build a mass broad-based movement that we could then collectively push our aims forward um to me that is
00:24:33 democracy I mean did you ever say anything to Bobby Lewis about wanting to overthrow the government by non-democratic means I think at some point in future we were hoping to change the way that we live and the way that the economy is
00:24:44 live and the way that the economy is organized but that glorious day was very far in the future we definitely
00:24:57 far in the future we definitely organizing for that dayto day um it was very much a defensive movement I think time when I was involved right so you didn't feel that the Revolution was imminent no and again just drawing out something you've said is you weren't organizing in any sort of military way so you weren't drilling yourselves or arming
00:25:20 yourselves not very much I'm not in the business of tooling up no no there there was no military training okay um can I ask J what was your understanding of the swp's attitude to using violence as a mean of achieving a
00:25:37 using violence as a mean of achieving a political goal or obtaining an political goal I think when I think about all the ways that Society has changed since Industrial Revolution um a lot of the things that are good in our world were not delivered by asking nicely though things like bank holidays things like those women came at
00:25:55 holidays things like those women came at the end of long hard campaigning by lots and lots of people and I do think that that's how change happens and I think change does happen from mass movements pushing for change not by individual people going out and breaking
00:26:08 individual people going out and breaking stuff um I think change is political and you build for it so by that do you mean that when you say people not asking nicely do you mean that
00:26:26 nicely do you mean that then a mass movement it is acceptable to use violence to bring about change is that
00:26:27 that your Bel at the time was that the swp's belief we were talking before about the revolution not being imminent the
00:26:38 revolution not being imminent the revolution is once we got the movement and I think our understanding of socialists was that sometimes power doesn't relinquish itself voluntarily so theoretically there might be some need to engage very directly when vested
00:26:56 to engage very directly when vested interests defend their vested interests but in Practical terms yeah that was a long long long way off um and when you refer to
00:27:10 um and when you refer to that I think you refer to Chile in your witness statement to the coup in Chile in 1974 is that an example you would provide of where violence might be necessary in your in the s wp's view don't remember mentioning Chile oh apologies I I might have got confused
00:27:24 apologies I I might have got confused but um do you know what I'm referring to there uh yeah I mean I'm not an expert on Latin American no nor am I nor am I um if we move colonialization movements the colonial powers and those
00:27:41 movements the colonial powers and those were Mass mobilize hundreds of thousands of people and I do think that's how change happens understood if we turn Jenny to your activities in the swp once you became a member what did that membership entail what did you
00:27:54 that membership entail what did you do every week as a member Branch me you probably do one or two pay sales
00:28:08 you probably do one or two pay sales maybe Friday night at your local Tube Station or train station maybe on Saturdays um you would go to
00:28:19 Saturdays um you would go to educationals to learn more about Marxist theory um and you go to protests I guess and did you sell papers
00:28:28 papers yes so were you devoting quite a lot of your spare time to the swp at this period in your life I wouldn't say a lot I had full-time work um or I was studying um I'd give my evenings up i'
00:28:40 studying um I'd give my evenings up i' give occasional weekends up um I think the way that the organization worked it became very close to your fellow
00:28:51 became very close to your fellow socialists very quickly and so it didn't always feel like work or campaigning work when you were hanging out with your friends um going for coffee after yeah uh is it correct that you held no
00:29:10 yeah uh is it correct that you held no formal position in the swp when you were a member I held no formal decision to a what might be called a rank and file member exactly um Jenny when you were a member was this
00:29:21 um Jenny when you were a member was this swp from what you saw was it a secretive Organization no and kind of in retrospect having seen the statement of the officer there very little in there that I accept to be true that he wouldn't have learned by reading socialist work every week um or maybe
00:29:36 socialist work every week um or maybe talking to his local seller or going on a
00:29:41 a demonstration um it wasn't a secretive organization I had friends who from other countries who had worked within secretive organizations and they were
00:29:57 secretive organizations and they were quite surprised actually by how open the swp was right um were the swp from what you saw were they concerned about security
00:29:58 security at the material time I think there were jokes about undercover infiltration um as a rank and farm member I've got no idea what
00:30:09 farm member I've got no idea what measures if any will put in place right to either we people out or work out who might be doing that it's very open right you do say in your witness statement you say we used to joke about the police
00:30:20 say we used to joke about the police about who the police spy Among Us was and you say that was a joke so from that can I infer that wasn't really taken
00:30:31 can I infer that wasn't really taken seriously there wasn't a serious concern as far as you were concerned that sometimes you joke about things that are quite serious yes well it's a serious matter but that at the
00:30:42 it's a serious matter but that at the time you didn't necessarily think it was a reality is that fair or not I think what I'd say is that when I thought about my own circles I couldn't
00:30:55 thought about my own circles I couldn't think of anybody really obviously was an cover officer right and felt like quite a safe thing to joke about all that sure but I don't take to policing likely at all no no indeed um you also say I
00:31:06 at all no no indeed um you also say I would never have guessed it was Bobby Lewis in a million years I'll move on to your relationship with him in a in a short while but can I just ask here why would you not have
00:31:17 just ask here why would you not have guessed it was him in a million years what was it about him that was so
00:31:26 convincing I think he was everybody's friend he just came across a really really nice social um he was really helpful he kind of got stuck into things and he didn't take himself that seriously
00:31:39 himself that seriously and yeah he he just didn't seem to have secrets so he was an open he struck you as an open person yeah openable to
00:31:50 as an open person yeah openable to getting to know people which yes I now read that through a different F the time it seemed to be positive yeah uh now that you know what you do about State infiltration of the
00:32:03 State infiltration of the swp what do you feel about that what what impact has that had on you we're talking generally I'm not talking specifically here about Trevor
00:32:15 specifically here about Trevor Morris has that affected your sorry to interrupt just just to clarify what I mean has that affected your willingness to get involved or to
00:32:28 to get involved or to organize yes absolutely um I've been shaken by the scale of infiltration of leftwing groups in particular um at the time I was active there were young people being beaten up in the street by rightwing groups and my view on this to this day is that the
00:32:43 view on this to this day is that the threat came from the right not from the left if we're talking about police imp public
00:32:44 public order um and it has shaken my self-confidence in my belief in my right to protest and I guess this is something we'll talk about later but I am
00:32:57 we'll talk about later but I am absolutely goduck by the level and the scale of reporting and the personal nature of the reporting that I've seen the documents that come my way yes we will we'll explore that in due cause Jenny it through your
00:33:14 due cause Jenny it through your involvement in the swp I understand that you became involved in other groups so stop the war for example um you say in your witness statement you evolved in stop the war between 1990 and 1991 can I ask why did
00:33:26 between 1990 and 1991 can I ask why did you get involved with stop the War what was that about uh what happened was that Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and then West decided to to
00:33:38 to to liberate uh to me this was a local dispute between two oil powers and I was really shocked by the scale of the bombing when the bombing
00:33:49 bombing when the bombing started um Western Powers have a long and disastrous history of involvement in the Middle East militarily um and I was absolutely
00:34:00 militarily um and I was absolutely pulled by what I was seeing on the news every night um as for many of us and there a long-term campaign of Peace um
00:34:11 there a long-term campaign of Peace um I'm opposed generally to war and I just what was happening in the Middle East was
00:34:19 was terrific and as a member of stop the war you attended meetings and marches and demonstrations is that the kind of activity and can I ask what was the mood on those marches the ones that you attended were they disorderly in any way or
00:34:34 disorderly in any way or peaceful no I I think there were marches where people expressed their anger by chanting slogans by waving banners by marching in large numbers um I think the policing of those demonstrations was relatively light I
00:34:48 demonstrations was relatively light I don't think right police or horses yeah um so people march the agreed starts the agreed finish we heard speeches and then we disperse
00:35:01 we disperse right um if we look now at the ANL the anti-nazi league Jenny and your involvement with that group you say in your witness statement you were involved from 1992 to
00:35:16 from 1992 to 1994 can I ask so were your activities activities with the ANL distinct from your swp activities were they very clearly
00:35:21 demarcated
00:35:30 question I do you you mean different people yeah I just mean did you when you were working for the ANL was there a strong sense you were very much just working for the ANL was a lots of crossover
00:35:41 for the ANL was a lots of crossover between the two groups so actually work for one
00:35:43 for one really entailed work for the other does that make sense I just wonder if it did it to what extent did it feel like a very separate organization from the s swp or not at all maybe swp became involved in NL which
00:35:56 maybe swp became involved in NL which was a much much larger more broad-based organization um we meet more people more different people onl events
00:36:07 events um what did you understand to be the purpose of the ANL again as distinct from the swp what was its particular
00:36:18 particular Focus I think the swp was organizing around a whole raft of different causes and questions and concerns and the ANL was linked strictly to the rise in
00:36:35 was linked strictly to the rise in attacks in the early 80s right on women in veils people of color um there were
00:36:47 in veils people of color um there were Fair a number of of high-profile murders at the time um Ricky real step Lawrence it felt like the Streets of London in particular were not necessarily safe places for young people of color yeah and that was really frightening and alarming and I think what both movements
00:37:05 alarming and I think what both movements sh was a commitment to mobilize to raise awareness of these threats and to say that this should not be allowed to happen in our street and how did
00:37:19 street and how did it so it was opposing the and bringing awareness to people about the rise in Neo-Nazi violence how did it do this from what you saw how did it raise awareness it wasn't just about raising awareness it was also recognizing that there was a lot of fear inside the
00:37:32 there was a lot of fear inside the communities that were affected so it was partly to show solidarity and to claim spaces back as public spaces for
00:37:44 public spaces for everybody um and then it was also to say that you know there's no space here for Nazi
00:37:45 Nazi opinions um we don't accept that it's okay to be racist and to discriminate
00:37:57 okay to be racist and to discriminate against people based on their skin color their ethnic origin their religious belief or any other grps and I understand this was a cause you believed in very very passionately which is why you joined the
00:38:14 ANL can I ask Jenny about how the ANL organized in response to the BNP paper sales in bricklane in the early '90s was this something you were involved with yes it was um that area of lond has a
00:38:35 yes it was um that area of lond has a huge Multicultural history um was setled I think by Hugo and then by Jews and then by the benoli community and it has this long history of resistance organization and when I was in the S swp and B ANL what was happening was that at
00:38:53 and B ANL what was happening was that at weekends B&P members were selling their newspaper on the corner of I think Brick Lane
00:38:58 Lane itself and so you get a small group skin heads Jack Boots bomber jackets um yeah fairly scary looking individuals turning up and selling their papers um and that presence was
00:39:09 papers um and that presence was intimidating to local people um to young men to shopkeepers to women passing with their kids um and we felt it wasn't okay to have that organized intimidation in
00:39:26 to have that organized intimidation in this community so what would happen was that we would mobilize and Co would go out to get numbers of people down to Brick Lane when the Sal were out um old people went young people went which went men went and we would mobilized on the
00:39:42 men went and we would mobilized on the opposite corner of the street and what felt really striking at the time was that the skin heads would have a cordon of police around them almost to defend their presence on the street and we
00:39:58 their presence on the street and we would be present in much larger numbers heckling them right can can I ask what numbers of I mean roughly because obviously I suppose they fluctuated but what sort of numbers of BMP members would come out for these paper sales I honestly can't remember maybe a
00:40:13 sales I honestly can't remember maybe a couple of dozen right okay and in terms of the numbers that the ANL would mobilize again roughly how many on
00:40:26 average I don't have fine sorry my audio went to it funny then did you say a couple of hundred I would have thought so yeah I guess so fine um so from what you said Jenny I understand that the aim
00:40:43 you said Jenny I understand that the aim of these counter protests was to support the local community essentially and to stop them feeling intimidated by the presence of these people did they have
00:40:58 presence of these people did they have any other aims or purposes the counter protest I think to challenge the BMP thinking that it was okay to Miz the Reas they were Miz right and I understand that you attended some of these demonstrations is that
00:41:16 some of these demonstrations is that right can I ask what was the mood like when you were on these demonstrations was it was there a sense of violence could erupt at any time or was it generally peaceful and ferous perhaps but a sense that things were under
00:41:28 but a sense that things were under control how would you describe the mood were very angry very racist very vocal at their racism they sh abuse across the street it was often gender based um
00:41:49 street it was often gender based um based on yeah homophobia based on racism they were they were very very offensive in their language right and how would the ANL respond to these offensive
00:41:53 offensive we we would shout louder and we wouldn't get
00:41:55 get personal off our street and the police generally can I ask again roughly what sort of numbers were the police there in would you say I have no idea of the numbers I know
00:42:10 say I have no idea of the numbers I know they contained the side and the opposite side of the road I guess our side as well fine okay well I wasn't counting no well why would you be AB but your impression was was there was a ring of
00:42:23 impression was was there was a ring of police around the BMP that the BMP were protected is that was that your impression like a defensive recording around the BMP you talk in your witness statement about a specific incident at one of
00:42:39 about a specific incident at one of these paper sales involving Bobby Trevor Morris um can you tell us about this it involves some eggs do you know what I'm talking
00:42:48 talking about do know what you're talking about can you tell can you tell me what happened Jenny on this occasion so it was quite an angry protest as I recall and being here on the far side of the road
00:43:02 being here on the far side of the road were being particularly angry my friend and went oh for God's sake we should just egg them and then a couple of people went to the corner shop and came back with a tray of eggs and we all looked at these eggs and like what are we supposed to do with these um and then
00:43:14 we supposed to do with these um and then Bobby turned up from nowhere and he went oh for God's sake give those to me and picked up the cray of eggs and started hurling them across the road and for somebody we didn't think was particularly physical his a was
00:43:33 particularly physical his a was surprised ly good and I think the BMP managed to duck most of the eggs he caught a policeman Square on the helmet did the policeman react what did
00:43:48 helmet did the policeman react what did the policeman do I don't remember um you say well what did Bobby do after he had hit the policeman with the spped away surprisingly fast right yeah um and you say that this was
00:43:59 right yeah um and you say that this was surprising you were surprised that he be like this and why was that was that because up until this point you'd thought he was a very peaceful character and this seemed out of character or what what was it that surprised
00:44:11 what was it that surprised you the fact that he just stepped up in a physical way so fast um it's really hard to articulate what I mean by that come across as
00:44:27 what I mean by that come across as somebody who was especially physical or good at throwing good at running right did you when you saw him after this incident did you discuss this incident
00:44:38 incident did you discuss this incident with him at all I remember right so you never got any feedback from him on why he did it or his reasons for doing
00:44:51 it we've heard reference to someone a comrade uh telling Bobby off for taking an umbrella on protests is this something you heard or saw the umbrella right fine
00:45:06 now save for this incident that you've described with the eggs did you witness any other disorder on the counter protest at Bri clay no they generally follow the same pattern right so this is two separate groups verbal abuse maybe being
00:45:20 groups verbal abuse maybe being exchanged but nothing physical is that right physical the other thing I remember about them this is how things changed
00:45:29 changed we were almost very safety conscious we never went to demonstrations alone we never alone we never left alone um it felt like quite a dangerous place to be right and why did you feel it was
00:45:41 right and why did you feel it was dangerous was that emanating from the BMP members where was that feeling coming from yeah the BMP wers beating people and was that something You' seen yourself or was that just what you'd
00:45:55 yourself or was that just what you'd heard I think they were so aggressive and so physical towards didn't anywhere where they were within a square mile so when we were leaving the marches we'd put away our banners we'd
00:46:07 marches we'd put away our banners we'd leave our back cards we put newspapers and we'd leave a group okay you describe some other activities that you undertook with the ANL and
00:46:21 that you undertook with the ANL and you refer to a March protesting about the death of Joy Gardner who I understand was a woman who died after being violently restrained by the
00:46:35 police can you recall that March that you
00:46:44 attended there was an event in North London and I think the event was at Wy police station right the one I'm remembering so it was a small very angry crowd of people from North London okay
00:46:56 crowd of people from North London okay the police station because she don't I think died under police arrest yeah and you say they were very angry but was it a peaceful demonstration or did it become
00:47:10 did it become disorderly um if by disorderly you mean shouting I mean physically
00:47:25 shouting I mean physically sorry I don't remember anything physical I remember to rage I remember disbelief that this was a thing that happened to the community at the hands of the police um
00:47:27 police um it was it was outrageous but the anger as you saw it was expressed through chanting and shouting and by weight of numbers a
00:47:39 shouting and by weight of numbers a weight of numbers yeah how many people were there roughly I I'm really wor don't worry it's fine I mean it's a whole thing to estimate but there were people there who you wouldn't expect to see a marches
00:47:51 you wouldn't expect to see a marches there were lots of older women there right the local community and really was a whole
00:47:57 a whole crosssection
00:48:04 ofon yeah so it inspired a strong reaction in a large number of
00:48:12 people in a similar vein Jenny you refer also to
00:48:19 also to attending marches and demonstrations about the murder of Steven Lawrence around that time as well similarly were these protests that attracted large number of people we're not I'm not talking about Welling at this point I'm just talking generally were these
00:48:32 just talking generally were these protests that attracted a large number of
00:48:34 of people yes yes there were really big demonstrations because people wasn't first young man killed by suspective Aces and what you suspected turned out
00:48:51 Aces and what you suspected turned out to be true and the more information came out the more angry people especially with the family of theast prosecut yeah and again it's a same question but
00:49:05 yeah and again it's a same question but on those marches did you see any members of the ANL or the swp engaging in any violent conduct any disorderly physically disorderly conduct I remember a lot of furing and I think sometimes the police pushed us back where the police pushed us back
00:49:18 back where the police pushed us back people would push in self-defense but I don't remember anything that stands out right
00:49:30 just moving briefly to Welling which took place the Welling protest of the 16th of October 1993 now I understand you weren't on this Jenny is that right it's think long and hard because there were a few demonstrations that
00:49:42 there were a few demonstrations that took place London uh but when I looked at the witness bundle and looked at the dates yeah I I would have been out of town for a birthday right so wasn't
00:49:56 town for a birthday right so wasn't there okay were you privy to any plans for the protest or were you at any meetings where plans for the protests were discussed by members of the swp or the ANL or anything like that
00:50:11 no I mean you may not be in a position to answer really but I will ask it anyway what do you say you know that Bobby Lewis Trevor Morris asserts that there was a plan devised by Chris bamry to burn down the BMP Bookshop on that
00:50:27 to burn down the BMP Bookshop on that date before the demonstration really got going what do you say to that did you hear anything about that or any rumors
00:50:39 hear anything about that or any rumors anything to that effect that that was a plan what I have is Trevor Morris's witness
00:50:43 witness statement and he talks about bamry being involved in something called Port so assembling groups of large and fierce swp men to combat the fascists
00:50:58 fierce swp men to combat the fascists hand to hand he also talks about a plot to firebomb the BMP Bookshop
00:51:03 Bookshop um I call soor that's really bad language um I don't recognize recognize either of those things that
00:51:19 recognize either of those things that anybody I know in the S would seriously organize um I don't recognize those as things that the ANL would organize um I'm absolutely Gob smacked at that version of the event and I think it was the fact that there
00:51:31 and I think it was the fact that there was talk of hitters and there was talk of a fireb that led to the overp policing of a residential neighborhood at well um that then turned really
00:51:45 at well um that then turned really violent and I think Trevor Morris has a lot of questions to answer about the information he gave I I find it so unbelievable right um I'll just take you briefly to a report from Trevor Morris
00:51:57 briefly to a report from Trevor Morris this won't have been your bundle Jenny but um it's reference ucpi
00:52:05 28019 and this is a report that Trevor Morris refers to I think in the paragraph that you just referenced to do with hitters um sir it's not in your bundle it's a report dated it's page two
00:52:20 bundle it's a report dated it's page two of that report please paragraph one it's a report from cheva morrris dated the 24th of June 1994 and he's referring to in it Chris bamry I'll read the paragraph or some of the paragraph anyway it would appear
00:52:32 the paragraph anyway it would appear that the idea put forward by Socialist Workers Party Central Committee Member Chris bambury to form an organized
00:52:44 Chris bambury to form an organized security unit termed hitters within the swp to defend it and the an anti-nazi League ANL has been vetoed by Julie Waterson bambury had gone as far as compiling a list of physically competent comrades who he wanted to approach to join his band not only has Fortis and
00:53:02 join his band not only has Fortis and vetoed bamry scheme she has also Ed two of his left tenants from their jobs on the ANL
00:53:03 the ANL office and who figured highly on Bam's list both have been told that they are disruptive influence and are banned sorry if you could just move move down a
00:53:15 sorry if you could just move move down a bit so I can read paragraph two sorry if you could just move it up a little bit thank you just paragraph two um just the the end of paragraph 2 he writes many feel that the group will come to emulate red action in sty and
00:53:26 come to emulate red action in sty and tactics and someone's been seen drinking with leading red action figures recently and it finishes this way in any event the issue of a more physical
00:53:40 the issue of a more physical confrontational facility within the swp andl will not disappear and there is a growing sympathy towards the idea within the rank and file of both the swp and the
00:53:50 the ANL Jenny were you aware at all of growing sympathy toward towards the idea
00:54:02 growing sympathy toward towards the idea of a physically confrontational facility within the swp and the ANL during your
00:54:14 within the swp and the ANL during your membership oh um I mean this sounds like something that somebody might have said after hard weeks campaigning down the pub after a drink too many let's go and have a go at the BNP um and I think I mean Julie Waterson was an absolute
00:54:26 mean Julie Waterson was an absolute Legend and I think anybody who raised such a motion with her would have had a really fast metaphorical real clip
00:54:40 really fast metaphorical real clip around the ear and would been sent away um what I remember about thew and it a long time since I was a member that there was a very very hard line and the hard line was this we do not organize violence we do not take people on hand
00:54:54 violence we do not take people on hand to hand our job is to build the broadest possible movement to defeat the fascists um right Wingers we defeat them politically by weight of numbers we don't
00:55:05 don't go I can say too categorically I don't know anybody who toed up to go out and hit the BMP right thank
00:55:18 you Jenny we'll look now at the time when you actually met Bobby
00:55:34 Lewis when and where did you first meet him I don't remember what year it was um it would have been the early 90s and I met him at be house in North
00:55:45 90s and I met him at be house in North London um I had a group of friends who were active in hacky um I wasn't active in hacky but my friend knew that there was a house party at bees and she said we should go along
00:55:58 at bees and she said we should go along so I think four or five of us went along to this party be when you went to this party at Bee's house did you understand that she and Bobby had been in a relationship or were in a relationship had you heard anything
00:56:14 in a relationship had you heard anything about their relationship before you went to this party no the funny thing was I
00:56:25 to this party no the funny thing was I was friends with the person that be was dating after her relationship with Kev Morris ended um so I was really good friends with personally had a lot of time for them so I remember going to the party and meeting them at that party I'd never
00:56:36 meeting them at that party I'd never heard of Trevor Morris before right um I can tell you how I met him at this party yes please do that was going to be my next question can you tell me how you
00:56:48 next question can you tell me how you first came across him so the party was full of people I didn't necessarily know I wasn't really feeling being party very much so I was alone in the kitchen having a glass of water around about
00:57:03 having a glass of water around about midnight and I was wondering how to drag my friends away and thinking about ways I could separate them from their political discussion and gracefully disappear into the night the door of the kitchen burst open and this figure came
00:57:15 kitchen burst open and this figure came in like a cannonball and he was straight from Central Casting he had a black berry he had the biggest beard ever um he had red stars pinned his ber he was
00:57:29 he had red stars pinned his ber he was wearing lots of dark baddy CL CL and he shot in like a cannonball and started going through the cupboards and I'm thinking who the hell is this person I've never seen him before in my life and I made a joke about him raiding the joints and yeah and we laugh I
00:57:54 laugh and so did you have a sort of instant connection is that fair to say yeah he laughed I laughed we got to talking right um yeah I just thought what a what a strange guy what a nice guy yeah and how long did you spend talking to him on this
00:58:11 this occasion I think probably not very long because I was desperate to me um and I think I managed to around with my friends I think my friend may have come into the kitchen as we were
00:58:23 into the kitchen as we were talkinging him already um I used that as an excuse to grab her and go right okay um you do refer in your witness statement to some things that Bobby told you about himself so for example uh that he was from Alm and that he lived in
00:58:42 he was from Alm and that he lived in Germany and had roots in the Caribbean and that he spoke fluent German um amongst other things I'm sure he probably told you some other things as well but was this information that again came out on your first meeting or over the course of your
00:58:53 the course of your friendship did this kind of come in incrementally yeah I think having never seen him before um after that night he was suddenly everywhere so on every J I went
00:59:09 suddenly everywhere so on every J I went to was every social and fundraiser there he was sometimes he was there as a DJ sometimes he just make a beine for me and my
00:59:19 and my friends um and so having never met him before suddenly I was having a lot of conversations with him every time we bumped into each other right okay and it felt like he befriended me and used this personal information maybe to build my
00:59:31 personal information maybe to build my trust right okay um did he tell you how old he was by the way no I don't think he did and I think there a 10 year age gu right
00:59:44 okay now you understood that he worked as a freelance DJ did he tell you that or was that something you learned from other
00:59:51 other people I think you told me fairly quickly I think I knew before um I saw
01:00:02 quickly I think I knew before um I saw him DJ that he was a DJ so he may have told me that he was a DJ on the night that we met right um I think he also translated documents as a freelance from English into German or German into
01:00:13 English into German or German into English I'm not sure sure um and you did actually see him DJ did you say right more than once or just several several times most weekends and where would he
01:00:28 times most weekends and where would he DJ with these sorry events were in parts of Hackney right I think there was a venue in in haon or haon yeah that he would regularly DJ at would be a mixture of live bands and in the DJ set around
01:00:46 of live bands and in the DJ set around right and with these fundraising events or just fun right exactly these are fundraisers for the A&S right you understood that he had a car and a pager that he used for his work as a DJ again was this something he told
01:01:03 a DJ again was this something he told you or was this sort of common knowledge amongst your s swp Social Scene remember talk about the car though I suppose it would have been you know an obvious thing for a DJ to out to take
01:01:15 obvious thing for a DJ to out to take records around the pager really stood out because this was before mobile phones and we would phone each other's land lines or rage to see each other face to face yeah and Bobby was the first person
01:01:28 first person was the first person I ever knew to have a pager yeah and I remember my friend saying oh you know he's got a pager but it's fine because anytime you ring him he'll call you straight back I don't think I was in the business of ringing him because that wasn't
01:01:46 of ringing him because that wasn't really yeah our relationship that he was available should you want him okay well that's thank you um did so well the Pedro obviously gave him some sort of Rarity value did the car as well did that give him a sort of Rarity value
01:01:58 that give him a sort of Rarity value because it was unusual for people in the swp to have a vehicle yeah I think that's that's fair to say Yes And as far as you know did he use his vehicle to help the swp or the
01:02:14 use his vehicle to help the swp or the ANL yeah one thing I think about where he was deployed in London he was deployed I think on the totenham Hackney borders had a lot of the swp leadership lived on either side of the hack
01:02:29 lived on either side of the hack F borders right and so he was very well positioned to heiz some very senior people in oranization okay I remember him being especially proud of giving Cliff a lift from time to time uh Tony
01:02:43 Cliff a lift from time to time uh Tony Cliff was the elderly leader of the yeah um and yeah Trevor Morris was really proud about how he bonded with cliff and how nice Cliff was there and how interested Cliff was in in Trev Morris's own ideas and political develop
01:03:01 and you you heard that from Trevor from Bobby yeah and do you know how was he coming into contact with Tony Cliff how was he in a position to give him lifts was this after meetings I think it
01:03:13 was this after meetings I think it probably would have been yes so you know he could have said well I'm gonna be driving back to East London I give you a lift Tony cliff and Tony Cliff would have agreed to that right um can I ask did you ever hear any rumors
01:03:26 did you ever hear any rumors During the period that you knew Bobby that he was a spy did you ever
01:03:40 Bobby that he was a spy did you ever hear anything to that effect no I I saw the uh witness statement I nothing F
01:03:42 F now you say in your witness statement that Bobby opened up to you about his relationship history can you tell me what he told you please about his
01:03:55 what he told you please about his marriage and the breakdown of his
01:04:04 marriage um yeah I think he he kind of used that Legend to maybe build sympathy maybe feel sorry for him um the picture he painted of himself was a private person was he was kind of a grieving
01:04:15 was he was kind of a grieving dad um he had a relationship when he lived in Germany he was DJing around military bases in Germany and in that capacity he met and married a local
01:04:26 capacity he met and married a local woman and I think he said had children with her fairly quickly and he gave the impression that he was an absolutely
01:04:40 impression that he was an absolutely devoted dad he adored his children um and then he made a very very very serious error of judgment um roamed his wife yeah and his wife threw him out and because he was from the UK he says that's why he
01:04:51 from the UK he says that's why he returned to the UK right his whole legend was that he wanted desperately to be back his kids okay and so did he give you the impression that he wasn't seeing his children at all at this
01:05:07 his children at all at this point I can't remember whether he was going back periodically I don't want to speculate I can't tell no fair enough you can't remember but the idea was he
01:05:18 you can't remember but the idea was he was a grieving you put it well he was a grieving absent father
01:05:26 father um sorry I sorry Jen I just oh sorry for his real kids yeah um you say in your witness statement that the grave error of judgment he made was that he told you that he'd slept with his wife's sister is that correct
01:05:41 with his wife's sister is that correct that is what he told me yes um can I ask again roughly at what stage in your relationship that you had with him your friendship did he reveal this information was this early on or quite far into the
01:05:57 friendship and I don't think it would been right at the beginning because we got to know each other quite slowly and getting to know him was based around meeting up events right I think he gradually and gradually revealed more and more about himself
01:06:09 and more about himself personally um so he talks about why he was no longer with being to why he was no longer with his wife yeah and again was this information that he profited up
01:06:22 was this information that he profited up quite readily or did you have to sort of probe to get information out of him or did you feel he was quite an open person quite willing to share I think he volunteered that he'd broken up and I think I may have dug
01:06:37 broken up and I think I may have dug gently about why that was because he was so directed at having left right and seemed so certain that there was no way back I think I probably said something like well surely surely you both make it up to each other kid right and that's
01:06:49 up to each other kid right and that's when he dropped the B shell about his claimed reasons for having left right and what was your reaction when he told you this I mean I'm sure you probably felt more than one emotion but broadly
01:07:07 felt more than one emotion but broadly speaking did you feel outraged disgusted when you told him this story or disgust mixed with pity what was your response try enough to be judg me and I can see that he was very upset and I
01:07:22 can see that he was very upset and I think I felt sorry for him having done something so irrevocable in the way that he did um but I think that everybody is human everybody makes
01:07:35 human everybody makes mistakes and I wouldn't have come back at him for revealing that in fact you know he he confided in me and respect that
01:07:43 that confidence and did he when he told you the story did he give you the impression that he was deeply remorseful about what he had done that he was ashamed
01:07:59 I think he felt bad for the sake of the kids I don't think he elaborated on his
01:08:06 relationship I didn't ask them to go there no fine um I mean you did touch
01:08:17 there no fine um I mean you did touch upon this but so his confiding in you in this way did this Foster a feeling of mutual trust did you then feel sort of flattered that he'd entrusted you with this information and then that
01:08:28 then that create in you a feeling that you could trust him is that fair to say yeah the conversations we had were conversations I had with other men in
01:08:39 conversations I had with other men in the party who 10 years older right when I was
01:08:40 I was other it would be on a level of political Theory um about ideas or political strategy and very quickly with
01:08:51 political strategy and very quickly with Trevor Morris it got on to very personal ground okay and I do feel looking back that he wanted me to trust him and so qu pro quo you tell me something I tell you something it's actually quite
01:09:11 chilling Jenny talking briefly now about be you mentioned it and you talk about it in your witness statement that he spoke to you about his relationship with be what did he say to you about it that she was a really nice person
01:09:27 said he said what made it difficult was that she was the mother of two children and that being with her children made him feel guilty about his own children right and he said it
01:09:43 own children right and he said it fizzled out right so it's very much you only got to know him after that relationship had finished
01:09:50 finished um did you understand did he give you to understand that the relationship had been quite serious for a period of time
01:09:57 I don't
01:09:59 don't right can you recall what prompted him to reveal this information I mean again was this something that you sort of elicited from him or did he offer this up quite
01:10:11 up quite willingly why was he talking about this don't remember how it came up it may have been that you know my friends had told me that he was I brought that up um but I honestly can't the specifics
01:10:26 up um but I honestly can't the specifics that's fine but my understanding is that you did not have a independent friendship with be you didn't know her no I knew her subsequent partner really well but for some reason that part
01:10:41 well but for some reason that part cross it makes sense because I was very involved with the and if was less involved with the then maybe it's just that we didn't go to the same thing sure uh again you've referred to this
01:10:54 sure uh again you've referred to this we'll just explore it a little further your interactions with Bobby you say that you would run into him all the time so he was very much I mean I understand from that a sort
01:11:06 from that a sort of man on the scene like he was around the place very active in group activities and you say that he would you say in your witness statement that he would seek out me and my friends coming over to us and talking to me one
01:11:18 over to us and talking to me one onone and that quite often you and your friends would be at the front of marches so he'd join you there is that that
01:11:32 correct and you think now that that he did that deliberately is that right I mean I it's a bit like a kaleidoscope when I think about his motivation I learn a new fact and then the whole picture changes yeah what I'm
01:11:46 the whole picture changes yeah what I'm actually thinking at the moment is that if he had had a relationship all undercover it was quite useful for him to be seen with young women from different
01:11:53 different branches um you know maybe having a flirtatious conversation maybe also being at the front of the demonstration with those young women um and that it was very convenient for all manner of
01:12:09 was very convenient for all manner of reasons for him to be seen with us why do you think it was convenient to be seen with young women from the organization because he was a a straight goodlooking guy um who didn't openly have a partner and maybe if he was kind
01:12:27 have a partner and maybe if he was kind of flirting with women from across North London that made it more credible right okay
01:12:29 okay um youve describ some of the characteristics he had that made him likable that he was good fun I think you said and that he didn't take himself seriously you also say in your witness
01:12:45 seriously you also say in your witness statement that he gave the impression he could look after himself what what do you mean by
01:12:54 that was really good at observing really good at reading in the mood of what was going on so if we were walking together on a March he would point out something going on in the corner that I hadn't even witnessed he' say look look it's
01:13:06 even witnessed he' say look look it's kicking off down there or he'd say oh the police are closing in here right and it felt like he was really good at reading the mood on the March whereas
01:13:19 reading the mood on the March whereas the rest of us have been more interested in looking to our friends or you know waving a p hold or shouting whatever people around us were shouting and who constantly looking back seems to be observing the bigger was quite strange looking
01:13:31 bigger was quite strange looking back quite sorry what did you just say he was quite strange quite strange to to
01:13:43 he was quite strange quite strange to to see the way he observes these things now that I look back with hindsight at the time it didn't strike me but now it strikes me more clearly um did you have many political discussions with him
01:14:05 I was a rank and far member of the party and a lot of the things I had questions about so I was always asking questions of my own comrades I'd often ask questions of hether Morris do you think we should be organizing in this way do you think we should be going to this
01:14:20 you think we should be going to this event um but at the level of theory I don't remember him having any theoretical discussions of politics um I don't know what his view was on the
01:14:31 was on the question or do men benefit from women's oppression I have no memory of those kind of
01:14:32 kind of discussions right did you saying that's quite unusual for yeah right um did you ever have any
01:14:44 yeah right um did you ever have any conversations about the police and his views on the police or racism in the police we I'm using my words carefully
01:14:56 police we I'm using my words carefully here because I don't want to reveal to personal information no indeed um but I did have in my past an incident of domestic
01:15:08 incident of domestic violence um and I did need the police to get me out of that situation and I did then refuse to press charges against the person in question and when I told Trevor Morris
01:15:19 question and when I told Trevor Morris this in the context of one of our cozy little chats about our backstory he was really really really angry with me for not calling the police right and that
01:15:34 not calling the police right and that struck me as off color at the time did you say anything to him about that at the time did you challenge him on that and say that's a strange opinion to hold in the circles we move in no I I don't
01:15:45 in the circles we move in no I I don't think I did because it was very raw and I didn't like talking about that part of my backstory to anybody
01:15:56 my backstory to anybody that conversation really goes um if we turn now to his activities or what you understood to be his activities in the
01:16:10 understood to be his activities in the swp and the ANL you say in your witness statement that he was known for coming and going at all hours when you say no and what do you mean is this something that you witnessed yourself or something that swp members commented on or
01:16:26 members commented on or both it was both those things um you could guarantee that if there was a house
01:16:30 house party um if Trevor Morris turned up he'd probably just wed in after Midnite sorry Jen I'm sorry I'm just having some problems with my audio it's very
01:16:46 intermittent sorry Jenny it's it just I I we'll keep going but I'll let you know if I'm really struggling to hear what you're saying sorry about that sorry can you can you just repeat what you said so you you noticed yourself that he would come and go yes if there was a house
01:17:06 come and go yes if there was a house party he would gener not be in the house party for the first few hours and he would kind of materialize like Cinderella in Reverse just before midnight um with some story about having been DJing at a wedding yeah
01:17:18 been DJing at a wedding yeah heand okay all right yeah I'm I am struggling to hear I have to say there are some problems um okay we we'll keep going but it's a little bit um little
01:17:29 going but it's a little bit um little bit difficult um in terms of his role Jenny you say in your witness statement that he was active in one of the Hackney branches of the swp and one of only a
01:17:42 branches of the swp and one of only a few leading black comrades in Northeast London I'll just read you what you said you said the party was positioning him
01:17:53 you said the party was positioning him to lead its growing anti-nazi engagement encouraging him to engage with minoritized groups and play a leading role in the ANL he also had a high profile in North London as the DJ at anti-nazi
01:18:11 London as the DJ at anti-nazi fundraisers can I ask this matter of him being positioned to lead its growing anti-nazi
01:18:15 anti-nazi engagement was that something you saw or was that something he told
01:18:32 you the combination of what he said and what the pattern was um so where there were efforts to engage with different groups so if it was a feminist issue then Rank and file women would be encouraged to speak to women's events so is that still bad yes it's not very good I'm afraid to say can I just can we just pause very briefly sorry sir it's just
01:18:45 pause very briefly sorry sir it's just I'm I'm struggling to hear Jenny through my headset I'm not sure what can be done this puzzles me because I can hear perfectly clearly what she says
01:18:59 yeah it's just it keeps moving in and out and I occas I'll periodically completely lose it we're sending a technic to sort this right now okay many apologies Jen your headset fine many apologies Jenny we
01:19:12 headset fine many apologies Jenny we just pause just for a couple of minutes just while they replace the headset
01:19:35 what' you do with
01:19:45 that Jenny how can you can you hear me now I can hear you fine at all points yeah there's no problem okay I can actually hear you now that I've fiddled slightly with it okay should we should we keep going and then we'll see if it becomes absolutely catastrophic we're going to keep going because I've
01:19:57 going to keep going because I've Charlotte had gave me some advice in his word thank you um so Jenny you just said that he was known for coming and going all so he was like Cinderella
01:20:08 all so he was like Cinderella essentially he'd sort of pop up and disappear is that the essence of
01:20:24 itly right and again sorry did that at the time ever caus anyone to comment to have any suspicions or was it always just a tri Ed to his DJ work would be commented on that he was always unfashionably or fashionably late but it was never a CA for speculation
01:20:35 but it was never a CA for speculation about him being a police officer right as far as I remember all right um sorry we'd actually we moved on to his act his role and whether or not he was being teed up for a leadership role uh you
01:20:48 teed up for a leadership role uh you said uh again in your witness statement that you had a strong sense at the time that his Branch were encouraging him to lead ANL activity in Northeast London again where did you get this
01:21:01 London again where did you get this strong sense from was that from him or from
01:21:06 from others I think from him from others and from the way that we organized ourselves um there were very few black comrades um in the ANL and so the
01:21:18 comrades um in the ANL and so the obvious trajectory will be for Bobby Lewis in his undercover persona to have been trained and encouraged and put
01:21:30 been trained and encouraged and put forward to go around speaking about the ANL to build engagement within minoritized communities right my understanding from him was that he didn't really want to do that at all oh that's inter well so he said he was
01:21:41 that's inter well so he said he was reluctant to do it but he was under pressure to take this leading role did he tell you why he was reluctant to do it I don't remember him saying why he
01:21:56 it I don't remember him saying why he was reluctant to do but I think he saw himself as more Rank and F person um so when he describes himself in his police Persona as having been a
01:22:07 in his police Persona as having been a leading East London activist or was an organizer for the ANL in East London that's not my recollection of it it's all
01:22:12 all right
01:22:17 right um you've explained how you open you confided in him some very personal information about your life and I think you've made it clear that one of the reasons you did that is because he
01:22:28 reasons you did that is because he confided in you so it was a reciprocal trust
01:22:36 trust um you say that he also asked you for gossip on other people in the swp is that
01:22:38 that correct this was very much how he operated he didn't seem very interested of the level of theory or ideas but he was very interested in who did what we
01:22:51 was very interested in who did what we and yes he was very very gossipy and he would present a piece of gossip and then almost invite gossip in return um and now I know what I know I
01:23:02 return um and now I know what I know I feel horrific about that because I don't
01:23:13 feel horrific about that because I don't know what information I gave him that he then misused but that's actually really scary because policing felt very personal not very political uh you say that you stopped
01:23:25 political uh you say that you stopped running into him around about 1994 when you moved out of North London and you stopped your involvement in Branch activity is that right yeah I think it may even have been earlier maybe 93 but for being very active I kind of dropped lives all together right and then moved house
01:23:42 together right and then moved house three four times and had a whole period of not being very present anywhere and so I didn't see him because my seeing him was completely in the context of our political activity and or shared anti
01:23:53 political activity and or shared anti naism so you weren't aware you had lost contact with him him before you now understand he himself dropped out of the scene cuz that was 1995 but by by that point you'd stopped I think I in the last weeks of
01:24:11 stopped I think I in the last weeks of his deployment yes sorry so we are going to come to that yes that I I expressed that badly yes because you had one encounter with him um yes so when you
01:24:23 encounter with him um yes so when you saw him again I understand that was July 1995 is that roughly correct again not take
01:24:27 take yeah I mean it's in your witness dat you say is around them um you say that the circumstances in which you met again was because you
01:24:38 in which you met again was because you were in central London and you decided to drop
01:24:44 to drop in to a bar on impulse after the Marxism annual swp conference is that right yes so every July um there'd be kind of a Party Conference type event
01:24:55 kind of a Party Conference type event called Marxism and so that would have been Marxism 95 and I think back in the day it would have been a week or 10 days of
01:25:06 have been a week or 10 days of discussion talks poetry socializing in the evenings and then people would congregate in the bar in central London afterwards and so during the event in
01:25:17 afterwards and so during the event in question I was in central London I was passing through Bloomsbury and completely on impulse if IED to pop in to see who I knew who was there um I
01:25:30 to see who I knew who was there um I dropped out of the S swp so there were any number of people I could have run into yes and yeah that was my sole reason for dropping by to see who I could meet F and you say in your witness statement that you were unsure whether
01:25:43 statement that you were unsure whether they would be pleased to see you why did you feel like that why did you feel uncertain about your reception I think because of the blurring of the lines in activism
01:25:56 blurring of the lines in activism generally I don't think this is unique to thew feel to the left but when you are politically engaged it's your political life it's your friendship group can be your relationships um you are very involved with people very
01:26:12 with people very intimately um and when I dropped out of politics I kind of dropped out of everything very quickly um and so lost contact with a lot of people I've been very close to and missed yeah um but yeah it was It
01:26:30 and missed yeah um but yeah it was It was kind of very abrupt left and so were you feeling slightly bad about that is that fair to say about the abruptness with which that had happened yeah I had some very strong connections and I dropped those connections right um now when you came
01:26:46 connections right um now when you came into this bar uh can you describe what did Bobby do what did he do when he first saw you my memory of this is that I walked in and I was looking to see who I recognize and then out of nowhere
01:26:57 I recognize and then out of nowhere appears Bobby big hug go my God where have you been and kind of pulls me over and starts talking about you know catching up on where I've been for the past year and 18
01:27:09 past year and 18 months um so yeah lots of questions um and is it fair to infer from that that he seemed happy to see you yeah he
01:27:20 he seemed happy to see you yeah he seemed thrilled and given that you were feeling slightly anxious you said or slightly nervous coming into this bar how did that how did this response from him how did that make you feel I I felt Grace I felt quite B over it was lovely
01:27:36 Grace I felt quite B over it was lovely to see him again good friends and having not been served of my welcome I felt very welcomed so that was lovely it when you had seen him more regularly had you
01:27:47 you had seen him more regularly had you considered him quite a good friend like how close would you have considered yourselves to be I think you have your Frontline friendships where you arrange to see people and make AR ments and then you have your kind of second third tier friendships where you're always really
01:28:01 friendships where you're always really pleased to see people and you spend time with them when you spend time with them um and i' put Trev Morris in the second third category so whenever I ran into him he would come over to me and my
01:28:13 him he would come over to me and my friends and we spend time together um but I wasn't seeking him out independently of that understood so you get this very effusive welcome from him
01:28:29 get this very effusive welcome from him on this occasion and you you say in your witness statement that you had a couple of drinks together is that right I had the drinks he was no total right it's one thing that really stood out about him that he didn't drink and he didn't
01:28:41 him that he didn't drink and he didn't smoke but he would go down the par okay and how long did you spend together in this bar
01:28:44 this bar roughly I couldn't tell you the time passed really quickly right and did he say much about himself during this conversation in the bar just about what he was up
01:28:56 he was up to
01:29:00 to his at what point he revealed it whether it was in the bar or whether it was after we left together that he did tell me that evening he was dropping out and that he was trying to reunite with his
01:29:17 that he was trying to reunite with his wife can I just look into that a little bit more closely so he he told you he was dropping out of the swp did he tell you anything more about trying to get back to together with his wife how that how he planned to make that
01:29:28 that happen I think the focus of the conversation was very much not on him dropping out of the swp was about how he was leaving London to reunite with his wife right and the story he gave me is
01:29:42 wife right and the story he gave me is slightly different to the story he gave other people he told me that he had persuaded his wife to take him back for the sake of the kids and I think that's a fairly direct quote and that the way
01:29:55 a fairly direct quote and that the way they were planning to do this was that they would move together to Spain for a fresh start right and I think that's a fairly direct quote as well okay and when you say it was different from the
01:30:06 when you say it was different from the story he told other people what did you understand to be the story that he told other people I think he told other people that he was going either to Egypt or to Germany right when he told you this that this
01:30:21 right when he told you this that this was what he was doing how how did you react to that
01:30:30 I think having known him on some kind of personal level I mean I really did think I I did know him on some personal level um I was really happy for him because I knew how much he desperately missed or said he missed his kids and he'd said to me that all he
01:30:43 kids and he'd said to me that all he wanted this was a consistent story he told me throughout he wanted to be there for his kids and he hadn't been there for his kids and finally he was getting
01:30:56 for his kids and finally he was getting the chance to do that and I was thrilled for him I thought I knew I thought I understood how much that meant to him
01:31:07 understood how much that meant to him and you refer to the fact that he said he was going to drop because to make this work with his wife he would be retreating from his political activities with the swp how did you feel specifically when he told you that was that something and sorry just to make it
01:31:23 that something and sorry just to make it slightly clearer that he felt I think my understanding is that he he felt slightly bad about dropping out of political activity is that right is that what he said yeah that was a very very much the thrust of how we talk that
01:31:34 much the thrust of how we talk that night I had dropped out and said that I felt terrible about dropping out and he said something along the lines of well I'm dropping out as well and I'm not sure how that's going to work for me and I feel really bad about doing this as
01:31:47 I feel really bad about doing this as well but this is something I have to do to be able toite with my wife so in effect that was another point of connection for the two of you in the sense that you could that resonated with you yeah that he understood that
01:32:00 you yeah that he understood that sometimes life takes over yeah that was how that was going for him I understand Jenny
01:32:11 Jenny that after you'd had some time with him in this bar he offered to give you a left home is that correct and I think you spoke I mean some of this information may have come out in that car Journey can you tell us
01:32:26 out in that car Journey can you tell us what happened when you got back to your house oh we didn't go back to my house we went back to his bed seit right and can I ask what what when you pulled up in the car then what happened I think it was as we were
01:32:38 happened I think it was as we were traveling he suggested coming back to his um for a cup of tea I think and to continue the conversation and I think by the time he raised it he'd said that he
01:32:54 the time he raised it he'd said that he was leaving and this was pretty much the last time we'd see each other and and I think now that he manipulated me into kind of agreeing to go back for a cup of tea with him um on the basis this was going to be the last time we saw each
01:33:05 going to be the last time we saw each other right and I think that's I agree to go back with him
01:33:12 right when you got back to his flat you say that you noticed that there were no personal belongings in the flat is that correct it was so empty it was actually
01:33:25 correct it was so empty it was actually quite striking I even remember it all in ter terms of beige um I think there was a sofa I think there was a bed there were no books there were no pamphlets his record
01:33:36 books there were no pamphlets his record collection I couldn't see the only thing that I remember being there and this is etched on my memory bizar is there was a tube of Pon cocoa butter right and was that the only
01:33:48 butter right and was that the only personal item in the FL then the only thing I saw did comment on the lack of
01:34:00 thing I saw did comment on the lack of personal belongings in the flat or was this just something you took note of internally I think I just noted it internally and I guess if his story was
01:34:11 internally and I guess if his story was that he was leaving he might conceivably have packed already um I don't remember us having a conversation about him having packed already right but I suppose The Emptiness made sense given that he was off yeah um I understand that then when you were back at his flat
01:34:23 that then when you were back at his flat you talked for quite a long time is that right
01:34:24 right right and is it right to say that you were getting on really well that again you were
01:34:40 you were really very relaxed with him felt very ease in his company found him easy to talk to is that fair to say and were you talking I mean again this can be inferred from what you said but just to make it clear talking about quite personal things is that right talking about where we were going
01:34:55 right talking about where we were going in our Liv lives the choices we've made in the past how we felt about our political activities far how we felt about leaving political activity what
01:35:06 about leaving political activity what the future might hold right but each us separately not together yeah yeah no um now when you were talking on the sofa you say in your witness statement that
01:35:18 you say in your witness statement that he was sitting close to you and that he was flirtatious is that
01:35:31 was flirtatious is that correct my memor is that he edged closer right yeah you sat together on sofa and he kind of rally Advanced um so from that you mean that he he was initiating taking things in a sexual direction is that fair to say it's very fair to
01:35:46 fair to say uh and he kissed you he took the initiative to do that is that right right now obviously we won't go into details but I understand from your witness statement that then you you
01:35:58 witness statement that then you you reciprocated and you did end up sleeping with him you spent that night together is that right you slept with each other you slept with each other um and you left you gave him a
01:36:12 um and you left you gave him a present which was a book called my traitor's heart is that correct and uh can I ask how did he react when you gave him this book did he receive it gladly
01:36:35 I think he may have looked at the title and looked at the subject matter it was the ending of a parti and about coming to change from position of divided loyalty um so I feel the book is really ironic now looking back but I don't know
01:36:46 ironic now looking back but I don't know that he remarked on it at the time right but it's fair to assume given that you gave him a book that when you parted you parted on good terms yeah did and you say in your witness statement that
01:36:59 say in your witness statement that subsequently after this obviously before you found out the truth about him that um you felt fondly towards him is that fair to
01:37:06 fair to say yes always so it was a positive memory yeah I felt he was a nice guy who made a really big mistake in his
01:37:24 made a really big mistake in his relationship and who really wanted to do right by his loved ones and been a nice guy to know and I wished him well I think 19 West I wished him well gave him a hug and we went off separate
01:37:38 a hug and we went off separate ways now Jenny I just want to take you now to the sections of his witness statement where he refers to this encounter with you um this is Trevor Morris's witness statement which is
01:37:54 35076 it's Pages 15 4 it goes on to 155 it's paragraph
01:38:02 204 and he
01:38:15 States um I'm not going to read all the the entire paragraph but a section of it I also had a one incident of sexual activity with a different woman immediately prior to my ceasing deployment I do not recognize the name Jenny my recollection is that the woman involved had a Spanish sounding
01:38:31 involved had a Spanish sounding surname and if I can now go to paragraph 204b which is on page
01:38:42 156 and he says here the one off incident with the other woman happened right at the end of my deployment whilst I think I met her through the swp andl connections I never saw her as an active member and did not report on her
01:38:54 member and did not report on her at the end of my deployment I maintained my exfiltration story that I was leaving the UK to return to Germany to reunite with my AR strange wife and family and that led to us spending one night
01:39:08 that led to us spending one night together okay you can bring that down thank you can I ask Jenny how do you feel about Bobby not recognizing your
01:39:22 name the immediate thing that struck me when I read this was what how many one night stands did you have and if you can't remember were there others um I have my own reasons for knowing why he doesn't know my name right we don't need to yeah we don't need to go there um do you is there
01:39:37 need to go there um do you is there anything else about these extracts that you want to comment on it's quite flip and dismissive isn't it I don't think he's owning the choices he made in sleeping with me sleeping more seriously with be for the best part
01:39:52 more seriously with be for the best part of year it's all a little bit well sorry if I did not sorry that I
01:40:02 did I'd like to explore now how you found out that he was an undercover officer you say in your witness statement Jenny that you found out in July
01:40:08 July 2019 can I ask how did you find
01:40:20 out I found out when the undercover research group posted on social media a very familiar photo of a person big beard and a bar and I think they put it
01:40:32 beard and a bar and I think they put it on Facebook and a friend of mine shared that photo with the link at the end of her research group and I was lazily scrolling through one afternoon and it hit me between the eyes like a f frame so it's completely chance
01:40:47 frame so it's completely chance Discovery if I hadn't been on Facebook that there wouldn't know now what was your immediate reaction on finding out I mean you've said a being run over by train can you elaborate on
01:41:08 that I I I don't want to be dramatic about it but it did feel as there's something very fundamental fell through completely something I was very certain about was no longer
01:41:25 true and what impct Jenny did that have on your relationships going forward so for example your ability to trust or to trust yourself trust your own
01:41:37 trust yourself trust your own judgment are we going straight through to this because if there isn't of a break I think now might be quite a good time to just well there's a little I mean I would say there's about probably
01:41:55 mean I would say there's about probably about another 15 20 minutes to go but if you'd like a break do you feel like you would need a break you can do this better if I had a break right um forgive me for speaking as a disembodied voice but I hope you recognize it now um we will have a break
01:42:12 recognize it now um we will have a break for 15 minutes now to enable you to have a break but there will then have to be another one when your questioning by Miss molan has ended you content with that
01:42:20 that good then we'll resume in 15 minutes
01:42:52 for
02:01:50 e e
02:02:33 yes Jenny before the break we were talking
02:02:38 talking about you finding out that Bobby Trevor Morris was a UC and how you felt about that and you talked about your immediate reaction but we were moving on to the
02:02:51 reaction but we were moving on to the sort of long longer terms effects longer term effects sorry that it had on you and and one of those I understand is your it's affected your ability to trust people is that correct can you elaborate on that for us Jenny yeah absolutely I
02:03:05 on that for us Jenny yeah absolutely I hope that the microphone is working now um yeah absolutely I I now question everybody I know I think about people's motivations I wonder who they really are um and having been so wrong about
02:03:19 are um and having been so wrong about Trevor Morris I wonder who else in my past I've been so wrong about um I have a short list in my head of probably four people from my past who I wonder were undercover offices and
02:03:33 wonder were undercover offices and because I've had no disclosure I guess I'm going to wonder to the end of my days about who was and who wasn't who they said they were um so that's been really quite
02:03:48 really quite destabilizing yeah and in terms of your your own judgment has it had an effect on that
02:03:50 on that Jenny yeah it's it's really led me to question everything I know and believe
02:04:02 question everything I know and believe um a lot of what I do um is to do with analyzing things and people correctly and I always thought I could read a room I always felt that I I did have a really strong sense of who people are and since I didn't have a strong
02:04:17 are and since I didn't have a strong sense of who this person was that leads me to question everything else um and I don't feel particularly safe now I mean one thing was that I
02:04:28 safe now I mean one thing was that I found out about Trevor Morris six months before we went into lockdown and lockdown was quite a strange isolating time where everything moved to Virtual um but yeah I was kind of alone with my thoughts a lot and one thing
02:04:40 with my thoughts a lot and one thing that happened very quickly was once I found out who this person was I went to see somebody from the undercover
02:04:53 see somebody from the undercover research group that was my first point of contact with this inquiry actually and on the day I went to see the researcher I was walking through the middle of my town and there was a police helicopter nearby and on a rational level I know that this is really stupid
02:05:08 level I know that this is really stupid but on a really basic level of fear and panic I felt that the helicopter was there because I was going to meet this person um and the other thing that happened quite regularly was I became
02:05:20 happened quite regularly was I became really paranoid about people walking too closely behind me and that's a really big problem if you live in a big town or a big city and it got to the point where I'd have to stop and let that person go past um and that led to a few angry
02:05:36 past um and that led to a few angry confrontations with people who couldn't quite understand why I was being so irrational and so Twitchy um so the impact has been quite noticeable I would say have you felt able to talk to anyone about the impacts
02:05:56 able to talk to anyone about the impacts is it something you feel you can discuss with people or is it something you feel you can't that you have to keep to yourself I feel massive amounts of paranoia shame guilt um it's it's not something that I
02:06:08 guilt um it's it's not something that I like to talk about at all and I'm really grateful that I got to meet the other women and the other Co participants who understand from the inside how this is because I think if you haven't gone
02:06:24 because I think if you haven't gone through it's impossible to even begin to understand the depths of it's a feeling of being
02:06:26 of being exposed of being watched it's a bit like I mean this is maybe overstating it but there are times when I feel I've been strip surged or violated is that what you mean
02:06:42 surged or violated is that what you mean completely completely violated on for my politics but in a really personal way and when you say you feel shame and guilt why do you feel shame and guilt Jenny I feel a lot of Shame and guilt because Trevor Morris asked me for a lot
02:06:58 because Trevor Morris asked me for a lot of personal information about people who were my
02:06:59 were my friends and I really worry that maybe other people have things on their police fars because of things that I reported completely naively and
02:07:10 completely naively and innocently um or things that Trevor Morris may have asked me that he then used against them in some way and again because I've had no disclosure I have no idea what material he gathered
02:07:22 idea what material he gathered and what material he used for what purposes so do you mean that you have a sense there might be more Horrors to come as it were is that your feeling or
02:07:37 come as it were is that your feeling or just a sense of you still don't know the extent of it you feel you still don't know the extent of it I think it's probably both of those things I have no idea what information he says he didn't report on me but then why befriend
02:07:57 why befriend me you know now Jenny that when you had that encounter with him it was just before his deployment ended what do you feel about that I feel dirty and disgusting and
02:08:11 that I feel dirty and disgusting and used and what I feel on a larger level is that he slept with me because he could because he was working for a body of the state that had no checks and no balances in place to stop this Behavior AV he was very close friends I think
02:08:24 AV he was very close friends I think with a lot of undercover officers who have slept with other women in category H and he rates them as good officers so
02:08:36 H and he rates them as good officers so I think there was a whole culture either don't ask don't tell all these men were egging each other on and bragging about their exploits and I think all of us would really love to know
02:08:50 which you also now know that the story he relay to you on that evening was his exfiltration story a
02:09:04 evening was his exfiltration story a version of it anyway uh that story that you say elicited some sympathy in you and a sense of connection how do you feel about that uh for me massively manipulated and for his wife deeply deeply
02:09:19 sorry Jenny we understand from your witness statement you've had no contact with with Bobby with Trevor moris since you discovered the truth uh and no apology from him um I'd like to bring up just what he
02:09:35 um I'd like to bring up just what he says in his witness statement about both you and be this is
02:09:39 35076 It's
02:09:44 page9 and paragraph
02:09:49 2040 I mean o sorry
02:09:57 and he States my present attitude to the relationship with be and the sexual encounter with the other women is that they happened I regret them because it would be better for everyone if they had not happened but at the time they happened I was for all intents and
02:10:12 happened I was for all intents and purposes my alter ego and not hn 78 so I lived this Ultra Deep Cover I was in a situation that probably caused me not to think about the consequences what's your reaction to that comment Jenny I mean yes
02:10:28 that comment Jenny I mean yes sorry so to summarize that in two words oh
02:10:30 oh whoops I mean just
02:10:34 just unbelievable insulting to be insulting to me insulting to all the women I think he's sorry that he got caught out on
02:10:47 he's sorry that he got caught out on this that we came forward I don't think he's sorry that he did it and in fact his claiming it wasn't really him at all yeah
02:10:59 how you also make the point in your witness statement that he himself makes contradictory statements about his sexual relationship so I don't think we need to bring it up but we can if we feel it's necessary at some point
02:11:15 feel it's necessary at some point paragraph 204 M little Roman numeral I page8 he says that he considered the impact of his sexual relationships but then in another place in his witness statement so paragraph 204 that we've just looked at he said
02:11:27 204 that we've just looked at he said that being deep undercover meant he did not think about the consequences of choosing to sleep with women activists so what conclusions do you
02:11:38 activists so what conclusions do you draw about the fact that he contradicts himself what what do you think about that do you want to comment on that I think I'm right in saying that he was questioned prior to 2019 when B and I both separately found out about him um
02:11:53 I both separately found out about him um and I don't think he brought up then the question of his sexual relationships so I actually think that he's been caught out and C out by the women and by the courage of the women
02:12:05 women and by the courage of the women who went before and I think he's really sorry to have been caught out but I don't think he gives a damn about us our human rights the invasion of our privacy the invasion of our loved ones
02:12:20 the invasion of our loved ones privacy yeah he's just Brazen isn't he really
02:12:27 can I ask you this Jenny if You' known that Bobby Lewis was a police officer would you have an undercover police office specifically would you have been friends with him no would you have
02:12:42 friends with him no would you have confided in him no would you have slept with him God no you describe in your witness statement the behavior of undercover officers who slept with women in their target groups you describe it as state sanctioned rape can you explain what you mean by that please
02:13:03 I think sex without consent is rape I did not consent to sleep with officer H n78 I did not consent to sleep with Trevor Morris he used his fake identity to manipulate me and at least one other women into sleeping with him where none
02:13:15 women into sleeping with him where none of us would have slept with him and he's lied and he's fudged and he's not giving straight answers and I don't feel he's
02:13:26 straight answers and I don't feel he's being held to account but beyond him is a police
02:13:28 a police structure and powers of authorization and the Metropolitan
02:13:39 authorization and the Metropolitan Police and this didn't just happen to me this didn't just happen to be this has happened to 60
02:13:48 women Jenny I've come to the end of the questions that I want to ask you is there anything else you'd like to say at this stage for the chairman to take into consideration would I want
02:13:59 more I'm there's no rush at
02:14:09 all this has happened to 60 plus women that we know about I came forward because I discovered on social media by accident that this happened to me there
02:14:21 accident that this happened to me there are probably well dozens of other women this happened to you that don't yet know I want as many women to have as much
02:14:30 much information and take your
02:14:45 time we know that this happened to 60 women at
02:14:50 women at least they deserve the truth as much as we Des deserve the truth that come forward I don't want any woman to go through
02:14:57 through this
02:15:01 again this has to
02:15:06 stop thank you
02:15:22 Jenny Jenny I know this is not easy for you um could I ask you to be patient for another 15 minutes while those who may have questions to ask through Miss monan of you have the opportunity to put them to
02:15:30 to her yes thank you fine thank
02:15:49 you
02:17:49 e e
02:18:36 1:00 on Wednesday we
02:18:59 Jenny there are no questions so that brings matters today to an end thank you thank
02:19:10 you jenet thank you as I thank all Witnesses who were assisting me in this inquiry but especially those who like you have to tell deeply personal things that occurred to them many years
02:19:23 things that occurred to them many years ago it is very helpful andum inating for me and I'm very grateful to you thank you thank you very
02:19:38 much for the outside world that concludes today's proceedings unusually this week we are not going to sit tomorrow but will be sitting on Wednesday with a starting time of 1:00
02:19:51 Wednesday with a starting time of 1:00 which is then going to run through until proceedings close on Wednesday so there will be no lunch break after one thank
02:20:19 you e
02:21:19 because
02:24:49 e e