Morning testimony from HN78 Trevor Morris who infiltrated socialist and anti-racist groups in the 1990s. The session examines his reporting on justice campaigns, police monitoring groups, and particularly contentious discussions about his colleague Peter Francis and reporting on the Stephen Lawrence family campaign.
00:21:27 e e
00:22:33 oops good morning everybody Welcome to the 14th day of our evidential hearings uh those in the back will have heard what I'm about to say many times before but I must repeat it uh you may use any mobile electronic device you have to
00:22:45 mobile electronic device you have to transmit silently to the outside world what you've seen and heard in the inquiry but only 10 minutes after the event that you're describing has happened that is to fit in with the
00:23:03 happened that is to fit in with the 10-minute time lapse on the live stream by which our proceedings are broadcast you may not use devices for recording proceedings or for taking photographs Mr B thank you sir uh Mr Morris we're moving now to your reporting on Justice campaigns police monitoring groups and
00:23:23 campaigns police monitoring groups and the like I'd like to start with a report um about the group Liberty which is at tab c82 sir 2817 nine for the
00:23:43 projector uh this is a report filed as one of
00:23:43 one of yours dated the 27th of July 1992 the material Parts read a leaflet
00:23:56 1992 the material Parts read a leaflet distributed at the Hackney show on the 19th of July 1992 by Liberty North London group a
00:24:08 1992 by Liberty North London group a copy of which is attached to this report relates to many alleged miscarriages of justice and puts forward three basic demands to combat mild practices in the British system of justice a member of the organization has stated that they
00:24:20 the organization has stated that they intend to form a branch in Hackney as due to the depressed conditions which
00:24:31 due to the depressed conditions which many of the burough residents experience and the perceived police repression there is a real need for the organization to focus on this area Liberty has come to the notice of
00:24:42 area Liberty has come to the notice of special Branch previously in connection with the National Council for civil liberties and is dealt with and then there's a file reference uh why was it
00:24:59 reference uh why was it necessary to file a report about a group which campaigned against miscarriages of Justice well clearly the bottom bit um which you're saying is yeah pyro four is not something that I've written
00:25:13 four is not something that I've written so that may have been put on the but and and I don't really recollect the report um that said I could see how the report for
00:25:26 said I could see how the report for General special Branch work would be of interest and what what I mean by that is desk work on cquad and maybe at some stage I should
00:25:39 cquad and maybe at some stage I should explain how the branch worked so you can understand because the same question keeps coming up time and time again yeah and it's going to come up some more so yes if you would like to explain how
00:25:54 yes if you would like to explain how this report would have been treated by C Squad please do so so basically special branch which had been running for 100 Years by then um was the National Security agency mpsb Metropolitan Police Special Branch was a National Security Agency of the police it um uh was in
00:26:10 Agency of the police it um uh was in Norway ship all means of cotti Industry it had um the 16th 17th 18th and 19 floors of New Scotland Yard there was only access to that via individuals who
00:26:21 only access to that via individuals who were special Branch officers and had its own computer systems etc etc so that's the first thing um it was broken up into various squads a squad being protection C Squad being Irish and we had the
00:26:32 C Squad being Irish and we had the national responsibility for combating the IRA and other Irish Republican groups C Squad dealt with internal uh matters coming straight out of Great Britain uh esquad dealt with
00:26:45 Britain uh esquad dealt with International matters in Britain because at one stage of course as you know Britain ran a third of the world um um and a third of the world's population everything circled around London so all
00:27:03 everything circled around London so all the newish and they were newish then the new States that had been created after the fall of the parts of the British Empire they all sat in London and a massive activity went on that related to political matters people trying to assassinate people Etc take over
00:27:14 assassinate people Etc take over people's countries etc etc etc um so that was esquad and we had a European liaison section that dealt with our European colleagues who do the same job
00:27:26 European colleagues who do the same job a special branch in Europe and they were generally police Security Services like the DST or in France or in Spain or wherever we had that LE aison we had some offices over there they had some officers here um then we had our
00:27:37 officers here um then we had our surveillance sections and Technical sections and we had joint sections with the security service so looking at that as a special Branch officer I'm looking at what each section
00:27:53 officer I'm looking at what each section was interested in and if I broke C Squad down that would be extreme rightwing extreme leftwing animal type of Liberation um globalized well not really globalization then that would have been environmentalism anti-nuclear operations and uh Espionage because special Branch
00:28:07 and uh Espionage because special Branch Metropolitan Police Special Branch must be precise was the organization that would take spies into court and charge the spies Etc and work close with the security service part of the joint units they had there so in this with this we
00:28:21 they had there so in this with this we and it's the Cold War time or just after we were always looking at putting together systems which would in some way shape our means explain how um subversion or trying to undermine or
00:28:33 subversion or trying to undermine or cause fractions within the British State how they would function because you have to understand that foreign agencies obviously attempted to Foster problems
00:28:47 obviously attempted to Foster problems in the United Kingdom as we attempted to Foster problems in their countries in the Cold War so this is how we were brought up and taught I joined the special Branch uh basically after two years of being in the Metropol police I had my six months I if I could just stop you there please
00:29:03 you there please um what um what I'm interested in is how with all that background
00:29:10 knowledge you came to think that this report this information about Liberty yep would be of interest to special Branch because as I as I was just saying and explaining
00:29:22 I as I was just saying and explaining through the whole aspect of what special Branch does is that this would be an area in which special Branch may keep some information as to see what is affecting the fizzes and fractures of
00:29:34 affecting the fizzes and fractures of the United Kingdom particularly in this case uh um London and see what is happening within communities because communities could be utilized to undermine the fabric of our
00:29:51 undermine the fabric of our nation Liberty is not a group that seeks to overthrow the state is no it isn't and Liberty is not a group which is inciting public dis no it isn't it is simply a campaigning organization Li is working within an
00:30:05 organization Li is working within an area where others attempting to get into those areas May well be so it's it's it's not always necessarily straightforward you've got to see the nuances of inside and outside but that's not up to me that's now up to the desk
00:30:16 not up to me that's now up to the desk to look at that either with or without the the security service because it dependent upon their area and to see whether there is anything there if it's not of any interest it will be pushed aside can I take from the answer you've just given me that it is enough to be
00:30:28 just given me that it is enough to be working with people who are of concern to special Branch to Merit reporting to
00:30:40 to special Branch to Merit reporting to Merit reporting that doesn't mean to say that it's going to Merit recording now obviously it has merited recording because I can see that there is a file there which says 4851 166 so there is a file so that is of some interest and that may well be a security
00:30:58 interest and that may well be a security service file as well thank you very much indeed uh can we take that down can we go now sir to tab 104
00:31:09 3784 and we're moving to the uh Hackney Community defense Association
00:31:40 this is a report dated the 11th of October 1992 it's an event performer um about an event at the Rio Cinema uh in n16 um about the showing of a film by
00:31:52 n16 um about the showing of a film by the anti-racist alliance so this event was the latest in a series being held by the arra which is competing with other leftwing organizations for the heritage
00:32:04 leftwing organizations for the heritage of Malcolm X and thereby the support of the black community three films were shown all concerning black issues in between them Mark wodsworth warned the audience of contracts being perpetrated
00:32:18 audience of contracts being perpetrated by the black community I beg your pardon perpetrated on the black community by both the Revolutionary Socialist Party which he stated was known as militant which had formed the pan the UK party
00:32:29 which had formed the pan the UK party and also by the Socialist Workers Party which had produced a revisionist book on Malcolm X from the swp Viewpoint
00:32:41 Malcolm X from the swp Viewpoint Wadsworth urged those present to reject them and join the a leaflets advertising a number of forthcoming events were distributed and if we could look please at page8
00:33:03 uh this is one of the attached leaflets uh this uh it's right isn't it looking down the right hand side of the document is a leaflet produced by the Hackney Community defense
00:33:17 Hackney Community defense Association uh it's advertising a public meeting entitled fighting the lawmen and if we look down the text on the left hand
00:33:30 the left hand side in April 1991 a Scotland Yard inquiry was set up to investigate allegations of drug dealing theft and conspiracy to pervert the course of Justice by Stoke Newington Police
00:33:43 Justice by Stoke Newington Police Officers since then one police officer has been charged with theft and vat fraud one ex Stoke Newington officer shot himself dead three officers have
00:33:58 shot himself dead three officers have been suspended from Duty eight officers were transferred from sto new inton on one day Hackney Community defense Association has conducted its own investigation it has discovered officers
00:34:10 investigation it has discovered officers have illegally confiscated drugs and the proceeds from dealing officers have supplied street level dealers with drugs officers ran a protection from prosecution racket officers fabricated
00:34:25 prosecution racket officers fabricated evidence against people who got in their way come to this meeting to find out more and hear four innocent people who suffered at the hands of
00:34:36 suffered at the hands of police stopping there it's right isn't
00:34:49 police stopping there it's right isn't it that that in this period at The Stoke Newington Police Station had um an Infamous reputation absolutely uh did you attend the meeting well this particular meeting yes I'm guessing I must have I was also at the
00:35:05 guessing I must have I was also at the uh HQ and I also put in you should find several other reports which I wrote especially on these issues explaining that action needed to be taken about the drug dealing of officers going on they
00:35:16 drug dealing of officers going on they should be in your pack there somewhere I'm guessing um because this is one of the things that I wish to Stamp Out hence the
00:35:31 hence the report if we move now to uh document 28231 tab
00:35:46 103 this is an event performer which appears to have been based upon the leaflet we've just looked at because it is um about the same event fighting the
00:36:04 is um about the same event fighting the Lawman just says the hcda is using this occasion to present the results of its investigation into corruption and illegality by police at Stone Newington the testimony of four people who have allegedly suffered at the hands of police will be heard so you certainly
00:36:16 police will be heard so you certainly thought that it merited more than just submitting the leaflet it absolutely I thought it was out and out corruption and I have no reason to think that it
00:36:27 and I have no reason to think that it wasn't true at that particular stage um I think they even showed me if I remember correctly the unit showed me some of the files that they had and I was pretty much convinced that it was true hence sent out several reports
00:36:43 true hence sent out several reports including this and others um and um you know wrote that obviously should be investigated by the body that does that which is not special branch of course because it's a general police thing so I'm guessing they passed it onto CID through a aison can you recall how you
00:36:59 through a aison can you recall how you the circumstances in which you came to be given access to the files they brought me in I knew the individuals I can't remember them there I know but I knew some of the individuals and they just brought me in at that stage I was
00:37:15 just brought me in at that stage I was in um swp which give you access to a lot of places because you're an swp person and if there was a demonstration that they wanted they wished for swp people to be on the demonstration so therefore they always G guessed I thought that to be have a friend in the swp if they
00:37:30 be have a friend in the swp if they wanted demonstrate is not negative um so that is basically how I would have obtained access I can't remember exactly how it was but I remember that I was shocked at what they had passed it
00:37:41 shocked at what they had passed it through we had as I explained about C Squad there's an aerial aaon section of cquad which they would then have
00:37:53 cquad which they would then have sanitized the report to pass to the area C or whatever to deal with this issue what was your understanding of the
00:38:07 issue what was your understanding of the purpose of the Hackney Community defense Association in showing the files to you as an swp I guess just to get more people on the demonstration if they wanted it or whatever or just comrades to comrades type of thing is this access that was given to everybody who me I
00:38:19 that was given to everybody who me I think I as a black guy they thought I was okay and I got on with them and um
00:38:33 was okay and I got on with them and um for whatever reason they showed me their info what sort of discussions were you having with your managers in the safe house as this access was developing I mean we weren't going to exploit it any further than what it was
00:38:48 exploit it any further than what it was just just that's it great fantastic and I said you know something needs to be done about the corruption there they've got really good info that needs to be looked at and that needs to be dealt with something to that I'm par phrasing obvious I don't know exactly what I said
00:39:03 obvious I don't know exactly what I said sure and what was the reaction as far as you can recall of your managers I think they said great Le
00:39:13 aison we don't in fact have any reports of the
00:39:20 of the underlying intelligence to support these allegations are you sure sorry sorry I don't understand what you're saying about that the underline we've got the reports I've just shown you correct but you don't have any others we don't have a report from you saying I've had access to files this is what they
00:39:32 to files this is what they show distributed to area Lia on no I wouldn't put distributed leas on I would have just said this is what I've got um I would have put the reports in as I as I have these there's probably as I said
00:39:44 I have these there's probably as I said I think there's others that should have gone now as you know when special Branch was disbanded in 2008 a lot of files
00:39:56 was disbanded in 2008 a lot of files were shredded that may have been some of them because the security service took the files they wanted and some of the others were shredded
00:40:01 would this have been intelligence that would have been of interest to the security service probably not which is why it probably was
00:40:12 shredded do you know oh well first of all are you absolutely sure that you made such report absolutely secondly do you know what was done with that intelligence I don't have a
00:40:26 don't have a clue did you ever get any feedback of any kind
00:40:31 any kind when I'm in the field uh and that was the same for the security service reports and they were saying good work when you're in the field you don't want in your head a whole lot of things about what's going what's happening with your report you don't want that you you just want a a clear mind as clear as you can
00:40:47 want a a clear mind as clear as you can just to get on with the job you're doing it's it's difficult enough to keep your sanity without trying to put things in your mind I've reported what it is it's up to them the desk the AAL aison is a section of a desk of death for them to
00:41:00 section of a desk of death for them to deal with their issues it's not my issue it's their issue could we take that down now please could we move to tab uh c139 please sir
00:41:32 3303 we could have perhaps the top half of their first page um expanded first of all
00:41:42 please uh again an event Pro forer again filed under your name about an event on the 3 of June 1993 at the Colin roach Center 6A Bradbury Street E8 can I just stop there and ask you how frequently did you
00:41:56 and ask you how frequently did you attend the col Colin I I don't really recall call it as as a call I I explained yesterday that basically I I shut down most of what I did then so if you say to me the colon Ro Center means very little to me as it stands
00:42:14 very little to me as it stands now uh and it says uh Mark meta of the hcda called this meeting of Representatives of all the anti-racist groups active in Hackney with a view to
00:42:26 groups active in Hackney with a view to persuading them to act in concert or at least with greater cooperation the Hackney anti-fascist Collective AFC has been set up as a
00:42:42 Collective AFC has been set up as a framework for this and it is effectively synonymous with the Hackney Community defense Association the anti-racist alliance AR and panther UK Representatives sent their apologies do you recall this initiative by Mr meta to unite I know you're
00:42:57 by Mr meta to unite I know you're reading it out I think I have some memory of
00:42:58 memory of it and was this um of interest to special Branch yeah I mean Panther UK in particular trying to do what the pla
00:43:10 particular trying to do what the pla party party for self-defense did in the United States which you know was not a negative party in my mind but would have been for the US state um it was trying to do the same in Britain be a bit more
00:43:21 to do the same in Britain be a bit more militant Etc so that was probably of in well not probably would be of interest um it wasn't a massive organization it was just to get a feel of what that organization was doing and again knowing where it goes it's up to the desk then
00:43:39 where it goes it's up to the desk then to expand upon utilize see where it goes uh that sort of organ that sort of aspect AR as I said before I saw as a pretty much straightforward organization but with massive
00:43:56 but with massive entryism and uh um again that's up to the desk to look at that and I guess they've got some reporting on files somewhere which you could look at
00:44:02 um yeah it it all makes sense reporting it absolutely uh is as you you understood it what is the connection between the Hackney anti-fascist Collective and the unity Group which
00:44:18 Collective and the unity Group which organized the demonstration in Welling in October
00:44:24 93 I'm not totally or but they seem to come together in order
00:44:35 but they seem to come together in order to boost the numbers on that and not to allow it to be an swp
00:44:45 Fest um we needn't bother with most of the detail of this report but if we go over the page to the top of page two
00:45:01 thank you a proposal to attack BNP paper sellers at Brick Lane was vetoed given the groups that were here
00:45:15 vetoed given the groups that were here presumably that was no surprise um bit of a surprise re Panther but the others not so
00:45:27 much can we uh move now to the will Winston silcott defense campaign tab 60 7
00:45:29 7 28159
00:45:36 [Music]
00:45:43 please this is an event profor for an event on
00:45:45 event on Wednesday the 17th of June 1992 the event is due to take place a begger pardon this is an Expos facto
00:45:56 begger pardon this is an Expos facto report the event took place outside B Street magistrates Court uh the organization was a Winston silop defense campaign it was a picket in relation to the court appearance of Chief
00:46:11 the court appearance of Chief superintendent Melvin says the organizer was George silcott uh and the text says at about 1015 hours George silcott addressed the assembled
00:46:20 assembled demonstrators informing them that their presence would now make it difficult for the state quiet to discharge the case against Chief superintendent Melvin as
00:46:35 against Chief superintendent Melvin as proof of this hypothesis he alluded to the previous lack of interest in the trial taken by the media various groups were represented amongst the demonstrators including the Socialist Workers Party militant tendency and the
00:46:47 Workers Party militant tendency and the Revolutionary communist group less than onethird of those present were from the
00:46:59 onethird of those present were from the black community some attempts were made to draw parallels between this hearing and the Rodney King trial
00:47:12 and the Rodney King trial um I'm assuming that you would say that the involvement of the various groups was an important driver to reporting this information yes and of course Rodney King was cause theb um quite rightly but it led to the riots in Los Angeles now the interesting thing about
00:47:32 Angeles now the interesting thing about Winston silcott is what I I can remember paper selling one day and a road man came up drug dealing guy from the streets okay and he said to me why are you trying to get rid of Winston silcott do you know what he is he's a burden to
00:47:44 is he's a burden to us right those are his words not mine I remember that very clearly that members of the black community in that area had little feel for Winston silk
00:48:04 C so what I'm saying is this is how people jump on a bandwagon sometimes from other areas and utilize an individual when that Community itself is not happy with that individual and this is the problem of the left
00:48:17 offen but the consequence of your interest
00:48:25 in this protest is you are putting in a report m
00:48:27 report m about an entirely legitimate protest run by an entirely legitimate campaign group absolutely there's nothing wrong with
00:48:38 absolutely there's nothing wrong with putting a repor in the the the report is will be looked at circulated aspects taken from it which are of interest and nothing will happen to in fact I don't even think people are named on there but nothing will happen to the people who were there and as you can see
00:48:49 were there and as you can see already I'm looking at the mentions silcotts obviously got mentions militant tendency has got its own file the Revolutionary Communist party has its
00:49:01 Revolutionary Communist party has its own file the Socialist Workers Party has its own file those files will be duplicated in the security service and they'll have their own files there I mean it's just the way the state runs there was no disturbance at this demonstration doesn't need to be a
00:49:17 demonstration doesn't need to be a disturbance were you there um probably I can't remember what what I'm saying is that there's no need for it to be a disturbance the state is looking at these particular organizations and keeping a breast of the organizations it doesn't mean
00:49:29 the organizations it doesn't mean anything's going to happen to the organizations it just means that a watching brief is kept you this is what people tend not to understand the
00:49:40 people tend not to understand the problems you're having right now as we speak in in safeport right require people to look at things which are going on and to make decisions and to see whether it may cause a riot down the
00:49:52 whether it may cause a riot down the road it might not be today tomorrow or the day after but things do happen that's how it works that's how SEC intelligence in National Security works I'm not it's I've not made it up that's how it's run for 120
00:50:06 how it's run for 120 years and if the state didn't like the organization it would have got rid of
00:50:14 it less than one third of those present were from the black community why did you record that because it's about black people it's about the black community and obviously the black community are not feeling so interested in the issue
00:50:25 not feeling so interested in the issue that they're actually taking part in it and as I explained to you what the road man said to me the feel of people living in the area was that they did not like this guy he was a danger to
00:50:46 them were you asked specifically to report that kind of information I.E the proportion of black people or it's immaterial it's it's just it's that's just how you carry out reports this is
00:50:58 just how you carry out reports this is why I try to explain what the branch is about when you come in with two years you're taught how to compile special Bank report my question is a very specific one were you specifically asked to that would that's how reports were
00:51:10 to that would that's how reports were written if we could take that down now please could we go to tab 100 28 to2
00:51:32 uh this is an event Prof forer for an event on the 21st of October 1992 this one is perspective because you can see the date at the bottom 2nd of
00:51:45 can see the date at the bottom 2nd of October 1992 this is about a forthcoming demonstration a picket outside the home office M uh for the organization Winston silop defense campaign uh it also refers to the social this Workers Party 30
00:52:04 to the social this Workers Party 30 people are estimated as likely to attend disorder is stated to be unlikely and the mood recorded as vifer us mhm this event will culminate in the handing in of a petition to the home
00:52:15 handing in of a petition to the home office for the release of Winston silot so far the petition has few signatories and the campaign as a whole is not
00:52:29 and the campaign as a whole is not attracting much support the swp will trying to step up the wsdc before the event now one can see
00:52:41 wsdc before the event now one can see there might be some police interest in knowing that this picket was coming but on the other hand you are reporting on a petition by a Justice
00:52:54 petition by a Justice campaign was that really NE
00:53:02 necessary this seems to be a very wide area of this Justice campaign what I'm interested in is what's behind the Justice campaign and
00:53:18 what's behind the Justice campaign and as you can see from here it says the swp will trying not good English but we'll try to step up uh the Winston silot defense campaign so in other words entryism into that campaign make it bigger try and step it up so what I'm looking at is the infil of the swp a nons subversive organization into that
00:53:44 campaign understood but you're also reporting the petition has few signatures absolutely what policing value is there in recording the number of signatures uh that uh had been obtain to that's complete that's completeness you know I'm I'm painting a picture it's
00:53:56 know I'm I'm painting a picture it's it's complete when it goes to the desk they understand not much interest maybe we look at it maybe we don't look at it
00:54:07 we look at it maybe we don't look at it the police themselves regular police now the 98% of police who do regular police work they will get a feel as to okay the attendance is law 30 people might be ferous but we don't need to stop over
00:54:18 ferous but we don't need to stop over time for people to turn up we don't need to do this that or the other so it's all about the policing process as well as if you will the National security
00:54:32 process so you your understanding was it that there was a national security absolutely the wp's entry but in the Winston Sil into the Winston Sil campaign s swp attempting to enter that campaign and that was such that there
00:54:47 campaign and that was such that there would be an interest they needed to know that the petition had few signatures it's completeness why why why not why put half a report in if you know that it's got few signatories maybe we can elect
00:54:56 elect some investigative activity if we take that down please could we go to 28226 tab
00:55:19 102 this is another event Pro former this time dated Saturday the event is the 3 of
00:55:24 the 3 of October uh 1992 this is an next post facto report dated 6 of October um could we look first of all
00:55:37 October um could we look first of all well we can see it's Brixton Recreation Center the organization is set to be Panther
00:55:44 Panther UK the nature of the event is a public meeting as part of the Bobby seal UK tour numbers attended 2,100 about further 500 were refused entry due to capacity of the building
00:55:58 entry due to capacity of the building slight disorder caused by excess numbers Cooperative mood it had been advertised
00:56:11 Cooperative mood it had been advertised in advance by fly posting if we look at the um text the first paragraph shows that a video had been shown about Mr Seal's life and the Black Panther Movement uh and there were various speakers claraa Buckley of the Orville Blackwood Community campaign Nelly
00:56:23 Blackwood Community campaign Nelly Fergus of the Ivan Fergus campaign and an ic4 male named def freus who is the Secretary of Panther UK and an I3 ic3
00:56:34 Secretary of Panther UK and an I3 ic3 male with a leading role in the panther hierarchy who acted as chairperson second paragraph both Mrs Blackwood and Mrs Fergus made
00:56:45 Blackwood and Mrs Fergus made impassioned pleas for justice prior to Bobby seal holding the more or less undivided attention of the audience for 50 minutes he spoke of the reason for forming the Black Panther Party for
00:56:57 forming the Black Panther Party for self-defense back in the mid-60s of its criminalization by the capitalist media and in particular of its infiltration and destruction by the FBI he made it
00:57:15 and destruction by the FBI he made it clear that the battle he had fought then bore little resemblance to that being fought in the USA Today the current
00:57:28 fought in the USA Today the current right of activist demonstrate peacefully had been won for the present Generation by the BP P amongst others back in the 60s law
00:57:30 60s law books rather than guns must now be their chosen weapon so
00:57:40 weapon so plainly
00:57:42 plainly urging peaceful protest absolutely I thought Bobby SE was fantastic if we go over the
00:57:51 over the page um and we go to the penultimate paragraph finally various other campaign representatives were given the
00:58:03 representatives were given the opportunity to air their causes including George silcott who asked people to sign the petition on behalf of
00:58:14 people to sign the petition on behalf of his brother which was to be handed in to the home office during the forthcoming picket of that establishment on the 21st of October whilst the event appears to
00:58:32 of October whilst the event appears to have been a great success for pan the UK there remains some doubt as to whether Panther UK is actually independent of militant tendency as was believed previously since it is suggested now that the split between them may have been engineered to enable Mt to
00:58:46 been engineered to enable Mt to manipulate Panther support within the black
00:58:48 black community on the face of it do we therefore have Mr Morris a report about a large event
00:59:00 a large event at which a peaceful message was being broadcast and uh at which you are reporting Mr Sil cot's efforts to enlist signatures to his petition on the face
00:59:11 signatures to his petition on the face of it you have a potentially difficult situation within the community where a hero of the community especially the more militant parts of the community
00:59:22 more militant parts of the community including myself a hero of mine Bobby seal comes to that community and says basically at the time in the 60s I was
00:59:33 basically at the time in the 60s I was doing the right thing I'm in the Black Panther Party for self-defense making that party capable of Defending itself against the US state and seeking equal rights in the United States fantastic
00:59:46 rights in the United States fantastic then he goes on and says that battle has been won we can do it in another way brilliant the bottom of that explains then that's where Bobby seal is so therefore we never Now understand that
00:59:59 therefore we never Now understand that Bobby Seal's message isn't the message what some others including the swp wished for him to provide okay he's provided his message that message I spoke to Bobby seal that message has
01:00:12 spoke to Bobby seal that message has been provided right great so now we go on and I actually State then thereafter that um you know about the silcot aspect which was of interest within Tottenham and around that area so that's not a problem there and I say
01:00:29 that's not a problem there and I say then the Crux of this matter is sorry it's gone off my screen okay what is what is Mt militant tendency of utmost interest to the security service because it's actual entryism into the labor
01:00:43 it's actual entryism into the labor party what is that doing and is this an entri organization part of the uh militant tendency and is it utilizing
01:00:56 militant tendency and is it utilizing the black community to um uh further the causes of the militant tendency and I actually write down what my thoughts are and what I think about that and where I've got that information from is this a meeting which could have been attended
01:01:13 meeting which could have been attended by a special Branch officer who was not from the desk on yes from a desk difficult why I think because he may have shown out that's that simple he may have shown out but but it might well have been they
01:01:28 out but but it might well have been they may well have been am I going to go into the red here if I say it let me put it this way then if a special Branch officer had attended this meeting in the usual special Branch
01:01:41 usual special Branch way you said that there's a risk they may have shown shown potentially would that have been a problem showing out
01:01:54 problem showing out yeah he might not have got in he might have got into the meeting but but the but what you need to understand is that's not the point the point is I'm there I'm around the area I've obviously been invited to the meeting I'm in the meeting so I just report it there may well have been another special Branch
01:02:11 well have been another special Branch officer there from the desk who knows I don't if a special Branch officer had turned up at the door and being recognized as such do you think that he or she would have been allowed into this meeting I doubt
01:02:25 meeting I doubt it but maybe there was a special Branch officer there maybe there was an agent of special Branch there or Security Service there I don't know I'm just reporting it as I was there what got you into this meeting the fact that I'm known in the
01:02:36 known in the area did the fact that you are black help to get into that possibly but the
01:02:50 help to get into that possibly but the fact that I'm known as an activ well not probably probably but the fact that I'm known as an activist by this stage in the area obviously got me into the meeting and I knew some of the people can we take that down please and can we now move to the Roland Adams
01:03:05 can we now move to the Roland Adams Family campaign starting with document 28229 which is at tab C6
01:03:37 the uh Roland Adams Family campaign arose from the racist murder of Roland Adams didn't absolutely and that was a truly horrific crime
01:03:46 crime absolutely the Roland Adams Family campaign was not subversive was
01:03:59 it again I stress we're not looking at the Roland Adams Family campaign indeed I think there is a um world in action report at the time whereby the uh his uncle says
01:04:13 the time whereby the uh his uncle says that there's too many people coming into the campaign who have got their own agendas he actually says that so so the point I'm making is is I'm looking at those people entering the campaign with their own agendas Oran organizations
01:04:26 their own agendas Oran organizations entering the campaign with their own agendas understood I'm not looking at the campaign understood but the answer to my question is they're not subverse of well no I accept that not the C the
01:04:39 of well no I accept that not the C the campaign if it's run by the part by the by the family Etc is not but we're looking at who's trying to enter the campaign and the campaign itself the family are not in any way encouraging
01:04:51 family are not in any way encouraging public disorder absolutely not in fact opposite anti to it now if we look at the the body the text it says privacy is an active member of the nuum monitoring project and would appear to be third in pecking order to
01:05:07 appear to be third in pecking order to Umesh desire and privacy privacy chaired the recent Al Sharpton meeting at Friends Meeting House on behalf of the Roland Adams Family campaign privacy
01:05:24 Roland Adams Family campaign privacy strongly believes in the physical Street campaign against the fascists and has proved this on numerous occasions including when arrested in November 1987 whilst combating the BNP privacy's
01:05:37 whilst combating the BNP privacy's commitment to anti-fascist activity is beyond reproach exactly what I was saying so your that is precisely your what I was saying the new monitoring monitoring project campaigned Against
01:05:52 project campaigned Against Racism and it monitored local police didn't it um I'm not so sure about police moning but I guess it did but I'm not so sure about that what was your understanding from
01:06:05 that what was your understanding from your experience of dealing with I'm I'm not remembering it 100% but but obviously at the time I'm writing saying um and I'm just looking at what I'm writing and um from what I'm writing
01:06:16 writing and um from what I'm writing here my interest in that is the street
01:06:29 here my interest in that is the street activity which some not all I'm guessing of the uh are suggesting is the Right Way Forward which you know is potentially a understandable perspective where you at the meeting at this one I'm guessing I was
01:06:39 I was but this is what I said in my recollection I'm looking at the reports and I'm thinking I'm I must be at the
01:06:48 meeting did the speak did the the chair say anything to the audience
01:06:59 chair say anything to the audience to incite I can't recall physical action I can't recall so I can't say no and I can't say yes do you agree that the new monitoring project was not a subversive organization um no it had it its
01:07:13 organization um no it had it its intentions were not to overthrow undermine the state and that it was entitled to monitor local police activity and anybody is protest against
01:07:24 activity and anybody is protest against it if it's absolutely nothing wrong with that
01:07:26 that was it in your experience involved in public disorder um it may well have been can you remember anything specific on I can't remember specific but it may well have been from what I write here seems to be the
01:07:40 to be the case because looking at this report what I have to ask you is why report on a member of an anti-racist group chairing a meeting on behalf of the family of a boy who was murdered by racist because
01:07:54 boy who was murdered by racist because of the people who want to get into the campaign I think I've explained that before the people who wish to get inside of the campaign now when you are an activist as I was you got to all sorts
01:08:06 activist as I was you got to all sorts of meetings because that's what you do as an
01:08:11 activist and if I thought that the meetings I went to that there was something worth reporting on I did if I was at meetings that I thought there was nothing worth reporting on I didn't that's just what happened and this one clearly there was something because I can see and I obviously knew the
01:08:25 can see and I obviously knew the individual or knew of the individual uh CU I don't know who he is because you put him privacy there so I don't know who it is um so I obviously thought yeah I know this fell and this is the way a
01:08:36 I know this fell and this is the way a woman could be a woman this is this is the way it's going with this I'm guessing it's a guy from what it says um
01:08:48 guessing it's a guy from what it says um so that's it and so this probably is one that's what sits better with the police than it does with the security service under our remit of upholding the Queen's peace but we can see from the left left hand side of the document if we zoom
01:09:03 out in fact you can see at the top of the page there's a okay so it's gone to as yeah okay pH so they add an interest as well could we take that down please could we go to tab c28 please sir 28150
01:09:29 uh this is a report dated the 31st of January
01:09:31 January 1992 um it reads paragraph two in an attempt to bring itself to the Forefront in the fight against racism and fascism the relaunched anti-nazi league has
01:09:44 the relaunched anti-nazi league has organized a mass leafleting campaign in the tower hamlets area on Sunday the 2nd of February 1992 supporters are being asked to meet at 12:30 that day at alab
01:09:56 asked to meet at 12:30 that day at alab Ali Park White Chapel for a short rally prior to the leafleting likewise ANL is putting its weight behind the Roland Adams Family campaign demonstration due
01:10:12 Adams Family campaign demonstration due to be held in tsme on Saturday the 22nd of February 1992 so this presumably arises from the reporting we saw yesterday ANL just reformed they're going straight into Tower hamlets because that's a hot bed
01:10:30 Tower hamlets because that's a hot bed of the BN P Resurgence and they're going straight to support the Roland Adams Family campaign because it wants to protest against the racist murder of Roland
01:10:38 Roland Adams and what
01:10:47 I I'm thinking because as I said my memories what I seemingly recollect is that I knew a couple of people in the AR
01:10:58 people in the AR and as you know obviously I know people in the in the new monting project you put privacy on it I don't know if it's the guy who around you Etc um and and
01:11:12 the guy who around you Etc um and and they were adamant that they did not want the swp in Roland Adams campaign sorry can we be clear who didn't want the ARA new monitoring project etc etc so the left splits they fight like
01:11:27 etc so the left splits they fight like cat in a bag so they split amongst what they trying to do and a lot of people don't want the S swp inside their organizations or organizations that they're taking they want the numbers of
01:11:40 they're taking they want the numbers of the swp on demonstrations but they don't want them inside the campaigns did you have any personal dealings with any member of Roland Adams's family no are
01:11:56 member of Roland Adams's family no are you able therefore to help the inquiry as to what the view of the family was just from the things I've seen on television like that world in action report Etc nothing from first other than the people I knew in those campaigns in
01:12:09 the people I knew in those campaigns in those organizations who were saying they didn't want the S swp inside they want our support for demonstrations they don't want us running the
01:12:22 running the campaign can we now uh look at um 282 281 sorry 28250 tab c35
01:12:42 so um this is a report dated the 7th of February 1992 and if we could have a look at paragraph two in particular
01:12:58 please the following two activities have been announced by the Socialist Workers Party and anti-nazi League s swp NL on the 16th of February a London wide anti-nazi League leafletting day has been called along the format of the tower hamlets leafletting activity which took place on the 2nd of February this
01:13:13 took place on the 2nd of February this will involve leafleting targets targeted Estates throughout all of London's buroughs to this end local branches will seek sponsorship and support from local bodies during the coming weeks on the
01:13:24 bodies during the coming weeks on the 22nd of February the ANL intends to give Mass support to the demonstration called by the Roland Adams Family campaign rafc to close the British national party BNP
01:13:40 to close the British national party BNP Welling headquarters this event will be a London wide mobilization with s swp members from outside the capital also being encouraged to attend especially if they are accompanying ANL non swp
01:13:55 they are accompanying ANL non swp members activists are also being urge to fly poost as many bills as possible advertising the event in order to build a real awareness of the action the
01:14:09 a real awareness of the action the demonstration will assemble at 12: noon at St Nicholas church plumsted High Street
01:14:19 se8 so this is um an important demonstration isn't it planning and in fact I think it we'll find out did go past the Bookshop right okay at Welling uh and it's an swp London call out plus National
01:14:36 encouragement can we go to uh 28278 tab
01:15:03 39 um this is an event performer uh for uh the march on the 22nd of February 1982 it's exposed facto dated the 26 records the fact um of the march to the British national party headquarters in Welling followed by a
01:15:23 headquarters in Welling followed by a rally records the organizations involved the AR the ANL the swp and the nmp in addition to the Roland Adams Family campaign says that it was widely advertised through the media by radio and
01:15:31 and television so presumably even if you hadn't reported the police would have known very well that it was coming possibly y if we look
01:15:43 possibly y if we look um first of all at paragraph
01:15:54 one the AR who organized the march in conjunction with the rafc had made it known in an open letter to the swp that should any violence occur it would be construed as ANL
01:16:07 construed as ANL orchestrated the swp ANL leadership therefore had instructed their comrades whilst on route to The Venue that the demonstration should not be allowed to
01:16:18 demonstration should not be allowed to degenerate into a physical conflict as this would only detract from the issues involved and Road future ANL support were you on this March I would
01:16:31 support were you on this March I would have been yeah and so would you have got this information from the instruction to
01:16:43 this information from the instruction to comrades or did you know about it before that as an East London ANL organizer I would have known about it before that I would have known about the fact that it was to be passed out
01:17:03 was to be passed out not as a full National call out but as a call out as far as we could and that we were trying to get involved with it um to the largest capacity possible did you see the open letter I cannot remember now whether I did or
01:17:18 didn't are you able to assist the inquiry as to why it might be that the AR sought fit to put this warning shot
01:17:30 AR sought fit to put this warning shot across the swp's bows as I think I said yesterday the IRA was pretty much a straightforward organization um trying to deal with anti-racism in our country laudable
01:17:41 laudable perspective unfortunately for it um a lot of entryism was attempted into that organization but it knew that the swp
01:17:58 organization but it knew that the swp would try and hijack the perspective now I'm not saying that the swp on this particular demonstration went out to actually cause rius
01:18:08 rius Behavior what I am saying is with s
01:18:11 is with s swp often times came individuals that would involve themselves in such
01:18:26 themselves in such activity because we pressed out far and wide to get as many people as we could to demonstrations and if there were people within that particularly ANL who felt that the way to deal with these
01:18:38 felt that the way to deal with these issues was to be physical then it was difficult for us to control so that's where the problem comes from plus also I'm I'm guessing this now I don't know uh and there
01:18:51 this now I don't know uh and there obious better place maybe I'm guessing that what the AR is saying is um with this letter is it could use it
01:19:02 um with this letter is it could use it to you know hit the S swp over the head if something did go wrong are you able to help us one way or the other whether the AR was
01:19:15 AR was concerned that the s swp or the ANL might Stoke trouble I'm pretty much 100% sure that's the case because I said to you I watch
01:19:27 the case because I said to you I watch that world in action program and others at the time and they state that openly that they s swp ANL is bad in their mind which is why if you remember at Welling they didn't go to the Welling demonstration they had their own
01:19:38 demonstration they had their own demonstration away from the building because they said that was definitely going to cause physical violence and they knew it so we'll have our demonstration in central London there will be no violence and there
01:19:49 will be no violence and there wasn't your estimate of the turnout on this March was 2 people I may have been wrong well presumably you gave your best
01:20:02 wrong well presumably you gave your best estimate yeah that's all I could give if we look at paragraphs 2 and three in the event the march in the event the March the largest section of which was made up of ANL swp supporters was in the main peaceful and the
01:20:17 was in the main peaceful and the demonstrators remained in good spirits throughout nor were there any obvious over clashes between the ANL and the AR even though the latter who were in firm
01:20:30 even though the latter who were in firm control of the organization had banished the ANL swp contingent to the rear of the march from where it was able to take no part in the eventual wling ceremony so the picture painted is that the ANL
01:20:47 so the picture painted is that the ANL swp fell into line and respected the AR on this occasion on this particular occasion yes paragraph three the only Discord noted was in fact between the leaders of the S swp ANL faction I.E
01:21:01 leaders of the S swp ANL faction I.E Julie Waton and Chris bambury they were unable to agree on whether the ANL should make a symbolic gesture outside the Bookshop it had been decided that their section would halt outside the
01:21:14 their section would halt outside the Bookshop to indulge in several minutes chanting but this was subsequently overruled by Waton on the grounds that it might be difficult to
01:21:27 it might be difficult to control first first of all how did you come to know about the difference of opinion between Waton and I was probably there how close were you to Waterson and bambury Waterson I knew well bambury I
01:21:43 bambury Waterson I knew well bambury I knew well and on this occasion can you recall were you privy to the conversation between them or were you I think I may well have been I I again I've written it so I'm guessing I was privy to it because otherwise I would
01:21:56 privy to it because otherwise I would know and presumably uh you marched past the Bookshop itself uh whatever the root
01:22:07 the Bookshop itself uh whatever the root of the March was we did I can't remember the March and the route but so whatever the root of the March was we did it I don't think we stopped it I think Julie as I said she's a very powerful woman got her way and we probably just went past like everybody else did was that
01:22:18 past like everybody else did was that the first time you saw the Bookshop at Welling or had you seen it before that for me probably would have been the first time time could we have up on the screen please
01:22:54 37102 this is a photograph that was exhibited to Dr German's uh witness statement
01:22:59 statement which she says uh shows the Bookshop at Welling is that the Bookshop at Welling I guess so my recollection isn't very good at it I I guess it is I've see no reason why it's not um heavily
01:23:12 no reason why it's not um heavily fortified wasn't it yeah I think if I'm correct that that was I don't think the upper floors
01:23:24 upper floors were did it have a door with a letter box
01:23:26 from what I can see here
01:23:36 no uh can we move take that down please and can we now move to the Steven Lawrence
01:23:41 Lawrence campaign Steven was murdered on the 22nd of April
01:23:54 1993 after that event within the SDS what discussion can you recall about about the fact of Steven's
01:24:10 murder I don't think there was any in the initial stages I I I don't difficult to say um you're asking now as the murder happened I don't think
01:24:33 obviously is it became a c celeb that's a different thing but back in the beginning there's murders all over London and I don't think in the initial first stage that that you
01:24:48 first stage that that you know in the initial first stage it probably would have been a straightforward police matter can you recall any discussions about the criminal investigation into Steven's murder
01:25:00 Steven's murder no even as it began to become a much publicized issue once it became a much publicized issue um it would then have
01:25:13 publicized issue um it would then have already became an become an issue within the activist circles and then of course we were talking about it can you recall it being discussed within the
01:25:27 SDS what what what do you mean this the was can you recall any discussion about the criminal investigation I've tried to explain that when I talk about the criminal investigation I'm talking about the about the issue that we would have been
01:25:41 about the issue that we would have been interested in is the fact that it became a cause celeb and was drawing everybody
01:25:52 a cause celeb and was drawing everybody into that cause that's it not about the criminal investigation can you recall any discussion within the SDS about Steven's family
01:26:04 no can you recall any discussion sorry rephrase no other than as it related to people trying to get into the
01:26:10 campaign that's my very next question yeah what
01:26:12 yeah what conversation can you recall about the people who were surrounding the Lawrence Family the first bit of that I call was
01:26:31 that you're asking me to remember things I think it is the
01:26:38 yre militant tendency so so we had person in
01:26:39 person in militant and I think that he was the
01:26:52 militant and I think that he was the first person who mentioned it that they were that they were trying to create a campaign and thereafter then we s swp ANL got
01:26:56 ANL got involved uh is the colleague you referring to Peter Francis correct and
01:27:08 referring to Peter Francis correct and what did Peter Francis say about the Y's involvement I I can't remember exactly what St Lawrence it was that they were trying they obviously trying to get in and run the campaign and they I think he was saying they were trying to get in within the AR
01:27:20 they were trying to get in within the AR something like that to run that campaign and would you have needed to speak about it or would the automatic assumption have been and therefore of course he was seeking to obtain an intelligence about
01:27:35 seeking to obtain an intelligence about that we'd just been in that orbit so we would have obtained intelligence at it because we were in the orbit of that so Peter would have been doing his bits the guys in South London I think we had somebody in South London would have been
01:27:48 somebody in South London would have been doing their bits on the SW side and when we got involved from the East London side ANL Etc I'd have been putting my bits in it's is just how it comes about did he say anything to you about the intelligence that he was
01:28:02 intelligence that he was obtaining no other than what he was saying openly within the meeting and what was that I can't remember did he say anything about what he had been asked to obtain no I mean
01:28:13 he had been asked to obtain no I mean generally what happened is if you were asked to do something specific okay to explain the the two meetings if you could make them and we didn't always make them to explain the two meetings
01:28:28 make them to explain the two meetings what would happen is we'd all sit around all the different groups are involved men and women it wasn't just male officers who were in there were female offices as well who were um in various organizations and what would happen is
01:28:43 organizations and what would happen is is that um we'd all sit around I think it's about 12 of us um that's the the number of SDS at any one time 10 12 whatever and you would go through your area animals globalization left wing
01:28:54 area animals globalization left wing rightwing blah blah blah whatever it was and um so that would be everybody open and then they'd call the they the office management would call people in as to
01:29:08 management would call people in as to specifics if there were any specifics and if that was the case Peter would have been called in for specifics did he say anything to you
01:29:20 specifics did he say anything to you no did he show any concern at the time no about what he was doing let me rephrase it
01:29:32 right in the beginning and this is probably quite important of Peter's being brought into the SDS being selected from the mainstream special Branch aspect into SDS he was going into the right
01:29:51 SDS he was going into the right wing and he told me that his mindset was gathered for the right wing then all of a sudden for whatever reason I don't know why they changed him to the the left wing right his mindset wasn't set for the left wing and he said he could
01:30:08 for the left wing and he said he could do that standing on his head anyway and he spoke to me because I was a pretty much more long-term guy and asked me what's the sort of background and I remember saying Peter if you go in without that attitude they will soon find out and and you'll come a Cropper right so or you will fall for them as we all do and you will take on
01:30:22 them as we all do and you will take on their Persona 100% either way it's bad so you need to orientate your mind so he
01:30:36 so you need to orientate your mind so he went in thinking that way next minute he was a full-blown 100% activist we all were at least 99% but this guy was 100% And
01:30:39 100% And um he
01:30:41 um he struggled
01:30:44 struggled with as we all did with with with not being who we said we were in terms of our Ulta
01:30:50 our Ulta ego um and he came very very close
01:31:01 um so in this he was always angry if I can put it that way and I think that that colored his perspectives often he worked hard don't get me wrong but but he he
01:31:19 was all of us are affected I'm not going to pretend that we weren't but but he he I could see in him he had had problems
01:31:28 did he express any concerns to you he expressed no concerns about what he was doing his concerns were about his hatred for the
01:31:41 police did he say anything to you to the effect that he'd been asked to gather intelligence with which to smear the Lawrence Family I saw the I heard this subsequently and I thought that was no disrespect to Peter I thought
01:31:54 disrespect to Peter I thought nonsense that's not what that's not what we're about we're about Gathering intelligence not smearing individuals that's a security service job let them do that we're bothered about Gathering intelligence that's what we were
01:32:10 intelligence that's what we were doing just to be clear sorry I shouldn't say that just to be clear you are are you are I are you that last bit I'm not saying that are you or are you not in a position to
01:32:21 are you or are you not in a position to say whether or not the security service was seeking to SM
02:19:49 e e
02:20:39 Mr bar before you resume um may I say to those behind that there is a purpose in these orders um I know that you have complied with them up to now uh they are serious orders they do have a
02:20:52 serious orders they do have a potentially serious consequence if they're
02:20:52 they're breached
02:21:01 um please I I ask of you as well as demand of you um comply with what uh the order requires you to do uh a transcript in
02:21:19 requires you to do uh a transcript in due course will be published which will contain part of that which was said between the hours of 1116 and 11:22 but only part of it Mr B thank you sir uh could we have up please thank you very much sub
02:21:33 up please thank you very much sub paragraph H n78 provided quite a lot of reporting about the Lawrence campaign that reporting might well have contained personal information if n78 felt it might be of relevance to any part of special Branch n78 accepted that the
02:21:46 special Branch n78 accepted that the consequence was that there might have been intelligence reported back to to the office by n78 or another undercover officer that was capable of being used
02:22:01 officer that was capable of being used to undermine a campaign however n78 had never been made aware of anyone within SDS seeking intelligence for the purpose of it being used to undermine any justice campaign including the Lawrence Family campaign during
02:22:22 Family campaign during n78 time there um is it right that you provided did quite a lot of reporting about the Lawrence
02:22:31 campaign I reported quite a lot of intelligence about what we s swp strl
02:22:42 intelligence about what we s swp strl were attempting to do in terms of really the
02:22:49 the demonstration relating to Alliance campaign not the campaign really excuse me
02:22:55 when you say the demonstration relating to the Lawrence campaign can you confirm which demonstration primarily Welling um but but there would have been other uh demonstrations um
02:23:10 demonstrations um which focused on the name Lawrence
02:23:12 Lawrence but in reality had little to do with it could we take that down now please could we have up uh 33 239 which is at tab
02:23:53 145 thank you this is a report dated the 29th of June 199 3 about the anti-nazi league
02:23:54 league um and
02:24:01 um and it's if well perhaps I'll read the first paragraph anti-nazi League ANL leader rol Patel with the backing of the Central Committee of the Socialist Workers Party s swp seems to be steering the ANL into closer cooperation with
02:24:16 the ANL into closer cooperation with other anti-racist groups the ANL will participate in a United anti-racist demonstration the national Unity demonstration in beex on the 16th of October to force the closure of the British national party Bookshop in Welling and Patel has sent a letter to
02:24:28 Welling and Patel has sent a letter to all the major anti-racist anti-fascist groups soliciting support and money for
02:24:40 groups soliciting support and money for the event and if we could go to page two please attached to that report is a communication from the anti-nazi league
02:24:51 communication from the anti-nazi league steering committee about um the campaign to close the BMP Bookshop for present purposes what I'm interested in is the second paragraph where it says the anti-nazi league is
02:25:03 anti-nazi league is supporting together with other anti-racist and anti-fascist organizations a call for large demonstration in Beckley to close down the Nazi BMP headquarters the demonstration will be led by victims of
02:25:19 demonstration will be led by victims of racist violence and the family campaigns so far apart from the ANL the following organizations and campaigns have agreed to be part of the unity demonstration Roland Adams Family campaign Rohit
02:25:30 Roland Adams Family campaign Rohit dugall family campaign Indian workers Association GB Y and search light the Lawrence Family are currently in Jamaica
02:25:44 Lawrence Family are currently in Jamaica where Steven is been buried they will be contacted as soon as they return so you see there clear reference
02:25:56 return so you see there clear reference to the lawren family in that leaflet MH can you just explain to us so that we are clear did you submit this leaflet as part of the overall picture or did the
02:26:10 part of the overall picture or did the fact it mention the Lawrence Family in particular make a difference made no difference whatsoever if we could have now please uh
02:26:18 33349 uh which is at divider
02:26:25 234 excuse
02:26:38 me this is a meeting of the National Assembly Against Racism the report is dated the 16th of February 1995 to set the scene I'll read the first paragraph on Saturday the 4th of
02:26:50 first paragraph on Saturday the 4th of February 1995 the Nationalist assembly Against Racism Nar held its first meeting at York Hall in Bethel green the
02:27:03 meeting at York Hall in Bethel green the principal organizer was Kumar mid former chair of the anti-racist alliance and current chair of the tower hamlets anti-racist committee the event was supported by a number of other organizations including the Indian
02:27:23 organizations including the Indian workers Association the antio league the newer monitoring project the Society of black lawyers and the national black caucus in addition to these were a number of church groups the Asian
02:27:34 number of church groups the Asian Chamber of Commerce various trade unions and the labor party if we could zoom back to the full page do you recall attending this event I probably did um and if we go to page four
02:27:54 please there is a leaflet uh which was submitted with this report uh from the National Assembly Against Racism and if we look um at under the
02:28:09 Racism and if we look um at under the paragraph which starts chair Kumar merid at the list of speakers M uh you'll see a number of speakers listed there including some members of parliament a me a member of the European Parliament
02:28:24 me a member of the European Parliament and also uh running from the penultimate line onto the ultimate line Neville Lawrence from the Steven Lawrence campaign again was this leaflet submitted um as part of the overall picture of what was going on or did the
02:28:35 picture of what was going on or did the fact that Neville Lawrence was speaking make a difference no never Lawrence speaking didn't make any difference whatsoever overall picture um can we
02:28:46 whatsoever overall picture um can we take that down now um I've taken you to two of the three um mentions as we've
02:28:59 two of the three um mentions as we've got of um Dr Lawrence in the papers uh are there any of your reports on the lawen family campaign that you can recall which are missing from the bundle I can't
02:29:10 recall could we move now to the Brian Douglas
02:29:12 Douglas campaign uh could we have up 02451 156 please it's tab 243
02:29:21 [Music]
02:29:43 um this is a document which is dated the sixth of June 1995 paragraphs 1 and two please despite having had nothing to do with the justice for Brian Douglas campaign
02:29:57 the justice for Brian Douglas campaign to date the Socialist Workers Party has now decided on a response to the issue and in particular on its reaction to the plan demonstration to take place on the 10th of June the swp is predicting that
02:30:14 10th of June the swp is predicting that about 2,000 demonstrators will take part in Saturday's March and that the vast majority of these will be black consequently the swp is trying to mobilize as many black comrades as possible to attend the demonstration the swp contingent will meet at Clapham
02:30:29 swp contingent will meet at Clapham common Tube Station at 12: noon the object of the swp is as always to recruit new members it has been noted that the swp is engaging in the Brian
02:30:41 that the swp is engaging in the Brian Douglas campaign in its own right rather than under the aaces of the anti-nazi league in the comment the swp decision to take part in this demonstration is an
02:30:56 to take part in this demonstration is an indication of the anticipated size of it the deploying of black comrades only is a reflection of thep belief that white political activists will not be welcome militant labor is also sending black
02:31:09 militant labor is also sending black members only most probably in the guise of Panther UK uh did you attend June 1995 not sure
02:31:25 attend June 1995 not sure this is pretty much near the end I kind of declared myself as a black nationalist by then
02:31:37 um that's difficult potentially don't know and again could you explain why this was something that you felt needed to be reported it just shows you the tactics of of uh the S swp um in terms
02:31:50 tactics of of uh the S swp um in terms of how it utilizes black issues for its own right and and clearly militant doing the
02:32:02 the same could we have now 0245
02:32:04 0245 170 tab
02:32:17 244 uh ninth of June
02:32:27 1995 uh on Wednesday the 7th of June a meeting was held at the Hal Cav Center in STO Newington concerning the justice for Brian Douglas campaign the meeting was chaired by Mark meta and
02:32:39 meeting was chaired by Mark meta and addressed by three speakers privacy a member of the newm monitoring project speaking on behalf of the Cora saiza campaign privacy said name unknown a
02:32:53 campaign privacy said name unknown a Kurdish woman speaking on behalf of the car ymas campaign and Donald Douglas brother of the late Brian Douglas some 60 people were present half of them black each speaker concentrated on the
02:33:08 black each speaker concentrated on the theme of increased police harassment and violence and on the need to continue campaigns for justice after they had fallen out of immediate public
02:33:25 fallen out of immediate public attention the political flavor of speech and questions did not go down well with the Douglas family or their supporters matters came to a head when an unidentified black man stood up and demanded to know just who was responsible for the intended demonstration when told that the
02:33:40 demonstration when told that the organizers were mainly political groups and individuals he ranted that black people must never trust any whites some blacks present particularly those representing the Nation of Islam nodded their approval of his opinion Donald
02:33:53 their approval of his opinion Donald Douglas was hard pressed to appease the black protester and it was clear that he is getting out of his depth with the whole
02:34:05 whole business while no new strategies emerged from this meeting the mood of the radical black element does not appear to have sharpened the issue now is not just anti- police but it has become an
02:34:16 anti- police but it has become an anti-white issue there was much talk of how nervous police will be on the day if the anti-white sentiment prevails it is
02:34:29 the anti-white sentiment prevails it is unlikely that the wishes of the Douglas family and the demonstration organizes to see a peaceful protest will be fulfilled Donald Douglas is clearly struggling to hold his own against
02:34:41 struggling to hold his own against people like privacy the self-appointed chief steward for the March and other members of the militant black community were you at that meeting it sounds as though I was can you recall it I cannot recall it uh I get the
02:34:54 I cannot recall it uh I get the impression uh that this is a meeting at we at which the presence of some of the political groups um was uh not entirely welcome is that fair correct uh if from
02:35:08 welcome is that fair correct uh if from what I'm writing here sorry I don't want to say yes correct as in but from what I from what I'm seeing here which is would be a recollection of what I wrote
02:35:21 be a recollection of what I wrote yes if it had been known at the time in that meeting uh that you were an undercover police officer how well do you think that would have gone down let's say it not very
02:35:35 well
02:35:44 um that is because you were spying on uh yeah they would have seen me as a as as as a as a traitor um and um had another meeting which I went to which I believed I stopped a riot happening at had I have
02:35:56 I stopped a riot happening at had I have been found out on that day um they would have probably beat me well probably killed me we'll come to that meeting um later on Mr Morris um I'm asking about
02:36:10 later on Mr Morris um I'm asking about this meeting at the moment yeah looking at the people present then um the organizations present I should say
02:36:22 organizations present I should say um I'd be lucky to get out do you think there would have been outrage that you were spying on the Brian Douglas campaign it's not the Brian Douglas campaign it would have been that I would have been there in the first
02:36:33 place could you explain the difference yeah I mean it's basically all of these organizations have their own agenda and they know
02:36:42 they know that
02:36:44 that um and of course the big argument is from the one guy who stands up and says what he says is that this is a problem it's a problem that these people are utilizing us to put forward their own
02:36:56 utilizing us to put forward their own issues so the campaign is of less import than what's happening and as you can see and I can tell you for for a beginning that the um Nation of Islam um had no
02:37:13 that the um Nation of Islam um had no truck with white organizations pushing forward black
02:37:21 issues was this a meeting at which it was easier you to gain access as a black man of
02:37:23 man of course but of course if I was Turkish I probably would have been able to get in as well etc etc
02:37:31 etc uh just to clear up uh would you have feared violence from the Brian Douglas campaign or would you have
02:37:44 Douglas campaign or would you have feared the no from from the actual Brian Douglas individuals probably not so your concerns in a physical direction would have been from other
02:37:55 direction would have been from other quarters from other quarters yeah but in terms of whether the a reaction on behalf of the Brian Douglas campaign they would not have been POS they would not have welcomed not because
02:38:06 they would not have welcomed not because they wouldn't understand why I was doing it see this is this is this is the problem because they'd listen to the propaganda it's what I call the M of Ages you listen to the propaganda and you don't think through why is this being
02:38:19 being done uh could we take that down now uh and could we move to uh Joy Gardner there's a series of reports that we've retrieved uh which date from
02:38:34 retrieved uh which date from 1995 and which follow the acquittal of the police officers who are tried arising from Joy Gardner's death can we start please with 2451
02:38:43 2451 97 it's tab 245
02:39:05 paragraph one of this report dated the 20th of June 1995 following the acquittal of the three police officers charged with the
02:39:18 three police officers charged with the manslaughter of Joy Gardner the Jamaican illegal immigrant Socialist Workers Party member ERS Gary McFarlan and privacy North London organizer attended a meeting with representatives of Gardner's family also present were
02:39:33 Gardner's family also present were Bernie Grant Linda Bellos and others The Joy Gardner Campaign which had been formed after Gardner's death and which had been run largely by McFarlan from
02:39:44 had been run largely by McFarlan from Grant's constituency office has become inactive and the issue has now been taken up by a black self-help group named known as Pace the meaning of This Acronym is not clear at this stage Pace
02:40:00 Acronym is not clear at this stage Pace has few members and fewer resources but it has kept the campaign going by holding small meetings and by accompanying Gardener's mother Mna Simpson to court
02:40:14 Simpson to court hearings can you recall being at that meeting probably if we go now to paragraph uh two
02:40:26 during the meeting McFarland once again tried to seize the Reigns of the joy Garder campaign and Lead it down a militant path ideally culminating in public disorder although Bernie Grant made an inflammatory speech neither he
02:40:39 made an inflammatory speech neither he nor Mrs Simpson supported the swp line or the party's call for an early demonstration which could tap into the anger of the black community Mrs Simpson said that public disorder would be
02:40:52 said that public disorder would be counterproductive and would be damaging to the memory of her daughter Bernie Grant agreed stating that the perceived threat of violence is more powerful than the violence itself the Gathering did
02:41:03 the violence itself the Gathering did however agree to call a public meeting to be held at Harring a Civic Center on the
02:41:10 the 21st of
02:41:14 21st of June so Mrs Simpson is here essentially
02:41:28 June so Mrs Simpson is here essentially calling for calm MH and concerned about the memory of her daughter mhm absolutely again had it been known that you were an undercover police officer how well would that have gone down it would not have gone down
02:41:39 gone down well if we go to paragraph three
02:41:49 please in pursuance of the swp's desire to create the environment in which disorder can grow the party's Central Committee directed comrades in Black areas to whole street meetings on the 17th of June and if sufficient numbers
02:42:08 17th of June and if sufficient numbers of people were present to march on local police stations Party leaders hope that black us could be persuaded to join in causing police to overreact and to provide the spark to ignite the Powder Keg if this fail then at least the swp
02:42:19 Keg if this fail then at least the swp would have an opportunity to sell its p papers and recruit on the basis of the safe anti- Police anti-state Issue the response all around was poor about 20
02:42:37 response all around was poor about 20 people marched from dolon Cross to stoke Newton Police Station selling 50 papers on Route while 25 comrades gathered at woodgreen shopping center where 70 papers were sold but no March materialized very few if any nons swp members attended either event
02:42:50 members attended either event you refer there to the S swp's desire to create the environment in which disorder can
02:43:02 can grow what's the basis for reporting that exactly what I say there is such a desire and that obviously actions are underway how did you know that there was such a desire I
02:43:14 you know that there was such a desire I would have been told it by I don't know who specifically but that would have that message would have got through to me
02:43:19 me if we go to paragraph four not withstanding the efforts of the swp to inflame feelings a general level of anger within the black community is not high most members of the community
02:43:34 not high most members of the community seem apathetic towards events which do not affect them directly there are however two aspects about which the black community is United the
02:43:46 black community is United the immigration system and the perception of black people as immigrants and the treatment of black people by the criminal justice system older blacks who arrived in Britain are immigrants as immigrants are angry at the fact that someone seeking a better life for
02:43:59 someone seeking a better life for herself should lose it in the manner of Joy Gardner in many ways the older generation are more angry at the death of Joy Gardner than younger blacks most
02:44:10 of Joy Gardner than younger blacks most of whom expected the verdict as a system of the natural Injustice towards their race this very expectation and fatalism serves to temper the anger of young blacks the situation is best summed up
02:44:23 blacks the situation is best summed up in saying that there is very real anger present in the black community but it will not explode spontaneously without an additional
02:44:41 an additional accelerant focusing there on the anger about the operation of the criminal justice
02:44:42 justice system does that reinforce the answer you gave me earlier that if you had been
02:44:54 you gave me earlier that if you had been revealed as an undercover police officer at this meeting it would have been a source of particular concern uh yes uh and uh if we are dealing with a very tense situation with your words
02:45:11 very tense situation with your words very real anger would there be a risk that the revelation of undercover policing in Black Justice campaigns might have provided the accelerant
02:45:23 might have provided the accelerant that's a good angle that I've never looked at before um it might well have done I would what I would suggest is what would have happened is I would have taken the brunt of the
02:45:39 anger can we uh now go to 245 218
02:45:50 tab 246
02:46:07 sir uh this is um the report on the meeting of the 21st of June 1995 which followed the meeting that we've just looked at paragraph one this report deals with the meeting held at w green Civic Center at 1930
02:46:25 held at w green Civic Center at 1930 hours on Wednesday the 21st of June 95 to protest against the verdict in the joy Gardner trial the meeting was extremely well attended with the majority of those present being from the black community the venue was too small to accommodate all those wishing to
02:46:36 to accommodate all those wishing to enter so a public address system was used to relay the debate outside to those who were unable to gain access the majority of those present were aged 30
02:46:49 majority of those present were aged 30 plus and many were representative of the black middle classes the meeting was carried out in an orderly manner throughout it finished 22 45 hours and there was no disorder could you explain to us the significance of the
02:47:05 to us the significance of the demographic there that you have recorded 30 plus middle class uh majority uh black middle classes in that sense less likely to
02:47:18 classes in that sense less likely to well more to lose and less likely to take matters into their own hands can we go to paragraph two
02:47:31 please older generation and middle class blacks who are generally less cynical and are more inclined to believe in the criminal justice system are those who have been most moved by the verdict many of the speakers spoke in astonishment
02:47:43 of the speakers spoke in astonishment that nobody had been held responsible for Joy Gardner's death a theme that was brought to to a climax when Mrs Simpson Joy Gardner's mother spoke fluently
02:48:00 Joy Gardner's mother spoke fluently tragically and with great emotion about the death of her daughter and the hope that she did not die in vain what follows is a synopsis of the speaker's [Music]
02:48:13 [Music] contributions were you there yes how did you feel as an undercover police officer uh listening to that absolutely and totally
02:48:28 listening to that absolutely and totally moved and Reporting on it yeah obviously report not is in the cold light to day but absolutely and totally moved
02:48:39 but absolutely and totally moved particularly when they showed how um for one of a better word um Joy was trusted up like a
02:48:42 up like a slave if we go and look at some of the speakers the first Speaker local hornsey member of parliament next speaker Brian Douglas's
02:48:53 Douglas's brother third speaker after uh Mrs Simpson a white chaplain
02:49:08 after uh Mrs Simpson a white chaplain from the church of England's Commission on racial abuse then a TV personality Crystal Rose if we could go Jane
02:49:10 go Jane Coker solicitor Le Jasper of the national black caucus Grace noola whose husband died while attempting to evade police and immigration officials
02:49:22 police and immigration officials musician Jazzy B Rihanna skipio Wayne X Neville Lawrence and if we could just stop there and and look at what you've
02:49:33 stop there and and look at what you've recorded about Neville Lawrence's speech
02:49:44 please Neville Lawrence father of murdered teenager Steven Lawrence said he was shocked when he heard of Joy's death as he had believed believed that police were professionals he now believes that the white authorities did not care about blacks and that nothing had been done about Joy Gardner's death
02:50:00 had been done about Joy Gardner's death proved this he considered Joy Gardner to be a British citizen can we move on now uh with the
02:50:11 citizen can we move on now uh with the speakers Derek Isel poost Tedy surname unknown on behalf of the black media that his newspaper The Voice the weekly journal and the Caribbean times Choice FM and Identity TV had come together and
02:50:28 FM and Identity TV had come together and if we go over the page Nikki Johnson can we stop there and look at Nikki Johnson now she's from the swp isn't she yeah that's what I've written yeah Nikki Johnson spoke of the tor's need to use the race card now she said so-called
02:50:47 use the race card now she said so-called illegal immigrants would be deported she reiterated that blacks had helped build this country and now that they were no longer needed they were to be shipped back she said that the only way to get Justice against the ruling classes was to do as the people of Los Angeles did
02:51:01 to do as the people of Los Angeles did in 1992 and Riot on the street she said she found it brilliant how blacks and Hispanics carried out these riots and
02:51:12 Hispanics carried out these riots and how recently the Asian youth had done the same thing in Bradford she urged everybody to join the demonstration called for the 29th of July 95 and show the police that they would no longer accept the killing of black people how much confidence do you have
02:51:30 people how much confidence do you have in the accuracy of your record of Nikki Johnson's utterances absolutely how did Nikki Johnson's uh Speech compare in tone to the other
02:51:45 Speech compare in tone to the other speakers you heard on that day on the vast mity of the other speakers as I
02:51:56 vast mity of the other speakers as I recall from the report but as I said I'm not picking up from the time CU you ask me about 30 years ago um was that you know most
02:51:58 know most individuals basically stated the reality as the situations they saw it that there was still a long way to go for black
02:52:09 was still a long way to go for black people to get all the rights that they needed and required and should indeed have
02:52:11 have um
02:52:13 um and what we didn't get from most of those other speakers in fact not any not even Lee Jasper I imag recall although
02:52:24 even Lee Jasper I imag recall although we haven't read it out was that um one should be taking to the streets and burning things down and you know when you mention Los Angeles you have to look at the death toll involved in Los
02:52:38 at the death toll involved in Los Angeles and the cost of Los Angeles both of which were very
02:52:44 high what there was there was a great deal of criticism of the police absolutely and and quite rightly you get no defense for me on that uh and if we look then we see um we've got ruenda
02:53:04 look then we see um we've got ruenda surname unknown from the AR asking for a public inquiry Sam Parish a spokesman for the Jamaican High commission uh explaining his sympathy Mrs Simpson speaks again Bernie Grant speaks and then um the chair pushes for a public inquiry and there
02:53:22 pushes for a public inquiry and there are some resolutions passed so can we look at paragraph three in the resolutions that were passed
02:53:28 passed 3A to push for and support a full public inquiry B to demand that the pca's report be made public that's a police complaints Authority isn't it if we could go over the page
02:53:48 please thank you see to set up a Human Rights Commission of blacks to look into the abuses in this country to fill out the petition on page six of the voice and send it to the Home Secretary via Bernie Grant's office programs such as Little John and newspapers like the sun and mirror should be boycotted a
02:54:03 and mirror should be boycotted a national demonstration in central London on the 29th of July should be built and all should take part in it the decisions of the meeting should be published in
02:54:16 of the meeting should be published in the black media all of those resolutions are entirely la awful ways of advancing a legitimate cause aren't they and enti entirely
02:54:25 entirely correct
02:54:32 correct um why was this meeting reported in such detail because I think we had to understand the position and the anger that was there I mean I felt the anger myself so I imagine that others felt the
02:54:43 myself so I imagine that others felt the same anger um and of course we wanted to prevent others utilizing that as the spark that would set off you know really
02:54:56 spark that would set off you know really bad uh civil disorder because at the end of the day and this is my own personal thing the people who are going to pay for this disorder when it took off were going to be the generally the black people of that location so as I'm understanding your
02:55:10 understanding your answer the police interest in this meeting goes beyond just the swp um well I'm writing it not the police so it's my perspective it is something that I thought was of utmost
02:55:23 something that I thought was of utmost interest to the branch to understand and again that would be for the C sad Des to deal with the issue and maybe to look at how um the police could maybe try to
02:55:40 how um the police could maybe try to mitigate some of the aspects by maybe um acquiescing to some of the points made frankly so the pca's reports why was it not public example you know but it is
02:55:50 but it is your assessment that your superiors would be interested in intelligence corre about not not my superiors the the my organization about black Justice
02:56:04 my organization about black Justice campaigns no it's not we're not talking about Justice campaign we're talking about uh something that affects the stability and the um um good working actually of the most prosperous city in
02:56:18 actually of the most prosperous city in the United Kingdom and and I think that it should be something that had to be taken into account and you thought that um the intelligence gathering mechanism you were a part of would be interested in
02:56:30 in recording criticisms of the police absolutely did you get any feedback for this report no you generally didn't get
02:56:46 feedback surely if the police wanted to know the mood of the black Community there were many other mechanisms other than undercover police offic you're missing you're missing the point I'm going to meetings anyway I
02:57:01 point I'm going to meetings anyway I happen to be there cuz I would not not go to that meeting because that was a meeting that we were meant to go to so I was there at the meeting so I should record what was actually said and done rather than somebody trying to second guess the process who was not there at
02:57:13 guess the process who was not there at the meeting who could not feel the mood who did not understand what people felt who did not have the perspective that I
02:57:27 who did not have the perspective that I had was there an element of the general approach of reporting a great deal of detail in any because you see that's probably even more detail than generally that I've reported it's a lot of detail there because it was a subject that was of the most
02:57:44 importance could we take that down now please and could we move to 0245 266 at tab 249
02:58:01 a demonstration uh is being arranged I've skipped a couple of reports about the preparations for it by this stage uh the date has been resettled to the 5th of August
02:58:13 August 1995 this report is dated the 11th of July first first substantive paragraph reads at a recent meeting of organizers
02:58:27 reads at a recent meeting of organizers and activists it was decided to postpone the planned demonstration against the acquittal of three police officers charged with the kill with killing Joy Gardner from 29th of July until 5th of
02:58:39 Gardner from 29th of July until 5th of August the main reason for this decision was the need to avoid a clash with the national Unison demonstration against Health Service cups also to be held on the 29th of July those present at the meeting included Bernie Grant Linda
02:58:53 meeting included Bernie Grant Linda Bellos Gary McFarland Mna Simpson and privacy an S swp organizer it became clear that Grant and Mna Simpson Joy Gardner's mother wished to avoid disorder on the day but that Gary
02:59:06 disorder on the day but that Gary McFarland a black swp activist who is developing a serious anti- police attitude will do his utmost to provoke violence during the demonstration
02:59:17 violence during the demonstration McFarlan and his swp comrades suggested to the me
02:59:20 to the me that the demonstration should be held in Tottenham where disorder would be more likely but this was overruled by Grant
02:59:34 likely but this was overruled by Grant the demonstration will be built by the swp in the coming weeks particularly during the party's Marxism week the meeting a meeting is to be held on Thursday the 13th of July at Marxism entitled no justice no peace it is
02:59:47 entitled no justice no peace it is probable that the swp will make the Joy Gardener demonstration a national call out
02:59:48 out for its members Source comment the pronouncement by S Paul Condon that most muggers are black has deeply angered
03:00:00 muggers are black has deeply angered large sections of the black community both political and non-political the demonstration on the 5th of August will now be built on those pronouncements making it as much an anti- police
03:00:16 making it as much an anti- police demonstration as a protest against the outcome of of the joy Garder
03:00:27 outcome of of the joy Garder case uh do you uh stand by the accuracy of this
03:00:28 of this report um from my recollect I'm recollecting it from what I've written so from what's written there yes um and it's clear isn't it that Mna
03:00:46 yes um and it's clear isn't it that Mna Simpson and Bernie Grant don't want any disorder absolutely but on your understanding of events Mr mcfarlain is essentially stirring this was all that always a danger of the S
03:01:02 swp uh and that uh the pronouncements of your then commissioner were certainly not helping matters and I'm happy to say it as you can see if we could take that down and go to the next document which is 13th of July
03:01:17 is 13th of July 24531 this is the meeting held during the course of the Marxism 95
03:01:33 event um we can see that Saturday the 5th of it's about again the event planned for Saturday the 5th of August 1995 National demonstration which is going to be entitled no justice no peace 2,000 plus people anticipated with ser
03:01:51 2,000 plus people anticipated with ser ious disorder assessed as possible and an angry mood to be heavily publicized uh what does your reporting about this event add that could not have been
03:02:02 been obtained through other
03:02:11 methods I mean what part are you referring to I don't well what I'm driving at is this is a large demonstration being organized by people who don't want trouble mhm uh it's being heavily publicized so no doubt uh to20
03:02:29 heavily publicized so no doubt uh to20 would find about it find out about it in any event um what does your reporting your series of reports about The buildup to this demonstration add does it add
03:02:46 to this demonstration add does it add anything context they don't understand the mood they don't understand what's what what was um what uh different factions Within the organizing body think or
03:02:57 the organizing body think or contrive whereas I do I am amongst the people so I can get the feel of the people as well which you know regular police wouldn't be able to do special
03:03:08 police wouldn't be able to do special Branch from the desk May well have that but what I'm doing is I'm obviously informing the desk so they can understand and they will be the ones dragging this together and a whole host of other issues together in order to be able to say
03:03:21 able to say this is where we're going with it if we look um at what it involves you reporting if we could look at the second and third paragraphs
03:03:34 and third paragraphs on um the first page thank you the S swp Marxism meeting dealing with the case was held on the 13th of July at Logan Hall in The Institute of education and it was attended by 1100 people a great many of them black it was addressed by
03:03:49 many of them black it was addressed by Donald Douglas brother of the late Brian Douglas Mna Simpson mother of the late Joy Gardner and Gary McFarland a black activist in the swp Donald Douglas spoke eloquently
03:04:01 swp Donald Douglas spoke eloquently about the death of his brother and the circumstances in which it occurred he said that action should now be taken to ensure that his brother's murderers are brought to Justice although Douglas saw
03:04:16 brought to Justice although Douglas saw a place for white people in the struggle for justice for blacks he said that the fight must be led by the vict victims I.E the blacks themselves Douglas also
03:04:27 I.E the blacks themselves Douglas also called for the various Justice campaigns to unite and act together Mna Simpson spoke emotionally she recounted the Injustice of the slave trade equating it with the Injustice of the death of her daughter she spoke of her feelings of
03:04:40 daughter she spoke of her feelings of betrayal saying she had worked hard for this country and her family had fought in the second world war for Britain to be free and yet her daughter was still
03:04:51 be free and yet her daughter was still branded an illegal immigrant Mrs Simpson said she felt No Malice towards the
03:05:02 said she felt No Malice towards the average white person but she said racism was taught from above correct she urged the audience to participate in a peaceful campaign to get Justice For Joy extremely eloquent spot on with all of the
03:05:17 eloquent spot on with all of the issues um her family's fighting in the second
03:05:18 second as was
03:05:22 as was mine um you know what she didn't mention was that I think I don't know I think she's Jamaica um so that's probably that she was a British colony from about 1648 something like that so effectively British okay um so she puts all that
03:05:34 British okay um so she puts all that forward I think she does it very very well so great no problems the Nemesis you sit at the top in terms of the swp
03:05:50 you sit at the top in terms of the swp uh we'll come to the swp contribution to this meeting in just a moment but concentrating on what you are recording about the Brian Douglas campaign and about the joy Gardner campaign and the speakers MH how
03:06:02 campaign and the speakers MH how comfortable did you feel as a police officer reporting this I felt absolutely comfortable as an intelligence officer in National Intelligence reporting
03:06:20 in National Intelligence reporting something that could have a negative on the working of the state in terms of uh
03:06:22 of uh potential major disorder in the most economically active city in the country and politically active city in the
03:06:36 and politically active city in the country can we move this is not regular policing is what I'm trying to say to you can we move to the top of the next page Mr
03:06:46 page Mr McFarland uh says McFarland openly espoused riot stating that swp comrade should not only be the best activists but also the best
03:06:57 be the best activists but also the best rioters this was clearly upsetting to S swp leaders but it seemed to please a
03:07:09 swp leaders but it seemed to please a large proportion of the audience M Faron blame the death of the black people on the capitalist system linking it with all other class
03:07:16 struggles can you recall Mr McFarland doing this
03:07:22 I'd be lying if I said that I could recall that as it came from what I've written it's clearly what was said is there any possibility that you are exaggerating or overstating what Mr
03:07:34 exaggerating or overstating what Mr McFarland was urging no because you know the bit here that says um the capitalist system yeah linked with all of the class struggles is him actually grabbing it
03:07:52 struggles is him actually grabbing it back to put himself back on S swp lines in a sense he he's gone against the system this is this is clear well he's not on S swp lines at all is he no no but he's gone it but he's trying to drag it back onto the lines by saying ah yeah this is linked with all other class
03:08:04 this is linked with all other class struggles so in other words he's not attempting to be a black nationalist or attempting to be a one issue he's trying to put it together the class struggle in the end but he's clearly said what he
03:08:17 the end but he's clearly said what he shouldn't be saying incitement to Riot is a serious criminal offense absolutely was anything done about this report about this intelligence do you
03:08:28 report about this intelligence do you know um this is the problem if you want to look at it that way of the whole system of SDS if you want to look at it that way I'm saying it's not the problem if you want to keep going when somebody
03:08:39 if you want to keep going when somebody tried to kill me I'm going to put it at
03:08:47 tried to kill me I'm going to put it at the point and we knew who the people who did try to kill me were and we knew why they did it right nothing was done so that was was an attempting murder I would have been dead if not for one second I just moved somewhere else was anything done zero was done so that's the context I'm giving
03:08:58 done so that's the context I'm giving you this is even stronger one than that if we can focus on this event um Mr MF Fallen this is an utterance in a very large meeting yeah but nothing's going to be done on
03:09:21 that final question about this meeting again if it had been known that you were a undercover police officer would that have gone down extremely badly in this particular within that meeting maybe not so cuz this is at Marxism so you know maybe I could get away within
03:09:39 maybe I could get away within Marxism um it's a difficult one there were people there who would not have liked it um because we were able to bring people from outside but generally within Marxism um you you know what look I was
03:09:49 I was a I'll say it I was totally utterly conditioned to the party and that happened very very early
03:09:58 early on and the colleagues and friends you know absolutely strong friendships that I
03:10:05 I made um made me ashamed of doing what I was doing however I knew that what I was doing was
03:10:19 however I knew that what I was doing was abs absolutely necessary so that was The Balancing Act that I was going through um
03:10:30 was going through um so I did not want for my comrades to know that I was an S SP officer I wouldn't have I would have hated that for them to know that um and I'm not so sure if some of
03:10:42 that um and I'm not so sure if some of them would have known that particularly two or three I can think about if I was in a vehicle with them and they found out the anger would have been such because you know for them I was a great friend and colleague and more
03:10:54 friend and colleague and more importantly comrade that anger May well have been s such that you know if there had been a knife available they' have stuck a knife in me you know because that's you know four years five years of doing what you're doing these guys would
03:11:07 doing what you're doing these guys would have thought what the and and that might have been a problem so and I know I'm not the only one because I was speaking with hn1 who had exactly the same perspective as me and many other us you get so close to the people
03:11:20 get so close to the people um that you're ashamed if they were to find
03:11:21 find out um but we were told from day one this is a top secret operation nobody will ever know who you are there would never be a day like this that's what we were told and why would we think any
03:11:33 were told and why would we think any different cuz this was National Security this is what we did this is what we said to our agents this will never happen to you so we understood that was the
03:11:45 you so we understood that was the case can I ask you we don't have a report for the 5th of uh August 1995 demonstration in your bundle do you recall whether you went on that
03:11:56 recall whether you went on that demonstration or not I would have been on the demonstration yet can you recall what happened I can't recall what
03:12:09 what happened I can't recall what happened can we now move please to two reports that you wrote and which are dated uh July 18th of July 1995 first of all 245 302 tab
03:12:43 252 this report um is about the position of the S swp on Riot and public order you have written the position of the Socialist Workers Party On Riot and public disorder is complex and it often depends on individual circumstances aners such as the timing and the section of the community involved as regards the current issue of black anger and in
03:12:54 current issue of black anger and in particular the national demonstration entitled no justice no peace scheduled for the 5th of August the swp Central Committee would be happy for a riot to develop the very title of the event is
03:13:07 develop the very title of the event is an indication of this Additionally the swp is focusing on the black community for new recruits since most black political groups are about the economic
03:13:19 political groups are about the economic and nationalist development of the black community the swp needs to demonstrate its militant attitude and to put across its point that capitalism is to blame for all ills suffered by black people
03:13:32 for all ills suffered by black people often black groups such as the Nation of
03:13:43 often black groups such as the Nation of Islam coexist comfortably with the state attempting to cut crime poverty and IND discipline within the community an exchange for economic gain and a commitment by the authority is not to interfere with their members this is
03:13:54 interfere with their members this is total anathema to the swp the swp needs friction and rioting leads to more repressive policing which in turn leads to Greater opportunity for the
03:14:11 to Greater opportunity for the Revolutionary movement to grow the only dilemma for the swp is how to get the credit for a riot from those on the streets placing the party in the Vanguard of the struggle for black rights while not being blamed for the same Riot by The Establishment and the media in such a way that it would
03:14:23 media in such a way that it would alienate the swp from a wider slice of
03:14:34 alienate the swp from a wider slice of society this is very close to the end of your deployment isn't it is that the reason why you are writing what is a somewhat reflective
03:14:47 report and does this report accurately summarize your views at the time of the swp on Riot and public disorder correct are those still your views absolutely Still My
03:14:58 Still My Views could we go over the page
03:15:12 please uh and we see a second report um sorry to the next tab I meant could we have
03:15:13 have 24533 please sorry
03:15:30 this is a longer report uh same date uh and it says the following information representing a knowledgeable appreciation of current feelings in the black community has been received from a secret and reliable source you wrote
03:15:44 secret and reliable source you wrote this didn't you well when you read it I'll know I'll know if it's case the black Comm Comm like any other is not homogeneous in thought or deed it is however United by atrocity as is the
03:15:55 however United by atrocity as is the Jewish Community the world recognizes that the Jews suffered horribly at the hands of Nazi Germany during several years of the Holocaust but at the same time little thought is given to the
03:16:10 time little thought is given to the 400-year diaspora of Africans or to the black holocost of slavery committed by most European states and their colonial offshoots this discrepancy is the cause of much animosity between the blacks and the Jews most black people are familiar
03:16:28 the Jews most black people are familiar with the horrors of the slave trade they do not share the benign image of black workers singing in the fields of a Southern plantation but they see the atrocity in the horror and the anger
03:16:43 atrocity in the horror and the anger that slavery is still a current issue is demonstrated by a recent article in the West Indian newspaper The Voice a journalist wrote of his personal
03:16:53 journalist wrote of his personal intention to commemorate the millions of Africans estimated to be between 15 and 60 million who died during the Middle Passage to slavery the journalist intends to hold a simple ceremony at Dover on the 1st of August the lack of acknowledgement of or atonement for
03:17:04 acknowledgement of or atonement for slavery sits like a festering wound on the relationship between blacks and the rest of society if we could have the next paragraphs please the police have a
03:17:22 next paragraphs please the police have a special role in the relationship between blacks and whites they are seen as a visible arm of the state many young British blacks are descendants of immigrants who came to Britain from the Caribbean the parents and grandparents of the young British blacks have memories of the colonial police in the
03:17:40 memories of the colonial police in the Caribbean who upheld A system that was a parte in all but name blacks who joined the police were seen as Stooges of the white ruling Elite who curtail the rights of blacks to freedom of movement or to development decent housing employment or education when blacks
03:17:52 employment or education when blacks migrated to Britain it was unfortunate that many were treated with suspicion disrespect and hostility by the British police it is this common experience of parents and children of ill treatment at
03:18:07 parents and children of ill treatment at the hands of the police which has molded the difficult relationship between the black community and the police in Britain today when Joy Gardner died in circumstances reminiscent of the slave
03:18:19 circumstances reminiscent of the slave trade and the police officers accused of her manslaughter were acquitted there was a massive symbolic impact on the whole black community that Joy Gardner died while being subjected to restraining implements such as body
03:18:36 restraining implements such as body belts leg irons and gagging tapes which it was announced were authorized only for use on illegal immigrants did
03:18:48 for use on illegal immigrants did nothing to soften the blow when it was alleged that such restraints had been used only on black people it further increased the feeling that institutionalized racism is Rife go over the page
03:19:00 Rife go over the page please Joy The Joy Gardner verdict did not surprise black yous who generally have little if any faith in the criminal justice system the older middleclass
03:19:12 justice system the older middleclass blacks however felt cheated and angry it is they who are now the prime movers in the Justice for Joy Gardner campaign to
03:19:23 the Justice for Joy Gardner campaign to complete the picture and to alienate the young as well as the older element of the black community the police commissioner announced that black Hughes are responsible for the majority of Street crimes this statement has been
03:19:37 Street crimes this statement has been turned round by agitators to equate with a statement that 80% of black ye are muggers this interpretation is now the one in common usage in the black
03:19:48 one in common usage in the black community thus for once practically the whole of the black community is united
03:19:59 whole of the black community is united in its rage and anger at the powers that be having said that the black community is angry does not mean that riots are inevitable simply more likely in the present volatile climate only a small spark will be needed to ignite the
03:20:11 spark will be needed to ignite the Powder Keg the major demonstration no justice no peace plan for the 5th of August might be sufficient as might a heavy-handed policing operation Operation swamp in Brixton in the
03:20:24 Operation swamp in Brixton in the 1980s or another Black Death Or Serious injury in police custody additionally there are interested parties including
03:20:36 there are interested parties including political activists who will be trying to set off riots and serious disorder for their own ends did you write this yes from the
03:20:45 heart for
03:21:54 yes did you write this of your own valtion
03:21:59 valtion yes did you receive any feedback
03:22:11 no might this be convenient moment to break for lunch sir yes unless there's anything that you would like to add now uh we will break for
03:22:22 for lunch is there anything you would like to add now
03:22:57 no then we'll resume at um
03:23:15 2:00 e