Witness Jessica gives testimony about her relationship with undercover officer HN2 'Andy Coles' when she was 19-20 years old. She describes how the relationship developed, her time in France, police reporting about her personal life, and the devastating impact of discovering he was an undercover officer.
00:29:57 e e
00:30:42 good afternoon everybody as those who' have been here for some time know I must say this at the beginning of every long session of evidence uh the proceedings today are being live streamed those who have got uh electronic devices May uh report what they see and hear in the
00:30:58 report what they see and hear in the hearing room but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're describing that's to fit in with
00:31:11 they're describing that's to fit in with the live stream which is also subject to a 10-minute delay uh devices may not be used for recording or photography thank you um Jess I want to ask you to have a look at a report um from around the time just before the great hooky farm raid um
00:31:24 just before the great hooky farm raid um intelligence that the inquiry attributes to um hn2 MPS 07 742
00:31:35 742 252 the 15th of May 1992 is the date of the report so just a bit
00:31:42 before we may have looked at at this earlier or a similar report at least we've got a report about uh somebody whose name is uh redacted for uh privacy Associates
00:31:58 Associates JRA um and you who we looked at earlier I'll let you check the cipher
00:32:04 list and this is the subject of the report is the same as the report that we looked at earlier in connection with JRA yes so female subject and you are listed as an associate along with JRA and in this case Andrea mcan's name is also
00:32:18 this case Andrea mcan's name is also there I'll come back to ask you um about about her in a moment and can we look please at the content of this report on the next page
00:32:32 right so it's about the subject privacy is a committed animal rights activist and Ardent anarco feminist she has recently become involved in a small group of equally committed activists who intend to take part in an Alf style in
00:32:44 intend to take part in an Alf style in sorry in Alf style Liberation raids on chicken farms in the Su Sussex and Kent areas bordering London and has already been surveying likely targets with privacy privacy has no previous
00:33:00 privacy privacy has no previous experience of Al actions but has been looking for equally committed and trustworthy activists from hunt sabot groups for over a year to form a new Al
00:33:15 groups for over a year to form a new Al cell the group includes Andrea McAn and ASW that should I hope be on your list who have a track record of successful Liberation raids so it seems likely that she will remain confident that the cell will be
00:33:27 will be successful this would be wouldn't it may 199 92 around the time that the great hoodley farm raid was being planned or thought about yeah were you aware of
00:33:38 thought about yeah were you aware of this individual whom you are reported to be an associate of at trying to put together a group of equally committed activists to take part in Alf style
00:33:54 activists to take part in Alf style Liberation raids on chicken farms in the Su Sussex and Kent areas no no were you approached as what is referred to here an equally committed and trustworthy activist was is there any suggestion that you might be involved not by her no
00:34:05 that you might be involved not by her no by anyone linked to these people are you aware of any hn2 but no not the um
00:34:19 aware of any hn2 but no not the um no and Andrew McAn I think is somebody who you knew or aware of at this time yes yeah how well did you know her um I
00:34:22 um I think
00:34:24 think because um 92
00:34:29 yeah I don't know that I would have known her I knew who she was I think we I think we were like members of the same sort of group but I knew her after this we shared a house together but that was later than this is that the address that
00:34:47 later than this is that the address that we we're calling your sou London address yes yeah all right we'll come back to her in that case and ASW was that someone who was known to you a hunab it suggested here that they had a track record of successful Liberation raids was that something known to you
00:34:59 raids was that something known to you that you could comment on no if they did I didn't
00:35:05 I didn't know all right thank you and just before I move on to a different topic um you mentioned in your witness statement um that you became aware that whilst you were in
00:35:21 were in France hn1 took people from you describe our shared house to the Grand National demonstration in the year it was cancelled so that would have been 1993 if you were in France is that right if it depends when I'm not sure what it takes place usually I think in
00:35:36 takes place usually I think in springtime so March or April yes so it'd be 93 I think yeah um I wanted to ask you this were you ever aware of hn2 taking people to the Grand National not that I am aware of no thank you can I
00:35:50 that I am aware of no thank you can I come on then now to ask you about the circumstances in which you moved to France in
00:35:54 France in 1992 you say in your witness statement that by the summer of 1992 you you had been uh seeing you'd been in a relationship with h& 2 for a few months does that sound about right timing wise yes um and you were made
00:36:06 timing wise yes um and you were made aware that there was a job um vacancy that you would require you to move to France is that right and you would be
00:36:23 France is that right and you would be caring for the dogs and cats of I think youge tell us yeah princess Monaco and it was caring for dogs and cats yeah um you say in your witness statement
00:36:34 um you say in your witness statement that you consulted hn2 before taking up the job offer yes can you just say why you did that first of all yeah because we were in a relationship and it was you know I he had a say I think you know it
00:36:47 know I he had a say I think you know it was I mean I asked him what do you think I should do um because we you know we've
00:36:58 I should do um because we you know we've been together for a while and that's you know that was only right that I should have asked him um and you know I was I was hoping that he would say to go because if he'd have said today I don't know whether I would have done but as it turned out he was
00:37:12 have done but as it turned out he was like well no go you know but like for a year
00:37:14 year um so I I don't know why like your year was said or whatever but you know he did and you know even now OB would say that's that's the one sort of I think the
00:37:28 the one well I thought I don't know whether it was a decent thing I don't know you know but it seemed like you know that's the one decent thing that he did was to say that I should go you know because it was you know it was a really good
00:37:41 was you know it was a really good opportunity for me um and he didn't make it difficult for you know for me to to go um and so we stayed in a relation you know we did the long distance relationship and you just mentioned
00:37:54 relationship and you just mentioned about going for a year yes was that the length of the job offer was that something he said can you no that was something he said and had you had any idea about how long you might go to France for before he said that it was probably more than a
00:38:07 said that it was probably more than a year so you had in mind that you might stay longer it was a really good job yes um and did you do anything on the back of him saying go for a year in terms of what you said to the people who
00:38:23 terms of what you said to the people who were going to employ you no no I was you know it was that was that gave me that brought me like a a year to make a decision you know whether wanted to stay or whether you know I didn't um so it
00:38:35 or whether you know I didn't um so it brought it brought me time to to make it a decision um so yeah it was you know that me it just meant that me and him stayed together um but I was still yeah essentially you know in France when you
00:38:50 essentially you know in France when you say it meant that that you and he stayed together can you explain what you mean by that why did it mean that well because if he'd have said if he' had said you know like no I want you to stay then it I probably we probably would have split up and I would have gone
00:39:01 have split up and I would have gone anyway um but because he said to go then it meant that we didn't need to split up and what was the nature of your
00:39:13 and what was the nature of your relationship at that point in time we were a couple As far as I thought and as far as you were concerned were you getting along well um
00:39:25 together yeah I don't ever remember like not getting along with him you know we never argued or or you know anything so yeah it was just it was like an old married couple um you know yeah so we
00:39:37 married couple um you know yeah so we were the same as we ever were I guess and so the sort of you described earlier perhaps a not a great deal of intimacy I don't mean physical intimacy I mean
00:39:49 don't mean physical intimacy I mean emotional intimacy did that remain about the same yes yeah and so when you suggested that you might go to France did you detect any emotional reaction from him any any
00:40:03 emotional reaction from him any any reluctance no did that surprise you at all no not really I think you know it was it just felt like a really sort of like grownup and like adult relationship where it's well you know we talk about things there was no
00:40:19 know we talk about things there was no you know wasn't emotional at all um so no that wasn't I didn't you know I hadn't really known what to expect um from like from a relationship and I just thought that's kind of how it it just how it it
00:40:28 how it it was and your evidence that had he said no don't go you probably would have gone anyway and split up with him was that a reflection of how you felt about the
00:40:40 reflection of how you felt about the relationship or or more reflection of how I felt about the job um because yeah I mean it was it was a you know yeah it was a fantastic job offer um
00:40:57 offer um and you know so yeah I don't know that you know of the like our relationship ship would have been enough to have stopped me doing that but as it turned out you know I didn't it didn't I didn't have to think about that you know we s we came to that kind of like we'll go for a year and then if i' you know if
00:41:11 for a year and then if i' you know if I'd loved the job and I wanted to stay then I would have done but I mean he we'd also said he was going to come over and see me so it was you know I would have holidays and that
00:41:22 you know I would have holidays and that but he was going to come over and see me that had been the arrangement so you were leaving on the assumption that you would see him during that year not that you would go a whole year without seeing each other
00:41:33 whole year without seeing each other yeah oh no no because I you know I get I mean I wasn't entitled to a holiday in the first year um but you know I would be and also it sort of you know I was
00:41:45 be and also it sort of you know I was allow people to come and stay I think in the event we'll come to it but in the event he never did come to stay with you did
00:41:49 did he um you say in your witness statement
00:42:00 he um you say in your witness statement that it was the Autumn of 1992 when you moved to France are you able to be any more precise as to the month [Music]
00:42:01 [Music] um some um not to hand no I think I did look it up sort of like back in 2017 but I can't remember now I think it would
00:42:14 I can't remember now I think it would have been like August maybe September if we look there's a report um MPS 07
00:42:31 3978 B15 sir and it's a report Jessica dated the 29th of September of 1992 we look briefly at this before because of the date of birth being 1975 if we look at the content please
00:42:48 1975 if we look at the content please down thank you it it states Jessica has left the UK to work in a sanctuary for dogs and cats in the south of France yeah so that suggests that by the 29th of September you'd already left the UK does that sound yeah that sounds about right
00:43:02 about right yes it also says at the end the final sentence Jessica is no longer taking part in Al activity and she will be away for at least a year yes so based on what
00:43:16 for at least a year yes so based on what you've told us hn2 would have known that you would be away for at least a year because that's the nature of the discussion you had with him yeah that was yeah that was his I don't know why he I don't know why the year was I don't know why he suggested the year but yeah that that
00:43:27 that that would
00:43:29 would fit how widely known was it so sorry I'll start again how widely known was it amongst your friends and acquaintances that your planned period of absence from the UK was about a year in the first
00:43:41 the UK was about a year in the first instance um I don't know that anybody else would have known this was like more a he and I
00:43:55 conversation and other than um what you've explained to us that you're thinking was that you might well extend that year out longer did you discuss that possibility with anyone
00:44:15 no just whilst we're on the report um it suggests that you are no longer taking part in Alf
00:44:25 part in Alf activity other than the great hooky farm raid that we've already heard about was there any other activity that could be termed Al activity that you had been involved in before you left for France no no I mean maybe the I don't know the chicken from leaden Street I don't know but that would be
00:44:46 all thank you we can take that down was there any sort of formal goodbye between you and hn2 before you left for France or did you simply pack and pack and leave with little ceremony um I don't I don't really remember I do
00:45:02 I think it was probably like with little ceremony I remember going from um the East London address I remember like packing my stuff and going on my own to the airport from there so he wasn't present when you packed and he wasn't
00:45:14 present when you packed and he wasn't present with you on the journey to no the
00:45:19 airport had you any conversation with him before you left about whether the relationship would be monogamous whilst long distance no what was your understanding that it would be I
00:45:32 understanding that it would be I wouldn't have been in a relationship I'd have thought it was any other
00:45:42 way did you have any conversation before you left about how you would keep in contact so letters telephone calls anything like that yes yeah we that well that was yeah that was exactly it like phone calls and letters and do you remember any particular conversation
00:45:54 remember any particular conversation about that about how frequently you'd remain in touch not really no no it was just it was case of you know I I'll I'll give you a call you know on I'll WR and it was yeah it was that I don't remember any specific conversation I think in
00:46:09 any specific conversation I think in your witness statement you say that you would send him a letter around once a week is that about right I think so yes yeah I I mean I was quite I was quite homesick so I wrote quite a lot of letters and not just to hn2 no
00:46:22 letters and not just to hn2 no no you describe the content of your letters as usually being simply chat yes and does that it follow from that that you didn't tend to include
00:46:33 that you didn't tend to include intimate either emotional or physical sorts of details in your letters no not at
00:46:41 at all it was a bit sort of I think I guess it's a bit like it was quite boring and sort of in a you know I would explain I don't probably tell him about the dogs and cats and that was sort of
00:46:53 the dogs and cats and that was sort of that was it yeah there wasn't you know it wasn't a we weren't great like letter writers you know didn't have much to say really so somebody picked it up do you think they'd describe any of them as a
00:47:07 think they'd describe any of them as a love letter or was it something no less at all less emotional than that yeah did he respond to you by letter as frequently as you wrote to him
00:47:23 frequently as you wrote to him um I would say probably like about the same I think I remember having like a few letters um sort of from him
00:47:31 um but yeah I mean I remember I wrote a lot of letters but I guess trying to work out how you know who I sent them all to and stuff I mean I guess that he would
00:47:43 would have yeah he would had one probably like once a week but no maybe I wrote more then but then you know I was I was living sort of like for the most part on my own over there so I had a lot more time um because I wasn't like out with
00:47:55 time um because I wasn't like out with you know my friends I'd like left all my friends at home um so yeah I have more time to write letters so at the time did
00:48:07 time to write letters so at the time did the frequency with which he wrote to you strike you was surprising or unusual or did it all seem quite normal and as expected no as expected
00:48:17 really did there ever come a time when either of you wrote a letter that was intimate in nature he did yes can you tell us about that um yeah it was just it was like normal um just an ordinary letter so it
00:48:30 normal um just an ordinary letter so it sort of nothing you know what he'd been doing or whatever and it had like it was one line at the bottom and it was I I remember it because it was so
00:48:44 was I I remember it because it was so like out of character and quite it was it was a line about um oral sex and it was just odd you know it wasn't
00:48:55 and it was just odd you know it wasn't you know I I do remember looking it and think and sort of like I don't know didn't really know it's like what am I what's that supposed to you know am I meant to think that's like sexy cuz it's not and you know it was just it was weird it wasn't it wasn't
00:49:08 just it was weird it wasn't it wasn't like him it was you know I don't think like we' never had any conversation or anything like that so it was really out
00:49:19 anything like that so it was really out of place and really odd and that's why I remember it did you speak to him about it ever no why not just better just forget it um no
00:49:32 not just better just forget it um no it's I I no I don't really want to have that kind of conversation and that but it was I just do remember it as being just out of character I would say there's like there was nothing in any of the other letters that you wouldn't have thought that we were just friends um so
00:49:49 thought that we were just friends um so yeah this was odd and it was you know it was kind of like the it wasn't I don't think it was a PS but it was like you know like two lines sort of at the bottom
00:49:51 bottom um yeah it was strange how confident are you in calling that letter 100% did you keep any of the letters that he sent you no weirdly
00:50:05 letters that he sent you no weirdly enough I had I that letter I'd kept because I you know was part of me thinking have I missed I missed the point of it um but I'd had that but then because I'd had to go back and pick up all my stuff a lot of my stuff I didn't
00:50:24 all my stuff a lot of my stuff I didn't get back um so my my room and everything could be cleared and that it wasn't in my stuff you know it should have been just like with all my documents and stuff I mean the may have been a few other letters but I didn't get any documents or anything back so so it never returned from France
00:50:38 never returned from France no I think you also refer to speaking on the telephone with him whilst you were in France how frequent was the telephone contact between you um probably less than the letters I
00:50:49 um probably less than the letters I would think because he had um at the house I know where he was um I think I don't know if I can say it where he was living at the time yes yeah he was in
00:51:01 living at the time yes yeah he was in Stan Road in um stram and like at that place there was like a communal phone in the hall so I could ring like straight through to him and there was another
00:51:12 through to him and there was another couple of guys that lived in the um in the building so you know sometimes I get to speak to him other times he wouldn't be there and they'd answer and leave a message um probably it was easier for me I think to ring him um but
00:51:28 I think to ring him um but you know I guess probably it was more it was more by letters um and do you have an idea of the frequency with which you called him would it be every week or
00:51:42 called him would it be every week or um Maybe not maybe every couple of weeks or something because you know I was ringing at this point I think I was like I was actually ringing you know my friends who could have a conversation you know there wasn't enough conversation between me and him to like have an half an hour conversation
00:51:58 have an half an hour conversation whereas my friends you know it was just easier so you know I could be on the phone for a couple of hours to my
00:52:10 friends can you um do you have any idea um how often when you called that communal phone he would answer as opposed to somebody else was it more often than not him or more often than not somebody else
00:52:22 else um it might have been more often than not someone else because I mean quite often they would get him um but it was yeah I don't think that he got to the phone before
00:52:33 think that he got to the phone before like other people a lot of the time so or they go and knock on the door but I remember quite a few times there was other like think it was two other guys that lived in the house you said before that before you went to France you
00:52:45 that before you went to France you weren't in you weren't generally going to his address he was generally coming to the East London address so did you know the others in in his house in
00:52:59 know the others in in his house in Road no that was um no so the first time that I went that I would have actually gone to Stan Thorp Road would have been in the December of
00:53:10 in the December of 92 um so sorry yeah no that would have been the first time that so yeah initially probably then I wouldn't have met these guys but I know from the December that I knew there was two other guys that lived in the house because I had met them in what circumstances had
00:53:24 had met them in what circumstances had you met them just kind of going into his flat cuz his flat was like at the back and so there was like a corridor and I think the phone was on the left hand side but like sometimes you meet in the
00:53:39 side but like sometimes you meet in the in the corridor um and that had happened before you went to France no no no that was that was in the December yeah I didn't never went to his house I didn't go to the one in pekam I think he lived in pekam I didn't ever go to that but the one in stram the first time I went was in the
00:53:55 was in the December and so when you're calling from France and somebody else is picking up the phone they are strangers to you effectively yes yeah so you weren't speaking to them you were simply trying to find out if hn2 was there yes
00:54:06 to find out if hn2 was there yes yeah and did he telephone you back on occasion yes yeah I think he I think he must have done I don't know whether that
00:54:17 must have done I don't know whether that was a like dial in and dial out phone um or he would phone me from a phone box I'm not sure but he would on occasion when you whil you in France and can you give us any idea of the frequency with
00:54:30 give us any idea of the frequency with which he would telephone you it wouldn't be as frequently as I would phone him because it wasn't it wasn't as easy and you've touched on this but the nature of the telephone calls the sorts of things you spoke about was it similar to the letters you wrote each other or
00:54:44 to the letters you wrote each other or different in nature yeah it was it was similar you know there was no sort of like there was certainly like no you know deep and meaningful really like conversations um you know nothing like
00:54:56 conversations um you know nothing like that I think you'd be hard pressed to to imagine that like it was a couple speaking rather than a couple of friends um so neither of us I don't were like demonstrative in that sort of
00:55:08 demonstrative in that sort of way but did you understand in the run up to the December visit back that you remained in a relationship with yes yeah absolutely and did he ever say anything to you or you to him to suggest otherwise
00:55:24 otherwise no you say in your witness statement um that in the lead up to Christmas he started to complain about you being away do you remember saying that yes could you tell us a little bit more about that um he I don't know whether it was in
00:55:35 um he I don't know whether it was in letter or on or in a phone call but um had said that you know he suggested we should start seeing other
00:55:47 should start seeing other people and do you remember sort of how he put that was that were those the sorts of words he used or was I remember wider conversation um I just remember like the F the phrase you know should see other people we
00:56:00 you know should see other people we should see other people and how did you feel about that um I think I was lied and why were you lied um because that's you don't do
00:56:12 you don't do that you know you either you either with someone you're with that person or you split up and you're not with them and you go your own separate ways but to suggest that we should still be in a relationship but see other people was you know yeah I was I was angry so
00:56:27 was you know yeah I was I was angry so so you understood the suggestion not to be let's split up and see other people but let's maintain this longdistance relationship but also to see other people that that's how yeah that that was what I understood I wonder if yeah maybe he didn't mean that but that was what I understood otherwise he would have suggested breaking up I think but that
00:56:41 suggested breaking up I think but that that's certainly how I understood it so he did not suggest breaking up no and did you express your feelings to him uh yes in what way
00:56:57 him uh yes in what way um I expressed I wasn't the no basically and I was wasn't very happy with that and I think um at that point I think
00:57:08 and I think um at that point I think I I think I was I finished with him or I dumped him um yeah I was like just no you know no way and I think probably swore at him and like and finished the relationship so you told him it's over at that point yeah I was like I'm not
00:57:20 at that point yeah I was like I'm not you know no you you don't do that it was it was just such an awful suggestion that you know that I mean I suppose that took me by surprise could imagine that he would suggest that so yeah it was um yeah I was not
00:57:36 so yeah it was um yeah I was not happy you mentioned earlier um a trip back to the UK in December could you tell us how that came about um yeah I mean I I felt in the end I felt guilty
00:57:54 mean I I felt in the end I felt guilty because you know it was I was away you know it wasn't fair on him and just
00:57:56 and just I felt like I wasn't being fair um so at some point we you know we had
00:58:10 so at some point we you know we had started speaking again um and I kind of felt like i' not been fair to him you know he sort of said like to suggest that I went and then um anyway the upshot of that was that I said you know well I will come back I'll come back and visit you know so
00:58:25 visit you know so it's but I wasn't allowed I hadn't been there for long enough to have time off so I I had to work all my days off to get a week off before Christmas to come back to see him so timing wise this is before Christmas 1992 yes yeah and
00:58:46 before Christmas 1992 yes yeah and you've described um having finished it with him as a result of the telephone call or the conversation about not having a monogamous um relationship when you came back in December did you think you were in a relationship or not we we were at that
00:58:59 relationship or not we we were at that point I think that was the coming back in December was um it was kind of a concession to like me being away so like we would then you know we were then back together and I was you know I'll come back and see him and that was so it was
00:59:13 back and see him and that was so it was it wasn't like we'd have to split up you know so i' come back and see him I think I just thought I was like I'd been a bit unfair to
00:59:20 unfair to him and were you discussing this with him so it was understood between the two of you that that was the purpose as it were of your visit back yes yeah you came back then I think for a
00:59:38 yeah you came back then I think for a week yes is that right you describe in your witness statement spending a few hours with your parents yes when you arrived they picked you up with a relative from the airport yes and then going to his place in stanel Road in stram
00:59:47 stram yes how long did you stay or What proportion of your visit was spent staying with him thereafter all of it and how was your relationship uh with
01:00:04 and how was your relationship uh with him during that week it was it was back to how it had been before before he suggested we start seeing other people so it was kind of it was back it was just back
01:00:13 just back to the
01:00:15 to the same did you have any further conversation of the sort you'd had before about seeing other people no and when you said before that you
01:00:26 no and when you said before that you felt that you might be being unfair to him did you mean that you thought perhaps his suggestion that he should see other people was a was one that you should exceed to you should agree to or
01:00:38 should exceed to you should agree to or did you mean something else no I think I think because it was sort of framed as like you know well oh I don't it sounds
01:00:51 like you know well oh I don't it sounds so just gross to say it but it was like you know but he's you know he's a man and it's not fair on him and he's at needs and all that stuff and so yeah I kind of felt like
01:01:00 that that I haven't not been Fair i' maybe not taken that into account or whatever I don't know it's quite hideous to think about now but that was you know I felt I'd not been Fair because you know I just Ed and left and you know it
01:01:13 know I just Ed and left and you know it wasn't it wasn't fair to him did he ever say anything that caused you to feel that or or was that a feeling that um I think he had to have done CU I wouldn't come I wouldn't necessar to come to that conclusion on my
01:01:28 own so you stay uh with him for pretty much all of that week yes and were you also spending time with other people or were you just as a couple um I think we would have seen like some other friends and that because the I mean the other
01:01:39 and that because the I mean the other house that was in stram um like the um with sort of with there was a few other people I knew in there so I guess that we would have been socializing with other people I mean nobody I can
01:01:51 other people I mean nobody I can particularly remember but you know I can't think that either one of us would wanted to been you know stuck in like not seeing anyone else um but and I remember it was I
01:02:02 else um but and I remember it was I remember it was like it was the December because um I hadn't been to stram before and I remember like all the Christ well all of both the Christmas decorations in stram
01:02:12 stram um and yeah it was somewhere I'd not sort of been before and it was it was like Christmas sort of time but yeah so that's how I I remember and just to
01:02:23 that's how I I remember and just to clarify you referred to another address is that the address that later became yourself London address yeah so by then you already knew or knew of some people who lived at that
01:02:43 address um when you were back during that visit for that week did you engage um with Andrew Kohl's in any activity that might be described as Al style activity
01:02:57 no any chicken farm ra anything of that nature
01:03:03 no and after the December visit you went back to France yes and what if anything was discussed between you and hn2 about what would become of your relationship
01:03:16 what would become of your relationship before you left to go back to France I I think we just went back to sort of the long distance relationship again and any conversation about whether that would be a monogamous relationship or not before you left no not as far as I
01:03:31 not as far as I remember I'm going to ask that we put up on screen now two letters they're heavily redacted and only parts of them have been GED in and I'm going to ask you some questions can we start with um MPS
01:03:44 MPS 0735
01:03:45 0735 51 0 please C3 C3 sir and could we just pause there just
01:03:56 sir and could we just pause there just as I say they're heavily adapted because they're your personal letters from the time but we see it's a letter from you from an address in France and I think we see those of us who' seen the unredacted
01:04:09 see those of us who' seen the unredacted versions that you're writing to a friend is that right yes and can you just describe the nature of your friendship with the person you
01:04:23 of your friendship with the person you wrote the letters to um at the time yeah my best friend since we were like three years old um and was this the friend you described earlier of being your best friend at school um or somebody else no no it's
01:04:36 school um or somebody else no no it's somebody else so you'd been friends for a long time yes by the time these letters were written and how frequently were you writing to this individual whilst you were in France probably more so than I did to um
01:04:55 hn2 if we scroll down please to page four we'll see part of the letter that is uh remains um unredacted it's been typed back in I I think those who are looking at the document should know the date it's the 1st of November 1992 uh thank
01:05:12 you so are you taking that from the index yes I'll just clarify if I if I may um because that may be um slightly misleading um the letter itself doesn't
01:05:26 misleading um the letter itself doesn't I think bear a date on its face but the inquiry um has a statement from the individual who you wrote this letter to who has to who told the police to whom
01:05:37 who has to who told the police to whom he handed a copy of the letter that he it was from November 1992 okay so the first of November may not is may not be precise it's given the 1 but it's in fact November
01:05:49 fact November 1992 so this is before you came back for the Christmas visit on the face of it yes yeah or the pre- Christmas visits or it's my mistake all right right I'm just going to read it into the
01:06:00 going to read it into the record um and then I I will just ask you a couple of questions about it all right it says this it's really weird but I'm still going out with Andy yes all these
01:06:13 still going out with Andy yes all these miles away strange I might dump him when I see him next well when I leave him next to come back here cuz I will need somewhere to stay when I go to London aren't I I don't really want to see the house at and that's your East
01:06:28 see the house at and that's your East London address I will be really upset because people will be staying in my room bastards so I will need to stay somewhere I will let you know when I
01:06:40 somewhere I will let you know when I will be coming back that will be great sabbin seeing privacy apparently it's easy to Sab the union because the Terrier boys aren't allowed to touch you right so in November of
01:06:55 November of 1992 when you wrote it's really weird but I'm still going out with Andy to whom were you referring H to and why were you writing to your friend that it was really weird that you were still going out with him because I think we'd split up before
01:07:10 think we'd split up before that and is that what you referred to just a few moments ago yes yeah and so in what circumstances having split up in the way you described did you come to be going back out with him I guess because I I felt that I was being
01:07:26 guess because I I felt that I was being like unkind so we must have I think like um Andy and I must have spoken sort of after that because then I did kind of I did think I'd been unfair so then we got back to we got back
01:07:37 so then we got back to we got back together again um but yeah I mean I remember like when he told me I sort of I I kind
01:07:50 I I kind of I got like really annoyed and like sometimes I sort of I get like quite annoyed and like make sort of rash decisions and things and I sort of I think I did then um when I dumped him
01:08:09 think I did then um when I dumped him and so yeah this was this was afterwards so we'd obviously we'd obviously worked it out
01:08:10 it out somehow and then you say this I might dump him when I see him next well when I leave him next to come back here so that suggests doesn't it that you already knew that you were going to go back to
01:08:21 knew that you were going to go back to the UK for a trip yeah is that fair yes but that you were contemplating that by the end of that trip you might have
01:08:33 the end of that trip you might have dumped him um I don't know I think I was not still not particularly like pleased with him but I think I was just like I was just sort of saying to my friend you know it's like I would dump him you know but need somewh to say first it it was
01:08:46 but need somewh to say first it it was kind of it was like a joke sort of thing but yeah I was still annoyed you know that I was really you know I forgotten how annoyed I was that when he suggested that that so um yeah so when you read this back
01:09:03 so um yeah so when you read this back Jessica aged 19 20 yeah you see anger oh yeah I know yes I mean I I have some anger issues anyway but yeah definitely I
01:09:10 I do all right worse than the other
01:09:18 letter all right and we know from your evidence that in fact um you did come back for the week in December we've um spoken about that can we take that letter down please and could we have up um MPS
01:09:31 um MPS 0735
01:09:35 0735 511 which is the second letter that your friend provided um to the police and likewise it's heavily redacted um and some of it is written or typed back in if we look at page two um in terms of
01:09:54 if we look at page two um in terms of timing so that you know your friend told the police that this letter was from Spring of
01:09:57 Spring of 1993 okay so this much later yeah I'm not sure I don't think that that doesn't I don't think that's right I was going to ask you okay yeah no I was going to
01:10:09 to ask you okay yeah no I was going to ask you so when when do you think this
01:10:18 ask you so when when do you think this letter is likely to date from I think it must be before that because where I say like I asked him how his Andy is and I said I don't have one anymore he's really pissed me off sorry um but yes so that's got to be before then like
01:10:32 then like we before then I made it up with him that the other letter says when I'm going back you know I'll dump him because I need somewhere to stay um so I think this one predates it was there any time between the December trip back to
01:10:45 time between the December trip back to the UK and your eventual return to the UK in summer spring summer 1993 when the two of you broke up no not as far as I remember no so as far as you recall after you went back to France in
01:10:58 recall after you went back to France in December and until you came back to the UK in the summer you remained in a relationship with hn2 yeah and that's why you think that this letter which says you don't have an Andy anymore yes because he's pissed you off yeah you
01:11:10 because he's pissed you off yeah you think that must predate the December trip is that your that's yeah because it doesn't it doesn't make any sense otherwise so yeah I'm fairly
01:11:23 otherwise so yeah I'm fairly sure so what we see um here is you writing it's the same friend it's Ed um well no wonder you left it so long before you wrote you'll have to go out and make some gossip boy or you could
01:11:36 and make some gossip boy or you could just do what I do and lie it makes great reading right now taken literally you understand that that suggests that you were in the habit of telling lies I get can you
01:11:48 can you explain when 19 or 20 year old Jessica wrote that what you were intending to convey I I think it was because there wasn't there wasn't much there just wasn't much happening and I was just
01:11:59 wasn't much happening and I was just like just you know just make something up make it more interesting you know like I do you know it's just I was an idiot and it's like it's mortifying I
01:12:10 idiot and it's like it's mortifying I say it's absolutely mortifying to like to read this but I think yeah I was quite like full full of it um but yeah I mean I I didn't there was you know there's no point this was my
01:12:22 you know there's no point this was my best friend you know he knew absolutely everything um so I didn't like make up it's just like I think I was like trying to be funny and like jokey and just like a
01:12:35 a pratt and so it may follow from what you said but were you in the habit of telling lies no it goes on well how's your Andy I think you explain in your witness
01:12:46 think you explain in your witness statement that your friend and I think you were big fans of the band of Asia yes right yeah and so that's a reference to a member of that band yeah yeah it was yeah it was Andy Bell um yeah because
01:12:58 because um me and my friends like we used to go to like eria gigs and you know we were like really big eria fans so it was we kind of had a joke like well you know you're going to have to be sort of like the UK part of the you know the like
01:13:10 the UK part of the you know the like Andy Bell fan club whatever and I'll be the French part and stuff so yeah that's that was kind of you know my friend got what I meant so an in joke between the two yeah yeah exactly and then you say I
01:13:26 two yeah yeah exactly and then you say I don't have one anymore presuming meaning and Andy yeah and who is that a reference to hn2 he has really pissed me off in this letter he wrote To Me brackets I've probably already told you this close brackets new bracket I don't really care
01:13:40 brackets new bracket I don't really care here it is again anyway it's worth a few laughs close bracket he suggested that we see other people because if I decided to stay over here for another year it
01:13:51 to stay over here for another year it wouldn't be fair on him so that that's a similar um expression or feelings from him as you've told about before do you think that's the
01:14:04 think that's the same um time the same occasion yes so there there was only one occasion on which he said that to you yes is that is that right yeah and you say there it's worth a few laughs what did you mean by that um I think you know I can't I sound really
01:14:16 think you know I can't I sound really bitter you know that's how it sort of that's how I read it you know I probably you know I don't really care who is again you know it's worth a few laughs I was not you know I was I can't believe
01:14:29 was not you know I was I can't believe how angry I was you know so reading this and like
01:14:30 and like and yeah I was I was really angry I can't it's hard to think that I that that prompted the amount of anger that I think I see
01:14:41 think I see here because I don't feel that I felt you know Not Looking Back Now I don't imagine that my feelings were this strong but obviously you know they were
01:14:54 strong but obviously you know they were this is really like this is this really annoyed me all right you go on in the letters say this those weren't his exact words but in a nutshell he wouldn't be guessing enough
01:15:10 enough sex is that what hn2 communicated to you that he wouldn't be getting enough sex and that's why you should see other people in a nutshell yes is exactly that and then it goes on so if we both
01:15:21 that and then it goes on so if we both agreed to see other people he wouldn't feel
01:15:23 feel guilty yeah and I don't you know this is not I say I wouldn't it would never have been my thought that you know this this reasoning I I wouldn't I don't think I
01:15:37 reasoning I I wouldn't I don't think I would have come up come up with it on my own and then like and him sort of like then he wouldn't feel guilty you know so yeah I think it's I think he's obviously conveyed that to me and then you say this so I wrote a
01:15:56 me and then you say this so I wrote a letter back saying I'll see other people EG Swedish sailors but if you see any it's
01:15:57 it's over did you write a letter back to him to that effect I don't know I don't know I think I R I think or was it in the other letter I I
01:16:10 think or was it in the other letter I I honestly I don't know you go on then he rang me and said what do I think we should do so I said let's call it quits
01:16:23 should do so I said let's call it quits he said okay so that's roughly what you told us you remembered earlier of what happened before you went back for the December yes yeah it was yes
01:16:31 um yeah and then it goes on he I told him I'd ring him in a couple of weeks but he said no he'd write that was over a month ago so him it was getting on my
01:16:47 ago so him it was getting on my nerves anyway when bles asked if I had a boyfriend um it was that the nature of the conversation that you said I'll ring you and he said he'd write but actually didn't yeah wait it must yeah judged by this it must be yes and so you when you came back
01:17:06 yes and so you when you came back to the UK in December this had all already taken place yeah and just to finish off uh that letter I'll just go back one sentence it was getting on my nerves anyway when bles asked if I had a boyfriend good old
01:17:22 bles asked if I had a boyfriend good old me though I never lied I always said yes but I'll you because he's in London that's honest yeah apart from the last line but no what I meant is like you know is I did I said that I remember saying like there was a couple of guys and I was remember
01:17:37 was a couple of guys and I was remember saying you know I've got a boyfriend in London and it was sort of that it felt kind it felt sort of quite I mean being over there I think it felt like it was [Music]
01:17:46 [Music] um yeah you know I've got boyfriend in London you know that I kind of like it was something sort of you know worth having um um but yeah but no I didn't
01:17:59 having um um but yeah but no I didn't you know I I didn't I remember I said to other people you know it's like no I've
01:18:08 other people you know it's like no I've got a boyfriend and that's why I think I was you know that sort of like CU he's in London you know it was just no I'm still angry you know I didn't see anybody else you know I was I was faithful to him the entire time I was with him so and that's not you know I
01:18:21 with him so and that's not you know I wouldn't have it's just not me but yeah I'm
01:18:22 I'm I'm angry
01:18:32 I'm angry so when you write there that you always said to men who asked you yes I have a boyfriend but I'll you because he's in London are you saying that's not what you would say no no I would say I've got I would say about I've got a boyfriend in London the other part was just like was just a
01:18:45 was just a um like an angry sort of comment but it was a joke a joke that my friend what I kind of gotten I me reading it now yeah it's horrific um but yeah I mean I was was
01:18:59 was and like but angry angry you know but no I always you know I did at least two um I did tell at least two people that like my boyfriend was in London so you know I didn't and I didn't that's you know I
01:19:13 didn't and I didn't that's you know I never lied I said you know that comment is just stupid but yeah I never lied
01:19:41 thank you we can take that letter down um you eventually return to the UK that you say in your witness statement in May 1993 having been injured and spent sometime in hospital in France is that right yes
01:20:02 and sorry that's my mistake you say you were injured in May 1993 you returned to the UK June or July 1993 having spent some time in hospital yes yes sorry I didn't hear the dates just no it's my it's my my
01:20:18 it's my my mistake could I ask you just have a look at a report dated the 2nd of June it's MPS
01:20:20 MPS 0746 548
01:20:29 so it'll be your B sorry I'm just looking for assistance on
01:20:45 this B20 thank you I'm grateful for the assistance um Jessica so a report dated the 2nd of June 1993 the intelligence it contains has been attributed to hn2 by the inquiry
01:20:58 been attributed to hn2 by the inquiry and it says this about you in the body of the
01:20:59 of the report
01:21:08 report that you were on extended leave from your job at the animal sanctuary in France as a result of an injury and that you would be spending seven weeks in the UK before returning to
01:21:15 to work and would use the time to visit old friends in London and the southeast your old car the red mini was on now unroadworthy and would probably be scratched soon so the suggestion there
01:21:29 scratched soon so the suggestion there as at the 2nd of June is that you would spend seven weeks in the UK and then return back to work in France was that
01:21:40 return back to work in France was that the expectation when you first came back um I don't know where the seven weeks came
01:21:42 came from um I don't I mean I was I was on sick leave but I don't know where um and unlessa got a um sick note for seven
01:21:53 unlessa got a um sick note for seven weeks but I don't know I just I don't ever remember it being that precise as to how many weeks it was going to be for were you discussing what was happening
01:22:09 were you discussing what was happening to you your injury your hospitalization and your return with HM2 at the time I would imagine so yes and the accuracy of the suggestion that your red mini was unroadworthy by the time you came back to the UK and
01:22:22 the time you came back to the UK and would probably be scrapped soon is that correct um it I think it was probably I think it had been scrapped
01:22:36 had been scrapped already before you came back yes yeah if it if it wasn't then it would have been at my parents house but to be scrapped but I don't know why they would have I don't know why it would have been there for so
01:22:51 there for so long but in any even at around this time early June 1993 you did come back from
01:23:02 early June 1993 you did come back from France right and where did you stay when you came back from France um I think I stayed between um what I can remember his um Andy's flat and my parents and then possibly some time in the other house um in the the South
01:23:15 the other house um in the the South London address but because I'm because I had friends in that house but I I'm I don't know how you know I can't say like
01:23:27 don't know how you know I can't say like how long or who you know but it would be between sort of like those particularly between Andy and my and my mom and
01:23:38 between Andy and my and my mom and dads and that's his address in stram the Stan Road address and the South London address that you later moved into was quite close by to his
01:23:45 address could you've described earlier about possibly passing the other residents of his address in a hallway what was his room like in the stress of
01:24:00 what was his room like in the stress of address um it was it was quite boring um there didn't seem to be there was nothing homely or um like personal it was yeah it was a bit of a
01:24:17 personal it was yeah it was a bit of a sort of like a a shell really it was you know they he'd got um there were like patio doors that went out into the garden and so he was doing um like I
01:24:27 garden and so he was doing um like I think he did up he cut back the garden I think it was quite wild s when he moved in and there was a train track at the bottom um other than that there was nothing it was just it was kind of like just a bit an empty box really his his
01:24:39 just a bit an empty box really his his place um when you came back from France that
01:24:40 that summer and stayed there did you understand that you were still in a relationship with him yes yeah and what did you base that on had you discussed what you were going to do when you came
01:24:53 what you were going to do when you came back or was it taken as for granted what was the sit it was taken for granted because we were still together when I went over there once we'd sort of got back together and I'd been like home um in December then we were just back
01:25:05 in December then we were just back together again and any more discussion when you came back about monogamy or the status of your relationship in any way
01:25:16 status of your relationship in any way um no no so we just kind of seem to go back into the same sort of like old married person's relationship so spending time sometimes
01:25:27 relationship so spending time sometimes together sometimes with other people is that fair yeah yeah that's
01:25:38 that fair yeah yeah that's fair and for how much longer roughly did your relationship with hn2 last after you returned to the UK um I don't remember maybe a couple of months I can't I can't be exact but sometime something around that you
01:25:52 sometime something around that you describe um in your witness statement that you were eventually let go from your job in France in August of 1993 yes were you still as far as you were concerned in a relationship with hn2 when that happened
01:26:04 when that happened um
01:26:10 um um I don't know I don't know possibly possibly
01:26:19 not but only because I I don't think it was longer than like a couple of months and that would make that a couple of months so no I don't I don't think we would have been could you you describe how the relationship with hn2 came to an end um
01:26:34 end um yes we obviously we knew like the people in this other um in the other my South London address and so we would see them and um there was um there was
01:26:49 was um there was another I think yeah there was somebody else I met someone else basically and just because then I sort of I realized that you know I suddenly I was looking forward to seeing somebody and actually sort of like felt you know there was
01:27:01 sort of like felt you know there was there was some sort of chemistry there was some kind of spark and it just like
01:27:14 was some kind of spark and it just like after all that time with um with Andy I didn't it just it felt so completely different that it just I think it highlighted just what Andy and I didn't have um
01:27:21 have um so yeah I I told him um I you know I said it's just it's not
01:27:35 um I you know I said it's just it's not you know it isn't it's not right I told him that I liked you know someone else um I think I told him who and I just said you know it's kind of it's made me realize that it's you know there's nothing is not right between us um and and yeah I mean
01:27:47 and and yeah I mean he he just completely agreed and that that was it um so able yeah very much so
01:27:59 that was it um so able yeah very much so um it it felt it just felt like well you know that's obviously because you know grownups and stuff and we were so grown up about it and you know me yeah now looking back you know but at the time
01:28:10 looking back you know but at the time yeah it just seemed you know that was of you know like that was a very grown up way of doing things and it was all okay and you know eventually I did start seeing um this other guy and and like
01:28:21 seeing um this other guy and and like Andy still used to come around so used to spend a lot of time at house with us as well and it was and everything was fine so were you surprised by his
01:28:32 fine so were you surprised by his reaction that it it was all unable and straightforward no I I don't think so because he wasn't I say he wasn't really like a particularly emotional or like demonstrative sort of person so it it seemed within completely within his
01:28:44 seemed within completely within his character that he you know he just you know and mine as well it was like there was no you know there was no sort of
01:28:56 was no you know there was no sort of like tears and incriminations it it just we both understood that that was how it it
01:28:57 it was just want to explore a little bit some of the things you've said about the south London address and how you met this that your next partner I'll refer to him in that
01:29:09 to him in that way he was was he at the time when you met him already living at what would become your South London address um I think so yes I think so did you meet him at that address or somewhere else no I
01:29:20 at that address or somewhere else no I met him at Andy and what do you remember about the circumstances in which you met him um I remember I was Andy and I we' we were either like in he'd got a um
01:29:33 we were either like in he'd got a um like a pull out sofa in his um in his flat and I think we were in bed um and
01:29:48 flat and I think we were in bed um and the front doorbell went so it was kind of like having to like get up quickly you know get dressed and like you know it just it was a little bit kind of awkward and we weren't expecting any body and then that's when um this guy and um Andrea came around
01:29:59 um this guy and um Andrea came around and that's Andrea Manan yes and did you know Andrew Manan at that point you did and did you know the man who would become your partner at that point I didn't that was the first time I met
01:30:16 didn't that was the first time I met him and so it was at h& 2's address in Stan thought Road where you first met him
01:30:24 yes were you aware whether Andrew McAn lived at what would become your South London address at the time um I'm not sure I'm not sure if she if she did I think she did I think she
01:30:36 she did I think she did I think she lived there before I did yes and there came a time then when you moved into that South London address yes and was that essentially because you had struck up a new relationship with your new partner who lived there um I'm not sure
01:30:50 partner who lived there um I'm not sure was it independent from him I'm not sure it may have been it may not I can't I can't remember it depends whether I was in
01:31:01 remember it depends whether I was in like that room cuz I think at one point like everyone moved into like each different H room around the house so um I initially think that it was because we were together but then if ID been in that room first then I would have been
01:31:16 that room first then I would have been on my own but you know like um Andie and I spent a lot of time in that house so we would have stayed over in that house before um before I moved in so I'm kind of I'm not entirely sure
01:31:27 of I'm not entirely sure um I'm going to come on in a moment a bit more about the setup of that house before I do did you understand hn2 already had had a pre-existing relationship with at least one person
01:31:40 relationship with at least one person who lived in the South London address by the time you got back from France uh a by relationship I just mean a friendship some sort of yes I knew yeah he knew um
01:31:51 some sort of yes I knew yeah he knew um Andrea Andrea mcam yes so you understood he had a pre-existing connection to the South London address through Andrew McAn yes and what did you understand about his relationship in a neutral sense with Andrew McAn at that stage were they
01:32:02 Andrew McAn at that stage were they friends were they acquaintances were they best buddies I mean acquaintances as far as I knew and I guess you must have known the guy as well um and also there was another um there was another
01:32:14 there was another um there was another woman lived in that address as well and he I knew he knew her so I think he's I mean I think he was familiar with the house and everybody that was in it and the house itself
01:32:28 it and the house itself was um a house again in multi-occupancy so in people in rooms in different bedrooms within the house how many bedrooms did it have
01:32:39 um um like one right one downstairs and then two three upstairs and you moved
01:32:53 then two three upstairs and you moved into which bedroom um I think upstairs or downstairs the back um back no the yeah the back upstairs room I think and do you remember who occupied the other upstairs rooms when you moved in
01:33:08 in um I think Andre I think Andrea was down Andrea was downstairs I think in the front room but then at some point then she moved up to the front bedroom the big front bedroom
01:33:21 big front bedroom um sorry sorry yeah it was I think it was like everybody was in every room like in the end I ended up like having three different rooms in that house so it's kind of confusing um to know can I
01:33:33 it's kind of confusing um to know can I ask if you look at your Cipher List have you got that in front of you did the individual the inquiry is calling EAB live in that address at the same time as you yes and was she there when you arrived or did she come after you to
01:33:46 arrived or did she come after you to your recollection um I think she was I think she was there when I
01:33:55 arrived when you moved to the South London address was your relationship with hn2 ongoing or had it finished it would have been um we would have visited it certainly we would have visited it
01:34:07 it certainly we would have visited it when we were together um I'm I'm still
01:34:21 when we were together um I'm I'm still I'm not sure about the moving in thing I don't I can't 100% say um but you know we certainly would have been we would have spent quite a bit of time there together because from the time that I split up with him um you know I would
01:34:32 split up with him um you know I would have got to have known the other guy you know it was it wasn't a quick thing so um you know so we did spend time there and obviously they you know like I me
01:34:48 and obviously they you know like I me Andre and him came to um Andy's so we spent a lot of time together um but I'm I
01:34:50 I'm I think I can't remember everyone it was it was a bit mad there was so many sort of like different people one person would move out and then like there'd be sort of like a scrap for their room and someone else would move in because some
01:35:03 someone else would move in because some of them were a lot some of the rooms are a lot better than the others when you've described sometimes staying over at that address with Andy with hn2 is that right and why would you do that when his address was just down
01:35:17 do that when his address was just down the road I I think it's sort of like if you staying up late and like you know and having a drink and just it was it was what you did and you know I mean he's quite right as well about saying you know like quite often you stay over
01:35:32 you know like quite often you stay over at different activist house and you know so we we would have done yeah we would have stayed over sorry sorry I interrupted you yeah no I saying we would have you know we would have stayed over at that at that house you know and
01:35:43 over at that at that house you know and if I did if I did live in there whilst I was still going out with him then he would have stayed over but you know I can't I
01:35:48 can't I honestly can't say 100% so no clear memory about whether he stayed over there whilst you were still couple and you were resident at the address no clear like absolute memory
01:36:02 address no clear like absolute memory but you know yeah it's it's like it's likely
01:36:07 likely because where where my mom and dads were you know it was it was a pain to get to this so I wanted to be in London with my friends so I would have you know I would have I would have wanted to be there as
01:36:21 have I would have wanted to be there as soon you know as quick as as possible so yeah but I can't say 100% And when you stayed over at the South London so before you moved in yeah but you stayed over there with Andy with hn2 as a couple yeah where in the house did you stay um have a bedroom or somewhere else
01:36:36 stay um have a bedroom or somewhere else we would have said we could have been in any of them because if I mean if there was nobody in the front bedroom and the bed was fre you know then we would have stayed in there if or the back bedroom you know it depends who was it would
01:36:52 you know it depends who was it would have depended who was in you know no one was there was no you everyone was fine people staying we trusted everybody there that was there so no one had any problems you know if I was away and somebody else came to stay then you know it was s we was taken as red you know they can have my room that was
01:37:08 they can have my room that was fine do you recall ever having a conversation with EAB who lived at that address about your relationship with hn2
01:37:18 hn2 um not a specific one but I mean I used to spend we got on very well so you know us to spend a lot of time and had loads of conversations with her but I don't remember a specific
01:37:31 remember a specific what she has given a witness statement to the inquir she also gave one to the police investigation that that followed from your um complaint um regarding
01:37:46 from your um complaint um regarding hn2 and she suggested that you told her at some point that you weren't Keen to continue the relationship with him do you recall having a conversation of that nature I don't recall it no do you recall ever being in the South
01:37:58 do you recall ever being in the South London address whilst you were still in a relationship with hn2 and EAB being around I mean it's yeah it's more than it would have been more than likely you
01:38:09 it would have been more than likely you know because we did you know we were in the same groups as well so like London boots Action Group and that as well so yeah that would be more than
01:38:19 likely could I ask you a couple of questions um about Andrea McAn yes um you say in your witness statement
01:38:30 um you say in your witness statement that whilst you were living at the South London address I think with Andrew McAn at the same time yeah um she reported something to you about h& 2's Behavior whilst you had been in France yes could you tell um us what she told you Yes um
01:38:48 you tell um us what she told you Yes um we were I remember where we were as well when she said um it was this was when she was in the front downstairs like bedroom and we were talking I mean she and I got were really good friends and I remember she said in that kind of in
01:39:01 remember she said in that kind of in that way of sort of that kind of oh you know she was she was like broad bolon accent and I remember her being kind of you know oh my God you know did I you know did I tell you about Andy um and
01:39:20 know did I tell you about Andy um and she and she was saying that she he tried it on with her and um and I remember sort of I guess I then I realized that she didn't know that like he and I like had been together um I wasn't with him at
01:39:31 been together um I wasn't with him at the time and she said that um she said she been I think she was upset about something or you know he was trying to like you know to be sort of like
01:39:42 like you know to be sort of like comforting or something and then like he did he went in for the kiss and she was you know she had a I mean she had a brilliant turn of phrase you know sort of like she was just like oh and I told
01:39:53 of like she was just like oh and I told him this and you know was really sort of like quite it was quite funny the way that she sort of said it um and you know was kind of like she told him on in no un certain terms like
01:40:05 told him on in no un certain terms like no um and and I asked her I sort of said I didn't say anything about like being together but I said you know what when you know when would that have been and so she sort of worked it out and and I said I was like all right so so you know when I was in like when he and I were
01:40:18 when I was in like when he and I were together then but when I was in France and she was blessed she was so mortified you know I didn't said it doesn't you know it doesn't matter I was like I don't care you know I think I was with like
01:40:31 like um U my other partner at that point but she was yeah she was mortified but I didn't you know that was it sort of well you know it was I didn't know other up until then you know that he was actively
01:40:43 until then you know that he was actively like trying it on with other people when I was away but you know I think that was the point when we were still in the
01:40:55 the point when we were still in the relationship so um you know yeah she was more Mor about it than you know than I was so how did you how did you feel about learning that he'd um tried it on with someone else whilst you were a away I think I was just you know kind of like
01:41:07 I think I was just you know kind of like oh it's just gross you know but whatever I didn't care at that point you know I was actually in like what I then thought was like a proper you know it was it was so different the relationship then that I was in it was just showed me you know
01:41:19 I was in it was just showed me you know whatever like Andy and I had had was you know it
01:41:21 know it was yeah it was not it was it was nothing you know and I wasn't so I wasn't it didn't upset me I didn't I didn't sort of care but the part of me was like you know okay you know now I now we know but
01:41:33 know okay you know now I now we know but I I didn't care and so Andrew mcam being mortified was as the result of realizing that you had been in a relationship with him yes at the time that this
01:41:48 him yes at the time that this happened um could I ask you this I think Andrew McAn is since has since died is that right yes and when you were being interviewed by the police and you referred to somebody who was terminally
01:41:59 referred to somebody who was terminally ill and didn't want to come forward was was that a reference it was yeah so the account that you gave to the police about something similar happening to a woman that was an account you
01:42:10 to a woman that was an account you didn't name her at the time but that was an account about Andrew mcel yes thank you um can I can I just mention as well um she's also um referred to in the
01:42:22 um she's also um referred to in the power base article where she's actually named as
01:42:24 named as um so I think it actually um there's there is an incident that it's it's the same I think it's the same incident and there's another one um in
01:42:38 incident and there's another one um in there that she um told to um donor ois school so you you you understand that she's been given effectively a cipher in that yes and it says Emily but it means Andrea mcam yes thank you could I ask you um a little bit more
01:42:55 you could I ask you um a little bit more just about Andrew McAn briefly Could you um give us a physical description of what she looked like in around 1993 um yes she was she was a bit taller than me
01:43:07 than me um she was quite he quite a bit heavier i' say than me she she always had like sort of like red kind of henned hair and like I say proper broad Bolton accent was she older than you um a
01:43:22 accent was she older than you um a couple I think a few a few years I think yeah I know she definitely was older than me but yeah I think just a few years did you ever become aware of her staying at hn 2's strum address in stal
01:43:35 staying at hn 2's strum address in stal Road not until like 2000 not until like after I found out about and hn2 so at the time no awareness no what have you since found out and through through which means um it was yeah it
01:43:50 through which means um it was yeah it was through donor because after after I'd found out um I I think I was the last person when all this kind of happened I think I was the last person to be found to be contacted
01:44:04 last person to be found to be contacted when they knew when he'd um hn2 been um like exposed I think I was the last person that anybody had managed to find um so it I think the power base article was already
01:44:16 was already um it was already on there about it and I think Don had said you know um I that's the first time that I really sort of realized like the creepy Lech sort of part and like and
01:44:30 creepy Lech sort of part and like and how many other people had said things I didn't I was completely oblivious to that I think beforehand um I just want to con What specifically if anything no don't be sorry what specifically if anything did you learn about the relationship I use
01:44:42 you learn about the relationship I use that in a neutral sense the relationship between Andrew McAn and hn2 that you hadn't known before um about when she stayed over at his flat when um I think the night before she went up north um
01:44:54 the night before she went up north um and he was was sort of like being quite sexually sort of pushy with her um I didn't know about that so you learned that not directly from her but through
01:45:05 that not directly from her but through someone else through Donald skull later on did you understand that to have involved her staying in his bed in the same bed yes and for one night is that what you're saying
01:45:23 yes all right thank you so I just um we could either take the break we don't have to take the break but we need to come off of the YouTube stream for the next short section of my questioning it can be done without a break or given the time we could take a short break now
01:45:36 time we could take a short break now um okay I'm told that it's better to turn it off I'll ask the short questions and then take the break before it switched back on yes of course sorry I'm just I'll wait for confirmation that the stream has been
01:45:49 confirmation that the stream has been taken down which should come from the back of the
01:45:51 room
01:46:21 for
02:12:50 e e
02:13:41 we're now back on Stream So usual rules apply yes thank you um and Jessica now that we are back on screen just to
02:13:52 that we are back on screen just to summarize I'm not going to use any names but the evidence that you gave when the stream went off um was to the effect that
02:13:54 that um contemporaneously so in the early '90s you heard from one woman um that hn2 had attempted to kiss her and
02:14:10 hn2 had attempted to kiss her and subsequently you finding out about hn2 being an undercover officer two other women had um told you of similar instances yes with him and that comes from a power base in part sorry not comes from but is reflected in a
02:14:21 comes from but is reflected in a powerbase article and the reference for that I'll just give it for the record is ucpi 034 357 just so that is on the record
02:14:34 record yes um I'm going to just um ask you now some questions about some specific details that you've given in relation to hn2 and your relationship with him before we um move to look at some of the reporting On You by him all right you
02:14:47 reporting On You by him all right you say in your witness statement that you never met any of his family is that correct yes that's right and did he tell you anything about his family um not that I actually
02:14:59 that I actually remember and I think you you've said already today and in your witness statement that you were relatively incurious about about him so not something you asked about or not no not that not I remember asking about I say I
02:15:12 that not I remember asking about I say I think I wasn't as girlfriends go I don't think I was a very good one in terms of what you thought he did for work can you tell us what you you understood yeah he was um man with a van so used to advertise in like um news
02:15:28 so used to advertise in like um news agent shop windows and would sort of like do like removals and that for people um yeah that was what he that's what he told me he did and there were times I think you say in your witness
02:15:41 times I think you say in your witness statement when he would go away out of London as far as you were concerned and did you understand that was linked to his job yeah I think so I don't ever remember it being sort of like for a family thing or anything like that you know if the were times when he wasn't
02:15:56 know if the were times when he wasn't available I think I thought it was it was just
02:15:58 was just work I want to ask you some questions it's to do with the sexual relationship that you had with him you say in your witness statement that he always used condoms yes did you ever have a
02:16:16 condoms yes did you ever have a conversation at the outset about that do you recall I don't recall not at the at the beginning no did you ever have a conversation in particular about whether or not it was acceptable to use a condom that was not vegan no I didn't ever
02:16:31 vegan no I didn't ever um I remember that back in the day there was like condoms weren't vegan but I don't remember knowing that when I was with him because he always used one so I think that was something then that was either that a knew later or that came
02:16:45 either that a knew later or that came out later but not um I didn't know the time cuz he always used one and there was never an issue so you know that he's suggested in his witness statement that there was some discussion between you um about him not being willing to use a
02:17:00 about him not being willing to use a condom Because unless it was a vegan one yes yeah what do you say about whether that conversation happened um we had a conversation about condoms but it that's not the context of it at all can you
02:17:14 not the context of it at all can you tell us about the conversation you did have about condoms yeah um it
02:17:20 um it was I think it was um it was after we had had sex and um
02:17:29 um I I mean I from a sexual relationship I didn't quite know like what my expectations were but I kind of I just I don't know I think I just
02:17:44 I just I don't know I think I just imagined that it would be different and and so I think I wondered whether it wasn't as good because maybe he was wearing condoms I didn't I didn't know but I suggested to him one time that he
02:17:55 but I suggested to him one time that he didn't maybe need to wear one I mean I I no idea what I was wasn't thinking but that's what I suggested and how did he react to that suggestion um he said he had to um because he'd already had um
02:18:12 had to um because he'd already had um one child and so he would always wear one he didn't want any more children well he he didn't want another accident is that how he described it to you or is that how you understood I understood it but it was sort of he didn't want it to happen again um I I
02:18:29 didn't want it to happen again um I I don't think he Ed word accident but you know he didn't want it to happen again when he told you that was that the first time you heard from him that he already had a child yes and how did you react
02:18:41 and how did you react um I was a bit annoyed because that's something you that's not something you wait until you're in a relationship with someone to tell them that's something that you would would or should say
02:18:52 that you would would or should say beforehand um so I was I was quite
02:19:03 beforehand um so I was I was quite surprised and quite taken back and a bit annoyed um but and then he sort he went on sort of to say you know but he doesn't see he doesn't see her and that the um the woman that he had the relationship he wasn't like a a proper
02:19:19 relationship he wasn't like a a proper relationship um and so they didn't that you know they weren't together um but then he wasn't allowed to see his daughter she wouldn't let him see her did he tell you anything about the age of the daughter yeah he said she was
02:19:33 age of the daughter yeah he said she was two and a half and how confident are you that that was the age he gave you I'm confident or two two or two and a half but yeah definitely in within the two year range is it possible that he gave
02:19:49 year range is it possible that he gave you an older age and you just remembered no did he give you a name Sophie and again how confident are you bring that name yeah it was I mean that's that's a conversation that I I distinctly remember because it
02:20:02 distinctly remember because it was because of the way that it sort of happened um and it was it was a big thing you know shouldn't like because obviously we've been together for quite a while at that point and this is the
02:20:14 a while at that point and this is the first I've heard of it um so yeah I was a bit
02:20:20 a bit um a bit shocked and um and then when he said because he did say you know he wasn't able to see her and then I do remember sort of like feeling a bit relieved because you know it's I wasn't I didn't want to be like a you know any
02:20:39 I didn't want to be like a you know any sort of Step kind of Step mom-ish person to you know to a small child it's like that's it you know that wasn't really it was too it was too much and so you know I then when he said like he wasn't allowed to see her I felt a little I was sort like thank God for
02:20:53 little I was sort like thank God for that and then just like not long after that that what horrible you know that was a horrible thing to think it's like if he wanted to see her and I thought that was good that he didn't I just felt really
02:21:04 really awful um so I remember it was like it was such a quick you know my the feelings that I had just went sort of so quickly and then I just I felt really awful because it's like if he wanted to see her and he wasn't allowed then that's you know
02:21:15 wasn't allowed then that's you know that's not nothing that I should be pleased about is sad um but yeah I um yeah I definitely remember and I remember him saying that was her name
02:21:27 remember him saying that was her name and her age did you express any of the feelings that you've just expressed now to him at the time no no um and the way I mean I remember where I was I was
02:21:40 I mean I remember where I was I was still in in like bed in the um pull out bed in his flat and the he was like towards the end of the bed but there was the patio doors and either he was either turned away or
02:21:51 turned away or like the sun was behind me because I couldn't see his I couldn't see his face he couldn't see my face and I'm you know I think I was I must have looked like
02:22:03 I think I was I must have looked like really shocked and that and um and then because at the same time I had this horrible you things are not funny but you find things funny and it's like really inappropriate and I did I
02:22:17 really inappropriate and I did I suddenly had like a um like in my mind I could see him like holding the hands of a little child but the child also like had had a beard glasses in a beanie and it just so it was like a tiny little
02:22:30 it just so it was like a tiny little hymn and it just it wasn't funny and I had to really like be careful not to look like I'm think you know like I burst out laughing but it was just one of those things I couldn't like I just saw it and yeah so now I remember because there was actually there was an
02:22:41 because there was actually there was an awful lot of like emotions went through my head then so you know yeah I I remember it you've described where you were so that Stan thought Road you're describing do you know when that
02:22:55 describing do you know when that conversation happened your evidence so far is that you didn't go to that address before the December 1992 trip home yeah I think it would been I think it was after that because um I mean
02:23:06 it was after that because um I mean although the sunshines in like December but it was bright it was bright outside so whether it was sort of like warm um but I mean that could be it would have
02:23:19 but I mean that could be it would have been either the week in December I don't think it was but or after when I came back from fr okay so that would be June is onwards from 1993
02:23:41 yes did you ever introduce him to your parents as your boyfriend or partner or anything of that nature um he met my parents but I would never have introduced him as my boyfriend um can I ask why not um I wouldn't have introduced anyone to my parents as my boyfriend it's sort of
02:23:54 boyfriend it's sort of awkward did you talk to them about personal relationships or sexual
02:24:03 relationshipss you mentioned in your witness statement you think there was an occasion when he offered to drive you home to collect some things to take to the East London address yes and is it possible that he might have met your parents on that occasion yes
02:24:24 you um are aware I think that in his witness statement it's paragraph 278 he describes an occasion of Towing your car to your parents address from a hunt Saab
02:24:36 to your parents address from a hunt Saab where it had had some sort of problem or broken down and that you asked if he wanted to stay over at the address what would you have to say about about that
02:24:47 would you have to say about about that no that's not he towed that's not true he towed my car back from um brickton where I'd lent it I was in France at the time and I'd lent it to one of my
02:25:00 time and I'd lent it to one of my housemates and it had broken down and um he towed it back with um EAB and had toed it back to my parents but I was in France at the time because otherwise if I'd been if I'd been there I would have been I would have been with
02:25:13 I would have been I would have been with him but I wasn't because I wasn't in the country um it never it only broke down only ever broke down once on a sabp um and that was um because the hunt did something to
02:25:24 um because the hunt did something to distribute a cap or something rather they they like they did something to it but that's but then that was fixed it wasn't towed home even then but it never
02:25:40 wasn't towed home even then but it never broke down on a Sab so he did tow my car back but I wasn't there and how did you learn of it if you weren't there um I was I was in touch with him when I was in France so I knew I knew that that was going to that that was going to happen through him yes
02:26:04 yeah sorry just bear with me a moment
02:26:23 all right thank you I want to move on to ask you some questions about some individual reports that um contain intelligence that the inquiry has
02:26:34 intelligence that the inquiry has attributed to hn2 okay um that you will have seen when preparing your witness statement the first I want to ask you about concerns the horse and Hounds ball in 1992 it's MPS at
02:26:45 in 1992 it's MPS at 0730
02:26:50 0730 957 and it's dated the 11th of March March of
02:26:52 March of 1992 and to be clear you are not named in this report but I think it's you did attend this event is that right yeah it's B1 sir in your
02:27:11 bundle and because it's relevant to what comes next I want to just read through this report with you please Jessica so it it reports on um what's suggested the organization involved is hunt sabar
02:27:35 organization involved is hunt sabar Association at the groser house hotel in Park Lane London W1 on the 5th of March 1992 at 1900 hours so 700 p.m. and the nature of the event is described as a demonstration against the horse and Hounds
02:27:36 Hounds ball now you attended this can I ask you the horse and Hounds ball was that an an annual event attended by people
02:27:47 annual event attended by people associated with hunting yes and so the demonstration was an anti- hunting demonstration is that a fair description it was it was nothing to do with the hunt sabar Association though what how did it come to be organized as far as you were concerned um it was it would
02:27:59 you were concerned um it was it would have been um I mean it could possibly have been like um just a London animal rights thing that any you know there's probably any of about like 20 organizations that would have known
02:28:10 organizations that would have known about it so and then word of mouth but you know it wasn't it was not hun saar's Association they didn't organize things like that the numbers attended in this document are recorded as 82 100 is that
02:28:26 document are recorded as 82 100 is that consistent with your recollection of the numbers present no greater or lesser number that's it was as far as I can remember as about 20 to 30
02:28:39 people and it next to the subheading disorder occurred 14 arrests are recorded do you recall that many arrests um I remember um
02:28:50 um I remember um four about five I think but I don't I don't know because of the way that I was
02:29:08 don't know because of the way that I was um arrested I didn't I I didn't see what was happening or anything um so I don't know it's just that I know because I I appeared in court with some of the people afterwards but I didn't see what happened I'll just reading what it says um in the substance of the report about
02:29:19 um in the substance of the report about the event starting at the bottom of that page
02:29:23 so it says this the demonstrators assembled outside the front and rear entrances of the hotel from 1900 hours and kept up a noisy and aggressive protest do you agree that the protest
02:29:34 protest do you agree that the protest was noisy and aggressive um I would say it's noisy but I mean aggressive that's what if you're shout
02:29:46 aggressive that's what if you're shout you know it was people it was noisy you know I don't know that you would say it's aggressive unless people are aggressively noisy no I wouldn't say aggressive they were
02:29:56 they were shouting I keep reading as their numbers grew the protest became more vifer and at about 20 30 hours so 8:30 p.m. a small group of protesters attempted to move to another entrance to the Hotel
02:30:07 move to another entrance to the Hotel this action prompted a firm response by uniform officers who forced the group back into the fenced off area set aside for the demonstration and one of the group was arrested do you recall events unfolding in that way no I
02:30:23 unfolding in that way no I don't it says at this point the mood of the demonstrators changed and one of their number threw a bag of flour at two stretch limousines which had pulled up outside the hotel do you recall the mood of the
02:30:38 hotel do you recall the mood of the demonstrators changing around about the time that limousines pulled up no I don't and I don't from where I was I don't know if people went to go to
02:30:50 don't know if people went to go to another entrance I don't know I was sort of Fairly like in the middle so I don't know if people they could have gone I don't know they could have gone on to go to another entrance but as far as I know or as far as I remember like there was
02:31:03 or as far as I remember like there was just there was one entrance that people were using so um but no I don't it didn't
02:31:05 didn't um there was shouting I remember that so no I didn't feel that there was anything changed particularly were you in the what's described here as a fenced off
02:31:18 what's described here as a fenced off area borded off area yes and were there people all around you yes yes were you packed in quite tightly or not yes and could you see through you've described being in the middle could you see through or pass the people around you um
02:31:30 through or pass the people around you um no I'm reasonably short and I couldn't I couldn't see I see everybody's backs but I couldn't see over I mean I was at one point I was on tiptoes because you know
02:31:45 point I was on tiptoes because you know there was a bag of flow thrown over and so I was trying to see what they were throwing it at because I I couldn't see um so I was on my tiptoe s of trying to look over
02:31:57 look over um but yeah and I couldn't see I didn't see like when he says I think the the car or something I was there was no way I could have seen that at all you know it would have been over in that sort of
02:32:11 it would have been over in that sort of Direction but there was just people you know all around so how did you become aware that a bag of flour had been thrown I I saw it go over and had you anticipated that that might happen um yeah it sometimes did
02:32:23 might happen um yeah it sometimes did so yeah it wasn't it wasn't a complete shock um the report goes on a few
02:32:35 shock um the report goes on a few minutes later another bag was thrown and officers who had seen the culprit moved in to make an arrest do you recall a second bag of flour being thrown
02:32:40 thrown um not not really but I don't I don't yeah probably it or maybe I don't remember but yeah there's that might be right the report goes on some of the prot has attempted to Shield the
02:32:56 prot has attempted to Shield the perpetrator and in the ensuing scuffle a number of activists including Andrew McAn and privacy were arrested it follows from the redaction Ju Just saying privacy that that's not your name because it would say Jessica if it if it had been so it's suggesting that um
02:33:11 had been so it's suggesting that um protesters first of all attempted to Shield the person the police were attempting to arrest do you recall that happening um
02:33:24 not not exactly like that um I saw maybe I don't if it was the second bag of flow I saw who threw one bag of flour um if there was two or I saw the person throw the first bag of flour um but what happened then because
02:33:38 flour um but what happened then because I was like leaning trying to see um and stuff the just at that kind of time the crowd had parted and there was a cop there and like that's it was he saw me
02:33:54 there and like that's it was he saw me looking and it was like that was it he pointed at me and it's like right you and like I think the shielding the trying to Shield one I think that was actually people saying to me like get they pushed me down so I me I was like I didn't get trampled but they just like get down and pushed me down I think
02:34:08 get down and pushed me down I think that's what this is referring to I don't remember anything I don't remember Andrea getting arrested or privacy I didn't I don't remember that but I think the person that they're referring to
02:34:19 the person that they're referring to here about trying to Shield I think that was was when people pushed me to the floor I think that's right and you were arrested at this event when you yeah I
02:34:31 arrested at this event when you yeah I was yes um and um you were later we'll come back to it you were charged with offenses arising out of it but later um acquitted on appeal yeah I'll come back to that could we just take that report down um and just look very briefly at
02:34:48 down um and just look very briefly at another document written much later MPS 0747 45
02:34:50 0747 45 2 this is dated from August of 2002 can we zoom in um to the main body of the
02:35:07 text um and this is understood by the inquiry to be a letter um or a note written in 2002 by Andrew Kohl's hn2 looking back as it were at the events of the 5th of March of
02:35:20 events of the 5th of March of 1992 and the second main paragraph refers to approximately 30 to 40 activists attending a loud and animated protest is that closer to how you remember it yes yeah
02:35:34 remember it yes yeah absolutely um and it refers um a bit further on to a white stretched limousine pulling up at the ballroom entr entrance and two expensively dressed women getting out of the
02:35:53 car and then two flower bombs being thrown at two women does that ring any bells with you no I wouldn't I didn't see um just from where I was I didn't see anybody I never saw anyone coming in it was I
02:36:04 it was I was yeah I couldn't see like above people's
02:36:16 see like above people's shoulders the letter I won't read it all in but it goes on to describe Andrew Cole's receiving a blow to his head which turn out he says here to have been from the battery end of a police radio
02:36:29 from the battery end of a police radio do you recall him being injured at this event I I don't I don't remember him being there to be
02:36:46 honest could I ask you we can take that letter down now about the circumstances of your arrest so you've described you you remember some people shielding you what do you remember happening to you
02:36:51 you next um i' been pushed like the the railings that they had were the sort of
02:37:03 railings that they had were the sort of like the half height metal ones um and I was someone pulled me up cuz at this point I was still like I was trying to stand up because I was on I was on like my hands and knees and somebody pulled me up um like so my back was to the
02:37:19 me up um like so my back was to the railings and pulled me over so I got to like a balancing point and then as I I went over on my head so he let me go as I he pulled me over and then let me go so I'd fallen on the floor and the next
02:37:35 so I'd fallen on the floor and the next the next thing um was he'd put my arm my left arm up behind my back but had done
02:37:47 left arm up behind my back but had done it so much that I was on tiptoes this is why I didn't see where I'd gone because as he pushed his my arm up so much and like my head was back I didn't see I never saw where I went I didn't see what vehicle I got into I don't remember anything like apart from that you know it was like I thought he broken my arm at this point and so I don't I didn't
02:37:59 at this point and so I don't I didn't know who I was arrested with or any I don't remember anything sort of after that just the pain in my arm and then um being at the police station
02:38:14 then um being at the police station being in a cell and I think you you took yourself to Accidental emergency after you'd been released from police custody and you had torn ligaments in your shoulder elbow and wrist or something yeah I um but I thought he broke my arm so I asked to see a police
02:38:25 broke my arm so I asked to see a police surgeon when I was in um I think it was
02:38:37 surgeon when I was in um I think it was Western Central police station because I was really sure that like broken my arm um and yeah they got they got somebody that the guy that came out to see me came out in his evening suit he'd been at the ball um and came out and sort of
02:38:49 at the ball um and came out and sort of you know I was the demonstration you you know I you were demonstrating I was having my you know my I was at the ball and stuff and it like two paracetamol
02:39:01 and stuff and it like two paracetamol didn't examine me didn't like touch me and then left um so when eventually I got home um I had to drive I had to drive myself I had to change remember change trying to change gear with my right hand because he couldn't move my
02:39:19 right hand because he couldn't move my left arm um yeah and I took myself um to A and E and I got the torn ligaments in my shoulder my elbow and my wrist and I'm think you broke my collar bone the charges that you faced included assaulting a police officer is that right yes and you say in your witness
02:39:31 right yes and you say in your witness statement that the what you remember of the allegation specifically was that it was said You' punched a police officer with your right hand over your left
02:39:47 with your right hand over your left shoulder yes and you were also charged with a Fray yes and you denied that before the Magistrate's court you pleaded not guilty yes yeah it's physically impossible and you were convicted before the magistrates court but given a conditional discharge is that right yes so in fact the effect of the sentence
02:39:59 so in fact the effect of the sentence that you were given by the magistrates Court was that if you didn't get into any more trouble it would essentially go away yes but you Ness appealed your conviction is that right yeah I was angry he it's the first time that that
02:40:20 angry he it's the first time that that I'd been in court and the police officer had lied and his friend had lied and they you know it's exactly the same thing and I was so angry I wasn't you know even though I think my solicitor was like you know that's that's really sort of you know that's good because they told me I to expect a
02:40:37 good because they told me I to expect a custodial sentence and um and I I didn't and so they thought you know that was s of like suck it up that's you know that's that's quite good but I was just I couldn't quite get my head around it you know
02:40:49 you know but he lied you know I was I was it was I was incredulous um and I couldn't get I was angry as well and I couldn't get over that it's like but he lied you know it's not it wasn't a mistake he wasn't
02:41:03 not it wasn't a mistake he wasn't mistaken it was a pro it was properly he lied and so I was like I'm not no I'm not doing it so yeah I appealed and on that appeal you were found not guilty yes can we look at the reporting that
02:41:16 yes can we look at the reporting that Andrew Kohl's did around this time so MPS
02:41:17 MPS 074 294 first of all please it's a report of the 25th of March of
02:41:27 March of 1992 B2 B2 sir in your
02:41:42 bundle and this is a report about you uh Jessica and if we look at the uh substance at the bottom
02:41:49 please it describes you as an active hunt sabot and member of the London boots Action Group she is currently on bail for assault on police and AR Fray during the recent horse and Hounds ball
02:42:01 during the recent horse and Hounds ball at the grosner house Hotel she is due to appear at a Magistrate's court in connection with these charges where she is expected to plead not guilty that is all accurate information as I understand it based on your
02:42:21 as I understand it based on your evidence is yeah and how would hn2 have come to know that you were expected to plead not guilty when you appeared in court I think actually I was so angry I think I would have told anybody I was
02:42:36 think I would have told anybody I was not you I was yeah I went on a bit about it um because I was so like angry about it so I think I think I'd have told anyone that listened did he ever come for example to any consultations with you with your with a lawyer or anything of that nature
02:42:53 no okay can we take that down please and look at a later report MPS 0742
02:42:55 0742 251 B7 sir it's a report of the 5th of May so about six weeks on from the last
02:43:09 one um and it's described as a planning meeting Under The Heading nature of event um with 10 attending and then can we look please at the substance of what was reported
02:43:36 um it it reads um in this way animal rights activists from London and Su held this meeting at the home of privacy's parents to prepare the defense of privacy and Jessica for their forthcoming trial to be held at a Magistrate's court on charges relating
02:43:47 Magistrate's court on charges relating to the anti-hunt demonstration outside the horse and Hounds ball at groser House Hotel in March 19 1992 and then it lists it says of those
02:43:58 1992 and then it lists it says of those present a number of people including you stated their intention to give evidence for the
02:44:02 for the defense and firstly do you remember a meeting matching this discussion yes yeah I do and what was the purpose of the meeting as far as you were concerned I think it it was it might well have been me that asked for the meeting
02:44:19 been me that asked for the meeting because I didn't I didn't know like what where I'd been taken I knew where I'd gone over the fence but I don't remember like I don't know didn't know where the police man were was I didn't know where
02:44:32 police man were was I didn't know where they'd take me you know I've got no me I had no memory of what happened after that um so it was it was to to do with that um it wasn't it was not it was not it's not in the way that he said but I yeah I didn't
02:44:48 the way that he said but I yeah I didn't um you know I cuz I think at the point I think at the point point they recreated like the barrier with chairs to go like you went here and then because apparently they taken me right across in
02:44:59 apparently they taken me right across in front of people coming in which I I just don't remember but they showed me like where they taken me and where the police vans were but it wasn't to like that's just ridiculous to say that it was like a plan it was a planning meeting it
02:45:11 a plan it was a planning meeting it wasn't in terms of what you had been doing before your arrest were you able to remember that by yourself yes yeah it was the the part that I don't remember it was the P it was the pain it was as
02:45:26 it was the P it was the pain it was as soon as that happened I didn't I wasn't aware of of anything else all I can remember was like was walking on tiptoes that's all all that I can remember so I didn't know where I'd gone um or
02:45:39 didn't know where I'd gone um or anything but yeah before that um yeah we were sort of I think we were probably shouting like um I some anti- hunt sort of things I remember the Flower Bomb um well bag of flow going over and I
02:45:51 well bag of flow going over and I remember I remember who threw it and then I remember going like crawling about on my hands and knees going up and over the bars and then that is all I then remember is just a pain but so in terms of preparing your defense to
02:46:05 terms of preparing your defense to charges of a Fray which would have been the disorder and the throwing of the flower bomb presumably and assaulting a police officer did you need any of these people to help you to know what your
02:46:18 people to help you to know what your answer to those charges was going to be no no and none of them none I didn't have any any Witnesses so do you mean when you went to trial yeah yeah and it's you know that's I didn't I needed to know what had where I'd gone um or what had
02:46:30 had where I'd gone um or what had happened but you know there's no I didn't have any Witnesses that's why I was found guilty I had no Witnesses but I said what I told them what had
02:46:47 happened it's not contained in this report but in the witness statement of Andrew Kohl's to this inquir it's paragraph 150 for those who want the reference He suggests that the what was happening at this meeting was an attempt
02:47:00 happening at this meeting was an attempt to concoct concoct evidence or concoct a defense what do you say to that no no no I didn't need to I told I told
02:47:12 no no I didn't need to I told I told them what had happened um that was it in your witness statement we can bring it up if if if you want to look at it but you do say that one person ended up being a witness for you do you want to see the
02:47:21 see the paragraph yeah can I see the name who else was the who else what other names are
02:47:30 are there um I'm not sure that we have those immediately available I've my stat you if you do you have an unredacted version of your statement in front of you um I think so um I don't know so it's page
02:47:44 think so um I don't know so it's page 67 is where you 66 to 67 where you deal with this
02:47:52 [Applause] um so I think you know not to say the names that are redacted here they're not on here
02:48:01 anyway they're all redacted as
02:48:10 well um I don't know the I don't know the if I know the names then I can say but I can't remember off hand I didn't think anyone of them was but if I've said if
02:48:20 said if I've if I've said it in my statement I need I need to see what name all right if we have a look it's we'll have a look at what your statement says and then
02:48:32 at what your statement says and then perhaps we can assist you with the name so you don't give a name in your statement but at paragraph 6.16 about halfway down do you see the sentence it was simply to ascertain it was simply to ascertain what had happened that night yes see that Cole says we were
02:48:47 night yes see that Cole says we were there trying to concoct evidence but we weren't and only one person ended up being a witness for me oh okay yeah then then that's my yeah then some some one person did then but I can't remember offhand who I but yeah no this I would
02:49:02 offhand who I but yeah no this I would have said this more recently so yeah one person I think I'm being very ably assisted by somebody writing down a list of the names um I'm I'm not going to ask you to read any of them yeah no I won't
02:49:14 you to read any of them yeah no I won't say I won't say them and can I just yeah no I just I just it's quite difficult looking at a document where everything is all privacy it doesn't bring any bells understood bear with us one moment
02:49:30 okay what I'm going to hand you is a note via the chairman of four names these are the names that are in your witness statement and we'll see if we can get you a list of the names in the underlying
02:49:44 document can you just show that to the gem first please
02:49:58 so just those are the names that are privacy redacted at paragraph 6.15 at the top of page 67 do you see your witness statement says I note that MPS
02:50:08 MPS 07422 51 lists privacy privacy privacy and Joe Tex all of whom I remember being there those four Nam there is one name on there that was a witness yeah sorry
02:50:20 on there that was a witness yeah sorry I've forgotten all right do you want to just Mark that for us put a circle around the person who is a witness unless it was Joe Tex whose name is not privacy red no it wasn't him yeah sorry no I forgotten about
02:50:46 that we'll keep that record we can't say that on in a public hearing but we'll keep that record and make sure that everybody who needs to know knows which name you cired so one of the names
02:50:57 name you cired so one of the names listed um was somebody who you remember giving evidence for you yes yeah thank you yeah cuz there was nobody else was no one else is in anything so he was the only person that had seen something or that had seen my
02:51:13 arrest is that so we're just checking that that is one of the names in the document but and it is okay um so that person gave
02:51:29 it is okay um so that person gave evidence and that person was also at the meeting yes um was there any discussion with that person it's a it's a hymn I think I can say that yeah about the nature of the evidence that he could give for you no it would have been had he seen anything and if he'd seen it would he'd be a witness but if he didn't
02:51:45 would he'd be a witness but if he didn't there was no there was no asking anybody and I think um and he says himself that he said he didn't see anything wasn't asked to be a witness you know there's no
02:51:52 no it I wouldn't ask someone that hadn't seen something so like no in the way that he's suggesting that that happened it just
02:51:57 it just didn't had you instructed lawyers by this time by the time you were doing Court yes yeah and had your lawyers
02:52:08 Court yes yeah and had your lawyers suggested this meeting or was it just something that you had decided to do yourself it was nothing to do I don't think it was anything to do with the lawyers had you known that one that there was a police officer
02:52:19 there was a police officer either observing this or learning about it would you have carried on having the discussion um there was nothing to hide I mean maybe it wasn't you know maybe it it could have
02:52:33 wasn't you know maybe it it could have been well obviously it was construed in the wrong way but there was nothing to hide and it was there nothing privileged um stuff you know we also like the the parents were also um sabs and so and
02:52:45 parents were also um sabs and so and they actually like cooked for us all and that as well so it wasn't you know it wasn't just sort of for or this you know that was an important part of it because I just didn't know what what had happened
02:53:00 happened um and I remember that um actually Joe I think Joe was arrested as well at that point uh that night yes tax yeah tax sorry and yeah I think you say in your witness statement that you don't
02:53:11 witness statement that you don't actually remember hn2 being present at this meeting no I don't do you have a positive recollection either way that he was there that he was not there for example or is it just that you can't
02:53:22 example or is it just that you can't remember I just can't remember him being there but I also don't remember Walter being there either and and he is listed as being yeah
02:53:28 yeah yeah so no I think that's that's more like a a issue with with what I remember of it rather than saying he wasn't there it's just I don't remember him being there or
02:53:47 Walter thank you can we look different topic um at another report um it's MPS 07474
02:53:49 07474 38 it's dated the 4th of December
02:53:59 1992 b19 sir in your bundle thank
02:54:10 you that may be an incorrect reference sir I'll just
02:54:21 wait 4th of December 1992 it should be oh sorry can we have a look at the next page on the screen just to make sorry the next page rather than the first page oh sorry it's my mistake yes it's 23rd of March
02:54:32 1993 I think that may
02:54:36 be I've got the wrong reference in that
02:54:48 case sorry bear with me with me one moment I've got the wrong
02:55:19 reference could we try I'm sorry this may be wrong do one more try in case this is the correct reference 07 46517 on the 15th of December 1992 and if not I will have to abandon the point for now and can we go down please to the next
02:55:37 page no it's my error we'll have to come back to that point perhaps after we have a rule 10 break if I need to thank
02:55:44 you could we try then please MPS 0746 55
02:56:05 and to look at the substance Jessica it's 11th of august 19 93 so after you'd come back from France and can we look at the um substance of the H of the report sorry
02:56:21 um it's that privacy has left London and moved into a housing Cooperative in privacy um so it's about somebody else um but I want to draw your attention to the second paragraph in particular it
02:56:36 the second paragraph in particular it says privacy's former home at Jessica's South London address so the the stram address is now occupied um by an individual NM privacy and EAB you are described there so in
02:56:51 and EAB you are described there so in August 1993 as a frequent visitor to the the house having formed a romantic liazon with one of those individuals so does it follow from this in terms of the chronology that by August of
02:57:05 chronology that by August of 1993 your relationship with hn2 had come to an end and your new relationship had begun yes yeah I think so I don't yeah I can't be like 100%
02:57:19 can't be like 100% but yeah like around that sort of time so yes I I can't say that it's it's wrong so it's a matter of maybe 8 to 10 weeks between when you get back from France maximum back from France have
02:57:31 France maximum back from France have broken up with hn2 and are starting a new relationship that's the sort of time scale is that yeah I think so yes and it's here describing you as a frequent visitor to the house rather than a
02:57:42 visitor to the house rather than a resident so that might suggest that you entered the new relationship before you moved into your South London address again does that sound about right in
02:57:54 again does that sound about right in terms of the sequence of events yeah it could be I don't I don't have like I can't give you a definite answer but yeah
02:58:00 yeah it's yeah it yeah it could be yes the um report suggests that Andrea McAn was going was likely to move into the South London address as well in
02:58:16 the South London address as well in September again does that ring does that assist with your recollection at all that she moved in yeah she might yeah I thought maybe she was there beforehand but she may have been there beforehand
02:58:27 but she may have been there beforehand but yes or moved in afterwards and that it's really difficult because you know people's people stayed in other people's houses and stuff it wasn't always easy to know who actually live
02:58:46 to know who actually live there and in terms of your reaction um to this report learning about it now this is obviously a police report recording um a what's referred to here as a romantic liazon between you and somebody what's your reaction to learning that those
02:58:58 your reaction to learning that those aspects of your life were being reported on by
02:59:07 hn2 it's it's pointless at what purpose did it it serve it's just it seems a bit
02:59:15 um kind of nosy um and none of his business
02:59:17 business and you know I don't I don't understand I don't understand why I don't see what the point of it was
02:59:30 the point of it was really can we look at one more report um in a similar vein MPS 0746
02:59:46 546 and um this is a report from the 29th of March 1994 it's your B27 sir
02:59:57 um and we see it's a report um is it not with the subject your new partner as we've been referring to him at the South London
03:00:06 London address and you are described there as his girlfriend under Associates yeah if we look please at the body of the report um towards the bottom of that first page
03:00:24 of that first page um he is described there as awaiting the outcome of several court cases and the report says this as a result he has exceeded to pressure from his girlfriend Jessica to abstain from illegal Al activity and to your knowledge had your
03:00:38 activity and to your knowledge had your new partner been involved in illegal Al activity in 1993 and 1994 and no no and there's there's no I don't know what he's
03:00:48 what he's like that that's it there's no more there's no other suggestion of what he actually means um or I haven't seen anything so I don't I don't know if he's trying to refer to something specific I
03:01:01 trying to refer to something specific I don't know what so no I don't that's not right it goes on his that's your new partners recent animal rights activities have been limited to hunt and angling sabotage was your new partner involved
03:01:15 sabotage was your new partner involved in Hunt and angling sabotage yes yeah we both were
03:01:21 and was that the extent of your animal rights activity action if I put it that way yeah the height of it yes and it and like the regular sort of demos and and things as well um but yeah I don't this
03:01:36 things as well um but yeah I don't this is it's just it's also vague and I don't know if he's trying to refer to something specific but it's there's nothing it's just it's
03:01:48 nothing it's just it's just speculation with like no basis as far as I can see I can't think of anything that he could even try and suggest was an illegal activity it goes on to say this about you Jessica also seems to have lost
03:02:04 you Jessica also seems to have lost interest in illegal activity following the raid by police on Jessica's South London
03:02:06 London address firstly do you recall a police raid on the south London address yes I do and can you describe what happened from your point of view yes yeah this
03:02:21 from your point of view yes yeah this was I referred to it earlier um the aliu raid on the mafs place um and um saf far as it was it was some of the people that lived in our house that
03:02:36 the people that lived in our house that had they were part of the aliu we never were um so we were both that's why we were both at home at the time um and someone I think one or maybe two people it's a bit vague um were stopped and arrested and for some reason
03:02:49 arrested and for some reason um I I don't know whether it's I don't know whether it was um after finding out about Andy I don't know whether it was him that gave our address because somebody gave our address who didn't live there um and so we were we were
03:03:06 live there um and so we were we were raided and when you say raided what what did you experience um a knock at the door and like half a dozen um guys in hazmat suits with masks on and like a
03:03:20 hazmat suits with masks on and like a placement out the door and like police fans everywhere and they came in and lifted up the floorboards in some rooms and because we were um like he and I were the only people in so we had to
03:03:32 I were the only people in so we had to sort of observe the search as they went around the house um so yeah it was a few hours of them searching the house have you ever experienced anything like that
03:03:45 you ever experienced anything like that before no and how did you feel as it was happening um angry to be honest but angry because somebody gave her address who didn't live there um and it felt at the time it felt a bit
03:03:57 felt a bit suspicious um you know it hadn't it hadn't been like no one had agreed to you know people saying like this is you
03:04:08 you know people saying like this is you know to give this address and that so it always felt like there was something a bit suspicious about it um but you know
03:04:19 bit suspicious about it um but you know they things were broken like they broke some things um and took it took I mean took a lot of stuff um including Andrea's um computer
03:04:33 stuff um including Andrea's um computer with her dissertation on it which never worked again when it came back um lots of sabbin walkie-talkies which never worked again so a lot of things were taken and like and things were done to them and like when got them back they
03:04:46 them and like when got them back they were useless so it felt the whole thing felt a bit suspicious the report here that the inquiries attributed or certainly the intelligence
03:05:00 attributed or certainly the intelligence is attributed to um hn2 suggests that it caused you to lose interest in illegal activity were you interested in participating in or otherwise showing interest in uh participating in illegal activity before the raid took place no
03:05:13 activity before the raid took place no not at all we was I think at that point it was exactly the same as what we'd always done it was the um it was sabbin it was demos and you know this is just these are just words that are been put
03:05:28 these are just words that are been put in I think to make it look like we were you know we were serious Al activists when that wasn't the case did the raid have any impact on your animal rights activities at all no because we weren't doing anything
03:05:39 because we weren't doing anything illegal so it didn't it didn't interfere with you know the demos or the um sabbin so
03:05:51 so no thank you can we we go back to the um previous reference it was the correct reference it's MPS 0747
03:05:56 0747 438 uh your b19 sir what I admitted to mention was that it's page six that we need please this is a document that consists of a number of reports put
03:06:10 consists of a number of reports put together in one and the report I want to ask you about is this one dated the 4th of December of 1992
03:06:18 please um it is in fact a report about somebody
03:06:20 somebody else um but we see from the substance that she is described as a school friend of
03:06:31 of yours recently moved to brickton from Jessica's East London
03:06:42 address and I want to um draw your attention to um what he said although it's about her um it suggests she's a committed
03:06:55 her um it suggests she's a committed hunt sabot who engages in sabotaging the SAR Union and old SAR and bsto hunts um responsible for informing Al activists of the Intensive chicken farm raid in elad subsequently raided by them in the summer of
03:07:05 summer of 1992 could that be a reference to the great hooky Farm yes yeah it is and maintaining close uh contact with two activists who were probably responsible um were you
03:07:23 responsible um were you informed um the report doesn't suggest that it was you but were you ever informed about that raid the great hooky raid by somebody who was also a school friend of yours no not the the none of these people were school friends the
03:07:36 these people were school friends the person that I shared the house the first the East London address um we went to college together but not no that's wrong about the school friend I think the first two were maybe school friends but they weren't a school they weren't
03:07:50 they weren't a school they weren't school friends of mine I see so so the first two privacies might have been friends with each other I think they were yeah but but not with you no I mean I knew I I knew the person that this report is about um she and I were
03:08:05 report is about um she and I were friends didn't really know the other one um but I think they were school friends and that's that's wrong about me being a school friend but your evidence I understand it was it wasn't her who
03:08:16 understand it was it wasn't her who informed you about the great hooky farm raid no
03:08:23 raid no no is there any possibility that she she was someone who mentioned it to you and got you involved not to me no I don't know whether she mentioned anything to um Andy about it but I I found out from
03:08:34 um Andy about it but I I found out from him so no she wouldn't have been she may have been like further down the chain but she certainly didn't say anything to me thank you and then can we go over the page please to look at the next part of the
03:08:49 report um and what I want to look at in particular is is the final paragraph
03:08:54 please which says this privacy has not been involved in Alf activity herself but it is believed that she was due to take part in the aliu inspection of Renta kill on the 2nd of December
03:09:09 Renta kill on the 2nd of December 1992 and only her illness prevented her from taking part in his uh witness statement it's paragraph 206 for those who want the reference hn2 alleges that you were
03:09:24 reference hn2 alleges that you were involved in planning a Liberation raid um on rent to kill in Guilford um were you involved in
03:09:35 Guilford um were you involved in planning a Liberation raid on rent kill in Guilford no and I don't as far as I know like rent secure like a pest control people I don't understand why to raid I don't think they have animals I'm not sure I'm not sure what this is um
03:09:49 not sure I'm not sure what this is um about whether it it's the only place um it was it was near Guilford I think class is Guilford was the mafs place so whether this is confused with that but I don't understand why there be ra raid on a rent to kill place as far as I know
03:10:01 a rent to kill place as far as I know their their person control I don't think they have animals so I I don't really understand this and what about an aliu inspection of Renta kill were you ever
03:10:12 inspection of Renta kill were you ever aware of of that I didn't have anything to do with aliu it suggests this report suggests that it took place place on the 2nd of December
03:10:21 December 1992 do you know where you were I would have been in France the second of december2 so now I don't know about this at all I don't I I say I'm not sure the rent kill part of that is is right but
03:10:33 rent kill part of that is is right but no mean I was I was in France anyway I hadn't seen that bit thank
03:10:40 bit thank you just two relatively um short topics left from me um can I ask you about a couple of documents that were disclosed to you um which uh originate from your special Branch file so not reporting
03:10:53 special Branch file so not reporting that the inquir is attributed directly
03:11:04 that the inquir is attributed directly to hn2 Andrew Cole's but some documents that showed up on your file that were disclosed to you the first is MPS 074
03:11:06 074 939
03:11:14 please it's B13 sir in your bundle and what the inquiry understand stands this to be Jessica is the minute sheet to your file so recording the various contents of the special Branch
03:11:25 various contents of the special Branch file okay and can we look please at the first minute on the top of the left hand page it appears to indicate that your file was made up so created as the
03:11:40 file was made up so created as the inquir understands it on or about the first of September of 1992 now it follows I think from your evidence that by the time time your file was created you were already in a relationship with hn2 Andrew
03:12:02 calls and in in probably in France I think or certainly going to France if I wasn't there
03:12:12 already by the 1st of September 1992 as I understand your evidence you had been in you would have been have been involved in a number of hunt Saabs yes the only activity you would have been involved in you say properly described
03:12:24 involved in you say properly described as Alf activity is the great hooky Farm yes where the chickens were taken could we um just zoom back out please and uh zoom in uh on the bottom
03:12:38 please and uh zoom in uh on the bottom handwritten minute bottom of the first page
03:12:39 page please thank you and when I ask you this question uh Jessica you if you want you can have
03:12:50 Jessica you if you want you can have available to you a photograph that's at MPS
03:12:55 07495 I hope there's also a version for the chairman um unredacted because it's fully redacted on the system to protect your
03:13:03 your anonymity and that's a photograph that the inquiry also located on your special Branch file do you follow yes yeah I'm going to read this minute that is dated the 19th of October
03:13:14 the 19th of October 1992 and was signed by detective inspector hn 67 who was then the detective inspector in the SDS so in the squad that hn2 was serving in do you follow he was a manager of HD2 at the
03:13:29 follow he was a manager of HD2 at the time yes and he wrote this minute for the information of DS the name's redacted information from a secret and reliable source states that Jessica's photograph is now a poor likeness she
03:13:44 photograph is now a poor likeness she now has very short hair and is much less feminine in appearance Contin action as
03:13:56 feminine in appearance Contin action as at minute three um asked about this hn2 Andrew Cole says that the secret and reliable source there will be a reference to him giving that information and firstly how accurate is it to suggest that you by October 1992 had very short hair yeah no I didn't I
03:14:08 had very short hair yeah no I didn't I didn't and that's um the photos that I included so the ones of me in France in um in the December of 93 shows like my hair is like L 3/4 of the way down my
03:14:23 hair is like L 3/4 of the way down my back um and there's no way it could have that you know I didn't I just didn't I didn't have my haircut for a long long time I had really long hair the photograph that was on is was on your special Branch file that appears to have been what was being looked at are you
03:14:36 been what was being looked at are you able to date that do you know when that well I it looks I think I still got long hair yeah I have long hair um in there but um
03:14:51 no not really it's quite difficult to it's not a great it's not the greatest picture um but I mean it would have been it would have been like around sort of that time but you know I didn't in that time I didn't have my
03:15:03 didn't in that time I didn't have my haircut I never had it cut before I went to France um I had long hair um I got pictures of me with long hair when I was in France and the ones um when I went
03:15:14 in France and the ones um when I went back over so I hadn't have my haircut so this isn't this is just not right and what's your reaction to h& to having reported back that she now has very
03:15:27 reported back that she now has very short hair and is much less feminine in appearance um I mean I I don't see the point I mean what was meant to be like offensive I I don't know but
03:15:38 be like offensive I I don't know but also I wasn't even in you know I wasn't in the country at the time so I don't I just I don't really understand it um and and it's I mean frankly like two or
03:15:50 and it's I mean frankly like two or however however many pages it is like special Branch report on on me have my haircut I think is it's just is a bit pathetic you know I
03:16:04 pathetic you know I really you know I mean come on um yeah I don't it's just ridiculous can we take that document down I just want to ask you about one more um that was found on your file MPS 074
03:16:15 074 953
03:16:22 953 three C2 and to be clear this is not a report that the inquiry considers emanated from the SDS but it does appear to contain information that may have been reported by the SDS to follow so
03:16:36 been reported by the SDS to follow so put together within special Branch not within the SDS itself as the inquiry understands it but about you and can I just um ask you about um a couple of aspects of this um firstly uh
03:16:48 couple of aspects of this um firstly uh slightly counterintuitively can we look at paragraph 8 on the second
03:16:58 page um so this a report in October about a month after the files open says this that you first came to the notice of this branch in June 1992 uh when secret information received reported that she is an animal
03:17:11 reported that she is an animal activist and then it gives your Associates and suggests that you frequented the hope field Animal Sanctuary in Brentwood which is in Essex
03:17:28 Essex um first coming to the notice of special branch in June 1992 again after you had met hn2 Andrew Kohl is that right yes yeah and um when you were already in a relationship with him
03:17:44 yes did you frequent an animal sanctuary in Brentwood and essic no never been there
03:17:53 um you were shown this report also before you gave your witness statement and you pointed out that it's asserts that you didn't have a passport yes it's October 1992 were you working in France by the time this report was written
03:18:11 yeah all right thank you we can um sorry can I just can you have a look at the the top the first page again yes um and yeah I mean I just the noticed there failed to trace my birth details in St Catherine's house
03:18:32 um yeah I I hadn't sort of um I not noticed that before I just yeah I wondered whether um I wonder why um or the fact that they try that they tried to chase like my birth
03:18:41 birth details um I don't know whether that was I know they did it for like the stealing dead children's identities but I didn't
03:18:55 dead children's identities but I didn't um yeah why would they would have chosen to like look for my details whether it had anything to do with me being adopted sorry that's just aide but I just noticed sort of that can we just clarify Jessica's obviously a cipher that we're using to protect your true
03:19:09 that we're using to protect your true identity the name the real name that you were using in the early 1990s was that the do you know whether that's the name that you were given at Birth or the name you were given given upon being adopted
03:19:21 you were given given upon being adopted it wasn't the name I was given at Birth but it was um I my birth certificate has my doesn't have the name I had as a baby on it it
03:19:34 have the name I had as a baby on it it has my like my actual name on my parents name all right thank you can we take that down F final topic um Jessica I just want to to um ask you about um your reaction
03:19:47 about um your reaction really to discovering that hn2 was an undercover officer you explain in your witness statement that you found out
03:19:58 witness statement that you found out early in February 2017 from Paul grait Who You'd known from happening in his inter animal rights is that correct yes and he alerted you I think to a Facebook page concerning articles about undercover officers having been in the group is that the way that it came about
03:20:15 group is that the way that it came about and you then saw a picture of h& 2 yes how did you feel when you came across that picture [Music]
03:20:19 [Music] um I mean it was probably about 10 minutes like I found out that what Spy
03:20:38 minutes like I found out that what Spy cops were you know the name and what has happened and then sort of 10 minutes after that to then see his picture um yeah it I couldn't um I couldn't quite get my head around it in some in
03:20:49 quite get my head around it in some in some ways it I mean the whole thing was like I just found it quite like ridiculous um but also it also made it made a lot of of sense of of our relationship you know there were things I didn't doubt it you
03:21:03 there were things I didn't doubt it you know I know s some people when they hear about them you know don't take some convincing but I didn't it suddenly there was a lot of things that that made sense um and yeah it
03:21:17 sense um and yeah it just there's there's no there's no feeling sort of like it you know it's like huge parts of my
03:21:33 like huge parts of my life I didn't have the control and the agency over that I thought I did and that I've
03:21:33 that I've [Music]
03:21:35 [Music] been sort of steered
03:21:48 been sort of steered um and manipulated you know manipulated into a relationship that you know
03:21:55 you know wasn't wasn't really what I wanted but I you know I went along with and you know the worst and the worst part
03:22:11 um the worst part was my age um to know that
03:22:12 that at at that age
03:22:24 someone so much older um not who he said he was um that it just made it made me feel
03:22:26 feel disgusting that it's just it is it's disgusting you know it's so much so much older you know I'd
03:22:40 I'd had I'd had issues you know and just the exploitation um me yeah it's something I haven't
03:22:56 um yeah something I'm not I can't get over I can't I can't I can't um come to terms with it properly um
03:23:12 um come to terms with it properly um yeah I won't take you through all of the details but you set out in your witness statement page um 46 um and onwards the impact that it's had on your um mental
03:23:24 your um mental health um and I think that continues is that right yes to this day
03:23:36 yeah can I ask you this the um so you've given an account of a relationship with Andrew koh's hn2 known to you as um Andy van at the time which he has denied in his witness statement and
03:23:52 statement and publicly how do you feel about the denials that he has made it just it exacerbates everything because at the same time I feel like I'm trying I'm trying to prove that I'm not
03:24:06 trying I'm trying to prove that I'm not lying you know I'm telling the truth why I don't know why he why anyone would would want to know offense but would want to do this you know I've had to sit here I've had to completely humiliate myself
03:24:24 you know to to try to try and prove I'm not lying I'm not lying about it why would I um so it's made it so much more difficult and you know the fact of of
03:24:36 difficult and you know the fact of of who of who he he is and his position you know when I found out he was um like a conservative counselor and you know in another position of power and
03:24:49 know in another position of power and that's the thing is you know when I was a teenager he had the power that I didn't have and he completely abused it and the thought that he's he's then he's in that same position of power again he could do it he could do it again to
03:25:01 could do it he could do it again to someone else and it felt my like my responsibility to to warn people to tell them what he's like um so so what he did that's why I was you
03:25:17 so so what he did that's why I was you know I went up how many times to Peter brought and um put leaflets out just to tell people what he did when he was like undercover
03:25:31 what he did when he was like undercover and just to war to warn people because I don't want anyone else to feel the way that I have felt since finding
03:25:38 out and and if people up there you know friends of his telling me I'm a liar he did nothing wrong and I should just leave him alone and it's I feel like I'm fighting I'm
03:25:49 and it's I feel like I'm fighting I'm fighting all the time to try and prove that I'm not lying um yeah it's made it it's made it a lot a lot harder sorry don't be sorry it's all
03:26:02 harder sorry don't be sorry it's all right just those are all the questions that I want to ask you I haven't been notified of any rule 10 questions I'm looking
03:26:09 looking around I'm not seeing any indication that there are any so on that basis I will sit down um and if there's any reexamination no Miss
03:26:20 reexamination no Miss Gilroy I don't have anything further I want to say unless there's anything you want to say no I just like to go please yes of course you may um thank you for
03:26:41 yes of course you may um thank you for attending today and giving evidence in circumstances that I know uh are not easy for you and that I aware is a considerable understatement I know that uh yesterday Arrangements were unsettled and that increased your difficulty uh thank you
03:26:55 increased your difficulty uh thank you for surmounting them and giving evidence as clearly as you have done okay thank you right we will resume tomorrow at 10:00 yes all
03:27:15 right
03:32:14 e e