Morning session featuring Jessica's emotional testimony about inquiry trauma and criticism of dead children's identity theft practices, followed by extensive testimony from HN2 Andrew Coles covering sexual conduct expectations, deceased children's identities, Emily Johns incident, DCS Potter's racism, Stephen Lawrence intelligence requirements, and his infiltration of peace, anarchist, and animal rights movements including violent hunt sabotage groups and founding role in Earth First UK.
00:33:26 e e
00:34:03 today's proceedings are going to be live streamed uh subject to a 10-minute delay those with electronic devices may use them to report what is going on in the hearing room to the outside world but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're reporting uh
00:34:16 the event that they're reporting uh recording devices may not be used to record or
00:34:24 record or photograph Sir Mr low and tall is going to call Jessica yes Mr LOL thank you very much
00:34:25 very much sir Jessica you gave evidence on Thursday is there anything else you would like to say um yes um a couple of things um I was too emotionally
00:34:38 things um I was too emotionally exhausted on Thursday to um to say the
00:34:49 exhausted on Thursday to um to say the things that I I wanted to so appreciate the time um to say them now um I found the um inquiry very um
00:35:01 [Music] been sort of quite damaging um as a CP and like the other CPS um I want to engage and to to help because I think
00:35:15 engage and to to help because I think basically we need to know the truth um but I've worried about um of the the people coming in the next tranches because I've I found this very very difficult and I don't think that it's got a trauma based approach and there's a lot of people that I love and care
00:35:29 a lot of people that I love and care about in the next sort of tranches and I don't want anyone to have to feel the way that I've felt during this um and um another thing um there there
00:35:41 um and um another thing um there there was mention um on Thursday about my um reference file which I haven't still haven't received like a lot of other CPS and I wonder whether there's um at some point I might see that um and um one thing that I would like to
00:36:00 um and um one thing that I would like to um to raise and that is um it's about hn who's um attitude towards the um abing of deceased children's identity in the Trac craft manual um for instance using
00:36:21 Trac craft manual um for instance using the words like um suitable expers and a deceased child or young person with a fairly Anonymous name whose untimely demise was unspectacular um finding the respiratory status of the family and assuming squatters rights over their identity um deeply deeply offensive and
00:36:35 identity um deeply deeply offensive and I know um I mean myself and my family we are the family of a dead child and I know there's been other um CPS that have also um that are within the families the
00:36:49 also um that are within the families the category f um families that um that have mentioned have brought up the same um phrases particularly that they found as offensive um I'd also like to say um hn2 says to avoid infant deaths or people
00:37:06 says to avoid infant deaths or people over 16 and one can avoid the problems to some extent by using the birth details of an adopted person who died as a child and who assumed the adopted parents identity prior to death this perfectly describes my
00:37:23 death this perfectly describes my brother um we know that the fields the new field officers were trained and mentored by the previous field officers um hn 2's cover story was that he was
00:37:36 um hn 2's cover story was that he was adopted um I didn't know this when um at the time and I don't know whether this is something that he decided after meeting me or my parents um one of my Witnesses one of the witnesses um recalls him mentioning this in front of my
00:37:47 my parents um but the officers that followed him were um Jim boiling whose backstory was that he was adopted and
00:37:59 backstory was that he was adopted and also Mark Jenner who's apparently his father was killed by a drink driver um given how amusing H2 seems to find the using of dead children's identities and how he seems to have used
00:38:14 identities and how he seems to have used so much of my background um I would like to ask the inquiry to find out and tell me if my brother's identity was actually used by um another
00:38:27 used by um another officer um I had to ask my parents for my
00:38:28 my brother's birth name because I didn't
00:38:39 brother's birth name because I didn't know it um they were old and sick at the time and obviously it's quite difficult to explain to them why I I needed to know um they unfortunately never received any answer to that question before they
00:38:52 before they died but I would really like to know whether that was um whether his my brother's identity was used um and lastly the much Metropolitan Police have accepted that my relationship with hn2 happened um I put the letter in submitted it in my
00:39:06 the letter in submitted it in my evidence from them where they admitted it um accepted that it happened apologize and settled the case um they don't dispute it happened the only person that disputes that it happened is hn2 and he is a
00:39:24 liar thank you Jessica I'm going to give you a chance now to just double check you've said everything you would like to say yes thank you thank you very much Jessica and thank you very much sir I have no further questions can I um answer two of the
00:39:39 questions can I um answer two of the questions that you raised uh the inquiry is not going to search for your reference file if you want to do that you will have to do it directly with the Metropolitan Police um as far as your brother's
00:39:53 Police um as far as your brother's identity is concerned if you can uh if you have not already done so tell the inquiry his full name the inquiry will be able to tell you whether it has information that his name was used by an undercover officer right I'll make sure
00:40:14 undercover officer right I'll make sure I think we have but I'll make sure do it again thank you thank you uh does that conclude all that you want to say yes yes yes sorry may I just interject briefly just to let Jessica know that apparent we have disclosed everything that we found on you on the registry file that's information we just received
00:40:30 file that's information we just received from from Miss Gara so we have looked at the registry file and we have disclosed everything we found there forgive me you brought me up to date I hadn't realized that uh I was speaking of of uh the general approach to the inquiry that we're it's not within my terms of
00:40:42 we're it's not within my terms of reference to explore the registry files of everybody um unless it's necessary to enable me to fulfill my terms of reference but you've heard the answer so um you at least have one of your two
00:40:59 um you at least have one of your two questions answered yes yeah thank you then I will rise to enable uh Andrew koh's to be brought in to give evidence and to for the everything to be set up for that to
00:41:26 occur
00:47:55 e e
00:48:54 let
00:49:08 repeat after me I swear by almighty God I swear by almighty God that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank
00:49:28 you Mr bar thank you sir could you tell the inquiry your full name please Andrew Wallace Jardine Kohl's are the contents of your witness statement dated the 20th of April
00:49:37 of April 2022 true and correct to the best of
00:49:48 2022 true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief yes they are I'd like to start with some questions about how you developed your cover identity before uh deploying you did not use the surname of a deceased child as I understand your
00:50:03 a deceased child as I understand your your written evidence that's correct but you did use first names and other aspects of a deceased child's identity correct and that was a departure from the then approved practice yes what
00:50:21 the then approved practice yes what discussions did you have with uh DCI gray about
00:50:28 that I think I decided on my own that I would use a a family name as my surname I don't believe I spoke to him about that uh in your postop postop
00:50:39 about that uh in your postop postop debrief you describe ignoring uh DCI gray on that point were you if you did not speak to him being deliberately
00:51:00 not speak to him being deliberately disobedient you could put it that way uh cover identities and cover Legends were examined and checked before officers deployed weren't they that's correct did the fact you were not using the surname of a deceased child not emerge at that
00:51:15 stage I was using my family name as my as my cover name at that time so it didn't actually come up in conversation did your did you therefore deploy with
00:51:29 did your did you therefore deploy with your DCI believing that you were using a deceased child's identity when you were only using a partial identity I was using my family name as my surname and he would have been aware of that yes how would he have been aware of that it would have been on all the
00:51:43 of that it would have been on all the documentation that I um obtained in my cover
00:51:45 cover name but how would he have been aware specifically that it was not the surname of a deceased child it would clearly have been different to the name on the birth
00:52:01 different to the name on the birth certificate that um I used as my initial um identity before I replaced the surname with my family name and what was his reaction to that I don't remember um discussing it with
00:52:21 him could I ask you when you were looking for a deceased child's identity to at least borrow uh from in part an adopt in
00:52:29 adopt in part were you looking for a child who was who had died not in infancy and before the age of 16 that's correct yes and were you looking for a fairly Anonymous name a very common surname was was what we were looking for yeah and were you looking
00:52:43 looking for yeah and were you looking for a natural or otherwise un remarkable cause of death correct uh did you check whether the child's family was still
00:52:54 still alive I checked the addresses that I had and the family were no longer there did you visit the area where the child grew up
00:53:05 grew up no did you obtain a birth certificate yes and you adopted the date of birth of someone who was younger than you
00:53:16 someone who was younger than you actually were yes about four years younger yeah why did you do that that was common uh practice to find someone slightly younger than your own age but close enough why
00:53:28 age but close enough why I I don't know that that was the
00:53:39 procedure uh was there when you were developing uh your Legend and preparing to deploy any written guidance available no was there any written guidance at all about how to create an
00:53:50 guidance at all about how to create an identity I don't remember it now we've had some evidence from previous office es for example uh Bob Lambert who said that they do recall some gut written
00:54:08 that they do recall some gut written guidance are you sure there was none no I just I can't remember that there was or
00:54:10 or not what guidance were you given formally or informally orally or in writing in in any way at all about
00:54:26 writing in in any way at all about sexual relationships in your undercover identity it was not to take place who did that come from Martin
00:54:35 gray you had mentors in the shape of Bob Lambert and hn9 just one second
00:54:48 sure
00:54:57 correct uh what did Bob Lambert say to you on the subject of sexual relationships or sexual activity uh in your undercover identity I don't remember any such conversation would you have remembered it if he had said something to you uh about sexual
00:55:14 said something to you uh about sexual matters I don't remember something so difficult to answer that question and uh did he say anything about forming close relationships in your undercover identity I don't know whether he did no
00:55:29 identity I don't know whether he did no but the very purpose of the role was to form close relationships with people did you ask either of your mentors uh about how to deal with
00:55:43 mentors uh about how to deal with members of the opposite sex whilst you were deployed under cover I don't remember such a conversation was it a question that ever crossed your mind before you deployed
00:55:59 I can remember a conversation with sorry
00:56:13 just hn 86 and what did hn 86 say um that if I needed to find a girlfriend that one would be found for me from another officer
00:56:35 and how did that conversation arise I think it was before I went out into the field that it was sort of if it's needed it's
00:56:40 available did you initiate the conversation or did hn 86 gosh um probably him but I'm not sure I
00:56:51 um probably him but I'm not sure I remember and what else can you remember about the conversation
00:56:59 not very much I'm afraid well presumably there would be some runup to the proposition that you could ask uh for another officer uh to back you
00:57:15 up I'm really not sure I can remember I'm guessing it's to do with tradecraft but um I do remember that particular conversation about being able to find someone in support if was required presumably the Preamble must have been um that there may come a time when it's
00:57:39 um that there may come a time when it's difficult for you to maintain your cover identity if you are avoiding all sexual contact is that the sort of [Music]
00:57:43 [Music] Preamble I'm afraid I don't I can't remember I can't help you I'm
00:57:51 sorry did you speak to your wife at all about what was going to happen when you deployed into activist groups pretending to be a younger man than you actually were yes uh did you or her raise the
00:58:09 were yes uh did you or her raise the question of the potential for sexual activity no it was more to do with safety than than that sorry more to do with safety risk I'd like to be clear about your evidence to what extent did you
00:58:25 evidence to what extent did you consider that you might have to prepare yourself
00:58:26 yourself to
00:58:27 to deal with um sexual
00:58:38 sexual advances or resisting sexual Temptation whilst
00:58:50 deployed we must have had conversations about it when I was um in the back office with field officers there must have been conversations like that
00:59:02 um it was a the sort of problem that you would expect to arise being in close um contact with um activists who maybe had um a more liberal attitude towards things such as that I can remember very
00:59:16 things such as that I can remember very little about that time but I'm I'm sure we had those conversations but I I I can't be very specific I'm afraid you've just adverted to more liberal
00:59:26 liberal attitudes what was your state of mind by which I mean how did you think that female activists would behave sexually when you were
00:59:45 deployed I'm all I can refer to is Li libertarian values that I was expected to find out in as a Libertarian Anarchist in that field do you mean that you thought you were going to be
00:59:56 you thought you were going to be deploying into a promiscuous environment that's not a term I was expecting no no
01:00:07 um the usual strictures of of marriage and of courtship and all those sort of things were were largely irrelevant that's the sort of thing I would uh I would suggest I was thinking I'm struggling a little bit to understand quite what those two L
01:00:23 understand quite what those two L stances mean put together right did you think you were going into a sexually permissive environment
01:00:35 it depends where you define what is permissive and what is normalized um Behavior it's really difficult to clarify my my view about my own um views about relationships were different to those that were in that group that's certainly true whether you would describe it as permissive or just
01:00:47 would describe it as permissive or just libertarian is is a matter of language I think well yes and I would like to get past the semantics could you just tell
01:00:59 past the semantics could you just tell tell us in your own words please how you thought female activists in the groups you are going to deploy into would behave
01:01:01 behave sexually
01:01:04 sexually um I think it was more that the certainly the animal rights groups that I was involved in were very much a female sort of um dominant um area and that women were largely um taking the
01:01:16 that women were largely um taking the lead in a lot of the activity so that women were it's more of a feminist if you like um environment do you mean by that including
01:01:32 that including sexually yeah yes exactly yeah and what what did you do having uh thought that before you deployed what did you do about
01:01:34 about that I don't understand the question sorry well if you think uh you are going to deploy into an environment um take your pick of words promiscuous
01:01:45 your pick of words promiscuous libertarian permissive uh or as you've
01:01:56 libertarian permissive uh or as you've described where the woman might take the lead um what were your reflections on
01:02:04 that I think the way I prepared was to make myself as unattractive as possible and to
01:02:09 and to um not to get involved to be very sort of passive
01:02:17 um not to be um a dominant character a dominant personality if you
01:02:26 like was there anything written into your Legend to deter sexual activity undercover
01:02:35 um I did have um if you like a psychological um defense in that I'd had a it's completely false but in my Legend was to have had um an unfortunate relationship
01:02:48 have had um an unfortunate relationship a fleeting one where a child had um come about as a result of that relationship and that I was unable to see that child and I was
01:02:52 and I was rather um cut up and and upset about that sort of thing and so relationships for me were uncomfortable and when was that part of
01:03:03 uncomfortable and when was that part of your Legend developed quite early on um I had a photograph of a child that came from one of my wife's friends who'd had that child and used that as my own
01:03:23 child were there any rumors before you deployed about Bob Lambert's sexual conduct
01:03:24 conduct undercover no
01:03:36 did you speak to John dyes before you deployed yes and what did he tell you on the subject of sexual activity or dealing with members of the opposite sex whilst undercover I don't remember that
01:03:48 conversation did you speak to hn 87
01:04:18 yes and what did he say on the subject he didn't say anything on the subject as far as I are you sure of that no as far as I remember not I don't remember can I take it from one of your earlier answers that you did not discuss with the then Mrs koh's
01:04:29 with the then Mrs koh's um uh that there might you might be deploying into a group which you thought would have very different sexual values to your
01:04:46 own we had very Frank discussions about the whole thing I would imagine we talked about it but I'm afraid I can't
01:04:56 remember can't remember whether you did or did not talk about it or what the precise content was yeah I can't remember the precise content what was a gist
01:05:01 gist please uh
01:05:13 gosh what I can remember is is her concern about me being followed away getting back home about the being compromised about um bumping into activists
01:05:22 activists together I don't remember any anything about um sexual conduct you were recently married and yes trying for a child or about to try trying to start a family yeah
01:05:43 yeah is it right that DCI gray uh and uh the detective inspector at the time met Mrs Kohl's before you
01:05:52 deployed was somebody did from the office I'm pretty sure it was him yes were you present yes at what was said I have no idea I just can't remember it it was very very Frank about the the time I would be doing that I'd
01:06:06 the the time I would be doing that I'd be away from home those sort of things but I can't tell you the detail was anything said on the topics of either sex or emotional intimacy with activists I don't remember it would you remember it if it had
01:06:21 it would you remember it if it had been I can't answer the question because I don't remember it
01:06:32 can we now move to your targeting strategy and have up from File 2 tab [Music]
01:06:33 [Music] B17 document 726
01:06:38 726 959
01:06:48 please if we go to the next page please this is um your targeting strategy it's written by detective inspector h 86 can you help us with uh whether uh
01:07:04 86 can you help us with uh whether uh you had any input into this strategy or whether it was simply presented to you
01:07:56 I remember the uh the strategy from what I remember I was primarily um going to be dealing with the animal Liberation Front animal rights animal liberationist movements um but then the GF War started and there was no coverage on um
01:08:07 and there was no coverage on um non-aligned activists who were involved in pacifist um extremist demonstrations and so forth so it changed while I was in the back office to cover that area
01:08:20 in the back office to cover that area and so I had to rethink some of my um Legend to fit around that particular area that doesn't answer my question my question was essentially aiming at were you involved and consulted in the
01:08:38 you involved and consulted in the development of this document or was it simply presented to you yes it was it was iterative between us yes and as you rightly say because of the Gulf War there was a a change of the
01:08:49 the Gulf War there was a a change of the original plan and you deployed initially into peace groups yes uh but the if we move to the Third uh paragraph we'll see that in the medium term you were to
01:09:02 that in the medium term you were to concentrate on the task of identifying the next generation of Al activists within or affecting London yes and is the phrase Next Generation being used
01:09:17 the phrase Next Generation being used because Bob Lambert and John dyes had gone before you and identified um a lot of people who were considered Alf activists I I guess so yes there's a a constant
01:09:31 I I guess so yes there's a a constant renewal of of activism as people come into the movement yeah was there any special Branch or SDS definition of an Alf
01:09:45 definition of an Alf activist well there were several depending on um who you talk to uh the one I I think I prefer is someone who's prepared to take part in illegal
01:09:56 who's prepared to take part in illegal direct action to further animal rights causes which involve criminal activity is that the working definition that you applied in practice exactly yeah but my question was was there a an official special Branch or SDS
01:10:09 official special Branch or SDS definition I I think that was what I gave I'm pretty sure that's one but be mind I've worked on that desk before so I think that's where that comes from are we talking here about a written formal
01:10:28 we talking here about a written formal definition or are we talking about um a practice that has just grown up oh gosh um I'm sure it's informal
01:10:45 documentation and you were specifically um going to Target Mr Lane as a way of bolstering and establishing your credibility within the animal rights movement that's right yes and Hunt sabotage was something that it was that you were going to do
01:11:00 it was that you were going to do initially to establish your background for credibility purposes yes but not something uh that it was envisaged that you were going to do in the longer term that's right
01:11:14 yes can we take that down now and move to your
01:11:19 to your deployment it's right isn't it that you attended various meetings of Gulf War
01:11:30 attended various meetings of Gulf War resistors in order to gain intelligence about forthcoming protests at RF upper haford and high Wickam yes were you at a demonstration in Parliament Square on the 15th of February
01:11:50 1991 I believe that's in my statement yes and is it right that this was mass peaceful protest yes
01:12:02 you then uh report on a demonstration at Raf fairford which took place on the 17th of February
01:12:10 1991 I can call up the report if you want to see it but uh yes you were present weren't you yes and again that was a protest but a little bit more
01:12:22 was a protest but a little bit more militant wasn't it yes and according to your report there were six arrests were you able to provide any advanced
01:12:37 were you able to provide any advanced intelligence about that that assisted policing or or was your contribution essentially your post INF your post action
01:12:39 action report I I don't have a document before me to prove that I would have put prior notice in but I would have put prior notice in in of where they were going
01:12:53 notice in in of where they were going and the intention so that that could be reported to the um force on the ground that might be policing that demonstration so I don't have it in front of me that's normally what I would have
01:12:59 have done was this a widely publicized protest I'm sure it was yeah yeah and we can assume you were far from the only source of intelligence
01:13:10 source of intelligence absolutely uh you went to as I understand it a national Gulf War demonstration on the 2nd of March
01:13:22 demonstration on the 2nd of March 1991 would it also be right that that was well publicized and your your intelligence would be but one source yes I was reporting purely on the group I was with who had perhaps more um direct
01:13:36 was with who had perhaps more um direct action in mind which group was that that was the the Gul War resistors the nonviolence resistance network was another name for them and then they became Arrow active resistance to the roots of War uh at the march in uh the
01:13:51 roots of War uh at the march in uh the national march on the 2nd of March were they involved in direct action or were they simply participating in a peaceful protest predominantly peaceful protest um Dian was a common
01:14:13 thing you then report uh on in on the 16th of March you go back you go back to fairford new report on a preparatory meeting held at the peace pledge unions Day School can you recall
01:14:28 unions Day School can you recall that not sure now I could let's pull up from volume Five please tab C6 document
01:14:49 2108 uh you'll see this is a report which we've attributed to you um as in derived from your intelligence dated the 5th of March 19 1991 and you will see at paragraph 2 what it says about the event itself
01:15:17 yeah yes can you recall attending that event I clearly did but my memory of it is very very uh fleeting uh paragraph three gives an assessment uh of the forthcoming event saying there's still a possibility that a small group of
01:15:30 possibility that a small group of protesters may attempt to enter the base and demand to be arrested but if we go to paragraph four uh we'll see uh that that is directed at the future by this stage the Gulf War had finished hadn't it that's
01:15:44 Gulf War had finished hadn't it that's right that's the the transition between the gwr to arrow and you are providing Intelligence on what the Gulf War resistors have in
01:15:55 on what the Gulf War resistors have in mind for the future they're not going to pack up and go home they're going to continue that's right yes and as you say they become arrow and you provided various pieces of advanced intelligence
01:16:10 various pieces of advanced intelligence about what Arrow were going to do that's correct for example at the national Exhibition Center on the 15th of May 1991 yeah and a die in on the Ann first
01:16:25 1991 yeah and a die in on the Ann first anniversary of the start of the Gulf War that's right can can I move now to a report about uh Arthur Harris's statue volume six uh please Tab c149
01:16:49 22102 and then at page eight it's underscore 008 I'm being told
01:17:06 you this um if the page before please thank you this is an event performer again which we've attributed uh as being based on your intelligence dated the 24th of May 0
01:17:20 intelligence dated the 24th of May 0 about an event uh on the 24th of May 1992 and and if we look at the bottom at the main
01:17:31 the main paragraph the intelligence that's being reported five days before the event is
01:17:41 reported five days before the event is Arrow has arranged this demonstration to protest at the unveiling of a statue by hm Queen Mother to air Chief Marshall Sir Arthur Harris head of arf fmer command due to take place on Sunday the 31st of May
01:17:53 31st of May 1992 yeah um you then enclos some leaflets
01:17:55 leaflets would it be right that this is an event that would also have been publicized and leaflet circulated in advance I don't know how broadly they
01:18:07 advance I don't know how broadly they would have been circulated but certainly they were produced yes that's right put another way is this a sort of thing that ordinary special Branch tactics would have detected in any event it's possible
01:18:21 event it's possible yeah uh if we could take that uh down now please uh swords into plow shares would would it be right to think that
01:18:33 would would it be right to think that this is the militant end of the peace movement and there is certainly some evidence that they were prepared to do considerable criminal damage
01:18:46 considerable criminal damage yes we can only find a report which dates from 1993 um uh we can bring it up it's on Volume 7 tab 223
01:19:10 7467 it's a a a group report and if we go to if we go past the minute sheet to the start of the
01:19:21 report 8th of February 1993 you will see it's a a group report on swords into plow
01:19:26 plow shares would it be fair to conclude that this was long after your close involvement with the peace movement
01:19:37 involvement with the peace movement certainly yes I've moved on by then so I think it's some somewhat historical Recollections from me and in the absence of any other reporting can you help us with whether you were actually able to produce any
01:19:52 you were actually able to produce any useful intelligence about swords into plowshares whilst you were in infiltrating the peace movement I I did provide that information yeah how did you provide
01:20:08 you provide it probably by telephone if there's not a report without naming any names yeah what intelligence can you recall reporting um two individuals were interested in taking part in that level of direct action and I reported on two
01:20:21 of direct action and I reported on two of them one of whom later was arrested for um the activity that sought into ples R for as I'm understanding your
01:20:33 ples R for as I'm understanding your answer you gave some reporting that two individuals were prepared to commit criminal damage but not about any specific not a specific event no that's right no specific plans
01:20:45 right no specific plans no uh can we take that down now please I want to zoom out and look at a few
01:21:00 want to zoom out and look at a few examples of your reporting which seem to be on a theme can we start start please with uh volume 6 tab 127 730
01:21:16 967 if we go to page two we'll see that this is uh an up toate and information Prof forer about an individual it's dated the 27th of April 92 we understand this to be based on your intelligence
01:21:30 your intelligence the person concerned was female 5'4
01:21:32 5'4 slim uh had long jet black unkempt hair could we go to page three please um in fact we'll need to start
01:21:45 please um in fact we'll need to start the paragraph at the bottom of page two see paragraph that starts at the bottom
01:21:56 see paragraph that starts at the bottom of page two she has now fallen out with the leadership of Earth first UK at privacy and now only visits these premises to collect her unemployment
01:22:09 premises to collect her unemployment benefit check she has recently formed a romantic liaison with fellow squatter privacy and with the return of some stability to her private life she intends to become more active in animal rights issues despite her good
01:22:20 rights issues despite her good intentions privacy is not considered to be a committed activist by fellow campaigners due to her her irregular involvement that is nevertheless regarded with some affection by many because of her Pleasant nature and good
01:22:38 because of her Pleasant nature and good looks why were you reporting on the good looks of a female
01:22:45 activist difficult to be absolutely clear on on the way that intelligence um was gathered but I guess it's reported speech from someone
01:23:05 why would you need to report that direct speech even if that is what it is what was said so therefore I reported it even though it was about someone's attractiveness exactly but
01:23:18 someone's attractiveness exactly but people select their friends on that sort of criteria It's Perfectly Normal what's the policing value in that
01:23:31 the policing value and the fact that someone is popular with another group of people I suppose that might have policing value but good looks why are good looks of policing
01:23:46 value of itself not of policing value but the fact that someone is personable and like by others is relevant can we take that down and can we go in file seven please to tap 209 739
01:24:11 652 and can we have page two this is another proor this one dated the 1st of uh December uh 19 uh 992 uh about a female born about
01:24:30 992 uh about a female born about 1967 5'9 slim long brown hair and if we look at the text at the bottom of the page privacy moved from privacy to a room in a house in privacy on the 19th of November she's almost paranoid about police interest in her aliu an animal
01:24:44 police interest in her aliu an animal Liberation Front activity and she had hoped to keep her new address secret however Ronnie Lee telephoned her to arrange a meeting and she is now convinced that police know where she lives during Ronnie Lee's imprisonment
01:24:58 lives during Ronnie Lee's imprisonment privacy was a regular correspondent with him it seems that Lee has a romantic interest in privacy who is strikingly attractive which is not
01:25:12 reciprocated why did you report that the woman in question was strikingly attractive I'm not sure who this might be but it's it's a matter of fact that
01:25:29 be but it's it's a matter of fact that she was I suppose but why is that of any relevance to policing it would explain Ronnie Lee's interest in her why is it necessary to report that someone who is the subject of an
01:25:42 someone who is the subject of an unwanted romantic interest is strikingly attractive it's a descriptor of her
01:25:47 appearance no policing value
01:25:59 it's helpful in identifying someone I think if you know that they are particularly attractive and they're in a group of people you have a load of photographs and you're trying to identify individuals it's highly subjective isn't it of course it is yes
01:26:14 subjective isn't it of course it is yes yeah and if you want to identify someone it's much better to report objective particulars isn't it yes it's the reality that there was no policing value in reporting that this woman was strikingly attractive
01:26:33 that that's your view yes I understand that no I'm asking you uh well I reported it it seems so I felt it was important to report
01:26:47 it and what policing value if any did you think it had I was simply reporting the fact again I'm I'm guessing it's um I'm guessing it's reported
01:27:04 I'm guessing it's reported speech this is not an inverted commas is it no no and the the sentence it seems that Lee has a romantic interest in privacy who is strikingly attractive um doesn't sound much like reported speech does
01:27:17 does it it's hard to say with the summation in the
01:27:22 in the report it might have been my own view that she was strikingly attractive that's certainly possible yeah can we take that down and have up from Volume 7 tab C 216 739
01:27:54 653 can we go to page two please 12th of January 1993 upto-date and information performer about an unemployed animal
01:28:14 performer about an unemployed animal rights activist 5'9 slim long brown hair and under the PEC uh heading vegan very attractive why were you reporting uh that this woman was very attractive
01:28:30 I'm not entirely sure this is my report but um would it be possible to see an unredacted version to see to whom it
01:28:42 refers um I told that you accept attribution of this report in your witness statement and if we go back a
01:28:48 page um you will see the covering minute
01:29:00 hn two yep okay got you thank you yeah if you say see the top paragraph subject is of public order police interest if a copy is sent to box 500 it must be sent under cover to F2 quoting hn2 so this is
01:29:12 hn2 so this is h86 sending it off to directing that it be sent off to the security service and filed as one of your reports yes okay so we go back to
01:29:31 why are you reporting that she's very attractive probably because she is was at the
01:29:32 at the time could we now look at the text
01:29:43 underneath subject recently moved to the above address with a friend privacy who she used to live close to in privacy she moved because of her fear of police
01:29:57 moved because of her fear of police interest in her and because of friction within and disintegration of the group of her Associates which included ASW person two and person one the friction has been caused by subject's rejection of ASW sexual advances whilst accepting
01:30:10 of ASW sexual advances whilst accepting those of person one and person two each without the knowledge of the other as a result person two is isolated himself from the group but others seemed to have
01:30:21 from the group but others seemed to have been reconciled and if it go to the next
01:30:35 page subject is now intimately involved with person three known as privacy who is a Crusty type and a member of the Brixton hunt sabur group living in a squat at privacy privacy brickton it is highly likely that subject will entice
01:30:48 highly likely that subject will entice person three into becoming more deeply involved in Al style activity
01:30:59 it might be said that there's more sexual gossip in that passage than in a copy of the news of the world why are you reporting so much sexual
01:31:07 sexual gossip I think it indicates the volatility within that particular group and and the relationships between different
01:31:17 different people it's not necessary though is it to report
01:31:22 to report on all the intricate web of who's sleeping with who is you can just say they've fallen out moved moved
01:31:35 out moved moved home I was probably more keen on getting the detail right and the reasons are rather rather relevant surely was any of any of the three reports that I've just shown you the subject to any negative criticism or guidance from your managers
01:31:49 no why are these reports so sexual
01:32:04 ized I think it indicates the the way that groups form and and split apart because of interpersonal relationships that guide how different people work together and live together it's it's a fairly Movable Feast about who knows who
01:32:19 fairly Movable Feast about who knows who who likes who who who falls out with who over that period and it was generally around relationships you're reporting people's good looks they're strikingly attractive they're very attractive you're reporting sexual gossip was the
01:32:33 you're reporting sexual gossip was the sexual attractiveness of the women you were mixing with on your mind no no not for me but it was certainly um a matter of um
01:32:46 um note were you in fact thinking of those women in sexual terms no well why did you report so much sexual material which was not of policing
01:32:59 was not of policing value I say again it was largely because it indicated the volatility of the relationships between people in these particular groups and how it changed Moment by
01:33:07 Moment by moment can I now uh ask you about the Monday and Thursday meetings in the safe house yes um was there ever in your experience any sexist banter
01:33:29 I don't know I I can't recall any I would be surprised if there if there wasn't uh were there ever any sexual comments gosh I don't
01:33:44 comments gosh I don't know I can't think of any no would there is it likely there would have been it's entirely possible sexist jokes yeah well that's what 32 years ago I think it's a possibility that took
01:33:57 I think it's a possibility that took place a possibility yeah it's a reality it probably happened yeah absolutely uh sexually crude comments
01:34:07 comments unlikely why
01:34:15 unlikely just it doesn't fit in with what the purpose of the meetings there were
01:34:21 for can we take the document down now please
01:34:27 please uh I want to now ask you about a woman called Emily Johns can you recall her from the peace movement I do she was a
01:34:41 from the peace movement I do she was a prominent figure in the peace movement yes if we could have up please uh MPS 0749 597
01:35:03 we think you've got a PDF of it it's a this is a late addition to the
01:35:15 bundle I'm told sir it's on your trolley underneath the photographs y
01:35:29 so right at the very bottom on the right hand side sir as you look at
01:35:46 it this is a witness statement uh made by Emily
01:35:48 by Emily John's
01:35:56 John's um if we she talks about um meeting you you did meet her undercover didn't you yes I did yes and about the demonstrations against the Gulf War and if we go over the
01:36:09 page the one that you just had the one that begins is likely thank you uh if we can pick up on the fourth line of that page from the fourth line onwards
01:36:40 my strongest memory of Andy was that at one day in the early summer he gave me a lift home from the pub I do not recall which Pub he gave me a lift in his van I remember him telling me that he was the Press officer for
01:37:03 was the Press officer for Al can you recall uh giving um Emily JNS a lift home in your van I remember this conversation I don't remember it being in a van it may well have been did you tell her that you were the Press officer for the ALS no I I said that I was involved with the
01:37:20 that I was involved with the lfsg I thought there was no way he could be there press officer and if he was he would not tell me that was her misunderstanding I remember that being quite I was quite amused at that because
01:37:31 quite I was quite amused at that because the SG role was um fairly overt um I was involved
01:37:32 involved in um world animals day um a lot of people knew me in that role did you explain that to her no I think I just
01:37:44 explain that to her no I think I just laughed my sense was that he was trying to show off regarding his political credentials I was wary of him and did not believe him I invited Ed him in but it got later and
01:38:02 in but it got later and later and my sense was that he wanted to get off with me did you stay until late at Emily Johnson's
01:38:10 Johnson's home what she's referring to there is a different event um if you would like me to explain I remember it very clearly
01:38:22 to explain I remember it very clearly please do um this was early on um I met her she was then looking to move to an address in I think Leighton Stone from the family address um
01:38:34 the family address um in Camden I think um and she wanted me to move um a large um cabinet I think it's an artist's cabinet where you you put all of your artist materials and papers and so on um it required two people to move it so went to her home
01:38:52 people to move it so went to her home address collected this drove around it was quite late at night by this stage drove around to um the address in Leighton Stone unloaded the um cabinet um took it upstairs to a bedroom and I was rather surprised to find a young woman asleep in the bed when I um took this
01:39:08 in the bed when I um took this um this cabinet into the room with Emily and she said oh don't worry she's totally deaf she won't wake up she won't hear you um and then we went downstairs and she couldn't
01:39:20 and she couldn't um she couldn't pay I didn't expect her to pay for the for the um the the uh trip so she made me um supper I had a can of beer and um I accidentally lent against one of the paintings there I
01:39:32 against one of the paintings there I remember and I slightly scuffed one of the wet wet patches of paint which caused us some upset um and then I left around about well late at night it was certainly late at night but this um this idea that I was um flirtatious was um
01:39:47 idea that I was um flirtatious was um irrelevant at the time I thought if she was moving into this house with um a young woman asleep in the one bed in the house that um there was the possibility that uh she would not be um interested in
01:40:02 in me it's very clear she was um well I say clear I would assume that she was in a relationship with this young woman so for her to say I was flirtatious with her is a bit
01:40:14 her is a bit odd and if she had been a bit interested in you well she wasn't if she had she wasn't I'm asking you on the hypothetical if she had been well then I would have dissuaded her of that interest
01:40:28 she says I suppose teasingly I asked whether he wanted to stay the night realizing this he eagerly said yes and
01:40:42 realizing this he eagerly said yes and so I offered him a mattress and sleeping bag in the artist studio on the ground floor of the house did that happen I told her if if I was going to drink anym then I wouldn't be driving
01:40:53 drink anym then I wouldn't be driving and that was something I did constantly which was I didn't want to be drink driving I was very strict about it um if it had been necessary I had a sleeping bag and a mattress in the
01:41:05 van doesn't quite answer my question did she offer you um sleeping accommodation in the
01:41:18 house I it's not it wasn't that way around
01:41:20 around no I said to her if I'm going to get drunk I'm going to stay over because I'm not going to drive um under the influence of
01:41:37 alcohol it goes on um the house was a two-story house with a studio
01:41:42 a studio downstairs and the living area upstairs it was a house shared with another female artist she was not if we go over the
01:41:58 the page at home during this time when I put the mattress down he stormed out and slammed the door did that happen
01:42:07 fabricated I did not see him again prior to that his manner had been flirty did you do anything that might have been construed as
01:42:20 have been construed as flirtatious I was just friendly and we were part of the same um protest group early on and we did meet up later might you have got the idea that you were after sexual
01:42:34 that you were after sexual activity I I'm not in control of her perceptions that wasn't what I did well you do know what you did yeah that's what my question is directly yes exactly which was not being flutatious
01:43:01 friendly why would Emily John's fabricate uh what on one view is Simply Her heading off what she thought was going to be an unwanted sexual advance that presupposes that's what actually happened at the time and I dispute
01:43:11 dispute that why I'm giving you you don't have to take it I'm just giving you the opportunity sure do you wish to um Advance any evidence as to why Emily Johns would make up this incident I have a view but that's not
01:43:24 incident I have a view but that's not evidence and I wouldn't want to give a view without
01:43:36 evidence my sense was that he wanted to get into a sexual relationship I'm not sure why he wanted to get into a sexual relationship with me our house was on the route of the M11 and these houses
01:43:51 the route of the M11 and these houses were knocked down so the M11 could be built possibly uh it could have been because of that is it true that the house was on the route of uh the then yet to be built M1 I had no idea about any of
01:44:04 any of that U and you do have Recollections as you've described of going to Emily johns's house these would have been in the summer of 91 best of my recollection it was early on in the time when I was still um
01:44:18 on in the time when I was still um involved in the pacifist movement so be before that you would say early on during that period yeah the we've met and she she was the person who got me
01:44:29 and she she was the person who got me involved in the Gulf War resistors and that's I think how a friendship developed between
01:44:41 us can we take that down now please um do you recall detector Chief superintendent uh Potter uh joining the chain of command in April
01:45:02 1991 um um in C Squad would that be right yeah yes uh he was a as a detective Chief superintendent a senior officer I thought he was a superintendent uh forgive
01:45:18 me uh did you uh meet uh Mr Potter I think so yes in what circumstances did you meet Mr Potter I'm not entirely sure um he may have come to visit us at one time I'm
01:45:35 have come to visit us at one time I'm not entirely sure at the safe house it's possible yeah yeah did you have any prior knowledge of either Chief superintendent or superintendent Potter I I'd not worked with him before no I'm going to read out a paragraph
01:45:54 no I'm going to read out a paragraph from a witness statement the inquiry has obtained from Peter Francis for the forthcoming tranch 3 hearings yes detective Chief superintendent Robert Potter used the nword regularly
01:46:05 Potter used the nword regularly including at SDS safe houses he was
01:46:17 including at SDS safe houses he was known as potty Bob for having a potty mouth but also for being mentally unstable when he came to the SDS meetings he behaved like he was one of the lads he would drink a lot and was
01:46:30 the lads he would drink a lot and was always very loud and indulged in casual racism and sexism after leaving one of these SDS meetings he was arrested for
01:46:42 these SDS meetings he was arrested for racist behavior in a public place ending his police career first of all did Chief superintendent Robert
01:47:01 all did Chief superintendent Robert Potter use the nword in your presence at the SDS safe house or anywhere else no not that I remember no would you remember it if he had i' been shocked if he had
01:47:11 he had yes was he known as potty Bob that's news to
01:47:19 news to me was he regarded as being mentally unstable um
01:47:30 I mean I know that I know the story about this particular case the fact that the individual had mental health issues was eventually discovered
01:47:42 was eventually discovered yes but I don't think at the time he was he was regarded in that way by by staff no how did you regard his mental stability from what you saw of
01:47:55 him really hter is to say I nothing out of the order in his behavior that I
01:48:07 remember did he behave like one of the lads when he attended the safe house I I couldn't help you I'm sorry I beg your pardon I can't help you I'm sorry I don't don't remember any of that would you have remembered it if he
01:48:21 had possibly yes if if there was anything um striking unusual yes possibly did did he drink a lot um I doubt that very much I didn't see it sorry let me be precise I don't remember I don't remember that again if
01:48:38 remember I don't remember that again if if he'd been heavily drinking that would have been something of comment yeah was he very
01:48:47 loud by very you mean I'm not entirely sure what you mean they meanings to very loud he wasn't quite SP man no no but to say very loud as in he was shouty or or anything like that I don't think that's right in your own words how would you
01:49:01 right in your own words how would you describe him he was quite an assertive chat I remember volume wise well not not shouty no but um I suppose he could project his voice
01:49:26 yes in the at the time in the early '90s would you have been equipped to detect racist or sexist comments yes did he indulge in casual racist comments I
01:49:37 indulge in casual racist comments I don't remember that no did he indulge in casual sexist Comics I don't remember any of that no Mighty have
01:49:46 done unlikely but having known what his um future held in terms of his medical condition it's
01:49:54 possible how did the lads behave in the SDS Safe
01:50:04 House a regular meeting we turn up um we have quite close friendships we sit and chat
01:50:15 um I used to uh arrange golf with a couple of others as are um downtime uh the offic would come we'd sit we go through the process um we'd occasionally cook meals
01:50:31 um we'd occasionally cook meals um and occasionally go down to the pub afterwards have a couple of beers decompress and then go on our way and would decompressing involve talking about some of the people you were mixing with highly possible yes and whether they were strikingly attractive
01:50:43 whether they were strikingly attractive whether they were in irritation or not I would guess whether they were strikingly attractive I don't remember that sort of conversation but certainly someone was really um
01:50:56 really um causing you some stress then you would probably mention them did you hear at the time about DCS Potter's arrest yes um was it quite Sensational news it
01:51:14 yes um was it quite Sensational news it was very extraordinary yes and what did you
01:51:16 you hear uh there were two parts to it um
01:51:25 I'm not sure whether it's the same time but I remember that there was conversation about him being a bit strange and being at he airport and then collecting a whole load of trolley into a long line and putting them away which
01:51:38 a long line and putting them away which is very unusual behavior and the second uh was when he got out of a car when he was being
01:51:50 he got out of a car when he was being driven and went into um I think it was a charismatic church and made some very inappropriate comments to people who were there racist comments yes very racist very racist comments yeah was that when he was being driven home from the SDS safe house it's a
01:52:05 possibility and what was your reaction to that I was quite shocked about that as you might imagine it's very un very unusual behavior extraordinary behavior and what was the reaction of your colleagues
01:52:17 colleagues um well disbelief some hilarity I think why hilarity it's such an extraordinary thing for a senior manager to to do it
01:52:28 thing for a senior manager to to do it just it didn't seem real and could you describe to us in more detail the form the hilarity
01:52:41 took I think people were laughing at the absur the absurdity of the events that were
01:52:50 reported in how much detail uh were events circulating and the fact of his arrest and the fact of the incident as far as I know we knew briefly about it and it was only later on that I discovered what had
01:53:06 happened in terms of knowledge of just how racist um Potter had been was that
01:53:22 known I'm not entirely sure we knew the words used but um certainly racial abuse towards uh people of color was what was described
01:53:31 yes and some elements of sexual harassment as well trying to kiss women didn't know
01:53:37 that and did it become common knowledge that the way that that was dealt with ultimately uh was a medical discharge for
01:53:43 for Potter he was diagnosed with a with a um
01:53:53 Potter he was diagnosed with a with a um a chemical imbalance in the brain that's right and um I think he resigned rather than was discharged I'm not entirely sure short and then went to work in another
01:54:01 role what was your manager's response to this
01:54:08 incident it was reported to us but I'm how do you mean what were they I'm just asking how they were referring you were there I'm asking what their reaction was I'm I'm really I'm struggling to think
01:54:19 I'm I'm really I'm struggling to think what the what that was I just I remember that we talked about it did they react with hilarity
01:54:28 I don't think so no no at that stage uh were any of you trained uh to uh recognize and avoid sexism and
01:54:41 sexism and racism I certainly was I mean others probably
01:54:45 probably yes was anything done to reinforce the message that it's unacceptable
01:54:57 I think my training was um gosh what was it called it's a training school I forget the name that they called it but it was to do with um how to behave with certainly with with um
01:55:10 to behave with certainly with with um minority groups more than sexism I think it's not my question did your managers do anything to reinforce that training as a result of this incident I'm trying
01:55:22 as a result of this incident I'm trying to say you're presupposing that the was training that everyone had that they were reinforcing I'm trying to remember what sort of training I had and whether they would have re reinforced it cuz the training I had was at training school
01:55:35 training I had was at training school there might have been someone I was um undertaking some police training as a trainer but I don't remember specifically training in this area at all within within special Branch I can
01:55:46 all within within special Branch I can make it easy for you did your managers do
01:55:47 do anything to address not racism
01:56:01 the issue for me is that the fact that his racism was a mental health issue and it wasn't a specific could you answer
01:56:14 it wasn't a specific could you answer the question please did your managers do anything in response to Potter's racism to convey the message that racism was not
01:56:16 not acceptable I think we were just all shocked about what had happened to be fair and
01:56:26 you're asking me did did the did the managers address the the racist comments specifically in something that they said in the in the team and that's no they
01:56:42 didn't can I come back to the question of hilarity yeah what form did that take sort of incomprehensible um this is ridiculous you know it's a sense of of what on Earth is going on
01:56:58 Steven Lawrence was murdered on the 22nd of April
01:57:02 of April 1993 whilst you were serving in the SDS yes do you recall the event I do it was a very high-profile murder wasn't it it was
01:57:16 wasn't it it was yes what was said about it at the time in the safe house
01:57:27 it wasn't really my area um I had some connection purely in in the fact that the um anarchists I was knocking around with were going to the protests
01:57:40 protests so in terms of the case itself I knew it from beforehand um you know the the appalling uh racist attacks were just awful we we're all aware of
01:57:50 aware of that it's not quite my question I'm asking about what discussion was there about Steven's murder in the safe houses I I'm finding it hard to answer
01:58:02 houses I I'm finding it hard to answer that question directly because I'm just trying to think of the the knowledge that we had at the time I don't remember anything unpleasant or negative it was all just a dreadful murder I think we were more concerned about the competence of the officers
01:58:18 about the competence of the officers investigating if I remember rightly but I mean I would be guessing here it's it's difficult to remember do you you recall hearing about any
01:58:30 any tasking or intelligence requirements for any of the undercover officers arising from the attack on Steven Lawrence and Dwayne
01:58:47 Brooks I imagine officers in those areas would sorry in the groups that wanted to ride alongside the tragedy and use it for their political ends would have been briefed yes I'm I'm pretty sure we we did have discussions about that sort of thing and what were the intelligence
01:59:06 requirements I think we were trying to identify those groups who wanted to utilize the tragedy as a Clarion call for their own actions either for recruitment or for getting involved in Street
01:59:20 protest as I think we've had quite a lot of evidence in in the past the SDS were interested in groups which might seek as you would see it to exploit this sort of event that's right
01:59:36 event that's right yes and that would include wouldn't it an
01:59:41 an interest in activists who might be surrounding the family correct can you recall uh any intelligence
01:59:52 intelligence requirements or taskings about
01:59:58 about that it wasn't something that was um my area frankly um I would imagine those that were looking at groups like The swp would have had taskings
02:00:13 have had taskings yes can you recall anything specific no I can't not specifically but it would make
02:00:20 sense can you recall any mention of Steven's family
02:00:32 only in terms of how to protect them from um the radical groups that wanted to politicize their tragedy and what was said on that topic again it was about groups like The swp who wanted to to politicize it and
02:00:46 swp who wanted to to politicize it and turn it into a coral labra and what was the SDS going to do about that the object was to identify those groups that wish to exploit the um the
02:01:03 tragedy did anyone uh say anything about obtaining
02:01:10 obtaining intelligence that might be detrimental to the family absolutely not you sure about
02:01:12 about that as far as I can remember I certainly wasn't um aware of anything like that but to denigrate the family you mean yes no no
02:01:25 you mean yes no no or as the allegation is to smear the Lawrence no absolutely not no a lot of the answers you've given me are to the effect you're struggling to recall things um you've been very
02:01:37 recall things um you've been very definite about that why it's just a horrendous thing that happened it's awful and I can remember it I can remember it really
02:01:52 well and the whole thing that the the police investigation was not adequate the the long battle for the family to get Justice it was just that was of that era it was just a horrible thing to see
02:02:05 era it was just a horrible thing to see and what was worse for us is to see some of the groups that we were involved in were were trying to gain Capital out of the
02:02:10 the tragedy I'm focusing on the period particularly um after in the months after the murder
02:02:24 yes why are you so definite that there were there's no mention of smearing the lawrences I remember none of that did you hear any discussion on that or any similar Topic at any time sorry could you be a bit more did
02:02:39 time sorry could you be a bit more did you hear any discussion about smearing the
02:02:40 the lawrences or any similar Topic at any
02:02:47 time no
02:02:57 as I'm sure you can imagine this issue is very important to Steven's family and to Dwayne Brooks to know what happened yes is there anything else that you can assist the inquiry with on this
02:03:13 topic but who who wouldn't have sympathy for the family and their and their tragedy
02:03:15 tragedy know to think that we would do anything inimical to the family is it just is is faintly
02:03:24 faintly well surprising is the least comment I would
02:03:30 make h86 did you ever hear him say anything
02:03:47 racist no or do anything racist no
02:04:00 no or do anything racist no at the safe house meetings during your four and a bit years in the SDS was there ever any racist
02:04:19 banter it's entirely possible I I don't remember any any cases of it any racist comments not that I remember now might there have been possible yeah yeah probable
02:04:23 knowing the characters that were there at the time it' be a surprise but like any sort of canteen culture I suppose if you've been dealing with a particular
02:04:35 you've been dealing with a particular person and they've really irritated you you might say something which would be off color that's what it was like in those
02:04:36 those days racist
02:04:44 jokes I don't think racist jokes it would have been s some negative comment about an individual that you would particularly fallen out with or caused you grief racially offensive comments it's possible it's possible I don't remember this but it's
02:05:04 possible sir I'm about to move to another topic that's pry convenient time certainly and we normally have a break of 15 minutes after about an hour and a half to enable the transcribers to have a welld deserved rest same for you
02:05:20 than
02:24:49 e e
02:25:37 Mr Kohl's anarchists uh you are beginning to report fairly early on in your report on a number
02:25:49 in your report on a number of anarchist groupings yes for example we have got first report about the anchus at one 21 Railton Road dated the 21st of May
02:26:02 21 Railton Road dated the 21st of May where you report on a cafe film show uh being screened in conjunction with the troops out movement I'd just like to understand please in your own words to what extent was this just getting
02:26:18 was this just getting established in order to pursue an animal rights deployment with an anarchist flavor
02:26:24 flavor and to what extent it was for the actual value of the intelligence you were eliciting about places like 121 Railton Road could you just tell me the date of
02:26:41 Road could you just tell me the date of that report again that report is we can bring it up for you so you can have a look it's Volume 5 tab c17 22086
02:26:54 May 91 if we could just expand the text
02:27:13 please yes could you help us with what what the purpose of uh infiltrating one one Railton Road was it was really sort of the The Hub of anarchist
02:27:30 sort of the The Hub of anarchist activity in Brixton um I knew it before then when I was a a PC because it featured
02:27:33 featured in uh drugs raids in the area and so on so it was a fairly familiar place um it was really a base for a lot of different Anarchist groups to establish themselves it had a meeting room and it
02:27:46 themselves it had a meeting room and it had this um Cafe on Fridays when people would be served food generally which we'd um rescued from the skips down at Cent Garden I seem to remember that was a very regular thing that we did and it was establishing myself within the
02:28:00 was establishing myself within the General South London Anarchist movement of course a lot of my um early
02:28:14 of course a lot of my um early experience in um stram sorry in Brixton and in suuk was around um supporting squatters so that was really how it started and of course this was a squatted
02:28:15 squatted shot um and then being involved with the brickton hunt it was a great way to meet up with fellow bricks and htbs who were generally anarchists from the scotting community who used it uh this was a bit
02:28:30 community who used it uh this was a bit of a surprise in that it was a a troops out event because I wasn't targeted in that area um and uh when I saw it I thought I would go along just to um see how many people turned up to the cafe and then the talk
02:28:44 and then the talk afterwards thank you in similar vein if we go to the next tab please uh tab 18 22087
02:29:02 this is dated the 7th of June 1991 we understand it to be based on your intelligence yes uh and it's a report
02:29:14 intelligence yes uh and it's a report about the setting up of a new Anarchist Bookshop and information center at 56a krampton
02:29:15 krampton street I'll give you a moment to refresh your memory but it's going to I remember this one that's fine yeah it's going to be the same question what was the what
02:29:27 be the same question what was the what was the purpose of uh reporting on the setting up of this Bookshop uh effectively it was a um a money generating exercise certainly the the fair shares Cooperative whole food side
02:29:43 fair shares Cooperative whole food side was the uh run by the brickton hunt sabs um and it was one that brought in money for them and then the the Bookshop at the back
02:29:46 the back had from what I remember a lot of thrash music was for sale and a variety of Publications and it was run by members of the Brixton hunt sabs who were part of that
02:29:55 of that Collective and so which is the more important reporting per se on 56a or getting an introduction to the Brixton
02:30:07 getting an introduction to the Brixton hunt sabots I'd say both because um they weren't just about hunt Saabs that was just part of the activity of these two areas which were sort of hubs if you like for the white Anarchist community
02:30:18 like for the white Anarchist community and what is it about the anarchist that you understood to be of policing interest um criminality uh hatred of authority um resistance towards Democratic processes the whole
02:30:32 towards Democratic processes the whole shebang really they were um pretty much um Lively class war activists there is mention in your post-operative debrief we can take that document down now of the East dulich
02:30:55 document down now of the East dulich against the pole Tax Group right however we can only find one mention of this in your reporting which is a report about an individual from April
02:31:08 1992 would it be fair for us to take from that that in fact you didn't have much to do with the East dich against the pole Tax Group I think I said in in in one of my reports that I was involved in around 55 different groups so I counted them all up once some of them were this is it's a bit of a um an aside
02:31:23 were this is it's a bit of a um an aside but you get three Anarchist together you get four groups organized and they all fight with each other and collapse turn into something else so often people set up a group for a particular function um it didn't take off people didn't follow it and it it died a death but generally
02:31:37 it and it it died a death but generally the groups were set up for a variety of specific protests and they either survived or fell depending on the support of The Wider Community some of them existed for a long period of time he against the pole tax I I can't remember very much about it well the
02:31:49 remember very much about it well the campaign against tax was huge was huge successful and sustained absolutely yeah yeah
02:31:55 yeah um the postoperative debrief suggests that that was your way into 56a and 121 Railton road is that in fact right it's possible there was one meeting called
02:32:11 possible there was one meeting called and I found it was advertised and I went and I then found fellow anarchists that I could then become close to yeah as you've mentioned 55 groups you tottered up why so many I think I explained that when an
02:32:25 I think I explained that when an anarchist group gets together and they want to run a campaign they set up a group name and and sometimes they survive sometimes they don't when I was first establishing myself in South London I didn't quite know all the different radical groups and those that were legitimate pressure groups and
02:32:40 were legitimate pressure groups and other protest groups so anything that had the word animal in it I think in South London I went to have a look at to see what it was um and some were entirely legitimate and I soon left once
02:32:52 entirely legitimate and I soon left once I'd realized what was going on uh really establishing myself as someone who is concerned about animal rights but looking always for the opportunity to go towards the more radical the more extreme and the potentially um criminal uh people within it because your
02:33:04 uh people within it because your reporting is far from confined to anarchists absolutely yeah it's very wide what was the thread if there's a
02:33:16 wide what was the thread if there's a Common Thread to be found what is it I'm looking for the individuals who are likely to
02:33:17 likely to form um effectively an Alf cell or who already had them or had the capacity for doing
02:33:30 that and there are two components to that are they're building up your credibility and then eliciting the intelligence yeah it's mainly looking at who which individuals turn up at events and to see those which seem to be on
02:33:43 and to see those which seem to be on that sort of wavelength so that I could then befriend them and to what extent were people talking
02:33:56 talking about the commission of Alf actions in terms specific enough to identify individual perpetrators never never in that in that specific terms you're always looking for someone who had something about them about
02:34:08 something about them about their how angry they were about a particular issue um how motivated they
02:34:19 particular issue um how motivated they were um and whether they had some sort of sense of um capacity you you get a feeling that that person's organized competent capable likely to carry out something so you're always trying to draw in your subjective analysis of people's individual behaviors about where they might be going in the
02:34:36 future Lucy the dog yeah when did you get her when yes please it was post um involvement with hunt
02:34:44 hunt sapping I think 93 um I don't know if I reported the date but around about that sort of time sorry I think 1993 but when in
02:34:59 '93 you'll probably be able to help me on this one uh the reason I got Lucy was because I befriended people who are running um a particular organization called tail ends um and one of them was of
02:35:16 ends um and one of them was of particular interest um that I was asked to Target befriend and find out some information from them about um and incident that they've been in prisoned for and had been released so at some point in 1993 you
02:35:29 released so at some point in 1993 you get Lucy as part and parcel of enaging your way into a a group of animal activists who are of interest to you just a couple just two people yeah for
02:35:40 just a couple just two people yeah for the purpose of the job basically exactly yes that's right can we uh look at in volume one tab A2 2
02:35:51 one tab A2 2 735
02:36:10 554 can you this is a summary of an interview between you and operation Hearn officers yes um if you look down the page about 34s of the way down
02:36:27 the page about 34s of the way down targeting strategy nothing signed had dog Lucy to put off
02:36:35 women that's a very interesting note I'm not sure
02:36:48 that I had Lucy yes specifically I got her a lovely dog because um I had to uh become friends with these two individuals the effect of having Lucy is I could transfer my affection to her and so she was my source of affection so I guess
02:36:59 was my source of affection so I guess that's what I mean by put off women but um that's a very odd combination of having a dog to put off women she wasn't aggressive at all you have told us just now yeah that you got the dog for the job to advance your
02:37:12 for the job to advance your infiltration of T of two specific people associated with tail ends yes did you or did you not get Lucy to put off
02:37:28 women that wasn't the reason to get the dog but I think it might have been the
02:37:39 effect the people you were infiltrating were animal lovers yes dog lovers yes Jessica for example yes was a even by the standards of the animal
02:37:54 a even by the standards of the animal rights movement a particularly strong dog lover wasn't she that's right yeah having a dog in the animal rights
02:38:05 yeah having a dog in the animal rights movement was not going to repel anybody was
02:38:16 it I think what what I'm saying in that well it's a note and interpretation which is a bit odd I had the dog Lucy yes um did she make me more interesting as a person I don't know uh I was able to transfer my
02:38:28 know uh I was able to transfer my affections to her and we were we were like a couple often people mention that
02:38:40 um in fact the most most animal rights people that were settled had companion animals of one sort or another and often many of them good for your cover precisely but it was predominantly I me
02:38:51 precisely but it was predominantly I me the reason for the dog was to build up a relationship with the two individuals I was tasked to um investigate for a very specific purpose over a short period of time but the dogs stayed rather longer than that transfer transferring your attention in
02:39:03 attention in 1993 from
02:39:17 whom I'm sorry I don't understand that you said that you were transferring your affection to Lucy I want to know where you were transferring your affection from
02:39:21 oh I see what you mean sorry
02:39:31 um transferring my affection I'm probably using the wrong word then
02:39:35 word then um displaying my affection perhaps that's what I
02:39:45 meant is the reality uh that you were trying to portray yourself as seeking to avoid women when you spoke to operation
02:39:56 operation Hearn you couldn't avoid but but avoiding getting involved in relationships that might become more personal yeah I mean that certainly was what I was trying to do at all times and you gave them a reason which was
02:40:13 false I think it's a misinterpretation of something that I said to say that Lucy was there to put off women I think that's that's odd as you say it's unlikely in animal rights movement that having a dog would put off
02:40:27 having a dog would put off somebody I transferred my affection to the I said that again displayed my affection towards
02:40:35 Lucy can we uh go now to the brickston hunt sabotage group we can take this document down if we can call up from volume Five document 744 584
02:40:56 this is the first report in time about brickton hunt sabur group it is dated the 16th of July 1991 we believe it to be based on your intelligence can we
02:41:08 be based on your intelligence can we have a look at paragraphs two and three please the brickton hunt saers have not taken part in animal rights activity
02:41:19 taken part in animal rights activity recently following their eviction from their squat at premises in sborn Road they have now moved into a former crash at privacy and are now planning to sabotage hunts during the 19912 season the hunt sabot will be
02:41:32 19912 season the hunt sabot will be holding a party at their new squat on Friday the 26th of July 1991 to renew ties with local activists they hope to
02:41:43 ties with local activists they hope to ameliorate their current lack of funds by holding a street collection in Lamberth on the 3rd of August using pictures organized by
02:41:54 pictures organized by slaa on the 8th of August 1991 from 7:30 at the voler rooms clap and bath clap and man Street bhsg will be holding an open meeting to recruit new members for the forthcoming season can you help us
02:42:05 the forthcoming season can you help us by this stage your first report on the bhsg how much contact have you had with them and how have you got to the stage of being able to report this information
02:42:22 I'll have a stab at this I can't be I can't guarantee it's it's entirely accurate because I'm not working from memory here but very early on I I was um used as a
02:42:36 but very early on I I was um used as a driver they were short of drivers they had a whole load of um of new members actually that might be post this particular event
02:42:51 um I had I had been involved in assisting people who were squatting um moving their stuff out when they were evicted and and helping them to move into other places that they' squatted
02:42:56 uh I'm guessing I've built a relationship by now with one or two of the organizers and they're just telling me stuff that would be my guess and can we fairly take it that what you've done in the seven months that you've been
02:43:07 in the seven months that you've been deployed is six or seven months you've been deployed is follow your targeting strategy to the letter you've done the peace movement you've built up your
02:43:18 peace movement you've built up your credentials in the Anarchy Anarchist and other groups and you're now moving into animal rights proper yes I don't think it was l l like that there was always contact going
02:43:29 that there was always contact going backwards and forwards so it was a bit of a blend but I think yes you're right and when did the hunting season um an
02:43:42 and when did the hunting season um an Associated sabotage season run from and to I'm embarrassed to say I don't know when the hunting season is if it was to be suggested November to May would you disagree I wouldn't it's always in the winter but I couldn't give you the exact start and end
02:43:54 you the exact start and end times would it be fair to say that the brickston hunt sabur group comprised of two distinct Parts they Counter Culture squatters and the
02:44:07 squatters and the rest I don't think it's separated like that you had you had those that were happy to go out to Sab some were out there for the animals and some were out there to attack the TOs if you like um to carry out class war attacks um it was
02:44:21 to carry out class war attacks um it was a handy vehicle for both sides to go out there together in a group and get involved in what they wanted to get involved in they weren't actually members of the HSA they were just out there to I had a lovely t-shirt which I
02:44:32 there to I had a lovely t-shirt which I still have which has what they stand for the BHS is um the Bumpkin harassment Squad as they were known and that was really the sort of thing that they lived up
02:44:43 up to um they had a reputation within hunt sabotage circles didn't they they did justly deserved um I'd like a FL please of behaviors that you personally witnessed
02:44:54 witnessed yes that either reinforced or detracted from that
02:45:06 reinforced or detracted from that reputation right I can give you a couple of examples that I remember precisely two hunts there was one I think it was near Reading or at least there was a a hunt had employed um a club security guard to protect the
02:45:22 a club security guard to protect the hunt it had got physical and um a hunt sabot had their arm broken or wrist broken as a result of a confrontation between them and the security guard and a regional hit was called I think by
02:45:37 a regional hit was called I think by HSA um and Brixton came along to cause trouble um they located the security guard who ran into a farmhouse um they and then toed up with stones and sticks and smashed all the windows in The Farmhouse a police car turned up with two officers in the s
02:45:49 turned up with two officers in the s had mased up by then they um told the officers in no un certain terms go away or we'll GB you and the officers left with a tail between the legs it was quite an intimidating dangerous thing
02:46:00 quite an intimidating dangerous thing for them to have appeared at they didn't have the support that you'd have in London and they were they were under risk and they got out of the way so that was very very extreme um I also just before you move on sorry what happened to the security
02:46:14 on sorry what happened to the security guard he went into the Farmhouse and he was locked in um and they intimidated the police officers they drove away and then they decided discretion being the better part of Val they'd leave thank
02:46:27 better part of Val they'd leave thank you forgive me carry on please okay um oh gosh there quite a few examples I think
02:46:33 um there is film of some of their behavior in the beam Ander silver um uh documentary when they came along um I think that's still available on YouTube to see when there's a
02:46:46 YouTube to see when there's a confrontation between the Sor Union and then they
02:46:47 then they surrounded um Farm yard I'm not sure whether it was the hunt I don't think it was the Hunt's um base at all it wasn't the kennels um and they're throwing a load of sticks over the top um and then someone on the other side has a big
02:47:02 someone on the other side has a big stick and wax one of them that's on the wall and then it all starts over again it's a fair bit of physical confrontation uh I can remember a rough shoot that uh was disrupted when everyone ran in front of the guns and uh they used to have a
02:47:15 the guns and uh they used to have a whole pile of um walking sticks that were cut and left under the seats and so you grabbed them out of the Beast which was the large Land Rover and you'd arm yourself with the Stout walking stick so you wouldn't fall over but it was
02:47:31 you wouldn't fall over but it was clearly with two purposes in mind that if you needed it you could assault people um there are a number of incidents for example there was a one occasion I remember a huntsman was um in pink were were very much on their own and they were riding down the road
02:47:46 and they were riding down the road towards the Sab vehicle they all got out and charged at the rider on the horse with the intent to pull them off the horse and beat them up but they saw the threat and got away also they they once stole um a Hound from the hunt during a
02:47:57 stole um a Hound from the hunt during a foggy period grabbed it and took it back to the squat the examples I remember there are others but there's the ones I was um witnessed to to what extent was
02:48:09 was um witnessed to to what extent was the violence that you witnessed coming from hunt
02:48:11 from hunt sabot uh
02:48:18 sabot uh provoked and in self-defense and to what extent did it fall outside the Ambit of
02:48:26 self-defense they were mostly the initiators I mean there were times um that when I mentioned about the be to Sila episode you can see that um probably won't use the name but there was an individual who was sitting on the
02:48:40 was an individual who was sitting on the wall who was whacked behind with a stick that came from a a hunt supporter and that created a reaction with stones being thrown into the yard so you could say that that was provoked but whether I don't think that would be self-defense but um to be clear you said they were
02:49:00 but um to be clear you said they were mostly the instigators not always but mostly who was they the hunt house yeah um going to show you two contrasting reports now okay if we take this down first of all from Volume 5 tab 82730
02:49:11 82730 959 please
02:49:21 thank you uh this is a report which again we think is yours fourth of March 1992 uh about a member of the HSA who's 6'2 s slim long black and unkempt hair
02:49:37 6'2 s slim long black and unkempt hair with a large silver hoop earring in the left ear we're keeping the gentleman's name private but that may assist you uh I'm interested in the text privacy is a
02:49:51 I'm interested in the text privacy is a dedicated Sab tur who regularly engages in violent assaults on Hunt supporters he intends to continue his harassment of prominent members of The Sur Union and
02:50:02 prominent members of The Sur Union and old Sur and burto hunts and will further his activities by stealing plants from The Gardens of such people to stock his garden at home one of his targets is
02:50:13 garden at home one of his targets is known to be privacy privacy president of the hunt
02:50:17 the hunt Association can you help us with where on the SP
02:50:22 on the SP Behavior like this was within the Brixton hunt seers group and I I I don't mind whether or not this whether or not this person is a member is irrelevant I just want to know
02:50:34 member is irrelevant I just want to know where on the Spectrum would this sort of behavior
02:50:42 be I think you you'd have to separate out I suppose the class Warrior type from quite a lot of the hangers on sort of newly recruited the students those that were just coming along for the ride if you like who were not like this
02:50:54 if you like who were not like this individuals generally who have been saing a lot maybe had been injured by
02:51:06 saing a lot maybe had been injured by the hunt maybe had a an ongoing um issue with with that particular hunt and not not hugely common but there were individuals like that if we take that down U and from a a different perspective can we have up from Volume 7 tab c225 746
02:51:20 [Music]
02:51:33 6502 thank you this is a again an upto-date an information performer uh on a hunt sabot 15th of February
02:51:46 1993 uh if we look he described as 5 foot1 and stout I know who this is yeah if we could look at the text on the bottom of the page running over to the the next
02:51:51 the next page last weekend privacy was arrested in Hastings with fellow activist privacy while ding a butcher's window in the town with paint he used a false name and address at the police station but
02:52:02 address at the police station but personal items bearing his real name were found at privacy's home by police when it was searched following their arrest he is hopeful that Hastings
02:52:13 arrest he is hopeful that Hastings police will not realize that he has used a false name on this occasion since he
02:52:21 a false name on this occasion since he hopes to conceal that he is currently on bail for causing criminal damage to a window at MacDonald's in Brixton and therefore hopes to avoid a greater punishment or refusal of the court to Grant bail before trial as a result of the arrest privacy will not take part in animal rights
02:52:32 will not take part in animal rights activity of any sort for a while at least until the court cases are behind him but will concentrate on College work an area he has neglected of late privacy's personal circumstances have
02:52:47 privacy's personal circumstances have also deteriorated privacy alas privacy left the flat she shared with privacy and privacy following the allegation that privacy as a result privacy moved into the flat on his release from Brixton prison where he has been held on remand for offenses of serious assault
02:53:08 remand for offenses of serious assault he is very aggressive and has a fearsome reputation for violence so much so that he has been dissuaded from attending hunt
02:53:09 hunt meets as a sabot privacy then began to hempe privacy to such an extent that he started to spend long periods away from
02:53:25 started to spend long periods away from the flat most recently privacy has begun a sexual relationship with privacy one of the Brixton Cruses it would seem therefore that a relationship with privacy is tutoring on the brink of collapse all of these personal circumstances have certainly affected
02:53:36 circumstances have certainly affected privacy and it seems likely that in the near future he will move to a new address his commitment to Al action nevertheless remains as strong as ever can we take it from this that there were limits and that the hunt have
02:53:53 limits and that the hunt have community did not want very aggressive violent people on their sabotages I think the HSA had a
02:54:05 sabotages I think the HSA had a particular policy and and they they were rather more controlled as those sort of people like the brickton Hunts who weren't members of that and had a different
02:54:09 different um a different idea about what hunt saing was
02:54:12 saing was um there were some people who were problem cases who you know were very um difficult um people who had had their own particular personal crisis and as a result we're not the best human beings
02:54:24 result we're not the best human beings you might possibly find and who caused problems and there was often that fear about having people who are completely disregulated in terms of their behavior to be around but there were people with
02:54:35 to be around but there were people with with mental health problems and with um drug problems that were part as well so you did often have someone who was
02:54:46 you did often have someone who was disregulated within the group and if you could avoid them getting involved in uh direct action where it would bring everyone else into into difficulty with the police than you did but would the reality be that a successful hunt
02:54:57 reality be that a successful hunt sabotage was one in which there was no violence and the hunt was stopped through entirely lawful means that would be what the HSA would prefer absolutely
02:55:08 be what the HSA would prefer absolutely but it didn't always happen if you were in a group that wasn't HSA aligned can you help us with whether the Intelligence on uh the man in question about him using a false identity in court uh was a was used at at all was
02:55:20 court uh was a was used at at all was used how sorry uh to catch him using a false identity and misleading the court I don't know I would have just reported what I heard and that would be for the desk to organize and there would be
02:55:31 desk to organize and there would be considerations of operational security before indeed be out my hands yeah yeah and you've as I've read out uh
02:55:44 yeah and you've as I've read out uh reported on this gentleman's uh sex life haven't you why relationships yeah one readily sees why mislead intelligence that a man is misleading the court s is very violent so violent that he's been asked not to um participate in Hunt sabotages is has some policing
02:55:56 sabotages is has some policing value but why why his sex life it goes to the um the nature of the organization and
02:56:10 the what would I call it the the the Quick Change of of relationships and and connections between people who were friends and they're not friends and so on it was it was um pretty
02:56:27 can we take that down now and again on the moving from How The Hunt saers behaved
02:56:37 behaved to how the other side of the coin the hunters uh behaved can we have from volume one tab A1A 743 479 Please
02:57:01 um this is your six-month post off debrief as I've understood that that's a debrief six months after you have withdrawn from your deployment is that right about that yes if we could go to page five
02:57:11 page five please
02:57:14 um and we could look at paragraph
02:57:30 14 uh this is about your concerns and fears I feared I should say this is you answer in response to a series of questions that's right yes I feared serious assault from teram men or being
02:57:45 serious assault from teram men or being shot by irate Farmers more than anything else during my tour now I hope my cover is enough to protect me from hostile inquiry from my my former comrades my current fear is of being compromised now my tour is over I know there are activists I mixed with who would
02:58:01 activists I mixed with who would cheerfully attempt to take my life if it was confirmed to them that I had been a police officer spying on them yes in relation to the first sentence is that a fair assessment of your greatest
02:58:20 that a fair assessment of your greatest fear on deployment yeah I think that was the the least control um there were a couple of
02:58:22 couple of um areas um a couple of hunts where there were um well there were seven brothers who delighted in attacking sabs and were really quite violent I was very concerned about being caught um had a
02:58:36 concerned about being caught um had a long conversation with with um one of the named one of the um individuals under Cipher about this very particular
02:58:47 under Cipher about this very particular thing when we were together and we were sort of caught and managed to get away without any violence before it it happened so that was completely uncontrollable um when I was with the group we were all very much together and all very much looking after each other so I didn't fear them as much as I did that um being shot by irate Farmers
02:58:59 that um being shot by irate Farmers there was a particular case I think I can't remember exactly where that was reported about shots being discharged over the heads of um SS but I'm FR I
02:59:10 over the heads of um SS but I'm FR I can't remember what it was but that you being thinking that you would be um trying to confront um a farmer on their land and then firing at you was was a that did come up but again those were
02:59:21 that did come up but again those were uncontrollable things that might have happened to me that I couldn't control whereas being part of the organization I didn't fear their violence towards me
02:59:35 didn't fear their violence towards me unless I was compromised and there were deaths in the course of hunt sabotages weren't there uh three that I can remember yes
02:59:41 yes and four but to to be fair those weren't to do with violent attacks but it was largely to do with falling under the wheels moving vehicles and so on and jumping in front of a horse I think think for someone following the HSA
02:59:55 think for someone following the HSA line to go to a hunt sabotage with some of the characters on the hunt side must have been a terrifying experience um well what the HSA policy
03:00:08 experience um well what the HSA policy was was very clear that they would be as lawful as they possibly could be but individuals having the experience of being confronted by some um hunt members who are physical and aggressive towards them turn them into a more aggressive
03:00:21 them turn them into a more aggressive individual so we are all a product of our experiences and some of them why they might have wanted to tow the line were very able and robust at looking after
03:00:28 after themselves as to the more physically
03:00:39 themselves as to the more physically robust and those who might be pursuing a second agenda of class war if it was suggested uh that even they were cautious about initiating violence would
03:00:50 cautious about initiating violence would not be shy of standing up for themselves or
03:00:55 or retaliating would you agree that's a fair proposition or not I'm sorry I missed the the the subject of that question I I do apologize but which group if it was s about the more robust individuals and
03:01:09 about the more robust individuals and about those who are pursuing for example a class war agenda robust and with that sort of agenda would it be
03:01:20 and with that sort of agenda would it be fair to say that what they what they did was not initiate violence but stand up for themselves and retaliate well they would do that but if they got had the chance to get away with attacking someone then they would whilst we're with this document
03:01:36 would whilst we're with this document I'm going to digress onto another matter you could just go over the page to paragraph 18
03:01:55 please I was not uh tempted into drug taking since it was not a new experience for me to be in a drug taking culture the psychology department at Swansea University in the 78 to 81 period was almost universally into mind altering
03:02:09 almost universally into mind altering substances is that a reference to your own undergraduate studies uh it's a reference to um a particular openness and availability of certain um certainly for cannabis at that time I remember one of the drug dealers set up in the corner of the
03:02:22 dealers set up in the corner of the college bar and used to sell um there it was it was widely available I did however use cannabis in roll because it was necessary to become part of the
03:02:34 was necessary to become part of the Brixton Anarchist scene since leaving I have given up smoking and if anyone thinks cannabis is addictive they need their heads examined yes uh can I ask
03:02:46 their heads examined yes uh can I ask you whether you were given any guidance by your managers about taking control substances in your undercover role we did have a conversation about alcohol and um drugs as well yes that's right
03:02:59 and um drugs as well yes that's right and what was the guidance that you were given the verbal guidance I I remember was um don't drive under the influence so if you have drunk or if you have smoked a joint then make sure that you
03:03:10 smoked a joint then make sure that you it's out of your system before you drive and come home so no prohibition on taking control substance not that I remember no no uh being careful of restriction orders yes gave you that advice
03:03:37 please H
03:03:48 86 can we go to parag subp paragraph three shoplifting is a tradition in the brickton anak is scen from multinationals and dodgy businesses only it was necessary to break the law on a number of occasions and it is silly to
03:04:02 number of occasions and it is silly to pretend otherwise can I take it that you shoplifted um I was involved in shoplifting that's right yes yes as either as a a getaway driver that's bizarre to think of it now um did I
03:04:13 bizarre to think of it now um did I steal anything myself I don't think I did I don't remember taking part in that but the the case I was involved in was the um was stealing um vegetables from
03:04:25 the um was stealing um vegetables from Cent Garden out of the skips which is a technical theft of space of a
03:04:31 bin did you have any convers did you get any guidance from your managers before you deployed about um shoplifting no not specifically shoplifting no about crime committing crimes in your undercover
03:04:46 committing crimes in your undercover identity in general yeah so lowlevel stuff was um part of your your scene so it was expected You' be involved if you had any prior notice you could warn the office that it might take place but sometimes you just had to do
03:05:02 it did you inform your managers that you were shoplifting or conspiring or participating however uh conspiring is a big word which means you just stop off someone goes into a um a multinational
03:05:14 someone goes into a um a multinational and decides to Nick something and then comes out with it and we share it in the van that's sort what sort of level we talking about here did you tell your managers you were doing that probably not probably
03:05:32 that probably not probably not why didn't you tell them not really important there is a qualitative difference between say fly posting um and shoplifting because the latter is an offense of dishonesty isn't it yes
03:05:46 offense of dishonesty isn't it yes that's right yes did you not think it was appropriate to tell tell your managers that you were involved in crimes of dishonesty I would have done yes
03:05:57 but I'm just trying to if I set the scene you you turn up to a car park and Sarah was driving my van or driving the Beast or the pig the two um vehicles at brickston Hunt sabs had occasion I I drove one of them and someone would go
03:06:09 drove one of them and someone would go out and do something and come back and then you'd see someone sharing something in
03:06:16 in the in the back of the van my assumption is it was shoplifted they may have bought it I don't know but the you're asking about the chain of evidence here which is for a very minor offense and I may not be able to guarantee that the person that sto it is the person holding it so well what I'm asking is did you
03:06:32 it so well what I'm asking is did you tell your managers you were involved in this sort of activity I may have said generally that's what they do yeah absolutely but in terms of specifics it's
03:06:37 it's unlikely there certainly comes a point in this document where you do uh uh tell uh managers that you have been shoplifting if I use that in a a loose sense loose sense yes um what was their
03:06:54 reaction uh sorry I'm which which issue are we talking about which and shoplifting You' put it very frankly yes in this
03:07:05 put it very frankly yes in this postoperative debrief sometime in the middle of
03:07:11 middle of 1995 what is the reaction to saying that you've done that oh I see no what I said was it's necessary to break the law on a number of occasions it's to pretend otherwise and that was why I was was talking about nicking the
03:07:25 why I was was talking about nicking the veg out of um c garden which was what I was specifically involved in what was the manager's reaction to the fact you've been involved in crimes of dishonesty uh let's be precise about it there were four individuals arrested for it it was the great um the four we
03:07:38 it it was the great um the four we celebrated at the one:1 center and no no charges were brought because it was decided it wasn't theft in the end so that's I explain what happened and I told the story it was it that's what happened
03:07:48 happened and what was your manager's reaction I would guess it was a bit of a a smile about it I would I would guess small beer very small beer yeah yeah um can we take that down now
03:08:03 yeah um can we take that down now um and look at some of your reporting some further reporting on the bhsg can we have up first of all from paragraph 5 tab
03:08:14 tab 79 7446
03:08:16 79 7446 [Music]
03:08:17 [Music] 4
03:08:30 Z this uh is a report um about
03:08:41 about a hunt sabotage in the New Forest yes it says various uh hunt sabot groups have communicated with each other and have decided to organize a national hit on a hunt in the New Forest on the Saturday the 22nd of February and in Hunt
03:08:53 the 22nd of February and in Hunt sabotage terms that's a big deal isn't it yeah there was either a regional hit or a national Hit It generally was because someone had being seriously injured by a hunt and it would be
03:09:05 injured by a hunt and it would be retribution by whole variety of sabs more over the country coming to completely close down the hunt it is known that those hunt sabs from London who might have been expected to attend and cause problems will not take part as
03:09:26 and cause problems will not take part as they will be participating in the Roland Adams demonstration in London that day yeah did you go to the Roland Adam's demonstration that day I don't remember might you have
03:09:37 done it's a possibility but I'm I'd be surprised if I did I don't remember it why would you have done if you might have done it would be because I was part of the group
03:09:49 can we take that down now please a general
03:09:51 general question on the
03:09:54 the squatting
03:09:56 squatting counterculture class war side of the
03:10:12 bhsg how organized were they it's it's almost the the wrong thing to say that an anarchist is organized it's very difficult to describe it but there was some organization around um in particular individuals were quite canny and knew
03:10:23 individuals were quite canny and knew how to sort things out um but there's always a little bit of sort of
03:10:29 of unreliability um and sudden crises would happen because people weren't particularly well organized would it be fair to say that it's not so much that anarchists are disorganized it's that they organize in a different non-h hierarchical way
03:10:43 a different non-h hierarchical way they'd like you to believe that but the reality is somewhat different yeah you say more disorder well I would say they live a precarious life in
03:10:54 say they live a precarious life in squats and sometimes circumstances take over you get kicked out and all of a sudden you're on the street and um drug abuse tends to have some effect on your ability to reason did the
03:11:06 on your ability to reason did the brickton hunt sabotage group have official
03:11:13 official posts a chair oh gosh no no no that sort of but some someone would sort of start off something and other people would join it um but the the Practical effect was the individuals who were well organized tended to take the lead so it didn't have an equipment officer
03:11:34 um I seem to remember there was a report about I think I mentioned that role is that right yeah I'm asking you about that because afj the person who you reported to be an equipments officer has said that he wasn't and that there was no
03:11:43 no such the implication mean there's no such post he may have been involved in Hunt sabotage and may have been prominent but it's quite wrong to
03:12:00 prominent but it's quite wrong to portray the bhsg as having that level of formality would you accept that yeah I think someone would take on a role um I'm probably using a policing term to describe what he did which was at that time to be looking after kit like the radios and things like that um I'm going to move away from the
03:12:24 that um I'm going to move away from the BHS G now to alarm Earth First UK if we could have up from volume Five tab 31
03:12:38 22095 as you said your reporting isn't divided in a linear way no there's some overlap this is a report from the 11th of December sorry 11th of September 1991 and if we look at paragraph 2 I'll give you a moment to refresh your memory
03:12:54 give you a moment to refresh your memory but it's a report about plans to disrupt a fringe meeting at the labor Party Conference by alarm and Earth First
03:13:13 UK yeah I'm going to show you two more reports before I come to my questions if we could take that down now from volume 6 tab
03:13:16 6 tab c142 could we have 739
03:13:33 626 if we go to the main report thank you this is a telephone um I think a telephone report if not it's a memorandum to Commander to20 from Chief super from the chief
03:13:44 super from the chief superintendent um it's dated um well it's about an event it's dated the 8th of May about an event a week later disruption of traffic on the 15th of May 1992 and it's about a proposal to
03:14:00 1992 and it's about a proposal to disrupt traffic in central London I'll give you a moment to refresh your memory thank you that's fine
03:14:23 happy to continue yeah that's I'm I'm being told the next page is the event Pro former right um for the event itself and it's worth going to that um not least uh because towards the bottom
03:14:38 least uh because towards the bottom event advertised it says By Word of Mouth at Earth First gathering in Brighton during the weekend of the 18th to the 20th of April is this intelligence you reported I'm pretty oh
03:14:50 intelligence you reported I'm pretty oh it's karmageddon yes alarm was one I was struggling with but it's karmageddon
03:15:03 um yeah that's me I I guess that's in the pig and Paradise Pub and you you've got the intelligence by being on the ground have you being part of the I was a Founder member of Earth First UK so um that's how I got that
03:15:21 um what consideration was given to taking part in founding a political campaigning group sorry say again what thought was given to playing a founding role in a political campaigning group ah that
03:15:36 political campaigning group ah that founding is a very Grand word for just being there when it had its first meeting was there any discussion with your managers about that yes and what
03:15:50 your managers about that yes and what did they say it was part of my um change to my deployment when environmentalist issues started to arise so that I could cover
03:15:58 cover them I'm taking from that answer that there was a management interest on getting to the on the front foot of understanding what was going on I think so yeah when normally you if something new turned up that had a potential for
03:16:09 new turned up that had a potential for disruption disorder then we would try to report in it and become involved with it yes and then need to have that sorry to interrupt you it needed have the
03:16:21 interrupt you it needed have the anarchist element to it to for it to qualify to be part of my bag or be within South London thank you and the nature of the event was going to be named Carmageddon that's right yes if we go to in the same bundle sir to tab
03:16:34 bundle sir to tab 146
03:16:36 146 739 625
03:17:06 and we go to um page four please says received from a secret and reliable source and if we go to the middle
03:17:10 middle paragraph the latest campaign organized by privacy involves Earth First activists with members of London Green Peace London Green Party in the London cycling campaign in the karmageddon
03:17:21 cycling campaign in the karmageddon campaign the four groups have formed an umbrella organization reclaim the streets and under the leadership of privacy and London green party activist Shane Collins is is hel it held an
03:17:35 Shane Collins is is hel it held an international day of traffic action on Friday uh the 15th of May yes so is it right that this was the first RTS event probably yeah probably what
03:17:51 RTS event probably yeah probably what role did you play in the setting up of reclaim the streets I was just part of Earth First UK and I don't think I took any part in organizing anything what was the your
03:18:07 organizing anything what was the your manager's response to your reporting on the karmageddon event and the Genesis of Earth First and RTS difficult to remember anything
03:18:18 RTS difficult to remember anything precisely I would guess because I Contin to report on it they were happy for me to continue reporting on them to what extent without identifying any specific sources to what extent was special
03:18:34 sources to what extent was special Branch able to obtain intelligence about this sort of disruption from other
03:18:43 sources yes it's difficult to answer that one without straying into difficult areas I I agree um largely by Word of
03:18:50 Mouth could we take that uh down
03:19:07 please can we move on to the South London Animal Aid uh 1 of of October 1991 Volume 5 tap c33 sir 739
03:19:23 531 and if we go to the report itself please uh this is dated the um 1st of October
03:19:24 October 1991 the meat of the report is paragraphs 2 and three if we could have those blown up please and I will give you an opportunity to refresh your
03:19:44 memory yeah
03:19:54 um I get the impression from this report that by this stage You' you've actually had some prior involvement with South London Animal Aid even though this is your first report about the group is that fair yes I was probably
03:20:06 that fair yes I was probably establishing myself as I said I think earlier that anything in the South London that had animal in the title I'd pop along and have a look at and if in the same file we now go to tab 52744 618
03:20:30 eight uh this is this is a telephone uh message it's from h86 to the chief superintendent of C sad dated the 26th of November
03:20:45 dated the 26th of November 1991 if we look at the main body of the text first of all please the following information has been received from a secret and reliable source next Thursday the 28th of November 1991 I.E 2 days hence members of brickton hunt sabur
03:21:00 hence members of brickton hunt sabur group and South London Animal Aid intend to picket a circus which is performing that day in Colliers Wood sw19 it is a circus in which animals take part whether or not there is any
03:21:11 whether or not there is any confrontation will depend largely on the attitude taken by the circus management
03:21:23 attitude taken by the circus management and if we go down to the manuscript text underneath uh about 20 persons are expected to take part in the demonstration memo to be sent to to20 is this your reporting I guess so yeah I can't recall it
03:21:40 yeah I can't recall it directly it appears from the paperwork that you have come to hear about this plan protest and you are passing on intelligence about likely numbers SL ly demeanor of people and that is being
03:21:56 demeanor of people and that is being passed on to to20 public order yeah yeah to assist them to see if they needed to deploy any staff there to is that typical of the sort of intelligence that you were able to provide on SLA on everything the one of the things
03:22:09 SLA on everything the one of the things was if they're going to if any group is going to have a demonstration and there's a likelihood of there being confrontation whether they initiator or victims of it is to make sure that the the operational side know it's going on
03:22:21 the operational side know it's going on so if they can identify people that they can deploy to reduce that risk they could so yes this was just very common practice would it be fair to say that SLA was not itself as an
03:22:34 SLA was not itself as an organization involved in wrongdoing um no not as an organization I was more concerned about any reaction that came from the the circus folk that might have taken umbrage at them
03:22:49 might have taken umbrage at them arriving and and causing disorder and so can you help us with the purpose of infiltrating SLA originally it was to establish myself but that's where I met one particular individual who took me straight into the ALF eventually so it
03:23:01 straight into the ALF eventually so it was just about finding someone most of the people in slaa I thought we were find people who were um legitimately
03:23:12 find people who were um legitimately protesting about animal welfare and they were quite a respectable group really um a stepping stone yeah well part just to find out what they were like cuz I didn't know at the time I know they've been reported on before so I assume that there were individuals there who went along who
03:23:30 individuals there who went along who were more than just um an archetypal um legitimate protester but we're keen to get involved and so it proved I I connected to someone who was a particularly um interesting person to me London boots Action Group yes known colloquially as elbag elack yes November
03:23:46 colloquially as elbag elack yes November 1991 could we look at volume Five tab 15 [Music]
03:23:48 [Music] 574284
03:23:58 please if we go to the body of the report thank you this is a report 25th of November 1991 uh paragraph two um makes clear that this is the
03:24:13 um makes clear that this is the inaugural meeting of elbag and was well attended yes do you recall the event um not specifically no um I I'm sure I was there though could we go to paragraph
03:24:29 three I'll give you a moment to look at that but essentially it's uh Mr grait outlining that the campaigning activity
03:24:46 outlining that the campaigning activity is going to take the form of a series of pickets outside various branches of boots chemist in central London that was the quintessential campaigning activity that elbag undertook wasn't it that's right that was the regular picketing yeah and it was a single issue campaign focused
03:25:02 it was a single issue campaign focused on on boots and its involvement with Viv section yes that's right and there would be at these pickets um leafleting yes and in terms of
03:25:14 yes and in terms of criminality uh other than perhaps instances of obstructing the public Highway this is not U an organization that is in any way
03:25:30 organization that is in any way institutionally criminal is it um of itself no but it was the the most active Animal Rights group in London at the time and a lot of people who went along who would be ostensibly entirely law abiding when
03:25:42 ostensibly entirely law abiding when they were taking part in that event were also those that were prepared to do criminal activity so it was the way that you could go out there regularly and meet up with your colleagues and protest
03:25:54 meet up with your colleagues and protest lawfully um but also still be in contact with those who you knew that were involved in activities that were less than lawful but at these particular events it was always lawful the Mia in which you might meet people you were
03:26:09 which you might meet people you were actually required to Target exactly yes exactly that can we go to paragraph seven please
03:26:22 after the break Alf press officer Robin Webb spoke in guarded terms about the illegal activities of Alf activists and gave an interesting explanation of the Lucas a HS web stated that there was no
03:26:38 Lucas a HS web stated that there was no Alf plot to contaminate Lucas a however because of Alf infiltration of the animal rights National index the police believe that a large scale contamination was about to be perpetrated against Smith Klein beum and thus several
03:26:53 Smith Klein beum and thus several million pounds of the company's profit was lost due to the recall of their Lucas a product from retail outlets He also mentioned that all of those activists arrested had since been released on police bail was what Mr Webb
03:27:13 released on police bail was what Mr Webb is reported to have said at this meeting of particular interest to your managers
03:27:20 just reading that again it's just classic Robin the way he used to talk and he was very very good speaker and very
03:27:35 engaging I'm reporting what he said I don't think that the Lucas said hoax was a hoax I think it was real on what basis do you think it was
03:27:48 real it's fague I vague memories of this taking place when I was on the desk so I'm I'm pretty sure that there were samples tested that were CH were were proven to be contaminated at the time I'm I'm really stretching here my memory isn't
03:28:03 good did you communicate that view to your
03:28:12 managers which view that it wasn't a hoax I think we knew it wasn't a hoax I'm reporting what he said as I said he's a very engaging competent speaker very good at uh dare I say Rabel rousing
03:28:27 very good at uh dare I say Rabel rousing probably the next phrase however because of Alf infiltration of uh the animal rights National index Arie did the assertion that the AL had
03:28:39 Arie did the assertion that the AL had infiltrated Arie cause you any concern um
03:28:48 no why not because it's rubbish how did you know it was rubbish because it is clearly
03:28:54 clearly rubbish just knowing the structure of Arie and and um yeah it's just it's Robin being Robin did it elicit any interest from your managers that you'd report I can't
03:29:05 your managers that you'd report I can't remember I I submitted the report and it then wended its merry way to the relevant
03:29:12 relevant people could we take this down please and have up from Volume 7 tab c210 739 789
03:29:27 uh if we go to the main body thank you uh this is an upto-date an information performer date of the 10th of uh December 1992 so just over a year after the report we were just looking at yeah
03:29:40 the report we were just looking at yeah what's particularly striking about it as I'm sure you've already noticed is it's about you
03:29:42 about you yes
03:29:48 yes um so and if we go over the page to see who signed it this has come from h86 who at the time was the DCI of the SDS so this
03:30:02 time was the DCI of the SDS so this report about you is going from the SDS to be
03:30:04 to be filed
03:30:11 filed yes why is a report about you being put into the filing system Well normally you to avoid having your identity put into reports and when I was writing reports where I was
03:30:23 I was writing reports where I was present at something I normally wouldn't put my identity in unless there were very very few people there really the idea is to is in terms of security you don't want to be part of the chain of intelligence so that officers are wasting time investigating
03:30:36 officers are wasting time investigating you um but they got a stage and I can't remember exactly what it was something happened um and then it was decided in the management that it was a good idea to actually have me identified fully um but to probably write me down as a I
03:30:51 but to probably write me down as a I think it says here as a quiet individual who rarely contributes to discussions but is committed to animal rights activity so it doesn't sort of highlight me particularly above any others but it puts me in the role and doing certain
03:31:02 puts me in the role and doing certain things was it because of a fear of an Insider threat no what would be the purpose of having a report about you on the files if it was not to protect against that particular
03:31:14 not to protect against that particular threat no there was something else about uh
03:31:20 there may have been another report coming in because my van had been seen around and maybe another special Branch was doing inquiries I'm guessing here but it wasn't to do with the Ary threat no or any other Insider threat no
03:31:40 no I'm struggling to understand why this would be necessary then can you help us any
03:31:45 further I I've tried the best I can it is difficult to remember but it certainly wasn't to deal with any sort of Insider threat I think I think I'd become known in um the regional forces as being involved and so there may have
03:31:59 as being involved and so there may have been requests coming from to identify me that's
03:32:01 that's possible that would be to protect operational security I think so yeah yeah um can we take that down now please um did you have any involvement
03:32:20 please um did you have any involvement in producing the newsletter for elag I think I wrote a couple of Articles yes did you volunteer to do that yes you have been described as behaving in a manner that was talkative eager to please and voicing support for direct
03:32:39 please and voicing support for direct action does that fairly represent the way it's quite a summary but yes I suppose yeah all of those will be relevant
03:32:50 can we go now please in file five to tap c92
03:32:52 c92 744
03:33:05 893 this is a report um it's got an Earth's first component but I'm asking you the question because of what it says about the Lambeth green party right it's an event performer 9th of March 1992 if we look at the text at the bottom
03:33:24 please during the Earth First Road show at the squatted Dole office in Cold Harbor Lane Shane Collins announced that in the next two weeks it was expected that McDonald's will begin refurbishment of a carpet warehouse on the corner of
03:33:35 of a carpet warehouse on the corner of AAL Lane sw2 and brickton Road SW9 into a large McDonald's restaurant Outlet as soon as work begins Collins and other members of Lambeth green party are
03:33:55 members of Lambeth green party are planning to blockade the road outside by sitdown protest thereby causing traffic chaos in the area he asked for any interested parties if we could go over the page
03:34:12 please at the Earth First Road Show to provide him with contact numbers so that he can arrange for mobilization meeting to take place at a later date about 15 of those present expressed an interest
03:34:23 of those present expressed an interest in taking part in such a protest um why were you reporting this because the squatted doll office was squatted by the anarchists around Brixton brickton htab type people class war people if they
03:34:36 type people class war people if they were um bothered to go and turn up then there's a potential of disorder from them and why were you reporting on a meeting that was organized by a party that participates in the Democratic
03:34:51 that participates in the Democratic process they turned up and did this um presentation at a meeting and um they were encouraging members of the scotton community to get
03:35:03 community to get involved would it be fair to say that even if a party is involved in the Democratic process if it might be involved in something which would disturb the Queen's peace it'll be reported
03:35:12 reported anyway yeah I wasn't so much worried about um the green party it was the people that might be attracted who would be exactly that
03:35:26 problem uh can we take that down now and go in file two tab B little 113 7461
03:35:38 168 and if we could go um at the top of the page this is an SDS briefing note under the subheading 29th of June 92 Andy Kohl's mentioned again that the suspicions regarding hn1 had been raised by his group George Etc Jeff Shephard
03:35:52 by his group George Etc Jeff Shephard also has been making inquiries they seem to be on the same theme I.E a journalist they also seem to think his bleep is too expensive a model for his occupation
03:36:05 expensive a model for his occupation this is in fact this in fact is not the case but it is a perception that is damaging they seem to think some sort of expose will occur probably against George there is still doubt in their
03:36:22 George there is still doubt in their minds and he has to persevere whether or not he is withdrawn in the long term this is because we do not wish to compound any submission any suspicion by a sudden exit so is it right that you've reported back to your manager um
03:36:36 reported back to your manager um information you've gleaned to the effect that hn1 is suspected of being a journalist um I'm reporting that the character George is
03:36:50 character George is um pointing hm1 is potentially um an informant or a journalist and if we could go down the page please on the positive
03:37:01 please on the positive side he will have to win their confidence by taking part in some illegal act which is not exposed or some sort of public order arrest whether they will trust him to do
03:37:14 arrest whether they will trust him to do this is a problem there is a good chance they will try and set him up in the near future um and if we can go to the end of the document to see who that's signed by
03:37:33 please H DCI n86
03:37:39 n86 yes so the sentence on the positive side he will have to win their confidence by taking part in some illegal act which is not exposed or some sort of public order arrest does that sentiment accurately
03:37:57 arrest does that sentiment accurately Rec is it accurately reflecting the SDS view
03:38:04 view of committing criminal Acts or getting arrested it reflects the right of passage of becoming accepted within the ALF is that you had to be seen to be
03:38:18 ALF is that you had to be seen to be doing something illegal so that they had knowledge that you would do that and I think they beli that if you did that that you couldn't possibly be an undercover cop because you were committing crime in my case I think the one that I remember was of one individual asking me to go out and spray butcher windows with hydrofluoric acid it wasn't actually hydrofluoric acid but
03:38:32 it wasn't actually hydrofluoric acid but that's what they told me it was it's the classic thing of a a gif lemon squeezy bottle was the was the common weapon you go out squirt um Anarchist and they left symbols on the window the theory was
03:38:43 symbols on the window the theory was that the etching fluid would then leave that in the window so it was often a test that um well it was a test I was given to see if I was prepared to take part in criminal activity so I guess
03:38:54 part in criminal activity so I guess that's the where that's coming from is you do um gain more trust once you're seem to be um taking that sort of step in support of the animal Liberation struggle and then you you become more
03:39:06 struggle and then you you become more accepted and when you you've described an example did you spray what you had been told was hydrochloric acid on to Windows I did yes it wasn't hydrophic I
03:39:18 Windows I did yes it wasn't hydrophic I there was no damage done did you believe it to be
03:39:27 yes is the conundrum of the central dilemma of trying to infiltrate the ALF that you have to get involved in crime before you're going to be invited into a cell you have to be seen to have the bottle yeah be the way that they
03:39:44 the bottle yeah be the way that they would look at it and to be trusted often you you'd have um people who would be sort of
03:39:46 sort of looking as if they were suitable and that was the way you would approach them would be to see if they' be prepared to do something like that it had to be criminal um but it needn't necessarily be
03:39:58 be real if you could fake it that was good enough so
03:40:00 enough so the activists who were thinking of making an approach to someone would test them with a false test is that well that's that's what happened to me I can't unless the person didn't know how
03:40:12 can't unless the person didn't know how to mix hydrochloric acid of course that could have been the case too and to be invited to do serious things into cells doing serious crimes you needed
03:40:23 needed to show that you were up for it yeah
03:40:34 exactly what did hn 86 say to you on the subject did you ever discuss it with him I think we had a discussion about this problem um in fact I remember it the the reason why hm1 was suspected was because he walked through a flock of pigeons in trafala square and didn't look where he was going it say minor as that I mean
03:40:46 was going it say minor as that I mean the level of paranoia here is is really off the scale particularly when you come to talking about George I'm more
03:40:59 to talking about George I'm more interested in the commission of crime in order to gain acceptance and OB achieve your
03:41:02 your objective it was known that this is what you had to
03:41:09 do how was it known it was common practice that it happened before happened before derived from the deployment of previous officers Bob Lambert and John D I guess yeah can we take that down now please
03:41:23 yeah can we take that down now please sir would this be a convenient moment to stop for lunch certainly um give ourselves an extra minute and resume at 5
03:41:44 2 e