Afternoon session examining HN2 Andrew Coles about his relationship with Jessica, his involvement in animal rights activism, and contradictions in his testimony about the nature of their relationship. Contentious questioning about conspiracy to pervert justice allegations and witness credibility.
00:24:57 e e
00:25:50 this afternoon's proceedings are being live streamed those with electronic devices may use them to report what they hear in the hearing room but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event
00:26:05 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're reporting such devices may not be used to record or photograph Mr thank you sir could we start uh with please with a document at volume six tab c202 document number
00:26:20 22103 please
00:26:36 for
00:27:10 want to make sure we've got the
00:27:13 right can we go to 006
00:27:24 please so so underscore 006 thank you very much um this is a up toate performer about an individual it's dated the 2nd of uh November 1992 Mr Kohl's
00:27:35 the 2nd of uh November 1992 Mr Kohl's and as you will see attributed as your intelligence um it's about a man who's described as 5411 slim and it says
00:27:49 described as 5411 slim and it says privacy has previously been identified as surname unknown or occasionally privacy he is a leading light at the 56a
00:28:00 privacy he is a leading light at the 56a Bookshop he was one of those arrested at waterl on the 12th of September in the clash between anti-fascist and skin heads that is a reference isn't it to what became known colloquially as the Battle of watero I think you're right yes yeah did you attend the Battle of
00:28:12 yes yeah did you attend the Battle of watero no I didn't no can we take that down now please uh I want to move on now to the AL support group and uh it's right isn't it that
00:28:34 group and uh it's right isn't it that part of your Tet targeting strategy as it developed was to get involved with the
00:28:35 the alfsg as a way of furthering your deployment that was my original Target actually yes but other bits came in the way after the original decision can we look at Volume
00:28:47 look at Volume 8 document 742
00:28:57 287
00:52:25 e e
00:53:25 which says it was the officers who saw the culprit and moved mov in to make an arrest I think that's right yeah yeah um being very careful with restriction ORD writing it down if you need to do so who was arrested for throwing the
00:53:51 bag I'm afraid I can't remember if it was in which order it was I'm I'm not sure um
00:53:57 I can't remember I'm sorry
00:54:07 no can we go take that down and go to file 2 tab B little 156
00:54:27 747452 and if we could have that the text of that blown up the is much later this is an moiu document from 2002 so a decade after the
00:54:39 after the events this is my report about my injury yeah yeah it's a reporting an injury on that occasion yeah so on the evening of the 5th of March 1992 when deployed covertly as a member of mpsb I was on
00:54:54 covertly as a member of mpsb I was on duty at the groer house hotel to provide coverage of a protest by hunt sabar at the horse and Hounds ball I was with a group of animal rights extremists in a coralled area at the north side of the
00:55:09 coralled area at the north side of the main entrance to the hotel Ballroom in Park Lane the area was surrounded by metal barriers and The Cordon was supplemented by Road at the roadside by uniform officers including a tsg seral for most of the protest I took a position at the front of the group of
00:55:21 position at the front of the group of protesters at the southwest corner of the Corral with my back to the police line lines facing the entrance door to the hotel and the group of
00:55:36 the hotel and the group of protesters how were you involved in a strong conversation with a police officer if you had your back to the police lines um it's sort of on a curve like that so I probably had my back to one and I was talking to someone here
00:55:48 one and I was talking to someone here looking towards the entrance it's sort of a curve barrier the protest was attended by approximately 30 to 40 activists yeah that is a considerably
00:56:02 activists yeah that is a considerably smaller number than the one we saw in the Contemporary report that's it's about 40 or 50 at that location here is a long time after the incident and I'm working from memory so I might have got that figure slightly wrong and was loud
00:56:13 that figure slightly wrong and was loud and animated persons attending the ball were drawing up in vehicles outside the Park Lane entrance and faced a loud barrage of noise from the protesters at one point a white stretched limousine
00:56:25 one point a white stretched limousine pulled up at the Ball Room entrance and two expensively dressed women got out of the car both were wearing pale colored fur coats which had the name of a fur
00:56:37 fur coats which had the name of a fur shop shaved into the pelts on the back of the coats their arrival caused an angry response from the activists who
00:56:49 angry response from the activists who believe that the women were connected to a fer business as the abuse became more pointed and the activist more animated from the Southeastern corner of the Corral two flower bombs were thrown at two women I was looking at the that corner at the time and identified the activists responsible for the attack
00:57:03 activists responsible for the attack yeah I think I did act um identify them afterwards this isn't as I said this is some time after the incident took place and I'm writing about my injury on duty it's not entirely accurate from my
00:57:17 it's not entirely accurate from my reporting on this one compared to the 1992 one which would have been more accurate you've told you just a mo just a moment ago that you weren't looking at where the FL I was I know so this is
00:57:35 where the FL I was I know so this is this is incorrect it's it's it's Mis um misremembered if you like why were you claiming responsibility for being an eyewitness to the attackers when you weren't in 2002 uh well I didn't see the the I wasn't an eyewitness to it I I'm
00:57:46 wasn't an eyewitness to it I I'm imagining that I'm mixing up what happened that day to later information when they were identified through the process and I think I've mixed the two up
00:57:57 up at that point a group of police officers entered the Corral to arrest persons and then you describe a struggle and you do so in terms which make no criticism of
00:58:12 so in terms which make no criticism of the police officers no no no it was they were charging suit to arrest someone I got in the
00:58:23 way did you come to learn that Jessica was one of the people arrested yes that's right but I can't remember whether it was the first one or the second one that's my problem did you see Jessica being arrested or
00:58:37 did you see Jessica being arrested or were you uh too involved in the melee I saw her being taken away but I didn't see her throwing so that might be where this mixup
00:58:49 is and is it right uh that subsequently Jessica vly protested her innocence yes
00:59:04 can we take that down please did you have any reason to doubt her protestations of Innocence yes
00:59:13 why just she was at that location I mean I didn't see her throw but she was in that corner where it came from it could have been one of I think three people that were involved so it was a one in three chance she she was
00:59:26 three chance she she was involved but nothing more than that no I didn't see her physically do it but is one in three possible um suspects can we have up from volume six document 742
00:59:37 742 251
00:59:50 please and if we go to page three thank you this is an event performer about an event on the 28th of April 1992 said to be an organ the or organization is said to be the South London and CI animal rights activists
01:00:05 London and CI animal rights activists said to be a planning meeting at which 10 people attended if we look at the text
01:00:07 text please animal rights activists from London and Sur held this meeting at the home of privacy's parents to prepare the defense of privacy and Jessica for their forthcoming trial to be held at privacy
01:00:24 forthcoming trial to be held at privacy magistrates court on charges relating to the anti-hunt demonstration out outside the horse and Hounds ball at the grovner house hotel in March
01:00:38 house hotel in March 1992 of those present privacy privacy privacy privacy Walter Andrea McAn privacy and Jessica stated their intention to give evidence for the defense and if we can just go over the page we see the names of those um you
01:00:51 page we see the names of those um you were able to identify and this report is submitted by DCI h& 86 yes this is your this is based on your intelligence isn't it yes that's right were you at the
01:01:03 it yes that's right were you at the meeting I've been trying to remember that I remember where the subject was Andre mcana not Jessica that's what is in my mind but I probably was there yes
01:01:16 in my mind but I probably was there yes it may be that the two cases were dealt with at the same time and what did you mean by prepare the
01:01:30 the defense um concoct a defense that would limit their um responsibility for the attack you say concoct I'm inferring from that that you are asserting this was a dishonest exercise
01:01:42 was a dishonest exercise yes to pervert the course of Justice if you like
01:01:43 you like yes why doesn't the report say
01:01:57 that don't know it seems It's a it's a proor rather than a full report so it's probably just very brief
01:02:05 response all it states is that certain people are going to give evidence for
01:02:17 people are going to give evidence for the defense yes presumably if there had been a dishonest conspiracy to pervert the course of Justice you would have spelled that out I gave that information I mean this is a proor of an event I don't know
01:02:34 is a proor of an event I don't know whether this is a s ized version and the other more secret detail that I was um adding was was elsewhere you haven't been able to find that I understand there would be no need to sanitize particulars of a conspiracy to pervert the course of Justice would there sanitize my involvement or my presence
01:02:47 sanitize my involvement or my presence there is what I mean um my question is directed at the substance of the EV at the meeting yeah yeah if there had been a conspiracy to pervert the the
01:02:58 had been a conspiracy to pervert the the course of Justice this report would have said so wouldn't it it's an event perform it's not a a proper report I I can only say that there would probably be another report which was more in
01:03:13 depth if that's right what if anything was done about your reporting a conspiracy to pervert the course of Justice not my call I I reported it as um I normally did and it went into the system did you speak to any of your
01:03:25 system did you speak to any of your managers about it uh they would have seen the report um I don't recall the conversation I mean I remember the the case and I remember the different um descriptions about what people should
01:03:40 descriptions about what people should say and what they said they saw and and who was to take a particular line was there any
01:03:41 there any discussion about what should be
01:03:52 discussion about what should be done so discussion with whom sorry well if what happened at this meeting was a conspiracy to pervert the course of Justice yes presumably your managers would have been anxious to do something about that it depends on how vulnerable I would have been had that been reported it may have been too difficult to deal
01:04:08 it may have been too difficult to deal with because it would have exposed me as the source was there any discussion to that effect I don't remember it but that's that seems logical to me that's probably why this is a very redacted performer rather than the full
01:04:20 performer rather than the full report it's a true position that Jessica vly protested her innocence there was a meeting which was is not a dishonest
01:04:32 is not a dishonest conspiracy which you have reported in terms which are not asserting any wrongdoing my memory of it is to do with Andrea mcgan and her defense not to do with Jessica or with
01:04:47 defense not to do with Jessica or with any other person so my memory is that it was to do with her and her appearance and what is your recollection of Andrea mcan's defense of this same process of trying to work what to say that she was innocent of what she was being accused
01:05:02 innocent of what she was being accused of and someone else was responsible or there were eyon witnesses to the fact she didn't do what it was said she did and had presumably you did not know whether Andrea McAn had thrown any
01:05:15 whether Andrea McAn had thrown any flower no I didn't see no no I just saw where the officers went and the people that they arrested Jessica's evidence was that after she'd been arrested and injured in the process of arrest uh she hadn't been able to see what had happened and wanted to know from her
01:05:27 happened and wanted to know from her friends uh who were present what had happened when she was not able to see for herself right does that fairly summarize what she was seeking from the meeting I don't know that's that's what
01:05:39 meeting I don't know that's that's what she thinks it was about it's not what I
01:05:48 believe as I say it was about Andrew McAn more than more than her um the Privacy redaction over organiz
01:06:01 um the Privacy redaction over organiz other organization is not Andrea mcan's name nor
01:06:03 name nor is the place um anything to do with Manan it's to do with somebody's parents would the
01:06:18 with somebody's parents would the document have had Manan as the organizer other organizations if that was the purpose of the meeting
01:06:33 I remember going to the meeting about the people who were arrested and it was at someone's address but in my mind it was somewhere else but um again my memory is not particularly brilliant in terms of where it where it took place I do remember being surprised at the amount of
01:06:43 um what's the word I'm looking for
01:06:53 um people working together to come up with a with a story that um they were all comfortable with
01:07:02 um can we take that document down now and move to Jessica in particular yeah uh in 1992 she was 19 years old
01:07:20 1992 she was 19 years old was and you were 32 years old yes and you had a cover identity by which you were purported to be 28 years old yes did you tell Jessica that you were 24 years old
01:07:47 no you did you know Jessica to be someone who had left home in her mid
01:07:59 teens and the first time I knew where she lived she was living with her
01:08:08 living with her parents that was one of the first times I met her so your recollection is when you met her she was living with her parents but then shortly moved out
01:08:18 yeah you've been shown some photographs of Jessica that would taken in France after her job there had ended and she went back to get her bicycle according to her
01:08:32 to her evidence she was a young looking 19y old wasn't she
01:08:49 yes making her way on her own in London on your recollection for the first time not on her own she was with um other animal rights people she knew from sapping away from her family away from the family yeah she's with a close friend as well we moved
01:09:02 moved together at the time was your cover address in
01:09:10 stram um I'm not sure I moved from one address to strums possibly yes and she at the time was living in a shared house in East London yes that's right some miles from stram yes
01:09:29 right some miles from stram yes and that house uh had contained amongst others Jessica's Room yes that was a room with one bed with a mattress and one Divan without a mattress
01:09:47 correct there was a housemate in the house who had a portable television in her
01:09:51 her room right yes possibly there was a television I don't know if it was portable or not I don't I can't remember and there was a living room
01:10:02 yeah and you made it your business to frequent that house uh oh not for mainly on Wednesdays i' take
01:10:14 for mainly on Wednesdays i' take everybody back there from the meeting of elbag so it' be one Wednesday a month something like that I go back and drop them
01:10:24 them off and go into the house sometimes yeah where there occasion s when you would turn up without a specific invitation or Reason possibly
01:10:35 Reason possibly yeah
01:10:38 yeah why
01:10:40 why uh depends on the timing but I think
01:10:57 it because Jessica had been identified to me as an Alf activist I was very keen to get um close to her so that I could hope get recruited into the same um group that she was involved in who identified Jessica to you as an Al activist let me just check the
01:11:15 names JRA when it was in a Sab um in the winter and across the valley where we were there was Jessica read many and I
01:11:32 were there was Jessica read many and I said to him we'd become quite friendly he
01:11:38 he we had a number of discussions about things particularly the thing that just sticks in my mind is the fact that he was Benny Hills in B which was something that really stuck in my mind he was a um worked in a an Undertakers and I I was a bit concerned
01:11:49 Undertakers and I I was a bit concerned about identifying who was around me this red mini turned up from nowhere I hadn't seen it before who's that and he said oh that's the Alf girls and I thought he was joking with me and I said don't be
01:12:00 was joking with me and I said don't be serious but what are you talking about said no that's the ALF girls oh right okay so then it was my job to try and get close to them at some time in the future did he give any specifics no no no not at
01:12:16 all and when you went to the house you would talk watch television that sort of thing with the people there well hold on no this this is a long time in the future that's stage I hadn't had a
01:12:27 future that's stage I hadn't had a chance to meet with her and I was trying to find some way of being able to uh meet with her in a in a way that may mean that she would see me in a favorable light as a potential recruit that didn't happen until she had a a
01:12:40 that didn't happen until she had a a breakdown I managed to um assist her by Turing her home when was that I think the 1991 1992 Hunt season I can't be specific on the date but it was while she was still living at a parents
01:13:00 while she was still living at a parents address but by the time she is living in East London and you are frequenting the house from time to time yes I am yeah you are talking to people you are watching television there is that right occasionally many on these Wednesday evenings after after L boots Action
01:13:12 evenings after after L boots Action Group and you are essentially trying to inv vagle your way in in the home they become a close friend yeah that's
01:13:16 right did you often watch television
01:13:30 there no not not very often no did there come an occasion when you were watching television with Jessica and you moved forward and kissed her
01:13:43 no are you certain about
01:13:49 that I mean it's it's difficult to know
01:13:57 whether some times you you you greet each other with a hug that sort of thing was was not unusual um it's difficult to remember it's just what's normal so social interaction with
01:14:15 people was that kiss the beginning of what became a sexual relationship that's what she
01:14:19 what she says what's your version of events
01:14:22 events um from what I remember um
01:14:29 I I stayed over well let me go back to the beginning because it's probably important I get this get this right so you understand the situation there was a time when we were told that um investigative journalists would be getting involved in South
01:14:42 would be getting involved in South London animal rights and I was thought to be very careful about moving to and from my
01:14:49 from my um my flat in South London just in case I was followed off that later was identified as the beam into silver program so um and it was their expose of the Sur Union hunt and also Brixton hunt
01:15:01 and also Brixton hunt sabs at the time I didn't know what was going on in terms of who it was and what they were doing so I decided to take up a regular offer I had from the um the activists who lived at that East
01:15:16 um the activists who lived at that East London address um often I'd pick them up I'd never drink when I'm driving they used to say well you should come back to us have a have a drink on us because you're always giving us a lift I declined it and declined it but when this being silver inquiry started I
01:15:29 this being silver inquiry started I didn't know it was them at the time when this investigative journalist inquiry started I decided that the best thing as a cutout from elbag was to go to another address and not go directly to my own which is why I went to the east east
01:15:41 which is why I went to the east east London address so that's the time that this sort of thing is is um is going on and then I also had always said if I'm drinking I'm not driving and so um they said well you can stay
01:15:55 stay over and on one occasion um I stayed over on a little sofa there um extremely and at this stage I'd also got my injury so I'd actually got a a bit of a slip disc and I was um
01:16:09 a bit of a slip disc and I was um struggling so I I stayed on that so it was appallingly uncomfortable so that was that I went off um the next time I came um Jessica said well there's a the dog bed I think she called it there was
01:16:24 dog bed I think she called it there was this extra bed on the in her room that I could uh sleep on which I did it was very uncomfortable and on the third occasion the same thing
01:16:35 and on the third occasion the same thing but this time she invited me to sleep in her bed because of my back pain so this idea of um watching telly and then having an initiation of a sexual relationship is not accurate what actually happened was I was staying over and she just invited me to sleep in her bed which had a mattress with her with her yes that's right single single bed
01:16:48 right single single bed yeah the journalists yes when were you
01:17:04 yeah the journalists yes when were you warned that there might be investigative journalists moving in the same circles as you I can't remember exactly who by
01:17:10 by um the office the management um sorry about this the
01:17:20 name 86 the program aired in February 1993 right does that help you probably yes what is your best recollection of
01:17:35 yes what is your best recollection of when you were warned by hn 86 that there were investigative journalists floating
01:17:43 around I can't remember it it was that winter it was that um Hunt season um there was a whole series of things that they did so I think and I don't know what the lead time was for the BBC
01:17:59 know what the lead time was for the BBC um if it was the BBC um broadcast times but how did hn 86 know about the activities of undercover journalists I
01:18:15 activities of undercover journalists I don't know my guess is that there was an inquiry from the BBC um about something but I don't know I don't know how he knew
01:18:26 that and what was your concern about being identified um being followed back to my home address and being
01:18:29 being exposed to your real home to my real home address yeah wasn't the answer to that conundrum simply to go and stay at your Duff address I didn't want that to be
01:18:43 address I didn't want that to be connected to me either I beg your pardon if if in the future the BBC investigative journalist want to have another look and by which time I didn't know what was going on I could very easily have gone directly from that address to my home address so I wanted
01:18:56 address to my home address so I wanted to cut out the involve either my false address or my home address because they had the resources to mount a surveillance that would not be something like the animal rights movement could do which would probably
01:19:07 movement could do which would probably be one car or something like that if I could explain going home was not a simple matter of just leaving the uh the flat in South London and then driving home I used to drive off at 2:00 in the morning I would be taking a Securus
01:19:23 morning I would be taking a Securus route I used to stop off in Hackney Park up the van walk away from it for about half a mile across an open Green Space and watch it for at least half an hour to an hour before I got in and went away again so I was extremely careful about
01:19:36 again so I was extremely careful about my address potentially being exposed by someone knowing where my Duff address was I was very careful about my personal space in my family home and presumably there were concerns anyway
01:19:48 anyway about the people you were mixing with and spying on doing something similar that was always the wor that's why I had that um rather protracted process to make sure I was clean before I went home
01:20:03 make sure I was clean before I went home but that didn't stop you using your Duff address um in what way well what I mean is um that was the entire purpose of the duff address it was somewhere for you to stay as part of your Legend yes but it
01:20:21 stay as part of your Legend yes but it wasn't a secure thing it's only one stop between there and my real home address so what I'm talking about here is a specific and unknown threat of investigative journalists of the BBC following you about and following you about for more than just your first stop and you're suggesting that a BBC journalist would be mounting 24hour
01:20:33 journalist would be mounting 24hour surveillance on your flat um no I'm suggesting that by not having a cutout there was a potential that they could follow me back to my home address I wasn't prepared to take that risk
01:21:05 drink driving yeah so you're saying that to avoid drink driving you were invited to stay it's part of my cover always I said I don't drink and drive whilst you were
01:21:21 drive whilst you were sleeping in Jessica's single bed yes was there any physical contact between you well we'd be touching in the bed yes it's a very small single bed was there any contact of a sexual nature no you sure about that I'm absolutely
01:21:36 sure why didn't you sleep somewhere else to avoid the concerns and not sleep in the single bed of a
01:21:46 of a 19-year-old I was staying with a fellow activist and it wasn't unusual to share your bed with someone I did it from time to time in in my dodgy address on a
01:21:59 to time in in my dodgy address on a regular basis beforehand in in the other address as well that people would come and stay with you and it was perfectly normal also during cubbing during the hunt two or three people would stay over this this was just how you managed um to manage the business of
01:22:17 activism why didn't you find a way of avoiding that sort of close physical contact with a 19-year-old member of the opposite sex sex there was no issue with me being that close to an activist it
01:22:32 me being that close to an activist it had happened before it happened later it was perfectly normal is the truth that you started a sexual relationship with Jesse no that's not true that you attended the house
01:22:49 not true that you attended the house perhaps as often as four to five times a week to pursue that sexual relationship once a month probably
01:22:59 and um was the understanding that it was a monogamous sexual relationship it wasn't a sexual relationship it was an activist
01:23:08 activist relationship could we um have your witness statement up please
01:23:21 35074 can we have page 139
01:23:39 please paragraph
01:23:47 295 I did not share a bed with Jessica in Jessica's East London address on any occasion that I can remember how however I did sleep in her bedroom on at least
01:24:02 I did sleep in her bedroom on at least two occasions as described at paragraph 290
01:24:07 290 above I accept that I told the risk assessors I had shared AB bed with Jessica on five or six occasions but I now recognize that I was confusing Jessica with Andrea Manan
01:24:18 Jessica with Andrea Manan yes why in a statement the truth of which you confirmed to me this morning did you say you did not share a bed with Jessica in her East London address and
01:24:33 Jessica in her East London address and are you now telling me on oath that in fact you
01:24:37 fact you did I'm comfortable with what I've just told you that I remember I got very confused when I spoke to the assessors originally about who'd been whom and I then recalled later on that it was
01:24:50 then recalled later on that it was Andrea McAn that stayed with me for about a week when she became homeless um
01:24:56 I think I'm right what I've just said I think it's right that I certainly remember staying in her bedroom on the dog bed and I think I stayed on the mattress on the third occasion I think that's right I I didn't get that right on this particular occasion it's been
01:25:10 on this particular occasion it's been quite difficult to remember exactly what happened
01:25:19 here sleeping in a b single bed with a 19yearold member of the opposite sex yeah is something you would remember isn't it
01:25:32 isn't it I remember parts of the conversation um that we had um as I've said I think I think I stayed that one occasion the third occasion I certainly remember sleeping on the sofa I remember sleeping on the dog bed and I think I also slept with her
01:25:41 with her but can I come back and maybe mixing this up with Andrew McAn it's it's a difficult thing to remember can I come back to my question yeah why have you
01:25:53 back to my question yeah why have you signed a witness statement saying I did not share a bed with Jessica and give evidence today that you
01:26:01 did it's that problem about trying to remember that far back about who I did sleep with and who I didn't sleep with and who was in my bed and who was in someone else's bed I'm pretty confident I'm pretty confident I did
01:26:12 confident I'm pretty confident I did sleep with her on one occasion in her single bed I think that's right Jessica and Andrea Manan are physically very different aren't they
01:26:24 physically very different aren't they yes but there's a said there were others that um came to stay as well can we take that down now
01:26:42 please great hooky Farm yes there was an animal Liberation action at the farm wasn't
01:26:43 wasn't there yes that's right did you drive on that action uh I was one of the drivers yes how many vehicles were there
01:26:58 vehicles were there four I think what is your recollection of when it
01:27:04 occurred I'm not sure of the date I don't know if that's before us on a on a report it was quite a long process going there I
01:27:14 there I think I was initially approached and asked if I would drive later on I was then shown where it was and that's when I had a conversation with a particular individual about my
01:27:27 involvement I think we then did a
01:27:39 Recon then there was an occasion when we were going to go and do the Liberation raid and it was interrupted because a group
01:27:40 group of um soldiers were there and so we aborted and then I think it would be the fifth occasion was when the actual event took place so we're talking about quite a period of time
01:27:57 talking about quite a period of time here I'm not exactly clear on the dates our understanding is the raid itself happened on in June of 1992 would you disag I accept that yeah I'm not entirely sure of the date being very careful about privacy
01:28:09 date being very careful about privacy using the cipher list or writing it down if needs be who asked you to be The
01:28:19 Driver ASW
01:28:35 did you play a role recruiting other activists to join the action
01:28:43 action no I I was the new boy so no Jessica's evidence is that you persuaded her to join the action did you no the opposite I I remember um going to one of the
01:28:54 I I remember um going to one of the meetings um early on um turning up and then she turned up with somebody else so I was in a way I was relieved that i' identified the right person as being
01:29:07 identified the right person as being involved in Alf activity but we didn't go together now when you when you say you didn't go
01:29:19 now when you when you say you didn't go together can I be clear when you went to Great hooky Farm was she ever in the vehicle that you now that's that's possible I did take a number because there were all these vehicles going they could didn't take everybody it was quite a big crowd I think 15 people in total so on the way there I probably did
01:29:30 so on the way there I probably did yes and where you stopped by police as you were leaving no that's not right I can tell you what actually happened okay
01:29:42 can tell you what actually happened okay you tell us your version of that okay um well what actually happened was that we turned up
01:29:44 turned up um uh a number of the group went into they wanted to go into the battery area but by that time the farmer put um security lights on it so that was out of order went into the Barn took some um
01:29:56 order went into the Barn took some um Barn chickens and carried them away in um animal carriers and some mail bags as well uh if you can imagine we stopped off there quite a long about a quarter
01:30:10 off there quite a long about a quarter of a mile walk into the back of the farm to get in so there was a route set out by ASW with little lights on lamps on the gate post to get there the animals were um picked up and carried out and then I was in the
01:30:24 out and then I was in the van on my own with all of these um chickens coming in um I'm not sure whether one or two people jumped in the front it's
01:30:39 people jumped in the front it's possible um and then we drove down to a sanctuary can I give its name I don't think it appears in the papers anywhere you happy for me to give the name to the sanctuary where we went if you could write that down please
01:31:03 and we went there and stayed there for about 2 hours 3 hours waiting for to see if there's any pursuit or there any issues uh we got all the chickens out of the um bags because they were overheating and seven unfortunately died as a
01:31:13 as a result
01:31:15 result um and then as dorm was breaking around about 5:30 6:00 I and one other activist got in the van to go to another
01:31:26 got in the van to go to another Sanctuary where we were going to um put the the chickens that have been rescued uh she was a worker at that Sanctuary um and that was across the
01:31:43 and that was across the border and then the other activist went away in the two high cars and asws van and then as I was leaving um about halfast 6 as I say certainly when it was Daylight um then saw a blue light behind and sirens and then we were sto as the
01:31:55 and sirens and then we were sto as the others went ahead and disappeared into the
01:32:00 the distance um and then the officer came to speak to me and wanted to find out if I got any um if I'd stolen any Machinery I think he was looking for I think he said Travelers who' had been stealing
01:32:11 Travelers who' had been stealing Machinery from farms nearby and I said no we're moving um chickens from the sanctuary to another one he was happy that and off he went if I've understood and followed your account you
01:32:31 your account you when at the farm stayed in your van is that your evidence yeah that's right could we go back to your witness statement please
01:32:43 35074 um paragraph 207 please yeah I'll get you a page number if I can under 96
01:32:51 yeah par paragraph 20 7
01:32:57 yeah just over the page
01:33:09 please my recollection is that ASW persuaded me to get involved I did not put pressure on anyone to get involved I did enter the premises the farm itself yes that's right I took the photograph that is shown in this section of the
01:33:23 that is shown in this section of the power base article the person on the right is just I think the person on the left wearing a mask is privacy privacy I did drive activists and animals away yes that's right that suggests doesn't it that you
01:33:42 right that suggests doesn't it that you did leave your van in order to take the photograph oh I'm sorry I was I was I thought you were referring to the sanctuary when we arrived I did follow
01:33:54 sanctuary when we arrived I did follow them on behind as I said and then I took the photograph to be used in um in the animal liberation C I
01:34:07 C I think well we've got the the transcript to record your earlier answers can we take that down please can we have up next from bundle six
01:34:11 six c188
01:34:13 c188 739
01:34:15 739 788 please
01:34:29 Jessica goes to France in the late summer Early Autumn yes of 1992 doesn't she yes this is a report dated the 29th
01:34:41 she yes this is a report dated the 29th of September 1992 we understand it to be your intelligence it's reporting the move and it is providing an address in France yes is that correct I think so yeah and at this stage p uh
01:34:55 yeah and at this stage p uh organizations Southern England animal Liberation Investigation Unit hunt saers Association conspicuous by its absence
01:35:10 Association conspicuous by its absence is Alf isn't it I've just got privacy on that I can't see the the detail that's for the associates oh I see I beg your pardon right
01:35:25 pardon right yeah got it yeah could we take that down now and go to tab 195 5 [Music]
01:35:35 74952 and if we have that expanded a little 23rd of October an SDS report submitted by hn 86 it says Jessica previously reported
01:35:47 86 it says Jessica previously reported as a resident of Jessica's East London address has now departed from the UK and is now living at an unknown address in privacy France it is not known when she
01:36:00 privacy France it is not known when she intends to return to the UK she has left her vehicle a red mini registration privacy at Jessica's East London address for the use of residents at that address is this your
01:36:13 reporting it seems like it's a sanitized version for another use but I guess it is well you say sanitize but there is a Frank difference between the address we
01:36:26 Frank difference between the address we saw recorded in the last report and the positive assertion that the address is unknown yes are you suggesting that's a deliberate Act of sanitization
01:36:47 yes could we take that down now please could we go file 4 B Roman numeral 4 five
01:36:49 five 735 511
01:37:02 thank you if we U have that expanded this is a gist of a handwritten
01:37:19 gist of a handwritten letter which Jessica has said she wrote to a friend whilst she was in France and I think you've seen uh the copy you've seen a copy of that letter without the restrictions
01:37:35 yes well no wonder you left it so long before you wrote you'll have to go out and make some gossip boy or you could just do what I do and lie it makes great reading well how's your Andy I don't have
01:37:48 Andy I don't have one
01:37:49 one anymore he has really pissed me off in this letter he wrote to me I've probably already told you this I don't really
01:38:07 already told you this I don't really care here it is again anyway it's worth a few laughs he suggested that we see other people because if I decided to stay over here for another year it wouldn't be fair on him those weren't his exact words but in a nutshell he
01:38:18 his exact words but in a nutshell he wouldn't be getting enough sex so if we both agreed to see other people he wouldn't feel guilty so I wrote a l back saying I'll see other people for example Swedish Sailors but if you see any
01:38:29 Swedish Sailors but if you see any it's over then he rang me and said what do I think we should do so I said let's call it quits he said okay I told him
01:38:43 call it quits he said okay I told him I'd ring him in a couple of weeks but he said no he'd WR that was over a month ago so him it was getting on my nerves anyway when bles asked if I had a boyfriend good old me though I never lied I always said yes but I'll you because he's in London that's
01:38:56 because he's in London that's honest i' like to direct your particular attention to the first two sentences yes of that second
01:39:08 of that second paragraph well how's your Andy I don't have one anymore yes on its face this is
01:39:21 one anymore yes on its face this is contemporary written evidence that you had been in a sexual ual relationship with Jessica isn't it that's what it says yes but what I would like to say is if I look at that um
01:39:32 like to say is if I look at that um letter as I have been shown and the other one it's two entirely different hands that write them so I don't understand how someone can write two letters within six months and use two
01:39:46 letters within six months and use two completely different hands to write them my suggestion is that that letter isn't true it clearly isn't true because it's made certain allegations that are not true and what would be in two different hands would be something I'd be
01:39:58 hands would be something I'd be interested in the inquir to find out why that's the
01:40:08 case can we take that letter down now and have up from volume 4 B Roman numeral
01:40:09 numeral 4
01:40:11 4 4
01:40:12 4 735 510
01:40:29 uh again another handwritten letter you've seen a copy of the original and if we could go over to the next page and the next page thank you uh could we have expanded the text at the bottom of that
01:40:40 bottom of that page it's really weird but I'm still going out with Andy yes all these miles
01:40:51 going out with Andy yes all these miles away strange I might dump him when I see him next well when I leave him next to come back here cuz I will need somewhere to stay when I go to London aren't
01:41:07 to stay when I go to London aren't I I don't really want to see the house at Jessica's former address I will be really upset because people will be staying in my room bastards so I will
01:41:18 staying in my room bastards so I will need to stay somewhere I will let you know when I will be coming back that will be great sabb seeing privacy apparently it's easy to Sab the union because the Terrier boys aren't allowed to touch
01:41:31 to touch you obviously the main thing that I wish to draw your attention to is that opening sentence it's really weird but I'm still going out with Andy yes Jessica's evidence was to the effect
01:41:50 Jessica's evidence was to the effect that after the incident she described in the first letter uh and you're breaking up you got back together again Before Christmas when she came home to England no did that happen that's not what happened at all
01:42:02 what happened at all no why is Jessica writing to a friend saying it's really weird but I'm still going out with Andy that I can
01:42:26 still going out with Andy that I can explain um this time that I was staying over at um the East Lon dress that's when Jessica wanted to have a relationship with me and um that was when I was trying to find the best way of dealing with that if you can imagine here's a a young woman who wants a
01:42:41 here's a a young woman who wants a relationship with me which I'm not seeking I cannot um affect the relationship that we
01:42:53 um affect the relationship that we currently have as activist because she's part of an Alf cell and I don't want to lose that I'm about to get involved in the alfsg and I don't want that to happen so the only option I had there was to string on that idea of a relationship which is what I did so I said to
01:43:07 said to her go over to um to France by all means I don't want to start a relationship until you come back so I gave her the option to say yes we are going to be in a relationship but it won't be um fully a relationship until she comes back and my intention of doing that was to hope
01:43:21 my intention of doing that was to hope that in the time that she was over there that it would um it would wne and that would be the end of it so that's that's what she's talking about there she in her mind we were going to be in a relationship although she was going to be
01:43:32 be abroad in my mind I wanted to manage that relationship as sensitively as I could so it wouldn't affect my current ability to infiltrate the
01:43:46 ALF let's explore that relationship a little bit more yes you started by saying um words to the effect of she was demonstrating an interest in having a
01:43:57 demonstrating an interest in having a relationship with you yes how do you say that was manifesting
01:44:04 itself was quite quite a blunt thing you can me if you like is one thing she said to me I think I mentioned that somewhere in a
01:44:11 report what
01:44:17 else we talked about oh yeah she said but only if you if you wear condoms and I then went into a rather bizarre discussion about the fact that there were no vegan condoms at the time so that couldn't be something
01:44:29 the time so that couldn't be something that we could do which was me grasping at straws to try to avoid this relationship issue as best I could was
01:44:40 relationship issue as best I could was this before during or after your being in her single bed with her during I think well it may have been before this is hard to remember
01:44:59 and in leading up to that conversation had she made
01:45:01 made any physical move towards
01:45:08 you we were quite friendly
01:45:24 um what I'm driving at Mr Kohl's is you are in bed yes with 90 year old Jessica yes a single bed yes and on your evidence she has asked you offered to let you her that's what she said
01:45:40 let you her that's what she said yes did she say this entirely out of the blue or is there anything remotely approaching foreplay involved there wasn't there wasn't any obvious reason for it
01:45:51 obvious reason for it no as I said we were friend and I
01:46:21 think
02:16:19 e e
02:17:01 Mr lenthal um my understanding is I've been informed that Jessica does not uh wish the Restriction order to be which was recently read out uh to be upheld uh on the basis that it restricted
02:17:12 on the basis that it restricted something that was Private to her but she is no longer concerned to protect that that's correct sir thank you very much indeed then the restriction order
02:17:25 much indeed then the restriction order that was announced um when I Rose uh 15 minutes ago no longer applies um everybody is free to report what they heard in the hearing room uh
02:17:39 unrestricted thank you sir just before we resume the chronology Mr Kohls yes um I would like to go back to the
02:17:50 yes um I would like to go back to the sexual attention that you say Jessica was was paying to you yes when did she start showing a sexual interest in
02:18:06 interest in you the the invitation came out of the blue so it was a a single incident from my perspective yes that's right was it repeated
02:18:26 no I don't think it was no how sure of that are you as best as I can
02:18:39 remember um picking up the narrative yeah after Christmas Jessica goes back to France doesn't
02:18:49 doesn't she um that's what you say yeah I I'm not aware of her coming back over Christmas she comes back in the early summer because she sustained an
02:19:01 summer because she sustained an injury at that point does she stay with you no at any point [Music]
02:19:20 thereafter not stay with me no no defining stay is staying overnight no no we may have bumped into each other somewhere but I'm not entirely sure Jessica's evidence is that the sexual relationship continued during this period you continued to have sex and you
02:19:36 period you continued to have sex and you always Ed condoms is that cor she wasn't she wasn't in the UK when she's come back we weren't connected when she came
02:19:49 back did you ever have sex with Jessica no I didn't
02:20:02 Jessica's evidence was that there came a point in time when she said that you did not need to use a condom and you told her that you'd had a child with whom you now had no contact and for that reason insisted on using a
02:20:17 and for that reason insisted on using a condom did part of my cover that's right as I've said before that I'd um had an unfortunate relationship and uh a child resulted that I wasn't able to see did
02:20:28 resulted that I wasn't able to see did you tell Jessica that I'm guess so it's my it was the legend it was my cover that I deployed so yes when did you tell Jessica that I'm not sure in what
02:20:41 circumstances I I guess at the same time same time as as the other comments are we back in the bed in I think so I think that's when it would
02:20:52 think so I think that's when it would would have been something I would have deployed to try to get myself out of that situation
02:21:05 yes that was the sort of account that Jessica's evidence is affected her emotionally because she felt guilty about being pleased that you no longer had contact with your child I'm not sure I can be held
02:21:17 child I'm not sure I can be held responsible for her emotional reaction to something I've said well in the sense that if you are a police officer
02:21:29 that if you are a police officer spinning false accounts which play with people's emotions unnecessarily you're responsible for that aren't you I feel responsible yes of course but uh what was more important
02:21:43 of course but uh what was more important was to avoid this invitation to a sexual relationship and to put myself in some distance to that if I could
02:21:55 Jessica went on to form a relationship with a man we are calling q k
02:22:04 okay yes she says that a particularly memorable and rather Awkward Moment was when she first met
02:22:24 when she first met qk her account is that she first met qk when she was in bed with you at your cover
02:22:25 cover address is that what happened that's probably why it was a surprise CU it didn't happen are you sure about that
02:22:46 definite she says that she then spent more time at what was to become her South London address yes
02:23:02 did you spend more time at the South London address thereafter no no I didn't no why
02:23:04 no why not
02:23:10 um I mean I may have popped around to see some of the residents um but by that stage I was moving on to more of this um SG work so the connections I had there which tended to be around taing and a
02:23:26 which tended to be around taing and a little bit um some of them were involved in another Al cell uh which they they invited me to take uh part in one of their actions some of the residents at the of the South London yes that's right yeah well you've explained that one of the reasons you spent time at the East
02:23:42 the reasons you spent time at the East London address was because they were the very people you were seeking to report upon if Jessica moves to the South London address yeah she's staying with people who on your evidence are part of another Alf cell no same people but a different cell there are at least two
02:23:55 different cell there are at least two maybe three of the individuals are the same but there are different people as well aren't they exactly the sort of people you wanted to mix with at that stage my direction was towards the lfsg and to not to get involved in criminal
02:24:14 and to not to get involved in criminal activity it's a reality that you've been frequenting the East London address because of an interest in sexual interest in Jessica no an activist interest
02:24:28 is it right that um Jessica became increasingly attracted to qk and finished the relationship with you I reported that she went to um an address in the South
02:24:41 she went to um an address in the South Coast with him and then disappeared from the London scene doesn't answer my question did Jessica finish the relationship between you and her no it just drift we drifted apart as I was hoping and she then when she came back
02:24:56 hoping and she then when she came back didn't come to see me and then she went off to her to the South the sorry the south of England address with um that individual when you say drifted off are you using those words because she was
02:25:16 you using those words because she was under the impression she was in a sexual relationship with you oh no no I mean she she moved down there she drifted away from the the South London connections
02:25:34 her evidence is that the breakup was amicable and that you continued to hang around at the South London address are either or both of those things true I said I may have visited from time to time occasionally but my main target then was SG and not a live Alf um investigation or
02:25:49 infiltration can we have up please from volume 1 tab A4 735
02:26:12 546 this is a document produced by op Pitchford a reference to this inquiry's first late chairman it's dated the 5th of May 2017 if we could go over the page
02:26:35 please it's manuscript note we understand this to be a manuscript note made by officers from operation
02:26:46 made by officers from operation Pitchford following a meeting with you for the purposes of a risk assessment relating to the anonymity process in this inquiry yes do you agree I guess so yeah yeah I remember the meeting n
02:27:01 meeting n two challenge to his lover cover to his cover Bigg a pardon female action of
02:27:12 cover Bigg a pardon female action of female activist became obsessed with him wanting a
02:27:18 wanting a relationship difficult to distance himself yes
02:27:38 obsessed with you the evidence you've given today is that her sexual interest in you manifested itself on a single occasion in bed at the East London address how is that an obsession I can't answer to someone else's notes here I don't I don't understand how some was using their own language
02:27:51 how some was using their own language here about what I said did you tell the risk assessors that Jessica was obsessed with you I don't remember the words but
02:28:11 with you I don't remember the words but I did describe what I've described here today I got a number of times wrong I think because I mixed up a couple of um a couple of different events involving two different people but I think I got it largely right
02:28:31 it's quite a mistake to make isn't it to mistake a single sexual approach with an obsession that it was difficult to distance yourself from I don't accept that that was my word it may have been their word what I was trying to explain I think at the time I
02:28:41 time I confused um Jessica with Andre McAn and the time that she'd stayed over with me and I may
02:28:49 and I may have um thought it was the same person and may have used the term like if I remember right I said five or six times that someone had stayed with me and I got that wrong because it was a start excuse me the start of a memory
02:29:04 a start excuse me the start of a memory that I hadn't really um clarified until I had a chance to think about it is it your evidence that Andrea McAn was sexually obsessed with you oh no no not at all
02:29:17 no difficult to distance yourself did you say that or anything to that well as I've described it was difficult
02:29:29 well as I've described it was difficult to to um distance myself from the sexual relationship that's right but on your evidence today it wasn't because you said no you told her about a child you made an excuse about vegan condom she made a promise of an intimate relationship in sometime in the future
02:29:42 relationship in sometime in the future and she was going off to France and it still continued that she wanted that relationship that's that's what I mean about
02:29:53 that Jessica had a long history in animal rights originally from privacy privacy had links to the hunt saps he spent time with her at her
02:30:05 saps he spent time with her at her instigation no sexual contact resisted her
02:30:09 her advancers did you say anything to that effect to the officers that's a summation of what I've just said it's their words not mine in the plural advances exactly consistent with OB
02:30:31 advances exactly consistent with OB session but not with your evidence today no as I say it's someone else's notes not my words High instance of promiscuous relationships STD very frequent and common she wanted
02:30:51 STD very frequent and common she wanted a sexual relationship but wanted to have protective sex he as a vegan would not use condom against against principles that's
02:30:57 right had a serious psychological problem father issue feeling of
02:31:08 problem father issue feeling of neglect atmosphere of sexual liberal approaches yes it's all muddled
02:31:18 up there's a series of notes there which sort of I was trying to describe the situation and these notes sort of
02:31:36 they make some sense being very careful with privacy pleas um Mr Kohl's who else made a sexually liberal approach to you during the course of your deployment I can remember um a particular gay man who kissed me quite passionately I wanted a relationship
02:31:48 passionately I wanted a relationship that that wasn't something I was keen on um
02:31:59 there was a general discussion about I think this comes from it might have come from when I was in the office and we were talking about the
02:32:07 the risks of um no that's not right it was afterwards talking about the prevalence
02:32:20 afterwards talking about the prevalence within the animal rights movement of not using contraception because generally the males would um be sterilized and that was the way that um uh babies were avoided and as a result SDS could be um still passed on and I can't remember
02:32:32 still passed on and I can't remember where that conversation came from but I think it was probably while I was in the in the field I'm not entirely sure who with so it's all a mixed up story here if I could ask you to stay with my
02:32:44 if I could ask you to stay with my question yeah told us about a gay man
02:32:56 question yeah told us about a gay man kissing you yes did any woman other than Jessica make a sexual advance to you during your
02:33:09 deployment yes I think so is that a person who you know the cipher for or uh no is not ciphered or is that somebody whose name you need to write down for
02:33:20 us I can remember a first name um but someone in the um in the peace
02:33:28 movement there was someone at glastenbury but don't even know the name is that in the piece is this the same person no no no these are two different people but two different women yeah yeah one at glenbury yeah one in the peace movement
02:33:40 movement yes this wasn't unusual thing to happen um but often it was easy to rebuff them
02:33:53 have you mentioned these before I've never been asked about them before could you write down as best you
02:34:04 before could you write down as best you can remember them their names I can only remember one first name if you could write that down
02:34:14 please and if that could be shown first of all to the chairman and then to me please
02:34:36 thank
02:34:51 you you then go on thank as recorded by the officers to say that you used to share beds with both female and male activists in squats during uh your deployment that I think is consistent
02:35:08 deployment that I think is consistent with not just squats though but yes it was it was not unusual you've given today did you ever speak to your managers about that no why
02:35:21 not this was normal practice within the movement it was reasonably well known I thought did that ever lead to physical contact in bed between you and a female activist yeah well you you'd be
02:35:33 activist yeah well you you'd be physically touching each other if you're in the same bed absolutely in what in what state of undress um generally closed how closed uh
02:35:43 closed uh gosh
02:35:46 gosh um to allow modesty I suppose I mean this this is quite difficult question to answer how much modesty was there in the sorts of squats that you were
02:36:06 frequenting um the instances I'm thinking of is when you're going to go cubbing and you stay over and people are there two or three others will be staying with me and we will all be crushed on the bed waiting for halfast 3
02:36:19 crushed on the bed waiting for halfast 3 to come around so then we can go off and then go do the subbing and occasionally I'd stay over there was a a chap I remember breaking his squat open and he wanted assistant to get some furniture in and I stayed over in the one bed that
02:36:30 in and I stayed over in the one bed that was in The Squat and you know these were not salubrious accommodation by any stretch of the imagination there's just one mattress to lie on 1887 has given evidence to this inquiry about a similar practice okay
02:36:41 inquiry about a similar practice okay but he says that on occasions uh there was close physical contact whether that was spooning cuddling up or on his account some limited sexual activity
02:36:57 account some limited sexual activity right did anything like that ever occur with you no any physical affection at all demonstrated by you to a woman or a
02:37:10 all demonstrated by you to a woman or a woman to you we were always friendly and and yeah we're we're we're activists together we we're all trusting relationships sorry could you be a bit more specific in answering that question how would you like me to answer it that
02:37:21 how would you like me to answer it that was there ever any affectionate physical contact when you are in um bed with female activists by affectionate you mean what well I have a little problem Mr Kohls is you seem to like very
02:37:32 Mr Kohls is you seem to like very specific questions um I am driving at whether there was any sort of physical contact you had with a woman or any woman in a bed in your undercover
02:37:45 woman in a bed in your undercover deployment that is not the sort of physical contact you would have had with a man
02:37:52 a man it would be the same if it was a male or a female staying in my bed it's just people in the bed sleeping together I mean are we affectionate yes of course are because we're activists together you snuggled up
02:38:08 um no we're we're we're sleeping in the bed ready to go off to go and do a Sab or or or to do cubbing or just resting you know this rigid physical separation no so where in between I mean you were there I wasn't where in between those two answers are
02:38:25 where in between those two answers are you well you you're probably touching CU you're in the same bed if it's cold you might be be close if you haven't got sufficient covers you would I this it's innocent contact between two people who um trust each other but it's not a sexual thing or or or anything
02:38:40 not a sexual thing or or or anything like that but you know you're asking me very difficult questions to answer how how would you like me to phrase it we are we are not sexual but we are friends and we are in the same bed and we're about to go and do an action later on and we're tired and we're trying to to
02:38:53 and we're tired and we're trying to to get to sleep and we're having a bit of a chat and a laugh and maybe alcohol has been taken you know that this is what
02:39:00 happened uh and then if we look at the last two um paragraphs over the
02:39:13 page these allegations are of a similar background
02:39:20 and approach finding it very difficult to read that and something in committed activism Jessica was very much committed to this lifestyle so we're talking about Jessica again she subsequently formed a
02:39:40 again she subsequently formed a relationship with another activist and dropped her obsessive Behavior toward
02:39:49 toward him did you say anything to that effect to the operation Pitchford officers it sound SS like as I've said today that there was this um desire to maintain a relationship even though she was away in France and that she dropped it over
02:40:02 France and that she dropped it over time the context we're talking about obsessive sexual behavior aren't we we're talking about obsessive Behavior yeah yeah wanting a sexual relationship wanting a relationship that's
02:40:19 right so in fact contrary to the answers you gave me earlier about the there being a single incident in bed in
02:40:28 1992 you were giving the impression to operation
02:40:29 operation Pitchford that there was continual
02:40:40 Pitchford that there was continual obsessive behavior all the way through until she forms a relationship with qk in the summer of
02:40:51 1993 there was continued a continued desire to have a relationship with me when she was in France that's right that's what that's referring
02:40:59 to and yet you've told me today that there was no other sexual Advance other than the one uh in bed in 1992 it was like a done deal you know that when you come back then we we'll talk about it that was the point but she
02:41:11 talk about it that was the point but she did come back and she didn't come to see me because she'd moved on she came back and she didn't form the relationship with qk immediately
02:41:28 no so if she's on your account she's got an interest in you you've promised her a relationship yeah she comes back from France and doesn't see you that's right that's what
02:41:43 happened I mean you have reported on her in her South London address yes exactly as I said I have visited there once or twice and it was part of that um the cell that was there that were planning a different
02:41:56 attack can we now look please again at your witness statement yeah which is
02:42:10 35074 Page 137
02:42:12 137 yeah paragraph
02:42:26 I have been referred to the oh if can have the Preamble I've been referred to the notes taken by the risk assessor 73554 six I remember having this conversation and it is generally accurate Jessica was interested in having a sexual relationship with me I may have used the word obsessed when
02:42:43 may have used the word obsessed when speaking to the risk assessor because her
02:42:51 her advances had been unwanted but she had been per assistant and by the time of this conversation with the risk assessors I was aware that she was alleging we had engaged in a long-term sexual
02:43:06 sexual relationship so in your witness statement to us you have used
02:43:08 used obsessive and she is making advances plural to you as I said I may have used the word obsessed I couldn't I couldn't be sure
02:43:34 is the reality that your evidence is all over the place because it's simply not true I dispute that it's all over the place it's just um to me quite clear but there's a whole load of information that you have that's come from other sources which contradict what I'm
02:43:47 which contradict what I'm saying some of which is uh may have misled you can we take that down please can we go in volume 6 to tab 159 745
02:44:15 980 this is a report dated the 23rd of June
02:44:16 June 1992 it's a report about
02:44:27 1992 it's a report about Jessica MH includes her name her sex date of birth her then East London address our employment status organization Southern England animal Liberation Investigation Unit hunt sabur association
02:44:38 sabur association yes sets out the hunt she's attending and her Associates if we could look at the text please
02:44:52 Jessica has recently Mo thank you Jessica has recently moved to Jessica's East London address from a parents address in privacy she will be sharing the house with privacy surname unknown privacy and privacy who will
02:45:05 unknown privacy and privacy who will move from dich when he returns to the UK from a holiday in Eastern Europe Jessica is an active hunt sabur who has
02:45:19 is an active hunt sabur who has committed acts of criminal damage to Sur Union hunt members property in the past having been influenced by season campaigners privacy and Joe TCH recently she has taken part in aliu investigations and has expressed an interest in animal Liberation Front
02:45:31 interest in animal Liberation Front style Liberation raids now that she is moved to London and is living with other animal rights activists she is likely to commit criminal acts against wider animal abuse targets with them
02:45:47 animal abuse targets with them uh the there are no particulars of the alleged acts of criminal damage to the Sur Union hunt members
02:46:02 property why not I didn't know about them it was reported to me by somebody Maybe by herself I don't know that these incidents happened but um I'm just reporting information I found out about about her at this time
02:46:22 found out about about her at this time and this report uh is uh saying saying that she has expressed an interest in Alf style Liberation raids yes so it falls short of saying that she is an Al activist I don't think by this stage
02:46:33 activist I don't think by this stage She's Taken part in something that I
02:46:42 She's Taken part in something that I knew about so that would be accurate yes although you've given evidence that you were taking an interest in her because she had been describ to you as an Al that's girl that's what I was told and I was checking out that detail you don't just accept what said as fact you tried to corroborate it that's general practice can we go over the
02:47:00 page thank you and then I'm interested in
02:47:02 in the there is no suggestion there of there being any registry file about Jessica is there
02:47:21 uh I don't see it there no could we now take that down and go in Volume 7 to c254 Sir
02:47:26 c254 Sir 746
02:47:37 548 to the report itself thank you this is another upto-date an information performer about Jessica this one is dated almost a year later the 2nd of June
02:47:53 1993 um by this stage it's reporting that she's working in the animal sanctuary in France um and this one sets out animal Liberation Front hunt sabur Association
02:48:06 Liberation Front hunt sabur Association and animal Liberation Investigation Unit yes as the organizations she was
02:48:19 yes as the organizations she was associated with and explains that she is um in France and um going to be coming back
02:48:29 yes can we take it then that the reason it the reporting has changed from interested in the ALF to ALF because of her involvement in the hooky farm
02:48:44 raid I think that's an assumption I couldn't I couldn't be absolutely sure I think normally what would happen is that if someone was involved in something and it would fit with say the AL there'd be a cross reference on that file which is
02:49:00 a cross reference on that file which is how these things would eventually end up on a um an or organizational reference um in a in a report in the future um it's possible that that's that's the reason yes
02:49:17 reason yes yeah uh can we take that down can we go now to uh one last report before I'm going to stop for today par volume 4 B Roman numeral 48
02:49:27 48 7481
02:49:29 7481 128 please page two
02:50:02 this is
02:50:11 um the evidence of someone called DW if you want to check the cipher
02:50:20 list yeah uh and if we expand first of all the top
02:50:29 paragraph member of the brickton hunt sabur from 1990 first became aware of Jessica in 1990 9192 season and she was a sabur is a gist of that if we go to the next
02:50:45 the next paragraph how do you know Andy do you recall DW yeah he was the deao leader of the um I know Anarchist don't like to be called leaders but that's what he was Andy Davy
02:51:02 leaders but that's what he was Andy Davy presented himself to one of Brixton seor coordinators again in the 1991 Cub hunting season ostensibly as a self-employed person who lived locally and was prepared to use his van for transport he had contacts with London Animal Aid and other local animal rights
02:51:21 Animal Aid and other local animal rights groups so far nothing controversial sure I was introduced to him as Andy van early in the 9192 season he drove frequently as the number of sabot had increased dramatically and we required
02:51:32 increased dramatically and we required three vehicles to get all the sabs into the field Andy was regular driver for the group until the raid of 13 torren Road by farham CID and Arie
02:51:42 Arie um and supported by 16 uniformed officers from Brixton station this was reportedly in connection to hawkley farm chicken
02:51:56 connection to hawkley farm chicken Liberation subsequent conversations with housemates and other local activists in indicated suspicions around Andy who was apparently on this Liberation action I subsequently visited Andy at his house in Stan Thorp Street I had not visited
02:52:10 in Stan Thorp Street I had not visited Andy at home before and it did not take long for suspicions to arise I did not feel he actually lived here Brixton Sab subsequently removed his detail from the contact list is that true
02:52:32 no just so we are absolutely clear what is not true he never visited me at the address he's got the address wrong
02:52:34 wrong um the reason why I stopped saing was because I was directed to move on to the lfsg so I had no longer any need to be involved with them
02:52:53 um if if I was under that level of Suspicion I wouldn't have been able to maintain my activity in the lfsg so I doubt any of that's true
02:53:01 um it's correct that I didn't actually live there that's true and what brickton Subs to do with their records is up to them I I didn't know anything of that but um he's suggesting he's come around and he's been to my place he never was he was
02:53:12 been to my place he never was he was never there and is the area with the address simply that he said Stan Thorp Street and not Stan Thorp Road he's got the address wrong yeah that's right but
02:53:23 the address wrong yeah that's right but that is the error exactly yeah yeah can we go down to the next
02:53:29 paragraph thank you please can you describe the relationship between Jessica and Andy was the relationship an intimate relationship if so how do you know please provide any information you can
02:53:42 please provide any information you can in terms of conversations you had with either of them or any Behavior you witness personally the debriefs often in pubs while whilst awaiting release of Arrested sabs gave an opportunity to relax socially with friends and other
02:53:57 relax socially with friends and other groups Jessica and Andy seemed to be a thing definitely in the later part of the 1991 92 season the relationship was open if not flaunted and I personally
02:54:10 open if not flaunted and I personally observed intimate moments between them did did
02:54:15 did did he by that stage I think we were in the same cell together so it was like a a different connection between people who were involved in Al activity and and the sabs it was like a separation so we probably did have a that sort of um
02:54:30 probably did have a that sort of um connection um but the description of being a flaunted intimate relationship is is a creation I'm afraid when you say that sort of relationship intimate moments well
02:54:45 relationship intimate moments well sitting together chatting being somewhat separated from others because we had a shared background in an Al attack and we're involved in planning others yeah that's that's the sort of thing I mean as Andy was a driver for Brixton and Jessica sabed with another group
02:54:58 and Jessica sabed with another group there came a time when groups went their separate ways Andy and Jessica's farewell to each other was intimate if not
02:55:07 not passionate is that true that's an utter creation of of the writer this I observed because as a frequent driver it was my job to her the group for departure at least on one occasion that
02:55:18 departure at least on one occasion that I can clearly recollect when when it was time to leave and he could not be found and on searching was found to be already in his vehicle with Jessica sharing an intimate moment is that
02:55:31 intimate moment is that true well that would be extremely surprising if that were true my goodness is there any truth in it at all why why would you in the middle of a sap covered in mud cold about to go back
02:55:42 covered in mud cold about to go back think oh this is a good idea to have an intimate moment it's
02:55:50 ridiculous the reason it was apparent to me then that relationship was occurring is due to several Brixton sabs having mentioned separately that they thought Andy was a
02:56:01 Andy was a Lech he seemed to be R raising heckles amongst the more Ardent feminists as being old-fashioned or even sexist is it right that you gained a reputation as a Lech
02:56:10 Lech no that you were perceived as
02:56:18 oldfashioned that was never suggested to me no even sexist
02:56:31 no after a day of Hard Exercise in the fields to warm a warm Pub tends to bring out the conviviality in the later part of the Season Jessica and Andy were always together snuggled side by side is
02:56:42 always together snuggled side by side is that true no it's not is there any truth in it whatsoever it's possible at one occasion we were sitting together yeah that that that wouldn't be a surprise but the suggestion of being snuggled or the suggestion of intimacy is made
02:56:53 the suggestion of intimacy is made up I'm going to pause my questioning of you now so that we can interpose another witness yes um
02:57:07 um tomorrow I'm going to start by ask going back to the alfsg right you gave evidence this afternoon that you were given specific information about specific Al AC
02:57:23 information about specific Al AC both u in advance and after such actions I would like you to direct the inquiry to examples of that sort of intelligence obtained through the
02:57:34 obtained through the alfsg being reported please I'm sorry just just what do you want to know that the names of the people that I was told we're about to plan an attack I would like you I would
02:57:53 plan an attack I would like you I would like you to identify to the inquiry any examples that you say are intell of reports of intelligence obtained from the
02:58:04 alfsg which identify specifics let's be clear there are people talking to me because I'm a member of the lfsg who are saying they're going to plan an attack and be
02:58:15 they're going to plan an attack and be arrest and if they were to arrest to be arrested to support them so they're talking to to me personally believing me to be a representative of the lfsg is is that specifically what you want because
02:58:27 that specifically what you want because lfsg as as an amorphous organization is a slightly different thing than them telling me what they're about to do yeah I'm looking for instances where on your evidences you were told specifically about actions prospectively including
02:58:51 about actions prospectively including who was going to carry them out yes what and when and likewise told X post facto on occasions I would like you to identify any reporting of such intelligence obtained in that way yes I can identify one I'm not sure how you get hold of the papers but there was one which involved an arrest and it um it
02:59:05 which involved an arrest and it um it was a time of the arrival of cpia under disclosure and my report of a year prior to the arrest was disclosed which explained the four individuals involved that were planning an attack on a
02:59:22 that were planning an attack on a packing company and a year later they were independently caught um by a traffic officer I seem to remember just on spec and they found the incendiary devices in the boot of their car um that subsequently went to court and sorry yes
02:59:36 subsequently went to court and sorry yes to court and the judge made the decision to disclose my intelligence report because of that the the case was um not proceeded with because it would have identified me as the source of that
02:59:48 identified me as the source of that information reading Crown Court wasn't it that one yes that's right yeah yeah and post it was generally reporting that would have come from the Press office if you need any assistance with the index or
03:00:02 need any assistance with the index or the papers I'm sure that we can arrange for that to be provided thank you that would be great sir um I apologize for a slightly overrunning half past 4 no don't worry at all
03:00:13 don't worry at all um Mr
03:00:18 um Mr hildr I'm sorry not Mr hild um Mr
03:00:20 Mr Lo um my understanding is that Jessica is willing to be recall to give evidence to deal with the suggestion that the uh
03:00:37 to deal with the suggestion that the uh two letters which she has said are hers are not hers yes sir and she's willing to do that this afternoon now yes sir yes um I'm will rise to enable the court to be sorry the hearing room to be set up appropriately um does
03:00:54 up appropriately um does I know that in the past she has had some concern about uh Mr Cole's being in the hearing room when she gives evidence does that remain yes sir then uh I it's very important that you hear this evidence and can I ensure therefore that before we resume you you are able to
03:01:08 before we resume you you are able to listen to it it maybe with a 10-minute delay but you will hear what is said for thank you sir great
03:01:46 for
03:10:16 e for