Morning session continuing examination of HN2 Andrew Coles about his ALF support group infiltration, specific intelligence reports, and threat of compromise from former SDS officer Mike Chitty appearing at same meal as Coles with activists.
00:26:57 e e
00:27:39 may I have your attention please I've been asked to let you know that unfortunately we will be delayed this morning by about 10 minutes thank
00:27:57 you
00:33:26 e e
00:34:12 good morning everybody um today's proceedings are being live streamed with a 10-minute delay uh those with electronic devices May report to the outside world what they have heard in the hearing room but only 10 minutes after the event that they're describing
00:34:28 after the event that they're describing has elapsed devices may not be used for recording or photography thank you Mr
00:34:41 thank you Mr bar thank you sir uh Mr Kohl's um at the end of yesterday's questioning I I left you with a thought for overnight uh about specific intelligence obtained uh via your infiltration of the supporters group uh We've also been doing some homework overnight and I'm
00:34:57 doing some homework overnight and I'm going to to put a couple of reports to you you mentioned yesterday the case which ended up at reading Crown Court I'm I'm going to come back to that a little bit later very good so the two reports I want to put to you at this
00:35:12 reports I want to put to you at this stage are first of all that which is in volume six sir tab 145 uh
00:35:18 145 uh 742
00:35:20 742 252
00:35:29 please if we could go to page three it's actually a nominal up to- dat an information uh Pro former yes uh about a a female individual and if we go over
00:35:42 a female individual and if we go over the page first of all we should note the date 15th of May 1992 and then go over the page to the text at the
00:35:54 text at the top privacy is a committed animal rights activist an Ardent anarco feminist she has recently become involved in a small group of equally committed
00:36:07 small group of equally committed activists who intend to take part in Alf style Liberation raids on chicken farms in the Su susex and Kent areas bordering London and has already been surveying likely targets with
00:36:18 likely targets with privacy so there you see reference to unspecific reference to a forthcoming intended
00:36:28 intended attack and if we look zoom out and look at the names we see that Andrea McAn and Jess's name are in the list of SB references and if we go back to the
00:36:43 references and if we go back to the first page you will see that they're both listed as Associates of this individual um so my first question to you is did you get this intelligence
00:36:55 you is did you get this intelligence through the supporters group or did you get uh this intelligence uh because uh you were uh mixing with uh this individual and her
00:37:11 Associates I think this predates my involvement with the SG so I'm guessing I'm part of that um network if we could take that down now and go to par to tab 189
00:37:20 189 746 424
00:37:33 this is an event proor about a forthcoming event for the night of the 29th to the 30th of September 1992 George is attempting to organize an action during the night of the 29th to
00:37:47 action during the night of the 29th to the 30th of September seems likely that this action will consist of the liberation of animals in an inner city Farm in the London area the target Farm is apparently due for closure and the
00:37:58 is apparently due for closure and the Animals destined for the slaughter house George is known to be closely associated with the occupants of Jessica's East London address and has previously used
00:38:11 London address and has previously used this address to launch animal Liberation actions it is likely that this address will again be used as a starting point for this action an alternative starting
00:38:25 for this action an alternative starting point could be privacy privacy the home of privacy then it um lists Associates over the page two pages over there's then a manuscript list of inner city Farms with some notes which um are
00:38:40 Farms with some notes which um are following up the clue in the report about whether or not they're still viable concern or whether they're on the brink of being closed down yeah so this appears to be um
00:38:55 appears to be um intelligence which is specific about a date but not about the the precise Target first of all can you help us is this intelligence that you
00:39:09 gathered I can't be certain it's about the time of um of slag which is the South London animal group which I I think I went to one meeting and I know that George was there I'm only guessing that that's
00:39:20 there I'm only guessing that that's where this information has come from so it's possible but it's not one I remember particularly okay could you help us with George um in a couple of sentences how would you describe George
00:39:39 sentences how would you describe George um paranoid um alarmingly um aggressive um
00:39:41 um unbalanced discreet no
00:39:46 no um if this is your intelligence is it likely you got this from mixing with George or through the alfsg
00:39:57 alfsg my guess it was through a slag meeting at the one:1 center if if I'm right but I think that was the time when he came to South London to speak about planned actions that he had with interested
00:40:08 actions that he had with interested people so I'm guessing I'm I'm putting one and one together I might be making two
00:40:13 two erroneously um that exhausts the
00:40:24 erroneously um that exhausts the homework on our side we have not found a report of yours which we can pin down with
00:40:25 with specific actionable intell elligence which appears to us to have come from your involvement with the alfsg right how did you get on with your
00:40:40 alfsg right how did you get on with your homework I've been trying to think about the number of people that spoke to me knowing that I was involved in the SG I think apart from the the case that we've mentioned that we'll get to later I think often it was someone
00:40:51 later I think often it was someone asking in guarded terms what would the SG provide if someone did something so I think that's where that goes from but in terms of specific events by people that were planned no I I can't remember anything specifically
00:41:03 anything specifically there thank you can we take that document down now please can we go in file four to tab B Roman numeral 43 74953
00:41:35 this is if we expand it so you can see the date this is the 13th of October uh 1992 so by that stage Jessica would have
00:41:46 1992 so by that stage Jessica would have been in France wouldn't she correct yeah and it's a report about Jessica and if we could expand the text
00:41:55 please I'll give you a moment to cast an eye over that um we can go to the signature page in a little while but it's signed by hn by an officer and then counter signed by hn
00:42:08 officer and then counter signed by hn 67 right and my my first question to you is going to be is this intelligence reporting that is emanated from the
00:42:22 SDS I can tell you that we don't think the actual officer who has signed it was serving with the SDS at the time if I could just find to hm67 is if you just give me a second
00:42:46 please right yeah it looks to me like it's um an sb1 an up to- date it would generally be done by a desk officer normally six monthly and there'd be a a an RBF system so that every 6 months a file would come back for update it looks to me like it's
00:43:02 back for update it looks to me like it's an sp1 to go on that file so potentially there are mentions behind then the desk officer would have put this s sp1 together including not just information that I might have um passed in but also general information about someone's identifying particulars and driving
00:43:14 identifying particulars and driving license passport that sort of thing so in a nutshell something to which your intelligence might have contributed yes there might have been some of the mentions would have then inform this report yeah and this report as you'll see contains a lot of specific
00:43:27 see contains a lot of specific information about Jessica about her birth her education her parents details at paragraph two can I take it that someone in C Squad um will have
00:43:39 someone in C Squad um will have researched um things like the background of her parents and where they reside and what their telephone number is or will
00:43:54 what their telephone number is or will that have come from you no it's standard for a desk officer to do generational research on subjects and paragraph three address employment National insurance number yeah uh that sort of uh thing DSS uh details again would that have been researched in the cquad yes
00:44:07 have been researched in the cquad yes that's correct for driving license and passport um someone appears to have got the passport wrong because she plainly
00:44:19 the passport wrong because she plainly must have had a passport to go to France exactly five uh criminal record and there are some details of the incident at the horsen hounds ball arrest towards
00:44:33 at the horsen hounds ball arrest towards the bottom of that that I'd like to take your attention to her arrest resulted from an animal activist demonstration outside the Dorchester hotel in Park Lane where a society function was taking place Jessica threw a flower bomb at a
00:44:44 place Jessica threw a flower bomb at a car and subsequently viciously attacked the police officer during her arrest are you able to help us where this came from I think that might have been the
00:44:57 I think that might have been the officer's evidence for the court case it wasn't something that I would have been able to phrase in in that way because I was a bit distant from it could I just I realized um this morning just checking
00:45:11 realized um this morning just checking my statement I had made an error when I said talking about the flower bombs I think I said I didn't see what had happened I've checked my statement I did actually see it so I do apologize I've misdirected you there so I think I saw
00:45:22 misdirected you there so I think I saw the first person that threw the flower bomb on the second I couldn't be sure which one it was so I just wanted to clarify that I may have got that wrong in my uh evidence yesterday uh the mini paragraph six vehicle ownership paragraph uh seven her
00:45:35 ownership paragraph uh seven her description is as follows height more identifying details which we've had to redact the photograph submitted is an
00:45:56 redact the photograph submitted is an excellent likeness yeah um can I ask you to if you've you've had an opportunity to see a rather poor copy of this photograph well it's it's at the back of the bunch of photographs that you were shown uh very
00:46:07 shown uh very recently is is it possible to see a copy yes be all
00:46:17 right well there's no you can't put it up because
00:46:27 the okay we I will come back to that when we can get when you we can refresh your memory from the photograph uh and if we go over the page please to paragraph
00:46:41 8 first came to notice of this branch in June 1992 when secret information received reported that she is an animal activist she is an associate of fellow
00:46:52 activist she is an associate of fellow activist privacy privacy and privacy it is known that Jessica frequents a hopefield animal sanctuary Sawyers Hall Farm Sawyers Hall Lane Brentwood and then we see the special Branch
00:47:12 then we see the special Branch references um and the uh one for Jessica shows that by this stage she has a registry file doesn't she now
00:47:15 she now uh that first coming to the notice of special Branch was that as a result of your mixing with her and Reporting on her uh it says this Branch so the Met
00:47:32 her uh it says this Branch so the Met police special Branch yeah probably me yeah I want you to hold the fact that
00:47:51 yeah I want you to hold the fact that she's got a registry file by the time of uh this report in October 1992 in mind and I want to go back first of all to the document in file six tab 138
00:47:53 138 730
00:47:55 730 970 please
00:48:12 um this is um a performer nominal up to-date an information performer dated the first of May 1992 uh which is about a different person but in the
00:48:25 person but in the associates Jessica is um one of the associates do you see that I do yeah if we go over the
00:48:37 page and we see Jessica mentions Ray animals our understanding is if someone is not fully on the special Branch radar but is is coming up being mentioned in in reporting that's the way it's
00:48:52 in reporting that's the way it's recorded normally yes until you get five mentions generally you wouldn't get an RF um so yes that's correct and then if we take that down and go to the document in the same file sir at tab 159 745
00:49:13 980 and we looked at this yesterday this is the specific upto-date and information performer about Jessica dated the 26th of June 1992 and that that may well explain the
00:49:24 1992 and that that may well explain the reference to June in the October report might it it might well yes um and if we see on the second line the UR RF
00:49:40 UR RF mentions so at that stage Jessica is still someone who is uh low on the radar yeah but by October she's got an
00:49:52 radar yeah but by October she's got an RF file yeah that's right yes would it be fair to say then that it's your reporting on Jessica that leads to Jessica having an RF file I wouldn't be at all surprised uh with all the consequent investigations uh that we
00:50:08 consequent investigations uh that we went through as recorded in the October yes report yeah we have now got um uh the photographs we have to be very careful not to hold them in a way that the camera will pick up but I'm going to
00:50:20 camera will pick up but I'm going to have um the photograph that was referred to thank you in the October report shown to you thank
00:50:55 you it's not a great quality reproduction of a photograph um we readily accept that uh but in so far as you can tell would that be a good
00:51:10 you can tell would that be a good likeness of Jessica as she was in the summer of
00:51:12 summer of 1992 I would guess I'm I'm imagining that that's severally photocopied and you've lost the imagery but I guess it looks a bit like a passport photo something like that so yeah probably good likeness I'm specifically
00:51:25 good likeness I'm specifically interested in her hair okay and you can I think if you look at the photograph um see that the hair goes down to at least shoulder length and
00:51:39 Below yes that's right
00:51:47 yeah can we um so have you got the photograph or would you like to see it no I know which it is yeah could we now
00:52:00 no I know which it is yeah could we now take this document down and go in bundle four to tab B ran numeral 4 2 740
00:52:09 939 um and then if we go to page one at the
00:52:14 the bottom if we could have that note blown up thank
00:52:15 up thank you it's a a note signed by di n67 who
00:52:26 you it's a a note signed by di n67 who we understand to have been the DI of the SDS at the material time yes uh dated 19th of October 1992 so it would appear to be at about the same time as the October report a few days later 6 days after the October report I showed you earlier uh
00:52:39 report I showed you earlier uh information from a secret and reliable source states that Jessica's photograph is now a poor likeness she now has very
00:52:52 is now a poor likeness she now has very short hair and is much less feminine in appearance
00:53:09 is the secret and reliable source stating that by the Autumn of 1992 Jessica had very short hair yours possibly yes we've got a poor quality reproduction of of the photograph which does at least to show that appear to
00:53:25 does at least to show that appear to show that she did not on the photograph have very short hair the other photographs in the bundle which you've seen date from a trip to France after
00:53:40 seen date from a trip to France after Jessica had uh lost her job there show she has very long hair yes and she's given evidence that her hair could not possibly have grown from very short to
00:53:55 possibly have grown from very short to that length between the Autumn of 1992 and when those photographs were taken right can you help us with why it is being reported that she now has very short hair in October
00:54:13 1992 I I can't help I'm sorry it's obviously someone's asked um information about the appearance whether the photograph's a good likeness or not and someone has said it's very short hair possibly it's me I I can't help you with that conundrum I'm afraid when you last Saw Jessica before
00:54:34 afraid when you last Saw Jessica before she departed to France did she have very long hair very short hair or something else
00:54:36 else um
00:54:42 gosh I think long
00:54:47 hair could we uh take uh that down
00:54:58 please could we have a from volume two uh I'm being told to pause because we've got to stop the stream I'm going into territory which can't be live streamed very
00:55:25 good
01:20:23 e e
01:21:06 there must be no disclosure or publication made of information stated during this hearing uh today between 10:50 and
01:21:14 10:50 and 10:52 please don't worry everybody makes these mistakes I made it myself yesterday
01:21:20 yes Towing Jessica's car yes um
01:21:40 the account that EAB has given is that when you got to Jessica's parents house there was a heated conversation between you and Jessica's
01:21:51 parents did that happen no I only ever met um Jessica's parents once and that was the event I I spoke about earlier probably for no more than 15 minutes and from what I understand they don't remember that um interaction
01:22:11 either uh eab's evidence is that she was told by Jessica's mother that you had sought to persuade her
01:22:16 her um to speak to Jessica to get the relationship back together that's a complete fabrication the whole thing is a complete fabrication
01:22:37 uh she says that you had to be persuaded to leave the premises and when you were persuaded to leave the premises uh Jessica's father was so
01:22:48 premises uh Jessica's father was so worried about her safety that she rang to ensure that she'd got safely home this is the same man who made a statement who said he didn't remember me it's clearly false
01:23:05 EAB says that uh you asked her if you wanted to do anything more radical by way of
01:23:13 way of protest and she said no did you ever ask her if she wanted to do anything more radical I refer you to my earlier
01:23:28 answer she says that you pressed her into fly posting and you were stopped by the police in the course of doing that that
01:23:34 that happened not that I was stopped but the police came and tried to stop us and they
01:23:42 they didn't can we start at the beginning in what circumstances did you and EAB go out fly posting what were in what circumstances did you and EAB go out fly posting from memory and it's not
01:23:53 posting from memory and it's not brilliant but I think we we had some posters to put up about an event and we went out together to stick them up and there was um I can remember a council owned um
01:24:05 um I can remember a council owned um Bill posting board made out of metal we stopped there I stuck one on the back of it and then police stopped and had a word with us about fly posting and I pointed at the sign that said for posters and then they left us
01:24:23 alone did you invite EAB to come out fly posting with you
01:24:29 um I may have agreed to help her doing it I honestly I can't remember that detail well her account is that you pressed her to do so is that true I can't
01:24:47 remember she also recalls at some point you saying to activists you lot don't want to do anything the implication being that you uh trying to probe to see if they would do something more serious than they
01:25:01 do something more serious than they actually were doing did you ever say anything like that to whom when this it's not assisting Me by just saying I said that I would say that's probably made
01:25:17 up could we go to tab 251 please sir 739 633
01:25:29 if we go to the body of the report this is a report dated the 21st of May 1993 it's about EAB says personal documents
01:25:40 it's about EAB says personal documents belonging to EAB are well connected and increasingly important animal rights activist have been obtained photocopies of the documents are attached to this report EAB is a subject of numerous
01:25:53 report EAB is a subject of numerous special Branch references which have not yet been
01:25:58 yet been indexed what follows we can look at very quickly is a series of personal documents if we can go to the next page uh you can see there's a copy of a driving license a library card and a
01:26:16 driving license a library card and a bank card which has branch number um an account number and a Serial just upside down here serial number and if we can go to the next page
01:26:34 p uh appears to be a list of names and phone numbers and some travel directions appears to have come from an address book and if we go to the next page and the next page
01:26:45 page um more it appears to be a photocopied address Board of course yeah um is that it or if if could you just keep going to we run out of pages
01:26:59 we run out of pages please yeah more addresses uh there we go and that's back and that's a bank that's a from a a building Society yeah um did you obtain this
01:27:15 um did you obtain this intelligence I've been trying to uh I think in my statement I said I don't remember I'm not entirely sure but there's there's one or two occasions where that might have been possible yeah and uh how would you you have obtained it my best guess here is
01:27:29 obtained it my best guess here is that there was a raid on London Zoo a number of people were arrested and a lot of their personal belongings were left
01:27:40 of their personal belongings were left in my van because I was driving people there and I think I then had an opportunity
01:27:48 to to get the personal details copied from documents that I found that were within the the my van I remember certainly there was three um exposed sets of photographs that I had developed so I could give back to people because I didn't know whose they were I don't
01:28:01 didn't know whose they were I don't specifically remember this but that would be the sort of way that I could have had this personal information available yeah and why did you want all of this personal
01:28:19 why did you want all of this personal information it's excellent intelligence about the person's um connections and antecedence to what use was this intelligence put uh it would have gone in um as a report about the individual's Associates and their banking details were available for research so if a financial
01:28:33 for research so if a financial investigator required it it was there did you have any guidance from your managers about the circumstances in which you could take and copy very private information like this this was
01:28:46 private information like this this was pretty much normal practice if you had the opportunity to take down such um antecedent detail you did so I can take
01:29:02 antecedent detail you did so I can take it no management criticism of this no no uh can we take that down now please um and could we have up [Music]
01:29:17 3792 page 49 this is Jessica's witness statement
01:29:24 uh paragraph
01:29:32 5.13 the only incident I was aware of before 2017 was what Andrea mcgan reported to me back at the time I was living in Jessica's South London address with
01:29:41 with qk Andrea told me that Kohl's had tried to kiss her one time when I was away in France she didn't know that he and I
01:29:52 France she didn't know that he and I were in a relationship at the time and although she told him that she wasn't interested and rejected his advances she felt very bad about it when we realized I was dating him at the time if you
01:30:08 I was dating him at the time if you could hold that in mind and if we take that down now please and have up 34
01:30:27 357 which is a power BAS uh article about you can we go to page four
01:30:40 please um and if we expand the section under the heading inappropriate behavior with
01:30:54 women um our understanding that in this section of the power base article Andrea Manan is uh Emily
01:31:06 Manan is uh Emily okay uh about halfway halfway down just above it says a key focus of Andy was hunt Sab and animal rights activist Emily she believes Andy had focused on her in particular as she was friends
01:31:18 her in particular as she was friends with high-profile animal liberationists outside of London Shirley noted it was common knowledge that Andy van was was sniffing around Emily it was sort of the
01:31:34 sniffing around Emily it was sort of the established Norm that he had a big thing for her he was clearly Keen to maintain his friendship with her which she tolerated though found him lecherous and annoying Shirley also recalls how Emily
01:31:46 annoying Shirley also recalls how Emily told her at the time he had made a move on her Emily had been caused distress for some reason and was in her room and
01:32:00 for some reason and was in her room and he joined there put his hand on her knee and tried to kiss her this was 1993 while he was still in a relationship with Jessica though she was in
01:32:11 in France at that point when interviewed Emily referred to him as a creep and
01:32:23 Emily referred to him as a creep and told of another situation where he tried to force himself on her she was in the process of leaving London and knowing she needed a place on her last night Andy invited her to stay at his bedset where she reluctantly accepted there he
01:32:40 where she reluctantly accepted there he tried to sleep with her clearly aroused and being insistent despite her making it very clear she was not
01:32:48 interested first of all can I take it from your earlier answers that you did have a policing interest in Andrea McAn not least because of some of her contacts absolutely yes I met her
01:33:01 contacts absolutely yes I met her originally in South under Animal Aid meeting we sort of bonded as clearly not um interested in purely lawful activity and that's when we first got to know each
01:33:10 each other and from the evidence you here is it right that she had contacts with high-profile animal
01:33:21 contacts with high-profile animal liberationists outside London very much so yeah particularly Manchester
01:33:32 might you have behaved in a way which gave rise uh to an understanding that you were to use um the term sniffing around Emily no we we were we were good bodies I mean she was um she's an extraordinary young
01:33:45 extraordinary young woman um we got on really well we were good
01:33:46 good friends and did there come a time uh when she had been caused some distress and you were in a room with with her I don't remember that particular
01:33:59 her I don't remember that particular instant I remember we we spent some time together in Hastings um visiting another activist and
01:34:06 and um and we shared we shared personal detail she she was um very much um in love with the individual that where we were staying and um it was unrequited
01:34:17 were staying and um it was unrequited and she was quite upset about that I'm imagining that's the incident um did you we were we were we were brother sister we were very close did you put a hand on her knee
01:34:33 close did you put a hand on her knee no did you just slap it off if I did now we we didn't have that sort of relationship did you ever put your hand on Andrea mcan's knee it's entirely possible in what
01:34:45 possible in what circumstances I don't know we were we were
01:34:46 were buddies did you try to kiss andreag no did you do so while she was still in a relation while you were still in a
01:34:58 a relation while you were still in a relationship with Jessica I didn't try to kiss
01:35:01 to kiss her I was not I was not ever going to kiss her because I knew who her where her love lay and it wasn't with
01:35:12 her love lay and it wasn't with me uh the power base article says that when they
01:35:16 when they interviewed uh Emily she referred to you as a creep might you have behaved in a way which would have form caused her to form that view well why would she stay with me for a
01:35:27 well why would she stay with me for a week when she was evicted if that was the
01:35:37 case presumably because she needed somewhere to stay well she asked me if I could help her out and I agreed because we we had this buddy relationship I was very happy for her to stay not for much longer because it was quite limiting but she eventually found a place to stay I
01:35:49 she eventually found a place to stay I think it was at the South London address that we've mentioned before did there come a time when she would was in the process of leaving London and needed a bed for her last
01:36:03 night this might relate to her fact of losing her accommodation as a student which is when she stayed with me for a week uh did you what were the sleeping
01:36:16 week uh did you what were the sleeping Arrangements during that week just one double bed in the room did you sleep together in the same bed yes we did
01:36:24 yeah what physical contact was there between you in that double
01:36:35 between you in that double bed well we slept together in the bed side by side literally or euphemistically
01:36:49 literally uh was there ever a time during the course of that week sharing a double bed with her where you were aroused
01:36:51 aroused um I could imagine woken up one morning and given that impression yes let me put it that way
01:37:04 yes did you make any sexual advance to Andrea McAn at any point during that week no no that wasn't our relationship at
01:37:12 at all was there any physical contact between you in the bed possibly yeah I mean when you're asleep you move around don't you any physical affection yes we had affection yeah yeah that
01:37:24 yeah yeah that involved cuddling touching hugging anything like that no no um like a brother and sister that's the best way to describe our
01:37:43 relationship why would Andrea Manan say that you had made two sexual approaches to her if you had not it's very damaging reputation you to do that to
01:37:49 to me it follows the same process that others have um have abused did she show any sexual interest in you during that week absolutely not no we as I said I
01:38:02 week absolutely not no we as I said I keep on saying we are very much brother sister
01:38:14 relationship uh thank you could we um take that uh down please
01:38:26 the witness we are calling Callum
01:38:37 Callum yes uh says that you told him that you had had a one night stand with a northern
01:38:40 northern woman did you say that to him or anything to that effect I think that's talking about my legend about my having a a relationship and having a
01:38:51 having a a relationship and having a child I guess that where that's come from
01:38:54 from that was in the past wasn't it yes that's right yeah the impression that Callum had was that you were telling him that you'd had a one night
01:39:07 that you'd had a one night stand with a northern woman it's not what my Legend was um prepared like
01:39:18 no an activist that you knew
01:39:20 knew no no it was my Legend was this this relationship that failed with a child that I wasn't able to see not the result of a one night
01:39:32 of a one night stand no it was a it was a short relationship if I remember rightly did you during the course of your undercover deployment ever have a one night stand with a woman from the No
01:39:49 No Robin Lane has given evidence that uh he introduced you to to a French woman who was vegan
01:40:04 you to to a French woman who was vegan right and that you had a one night stand we had a date which resulted in a one night stand uh with the French woman did you have a one night stand at any point during your deployment with a French
01:40:19 deployment with a French woman um well I didn't know and as far as I know what she said was that she didn't remember anything of the sort I pardon I think she said in her statement she didn't know anything of the sort when she was asked I think I've read that in the
01:40:38 documentation she didn't remember that's what I'm being told exactly exactly didn't happen so how would you remember it Robin Lane's girlfriend who we are calling Tanya
01:41:00 are you
01:41:08 sure that's my doesn't Accord with my memory a big that doesn't Accord with my memory about girlfriend no well let's stick with the woman who we are calling Tanya
01:41:21 yes Robin Lane's evidence is that Tanya found you creepy might you have behaved towards Tanya in a way which made her feel that you were
01:41:40 which made her feel that you were creepy well I can tell you that the contact I had with Tanya was was fleeting I I went to Tanya's birthday party I was invited
01:41:58 uh later on after the FASA laboratory raid and all of a load of animals were around at another activist's dress there were a number of male rabbits that started to kill each other so they wanted to get rid of the rabbits and I was asked to take them around to
01:42:09 and I was asked to take them around to Tanya's address because she would look after them which I did
01:42:21 did um at another time I was again tasked to see if she was still involved in the movement and I po around to see her um
01:42:28 and then I think we smoked a joint I think it was it was skunk I was I was almost wasted and I slept over in the adjoining room with the
01:42:40 rabbits that's the only contact I had with it's really quite fleeting did you help her move a
01:42:44 fridge I don't remember that it's
01:42:51 possible can I ask in the round now I've put a great deal of evidence which is adverse to you about your behavior towards female
01:43:13 activists why is there so much evidence if it's all untrue according to you the allegations are significant because I was able to infiltrate the organization and Lely ruin their parade um also at the time was Deputy police
01:43:25 um also at the time was Deputy police crime commissioner for Cambridge and a conservative politician so utter anathema the best attack you can have is to be um attacked in this way with your character being rubbished and your behavior being called into question and
01:43:38 behavior being called into question and it's all of a similar sort of ilk about me being inappropriate with women um having relationships with women that I didn't have um and my feeling is that it's um it's been planned that way that all that
01:43:58 been planned that way that all that information was given roughly at the same time and that they colluded to produce it after all I'd seen them collude before that's my view of it a massive conspiracy and not a massive conspiracy just a few people um colluding together
01:44:11 just a few people um colluding together a few people conspiring together exactly and giving false evidence to this inquiry
01:44:21 yeah can we now go to what I've been colloquially calling the reading case uh yes if we have up please 742
01:44:37 247 thank you we can go to the main body of the report this is a report dated the 5th of February 1992 it's signed by hn 67 on behalf of the chief superintendent we understand it to be based on your intelligence and
01:44:52 it to be based on your intelligence and if we could look at uh paragraphs 2 to 4 pleas
01:45:06 please within the last fortnite firebombs destroyed two butcher vehicles in reading the AL group involved in the attack or thought to have originated from Manchester but may have included London based activists Andrea McAn
01:45:18 London based activists Andrea McAn privacy and privacy it is not possible to confirm the identities of the Manchester based group but it is no known that Manan privacy and privacy spent a week together at an undisclosed location in the company of experienced
01:45:30 location in the company of experienced Alf activists additionally it is known that privacy and privacy left London on
01:45:44 that privacy and privacy left London on or around the first of February 1992 to move to Sheffield and then it gives Andrea manan's um telephone
01:45:58 number is this your your reporting which more than a year later was the subject of the judicial direction that you have uh referred to in your no it's not this case I don't think so I think this one's
01:46:12 think so I think this one's different what is um your evidence uh without naming any names about the circumstances in which you provided intelligence which a judge ultimately ordered should be disclosed at trial
01:46:25 ordered should be disclosed at trial okay let see if I can get this right a year prior to an arrest two individuals came to see me and said they were planning to attack Butch's vehicles in a
01:46:41 to attack Butch's vehicles in a location um they didn't set the date that they would do it
01:46:47 it um and that would it was an going to be an Al action and would I I arranged to support them were arrest to take taken place roughly a year
01:46:58 place roughly a year later these two individuals plus I think a third one or maybe even four were stopped driving in the reading area by a traffic officer it was an excellent stop because in the boot were unused incend
01:47:15 because in the boot were unused incend devices primed and ready to go they were therefore arrested being in possession of incend
01:47:17 of incend devices um so the attack was foiled and then when it came to the Crown Court case because my original
01:47:31 Crown Court case because my original report um detailed two of them coming to see me to say that was going to be what they were going to do in the future um it went into what would have been um the unused bundle and this is very early days of cpia so I think the the bundle then went for the judge to
01:47:44 the bundle then went for the judge to have a look at it who thought that it was relevant to the inquiry even though the arrest was completely coincidental and wasn't connected with any intelligence at all but uh the chge thought it was important so he wished to introduce it as
01:47:55 so he wished to introduce it as evidence um I remember being asked about that and saying look this is only me and two individuals discussing this so it will um reveal me immediately um eventually they decided
01:48:06 immediately um eventually they decided that um they would discontinue the case with negotiations through CPS because of that
01:48:11 that vulnerability and I do remember a news report where these individuals concerned said the only reason we've got office that the police hold information about us that they weren't prepared to
01:48:22 us that they weren't prepared to disclose I I remember that clearly but that wasn't exactly right it was that my identity was kept secure and as a result a perfectly good arrest of people about to burn down a perfectly legitimate
01:48:34 to burn down a perfectly legitimate business was foiled and unfortunately it couldn't go through the process of
01:48:41 Justice can I go to the consequences of those events please can we go in file two to tab B little one 18
01:48:57 737
01:49:09 237 this is quite a long document it's headed uh animal rights National index top right 23rd of June 1993 disclosure issue trial of
01:49:28 of um this appears to be about The Fallout from uh these events and could we go first of all to paragraph
01:49:39 four I'll give you a moment to look at that paragraph which goes over the slightly over the page
01:50:07 yeah that records the decision- making process that you've described and if we go in page two of the this document so the next page at the bottom there's a conclusions paragraph 7 if we could have that um expanded
01:50:22 please and you'll see from the conclusion uh that the author of this document certainly thought it had put the cat among the pigeons is that fair
01:50:40 enough that's my memory of it yeah yeah if we look at subparagraph three in particular whilst the decision by the
01:50:52 particular whilst the decision by the judge in this case may be a perverse one we must assume that it may happen again in the future future Arie has a high profile within Alf circles and they will certainly use the reading decision as a precedent in all future cases we expect
01:51:03 precedent in all future cases we expect a demand for material held at the index to be disclosed and we must carry out an urgent review of the extremely sensitive
01:51:15 urgent review of the extremely sensitive material we hold to evaluate whether its retention is essential so minds are being turned towards what to do about this correct yeah can you recall being
01:51:28 this correct yeah can you recall being involved in any discussions about what to do about the situation that had Arisen the only thing I remember was that um the the management said to me be very careful about what you report until we can sort this out it was very much uh
01:51:41 we can sort this out it was very much uh we don't quite know how this is going to go CPI is brand new um the the unused material stuff wasn't settled and so it was sort of a bit of oh before we we get into further difficulties please don't
01:51:56 into further difficulties please don't report as much as you have been uh what specifically were you asked not to
01:52:08 report I think at the beginning was don't bother reporting anything because we're not quite sure how this is going to go it was sort of almost a blanket ban and how long did that last
01:52:16 for I can't remember exactly it was it wasn't a short thing it took some time to sort out was that on was that a ban that applied to just to you you and no
01:52:27 that applied to just to you you and no names please um being very careful about restriction orders or did it apply to the whole
01:52:29 the whole unit I I don't know for sure but I know it applied to me I not all of the people deployed were in the similar situation of being involved in
01:52:45 crime without identifying any specific person did it apply to anybody other than you again I can't be sure I remember the discussions between the management and myself I I think there
01:52:56 management and myself I I think there that was a one to one I don't remember a sort of General a general discussion about
01:53:00 about it can we go sir in the in the bundle to tab B little 119 uh on the display 737 233
01:53:16 please this is a special Branch memorandum dated the 2nd of July 1993 signed by the head of the SDS hn
01:53:33 hn 86 um I'll give you a moment just to cast your eye over the text if that could be expanded
01:53:53 please yes uh and this is a document which is covering a paper produced by detective Sergeant web isn't it and it's a paper with a proposal as to how to
01:54:15 a paper with a proposal as to how to change intelligence reporting and record keeping yes um with a view to avoiding the involvement of SDS officers and their
01:54:20 their intelligence in the cpia disclosure regime yes um was this discussed with you very likely I'm I have a hazy memory of
01:54:31 of this was the system in fact ever changed or did you ultimately just revert back to reporting
01:54:46 ultimately just revert back to reporting in the way that you always had I reduced my reporting substantially and I think i' there's a lot of verbal reporting that took place for it to be handled differently but that's my memory of it how was the the uh oral reporting
01:54:57 how was the the uh oral reporting handled I telephone in with with issues and I I think that they then had a system in place in the office to deal with it but again I'm not entirely sure how this worked to record it in writing I I don't know how it
01:55:12 worked during the course of the conversations that were had um on this subject was any consideration given to to ensuring that Justice was
01:55:33 done if there was relevant intelligence we had that could be got into the system then it would be done but there were some issues around how it would be protected so again this was a decision for the office not for me you you provide the information they'd make those decisions can you recall any
01:55:44 those decisions can you recall any discussions about how that was going to be done I didn't go into the practice of it no can you recall anybody expressing
01:55:55 it no can you recall anybody expressing any any concerns to ensure that Justice was
01:56:06 done no I can't remember anything specifically if it was said that this was this proposal was a holy improper uh device to subvert the in legislative intent of the cpia what
01:56:18 legislative intent of the cpia what would you say I think the the problem was it was so new people didn't quite understand um how to handle unused material and there were some issues until that became settled and and
01:56:29 until that became settled and and understood that there were some problems with handling but it was a as far as I was concerned I was just doing what I was told which was to reduce my reporting and to make verbal commentary on the telephone if I needed to get anything across I mean we've got
01:56:43 to get anything across I mean we've got your reporting in the bundles I mean you did continue on the face of the papers you appear to have continued reporting in essentially the same way I think there was well there's a difference between reporting on matters and then
01:56:57 between reporting on matters and then reporting on specific criminal activity relating to individuals that might end up in an arrest I think that's the
01:57:08 difference and is it your evidence that you changed the way that you reported that back to your managers so it was purely
01:57:09 purely oral I think so this is what I remember but again it's a hazy memory for me and was that a permanent change for the rest of your
01:57:22 deployment uh I was getting toward the end of my deployment I think I was winding down a at that stage so actually my my level of reporting had reduced somewhat
01:57:31 somewhat but you were my my contacts weren't really in terms of people actively involved in crime as far as I remember at that stage you were deployed for more than another year after this exactly yeah yeah so there was quite a lot of reporting still there was still
01:57:42 reporting still there was still reporting on individuals that's right yeah and some events as well but this is specifically about individuals about to be engaged in crime or actually actively engaged in crime at the time time I think and is again I'm struggling to
01:57:54 think and is again I'm struggling to remember you forgive me well is it your evidence that you didn't report that in writing after this
01:58:07 date I don't think so I don't think so but again I I'm not exactly clear on it so would that be a convenient moment to take the morning break
01:58:18 to take the morning break certainly we'll um break for 15 minutes all right
02:15:19 e e
02:16:18 some
02:16:33 thank you sir I'm afraid Mr Cole and legislative confusion has crept into um your evidence and my questions which I need to correct uh the CP yes got royal Ascent in July
02:16:46 CP yes got royal Ascent in July 1996 we've been talking about a report in
02:16:52 in 1993 right um the legal framework at the time was the Attorney General's guidelines of 1982 thank you I yeah somewhat struggling with it myself the same point uh apply it was an intention
02:17:06 same point uh apply it was an intention to try and get around the guidelines and preserve the operational security of the SDS yes yeah as to your
02:17:18 SDS yes yeah as to your reporting subsequently could we have up please 737 238
02:17:26 it's tab c275
02:17:40 sir page two this is a November 1993 report about Robin web yes paragraph
02:17:53 six most recently web has shown great enthusiasm for the actions of the animal rights militia it remains to be seen if he has personal knowledge of the IEDs that were discovered at Watford sorting office the two devices are injured to animal abusers in barkshire and
02:18:06 animal abusers in barkshire and Oxfordshire or the hoax device sent to the employee of Glo in hartfordshire however in an unguarded moment at the London Greenpeace Fair on the 30th of October 1993 he joked I've infiltrated
02:18:22 October 1993 he joked I've infiltrated the rspca I've infil rated the ALF and now I'm infiltrating the armm so it would appear that
02:18:35 armm so it would appear that some at least some intelligence about a specific individual in relation to um suspected
02:18:41 suspected arrm involvement is being reported by November of 1993 yeah as the Press officer for the ALF of course he was been very careful not to do that but in in private moments you might say that he was supportive of more radical
02:18:52 more radical action um and the armm presumably in terms of your intelligence goals knowing who was active under the armm banner
02:19:03 who was active under the armm banner presumably pretty close to the top of the list yeah this I think is one of the very few references to the armm in your reporting right yes
02:19:28 and I'm being reminded that in your witness statement you were ordered at one point by hn 86 to withdraw because of away from a potential of being drawn into armm activity because the
02:19:39 into armm activity because the criminality was too exactly it was it was to reduce my involvement there yeah but from the point we were just pursuing before um the break you're you are when you get some specific intelligence
02:19:50 you get some specific intelligence reporting it by November 93 yes just just to show the um hypocrisy of um of the LF press officer and talking actually about much more serious crime
02:20:01 actually about much more serious crime could we take that down now please can we go in volume 2 tab B little 128 to
02:20:22 74699 um this is a document about a threat to the operational security of the SDS posed at the time by detective
02:20:33 the SDS posed at the time by detective Sergeant Mike chitty uh could we go to page seven
02:20:42 please paragraph nine Under The Heading specific threat to DS Andy CO's um and you will see there it says it will be recall that DS chitty has one
02:20:55 it will be recall that DS chitty has one ace in his hand in terms of his links as Mike Blake to the ALF his longstanding friendship with former Al press officer Robin Lane then if we go over the
02:21:11 page DS Andy Kohl's with three and a half years undercover experience in the animal Liberation field is a close associate of Robin Lane and operates in the same area of South London as Mike Blake they both recently attend an animal rights farewell meal in
02:21:23 animal rights farewell meal in stram prior to that occasion DS Kohl's had no knowledge of ever having met DS chitty DS chitty has since made it known
02:21:38 chitty DS chitty has since made it known that he suspects the man he met that day by the name of Andy to be the current South London Alf SDS officer he has indicated that he wants to speak to him to warn him his efforts to date have been thwarted
02:21:57 been thwarted can I start first of all the background here is a concern was that Mike jitty might uh do something which would compromise the operational security of the
02:22:07 the SDS or and or some of its officers including
02:22:11 including you highly manipulative mover yes to to try to get off his um uh potential sacking offense and um Financial uh irregularities yes um
02:22:34 yes um the farewell meal in stram at which you were both present can you assist us uh was that the first time that you had seen DS
02:22:37 seen DS chitty uh mixing with activists after his deployment the only time and and it actually it wasn't a farewell meal it was a birthday party for
02:22:51 was a birthday party for Tanya did you recognize him I'd never met him
02:23:03 met him before so how how did you come to know that a former SDS UCO had been at the same meal as you with your targets
02:23:05 targets um yes good question
02:23:16 um yes good question uh he turned up with um a girlfriend and they had a baby and it was odd um
02:23:26 he left I asked um Robin Lane who he was he said oh we think he's the um special Branch spy that was sent to us before watch out about him very strange so I reported it and uh um I was told ah yes
02:23:40 reported it and uh um I was told ah yes we know who that is now and then can you write a report outlining the circumstances which I did was the woman in question the woman that we are ciphering as Lizzy
02:24:02 um I have to take your advice on that I I one and only time I met the person so if you're saying that's the person I'd accept it but I I couldn't tell you myself I'm not allowed to give evidence so we'll have to there
02:24:15 so we'll have to there um can we now go to your manager's reaction what was your manager's reaction to your reporting that the person we now know to be Mike jitty was at that
02:24:26 was at that meal ask me to write a full report on it
02:24:37 meal ask me to write a full report on it and I I didn't see this report about the management action that was decided that I wasn't party to that I see so moving now from the meal itself uh to the um threat to your security can we move to paragraph 9.5
02:24:54 in a telephone call to the writer on Wednesday evening the 25th of May and the writer is Bob Lambert he complained that he was being denied a legitimate opportunity to speak to Andy in the
02:25:06 opportunity to speak to Andy in the circumstances he said he would have no alternative but to contact Andy via
02:25:18 alternative but to contact Andy via Robin Lane again he said his purpose was to warn him of the danger he faced and then 9.6
02:25:21 then 9.6 goes on to say that you um were currently on annual leave at the time
02:25:36 currently on annual leave at the time time reporting back for Duty in two days time on the 31st of May when the matter would be discussed with you was the matter discussed with you that would appear to be right my memory isn't great on that but I would guess I guess there was feedback yeah I that would be entirely appropriate did
02:25:50 that would be entirely appropriate did looks it looks like I'm ing there which says no I'm not bothered because um Robin has rather more regard for me and because I reported what that conversation was with him he said he thinks he's an SB spy
02:26:10 thinks he's an SB spy anyway but if he was suspected of being a spy himself and he wanted to contact you that would have given rise to suspicions wouldn't it
02:26:17 it um yeah help helpful to avoid that if possible but um I I think
02:26:25 I I think um I was probably better established than he ever was let me put it that
02:26:38 way Mr Lane has denied ever expressing such a suspicion to you are you sure that it was him who did so
02:26:47 yeah did chitty ever try to contact you I wasn't aware of it no he never tried to contact me directly as far as I know it would have been hard I only had a pag number which he probably didn't have he didn't know where I
02:27:01 lived uh and what is your view as to how well your management handled the threat of compromise that arose from like jit's threats well I wasn't compromised and uh I continued my deployment so fine could
02:27:17 I continued my deployment so fine could we take that down and go now in the same file sir to tab B little one 9 document
02:27:33 74698 um this is a branch note dated the 1st of June 1994 it's signed by the then assistant chief
02:27:42 chief superintendent acting Chief yeah sorry acting Chief superintendent hn 337 and it's essentially the note of a meeting at which uh the acting Chief
02:27:58 meeting at which uh the acting Chief superintendent came and spoke to the SDS about the threat posed by Mike chitty do you recall being present I do remember it yes I remember some fairly colorful language about the
02:28:11 colorful language about the Betrayal a strong sense of anger about how dare he that's his behavior yeah uh was the feeling that managers were going to do everything in their power to protect the operational
02:28:23 power to protect the operational security of the SDS yeah the same
02:28:34 security of the SDS yeah the same question that I asked you essentially about SDS management what was your impression of senior Management's handling of this
02:28:43 issue um yes very happy with that response
02:28:51 response yeah can we take that down now please different topic file one tab B little 133
02:28:54 133 745
02:29:07 796 uh this is a branch note headed operation bore hole 22nd of July
02:29:23 operation bore hole 22nd of July 1994 um I'll let you orientate yourself um with the document if we could have Central text uh expanded please thank you
02:30:05 yes so the context is police want to find Barry Horn yes if we go to paragraph three specifically uh four observation posts
02:30:21 specifically uh four observation posts have been established in connection with this inquiry to locat Horn three are mounted on the headquarters of McDonald's next to East Finchley Tube Station what was your knowledge whilst you were deployed of
02:30:36 deployed of contact between McDonald's as a company and special branch in relation to animal rights activity and other activist activ
02:30:51 activity and other activist activ activity directed against the McDonald's company I would have had absolutely no knowledge of it or contact I mean that would have been handled by a completely different group it might I think it said they're s so13 so it might even have
02:31:08 they're s so13 so it might even have been a completely different department was there any contact between the SDS and McDonald's no uh to protect them from the criminal activities activists did you at any time have any personal contact with McDonald's security
02:31:24 ever no I don't think I have no did you know a man called Sid
02:31:32 Nicholson in what context he was a former senior police officer who went to work for McDonald's Security in a senior
02:31:44 capacity I can remember a DS Nicholson I don't know if it's the same person from about when uh when of De Nicholson actually when he left it was prior to my deployment I think I remember him as a
02:32:02 deployment I think I remember him as a member of the branch H how far back 80s ' 90s yeah yeah around that sort of time I don't know if it's the same person but I I do remember di Nicholson yeah was there any discussion in the safe house about the M liel case
02:32:21 case um not especially I mean I did go to one of their um meetings but um that was um not a sort of discussion within management it just came up as one event to go to that was part of um what was going on in terms of animal rights in
02:32:32 going on in terms of animal rights in London when you say an event to go to could you expand on that please uh I think it may have just been advertised at a London animal action or an elbag meeting it's coming up um I remember it was um the two individuals concerned we're talking
02:32:50 individuals concerned we're talking about the current state of play with the case I think did you go yes did you report on
02:32:51 report on it possibly yes orally or in writing I would guess by report I don't if I was the only one there either I'm not sure
02:33:03 the only one there either I'm not sure but I remember being there and why were you reporting on the defense of a liable claim I think I was reporting
02:33:17 claim I think I was reporting on what they were saying in a public meeting about the defense of a Lial Claim about the case yeah yeah what was the policing value in
02:33:33 that I suppose the people that went there were people who were actively involved and interested um both very high-profile individuals were involved so it's worthwhile to report what they were
02:33:44 report what they were saying do you know what was done with your reporting no might it have been used to in form
02:33:55 no might it have been used to in form McDonald's of uh what was being done to defend the claim I don't know I'm unlikely but I don't
02:34:00 don't know thank you can we take that down
02:34:07 please you had some involvement with a group uh lar or sometimes AR L yes animal rights Coalition London yes and
02:34:21 animal rights Coalition London yes and that eventually Amalgamated into London Animal
02:34:26 Animal Aid action sorry blondon animal action with
02:34:27 with elbag I think so yeah yeah and it's calling them Grand names it's actually just a group of individuals coming together eventually settled as London Animal Action so London Animal Action
02:34:41 Animal Action so London Animal Action that leads into my next question did did it have a core of about 10
02:34:48 people there might be some reporting to that effect yeah yeah and held monthly meetings yeah it's like a continuance of the of the elbag meetings but the boots action side of it have been dropped from more more broader
02:35:04 have been dropped from more more broader um aims I think um 25 to 30 people might attend one of their meetings sounds familiar yeah shared in office with London Green Peace uh
02:35:16 Peace uh yes unconditionally supportive of the AL I'd say so but not itself an organization that was institutionally involved in crime exactly the the name was clean the individuals within it were pretty
02:35:30 pretty dirty all of them or just some of them hard to
02:35:32 hard to say on
02:35:37 say on what been very careful with names yes in relation to how many of them did you have specific knowledge that they were involved in criminal activity to advance the cause of animal rights I think
02:35:48 the cause of animal rights I think individuals that in the past have been involved with in in Al AC so how many would that be approximately uh probably half a
02:36:02 dozen as you say a much broader group than elbag involved in a wide variety of campaigning activities to promote Animal Welfare yes but also a great collection point for animal activists around the
02:36:17 point for animal activists around the city it's like a a social club as well as an activists group
02:36:22 and how Rowdy or otherwise were their
02:36:33 demonstrations we're all pretty practiced at it by that stage so I think probably fairly
02:36:39 effective lawful or criminal oo
02:36:51 uh mostly lawful I would think yeah yeah in terms of your role within the organization the inquiry has heard evidence uh in response to your witness statement
02:37:06 statement that you didn't work on the newsletter what is your response to that
02:37:08 that um I helped with the early ones I had the computer and I had the software and the ability to do it so I know I didn't continue for very long but I did get involved I think in the early part of
02:37:22 involved I think in the early part of the the the organization what did you do to contribute to the newsletter oh gosh I can't remember can I just refer to my statement to refresh my memory I'm not entirely sure I'm I'm only interested in your recollection now
02:37:35 only interested in your recollection now okay we can we've got your statement and we can rely on that right okay organizing meetings it suggested you
02:37:47 organizing meetings it suggested you didn't play a role doing that no I think by that stage I was involved in other things I was turning up as a member uh and uh deciding what news article what was news yeah and there's always a demand for material to go in the column inches
02:38:06 for material to go in the column inches and occasionally I wrote something there may have been some some reporting about um the vi section is doing something horrendous and so you would write something about that for example but I can't recall specific no I can't recall specific things that I
02:38:18 wrote uh and it's been suggested that you are not an London Animal Action
02:38:24 organizer
02:38:35 um towards the end of my deployment I I reduced my involvement I think I was early days I was involved can I move now uh to a completely different matter back to hunt sabotage Essex
02:38:54 sabotage Essex 1994 yes could we have um volume 8 C 31746
02:38:56 31746 075
02:39:07 please this is a report dated the 11th of October 1994 and it's Advance intelligence about um the fox hunting season for 1994 for
02:39:20 season for 1994 for 1995 now
02:39:23 1995 now the background to this hunting season
02:39:36 the background to this hunting season was the change in the law wasn't it um criminal justice and public order yes that's right yeah um if we look at paragraph
02:39:38 paragraph two it is one of the intentions of hunt sabur to make a strong stand against the criminal justice Bill and its
02:39:49 criminal justice Bill and its criminalization of trespassed by m maintaining business as usual is that a sentiment that you would have
02:40:11 reported yeah I think so in paragraph three one of the most committed sabotage groups the Brixton hunt sabur group has resolved the transportation problems that restricted its activities last season and it now has at least one Land Rover operational yeah over the page paragraph
02:40:28 paragraph four principal hunt sabotage groups are West London hunt sabur Group which is capable of pulling out 30 to 40 sabur and the Brixton Group which is normally 10 to 20 strong on its outings other groups in the region include
02:40:40 other groups in the region include they're then listed at a regional hit on a fox hunt in excess of 150 hunt seaters can be expected to turn out now this is a report signed by U DCI Edmonson who
02:40:59 a report signed by U DCI Edmonson who was then in charge of the SDS wasn't he um is this based on your reporting I think not just me probably hm1 as well it looks like a combined report um we heard uh yesterday that
02:41:12 report um we heard uh yesterday that your targeting plan was to let the hunt sabotage fall away at a relatively early stage and move
02:41:33 stage and move into targeting the AL yes why is it that you are being drawn back into reporting or contributing to reports on Hunt sabotage in 1994 it's it's this Resurgence and the um effect of the groups trying to
02:41:44 um effect of the groups trying to undermine the new legislation I think was exercising people's minds and believing that would be significant disorder as a result if if I remember rightly that's why I got drawn back into it I thought i' managed to escape all of
02:41:55 it I thought i' managed to escape all of that but I think I was back again and in order to get this Intelligence on the ground what does that mean in practice does that mean you're spending more time going to brickton
02:42:06 going to brickton squats not just there chatting to um sabs and and you know people in some positions of authority that could give me the sort of more strategic
02:42:18 me the sort of more strategic information about what was planned but this is a different cohort of people to those you had been reporting on in '92 and 93 overlapping overlapping yeah yeah some some would
02:42:34 overlapping yeah yeah some some would have been the same people there may have been new people on on the Block I'm not entirely sure and I don't think it's just me reporting this now if we go please in the same bundle sir to tab c317 document number 745
02:42:47 745 541 this is the report about uh the day
02:43:01 itself it's right that you attended this um hunt sabotage this Mass hit yes in what role did you participate just as a
02:43:11 just as a sap did you drive
02:43:22 I'm not sure actually I'm just wondering whether I was driving the um brickton Land Rover or whether I was driving my vanan I'm I'm not
02:43:33 vanan I'm I'm not sure there's so many Subs that I've been to it's all a bit of a bit of a blur that answer suggest some uncertainty three decades later about
02:43:47 uncertainty three decades later about precisely which vehicle you were driving but can I infer from that answer that your recollection is that you were driving something
02:43:53 my my best guess is I was driving the van I mean I yeah I think that's probably what happened because I I probably wasn't driving if it was just one land driver available then there was one person who loved to drive that vehicle and that would have been him
02:44:10 vehicle and that would have been him that would have done that but presumably if this was a mass hit and therefore a big call out there would have been a demand for transport exactly
02:44:17 yes at the first substantive paragraph some 22 members members of the Brixton hunt sabur group participated with some 350 other sabs in this Mass sabotage
02:44:30 350 other sabs in this Mass sabotage attack on the Essex Farmers hunt on the 19th of November the participants assembled at South MIM service station on the M25 A1 intersection the Essex
02:44:43 on the M25 A1 intersection the Essex Farmers hunt was selected as a Target at the assembly Point primarily because privacy privacy a local hunt sa organizer had obtained details of the Hunts meeting plans can you recall going to South MIM service station yeah I
02:44:54 to South MIM service station yeah I think I do yeah and is the intelligence about numbers and uh the reason for this hunt being targeted information that has come from
02:45:05 come from you I'm not entirely sure I'm not entirely sure about that the sabot vehicles left South mims in comvoy and headed for the Essex Farmers meeting
02:45:17 headed for the Essex Farmers meeting place at little Easter Essex one of the BHS G Vehicles was taken off the road because it had no Road tax displayed the other driven by HSA Walter took back roads to approach
02:45:34 HSA Walter took back roads to approach the hunt from a different direction to the maor to the majority of
02:45:40 sabur yes which vehicle was taken off the
02:45:50 road my guess would be the pig which would have been the smaller Land Rover I'm guessing here because they did I think the early reporting was that they had transport problems I know the the Beast was the big Land Rover that was
02:46:03 Beast was the big Land Rover that was pretty functional the pig the smaller one used to fall apart occasionally so would it be reasonable for us to proceed on the basis you were still driving your van yeah that does sound right
02:46:14 right yeah was Walter driving the other Land Rover that that's what the report says I'm I'm not sure I can remember that and presumably you're not sure whether it's
02:46:28 presumably you're not sure whether it's your contribution to this report or I'm not entirely sure
02:46:41 no the hunt was found near mashbury Road and the Brixton sabot left their vehicle and ran towards the hunters at this stage police moved in and arrested several of the bhsg members who were handcuffed and placed
02:46:53 handcuffed and placed in a prison van once fall this vehicle drove off taking the prisoners to Chelmsford and ohal police stations tempers flared among those sabs remaining once it became clear that
02:47:05 remaining once it became clear that police were arresting any sabot who left the road or who remonstrated with officers this prompted more aggressive confrontation with police and more
02:47:19 confrontation with police and more violent assaults yeah uh to what EXT exent had
02:47:26 exent had um the actions of the hunt sabots been pre-planned
02:47:33 yeah that's a difficult one to it's not as if you've got um a particularly focused Planet let's go down and disrupt the hunt people would have had Maps um people would have got out to charge in
02:47:47 people would have got out to charge in and try to obstruct the hunt when they saw it moving through the field and to what EXT extent would experience sabot simply being following established practice I think you get braver when
02:48:01 practice I think you get braver when you've got lots of you around and they might have been um more aggressive in their
02:48:05 their approach and can we take it if one of the brickton um hunt sabotage group vehicles have broken down that your van and the other Land Rover were pretty full of people I would imagine so
02:48:20 yes um your W I'm being told that your witness statement says that you pulled up in the bhsg
02:48:30 bhsg Landrover can I take it that your oral evidence today is likely to be more reliable having been taken through it step by
02:48:39 step by step now what I think has happened is that I've parked my van up and we're we're running around in the field and then as things go you get picked up in various Vehicles by various subgroups I'm I'm wondering whether that's more more accurate but I'm struggling
02:48:59 here did you witness the arrests I think I was one of the first arrested well very early on certainly could you describe to us first of all your your the moments leading up to your own arrest and what happened when you
02:49:13 own arrest and what happened when you were arrested from what I can remember um the hunt was coming from right to left in front of us across the field we were on a road here here and then the police started arriving in numbers and I thought this looks like there's going to
02:49:27 thought this looks like there's going to be a swoop I better get out the way took to running across the field to get out of the way and unfortunately that was taken by an officer to be an attempt to disrupt the hunt and he grabbed me and arrested me fairly quickly
02:49:41 quickly how could that R action of running away running away from the Hun no running away from the police towards where the hunt were you were running towards the hunt I was yes that's right but if if I've understood your evidence your motive for running away was to escape
02:49:53 motive for running away was to escape the police try not to be arrested so I could provide more intelligence later on because there was clearly some sort of swoop being planned yeah were you
02:50:04 swoop being planned yeah were you running on your own or with other people um I think I started to run because I
02:50:16 um I think I started to run because I saw the problem coming before others I think that's right did anyone follow you I'm not entirely sure was um the man we are calling
02:50:27 the man we are calling Walter anywhere near you when you were arrested um I I was faced down in the dirt I didn't see anybody else around me before or after I was in the the prison van that parked up and I I had no other view
02:50:39 view before sorry I'm not entirely sure afj the man we're calling afj sorry let me just Qui check that
02:50:52 he would have been there certainly what can you recall of his presence I'm I'm pretty sure it's the same I'm not sure it is the same hunt now I think an earlier incident took
02:51:04 now I think an earlier incident took place where there was a confrontation between officers near I think a farm when the officers were attacked by
02:51:18 farm when the officers were attacked by the the Brixton crew and one officer had a leg broken this is my memory I'm not sure if it is the same hun I'm pretty sure it is because that was the most aggressive thing we've been to um and I was at the back of the crowd when that happened I remember that but that was earlier than than my arrest well what I'm interested
02:51:32 than my arrest well what I'm interested in was it no that was the S6 sorry what I'm interested in is whether he was anywhere near you when you were
02:51:40 arrested it's possible that we were a brickton group close to each other that is possible yeah was he the one running towards the hunt I can't remember sorry um
02:51:52 hunt I can't remember sorry um whether or not you saw his arrest I don't remember it now
02:52:00 yeah are you able to help us with why other sabar were running towards the hunt I remember horns being blown and the and the effort was to disrupt the the Hunt's progress across the field they're all running towards the hunt did
02:52:14 they're all running towards the hunt did it have anything to do with avoiding the police
02:52:18 police swoop I don't think so no because they there was that action of movement towards the hunt I was on the roadway then the police came to the SW and I thought arrest are going to take place I must get out the way so I think that's the way it worked can we move over the page in the
02:52:32 report top paragraph
02:52:39 please it was later reported that two of the sabs involved in an assault which left a police officer unconscious had been privacy and privacy and Alias of privacy privacy is said to have taken the Fallen officer's telescopic Tron
02:52:51 the Fallen officer's telescopic Tron both escaped arrest some of the sabot noted the numbers of officers who had in their opinion treated sabs in a particularly rough Manner and these officers were being lined up for
02:53:09 officers were being lined up for retaliation later in the day is this the incident that you gave evidence about a moment ago involving an officer suffering a broken leg I think that's the same yes it's I'm I remember it as being a broken leg but unconscious yeah absolutely
02:53:24 um that isn't said here to have involved afj at
02:53:26 afj at all
02:53:34 no um is this your reporting or is this intelligence that's come from somebody
02:53:39 else I'm not
02:53:48 sure I mean that sounds like that's a later discussion after we've got back to brickton people are sort of venting their spleen about the police activities
02:53:59 their spleen about the police activities of the day that's what it sounds like to me uh you are arrested as you say you are taken
02:54:02 are taken into uh custody yeah you had discussed with your managers and in particular DCI Edmondson what you were gain to do if you were
02:54:16 what you were gain to do if you were arrested yes that's right and that's presumably I had a plan presumably because there was a high risk of arrest yes and is it right that at this stage in the SDS as history officers were
02:54:29 in the SDS as history officers were being told that if you end up in court that it may well be the end of your deployment yes so was the thinking that you running a high risk of arrest you
02:54:42 you running a high risk of arrest you had to have a way of being arrested but not ending up in court um I think the reason why I was trying to get out the way was to avoid that situation ever developing yeah but if
02:54:55 situation ever developing yeah but if the worst happened and you were arrested you had to have a plan there was a plan yeah and the plan was directed at avoiding you having to appear in court uh I think that was the end result I
02:55:08 uh I think that was the end result I don't think that it was formulated at that stage well can you help us with what the motivation behind the plan was
02:55:17 um I plan to use not my false name but a false false name and not my false address but a false false address apologies for the complication no that that is perfectly clear right uh whose idea was that um well the false false
02:55:30 idea was that um well the false false address was one that was provided for sabs by the hunt sabs themselves it was like the bail address if you got arrested and you wanted to have an address that wasn't your own um and I came up with a name and discussed that
02:55:41 came up with a name and discussed that with DCI abon as far as I can remember as a a way of getting around the issue of being arrested under my um operational name so I'm getting the
02:55:53 operational name so I'm getting the impression that it's a case of you going to Edmonson and saying I might get arrested if I do this is what I'm proposing to do are you happy is is that there is a discussion that takes place yeah it's not the other way around could be actually but I'm I'm
02:56:05 around could be actually but I'm I'm thinking it was from me to him rather than the other way around uh you give the false address the false false address and the false false name
02:56:17 name yeah uh could we have a look please in volume
02:56:19 volume 3 uh
02:56:30 3 uh B2 Roman Roman numeral to uh number four 526
02:56:32 526 749
02:56:49 please and could we go to paragraph to page two
02:57:06 please arrest of uh SDS undercover officer Andy koh's um I'll give you a moment to familiarize yourself with the text
02:57:33 yeah paragraph one records uh your arrest and charge yes it says at the end of that paragraph at no time was his role as an undercover police officer revealed or compromised yes can I take it from the fact that
02:57:45 yes can I take it from the fact that that is put uh right at the start of this report written by DC C Edmonson on the 22nd of November uh that
02:58:00 Edmonson on the 22nd of November uh that the overarching priority was maintaining the operational security of the SDS yes uh the charge is then set out at paragraph 1.2 and you've been charged
02:58:11 paragraph 1.2 and you've been charged under Section 68 of the criminal justice and public order act the very provision that's this underlying issue at the sabotage paragraph
02:58:20 paragraph 2.2
02:58:29 please DS Kohl's attended the demonstration as a member of the brickton hunt sabur group well known as a violent confrontational organization the group numbering 22 joined approximately 350 other hunt sabot and decided to
02:58:43 350 other hunt sabot and decided to disrupt the Essex hunt so that seems to have been taken straight from the report with
02:58:53 with yeah uh earlier that seems to just that I was the sole um person reporting as well from that from that particular paragraph 2.3 at 11:45 DS Kohl's was
02:59:05 paragraph 2.3 at 11:45 DS Kohl's was amongst a group of sabot who arrived at the scene and immediately left their vehicle to run across Open Fields towards the hunt no mention of a police swoop there no it's highly summarized report but um yeah police off but it does go on
02:59:20 but um yeah police off but it does go on to say police officers chased after them yes PC Anonymous chased DS Kohl's grabbed his coattails and pulled him to the ground after a short struggle DS Kohl's was handcuffed and taken into
02:59:31 Kohl's was handcuffed and taken into custody together with other activists from Brixton in all 33 Sabers were arrested during the course of the day Diaz Cole's uninjured presumably that's a nod to
02:59:45 uninjured presumably that's a nod to your welfare yes and to the fact that um arrests at Hunt sabotagers could be pretty rough yeah yeah it could be quite U uncomfortable was taken by prison van
02:59:58 U uncomfortable was taken by prison van to chelsford police station where he was duly processed in keeping with the best traditions of his saur group he gave false details to the police in your case false false details uh to the police describing himself as Christopher Andrew
03:00:15 describing himself as Christopher Andrew Jones date of birth the 13th of February 1964 of Plato Road Brixton is that the name that you gave
03:00:27 Brixton is that the name that you gave yes I didn't use the first name though that was um a silent Christopher to Andrew Jones that's how how was described yeah uh and then at the end of that paragraph entirely in accordance with contingency plans agreed with me prior to the event which we've spoken
03:00:39 prior to the event which we've spoken about already at 2.5 again in keeping with his cover role DS Cole's asked to speak to a solicitor primed in advance to act for Arrested activists he
03:00:52 to act for Arrested activists he eventually spoke to the solicitor and was advised to make no comment in interview advice he adhered to Yes uh so this is the same solicitor who's advising a number of Arrested persons
03:01:08 advising a number of Arrested persons yeah I think I remember his name as well but yes it someone the HSA advised um would be a very um useful contact were you advised in a group or individually
03:01:23 H I have a feeling there was some sort of briefing at South Mims legal briefing CI legal briefing yeah yeah yeah about what to do on the day and and you normally get a a note which would say and this is the duty
03:01:35 which would say and this is the duty solister at the bottom with the phone number right and that's essentially to inform you of your rights that's right yeah um with a view to staying on the
03:01:46 yeah um with a view to staying on the right side of the law and asserting your rights if arrested exactly yeah that's right I'm interested in my question was
03:01:59 right I'm interested in my question was directed at uh once you'd been arrested in the legal advice you were given to exercise your right right to silence right to silence were you given that advice alone or you given that advice in a
03:02:10 a group no that was during the phone call that came from the solicitor so on the tel if you're arrested this is's number would be the the briefing and then at the time on the phone that's what he advised me to do I see so just to you yes it was just a
03:02:30 see so just to you yes it was just a private phone call and of course the cic had no idea that the person they were actually advising was an undercover police officer good advice though whilst you were in custody did you speak to either Walter or afj I was shared being told I'm being
03:02:41 afj I was shared being told I'm being reminded that Walter wasn't arrested no did he speak to afj not in the same cell as I think there were three or four of us in the same cell I'm not I don't think he people from other sub groups I
03:02:55 think he people from other sub groups I seem to remember it's quite a long wait we played ball with mud from our boots for about 3 or 4 hours while we waiting to be seen that's that I remember did you use that opportunity as an
03:03:08 you use that opportunity as an intelligence gathering uh exercise um I might have had some information from people um just having a chat about who they were where they were from and so on that's possible yeah did you were you keeping your ear ears open in case
03:03:20 keeping your ear ears open in case anybody said anything that would be of relevance to Future legal proceedings to do with the arrests yeah no
03:03:28 no no we thought that that we might be recorded so there was quite guarded conversation in the cell you were then um ultimately bailed weren't you that's right
03:03:43 weren't you that's right yeah if we go to the bottom of the page paragraph four
03:03:58 4.1 in a separate incident at the huntter police officer was injured in an attack by hunt sabotage in DS Kohl's report circulating separately and subject to caveat on dissemination he provides intelligence concerning the identities of suspects and other
03:04:07 and other important matters so that's we're back to the the matter we looked at from the report but this seems to attribute the
03:04:19 report but this seems to attribute the intelligence to you I think this is post event reporting when I've had a chance to meet up with everyone and discuss what happened and picking up whatever information people had to say about what happened that's my my um best guess do you know whether there was any arrest or
03:04:35 you know whether there was any arrest or trial in relation to the assaults on the police officer no no you can't remember or no there wasn't no I can't remember uh future action paragraph five
03:04:56 thank you uh DS Kohl's is scheduled to leave the field in February 1995 plans for his departure are in train his arrest does not complicate matters it is suggested that he may simply fail to
03:05:07 suggested that he may simply fail to appear at court that would certainly be in keeping with his cover role in the event that a warrant is issued for his arrest service would not be affected as
03:05:22 arrest service would not be affected as he has given a false name and address by February DS Kohl's the activist will be known within the hunab animal rights Community to have left the country thus the matter would remain harmlessly on
03:05:33 the matter would remain harmlessly on file for an appropriate period departure from the field is an important and delicate operation when the officer is leading is a leading personality within
03:05:51 leading is a leading personality within the Al I am satisfied that DS Kohl's is handling the matter of withdrawal with the utmost care and attention the the arrest incident may prove to be of operational
03:06:04 assistance so you can see there that the plan is that you are going to fail to appear at court and because you are about to withdraw from your deployment you you your false false Persona will never be tracked down and right uh
03:06:17 arrested can you help us with the circumstances in which that plan was
03:06:29 hatched I think post arrest we had this discussion about how best to handle it um and the fact I'd sort of largely withdrawn from um animal rights activity it it just made sense to follow my um extraction strategy and
03:06:43 to follow my um extraction strategy and just disappear in February and it so it fitted quite nicely in that answer who was we I'm guessing it's um the the office management
03:06:54 management myself so who does that mean in practice DCI admins yes it does yeah and the DI probably yeah and maybe a DS or two in also involved in the conversation whose idea is
03:07:07 conversation whose idea is it this was the management decision that's not quite the same thing whose idea was it whose idea was to
03:07:19 whose idea was it whose idea was to propose this yes the management propos this as a as a way out and then the management proposed and authorized exactly I think that's right what was your view I was quite happy because I was about to go
03:07:31 anyway I wasn't be going on another Sab that was another great opportunity to keep away from all of that and the last sentence of the report that that we've just
03:07:40 just read arrest instant may prove to be of operational assistance that is essentially what you've been saying from an SDS point of view it was regarded as a good way
03:07:54 a good way of helping to cover your extraction yeah it gave me excuse not to be involved in some of these later sabs mass sabs and so on because I would have been arrested and then locked up so I had great reasons not to get involved and
03:08:07 reasons not to get involved and so what was I just want to explore with you what it was envisaged would happen um you had been bailed yes charged with an offense yes
03:08:21 an offense yes uh summonsed to appear bailed to appear at magistrates Court Chelmsford yeah you're not going to turn up yeah uh you would expect the police to apply for a warrant for your arrest I think one was
03:08:35 warrant for your arrest I think one was applied for y to the court I would guess so so the court is being asked to issue a warrant for the arrest of Christopher Andrew Jones who is in fact
03:08:52 Andrew Jones who is in fact um Andrew called a police officer yes and warrant issued I'm not entirely sure the item would lay on file sticks in my mind as something that came up as part of this
03:09:06 something that came up as part of this process but the the details of this I'm not entirely sure because I wasn't really made aware of it Court misled as to your
03:09:11 to your identity uh this is a possibility yes it's not a possibility is it if a if a war was issued that that is the defacto case yes
03:09:22 case yes exactly when uh you and your managers were hatching this plan was any thought given to the fact that it would involve misleading the
03:09:46 court I remember it as a discussion about was it a practical thing rather than the the Le legal
03:09:53 matters I take that as a no I'm sorry I can't
03:09:56 can't remember uh can we go to the next page please which is the um sets out the charge thank you if we could expand the bit right at the top of the page
03:10:18 please person charged Jones Christopher Andrew that's your that's your full false false name isn't it yes is that because you in fact gave them your full false false
03:10:32 false false name we had a long discussion about the use of Christopher with the um custody officer said no it's not my name it's I don't use that name and it was um
03:10:48 was um something of a discussion I gave him my full name but said I don't use the Christopher so you gave the full full false false name sorry
03:11:10 yes you've described speaking to your immediate SDS managers about the plan to not appear at court do you know whether or not any of any more senior managers were consulted um on this issue I I don't know I wasn't made aware of that from your experience is it likely that that it
03:11:22 that that it happened I honestly don't know it's this the first experience I've had of being put into this situation could we take down this document and have up from file 7 tab
03:11:36 222 um gosh my junior produced quite awesome notes um
03:11:44 22105 double it uncore d0
03:12:10 two this is a upto-date an information performer dated the 26th of January 1993 so approximately 10 months earlier you'll see on the right hand side of the page halfway down attributed to you uh this is a report about a
03:12:24 you uh this is a report about a Christopher and we've redacted the middle name Christopher Jones or Chris a voluntary worker at 56a infoshop Collective and if we look at the
03:12:43 Collective and if we look at the text it says subject is the main stay of the 56a Bookshop and he is prepared to speak spend many fruitless hours Manning the premises he recently moved to his new address in privacy to be closer to
03:12:54 new address in privacy to be closer to the shop and also because his old flat was due for demolition privacy privacy although he is a by Nature a mild
03:13:06 although he is a by Nature a mild mannered and inoffensive individual who is far more interested in theoretical anarchism than in Street confrontation subject is not enamored of the animal
03:13:24 subject is not enamored of the animal right struggle and he only allows animal rights material to be sold in the shop because of pressure exerted by his co-workers privacy and
03:13:39 AJ is this individual's name the name that you adopted um no no I think I just came up with it
03:13:41 with it myself are you asserting that it is simply a coincidence that you adopted the name name Christopher or Chris Jones Andrew Jones but with a silent
03:13:56 Andrew Jones but with a silent Christopher yeah um I had no intention to um try to refer the offense to any other
03:14:04 person and a coincidence that this person also is known colloquially as
03:14:13 Christopher I wasn't known as clly as Christopher I was known as Andy You're known as Andy van are you you sure there was no coincidence between the use of these
03:14:27 names only in so far as it might have been in the back of my mind and it came up popped up as a possible name but there was no intention to link it to this individual no ironic given that he was not enamored of the animal rights no quite right
03:14:44 of the animal rights no quite right quite right can we take that down please can we go to in volume two to tab B little
03:14:46 little 125 526
03:15:01 756 we have page six
03:15:11 please this is the SDS policy guidelines regarding participation in crime is this a document that you can recall seeing or being told
03:15:27 about I'm not entirely sure it sounds a bit more there's a an ho memo that I do remember it's possible that I saw this yeah if you uh saw it when would you have seen it
03:15:41 saw it when would you have seen it initially when I started the deployment and would it have been the sort of document that was available in the office if if needed I would have thought so yeah
03:15:49 so yeah yeah uh if we look at the the document starting with um the middle the second paragraph down no SDS officer will Council in sight or proc procure the
03:16:06 Council in sight or proc procure the commission of a crime yeah where an SDS officer obtains information about the intention of others to commit a crime in which they intend that he she shall play A Part his her participation will only be allowed to continue where he or she
03:16:24 be allowed to continue where he or she does not actively engage in planning and committing the crime he she is intended to play only a minor role yeah translating this to the good Easter hunt yes you are driving hunt
03:16:39 yes you are driving hunt sabots to a hunt which is deliberately designed to test the new legislation and where it is clearly envisaged that there may be arrests for breach of that legislation yes including
03:16:55 breach of that legislation yes including your own arrest that was unfortunate but yes that's right there was a risk of it C his her participation is essential to enable police to prevent a crime or
03:17:14 to enable police to prevent a crime or to frustrate the principal criminals by provid such as a serious breach of the Queen's peace or to frustrate the principal criminal criminals by providing information which leads to their arrest albeit for lesser offenses before injury is done to any person or
03:17:27 before injury is done to any person or any or serious damage to property your participation in the good Easter hunt was not going to lead to those results was
03:17:43 it not in those terms no I don't think it did
03:17:57 why were you attending that hunt I think it was because it was such a a new departure um that they wanted coverage and I was asked to cover it which I which I did as you mentioned before because the law was going to be tested exactly yeah yeah D
03:18:14 going to be tested exactly yeah yeah D at no time will an SDS officer act as an Aon provocator at no time will an SDS officer commit himself herself to a CA to mislead a
03:18:30 himself herself to a CA to mislead a court this could include appearing on behalf of a defendant as a witness yes your
03:18:40 yes your managers in discussion with you on your evidence have committed you to a course to mislead a court that you that you were was not to appear yeah Christopher Andrew Jones yes that's right
03:18:51 that's right yeah did anybody any suggestion that anybody had these policy guidelines in mind when the plan was hatched no the no and a clear breach sounds like it
03:19:14 yeah could we have from volume one please divider A2 735
03:19:20 735 [Music]
03:19:42 554 and thank you this is a document we looked at yesterday it's notes of an interview with her operation Hearn officers yes
03:19:55 with her operation Hearn officers yes can I direct you to the bottom of the page where it says arrested at least
03:20:16 page where it says arrested at least three times trespass Essex Gilford 1992 false details given 1994 false false details um on bail John Hoin cover office yeah the 1994 reference there is presumably to
03:20:32 1994 reference there is presumably to good Easter H can you help us with the 1992 incident I think this is when um hunts were deploying hunt security um it was practice of the police to catch you and put you in the black Mari and then release you at the
03:20:49 black Mari and then release you at the end of the day so it was like a police detention can you recall where that happened I think I've said there Guilford
03:20:50 Guilford um and you gave your are yeah yeah did that lead to any interaction
03:21:01 yeah did that lead to any interaction with the court so you simply released at the released it's just a a holding technique that was quite common at at the time for police to control things it says the line above arrested at least
03:21:16 says the line above arrested at least three times if we've got 92 94 what was the other occasion I think these are other similar occasions during that time of the um the hunt security period which
03:21:30 of the um the hunt security period which was you quite intense did that result in any contact with the court no it's all about this this police detention technique that they had can we take that down now please can we go in volume Five tab 313 to 7433
03:21:58 thank you this is a report um about Jeff Shephard dated the 8th of November 1994 can we look first of all at paragraph the first substantive paragraph of
03:22:14 text Shepherd an anarchist animal rights extremist and social recluse whilst in no way prepared to relax his obsessive hatred with the Viv section industry recently has channeled his potent aggression into participation in
03:22:26 aggression into participation in demonstrations with a potential for serious disorder ample opportunity has been provided by the demonstrations connected with implementation of the criminal justice bill of which three
03:22:41 criminal justice bill of which three examples serve to demonstrate Shepherd's current anti-establishment activities and if we could go to the first of those
03:22:58 please on Sunday the 9th of October Shepherd is said to have been personally involved in serious disorder during the latter stages of the anti-criminal Justice Bill Riot when criminal damage was done to shop windows in and around Oxford
03:23:09 Oxford Street is this report based on your intelligence I doubt it very much I don't remember this at all and whether or not it is it would
03:23:20 all and whether or not it is it would appear that this information because of the use of the words is said is hearsay I would say that's right yes if we go to paragraph sub paragraph
03:23:40 two 19th of October subject attended the demonstration in and around Parliament with the sole intention of participating in any disorder which might ensue is this intelligence about Mr
03:23:54 ensue is this intelligence about Mr Shephard which has come from you no if we go to paragraph
03:23:59 three I'll let you read it same
03:24:11 question again probably not me could we take that down please
03:24:26 is it right that your deployment ended in February 1995 yes that's right and there was a leaving event a small party that's right yeah uh you were there Mr grabit was there is that right I think so yeah who else
03:24:43 that right I think so yeah who else respecting privacy was there Cy just one second
03:25:09 no Robin Lane was certainly there and I think an ex-girlfriend of his was there I
03:25:11 I remember uh
03:25:19 I'm struggling to remember I'm sorry not very many people Mr Lane has given evidence that he wasn't there okay he was so on your recollection for people including you more than that but um I'm
03:25:33 including you more than that but um I'm struggling to remember who it who it was that was there how many people on your recollection we booked a table in in a vegan restaurant um however many gets around the table eight perhaps wasn't very
03:25:44 very many the evidence we've had from civilian Witnesses is to the effect that it was yourself and Mr grait is that
03:25:56 it was yourself and Mr grait is that right just the two of us no there are a few
03:26:00 few more the evidence that we anticipate receiving in January is that when hn1 left the field there was a very large party right are you able to help
03:26:11 large party right are you able to help us with whether that is true or not no
03:26:19 what would you say to the suggestion that your leaving party was very thinly attended because you had a reputation as a lecturers man and a sex pest um entirely wrong no i' I'd spent the
03:26:36 entirely wrong no i' I'd spent the entire year beforehand developing my my exit strategy and reducing my contact substantially so would that be a convenient moment to break for lunch
03:26:48 we'll um resume
03:26:58 it that's very kind thank you