Afternoon session examining Andrew Coles, author of the controversial SDS tradecraft manual. Intensive questioning about manual's guidance on sexual relationships, use of deceased children's identities, and involvement in criminal activity. Coles admits manual gave 'completely improper advice' that was 'unlawful', 'amoral', 'misogynistic' and likely contributed to harm done to women.
00:24:57 e e
00:25:55 this afternoon's proceedings are being live streamed those with electronic Dev may use them to report what is going on in the hearing room but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're reporting such devices may
00:26:10 that they're reporting such devices may not be used for recording or photography Mr bar thank you sir Mr Kohls I'm going
00:26:22 Mr bar thank you sir Mr Kohls I'm going to turn now to the tradecraft manual yes uh you told us yesterday that when you join the SDS you do not recall any written guidance correct did that change at all at any point in time before you put pen to paper in
00:26:38 put pen to paper in 1995 I wasn't aware of anything um until I put pen to paper as you
00:26:49 I put pen to paper as you say a question now about the Genesis of that document if we go in file 4 tab B Roman numeral 54
00:26:59 37372 going to take you to an ex extract from Bob Lambert's statement as a
00:27:13 manager um about five lines uh down after introducing the topic of the tradecraft
00:27:24 introducing the topic of the tradecraft manual he has written my recollection is that Andy Cole suggested to me that him providing a note of his experiences for the benefit of future field offices might be a good idea and that I
00:27:42 might be a good idea and that I agreed is that how the tradecraft manual came about I think that's right
00:27:50 yeah and is it right that it was intended to be uh guidance to Future field office
00:28:05 guidance to Future field office offers provided by former field officers yeah so the the best and the worst of one's experiences yeah uh when you drafted it did detective inspector Lambert read
00:28:26 it um I guess so did he approve it um I handed it in at the end of the process and that was the end of it I'm afraid so you wouldn't be able to help us as to whether he amended it uh it was supposed to be a live document so I think people added stuff afterwards um are you able
00:28:41 added stuff afterwards um are you able to assist us whether DCI Edmonson read what you
00:28:46 what you wrote I don't know would you expect both of those men to have done so I would have hoped so yes do you know whether knowledge of the tradecraft manual and its contents went any further up the chain of command I don't know that
00:28:58 chain of command I don't know that can we go to the manual itself so if we
00:29:09 can we go to the manual itself so if we take down the present document and go in volume three tab B Roman numeral 35 document number 527
00:29:30 597 um this is a cover page yeah Special demonstrations Squad tradecraft manual does what it says on the tin indeed over the page uh table of contents I understand from your witness statement that you drafted this is that
00:29:43 statement that you drafted this is that right I think the yes the table I I did in and some of the content but not everything I'm not entirely sure that all of it was and things were added on so it may not be that all of it yeah
00:29:56 so it may not be that all of it yeah there are certainly some documents later on particularly from the reaper age which plainly postdate yeah at your time if we could go now to uh page eight in the electronic file
00:30:16 please uh this is a section entitled preparation did you draft
00:30:28 this it looks like my writing yeah looks like my style so if we start with par paragraph
00:30:29 paragraph 3.1.1 please under the subheading
00:30:43 3.1.1 please under the subheading name yes by tradition the aspiring SDS officer's first major task on joining the back office was to spend hours and hours in St Katherine's house leafing through death registers in
00:30:57 leafing through death registers in search of a name he could call his own on fin finding a suitable ex person usually a deceased child or young person with a fairly Anonymous name the
00:31:10 with a fairly Anonymous name the circumstances of his or her untimely demise was uninest was investigated the phrase a suitable expers yours I would think so yes if death was natural or otherwise
00:31:23 death was natural or otherwise unspectacular and therefore unlikely to be findable in news newspapers or other public records the SDS officer would apply for a copy of the Dead person's
00:31:37 apply for a copy of the Dead person's birth certificate further research would follow to establish the respiratory status of the Dead person's family your words I'm bit concerned about the typo
00:31:48 words I'm bit concerned about the typo there that wouldn't be me but um I guess so yeah if any and if they were still breathing where they were living if all was suitably obscure and there was
00:32:00 was suitably obscure and there was little chance of the off SDS officer or more importantly one of the wearies a well-used phrase within the S commonly used yeah running into the dead person's parents siblings Etc the SDS
00:32:11 person's parents siblings Etc the SDS officer would assume squatters rights over the unfortunate identity for the next four years yes your words I think so
00:32:21 so yeah and putting the tone to one side that's an accurate summary of the traditional approach to building a
00:32:49 traditional approach to building a legend using a deceased child's identity yes that's right could we uh now go to uh file four tab B Roman Numeral 51 37317
00:33:11 uh this is an extract from Peter francis's witness statement for TR 3 if we could expand the text please I was aware the binder was updated by Andy Cole sometime while I was deployed in the field it appears he
00:33:23 was deployed in the field it appears he has a different recollection to you that there was already a binder that you were up dating that's not your recollection is
00:33:32 is it I'm not no I'm not entirely sure there were other reports it wasn't forly called a tradecraft manual if you like but
00:33:41 but um he might be right in that actually there were other the documents yeah I I did not bother to go back and read his updates at that time so had never seen the document MPS 527 597 the koh's
00:33:55 the document MPS 527 597 the koh's update that's a document we were just looking at I never read anything in the binder I saw that was as jarring as what I read in the Cole's update there are a
00:34:07 I read in the Cole's update there are a whole series of nasty comments that were never contained within the version we
00:34:18 never contained within the version we had at the time I was in the back office for example references to carrying out research to establish the respiratory status of relatives of the deceased child whose identity one was stealing and an assertion that SDS officers assumed squat
00:34:36 assumed squat rights over a deceased person's identity I believe some of the language used in particular the condescending comments are more reflective of Andy koh's himself than the SDS they are his opinions they are quite disparaging
00:34:49 opinions they are quite disparaging things to say and I do not think those were the feelings of the SDS as a unit at the time
00:35:06 first of all in relation to tone what is your reaction to what you wrote in the paragraph We were just looking at now that you know that it has been seen by the relatives of deceased
00:35:19 been seen by the relatives of deceased children whose identities were used by SDS officers it seems CR and
00:35:34 tasteless do you agree with Peter Francis uh that uh those that words were reflective of you and not the SDS of me at that time I think
00:35:50 yes and you now no I think um this was written when I was going through some fairly challenging times on return to normality and I I had certain outbursts of anger and other sort sorts of behavior so I
00:36:02 and other sort sorts of behavior so I think this is me just not really quite being myself and saying some fairly unnecessarily unpleasant things could we take that down please and go back to 527
00:36:11 527 597 at page
00:36:26 8 thank you if we could look now at paragraph
00:36:36 3.1.2 all well and good but we are all familiar with the story of an SDS officer being confronted with his own death certificate being careful about anonymity uh what was the
00:36:55 story there was a story of an individual who um
00:37:01 I think was involved in Irish matters was confronted with the death certificate of the um the child whose identity he took on the inquiry has heard evidence that an officer who in the 19 mid 1970s
00:37:18 an officer who in the 19 mid 1970s infiltrated the troops out movement Rick Clark was confronted uh with the death
00:37:29 Clark was confronted uh with the death certificate of the child whose identity he had used is that the instance that you are ref I guess that is
00:37:37 yes and in what way was that example used with new SDS officers when creating their cover identities um that was generally known in my time
00:37:52 um that was generally known in my time of being out there and the other members in the team I'm yeah I'm assuming that that story was
00:37:57 was um sanatary lesson that was told to others but I I couldn't tell you for sure post my ter term whether that was the case were you given any guidance as to how to avoid the same
00:38:14 problem it's how to how to deal with it if the problem came up so not how to represent yourself and how how to deal with it yeah because it might be said that one way of avoiding
00:38:26 might be said that one way of avoiding being confronted with a deceased child's death certificate is not to use a deceased Char's identity in the first place exactly yes was anything said about
00:38:33 about that
00:38:40 no if we go to paragraph 3.13
00:38:50 please I'll let you uh familiarize yourself with it but it's the last four lines that I'm particularly interested
00:39:01 in I don't believe this is me writing this is seems to be an addition post my my
00:39:01 my deployment but it's 1994 so it's before you made your contribution are you sure I'm not certain no no but I
00:39:18 don't is the I don't I'm not entirely sure the last few lines it was considered that a computer system able to match the records of deaths and births quickly and easily and which was accessible legitimately or otherwise to
00:39:31 accessible legitimately or otherwise to wearies or hostile inquirers would make it necessary to change operating procedures I I didn't put that in there that's that's I would have remembered that no this is later is what had happened between your starting and your writing your
00:39:48 starting and your writing your contribution to the tradecraft manual that the
00:39:49 that the opcs had computerized its records making it vastly easier for any future death to do a computer
00:40:02 for any future death to do a computer check which in the past it might have taken days and days if ever because it was a paper record yes you're right
00:40:14 was a paper record yes you're right yeah were you aware by the time that you wrote the tradecraft manual that the traditional process had come to an end no I wasn't are you sure about that because there's clear reference to it in this document that's why I'm saying this
00:40:33 this document that's why I'm saying this is post it was a live document it was an electronic document this has been added after my time I believe 3.1.5 on the next page in the past an identity with the birth certificate was deemed necessary
00:40:44 birth certificate was deemed necessary in order to obtain the documentation and paraphernalia associated with everyday life the birth certificate was used as an identity document which it is not on which to base the acquisition of accommodation driving license passport
00:41:00 accommodation driving license passport bank account Etc a birth certificate is not necessary for provision of any documentation by the office it is therefore advisable to discontinue the practice of obtaining a birth certificate at all it follows that an imaginary identity must now be made up
00:41:13 imaginary identity must now be made up by the field officer this paper seeks to offer tips and guidance in the selection of a new
00:41:19 of a new identity when you were an undercover police officer there were other officers coming through the back office joining the unit weren't there there were yes
00:41:31 the unit weren't there there were yes were you aware that there came a time when they abandoned the traditional method and were building their Legends in a different way no this is not my my entry it's a post my my writing I wasn't asking you specifically about whether
00:41:44 asking you specifically about whether you drafted this I was asking asking you if from your knowledge of discussions with new joiners you knew that there had been a change to the way Legends were being developed no no not at all no
00:42:04 is it right that the benefit of using an imaginary ID is is that you on the one hand can't be confronted with your death certificate but that has to be balanced against the disbenefit that you won't
00:42:18 against the disbenefit that you won't have a birth certificate and you might have to explain that
00:42:25 yeah were you involved in any of the discussions about that no I wasn't
00:42:37 no you as you said yesterday did not use the full deceased Charles identity that's right you told us you were disobeying DCI gray in doing so yes you are not the first officer to have given evidence to this inquiry that you didn't follow the traditional practice to the
00:42:50 follow the traditional practice to the letter yeah are you aware of whether or not there was in fact any discretion as to whether to do so before
00:42:59 before 1994
00:43:07 1994 no can we now go to page 27 in the tradecraft
00:43:18 manual alcohol and drugs in the past alcohol was something sometimes a regular lubricant of SDS operations nowaday is nowadays it is simply inappropriate to drink can drive you will be prosecuted and face a driving
00:43:34 will be prosecuted and face a driving ban and you may well face disciplinary proceedings some groups we infiltrate drink heavily and you will have to participate to a greater or lesser extent when you drink don't drive stay in your Duff and wait until morning drugs are in widespread use
00:43:47 morning drugs are in widespread use throughout the alternative scene you should come to a decision as to whether you use or abstain and we've already
00:44:03 you use or abstain and we've already been to your own evidence about what you did yes um and then it goes on to talk uh about aspects of uh dealing with Controlled Substances concluding again if you have to embi soft stuff or become stoned through secondary smoking don't
00:44:19 stoned through secondary smoking don't attempt to drive home go to the Duff and sleep it off yes your advice yes well
00:44:32 sleep it off yes your advice yes well it's from other policy but yes that's um be writing that yeah and then you go on a common fear is that using alcohol or drugs will loosen your tongue and you will give the game away I can only say that I have been in many states of intoxication during my tour and have never had a problem with basic security
00:44:44 never had a problem with basic security if you don't feel confident stay on the side of caution and avoid intoxicants as much as possible the sober driver and
00:44:56 much as possible the sober driver and the straightedge activist who never get stoned are far more common in alternative Society than one's First Impressions indicate yes it your words yes I think so yeah and true
00:45:12 yes I think so yeah and true yeah they suggest that one could conduct an SDS
00:45:18 an SDS deployment without abusing Controlled Substances indeed um why then is the advice make up your own mind about whether or not you're going to take
00:45:34 them I think it's a simple matter of the group you're in and and how prevalent it is and whether the social use of cannabis was an alternative to alcohol this was sort of the common problem was how do you exist in an environment where regular use of cannabis by your group
00:45:49 regular use of cannabis by your group was common but your own advice is you could just play The Straight Edge activist it is possible to do that yeah that's right depends on on your um group for example in my case there were two individuals that were users that they
00:46:03 individuals that were users that they wanted information on it would have been strange to have gone there and not have been
00:46:06 been participating since we're talking about committing a criminal offense yes shouldn't the guidance have been either don't do it or don't do it unless you've got to to protect your
00:46:19 got to to protect your safety that would be better advice but it would sometimes mean you would have to use the the um alcohol or drugs to build up that relationship so in an
00:46:32 build up that relationship so in an Ideal World you wouldn't have to but in reality sometimes it was necessary was there a feeling that because the SDS was an exceptional rule exceptional unit that the rules could be
00:46:53 bent I think the the view at the time was that it was a necessary evil that was part of and parcel of your your job 5.6 sexual Liaisons the thorny issue of
00:47:04 5.6 sexual Liaisons the thorny issue of romantic entanglements during a tour is the cause of much soul searching and concern in the past emotional ties to the opposition have happened and caused all sorts of difficulties including divorce deception and disciplinary
00:47:16 divorce deception and disciplinary charges while it is not my place to moralize one should try to avoid the opposite sex for as long as possible your words so yeah uh The
00:47:29 your words so yeah uh The Heading sexual Liaisons this section does what it says on the tin it's advice about sexual yeah I think so yeah
00:47:45 about sexual yeah I think so yeah yeah uh cause of much soul searching and concern by whom and
00:47:55 when it's something that is a challenge that you have to deal with it's um a common difficulty and the soul searching what did you mean
00:48:06 and the soul searching what did you mean by that how how One deals with it why do you have to search the soul for that to work out a way of um dealing with people while you're out there
00:48:17 people while you're out there particularly those that are interested in developing a relationship with you because there's a moral Dimension to this yes although it's not my place to moralize about what's right and wrong I though it's very clear what is right and wrong
00:48:28 wrong wrong why is it not the place of a guidance document to moralize and to
00:48:41 guidance document to moralize and to make clear what is right and wrong it is the place of a document it's not my place as an individual writing try try to avoid the opposite sex for as long as possible yes that
00:48:56 sex for as long as possible yes that falls quite some distance short of don't doesn't it but one can't because the groups have female activists within them so you you sometimes get entangled in this sort of thing my own
00:49:14 experience the free love attitudes of the
00:49:20 the 60s and 70s have largely disappeared in the minds of the extremists following herpes hepatitis and
00:49:31 hepatitis and AIDS was that based on your own experience no this comes from uh a book written by an FBI undercover in about
00:49:42 in about 1965 um I can't remember what it was called now Deep Cover I
00:49:50 think if it was written in
00:50:01 was written in 1965 long long time ago yeah that might have been said to have been in the era where people commonly talk about free love free love exactly yeah yeah but you're talking here about the 90s with the assertion that free love has largely
00:50:20 disappeared was that your experience I'm here I'm referring to that book and the fact that it's completely out of date based on the fact that it's completely out of date know 30 years on it's completely
00:50:33 date know 30 years on it's completely different Society we live in based on your experience of four years in the field currently yes
00:50:41 exactly and people were careful about sexually transmitted diseases by this stage because AIDS was a very serious problem that's
00:50:56 right could we take the document down now please and digress for a moment to file one
00:51:04 file one paragraph tab sorry A4 document number 735
00:51:16 546 these are notes of the risk assessor for the purposes of the anonymity process in this inquiry if we could go to page three please
00:51:32 we uh looked at this document yesterday I'm interested in the third paragraph
00:51:49 down high instances of promiscuous relationships STD very frequent and common prevalent I think that is prevalent and common sorry she something a person she wanted a personal relationship but wanted to have protective
00:52:03 have protective sex as a vegan would not use a condom against principles yes I think I've dealt with that before yeah you did indeed you are writing in the tradecraft manual the free love attitudes of the
00:52:20 manual the free love attitudes of the 60s and 70s have largely disappeared in the minds of the extremists following herpes
00:52:26 herpes hepatitis and AIDS yes you are telling a risk
00:52:27 risk assessor uh in 2017 that there was a high instance of promiscuous relationships and STDs were prevalent and common yes do you see the
00:52:53 discrepancy not really no so there are free love and is a different thing I think that I'm referring to here is promiscuity is very different from the free love of the 60s which is sort of group sex that sort of thing and we went through the
00:53:10 through the uh references to resisting advances yes um in the
00:53:13 um in the past is the reality that what you wrote in the tradecraft manual is an accurate reflection of sexual attitudes in the early '90s whereas
00:53:26 attitudes in the early '90s whereas what you said to the risk assessor is
00:53:45 not I think the the trof manual report was was closer than this was this was some years later so probably that's more trustworthy than this one here it's probably to do with some of my um my views um as an older
00:54:03 person or a desire to paint a picture less likely to incriminate you in a relationship with Jessica no
00:54:17 you in a relationship with Jessica no no could we take that down please and go back to the tradecraft manual 527
00:54:19 527 597 page 27
00:54:41 5.6.3 at the bottom of the page while you may try to avoid any sexual encounter there may come a time when your lack of Interest may become suspicious in these circumstances you
00:54:56 suspicious in these circumstances you can either try to introduce an approp rate male or female from your own relations or friends to meet the wearies on a few occasions or ask the office if they can find an X
00:55:15 SDS if we can go operative to fill it such a role both options are fraught with difficulty and you must make your own mind up about how to proceed if you have no other option but to become
00:55:26 have no other option but to become involved with a weary you should try try to have fleeting disastrous relationships with individuals who are not important to your source of information one cannot be involved with a weary in a relationship for any period of time without risking serious
00:55:40 of time without risking serious consequences yes first of all sticking with the early part of that uh paragraph Was introducing a relation or a
00:55:55 Was introducing a relation or a friend uh an option that you ever considered I'm that was never part of the um opportunities that were provided to deal with this sort of
00:56:08 problem this is your guidance isn't it well I'm
00:56:15 well I'm just the offic said they would find um an EXs operative to fulfill that role but that's that's the bit that I I remember the first bit I don't remember writing that's
00:56:27 unusual it would be an extraordin thing to do wouldn't it yes exactly yeah very
00:56:43 to do wouldn't it yes exactly yeah very odd to put in an untrained civilian yes to play a role in an undercover police deployment extraordinary yeah yeah utterly Reckless advice yes are you sure that you did not write that
00:56:52 that sentence I I can't be sure it is just so beyond what what was um available at the time it just surprises me to see that well there's no question of
00:57:06 well there's no question of availability or all you need is a friend or
00:57:11 or relative yeah exactly it's this is not this is not process this is not policy but it's written guidance here it's in the guidance document yes but I'm again it was a live document I don't remember writing this
00:57:29 asking the office if they can find an X SDS operative to fill such a role you did mention in your evidence yesterday
00:57:41 did mention in your evidence yesterday yeah did you during your deployment at any
00:57:43 any time ask
00:57:49 time ask management to find an xsds operative to fill
00:57:59 fill no was that because in fact you you were not being bombarded with sexual attention by activists by bombarded that seems as if it's extremely regular it was occasional but um I didn't require that assistance now not subject to
00:58:13 now not subject to sufficient interest or Temptation sexually to need any cover I didn't I didn't require it during my my deployment no that's right
00:58:32 both options are fraught with difficulty and you must make your own mind up about how to
00:58:34 how to proceed did you write
00:58:45 that I don't remember um you must make your up your own mind about how to proceed I think that sounds like me yeah it's possible I wrote that but it it it's such an odd thing from the the earlier statement
00:59:02 if you have no other option but to become involved with a weary uh that uh contemplates that the
00:59:14 weary uh that uh contemplates that the advice which will follow is a matter of Last Resort yes
00:59:18 yes and is this a matter of Last Resort in order to maintain cover for security and safety purposes that's right and to
00:59:32 safety purposes that's right and to remain in the field in order to obtain the necessary
00:59:40 intelligence it would have to be absolutely necessary I mean for your own personal Safety and Security to remain in the field and to continue with the operation well you then have to go to the management team and discuss it this was the
01:00:06 and discuss it this was the the S so10 policy actually to think of it but this document does not address the question of necessary for what purpose does it no it doesn't
01:00:13 no it leaves the reader without any guidance on that your own experience was that you had been left to deal with this matter yourself hadn't you in the field
01:00:30 matter yourself hadn't you in the field yeah the tenor of this par paragraph is very much one of individual discretion isn't
01:00:31 isn't it yes I think so and so the reader might well come
01:00:44 so and so the reader might well come away with the understanding that NE it's necessary to maintain cover or to continue the operation
01:00:57 yes you should try to have fleeting disastrous relationships with
01:01:06 individuals that Imports a positive Choice doesn't it to try to have a sexual relationship of a particular kind not a sexual relationship but a disastrous relationship one that
01:01:24 disastrous relationship one that fails a disastrous sexual relationship no not not not sexual a disastrous relationship very brief very brief sexual relationship no we'll have to go back to paragraph
01:01:49 5.6 if we could just look at the heading please and have that blown up I can see that yeah block capitals yeah
01:01:57 emboldened you've answered my question already that this paragraph does what it says on the tin yes can we go back to the text uh please at the top of page
01:02:11 28 this is about sexual relationships isn't it Mr
01:02:23 Kohl's it doesn't say that it says relationships Mr Kohl's this does not make sense in any other way does
01:02:33 it if you have no other option but to become involved with a weary yes if after you've ruled out using an xsds officer or a friend or a relation to
01:02:54 officer or a friend or a relation to give you cover yes you are going to try to have a fleeting disastrous sexual relationship it's not what it says that's not the intention of that text it would have said that otherwise because the whole point of an SDS deployment in
01:03:09 the whole point of an SDS deployment in a nonsexual sense is to get close to the people from whom you wish to extract intelligence yes that's right it is to form close nonsexual relationship friendships yes this paragraph is
01:03:21 friendships yes this paragraph is dealing with sexual relationships talking about romantic ingls that's right yeah it's headed sexually Asal your advice to Future field
01:03:41 Asal your advice to Future field officers is that if they have no other option they should try to have a fleeting disastrous sexual relationship no a fleeting disastrous relationship it's very specific with
01:03:53 relationship it's very specific with individuals who are not important to your sources of information yes which suggests that there is room for the officer to make a
01:04:06 for the officer to make a choice the importance is not to be involved with someone with whom you are um working with or or involved in
01:04:17 um working with or or involved in infiltration with so they have to be a a player if you like whereas if this proposal that I I wrote to have a dis disastrous relationship should be with someone who's not important to that so you choose a person who fits that
01:04:32 you choose a person who fits that definition someone who's around the area of um the um group you're infiltrating that's right this this is an extremist if it's necessary if it's necessary choose a woman as long as she's not
01:04:46 choose a woman as long as she's not important to your sources of information for a disastrous relationship that's right that's fleeting that's correct we'll have to agree to differ as to whether very good it's a disastrous sexual
01:05:06 do you accept that in the absence of the words nonsexual relationship nonsexual before the word relationships that the future field
01:05:21 relationships that the future field officer reading this might be led to believe by the subheading emboldened block capitals sexual leasin that that is what this paragraph is talking
01:05:41 about I think if you take the um the whole thing in the round I think it becomes
01:05:48 clearer are you suggesting that it's not possible for a future SDS UCO to read this paragraph and think I am being guided
01:06:08 and think I am being guided towards having a fleeting and disastrous sexual relationship with an individual who is not important to my sources of information if I have no other option again not to sexual relationship that's not that's not what I'm saying it's not quite answering my question my
01:06:21 it's not quite answering my question my question is about how it might have been read by Future it's possible that it's written clumsily and would need revision your question right is it not in fact perfectly clear what this is really about it's not what what was
01:06:33 what was meant standing back now and looking at the paragraph as a whole yes there is no consideration here
01:06:44 consideration here whatsoever about the legality of choosing to have a fleeting and disastrous relationship
01:06:55 and disastrous relationship with a woman who is not close to one sources of information is there that's right there is no
01:07:11 right there is no consideration of the professional conduct
01:07:18 conduct aspect from the point of view of the reputation of your own police force right of having sex with a member of the public
01:07:30 public in a fleeting and disastrous way in order to protect the SDS operation again that's not the intention but what you say is correct that that would be um an inappropriate thing to
01:07:47 would be um an inappropriate thing to say and although you have said it was not your position to moralize the reality is there's no consideration in this drafting of the morality
01:07:59 this drafting of the morality of an undercover police officer in his undercover identity trying to have a fleeting and disastrous relationship with a member of the public is
01:08:10 the public is there
01:08:11 there no there is no consideration of the impact that such a relationship might have on the deceived
01:08:25 relationship might have on the deceived sexual partners concern is there there's no statement No and they will be disproportionately
01:08:36 No and they will be disproportionately female correct there is no respect shown in this guidance for their bodies is there no no respect for their autonomy no there is no respect shown in this
01:08:51 no there is no respect shown in this guidance for the spouses or partners of the undercover offices concerned is there there's not and they will will be disproportionately female correct but it was thought that they did not need to
01:09:03 they did not need to know they do not need to know about this sort of guidance and what it might lead to correct
01:09:17 might lead to correct yes this is completely improper advice isn't
01:09:18 isn't it yes I would say it is yes unlawful
01:09:31 I'm not entirely sure about whether it's lawful or
01:09:35 lawful or unlawful you don't think it might might be misconduct in public office
01:09:47 be misconduct in public office misfeasance in public office taught of Deceit yeah possible amoral indeed unprofessional yes
01:09:59 misogynistic yes possibly yeah and it will have encouraged those who read it to behave completely inappropriately weren't
01:10:05 weren't it it's a possibility that that might have happened yeah and consequently to have contributed to the harm done to the women deceived by those
01:10:24 officers it's a possibility that this might have been the the case yes do you have any Reflections now on that State of Affairs it's not
01:10:42 acceptable and your personal involvement in drafting this document yes it's not a not an acceptable document can we go now to on page 28 to 5.7.2
01:11:01 this is Under The Heading involvement in crime the above sentiments are laudable but the boundary between right and wrong
01:11:14 but the boundary between right and wrong in the SDS arena is never as clearcut as the provisions of con memo 4 would have us believe if at any time your organization invites you to break the law you must be prepared to take whatever advice comes from your supervisors and your
01:11:26 supervisors and your colleagues if you take part in criminal acts without the office being made aware of such a
01:11:35 of such a likelihood you risk leaving the squad earlier than you expected yes your drafting I guess so yeah and essentially it comes down
01:11:52 it comes down to don't place too much weight on con memo for the reality is different do what your managers tell you um um no I'm I'm talking here about the comm4 the thing about you shouldn't be involved in the planning and then the main Act of an event
01:12:06 and then the main Act of an event because often it was a joint Enterprise with people once a conspiracy had started so it's quite difficult to define the minor role when you're expected to be involved in the planning and the activity itself that's what
01:12:17 and the activity itself that's what we're talking about there it's quite common with the certainly with the um nonh hierarchical organizations involved in activity does it come back to your
01:12:30 in activity does it come back to your evidence earlier to the effect that one has to demonstrate that one has the bottle yes well that's part of it but that's not I think what I'm dealing with here it's about this um particular element about planning preparation and
01:12:46 element about planning preparation and participation was having the bottle the sort of phrase that was used in the
01:12:54 office um possibly that would be a term used then yeah yes and it's not just restricted to
01:13:05 yes and it's not just restricted to those Preparatory steps is it it's about not misleading courts yes it's about the proportionality of committing crime as an undercover police officer
01:13:17 officer um I think in this one I'm specifically dealing with this thing about being involved in the planning preparation and taking part in crime this is what I'm dealing with here and the reality was because the SDS regarded itself as
01:13:33 was because the SDS regarded itself as Elite and special the rules went out of the
01:13:38 the window and supervisors and colleagues were the source of the actual rules we just needed to go and refer to the supervisors about the situation you were facing to take
01:13:53 were facing to take advice could we go on page 28 to 5.8.2 please
01:14:00 this is about arrest yes one bone of contention is that if arrested one should plead guilty and cop the fine groups such as the hunt sabots and the AL will not accept such an approach to
01:14:12 AL will not accept such an approach to arrest in the current climate and expect a colleague to plead not guilty fight the case strongly and if the case is won the arresting officer force will face a claim for compensation in the Civil
01:14:27 claim for compensation in the Civil Court more and more groups are following this tendency and unless you intend to fail to appear at court management should support the field officer's appraisal of his situation each case must be looked at on its merits so do not expect that you will be able to
01:14:42 not expect that you will be able to follow a course of action which will be accepted by your wearies yes is that born of some of the experiences we've been through with your own arrest
01:14:53 been through with your own arrest exactly and as we've been through with your own arrest the management solution
01:15:04 your own arrest the management solution in your case involved misleading a court that's what we found yes and it's a
01:15:18 that's what we found yes and it's a reality that here we see in Guidance the same disregard for the courts uh being essentially set out that's simply setting out my own experiences but you're right the effect is as you say could we go now on page 36 to paragraph
01:15:46 7.3.5 something we've touched upon before the most difficult part of infiltrating the ALF is to decide how far to go if you want to be accepted as an Alf activist you must first get close to a relevant person then accept
01:16:02 to a relevant person then accept invitations to commit acts of criminal damage on the Windows of abusers it is only by building up trust in this manner that you may get an invitation to Al raids at every action
01:16:13 invitation to Al raids at every action there is a real chance of being arrested for a criminal offense you take the risk of shortening your tour quite
01:16:24 of shortening your tour quite dramatically if you are caught if you if you decide that taking part in illegal
01:16:37 you decide that taking part in illegal direct action is not for you you have to work hard to become a regular supporter on the scene even then without getting your hands dirty your chance of correctly identifying an Al activist is very low your words I think so yeah did
01:16:53 very low your words I think so yeah did you break uh Windows of so-called animal abusers um acts of criminal damage I I describe that as the hydrofluoric acid sprayed on the butcher's window and if you are I think the
01:17:04 window and if you are I think the colloquial term is a shallow paddler you're not going to get anywhere very
01:17:17 unlikely can we take that down please going to move from the tradecraft manual to the advice which you personally
01:17:34 which you personally gave to new undercover offices whilst you were in the SDS I'd like to start please with Mark Jenner who joined the SDS right in
01:17:54 1995 could we go in file four please to be Roman numeral f five2 and that's at
01:18:21 37316 this uh is paragraph 26 of Mr Jenner's uh witness statement for our TR three hearing if we go to um the end of the
01:18:35 hearing if we go to um the end of the first sorry the middle of the first page I do not rec do not recollect any updates in my time but I do remember being aware that Andy Kohl's who was in the field when I was in the back office had been asked to assist in writing or
01:18:54 had been asked to assist in writing or rewriting some of it it's right isn't it that your time in the SDS overlapped a little bit sorry your times in the SDS overlapped a little bit yes that's right at the bottom of the page I do remember having
01:19:10 bottom of the page I do remember having a discussion about sexual relationships if we go over the
01:19:24 page the advice given was that relationships were inevitable and that eventually you would end up with no option or risk exposure but at the time I did not think this would happen to me and so I did not dwell on it my
01:19:40 and so I did not dwell on it my recollection is that it was Andy Kohl's who I spoke to about
01:19:53 who I spoke to about this did you speak to Mark Jenner about the question of sexual relationships at all
01:20:01 it's possible it' be one of the things that we would talk about as um field to new new people arriving into the field yes and is the recollection that he has about the content of that advice
01:20:16 about the content of that advice correct I think I think it's yeah pretty much correct
01:20:26 yeah why did you say that I think it goes back to to the the manual itself that relationships become inevitable you you are going to have relationships with people as you're out there in the
01:20:39 out there in the field no option or exposure Happ it happens
01:20:44 happens yeah you are effectively advising him that he's going to have to enter a resexual relationship at some point during his deployment aren't you
01:20:58 that's what that appears to say that's right I'm not entirely sure that would be the advice I'd give but it's more to do with how to avoid relationships going to come back to M to Jenner in a moment but I'm going to digress
01:21:09 digress first back to your own deployment yes the thinking that set out here about the inevitability of a
01:21:23 inevitability of a relationship did that thinking in fact influence your own conduct
01:21:33 Undercover the the fact sorry that a relationship was inevitable that relationships were inevitable that's right yeah did that affect your own conduct undercover I was prepared for those risks when they came
01:21:46 prepared for those risks when they came yes and is the reality that you entered into a sexual relationship with Jessica no
01:21:56 no returning to Mark Jenner do you accept that your advice to Mr Jenner might have influenced his conduct it's a possibility
01:22:07 conduct it's a possibility yes Mark Jenner practiced a sexual deception on the woman we are calling Allison by entering into a five year
01:22:24 Allison by entering into a five year long intimate relationship during in which they
01:22:30 cohabited do you accept some responsibility for that happening I think I could have given better advice you're absolutely right that's that's that's
01:22:43 that's that's that's awful can we take that down and go to tab B Roman numeral
01:22:48 53 36 294
01:23:32 uh it's a ucpi number yes 36
01:23:45 294 if that doesn't work it's a curious document it's got two ucpi numbers printed on it the second is
01:23:50 37315 D1
01:24:02 thank you uh this is an extract from the trch 3 witness statement of Jim boiling who like Mark Jenner joined the SDS in
01:24:19 1995 could we go on page two please to paragraph 37 at the top I remember Andy Cole speaking to me about the relevant part of the
01:24:30 about the relevant part of the tradecraft manual on relationships of which he was the author he has been a deployed undercover but had ceased his
01:24:43 deployed undercover but had ceased his deployment shortly before I began mine he emphasized that it was going to happen and that I would have to decide whether to become involved or risk
01:24:55 involved or risk breaking my cover he then goes on to
01:25:07 breaking my cover he then goes on to deal with advice that he was given by hn1 who he describes as being particularly candid did you advise Jim boiling in the
01:25:23 candid did you advise Jim boiling in the manner that he was recorded in the first five lines of paragraph 37 no I don't remember but um I have no reason to doubt what he's saying towards the bottom of the page
01:25:44 saying towards the bottom of the page there is a sentence which reads it was not considered to be a major issue as it is now is that a fair assessment of the importance that was
01:25:59 assessment of the importance that was attached to sexual relationships in the SDS in
01:26:09 1995 I can't speak as to the Future here now I don't I don't know I'm not asking you to speak to the Future when you were serving in the SDS with sexual relationships not considered to be a
01:26:23 relationships not considered to be a major issue no that's not that's not true that's not the
01:26:35 case I'll give you a moment to cast an eye over what Jim boiling says hn1 said to him
01:27:04 yes and he had had a sexual relationship undercover hadn't he that's what that says yeah I think that's what that says and the advice that he is said to have given Jim
01:27:16 given Jim boiling is in essence the same advice that you have given and as is set out in the
01:27:30 given and as is set out in the tradecraft manual isn't it I think that expands Beyond where I would be comfortable but yes it's a very similar line you're
01:27:40 right had you discussed this issue with hn1 no had you discussed it with other colleagues
01:27:56 I don't think so is your evidence that you wrote the
01:28:07 so is your evidence that you wrote the sexual liaison section of the tradecraft manual in a vacuum without reference to others was post deployment yes was there any reaction to it or discussion of its contents with you
01:28:27 no did you know whilst you were serve at any point while you were
01:28:28 you were serving in the SDS about the sexual relationship between hn1 and LZ Fuller no are you
01:28:41 between hn1 and LZ Fuller no are you sure about that I'm certain did you know that he'd had a sexual relationship at all I didn't know that
01:28:49 that hn1 says that you did know
01:28:58 okay in what way is your evidence that he must be mistaken about
01:29:06 that yes I think so and I'm not aware of that did
01:29:09 that did hn1 speak to you about
01:29:20 Jessica I don't know when you mean so can you explain what you mean by don't know I don't know if he spoke to me about Jessica no did he speak to
01:29:34 Jessica no did he speak to you about your conduct towards women in any way at all whilst you were in the
01:29:51 SS we've heard evidence uh that concern a concern about your behavior was ventilated to to
01:30:05 hn1 my question is did he speak to you about that no are you sure about that I'm absolutely sure yes did you
01:30:17 yes did you know that Trevor Morris had had a sexual relationship with the woman who we are calling
01:30:18 calling B
01:30:26 B no did you know that he'd been involved ined in sexual activity with the woman we are calling Jenny no did you know that John dines was involved in a long-term sexual
01:30:43 dines was involved in a long-term sexual relationship with Helen steel no are you sure about that about sexual relationship yeah I am sure about that did you know that Peter Francis slept with women on undercover
01:31:06 no so far as my chitty is concerned presumably you did know that he'd had a sexual relationship with somebody yes that the the woman and the
01:31:22 somebody yes that the the woman and the child were very self-evident yes did you know that that person was the woman we are calling Lizzy I didn't know the identity of the person
01:31:34 identity of the person no did managers speak about any of these sexual relationships none at all no you sure about that about chitty
01:31:42 yes none of the others no did you ever hear or use the phrase weary wife we wife
01:32:01 I don't think I've come across that expression before
01:32:13 no coming back to hn1 did you see hn1 and Liz Fuller together in the same circles yes in circumstances and displaying body language which indicated an intimate relationship
01:32:34 no could we take the document down now please can we go to Volume 1 tab A1A
01:32:37 A1A 743
01:32:55 479 this is your six Monon post op debrief we which we we looked at very briefly earlier in your evidence I want to explore some of its contents in a little bit more detail with you yes
01:33:08 with you yes please
01:33:17 please um if we start um with paragraph four on page three please
01:33:28 I have to register my sincere praise for hn
01:33:30 hn 86 in his
01:33:37 understanding of the weaknesses in the SDS system which are now properly
01:33:51 SDS system which are now properly addressed can you help please with what the weaknesses in the SDS system were which h86
01:33:58 which h86 properly addressed no I can't I'm afraid why
01:34:12 not I I can't remember that do you recall that somebody from the SDS went to visit the
01:34:27 FBI no did they was there an influence in the SDS at the time that was at least derived from Lessons Learned From the
01:34:35 FBI I wasn't aware of that if you know if you're talking about the management going to see the FBI for advice I wasn't aware of that okay can we look now at the next paragraph down I think the office role is a
01:34:49 down I think the office role is a thankless task for anyone to undertake any minor disagreement with office personalities or decisions are going to be blown out of all proportion by a field operative equally undue
01:35:01 field operative equally undue sensitivity to the feelings of a field operative will enable the less scrupulous field officer to misbehave with impunity the balance is difficult to achieve on the one hand the
01:35:15 to achieve on the one hand the management must ensure the unit operates effectively and that the demands it places on the budget are necessary however the police regulations involving undercover work and acpo guidelines are
01:35:28 undercover work and acpo guidelines are wholly inadequate to the task of running a successful SDS operation in what respect were the police regulations and the EO guidelines
01:35:43 police regulations and the EO guidelines wholly inadequate to the task of running a successful SDS operation I think this is the time when
01:35:54 operation I think this is the time when I was um recovering from my deployment I was quite angry about everything emotionally um disregulated um I'm probably banging on about something that was upsetting me
01:36:12 um rules like not bringing the police force into disrepute I I remember being having a conversation about willingness if necessary to be arrested and go to prison and come out again that was sort
01:36:25 prison and come out again that was sort of thing I was yeah weang on about we're coming that coming to that and the attitude to the courts let's do that next paragraph you may feel there are times when the field officer may not have been wholly open to the office staff about his or her actions while
01:36:38 staff about his or her actions while undercover you would be right you're essentially signaling to your managers that officers hide things from their
01:36:49 that officers hide things from their managers yes that's right yeah I was thinking specifically there about a particular um paranoid behavior that I had and worrying about being um followed away and and being connected to my real home address and I behaved in a very
01:37:04 home address and I behaved in a very strange paranoid way which had I talked about it might have worried them unduly and you didn't talk to management because you didn't want to be taken away
01:37:15 because you didn't want to be taken away from that's right yeah the SDS operation I felt I was controlling it the worth thing to hear when you are out in the field is that you'll be sent back if you are compromised or that your arrest is an immediate problem relating to the
01:37:27 an immediate problem relating to the security of the operation ideally one should be told that one's tenure in the field will stand or fall on your remaining in rooll the fact that one is arrested is immaterial misleading a
01:37:50 arrested is immaterial misleading a court is something done by criminals and government ministers alike we shouldn't be squeamish about the ends justifying the means in our own case the danger is if one is compromised and fails to report the fact and make
01:38:01 fails to report the fact and make preparations to leave the field both are one's personal safety and for The credibility of the unit within mpsb as a whole of course if one is realistic one knows that we have to play the game but
01:38:14 knows that we have to play the game but it is essential for the SDS supervisors to interfere only when absolutely necessary I would have been prepared to face arrest remand in custody and possibly spend some time in prison I
01:38:33 possibly spend some time in prison I doubt anyone in mpsb management could cope with that sort of Freedom being given to an officer engaged in SDS
01:38:40 SDS work can you help us in your own words as to what was driving that paragraph This is me Mr angry disappointed with
01:38:52 disappointed with um the restrictions that are around the role
01:38:56 role the um inability to and obviously you can't do these things but I'm I'm raiding Against the Machine if you like because you thought that there should be more
01:39:07 more leeway to execute the mission I was just talking about the restrictions and the
01:39:15 talking about the restrictions and the fact that it gets in the way of being um truly able to deliver what you want to deliver there are limits that prevent what you can do can I take that as a yes no I was quite clear about what I was
01:39:21 was saying but it's you thought there were restrictions which impeded your ability to do your job well yes in short in short yes
01:39:32 short yes okay
01:39:37 okay and misleading the court something done by criminals and government ministers alike we shouldn't be squeamish about the natural implication of that is you are advocating misleading courts yes I'm talking about the fact
01:39:50 courts yes I'm talking about the fact that there are restrictions on what we can do yes although as we've been through restrictions which weren't observed in practice in my particular case you're right
01:40:01 case you're right yes would you have been prepared to face arrest remand and
01:40:09 incarceration I can remember this um discussion about could could you handle that situation but it was theoretical it was um not something I would truly considered no and this is post deployment when I'm I'm pretty
01:40:21 deployment when I'm I'm pretty disregulated at this stage and in no actual risk of going to prison no of course not no
01:40:41 no these were your answers about you were asked questions which included what the problems were that you'd
01:40:51 you'd encountered and things like that uh we can go to the questions if if necessary but in responding to questions as part of this debrief about what the
01:41:03 as part of this debrief about what the problems in your deployment were there's no mention of sexual advances being a problem or of obsessive females wanting a relationship why is that because I felt
01:41:16 relationship why is that because I felt I managed that adequately myself I guess not an issue not for me no no no mention of investigative journalists who might follow you home no I dealt with
01:41:31 that so if we
01:41:35 look at the uh document at 735 454
01:41:59 page four this is notes of a meeting at your
01:42:12 home relationships I had Lucy the dog yes pushing them back was difficult I managed myself I had piics props to support I looked as ugly as I could if someone was in interested was a
01:42:29 someone was in interested was a nightmare one or two fell foul that is the notes of what you said on the
01:42:41 the notes of what you said on the question of dealing with relationships isn't it yes that's I think right yes pushing them back that's because you were
01:42:42 were portraying picture of women making sexual advances to you weren't you talking about the difficulty of avoiding a relationship in the field yes despite
01:42:55 a relationship in the field yes despite looking as ugly as you could scruffy and horrible
01:42:59 horrible yes you're saying that to operation Hearn on the 2nd of May 20th 2013 right but in your post-operative debrief when you're asked what the problems in your relationship were
01:43:16 problems in your relationship were having to push back sexual advances from women was not there no is that because the reality real it
01:43:27 no is that because the reality real it was that despite making yourself as ugly as you could uh you weren't the subject of sexual advances such as you
01:43:41 subject of sexual advances such as you are having to push back there were one or two of them I think I've discussed this
01:43:53 before the suggestion that you had to share a bed with Jessica in order to hide from investigative journalists is not there is it well that's not it's about staying over at um the East London address that's what we were talking
01:44:17 about isn't the reality if these problems had been real they would have been mentioned in your postoperative debrief
01:44:26 I think unlikely it's it's not a great document to read it's clearly that I'm disturbed by my experiences it's not um particularly um logical piece of work
01:44:48 that we can go back now to the debrief itself 743 479
01:44:59 paragraph
01:45:03 18 page
01:45:12 six I was this is about this is specifically about various problems yes I was not tempted into drug taking since it was not a new experience we looked at that yesterday always drunk less and the government recommended Min recommended
01:45:42 government recommended Min recommended maximum shoplifting is a tradition and you set out and address those three problems in response to a specific question about drugs alcohol and offending yes you weren't asked specifically about temptation to enter into sexual relations with members of
01:45:56 into sexual relations with members of the public in your under cover identity no was that because that was not an issue that really concerned them it it wasn't one of the questions was that because it wasn't an issue which really concerned
01:46:10 issue which really concerned them one would think not if it wasn't mentioned but um I can't speak as to that could we take that document down now please in file two could we go to tab B little one 51
01:46:32 I'll give you a number in just a second it is 731
01:46:50 708 this is a document described as a final draft a report on special branch undercover work the memorandum is signed by you in your capacity as a s SO2 training officer on the 12th of
01:47:05 SO2 training officer on the 12th of February I think it it's meant to read 1996 yes that's right been sent to the
01:47:16 1996 yes that's right been sent to the superintendent of C Squad if we go over the page we
01:47:23 see that you are here writing a draft report about paragraph one an initial response to issues of training in undercover work which have
01:47:36 training in undercover work which have been highlighted by superintendent TN 61 while the purpose of This research document is to consider preparing a training package to assist mpsb DC's New to C Squad in attending meetings of
01:47:53 to C Squad in attending meetings of Target groups and shortterm single issue campaigns the research may be relevant to B Squad officers and indeed other Force Special branches who may wish to receive similar training to deal with specific campaigns on their own areas
01:48:07 specific campaigns on their own areas particularly relating to animal rights campaigns and environmental protests paragraph two the most important Under The Heading the implications for SDS the most important
01:48:18 implications for SDS the most important part of this exercise is to ensure that SDS techniques are not compromised in in any way the SDS fieldcraft manual gives clear guidance on how to develop an alternative identity for
01:48:35 alternative identity for longterm Deep Cover these alternative identities will stand up to close scrutiny by a hostile inquiry it is proposed that the level of protection required for short-term operations by desk officers is of a lower standard
01:48:48 desk officers is of a lower standard only to the extent of enabling post to be sent to the individual officer in his or her assumed name and perhaps the use of a telephone
01:48:59 of a telephone number
01:49:00 number so would it be right to say that the purpose of this document in a training capacity you're drafting a document to
01:49:12 capacity you're drafting a document to help shortterm undercover operations by desk
01:49:17 desk officers um it's trying to codify what was common practice about attending meetings and gathering information as a desk officer rather than as a UC so it's using UC techniques but as a desk
01:49:30 using UC techniques but as a desk officer so it was sort of a an amalgam because what had happened in the past was that there was very little turnover of staff and there was adequate supervision of a new DC by a DS from the
01:49:46 supervision of a new DC by a DS from the desk at all times when um the transition into tenure came in then that level of um experience wasn't available so the idea was to codify that in some way if we look at page the next page page three paragraph four Under The Heading assumed name
01:50:03 please the primary need of an officer employed against a short to medium-term Target is to obtain an assumed name and paperwork to corroborate that identity the officer can either make up a false name or attend St Katherine's house to
01:50:22 name or attend St Katherine's house to find a suitable name and rough date of birth from birth records either Ploy would provide a suitable Alias corroboration of a false name is simple enough the officer can purchase an LTE photo pass club membership card or
01:50:37 photo pass club membership card or similar forms of lowlevel ID all are cheap and easy to obtain and will satisfy the idle curiosity of a fellow activist can I two questions that arise
01:50:49 activist can I two questions that arise from that am I to understand the second half of that paragraph As expl explaining how one can quickly and
01:51:06 explaining how one can quickly and easily think up a false name obtain some lowlevel identity to back it up yeah uh that which will perhaps assist with superficial scrutiny if if you're challenged at a meeting yes you have stuff on you that will prove that you are who you say you are and where you live the second question why in February
01:51:17 question why in February 1996 is a document being drafted which leaves open the option of attending St Katherine's house to find a suitable
01:51:34 Katherine's house to find a suitable name and rough date of birth from birth records the plan was to go rather than going to the individual birth certificates which was to go to the registers that were quarterly and if you're thinking of a particular name to look down and see how many of them say if you're using a very very common
01:51:45 if you're using a very very common surname you could then find how many of that common surname were in the book and you would therefore be able to write something so if someone were to take a cursory
01:51:54 cursory attempt to find out who you are and this did happen then there would be a record that would link against that name but by that time you'd be out of the way it wasn't to be in the way of using a dead person's cover for example it was just to link into the
01:52:07 to link into the Registries suitable name and rough date
01:52:20 Registries suitable name and rough date of birth within that quarter yes so you would be purporting to be someone for whom there was an entry in the register um there be well you wouldn't be able to link that person to what you were saying because you're using your own datea of birth that you've you've made up but you'll be looking at a very common name
01:52:36 you'll be looking at a very common name and the number of people using that name and identify one of those to be your um false name that you'll be using as a desk officer well if the intention was to withstand some scrutiny of somebody checking the register of birth
01:52:52 checking the register of birth presumably you would need a name which match the date of birth for the entry yes but you're dealing here with quarters of the year there's quite a lot of names with the same surname I understand that but you are having to pick one of those so that you have a
01:53:04 pick one of those so that you have a name and a date of birth which not a date of birth no well why have said suitable name and rough date of birth So within that quarter yes that's right so you're finding a name within that
01:53:17 you're finding a name within that quarter and if somebody looks up the quarterly reports it will withstand scrutiny there they are yes borrowing a bit of somebody's idea a bit of someone's identity that's
01:53:32 bit of someone's identity that's right and that was considered perfectly all right in 1996 that was a proposal about how one might possibly provide that sort of cover this this is the draft it never actually happened but that's the draft what never actually happened this course of course yeah you
01:53:44 happened this course of course yeah you said it was codifying codifying what was actually happening it was trying to replace what was happening when you had um an experienced DS with a new DC who'll be able to Mentor them through
01:53:55 who'll be able to Mentor them through that process and show them how to deal with it when that was missing they didn't have that sort of support what I was asked to provide was something that would give someone that sort of advice
01:54:06 would give someone that sort of advice and resilience that wasn't a qualified supervisor who could do it well shortterm undercover operations conducted by desk officers conducted by officers who'd been advised that they
01:54:18 officers who'd been advised that they could use this technique no this never came into fruition had it already been happening well I think as I was excuse
01:54:30 happening well I think as I was excuse me as I was explaining it was you would go along the DS would deploy you and there wasn't this sort of level of protection so you just go on and and busk it as a desk officer going to a public
01:54:42 meeting thank you sir would that be a convenient moment to take the afternoon break
01:54:44 break certainly we'll resume in quar of an
01:54:51 hour
02:41:48 e e