Undercover officer HN1 (cover name Matt Rayner) testifies about his deceitful sexual relationship with activist Liz Fuller, whom he describes as 'clever and interested in revenge'. He admits not disclosing the relationship to Operation Hearn risk assessors, answering 'no comment' when interviewed under caution. Despite the Commissioner accepting such relationships were wrong, HN1 repeatedly characterizes his conduct as 'a gray area', comparing it to 'an affair' and claiming it 'wasn't planned'. He accepts the relationship deprived Fuller of her agency to choose whom she entered a relationship with, but maintains his conduct was different from officers like Bob Lambert.
00:27:57 e for
00:28:38 guys
00:29:11 good morning everybody um part of today's proceedings are going to be live streamed uh part uh will not be uh and will be the subject of a reporting restriction order uh those who have been in the hearing room uh who I hope can hear me now uh I acknowledge have complied to
00:29:29 now uh I acknowledge have complied to the best of their ability and willingly with restriction orders that have been made up to now
00:29:33 now unfortunately uh
00:29:44 unfortunately uh one at least of those who have uh received uh evidence on the uh
00:29:46 the uh webinar
00:29:52 webinar link uh have not uh complied with proper requests by the inquiry staff to
00:30:06 requests by the inquiry staff to remove uh details put up uh by them uh promptly I regret to say that if this continues I will have to consider whether or not uh our proceedings should be uh broadcast to those
00:30:28 be uh broadcast to those individuals uh by the webinar link uh I do not want to have to take that step but if I do uh I will have to to uphold orders made by the
00:30:39 inquiry where restriction uh orders apply it is imperative that uh they are
00:30:54 apply it is imperative that uh they are complied with uh and um uh as always uh anybody in the hearing room or who is hearing the evidence by the link should should ask a member of the inquiry staff if they are in
00:31:15 doubt it is likely that the evidence of the witness hn1 which we are going to hear today tomorrow and on Friday uh that a small part of that evidence will have to be heard in
00:31:28 evidence will have to be heard in private uh the reason uh for that uh is that
00:31:31 that uh a request has been made by a nonstate core participant not by the police or at
00:31:44 core participant not by the police or at the instigation of the inquiry and uh if uh that
00:31:45 uh that request uh remains in place uh I will have in due course to determine uh whether or not the proceedings which will be determined
00:31:56 proceedings which will be determined which will be heard in private should remain private that is a matter of the
00:32:06 future can the witness now be sworn please good morning sir I hope you can hear me if I could ask you to stand and I believe you're affirming today yes
00:32:24 today yes indeed please repeat the the words after me I do su solemnly sincerely and truly I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the
00:32:39 that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank you please take your
00:32:44 seat M go um thank you sir um hn1 um for the purposes of the transcript my name is Emma garor and I am the uh Barrister who will be asking you questions on behalf
00:32:57 will be asking you questions on behalf of the inquiry can I check that you can can hear me okay yes I can fine thank you I'm not going to ask you for your name because it is subject your real name to a restriction order so I will
00:33:08 name to a restriction order so I will will refer to you throughout as hm1 do you follow yes hm1 do you recall making a written statement to this inquiry dated the 18th of May
00:33:20 dated the 18th of May 2022 yes I do a statement of 293 pages in length yes have you had a chance to um look at and refresh your memory from
00:33:32 um look at and refresh your memory from that statement more recently than May of 2022 yes I have and are you able to confirm that its contents are true to the best of your knowledge and belief yes I
00:33:44 yes I can your written evidence stands before the inquiry the purpose of today's session is to ask you some questions about um certain topics within it do you understand yes can I start please by
00:33:57 understand yes can I start please by asking um for a document to be put up on the screen MPS 0727
00:34:10 448 hm1 these are notes made by officers from operation Hearn having spoken to you in
00:34:15 you in 2014 do you recall speaking to officers from operation Hearn in 2014 yes I do can we turn please to page three of this document and do you see if we can we
00:34:30 document and do you see if we can we zoom in please to assist the witness on the section headed impact of
00:34:41 Investigation this hm1 is what the Hearn officers recorded having spoken to you um purporting to represent um your account my feelings with regards to the current status of the SDS is that the unit is considered a pariah its
00:34:56 unit is considered a pariah its activities and successes have been bmer by the disclosures of certain individuals to whom I have no loyalty did you say that to operation Hearn um yeah I I recall yeah that sentiment certainly and those uh that
00:35:14 sentiment certainly and those uh that sentiment expressed your feelings at the time did did it yes mhm to what disclosures were you
00:35:19 referring um I think the um the engagement of um AG grieved colleagues um who has sought to go
00:35:33 colleagues um who has sought to go public um and being bring disrepute as I saw it um on the organization do you mean individuals such as Peter Francis who is known to this inquiry I do yeah he served alongside you did he not in the SDS
00:35:48 alongside you did he not in the SDS joining slightly after you yeah he was there there was an overlap yes and so your feelings at the time were that the
00:35:59 your feelings at the time were that the activities and successes of the unit had been mismer Ed by disclosures of people like Peter Francis is that right yeah people like Peter Francis and those Keen
00:36:10 people like Peter Francis and those Keen to exploit his um willingness to talk to those that were sympathetic to his views and it was the disclosure of information about the unit that you considered affected the unit's
00:36:22 considered affected the unit's reputation rather than the behavior about which he was making disclosure well there's a bit of both um but certainly the
00:36:33 former by the time you said that to operation Hearn in 2014 were you aware that it was alleged for example that Robert Lambert Bob
00:36:47 for example that Robert Lambert Bob Lambert had uh fathered a child whilst in his undercover deployment um I don't recall specifically when I got to know of that
00:37:03 specifically when I got to know of that or became aware the of of the accusation um whether was pre- or post turn um but I certainly remember becoming aware of it and it having been known for some time and would you agree that that behavior bed the uh reputation of the SDS as opposed to its disclosure into
00:37:19 SDS as opposed to its disclosure into the public domain yeah I do agree with that why did you not say that to operation Hearn in 2014 I don't remember specifically being asked that asked about that it was very me Centric you knew when you spoke to operation
00:37:34 you knew when you spoke to operation Hearn in 2014 that you had yourself had a relationship under cover didn't you yes did you not consider that that bmer merched the reputation of the SDS um well I know we're going to talk
00:37:46 SDS um well I know we're going to talk about that later so not in uh no um is a short answer to that so your position in 2014 was that your relationship with Miss Fuller was not something that had a
00:38:04 Miss Fuller was not something that had a negative effect on the reputation of the SDS or was capable of having a negative effect um well um um it depends what people got to learn about that when they hear about what it was all about um it wasn't in my mind something that would ever come to public
00:38:16 ever come to public attention well can I explore that because as I understand what you're saying it's the the problem as it were the difficulty is things coming to
00:38:29 the difficulty is things coming to public attention rather than the conduct itself do I understand you correctly um I think there's um I I know we want concise answers on these things um but we're we're right into sort of a gray area here I think
00:38:42 gray area here I think um this wasn't an explanation for what happened here but the whole concept um of the SDS operation um which people
00:38:54 of the SDS operation um which people signed up to as officers um but also were given that undertaking by the organization but it was a covert unit that would not disclose and not and those engaged in it would not become
00:39:05 those engaged in it would not become known to the public or be made known to the public um and those that sort of breach that code of conduct um was that first category of those that sort of caught distribute to the to the organization in terms of the my conduct
00:39:23 organization in terms of the my conduct itself um and I know we're going to talk about this um I I don't liken it or put it alongside um for example you mentioned Bob Lambert um I I I don't liken it to that in in any shape or
00:39:34 liken it to that in in any shape or form are you aware that before this inquiry the commissioner um has accepted that the conduct of officers who carried out deceitful intimate
00:39:48 who carried out deceitful intimate sexual relationships in their undercover identities was wrong um I am aware with that yes do you uh agree and adopt the same position
00:40:00 uh agree and adopt the same position um well I I accept that it was wrong um but um there's a lot more to it than that um I think most most Affairs are wrong in some shape or form um and this was never planned considered in in in my
00:40:17 was never planned considered in in in my wildest dreams that this was going to be part of any anything that was likely to happen could happen and ended up as happening we'll come back to the detail um of what happened later uh but uh when you say most Affairs are wrong
00:40:35 you say most Affairs are wrong presumably you're not referring to the sort of Affair that involves a police officer acting in official capacity misleading the woman about his true identity are you um no um but I'm making a comparison between
00:40:51 a comparison between um emotions um and in Gray areas where human failes might kick in at a particular moment that lead to a course of conduct which yes probably was not the right thing to do that's what I'm likening to as I understand it when what leads to Affairs that people
00:41:05 leads to Affairs that people subsequently regret um but very rarely are they ever planned so it's the lack of planning that leads you to suggest that it's a gray area am I understanding that correctly well I think um I'm I'm
00:41:20 correctly well I think um I'm I'm talking about me specifically here um so yes I conc it was wrong um and but it wasn't planned and there was an element of um you we're going to talk about this as an element of everything I did was an act of
00:41:31 of everything I did was an act of deception from the very first hello um to the very last goodbye um this was a
00:41:45 to the very last goodbye um this was a more intense obviously um uh engagement um friendship um which I absolutely accept but it wasn't planned but there was to the degree that it could ever be
00:41:56 was to the degree that it could ever be while recognizing I was deceiving I was deceiving everyone um I remember it feeling very real at the time intense and wholly unnecessary in order to maintain your cover do you agree um so I didn't do it
00:42:12 cover do you agree um so I didn't do it with a view to maintaining my cover that wasn't that wasn't the that wasn't that really wasn't what happened I can see how um it might look um the consequences which are slightly different um if I may um of what ensued um did provide me you
00:42:27 um of what ensued um did provide me you know with a level of credibility um but that wasn't the reason um and and indeed as I said it wasn't there was nothing planned it happened and then it lasted
00:42:38 planned it happened and then it lasted and then it and then it concluded um but there was an element of reality to it as part of who I was but it it wasn't real was it you
00:42:50 was but it it wasn't real was it you were a police officer pretending to be somebody else in order to obtain Intelligence on um as it's described animal rights extremism so it wasn't real was it no it wasn't no so none of it's none of it's real um the whole Act
00:43:04 it's none of it's real um the whole Act of deception for everyone none of it was real absolutely that's an intellectual sort of fundamental premise um of of the whole unit's existence in that sense and when it came not just to a hello or a
00:43:15 when it came not just to a hello or a goodbye but to sexual intercourse with a woman that deception deprived her did it not of her agency to choose with whom she entered into a sexual or intimate
00:43:26 she entered into a sexual or intimate relation reltionship um on the basis it wasn't real yes um but I mean I haven't spoken to her since about it um I would I do still
00:43:45 I do still maintain um the the deception bit aside um that they were strong genuine feelings um which I which I retain do you or do you not agree that your conduct in deceiving Miss Fuller besched the SDS
00:44:06 um well um I don't
00:44:12 don't reputationally um if people aren't going to do the detail on this um and listen to where I was coming from and listen possibly to um how others observed what was going on um I have a problem with accepting that
00:44:25 um I have a problem with accepting that without further explanation in the sort of binary yes I accept um because I just don't think my conduct was in any
00:44:38 was in any way similar tantamount to all the other um themes pertaining to other officers um in this particular area right I'll come back and ask you more about that once we've um explored the relationship in a bit more detail um before I move on completely can I um we can take that
00:44:53 completely can I um we can take that document down please but can we have up on the screen ucpi 037 uh sorry one second before I go there uh MPS
00:45:03 MPS 0749
00:45:06 0749 632
00:45:08 632 0749
00:45:19 632 and hm1 this is um it looks like a form it was filled out by the officers who conducted a risk assessment in connection with your application for anonymity before the inquiry do you follow so you would have been spoken to sometime around 2017 and these are part this is part of
00:45:38 2017 and these are part this is part of the notes that they made so we see their hm1 and various um details redacted of your real life can we scroll through this document please until we get to section 2.17 there's a number of blank pages thank you and I I want to draw your attention please hm1 to section
00:45:50 your attention please hm1 to section 2.17 of this document where you appear to have been asked about that your key ass assciates during your undercover deployment do you follow yes do you
00:46:06 deployment do you follow yes do you recall being asked about key Associates by the risk assessors uh yes right and we see there Jeff Shephard Paul grait LTD you can consult the cipher list if you um aren't familiar with who that is do you want to take a moment to do
00:46:21 is do you want to take a moment to do that um no I'm familiar with who that is thank you right so somebody whose name we've rapted um for privacy again a cipher George are you familiar with who that is is yes um Brendan MCN over the page please number seven
00:46:38 MCN over the page please number seven another name that we have redacted for privacy and their number eight Liz Fuller the notes record that you said this about her clever and interested in Revenge she would want him to feel the
00:46:55 Revenge she would want him to feel the pain there's then a physical description and where she lived and with whom she lived
00:46:57 lived no mention there of you having had a deceitful sexual relationship with Miss Fuller is
00:47:04 Fuller is there not on that document no you didn't tell the risk assessors did you that you had entered into a relationship of that nature with Miss Fuller during your deployment I don't remember speaking to
00:47:22 deployment I don't remember speaking to them about it no why not um I assumed it was as they were in touch with
00:47:23 with um my the rest of the outfit um and as part of the general inquiry um that close association between me and Liz was was already known about how
00:47:38 Liz was was already known about how would they know about it if you didn't tell them um well I assume I I didn't give it much thought other than I knew that the whole sort of um the whole process was speaking to everyone had access to all the documents there was
00:47:52 access to all the documents there was one massive disclosure operation going on in which my known Association um with Liz by people um colleagues Associates um was was not
00:48:04 colleagues Associates um was was not hidden so you thought you'd leave it to your fellow undercover officers or SDS managers to tell about the relationship is that is that what you're saying no I don't remember being a conscious stream
00:48:15 don't remember being a conscious stream of thought other than me describing this as a very close Association um with someone um that would not be Keen to find out as with the others that I was an undercover police officer
00:48:32 can we zoom out please if we look at the following two sections close relationships entered into that could impact on risk and behavior that may be subject of criticism that could impact on risk those sections are
00:48:44 on risk those sections are blank so you didn't offer up any information to the risk assessors about behavior of yours that might be the subject of criticism is that right um no
00:48:59 subject of criticism is that right um no i s yeah I I well that looks right to me I remember the whole tenure of the conversation with me as far as risk goes um was the risk of disclosure um and my identification and the degree to which
00:49:15 identification and the degree to which people would be upset by it you said in the in the previous box it's recorded that you said that Liz Fuller would be interested in Revenge um yeah I don't I don't remember that those exact wordings but I I side by the fact that um because of the
00:49:27 by the fact that um because of the closeness of our relationship um um that um it wouldn't do her or me any good and I'd imagine that she'd be very
00:49:41 that she'd be very upset that's precisely the point isn't it
00:49:44 it hm1 it's the closeness of your relationship as to use your words that might have led from your point of view to a risk that Miss Fuller
00:49:55 point of view to a risk that Miss Fuller might want to put your real identity out there for example or your real identity they're intrinsically linked aren't they in your mind um all I say is on that one I liken the same risk and the same motivation and the same angry response I
00:50:13 motivation and the same angry response I put it at the same level for those other individuals as well who would have similar intent motivation um to to do to do the same thing as far as the rist ofy was
00:50:27 concerned but your answer to me a moment ago suggested that it was the closeness of your relationship with with Miss Fuller that gave you cause for concern um and and with others on that list
00:50:35 list too but you didn't disclosed the nature of your relationship with her nonetheless not the sexual relationship no but I made it clear we were very close is that because you were seeking
00:50:53 close is that because you were seeking to disguise or keep quiet the misconduct that reflected was reflected in that relationship misconduct on your part um I
00:50:55 part um I don't I didn't in my mind um associate what I was doing with Miss cond I didn't associate um that particular bit of what
00:51:08 associate um that particular bit of what I was being asked about as anything as I how I perceived the risk to me and what those officers needed to do i s I needed to understand in terms of how I
00:51:19 to understand in terms of how I perceived the anger um and the reaction by those individuals which was all different re on more or less on the same level all right so when you were asked about relationships entered into that
00:51:30 about relationships entered into that could impact upon risk it didn't occur to you to mention that you had had a close intimate and sexual relationship with Miss fer is that the essence of it I um I didn't see for that particular conversation that being um relevant
00:51:45 conversation that being um relevant beyond the fact I'd already describe um a very close
00:51:54 relationship did you understand at the time that the risk assessment was being carried out that its purpose was to inform the chairman of the inquiry about whether or not to Grant you
00:52:09 you anonymity um yes I knew that was part of it yes and did you understand that one of the factors relevant to whether or not to Grant an officer anonymity was the uh interest if I put it this way for now the interest um that
00:52:25 it this way for now the interest um that there might be on the part of a deceived woman to know that identity that it was relevant um
00:52:36 relevant um yes um yes I yeah I do do absolutely um I felt I'd gone I felt I'd gone far enough with in declaring the the closeness and the significance of the closeness um of the relationship I had with not just um uh
00:52:48 relationship I had with not just um uh Denise Liz but with others as well you hadn't disclosed the closeness of your relationship with Miss Fuller though had you I think the words I use I describe it as a very close um a very close
00:53:02 it as a very close um a very close relationship um I thought I felt that was
00:53:04 was sufficient it's materially different isn't it to have a very close relationship in the sense of a friendship with a person from having a an intimate and sexual relationship with somebody in
00:53:16 sexual relationship with somebody in your undercover identity do you accept that um yeah I accept look the undercover identity bit is is is common to it all um um but there
00:53:34 to it all um um but there is all I can say is um um when we try to sort of Imagine um how we might feel is I personally view close nonsexual friendships as um if betrayed um something as equally damaging from um
00:53:45 something as equally damaging from um anything that has a sexual component as well so you didn't see it materially enhancing the risk to you is that in summary what you're suggesting I well at the risk to me no not materially
00:53:56 the risk to me no not materially enhancing that but the closeness of the relationship ship was one that I was Keen to protect from any knowledge that I was an undercover police officer that goes for her and everyone
00:54:07 everyone else can we take that document down please and put up on screen ucpi 0
00:54:17 37227 uh this hm1 is a a narrative um account written by the risk assessors having spoken to you an extract from it and section 4.12
00:54:32 and section 4.12 on the first page um the whole of that please can we zoom in on the whole of 4.12 on the first page so that thank
00:54:43 you hm1 you'll see that is headed relationships entered into or other behavior that could heighten the
00:54:53 risk and here what is recorded by the risk assessors is that you referred to LTD as being a close friend
00:55:06 yes and um can we uh look in particular at par the paragraph beginning in February
00:55:08 February 2014 in February 2014 an internet article mentioned N1 in his pseudonym as having had a
00:55:19 having had a relationship the matter was investigated at Vasco in September 2014 N1 was interviewed under caution and asked directly whether he had had a
00:55:34 and asked directly whether he had had a sexual relationship with LTD he replied no comment it was found that there was no case to answer in relation to criminal or disciplinary matters do you recall being interviewed under caution and asked about whether you had had a
00:55:47 and asked about whether you had had a relationship a sexual relationship with LTD I do
00:55:49 LTD I do yes and you replied no comment to the
00:56:00 yes and you replied no comment to the questions asked of you is that right yes uh did that not trigger you to consider that operation Hearn or the various Police Operations being conducted were specifically interested in whether or not you had had sexual relationships undercover um well I was aware that it
00:56:18 undercover um well I was aware that it did but the interview under caution and that whole conversation was so LTD Centric and focused um from me from even the introduction to what I was going to be spoken to about
00:56:31 spoken to about yes so in the interview you were asked about LTD but my question goes a bit wider than that so hm1 as at 2014 you were aware weren't you that there was interest by the police in whether or not SDS officers deployed
00:56:47 whether or not SDS officers deployed undercover had had sexual relationships in their undercover identities yes and you chose nonetheless not to disclose that you had had such a relationship with Miss Fuller to the to operation Hearn or to the risk
00:57:05 operation Hearn or to the risk assessors um so on operation Hearn um I was only asked about LTD um operation Hearn um made it quite specific that that's what they wanted to talk about
00:57:19 that's what they wanted to talk about um and the you know the rest of my SDS deployment for me was um you know a deeply
00:57:21 deeply covert
00:57:22 covert operation um which was done with the
00:57:32 operation um which was done with the full knowledge and transparency of those wrapped around me um and I would answer their question specifically and that's what I did and that was very I say it was uh there was nothing but LTD that focused or there was no one else other than LTD who focused as part of the oper engagement with
00:57:45 engagement with me is the import of what you've just said that unless you were asked the direct question you were not going to offer up any
00:58:00 offer up any information um yes I didn't didn't trust the process I mean it's um and um yeah um operation home was focused on something I cooperated um it was not to look at um The Wider aspects of the
00:58:11 look at um The Wider aspects of the whole operation and they made that clear at the
00:58:12 at the beginning a and what about the inquiry do you trust the inquiry process um yes and um I hope I don't want any credit at all but um um I hope I get some
00:58:24 all but um um I hope I get some recognition that I've engaged with the inquiry cooperatively at every stage the risk assessment process was connected to the inquiry wasn't
00:58:35 wasn't it
00:58:40 it um I'm sorry it was a bit of a the blur there was so much um risk assessment o her the inquiry um you know I I'd moved
00:58:56 her the inquiry um you know I I'd moved on um and um very keen you know sort of to move on from it so I don't have a clinical
00:58:59 clinical distillation um of who was doing what and how it all connected um as the as far as the inquiry goes um as I say um from day one I would
00:59:08 I would argue um that I had been um as Cooperative as I could have been and can be have you been candid throughout I think I
00:59:19 throughout I think I have can we take that document down please and put up on screen ucpi 037 228 this hm1 is an extract from a
00:59:33 228 this hm1 is an extract from a witness statement that you signed and was submitted on your behalf to the inquiry in support of your application for anonymity in 2017 um the black boxes are simply there because the bits not pertinent to this
00:59:44 because the bits not pertinent to this issue have been uh redacted uh in their entirety can we turn please to the page
00:59:55 two in paragraph nine of your impact statement you you said this I acted professionally and conducted myself with Integrity throughout my SDS deployment was that
01:00:13 candid in my mind it was even though you had had a deceitful sexual relationship with Miss Fuller during the course of that deployment you considered that you nonetheless acted professionally and conducted yourself with Integrity throughout your
01:00:25 deployment I I mean putting it putting it crudely yes um but I do want people to hear more about this when we get to it and then you know they they can judge I will come to the detail to to permit
01:00:39 I will come to the detail to to permit that judgment to be made hm1 but at the moment I'm asking you questions on the basis that the commissioner has acknowledged that having a deceitful sexual relationship with a woman in in your undercover identity was wrong bearing in mind that
01:00:52 wrong bearing in mind that acknowledgement do you maintain that you acted professionally and conducted yourself with Integrity throughout your under a deployment with the SDS um so I'm I'm not I'm not contesting and I'm not disagreeing with that
01:01:03 and I'm not disagreeing with that finding that acknowledgment by the commissioner that was um that was not a position um by anyone of the day uh that made clear that this gray area um was um
01:01:18 made clear that this gray area um was um was anything other than a gray area what was gray about it for uh1 um so there's I think there there's a stage before you know um before we
01:01:30 stage before you know um before we engaged in um a sexual relationship there was it remained absolutely it
01:01:42 there was it remained absolutely it hadn't even crossed my mind um Emma that I this was ever going to be part of a strategy it it didn't feature any conversation um as part of my um uh planning and preparation um I didn't expect to see anything written down about it it didn't
01:01:55 anything written down about it it didn't it wasn't even a stream of Consciousness um
01:01:56 um um and it was something say everything is caveated with the fact yes it was an act of deception I mean I say I've deceived everyone from day one that's the the tenant of the whole operation
01:02:16 tenant of the whole operation but the I do liken it to an affair that shouldn't happen but there was a level of
01:02:19 of intensity um which for me felt real um and genuine and I shouldn't have I know it was wrong um
01:02:30 um and is that sort of a sort of does that condemn in perpetuity sort of um that my my whole sort of um conduct and operation and reputation I had um
01:02:47 operation and reputation I had um I beyond that acknowledgement um in the circumstances in which it happened and how I thought we felt about each other um and for which I still I still I still cared genuinely even though there's this whole deception angle um i' I'd ask
01:03:02 whole deception angle um i' I'd ask others to make that judgment but I don't I do distance myself um from that statement from a subsequent commissioner attempting to draw a line under conduct which I find absolutely
01:03:18 appalling do I understand then that the commissioner's position influenced whether or not you yourself disclosed the deceitful relationship no I don't even remember paying attention to that um um until it was
01:03:36 attention to that um um until it was sort of you know delivered to me as this is the statement how do you feel about that um do you it was a discussion around how do you think you fit into that apology um because there was some I can't remember the whole the whole language um
01:03:48 language um but um some of the adjectives used um I in myself contested because that was n um I didn't think they applied to
01:03:59 was n um I didn't think they applied to me and I still don't so you don't align yourself wholeheartedly with the apology issued on behalf of the commissioner oh I do I do I align my I align myself with my own apology but it was yes it was
01:04:19 my own apology but it was yes it was wrong um I you know um it was wrong it's um so whats wrong generally um this was wrong what do you mean sorry my own apology you said I align myself with my own apology well yeah so there's a there I'd have used a different set of words than the commissioner used um I'm you
01:04:33 than the commissioner used um I'm you know but my whole sort of if you like approach to what I was asked to do was that no one would ever find out so no one in essence gets hurt um you know you can have suspicions and you can it can
01:04:51 can have suspicions and you can it can all be inconclusive um but it was it was with that mindset um and approach which most of us had actually it was an operation in which um your presence would never be declared regardless of whether people speculated subsequently
01:05:04 whether people speculated subsequently um that's what you might have been does it follow from that that your view is that it's okay to deceive a woman into a sexual relationship so long as there's no chance of her ever finding out no no I'm I'm aware that as soon as I say
01:05:15 I'm I'm aware that as soon as I say things like I've just said it lends itself to that question um I absolutely do not think that there's a link between the two I'm making a distinction between what happened
01:05:26 what happened um that was totally unplanned but was the wrong thing to do um but it was a product
01:05:36 product of um how two individuals felt about each
01:05:37 each other when you say how two individuals felt about each other Miss Fuller didn't know that the person she was entering
01:05:49 know that the person she was entering into a sexual relationship with was a police officer did she um no um although there were plenty of suspicions about me U but I I absolutely wasn't um relying on that um for to assume that she didn't know no
01:06:04 for to assume that she didn't know no any more than anyone else with whom I I became very close and so how she felt or may have thought she felt at the time was based on a lie wasn't it it was absolutely
01:06:16 on a lie wasn't it it was absolutely everything I did was based on a lie um because I was an undercover police officer I mean all I can offer on this one
01:06:20 one is
01:06:23 is um I wasn't the side I don't believe I was acting I don't believe I was deceiving I don't
01:06:35 don't believe I was deceiving I don't believe I was purporting to be anything other than what is 95% the person I am anyway um so take the LIE out of it which I which I accept poisons the whole thing I absolutely concede that as it
01:06:46 thing I absolutely concede that as it does for everything I did in SDS with friendships um everything with that Taken as red um there was there was an element of reality to it for me um and
01:06:57 element of reality to it for me um and well I can't speak for I won't speak for this but you say in your witness statement you acknowledge that she would not have entered into that sort of relationship with you had she known that you were a police officer so the the
01:07:11 you were a police officer so the the deception was material to her decision on whether she consented to that relationship wasn't it um I um I maintain that I wouldn't have got a
01:07:23 maintain that I wouldn't have got a hallow from anyone um uh had anyone you believed beyond the suspicions that I actually was an undercover police officer so and you take it to that level yes I mean but you accept don't you that a hello is quite different from a sexual relationship I I totally do it was more
01:07:35 relationship I I totally do it was more the answer to the question um uh but um the deception andle kicks in as soon as you know you are U looking for that reciprocal
01:07:52 hello it doesn't follow that the deception has to go as far as deceiving someone into a sexual relationship though does it no it doesn't and it wasn't intended to um I still think there's a gray area when it comes to that sort of
01:08:05 to that sort of um
01:08:15 um nuanced interpretation and every case is different between a sexual relationship and and an intense friendship that is nonsexual
01:08:21 nonsexual um so so you think that an intense friendship that is nonsexual is comparable to a sexual relationship in terms of the effect of the deceit is that what you're saying so so personally and I'm only talking
01:08:33 so personally and I'm only talking personally not in terms of what I've done personally um if I was betrayed by a friend in this way um that was nonsexual but was a level of intensity that exists in real life I um I I don't
01:08:51 that exists in real life I um I I don't think I would make that distinction um I I I don't know um because it hasn't happened to me um but intense friendships for me nonex seual um carry the same level
01:09:05 the same level of um seriousness and I can only imagine the same level of hurt where I to be betrayed in the same way did you listen to um any of the evidence of Miss Fuller that was given
01:09:17 evidence of Miss Fuller that was given yesterday um I didn't listen no um I'm I'm aware
01:09:19 I'm aware of um what was said have you had a chance to read the witness statement that she's Prov guided to this inquiry yes you understand don't you
01:09:31 inquiry yes you understand don't you that the impact on her of finding out that she had been in a relationship with somebody who was not who he said he was has been severe yes much more severe
01:09:43 has been severe yes much more severe than simply the impact on those with
01:09:53 than simply the impact on those with whom you were friends somebody like Paul grait or Jeff Shephard for example um I haven't seen their I haven't had a conversation or seen their impact statements as to how they um how they really feel is your evidence that you didn't at any time foresee nor upon reflection understand that the
01:10:08 upon reflection understand that the impact upon Denise Fuller Liz Fuller of having had an intimate and sexual relationship with you would be greater than simply forming a close friendship with
01:10:16 with somebody um yes yes do you see it now um I do see it now yes absolutely I mean I
01:10:27 mean I would yes um and what has changed sorry sorry go on what has changed that means that you see it now but you didn't see it
01:10:38 it before um maybe I maybe I didn't mean I didn't see it before sorry I might have misheard you I big your pardon um I in terms of what would I
01:10:50 terms of what would I anticipate the level of hurt to be by finding out that I was an undercover officer um it was always clear to me that the level of hurt um as it would be for me I know that um would be deeply distressing um when you
01:11:09 would be deeply distressing um when you see it in written form um it sort of it it enforces and brings home the
01:11:14 home the suffering um but that wasn't my intent never has been um and
01:11:25 I'm you I I I regret that it's had this effect um as I say it wasn't my in mention that my presence as or identification as a undercover officer would would ever be ever be made known I'll come back to more questions
01:11:40 known I'll come back to more questions about the relationship later um hm1 can I can I um can we take that document down and ask I'm going to ask you some questions now please working broadly chronologically starting with briefly the work that you were doing before you
01:11:55 the work that you were doing before you joined the SDS and your understanding of SDS work during that period do you follow yes so in your witness statement you uh described that prior to joining the SDS you worked on cquad on the
01:12:10 the SDS you worked on cquad on the domestic extremism desk is that right yes and that covered amongst other things um animal rights yes um you uh say in your witness statement that the SDS was never spoken
01:12:27 statement that the SDS was never spoken about is that right correct yeah not not not to not the newcomers anyway do you mean newcomers to special Branch yes yeah and you also say that the longer you remained in special Branch the more it became clear that there was some sort
01:12:39 it became clear that there was some sort of undercover capability do you remember saying that yes I do how specifically did it come to your attention that there was undercover capability within special Branch um I think there was
01:12:58 Branch um I think there was a um as you became uh more familiar with the outfit uh more trusted um had more visibility of what were then covert units um even within special branch and certain terminology would get used on intelligence reports um to indicate their
01:13:08 their Providence um you became aware of um you became aware of this coat capability and then if you couple that with um I guess for one of a better term there was
01:13:25 for one of a better term there was Talent spotting um that went on um by either former SDS officers or the current leadership um running uh the organization um I guess you Talent
01:13:37 organization um I guess you Talent spotting potential potentially suitable um officers that might be um might be good at that work and might want to do it and that's what eventually happened to you isn't it you were approached by
01:13:48 to you isn't it you were approached by people connected to the SDS Bob Lambert I think in particular uh yes indeed yeah so you gained some understanding
01:14:02 yeah so you gained some understanding that there was undercover capability you also say in your witness statement that you gained indirectly an understanding of the value of the output of the SDS can you describe how you CA came to
01:14:14 SDS can you describe how you CA came to gain that understanding about its value not just its existence yeah because on on the desk you had access to um like the what was then minting on paper files um up and down the chain um and you would see sort of either the
01:14:26 would see sort of either the commendations um by seniors within the met or uh ministerial interest um in the value placed um and a letter of thanks um and that sort of the culture of
01:14:42 um and that sort of the culture of having access to you know that type of Correspondence so that's the sort of thing that you saw before you joined the SDS yes yes because it went part and
01:14:53 SDS yes yes because it went part and parcel with if you like SDS being part of special branch and it was normally subsumed especially when it was sort of at ministerial level um thanks and appreciation for something related to a specific event that had been valuable C can you remember any specific example
01:15:11 can you remember any specific example seeing a specific example of that before you joined the SDS or is that a a broad recollection um it's it's a broad recollection um but um there the nature
01:15:23 recollection um but um there the nature and the coverage of SDS was quite broad so it was even alowing for the desk I was on which was s domestic um extremism um it covered what was very prevalent the day um the threat from Irish Republican terrorism on the
01:15:41 Irish Republican terrorism on the mainland um and um other forms of if you like politically inspired violence um and the disruption or furtherance of disruption um of specific events linked to that type of activity would always be the subject of correspondence from
01:15:52 the subject of correspondence from Seniors um and government which the leadership of special bch were Keen to convey um to um to their
01:16:04 employees you refer um in your witness statement also to um the sorts of questions um that might be submitted so for example what level of public disorder could be expected at an event
01:16:16 disorder could be expected at an event might be a question that as a desk a SE Squad officer you had yes and you described that in your statement as
01:16:31 described that in your statement as standard tasking for the SDS yes did you when you were on the cquad desk cquad sorry knowingly submit that sort of query for the attention of an SDS undercover officer or did you simply submit the question not knowing who might answer it or how it might be answered yeah there was a there was a
01:16:42 answered yeah there was a there was a formula for submitting it um through the detective Chief Inspector who would then be responsible for the answers to the tasking um so it wouldn't be to name
01:16:53 tasking um so it wouldn't be to name people no it would be into um discreetly um the unit and then yeah it wouldn't be it wouldn't be specific when you refer
01:17:04 it wouldn't be specific when you refer to the detective uh Chief Inspector in the unit you mean the detective Chief Inspector of the SDS is that right yes it would go through if you really want the hierarchy the detective Chief Inspector um outside of SDS so these
01:17:15 Inspector um outside of SDS so these were the sort of the big Chiefs um of the central squads who owned if you like the relationship with this covert unit he would minute the file the task to the detective heor in charge of the
01:17:28 detective heor in charge of the SDS um and the tasking would be responded to um and fed back um to the to to the desk in the same way but in the
01:17:41 the verse and as the desk officer submitting that query would you have directed it for the attention of the SDS or was that for the DCI the big cheese as you refer to to decide I'll send this to the
01:17:55 to to decide I'll send this to the SDS um it was It was a bit of both but it was a it was a sort of automated process knowing that that would be where quite often the most valuable insight
01:18:14 quite often the most valuable insight into um the mood the size the opposition um what was being planned um the SDS held the most accurate if you like upto-date
01:18:16 upto-date information um on what that was likely to be and the customer ultimately for this was you know the um uniform police divisions that were
01:18:30 divisions that were linking our assessment to the degree to which they would need to police um and prevent disorder and protect whatever subject of the demonstration was I think you know most people I mean I hope this
01:18:41 you know most people I mean I hope this is relevant mind I think the days anyone sort of born post 2000 um will have no conception of um the we we've lost almost the ability now um uh
01:18:54 um uh to demonstrate properly if you like um in old fashion terms large scale demonstrations and bringing London to a halt and the sort of the political activation on the activism on the streets is very much a product of that period which um anyone sort of I say
01:19:13 period which um anyone sort of I say born in the last 20 years uh can have no sort of comprehension understanding of and it seems a bit odd when we talk about this but the value of the Intelligence on insights into the level of public disorder especially for the really big events um that was where we got sort of get most of
01:19:28 got sort of get most of our cost a unit not specifically what I was doing most of our most of our Q do and value because it linked to police resourcing and prevention of disorder which otherwise would have been in some cases quite catastrophic that that was an answer about the SDS the value of the SDS am I am I understanding that
01:19:40 SDS am I am I understanding that correctly um you are but SDS um for policing nationally was part of special Branch so um the customer if you like would not
01:19:52 would not differentiate um the customer would look to special branch and it's remix for this work um within special Branch um the SDS specifically was the unit that was able to give if you like the most pre and up to-date information on
01:20:05 most pre and up to-date information on mood and numbers and the nature of the opposition so just focusing back on the where I started the level of
01:20:18 where I started the level of knowledge that you had as a c Squad officer of the SDS and what it was doing what was your level of of knowledge well it became I guess it became more increment by the day um as uh I
01:20:30 as uh I was identified as maybe uh being um someone that could do this work um been
01:20:41 someone that could do this work um been encouraged to speak to others um others encouraged to speak to me about um uh more insight um into what it was all about and so incrementally as I say um I was sort of building discreetly
01:20:53 was sort of building discreetly knowledge of the capability um the value um the way of living the way of working to what extent did your work on C Squad inform you regarding special Branch's interest in the animal rights
01:21:04 Branch's interest in the animal rights movement and animal rights activism um it was it was deeply um embedded um so the whole sort of domestic extremist
01:21:15 the whole sort of domestic extremist agenda um and the overlap with um the extreme elements of the um animal whites movement um was all part of that
01:21:29 movement um was all part of that particular part of what special Branch did on on as you say C Squad did you learn about for example whether there were particular individuals that special Branch was interested in or types of activism
01:21:44 interested in or types of activism within the animal rights movement um as as time went on um yes it was very I mean within policing it was all very public um um these were this was an era of very prevalent campaigns um arson
01:21:56 of very prevalent campaigns um arson campaigns um which you know new headline grabbing stuff um so it was out there in the sort of the if you like the public narrative um there was considerable
01:22:12 narrative um there was considerable resource outside of SDS nationally um uh looking at this the threat posed by the extremist elements um of that particular movement um and the efforts and the efforts ongoing to sort of thwart that
01:22:23 efforts ongoing to sort of thwart that particular element of it and so it was it was a big it was headline grabbing daily if you like requirements um such was the sort of nature of of how prevalent that type of activity was what
01:22:37 prevalent that type of activity was what I'm trying to understand is whether your work on cquad so not your exposure to what was in the public domain but your work on C Squad meant that you had an understanding for example of particular individuals who were deemed to be of
01:22:48 individuals who were deemed to be of interest to special Branch or particular groups yes yes absolutely yeah so before you started your deployment as an SDS officer you had had you some
01:22:59 officer you had had you some understanding of what special Branch was interested in in the animal rights field very much so
01:23:15 yes the animal rights um movement I think you acknowledge in your witness statement uh contained um a s of legitimate and lawful campaigners and
01:23:26 legitimate and lawful campaigners and campaigning did it not um yeah the vast vast vast
01:23:28 vast vast majority to what extent was it considered when you eventually deployed as an undercover officer that you would inevitably come into
01:23:40 inevitably come into contact with people carrying out holy legitimate and lawful campaigning um in the name of animal rights AB absolutely understood um believed accepted um and
01:23:55 believed accepted um and realized to what extent did you receive any
01:23:56 any guidance about the question of proportionality with regard to reporting on such individuals so was it deemed proportionate to report on people
01:24:10 proportionate to report on people carrying out lawful and legitimate campaigning activities um well um the proportionality was all about um the
01:24:23 proportionality was all about um the efforts required to get through and be able to identif ify those engaged in activity that was certainly not um in any way lawful and was associated with acts of violence um Arsen and planning
01:24:38 acts of violence um Arsen and planning and intimidation and economic damage now um it's people were deeply hidden obviously um and there was a vast gray
01:24:55 obviously um and there was a vast gray swaye of um legitimacy legitimacy on the left hand side but um as you progressed across that sort of Ven diagram um a morphing and and a changing sometimes of of allegiances from extremism into more
01:25:09 of allegiances from extremism into more moderate and then um and and the and and the opposite as well so yes an acceptance that um there was a need to be present within a movement that was largely um engaged in lawful
01:25:20 that was largely um engaged in lawful activity but there was that gray area which I needed to get to as Qui quickly as possible your question on
01:25:33 as possible your question on proportionality um with the minimum of incursion on others um on on others private lives and
01:25:45 private lives and so I so why was I chosen to do this all I can answer is um and I in many of my colleagues um I saw the same um and I know we don't like this term professionalism because we'll we'll come back to that sort of Challenge on it but um there's a level of Integrity conduct Behavior
01:25:54 Behavior while having a job to do and a tightly defined requirement um and being asked to do it and and recognized for it um a
01:26:07 to do it and and recognized for it um a need to make those judgments call those judgment calls on proportionality uh while operating in that gray area but ultimately an area in which you were
01:26:21 ultimately an area in which you were alone um and it was those judgment calls you had to make and defend them I'll come back to the question of selection of officers and professionalism and integrity but my question was really aimed at at whether or not there was any
01:26:36 aimed at at whether or not there was any guidance any line any rule on whether or not it was proportionate for have to have an undercover officer reporting on those who were engaged in entirely lawful and legitimate campaigning um so I think the reporting would only be um to my mind um related
01:26:54 would only be um to my mind um related to individuals um that um were associate iated in some way with those that if those individuals themselves weren't engaged in criminal activity they were associating themselves with individuals that the state needed to know more
01:27:08 that the state needed to know more about as an investig as an intelligence Target right so individuals who were not themselves engaged in anything other than lawful and legitimate activity
01:27:23 than lawful and legitimate activity might find themselves reported on by virtue of their association with an individual involved in unlawful or potentially unlawful activity is they they often wouldn't know it was it would only be by association of the types of
01:27:37 only be by association of the types of events that they turned up at which gave an
01:27:46 an indication um that these people might be involved in something that was anything other than law- abiding now I can remember just as often um providing an assessment that
01:27:57 often um providing an assessment that these individuals were Absol Ely not um part of any extremist agenda and we're not of interest um and um colleagues found as helpful as the opposite um yes they are associating themselves they have changed
01:28:11 associating themselves they have changed their demeanor their mood has changed um and they're surrounding themselves or they're making themselves trying to get closer to those that were certainly um engaged in unlawful activity so it's a
01:28:22 engaged in unlawful activity so it's a spectrum but there was as much sort of if you like intelligent certainly from my end going and saying that absolutely of no interest whatsoever and unless that changed that would that was as helpful as as the opposite so on that approach
01:28:36 as as the opposite so on that approach therefore it it is quite possible that as an undercover officer deployed into the animal rights field you would be
01:28:47 the animal rights field you would be submitting reports on individuals who were doing nothing but lawful and legitimate campaigning um that simply to recall that sorry I'm beg a Pard interrupt sorry no I'm sorry simp simply to record that they were engaged in lawful and legitimate
01:28:59 legitimate campaigning that type of that type of report would normally be specifically in response to someone I was being asked about um I wasn't I wasn't proactively
01:29:13 about um I wasn't I wasn't proactively reporting on those that um were if you like benign for want of a better term it's a clumsy word I know it's normally in response to what do you know about
01:29:24 in response to what do you know about this person um and in many cases it was um not of Interest but you accept therefore that amongst your reporting were swept up people who were of no interest to the police no
01:29:39 of no interest to the police no legitimate interest um that was part of part and parcel of the deployment yes absolutely yeah thank you can I move on to ask you some questions um you've mentioned it in passing but to how you came to be recruited and selected for the
01:29:54 recruited and selected for the SDS um in your witness statement you uh describe being approached by other special Branch officers including Robert Lambert um and another former undercover officer who I'm not going to refer to by name or by a cipher Who had who was
01:30:11 name or by a cipher Who had who was already known to you you describe that person as having been something of a mentor to
01:30:13 mentor to me yes and having a number of conversations with those two individuals
01:30:24 conversations with those two individuals and with members of the SDS itself about what the role would involve and its challenges it's paragraphs 9 and 10 of your statement for those following yes do you remember saying that I do and what you said in your
01:30:36 that I do and what you said in your statement was that you couldn't remember exactly but you expect that you had conversations with the managers in the unit at the time that's detective inspector hn 67 and detective Chief Inspector hn
01:30:51 67 and detective Chief Inspector hn 86 yes you've seen the cipher list to understand to I'm referring and having had all of those uh conversations I want to ask you what you were given to understand about certain
01:31:07 were given to understand about certain aspects of the role so for example did anybody discuss with you how long the deployment would likely last yes um so all of that um it was it was build as a minimum of um 3 years um
01:31:23 was build as a minimum of um 3 years um uh was was the successful model that was um relied upon um could be longer um and it was made clear I mean certain things were made very clear um
01:31:36 certain things were made very clear um as to um the the very secret nature of it um
01:31:41 it um the um the lonely the loneliness of it but the Reliance on um very tight controls governance um protections um but it was ultimately a a
01:31:53 protections um but it was ultimately a a low job um and wouldn't suit most um but the the product of the unit collectively over the years um was rendered special
01:32:10 over the years um was rendered special Branch itself you know a really quite a valuable potent outfit and if that was the type of work um that I might be interested in come and chat further we think you would be good at it that type
01:32:23 think you would be good at it that type of conversation right the tight controls governance and protection that you've just referred to can you elaborate on that yeah it was um as soon as you are um as soon as you had been
01:32:34 um as soon as you had been selected um you then began The Disappearance um disappearance from all police mainstream um engagement um connection with police
01:32:54 engagement um connection with police buildings um you began that if you like that sort of cultural shift um to uh a non-p police world and no collection with the police world so sorry sorry to interrupt you mean therefore controls in terms of creating an
01:33:05 controls in terms of creating an undercover or the ability to be to be an undercover officer rather than controls on your behavior once you undercover um oh yes okay I was I specifically meant yes the the former in this particular
01:33:17 yes the the former in this particular part of the conversation yeah um so the whole the whole infrastructure was covert and it was um that was made very clear as to um the importance placed on
01:33:31 clear as to um the importance placed on secrecy protection of identities um and the
01:33:32 the likes in terms of the challenges of the
01:33:45 likes in terms of the challenges of the role that you discussed prior to joining the unit in your witness statement you refer to um discussion about the work being difficult and dangerous that there there would be challenges for you and on your family life
01:33:54 life and that you would see your ordinary life disappear it's paragraph 11 of your witness statement firstly be careful with names but with
01:34:07 firstly be careful with names but with whom did you discuss the challenges of the undercover role I'll ask you by individual did you discuss them with hn 67 and hn 86 the managers in the SDS before you joined the
01:34:22 unit yes did you discuss them with Robert Lambert who had approached you and did you discuss them with the other officer for whom I will not give a name or Cipher who you described as having
01:34:34 or Cipher who you described as having been something of a mentor to you did you discuss the challenges with that officer yes so a selection of managers and former undercover officers correct
01:34:52 and former undercover officers correct did you have access to currently serving SDS officers before you joined the unit with whom you discussed the challenges of the role yes before you joined the SDS before I joined yeah selectively yeah yeah and how did you access those individuals if I can put it that way
01:35:03 individuals if I can put it that way because they were then in a covert unit that you didn't know entirely what it was about or who was involved presumably but those particular ones this was once I'd been if you like
01:35:19 I'd been if you like selected um and um it was I was allowed to go and visit one of the safe houses right so that was after you'd actually been selected for the SDS after i' been
01:35:30 been selected for the SDS after i' been selected but before I'd sort of you know um made any um sort of serious inotes into the beginning of the process right and those were officers then serving undercover is that right correct again we have to be a little
01:35:47 correct again we have to be a little careful in terms of names and I'll come back to this but did those officers include for example John dyes yes Andrew Kohl's um
01:35:54 Kohl's um not at that stage uh did you ever speak please consult the cipher list to the officer hn 87 who deployed in also into the animal uh rights field but before you
01:36:11 animal uh rights field but before you did you speak to officers who were not deployed into the animal rights field yes they certainly could I ask you you've got a cipher list uh there but please take care
01:36:30 the individuals on your Cipher list who have any uh red coloring on your Cipher list please don't mention any of those names MH right uh but you can use there is a number down the left hand side that
01:36:44 is a number down the left hand side that you can use so that we can understand to whom you're referring so on the column number
01:36:46 number yeah which officers other than Andrew koh's who I've asked you about John dyes who I've asked you about did you speak to using that number please okay um
01:37:05 53 anybody else
01:37:14 48 all right just pause there please because I can say that that is hn
01:37:19 90 yes
01:37:31 just going down the
01:37:43 list you can stop at the end of page two because you won't find any um undercover officers on the third page okay all right so um H and9 and one other officer who I won't uh mention um the you spoke
01:37:55 who I won't uh mention um the you spoke to those individuals in addition to John dyes between being selected and recruited for the SDS yes and you spoke to them did you about the challenges uh that you were likely to face as an undercover officer
01:38:10 officer challenges um preparation nature of the day-to-day life um they all had a different take um uh on on it so um the conversation going
01:38:22 on on it so um the conversation going any one of another directions um it was what what it took to succeed um or how they'd um approached the whole uh if you like gaining and securing credibility
01:38:34 credibility um impact on wider life um standard standard questions and the biggest bit really though was about um you know that entry on the that day
01:38:48 um you know that entry on the that day one entry as to how colleagues had gone around gone about not prepping their Legends so much but you know making the
01:38:59 Legends so much but you know making the plung on that first day um and how they how they' sought to approach that um stylistically culturally um and it's the lifestyle the lifestyle related approach to to this work right which everyone had a different view on
01:39:12 which everyone had a different view on by the way all right so so no single um as it were guiding piece of advice but rather a collection of individual views based on person I think it reflected the it reflected the different type of if you like
01:39:21 you like personalities um the the Common Thread though was one of care and patience um and S being being
01:39:34 and S being being largely invisible and not not being spoken about too early on you say in your witness statement that you were given advice to separate your personal life from your undercover
01:39:45 your personal life from your undercover Persona was that advice given to you by uh undercover officers former or serving by the management a combination of those yeah it was um that it was all of them
01:39:58 yeah it was um that it was all of them but I think well I know what they were all referring to there was the actual if you like the the tangible links um so those that would I guess compromise the link between those two lives um as
01:40:10 link between those two lives um as opposed to being radically different in um sort of Outlook views voice accent um it was more the keep those clinically
01:40:26 it was more the keep those clinically separate um from the sort of Integrity of those two lives perspective you also say that in your witness statement paragraph 11 that you
01:40:39 witness statement paragraph 11 that you were advised to have anchors in the real world and that managers were Keen to know that you were in a stable relationship do you recall referring to that yeah I do and that was the um that was one of the requirements actually yeah so you understood that you were required to be in a relationship
01:40:53 required to be in a relationship um yeah so that was there would be odd examples of where people weren't but um the case would really have to be made um but the stable relationship was all
01:41:06 but the stable relationship was all about um that sort of somewhere to go uh in what is otherwise you know a very a very lonely way of operating is that all that it was about or was it also about trying to ensure that officers didn't
01:41:17 trying to ensure that officers didn't enter into sexual relationships whilst they were deployed so that it just that aspect of it just never came up it never
01:41:28 aspect of it just never came up it never it wasn't of interest to me it wasn't um it just was so it was so not spoken about um but I can and I and I believe in this by the way if I had been a manager I would have insisted on a
01:41:40 manager I would have insisted on a stable anchor doesn't matter what it is a stable anchor is normally the conventional relationship um and trusted and secure one in
01:41:52 one in which um you know these two lives could come together um in in in a in a very trusting way absence that um it's um it clearly didn't work for some as well as it could have been had that infrastructure being in
01:42:09 place if the importance of the relationship was simply to
01:42:11 simply to have a stable home somebody to come home to it would have sufficed wouldn't it if you were for example living with a sibling or a parent but the managers
01:42:25 sibling or a parent but the managers were interest Ed in whether or not you had a relationship of the type of a marriage whether formally or informally yeah I think it was The Sibling bit not quite the same or parent this is more
01:42:38 quite the same or parent this is more you know do you have a trusted reliable friend um partner that's up for this journey with you um because you know by Heavens you're going to need
01:42:51 Heavens you're going to need that and your evidence is that at no point was even the risk of being entering into a sexual relationship
01:43:03 relationship contemplated before you deployed by by Me by you or anybody in conversational communication with you no absolutely no never never came up um but for me it
01:43:14 never never came up um but for me it wouldn't have even been you know what what if this happens it was just it was just so not there looking back do you think it would have been helpful if
01:43:33 think it would have been helpful if that's something that had been actively considered um as in as in specifically um prescribed prescribed or or or just some guidance given to you for example whether or not it was de uh deemed
01:43:45 whether or not it was de uh deemed permissible or not yeah well if the if the is it permissible no it's not it's prescribed um is that by definition um would have been
01:43:57 that by definition um would have been would have led to a different outcome I guess in terms of what happened because it would have been something that maybe who can say who can say um sorry go on ick problem are you saying that if
01:44:13 go on ick problem are you saying that if during at some point before you deployed during this period it had been made clear to you that entering into a sexual relationship was forbidden
01:44:26 was forbidden and that it would have made a difference to how you conducted yourself in regard to Miss
01:44:30 to Miss Fuller so I think the answer to that has to be yes but I don't know I just because that is not what happened um I would think if it's if it's actually
01:44:42 would think if it's if it's actually prescribed which would have been a very unusual thing to commit to paper in terms of you know um how most legislation in terms of what states are
01:44:53 legislation in terms of what states are allowed to do are have an element of you know leeway for proportion ality and necessity but doesn't specifically prescribe um and certainly at this time that was the culture um of intelligence gathering was all about proportionality
01:45:07 gathering was all about proportionality and necessity um but your question would it have made a difference had it been specifically prescribed I can't imagine I would have breached that um if it was if it had been specific what about what about putting
01:45:21 specific what about what about putting to one side prescription what about if one of your managers had said to you look now we do not recommend that at any time you enter into a sexual relationship with a woman during your
01:45:33 relationship with a woman during your undercover deployment would that have put you
01:45:35 put you off I think it probably would have done uh but it didn't happen so I don't know and I really can't say um because when we get to you know the sort of the what happened
01:45:47 happened bit
01:45:54 bit um can't say but it would have had a bearing certainly it would been a um a um I guess um a
01:46:06 break a break as in b r a k e just looking at the yeah no sort of you know that if this is look youve made it clear this is this is not to happen I I just don't know because it it didn't happen that way and all I can say what did
01:46:20 that way and all I can say what did based on absence of any of that and this well sorry I'm repeating myself now the the sort of this gray area of judgment cause but this what we're talking about
01:46:31 cause but this what we're talking about here as about as far from any conception I had that this might ever happen um being present at that time so do I understand from that that when um this is a rather cold way of saying it and I apologize but when the opportunity for a
01:46:46 apologize but when the opportunity for a relationship presented itself to you I'm just going to use that formulation for now before we come to the detail you considered whether or not you should go ahead and enter a relationship sh to be a gray
01:46:54 a gray area
01:46:57 area um okay so your your words sort of the the crudeness of the question is um the
01:47:09 the crudeness of the question is um the crudeness of the answer is I I didn't I didn't think about it in those terms I didn't think about whether it was permissible I knew it I knew it was a gray area um it was I mean if you gosh you know I'm not making light of this if you're reading Ed no' Brian novel it's um uh you just stepped off the cliff and
01:47:31 um uh you just stepped off the cliff and were were sort of falling if you like on the point of no return um it was it was a moment like that as opposed to any articulation or formulation or calculation or consultation um as to whether this was permissible or not but when you I'm trying to understand hm1 when you give
01:47:47 trying to understand hm1 when you give evidence and say it was a gray area what do you mean oh but well there was there was nothing um for cluding advising against um this type of activity it
01:48:01 against um this type of activity it was um these were judgment calls um and if there had have been um there would have been ample opportunity I'm not um this was my own judgment I'm not I'm not obis skating this one by definition I'm not this is very personal but
01:48:13 not this is very personal but um whatever others have said this was absolutely not being done um outside of and without the knowledge um of of others
01:48:24 knowledge um of of others um there would have been plenty of opportunity um to um advise
01:48:37 otherwise I'm just pausing hm1 I know we started somewhat late I don't know whether the intention is that we take a break I'm being told 12:15 right I'll
01:48:49 break I'm being told 12:15 right I'll carry on to the next um topic may I just inquire of the uh short handwriter whether a break is now needed
01:49:08 I'm we're being told 12:15 so 12:15 yes and before you go on could I just um ask that the transcript is corrected uh as um I've been reading it the word proscribed has come out as prescribed what the witness was saying was that it was not prescribed not that it was not prescribed
01:49:27 thank you hm1 at the time that you were um selected for the SDS you were in fact in a stable relationship weren't you yes and you describe in your witness statement that one of the managers spoke
01:49:40 statement that one of the managers spoke to your partner at your home address yes do you remember um saying that it's paragraph 14 of your witness statement if if you need to follow or anyone
01:49:51 if if you need to follow or anyone else's following I do recall that y that happened once you were already in the back office you say in your Witness statement is that right yes so in a sense by the time your partner was spoken to it was already too
01:50:05 already too late for a decision to be taken that you wouldn't join the SDS um I think I no I think when you're in the back office anything can happen and did to some so it was far it was it was the back office is a it's quite a long drawn out process
01:50:25 long drawn out process um um it could easily been reversed um so do you think if your partner had expressed uh concerns uh following that meeting with your
01:50:39 your managers you would have been offered the opportunity to pull out and decide you didn't want to go ahead with the undercover deployment yeah I think I'd have probably known that prior to any conversation with between my partner and the manager I
01:50:50 between my partner and the manager I think you say in your statement that you had already spoken to her about about the sort of work that you were going to enter into before your managers did is that right oh yeah absolutely yeah and there absolute expectation that you
01:51:01 there absolute expectation that you would have done one would have done when you say absolute expectation was that communicated to you that you should do it or was it a decision you took yourself to speak to her U no it's part of the ongoing engagement with who can I
01:51:14 of the ongoing engagement with who can I tell who can I consult and at what point do you know I formally start talking about this but did anybody in the uh management of the SDS say to you
01:51:27 management of the SDS say to you explicitly you should make sure that your partner understands what this involves and that she's content uh that you should go ahead um yeah it was part of yes absolutely it was um be as you be as
01:51:39 absolutely it was um be as you be as explicit as possible on the things that are going to be sort of radically different were this deployment to go ahead and when you spoke to her were you candid and explicit about what you were
01:51:58 candid and explicit about what you were expecting the role to involve yes yes as I as far as I understood it yeah and as far as you understood it what sort of things did you understand is it the things we've already uh discussed the the impact on your personal life the length of the deployment things of that
01:52:12 length of the deployment things of that nature yeah the biggest one the biggest one of all um was the length of time away
01:52:13 away um uh
01:52:17 um uh continuously do you mean week to week or month to month the length of time away yeah so she would be left without access to you for for Fairly lengthy periods of time potentially yeah
01:52:29 time potentially yeah yeah do you um remember how she responded upon being told about what the work would involve was she broadly um
01:52:43 work would involve was she broadly um supportive oh no I think more more than broadly um very sympathetic to my sort of Love of my profession um um she had her own uh busy uh profession as well um so was fully occupied with that but
01:52:55 um so was fully occupied with that but was more just supportive of sort of the commitment and interest and if feel like professional love of the career I've chosen i'
01:53:08 chosen i' chosen did you at any point discuss with her explicitly the fact that you would deploy as in your undercover identity a single
01:53:17 single man uh
01:53:20 man uh yes and what did you discuss uh in connection with that if anything um so nothing nothing
01:53:31 anything um so nothing nothing specifically um not least because that is exactly what I was doing um and I didn't really know anything about you know how things would um would would transpire but I did talk about the whole
01:53:43 transpire but I did talk about the whole premise of the operation was on building friendships and investing in time patiently being a different person for probably a far bigger part of my life uh than I was my real Persona any
01:53:55 than I was my real Persona any discussion with her about the risk that you might enter into a relationship with another woman in your undercover identity no any concern expressed by her about that as a
01:54:06 about that as a risk um if it was didn't mention it um the meeting at which your managers spoke to your partner were you present when that happened
01:54:19 when that happened yes the meeting you you mentioned your statement things like them providing her with emergency contact numbers so that she'd know who to contact was was
01:54:31 she'd know who to contact was was everything discussed of that sort of practical
01:54:32 practical nature or was there anything more pastoral discussed yeah the um the more pastal elements were um sort of the
01:54:44 pastal elements were um sort of the regular coming together um of the um of the squad um and their respective Partners um uh at least once a year um but also the um should they be required um more
01:54:56 um should they be required um more regular visits um but it was more that we are available 24 hours a day um don't hesitate to call and and then the other
01:55:08 hesitate to call and and then the other bit of the sort of paral care was um for those that wanted it or needed it or it suggested they took it was if you like a mentor or
01:55:22 mentor or a um an introduction to a the partner of another serving officer um and people develop those friendships naturally anyway through the social events but it was it was that type of package or discussion rather so could I just understand was an offer made explicitly
01:55:38 understand was an offer made explicitly to your partner that she could be put in contact with the partner or partners of other serving undercover officers for support it was mentioned as something that you know um was there um didn't suit everyone um and um but it was in
01:55:51 suit everyone um and um but it was in recognition it not suiting everyone that
01:55:59 recognition it not suiting everyone that was something and at the coming together at the sort of the annual sort of where we all met those sort of those natural pairings or groupings would would formulate anyway and I think you refer in your statement to there being a Christmas Christmas get together usually
01:56:13 Christmas Christmas get together usually is that what that was theual yes yes yes so once a year was it expected that you and your partner as an undercover officer would attend the Gathering or is it simply an invitation if you wish to take it out an expectation and was that an expectation because it was seen as part of the
01:56:26 because it was seen as part of the Pastoral Care that was on offer from the unit or for some other reason yeah um most people actually enjoyed it it was
01:56:37 most people actually enjoyed it it was um a lot of effort went into organizing it it was always somewhere nice um it was an opportunity you know sort of sometimes we'd have guests um share their appreciation but it was no it was um most people I think
01:56:49 um most people I think enjoyed um enjoyed the occasion I mean once a year it was yeah
01:56:58 was yeah uh not too much investment from anyone and guests I think you refer to for example more senior officers from special Branch or or outside of special special Branch might attend that Gathering yeah it was more likely to be from within the Met
01:57:09 from within the Met police
01:57:14 police yeah you say in your witness statement that you vaguely recall an interview um before joining the SDS but that it it wasn't the focus of the selection Pro process and that by the
01:57:26 selection Pro process and that by the time of the interview the SDS had done its due diligence on you and seemed already to have decided to take you on can I explore with you what you mean by due diligence do you mean they'd
01:57:39 by due diligence do you mean they'd spoken to your peers to your colleagues to try to find out information about you yeah the due diligence um I mean by the time you come to join special watch whoever you are that the sort of the standard due diligence and the the
01:57:56 standard due diligence and the the vetting is all been done so it's more on conduct Behavior suitability the way U people have seen you interact with others the quality of um uh your once written work the sort of Interest political curiosity that you've shown since
01:58:10 since joining um those sorts of I guess those sort of um those human um character observations um from people that have either done this work or managed their
01:58:21 either done this work or managed their unit your level of professionalism and integrity
01:58:22 integrity would have been of interest to them based on what you've uh said in your witness statement at earlier in evidence is that fair U no totally fair I mean that that was um those were I think um
01:58:37 that that was um those were I think um tenants values um of special Branch the organization um as a whole um it was a time when you there was quite a rigorous selection process to get into special
01:58:49 selection process to get into special Branch um from uh mainstream policing uh which tested these or certainly looked for these these types of values and but in terms of whether or not you had demonstrated those values or behaviors or were likely to continue to demonstrate them in an undercover role
01:59:06 demonstrate them in an undercover role the management appeared to be relying is this Fair on soundings on the opinions of those who had worked with you in special Branch rather than the interview process itself yes absolutely yeah yeah yeah it part of yeah that was a big part
01:59:20 yeah it part of yeah that was a big part of the big part of the jigel so so quite a lot of subjective opinion from those already in special branch with you as opposed to any form of objective testing or
01:59:30 or analysis um correct yeah um from people on Whose judgments you know had been relied upon for other things so and in your case one of those people is likely to have been Robert Lambert is that is that a fair assumption yesir given that he approached you
01:59:42 he approached you yeah you say in your witness statement that you didn't require much persuasion to join the SDS when you were approached and your words par paragraph 12 of your statement that SDS was an
01:59:57 12 of your statement that SDS was an Elite Squad within special branch and that there was a sense of prestige linked to the immense importance of the public service it provided um when you say the public service it
02:00:12 service it provided do you mean what you've already given evidence about it contribution in terms of Intelligence and Analysis in connection with public disorder public order issues um public order um acts of violent extremism terrorism um
02:00:24 violent extremism terrorism um prevention of serious attacks disorder economic damage yes absolutely yes that's what I mean yeah and why was that um why was it so prestigious in your
02:00:35 um why was it so prestigious in your view um I think it was well in my view and I say the work really wasn't for everyone um for very few actually even those that wanted to it
02:00:46 those that wanted to it was um deemed to be at the very heart of um cover policing um
02:00:59 policing um with work conducted by police officers themselves as opposed to the use of agents informance and um technical surveillance it was if you got this right um the value placed on it if you could get the right people to do it it was deemed to be the bit of special
02:01:15 was deemed to be the bit of special branch and policing in general uh but had access to the most valuable um Intelligence on which the you know the a huge Bounty was placed if you like um
02:01:26 huge Bounty was placed if you like um politically um on the value derived from from this unit and for those that thought they would be good at it um and I that was that was me um the others others will judge that um I wanted to be a part of
02:01:37 a part of it would it be fair to say that there was a sense that the SDS itself was a unit so somewhat apart from the rest of special Branch to an
02:01:51 special Branch to an extent um so it it sat structurally admin atively even legislatively um you know within the remit of special bch but absolutely it was that there was that um for covert
02:02:03 was that there was that um for covert purposes more than any um that sort of we we don't speak about it um it's hidden it's not part of any main build and you won't be able to get hold of it so yes in that sense it was a unit
02:02:20 so yes in that sense it was a unit within a unit within a unit but with its own sort of ecosystem and do you think that gave rise to a risk that once in the unit
02:02:22 the unit individuals associated with it perhaps regarded themselves as not necessarily Bound by the same rules or Norms as a regular police officer might consider themselves Bound by um no I
02:02:36 consider themselves Bound by um no I that that wasn't my view at all from colleagues I met um in a vast majority of cases it was the anchor and the Loyalty was to the organization and
02:02:48 Loyalty was to the organization and therefore you know all of the all of the same sets of rules um uh but everyone else um needed to abide by what there was though what there was and this was
02:03:00 was though what there was and this was factually true um a recognition that you know as soon as we start talking about
02:03:08 know as soon as we start talking about mainstream policing however hard that is whether in uniform or some of the other undercover units this was so radically different with its own unique set of challenges um and danger and sort of if like intrusions into one's own private life through the sacrifice made it was
02:03:20 life through the sacrifice made it was didn't really have much time culturally for anyone that equated that level of operation to the stresses and strains of The Wider policing organization but in terms of abiding by the same structure
02:03:34 terms of abiding by the same structure and being on the same payroll absolutely a total understanding that we were we were part of that that bigger organization but nonetheless as you say you considered yourselves radically different even from other aspects of undercover policing yeah and we
02:03:50 were when you say in your witness statement in your evidence today that you um felt yourself suited to the role why did you consider yourself suited to the role
02:04:00 role um I
02:04:02 um I was politically curious I was um believed in the work of the at the police I believed in the work of special Branch I believed I was good at building
02:04:16 Branch I believed I was good at building relationships I believed I would be able to conduct myself correctly not withstanding the huge pressures and challenges of so doing and I just thought I had a sort of um
02:04:27 um inner quirky ability to do this job well and did that come from anything that anybody else had said to you along the way during the selection process or
02:04:45 the way during the selection process or was that some a view that you formed by yourself uh well I had that view um on my own but it was it was what others observed too as my suitability for it or for the RO and did those others include Robert Lambert yes thank you I'm about to move to a
02:04:59 yes thank you I'm about to move to a slightly different topic and it's just after 12:15 uh we'll um rise now for until 12:30 I hope that's long enough and then
02:05:08 and then resum thank
02:05:20 you
02:21:49 e e
02:22:51 so I'm just noting the category H Team are not in the room if you want to wait for them I will wait and if not I will carry on uh let's carry on please hm1 I want to um move now to some questions about the time you spent in the back office before you deployed do
02:23:02 the back office before you deployed do you follow so joined the SDS preparing for deployment building up your Legend and topics of that nature yes we know from the documentation that you joined
02:23:18 from the documentation that you joined the SDS um on the 2nd of September 1991 and I think you agree that that that seems to be the right date is that right yes um and the documentation suggests
02:23:29 yes um and the documentation suggests that you deployed on the 13th of January of
02:23:31 of 1992 again does that Accord with your recollection it does so that would have given you around about four months or just in excess of four months in the back office if those dates are correct
02:23:43 back office if those dates are correct does that sound about right sounds about right yes how confident are you that you didn't deploy and by which I mean didn't go out into the world in your in your undercover identity before January of
02:24:04 1992 um pretty confident um so for I asked that question so that it's clear to you because um Paul grait has given evidence that he is confident that he saw you in attendance at the inaugural
02:24:18 saw you in attendance at the inaugural meeting of the London boots Action Group which was in fact in November of 199 1 is it possible that you attended that meeting
02:24:33 meeting before you officially deployed with your official start date yeah it is it is I think I think actually I think Paul's right on that it was um yeah an opportunity to do just that but or be it a little bit premature he also recalled you um putting down your name on a list when a
02:24:49 putting down your name on a list when a list went round of of people interested essentially in the group and putting that you were Matt from Salsbury does that ring any bells
02:25:04 Salsbury does that ring any bells yes and again he recalls seeing you at a stall uh in December of 1991 at a stall at an event in brickton does that ring any bells with you attending an event in Brixton in December of 1991 so again before your
02:25:16 December of 1991 so again before your official start date um it doesn't but I'm not denying it
02:25:24 but nonetheless the record show as it were an official start date for your deployment of the 13th of January 1992 but it appears then certainly for the inaugural meeting of London boots action group that you may have gone out
02:25:35 action group that you may have gone out in your cover identity before that date is that a fair summary yes yes you say in your witness statement that hn 67 the detective inspector and hn 86 the
02:25:46 detective inspector and hn 86 the detective Chief Inspector wanted you deployed very early that's from paragraph 72 of your witness statement it's page 31 we can get it up if you want to refresh your memory just let me
02:25:58 want to refresh your memory just let me know if you do I I do recall that thank you and did did they did you get that impression because they said it to you explicitly that they wanted you to deploy early on after you joined the unit or was it
02:26:09 unit or was it more implicit in the things that were being said and done um I think it was more explicit and implicit um I think in response to um
02:26:24 response to um possibly a a sort of a landing Point um sort of the lond boot Action Group for example but I'm an eagerness to I just yeah um get on with it as soon as
02:26:36 yeah um get on with it as soon as possible and when you refer to a landing point do you mean to say that London boots action group was being set up when you were in the back office and it
02:26:48 you were in the back office and it seemed um in a sense fortuitous because you could involve yourself in this new group being set up um as part of your cover yeah it was um it was it was part of um the group that I would eventually be targeted into but it was it was a publicly
02:26:59 publicly announced um uh campaigning group uh which um seemed you a good opportunity
02:27:14 which um seemed you a good opportunity to to turn up at the relevance it be of it being public is that you could turn up without any suspicion yes indeed yes when you deployed it's you had not had you completed setting up all the aspects of your cover identity for your for example
02:27:32 your cover identity for your for example you didn't have any accommodation set up did you no were hn 67 and hn 86 aware that you hadn't completed all those steps in setting up a cover identity by the time you deployed yes and they wanted you to deploy nonetheless correct did you discuss that directly with
02:27:49 did you discuss that directly with them um I sort of trusted their judgment um that
02:27:51 um that I could sort of get away with it um and deal with that aspect of it um as as part of the
02:28:05 as part of the landing but there was a sense was there that you were being asked to get away with something with a with a sort of imperfect situation yeah it was imperfect and I remember my colleagues
02:28:16 imperfect and I remember my colleagues commenting um on the not ideal start yes you say in your witness statement I think your words are that other undercover officers took a dim view of your premat mature placement when the issue came up at the safe house
02:28:28 issue came up at the safe house meetings yes um how did it come up at meetings was that part of a general discussion or one-on-one discussions with you and particular officers um I think it was part of a general conversation sort of um me
02:28:43 a general conversation sort of um me being presented to the group if you like um and um got to know each other while I've been in the back office over more sort of General sitting in this um uh General sort of sitting room in a block of flats cup of tea um And
02:28:57 of flats cup of tea um And discussing um you know what my prep was looking like um what i' started doing and it was um yes so I think the lack of that sort of um the accommodation aspect of it um and sort of being asked to sort that out once deployed was was viewed as
02:29:13 that out once deployed was was viewed as something I shouldn't have been asked to do was that a view expressed to you by particular individuals um it was a general feeling um you know no one no one else had um sort of taken that sort of uh absence of their prep prior to sort
02:29:30 uh absence of their prep prior to sort of you know deploying on day one so it was seen as a deployment without adequate preparation in ADV that particular aspect it was that seems a bit unfair you know why um you what's uh what's what's the rush um I didn't
02:29:43 what's what's the rush um I didn't question it myself I it seemed okay um you go to the stage and find a flat um you You' got plenty of time during the day to do that sort of thing um I was
02:29:57 day to do that sort of thing um I was eager to start I remember that um but uh yeah with hindsight um and very shortly afterwards actually I I wish I'd listen to colleagues on that one well at the time when they
02:30:12 the time when they said negative things about it you didn't really see their point of view but you do now um yeah I mean it wasn't a For Heaven's Sake don't do it um it was um well you know what are you going to say when you know you ask where you live and
02:30:23 when you know you ask where you live and uh because it's quite nice to be able to do that other than then the sort of General World nobody ask you where you live on your first meeting other you north or south or east or west London so it was a sort of winging of it if you like but I it was a part of the prep
02:30:38 like but I it was a part of the prep which um was to my recollection and and and at the time substandard did you feel looking back or sorry did you feel at the time or do you feel looking back that it put you at greater risk as an individual officer
02:30:50 greater risk as an individual officer than if you had been given time to find cover accommodation in advance I I felt um it wasn't I wasn't as sharp as I could have been um intellectually in having an
02:31:03 been um intellectually in having an address to be able to quote even if just geographically so there was um an element of obfuscation when even uh a straightforward question like that was asked and thinking you know um why would I be like that from
02:31:15 know um why would I be like that from the outset it was it was um as you can see it's something that I I do remember being a bit of a new um but work through it um and then the rest as they say is history within a couple of months I had
02:31:29 couple of months I had somewhere the documents um that you were shown when you gave your witness statement suggest that the first contract you had for a cover flat started in May of 1992 so four four or
02:31:42 started in May of 1992 so four four or five months after you started to go out into the field does that sound about right that you were four or five months without a cover address um yes I had um um there's one address I
02:31:53 yes I had um um there's one address I had which of my vehicles was registered to which was which was checkable um but um you're right yes the proper address that was visitable and checkable um was for
02:32:07 for me during that period so from December 1991 or January 1992 um until you got that cover flat
02:32:18 1992 um until you got that cover flat does it follow that you must have been going home to your real address your real life home after deploying during the day
02:32:28 day yes was it ever suggested to you by um either hn 86 or hn 67 that you should take Extra Care in doing that because there was a TV or a
02:32:39 doing that because there was a TV or a film crew around making a program about animal rights activism and there was a concern that you might be followed um so it wasn't there was no mention of that specific um TV crew but the generic um ad device and sort of drilling into
02:32:55 ad device and sort of drilling into everyone I mean I'm sure people could have got there on their own is that separation and good trade craft uh between one's sort of cover setup and and your wheel address but no specific warning to take even more precautions
02:33:09 warning to take even more precautions because there was an extra risk floating about in the form of a some sort of TV or film crew poking their noses in no I don't remember the TV film crew advis but to be honest on that one it wouldn't have added to the you couldn't have gone any further and then keep the two lives
02:33:23 any further and then keep the two lives separate and next you know and adopt the highest levels of tcraft in that aspect right so had you received that advice it wouldn't have caused you to take different steps for example to seek to
02:33:42 different steps for example to seek to stay at the address of an activist that you had met in the field no goad you refer in your statement um to uh a ending up with a nickname um chisik and was that a result of in part the lack of a cover address and and having to come up with a location to
02:33:56 having to come up with a location to associate yourself with yeah I know it was in response to no where have you come from today um and chisik um and sort of a particular a sort of a character um then called me chisik
02:34:10 character um then called me chisik thereafter and others adopted it so that was something you just made up on the spot not something you'd planned with your managers or anything like that correct U well I had actually come from chisik so um it's where I one of the
02:34:25 chisik so um it's where I one of the safe houses was generically um but in a hidden in a big block of flat so um it wasn't planned no because there was nothing to plan for other than a generic area can we just have it on the screen
02:34:41 area can we just have it on the screen please I just want to show you a record um hm1 that that was found within the SDS um offices records MPS 0726 991 it's your b11 sir
02:34:49 [Music]
02:34:56 thank you and this is a record that the inquiry um obtained amongst other records that appear to have been filed in the SDS office to follow
02:35:12 in the SDS office to follow hm1 and it contains um your operational details that's how it's headed um and under name which is your cover name it it includes known as k/ a known as chisik brackets in sabb circles closed
02:35:27 chisik brackets in sabb circles closed brackets yes was it a name that you were known by only in um hunt sabbin circles yes and did did you does it
02:35:42 circles yes and did did you does it follow from its appearance here that at some point you informed your managers that you had um used that nickname with hun sabur um yes I mean I would have informed they' they have become aware um
02:35:55 informed they' they have become aware um yeah if you didn't inform them how would they have become aware what are you suggesting um so so um through others um so the other line of intelligence Gatherings was through informants um so other
02:36:13 informants um so other people information referring to me being present um as as chisik all right so broadly they might have seen other intelligence about someone being given the name chisik floating around yes
02:36:27 indeed can I move on from that please and ask you some questions about the nature of the meetings in the safe houses that you attended whilst you were in the back office but also then on
02:36:38 in the back office but also then on through your deployment yes so in your witness statement I think you say paragraph 22 that you went to all of the safe house meetings and you listen to people talking about their work and challenges before you were deployed is
02:36:51 challenges before you were deployed is that is that right that's yes absolutely can I ask you about the structure o of the meetings that you attended thinking first of all to the time that you were in the back office and then you can tell
02:37:07 in the back office and then you can tell us if it ever changed was it expected as far as you knew at that stage that all of the deployed officers would attend those meetings if they could yes and do you recall seeing a sizable group at every meeting that you went to so people were making the effort to attend yes was there a set
02:37:26 to attend yes was there a set um pattern to what happened at the safe house yes and I think in your witness statement you refer to a a sort of Parish news from the managers yes when you say Parish news do you mean news from special Branch or do you mean news about the SDS or possibly both um
02:37:41 about the SDS or possibly both um possibly both whatever sort of was going to grab people's attention that the bosses thought we needed to know about and that would be How We Kick the meeting off but mes include things about
02:37:52 meeting off but mes include things about other SDS officers or was it was it more to do with regulations guidance can you give us a flavor um yeah so it would um so this was so the meetings were quite um you not everyone wanted to be there
02:38:05 um you not everyone wanted to be there but there was a recognition they needed to be so tension spans you know were sometimes limited so it would the parish briefing would need to be relevant with
02:38:16 briefing would need to be relevant with news of Interest so some you know either thanks for what we've done or an interesting event or some big events coming up that we need to be sort of working
02:38:27 working towards that that was 5 minutes worth um then the rest of the meeting was going around the room uh with each officer giving the headlines of what they've been doing since we last met and the headlines of what everyone needed to
02:38:38 headlines of what everyone needed to know coming up in the immediate future um and that was accompanied by each officer had their sort of if you like aache case brought out by me the t- boy where they have
02:38:53 where they have taskings administrative matters to deal with which they would deal with in the meeting room back in those bags um i' scoop them up in a suitcase we go back put them in the car back to the back to the office right thank you can I just explore a couple of points on that a
02:39:10 explore a couple of points on that a little more when you say each officer gave um headlines of what they were doing can you um explain was that in terms of what events they were attending was that the sort of thing yeah so it could be key
02:39:25 sort of thing yeah so it could be key events um that we'd heard about the week before so how did that event go um what happened it could be about key individuals um and um more importantly it was about what's coming up um that these officers would either have knowledge of and or be part
02:39:41 of and was that shared so obviously in the meeting I won't ask you for detail but in the meeting if there would have been officers who were deployed into different fields so not everybody was and animal rights into an within an
02:39:55 and animal rights into an within an animal rights group sorry were they does that mean that you were hearing about deployments not just in the animal rights field but also in the other fields into which SDS officers were deployed yeah and that that was in part you know the reason for these meetings um um
02:40:10 um um share um hear about the challenges bit of collective problem solving bit of sort of mentoring Collective welfare but also just um better understanding what we're all doing um across the remit of the whole of the SDS um and then you know where stuff needed
02:40:26 um and then you know where stuff needed to take place in private with the bosses there'd be onet to ones as part of the part of those uh twice weekly Gatherings when you say um problem
02:40:37 Gatherings when you say um problem solving do you mean that officers would come with and explain challenges that they were having in their deployment sometimes and seek guidance from others yeah yeah um some of that would be an
02:40:49 yeah yeah um some of that would be an open court um around the fireplace some of it would be between sort of gather Rings between officers that sort of gravitated towards each other um in smaller circles right so it doesn't follow that if for example you raised a particular difficulty every other undercover officer would necessarily
02:41:01 undercover officer would necessarily have been party to that you might have shared it just with a small number there would be both those scenarios would play out so the officer would decide what they wanted to share in general and what they needed to talk specifically to specific people
02:41:14 specific people about and sometimes that would take place in a oneto one with the managers I think you mentioned yeah I mean so often the reason for that
02:41:26 yeah I mean so often the reason for that would be where there were sort of if you like opposing groups being represented that were like to sort of clash um and the officers within those um uh Fields would need to discuss with the
02:41:39 would need to discuss with the management you know without others being in the room um the more sort of sensitive and pertinent to their operations uh detail did you have oneto ones with managers in the side rooms
02:41:52 ones with managers in the side rooms I did I did once deployed yes and how frequently do you estimate that that happened um well not that often I didn't I didn't often see personally the need
02:42:07 I didn't often see personally the need for it um I was quite happy to talk yeah um openly to the degree that anyone was interested beyond their own operations um are you able to say when you did Avail yourself of a onetoone
02:42:19 you did Avail yourself of a onetoone meeting about what sort of topic did you seek to speak to management one-onone um so it would be and and quite often when once I was out in the field it wouldn't be to wait for that meeting it would be to arrange probably a one to one outside of that sort of
02:42:34 a one to one outside of that sort of more General general setting but anyway in terms of what it would be about it could be about um um low-level criminality um it could be reporting on individuals um in which there was a
02:42:47 individuals um in which there was a potential threat to the Target um of of of a demonstration we just needed to risk ass the degree to which that person needed to be um informed it it was normally something specific as to how we were going to handle um uh the intelligence
02:43:03 handle um uh the intelligence dissemination related to me being privy to it but not others and when you referred to low-level criminality did you mean to refer to whether or not you should involve yourself in low-level criminality so it was either rarely in
02:43:17 criminality so it was either rarely in response to some low-level criminality that I'd been present at um um and I think we'll come on to it um a court
02:43:24 a court appearance um and the circumstances under which i' been asked um to be a witness because I was at the same event so those sorts of things would be separate meetings one to one not
02:43:36 separate meetings one to one not necessarily wait for one of the two weekly
02:43:37 weekly meetings why would you seek out a onetoone if you had been present at an event at which there was lowlevel criminality that that was a pretty regular occurrence for you wasn't it
02:43:54 regular occurrence for you wasn't it it wasn't a regular occurrence no no for you to have been present when lowlevel criminality occurred yeah that wasn't that wasn't a regular occurence for me it was rare it was rare yeah and are you saying that you spoke to your managers after the event when you had been
02:44:11 after the event when you had been present um yes or on rare occasions um this is this this is a possibility of what's going to happen at this event um because of the nature of um the individual
02:44:22 individual there and their propensity for for sort of
02:44:22 of spontaneous um action I just want to focus on your evidence earlier that you might have had a onetoone if you had been present at an event where low-level criminality had taken
02:44:33 criminality had taken place why would that necessitate a onetoone or make it desirable well it it it might not it might easily be able to wait I was just giving that as an example most most of the um um the
02:44:45 example most most of the um um the office you know prided itself as um in offering if you like a level of um sort of onetoone Engagement where you could talk through and this was one's only
02:44:56 talk through and this was one's only means of talking to any anyone about anything was that trusted environment um of the office bosses with what you were doing out there and what you were
02:45:11 doing out there and what you were surrounded by was going on but what I'm trying to understand hm1 is is why if you've been present at an event with lowlevel criminality wouldn't you just write that down and put it in an intelligence report I well I did that yeah I mean
02:45:22 report I well I did that yeah I mean maybe I've used the wrong example I mean it I'm making it sound far more formal and dramatic than it was I mean it was just a um you the onetoone engagement was um a part of what the office enjoyed
02:45:36 was um a part of what the office enjoyed doing um because it was a better quality conversation where they could devote more time to the complexity of your
02:45:49 operations when at the safe house meetings people had oneto ones was it obvious to the rest of the group in terms of the layout of the safe house was it obvious that oh X is going off to have a one to one with the manager yeah yeah I know these were tiny sort of two-bedroom uh places
02:46:08 yeah all right just going back please to the safe house meetings in general and their structure you say in the in your witness
02:46:17 witness statement um that they would last all of the afternoon uh did they end up in the pub and if so how
02:46:24 how frequently um so the the pub was um an option um most people actually wanted to
02:46:37 option um most people actually wanted to just you know leave and get back to what they were doing um but there was always the option if people wanted it for you know a social um sort of continuation of a
02:46:51 a discussion and are you able to give any idea of how uh how many officers might ordinarily attend the pub after a meeting would it be the majority the minority um it was definitely the minority the the core constituents really were um when I was in the back
02:47:03 really were um when I was in the back office me as the the t- boy um was there whether I liked it or not yeah please be careful with with names or any descriptors based on an area of
02:47:16 descriptors based on an area of deployment before you continue sure sure thank you um and the office the office staff um uh but it was a on a regular basis who would Avail themselves of the pub option so by office staff do you mean the detective sergeants from from
02:47:28 mean the detective sergeants from from the back office the detective sergeants the detective inspector and the detective Chief Inspector all right so so they would commonly attend the pub after the meeting yeah what what sort of
02:47:39 after the meeting yeah what what sort of proportion of the undercover officers in your experience would ordinarily go to the pub um so in my time I was only a regular Pub in that setting when I was in the back office um I know two or three
02:47:49 three um but quite often for for not that long
02:48:00 um but quite often for for not that long either what was the atmosphere like when you did go to the pub for example how much was being how much alcohol was being
02:48:02 being drunk um well it didn't last that long quite often so not that much um it was a convivial setting um people felt safe there um it was a nice continuation end
02:48:16 there um it was a nice continuation end of day um of of of the meeting for those that wanted it but I say most people were Keen just to get back to um their their sort of cover existences and many people didn't come at all and when you
02:48:30 people didn't come at all and when you say um not much was drunk because people have different ideas of what a lot and not a lot of alcohol is could you give us an idea in terms of pints of beer how much not much would be um well I don't
02:48:41 much not much would be um well I don't remember anything from my recollection more than two pints and um and very often sort of less than that even
02:48:51 even were were the two or when you say two or three typically two or three undercover officers might go was it always the same characters going along or did it vary no it did vary um did vary
02:49:12 yeah just going back to the meetings themselves um and the the nature of um what was
02:49:16 what was discussed um you mentioned before when you were answering my questions that perhaps not everybody uh seemed to want to be at the meetings although they accepted the need for being there um in your witness statement you said at
02:49:30 your witness statement you said at paragraph 86 that everyone was genuinely interested to hear what others had to say do you remember saying that in your witness statement yes I do well and is that the impression that you
02:49:41 that the impression that you got yeah that is the general impression that is a general impression
02:49:50 y um I note the time I'm not going to be able to finish this section within a within a few minutes so I wonder whether we should take the lunch break now and I'll come back to it at 2 so yet and we'll rise now and resume at
02:50:17 two
02:50:47 e e