Afternoon session examining HN1 'Matt Rayner's deployment practices, including use of 'attractive' descriptors in intelligence reports about women activists, adoption of deceased child's identity without family consideration, guidance on low-level criminality, and extensive questioning about inappropriate personal details in reports including romantic relationships and activists' private lives.
00:00:05 and hm1 the cover to the report itself we've ciphered it with your Cipher hm1 but it bore an identifier in its original form that was associated with you an identifier given to you by
00:00:20 with you an identifier given to you by the security service do you follow yes and unique uh to you and if we look please at the body of the
00:00:30 report and we've redacted the name and other identifying details for um privacy um but we see um it's about someone who is described as an enthusiastic and effective if unlikely
00:00:42 enthusiastic and effective if unlikely animal rights activist who supports Al style uh actions she regularly attends demonstrations against branches of boots etc
00:00:55 etc etc under pecul I think that's what PEC stands for does it not um yes I think so yes what is recorded is attractive well-dressed and well
00:01:05 well spoken why would you have included the descriptor attractive in an intelligence report um well look I accept that that's
00:01:17 report um well look I accept that that's a very subjective comment but then there were
00:01:23 were um yeah there's a conventional sort of definition of attractiveness um um in a crowd of others that would have made a stand out um in a way that people would have understood what that meant um that's
00:01:37 understood what that meant um that's wife with that um there was a sort of conventionality and not sort of conforming if you like to a a dress style um associated with what many
00:01:49 style um associated with what many people adopted on um events such as these right that that's what well dressed means isn't it that's the dress style the comment attractive is on her physical appearance isn't it um yes um and I I met Nothing by it other than
00:02:01 and I I met Nothing by it other than most people um there's a big sthe of generically AC accepted attractiveness which most people would agree on and my judgment was she fell into that category as something that distinguished her um
00:02:14 as something that distinguished her um when trying to identify her for example in a demonstration or from photos at the outset of your answer to me you accepted that it's a subjective evaluation it is subjective isn't it
00:02:27 evaluation it is subjective isn't it it's not going to help somebody else to identify someone yes yes um absolutely um but there is um there's normally a a sort
00:02:39 sort of uh a look which most people if didn't find it attractive in their own right would
00:02:42 would accept you know anyone would understand what they meant by attractive that's that's all I meant by that I could if you if you wish to I will take you there are three other examples in your reporting 1994 1995 and
00:03:01 reporting 1994 1995 and 1996 in which you described the subject of the report as attractive so it's a term that you seem to have used throughout your deployment and in each of those examples the subject of the report is a woman the descriptor is not applied to any men is
00:03:16 descriptor is not applied to any men is that because it was common in the SDS to consider the attractiveness only of the women who were being reported on and not the
00:03:27 the men um that wasn't how I viewed it no it was my way of describing someone I I admit it's subjective it was your way of describing women but not of describing men on the face of your reporting do you accept that um I do and I might have used other
00:03:39 do and I might have used other descriptors for men if I wanted to convey something similar should we take the use of that word being applied only to women and not to men as an indication of how women were spoken about by SDS
00:03:50 were spoken about by SDS officers um no I don't think we should um I think we should just concentrate on how how I intended it to be taken
00:04:01 how how I intended it to be taken right was it your experience that that was the sort of descriptor commonly applied to women by SDS officers whilst you were in the
00:04:13 you were in the SDS uh no I don't remember seeing anyone else use that as a descriptor did you hear anyone else talking about the attractiveness attractive or otherwise of women on who whom they were reporting
00:04:25 no was there any mention during the safe house meetings of past deployments and problems or issues that had cropped up for the officers
00:04:35 deployed
00:04:42 um well I don't have a specific example but I I I can I can ask you about some specific examples all right no thank you yeah excuse me did you ever hear talk of an officer by the name of Rick or
00:05:01 an officer by the name of Rick or Richard Clark having been presented with his own death certificate in his cover identity sometime in the 1970s um
00:05:02 um vaguely when you say vaguely did you hear that an officer had been presented with their own death certificate um yeah it was one of those sort of um if you like bits of folklore
00:05:14 sort of um if you like bits of folklore from what people had gone through as uh assuming something quite traumatic um I remember it being spoken about as in that context yeah yeah yeah sort of
00:05:28 that context yeah yeah yeah sort of significant parts of how people were confronted I'm going to come on to ask you in more detail about your choice of a cover identity which involved the use of a deceased child's
00:05:39 deceased child's identity can I ask you at this point when you were choosing your identity
00:05:52 when you were choosing your identity using that method did knowing that some former officer had been presented with their own death certificate cause you any uh concern or or pause for thought I don't remember knowing it at that time
00:06:11 so you recall finding out about it later yes and that was at a safe house meeting or just in general conversation can you help us um I think at one of the safe house meetings yeah that's and then and then and then I I remember it being you know one of the you one of the sort of if you like sort
00:06:29 sort of if you like sort of in the history of the unit this been uh you know one of the key uh sort of dramatic moments of what others have gone through did you hear talk at the safe house meetings of hn 67 then the detective inspector of the unit having uh had uh
00:06:43 inspector of the unit having uh had uh sex with an activist whilst he himself was deployed undercover I don't recall that that being spoken about when I was on the
00:07:01 being spoken about when I was on the squad any um allegation that you heard about that he might have fathered a child through that relationship no at that time or subsequently um well subsequently as part of this inquiry and what has surfaced yes but not at the time or or or even close to
00:07:14 not at the time or or or even close to any discussion at Safe House meetings or amongst officers that Robert Lambert had fathered a child during his undercover deployment not during my time on the squad subsequent to your time on the
00:07:27 squad subsequent to your time on the squad otherwise than in connection with this
00:07:27 this inquiry um definitely um in connection with this inquiry and before that um I don't recall paying any attention to
00:07:41 don't recall paying any attention to it I'm not asking you whether you paid attention to it I'm asking you if you heard any suggestion that he had fathered a child um no um I I don't recall um hearing that I was um you know
00:07:56 recall um hearing that I was um you know conscious decision on my part to sort of Stay Well clear of any of what others were going through and this sort of stuff so that's why I don't recall here anything about it but it wasn't spoken about in the safe house meetings for example no no not in my time there no any discussion at all about Robert
00:08:09 any discussion at all about Robert Lambert having sexual relationships with women in his undercover identity not during my time on the squad any talk about him uh potentially being involved in planting iids in deham stores in
00:08:21 in planting iids in deham stores in 1987 um no I don't recall that being spoken about on the squad when I was say I'm going to ask you some um careful questions about an officer that this
00:08:38 questions about an officer that this inquiry knows um by the cipher hn4 can you please check the cipher list but don't say the name
00:08:40 name yes this officer was deployed in the late 1980s and early 1990s that's what I can say about the era of his
00:08:54 era of his deployment and he was arrested for drink driving in his cover identity and disclosed his real identity to the arresting
00:09:03 arresting police is that something you heard about whilst you were on the SDS um not with that degree of detail um it was kept pretty tight I was aware
00:09:14 it was kept pretty tight I was aware that something had happened to him um and it was causing a good deal of awkwardness were you aware separately that he had been arrested in his cover identity for a minor public order
00:09:29 identity for a minor public order offense and again disclosed his real identity to the arresting officer leading to his withdrawal um not at the time
00:09:38 no I wasn't particularly close to him uh we didn't have much of a relationship even even during the meetings in terms of um the officers that you did have
00:09:51 um the officers that you did have particular contact with and I'm thinking in terms of mentoring I would like to ask you about those officers please and can we have up on the screen MPS 0527
00:10:02 231 it's your
00:10:13 b126 hm1 this is a document dated in December
00:10:18 December 1994 headed SDS Mentor scheme do you see that on the screen in front of you yes um and uh about 23 um of the way down of a list of mentors
00:10:33 and again I'm going to ask you some closed questions about this but it says that hn 83 was mentor to you and another having taken over the former responsibility that is your mentoring
00:10:47 responsibility that is your mentoring from uh detective inspector Lambert SL retired detective Sergeant dyes firstly do you recall being mentored by first by Robert Lambert and then by John dyes
00:10:59 then by John dyes um yes um in the sort of loosest sense of the word mentoring and why do you say the loosest sense I think because there was no um
00:11:11 sense I think because there was no um there was no formal mentoring scheme in perhaps a way we would understand it now um it was a an an informal
00:11:24 um it was a an an informal Arrangement um but with sort of someone identified as being a point of contact UM to discuss welfar and operational issues and how much contact did you have with Robert Lambert in that
00:11:43 with Robert Lambert in that role um well it was sort of intertwined really with his um being one of the office
00:11:44 office managers um and there was no I mean there wasn't necessarily a separation of powers there um but he would be someone for example I
00:11:56 um but he would be someone for example I might have a onetoone meeting with um in that in that role not necessarily as Mentor but it might have Incorporated
00:12:07 mentoring and the nature of the discussions you had with Robert lamber did they ever con uh include discussion um before you entered into a relationship with Miss Fuller about the topic of sexual relationships
00:12:23 topic of sexual relationships no uh John dyes how close were you to John dyes in a mentoring
00:12:32 capacity I'm very early on um more sort of as part of my preparation and learning about the nature of the role um would would speak to him regularly um
00:12:46 would would speak to him regularly um once on the squad um not so much um even during the time we overlapped so in the early days you overla for a very short period of time I think didn't you he was out of the field soon after you were
00:12:59 out of the field soon after you were in um what sort of things did you speak to John dyes about in connection with your deployment did you speak about individuals who you might expect to find when you deployed into the field no it was more the it was more the sort of philosophical stuff um um about
00:13:15 philosophical stuff um um about how how one presented oneself what one's message was um what um The
00:13:20 um The Branding um the the lifestyle that you would want to be associated with as far as others were concerned about your whole style of approach
00:13:36 style of approach platform um the type of person you would want to sort of if you like manufacture yourself as did any of that advice extend to how you should approach the question of relationships of any kind
00:13:47 question of relationships of any kind with women whilst you were deployed no not specifically with women um uh but the generic um patience and relationship building um to gain credibility and Trust was um
00:13:59 Trust was um he of course a big part of it any suggestion from him to you that you might find yourself entering a sexual or intimate
00:14:10 entering a sexual or intimate relationship with a woman whilst deployed no did he tell you that he was himself in a relationship with Helen steel no he didn't he never spoke about that did you hear it from any other source than John
00:14:22 source than John dyes um well it was again as part of the inquiry and um almost s of the public the publicity around that
00:14:36 the public the publicity around that relationship um I can't remember exactly when but sort of everyone I mean the world got to know about it in a way yes I'm I'm asking you specifically about your time on the SDS or thereafter in
00:14:47 your time on the SDS or thereafter in your professional um life as a police officer did you hear about any suggestion that John dyes had had a relationship an intimate and sexual relationship with Helen steel not an
00:14:58 relationship with Helen steel not an intimate sexual one though I knew they were close did you hear that by 1995 so whilst you were still with the SDS Helen steel was making efforts to track down the man she
00:15:14 making efforts to track down the man she knew as John Barker by visiting his real life parents address in London did you hear about that um yes but I can't remember when um might have been generic it might have been generic
00:15:26 been generic briefings um what does generic briefings mean um well within the squad um uh one one of those meetings um as what was going on to a former colleague
00:15:38 what was going on to a former colleague um and the attempt to track him down so the the whole of the squad as it were might have been told that attempts were being made to track down one of the former undercover officers is that I don't I don't remember the set piece
00:15:53 don't I don't remember the set piece where the whole of the squad got to know about it um but it I got to know about it through a conversation at one of those meetings um either one of the twice weekly meetings or in a oneto one with one of the bosses who who imparted
00:16:08 with one of the bosses who who imparted that information to you um I be careful with names sorry yeah no sure um I I really can't remember it was most it was likely to have been um uh Bob Lambert um but it could have been um I'm just looking for the side bit here um hn
00:16:31 86 I'm going to ask that we put up on screen a document MPS 0720
00:16:33 0720 836
00:16:49 please and just so that you can orientate yourself hm1 this is a note headed threat to SDS operational security ref retired detective Sergeant John dyes briefing note two and it's dated Friday the 29th of SE September of 1995 and if we would turn to the end we
00:17:04 1995 and if we would turn to the end we would see that its author on its face is Robert Lambert detective inspector Lambert as he was of the SDS I want to ask you please um thank you I want to ask you please about something on page two points 5A and
00:17:25 six um what Robert Lambert appears to have proposed here in this note is that approval should be sought for what he refers to as two compliment
00:17:36 what he refers to as two compliment approaches and this is in response to Helen Steel's attempts to track down John dyes a the tasking of a current SDS operative to obtain relevant
00:17:49 information and then six action at 5A consisted no more than a well-placed officer returning from annual leave on Monday 2nd of October assessing the situation in accordance with SDS best practice the office is an associate of
00:18:02 practice the office is an associate of Steel and would be likely to hear if she had successfully uncovered an Al
00:18:09 infiltrator were you asked to take steps to keep an eye out particularly in relation to Helen steel and to see whether she had successfully uncovered uh John D
00:18:24 uh John D no were you aware of um any other officer for example um Andrew koh's being t lost with that no wasn't aware of it given that a member of
00:18:43 it given that a member of um the circles if I can put it that way broadly the circles of activists with whom you were associating was during the course of your deployment attempting to uncover a former SDS officer would you have expected to be
00:18:57 officer would you have expected to be told about this if for no other reason than for your own welfare
00:19:02 possibly um if it was of direct relevance um well if Helen steel had uncovered in 1995 that John dyes was an undercover
00:19:16 1995 that John dyes was an undercover police officer that might heighten the risk of you being um suspected or identified as an undercover officer might it um I I um operated every day um with um a suspicion that
00:19:32 with um a suspicion that well I knew about the suspicion um that I was an undercover officer and live with it every day um I had no connection with Helen steel Helen steel and John D's um if you like um partnership was unique to the two of
00:19:48 partnership was unique to the two of them um and I would have had no role in that tasking because I not least I wouldn't have got anywhere and it it wouldn't have added to what I needed to be aware of um in terms of what others sought to do I live with that sort of
00:20:01 sought to do I live with that sort of threat and realization that there were probably TR people trying to do that every minute of every day but but this was your manager detective inspector Lambert with concrete evidence that someone who had been
00:20:14 evidence that someone who had been reported on in connection with animal rights activity by one of your predecessors was making was taking steps to identify him that that would have heightened the risk to you wouldn't it
00:20:28 heightened the risk to you wouldn't it um beyond the normal level I I don't how it could have heightened the risk I think that's that's the only point I'm making it would have been yeah I would have been sort of um
00:20:41 have been sort of um been obviously interest to know that was happening um it would have confirmed uh what I probably thought was the case
00:20:53 what I probably thought was the case anyway um in my mind it wouldn't have heightened already um high risk that this was going on anyway in my mind which is I say a living with daily phenomenon and in terms of your knowledge of Helen Steel at the time that you were deployed the M liel
00:21:07 that you were deployed the M liel litigation as it came to be known was ongoing wasn't it yes and that was spoken about amongst the activist circles in which you mixed for example at London boots action group meetings it
00:21:19 at London boots action group meetings it came up so you were aware of Helen still weren't you oh yeah she was a very very prominent figure and you were even if not directly if I put it in uh quotation marks friends with Helen Steel in your
00:21:32 marks friends with Helen Steel in your recover identity she was friends with or an associate of people with whom you were mixing like Paul grait wasn't she yes so when you say uh that that Helen still wasn't really anything much to do with you that that's not quite right is
00:21:47 with you that that's not quite right is it um well in terms of um her having any time for um you know for a relationship friendship um of probing questions um I was no more than just another person in the audience for
00:21:59 the audience for but if she had found out that John Barker as she knew him was in fact an undercover police officer that's the sort of thing you might have heard about isn't
00:22:08 isn't it as Matt rer um well not from her um but maybe from
00:22:18 from others well on the on the squad um but this was going on sort of so you know the Rob Lambert um memo you just brought up I was asking whether you would not have found out from other activists with
00:22:29 have found out from other activists with whom you were mixing at the time time if someone had been uncovered um as to use the the uh colloquial term as a police
00:22:41 colloquial term as a police spy um so there was a there was a lot of that language floating around um often it was wrong um and some of the advice was don't talk about this stuff until it's you know a proven case um so you
00:22:52 it's you know a proven case um so you almost sort of lived with that sort of daily narrative um of people's suspicions of police spies undercover police officers um everyone being followed I was not a part of um Helen Circle I would would not have even
00:23:08 Circle I would would not have even manufactured and any external interest in her so I doubt anyone I don't remember being told but I don't know why anyone would have told me about that sort of stuff so the extent of your
00:23:19 sort of stuff so the extent of your knowledge appears to be um probably at a meeting possibly at a Ono one you were told that Helen steel was making efforts
00:23:35 told that Helen steel was making efforts to track down John dyes yes that's how I did you um or were you told uh why it was believed she was making those efforts
00:23:37 efforts um I don't me if I was told why I me I could understand why they were um they had a very close friendship um they worked together on a very prominent campaign so so you understood that they had a very close
00:23:50 had a very close friendship yes and where did you get that understanding from um the the way people used to talk
00:24:03 from um the the way people used to talk about them um um which people um well so um people in the movement people associated with and that overlap between the mlal campaign um and the you know the groups of people that I was more
00:24:15 the groups of people that I was more associated with um and then it became a very public campaign um so I I don't remember paying any attention to it I I I really don't um or
00:24:26 attention to it I I I really don't um or finding it remotely interesting actually um because I was so sort of myopically or otherwise just zoned in to my uh you know to to my own platform as it were my
00:24:37 know to to my own platform as it were my own operation whether or not it was your primary focus of attention you heard from the activists with whom you were associating in your undercover role that John dyes and Helen steel had had a close friendship is that the Su a fair
00:24:51 close friendship is that the Su a fair summary of your evidence well he wasn't referred to as John dyes by uh by by
00:25:02 referred to as John dyes by uh by by other no John Barker um it was but there was talk of you know Helen and John um as close friends but it was just a it was for me it was just uninteresting titl tattle it was just didn't feature in my life at all are you quite sure
00:25:15 in my life at all are you quite sure that what you heard was Helen and John close friends not Helen and John in a relationship together
00:25:21 together um no I don't recall which it was um I do recall just not being interested when you say you do not recall which it was you mean it's possible that they were spoken about as a couple and you can't remember well I can't remember I I
00:25:33 remember well I can't remember I I really can't so that is a possibility I I grant you yeah absolutely I just don't remember it was just so not of Interest so had you heard from the activist with whom you were
00:25:46 whom you were associating that a predecessor officer had had a
00:25:47 had had a relationship with a woman in those circles that would not have surprised you sufficiently for you to remember it today
00:26:06 today um well all I can say is I don't I don't remember um I remember it just not not featuring right if I can ask you to think back to the early 1990s as a deployed undercover officer with the
00:26:13 with the SDS if you had heard that another undercover officer was having a an intimate or sexual relationship with an activist would that have surprised you
00:26:30 um what have surprised me um I don't I don't think so um I was um was quite a high threshold for being
00:26:40 for being surprised would it have concerned
00:26:48 you um when you say concern would it the nature of the conduct the activity the what happens next that type of concern or any of those conc concerns would have would it have caused you any
00:26:59 would have would it have caused you any concern at all or would you simply have heard it and carried on with your day as if nothing out of the ordinary had happened um John D John D's world was
00:27:10 happened um John D John D's world was um just so unconnected with mine um he was sort of you know one of one of the seniors we had very little overlap once he'd moved on um I paid absolutely no
00:27:23 he'd moved on um I paid absolutely no attention to whatever was happening to him um you know by the by the headlines that surfaced in a way that made it um
00:27:34 that surfaced in a way that made it um unavoidable all right put John dyes to one side please and going back to the question if you had heard that another undercover officer deployed by the SDS was having a sexual relationship with a
00:27:48 was having a sexual relationship with a woman in activist circles would it have caused you any
00:28:00 concern um I don't I don't recall being privy to to a a story of that
00:28:05 that nature well we'll come on to it quite a bit later in the questioning but you were privy to information about officers who deployed after you being in those sorts of relationships weren't you for
00:28:20 sorts of relationships weren't you for example madew Jenner sorry um I was made aware of that because I was um told about the allegations um soorry what do you mean told about the
00:28:25 the allegations uh well none of his surface when I was on the Squad so I I I wasn't aware personally during my time of allegations of undercover officers
00:28:36 of allegations of undercover officers having sexual relationships but it was whilst you were still a police officer and still in contact with the SDS wasn't it I had a very loose connection um with SDS as everyone does U mainly in a a
00:28:49 SDS as everyone does U mainly in a a mentoring capacity if people decide they want to want to stay involved in that way yes you were mentoring a number of officers who deployed after you
00:29:02 officers who deployed after you including but not only Mart Jenner that's right isn't it yeah I'm going to use the term mentoring Loosely it wasn't a formal scheme it was meeting for coffee should you
00:29:11 you wish um more pastoral than mentoring but you uh had close enough contact with them to
00:29:29 contact with them to understand for example in the case of Mark Jenner that he had entered into just such a relationship during his deployment that's right isn't it
00:29:35 it um I just don't recall when we ever had that conversation um in which we discussed that we'll come back to that a bit later on in the questioning can I go back for now to John dyes and what you
00:29:47 back for now to John dyes and what you knew of him um we've heard evidence from others that he was or another officer that he was regarded as a bit of a Gong Hunter do you understand the term that he was looking perhaps for Glory or for reward
00:29:58 reward did you um observe anything about his conduct which made you think the same thing um so I could see in him
00:30:13 thing um so I could see in him um um an element of um superiority yes um
00:30:14 um in um his sort of self assured uh belief that he was sort of yes possibly possibly better than
00:30:29 yes possibly possibly better than most I asked you um a few moments ago about the officer hm4 um being arrested and disclosing his real identity to arresting officers the inquiry heard evidence from
00:30:43 officers the inquiry heard evidence from an officer known as hn 56 can you have a look at the cipher list
00:30:50 please yes that officer gave evidence to the inquiry to the effect the hn4 was confronted by John dyes who was critical
00:31:01 confronted by John dyes who was critical of the cir cumstances of his arrest were you aware of anything like that no again careful with names but please look at the cipher list did you hear anything about John dyes alongside
00:31:17 anything about John dyes alongside Robert Lambert and the officer who I will refer to only as
00:31:29 hn8 mhm did you hear anything about a falling out between those three officers and detective inspector hm
00:31:37 109
00:31:49 no what if anything was circulating amongst SDS officers about what happened to the officer called Stefan Scott and how his deployment came to an end um I don't recall I remember the name coming up but um
00:32:05 yeah don't recall I don't recall so you don't recall hearing anything about it other than the name coming up is that right other than the name coming up and a story attached to it um and yeah sorry I don't I don't recall you don't recall anything about the story attached to it
00:32:23 no did you at any stage discuss with um John
00:32:25 John dyes or did he discuss with you intelligence about um a a an alleged plot to contaminate Luca's Aid um no he never spoke to me about
00:32:48 that um slightly different topic please the creation of your cover identity and specifically the identity that you chose you say in your witness statement that you received instruction on creating a legend it wasn't formal training and that the detective
00:33:01 training and that the detective sergeants in the unit tested you on it do you
00:33:02 do you remember that evidence from your statement yes from whom or from where did you receive instruction on creating your
00:33:15 your Legend um so it was a a tried and tested practice how did you come to understand that it was a tried and tested practice um well one that that's what had been used um throughout the existence of the SDS but how did how did you come to how did you come to understand that hm1
00:33:31 did you come to understand that hm1 um through my time in the back office um and like written testimonials um of how um other officers um had begun their deployment and the prep required for it um it was also I
00:33:47 prep required for it um it was also I mean widely fictionalized admittedly um in sort of foreign law enforcement methods of undercover police working bodies with the FBI um and some European law enforcers so it was there it was there sort of as an industry industry
00:34:06 there sort of as an industry industry standard for want of a better term um as to the ability to deploy with something that was to a degree
00:34:11 degree checkable
00:34:12 checkable um and
00:34:15 um and Will was it ever suggested to you that there was an alternative way to create your cover identity no were you aware
00:34:27 no were you aware that in
00:34:33 that in 1994 so just about just over two years after you went about selecting a deceased child's identity that that method was phased out by the
00:34:42 SDS
00:34:49 um I I don't recall being aware but it was being but was phased out um or at that time anyway choosing the identity of a deceased child came with the risk
00:35:01 of a deceased child came with the risk didn't it that you might be confronted by your death certificate as as uh Richard Clark had been yes that was um yeah that was a risk was there never any discussion
00:35:15 risk was there never any discussion involving you or in your presence about whether there wasn't a safer way that didn't come with that risk no it was presented as this is technically a sort of almost a sort of
00:35:29 technically a sort of almost a sort of the science behind um how you begin this process and who presented it to you in that
00:35:30 that way um well the the the leadership of the office um Plus in the sort of the boxes of testimonials that um this is how we begin this is how we begin the
00:35:45 how we begin this is how we begin the process I'm going to ask please that we put on the screen a section of what's known as the tradecraft manual and just ask you a couple of questions about that MPS
00:35:53 MPS 0527 597 please paragraph uh sorry page eight so I'm not sure you have this in a hard copy
00:36:05 hard copy bundle so if we just pause on the first page that's the cover page hm1 and so that it's clear you may know this already but the evidence the inquiry has received is that this document was drafted not in whole but in large part by Andrew Kohl's at the end
00:36:24 large part by Andrew Kohl's at the end of his deployment so you would have been in the field by the time this document came into existence do you follow yes can we turn please to page eight paragraphs uh 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 please so the first two
00:36:41 paragraphs and I just want to read this to you hm1 it says this by tradition the aspiring SDS officer's first major task on joining the back office was to spend hours and hours at St Katherine's house leafing through death registers in search of a name he could call his own on finding a suitable ex person usually
00:36:54 on finding a suitable ex person usually a deceased child or young person with a fairly anonymous name the circumstances of his or her untimely demise was investigated if the death was natural or otherwise unspectacular and therefore
00:37:11 otherwise unspectacular and therefore unlikely to be findable in newspapers or other public records the SDS officer would apply for a copy of the Dead person's birth certificate further research would follow to establish the respiratory status of the Dead person's family if any and if they were still
00:37:24 family if any and if they were still breathing where they were living if all was suitably obscure and there was little chance of the SDS offic off or more importantly one of the wearies running into the dead person's parents siblings Etc the SDS officer would assume squatters rights over the
00:37:36 assume squatters rights over the unfortunate identity for the next four years all well and good but we are all familiar with the story of an SDS officer being confronted with his own death
00:37:47 death certificate what set out in paragraph 3.1.1 or be it drafted after you created your own cover identity does that
00:37:58 your own cover identity does that reflect the method that was adopted
00:38:09 reflect the method that was adopted yes the language that is used in that paragraph the reference to finding a suitable ex person establishing the respiratory status of the Dead person's
00:38:21 status of the Dead person's family and assuming squatter's rights over the unfortunate identity was that the sort of language that was used in the SDS to talk about this
00:38:29 this method of establishing one's cover identity no um it wasn't and um I've never seen that um so no is the answer are you saying
00:38:45 um so no is the answer are you saying this does not reflect the attitudes as you understood them of the SDS at the time of your deployment um that language no absolutely not and it um there there's a whole different approach philosophically
00:38:56 whole different approach philosophically and intellectually as to why that method was used um in in in my to my mind anyway and can you just very briefly explain what you mean by that yeah sure so
00:39:08 so um the due diligence on the identity um that sort of clinical research led to um at St cra's house um was then submitted
00:39:20 at St cra's house um was then submitted to um the office and whatever additional checks um as to the suitability of um of that identity falling into that description of you know not being
00:39:37 description of you know not being subject to too much um press scrutiny or connected with too many famous cases that would quickly bring any investigative Trail to light um the
00:39:53 investigative Trail to light um the whole ethos of doing this was not in any way to adopt the Persona lived the life of it was a a a sterile almost sort of um set of
00:40:04 um set of data um to to support the acquisition of um you know government documents um it was not seeking to connect with or be part of or represent or live the life of or even reference by name um anyone connected with that
00:40:22 name um anyone connected with that person or their family um and that's um that was the that that was the approach it it was it was a random set of letters that was checkable it wasn't living the life of that person or having any connection with them do I take it
00:40:39 any connection with them do I take it from the way that you've describ that that no consideration was given to whether there was any risk to the surviving family of the deceased person by the adoption of the name by an undercover officer um so the so yes there was a
00:40:53 officer um so the so yes there was a recognized risk the mitigation of that risk was deemed to be um good use of tradecraft um soorry can I unravel what what that means good use of tradecraft
00:41:10 what that means good use of tradecraft well well soorting to be who you are um and ideally not even doing anything that's going to lead to the beginning of an investigative Trail um by the time the investigative Trail has got to if we use that last Example The
00:41:25 use that last Example The Establishment um of the existence of a death certificate um you really are down the line of sort of compromise anyway and so the acceptance was that that is unlikely to be a realizable risk if
00:41:40 unlikely to be a realizable risk if every aspect of your operation sort of if you like offis scates or Ms any suspicions On You by conducting yourself in other ways but it was a recognized risk but so can I inter you that that's a risk to you the undercover officer
00:41:52 a risk to you the undercover officer that you're speaking about though isn't it where both to both um to both recognizing it to get to the officer you know there would probably be um contact made with um members of the family who
00:42:07 made with um members of the family who were who were who were very real um and was there any recognition of the distress that would be caused to them should that occur um so I don't remember that conversation um with me other than I've
00:42:22 conversation um with me other than I've come up with this um do what you need to do to check on whether this is appropriate um and that identity being deemed appropriate um let say the the whole ethos was of the investigative
00:42:34 whole ethos was of the investigative Trail not being such that it would ever get that far and therefore no one ever gets to know because it's covert um and
00:42:46 gets to know because it's covert um and is being used not in a way to to sort of relive the identity of those people um it's sort of almost a sterile set of like data points um to support documents right so so a a hint again of well they will never find out so
00:42:57 will never find out so it doesn't matter too much part part yeah I mean the whole operation is risky I'm from day one so everything came with risk um but there was um part of that risk mitigation is
00:43:14 was um part of that risk mitigation is the degree to which um one would not be compromised it wasn't with a view to getting away with things it was predicated on an operation that remained covert putting to one side for a moment the risk of compromise and and the fact
00:43:25 the risk of compromise and and the fact that that could lead uh a researcher to the family what about an officer getting arrested as you were in that identity
00:43:39 arrested as you were in that identity and the records that would be created as a result that might lead back to the family mightn't it um it might do but the degree to which anyone would know that um unless you became a public sensation um is
00:43:57 sensation um is remote what about if sorry if an officer which the inquiries received evidence that this happened not in necessarily in your case an officer was charged and due
00:44:13 your case an officer was charged and due to appearing court and was instructed to fail to attend that court appearance so that a warrant was issued in the name that warrant warrant excuse me would remain outstanding in the identity the name of the deceased person wouldn't it um yes it would but the access the
00:44:27 um yes it would but the access the access to details of the warrant um especially in the sort of the pre- internet age that this was um and and
00:44:39 internet age that this was um and and the link to anyone being able to find out 300 miles away um it's it's it's quite a low risk of that actually happening in reality the uh family of the child whose identity the deceased child whose identity you uh
00:44:55 identity you uh adopted you knew didn't you that they lived at the time in North Yorkshire yes and one of the times that you were arrested you were in North
00:45:08 you were arrested you were in North Yorkshire weren't you yes at the gr shooting
00:45:13 shooting yes so you weren't hundreds of miles away when Matthew Edward rer was arrested you were in the same county weren't
00:45:18 weren't you um yes but about in as remote an environment as you could possibly be but the risk of your arrest coming to the attention of the family whether through police action or
00:45:33 police action or publicity was rather greater than you've represented wasn't it I wouldn't say so I don't know how that would have through that course of action ever surfaced in a way that they would have be become
00:45:47 way that they would have be become aware a news report a local news report Matthew Edward rer was arrested on the 12th of August 1995 etc etc um it would have been pretty small fine I don't believe that did happen but yes it's um you know it's it's a finite risk but no real thought
00:46:00 it's a finite risk but no real thought is that is it fair to say given to the impact that might have on the family well the thought was that this the family would not find out um and it was there'd be no way for them to find out bar a full-blown hostile
00:46:14 out bar a full-blown hostile inquiry the deceased um uh sorry the identity that you adopted was of a child who was from Sheffield originally is that right yes and you say in your
00:46:28 that right yes and you say in your witness statement that you went to Sheffield for a day before you deployed is that is that when it happened yes yes what was the purpose of visiting
00:46:39 what was the purpose of visiting Sheffield um it was a pretty sort of um feeble sort of attempt to just at least have some sort of
00:46:51 have some sort of familiarity um with a city from my distant past um because I wasn't reporting to have lived there for for many many many years can you remember what caused you to go
00:47:02 can you remember what caused you to go to Sheffield given that you describe it as a a feeble attempt um just that seemed to be um a necessary thing to do um to get sort of
00:47:14 necessary thing to do um to get sort of Sheffield remotely into the bloodstream what gave you that impression that it was necessary to do that um internal theater um I I didn't probably need to really
00:47:24 really um uh especially as I wasn't going to be using Sheffield um or to have any knowledge of it um let me ask in this way did somebody in the management part of the SDS suggest that you should do it no I think it was more to give me
00:47:39 it no I think it was more to give me options for you know okay is Sheffield going to feature um in any way um and just have a think about that U you know while while you're there I don't remember it as being um in with
00:47:50 remember it as being um in with hindsight and at the time I I don't remember bearing mind I was never going to use Sheffield as any part of my story other than um originally from there as as being worth doing well can I ask
00:48:02 as being worth doing well can I ask again then just one final time why did you go if that was the case um well at the time I thought it made sense um you know I'm claiming to have come from
00:48:14 know I'm claiming to have come from there uh maybe um yeah Sheffield will feature um as where I'm currently associated with um it was to give it was to be it was to start the beginning of options which were quickly sort of dismissed was any purpose of the visit
00:48:28 dismissed was any purpose of the visit to check out or conduct further research on the family of Matthew Edward rer no and I I certainly didn't do that can we have up on the screen please the document MPS
00:48:41 0746 at 69 it's your B16 I'm
00:48:55 grateful hm1 another document that the inquiry located in the the hard copy records kept by the SDS do you follow yes and it appears to be all about your cover
00:49:10 Persona um when you were shown this before you gave your witness statement um you said um I don't think you had a particular recollection of this document is that fair to say um yes correct and you um suggested
00:49:22 say um yes correct and you um suggested that you must have set down your Legend to help you to memorize it and to assist others to test you on it that was what you said at paragraph 56 of your witness
00:49:35 you said at paragraph 56 of your witness statement yes so it it is your your best um evidence that this is or certainly the details in this document were put down into writing by
00:49:49 you um I'd imagine so yes and I'd imagine i' if it wasn't I'd certainly have seen it and checked it in paragraph one it gives the date
00:50:01 it in paragraph one it gives the date and location of uh birth and address of Matthew Edward rer whose identity you used and just above that there are the details of Matthew Edward rainer's um father and
00:50:19 mother yes but there the grandparents
00:50:27 details do you have any idea where you got that information from um no I don't um did you obtain that information no no I if you if you
00:50:38 I if you if you didn't can you take an educated guess as to who did well was part of the um I say
00:50:50 to who did well was part of the um I say when you submitted the identity that you proposed using um for further research and checking um I can only imine would
00:51:02 and checking um I can only imine would have been done by uh by the office right so further research into the family history or the family tree of the individual whose identity you adopted yes I I can't remember the degree of detail that appears on a on a conventional um birth certificate so
00:51:16 conventional um birth certificate so whether it was on there or or linked to that or the death certificate I don't know we heard evidence from Kaden Blake who is a surviving sibling of the real Matthew Edward
00:51:27 Matthew Edward um and the grandparents details were not
00:51:38 um and the grandparents details were not on the birth certificate but Caden Blake was able to confirm that the details on this document for the grandparents are accurate so accurate details for the grandparents have been obtained from somewhere your your best estimate is that someone in the SDS office would have obtained those details
00:51:59 yes the information in this document um as to uh the family the surviving family and the the deceased um grandparents the um location at which the parents were then living so Thoren be North
00:52:09 be North Yorkshire date of birth born in Sheffield Etc H how much of that information did you share with the activists who you came to associate with in that
00:52:26 in that identity oh um hardly hardly any of it um what about your parents' names for example as Matthew Edward rer no I don't I don't recall ever mentioning the names of my
00:52:37 parents so from the detail that we see there you adopted the name Matthew Edward Rainer and the date of birth that we see there the 16th of September 1967 um yes yeah but the sorry as know
00:52:55 1967 um yes yeah but the sorry as know for the purpose of things like passports and driving licenses that was my only connection um to to that
00:53:03 to that identity um other than your interaction so you will have interacted with the back office staff in relation to the creation of your identity yes um and you refer in your statement to being tested on it that would have been would it by the
00:53:14 would have been would it by the detective sergeants or by the detective inspector and Chief Inspector as well um probably both probably all of them to
00:53:33 probably both probably all of them to yeah I may yes yeah did any other of the undercover officers who you had taken advice from for example John dyes or Andrew Kohl's did they give you any advice about the creation of your undercover
00:53:40 identity um not no not not sort of not meaningfully nothing that added substantively to what the methodology was of the
00:53:55 day all right thank you can I change topic now please and ask you about still in terms of your time
00:53:57 time preparing to deploy what advice um if any you were given in relation to the commission of crime whilst an undercover
00:54:08 crime whilst an undercover officer um in your uh witness statement you um acknowledged uh that you had come across a home office circular in the back office called informants who take
00:54:20 back office called informants who take part in crime do you want me to put it on the screen to refresh your memory um if you don't mind that be help MPS 07 27104 it's not in a hard copy
00:54:44 bundle right that's the if we could zoom in on the main text this one dates from [Music]
00:54:52 1969 and paragraph three is the material part no member of a police force and no police informant should Council in sight or procure the commission of a crime where an informant gives the
00:55:04 crime where an informant gives the police information about the intention of others to commit a crime in which they intend that he shall play A Part his participation should be allowed to continue only where one he does not actively engage in planning and committing the crime two he is intended to play only a minor role and three his
00:55:18 to play only a minor role and three his participation is essential to enable the police to frustrate the principal criminals and to arrest them orbe it for lesser offenses such as attempt or conspiracy to commit the crime or carrying offense weapons before injury is done to any person or serious damage
00:55:30 is done to any person or serious damage to property the informant should always be instructed that he must on no account act as an Adon provocator whether by suggesting to others that they should
00:55:43 suggesting to others that they should commit offenses or encouraging them to do so and that if he is found to have done so he will himself be liable to prosecution so wording at informants generally but you came across this during your time in the back office is
00:55:56 during your time in the back office is that your best memory yes it's my best memory
00:55:56 memory yes you say in your witness statement that and I quote from paragraph 33 that it was accompanied by an oral instruction that low-level crime would
00:56:12 instruction that low-level crime would probably be acceptable but that I must let my managers know about it
00:56:16 it yes from whom did that additional instruction come well additional guidance was um from
00:56:28 from the the DCI um and from from um from Bob Lambert as to how to navigate this area at the time that you uh first deployed so late 1991 early
00:56:40 deployed so late 1991 early 1992 Robert Lambert was not the detective inspector in the unit di hn 67 was MH so the memory or the evidence that you've just given
00:56:52 that you've just given about receiving guidance from Robert Lambert does it follow that that would would have come later or was he giving you guidance in a different role no I
00:57:06 you guidance in a different role no I think it would have come later um when I guess the issues themselves became more of a
00:57:08 of a likelihood so once there was a likelihood that you yourself would become involved in in criminal activity yeah well once the possibility got a bit closer um because to begin with um I was
00:57:26 closer um because to begin with um I was a you know no one knew who I was so that most most unlikely that that would be the case and you said um also from the DCI is that hn 86 who was there at the beginning of your deployment it
00:57:38 deployment it um
00:57:48 yes can you help us with what lowlevel means when you say lowlevel crime would probably be acceptable um so there wasn't a list um of activity um but it um the types of things
00:58:00 things associated with what the people I associating with would do that constitutes that would be um low value criminal
00:58:06 criminal damage and by low value do you mean in the sense that it would be tried only in the magistrates Court in a technical sense or do you mean it in a in a less technical sense I mean it in a less technical sense um it's say it wasn't
00:58:19 technical sense um it's say it wasn't wasn't specific um and neither was it listed um but either way it was sort of the combination of a low level but um
00:58:32 the combination of a low level but um closely coupled with the only sort of if invited to and necessary and how did you come by that understanding that that low level or low value criminal damage is the sort of
00:58:45 value criminal damage is the sort of thing that would probably be acceptable was that said to you explicitly by h86 or was it less explicit than that no it
00:58:58 or was it less explicit than that no it was it was it was more less explicit but it was it was more of a a knowledge of the um of other people's operations um across the SDS where engaging in some form of criminality had been necessary for some of them at some
00:59:19 been necessary for some of them at some stage and how that was treated and dealt with were those examples discussed with you by reference to named individuals um well generically within that descriptive of what lowlevel um damage then yes and and and
00:59:35 lowlevel um damage then yes and and and the process for which was normally um a conversation with the DCI at the earliest
00:59:37 earliest opportunity but you were given to understand that SDS officers who had come before you had committed offenses of that nature in their undercover identities but it sometimes become
00:59:56 identities but it sometimes become necessary um uh to be or would have been caught up in activity in which that was was the
00:59:56 was the outcome of the event was it ever suggested to you that Robert Lambert was one of the officers
01:00:07 Robert Lambert was one of the officers who had committed criminal damage type offenses during his deployment um not specifically no were you aware that John dyes had been arrested at the pole tax riots yes how did you become aware of
01:00:24 riots yes how did you become aware of that um it was spoken about regularly um on the squad what was said um well very little more than that um that he had been arrested uh yeah but that's specifically in the poax uh riots
01:00:39 that's specifically in the poax uh riots what about the circumstances in which he had been arrested did you hear any talk of that um I did but I can't remember um didn't I don't remember finding it
01:00:50 didn't I don't remember finding it particularly Sensational um it was more part of for example at a big demonstration such as that these sorts of things going to happen right so it wasn't something that was considered to
01:01:02 wasn't something that was considered to be out of the ordinary or surprising but something to be expected for an undercover officer as far as it seemed to you um in certain in certain cases where people were closely associated with um individuals that were participating in that type of activity
01:01:17 participating in that type of activity other bits of SDS operations um on the more sort of pure sort of more discursive um political groups um never got anywhere near um the need to to do
01:01:37 got anywhere near um the need to to do this not nor indeed were the people they were mixing with so it was it was very much um officer dependent by the time that you received um guidance about participation in crime did you understand already that you would be deployed to um provide Intelligence on
01:01:52 deployed to um provide Intelligence on animal rights activists and the AL yes and did you consider that there was a risk of you uh becoming involved in criminal activity as a result of the sort of area into which you were going to
01:02:06 to deploy um at the stage um I was out at the beginning I was absolutely aware that the whole purpose um of my deployment was to get as close as possible to people engaged in illegal
01:02:23 possible to people engaged in illegal activity at the most extreme end so one of the things you were going you were supposed to report on was people who were committing crime
01:02:29 um that was never mentioned um but I mean obviously that comes under um intimidation campaigns acts of violence um extremist acts um there was no um not least because it was almost
01:02:48 no um not least because it was almost unheard of that within the animal rights movement that type of offense um ever surfaced or had surfaced sorry we may be at Cross purposes what what type of offense I thought you mentioned I I thought you mentioned Firearms did I missar you no so I just said crime so
01:03:01 missar you no so I just said crime so part part and parcel of your deployment was that you were going to end up reporting if you were going to be successful on people who were involved in the commission of crime yes yes that
01:03:14 in the commission of crime yes yes that was not a surprise at all to you or your managers that you would find yourselves if you were successful in your deployment amongst people who were regularly committing crime uh no but well by definition that was the uh that was the stated purpose
01:03:26 was the stated purpose can we take down the home office circular I want to ask you about some SDS guidelines please MPS 05
01:03:37 26756 it's b122
01:03:51 sir and we have to turn to page six of this document they're attached to something else thank you now these are guidelines hm1 that the inquiry understands to date from 199 sometime in
01:04:08 1994 and when you were shown these before you gave your witness statement you said that you didn't recognize them but that the contents correlated with the briefing you were given during your SDS
01:04:25 given during your SDS induction yes yes and I think if we look at the them they uh they don't uh replicate exactly but they mirror in spirit the home office
01:04:40 spirit the home office circular in the sense that they begin in this way um it is fully recognized that officers employed with the special demonstration Squad risk becoming involved in criminal activity such involvement should be avoided if at all possible however if through
01:04:51 possible however if through circumstances beyond the officer's control the officer becomes thus involved or reluctance to become involved would seriously affect credibility or operational effectiveness the following instructions must be adhered to I'll come back to the
01:05:04 adhered to I'll come back to the instructions but it's clear isn't it from this document that your primary Duty according to these guidelines was
01:05:15 Duty according to these guidelines was to avoid being uh involved in criminal activity yes and is that how you understood the position when you were deployed yes
01:05:31 H how does that fit together with the guidance that lowlevel crime would probably be acceptable um well I don't think it I don't think it contradicts um avoid if at all possible but where it is unavoidable for the reasons that are
01:05:43 unavoidable for the reasons that are stated um it is acceptable um then you know here are the guidelines uh so long you don't commission procure or Insight um so it was guidelin around which all
01:05:57 um so it was guidelin around which all sort of made made total sense to me I've got to say my whole um my whole demeanor and posture was not someone that
01:06:08 and posture was not someone that sought um to engage in activity what would un necessarily bring myself to attention so there's that balance between um who's going to give you any credit for a bit of
01:06:19 credit for a bit of criminality um one school of thought is why would you do something as stupid as that to bring yourself to attention and it actually damages credibility um and I I wasn't um I
01:06:41 credibility um and I I wasn't um I wasn't one of the more spontaneous types or sought to portray myself as not one of the spontaneous types um so very rarely very rarely did this actually come into play as to what I what what I needed to do um but it was the guidance that was there for made total
01:06:56 sense being a ared for a relatively lowlevel offense such as a lowlevel low value criminal damage or perhaps public order offense was that viewed by some of the people the activists with whom you
01:07:09 the people the activists with whom you Associated um as a bad idea because one would didn't want to come to the attention of the authorities for something
01:07:15 something trivial um so that's that's that was a view widely held um by the sort of I guess the more the more contemplative um and uh which um
01:07:26 and uh which um you which helped me enormously um because I wasn't naturally that person anyway so um and it was very rare that this ever happened um the the actual
01:07:37 this ever happened um the the actual activity that required these sorts of
01:07:46 conversations we'll come to some specific examples of your reporting in the course of my questioning but the impression one gets is that the individuals who thought that
01:07:57 is that the individuals who thought that being arrested for a relatively lowlevel offense was not a terribly good idea were nonetheless prepared to commit more serious
01:08:03 serious offenses and to take steps to avoid getting caught is that a fair summary of their the attitudes of some with whom you Associated yes so when you say that lowlevel criminality like this didn't
01:08:18 lowlevel criminality like this didn't really come up what about more serious criminality did there come a time in your deployment when you found yourself amongst people who were committing more serious offenses um well I was close to people that did
01:08:31 um well I was close to people that did commit more serious offenses um but it wasn't it wasn't through an orchestrated um plan U or campaign um on my part but did it did it not therefore come
01:08:45 not therefore come up the question of how you could avoid if at all possible yourself becoming involved yes all the time all the time these were you know to what degree um a proximity Is there what what is your role what is your knowledge what is the
01:09:00 role what is your knowledge what is the level of trust you have that allows you to be confided in um and you what is required to maintain that trust I mean these were daily daily questions um as the operation
01:09:13 questions um as the operation progressed so the question of maintaining the activist's trust in you as an undercover officer seems to come to the four in your description is that fair sorry could you say that could you
01:09:25 fair sorry could you say that could you just repeat that question sorry yes was the maintenance of trust in you amongst the
01:09:30 the activists a primary consideration yeah so the maintenance of trust was the absolutely
01:09:45 trust was the absolutely overriding um consideration for me I mean most of my existence was very quiet
01:09:46 quiet um uh
01:09:49 um uh discursive um supportive um and not a hotthead um that sort of played to who I sort of
01:10:02 sort of played to who I sort of naturally am and was uh which avoided the
01:10:08 the need I consider to improve in another way which which would not have been natural
01:10:13 natural anyway and so when we consider that and look back at these guidelines um they seem to permit the involvement of an officer in criminal activity if through C
01:10:25 criminal activity if through C circumstance it's beyond the officer's control or reluctance to become involved would seriously affect the credibility or operational
01:10:41 effectiveness as I understand your evidence you're suggesting the second of those reluctance to become involved would seriously affect the credibility or operational effectiveness was the one that was most often under consideration during your deployment yeah although I don't I don't believe that was that was
01:10:58 don't I don't believe that was that was absolutely tested um in a way that ever had to worry about um the sort of the minor incidents for example you mentioned the the gr sh know that was a just something that happened in the Heat of the Moment um was I mean it was more or less a a nothing event in the big
01:11:13 or less a a nothing event in the big scope of things um uh but it was about as minor as it gets but it was unavoidable at the time but do you agree this guidance whether or not um you ended up
01:11:25 whether or not um you ended up committing more serious crimes and will on to look at that but this guidance gives you as an undercover officer quite a wide remit potentially to become involved in the commission of crime doesn't it in the furtherance
01:11:37 doesn't it in the furtherance of your credibility or operational effectiveness um well I think you'd have to um you'd have to abuse some of those um some of that wraparound if you were
01:11:56 um some of that wraparound if you were um going to take liberties with that um so commissioning the procurement the incitement I me those are quite powerful um Provisions um that one needs to operate within and with respect for so you'd have to be operating pretty Rogue I would suggest to abuse it um in a way
01:12:08 would suggest to abuse it um in a way that falls outside of those outside of those guidelines and and for me it was all about
01:12:20 all about transparency um and with the office um and and my seniors but if as you said before the maintenance of trust was the overriding consideration yeah the maintenance of trust for me was actually in my
01:12:33 trust for me was actually in my opinion um sustained by me being actually quite boring but fundamentally nice which is probably how I am anyway um day after day after day after day
01:12:46 um day after day after day after day there were no setpiece criminality tests and on a very very small occasions on which they happened they were normally the result of um an unplanned in s of my part I would been part of a group where it might have spiraled a bit or it was a
01:13:04 it might have spiraled a bit or it was a public order related incident which just got caught up in the melee but um I say 99% of my time was a a a quiet almost sort of um nondescript but largely as I
01:13:20 sort of um nondescript but largely as I was hoping to build a trustworthy um and reliable um a reliable individual in whom trust could be maintained
01:13:34 could we take that document down please and have up on the screen paragraph 38 C of your witness statement that's MPS 0748
01:13:36 0748 95 it's page
01:13:48 19 it's the next page please
01:14:06 what you say there hm1 if you can see paragraph
01:14:07 paragraph C um by reference to the document that we've just been looking at you say this it was assumed that I would have to
01:14:18 it was assumed that I would have to engage in crime because of my target group keeping one's nose clean was impossible within a group that had direct action as its aim and to try to avoid any criminality whatever would undermine
01:14:29 undermine credibility I was to tell the office in advance ideally and certainly afterwards so there you seem to be recognizing that it would be um
01:14:41 it would be um impossible to avoid any criminality whatsoever within the sorts of circles that you were mixing yeah it would have been a it
01:14:54 mixing yeah it would have been a it would have been a challenge to have ended up doing absolutely nothing
01:15:03 um but most of it um was totally totally avoidable and was avoided avoidable because it wasn't the case that everyone in the groups that you mixed in so to take for example
01:15:14 you mixed in so to take for example London boots Action Group not everybody in that group involved themselves in criminal activity did they certainly not if you exclude arrests on the spot from minor public order offenses like
01:15:25 minor public order offenses like breaching the piece at a picket or demo yeah um I I agree with that but that wasn't what my answer I my answer to that was um I had Choice um I had Choice as to whether when people stormed into a shop whether I wanted to be part of that
01:15:40 shop whether I wanted to be part of that crowd um on home visits to the degree to which you know you'd want to be at the front um rather than timidly waiting at the back
01:15:50 the back um in most just about every one of those occasions um I wasn't the person that followed the mob into the shop or LED them all into the shop you know so it's that sort of choice I exercise on a
01:16:05 that sort of choice I exercise on a regular basis it was my Persona was not to be um of that sort of spontaneous unnecessary bringing oneself to attention um but then the balance was you know
01:16:14 you know well if you're there what do you believe in um every now and again you're just going to get caught up in something but it was a balance and on the majority of occasions it was I'm going to S I'm going to sit this one out because it's not me that's what I meant by the
01:16:25 not me that's what I meant by the exercising of choice but isn't what's set out there in your witness statement where you say keeping one's nose clean was impossible within a group that had direct action as its aim and to try to avoid any criminality whatever would
01:16:41 avoid any criminality whatever would undermine credibility isn't that a nod to the fact that if you're always the one at the back or timidly at a at a home visit someone might suspect that you're not really who you say you are
01:16:52 you're not really who you say you are yeah it was a balance and so on a couple of occasions um I was the person at the front or I was the person that was um uh
01:17:04 front or I was the person that was um uh in in the courtroom um or the subject of a sort of a an arrest of the public order demo but as a percentage of those occasions where I could have exercised that choice to be arrested I I deliberately chose not to
01:17:18 arrested I I deliberately chose not to be but yes I mean there's a you have to do something uh but it's a balance was it ever represented to you by any of your managers that it was not just uh necessary or possible that you might end up involved in criminal activity but
01:17:33 up involved in criminal activity but desirable to take part in some criminal activity in order to enhance your credibility um no it wasn't put like that it was um it was more of a discussion we've had up to now about um
01:17:48 discussion we've had up to now about um it it is likely to be necessary at some stage either food design um or being caught up in um in events that you will be involved in in criminality um so just
01:18:02 be involved in in criminality um so just you know operate within that guidance it wasn't an instruction to do that with a view to gaining credibility um and it was deliberately not part of my Persona that that was who I was purporting to be can we put up on screen please MPS
01:18:13 screen please MPS 07461 168 it's your b19
01:18:35 so and hm1 we will come back to this um later for the detail but in short it's a briefing note about a time when um Andy Kohl's brought to the Management's attention that individuals were suspicious of you within the first six or so months of your deployment do you recall do you recall seeing this document um I do recall seeing it as um
01:18:54 document um I do recall seeing it as um subsequently yes yeah as part of giving your witness statement to the inquiry yes I just want to ask you about one particular aspects of it now in the context of the evidence that you're giving the reaction by uh your
01:19:08 giving the reaction by uh your managers hn 86 I think is the author of this particular document but he was working alongside hn
01:19:19 67 was appears about halfway down this first page on the positive side he that's you will have to win their confidence by taking part in some illegal act which is not exposed or some sort of public order
01:19:30 exposed or some sort of public order arrest do you agree that that appears to express the sentiment that it would be a
01:19:41 express the sentiment that it would be a positive thing for you to engage in some illegal act in order to enhance your
01:19:52 illegal act in order to enhance your credibility um okay so was quite a lot to this particular document um I um uh
01:19:56 um uh at the time and sub I take a very dim view um of how um this particular incident was handled um um but and I I
01:20:10 incident was handled um um but and I I certainly disagree um with that comment that this was a course of action that was necessary to address whatever it was Mr Cole thought he'd come up with what do you mean by whatever Mr
01:20:23 with what do you mean by whatever Mr Cole's thought he'd come up with well so um I
01:20:28 um I um was I aware of this at the time um no I
01:20:31 I wasn't um and the idea that there was this binary approach to um commit something you know sort of illegal to get you through this without any sort of more sophisticated
01:20:44 any sort of more sophisticated conversation um uh was all a bit um was all a bit I remember it being quite awkward at the time but in answer to your question I don't remember I sorry I don't that instruction I absolutely I don't remember getting by the way and I would I would have done nothing with
01:20:57 would I would have done nothing with with it um unless it had fitted with what what by that time was um how I approached all of it on
01:21:08 was um how I approached all of it on work too so so if you if the detective Chief Inspector had suggested to you that you should take part in some illegal act which is not exposed in order to win the confidence of the people you were mixing with you would have disobeyed that instruction right but he didn't do that so that what's
01:21:27 but he didn't do that so that what's written there um was not communicated to me I've never had that conversation um and um so it's it's an odd um it's an odd conversation that took
01:21:38 um it's an odd conversation that took place there between um people in which I was not a conversation even though involved me I wasn't involved um but I never got that instruction and I so it's I guess it's it's hypothetical what
01:21:49 I guess it's it's hypothetical what would I have done had I got it was the approach of management to in fact encourage if not explicitly then by implication your involvement in some
01:22:02 implication your involvement in some criminality in order to allow you to get better access to the individuals who were involved in crime um no I don't remember that being explicitly said or even implicitly said and had it been
01:22:15 even implicitly said and had it been said um my immediate reaction would have been it's not going to work um it's if this is true what's been reported here it'll make it considerably worse why um well because it wasn't I'd be doing
01:22:28 um well because it wasn't I'd be doing something out of character um you know sort of a commission of an illegal act or
01:22:34 or manufacturing a different type of behavior supposedly in response to
01:22:45 behavior supposedly in response to um uh this particular um period of Suspicion but in order to get Intelligence on people committing let's say Al style crimes so potentially quite ser ious
01:22:58 ser ious criminality was it not acknowledged that you were going to have to portray yourself as Matt rer someone who is supportive of that sort of criminality at least potentially willing to involve yourself in it um not necessar and I
01:23:15 yourself in it um not necessar and I didn't do that um the it was a long long long period of the more discursive approach um but but not hiding my views on the importance of direct action to get the message um but the straightforward bringing
01:23:27 um but the straightforward bringing yourself to attention for Unnecessary criminality was viewed with disdain by many um who sought of a longer term like more strategic approach to campaigning
01:23:39 more strategic approach to campaigning at the at the sharper end but the longer term strategic approach for some individuals on whom you reported according to your reporting was to save up the risk of arrest for something that it was really worth being arrested for wasn't it to do something much more
01:23:53 wasn't it to do something much more serious um well something that they were prepared to um yeah U I guess they may there own internal calculation of um if I want to get uh my detained um um it
01:24:04 I want to get uh my detained um um it needs to be something that I can attach my beliefs to um and whatever I'm going to sacrifice my Liberty for I don't know it was different with every individual I think all I'm saying is if you
01:24:18 think all I'm saying is if you identified yourself as a hote head um it was um a sign that you weren't particularly trustworthy um or reliable um or could not be sort of you like trusted with um the more the more
01:24:30 trusted with um the more the more difficult stuff precisely that the hotthead in that context means somebody who's willing to get arrested by
01:24:43 who's willing to get arrested by overreacting at a demo or a picket being unruly or violent or threatening surely whereas the people according to your reporting committing or or looking to commit the more serious types of crime were keeping it quiet and more to themselves weren't they rather than re
01:24:58 themselves weren't they rather than re at pickets and demos yes and in order to gain their trust and persuade them by covert means to reveal their plans and their tactics to you did you
01:25:17 plans and their tactics to you did you not have to portray yourself as somebody in the same mold so exactly that not a hot head but somebody willing to take the more cautious approach to commit more serious crime um so I did present myself um as someone that took a more um cautious and I for want of use of a
01:25:32 um cautious and I for want of use of a better pompous term um cerebral approach um to doing things quietly um but balanced against the need for something that
01:25:44 for something that would I guess engender a bit of credibility maybe even sympathy um through um an arrest of the public order event which made it more explicable that I'd been caught up in something as opposed to seeking
01:26:01 confrontation just before we go to the break can I ask you um about something that Andy Kohl's has said to the inquir it's in his witness statement of paragraph 262 for those who want the
01:26:12 paragraph 262 for those who want the reference he has said to the inquir in his witness statement that at the extreme level Al activists operated at a cellular structure only revealing their plans and tactics to each other and
01:26:24 plans and tactics to each other and those they trusted do you agree age with that assertion well it's not it's not inaccurate um you know even but even to describe it in that way um suggests you know there was structure um it's probably rather more fluid than that but
01:26:37 probably rather more fluid than that but it's fundamentally there's an element of Truth to that yeah and then he goes on to say that the only way to identify Alf activists was to be an individual swimming in the same river becoming
01:26:49 swimming in the same river becoming trusted and then being invited to join their illegal activity or being made aware of their plans do you you agree with that well securing the trust and friendship absolutely um but the only
01:27:01 friendship absolutely um but the only way to identify who the ALF activists were was to be come trusted by them and then to be invited to join their illegal activity or otherwise being made aware
01:27:23 activity or otherwise being made aware of their plans well that is that is yeah that is a strategy yeah um you sympathy for willingness to support um a shared IDE
01:27:28 IDE um yes and is that the strategy that you
01:27:30 you adopted yeah but it be
01:27:40 yes thank you I'm Sor I've rather overshot the time for normal time for a break so I apologize to those who have been waiting but I wonder whether that's an appropriate moment it would be we'll rise for 15
01:27:53 minutes
01:47:51 e e
01:48:49 hm1 can you still hear hear me okay yes I can still hear you yes good um before um the short break I was asking you firstly about a document in which um hn 86 had commented that you might have to um take part in some illegal act and
01:49:03 um take part in some illegal act and then on um Andrew Kohl's formulation of um the way to get close to Al um activists and activity can I ask you please to look at uh one more document
01:49:16 please to look at uh one more document on this uh topic before we move on it's MPS
01:49:17 MPS 0730
01:49:23 0730 597 so this isn't in a hard copy bundle unless it's been provided to you separately today 073
01:49:34 separately today 073 0597 and it's a long document made up of a number um of uh individual documents can we please go to page uh 15 and you'll see from the first page hm1 that it's dated in 1993 so whilst you were employ uh deployed sorry and a
01:49:51 you were employ uh deployed sorry and a a document drafted by signed off on the face of it by DC h86 um but put together as part of um or amongst the managers so not amongst undercover officers but
01:50:06 undercover officers but managers and it contains a section as you see here on page 15 about involvement in crime uh 3.4 it is part of the prefield training and in group or individual briefings that each SDS officer uh to
01:50:21 briefings that each SDS officer uh to make them thoroughly conversent with the instructions regarding involvement in crime and the action to be taken and particularly if prior intelligence is received or as in the majority of cases they are arrested as a result of spontaneous events can we see the rest of the text
01:50:41 please um it's a reference to a historical event at paragraph 3.5 paragraph 3.6 the ramifications of any such occurrents have never been taken lightly and full cognizance has been given to the provisor that no member of
01:50:54 given to the provisor that no member of a police force should Council inight or procure the commission of a crime nor indeed take any course which would lead any officer to mislead a court in any subsequent proceedings and then could we please go over the page to page uh
01:51:14 16 paragraph 3.8 since those early years arrests have been relatively few and it is to the credit of the officers involved that on many occasions where involvement in crime was proferred excuses have been found such as redacted
01:51:27 excuses have been found such as redacted to avoid involvement in the actual event the higher risk fields for involvement in crime are anti-fascist activity anarchism and animal rights so that is um to an extent at least consistent with the evidence that you were giving
01:51:40 the evidence that you were giving earlier that you understood the animal rights field to be an area where you might um come into a situation where you were involved in criminality is that fair yes it is fair well if we look at paragraph 3.9
01:51:56 well if we look at paragraph 3.9 please the document goes on in this way in the last mentioned field as animal rights in order to gain full acceptance and Trust participation in illegal activities is essential do you agree that it was
01:52:09 essential do you agree that it was essential to be involved in illegal activities when deployed into the animal rights
01:52:15 rights field um so essential um
01:52:26 well it's essential that one is one has to be
01:52:37 to be prepared to be involved um as and when the circumstances necessitate so essential
01:52:45 essential um probably at some stage um you one would need to do something um or be associated with more than just um dis discursive support the suggestion that participation in
01:52:57 the suggestion that participation in illegal activities is essential seems to run contrary to the guidelines that suggest that being involved in criminal activity should be avoided if at all possible doesn't it yeah so you can hear me I'm wavering on essential here
01:53:10 me I'm wavering on essential here um um I don't I don't know if it is essential it's a it's a coming close to and being involved with is almost an inevitable decision that someone is
01:53:21 inevitable decision that someone is going to have to make that's some stage and um is the act itself essential don't know um it it can be absolutely a key
01:53:34 know um it it can be absolutely a key part of a development of the story um and a credibility which takes you that further forward um if we go on the the document
01:53:45 um if we go on the the document continues in this way this level uh is Progressive from inspections of premises where no actual sorry where no criminal offenses are actually committed through
01:53:58 offenses are actually committed through the housing of liberated animals doring and other minor damage to premises through to product contamination arson and the use of improvised explosive
01:54:13 devices were you given to understand when you deployed into the animal rights field that you may be involved in criminality as serious as arson and the use of improvised explosive or incendiary devices no were you made aware that there was a
01:54:26 were you made aware that there was a guidance or a note a management note drafted during your deployment which suggested that that might be contemplated
01:54:38 contemplated no are you sure about that yeah I'm pretty sure about that I mean as distinct from the recognition that those individuals that were supportive of or possibly moving towards involvement in that harder end was was the were the
01:54:52 that harder end was was the were the sort of um were the targets if you like of those that I was expected to get get close
01:55:05 close to and get close to by involving yourself in that nature of criminality no um by good trade craft relationship building
01:55:14 building um trust and everything that goes into um that type of being brought into one's confidence so there was no there's I say there was nothing in this sense that's
01:55:26 there was nothing in this sense that's prescriptive you were chosen for making the right judgment calls and transparency um and consultation with how that
01:55:34 how that approach um how that approach was going and if it did need to move into a as of criminality um then it was a discussion and the seeking of an
01:55:50 discussion and the seeking of an authorization what does good tradecraft relationship building mean Does it include
01:55:55 include making yourself appear willing to be involved in criminal activity uh I think it involves in my case it
01:56:02 case it involves just patient boring monotonous being present
01:56:13 patient boring monotonous being present being supportive of discret support for the harder end activity and a support
01:56:28 the harder end activity and a support for a particular cause and almost a sort of tunnel Focus support on a particular particular aspect of animal rights um activity so the the viction movement um
01:56:29 um that allowed one to have a sort of a demeanor a set of beliefs a sort of um an approach to
01:56:47 what drove them um that was short of um the criminality itself um that's what I mean by trab for the relationship building the patience the just being there um almost forgotten about but
01:56:58 there um almost forgotten about but trusted so you considered that discreet support for criminal activity was sufficient to allow you access to the
01:57:09 sufficient to allow you access to the sort of information about planned crimes that would be of use to special branch and policing is that right so yes but in isolation um it wasn't as pure as that
01:57:22 isolation um it wasn't as pure as that um there were instances where um I was a rested um so there was the element of um having put oneself in a position where I wasn't just sitting back it was that balance between not seeking to but
01:57:34 that balance between not seeking to but having that at least on if you like the visible sign of not just sitting back so it wasn't just a pure relationship buing there were certain acts certain events
01:57:45 there were certain acts certain events um that you know had me being detained but the acts for which you were detained will come to the details later were
01:57:59 will come to the details later were public order typee offences weren't they one at a gr shoot a Sab and the other following a home visit trying to get into a tube station where the police were in the way to summarize absolutely yeah real real sort of minor stuff
01:58:12 yeah real real sort of minor stuff absolutely yeah so the two crimes for which you were arrested were minor public order offenses yes when it comes to gaining intelligence on the real focus of your
01:58:35 intelligence on the real focus of your deployment as you set it out the extreme Al activity which involved more serious crimes such as product contamination arson and the use of improvised explosive or incendiary devices being arrested for a public order offense on the spur of the moment wasn't going to gain you an awful lot of credibility with the people willing to carry out those acts was it U not in
01:58:49 carry out those acts was it U not in isolation no it was just another one of the patient incremental if you like building that the jigsaw over a long period of time that was something to talk
01:58:56 talk about and so in order to get close to those who were carrying out the sorts of Acts there arson product contamination improvised explosive or incendiary
01:59:08 improvised explosive or incendiary devices did you not have to present yourself as willing to engage in that sort of
01:59:23 sort of activity um no no I had to prove myself as someone that was um committed to to lonely um picket lines um campaigning against institutions week in week out um and
01:59:31 and doing
01:59:37 doing um basic but essential support type roles in terms of taking people to demonstrations public events um and helping with the sort of um the basic
01:59:55 of um the basic running um of of local campaigns it was that very mundane but important but reliably
02:00:00 reliably present um involvement over a long period of time while building uh building the relationships but as I understood your evidence the earlier
02:00:13 understood your evidence the earlier today there was a great sve of people in the animal rights movement who were dedicated to
02:00:24 dedicated to demonstrating to pickets to traveling to those events to organizing things in in Lely lawful campaign groups you're not suggesting are you that all of those people would have been made privy to plans
02:00:29 plans about proposed arson attacks or the use of improvised incendiary devices no very very very few I mean deeply deeply
02:00:41 very very few I mean deeply deeply hidden and and protected so how did you set yourself apart from that great s such so much so as to be trusted with information about the more serious
02:00:52 information about the more serious criminality um I think it was a process of
02:00:58 of time um and patience and as I say sorry sorry coming back to the same description but just actually been quite quite boring in a sense um or in a total sense but just reliably being there
02:01:11 sense but just reliably being there trustworthy discreet not a RAB or Rouser um
02:01:18 um and enjoying the enjoying the engagement and ensuring the engagement is enjoyed uh day after day after day week after week month after month year after year by engagement do you mean interaction with other activists yes yes for
02:01:32 with other activists yes yes for socializing yes and so your evidence is that that was sufficient to Grant you access to
02:01:39 access to information about the planned Commission of quite serious Crimes by people who you would term Al extremists um well in terms of what happened that transpired to be the case yeah I mean it was um the whole
02:01:52 yeah I mean it was um the whole operation was a a long period of time of of being someone real um and people did make that judgment call that I could be trusted so what do you mean of being someone
02:02:07 real um well a a real person that was who they purported to be um and was a reliable a reliable part of the scene so it was your reliability and trustworthiness that you think got you
02:02:21 trustworthiness that you think got you access to some intelligence about some quite serious planned crime um I think probably the the shared the shared support for at least intellectually um direct action
02:02:32 least intellectually um direct action are you quite sure you didn't present yourself as somebody quite willing to take part in direct action um so there was there was the
02:02:46 action um so there was there was the minor stuff where I'd sort of done that um in in isolation but it was my whole approach to it was um if you start presenting yourself as someone who is that you show out more and cause more cause for concern than than there might have been otherwise what even if you
02:03:01 have been otherwise what even if you just made it known to somebody who you already suspected to be involved in quite serious criminality that you were supportive and potentially willing you think that that would have shown you out well over a period of time you don't get
02:03:14 well over a period of time you don't get it all done in one sentence um it's it's over a period of time it becomes known subtly slowly as to how supportive you are or one is for direct
02:03:25 are or one is for direct action and so does it not follow that you must have presented yourself even if slowly and over time as somebody who was supportive of direct action yeah
02:03:44 yeah the picture that we see from the documents and indeed from what you've said
02:03:46 said about the guidance given to you about participation in crime must have LED you to believe at the outset of your deployment that there was quite a high risk that you would find yourself
02:04:01 risk that you would find yourself involved in criminality is that fair yes how did you feel as a police officer about the prospect of being arrested and potentially charged with a crime
02:04:18 um I sort of I sort of factor that in as if and when it was necessary um it would just be part of um the building of credibility an
02:04:30 of um the building of credibility an inevitable course of action that one couldn't
02:04:31 couldn't avoid um and something that was necessary as part of an operation so how did I feel about it um it felt to me as if at some
02:04:42 if at some stage um this would need to happen and probably would happen all right so not concerned that you were about to do something that to a police officer one
02:04:56 something that to a police officer one might imagine was anathema breaking the law
02:05:01 law um well I mean what I was doing was actually sanctioned um by um by what I'd been asked to do by the state um so there was an authorization
02:05:13 state um so there was an authorization for what was being done and a mandate to do it within the terms of the guidance um so in that in that sense um and it's quite an important distinction
02:05:24 quite an important distinction um it was an act as a police officer that was
02:05:26 that was authorized and the impression that you were given was that certainly low-level criminal damage or crimes of that nature
02:05:39 criminal damage or crimes of that nature were likely to be authorized even if you didn't have the opportunity to let your managers know in advance yeah and sort of all those documents sort of um at least got to at least got there very
02:05:49 quickly sorry I'm not sure I follow that answer those documents well the recognition um that you know providing you providing you were breaching uh the guidelines of the procurement um um any
02:06:05 guidelines of the procurement um um any incitement the low level pre-authorized or discussed as soon as possible um would be something that was tolerated um within the um operating boundaries of the
02:06:21 unit um before I move on um I've just been reminded that there was a matter that I ought to have asked you about earlier when I was asking you questions about the creation of your identity and the use of a deceased child's identity so can I do that uh now um and it was in
02:06:37 so can I do that uh now um and it was in connection with um the death certificate in fact it came earlier in the questioning when I was asking you about um your awareness of um Helen Steel's efforts to track down the man she knew as John Barker do you remember I was
02:06:50 as John Barker do you remember I was asking you questions about that yes um you said that um you became aware um either through h86 or through Robert
02:07:07 either through h86 or through Robert Lambert informing you that those efforts um were being made or had been made is that right yes bely do you recall any mention during uh that that one of the ways or the way that Helen steel appeared to have figured out who John Barker was was by
02:07:18 figured out who John Barker was was by finding John Barker's death certificate
02:07:31 um I don't remember factoring that in um do you remember anybody speaking about that I don't know can I turn briefly to ask you about your targeting at the outset of your deployment I think you say in your
02:07:45 deployment I think you say in your witness statement that um there was some discussion initially of you being targeted to the Socialist Workers Party the swp but it was never seriously pursued
02:07:55 pursued Ed and that animal rights extremism was settled
02:08:07 settled upon um what input if any did you have in that process of deciding where you would be targeted or were you simply told um no it wasn't told it was certainly um it was certainly a discussion um there was a discussion around um why one and not the other
02:08:18 other um and so yes it was it was a it was a discussion there was a um there was an element of in the selection process um it's there's a sort of talent
02:08:38 process um it's there's a sort of talent spotting sometimes with a View to a um a particular type of Officer um perhaps from the pure Aesthetics um and um and some are deemed to be just more aesthetically sort of I guess attractive um for certain groups
02:08:51 guess attractive um for certain groups and others do you mean somebody thought you look like you might fit better alongside animal rights extremists than swp members uh well that that that between those two organizations I think either would have been I guess I would have fitted either in that sense um and
02:09:03 have fitted either in that sense um and if that didn't play out here um I think what played out here was a discussion in which
02:09:12 which um you is there one is there one particular organization which instinctively you would sit more
02:09:22 instinctively you would sit more comfortably with to the degree that you would be comfortable with either right so it was very much involving you and your views and not just the views of those in the chain above you correct you say in your witness statement that from an ethical perspective you thought that being deployed into animal rights
02:09:33 being deployed into animal rights extremism was a good use of police resources can you explain what you meant by
02:09:40 by that um yes um so at the time um the need to address
02:09:51 time um the need to address um the level of criminality um and the consequences of it for me Justified this degree of effort and
02:10:03 degree of effort and resource um in this approach to um identifying and preventing acts of
02:10:14 identifying and preventing acts of criminality so it seemed necessary and it seemed proportionate would that be another way of putting it yeah no to totally yeah yeah I think um otherwise i' have I otherwise i' struggled with it
02:10:30 um you may not feel able to offer a view but would you have had would you have drawn the same conclusion if you had been deployed into the swp that it was necessary and
02:10:41 necessary and proportionate um I could see from um a public
02:10:42 public order
02:10:43 order um perspective at the time uh when the swp was capable of uh organizing big big
02:10:59 swp was capable of uh organizing big big big big marches you know 40 50 60,000 um absence um anything else I didn't feel attractive to the sort of discursive um nature um or the ideology um of of of the
02:11:12 ideology um of of of the group could we have a look please on the screen at the targeting strategy document that was created um for you MPS 0726
02:11:25 0726 963 uh 17 sir hm1 it's dated the 14th of January of 1992 so just about the time that you
02:11:36 1992 so just about the time that you were uh going out forly into the field and it's signed off by detective inspector hn
02:11:46 67 I just want to ask you um and thinking about some of the questions I asked you before the break about um some of the things that are put forward in this this
02:11:53 document um paragraph three
02:12:05 please it says this penetration of this field has previously proved extremely productive and has resulted in the disruption of campaigns and in the arrest and conviction of persons involved in the manufactur of incendiary
02:12:21 devices firstly is this a document that you were either involved in creating or given to
02:12:25 given to read um I certainly wasn't involved in its creation um it I mean it's it certainly looks like the sort of thing i' have been shown um doesn't stand out in any particular way and does it follow that
02:12:39 particular way and does it follow that the references to past successes as it's presented there um the arrest and conviction of persons involved in the manufactur of incendiary devices that you were told about the history of
02:12:50 you were told about the history of deployments into animal rights groups by the SDS
02:12:56 the SDS um yes yeah there was um yeah sort of big picture those that have done it before um because that that seems plainly to be a reference to Robert Lambert's
02:13:10 Lambert's deployment um were you aware of that yes and how was how was that presented to you in terms of what he had done um it was presented to me as someone that had had a successful
02:13:22 someone that had had a successful tour um had um was experienced of operating um in that area um and understood the environment uh understood the
02:13:33 environment uh understood the environment well and who presented it to you in that way well I'm I'm those I'm paraphrasing um but it was I mean it was known about that that's what he did um and that was his um if you like
02:13:51 and that was his um if you like credibility um but almost gave him the right to be one of the um one of the managers and so when you say it was known about amongst whom was it known well the the general field um that um that um Bob had been an operative
02:14:11 himself did you hear any suggestion that he was himself involved in planning for the use of iids at any stage during his deployment no or planting an IID no was the possibility of you yourself
02:14:24 the possibility of you yourself obtaining intelligence about the planned use of iids at the Forefront of your mind given that this is included in your targeting
02:14:32 targeting strategy um it wasn't at the Forefront no I mean it just seem such a a distant hidden um part of what was going on
02:14:48 hidden um part of what was going on um but no it wasn't U while accepting that
02:14:52 that ultimately that level of of activity um and the other categories of um Arsen intimidation campaigns and contamination were very
02:14:59 were very prominent um investigations um into which help was sort so so you expected to go out into the field and perhaps find intelligence of arson intimidation campaigns and
02:15:11 of arson intimidation campaigns and contamination amongst the more serious criminality is that the effect of what you just said so so so so th those were the headlines of activity um that brought those engaging
02:15:22 activity um that brought those engaging it um if you like into sharp Focus as to why this was so serious um along the way and associated with are the other aspects of the big sort of political
02:15:35 aspects of the big sort of political activism campaigning and public disorder um uh which was also a part of what we were required to provide Intelligence on so so sort of a plethora of the public order um and then the the criminality
02:15:52 order um and then the the criminality itself but the public order aspect of animal rights activity speaking
02:15:53 speaking generally was not really at the Forefront of your deployment was it in the same way that it might be if you
02:16:09 the same way that it might be if you deployed into the swp say um well it was in as much as some of the um events at which um individuals might be present and cause
02:16:10 and cause confrontation um was of value to how either the potential subjects of those investigations were going to be protected and in terms of how local police police commanders could make
02:16:24 police police commanders could make resourcing decisions um so there was a there was a very big overlap and also there was also normally an indication or certainly a correlation between the mood um of even the big S swp organizations
02:16:38 um of even the big S swp organizations um organizational event organized events sorry and the sort of the appearance of specific individuals that were sometimes an indicator of potential um conflict and
02:16:50 and flareups but in terms of your deployment in to animal rights are you saying that you saw public order intelligence as of equal importance to Intelligence on possible
02:17:04 possible criminality um well they were they sort of came as one and the same orbe it sometimes perpetrated by different individuals um uh not least because um these individuals will turn up at the same will be part of or sympathetic to
02:17:21 same will be part of or sympathetic to some of the big public campaigns which weren't necessarily um specific to um for example the anti the section
02:17:28 movement can I ask you in a little more detail not not moving on a little from targeting but what you really understood the purpose of your deployment and your intelligence reporting would be to what
02:17:42 intelligence reporting would be to what purpose it would be put can we bring up your witness statement please MPS 0748
02:17:44 0748 095 at paragraph 6 page four
02:18:04 so paragraph uh six at the top and hm1 for context you're here talking about what you understood in fact before you joined um the SDS in terms of uh special branch in interest generally you say
02:18:15 branch in interest generally you say this there were individuals of interest and there would be an intelligence requirement on them special Branch would want to know where they live what vehicle they drive and who they live with the intelligence was directed toward corroborating or dispelling
02:18:30 toward corroborating or dispelling indications that these individuals were involved in extremist activity so did you understand that one purpose of your deployment into the
02:18:45 purpose of your deployment into the animal rights extremism field to be to obtain intelligence of that nature about uh activists
02:18:55 involved in any sort of animal rights activism um yes yes if there was an intelligence requirement on them um yeah that that paragraph's accurate yeah I I did understand that and when you say
02:19:07 did understand that and when you say there was an intelligence requirement on them were you reliant on being tasked directly by a customer so perhaps this the desk in special Branch to know that there was such a
02:19:20 Branch to know that there was such a requirement yes yes that would be by and large
02:19:21 large um where the Direction came from so rather than hoovering up everything
02:19:35 rather than hoovering up everything about everyone you came across you were Reliant were you on being told which individuals were of interest to a certain
02:19:36 certain extent um yes to a certain extent and was there another part of it in which you identified which individuals you thought were of Interest a special
02:19:48 thought were of Interest a special branch and reported on them of your own motion yes
02:19:55 just looking at what you say there in paragraph
02:20:02 paragraph six you did report um sometimes on where individuals were living what vehicle they drove who they were living with in what way does that intelligence assist in corroborating or dispelling
02:20:13 assist in corroborating or dispelling indications that they were involved in extremist
02:20:18 extremist activity um I think those are those sort of investigative elements are the core tenants and threads of any investigation be it cover or otherwise um so the lifestyle and the arrangements um for how one conducted
02:20:30 arrangements um for how one conducted one's life where one lived um Vehicles driven um was that part of that classic assessment of um who else is associated
02:20:41 assessment of um who else is associated with that address with these individuals where do those Vehicles turn up um I mean there sort of I guess straight out of detective training school um investigative threads in building a picture
02:20:55 picture um of someone and Associates um in whom there was interest right but in detective um the world of a detective investigating a crime that has been
02:21:06 investigating a crime that has been committed or it is suspected people are conspiring to commit there will be a group won't there of identified suspects and their Associates whose details you might be interested in
02:21:18 interested in gathering whereas you were gathering up the details of a number of people who may or may not have been suspected of involvement in any illegal activity well I think where where my information have come from if you like non- tased by the desk um it was with a
02:21:33 non- tased by the desk um it was with a view to um well it was specifically with an assessment of um who these people were associated with what I viewed to be um if you like where they were on their journey of beliefs and support for and
02:21:45 journey of beliefs and support for and associations with and influenced by um in a way that was probably more accurate and up to dat um than the rather more
02:21:56 and up to dat um than the rather more distanced um collection of information by other means um on the desk but as a police officer you could couldn't you understand who lived at an address without the need for an undercover
02:22:07 undercover officer um well um yes yes you could but you wouldn't really know about what they thought of what they believed or where they were turning up and who they were associated with and what other slaughter them um
02:22:22 with and what other slaughter them um and it could be that the answer to that was of no interest to anyone and that would quite often be this person's of no interest to anyone in this context but the
02:22:33 context but the reporting um would have gone in if you were asked for that information regardless of whether it looked valuable or not well I think if I'd been asked for it and if it had come through the tasking machine um I think I would have
02:22:44 tasking machine um I think I would have assessed her was a leg well would always have assessed it was a legitimate requirement for those that those wanted to know one way or another what this person
02:22:55 person who this person was associated with and what they fitted into how they fitted into any ongoing
02:23:00 investigation can we look at another paragraph of your witness statement regarding um how you decided what to put into your reports it's paragraph 18 page 8
02:23:15 please um and we will go over the page thank
02:23:24 you all right so you say in special Branch a high premium was placed on quality report drafting the whole culture of special Branch incouraged reports in a certain format um I'm not going to read the rest of the detail you say it was a style that was nurtured and
02:23:36 that was nurtured and taught um and can we go over the page please I want to ask you I want to pick back up in the Middle where it begins I
02:23:52 back up in the Middle where it begins I was aware that valuable intelligence do you see that I was aware that valuable intelligence comprised anything that informed decision making by The Wider police
02:23:57 police organization information that was as granular and as actionable as possible and information that might corroborate
02:24:09 and information that might corroborate or refute other reporting that special Branch was receiving unbeknownst to one's
02:24:17 self how could one know what information might corroborate or refute other reporting if not aware of that other
02:24:28 reporting if not aware of that other reporting um well I wouldn't always know um but I uh I'd be operating on the basis that what I'd been asked to provide in my assessment of it would help with those that had the wrer picture so there was a certain element was there of I don't mean this in a
02:24:41 was there of I don't mean this in a demeaning sense but stabbing in the dark assuming that some information might be useful without actually knowing the the other the context for it well I think if if I'd actually been asked for it um my
02:24:52 if I'd actually been asked for it um my default would be there's a genuine need for me to provide an
02:25:01 answer and if you hadn't been asked for it directly how were you deciding what was and wasn't worth reporting um judgment and what were you using to inform your judgment um mood
02:25:14 judgment um mood associations um connections with um who they were purporting to be what their beliefs were um level of activity involvement um support for criminal ity
02:25:25 involvement um support for criminal ity um indicators of if not already known um a move in that direction were you kept a breast by your managers of The Wider intelligence
02:25:36 managers of The Wider intelligence picture that was known to special Branch about the individuals and groups on which you were reporting um The Wider picture yes um
02:25:48 reporting um The Wider picture yes um and that sort of wider tasking of of the groups on the group side and on individuals yes you say elsewhere in your witness statement that you didn't have direct access to intelligence yourself once you were in the field but you would
02:26:02 were in the field but you would sometimes be shown um a special Branch report by your managers in connection with specific tasking yes how frequently would you be be shown other special Branch
02:26:15 Branch reporting during your deployment um well it was
02:26:23 um it was um a regular part of
02:26:24 of the twice weekly meetings um that where
02:26:36 the twice weekly meetings um that where there was a need to brief the officer on information of relevance um it would be dealt within that way so in that sense um it was it was frequent um and and it was a regular part of um the twice weekly
02:26:59 meetings and were you given access um via those meetings to complete files the RF files registry files of key individuals on occasion um I think you could um I think you could request them um I seem to record and and did you request
02:27:15 record and and did you request them um I don't recall requesting it that often I I had specific questions um on specific individuals and relied on sort of tailored briefings in response
02:27:24 response to my
02:27:27 to my tasking did you ever have specific questions about for example Miss Fuller that caused you to look at her registry file once it
02:27:38 file once it existed um I certainly had specific questions as to um how important um on what the intelligence requirement was uh on on
02:27:51 was uh on on is and was that before you formed a relationship with her or during the relationship or afterwards or a
02:28:03 relationship or afterwards or a combination of those three um no it was it was before I mean um her she was um there on the scene um as soon as you know as soon as I arrived but also she
02:28:16 know as soon as I arrived but also she was the subject of um interest from an intelligence perspective um on the requests I were I was
02:28:24 was receiving her registry file was not opened until 1992 so at the time you first deployed she didn't have a file no but were you aware of that um I wasn't specifically aware of that but
02:28:35 wasn't specifically aware of that but there was that was um just because they didn't have a file a file was um created as a certain stage of interest um as
02:28:46 as a certain stage of interest um as distinct from her appearing in requests from uh other customers uh which I which I got to see
02:29:02 regularly but you recall do you that she was a subject you said as soon as I arrived on the scene she was also sorry the transcript there has just jumped for me one
02:29:15 second yeah you said she was there on the scene as soon as you arrived but also she was the subject of interest from an Ence perspective on the requests you were receiving so you were aware of
02:29:28 you were receiving so you were aware of her well sorry the question is were you aware of her presence before you were receiving specific requests for Intelligence on her or was it the request for intelligence that brought her to your attention I can't remember
02:29:40 her to your attention I can't remember the exact chronology um but but um there would it would have been there would have been not much time between whatever the chronology was um but she was a very present person in what was quite a small group
02:29:54 what was quite a small group um right I'll come back to ask you some more questions about how you met um Miss Fuller later on can we stick with um this section of your witness statement for now um it it one of the other
02:30:07 for now um it it one of the other aspects of what you say there was that the information needed to be as granular and as actionable as
02:30:18 and as actionable as possible can you explain what actionable means
02:30:26 means um well I think if it was linked um something that would meaningfully contribute to um an investigation um or an assessment one
02:30:38 investigation um or an assessment one way or another as to the degree to which um they were disposed towards criminality um or extremist
02:30:47 thinking um in some cases that would be if it with granularity with regards to what action needs to be taken um was sometimes a reference to engagement in criminality um or the planning of an event in which there was likely to be um s of audic right so
02:31:06 likely to be um s of audic right so intelligence further to which the police might take some action for example some action preventively or not either on behalf of the subject of the whatever the event was or indeed the individual themselves planning it when you were reporting did you
02:31:19 it when you were reporting did you consider that your purpose as an SDS officer
02:31:20 officer was to be reporting information in an objective sense as in reporting facts
02:31:35 objective sense as in reporting facts rather than opinions or did you consider that you were being asked to engage in some sort of analysis as well so not analysis um but certainly yes
02:31:49 analysis um but certainly yes objectivity uh was absolutely key um but in terms of the assessment part and the the Judgment part and um I was relied upon to give my views on um on on an individual um on the basis that I was you know closer to an individual than any conventional
02:32:04 individual than any conventional investigation would ever get and to the extent you offered your views on the individual they were necessarily subjective to a certain extent is that fair um yes yes when you were uh submitting
02:32:17 yes when you were uh submitting reports did you draft in such a way as to make a distinction between something that you for example had observed directly as compared to something that you had heard secondhand and were
02:32:29 you had heard secondhand and were assessing the reliability of or did you just put it all down on paper and leave that for somebody else no I did try to
02:32:42 that for somebody else no I did try to make that distinction um the the clearer distinction I normally made was um what is the thing that needs acting on immediately if it was related to an event but where disorder was expected or something else um and then a separate paragraph that was clearly a comment
02:32:55 paragraph that was clearly a comment about the individual all right so you would try to separate out your comment from the more factual reporting that you were able to offer yes yes can we look at paragraph 110b of your witness
02:33:08 at paragraph 110b of your witness statement please paragraph 47 sorry page 47 paragraph
02:33:17 110b and this is further comment hm1 on your approach to um reporting
02:33:26 and you say this I was particular about my reporting it is not the case that I reported everything on everyone I reported a tiny fraction of what I could have I was part of hundreds of people's lives in some shape or form and I
02:33:37 lives in some shape or form and I reported only on what I assessed would contribute toward the SS's objectives
02:33:49 contribute toward the SS's objectives relating to public order extremism and crime how did you come to that understanding
02:33:54 in terms of what what you should and shouldn't
02:33:57 shouldn't report um well in terms of how did I come to that understanding it was um it was sort of instinctively obvious um that that was a key part of what I was
02:34:11 that that was a key part of what I was required to do um and the bit I weren't doing not to
02:34:23 do so you say instinctive was it based on your experience previous experience in special Branch or something else um well it was it was instinctive a judgment call on where I thought either
02:34:35 judgment call on where I thought either there was a requirement um or this whole concept about corroborating or dispelling um was was a key part of it as well but it was normally always in
02:34:46 as well but it was normally always in response to um somebody actually having asked
02:34:51 asked for um a specific question or a general question um which I was responding to right can we look at some examples of your reporting perhaps I can ask you with um reference to
02:35:04 with um reference to those um about your assessment of its the contribution of the information towards the SS's objectives can we start please with MPS 0739 617 it's c105
02:35:15 0739 617 it's c105 sirful um hm1 it's a report dated the 10th of December 19 92 so less than a year formally into your deployment but around a
02:35:32 around a year and it Bears your um identifier on the first page and if we could go down to the body of the report
02:35:43 please um it's a report on an individual we've redacted their details um for privacy reasons who's associated with the London boots Action Group and it reports that two people appeared at a
02:35:56 reports that two people appeared at a magistrates Court who answer charges of burglary following the national anti boots
02:35:58 boots demo uh it reports who they were represented by a solic who's described as an animal rights
02:36:09 as an animal rights sympathizer and the fact that the charge of burglary was reduced to causing criminal damage to
02:36:23 Windows um it it goes on um in the final uh two sentences of the second paragraph to report that one of the two had persuaded the other to plead guilty if all charges uh against them were dropped but the prosecution would
02:36:34 were dropped but the prosecution would not accept that and both had now pleaded not
02:36:41 not guilty firstly what did you consider to be the value to special branch of reporting on the appearance of individuals before a court before public proceedings before a court
02:36:52 proceedings before a court um well I think on this one this was all about um the fact that these these individuals were engaged in activity that brought them into this um or had them engage in this type
02:37:06 this um or had them engage in this type of activity um and that would that would be known to the police once they were charged wouldn't it um yes it would be yes um but here sort of an indication of um um it's being
02:37:25 of an indication of um um it's being talked about um why does that matter um well it might it might matter in terms of what they do next um how they're responding how they're contesting how they're approaching the whole um whether they're deterred by what happened in court whether this is spurring them on um but either way it's flagging two individuals that um are
02:37:37 flagging two individuals that um are engaged in criminal activity um that have come to that come to light in this way I mean there's nothing there's nothing particularly significant in its own right it's just um it's a it's a DOT
02:37:52 own right it's just um it's a it's a DOT uh um in on an investigation into people that have surfaced themselves through illegal activity connected specifically to a cause that was a subject of
02:38:05 to a cause that was a subject of Investigation how did you feel able to comment that their solicitor was an animal rights sympathizer um I think he um um if I can remember correctly
02:38:19 remember correctly um they build themselves as that um they provide
02:38:24 provide the their contact number to people likely to become engaged in criminality but as a list of providing their number to somebody in a professional capacity doesn't necessarily make them as an individual a sympathizer with the cause
02:38:35 individual a sympathizer with the cause of animal rights does it uh no but this person had openly Market openly marketed himself as such I assume to recall but the report doesn't say that the
02:38:47 the report doesn't say that the solicitor marketed themselves to animal rights activists as a as a lawyer who could help them it's implying isn't it that the solicitor themselves is a sympathizer with the cause of animal
02:38:58 sympathizer with the cause of animal rights but you're saying that's just because they represented lots of animal rights activists and sought to it's just part of the picture um why was that of interest to special Branch what a
02:39:11 interest to special Branch what a solicitor was doing in a professional capacity and who they were representing um well I think as a dot in
02:39:22 representing um well I think as a dot in an investigation um um someone that sort of openly aligned themselves with a particular cause um was more of Interest than notot of interest um as I say it's nothing particularly startling about this in isolation um but it had all the
02:39:33 isolation um but it had all the ingredients of um a building of a picture um as to what these individuals were involved with and and the support
02:39:45 were involved with and and the support they were relying upon um to help with their to help with their defense but what business was it of special Branch to know what solicitors who solicitors
02:39:59 to know what solicitors who solicitors were representing in their professional capacity um I think it was um when a solicitor
02:40:04 solicitor had openly and without attempted to conceal their support for um animal rights activity it was it rendered them part of a picture of if they are around there's probably an
02:40:17 they are around there's probably an indication that people are going to need that person's support um because of their likely involvement in criminality it's not it's nothing I say there's nothing this is just this is very ordinary this report um it's it's nothing other than a this
02:40:32 um it's it's nothing other than a this is what happened on that day with um by people of interest um to special Branch but it's suggesting that the solicitor might be a person of interest isn't it uh well not I mean he was a
02:40:46 isn't it uh well not I mean he was a person of interest I remember um but deliberately not named do you consider that it was appropriate to report on the activities of a solicitor acting in their professional capacity in that way well
02:40:57 professional capacity in that way well it wasn't so much a reporting it was an identification of something which was um as you say
02:41:10 as you say um open and not being disguised but it was part of the here's your complete picture of this somewhat trifling event um but was part of a bigger picture um in court you also reported on uh on the
02:41:23 court you also reported on uh on the face of it on discussions that had been had between defendants to criminal charges one persuading the other to plead guilty sorry one trying to persuade uh one attempting to plead
02:41:35 persuade uh one attempting to plead guilty so that all the charges against the other were dropped um which the prosecution didn't accept again what interest was it to special
02:41:46 it to special Branch or to policing generally the discussions that defendants might be having about whether or not to plead
02:41:58 having about whether or not to plead guilty well in isolation nothing um but to me that would give an indication of the closeness of the relationship that there was that level of um collusion but why not simply report that that a was close to B um could have done
02:42:16 that a was close to B um could have done um could have done um how do I know that well here's an indication of how I knew a bit of context setting did you consider there was any problem as a police officer with reporting what you leared about the approach of defendants to criminal
02:42:28 approach of defendants to criminal proceedings in the course of those proceedings um well I was I was either privy to or it was uh priv to what was being spoken about um within the the
02:42:42 being spoken about um within the the media that I was found myself so yes I'm absolutely aware of um concepts of legal privilege and certain perect um protected confessions
02:42:53 certain perect um protected confessions but this was um just a reporting of fact which as you identify was being played out in the public domain almost but the discussions um about whether or not to plead guilty weren't being played out in the public domain were they they were
02:43:09 the public domain were they they were being played out behind the scenes in a sense and that might have made it more of interest to be able to convey the closeness of that relationship in which such a discussion um would have been hatched discussed
02:43:27 um might want to know about my original question was this do you see a problem as a police officer with reporting information about what defendants to criminal
02:43:41 criminal proceedings are proposing to do in those criminal proceedings whilst they remain ongoing um well it wasn't actionable intelligence this is all protected information that isn't is is kept covert so this isn't with a view to inform ing
02:43:58 so this isn't with a view to inform ing um a defense or prosecution strategy or interfering in any way in the process itself but you didn't have ultimate control over what happened to your intelligence did you um no but I had um I put Faith in the Integrity of how information was handled that was a a
02:44:10 information was handled that was a a core tenant of um how special Branch um dealt with all of its covert intelligence and how it interacted with the more formal processes of prosecutions and disclosure
02:44:21 prosecutions and disclosure we take that down and move to another example please MPS 0744 095 it's c124 so it's the 9th of February
02:44:44 1993 and it Bears your identifier on the first page hm1 and then if we go to the body of the report um the name was ciphered at an earlier stage in the inquiry but that is a reference to Chris Bailey the his anonymity was waved so where you see name RCM that's an individual by the
02:45:03 name RCM that's an individual by the name of Chris Bailey do you remember him yes and it reports um the body of the report says of him um he remains committed to animal rights and direct action his personal participation however is limited to Street
02:45:17 however is limited to Street demonstrations pickets meetings and Book Fairs and then the final sentence this his affection for alcohol is undiminished what police interest was there in Mr B's use of
02:45:24 use of alcohol um well um alcohol has effects on people in many different ways um but if you took that as part of the wider
02:45:37 if you took that as part of the wider descriptor um of the limitations of that person's interest when it came to extremist activity I think adds to it adds to the adds to the lifestyle picture um of someone of interest why is their lifestyle in terms of whether or
02:45:51 their lifestyle in terms of whether or not they use alcohol and to what extent of interest to police looking at somebody's extremist activity um well they might decide on the back of that that um um there's there's a sort of
02:46:05 that um um there's there's a sort of there's not particularly any interest um um in that person because of a relatively if you like sent lifestyle punctuated by a um a like of alcohol I mean it's it's an observation it was a
02:46:17 mean it's it's an observation it was a it describes how someone could conduct themselves and it was in response to um when this individual is there what is
02:46:29 when this individual is there what is likely to be the mood influence on the mood and ability to influence um anything other than peaceful
02:46:44 demonstrations can we take that down and look at another example please MPS 0739 619 it's c126 so the 9th of February
02:46:52 1993 it's another report on court proceedings it Bears your identifier on the cover page hm1 and if we look at the body of the report
02:47:07 please again reporting on the appearance of individuals at a magistrates Court to answer charges arising from the national anti boots demonstration one pleads guilty and is
02:47:20 demonstration one pleads guilty and is bound over the other pleads guilty to a different offense and is conditionally discharged and ordered to pay compensation the report the final sentence of that main paragraph says
02:47:32 sentence of that main paragraph says this the boots Representatives present were obviously annoyed at the outcome since their estimate of the damaged cause was in excess of 800 of what interest to the police was it how the boots Representatives present in court reacted to the
02:47:47 in court reacted to the sentencing um well that's part of the ongoing
02:47:53 ongoing campaign against boots which um pickets were mounted um every week um and there was always a degree or there was always the potential for confrontation between boots security
02:48:06 confrontation between boots security staff um knowing about the campaign um and the different sort of um if you like approaches to how security staff tolerated stroke confronted um pi
02:48:19 tolerated stroke confronted um pi outside of Stores um every every single
02:48:30 outside of Stores um every every single week um so what's the interest there the interest there is an AG grieved um set of boot staff um security guards who might
02:48:37 might just um uh be a little bit more agitated the next time they see a picket well it doesn't say that it was the security guards present though does it it's the boots Representatives present in court yeah yeah it's just painting it's just painting a little bit of mood music um
02:48:54 painting a little bit of mood music um as to the level of um uh reaction um to what is ultimately quite a small event in
02:48:59 in court as far as you were concerned was it any part of your role to collect intelligence to inform Boots the private company the private entity as to what the activists were doing no absolutely
02:49:15 the activists were doing no absolutely not how did you know of their reaction on this occasion are you able to say at at the court appearance yes I think I might have been there the report says you were present but how did you know of the reaction of the boots
02:49:29 know of the reaction of the boots Representatives that they were obviously annoyed at the outcome because their their estimate was in excess of £800 um I'd observed it either their body language or their um some sort of other interaction or the
02:49:44 um some sort of other interaction or the whole posture that I I can't remember it would have been an observation on their reaction um in the in the courtroom
02:49:54 can we take that down please and look at another example MPS 07
02:50:09 45820 C2 c215 sir thank you um it's a report hm1 dated the 15th of February of 1994 it Bears your identifier um and if we look please at the body of the report
02:50:20 the body of the report we've redacted the name of the individual for privacy um but it says that this individual previously reported as privacy surname unknown is a regular London boots Action Group activist an
02:50:34 London boots Action Group activist an animal rights campaigner who supports direct
02:50:35 direct action her parental responsibilities will limit her potential for criminal activity she has struck up an unlikely romantically a on with fellow activist
02:50:48 romantically a on with fellow activist privacy what was the policing interest in in this individual's uh to quote unlikely romantic liaison with a fellow activist um well the peace interest there is
02:51:04 there is identifying um an association uh between an activist of
02:51:13 Interest so you're saying the the Romantic liaison represents an association between an activist of Interest
02:51:23 Interest so the subject do you mean the subject of the report or the the person there supposedly having some sort of relationship yeah so it talks about in that last sentence um the um struck up a
02:51:36 that last sentence um the um struck up a relationship um with um a known activist um I think if I miss if I read it correctly it's no longer on the screen oh I'm sorry it should be on the screen for you is can we fix so that you can see it when I'm asking you question I can see it now thank you um so what is
02:51:48 can see it now thank you um so what is the inter there the interest there is um
02:51:59 the inter there the interest there is um identifying um an association with um an activist uh and therefore indicating that there might be
02:52:07 be um a continued engagement um in this campaign as a result of that close association with an activist already engaged the report doesn't actually say any of that though does it it just simply remarks on the fact that there's a romantic Le aison well I think in my
02:52:22 a romantic Le aison well I think in my in my world that would indicate a very close
02:52:27 close Association um of of trust and possibly shared views and uh being present together are more often than outside of that
02:52:39 relationship can we take that one down please another example MPS 07396
02:52:45 07396 41 at c252 sir it's the 21st of June 1994
02:52:59 and it Bears your identifier can we look at the body of the report
02:53:11 please and you report here on the ending of a long-standing relationship between two
02:53:12 two individuals and then this as befits privacy's temperament the separation was a hysterical and noisy affair with the trading of obscenities and some damage to
02:53:25 to property of what interest to the police was the nature of the
02:53:31 separation um I'm just trying to remind myself who this might have been talking about um well um a a separation of this nature um between two
02:53:44 nature um between two individuals um who I'm assuming were of Interest with this level of animosity uh is an indicator of um mood anger
02:53:58 of um mood anger um and another dot on a person's disposition possibly um and propensity for um a course of action which in a
02:54:10 for um a course of action which in a more stable setting might not have been taken like I say it's it's a DOT it's about mood um it's about current temperament um and it's a current
02:54:21 temperament um and it's a current picture of how individuals um happen to be feeling as a result of something traumatic that's happened that are active on the scene but is an indication of mood in the context of an intensely private event isn't it what interest is that to the
02:54:32 that to the police uh well I think only only what I probably attempt to repeat um is um for
02:54:43 probably attempt to repeat um is um for individuals that are of interest um mood and temperament and volatility um triggers um are of interest in terms of where people are on their Journey with
02:54:54 where people are on their Journey with either a move towards direct traction or a move away from it um I say it's um in
02:55:06 a move away from it um I say it's um in isolation it's nothing as a DOT um it's an important part of understanding um where somebody is sort of from a stability perspective against a backdrop of their support for um a campaign that commits itself to direct action you've
02:55:17 commits itself to direct action you've said a number of times you've used the phrase as a dot um for someone of interest I mean where's The Logical end point for somebody of Interest was it seen as legitimate to report on pretty much anything they did private or
02:55:35 anything they did private or public because they were deemed a person of interest um not of anything but it's um it's it's you know to make the Judgment call each time of what is not relevant to a bigger investigation that
02:55:50 relevant to a bigger investigation that one's not privy to um but being close to um what is actually AA valuable part of assessing someone's um intent um or
02:55:59 assessing someone's um intent um or potential intent and the motivations and drivers is to report on someone's mood and what's affecting them um in their lives at a particular part of their Journey so um in that sense that type of insight um I don't think I would have been thanked for concealing had a
02:56:14 been thanked for concealing had a subsequent outcome of that acrimonious event um had led to um something happening absence that event it wouldn't have
02:56:24 done could we take that down please and have a look at MPS 07
02:56:38 42784 C32 c321 sir it's a report dated the 21st of March of 1995
02:56:55 and it's a report on Paul
02:57:05 grait and I want to ask you specifically about something in the second half of the uh body of the
02:57:17 report that says whilst remaining on the periphery of the animal rights movement graits motivation for removing himself from front line Duty has been accentuated by setbacks in his love life recently liberated from the burdensome clutches of long-standing girlfriend
02:57:28 clutches of long-standing girlfriend privacy grait was devastated when his recent overtures towards privacy were dealt a severe blow after being told that her latest Conquest was Robin
02:57:51 Lane you've explained um in answer to questions about previous reports why you regarded people's um interactions with each other their relationships Etc of Interest why did you word a report in this way why did you refer to gravit Mr grait being liberated from the
02:58:08 grait being liberated from the burdensome clutches of his long-standing girlfriend I think I'd have been I'd have been quoting um i' have been quoting
02:58:22 um i' have been quoting others why doesn't it say x claims that that grait has been recently liberated from the burdensome clutches of his long-standing girlfriend if you're quoting others yeah um I accept that I'm should possibly should have been is it in fact your phrasing which
02:58:37 phrasing which reveals um a level of disrespect for those on whom you were reporting um uh no if you if you don't mind I I don't I don't accept the disrespect B um yes I should have
02:58:49 disrespect B um yes I should have pointed pointed out perhaps see um some of the third hand um input into that assessment um but in no way uh is and was it attempted to sort of convey
02:59:01 was it attempted to sort of convey disrespect um I can see how that looks in reading it um uh but it'll been um a quoting of the mood of
02:59:16 others but you accept that it doesn't read in that way um I accept it doesn't read in that way yes it goes on grait was devastated when his recent overtures towards privacy were dealt a severe blow after being told
02:59:31 dealt a severe blow after being told that her latest Conquest was Robin Lane same question is that your language demonstrating a certain level of disrespect for these events and these people yeah I I accept I wrote this um I don't actually remember writing it um
02:59:42 don't actually remember writing it um but I accept that um it it is attributed to me um and um I um whatever others might think think um I I just um don't accept the disrespect aspect um
02:59:53 accept the disrespect aspect um regardless of how it reads so sorry it reads that way before I started asking you
03:00:01 you about um these examples we had on screen paragraph 110b of your witness statement in which you
03:00:12 of your witness statement in which you said I was particular about my reporting it is not the case that I reported everything on everyone do you consider looking at this report that you were in fact being particular about what you reported and how you reported
03:00:28 reported and how you reported it um well I I I accept I should I could have been more um accurate in what was behind um the language I was using and where I was getting that um where I getting that
03:00:45 getting that um where I getting that that description from can we take that down please and look at one more MPS 0246 818
03:00:53 0246 818 c486 c486 sir I'm grateful it's a report hm1 dated the 15th of January of
03:01:02 1996 sorry 15th of November 1996 so towards the end of your um deployment uh a report said to be bringing up to date information on the once prolific band of anarchists and
03:01:13 once prolific band of anarchists and animal rights activists who lived at a certain address in homon but I want to ask you please about paragraph five of the
03:01:25 report which says this if privacy was the archetypal preacher of action his efforts to realize his ideas were always confounded by his infuriating lethargy and his chronic inability to do anything at all which required any degree of
03:01:40 at all which required any degree of astuteness or intuition his only forms of exercise were lifting flagons of scrumpy and having sex with one or more of his three companions
03:01:52 of what interest was that comment that last comment to the police so I um I think this is in in the format of this report
03:02:05 format of this report um I think this is an example of uh a bit of editorial
03:02:15 editorial um control um that exercised from the raw reporting on a handwritten
03:02:26 handwritten proor uh which I would have done to the finished product of it leading leaving the office um the SDS office um for communicating to um The Wider machine I mean this this has all the Hallmarks of um a sort
03:02:42 the Hallmarks of um a sort of you know an edit to added to um office product using uh raw intelligence I would have provide in manuscript form uh on a on a single sheet on a single Pro for so I
03:02:58 single sheet on a single Pro for so I don't don't recognize all of this as as my language is that because you recognize that it is judgmental and unprofessional I don't recognize um sentence construction as
03:03:17 sentence construction as mine um I I recognize bits of it and I recognize a sort of sort of you the editorial
03:03:19 editorial inclusion by others of that finished
03:03:28 report can I break down your first answer when I first asked you are you suggesting that parts of this
03:03:35 this report are as written by you in a handwritten report that you would have handed in and other parts have been written later by somebody else oh yeah so that was um
03:03:50 else oh yeah so that was um so to be fair the methodology was um all of my reports were handwritten um on a proor um delivered at one of those two weekly meetings to the back office staff who would then um either type them up on
03:04:07 who would then um either type them up on another performer or on a report such as you've just showed me it's a sort of more I guess descriptive discursive um um update of a particular individual as opposed to an event uh so
03:04:18 as opposed to an event uh so not all of that is um is is by my hand and who else might have been responsible for writing content into a report such
03:04:36 for writing content into a report such as this one yeah so the people that were responsible uh were the the DS's um and and the dis in the office right so in 1996 in November that would have been detective Sergeant Webb detective sergeant mckintosh and detective
03:04:52 sergeant mckintosh and detective inspector Lambert so one of those three you suspect responsible for writing in that
03:04:55 that sentence um one of them must have been yes yeah are you quite sure that it wasn't you so the whole thing is not
03:05:07 wasn't you so the whole thing is not mine it's just um this sentence his only forms of exercise were lifting flagons of scrumpy and having sex with one or more of his three companions did you write that I don't recall writing that is it possible you did it's possible I
03:05:20 is it possible you did it's possible I did yes it is possible I don't recall it I really don't was there any sense in which when you wrote reports you included uh sentences of that nature uh in an attempt to create some sort of amusement amongst the people in the
03:05:31 amusement amongst the people in the office because of the nature of the comments no didn't really have time for that so no that wasn't my style at all
03:05:44 that so no that wasn't my style at all um was does this whether you wrote it or one of the managers wrote it in does it reflect a level of disrespect or dismissiveness towards some of the individuals who were being reported on by the SDS officers um I don't think indicates
03:05:55 officers um I don't think indicates disrespect it might um accept its um it's it's its clumsy language I don't think it indicates a culture of
03:06:07 think it indicates a culture of disrespect was there a culture of disrespect um absolutely not that's not my view um and that wasn't the case for me personally
03:06:37 um so I am about to move on i' I've two options I can move on to a new topic but it will take more than than 10 minutes or so there's also a further report that I wanted to ask hm1 about which would have to be done off stream so it may be that we could take the remaining uh minutes of today off of the stream if
03:06:55 minutes of today off of the stream if that can be done relatively quickly and I'll deal with that before we rise for the day certainly can that be done fairly
03:06:59 fairly rapidly yes I'll wait for the signal from the back of the
03:07:16 room
03:11:46 e e
03:12:35 don't think there's anybody at the back thank you very much we just have to wait a moment
03:12:38 a moment yes ah thumbs up thank
03:12:49 you in your witness statement and I can show you the paragraph if you need to be reminded of it and I think in your evidence uh this afternoon you've made it clear that it is individuals at the Top If I can call it
03:13:03 individuals at the Top If I can call it that of the animal rights extremists who were of primary interest to you have I
03:13:17 were of primary interest to you have I got that right yes sir you have um could I ask you uh to write down the names of the individuals the reason I I ask you to do that is so as to avoid inadvertently blurting out names that should be kept private I'm not asking you to do that uh on screen this instant
03:13:35 you to do that uh on screen this instant but wondering whether you could do it um uh when I Rise and hand it to somebody who can bring it here tomorrow yes of course sir thank
03:13:48 tomorrow yes of course sir thank you then we'll now adjourn until 10:00 tomorrow when we will resume thank you