Morning session examining HN1 Matt Rayner about his reporting on animal rights activism, categorization of ALF activists, and hunt sabotage activities. Detailed questioning about exaggerated threat assessments and predictions of violence that did not materialize.
00:26:27 e e
00:27:27 just it's
00:27:59 [Music]
00:28:16 thank you I'm told Third Time Lucky so let's see it seems so yes H1 I'm going to repeat the last question I asked you because your answer came up as inaudible on the transcript all right so what I put to you
00:28:33 I put to you or suggested to you was that the animal Liberation Front was not an organized group but more a label applied to individuals willing to take certain type of direct action and I asked if that was a Fair High Level summary
00:28:49 a Fair High Level summary yes and this report that's on the screen uh which was compiled right at the end of your deployment sets out these uh three uh types or three categories of
00:29:04 three uh types or three categories of activists the animal right activist the AL activist and the most committed Alf extremist was that categorization something that you started with in your deployment that you understood at the
00:29:16 deployment that you understood at the outset or is it something that you came to a sort of conclusion as a result of your experiences whilst deployed um I think it was more than
00:29:27 deployed um I think it was more than latter um it was um as I recall that an attempt
00:29:28 attempt to um categorize the various stages of progression um or belief um of passive support to non-p passive support to um
00:29:46 support to non-p passive support to um the more extremist um activity uh within something that was more an ideology as you say than a a formal group and was this therefore sort of looking back over your deployment report in a
00:29:58 your deployment report in a way um yeah so that report is um another one of these Composites um which was um
00:30:13 one of these Composites um which was um had several contributors as I recall um drawing on yes my uh my previous years um my my judgments um and other intelligence in the system when you say composite report can I just explore that for a moment um you
00:30:25 I just explore that for a moment um you may recall when you were sent a pack to make your statement that the inquiry also has what appears to be a draft version of this report not on the headed special Branch report proformer but simply a typed document that was found on a hard drive from the SDS do you
00:30:37 on a hard drive from the SDS do you recall seeing that yes I do and that does not contain all of the information that is in this version that's on the screen and equally some of the
00:30:48 screen and equally some of the information in that earlier draft did not make its way into this do you remember that being brought to your attention yes and so when you say this is a composite bearing that in mind can you can you explain what you mean by that
00:31:05 that um yes by compos I mean um it would have contained information from uh different individuals um different um sources of
00:31:16 individuals um different um sources of information um from within the system um other people's contributions um on the assessment aspect and um some of the sort of the broader descriptions um and um and also part of it will have been in response to specific
00:31:24 specific questions um but my answers F into when you say information from different individuals and different sources of information from within the
00:31:39 sources of information from within the system this document the 9th of December 1996 report was found on a hard drive
00:31:51 1996 report was found on a hard drive taken from the offices of the SDS do you follow yes so it appears on the face of it to have been created on an SDS computer yes when you say other individuals do you mean other undercover officers so part of that would have come from um information reports from other
00:32:03 from um information reports from other undercover officers um but the SDS was part of a wider machine um a wider a wider bit of these sort of apparatus uh within the broader special Branch so you suggesting that somebody within the SDS
00:32:15 suggesting that somebody within the SDS so for example at one of the management team might have consulted other intelligence available to special branch and used it in compiling this report um well they would have had routine access to that um for example through the
00:32:28 to that um for example through the animal rights National index which was a a national capability um and other special branches from around the country which fed in um to um The Wider assessment Machinery so there was
00:32:39 assessment Machinery so there was routine access to that when putting together if you like summaries but attempted to make it as reasonably clear as possible as to what was going on right I'm going to continue to ask you questions about this report but
00:32:50 questions about this report but obviously make it clear if your suggestion is that you were not responsible for the things that I'm asking you about and we can we can delve into that at the time
00:33:02 into that at the time firstly the um paragraph three of the report
00:33:11 please and this is the paragraph that seeks to draw the lines between the three categories that are set out in paragraph one so the animal rights activists the ALF EXT activist and the
00:33:26 activists the ALF EXT activist and the ALF extremist and I'm just going to read some parts of paragraph 3 um out before I ask you questions so paragraph 3 begins the road from animal rights activism to ALF activism that
00:33:37 rights activism to ALF activism that being the generally accepted term for the use of direct action which is often against the law in furtherance of the cause starts with a philosophical decision and a Quantum
00:33:56 decision and a Quantum Leap first question is that your wording hm1 um that looks like my wording yeah yeah the definition there is that Al activism is a generally accepted term for the use of direct action which is
00:34:10 for the use of direct action which is often against the law in furtherance of the cause do you agree with that now looking back um yeah there was a strong correlation uh uh between Alf direct action um and
00:34:30 criminality if somebody was using Direct action which was not against the law in furtherance of the cause of animal rights would you have termed them an Alf activist um no but they might have had Alf
00:34:42 Alf sympathies and would having Alf sympathies be sufficient to label them an Alf activist in your
00:34:54 an Alf activist in your intelligence um well sometimes it's difficult to make that clinical distinction but it with those sympathies um it would have been an
00:35:06 um it would have been an indication um that um they were on that Journey but would you have called them termed them described them as an Al activist based merely on sympathies without them having taken any action
00:35:17 without them having taken any action that was against the law um yeah so um uh my definition of activism are are people that were campaigning um overtly in support of a cause um in which was
00:35:31 in support of a cause um in which was attracted to people that went towards those extreme ends um uh when it came to criminality so activism for me starts with campaigning
00:35:43 activism for me starts with campaigning on the streets uh that level of devotion understood I'm more interested in the label Al would you apply that to somebody who was taking direct action that wasn't against the law um so I
00:35:54 that wasn't against the law um so I think it would depend on the individual um some people um profess to have Al sympathies um and we're quite proud of those sympathies um it indicated a state of mind um it indicated um a level of
00:36:10 of mind um it indicated um a level of devotion um and for many it was a if you like a intellectual philosophical badge of honor to wear those sort of those feelings on their sleeve so going back
00:36:21 feelings on their sleeve so going back then to my question a person with those sympathies sympathies for the AL would they have been labeled in your intelligence reporting as an Al activist um I think if coupled with um some form
00:36:31 some form of campaigning
00:36:38 yes but lawful campaigning um I don't think I'd have
00:36:49 campaigning um I don't think I'd have made that distinction at that stage um you could be sympathetic to um um Al activity which was um an ideology that was committed to direct action um while being while being totally lawful yes I mean
00:37:02 while being totally lawful yes I mean all philosophical beliefs and all sorts of things often don't reach anything remotely criminal and so a person in that category that you've just
00:37:16 that category that you've just described would you have labeled them an Alf activist yes or no I think if they were um in terms of what I knew about their beliefs and their commitment to um if you like campaigning um I might have used the term activist or sympathizer what about
00:37:31 sympathizer what about Alf um well if they if they themselves had indicated um support for what the ALF as an ideology was committed to um that would have got them certainly into the ALF sympathizer category
00:37:44 the ALF sympathizer category yes let's go back to the report if we can I read out the first sentence I'm going to skip the second and start where it picks up the Quantum Leap for the
00:37:58 it picks up the Quantum Leap for the Earth while do you see that the Quantum Leap for the earthw law abiding and well-meaning citizen is the First Act of Destruction or damage the first window broken or the first slogan dored for the
00:38:12 broken or the first slogan dored for the many for many sorry the majority in fact this is quite traumatic and stressful enough but nevertheless the activist has now joined the ranks of the
00:38:26 now joined the ranks of the AL for want of a better description the window breaker slogan etcher or verbal abuser can be termed a low-level Al
00:38:36 activist does it follow well sorry at first I should ask you do you think hm1 that those are your words yes and does it follow from that description that a person who engaged in verbal abuse by which I presume you mean perhaps
00:38:50 which I presume you mean perhaps shouting potentially offensive things at a demonstration or pick it would that be a fair understanding of what you mean by verbal abuse um it could be somebody who engaged in that sort of
00:39:04 be somebody who engaged in that sort of activity in the course of animal rights activism might find themselves labeled a low-level Al activist in your intelligence um it that could happen
00:39:22 yes and so that I understand if somebody was considered to be an Al activist did you therefore consider it Justified per se to report on them
00:39:39 them yes do you think looking back that that draws the line in the correct place in terms of labeling somebody an Al activist somebody who goes to a demonstration and uses offensive language is sufficient sorry I think as
00:39:56 language is sufficient sorry I think as an indicator um of mood um and sentiment and commitment and mindset and what might be the um of that if you like that progression which for many people it wasn't but at the time um there was that's a legitimate indicator of
00:40:07 legitimate indicator of intent and for the for the people for whom it wasn't that indicator they would nonetheless find themselves potentially if they came into contact with you the
00:40:25 if they came into contact with you the subject of a report that put was put on a special Branch file yes it could be it's it's all case specific so um there's the um if you like the the more cerebral quieter discreet um activist that doesn't actually need to do any of this more
00:40:38 more overt um if you like bringing themselves to attention um and is therefore um probably um in certain cases um able to do a lot more in
00:40:55 cases um able to do a lot more in supporting The Wider aspirations of the extreme end of the ALF Community for want of a better grouping but somebody who doesn't provide that support to the extreme end of the animal Liberation
00:41:08 Liberation Front and simply engages in noisy possibly pickets possibly using offensive language on occasion they would nonetheless fall under the bracket Alf activist so they could do the category I was just referring to were
00:41:21 category I was just referring to were those that don't necessarily do any of that um but are more if you like um intellectually structurally engag in discreet support and getting more done
00:41:32 discreet support and getting more done without bringing themselves to attention in this particular area that latter group would they were of interest to you and to special Branch were they um well yes well they were the sort
00:41:44 they um well yes well they were the sort of if you like the well-known names that were a sort of well established uh intelligence uh of intelligence interest um and had been for some time and can
00:41:57 um and had been for some time and can you just explain in what way or way they were of intelligence interest well either those that had already Associated themselves um with acts of violence or extreme um activity um such as incend
00:42:10 extreme um activity um such as incend campaigns contamination campaigns um or discret support for those um that were engaged in that type of activity um but when So when you say Associated themselves with acts of violence do you mean well convicted for for example yes
00:42:23 mean well convicted for for example yes but previously in answer to my question you seem to be suggesting correct me if I'm wrong that there was some sort of intellectual more discreet type of
00:42:35 intellectual more discreet type of activist and I had understood that those were not the people you were saying who were committing and being convicted of of those sorts of crimes no so in that category we're talking about now I'm talking about those that were engaged in for example the the spreading of the
00:42:46 for example the the spreading of the message um the support for others that were prepared to risk their Liberty um and if you like the more um influential Direction
00:43:06 more um influential Direction of those fully committed to um extreme a faction yes and my question then was in what way were those individuals of interest to special Branch um as influential figures capable of shaping people on that Journey um from armchair supporters to those that might want to engage um on the the far
00:43:19 might want to engage um on the the far end of that Spectrum right so it was the
00:43:27 end of that Spectrum right so it was the influence they were capable of having on others who might carry out action which was of interest to you into special Branch yeah and I think they were already of interest because of either what they' done and been convicted for or um sort of household names if you
00:43:43 or um sort of household names if you like um are those respected figures that were prepared to go the whole way um in the name of animal Liberation sorry to press the point but I I am I'm having difficulty understanding whether you are making a distinction between those convicted of
00:43:57 distinction between those convicted of taking action in the name of the AL and those who were merely or merely influencing others but not taking action themselves or whether those are one and the same group in your well I'm not
00:44:08 the same group in your well I'm not making a distinction in terms of who's of interest um they um all those categories it well both those categories that you've summarized there um would be of
00:44:20 interest can we go back please to the report paragraph three that's on the screen and pick up um where I left off so I left off the activist has now joined the ranks of the AL
00:44:32 joined the ranks of the AL Etc and it carries on the activist should he or she persist will probably not progress much in terms of severity of the actions taken but over time will
00:44:48 of the actions taken but over time will become more comfortable in carrying them out and may become known as someone who might be prepared to facilitate more serious actions by means of for example providing shelter for rescued animals in any event the low-level Al activist
00:45:07 in any event the low-level Al activist has made a vast step ahead of the animal rights activist who merely pickets demonstrates or attends uh meetings over the page please to paragraph
00:45:20 4 of the relatively small number of activists compared to the movement overall who embark on criminal activity and support of animal rights Andor Liberation an even smaller number go on
00:45:34 Liberation an even smaller number go on to Advocate and Carry Out extreme forms of criminal actions those few are the ALF extremists is that definition at paragraph for your your definition
00:45:49 paragraph for your your definition hm1 um I mean if it's not word for word I I do agree with
00:45:58 it if we go on to paragraph five please the quantum sorry I'll wait for it to appear enlarged on your screen hm1 thank you the Quantum Leap that the extremist has made is an acceptance of
00:46:13 extremist has made is an acceptance of the need to cause serious harm to people and property if the cause is to be Advanced and an equal acceptance of the fact that he or she is willing to surrender personal Liberty and comfort as a natural consequence of it
00:46:30 is that your definition hm1 um yeah similarly I I mean I do agree with that um even if it's not word for word did the AL not have a policy of not causing harm to any animal human or
00:46:51 otherwise um well um those policies on that particular issue um I I don't remember there being any sort of word for word agreement um and that's you would get different views on
00:47:09 that's you would get different views on that depending on what it was considered as inevitable if you like collateral damage in serving The Wider cause right but collateral damage is not what this report says in this sentence
00:47:22 what this report says in this sentence is it it says an acceptance of the need to cause serious harm to people and property if the cause is to be Advanced so use suggesting that as
00:47:35 Advanced so use suggesting that as collateral damage the AL was was willing to contemplate it being necessary to cause serious harm to people
00:47:43 people um I I think every individual would have a different view on that um the prevailing the prevailing um thought was no one um animal War person should be harmed uh
00:47:55 animal War person should be harmed uh when it came to direct action but um in terms of the extreme end of the level of activity associated with um Arsenal incu and contamination campaigns I mean it was there would some
00:48:10 campaigns I mean it was there would some that would believe some were prepared to accept that something might happen that was not planned that could result inadvertently um in harm but yeah the overriding principle absolutely was no
00:48:21 overriding principle absolutely was no one person or animal um should be should be
00:48:22 be harmed bearing that in mind do you consider that what's written there at the beginning of paragraph five is accurate um yes I do um there I think um
00:48:37 accurate um yes I do um there I think um so just to remind people of what we were talking about here um there was a central Focus um for the level of Victory Orum hatred um that led to this the extreme
00:48:52 hatred um that led to this the extreme level of activity and it was a movement committed to stopping animal experimentation um both through large lacks of economic damage but also a targeting of particular individuals involved in that
00:49:03 involved in that industry um and it was so so I think that yes and answer to your question I do think that's that's accurate that statement um but you get right to the heart of how
00:49:18 right to the heart of how individuals had slightly different views of the level of violence collateral damage that might be acceptable um when setting out to engage in this type of activity isn't it important given what you've
00:49:29 isn't it important given what you've just said about the variety of views or wouldn't it have been important for your intelligence report summarizing the position to have reflected that rather than to assert that the extremist
00:49:44 than to assert that the extremist accepts the need to cause serious harm to
00:49:50 to people um well I think in that small number of extremists um
00:49:55 um that this report attempts to summarize um in certain cases is you know that that that would have been true um just in in sentiment and intent um if if not
00:50:09 in in sentiment and intent um if if not a consequence of the actual action taken right can we pick up again with some more of what's in paragraph uh five please I'm going to skip the sentence that begins having made that leap and
00:50:23 that begins having made that leap and pick up again um at the end of The Fifth Line to say that they consider the most severe crimes including murder as completely justifiable indeed necessary is not to be melodramatic the assassination of a prominent animal abuser or Hunter has
00:50:36 prominent animal abuser or Hunter has been and continues to be under active consideration and without doubt will one day be
00:50:49 attempted the incidental death of a human being by Design or by accident when such a thing inevitably occurs will be regarded as a conse consquence of the war likewise the incidental death of
00:51:02 war likewise the incidental death of captive animals which will die anyway
00:51:13 captive animals which will die anyway especially if such deaths deny abuses their profit is both acceptable and Justified there remains however a contentious question over the intentional killing of captive animals which sorely taxes senior Al extremists personal injury be it
00:51:25 extremists personal injury be it physical or psychological to individuals willingly involved in any industry or Pastime in which animals are subjected to abuse or exploitation is a primary objective for the AL
00:51:43 extremist again are those assertions that either you wrote or you stand by um I do stand by them yes the suggestion that the AL extremists um as you termed them
00:51:55 extremists um as you termed them considered that um even murder uh was completely justifiable indeed necessary do you stand by the assertion that that is not being melodramatic um well it wasn't being melodramatic um there were certain that
00:52:10 melodramatic um there were certain that did hold there were certain people that did hold that view whether armchair views or
00:52:14 views or otherwise that was the sentiment but not by everyone when you say whether armchair views or otherwise can I explore what you mean by that please um well um I think there's that huge Gulf between um being supportive
00:52:30 huge Gulf between um being supportive and not losing sleep over the extreme actions of others um and those that actually go on to do it but the level of I mean there was a lot of um activity
00:52:41 I mean there was a lot of um activity that covered the whole of this spectrum going on so there was there was plenty of sort of influencing and influential campaigning and people on a journey which went in different directions at all at all times um and there were
00:52:54 all at all times um and there were plenty of views out there the most extreme um views of which fell into that category um where harm was just an inevitable part of if the war as
00:53:06 inevitable part of if the war as categorized in terms of the term armchair um activist can I can I give
00:53:18 armchair um activist can I can I give you an example to see if we can shed any light on it the inquiry has a report from uh Robert Lambert from the 1980s which reports that at a meeting of London Greenpeace Jeff shepher uttered the words that all Viv sectors should be
00:53:35 the words that all Viv sectors should be shot um the evidence the inquiries heard is that if he did say that it it wasn't something to be taken seriously and if I'm right my understanding of your evidence is you
00:53:47 understanding of your evidence is you didn't consider Jeff sheeper once you got to know him as somebody who was likely to engage in that sort of behavior is that fair um well I can I unpick the question yes so um would you the first question is would you consider somebody who
00:53:58 is would you consider somebody who simply said at a meeting all Viv sector should be shot uh to meet the definition um that you have in this report or the
00:54:10 um that you have in this report or the definition of an armchair activist okay so if we we talk about individual specifically here because the example you give me JY f m so he um uh that was not behavior that um I had ever seen um
00:54:24 not behavior that um I had ever seen um him engage in during the time I knew him that would not be something he would ever in to my mind dream of saying in public or want to come to attention in that way um Jeff's views on the world through previous convictions were
00:54:39 through previous convictions were already well known um in terms of the the more sort of ideological belief um in a level of campaigning but where the extreme ends of direct direct action was a correct course of action
00:54:54 course of action um that was a view he held um but it wasn't shouted from the rooftops um but it was it was one he genuinely held sorry that the idea that all Viv sectors should be shot no I no I never
00:55:05 sectors should be shot no I no I never heard him say that um and uh but I was
00:55:20 heard him say that um and uh but I was aware of his commitment to and belief in doing what was necessary um to end animal experimentation but if somebody going
00:55:32 experimentation but if somebody going back to the premise in this report if so and your answer to my question if somebody an individual said that sort of thing at a meeting informally a throwaway remark all Viv sectors should be shot would that in your mind have
00:55:50 be shot would that in your mind have caused you to reach the conclusion that extreme Al activists considered murder to be completely justifiable indeed necessary is that the sort of comment
00:56:02 necessary is that the sort of comment that led you to that conclusion um so in isolation um It's tricky to be able to answer that I mean if I if my judgment have been um those were the the comments of a um if you like a a hote head um not to be
00:56:13 you like a a hote head um not to be trusted um or a Rabel Rouser um I'd probably added that judgment um but anyone that's prepared to offer that
00:56:26 anyone that's prepared to offer that view in public is certainly um probably worthy of a little bit more little bit more
00:56:31 Focus perhaps if we look at an example in this report um and it's the only um example if we turn to page four please there is a section on at the top on Brendan
00:56:43 Brendan MCN and you had this to say about him I'll come back to your reporting on him but in this final report you say mcnali is a paranoid Enigma he frequently drops
00:56:56 is a paranoid Enigma he frequently drops out of animal rights activist activities for considerable Peri periods his one Confidant is EAB if you need to check the cipher list please do his I'll pause to let you do
00:57:26 that yes his one Confidant is EAB who worships him and who would be recog ized by anyone in the AL Inner Circle as his Emissary she takes his faith in her very seriously and constantly denies any knowledge of his whereabouts or activities MCN believes that an
00:57:38 activities MCN believes that an assassination preferably of a Viva sector is inevitable and desirable indeed necessary he will probably do it himself one day that is the only mention if you take
00:57:50 day that is the only mention if you take it from me um in this report of anything to do with an assassination or murder is it possible that the conclusion at the outset of the report or the assertion
00:58:02 outset of the report or the assertion that is made in the generality was in fact based on your observation of one activist
00:58:14 activist Alone um well with regards to this individual um I don't recall that particular comment about um inevitability um of what this claims he will be involved in as being as being mine um I do accept
00:58:26 mine um I do accept uh I didn't know him that well and I certainly wasn't one of his confidence um so this will be I think um the product of not just my assessment um or comments um but
00:58:42 comments um but others you didn't during your deployment uncover any plot to murder anybody did you no so can you help us the assertion earlier on we can go back to it at paragraph 5 um if we can please
00:59:08 the assertion that uh Al extremists consider the most severe crimes including murder as completely justifiable indeed necessary where did that come from
00:59:16 from um well it it came from a knowledge that in terms of support for um and sentiments at the extreme men that this
00:59:31 sentiments at the extreme men that this was acceptable were the views of certain individuals CU they they espoused them I'm not going to ask you to say the names out loud but are you able to give the names of the people you say fell into that
00:59:42 into that category
00:59:46 category um well I guess there were those that were already known for those beliefs through the level of activity they'd
01:00:00 through the level of activity they'd already been convicted for well so can I can I explore that with you had had any of these activists with whom you you were associating being convicted of murder um not of murder no or of intentionally causing Serious injury to a
01:00:12 a human uh not what I know of not not not that level of intent no so what was it about the things that they have been convicted of that led you to conclude that they considered that even murder might be completely justifiable and
01:00:25 might be completely justifiable and necessary well I think so the sentiment in certain um certain articles um editorial
01:00:26 editorial in uh Publications like the um Al supporters group um occasionally would
01:00:39 supporters group um occasionally would have Anonymous articles written by those that for whom that level of activity if not
01:00:40 not desired um uh just might be um a necessary part of the war I mean these these these views were held by very few but they were views that percolated and
01:00:55 but they were views that percolated and were present um not necessarily by those that ever ended up doing it but there was in the shaping of that level of ideology at the extreme end those those views were were were
01:01:08 present you understand do you that from the evidence that the inquiry has shown you that this report ended up being forwarded for the attention of the Home
01:01:20 attention of the Home Secretary do you remember seeing that in your witness pack uh now you yes now you I do recall it now yes and so for the attention of the Home
01:01:34 attention of the Home Secretary a report said that the an a the ALF
01:01:43 the ALF extremists as defined considered murder as completely justifiable and indeed necessary do you think there is an extent to which this report exaggerated the
01:01:53 the position um so so factually there were factually that is true um it's not widely held um it's only among a very
01:02:07 widely held um it's only among a very very few um but it does indicate uh the level of vitriol and passion and commitment to ending um ending ending that industry right the assertion that the assassination of a prominent animal
01:02:20 assassination of a prominent animal abuser or Hunter has been and continues to be under active consideration was that based on your intelligence
01:02:32 um I might have I think I probably agreed that that was a possible outcome um of as a level of sort of an intensity um of the sort of campaign
01:02:46 intensity um of the sort of campaign grew if it was if it was if it was going to grow um at the time at the speed it was growing um it seemed to me that that assessment from being at the heart of the movement that sometimes did speak
01:03:00 the movement that sometimes did speak with this level of commitment to needing to take it further um seemed to me that was a possible outcome um I didn't so I wouldn't have contested that um as um as something that needed to be
01:03:18 flagged and what about the assertion that
01:03:31 follows uh then that it will without doubt one day be attempted is that an exaggeration in your view
01:03:41 um so I didn't those aren't my words that sort of level of assertion um but I don't I don't yeah I don't I don't contest the fact that it seemed to me
01:03:53 contest the fact that it seemed to me that even if not intended um that could be that could well be an outcome or be orbe it
01:03:56 orbe it unlikely right but with without doubt will one day be attempted is quite different from unlikely that it will be attempted isn't it yeah I don't remember the discussion over likely or without doubt
01:04:08 doubt um I think that might have been in the final report which probably wasn't in my drafting but I I still come back to the fact that the level of activity was such that um when it comes to letter bombs aroms um and the degree to which people
01:04:26 aroms um and the degree to which people were prepared to do um or engage in this this level of activity uh there must have been the possibility that in some Arena or other be it in the anti section industry be it
01:04:44 be it in the anti section industry be it um on the you the hunt sabot field where the level of violence on a weekly basis was
01:04:45 was really um uh was was really quite high on both sides um and indeed there were
01:04:57 on both sides um and indeed there were casualties there so I yeah um could have could have could have toned it down a bit but it's
01:05:08 bit but it's still um I think largely accurate um as an assessment um if um if taken in the round well how can the words without doubt will one day be attempted be accurate if your evidence today is that you thought it
01:05:20 unlikely um well I I don't remember writing uh writing those exact descriptors but it's I mean I don't think I'd have sort of splitting hairs here um personally
01:05:34 personally um I think there's an overlap between those two categories which wouldn't really have made any difference to this assessment um which was designed to actually convey the message that um for a very small number of people this is
01:05:49 a very small number of people this is serious stuff and is the explanation for how there is so much of this activity going on with the consequences that it is having right hm one that the the
01:06:00 is having right hm one that the the report is not vague is it it it suggests that murder which is the intentional killing of a human being or causing them serious harm which results in their death
01:06:13 death intentionally will without doubt one day be
01:06:17 be attempted that if I'm understanding your evidence correctly is not what you assessed the position to be in
01:06:22 in fact um no I would have I would have assessed in in terms of the way people spoke um that it was a possibility that
01:06:34 spoke um that it was a possibility that would be the case yes A possibility but not something without doubt will one b day be attempted um they're two different things aren't they I don't remember the without doubt but yeah I mean these are sort of I guess the the the semantics of Assessments that need to
01:06:52 to convey um the the the potency of a level that people are prepared to go and are going to um in support of their um so whether it's whether it's definitely highly
01:07:06 definitely highly likely um is you until it happens no one will know um but it was it was on the verge of that level of activity being you know being the outcome of someone's desire to go further of murder being the outcome of someone's desire to go well i' I've never been in any
01:07:20 go well i' I've never been in any discussion about about murder but in terms of you know the sort of the intellectual round the fireplace um discussion that how acceptable that would be um in for some that was deemed
01:07:36 would be um in for some that was deemed to be um a level of activity that would would be
01:07:41 accepted I'm going to leave this paragraph shortly but before I do can I put it this way do you accept that if this paragraph ended up on the desk of the Home
01:07:53 desk of the Home Secretary that Home Secretary would have been left with the impression a that Alf extremists were uh plotting
01:08:04 a that Alf extremists were uh plotting actively to murder somebody probably in the Viv section industry and all right
01:08:15 the Viv section industry and all right I'll read the words I'm being challenged so I will go back to the words the Home Secretary would have been left uh with the impression uh that the an Alf extremists considered murder to be completely justifiable and that the assassination
01:08:29 justifiable and that the assassination of a prominent animal abuser or Hunter continued to be under active consideration and see that it would without doubt one day be attempted that's the impression this report would have given to the Home Secretary if the Home Secretary read it isn't it um well
01:08:42 Home Secretary read it isn't it um well if I was the Home Secretary reading this um I would have bearing in mind this was um this was all very topical at the time so any Home Secretary um none of this would have been new um not just because
01:08:58 would have been new um not just because of what these reports provided them but just because of the consequences um of what was going on um in this particular era If I Was A Home Secretary reading
01:09:09 era If I Was A Home Secretary reading this um I would have taken away that um there is a a level of commitment um and vital and anger and
01:09:20 commitment um and vital and anger and determination um to which everything was nothing was off the table in terms of the lengths that certain people albe it a small number would go to um to um in
01:09:32 a small number would go to um to um in this as I say uh War that's the murder does not feature prominently here um it's a it's a much broader assessment um of um of activity across the board but in this particular how far can it go
01:09:47 in this particular how far can it go type message um I think if I was a Home Secretary I wouldn't be making the distinction between um incur campaigns arson letter bombs and the likes um
01:09:59 bombs and the likes um and murder being next on the sort of scale of
01:10:06 escalation all right so incidental harm or risking incidental harm to um a person you're say you're suggesting
01:10:17 person you're say you're suggesting might have progressed to intentionally harming even murdering an individual yes you the the loose language around you individual that were deemed to be heavily Associated
01:10:29 Associated um in in in this world you know the Public Enemy Number ones of the Viv section World um quickly
01:10:41 section World um quickly um you'd quickly get to among many um this concept of um if they did lose their life um no one would shed a toar but that's different from murder isn't it so it's totally different from murder but I mean in terms of the level of
01:10:59 but I mean in terms of the level of spoken about sort of atmospherics around people that were um even for those that would never even break a window Public Enemy Number One couple that with um the more sort of violent um and the progression towards violence that focus of vital against a certain individual
01:11:10 of vital against a certain individual almost a frenzied um loathing uh I think
01:11:19 does I thought this certainly helped to understand how for some um murder probably might well have been the next
01:11:28 and it was certainly talked about in terms of um that being an acceptable casualty of war that level of activity um
01:11:35 um against individuals such as that final question just in this in to the extent that you've said that some of these might not be your exact words can
01:11:51 these might not be your exact words can you help us with whose words they might be who might have drafted this yeah so um be careful with names of course please yeah no sure uh so these sort of General assessments um for broader
01:12:04 General assessments um for broader customers um for example as you say the Home Secretary in this case um would have been drafted um by the uh the management in the SDS office um they
01:12:16 management in the SDS office um they would have had contributions from The Wider um special Branch um animal rights National
01:12:27 Branch um animal rights National index uh um analysts assessors seniors um and then it would have gone up through the chain of command um to into the home se's office in this particular case but in terms sorry sorry sorry in terms of who sat at a computer and wrote for example the uh
01:12:46 a computer and wrote for example the uh phrase without doubt it will one day be attempted who are you suggesting that would have been someone in the SDS office
01:13:00 office um yes um unless unless contested along the way or unless sort of um edited by by seniors um uh as it went up the um command chain probably part of a discussion as well um they were quite um carefully drafted uh those reports all right so possible in the first instance that somebody in the SDS
01:13:13 first instance that somebody in the SDS office drafted a version of this report that then went up the chain and was edited further up the chain is that what you're suggesting that's what normally happened yes um people always like to
01:13:31 happened yes um people always like to make tweaks and sort of um provide their own perspective but but also sometimes uh when it comes to specific bits of detail are either able to amend um correct or add to and um we see at the very bottom if we could just show hm1 please the final
01:13:43 we could just show hm1 please the final page this Pro it seems to be a pro forer into which the evidence sorry the intelligence is typed and at the bottom it contains a space for the superintendent to sign it off in your
01:13:55 superintendent to sign it off in your experience is that as high up the chain as it would have gone in terms of editing before it was signed off um if it was going to the Home Secretary it would have probably gone uh a couple
01:14:05 a couple further up the chain so by that I mean the chief superintendent um and then the commander so you would expect a report like this
01:14:16 so you would expect a report like this to be looked at by those individuals in the chain and potentially potentially edited also by them um not necessarily edited but they would have G been given the opportunity as certainly if it was going to a secretary of
01:14:28 going to a secretary of state um just sticking on this final page of the report uh please um after the
01:14:36 the definitions or the descriptions of Al activists and extremists that I've um gone through with you there appears a list of individuals of activists um you saw one example in the description of
01:14:48 saw one example in the description of Brendan MCN but there are a number and in so far as we have not redacted their names for privacy they appear here at the end of the
01:15:01 the end of the report um if you need any time to check the ciphers LTD and pjz um on your Cipher list before I carry on please do than
01:15:13 [Music]
01:15:30 okay thank you and please take it from me that the final person on the list who is listed as surname unknown and unidentified is not one of the main subjects of the report it's a name mentioned in passing right so put that to one side please for the purpose of
01:15:48 to one side please for the purpose of the question I'm going to ask you um the report uh here purported to list uh the top Echelon the top Alf extremists at the time that the report was written and you'll see here that the vast majority of them are listed as having only
01:16:02 of them are listed as having only mentions so they don't so far have a registry file within special
01:16:13 registry file within special Branch um does it surprise you that the people who were identified at least in part on the basis of your intelligence as being amongst the top Alf
01:16:21 Alf extremists did not even have a registry file at special Branch um not necessarily uh the
01:16:33 the uh the mentions is a description of
01:16:39 of uh of of in itself um those could go on for um some considerable time before if you like breaching the threshold uh of what then becomes um a an
01:16:51 becomes um a an RF uh so doesn't surprise me no if somebody had a number of mentions
01:17:04 if somebody had a number of mentions that indicated that they were linked to ALF style direct action would you not have expected them to have had a registry file opened on them um I don't remember what the threshold was um but it's
01:17:19 um it was yeah I don't recall what the threshold was but it's not necessarily an indicator the absence a record file um the people themselves are are not of sufficient
01:17:30 sufficient interest can we have a look please at two examples of reporting on the question of how um or what sort of
01:17:41 question of how um or what sort of decisions were made to open files please two reports forgive me are you about to leave this document um so I I I am yes uh for now in which case may I interrupt you by asking one or two questions about thank you um you have provided me
01:17:56 thank you um you have provided me overnight with a hand written list of those
01:18:02 those uh open quote of interest close quote um that list contains 15 names if you look please at the document which we've been uh examining at page
01:18:23 three there is a list there of names in this document plus one other which appears on the previous page at the
01:18:32 bottom there are 22 names
01:18:44 there of those 22 names only three appear in your list they are LTD someone who is anonymous for privacy reasons and Brendan mcnali
01:18:59 can you explain why there is this um apparently striking difference at least in numerical terms between the two lists um yeah of course sir I um so in response to your question uh which I
01:19:10 response to your question uh which I forgive if I misinterpreted it I um I wrote down um at speed from memory um those individuals that were um of interest within specifically
01:19:26 were um of interest within specifically the London scene which I was arriving on and who were there um already and already of interest um as opposed to The Wider um if you're like the wider catchment of I guess more strategic
01:19:42 catchment of I guess more strategic figures um who were not on the London scene um but were as part of the targeting obviously um first and foremost in my mind as I built up knowledge of of of the Strategic picture so I answered your
01:19:57 Strategic picture so I answered your questions through the lens of um on the London scene associated with those
01:20:10 London scene associated with those likely to congregate around um groups of interest that were um of interest um to customers stakeholders that was I drew on my memory um to list those individuals not the wider strategic um out of London figures for that list um I think if I'd had more time um I know the
01:20:25 think if I'd had more time um I know the list grew as I became more knowledgeable of more familiar with the wider tasking but I say I answered it through the lens of the immediate Montage um through the lens of the group that I was associating myself
01:20:42 myself with um as we can see from the uh list in the document that is on the screen
01:20:44 screen um the great majority of those identified in the list come from areas outside
01:20:55 outside Jon yes can I take it from there that that the detail that underlies the comments in this uh report uh must therefore come from sources other than your
01:21:13 your intelligence um yes most certainly um as I indicated earlier um so there was the opportunity to contribute to these reports um by other parts of the organization um other intelligence streams um I think the only thing I'd
01:21:24 streams um I think the only thing I'd add to that would be um the you know my my remit um and what sub subsequently became I guess uh my reach did take me uh you know well beyond London there was no London um if you like uh
01:21:43 no London um if you like uh artificial border uh that contained what was a sort of national ideology um but that was not my starting point thank you yes thank you um can we
01:21:55 point thank you yes thank you um can we take that down um so I will just say we will check in terms of the names under the Privacy redactions do do you have access to those in the hearing room yes uh not in the hearing room I have them
01:22:06 uh not in the hearing room I have them in on my closed computer yes was the for the purposes of tallying the numbers of those on the list and those in the report would it be of assistance if the team checked whether any under the
01:22:18 team checked whether any under the Privacy red actions also tally uh well I I can tell you that three only uh tally in the lists uh those are LTD the anonymous individual and Brendan MC that even looking underneath the Privacy red yes okay thank
01:22:33 yes okay thank you um hm1 the um I was going to move to ask you just briefly about um your evidence in terms of um how somebody gets an RF file or the threshold can we
01:22:44 gets an RF file or the threshold can we please have a look at the report at MPS 0742 294 to start off with at c209 sir and if we go past the cover sheet it Bears your ident identifier uh your
01:22:57 Bears your ident identifier uh your security service unique identifier on the first page hm1 and then please can we uh go down to the
01:23:04 the report
01:23:10 report um we've where the name uh appeared there is a privacy redaction it's partner 1A simply because I'm about to show you another report um which will be the the second half of this partnership this relationship so two reports on
01:23:23 this relationship so two reports on people who two individuals who appear to be in a relationship um the first here I sorry I should pause you I hope you may have partner 1 a and partner 1 B's names on your Cipher list if you want to know who they
01:23:34 if you want to know who they are um partner 1 a who is married to partner 1 B is a long-standing vegan and committed supporter of of Alf activity a
01:23:47 committed supporter of of Alf activity a vifer campaigner his verbal abuse during demonstrations can be heard some considerable distance away being a well-connected and respected extremist it is beli believ that he might take part in intermittent Al criminal
01:23:59 part in intermittent Al criminal activity all right and we see there uh under the references at the bottom that partner 1B n/t that means no Trace doesn't
01:24:13 doesn't it U yes it does can we zoom out of that please and if we look at the top of the report partner 1A who is the subject of this report has no RF reference at the top of the report do you see that
01:24:25 top of the report do you see that yes can we take that down please and look at the report on Partner 1B MPS 07458 23 that's your C1 two
01:24:41 tenser and hm1 we see um that your security service unique identifier appears there can we go to the body of the report please this on Partner
01:24:56 please this on Partner 1B uh no RF file reference at the top uh it sets out that partner 1B is married to partner 1 a in a a committed vegan and animal rights extremist to be found regularly participating in London anti-er group demonstrations each
01:25:09 anti-er group demonstrations each Saturday outside either Jindo Furs Noble Furs or selfes a confident and confrontational campaigner who relishes skirmishes both verbal and physical with perceived animal abusers and is often seen sporting a mock bloodstained
01:25:26 seen sporting a mock bloodstained laboratory coach it is probable that she takes part in in Al criminal activity from time to time and we see there that they are both listed both Partners there as being no Trace yes yes I see
01:25:44 that if you want to um if they are on the cipher list I'm told at the end if you want to see who these two individuals are before I ask you any further questions no I'm um please go ahead with the questions um if we just zoom out them from the body of that
01:25:57 from the body of that report neither of those has any mentions at all on the face of it so that would indicate would it not that this may be the first reporting on them or close to the first reporting on
01:26:13 them um it indicates that yes if we go up please to the cover sheet of this report this report was signed off by Robert Lambert within the SDS and do you see at point two on the
01:26:30 SDS and do you see at point two on the minut sheet DCI Edmonson to C please and consider opening is that RF on subject um yes that's yes that's what it says right so in this case we've got somebody who is previously no Trace but described
01:26:42 who is previously no Trace but described in your reporting as an an animal rights extremist who probably uh takes part in Alf criminal activity from time to time and that seems to have been sufficient for the
01:26:53 seems to have been sufficient for the suggestion to have been raised that a file should be open doesn't it um yes is the reality that it didn't take very much at all for somebody to uh have a file opened on
01:27:07 somebody to uh have a file opened on them much more Beyond reporting on their involvement in Alf criminal activity from time to time um well I think the minute sort of only flags for consideration um it doesn't actually
01:27:22 consideration um it doesn't actually approve it um the as I recall um there would then be um and I I can't remember what they are because I wasn't involved in this part of the process um criteria that had to
01:27:33 of the process um criteria that had to be satisfied um for the opening of an RF so this is DTI Evon um talking about considering it and that was a sort of standard um uh yeah let's keep this under review type
01:27:48 under review type comment but thinking back to the report we were just looking at at the end of your deployment which lists 20 or so individuals said to be the top priority in terms of Al
01:27:59 in terms of Al extremism is it not surprising that the vast majority of them have no file at all if they are properly to be regarded as amongst the top 20 um well it it's um being among the
01:28:17 20 um well it it's um being among the top 20 was not a threshold um for the creation of an RF um it starts well before then uh in terms of these specific individuals and because I think these questions are always for me anyway um individual specific I mean that was
01:28:33 um individual specific I mean that was an assessment um and an accurate picture of a couple of individuals that in no way even sought to conceal um their level of hostility um and others um I so so I'll be
01:28:47 and others um I so so I'll be deliberately careful here what I say um unless you guide me other in another Direction there were other streams of reporting um on these individuals
01:28:58 individuals um from um informants but also witness to their
01:29:09 informants but also witness to their activity can I ask you in a different way I think the beginning of that answer may have made
01:29:17 um so I'm just going to readback your answer at the beginning
01:29:42 yes you said um being in the top 20 was not the threshold for the creation of an RF it starts well before then and I think that that's the point isn't it hm1 that before somebody truly got into the top 20 most extreme Al
01:30:00 got into the top 20 most extreme Al activists you would expect them to have an RF file opened on wouldn't you um yes and um and others
01:30:10 did all right thank you I'm going to move um topic please and ask you some questions um about your activities with the West
01:30:23 about your activities with the West London hunt sabur and hunt saering all right during your deployment could we have on the screen um the targeting strategy document MPS 0726 963 it's B17 sir in the hard copy
01:30:35 bundle and we looked at this briefly before hm1 I want to ask you uh now about paragraph four in particular this is the document on the 14th of January 1992 signed off by detective inspector
01:30:46 1992 signed off by detective inspector hn 67 at the formal commencement of your deployment paragraph uh four reads it is proposed to Target dcm1 initially at the
01:31:02 proposed to Target dcm1 initially at the middle sex animal rights society a group reportedly Keen to engage in attacks on those regarded as animal abusers prior to attempting infiltration he will need to establish a strong cover identity and background and to thoroughly acquaint himself with the aims and philosophies of not only the animal Liberation
01:31:17 of not only the animal Liberation movement but also of the various aspects of
01:31:17 of vegetarianism this will be achieved by joining the many organizations in this field and on a more practical level by becoming involved in Hunt sabar
01:31:28 becoming involved in Hunt sabar activity um does it follow that you understood from the very outset of your
01:31:40 understood from the very outset of your deployment that hunt sabar activity was something in which you should involve yourself um it wasn't it wasn't essential um it was a suitable Landing Point um
01:31:52 Point um for uh familiarizing yourself with an activity which was prevalent um and widespread um and it was a very it was a very welcoming if you like um
01:32:04 it was a very welcoming if you like um uh movement through which to arrive and claim subsequently some knowledge um of of that level of uh of that level of campaigning when you say it wasn't
01:32:13 it wasn't essential do you mean it wasn't essential for special Branch to know what the hunt sabots were up to um no I certainly don't mean that and um it was
01:32:33 certainly don't mean that and um it was um um absolutely essential um not least because of the um levels of violence associated with certain groups and individuals no for me specifically um it it wasn't it wasn't vital um I could have I could have chosen another
01:32:45 could have I could have chosen another route it was just um a suitable thing to to
01:32:46 to land on and with to familiarize to familiarize oneself with some of the issues and as I say it was um um it was a sort of an open organization
01:33:03 um it was a sort of an open organization where uh that that welcomed newcomers so you were saying it was both as it were an easy way into the animal rights movement and also of interest to special branch in its own right yeah it was yeah it was absolutely of interest um and it
01:33:18 it was absolutely of interest um and it was also um I guess an education as well into um the issues in this particular stream of campaigning can you explain that
01:33:26 that please um yeah so what is um uh for someone completely new other than sort of from the other side of the fence if you like um to uh one of the one of the
01:33:39 you like um to uh one of the one of the three big areas um that were of interest of special branch and U and stakeholders it was um Al extremism we talked a bit about that it was public order um and it
01:34:00 about that it was public order um and it was uh the Hun sabat movement with large straddled uh both those uh both those sectors but also it was um a
01:34:04 was um a movement um into which uh
01:34:16 which uh people that were campaigning purely on say anti VI section uh tickets would would associate themselves um so it seemed to me this was a useful point to gain some insight into and at least at
01:34:35 gain some insight into and at least at least a feel for um a level activity was prevalent of interest and straddled if you like the the public order of the extreme end sort of the violent confrontation um among certain groups can I just understand when you um referred to Al extremist or extremism there were you meaning to suggest that
01:34:52 there were you meaning to suggest that in some way hunt sabot activity itself was classified as far as you were concerned as Alf extreme is M or something else um no I didn't I didn't it wasn't routinely classified as that because it wasn't um but it did um in
01:35:11 because it wasn't um but it did um in support of bringing an end to um animal cruelity um it did well and truly fit into um the disorder um targeted violence um in the name of um uh animal cruelty all right
01:35:22 name of um uh animal cruelty all right so moreal public order of focus than an extremism focus is that fair yes it was
01:35:34 extremism focus is that fair yes it was a relatively um unsupervised activity as for an undercover officer by its nature wasn't it you were perhaps out in the fields perhaps outside of London most of the time on your own is that a fair description of of the nature of the
01:35:48 description of of the nature of the activity yes and did that cause you any concern that you would be out there early on in your deployment very much away from London and in circumstances in which your arrest was at least
01:35:59 arrest was at least possible um I think not so much the arrest but the rest of it um and not so much the being outside of London the actual the nature of the activity itself um uh wasn't
01:36:11 um uh wasn't particularly um wasn't something I relished um yes I mean I had those concerns on a daily basis and once you watch you out there as a newcomer um
01:36:23 watch you out there as a newcomer um it's a pretty it's a pretty lonely place is that right that you didn't relish at hm1 sorry which aspect the you said you didn't relish the um activity in terms of hunt sa
01:36:34 of hunt sa sabotage no no I didn't the inquiry has heard evidence from an individual who we are calling Walter I'll let you consult the uh Cipher
01:36:52 List have you
01:36:59 Dano um yes sorry um yes thank you and Walter says um rather the opposite uh that that you did seem to be up for it if I can use that
01:37:10 up for it if I can use that colloquialism when it came to hunt sabotage is he wrong about that yeah look I certainly put a brave face on it I didn't do it for that long I was actually hopeless at it as well uh some people had a real Knack and the skill
01:37:27 people had a real Knack and the skill um and I just felt pretty inadequate um and it was a cold miserable lonely existence um so there was nothing I relished um about it at all and I was fundamentally not very good at it which was also the other totally miserable
01:37:39 was also the other totally miserable aspect to it how did you come to that conclusion by looking at how good others were at
01:37:57 were at um uh following the scent um of the fox um preventing and uh interfer with the hounds um in a way that seemed to be instinctive and informative and knowledgeable so it was the rather the technical aspect if I can put it that way that you thought you were not very good at there was a technical aspect
01:38:10 good at there was a technical aspect plus there was a sort of um it wasn't my natural setting um in terms of the uh I guess the type of camaraderie that people
01:38:23 that people enjoyed um and yeah and enjoyed with with and from it I just want to come back to something you said a moment ago about not being involved for very uh long in your witness statement you suggest the the phrase you used was that your
01:38:40 phrase you used was that your participation uh in the west London hunt sabot fizzled out and that it had been your entry point
01:38:43 point um do you mean to say that your participation in Hunt sabot Turing didn't last very long or your participation with the West London hunt sabur didn't last very long um
01:39:03 pleas you were I'll come back to the details but you were arrested in August of
01:39:05 of 1995 uh at the Sab of a gr shoot weren't you yes so you were still going along to hunt sabater type events throughout your deployment weren't you um very
01:39:16 deployment weren't you um very infrequently so that was um uh one I hadn't been to before it was a national event um um of significant importance
01:39:35 event um um of significant importance and uh absence that um I really wasn't um prior to that forign to the West London group um engaged in hsab [Music]
01:39:50 activity the um can we have up your witness statement please at paragraph 287b So MPS 0748 095 page
01:40:10 118 oh I'm 287 be7
01:40:15 be7 287b please I think it's page 118 but it might be
01:40:15 might be [Music]
01:40:19 119 yeah thank you
01:40:30 right by reference to um a report about the leader of the West London hunt sabur you and hunts saing you said this in your statement hm1 at the start of my deployment I did this every other Saturday by the end of
01:40:41 Saturday by the end of 1992 I was doing hunt sabotage INF frequently or not at all at the start of my deployment I would have reported on all hunts I attended But as time went on I might
01:40:55 attended But as time went on I might have provided more bridged reporting if it was a vanilla advertised sabotage event where nothing of note
01:41:03 occurred what was the justification for you continuing to attend hunt sabotage events that were as you described them vanilla and where nothing of note occurred um so there was a specific
01:41:16 occurred um so there was a specific interest and intelligence requirement um
01:41:27 interest and intelligence requirement um on the hunt saur movement uh with regard to uh from a public order perspective from a point of view of certain individuals that would be associated with the organizing of events either to Mark um uh an event that had happened in which there had been
01:41:40 which there had been violence uh in which groups would turn up in sympathy um and it was in response to uh I say
01:41:51 and it was in response to uh I say normally a requirement for me white National index um who had a public order standing
01:42:04 order standing uh request from police forces around the country to provide insight into numbers mood and nature of um any particular weekends or weekly um activity but there were a number of hunt sabotage events where there was either
01:42:19 sabotage events where there was either no disorder uh many where there was no violence that's that's right isn't it yeah absolutely in fact some of my I mean some of my contributions were to give an indication that that was likely to be the case and if you were able to give an indication in advance that a
01:42:31 give an indication in advance that a hunt sabot a hunt sabotage was unlikely to involve any disorder at all what was the justification for you nonetheless continuing to go along as an undercover police officer it it fed in directly to
01:42:48 police officer it it fed in directly to how the the local police force um would resource um the coverage of that event why does it require your attendance if you're able to report that in
01:43:00 you're able to report that in advance um well it it didn't require my attendance every time in terms of the reporting on why would I report on for example a group sorry sorry the question was why would you attend not why would you report but why would you attend a
01:43:11 you report but why would you attend a hunt sabotage if you had been able to report in advance to the local police this one's not likely to involve any Disorder so they could take steps accordingly in terms of where their
01:43:25 accordingly in terms of where their resources were sent that day yeah well I I I I frequent I I more frequently wasn't attending it was um it was a sort of fizzling out um during that during that first year but your witness statement says that if it was a vanilla advertised sabotage event where nothing
01:43:40 advertised sabotage event where nothing of note occurred you might have attended but not reported that that's what I'm asking about why would you have attended a vanilla event where there was nothing to
01:43:47 to report well just because I've already Associated myself with um a campaigning group
01:43:54 group um and uh being part of that group was um an important part of how I was coming to people's attention and and getting noticed right so furtherance of your
01:44:07 noticed right so furtherance of your cover yes yeah but I think at the same time you it did give credibility therefore to um the mood indicators when people said for example with the
01:44:20 people said for example with the presence of that particular group if we keep it West London specific uh what would be a level of if you like um violence or disorder anticipated and that was a group Associated not with
01:44:31 that was a group Associated not with violence or disorder as opposed to other groups um that were distinct distinctly have a different
01:44:39 ground thank you um I'm being asked if we could take the mid morning break at about this time so I think that's an appropriate moment please uh we must break now for quarter of an hour to enable the transcribers to have a well-deserved rest could I ask that the handwritten document that I referred to
01:44:56 handwritten document that I referred to is securely ident identified and yes we will do that and we will provide the names um with appropriate privacy redaction so that others can understand what was provided thank you until
01:45:21 12
02:01:20 e e
02:02:17 thank [Music]
02:02:22 [Music] you thank you um hm1 I'm going to asked that we put on screen some reporting that you um submitted or contributed to concerning hunt saat Terror activity so can we start please MPS 0730
02:02:33 0730 988 a report of the 16th of March of
02:02:53 1993 and we see your identifier there on the first page hm m 1 and if we could go down to the body of the
02:03:00 report um it is um itself dated at the bottom of 16th of March it's an event Pro former about an event to take place on the 20th of March of 1993 The New Forest hunt in Hampshire
02:03:13 1993 The New Forest hunt in Hampshire and it lists there the organization hunt sabur Association um you cover this I think in your witness statement but it it's right isn't it that it appears that the hunt sabur Association has been entered on occasion as the organization
02:03:28 entered on occasion as the organization in effect for a Shand as a Shand for the hunt sabater movement and it doesn't necessarily follow that the association itself had any direct involvement in the event um
02:03:41 event um correct sorry c114 I'm sorry 144 sorry 44
02:03:53 yeah uh the report report um indicates that 40 plus are likely to attend likelihood of disorder probable mood hostile and confrontational um and the body of the
02:04:06 confrontational um and the body of the report reads as follows following events on the 13th of March when a number of hunt sabur sustained injuries at the hursley and hamon hunts sabar intend to hit the New Forest hunt on the 20th of March in
02:04:18 March in retaliation many of the terrier men and Hunt supporters believed to be responsible for attacking the sabots are likely to be present at the New Forest meet whilst violence and disorder are
02:04:31 meet whilst violence and disorder are probable if the two sides actually meet the New Forest is a notoriously difficult hunt to find furthermore the violent brickton hunt sabater group is temporarily immobile and its members will probably not be able to get to the
02:04:45 will probably not be able to get to the New Forest in sufficient numbers to add to the
02:04:51 confrontation the um can I ask you to two particular things in the first paragraph there is a reference to the hab the sabots intending to hit the New Forest hunt in
02:05:02 Forest hunt in retaliation for sabar themselves having been injured at an earlier hunt um we've heard evidence from other witnesses that a that a hit um on a hunt indicates a large number of hunt sabar
02:05:19 indicates a large number of hunt sabar intending to involve themselves is that your understanding um well yes um it could it could it could be an indicative of of numbers and a and a sort of a call out um and
02:05:31 a and a sort of a call out um and therefore uh certainly when it's in response to this particular type of event um so the attack on on on a sabater
02:05:45 sabater previously uh yes it's a generic sort of catchment term that could be all all number of things but it's normally in response to an then a call for
02:06:01 response to an then a call for support would you agree that the primary purpose of the hunt sabots in inviting uh other sabur to attend in numbers was as it were to to show the hunt that they would not be dissuaded on
02:06:14 hunt that they would not be dissuaded on Mass from carrying on with hunt sabotage activity merely because they might sometimes uh be the victims of assaults or be injured during sabotage activities
02:06:26 or be injured during sabotage activities um that would have been an element of it certainly um there would have been an element among some as the need for
02:06:34 Retribution What proportion of individuals involved in Hunt sabot Turing would you say ever concerned themselves with the concept of Retribution in these sorts of
02:06:48 Retribution in these sorts of circumstances um I couldn't put a percentage on it it was more um it was more of a particular groups that were likely to turn up that would be an indication of therefore the percentage
02:07:01 indication of therefore the percentage of likelihood of disorder all right so sorry G sorry no I interrupted you if you've got something more to say please say it no no please carry on this taking this report as an example the second paragraph refers to the
02:07:16 the second paragraph refers to the violent brickton hunt sabotage group is that the sort of thing that you were just referring to when you said it would be the groups that would turn up
02:07:28 be the groups that would turn up um so yeah the um the brickton H sabater um group had a reputation for fearlessness and confrontation um and their presence at an event like this would certainly be an indicator that confrontation
02:07:41 indicator that confrontation was was the stage of own and that that reputation for confrontation was that born of them being willing to stand up as it were and face the Huntsman rather than turn and
02:07:57 face the Huntsman rather than turn and Retreat um very much I'm standing up to them in the face of uh threats or threats of violence from the people involved in the the hunting
02:08:15 involved in the the hunting yes is it would it be fair to say that the fact that they were willing to uh stand up in the face of threats gave them a
02:08:19 them a reputation um for being confrontational but in fact they were not individuals who positively promoted the use of violence or used it unprovoked um don't know um all I know
02:08:36 unprovoked um don't know um all I know is um that uh the presence of that group of individuals was normally associated with certainly with circumstances under circumstances such as these um a strong correlation between them
02:08:50 them attending um and physical confrontation being the outcome so a correlation but my suggestion is that not necessarily A causal link so not necessarily the case that it was the brickton hunt sabots group causing the
02:09:05 brickton hunt sabots group causing the violence even if there was a correlation between their attendance and violence breaking out well it's a close fun thing I had no close association with that
02:09:21 I had no close association with that group um I um I didn't associate myself with them I didn't attend hunts with them um they were they had a sort slightly legendary status for confrontation and it sort of element of fearlessness so um it's a close run thing as
02:09:28 thing as to um whether it was intentional provoked standing up or we are now going to seek retribution but in terms of the cult and the brand um and their sort of I guess
02:09:42 brand um and their sort of I guess behaviors on the battlefield as it were um it was pretty um it it was pretty obvious what the outcome was going to be each time they turned up right so where you describe them in this report or
02:09:54 you describe them in this report or where they are described in this report attributed to you as the violent Brixton hunt sabur group that is based on their cult status is it their reputation rather than anything you yourself had
02:10:06 rather than anything you yourself had observed oh no I had observed it I mean I'd been present when they had turned up um yeah they were they were well known um in the sabur
02:10:21 um in the sabur field what had you witnessed them doing thing that merited the descriptor violent well the as you alluded to earlier the um the sort of The Fearless confrontation
02:10:33 confrontation with supporters of the hunt um supporters of the hounds who themselves were um in many cases really quite quite a thuggish violent um uh
02:10:50 quite quite a thuggish violent um uh brand uh when it came to that type of skirmish
02:10:55 skirmish can we take down that report so that was a report in advance of the New Forest hunt a planned um hit on the New Forest hunt can we have up the report of the um event itself MPS 0730
02:11:07 0730 996 23rd of March of
02:11:15 1993 so it's your c147 I'm ahead of you on this occasion hm1 your unique identify fire appeared on the first page hm1 is the
02:11:27 appeared on the first page hm1 is the cipher over it and can we look at the body of the report
02:11:39 please in fact about 270 attended so your prediction was 40 plus but in fact a much higher number appears to have attended do you see yes um a and it's described in the first paragraph As the largest Congregation of sabur together
02:11:56 largest Congregation of sabur together this season in fact probably the largest ever for a specific hunt do you recall this
02:12:01 this event um not specifically no but this this all looks uh this all looks right and it what is described here is that the sabots to quote greeted the
02:12:12 that the sabots to quote greeted the hunt sorry greeted a meeting of the New Forest hunt with an impressive show of strength in retaliation for the violent disorder that occurred at a meeting of the hersley in hambledon foxhounds the previous week when sabot have been
02:12:27 previous week when sabot have been attacked by a group of waiting terer men and their
02:12:33 and their colleagues um do I take it from the way that is worded that the the retaliation that occurred was in fact the turning out in great
02:12:45 numbers um well this is this was just a statement of fact I guess um as to the number as it turned up if we um zoom out of that please so we can look at another part of the
02:12:59 we can look at another part of the report can we look at the next paragraph next two
02:13:04 paragraphs the report continues on arrival in the New Forest the sabots armed with radios set off towards the hunt with military precision and organization this tactic generated sufficient fear in the minds of the
02:13:18 sufficient fear in the minds of the hunters to cause them to bring the hunt to a premature end a decision No Doubt influenced in part by the absence of any terer men orbe it word had spread amongst local sabors that the latter
02:13:29 amongst local sabors that the latter were going to turn up quote to finish what they had started last
02:13:42 what they had started last week is the reality that the absence of terum men was likely to be a deciding factor in whether any disorder or violence
02:13:46 violence occurred um that would have been a contributing factor for sure
02:13:56 and on this occasion the attendance in unprecedented numbers um what is described as a tactic of the sabs uh setting off with military position and organization armed with radios appears to have been sufficient
02:14:13 radios appears to have been sufficient for them to achieve their aim which was bringing the hunt to an end would you agree uh
02:14:16 agree uh yes and in circumstances in which peacefully and by those tactics the sabur were able to bring the hunt to the end they didn't go looking for disorder did they
02:14:37 no you mentioned um so I'm just being asked to pause briefly I'll just do so no no I'm not okay um you mentioned before that um I'll just look for your uh words
02:15:08 I can't quite find them on the transcript hm1 but as I understood your evidence you were indicating that there was it wasn't unusual uh to uh for the hunt sabots to face uh threats or threats of violence
02:15:22 face uh threats or threats of violence from those associated with the Hunt is that is that fair that's fair yes and did you witness hunt sabur in fact being assaulted physically assaulted
02:15:33 assaulted physically assaulted themselves by people associated with hunts um yes uh did you um notice
02:15:48 hunts um yes uh did you um notice whether or not the police presence where there was a police presence generally seemed to take action against people associated with the hunt when those assaults took place um
02:15:56 in in subsequent investigations or events
02:15:57 events where um I guess something serious had happened U that's that was what played out but often these skirmishes would be in remote locations um out of view or
02:16:10 in remote locations um out of view or range of whatever the police coverage was on the day but where there was police coverage and the skirmishes were taking place uh in the in the presence
02:16:21 taking place uh in the in the presence of uniformed police who had attended did you experience situations in which the police took no action following assaults on hunt sabar by hunts people
02:16:36 um well not subsequently know um I think where it was normally um In the Heat of the Moment um I don't recall any um any arrests per se um in the moment um but I do remember
02:16:49 do remember subsequent um or stories of subsequent prosecution of Huntsman as they mostly were being arrested for assault were those the exception rather than the norm well I think the the events were
02:17:03 norm well I think the the events were the exception um in terms of where the police U were present
02:17:13 police U were present when it sort of if feel like those sorts of events unfolded in front of them but where those sorts of events did unfold in front of the police was it the exception rather than the norm that action would follow such as an arrest charge prosecution of somebody
02:17:24 charge prosecution of somebody associated with the hunt um I don't know no feel for that did you yourself experience either personally or by witnessing others being detained
02:17:37 witnessing others being detained Detention of hunt sabot by the police as it were temporarily to take them away from the hunt sabur where there was no intention formally to charge them so A detention simply to take them away from the
02:17:52 the situation um well yes I guess um and I was um I was close to that during the arrest on the gro where that did happen and did you consider that that was a
02:18:05 and did you consider that that was a lawful use of the powers of arrest of the police officers in attendance yes why um prevention of disorder so it was permissible for them to arrest for the prevention of disorder and detain the hunt sabar even if they
02:18:17 and detain the hunt sabar even if they intended always to release them later in the day without I think I I think at the time of the example I was using um it wasn't to detain with a view to taking them away from skirmishes it was being caught up in in the skirmishes um and
02:18:32 caught up in in the skirmishes um and breaches of minor public order offenses did you witness hunt sabur who were not involved in that sort of skirmish being detained by the police for the purpose
02:18:44 detained by the police for the purpose if not explicitly stated for the purpose of taking them away from the scene of the hunt sabotage um no I mean even if they had done that I would would have known that that was that was their intention were you did you see anything that appeared to you to be consistent
02:18:57 that appeared to you to be consistent with that no can we take that um report uh down please and put up on the screen MPS
02:19:13 07310 it's a report dated the 26th of October of 1993 it's your c187
02:19:25 1993 it's your c187 sir H1 if we pause on the first discover page please it's a report that in its original form bore your uh Security Service unique identifier which is why
02:19:38 Service unique identifier which is why the inquiry has put hn1 um there on the cover sheet in your witness statement you said you thought that this was a composite
02:19:40 composite report um if we have a look at the content please it states in the first paragraph that it is information received from a secret and reliable
02:19:53 received from a secret and reliable source does either the presence of your unique identifier or that phrase at the beginning of the report cause you to reflect on whether it's a composite
02:20:05 reflect on whether it's a composite report um I'm just reminding myself so I do yes thank you
02:20:28 um no I think I think there would have been cont contributions from others only um in terms of that sort of General assessment of The Wider picture and we see um in the left hand side this is a report bearing an SDS reference so it's a report that emanated from the SDS yes yes and in 1993 the
02:20:46 from the SDS yes yes and in 1993 the other uh Source would be Andrew Kohl's in the SDS would it not um yes um from from an SDS
02:20:59 not um yes um from from an SDS perspective um I thinking at that time 93 um yes there would have been other streams of reporting though um understood yes okay could I ask you to look please at paragraph
02:21:15 two it reads as follows morale intelligence and Communications within the southeast sabur groups is at an all-time high and the coming season can be expected to witness every bit as much enthusiasm by sabots for confronting and preventing Fox
02:21:26 preventing Fox hunts many hunt sabur groups are becoming experts in legal matters and are now prepared and competent to take on both verbal and physical battles with
02:21:44 on both verbal and physical battles with police and Huntsmen the West London hunt sabar group for example has produced an accurate Guide to the Practical legal aspects of hunt sabotage including prisoners rights once arrested sabar have been given a 24-hour helpline number for contact with the sympathetic solist firm McKenzie
02:21:56 solist firm McKenzie Knight um the reference to the West London hunt sabotage group that's likely to be intelligence from you isn't it yes and do you recognize at the first half
02:22:08 and do you recognize at the first half or first two-thirds of that paragraph as likely to be from your intelligence or not um I think the um uh summarizing the sort of The Wider Southeast picture uh would have had contributions from others
02:22:26 the suggestion there is that hunt sabot groups many hunt sabot groups are becoming expert in legal matters and are now prepared and competent to take on physical battles with police and
02:22:38 physical battles with police and Huntsman it says verbal and physical but I want to focus on the physical and then reference is made to there being a guide to prisoner rights after arrest and a helpl line for a
02:22:55 after arrest and a helpl line for a solicitor in what way do you understand that there was any preparation for physical battles with police and Huntsman going on uh well the previous year had seen
02:23:08 on uh well the previous year had seen plenty of it uh and there was certainly no uh indication of any abatement and the
02:23:18 and the appetite um seemed to me and others um on the increase and not on the way uh for bringing this activity uh to a halt but the hunt sabar weren't preparing for example guides to prisoners rights about arrest and a help line for arrested sabots in order to
02:23:39 line for arrested sabots in order to seek out physical confrontation with the police and hunts were they um no not in order to do that um but this was the level of support now that people um could expect to get in the event of arrest yeah in the event that this was probably um a more likely outcome than
02:23:51 probably um a more likely outcome than had been previous previously okay but to the extent it could be inferred from this report that it's because they are seeking
02:23:59 seeking out uh battles with police and Huntsman that that wouldn't be correct would it um well in the in the influence bid it was just a statement of fact of what have been produced um and the direction of travel um and the level of
02:24:16 of travel um and the level of Confrontation um on the increase can we look at paragraph five please of this report over the page
02:24:25 paragraphs 3 and four hm1 just to fill you in list the the primary hunt sabot groups and the Hunts the primary hunts of interest to the hunt sabur um paragraph five says this although isolated incidents and
02:24:37 although isolated incidents and outbreaks of violence are always possible the deciding factor in Hunt sabotage confrontation is the presence
02:24:51 sabotage confrontation is the presence or otherwise of organized hunt stewards and their supporters without exception all the serious in idents last season resulted from confrontations between sabot and brackets provocative hired stewards Andor security agents some hunts have recognized this and have
02:25:04 hunts have recognized this and have withdrawn stewards in an attempt to reduce the likelihood of violence since this violence is deterring hunt members and is losing uh Hunt's
02:25:18 and is losing uh Hunt's money uh do you think that that is based on your intelligence um no The Wider thing about the link uh to the withdrawal um sorry the the
02:25:29 to the withdrawal um sorry the the losing of money um and the the old Sor in burto I that would have come from others uh but uh certainly the assertion that the link
02:25:40 that the link between um those individuals presence and a likelihood of Confrontation is absolutely or was absolutely accurate right so it was the presence the
02:25:51 right so it was the presence the deciding factor was the presence of the the organized hunt stewards and their supporters um the sort of the stewards security agents the ter and
02:26:04 security agents the ter and Community um was a very strong indicator um of whether there would be confrontation or
02:26:14 not can we take that report down please um can I ask you some questions about your reporting on um act action taken in regard to the waterl cup here cing event in
02:26:25 cing event in 1995 can we have on the screen please MPS
02:26:26 MPS 0739
02:26:37 773 at your c310 sir thank you this is a report uh dated the 17th of February
02:26:45 1995 can we look at the body of the report
02:26:54 report please um it's about an event EV due to take place on the 21st to the 23rd of February Mery side um about the waterl cup do you consider this is um likely reporting from you hm1 yes um this pre-event uh report
02:27:09 yes um this pre-event uh report indicates there at the top likelihood of disorder
02:27:16 probable and um if we can have a look please at the whole of the body of the report the Tech starting the waterl cup down to the end thank
02:27:28 you so you are reporting a planned picket of the waterl cup hair cing um event and you report that activists can be expected to do their level best to ensure maximum disruption not
02:27:39 ensure maximum disruption not withstanding the violent nature of the opposition again is that a a nod to the
02:27:56 opposition again is that a a nod to the fact that the um the violence um was uh largely coming from those carrying out the hunting or in this case hair cing activity rather than from the activists
02:27:58 activists yes um I'll skip the second paragraph which is to do with the um arrangements for the event the third paragraph um at the second half says
02:28:09 paragraph um at the second half says this in particular it is likely that the scarsbrook hotel will become the subject of direct action by the AL resulting in possible criminal damage and almost
02:28:24 possible criminal damage and almost certainly bomb h calls made to the hotel during waterl cup social functions nor can home visits uh be ruled out what caused you to associate on this occasion the uh activities of those
02:28:38 occasion the uh activities of those involved in sabotaging a hair coursing event with the
02:28:48 AL um I think so on previous form events such as this um have been targeted in this way
02:28:51 this way and could you just explain what is it that caused you to apply the uh label Al on this
02:29:01 on this occasion um well those deeply committed individuals that um were committed to bringing this particular event um to an end and the involvement of individuals who were
02:29:12 involvement of individuals who were openly supportive of Alf ideology so it's the individuals associated with the planned of yes including including LTD
02:29:34 yes if we um take that down so and look at the report after the event please MPS 0741
02:29:37 0741 05 it's uh the 28th of February of
02:29:44 19951 c316 uh
02:29:56 313 um and hm1 if we look again at the body of the report please uh report on that event disorder occurred no do you see that at the top
02:30:08 occurred no do you see that at the top yes and if we look again at the body of the
02:30:16 report there was an uneventful march on the opening day hoax calls were made so stating that incendiary devices had been placed in and around the
02:30:28 placed in and around the area but it says these were dismissively announced to hump followers over the public address system bad weather curtailed the hair cing as it did in 1994 the demonstrators set up a small but Resolute Banner protest at the
02:30:43 but Resolute Banner protest at the hotel and despite a good deal of verbal abuse there was no violence so in fact um The hoax calls
02:30:56 violence so in fact um The hoax calls were made um but the ALF direct action the criminal possible criminal damage and possible possibility for home visits appears not to have materialized is that right correct were you present at this event yes and what part did you
02:31:12 event yes and what part did you play um I was part of the picket outside the
02:31:13 the hotel your predictions for what might happen which did not in fact occur what were those based
02:31:26 were those based on um previous uh previous activity at events such as these um and all of those courses of action being absolute legitimate way of sort of the broader
02:31:42 legitimate way of sort of the broader targeting of a specific event right so a prediction of future Behavior based on past behavior of the individuals involved
02:31:51 yes thank you can we um take that down can can I ask you about another uh pair of reports please starting with MPS 0743 1 44 on the 28th of February of 1995
02:32:03 1995 c316
02:32:11 so and can we have a look please at the body of that report um
02:32:24 it's referring isn't it to a what's described as a recent attack on Al spokesman John Curtain and a visit to the home of someone whose name we've
02:32:37 the home of someone whose name we've rapted for privacy by two men wearing balac clavers being the work of followers of the chesher fox hounds there have been numerous
02:32:48 hounds there have been numerous unreported incidents involving hunt saers and chesher fox followers in recent months do you recall this reporting this information
02:32:55 um I think I yeah I think I do I certainly I'm certainly aware of the event and it appears in the the instance of the individual whose names were adapted for privacy he was out at the
02:33:08 adapted for privacy he was out at the time and his neighbors called the police because the asants tried to kick in his door Mr curtain was at home and was uh two men battered down his door and tried to drag him out of his house before escaping is this an example of um
02:33:27 escaping is this an example of um violence or attempted Violence by people associated with the hunt as against the Hunts people associated with the hunt sabar um it's only an example of that yes and was this sort of incident um in your experience I should say how
02:33:44 your experience I should say how frequent was this sort of event in your experience um an event such as that um the actual turning up at somebody's house um in that manner very rare to my knowledge
02:33:55 um can we take that down please and look now at MPS 0245 311 about 4 months later on the 18th of July it's your c360
02:34:11 sir um and this reports if we can look at the body of the
02:34:18 report that's a re there' had been a recent space of letter Bomb sent to members of the cheser fox hounds and it is suggested that they were in direct retaliation for the attack on John Curtain earlier in the year by men
02:34:30 Curtain earlier in the year by men wearing Bal clavas so the report we've just been looking at describes that attack is this your intelligence don't know don't know so you don't remember
02:34:43 know don't know so you don't remember whether or not it's you is that is that I don't recall whether it's mine um sorry do you recall letter bombs being sent to
02:34:50 sent to uh members if not of the chesher fox hounds than members of hunting groups or hunts yeah I remember that I remember that story circulating certainly and
02:35:02 that story circulating certainly and when you say you remember it circulating circulating amongst who um well among among the associates that I was um that I would speak to so you heard tell
02:35:19 that I would speak to so you heard tell of it um I I can't remember apologies uh it just became obviously it was quite a stories such as that or alleged stories such as that you know did did make the
02:35:33 make the circuit so is it possible that what you are reporting is if I use the word gossip that was circulating amongst animal rights activists um no I think if that is mine um it would have come from someone in Authority um otherwise I'd
02:35:48 someone in Authority um otherwise I'd have qualified it as such what do you mean someone in authority as someone who could have known um and and would have known and how would you be able to assess whether or not they would have
02:36:03 assess whether or not they would have known what was due um that's my judgment called on uh their position um access influence um the degree to which they would held in trusted circles so where it goes on to say
02:36:17 circles so where it goes on to say although the identity of the bomber or bombers remains unknown it is believe that the tacit approval of John Curtain was sought before the letter bombs were sent one reason for this was to establish whether Cur him would be
02:36:30 establish whether Cur him would be unduly concerned for his personal safety in the aftermath and the likely escalation in conflict between the hunt and animal rights activists and in around Manchester again are you suggesting that that's something that
02:36:41 suggesting that that's something that you're relaying it having been told to you by another um I the problem with this one is I don't recall writing that that assessment
02:36:53 could we take that down on that basis please and I'll move um just to some other HT related events briefly um MPS 07397 one0 this is a report on the 8th
02:37:07 07397 one0 this is a report on the 8th of March 1994 concerning the horse and Hounds ball in Park Lane it's c221
02:37:17 so um it Bears your identifier hn1 on the cover sheet and if we go please to the uh body of the
02:37:30 report can we zoom in on the thank you all right this report reads as follows an overt police presence coupled with a disappointing number of protesters made
02:37:41 disappointing number of protesters made for a more or less incident-free evening at this annual demonstration indeed of those who did make their way to the hotel many were deterred from remaining in the immediate vicinity by the prospect of being searched and having
02:37:52 prospect of being searched and having their details recorded by the police in any event those who persisted were directed to an area well away from the guest's arrival Point isolated incidents involving the throwing of eggs and
02:38:04 involving the throwing of eggs and rotten vegetables took place away from the immediate vicinity of the hotel entrance and with the exception of privacy who was detained after refusing to be searched in the street a majority
02:38:16 to be searched in the street a majority of The demonstrators Departed the scene long before the emergence of guests at the conclusion of the evening um you were present at this event weren't you yes and did the police stop and search
02:38:32 and search you um don't recall um I don't recall that they did um the inquiry has received a witness statement very recently from um Helen steel which in which she says that she recalls you being present and having some contact
02:38:48 being present and having some contact with the police does that ring any bells um it might well I mean it doesn't mean I yes I was certainly present um and if
02:38:59 I yes I was certainly present um and if I was searched um spoken to in in a way that everyone else was that would have been absolutely normal I just don't recall the specific searching and details being taken so it just wouldn't be particularly memorable if it did happen as far as your no not in the
02:39:10 happen as far as your no not in the slightest time the report records that the searches or the prospect of being searched um appeared to deter many of the potential protesters did appear to you that that
02:39:26 protesters did appear to you that that was as it were part of the police tactic to search people in order to prevent them effectively or deter them from protesting um well it certainly occurred to me that the the police was determined
02:39:39 to me that the the police was determined to prevent um disorder and confrontation and this was their way of dealing with it dealing with it by preemptive searching of those on their way well yeah sort of the preemptive sort of even who are you um what are you here for um
02:39:54 minute can we take that report down please and put up one regarding the Horse and Hound ball in Birmingham in 1996 MPS
02:40:01 1996 MPS 0246
02:40:03 0246 587 the second of September 1996 C470
02:40:16 sir right and we see this is a um report um after the event of a demonstration against the horse and Hounds ball taking place in Birmingham could we look please at the body of the
02:40:32 report and we see up to 80 animal rights activists from London centry Liverpool Manchester and wolver Hampton staged an angry and confrontational picket at the annual horsen Hound ball at the
02:40:47 annual horsen Hound ball at the Metropole Hotel NEC Birmingham um do you consider that this is um your report I'm just um just trying to recall um if it assists hm1 in your witness statement at paragraph 301 you said that you have a vague memory and that you thought you
02:40:59 vague memory and that you thought you you had been at this event I I think I'd been at the event yes um so yes and um it refers there to animal rights activists from London centry
02:41:11 rights activists from London centry Liverpool Manchester and wolver Hampton just going back to the questions the chairman asked you earlier were you in a position by September 1996 to identify
02:41:23 position by September 1996 to identify activists who had uh or whose base was in centry Liverpool Manchester and wolver
02:41:24 wolver Hampton um yes um the bull here um attended by members of the hunting fraternity and the report carries on a sparse police
02:41:38 the report carries on a sparse police presence allowed delighted activists to cause havoc in the large car park by 9:00 p.m. the area was lited with broken glass damaged vehicles and frightened guests a coach carrying ballg goers was
02:41:52 guests a coach carrying ballg goers was was besieged by balaclava protesters who managed to force their way into the vehicle before police arrived to rescue the visibly shaken occupants during the evening LTD was arrested for threatening
02:42:03 evening LTD was arrested for threatening behavior and amongst those identified as having Taken part in the attacks on vehicles were and then there is a list or five names that we've redacted um for reasons of privacy what part did you
02:42:16 reasons of privacy what part did you play in the events at this uh horse and Hounds
02:42:18 Hounds ball um
02:42:20 ball um so I know looking at this I I should have better recall for an event such as this
02:42:28 this um would you like me to put your witness statement on the screen where you covered this well maybe yeah maybe I'm just
02:42:32 just um it really doesn't um doesn't stand
02:42:44 um it really doesn't um doesn't stand out as something I've got sort of minute by- minute detail of right so um as to you know as to what was my role um regardless um it would have been supportive um titing probably um bit of
02:43:00 supportive um titing probably um bit of shouting um uh bit of abuse um I can see this was this was an event particularly where
02:43:02 where um tempers were uh temp were high so whether I record it or not um that's certainly sort of the type of um the type of thing I would have been
02:43:17 um the type of thing I would have been doing how confident can you be that that was the extent of your involvement if you don't really have a recollection of the event itself hm1 U well I think anything beyond that probably would have I would hope have sparked something a
02:43:32 I would hope have sparked something a little bit more uh I know um poignant as to what my involvement was uh that it doesn't suggest that that that was the case right so had you forced your way onto a coach containing people you're suggesting that might have been memorable to you um I think that most
02:43:46 memorable to you um I think that most certainly would have been minimal and what about smashing as is implied smashing uh smashing glass of some description in the car park yeah I can say for certain um I didn't do that and
02:43:57 say for certain um I didn't do that and how can you be so certain well because I know I haven't done that at at any point mhm smashing of of Windows of vehicles in particular or smashing of windows at
02:44:12 in particular or smashing of windows at all well as far as I recall smashing of windows at all
02:44:24 can we have up your witness statement please page 126 of MPS 0748
02:44:36 095 my page references maybe one out yeah so perhaps 127 please thank you
02:44:55 yeah so this is the paragraph where you address the report we've just had on the screen hm1 you say I was there and I have a vague memory of being there I played a reasonably minor role shouting at people attending the
02:45:06 at people attending the ball um I did not force my way onto the coach or damage any vehicle and you say there were police everywhere and it would have been highly imprudent to do that in front of them the report records a sparse police
02:45:20 the report records a sparse police presence how confident are you that there were police everywhere on this
02:45:32 there were police everywhere on this occasion well whether that was to begin with um a sparse presence um and then they descended in numbers I'd say I really don't have record uh sufficient recall to be able to answer that accurately and then you go on to say my cover Persona did not have the reputation of being a spontaneous
02:45:43 reputation of being a spontaneous hotthead impulsive behavior was not a sensible approach and would have been frowned upon by other activists who thought that calculated actions were more more likely to yield
02:45:56 more more likely to yield results um it's apparent isn't it from what occurred that a number of the activists present at this event must themselves have engaged in impulsive behavior uh criminal damage it appears
02:46:10 behavior uh criminal damage it appears to vehicles and the like yes so from the point of view of those activists might you have stood out as somebody who wasn't uh getting involved with this sort of
02:46:19 sort of activity um not necessarily I I don't think I did there were quite a few people there um it was in character um it was not something I was known for so would have been in total keeping with who I reported to be if we look
02:46:37 with who I reported to be if we look please at paragraph 301d just over the page um you state that you have you don't remember LTD being
02:46:43 arrested um but you say this was an event with plenty of provocation on both sides the police were literally standing in between two factions the police would protect the entrance to the hotel and
02:46:54 protect the entrance to the hotel and attendees would run the gauntlet up a corridor of protesters protected by the police brackets there were similar protests in London too can I ask is is that a specific recollection of what
02:47:06 that a specific recollection of what happened at the horse and Hounds ball where your report records a sparse police presence or is it possible that that's a reference to other horse and Hounds balls and what what often
02:47:17 Hounds balls and what what often happened um and you mean the the bid in Brackets talking about protests I mean the the whole of the not the first two sentences about LTD but the suggestion that there was provocation on both sides with the police standing between two
02:47:29 with the police standing between two factions your report doesn't record that um but your witness statement many years later does I'm just querying how accurate you think your witness statement the recollection in your
02:47:42 statement the recollection in your witness statement is well I think this is
02:47:44 is um just in terms of trying to convey um you regardless of actually see um the uh the important thing here is the the
02:47:55 the important thing here is the the level of hostility um at those events and this one was one of two Waring factions separated by the police where both sides were sort of if you like egging on an antagonizing um each
02:48:08 like egging on an antagonizing um each other to the same degree um so there was that um at all of these events um and this one no different from the uh the hball in London is which on that last occasion police prevented the we
02:48:22 occasion police prevented the we saw uh was the antonation antagonization through gestures and obscenities um the closer people got together or came together in in sort of proximity your report at the time though is silent isn't it as to any provocation
02:48:42 is silent isn't it as to any provocation on the part of those associated with the hunt and focuses only on the activities of the hunt sabots can you explain why that might be uh no I can't was there any reason why you it would have been of public order interest to the police to know that the Hunt's people were equally
02:48:56 know that the Hunt's people were equally as provocative as you describe it as the hunt sabar themselves um well I think a bit of that was conveyed um in terms of the the
02:49:07 was conveyed um in terms of the the police standing between two lines of um sort of
02:49:10 sort of antagonistic sides yes but that's your witness statement I'm asking why that doesn't appear in the report at the time if as you say you're confident or
02:49:22 if as you say you're confident or sufficiently confident that your witness statement your recollection is of the event that that report describes yeah I don't I don't I can comment on any more um on this I apologies right was there any uh is
02:49:38 apologies right was there any uh is there any sense that the your focus was very much on reporting um any activity of the hunt sabots and didn't Focus equally on the Hunts people themselves where they were responsible for disorder violence Pro
02:49:53 violence Pro um no and I think um I think I did both where it was relevant um some of those earlier reports we were talking about um and the linking the presence of specific
02:50:07 and the linking the presence of specific type of hunt supporter to the likelihood of Confrontation uh but my if you like the where my input was required was with regards to those that I knew something about um in terms of mood intent previous behavior and what was
02:50:19 intent previous behavior and what was being discussed either directly um or among wider circles with regards to a specific event sometimes that assessment as we've seen um would have been um
02:50:35 as we've seen um would have been um incorrect um but it didn't mean that the assessment was still accurate in terms of what could happen um so I think it was for me to comment on others I didn't know about so how the protesters themselves would be are likely to be and
02:50:47 themselves would be are likely to be and that was often a spontaneous response to how the people I knew much more about what likely to be um I don't think would have been much interest in in any speculation on my part on that the people that I had actually no
02:50:58 that the people that I had actually no knowledge of all right all right could we take the witness statement down I'm going to move to a different topic I'll start it
02:51:22 briefly uh before uh lunchtime um on the London boots Action Group um which you reported on um for it the duration of its existence in fact now you gave a little bit of evidence about this yesterday that you uh agree that it's quite possible that you were at the inaugural
02:51:30 inaugural meeting um in uh November 1991 uh can we have up back up on the screen please your witness statement but now paragraph 115 which I think will be page 49
02:51:53 uh yes could we zoom in
02:52:00 please you say there became an organization in your first year of deployment you saw it advertised in timeout magazine and it was brought to your attention by special Branch colleagues you say it was deliberately public yet it was clear from the
02:52:12 public yet it was clear from the intelligence reporting which already existed around the group that it would attract people with credibility within the harder edge of the animal rights
02:52:24 the harder edge of the animal rights movement what I want to ask you is this if in fact your the start of your deployment coincided with the start of London boots Action Group as a group how could it have been clear from the intelligence reporting which already
02:52:37 intelligence reporting which already existed around the group that it would attract people with credibility within the harder edge of the animal rights movement there can't have been any Intelligence on it if it didn't exist could there um well there was um uh
02:52:49 could there um well there was um uh there was Intelligence on the people that were um responsible for setting it up um through existing coverage um across CDs one of those people you
02:53:07 across CDs one of those people you mention in that paragraph Was Paul grait is that right yes and uh he was you describe him well connected had credibility within the Hardline movement and the group had the support of other Hardline figures
02:53:20 Hardline figures too can I ask you when you refer there to hard line what does that really mean um those that were committed to ALF
02:53:44 ideology so we should understand you to be saying there that you considered Paul grait had credibility with those committed to the AL ideology and that London boots action group had the support of others committed to the AL ideology um so I
02:53:59 committed to the AL ideology um so I didn't know anything about um Paul per se didn't know anything about London boots Action Group um there was The Wider
02:54:00 Wider assessment um from existing coverage of these individuals U led to that assessment but you came to know Paul
02:54:14 assessment but you came to know Paul graic well didn't you yes and you spent quite a lot of time engaged with the activities of London boots action group yes so your assessment there in your witness statement that's born of your experience is it during your deployment
02:54:31 yes if we have a look at your contemporaneous reporting briefly a report concerning Mr grait can we look please at
02:54:37 please at MPS
02:54:43 MPS 07394 one8 dated the 12th of February of 1993 c127 sir
02:54:56 and it's about a monthly meeting of the group in February of
02:55:14 1993 and could we look please in particular at the paragraph towards the bottom of page uh one one this is you uh mentioning uh things that appear in the newsletter that was uh added uh paragraph
02:55:41 two uh you refer to a cynical and scathing article on the use by boots and other companies of the term crueltyfree on their products um and the contempt with which grait uh holds the mainstream Animal Welfare group the British Union for the abolition of Viva section leaves
02:55:52 for the abolition of Viva section leaves no doubt at all as to the commitment and policy of London boots Action Group as a Hardline anti-v section animal Liberation
02:56:07 outfit so the the hard line the term comes back there it appears to suggest there that it's the opposition or the contempt for the
02:56:16 the buav which has led to the conclusion that uh London boots Action Group is a Hardline anti viction animal Liberation
02:56:35 Hardline anti viction animal Liberation outfit is that a fair understanding yeah it's an as it's an aspect of um if you like that um lack of faith um in the mainstream if you like liberal um campaigning groups uh that are some distance
02:56:42 distance from the
02:56:53 from the Purity um of of the cause and the way I paraphrase it is um the anti vivers section cause and in this case specifically um the campaigning against the use of animals um by boots
02:57:07 the use of animals um by boots was a pure and distinct Focus which many people could get their heads around uh both intellectually and emotionally but
02:57:18 both intellectually and emotionally but with that came who was actually going to do anything about this um and the main campaigning groups which you know for some had already sort of Fallen at the first hurdle by not committing to to being vegan for
02:57:34 being vegan for example um there was a branding um and a commitment by London boots Action Group to um a very focused approach on bringing to an end the use of animal experimentation by Britain's biggest pharmaceutical company in the context of um your
02:57:47 company in the context of um your witness statement you said that hard line indicated those committed to the AL ideology when you describe here London
02:57:59 ideology when you describe here London boots Action Group as a Hardline animal Viva section animal Liberation outfit are you meaning to indicate that they are uh committed to Al ideology as a
02:58:10 are uh committed to Al ideology as a group there was a there was a crossover there was an association was an attractiveness um for those that did espouse and share um the the AL commitment
02:58:24 commitment to um the very basis of what London boots action group was all
02:58:33 about are you suggesting that London boots action group was a group that was attractive to those who were in favor of Al style action there wasn't there was an ideological correlation um so for
02:58:49 an ideological correlation um so for some groups um there were that existence that that correlation just simply wouldn't have been there can I ask that we take that down and look at a later report which also comments on Mr grait MPS
02:59:07 0245 378 it's the 8th of August of 1995 so it's your c365
02:59:28 sorry I'm missing a paragraph reference in my note so I'm just going to take a moment to look
02:59:34 myself can we go down please pass to the next
02:59:39 next page yeah can we focus in there on the right hand side the section of the report on Paul grait for context hm1 because I haven't I haven't let you look at the rest of the report this is a lengthy report on on London Animal
02:59:51 lengthy report on on London Animal Action a later Group after London boots action and the individuals associated with it and in that report you included this section on Paul
03:00:05 this section on Paul grait and you describe him at the end of that section as remaining a well-respected campaigner within the movement you don't describe him there as any sort of Al activist or
03:00:16 activist or extremist it it's right isn't that that as you knew Mr grait he wasn't involved in himself in Al direct action or extremism um he certainly wasn't to my
03:00:32 extremism um he certainly wasn't to my knowledge uh what we' described earlier as a sort of the more spontaneous um overt um proponents of um of criminal damage uh but I say that's a different
03:00:48 damage uh but I say that's a different category than the more sort of cerebral intellectual um administrative support uh for the ideology all right so the descriptor Hardline is indicating his support for the AL ideology but he was not somebody taking action directly
03:00:59 not somebody taking action directly himself is that have I understood that correctly well I the direct action that he was not taking part into my knowledge which I'm describing here um is uh the
03:01:16 which I'm describing here um is uh the more sort of spontaneous criminal damage um sort of graffiti smashing of Windows um um attacking Vehicles during demonstrations there are many forms of direct action which don't comprise that that's that's the category of activity
03:01:29 that's that's the category of activity and describing po not being associated with know and would you describe that broadly as Alf style direct action is that what you mean when that phrase comes up sorry which phrase Alf style direct action so smashing Windows the
03:01:41 direct action so smashing Windows the things that you've just described well that's a that's a low-level example um Alf direct action comprises that whole Myriad whole Spectrum um of of criminal
03:01:58 Myriad whole Spectrum um of of criminal activity Paul grait has described in his evidence that the two of you were good friends you went to the cinema he recalls going to a football match with you in
03:02:04 you in 1995 attending your birthday parties which you celebrated each year on your cover date of birth um do you agree that that was the nature of your relationship
03:02:20 that was the nature of your relationship your friendship with Paul grait yes I do uh he said that he really liked you as Matt
03:02:31 Matt rer did you really like Mr grait yes was Matt rer presenting himself as a hardliner too so similar to Mr grait I think that there was um there was an overlap in sort of the unspoken support uh for that um uh for the
03:02:53 cause all right thank you um I noticed the time sir may I just say before we break for lunch this affects Mr wood in particular that given the progress that I've made so far I will
03:03:06 progress that I've made so far I will not get to the questioning about uh Mr Shepherd's evidence um today yes may I make a brief of course uh Mr greenall be permitted to sit in my place tomorrow for very personal reason which I think you so
03:03:20 personal reason which I think you so aware of I am fully aware of them there is an important event that you must attend tomorrow uh even ahead of your attendance at this inquiry that's correct and uh if I can simply say this
03:03:33 correct and uh if I can simply say this there there are discussions in play and I think in due course although I don't think it formally happened yet Mr Green I imagine will be instructed in the yes and you and he are will then if that
03:03:49 and you and he are will then if that comes to play both be instructed in the appeal that's that's and and certainly Junior Council who was instructed before is no longer going to be instructed
03:04:00 is no longer going to be instructed because I think he has taken silk he's taken silk although he's remained involved in the backgr have to say that yes but I think's
03:04:09 think's yes Mr Sanders um I cannot see any reason objection to Mr Greenhall sitting in for Mr wood tomorrow
03:04:20 in for Mr wood tomorrow I note your nodding could I have a yes please for the transcript AG sir thank you uh we'll um resume at
03:04:46 52 for