Morning session featuring testimony from 'Jessica', granted anonymity. Jessica became animal rights activist aged 12-14, volunteering at animal rescue, attending hunt sabs as teenager. Testimony reveals London Boots Action Group was peaceful protest group (picketing, leafletting) NOT front for ALF. Jessica describes knowing HN1 'Matt Rayner' through group - 'common knowledge amongst people don't trust him, something about him people were suspicious of'.
00:28:57 e e
00:29:30 good morning everybody today's proceedings are being live streamed subject to a 10-minute delay those with electronic devices may use them to report uh what they are hearing in the
00:29:43 report uh what they are hearing in the hearing room but only after 10 minutes of elapse since the event that their reporting devices may not be used for recording or photography m g I'm so sorry the W May the witness be swed
00:29:57 the witness be swed please please and repeat after me I do solemnly sincerely and truly I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole
00:30:08 the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but and nothing but the truth thank you you yes thank you um I'm not going to ask the witness her
00:30:19 I'm not going to ask the witness her name I'm just going to refer to you as Jessica yeah um and Jessica that's because you have been granted anonymity and that's your Cipher that's how you're known in this inquiry and yesir that's correct you gave a witness statement um
00:30:39 correct you gave a witness statement um to the inquiry dated the 27th of June of this year can we just have the first page on screen please ucpi 037
00:30:52 092 and Jessica do you recognize that as your witness statement that you made to this inquiry yes it consists of 98 pages and it's signed at the End by you um do you confirm that its contents are true
00:31:05 you confirm that its contents are true to the best of your knowledge and belief yes that will stand as your written evidence to the inquiry what I'm going to do today is ask you questions about some parts of it um and going to perhaps a little bit more detail about certain
00:31:18 a little bit more detail about certain areas all right okay C can we start with um your background um and your um entry as it were into um animal rights you say in your witness statement that you became interested in animal rights in
00:31:29 became interested in animal rights in your early teens is that right yes yes I think you were vegetarian from a the age of 12 yes and you became a vegan age 19
00:31:47 of 12 yes and you became a vegan age 19 yes um did you have lots of um pets when you were growing up yes I did um I had cats
00:31:49 cats Budgy um dog I got my first um we got our first dog when I was um 11 or 12 and then after that I volunteered of an
00:32:03 then after that I volunteered of an animal rescue and just and then we got a lot more pets after that and was that as a result of your volunteering yes yes so rescue rescued animals
00:32:24 yes I think you say in your witness statement that aged 12 or 13 you started to go on National marches or events animal rights related events with friends at the weekends is that right yes it was um like World animal day um and um I think prior to that I'd started
00:32:41 and um I think prior to that I'd started I'd been um on Hunt Sab so I was I think I was about 14 and um it was people from the animal um rescue that I went with and so it only went I think went to a boxing day
00:32:55 only went I think went to a boxing day um meet of a fox hunt and then we went off and sabed a beagle pack and I think that that you just said um as you say in your statement that came about through the people that you were working with at the animal sanctuary yes
00:33:09 working with at the animal sanctuary yes yeah I was yeah I was volunteer I mean I was still at school but I volunteered sort of weekends and after school and virally any time that I could get down there I would I would go
00:33:22 could get down there I would I would go it was sort of a it was a few miles walk but I used to go and yeah spend as much time there as as I could so used to walk those few miles to get there yes and
00:33:34 those few miles to get there yes and Back Again presumably at the yes yeah so would you describe yourself by that age is fairly dedicated to animals yes very much and through that work that volunteering work at the sanctu you came to be at this Boxing Day hunt sabur
00:33:47 to be at this Boxing Day hunt sabur event yes I just ask you briefly about that What attracted you to go along to that in the first place um I think I was
00:34:05 that in the first place um I think I was very obviously anyone that loves animals is is anti hunt and you know there was lots of things around at the time so there was like a specific um like leaflet um that the HSA had put out and I wasn't I was never a member of the HSA but you know you'd see sort of like
00:34:16 but you know you'd see sort of like Street stalls and and that and I just remember you know thinking hunting was just you know it's appalling and cruel and you know I wanted to to sort of voice you know my my my thoughts on it
00:34:33 voice you know my my my thoughts on it so and there was a group of people going and you know I sort of like pushed my way into going with them so you you pushed yourself forwards rather than being brought along yes I'm afraid so and um I think you say in your witness statement that you were one of the
00:34:44 statement that you were one of the youngest people there on that first occasion is that right yes you were aged 13 or 14 I think you say in your
00:34:55 13 or 14 I think you say in your statements and how much older generally was everybody else I mean they all actually worked at this place so I think the youngest one would probably been about 19 or
00:35:11 20 um so yeah there was there was um there was probably about like five or six other people there but I would say the youngest was sort of 1920 and then everyone else was sort of considerably older than me and what was that
00:35:22 older than me and what was that experience like for you um it was
00:35:34 it may it just it just made me so angry um you know because like when you sort of like stabbing your hair um a hair pack because the hairs don't you they can't escape like they don't have you know they sort of they they live in kind of like sort of little furrows in the
00:35:50 of like sort of little furrows in the ground you know so they can't escape and you know being in the field with the beagles at one point there's as we were sort of walking towards the pack you
00:36:02 sort of walking towards the pack you know there was was I stepped over a hair as it was sort of Frozen on the ground and just had to pretend that I hadn't seen it and just make you know get the the pounds away so it
00:36:15 the pounds away so it was I mean I I never enjoyed sabbin you know there's always that you I used to feel sick at times just thinking that something was going to get killed um it was also a little bit sort of frightening and it wasn't this particular this particular time but it's you know I was just angry you know it
00:36:27 you know I was just angry you know it just just made me angry at these people all they wanted to do was just you know rip some defenseless animal to bit so yeah I was I was angry and just thought
00:36:38 yeah I was I was angry and just thought you know this is actually it's something you can see you have like once you you know once the animal gets away it's sort of you know that's you know what you've done you know
00:36:50 you know what you've done you know you've you've saved that animal for that day and some you know it's one of the things it's instant um so yeah it it just it made me feel it was a really worthwhile thing to do
00:37:04 I think given your young age it was suggested to you that you perhaps didn't come back for a while is that right um yes yeah they um yeah no one would take any responsibility for me so I couldn't go out again
00:37:17 go out again um sorry well yeah I think I was sort of a little bit maybe Larry um and so yeah I wasn't
00:37:28 yeah I wasn't yeah they wouldn't basically said like you're not coming out with us again um so yeah that was that was the end of my first lot of um saing and just so that
00:37:39 first lot of um saing and just so that it's not misunderstood when you use the word Larry what do you mean oh um quite a lot to say for myself and I'm not sure not shy of saying it
00:37:53 not sure not shy of saying it know really a surprise I don't think um to anyone
00:37:59 to anyone here all right we'll come back to your latest experiences of hunt saing when you were a bit older I think you returned to aged about 17 or 18 yes yes I'll come back to that just going back
00:38:10 I'll come back to that just going back to um your entry as it were into animal rights activism in addition to hunt saing I think you describe in your witness statement attending talks at um the British Union against Viva section I think that was yeah that was more I think like on the world day and
00:38:25 more I think like on the world day and stuff that was when those sort of things happened I I don't remember actually like going to anywhere it was you if it was like a demo or something quite often the people would
00:38:42 speak can I ask you some questions about your um your growing up your upbringing your growing up and your experiences um
00:38:54 your growing up and your experiences um up to and around that point in your life you describe in your witness statement um that you were um adopted as a baby and that you um suffered some bullying as a result can I ask you um just to
00:39:05 as a result can I ask you um just to explain what it was like growing up in those circumstances what it was like for Jessica um yeah I mean my my parents
00:39:18 Jessica um yeah I mean my my parents always wanted to be you know that they they wanted to tell me so they always wanted me to know so I think they told me as I was perhaps too young to understand and um at the time what they
00:39:29 understand and um at the time what they the only thing that I sort of took away from what they told me is that you know I had a different name as a baby and not really sort of understanding I remember asking my best friend said you know what was your name when you were a baby
00:39:42 was your name when you were a baby because babies come with different names and and he thought I was mad and went back and asked his mom who then sort of
00:39:55 back and asked his mom who then sort of said it must be because I was adopted um and then you know as kids do every time we fell out after that that was the thing that he used to sort of um say to me um it would always be like name calling and um I think probably the
00:40:11 calling and um I think probably the thing that stuck with me was like you know what what's wrong with you even your own mother didn't want you
00:40:16 you and yeah so I think you know I car I certainly carried that um and the shame of being adopted um from that age you know it's what I didn't you know I wouldn't I
00:40:27 what I didn't you know I wouldn't I never told people about it um you know because it just it just made me deeply deeply ashamed of it and you had um a brother is that
00:40:42 it and you had um a brother is that right yes yeah and I think he was killed in tragic circumstances whilst riding his bike wasn't he yes yeah um I was 11 and he was 15 and um I think he gone out
00:40:58 and he was 15 and um I think he gone out it was I some football match f final day um
00:41:04 um and yeah there then he he stopped him was talking to someone so he was actually sort of on the the curb and um a guy had was been to the pub and driving home and just went straight into the back of him so um yeah he was
00:41:20 the back of him so um yeah he was killed so aged 11 you had to deal with quite a significant bereavement yes yeah that um it yeah it change I mean it changed
00:41:35 yeah it change I mean it changed everything for you know for all of us um
00:41:36 um and yeah I mean my family was never the same you know it it destroyed our family
00:41:47 um yeah it's I mean I think everyone was trying to deal with it in their own kind of way and um my parents
00:42:02 my parents didn't really deal with it together I think they sort of dealt with it in their own way and and I was sort of left kind to deal with it myself um you know no through no fault of their own you know I've know
00:42:17 fault of their own you know I've know but I don't I've never blamed them but yeah I was sort of um yeah I had to kind of find my own way through
00:42:27 through that and Looking Back Now if you were asked to
00:42:28 asked to reflect how well do you think 11-year-old Jessica was able to find her own way through that um I don't know up
00:42:46 until up until kind of recent events that I thought I kind of done okay I thought you know no one I thought if nobody realized how how I actually
00:42:57 nobody realized how how I actually was you know if I could pretend that everything was okay and still make jokes and you know nobody really knew then I kind of thought that I was doing all
00:43:08 kind of thought that I was doing all right and so I think I think I thought I was doing
00:43:13 was doing okay and now do you have a different reflection on it
00:43:24 um I think looking at some of the things that have been said s of um this is jumping forwards a bit but it's particularly by um hn to
00:43:30 just how quite damaged I think I actually was
00:43:41 although no one wants to admit that and I would never admit it at the time but I think reading that you know I don't yeah I think I wasn't in a good a good place you know I tried to deal with it as well as I could but
00:43:53 um yeah I think
00:43:58 I think I
00:44:10 was I say vulnerable but pretending really hard not to be um but I was also and again it's you know kids can be horrible um I was then bullied because my brother had died
00:44:25 so it just I mean I guess what it taught me is you don't you don't share these things with people you know I don't I don't up until again recently I never spoke about being
00:44:37 recently I never spoke about being adopted um speak up my brother because you don't give people the ammunition to use against you should you fall out so
00:44:55 um yeah I think it obviously it obviously shaped who I am now because of what happened and so something you said in there can I just explore outwardly to other people would teenage Jessica have appeared
00:45:12 would teenage Jessica have appeared vulnerable or would teenage Jessica have appeared outwardly somewhat more robust than that
00:45:20 um I think I think I thought I appeared quite okay um but I don't think I was falling as as many people as I thought I was um and I think you know other people have said
00:45:36 think you know other people have said since you know people that I knew at the time and that have said you know I was very difficult to get close to I was quite prickly um I think was the word used
00:45:43 used um but yeah I I just wanted sort of to pretend that like nothing could you know nothing could get close to me and that I was
00:46:01 could get close to me and that I was okay that was that was the biggest sort of thing because I think you know I'd learned that if you if you seem weak
00:46:09 weak and I think you get you get really more if you appear weak so I just you know pretend things didn't bother me um but yeah I don't think I was making I think I was perhaps fooling anybody and I think subsequent to the
00:46:24 anybody and I think subsequent to the death of your brother you also suffered a number of other family bereavements during your teenage years is that right yes yeah
00:46:30 yes yeah um yeah sort of one one a year I think for like the next five or six years um you know which is I mean some of them were were
00:46:41 were were quite old but it's um I think it it it made me insecure um I didn't I didn't feel that I had any sort of firm like grounding because I
00:46:54 sort of firm like grounding because I just didn't know who would be next you know for a long time I just thought you know I was going to die at the same age as my brother would uh a brother had
00:47:05 as my brother would uh a brother had and you know it was it was just quite destabilizing so um I think one of the ways that I dealt with that
00:47:13 with that was to not want to be close to anybody because it was it was so much worse when they died
00:47:21 they died so that was you know that was the only way I could sort of deal with it at the time is you just don't get close to people and so that was my I think my attitude towards
00:47:32 attitude towards people and we'll come in a lot more detail to things that happened when you were 19 years of age but up until that age did you have any close romantic or
00:47:46 age did you have any close romantic or Intimate Relationships no I'd had I mean the sort of the like the boyfriend at school where sort of like their friend would ask you if you go out with them and and then like you just like nod at
00:47:57 and and then like you just like nod at school and that would be boyfriend you know that was my only sort of like you know my only previous kind of boyfriend thing so no and I didn't you know that
00:48:11 thing so no and I didn't you know that was the last thing that I was bothered about at
00:48:17 all I think there came a time you describe in your statement um when you were at College you describe having a breakdown I think
00:48:28 you describe having a breakdown I think is the word you use can you tell us just briefly what happened to you and what the result of that was
00:48:31 was um yeah it was [Music]
00:48:36 [Music] um I'd had I had to vear like social anxiety and things so if like if I would go into a room and there was too many people I couldn't go into that room and I just I wouldn't
00:48:48 I just I wouldn't speak I had this real like bad anxiety and one of the um my mass Shooters asked me a question and I answered it
00:48:59 me a question and I answered it but I think so quietly he didn't hear me and then he just like he just made a complete he just humiliated me you know I was stupid and and I couldn't I couldn't go I never went back to that class I couldn't go
00:49:13 went back to that class I couldn't go back I couldn't go to my other classes I just I think it just felt you know it was it was like it was
00:49:25 felt you know it was it was like it was an adult that just that had been a bully and that I just you know I'd had enough I think at that point
00:49:31 um and and I couldn't I was they were threatened that I would like I'd lose if I didn't s of start going back to classes they kicked me out so I went to the doctor and and explained everything
00:49:49 the doctor and and explained everything and um and they gave me some tablets and I managed to go back I never went back to his class I couldn't um but I went back and finished like my other classes um but yeah I couldn't I couldn't just couldn't do it and I
00:50:00 I couldn't just couldn't do it and I needed some you know at that point I think I realized I needed something to to
00:50:13 help and again I'll come back to it later but but that is is it the lead up to you age 19 going to live in East London and moving out of your parents home age 19 yes
00:50:25 home age 19 yes yeah as I say we'll come back to that in more detail later can I go back to the topic of um hunt
00:50:36 can I go back to the topic of um hunt sabbin so we've you've spoken about uh the first hunt Saab that you went on when you were aged about 14 you returned according to your witness statement to that activity aged about 17 or 18 through someone you met through the hatney and isington animal
00:50:47 through the hatney and isington animal rights yes group is that right yeah um and then you describe in your statement
00:50:58 and then you describe in your statement that from then onwards you went out with different hunt Saab groups at different times was that that quite regular that activity for you yes um yeah I was I think I was going out particularly like midweek um because obviously most people work so a lot of
00:51:15 obviously most people work so a lot of the Sab it was big on like Saturdays but I used to go out and Sab midweek so um and I used to collect people I mean I only had many at the time but I would pick people up and then go to sort of a pickup point and meet others um but yeah I mean over the years I've said with sort of four or five different
00:51:28 sort of four or five different groups and the mini you learned to drive when you were 17 did you yes and you had a car from the moment you could drive is that yes position uh yeah I did um when
00:51:39 that yes position uh yeah I did um when I was after I immediately left school I did a a yts scheme and um that uh youth training youth training yes yeah well
00:51:51 training youth training yes yeah well young thicking stupid as we used to call it um but we we had like like we paid 20275 p week and we were in the middle of nowhere with nowhere to go so we saved up everything and then as soon as I Learned to Drive um I bought myself a
00:52:09 I Learned to Drive um I bought myself a car and that car we see it mentioned in the papers it was a red mini wasn't it yes yeah and so you would use that red mini to get to hunt Sab events is that
00:52:21 mini to get to hunt Sab events is that yes and sometimes with other people in company with you yes how did you make contact with the different groups of hunt Saabs can you give us an idea of how that worked um I
00:52:30 I think
00:52:32 think um I me to guess it's it's the people that you meet because um is it it wasn't wasn't announced
00:52:43 wasn't announced anywhere or I guess maybe would phone up someone and just sort of say you know what time they're meeting because quite often um sabs would have like a meet card for the Hunts and so we would know
00:52:54 card for the Hunts and so we would know where they were going to be and sort of what time so then there'd be like pre-arrange you know we meet at such and such a station at 10 and and so yeah I
00:53:10 such a station at 10 and and so yeah I guess it was I guess it would have been me CU I I didn't have like a um it was like pre-mobile phone so I didn't we' have had people's numbers to
00:53:21 call but actually and sometimes um if there wasn't other people there I just go to the meet in my car so you might just travel alone to to where other P you knew other people would be hunts having um not I mean not always I think the the least I mean that was me and one other person SE this a reunion one one
00:53:37 other person SE this a reunion one one week day um but yeah if there was no one else going then I would go yeah I would just I would drive to the meat or near it and in this period so when you're age 17 to 18 and you're going quite
00:53:49 17 to 18 and you're going quite regularly can you describe the sort of tactics that you and those you were with would Deploy on a htb yeah I mean it was it was the um it used to be in the
00:54:10 it was the um it used to be in the beginning it was anti-at so it was like the of citronell like aerosol cans um but then later on we used to buy the sort of like the big um citronella things and then water them down and put them in spray bottles and that was to master the scent um so so just to pause for people who don't that's you going
00:54:25 for people who don't that's you going around spraying on on what Hedges ground yeah I mean particularly sort of sometimes if you see where the fox ran then you'd wait until it was outside and then if you we would spray across the scent so that if the hounds came they
00:54:40 scent so that if the hounds came they all that they get is the sort of the you know the citronella so they lose the scents of the fox so you're creating a barrier between the hunt and the fox yeah it just it just sort of confuses them gives the fox a chance to get away
00:54:56 them gives the fox a chance to get away and and sort of confuses them um and um also we had hunting horns um as well well and um and there was the Gizmo which was it used to play sort of the sound of like Hounds in cry so the
00:55:07 sound of like Hounds in cry so the hounds if they hear like hounds going to cry somewhere else then they know they're on a scense so they'll come so like you could do it in a field and literally the whole pack would come thinking they're on to
00:55:18 thinking they're on to something what sort of reaction did the Hunts people have to you and others using those tactics not a very good one um
00:55:29 um yeah there I mean there was there was quite a lot of violence um you know yeah I've been in quite a few scrapes and that you know I mean just our presence sometimes being there
00:55:44 just our presence sometimes being there was you know was enough to sort of to um to have
00:55:49 to have unprovoked attacks and things so yeah I've seen quite a lot could you help is there any example particular example you can remember to give an idea of what that
00:56:03 remember to give an idea of what that was like in practice yeah um like one of the there was a particular was one particular Rider who um she can make her horse bu and so she used to position herself and then I don't know what she would do to the horse but it would sort
00:56:15 would do to the horse but it would sort of just lash out with both back feet and I saw one of the sabs have her arm broken um so kicked by the horse yeah yeah um but people being ridden down you know we were always being like barged out way with the horses and you know
00:56:27 out way with the horses and you know it's and then also I mean the probably the worst sort of threat was either if like the the Riders were actually riding quite hard at you um and you know s of
00:56:40 quite hard at you um and you know s of one of one of my friends was taken off in an ambulance because it were ridden
00:56:51 in an ambulance because it were ridden down um and I think had broken ribs but you know yeah bruises and you know and cutthe heads and um yeah there were there were quite a lot of in injuries you know I have had a few like lumps and bumps and things um but I mean I know
00:57:04 bumps and things um but I mean I know around the time I was saing I think was um around when Mike Hill was
00:57:15 um around when Mike Hill was killed and and also one of the other um sabs which was later one of the ones that I think I used to Sab with was severely injured um very badly and and another like 15-year-old hsab was killed as well so it was um and also so the um the S
00:57:32 also so the um the S Union um hunt master was charged with I think it was abh for riding his horse over somebody um and sort of G like had lacerations in his head because he was at in a fox
00:57:46 at in a fox Earth um yeah there's there's lots of of them you know and I mean when it didn't even if there wasn't you know sort of injuries and stuff but there was a lot of threats all of the time you know the
00:57:58 of threats all of the time you know the it's quite often see them there with you pickaxe handles or pick taes Spades you know any kind of implement but we were you know whenever we went anywhere you know we never carried there was nothing in the van because whatever happened you knew you'd be stopped you knew you'd be
00:58:14 knew you'd be stopped you knew you'd be searched if there was anything that they could remotely say was a weapon then it would be taken and we'd be arrested so you know
00:58:15 you know we we
00:58:17 we we didn't you know we didn't I've heard of like some of the other evidence in that saying that it was us that caused it you know it it wasn't and it got in the way of sabbin that was the thing thing is if you could avoid it it was far better to
00:58:30 you could avoid it it was far better to avoid it because you know it got in the way you didn't want to be you know fighting with somebody whilst the hounds are killing so you know that was the only reason any us were out there was to to try and stop the animals being killed did you ever see a hunt Sab react to
00:58:46 did you ever see a hunt Sab react to threats or or threatened violence with violence or the threat of violence themselves I've seen them like respond and I've done it you know I've done it myself you don't I'm not going to stand there and I don't know many people that would stand there and be
00:58:59 would stand there and be hit and not try and defend themselves you know it was it would be worse I think it' be worse you know I used to Sab with someone that was um a
00:59:12 Sab with someone that was um a well-known pacifist and he would get he get beaten pretty much every time you know he would just roll into a ball and would just end up getting a kicking and you know you you can't I won't do that you know I'm not going to be um
00:59:31 I think it's more it's more dangerous you know if at least they think that you know you sort of you will defend yourself I think a lot of the time it you know it sort of diffuses the situation but no not in not to go out to do it it's pointless you know we're
00:59:42 do it it's pointless you know we're arrested for doing nothing anyway so that's the last thing I think any of us would do would be to go out and actually intentionally do it you know I don't remember seeing anything like that the
00:59:55 remember seeing anything like that the inquiries heard some evidence about the Brixton hunt sabur group I think you went out with them sometimes is that right yeah um and the inquiry has heard evidence to suggest that they were perhaps more robust in defending
01:00:06 perhaps more robust in defending themselves than other hunt sabar groups was that your experience of them yeah I think so and and also it was sort of a lot of it was kind of was
01:00:19 lot of it was kind of was reputation um you know it was they had a really like sort of fearsome reputation you know which used to be I mean it was quite funny at times you know we used to say so that the hunt could hear us it's like what you know what time Brixton
01:00:32 like what you know what time Brixton going to be here and it you know in a way it sort of like no hunt really wanted brixon to you know to to be there but half the time it wasn't you know that wasn't sort
01:00:45 that wasn't sort of it wasn't the case it just meant that there was a load of sort of like you know
01:00:46 know London load of like londoners turned up you know but it was it was very much you know they're not sort of country people you know they're City people um but
01:00:57 you know they're City people um but yeah you know I but you I mean they wouldn't be pushed around I think that was you know that's the difference that was the difference in you know in saing with
01:01:11 with them and did they get that reputation because they were themselves more violent than the average h no no it's it's um the evidence that the inquiries received from Andrew Cole's hn2 in his witness statement it's
01:01:24 hn2 in his witness statement it's paragraph 158 for those noting suggests that the brickton hunt sabs had a fearsome reputation for being violent at Hunt do you you disagree with that no they had a fear some reputation for standing up for
01:01:36 standing up for themselves but you know not no not the way that he puts it no I guess I'm what I would I'm trying to seek your assistance with is how how did they get that reputation if not by
01:01:51 did they get that reputation if not by the use of violence in the first place I think there was also there was a lot of them as well so it was you know I mean that that's the thing as well when you call like a you know a sort of a mass hit on
01:02:05 hit on um on a hunt it would be there would be loads of people turning up and I think you know it was just like they were all brickton and it was yeah it was more it was more reputation than you
01:02:22 reputation than you know than actual sort of violence and stuff it was like the reputation was enough um
01:02:29 enough um the officer known by the noral hn 87 has described the Brixton hunt sabur group
01:02:40 described the Brixton hunt sabur group as trashing cars so damaging vehicles of hunts did you see anything like that or did you become aware of them doing anything like
01:02:51 that on occasion did you attend hunt Sab um hunt sabs with um hn2
01:02:53 hn2 yes what do you recall about the frequency of his involvement in Hunt
01:03:04 frequency of his involvement in Hunt sapping During the period you knew him I don't remember very much I mean there's a picture there is a picture um of us together but I don't remember I don't remember that I didn't even realize that that was me
01:03:15 that was me um I really I really don't have any like recollection and so of him I I mean I remember his van sort of being there you know that was it's more you know you look cuz when you're out in sort of the field you look for the vehicles and stuff and so remember like piling into
01:03:26 stuff and so remember like piling into the back of you know of his van um but no I mean I I remember hm1 more on sabs
01:03:37 no I mean I I remember hm1 more on sabs and I do him but you know we were at at ones together let's just get up that photograph whilst you've mentioned onto the screen please ucpi 037
01:03:55 1116 A5 A5 sir in your bundle thank you I think this is a photograph that's um you've enlarged to assist the inquiry and do we see to the left of the photograph Andrew koh's standing there he appears to have
01:04:14 koh's standing there he appears to have camouflage trousers a long sleeve um top and a body warmer and a hat yeah and next to him is you yes it's described in the caption as brickton hunt sabar on a hunt Sab action Hampshire 25th of Janu January
01:04:30 Hampshire 25th of Janu January 1992 um are you able to assist with whether that caption is correct or not um I believe it is actually because it's written on the back of the photo so do you have the original photograph um
01:04:46 do you have the original photograph um no but I know who take it and so you've seen the original yeah and there's a date on the back which matches
01:04:57 that thank you and just whilst you've mentioned it we can take that down you've mentioned hm1 cover name Matt rer you recall him being present on Hunt Sab events and how frequently do you think
01:05:11 events and how frequently do you think you attended hunt sabs at which he was also present um I say a few times because he was more he was West London um and like I was really good friends with um some of the West London people
01:05:24 with um some of the West London people so if I was staying with them then I'd end up going out with West London and what do you recall in terms of the sorts of things he would do on a
01:05:36 of the sorts of things he would do on a hunt Sab if anything I don't really have that much I just know he was you know I I can picture his face I know that he was there um and and a van I think he had have a blue van I think but he I just I remember him being there because
01:05:51 just I remember him being there because he was also like he was called chisik I think that was his his um his nickname was chisik and so I can remember him being there because and I also knew him from London boots Action
01:06:01 Group but in terms of what he might have done on any given no I don't I I don't
01:06:10 remember thank you I want to change topic slightly now just to ask you for your views and and definitions on the Al and Alf
01:06:21 and Alf activism you are aware that um Andrew Cole's
01:06:22 Cole's hn2 um has said and I'll come back to the detail but has said that you were identified to him as an Al girl
01:06:34 identified to him as an Al girl yeah what how would you define an Alf activist um someone that regularly breaks the law either to like rescue
01:06:45 breaks the law either to like rescue animals um or sort of nonviolent direct action um
01:06:47 action um to
01:06:52 to um like shops and places that like self for things like that
01:07:04 coming to the um detail then of what um Andrew Cole's hn2 has said about your connection to the um Al um he has said in his witness statement that it was an individual that the inquiry is calling J R
01:07:15 the inquiry is calling J R A yes you got that on the cipher yes who told him that you were an Al girl to use the phrase wit statement
01:07:39 um could we have up on screen a report um written or attributed it attributed sorry to Andrew Cole's hn2 it's MPS 0730
01:07:46 970 it's B6 so in your
01:07:55 bundle um I'm not going to read all of this into the record um in part for reasons um not to breach a reporting restriction but I just want to ask you this please Jessica you should also have on your Cipher
01:08:07 on your Cipher list at the bottom the name of the person who's the subject of the yeah so you know who it's about and we see it's dated the 1st of
01:08:18 about and we see it's dated the 1st of May 1992 so that's a time when in fact you were living in East London I think is that right yes and the associates of the subject of the report include JRA
01:08:30 the subject of the report include JRA who is said to live with the subject of the report and includes uh you firstly did you know the subject of this report yes and did you know
01:08:45 this report yes and did you know JRA um I don't um oh hang on um oh yes yes I did and can you describe by May 1992 how well you knew JRA I knew I knew
01:08:58 1992 how well you knew JRA I knew I knew who he was and and like we probably knew each other to nod to but I don't think I've ever had a conversation with him and in what circumstances oh hunt huning
01:09:19 yeah um other than hunt sabbin excuse me had you been involved in any other animal rights related action with JRA no
01:09:28 JRA no um do you mean like um Direct action so rescuing animals something could fall under an
01:09:32 under an Alan no not at all no I think we like we may have been on like the world world day I think I think he it was that sort of thing or any like um Sab sort of demos or something but nothing no
01:09:49 demos or something but nothing no nothing um a left no and what about with the subject of the report no again I just knew her through saing
01:09:59 thank you we can take that
01:10:07 down can you assist in any way with whether or not
01:10:17 JRA would have been likely to describe you as connected to the AL no like I I didn't know him I didn't know him well enough and at that point I don't think that
01:10:26 that [Music]
01:10:29 [Music] um I don't think that I would have known him probably as well as I did by the last time I saw him so that's s quite early on so he wouldn't he wouldn't have know apart from the fact I wasn't an Al girl no one describes anyone you know
01:10:41 girl no one describes anyone you know that's the last thing you would say to anyone about anyone you know it's it's stupid and it's you know and it's quite dangerous as well so there's not a chance that he would have said that you know even if it it had been true he
01:10:54 know even if it it had been true he wouldn't have said it it wasn't true you know there's a lot of things wrong with that so I there was no way I don't think that he would have said that at all and just explain why would why it would be dangerous why you saying that or why you wouldn't have said it because you
01:11:05 wouldn't have said it because you wouldn't accuse somebody you wouldn't say that about somebody in case it got back to you know to other people it's you know we were we weren't stupid you
01:11:20 you know we were we weren't stupid you don't oh yeah they did this or they did that you know no one knew any of the things that sort of happened you wouldn't ever point to anyone and said that's what they are um you know Bly I didn't really know
01:11:32 didn't really know him in that first part of 1992 so say from January to may had you been engaging in activity that might be described as Alf activity so we'll come to it later for example you were involved in rescuing chickens on a f
01:11:45 involved in rescuing chickens on a f raid for example had you been involved in any of that the first that was the first like sort of Al thing that I ever the only Alf thing I ever did
01:12:00 and that's June I think of 1992 or there about so after yeah I can't certainly after you had met Andrew CO's yeah yeah
01:12:24 yes amongst the people with whom you Associated through hunt sabbin were you aware of people who were engaged in Al activities no not at all
01:12:35 no did you come to learn that there were people involved in Al activity for example you you ended up becoming involved in something that that might fall under that umbrella did you become aware that others were involved in similar actions no I mean the the
01:12:49 similar actions no I mean the the chicken thing I sort of I only knew when I met the people that were actually involved they didn't know anything about who before hand or anything like that you know I knew about Jeff and that so i' um I used to go to um hacky isington
01:13:04 i' um I used to go to um hacky isington alamore IES things and some like London Green Piece stuff so I knew Jeff and I knew that he'd been involved in the um deams thing so that was the only person that I knew that had been that was sort
01:13:18 that I knew that had been that was sort of Alf that's Jeff sheeper oh sorry yes Jeff sheeper not at all so you knew because he had been to prison that he had been involved acity was he the only person who came to your attention
01:13:30 your attention yes I think then I mean we used to get um I think in the house that we lived in that we used to get like the um the
01:13:41 that we used to get like the um the alfsg letters and stuff so you I knew a load of the names um of people but I didn't you know at that time I didn't know you know there were just names I didn't know any of
01:13:54 didn't know any of them one of the things I'm paraphrasing but one of the things that Andrew Cole said says in his witness statement is that one of the reasons he um took steps to get closer to you and your friends was because he thought that would get
01:14:07 was because he thought that would get him closer to an Alf cell what what's your comment on on whether someone getting close to you and your friends might thereby get to people who were
01:14:18 might thereby get to people who were involved in Alf action no it was the only sale was kind of the the thing that that happened was because of him it wasn't you know it wouldn't have happened and that so he's kind of like he created a cell that then I was you
01:14:31 he created a cell that then I was you know sort of in if that's what you want to call it I think it's a bit sort of um you know it it it implies that it was sort of like way more organized and stuff it you know it was but no I mean
01:14:45 stuff it you know it was but no I mean that was purely because of him you know that was the first sort of thing and I think you know I kind of had to be persuaded I think to to do that you know it was
01:14:50 it was quite it was pretty sort of like nerve-wracking and you know it took I mean it probably didn't take a lot of persuading but you know it wouldn't have
01:15:01 persuading but you know it wouldn't have been anything that I would have done had it not for been for him um putting to one side you personally or a sense of organization just for the moment not to discard your answer but just a slightly
01:15:23 discard your answer but just a slightly different question if you if if a police officer was looking to find individuals involved in the AL would befriending you be likely to get them access to those people no
01:15:32 one other thing I just want to ask you about that Andrew CO's hn2 says in his witness statement He suggests that you had wider contacts with animal Liberation um liberationists elsewhere in the UK it's paragraph 277 for those
01:15:50 in the UK it's paragraph 277 for those noting did you have contacts with animal liberationists elsewhere in the UK so outside of London I might have had friends in like other places like we Saed quite a lot with um like Brighton
01:16:05 Saed quite a lot with um like Brighton and that's I had a couple of friends in Brighton um and I mean people that you know just friends that you know like that you meet places and stuff I think he's he's mischaracterizing it you know I have friends that were interested in animal rights that were from different
01:16:18 animal rights that were from different places but it's not how it's not how he says it that's kind of that's like tarting up a little
01:16:26 bit and if um it was suggested that the people that you knew around the country were involved with the AL what would you say to that I wouldn't have know I wouldn't have known and I
01:16:37 wouldn't have known and I can't I doubt I doubt it I doubt it but you know it's not anything that I would have that I would have you know there
01:16:49 have that I would have you know there were friends that were interested in in animal rights or that I sabed with you know that was as far as it it went right I'll come back a bit later in my question to ask you some more
01:17:00 my question to ask you some more detailed questions about the great hooky farm that you've mentioned in passing all right can I just ask you about Hackney and is lingon animal rights that you mentioned there yes um I think you say in your witness statement that a
01:17:12 say in your witness statement that a friend from college found out about the group through timeout magazine as yeah so advertised in a publicly available magazine yes yeah and you went together uh to London to attend one of their meetings yes and you say that the first meeting you recall involved I think
01:17:26 meeting you recall involved I think meeting up with the group and then going out leafleting is that right you met Paul grait through Hackney in histon animal rights how well did you come to know Mr grait in the early 90s um I mean he's he's a friendly guy
01:17:45 90s um I mean he's he's a friendly guy so you know every time I would meet him and stuff you know we' have a chat and you know he was we were just sort of interested in similar things so he was you know he was a bit older than than me I mean I think at times it used to feel
01:17:56 I mean I think at times it used to feel like sort of like me and my friends were because me and my friend were quite a bit younger than everyone else so like some of I mean some of the like the particularly the London Green Peace sort group you know I think just thought of
01:18:08 group you know I think just thought of us as sort of like kids you know so but he was not him you know he was always sort of like had the time of day for us you know and same as as Jeff so it was only those two that I really sort of like knew from
01:18:19 like knew from um you know they're the only ones I really like remember I think so Jeff sheeper in connection with Hackney and his L animal rights and Paul grait in connection with Hackney and his animal
01:18:35 connection with Hackney and his animal rights and you've told us what you knew about Jeff Shephard did you have any reason to connect Paul grait to ALF activity based on what you knew
01:18:43 no you describe in your witness statement continuing to attend meetings of the group after that first leafletting session and you say that you got more involved with the group what sorts of activities did you get involved in with that group it was it was just
01:18:54 in with that group it was it was just like picketing sort of shops and handing out leaflets we used to do um because it sort of whether it I don't think it turned into London boots Action Group but it or London boots action group
01:19:07 but it or London boots action group became sort of a thing and then it was that was more sort of the target then of what we did it was like handing out leaflets for London boots Action Group and um but we would pick it like fur
01:19:23 and um but we would pick it like fur shops and I think selfes like one time but there would be like a different different thing and also circuses and stuff you know handing out leaflets and things so it was it was like broad spectrum of um of animal rights
01:19:36 spectrum of um of animal rights causes and could you give us a flavor of what those pickets were like were you shouting slogans were you quiet were you handing out literature were you I always had leaflets because you know that's otherwise you know people no idea why
01:19:50 otherwise you know people no idea why you're there um sometimes we would have like banners um I think somewhere somebody got onto a roof and held like a Banner Over the Top you know sort of like a bed sheet Banner um and you know yeah chanting kind of like you know
01:20:02 yeah chanting kind of like you know boots talk to beagles and you know oh McDonald's used to go on the McDonald's things as well so but it was you know there was nothing there was no like I
01:20:13 there was nothing there was no like I mean probably the only thing that we got into trouble for was maybe obstructing the public Highway um or that was what we used to get sort of stopped for but you know it wasn't it was it was walking up and down outside the shop handing out leaflets basically
01:20:27 leaflets basically you've referred to London boots Action Group in your statement I think you describe it growing out of ha and is lingon Animal Rights Campaign can you just describe how you understood London
01:20:40 just describe how you understood London boots Action Group came about um I think well maybe that it was like we would go to the hacking isington animal rights but then there would be sort of if there was a and I guess they would have
01:20:51 was a and I guess they would have happened at the same time but we just tended to go more than to the London boots action groups it might have been
01:21:02 boots action groups it might have been that there was easier to get to cuz hcky and isington was you know it was a bit of a pain to get to um but we yeah we just went to um ended up more of the boots things or like or that was a more
01:21:13 boots things or like or that was a more regular um a more regular picket I think I think in your witness statement you describe some of the same people so was it quite fluid there was crossover yeah it was like sometimes you you know it could be it could be any of probably about like five groups because the same
01:21:25 about like five groups because the same people were in like all five groups you know it was just it was someone has said you know you think it was a hack in isington you know thing and it would turn out I know it was it was boots Action Group you know but it was all it
01:21:39 Action Group you know but it was all it was all you know every issue was a sort of was an important issue you know to each group so it could be yeah the same people were always at the same things and you mentioned it being easier to get to um London boots action group
01:21:50 to get to um London boots action group meetings where did that group meet was it somewhere around Houston I think we see reference to Ensley Street sometimes yeah I think so I just I just remember
01:22:01 yeah I think so I just I just remember that getting to Hackney lington was was a bit of a pain so if it was I don't know I don't know where it used to be well it would be at different shops like each time so oh I see the actual events the yes yeah it's like you know to like
01:22:14 the yes yeah it's like you know to like this time we're going to go to boots in wherever
01:22:19 wherever um and in terms of the London boots Action Group just focusing on that you've explained the sorts of activities that you would do again through that group did you come to know of anybody who was involved in Al style criminal
01:22:35 who was involved in Al style criminal activity no so the suggestion that um London boots Action Group acted as a front of some kind for individuals who wanted to make connections with other
01:22:48 wanted to make connections with other like-minded Al activists what do you say to that I don't think so did you ever experience anything in your time associating with members of London boots Action Group which came anywhere close to discussion of Alf activity involvement in rather than yeah no it
01:22:59 involvement in rather than yeah no it was you you would go you'd have like a sort of the thing to do that day you go you hand out the leaflets for however many hours you know you go to the pub and and that was it and then the next
01:23:11 and and that was it and then the next thing you know you say oh we're going to do such and such next weekend you know we go and pick it so and so and that but I don't remember it just it just didn't happen you know I don't so the only I mean again it's it's hat too that is the
01:23:25 mean again it's it's hat too that is the only you know that's the only thing that ever came out of anyone that I knew from like London boots action group or anything that you're describing that's the only time that that ever sort of
01:23:41 the only time that that ever sort of ever happened and just to be clear the only time is the great hook yeah yeah farm
01:23:42 farm raid so so not the sort not the case that for example if you went to the pub after a London boots action group event people might say would you be interested
01:23:54 people might say would you be interested in that sort of AC no that didn't happen no
01:24:01 you mentioned earlier that hn1 cover name Matt Raina was somebody you knew through this group yes yeah are you able to recall anything about the nature of his participation in in London boots
01:24:17 his participation in in London boots Action Group um he was just sort of he I just remember him sort of be you know being there so we would hand out leaflets or be holding the banner or you know it's the same as everyone else really I don't there was nothing about him that kind of stood out
01:24:33 him that kind of stood out as as well was memorable you know he was just one of the group you know the only thing that I um the only way the only thing I remember particularly about him is that I somebody had said to me or it was It was kind of common knowledge
01:24:45 was It was kind of common knowledge amongst people it's like he's you know don't don't trust him there was something about him that some people
01:24:57 something about him that some people um were suspicious of and and you know that one point I remember saying I actually said to him um asked me something or my response to him was what you know but would tell you know tell
01:25:09 you know but would tell you know tell you you dodgy you know sort of kind of a bit as a joke but also as if you know I didn't trust him because other people didn't trust him so um but that's the only like that's the only time I ever really remember actually sort of like in any kind of
01:25:25 actually sort of like in any kind of conversation or anything with him I just want to break that down a little bit um if you look at your Cipher list there's an individual that the inquir is calling George that you say in your witness statement that George was the was he the sort of the root of the
01:25:37 was he the sort of the root of the speculation or the suspicion he was the person that said that to me yes and was the suspicion that hm1 Matthew Raina was a police officer or something less specific um I don't
01:25:49 something less specific um I don't remember necessarily a police officer just something just was just be careful I think was like just don't don't trust him so I don't I don't think I would have specifically said like that it was
01:26:00 have specifically said like that it was you know he was police officer um all I remember was like he's a bit dodgy don't trust him particular just the word dodgy that was sort of
01:26:15 that was sort of um yeah I remember that exact word being used was it ever suggested to you by George that he had any of evidence or
01:26:26 George that he had any of evidence or confirmation not that I remember he may well have told me but I can't remember and I think you described saying something to hm1 to the effect that could you repeat what you said just car so I wouldn't tell you anyway CU you're dodgy so you said that to his face yeah
01:26:40 dodgy so you said that to his face yeah and do you remember what that was about no do you remember how he reacted I think just sort of like you know Shrugged I don't think you
01:26:52 like you know Shrugged I don't think you know there was nothing he didn't sort of I didn't kind of say you know oh yeah I could tell he was you know there was sort no reaction I think just thought I was a bit of a pratt um but yeah he didn't um yeah no like not as though
01:27:04 didn't um yeah no like not as though he'd just been caught or anything like that no no real reaction as far as you were aware was there any particular
01:27:16 there any particular incident that gave rise to the suspicion not as far as I know and as far as you were aware was did anybody ever directly confront hm1 Matt rain no I don't think so with the
01:27:31 suspicion I think people treated him differently um you know that was but then I think like the longer that he was sort of there I think those of suspicions died
01:27:43 suspicions died down um so is your recollection that the suspicions were mainly focused on when he arrived on the scene as it were um it may have been or maybe when George did
01:27:55 may have been or maybe when George did but when they sort of you know I think initially it was you know there was something that didn't seem to be you know that George had sort of an issue with but then I think like the
01:28:07 issue with but then I think like the longer the longer that you know that was just ignored and that he was around and sort of doing stuff I think it just of it just kind of um it was like well you know George is maybe you know being a bit you know overly
01:28:21 bit you know overly suspicious so yeah it just kind of after a while it it just went away so the suspicion Fizzles out and hm1
01:28:32 so the suspicion Fizzles out and hm1 Mata carries on yeah as before I won't bring it up on the screen but I think you've been able to produce to the inquiry two address books from this time yes in which you had written the cover name and cover address and I think a a
01:28:47 name and cover address and I think a a contact number major or phone number for hm1 is that right yes and likewise you had the details for the person who was known to you as Andy van so hn2 yes do you have any recollection of how
01:28:59 yes do you have any recollection of how you came to get the contact details for hm1 no I don't know cuz I don't I can't ever imagine me ever going to get in
01:29:10 ever imagine me ever going to get in touch with him because of what because of what you know what I've been told about him about him being sort of dodgy so I don't know I don't know why I would have it you know but then again I mean it's if it's a Sab if it was a sabbin thing because you know I know I
01:29:24 sabbin thing because you know I know I mean I've been in his van for stabbing and stuff so it's you know it might have been that even sort of like as a for a pickup somewhere so so do you have a clear recollection that you traveled to hunt
01:29:39 recollection that you traveled to hunt saing in the van of Matt rer hm1 yeah I remember being in sort of like I mean the inside of a van is like inside of many other vans that but yeah I do because I can remember you know you're always aware of particularly like the drivers and stuff and so I remember
01:29:52 drivers and stuff and so I remember being you know in his in his van and going to some hunt somewh
01:30:00 right thank you I touched upon it before I'm going to come back to it in more detail now the time came didn't it when you were aged um about 19 where you moved from your parents home to an
01:30:11 moved from your parents home to an address in East London yes and we've GED it we've redacted the precise address so I'm just going to refer to it as your East London address but I think you understand what I'm referring to at the time you moved there
01:30:31 to at the time you moved there um I think you describe it as early 1992 are you able to be any more precise not really
01:30:38 really no and could you give us an idea of how many months you lived there for
01:30:46 for um I guess it's about six months I would think so around about that I can't I it's really hard to be you know precise and how did you come to live in your East London address um my friend that used to go to um hacky
01:30:57 um my friend that used to go to um hacky is that found the hackin isington animal rights thing she was living there and so she was uh like you attending Hackney
01:31:09 she was uh like you attending Hackney and isington animal rights yeah did she have any other involvement in animal rights
01:31:13 rights activity um the same the same as I did I for a long time like we would do most things together and do you know how she found that accommodation it I think um
01:31:27 found that accommodation it I think um one of the other people that lived there was um someone one from um London boots Action
01:31:37 Group the house itself it was a house wasn't it yes and it was occupied by multiple individuals so shared accommodation and you took up a room in that shared house is could you describe um your room where
01:31:51 is could you describe um your room where it was in the house it was the front top bedroom so it looked out over the like the tiny little little front garden and the
01:32:04 the road and what furniture was in that room um I think there was just like two Dean bed things so yeah there was like my Dean bed I think maybe like a little table and then like another bed that was sort of under the window and were those single beds double beds yes
01:32:23 single how many mattresses in the room one cuz M mine was the only one that had a mattress the other one was just the like the base bit I don't if that's the ACT maybe that's the div bit but it didn't have a mattress on the
01:32:34 didn't have a mattress on the top and no mattresses on the floor or anywhere else
01:32:45 no did we sorry did you um have um a dog when you lived at that address not initially no at some point you did yes are you able to assist us with when um it's
01:32:54 it's it will be I've written it in my statement it was yeah it was can have it up on the screen to help you oh okay page not at all it's not not at all you don't have to apologize it's uh
01:33:05 don't have to apologize it's uh Jessica's witness statement please ucpi 037
01:33:07 037 092 page
01:33:09 092 page 26 paragraph
01:33:20 4.12 it was top of page 26 please
01:33:27 and you say there we only got a dog in August 1992 I know this because we got him at the depford free Festival which was held on the 1st of August 1992 yes yeah I did actually I did also have my dog there at the time but she didn't she
01:33:40 dog there at the time but she didn't she only would come for like like a few days because she lived with my mom and dad so she I know that um I had her at that time because we went to the to the
01:33:52 time because we went to the to the depford festival with one dog and we came back with two dogs and a pigeon we found a pigeon on the way so that's that's how I remember all right so the the dog that
01:34:05 remember all right so the the dog that you're referring to as having before the depford festival was your dog that you had had when you lived with your parents who was essentially coming to visit in London regularly uh no no not really I
01:34:20 London regularly uh no no not really I would take her I would just take her for like a few days and stuff so and then take her
01:34:22 take her home when
01:34:24 home when your dog stayed with you at the East London address um where did your dog sleep uh she would she always slept in
01:34:35 sleep uh she would she always slept in my bed in your bed in my bed yes so so with you
01:34:36 with you yes did she ever sleep on the other single Divan Bas in your bed no she wouldn't she never slept anywhere else my parents used to be mad about it but
01:34:48 my parents used to be mad about it but she never slept anywhere else when I was at home and stepped in my bed was I rescued I rescued her when one of the places that I worked and yeah she was quite sort of she was very attached
01:35:01 was quite sort of she was very attached so yeah she always slept in my bed with me it's very much your your dog yes just sticking with the setup of the
01:35:13 yes just sticking with the setup of the shared house in East London if I can for a moment you've told us about your bedroom front top uh sorry front upstairs bedroom um in your witness statement you also describ that your friend so your friend who you went to
01:35:27 friend so your friend who you went to hatney and Islington animal rights with she had um a bedroom in the house as well where was that room it was directly below mine so when you went in the front door it was to the left so it was I
01:35:38 door it was to the left so it was I think it would have been originally like a living room of the house but it was like it was turned into a bedroom so she was sort directly beneath me and did her bedroom have a television in it it did
01:35:49 bedroom have a television in it it did yes did your bedroom have a television in it I think it we had it was um it was a what you call it a portable like a
01:36:00 a what you call it a portable like a portable black and white TV but most of the time it was in her room so the te there was there only one television in the house yes and it was that television you just described and most of the time it was in her bedroom yeah rather than
01:36:14 it was in her bedroom yeah rather than yeah I mean her room was sort of it was I guess it must have been like sort of it was like a communal sort of room you know everyone used to congregate in her room um you know probably cuz it was like it was downstairs and stuff but it
01:36:34 like it was downstairs and stuff but it was yeah it was sort of that was kind of the if anyone would be sat talking it would be in her room was there a separate living room um I think so I think so I don't I don't really that yeah then there must there was room like as she went through you go through the front door like her room was
01:36:49 through the front door like her room was there and then I think there was another housemate's room was there and then you went through another room which I think was like also it was a sort of a must have been a living room um yeah and then into the kitchen so yeah there was that
01:37:01 into the kitchen so yeah there was that would that was the other sort of living room but it was I hang out in her room mostly so the the living room such as it was that wasn't your go-to place to for
01:37:12 was that wasn't your go-to place to for example watch television is that is that what I'm no my go-to place with her room was there a sofa in the living room if we call it that yes and was that in frequent use or not yes yeah I think it
01:37:24 frequent use or not yes yeah I think it was the only reason I know that it's in
01:37:30 was the only reason I know that it's in there is because I've got pictures of um at some point at some point there were kittens there and I got pictures of kittens on the C and that's how I remember it was in that room um but yes so I mean yeah I mean we must if there was more people I think we would have been in that sort of room but I can't
01:37:43 been in that sort of room but I can't really I don't really remember that room very much did you tend to mix equally with all of the people who lived in that shared house or were you closer to your friend who I was close sorry I keep
01:37:54 friend who I was close sorry I keep interrupting you not at all were you closer to the friend you'd moved into the house with essentially yes yeah yeah the the other people I mean there was two there was two there was like a
01:38:08 two there was two there was like a someone that had lived there beforehand like a guy in the back who we didn't really ever see um and then there was another like a student that was in the room next to mine upstairs but they weren't like they weren't animal rights people so they were sort of we
01:38:21 people so they were sort of we didn't we didn't really see them but like the other you know other people that lived in the house were you know animal rights people you know we all knew each other from like demos and
01:38:32 knew each other from like demos and things and so how many of you fell under that umbrella of animal rights people obviously you your friend and um one of the other girls that lived at the at the back and then and then sort of when the
01:38:46 back and then and then sort of when the guy moved out so he left and then we had another animal rights person in there then so there would have been I think four um four of us and then after I moved out then like it just went a bit mad there was loads of people lived
01:38:57 mad there was loads of people lived there just focus on the time that you sorry sorry not at all when you describe people congregating in your friend's room and watching television are you
01:39:09 room and watching television are you referring to all the people in the house some of the people in the house can you no so it's probably more me and more me and my friends and I guess sometimes the girlfriend the like the other room in the house and then if anybody came over
01:39:26 the house and then if anybody came over I think that's where we were sort of you know we would be but I used to yeah me and my friend used to spend a lot of time together so it was more in her room and would you commonly spend time in her room if she wasn't there um yeah I guess so was watching
01:39:43 there um yeah I guess so was watching watching the TV so used as a TV room to an extent
01:39:48 an extent yeah I think in um Andrew Kohl's witness statement
01:39:49 statement hn2 he describes um a TV room in the house and your understanding of what
01:40:01 house and your understanding of what he's describing is your friend's room is that right rather than the living room of the house I would think so I don't remember a TV being in the other room you know there may have been I can't say I can't say for certain but she and I used to hang out in like in her room and watch and watch the
01:40:12 her room and watch and watch the T and finally were there any spare bedrooms in that house or were they all occupied no they're all occupied
01:40:28 can I just ask you to look at a report that the inquiries retrieved attributable to hn2 it's MPS 0745
01:40:36 0745 980 and it's dated the 23rd of June of
01:40:43 1992 it's B9 in your bundle sir
01:40:56 and Jessica this is a report about you and I will come back to this to other aspects of this but just now I want to ask you about the first uh sentence of the substant substantive content at the
01:41:12 substant substantive content at the bottom which says um as of the 23rd of June
01:41:13 June 1992 Jessica has recently moved to Jessica's East London address from her parents
01:41:22 parents address she will be sharing the house with
01:41:23 with uh privacy privacy and privacy um who will move from dullage when he returns to the UK from a holiday as at June 1992 how accurate is this report to say
01:41:38 1992 how accurate is this report to say that you had recently moved to the East London
01:41:40 London address
01:41:49 um I think I was under the impression i' moved before that I thought I'd been um I'd been
01:41:55 I'd been there longer than than that I can't I can't say I can't say for absolute certainty but I I was under the impression that i' moved there before that we know I'll come on to it later that in the summer of or Early Autumn of um
01:42:06 um 1992 you received a job offer to go and work in France is that right yeah and so you're able to date when your living at the East London address came to an end
01:42:18 the East London address came to an end with some so it would have been it would have been before this because that yeah I was I lived there for months not just like would that made it one month no it was longer than that so it would have been there before um
01:42:38 been there before um June thank you whilst you lived at this address and before you took up the job in France I think you said in your witness statement that you were unemployed yes and you described pulling your money um I think you you were receiving some benefits and pulling it to feed the cats yes
01:42:54 all
01:43:01 right I'm about to move on to another topic I'm just going to pause and check are you okay to carry on for a little bit without a break yeah y we can have one if if you if no no let's carry on right the topic I'm going to move on to is you meeting hn2 Andre okay does that
01:43:18 is you meeting hn2 Andre okay does that make a difference as not you no no let's carry
01:43:19 carry on I think you say in your witness statement that at the time you knew him as Andy van is that right yes is that the name that he was commonly known by amongst your friends and
01:43:36 acquaintances you met him I think your best recollection is in 1992 is that right we saw that photograph earlier was
01:43:47 right we saw that photograph earlier was from January 1992 of the two of you on a huntsv does that yeah it it might well have been before that you know again it's just it's very very difficult to say but look at that it looks I think it was probably before that so met him
01:44:01 was probably before that so met him before that picture was taken yeah I would I would have said like 1991 but towards the end of that year I or could yeah I you would thought I don't think I knew him sort of that
01:44:18 I don't think I knew him sort of that long it's it's very difficult to say I'm not trying to be difficult it's really difficult to to put a time you know a time sort of on it but I would say judging by like the fact that we're together in that picture I would have thought yes I'd have known him s of that would have taken me well into 1991 when we knew each other and in 1991 were you
01:44:35 we knew each other and in 1991 were you still living at your parents address yes so when you met him if I ask you relative to other events when you met him it was before you moved to the East London address yeah I think it
01:44:48 was now at around the time this time um we're not going to give away your precise date of birth because of your anonymity but you were born I think in 1972 is that right yes and at this time late 1991 early 1992 you were 19 years
01:45:00 late 1991 early 1992 you were 19 years old is that is that right you describe
01:45:12 old is that is that right you describe yourself in your witness statement as a young 19-year-old yeah can you explain what you mean by that um I was very naive I think and quite stupid to be perfectly honest you know I didn't I don't I mean now I sort of I just
01:45:23 just I kind of cringe um to think of myself back then but yeah I was was very very naive I'm certainly wasn't sort of like
01:45:34 naive I'm certainly wasn't sort of like worldly wise and you know not certainly when it comes to like boyfriends or anything like that but um yeah I think I was
01:45:40 was quite young and naive you have since you gave your
01:45:53 naive you have since you gave your witness statement found some photographs of yourself yes and I'm going to ask um that we look at them now when I say we they are redacted for everybody else to protect your anonymity but you should have available to you if not they'll be
01:46:06 have available to you if not they'll be handed to you and the chairman has um a number of uh photographs this is not every single photograph you've provided but a selection of them do you follow and I'm going I'll use their reference numbers so that it can be traced but only you
01:46:21 so that it can be traced but only you and the chairman um at the moment have the photographs in front of of you unredacted okay just to reassure you so first of all you should have a photograph with the number the reference ucpi
01:46:32 ucpi 037 352 yes is that a photograph of you in a vehicle yes it is did you describe the what the photograph shows yes it was um
01:46:43 um after or what it shows or what it um yeah that's me that's me in the
01:46:55 it um yeah that's me that's me in the back of um my van um with picking up a bike from um the south of France so it's taken whilst you were living in France um no it was taken um after
01:47:05 after I after I lost my job in France and I was back here but all my stuff was over there and um and so I had to go and pick it up so um myself and um one of the
01:47:21 it up so um myself and um one of the other people that's ciphered we went over and
01:47:23 over and it was it was cheaper to actually drive down to collect all my stuff so we went down there in December um
01:47:34 down there in December um 93 and collected all of my things so in fact you're a little bit older in this Photograph yes this is more like 20 or 21 um however old I would have been in 93 so would have turned 21 yeah that's right
01:47:53 21 yeah that's right yes all right thank you can we turn over you should have ucpi 037 7 35
01:47:58 35 3 no our bundle does not have that photograph in
01:48:07 it oh no all the best laid plans it will be at the back if it's the same as our bundle but it's a photograph on a beach don't hold it up because of the cameras okay so it should be a photograph on a beach yes right that's that's you is it on the be is yes and can you tell us
01:48:22 on the be is yes and can you tell us when that was taken um it was the same trick
01:48:23 trick um so in like the the December and the reason I no it's December is because as we we drove and we didn't we drove on like the not on the pages so we went
01:48:34 like the not on the pages so we went sort of cross country and I remember that because there was like we drive through all these little places had a loads of Christmas decorations and trees and that that's how I know it's that's the only way that I know it's December
01:48:45 the only way that I know it's December um and also I um asked them to take that picture of like look here I am on the beach in December um to annoy everyone back
01:48:54 back home but again that's you aged more like 2021 than 19 thank you next photograph that I wanted to draw your attention to is ucpi
01:49:03 is ucpi 037
01:49:08 037 354 so it should be a photograph I think of you crouching with um if you go back to the beginning it may well just be the second photograph no it isn't perhaps if what I'll do is rather
01:49:20 isn't perhaps if what I'll do is rather than take my the bundle is in a slightly different order so it's the second the penultimate photograph yes and do we see you there crouching um there's a dog on the other
01:49:33 crouching um there's a dog on the other side of a yes yeah okay can you describe when and in what circumstance this was taken it was the same trip and so this was sort of this was me going around and because I'd been there for like for a year and looked after all these dogs
01:49:45 year and looked after all these dogs this is me going and saying goodbye to all the dogs um that I used to look after right and so I think we've got a series um of of these if we just use your bundle if you go back to the beginning of the bundle to make it
01:49:56 beginning of the bundle to make it easier for you and the chairman to follow we've looked at the first one in the bundle which is the photograph ending 352 if we turn to the second in
01:50:08 ending 352 if we turn to the second in the bundle we should have a photograph ucpi 037
01:50:14 ucpi 037 360 is that you again on the same trip in France yes with a dog
01:50:26 yes and over the page please you should have a photograph ucpi 037
01:50:33 037 359 yes and is that the same trip it is yeah cuz that's my bike in um like in the hallway before obviously loading it up so that's you going back to collect your bike as you mentioned before yes
01:50:47 your bike as you mentioned before yes yeah me all of my stuff was over there so um because I'd left I left sort of quite quickly um because I I'd been injured over there so went into hospital and came out and just came straight home so all of my
01:50:59 just came straight home so all of my stuff was over there so I'd gone back to to collect everything and I had a bike when I was over there so yeah we bought that back as well and that's you cuddling one of the dogs that you had looked after is that yes the position yes Buster
01:51:10 yes Buster Brown was that the dog's name yes I mean I know if you want all I can tell you all the dogs names if you want but
01:51:19 but um if we just turn over in the bundle the next one should be a photograph I think of you it's 0 uh
01:51:32 think of you it's 0 uh 37358 with a much larger black and white dog this time yeah do you want to know who he
01:51:34 who he is oron okay that's oron and you again this is you we see your your face here aged 2021
01:51:52 yes and then um over the page ucpi in fact you've got ucpi 037 357 that's you with Buster Brown again in the
01:52:04 in the hallway and over the page you've got um ucpi 037
01:52:10 ucpi 037 356 that's you with another dog now yeah yeah part of the same trip yes um and then uh you should have a photograph ucpi 0 37355 could you describe what this one
01:52:25 37355 could you describe what this one shows is a little bit different yeah it was um we stopped off somewhere and it was I'm a terrible picture but yeah it was the S of the mountains um in the
01:52:39 was the S of the mountains um in the background and it yeah it it was a nice scene but yeah that's what we took the photo so part of the same trip 1993 absolutely and we see you on the left in a pair of jeans and a black and white jacket yes perhaps looking a little bit
01:52:53 jacket yes perhaps looking a little bit chilly on this one but standing here um in with a field and some mountains in the background yes yeah I actually um yeah the reason I look quite pain is I had a light I used to smoke in those days I had a lighter in my pocket and
01:53:04 days I had a lighter in my pocket and I'd accidentally like flick the lighter and burnt my finger that's why that's pained expression is on my face that's not the temperature outside but the temperature inck no no it was B burnt my finger thank you how
01:53:18 finger thank you how representative are those photographs to the extent you can help with how you looked when you were 19 do you think you changed between turning 19 and turning 21 physically um no I still think I
01:53:30 21 physically um no I still think I still don't I think I'd look quite I'm surprised like how young I look so yeah no I don't I don't think I've I don't
01:53:42 no I don't I don't think I've I don't think I I changed it was a year it was a year um sort of so no I I hadn't changed it at all I think I still think I look very
01:53:56 think I still think I look very young so if the inquiry wants to get an idea
01:54:05 idea of what you look like when Andrew Cole's hn2 met you those are a representative example yes
01:54:12 yes you say in your witness statement that when you met him um or when you knew him hn2 told you that he was 24 years of age is that right yes and you say that you had no
01:54:25 right yes and you say that you had no reason to disbelieve him when he told you that no no can I ask you how confident are you in your recollection that he told you he was 24 very particular because it's as I suppose as
01:54:45 particular because it's as I suppose as you there's there's kind of like a sort of a a not exactly a saying but it's like the women kind of mature like quicker than sort of like bloats don't mature quite as quick as of as women so it's sort of so like the age kind of
01:54:58 it's sort of so like the age kind of thing it's like well he's you know that probably puts him a similar age to me because you know sort of a bit slow um but so it wasn't
01:55:11 but so it wasn't it it wasn't it wasn't too much kind of older if you say what I mean you know anything anything like older than that but like 5 years sort of older but I mean also he I didn't apart from the fact I didn't think that he would
01:55:23 fact I didn't think that he would he wouldn't be telling the truth I I don't know why anyone would not tell the truth about something like that so um I
01:55:34 truth about something like that so um I I never gave it any any thought I mean I know that other people did and thought that he was he was older but it never it had never crossed my mind that he wouldn't
01:55:45 wouldn't be the inquiry has documentation I won't bring it up but I just give the reference for those who want to note it MPS
01:55:49 MPS 0726 987
01:55:57 0726 987 has documentation that records his cover date of birth so the date of birth he was supposedly using when he was deployed as the 14th of September 1964 so in 1992 that would have had him turning
01:56:11 turning 28 are you sure he didn't tell you he was 27 or 28 no
01:56:22 24 you um I think know um from what you've learned since that in his real life his date of birth was in 1960 so he was more like 3132 when you met
01:56:43 us had you known he was really 31 or 32 do you think you would have reacted to him
01:56:44 him differently yeah because it it's
01:56:57 um that it's not right it isn't it's not right it's too there's no reason for someone that age to be trying to go out with someone that's that much younger it's it's not it's a creepy it's inappropriate it's really
01:57:11 creepy it's inappropriate it's really inappropriate and at that age it would have been you know I know I my age it would have been sort of you know he he was
01:57:20 was like as terrible to say but you know like old age you know that at 19 someone
01:57:37 like old age you know that at 19 someone that's that's that is is like old really old so no it's it's kind of gross um so yeah know it would have been I mean I don't know that I've did anything different in the circumstances of how it it happened
01:57:50 it happened um because of how because of how it it happened but no like that's just it's not that would have it would just have been wrong it's not it's not a comfortable thing you know me think someone that age sort of being
01:58:02 think someone that age sort of being interested and someone of 19 it's not there's something wrong with it and is that how you would have felt at the time yes yeah it's kind of it's It's bordering on sort of school teacher student sort of thing it's just it's not
01:58:22 right I'm about to move to just move on slightly topicwise I wonder given the time whether it's an appropriate time for a break yes um would you mind if we broke now for 15 minutes to enable the
01:58:37 broke now for 15 minutes to enable the writers to have a rest and you indeed um yeah thank you doing all right so far yes yes thank you all
01:58:51 right
02:16:19 e e
02:17:22 hey you right to carry on I know that you were just potentially going to ask your support I was going to get Polo but
02:17:33 your support I was going to get Polo but it's fine sorry to expose expose you all right um before the break I was asking you um some questions about h& 2's age I want to look now at some reports um
02:17:53 want to look now at some reports um attributed to him um that report on your age or your date of birth okay we have on on screen please MPS 074
02:18:00 294 it's B2
02:18:11 sir um thank you and Jessica you'll see this is a report dated the 25th of March of
02:18:17 of 1992 and it's the earliest report in time that the inquiry has retrieved naming you specifically and um attributed to
02:18:29 HM2 um we see there your name was given Jessica your vehicle the mini 1000 down there in the middle and born um it says approximately 20 to 25 years so it's giving your age as approximately 20 to
02:18:49 giving your age as approximately 20 to 25 years we know that you were 19 at the date of this report is that right yes had you had any conversation
02:18:59 had you had any conversation with um h& 2 which would have given him the impression that you were older than your real age no no I would never have said that I was older than that so
02:19:11 no are you able to help us on the basis of your answers earlier today it appears you you probably met him in late 1991 and we've seen a photograph of the two of you on a hunt Saab in January 1992
02:19:21 1992 yes so by March 1992 you knew each other certainly yeah are you able to assist with what if anything you had told him about your rage by this stage he would have he
02:19:34 rage by this stage he would have he would have known I don't specifically remember telling him but he would have known you know it was never it was never a secret you know that's sort of yeah he would have known if we take that report down
02:19:55 known if we take that report down please I'm going to jump ahead in the chronology to September of 1992 MPS 0739
02:19:58 0739 788 B15
02:20:10 sir and the content of the report please this is a report uh whil you were in France Jessica and this gives your uh date of birth as circus or around
02:20:27 date of birth as circus or around 1975 that would have made you um about 16 or
02:20:29 16 or 17 that's too young isn't it yes yeah did you ever give um hn2 the impression
02:20:44 did you ever give um hn2 the impression that you were born in or around 1975 and was younger no you know I've never ever lied about my age at any age and if we take that down please and then look at a report that comes between
02:20:57 then look at a report that comes between the two that we've just looked at so MPS 0745
02:21:00 0745 980 B9
02:21:11 sir so this is a report dated the 23rd of June of 1992 so about halfway between the other two that we've looked at another report the inquiry attributes to uh
02:21:20 uh HM2 and this one gives you all data of birth as 1972 so this one is accurate
02:21:27 yes could we look whilst we're on this report at the content of it um as well we've looked at this briefly before it
02:21:41 we've looked at this briefly before it reports you having recently moved to the East London address but I want to look at what's on the next page please the top of the next
02:21:48 page and it says this about you Jessica is an active hunt sabur that is accurate yes Y and then it goes on who has committed acts of criminal damage to Sur Union hunt members
02:21:59 damage to Sur Union hunt members property in the past having been
02:22:10 property in the past having been influenced by season campaigners privacy and Joe TCH had you committed acts of criminal damage to Sur Union hunt members property no not even in the course of the sort of disorder or violence that you've you've said hunt sabs experienced no not at
02:22:23 said hunt sabs experienced no not at all had you been present when acts of criminal damage to hump members property had been carried out not that I remember no I don't I don't it just it's all of that doesn't
02:22:35 don't it just it's all of that doesn't sound it's not right I don't think it's right at all can I ask you at this stage about the person named there Joe T tax it should be tax another witness has
02:22:51 it should be tax another witness has suggested that we see that was Joe tax somebody who you knew yes and in what context did you know Joe tax um him and privacy were really good friends of mine
02:23:04 privacy were really good friends of mine so good friends yes and was that through hunt sabbin or something else yes through hunt Saab
02:23:19 yes did you know Joe tax to also go by the name Thomas Frampton ever yes that was his actual name so Joe tax is a nickname yes yeah his name was Tom
02:23:29 Frampton and how long had you known him by June
02:23:31 by June 1992 roughly um maybe a couple couple of
02:23:43 1992 roughly um maybe a couple couple of years did you remain in contact with him thereafter so through into 9495 yes and Beyond um I think the last time I saw him would have been 97 seven did you ever come into contact
02:23:58 seven did you ever come into contact with um the undercover officer as we now know her to be going by the name of Christine green hn 26 not at this stage no does it follow that at some later
02:24:09 no does it follow that at some later stage you did yes can you tell us when you came into contact with her um 2017 so very much more recently yes after I found
02:24:21 after I found out and what did you find out not after I found out about um PN
02:24:29 2 and when you say you came into contact with her do you mean direct face Toof face contact yes can you describe the circumstances in which you came into
02:24:43 circumstances in which you came into contact with her um yes her and Joe were living in Scotland um at the time and
02:24:45 and I I think I just I mean I wasn't I didn't I didn't think particularly well when I found out all about um
02:24:57 when I found out all about um hn2 and Joe was a really like close friend of mine and I I just thought like he can tell you know he might be able to tell me something because I you know it's the not knowing and how much of you know
02:25:09 not knowing and how much of you know everything then we're going to go on to that later about sort of finding out but um I just wanted to know whether he could tell me anything who you know who
02:25:24 could tell me anything who you know who else or anything like that so I traveled all the way up um to see if I could see him and I'm going to just lead you through this just to be Christin green has real name anonymity so I'm just going to careful I'm going to ask you some specific questions you traveled to
02:25:39 some specific questions you traveled to see Joe tax Who You'd been friends with by them for decades yes and when you traveled to see Joe tax were you expecting to see the officer known as Christine green as well but I knew she would I knew they were still together
02:25:52 would I knew they were still together and you say still together yes what if anything do you know about when they first got together um I know that um what I knew at the time was that um Joe and privacy had split up and
02:26:09 and privacy had split up and um and then the next thing I heard was that he'd got some he'd was in a new relationship and then I heard that she'd gone to Spain and he'd gone to find her
02:26:21 her and are you able to assist with when you heard he was in this new relationship that would have been probably like 90 I don't know 97 98 I guess maybe even
02:26:39 like yeah I'm going to last saw him in in I think it was 97 I'm trying to work out how old um my child was um but yeah it wasn't sort of long after that I never saw him again after that and that's the last that I ever remember hearing about him was that he he'd gone
02:26:52 hearing about him was that he he'd gone off to she'd gone to Spain and he'd gone off to find her and I just want to ask it in this way how confident can you be that that was before
02:27:03 that that was before 1999 even if you're not quite sure of the of the
02:27:11 date um or before the turn of the century let me put it that way oh yeah I'm pretty sure it was before then yes and how had you heard that he was in a relationship with Christine green was it Direct ly from him no no it would
02:27:25 it Direct ly from him no no it would have been um from like other hunt Saabs that I knew possibly even privacy and to the best you're able to assist say if you're not did you form an impression as to how widely the
02:27:36 impression as to how widely the relationship was known about amongst hunt Saabs for example if I would have known I think anyone would have known because at that point we you know I hadn't I wasn't in like direct contact with him so it was um
02:27:50 with him so it was um yeah it was I think it was well known and that was the last that you know he'd gone to
02:27:57 gone to Spain and that was that was the last that I heard when you heard um that did you have any idea that the person Joe tax was in a relationship
02:28:09 person Joe tax was in a relationship with was in fact an undercover officer or was it just a woman that he was in a relationship no it was it was just a woman that he was in a relationship with
02:28:20 woman that he was in a relationship with um an a animal rights person person that was all that I knew at the time did you ever see him with that woman
02:28:47 no and when you went to see him in or around 2017 when you found out about H and two that relationship was ongoing yes
02:28:53 all right thank you um coming back to the report on the screen sorry I should just before before I um move
02:29:04 I um move on I think what you said is that you learned about that relationship possibly from the person whose name is under the Privacy redaction here is that a Poss defin
02:29:17 redaction here is that a Poss defin memory or a possibility it's it's either I remember speaking to her about it but I don't know whether I had told her or she had told me but it was um it would have been sort of probably widely known
02:29:30 have been sort of probably widely known in Sab circles I think because she was I think she was a Sab as well she being green
02:29:35 green yes but certainly the person under this privacy redaction is somebody who appeared also to know about the relationship in the 1990s is that you're yeah if I'm understanding your evidence correctly right thank you um going back to the report then um it carries on
02:29:49 to the report then um it carries on after it says Joe Tex it says this about you recently she has taken part in aliu investigations we understand that to be a reference to the animal Liberation investigation or inspection
02:30:02 Liberation investigation or inspection unit yeah Investigation Unit um and has expressed an interest in animal Liberation Front style Liberation
02:30:18 raids had you taken part in any aliu investigations as at June 1992 no that was never anything that I was um involved with um yeah I don't know there's several references to references to it and it was never anything I was involved in so
02:30:35 was never anything I was involved in so I don't I don't know what he means or I don't know why he said that so not by June 1992 and if I understand you correctly not whatever no and so that it's clear what what or whether you and
02:30:50 it's clear what what or whether you and I are um speaking about the same sort of activity was aliu activity generally going to premises inspecting them perhaps taking documents and returning them afterwards that sort of thing yeah yeah the only thing that I know about that um and it's I'm taking sorry I'm
02:31:01 that um and it's I'm taking sorry I'm going out of sequence again but um it was there was like an aliu investigation at somewhere um a Ministry
02:31:13 at somewhere um a Ministry of math Place Ministry of Agriculture and food yeah however that stands for um and I think documents were taken it was to do with the bad it was to do with
02:31:28 to do with the bad it was to do with Badger Cole and um and some people were arrested at it and um and gave our address and so our address was raided they didn't actually live there but they gave our address and it was raided sorry to Paul was that your East London
02:31:40 to Paul was that your East London address or your South South it was the South London address yeah so as at June 1992 that couldn't have been the incident that no no it was story I said no I went jump forward I'm just
02:31:51 no I went jump forward I'm just clarifying so later later that might have been or be indirect a connection between you because of your address and an aliu action aliu action yes yeah but
02:32:10 an aliu action aliu action yes yeah but I think that um hn2 was um was involved with aliu at that point so it wouldn't have been it was known you know I think' known that that was nothing to do with with us certainly as we see this is June 199 to not accurate is your no not at
02:32:28 all um I'm coming back we've mentioned it a few times and I'm come back in detail to it but the great hooky uh farm raid is something that you were involved in yes with
02:32:39 in yes with hn2 um that's uh June 1992 so around the
02:32:50 hn2 um that's uh June 1992 so around the time of this report more or less when it says here that you had expressed an an interest in Al front style Liberation raids is it possible that by this time you had expressed an interest in taking part in the great hooky farm raid I I don't think I mean obviously I I was on
02:33:02 don't think I mean obviously I I was on it um I did it but I don't think I ever s sat down and said you know do you know what I think I'd like to do one of those it's you know it wasn't it wasn't like that at all um you know it was planned
02:33:18 that at all um you know it was planned and either and I think I was I was asked so it wasn't as though you know sat there and said I wanted I thought I should do some of that um but having been asked you were willing yes yes were you ever involved in any other action
02:33:36 you ever involved in any other action that could be described as an Al front style Liberation raid was great hooky Farm the only one
02:33:43 yes I'll just finish off this paragraph it continues now that she has moved to London and is living with other animal rights activists she is likely to commit
02:33:54 rights activists she is likely to commit criminal acts against wider animal abuse targets with them what do you say to that
02:34:05 them what do you say to that um I don't I don't know why he would say that
02:34:12 that um yeah I don't know it's just it's all it makes it look far more interesting than the actual truth of the situation was there any um reality in the
02:34:20 the suggestion that moving to the East London address where other animal rights activists were
02:34:36 living you were involving yourself more in animal rights activism of any kind or or was your moving to that address unrelated no I mean it was it was it was unrelated and sort of with the people that were in like the house where we moved to they I was I was the only one
02:34:59 moved to they I was I was the only one that took part in or there was two of us that took part in the um in the raid so it wasn't you know from what that sort of sounds like it's you know i' moved there and everyone was you know was doing stuff but it wasn't so I don't
02:35:09 doing stuff but it wasn't so I don't think the other people were involved in anything at all you know it's it's not we happened to move to London and you know my involvement in the um great hooky Farm was was through him so that was you know that was
02:35:21 was you know that was the I mean whether he whether he's I'm likely to commit more criminal acts because I was with him I don't I don't know but I think I wasn't long before I
02:35:34 know but I think I wasn't long before I went to France so I mean at this point I don't I don't even know whether I was sort of I guess I would got the job about now so it's just no it's it's just speculation you know there's not any
02:35:50 speculation you know there's not any there isn't any truth to that about the more likely to commit criminal Acts right thank you we can take that down and oh sorry can I just just say as well if that's that's not right what he said about the telephone thing um either let's put it back up on the screen that's not
02:36:18 right I'll read it into the record the final paragraph reads there is no telephone in the two-story terorist house but Jessica has obtained a radio telephone for her own use from her father yeah no that wasn't true when I was um
02:36:32 was um saing so I would have been actually at home the local Sab group had um like rented a it was one of the first like mobile phone things so if we knew where the hump was and people ring but it was like that sort of size it was huge well
02:36:45 like that sort of size it was huge well I think you're just for the purposes of the record you're indicating a a box maybe one foot by one big yeah it's kind of like a big shoe box but yeah so it was like this huge thing that only could sit sort of in like the middle of the
02:36:57 sit sort of in like the middle of the car and it was for sabbin and that was the only thing so and it was had nothing to do with my dad either so yeah I don't
02:37:08 to do with my dad either so yeah I don't it's just it's just an inaccuracy I just wanted to point out that that's I don't know where this radio telephone was maybe that's what it meant by mobile telephone but it had nothing to do with
02:37:22 telephone but it had nothing to do with my dad sure did you ever use that during this period when you knew hn2 I might I may have done because I say it was a sabbin it was primarily a sabbin um thing so you know if I knew where if
02:37:32 thing so you know if I knew where if other groups were coming and like I knew where the hunt was or something when I was driving then I'd be able to give them you know map preferences as to where they were so it's possible he knew you had a device of that nature yes yeah yeah but it's yeah I mean this I don't
02:37:44 yeah but it's yeah I mean this I don't know where he got the other like and it was never I don't think it was ever it was never in the house it was never in the house in um the first the East London address it was never
02:37:56 London address it was never there all right thank you I think we can take that down
02:38:03 now I want to ask you um about your memories of how you first met
02:38:13 hn2 um it it seems to follow from the evidence you've given this morning that in fact you must have met him before you moved out of your parents address can you remember anything about the
02:38:24 can you remember anything about the circumstances in which you first met him no not not really it's you know I went to lots of meetings lots of pickets lots of demos they all kind of bleed a bit into one and there's
02:38:39 into one and there's no there was no one specific thing that happened that I would say oh you know that I could place it in it's just I
02:38:51 that I could place it in it's just I would see him you know I guess would see him around would nod to him you know so I I don't know I don't know whether it would have been Savage or picket or something like that you know my recollection was that I knew him from London books Action Group but given the date of that sort of photo and that I may well have known him from saing you
02:39:08 may well have known him from saing you know as well I just don't know sorry not at all when when you first knew him was he just a face in the crowd or did you get to know him any better than that no he was just he was just a face in the crowd you describe in your witness
02:39:23 crowd you describe in your witness statement a time when you were living at the East London address and he used to um come around to the address yes and you suggest that that's the first time you really started to notice
02:39:35 first time you really started to notice him is that right yes could you describe from your point of view the circumstances in which he started to come around to the address yeah it would you know I mean our house it was
02:39:47 would you know I mean our house it was sort of you know people coming and going and
02:39:50 and you know it was quite we were always like sociable and friendly and he started coming around but it was always later it was sort of later on in the evening which
02:40:05 evening which was you know it was it was a bit sort of inconvenient and because he it was long he stayed for quite a long time he couldn't you know you're not rude and you don't sort of go well you know it's can you go so it would be it would just it would be quite awkward and I know
02:40:19 it would be quite awkward and I know that I had this conversation with um at least a couple of the others and saying you know because we were sort of like you know he's here again and them
02:40:33 like you know he's here again and them sort of saying you know well well you're the one that invited him and I didn't invite him I thought you did like no we're today no and then we sort of realized that nobody had he just sort of invited
02:40:38 invited himself um he says in his witness statement that he was coming um around after London boots action group meetings
02:40:50 after London boots action group meetings giving people a lift back does that ring a bell with you I think he probably he would would have done as well but he would also come around just he would just come around you know without sort of I mean I don't I don't think we had a phone um but he would just turn up
02:41:02 phone um but he would just turn up because sometimes you know it was I mean it feels quite mean but we would be sort of like you know he's you know he's here again
02:41:12 again um but yeah he would just show up and was that unusual was he unusual or did or were there other people amongst your circle perhaps of animal
02:41:23 amongst your circle perhaps of animal rights activists who who might just turn up um I think it was it was unusual because of the time that he will come because it was quite it was you know it was a bit late in the evening so there's always sort of like a you know there's a sociable time and then there's like a
02:41:35 sociable time and then there's like a cut off and he would come after the cut off um and did he um usually come alone on these occasions yes and what would you do when he would
02:41:52 yes and what would you do when he would turn up unannounced or come back after a meeting what what was happening in the house not much really you know it was just sort of it's just like it's like evening in anyone else's house you know we would sit and like watch Telly or sit and you know chat
02:42:05 and you know chat so there wasn't there was nothing sort of particularly interesting happening um and when you say sit and watch television would that be in the living room as we've discussed it or in your
02:42:19 room as we've discussed it or in your friend's room no my friend's room do you remember any times when he visited and it was just the two of you alone before you began a
02:42:32 relationship um no I think there was generally someone there was generally somebody in but like the other two people that weren't animal rights people and that they were quite often just in their rooms and we never really saw the guy that lived in the back room sort of at
02:42:44 at all I think what you say in your witness statement is that you and your friend your friend who had the the TV room yeah ended seem to end up getting stuck with him yes more often than not is that
02:42:57 him yes more often than not is that right yeah um and actually the um I noticed one of the something he said about in um one of the other people in I don't think the r that that lived in the house
02:43:13 that that lived in the house um wasn't it wasn't very nice but it was about sort of like would fall out with other people and stuff so I didn't whether he and her had fallen out or something but he didn't you know he didn't seem to be with her very much it
02:43:26 didn't seem to be with her very much it was always kind of me and my friend that seemed to sort of bear the brunt and also because we were in we're mostly like in her room so that was where we would where we'd always end
02:43:46 would where we'd always end up just thinking about your lifestyle at that time we know you'd moved from your parents house to this address that you were unemployed at the time so was pretty tight did you tend to go out to socialize or stay at home no no we would
02:43:57 socialize or stay at home no no we would stay at home um I don't even remember us I mean I think occasionally we used to go to like the pubs afterwards but s for like a lemonade or something you know I mean we didn't neither of us really drunk um so you know but we didn't go
02:44:14 drunk um so you know but we didn't go out we would go like after a picket and that would be it so if somebody turned up unannounced at the house with some regularity the chances of finding you and your friend home were quite High yes very now in your witness statement you
02:44:27 very now in your witness statement you describe um hn2 coming over for several weeks two or three times a week before anything happened between the two of you is that about right in terms of the time
02:44:38 is that about right in terms of the time scales of of of of how things happened I think so because we because it got to the point where it was sort of you know I don't think we ever didn't let him in but it was that sort of the collective you know the
02:44:50 you know the sort of the Sigh and you know here we go again you know but it was it was as much to to do with the fact that like he stayed late so me we had to stay up late and you know didn't always really want
02:45:15 to now I'm coming on to um the start of um um your evidence about a relationship forming with
02:45:26 forming with him before any of that happened did you have any idea from his behavior of any interest in you as a girlfriend or or anything similar none whatsoever I think to be honest but I wouldn't have noticed I think that was so not on my radar that I wouldn't have
02:45:38 so not on my radar that I wouldn't have noticed anyway it just that was the last thing that I'd ever be thinking that anyone would be
02:45:51 thinking and so I'll come on to your evidence you describe um a time when he kissed you yes as far as you were concerned then did that come completely out of the blue
02:46:03 absolutely you describe in your witness statement that the way you um got together I think is the the phrase was very awkward yes um I think it happened
02:46:15 very awkward yes um I think it happened at the East London address is that right yes and he was there at the address and you describe being in your friend's bedroom watching television yes can I
02:46:27 bedroom watching television yes can I ask you can you remember how it was that he came to be at the address on that occasion the same as always I think just would come around and was it late in the evening as on other occasions
02:46:44 yes was your friend whose room you were in was she in the house that that night I don't think so no was she in the room when this occurred
02:46:59 no can you describe what happened um yeah I was we were sat the way the room was laid out was say if I'm sat like on the where the bed was he was sat here the TV the window was there the door was here and
02:47:16 window was there the door was here and the TV was sort of over there so it was it wasn't it was more to my side so I was looking that way and then I'd either gone to turn to sorry gone to turn to him or he had said something
02:47:29 turn to him or he had said something which made me turn to him and then he just like lunged straight at me and kissed
02:47:45 me what was your feeling when that happened um shock as you say I it was the last thing I was expecting and just I didn't really know I didn't know how to react um
02:47:56 how to react um which yeah it sounds it sounds stupid but I did you know not nothing like this had happened to me before so we didn't really know what to what to do um I
02:48:10 really know what to what to do um I think my overriding feeling was that I don't I wouldn't want to hurt his feelings so rather you know what I wanted to do was just like you know get off but it's kind of you know I was aware that's that would be a horrible
02:48:25 aware that's that would be a horrible thing to do so you know I didn't want to hurt his feelings I think um yeah I didn't really know what to do you know I just remember sort of the kind of feeling of um oh my
02:48:41 kind of feeling of um oh my God just it keep of you know it was like I've kind of just froze but I I didn't know what didn't how to react you know it's it's horrible because you know to
02:49:01 it's it's horrible because you know to go to keep going back over it and know I didn't do what you know I wanted to do and you know this this is the the result
02:49:06 result because because of what I didn't do at the time
02:49:14 um but yeah it was it was so it was so awkward you know I I thought you know had he said at any point had he said you know that he liked me or had he has he said something you know actually actually you know said something that I would have been able to have said you
02:49:26 would have been able to have said you know look you know I don't think about you like that but it was the it was the shock and just the the unexpectedness of it you know I
02:49:41 the the unexpectedness of it you know I I didn't yeah I didn't react how I wish I had have done now and how did you react in fact um I guess I must I guess I just let him kiss me
02:50:01 did you say anything to him or did he say anything to you once once you kissed I don't I don't remember after that [Music]
02:50:04 [Music] um I don't I just I don't remember talking about it because I you know I I
02:50:19 talking about it because I you know I I still feel that had I been able had had that sort of opportunity that I might have been able to kind of to have to have explained things without like hurting his feelings but um I didn't and you know my in my head I'm kind of I skip it just feels like
02:50:35 I'm kind of I skip it just feels like from then on it's like we were we just seem to be like in a relationship you know I don't I don't have anything between you know what happens after that much you know I don't remember as ever
02:50:46 much you know I don't remember as ever like having that conversation because I think even that would have been awkward um
02:50:56 sorry did you want to say no no sorry no don't apologize um before this
02:51:08 um before this occasion when he kissed you had you been alone with him or was this the first time that you were alone with him
02:51:17 um there was there would have normally been my friend would Norm have been there she didn't often go to her home um but no I think there's there was
02:51:33 but no I think there's there was normally I mean the hit she and I were sort of were quite often just we were joined at the hit for quite a while um
02:51:34 um but no I don't I don't remember being alone with him before and I you know I don't I don't have the sort of I don't remember getting like a funny vibe off him if he would been alone before or
02:51:47 him if he would been alone before or anything you know this came absolutely out of nowhere as far as I was concerned you will have seen the witness statement of Andrew CO's um He suggests I paraphrase that
02:52:14 CO's um He suggests I paraphrase that you had um had flirtatious conversations with him and suggested that you were interested in having sex with him did you do those things no at any stage no
02:52:32 I think in your witness statement you say you don't remember if the first time that you did have sex with him was that night the night of the kiss or later does that remain your best recollection yes yeah I don't I think the sort
02:52:51 yes yeah I don't I think the sort of I and basically I have quite a lot of issues you know I don't trust people I don't I'm not like I wouldn't do like one night stand of thing it's not that's not anything that I would do is to you know is to have have slept with him that night it's like that's not me but I
02:53:03 night it's like that's not me but I don't I just I can't I don't have a memory I don't know but the sort of
02:53:19 memory I don't know but the sort of person you know who I am and who I was I don't think that we would have done but I can't say I know I'm fairly sure he stayed over um but I can't I really can't
02:53:19 can't say when you say you're fairly sure he stayed over where did he stay it would be in my room in your single bed with the
02:53:36 mattress if you you can't remember when that happened when you first had sex with him do you remember how it came
02:53:46 about I mean it we would have been in bed and
02:53:54 bed and it would have been him that initiated it and what makes you say that
02:54:03 that because it wouldn't it would not have been me I was so kind of um awkward and it just it wouldn't have been me you know I was not I'm not comfortable you know I never was and I'm not it would not have been me
02:54:28 did you you've described sort of as it were a relationship commencing pretty pretty soon after the kiss am I understanding your in your
02:54:42 kiss am I understanding your in your mind yes yeah what was it that that from your point of view left you thinking we're in a relationship now I think because he used to come over all the time and we'd be then together and then he'd stay
02:54:53 over and were you regularly having sex
02:55:03 yes and when he stayed over would he stay in your bed always or did he ever sleep anywhere else in the house no was my
02:55:15 bed did you ever go and stay at his place during the period when you were living at your East lond address no I don't think I ever went well no I didn't ever go to his place I don't know where he lived at the time um I never went
02:55:43 there how intimate and I don't mean physically how how intimate was the relationship between you and h&t um
02:55:52 not not particularly I don't I honestly I can't remember very much about him um I don't think I mean I think I was a pretty awful girlfriend I don't ever remember being
02:56:05 don't ever remember being particularly inquisitive about him or asked very much
02:56:15 um yeah I don't it was not Love's young dream that's you know that's for sure but I don't it it felt like sort of like we were kind of like old and been married for 40 years you know it was it wasn't it wasn't I wasn't what I
02:56:30 wasn't it wasn't I wasn't what I expected wasn't how I expected to be but I don't think like I mean again obviously we' talked to each other but I don't remember much about you know him saying anything about his family or anything like that um and I don't I
02:56:43 anything like that um and I don't I certainly don't remember him saying that he was adopted and I would have remembered had he told me that I think that's information you've learned later yes through others is that
02:56:59 right you say in your witness statement that you don't recall having conversations with your friends about being in a relationship with hn2 no this was as I understand your
02:57:12 no this was as I understand your evidence in effect your first boyfriend girlfriend relationship can you explain why you didn't speak about with other people I think I was
02:57:24 people I think I was embarrassed what were you embarrassed about I guess him
02:57:38 um yeah I don't I think because like he because he was sort of like fairly unpopular and quite kind of awkward and a bit odd and stuff it's you know it's wasn't really didn't feel like anything that I felt like I needed to like you know
02:58:04 broadcast were you in the habit of talking to your friends about sexual encounters or in moments
02:58:18 no how U much affection did you show him or did he show you when you were with other people um I don't remember us
02:58:30 people um I don't remember us doing I don't remember us being particularly like affectionate and certainly not like kind of other couples were it didn't it didn't feel
02:58:43 couples were it didn't it didn't feel the same um you know I know that other people say that remember us being you know like affectionate that's you know I think because sort of in in my head you know remembering the
02:58:56 in in my head you know remembering the entire relationship and just how it it was it was sort of it was fairly like emotion passionless and stuff and so I think like that's just how I remember it
02:59:07 think like that's just how I remember it so I don't I don't have any recollection of us you know sort of like holding hands or anything like it just didn't it just wasn't it wasn't us
02:59:23 can I ask you this you've described an an unexpected moment in which he led in and kissed you and you've described your internal reaction your feelings as being um that it wasn't something you necessarily really wanted
02:59:43 something you necessarily really wanted yeah and and yet you end up in a sexual intimate relationship of a kind with him can I ask you to just explain a little how you how that developed how
02:59:56 little how you how that developed how you think you ended up in a relationship with someone who with whom your first encounter was as you've described
02:59:58 described yeah it's it just sounds like so pathetic to sort of say but it was it was less awkward to kind of go along with it than it would have been to do anything else it just
03:00:16 seemed yeah it was it was less awkward to to go along with it um you know I wasn't I was so uncomfortable and it would have been uncomfortable to have said you know to
03:00:27 uncomfortable to have said you know to have had that conversation with him and you know and I've always said you know he wasn't horrible he wasn't horrible to me you know as as obviously not as hn2 but you know as like as a pretend
03:00:39 but you know as like as a pretend boyfriend like you he wasn't nasty he wasn't horrible um it just was it seemed the the easiest thing to do because I just I wasn't prepared I
03:00:53 because I just I wasn't prepared I wasn't able to have that conversation to sort of
03:01:02 sort of to to kind of to get myself out of that situation so I just yeah I just I just went along with it looking at that now 30 something years later is that is that a reaction
03:01:17 years later is that is that a reaction that you could see yourself having now or is it a reaction that reflects 19y old
03:01:18 old Jessica I'd like to say I I will be different now but it's I still I still feel that you know even going back and thinking about this whole thing now it's still got that really the awkward you
03:01:32 still got that really the awkward you know I can still I still get that awful awkward feeling um I'd like to say now
03:01:45 awkward feeling um I'd like to say now that I'd have slapped him you know but I don't I don't know I don't know but it was yeah it was it was so awkward um you know and I sort of I look back and yeah I wish that I wish it had have been different I wish it have done something
03:02:05 different once the relationship with him had begun did you understand it to be a monogamous one yes and how did you come to that
03:02:14 to that understanding because because you wouldn't be in a
03:02:25 because you wouldn't be in a relationship if it wasn't you know in my head it's like you you know you're with one person you're with that one person that's that's what relationships are did you ever have that conversation
03:02:41 are did you ever have that conversation with him or was that your own assumption that was my own assumption and I just I would have just assumed it was his as well
03:02:56 was there any uh moment between you and hn2 which could be described as you trying to kiss or have physical contact with him and him trying to divert it
03:03:14 no uh you will have seen hn 2's witness statement in which it's paragraph 209 for those who want a reference in which he says he he did stay over at your East London
03:03:24 London address one time on the sofa first of all and then you offered that he could sleep in a mattress in your room did that ever happened
03:03:44 no and his evidence in his witness statement is that he stayed on a mattress in your room three or four times did he stay more than three or four times in your bed
03:04:04 yes I put to you in a general sense before some of um his evidence that suggests that you were offering to have sex with him I just want to ask you about one specific thing he
03:04:23 about one specific thing he says um He suggests that you once said to him you can me if you like he's a liar he's an absolute
03:04:32 liar I think in your witness statement you say that you would never have used that language is that your evidence yeah no that's I don't I don't speak I don't talk like that and it's you know
03:04:47 don't talk like that and it's you know it's I just don't know I'm far too I'd be
03:04:50 be again it's it's awkward but it's also it's crass and you know as much as I swear and you know I really admit to that but that's you know sexually like that it's just it's crass and like no
03:05:02 that it's just it's crass and like no you know I realized that I write in my statement I've said some or in like a letter to somebody when I was angry I wrote something like that but it's not how I it's not what I would have said at all he's a
03:05:18 liar and I didn't I wasn't obsessed with him and I didn't throw myself at him I didn't chase him and that that is
03:05:33 lies can I ask you a little bit about the involvement you have just change the subjects like the involvement you had with him in relation to animal rights activities before I come back to the continuation of the relationship y um
03:05:46 continuation of the relationship y um and an event that we have mentioned a number of times that's the great um hooky
03:05:48 hooky from uh chicken from um raid and you've mentioned um a number of times that it was
03:05:59 times that it was hn2 who I think in your statement you say organized The Raid can you explain um how he went about organizing it what it what it is that causes you to say he
03:06:15 it what it is that causes you to say he organized it um he was the driver um he it was his vehicle um and also I I believe there was that there was a lot of other people before the the ones of
03:06:28 of other people before the the ones of us that actually went I think there was he'd asked he'd called another meeting with like far too many people um in it which for some reason I I don't I wasn't at that meeting but um it was I know
03:06:42 at that meeting but um it was I know that it was you know other people have said that he called this big meeting and because there was so many people there I think quite a lot of people thought it was a
03:06:53 was a bit silly and dropped out or something but I know that he' sort of organized that but also I was in a relationship with him at the time that's how I came
03:07:05 with him at the time that's how I came to to go um you know another person from from the house that I lived in all right I just going to explore that with you a little bit more if I can so this is around June 1992 so you're
03:07:16 so this is around June 1992 so you're confident that by that time you were in a relationship with him the other person from your house was that your friend from the TV room yes and she was involved in this raid as well
03:07:28 well yes um how did you hear about the meeting that you've mentioned that he said to have organized was that through other people um it was yeah that was from that was from other people that were there and what you heard was that
03:07:41 were there and what you heard was that he had called that meeting is that IOD that correctly yeah but you weren't at it and you weren't called to it no not that not I remember
03:07:54 no not that not I remember no and you said you heard that there were far too many people at it yes relative to what would there be too many people can you explain I think it was there was
03:08:03 there was um there was that many people that it was I don't know whether like they would have been like spotted or
03:08:16 have been like spotted or um or there was just too many people to to make H it like secur security wise or something
03:08:30 like secur security wise or something I'm not sure but a lot of people saw you know just saw loads of other people and were just like you know no there's you know I think it was I think it it was maybe like they people like that carried out things with smaller groups of people that they knew not like a big group of people some of who you don't know so that was the sense that you got
03:08:45 know so that was the sense that you got yes that people thought too many were in the no yes yeah how did you come to be involved
03:08:55 involved um I don't remember exactly but I mean he would have he would have asked us because we So Gone from our house with him and like he
03:09:08 from our house with him and like he bought us you know he dropped other people off um so you know but he was he organized it you know that's that's what I that's what I know cuz I
03:09:19 that's what I that's what I know cuz I traveled the whole way with him you know I came back in the back of the van you know I was in the back of the van with the chickens um you know he was the only person that I you know that was telling me what to do you know where to to go you'd
03:09:32 do you know where to to go you'd obviously heard about that meeting which must have happened prior to the raid for other people yes so does it follow that you knew other people who were involved as well other than just your housemate
03:09:46 as well other than just your housemate and friend yes and how confident are you that you didn't hear about from them and get involved that way because they were like a bit like me just a small like part you know you're you're just if you've got the vehicle
03:10:02 you're just if you've got the vehicle you know or you're the driver then it's you know your sort of you have like the the organization you know it's down it's down to you um like I couldn't have organized something and then like and
03:10:13 organized something and then like and not had like a vehicle it all seemed to be there was like a um there was a plan before I'd even got involved so where
03:10:25 before I'd even got involved so where and what to do and and stuff so I just came in I don't know whether some of these people have dropped out but I came in you know it was already sort of the the arrangements were
03:10:37 sort of the the arrangements were already in place and from where or from whom did you learn about those arrangements from him how confident are you that that you learned them from very confident because I didn't some of the people I did know but the the people
03:10:52 people I did know but the the people that I did know that were on this thing were just you know in the same sort of position as me it was sort of like you know we were kind of told like right you go in you do this you do this um you
03:11:03 go in you do this you do this um you know we were the followers that was say we were directed like we were not directing people and obviously you can say that on behalf of yourself H how do you feel able to say that there were
03:11:15 you feel able to say that there were others in that situation as well what's that based on us being told like you know there's there was other people so like you know my friend it's like right you you know you're doing this so you go you do this
03:11:28 you're doing this so you go you do this you you hand them off to this person and it
03:11:29 it wasn't you know at that point like we didn't you know it I think it was quite security conscious until like the need to know you found out in the last sort of thing but it was like it was him that
03:11:44 of thing but it was like it was him that seemed to be that knew the plans and was telling other people the plans so what you're describing is being being given instructions by someone else about what role to play yes and who was giving you those instructions was anybody else giving you those sorts of
03:11:56 giving you those sorts of instructions no it was it was um no I mean the person like so I was a person going and getting the chickens
03:12:09 person going and getting the chickens and then like to the person behind me is you know would be like right I'll you know I'll be here but we were sorting out amongst ourselves what we were going to do but by the task that we've been G
03:12:20 to do but by the task that we've been G and the person who gave you the the task was hn2
03:12:22 was hn2 yes you describ in your witness statement that there was a second van involved there was another there was another vehicle but I don't know that was
03:12:33 was separate so did you know that that was going to be there in advance I think so yes did you know who was driving it I think so yes in advance yes and did you know who would
03:12:46 advance yes and did you know who would be in the van no in the vehicle I should
03:13:04 say the uh plan as you describe it in your witness statement was to go to the chicken sheds in on the farm put chickens into the bag and pass them along a human chair yes yeah is that the nature of the instruction that you were
03:13:18 nature of the instruction that you were given or or was that something that you decided upon amongst those no that was that was the instruction like they like we were we like we're in sort of like a line going you know across the fields because it was quite a lot across
03:13:29 because it was quite a lot across country um got there and then like we all knew what we were doing when we got
03:13:39 there you um also describe in your witness statement trying this once and having to call it off yes can you tell us what happened on that occasion yes um we
03:13:53 we were like we were going over fields and sort of like we were sticking to like the Hedge um sort of down at the bottom of the field and as we were sort of we going you could see like things moving
03:14:04 going you could see like things moving on the horizon and like initially sort of thought they were cows but then as they sort of were moving coming forward
03:14:16 they sort of were moving coming forward they were sort of like Square shaped and that and then um we just waited there and it was um the Army the Army on maneuvers so they were there with the big backpacks and I mean we just like laid down in addiction they went past and that but it was yeah it was called
03:14:28 and that but it was yeah it was called off at that point and it was night time was it it was dark was hn2 present on that aborted attempt and have you any um recollection
03:14:41 attempt and have you any um recollection now of how far in advance the successful raid if I put put it that way was how far in advance this was before I I went guess it would have been a couple of weeks maybe but that's a
03:14:56 guess and when you when the raid took place you traveled according to your witness statement in hn 2's band to the location um with a number of other people is that right and you described that people had face coverings of
03:15:07 that people had face coverings of various types so it it was clear to you that this was an action that the the aim
03:15:18 that this was an action that the the aim of which or one of the aims of which was not to be discovered not to be caught yes yeah had you participated in anything like that before no how how did you feel participating in it on that occasion I was scared to death scared of of what it's it's really it's not
03:15:35 of what it's it's really it's not as it's scary everything cality is scary like the getting caught just the doing
03:15:47 like the getting caught just the doing the doing everything it was you know I'm quite an anxious person and yeah I was really anxious um about everything did hn2 seem anxious or concerned
03:15:59 no despite being anxious or concerned you were a willing participant weren't you you say that in your W statement and in the event when the raid was
03:16:12 in the event when the raid was successful you went inside and you were I think you descri grab grabbing chickens yes um we've got a photo graph I want to show you it's um we've got different versions of it but this one is as it
03:16:23 versions of it but this one is as it appeared in a publication called the southeast Liberator which appears to have been submitted by hn2 in November of 1992 to the SDS it's MPS
03:16:40 of 1992 to the SDS it's MPS 0742 260 I might have an error in my reference
03:16:50 there yes 74226 yes there should be a page 14 if I've got the right reference B7 sir it's in your
03:17:09 bundle and it's um Andrew kohls's evidence that he took this Photograph during that raid and that you are the person on the right no I'm the person on on the
03:17:26 left but this is that incident at yes yeah it is yeah and I know I know that the person on the left because I'd be the only person stupid enough to wear their favorite jeans that color in the like and also um those I had two pairs of those like basketball boots one pair
03:17:41 of those like basketball boots one pair was purple and one pair was red and they were off K's catalog and I would be the only person that's stupid to have worn those so that I know that is me and also that um I we couldn't we couldn't afford
03:17:56 that um I we couldn't we couldn't afford um like balaclavas they were like5 pound I think at the time so um my friend got a pair of socks and cut them stitched them together and cut the eye holes in so I was wearing a pair of socks on my head as well so I know that that is
03:18:12 me and that is you I think with potentially with a chicken in your arms yeah and so you were quite literally grabbing the chickens with your arms to get them to get them out of do you remember h&t taking
03:18:25 of do you remember h&t taking photographs no were you aware in advance that he would do that I don't think so no did you become aware afterwards that he had done so yes through seeing this
03:18:39 he had done so yes through seeing this yes did you see it in a publication like this did you see a yes not not simply a standalone photograph no no no I've never seen the photograph no I saw it in um yeah what did you say Southeast is the southeast Liberator I think
03:18:56 yes what do you remember R to doing other than driving you there and back what do you remember him doing during this raid um I think he was in like the chain um I can't be certain but it was there was two of us going in grabbing
03:19:08 there was two of us going in grabbing the chickens turning around putting them into like we also had think like poultry crates um as well but putting them into the crates or the bag bags and then
03:19:19 the crates or the bag bags and then going and grabbing more chickens and then they were being passed back um until we'd got enough so that everyone had like enough you know had like two sacks or whatever to carry until like
03:19:31 sacks or whatever to carry until like you know we couldn't carry anymore and then we went back to the van he describes in his witness statement having um entered taken photos and otherwise essentially simply played the role of the
03:19:42 the role of the driver yeah no everyone it wasn't you don't need a drive you don't need the driver to do nothing when you're there you know everyone mucked in because the
03:19:53 you know everyone mucked in because the more people that help the more chickens you could
03:20:10 save did you ever hear from him that he had been recruited to this action by somebody else no or that he was asked to act as a driver by somebody else
03:20:22 no what during the raid itself did you become aware of any other person giving instructions or directing what was going on no was he doing that during the raid I think we all knew what our sort of roles
03:20:45 were you say in your witness statement that the raid wouldn't have happened without him yeah is it possible that you would have gone on a raid of this nature without him even if not this particular raid um I
03:20:57 even if not this particular raid um I don't know how else I would how I'd have known about it you know I don't I don't know of anyone that like had ever asked to do do anything like this so so no
03:21:12 to do do anything like this so so no probably not because it's only through him that i' that I've been asked you know I've never been asked to do anything like that before or after C can I just ask just go back to the photograph momentarily it's um hn2
03:21:27 photograph momentarily it's um hn2 suggestion is that the person in this Photograph that isn't you so he says you're on the right is your uh roommate your friend and roommate from the East London address who had the TV room is that is that correct no so that person is not shown
03:21:39 correct no so that person is not shown in this Photograph no I don't think I'm not sure who the person is on the right but I don't ever remember her having um a camouflage jacket so we don't think it
03:22:00 is and I really think that every I think I'm the only person that will be wearing those jeans to be honest I think everyone else was I've got the
03:22:10 memo all right once you've taken the chickens this is a sort of chicken shed is it on the farm yes yeah I think it's a br I think they call it a broiler shed so sort of battery chicken Clos to it was it was pretty horrific yes and you
03:22:22 was it was pretty horrific yes and you say you think you got about 80 chickens I think that was what was in um like the publication or whatever I think so that was what it was reported as I seem to
03:22:36 was what it was reported as I seem to remember and the chickens that you took from there you say um were taken away and put into a van you mean h& 2's van yes yeah and presumably also the second van or did they all go into his van no
03:22:56 van or did they all go into his van no it was all it was just in his in his van and was that the plan in advance or yes yeah yeah it's the we had like the the chickens and the people that took the chickens and I think then like the other van was staying and did was like doing I don't know doing something I think they were like like spray painting or
03:23:10 were like like spray painting or something I don't know because like this was my sort of job so I didn't see like I don't think I saw anybody from the van it's really difficult to know actually cuz everyone was wearing B clavas so we don't know who like we didn't know who
03:23:24 don't know who like we didn't know who any you know who any of us was we almost like had to sort of speak and just you know to find out who we were um but but you had understood in advance that you
03:23:37 you had understood in advance that you would leave these premises in h& 2's van is that your evidence yeah and then take the chickens on to where they went and so as far as you were concerned he was expecting to take the chickens away yeah yeah
03:23:47 yeah you describe in your witness statement that as you were driving as the van was driving away you in it and the chickens in it it was stopped yes can you describe what happened um well I think
03:24:01 describe what happened um well I think we'd gone past um it was all like it was you know it was night it was country lanes we went past um a police car sort of like pulled up or parked in they were
03:24:17 of like pulled up or parked in they were kind of they were parked um and then was we'd gone past and I think sort of you know waiting to see what happened and then I think he must have said like they'd come as I don't think we could see out of the back in the van I think it was like all a like panel thing I don't think we could see out at all um
03:24:28 don't think we could see out at all um but then you know obviously heard like they're following us and then they pulled us over can I just when you say you heard they're following us do you
03:24:39 you heard they're following us do you mean there was chatter no being followed no I think he I think he must have said because I think it was only him in the front seat so he would have said you know like like they're following us you know we're being pulled over but also you just in the blue lights as they pulled us over and at this point you're in the back of the van yeah is there any other humans
03:24:52 the van yeah is there any other humans in the back of van yeah we're all of us are like in the back there's a few people in the back and about up to 80 chck yes
03:24:58 chck yes yeah um what were you able to observe of the stop um we I mean obviously we all a bit like panicking um so we' at this
03:25:13 bit like panicking um so we' at this point we'd got we'd opened the like bags because it was quite it was quite warm so we'd got the chickens were pretty
03:25:24 so we'd got the chickens were pretty like kind of running about um and and we just were trying you know like chickens are reasonably noisy and so there was there was obviously a van full of chickens and we could he I think he must have been telling us because like we couldn't see so we knew that he been pulled over somebody was coming up and the chickens making all this racket um
03:25:42 the chickens making all this racket um and I don't know I don't know why but we just it would be better if we like were coughing to try and cover up the sound of the chickens but why it would have been better to have a bunch of people in the back of the car coughing rather than like some chickens I don't know I don't
03:25:53 like some chickens I don't know I don't know but couldn't hear what I see um cuz I was on like the leftand side so I could see like sort of a conversation and I saw like the cop you know they knew that there was like people and chickens um he couldn't hear the
03:26:04 chickens um he couldn't hear the conversation and then they let us go and we you know we we all when on the end we thought it was like suspicious and that we just thought you know oh my God we've
03:26:17 we just thought you know oh my God we've been so lucky um so you got you'd gotten away with a shave yeah we thought you know we thought it was we thought like you know luck was on our side but I don't know I don't know what it was you know I didn't hear what he say so I
03:26:31 know I didn't hear what he say so I don't know if it was pre-planned or you know I just I don't know I'd like to know um but anyway yeah we got they let us go and the chickens I think were driven to a sanctuary that had been
03:26:43 driven to a sanctuary that had been agreed in advance yes and hn2 was aware that that was the destination yeah I just got to ask you one final question before lunch uh based on um something that hn2 has said in his witness statement did you ever take part in
03:27:00 statement did you ever take part in anything resembling this but where hm1 Matt rer was the driver no so driving you away to an animal sanctuary no no do you mean leaden Street well there are
03:27:11 you mean leaden Street well there are Parts in in h& 2's witness statement that refer to leaden street but there's also reference um in a similar a part of his statement to Great hooky Farm but at any event he is recalling an event a
03:27:23 any event he is recalling an event a raid where chickens were taken away yes and where hm1 Matt Raina drove the chickens away from the scene there's kind of there's a like there's a halft truth in there but yeah it's it's not yeah know I mean I if you want to
03:27:37 yeah know I mean I if you want to explain now yeah yeah let's tell us what the half truth is so were you ever driven away from that sort of scene by Matt Raina so what what part of it is is true I know cuz we used to do we used to be um do like the um demos at Laden
03:27:49 be um do like the um demos at Laden Street and this one particular time I think if I remember rightly it was after it wasn't long after the Horse and Hound hunt ball
03:27:58 hunt ball so I think I was I think I was injured
03:28:13 so I think I was I think I was injured um but anyway I wasn't at um I wasn't at this particular thing um I was at my parents home because um I know what happened there was like a um some activist ran in grabbed some some chickens and then ran away and um the chickens some of the
03:28:29 and um the chickens some of the chickens like f found their way onto the underground um sounds a bit strange but um my friend went down to the underground with the chicken um and anyway then phoned me and it turned and like you meet me at my local station so
03:28:43 like you meet me at my local station so I went and picked up this chicken um and then took it on for rehoming so I had I did have one of the chickens but I wasn't there so so you knew that it had happened because because my friend found me said can you take a chicken and did you have any knowledge
03:28:59 chicken and did you have any knowledge first or secondhand of hm1 Matt raina's involvement in that no I think I heard like afterwards as I know that he used to go to um to these so I know that that had happened but I think it may have been
03:29:13 been turkeys um but I know I I do I had heard that that had happened but like some people I think didn't go either didn't go with him or hn2 but decided that
03:29:25 go with him or hn2 but decided that they'd rather go on the Underground with the chickens to get them away so that's the laden Street yes incident if I call it that yes so hn2 was involved in that as well to your understanding I think there's varying like some people say it
03:29:38 there's varying like some people say it was hn1 and then other people say it was a hn2 and when he went to get his I mean there were multiple I think it's happened multiple times where of chickens or turkeys grabbed um where
03:29:50 chickens or turkeys grabbed um where he'd gone to get his van but by the time he came back everyone had gone um and the he there is hent two station two yes and this is information you're hearing from other people yes you were or were
03:30:02 from other people yes you were or were not involved in any of these other raids no I did um I did demos there and had out leaflets but I don't ever remember going in and and grabbing chickens and running but like I say you know if I had it done I would say um but I I didn't
03:30:14 it done I would say um but I I didn't what hn2 says in his witness date of the laden Street incident is that he recalls um you running in and coming out carrying a chicken does that fairly
03:30:26 carrying a chicken does that fairly describe what you did at Great hooky Farm yes yeah except I didn't come out run you know I picking the chickens up putting them in the bag so I didn't you know come out like running holding a
03:30:39 know come out like running holding a chicken but no I'm fairly sure that that never happened at Laden
03:30:47 Street oh just to be clear before we take lunch your evidence as you just gave it was that you heard from other people that hn1 Matt Raina had been involved in this type of incident yes but you're not necessarily sure whether
03:30:58 but you're not necessarily sure whether that's the laden Street incident or some other incident that you heard about no I don't remember I don't remember like any other um I don't remember like another
03:31:10 other um I don't remember like another chicken raid this is the only one that I like knew about and then like the odd chicken being taken from leaden street is it just what to make sure it's understood not at all I'm pushing you beyond lunchtime the what you're saying
03:31:26 beyond lunchtime the what you're saying is what you think you've heard about is hm1 involved in the laden Street yes yeah incident thank you thank you we will resume at 5 2 yes thank you all right