Afternoon session examining allegations that Robert Lambert participated in the July 1987 Debenhams department store incendiary attacks. Lambert denies involvement despite testimony from six witnesses (Belinda Harvey, Simon Terain, Jackie, Paul Graveitt, Jeff Shepherd, Helen Steel) claiming he confided in them about the attacks. Contentious exchanges about witness credibility, motivation, and Lambert's denials.
00:20:57 e e
00:21:37 at the start of this afternoon's proceedings proceedings will continue to be live streamed but there will come a point when the live stream will be cut off and we will revert to
00:21:48 off and we will revert to uh a full restrict reporting restriction order procedure um throughout uh this afternoon those
00:22:00 um throughout uh this afternoon those who have electronic devices may use them to report what they hear in the hearing room but only after 10 minutes have elapsed they may not use their devices to record or photograph uh what they report is subject to the reporting
00:22:13 report is subject to the reporting restriction order and if anybody is in any doubt about what they may Li what they may send out uh please ask a member of the inquiry staff uh yes
00:22:32 Mr Mr Lambert did you in fact join a small group of
00:22:33 group of people who planned and then executed the incendiary device attacks
00:22:46 executed the incendiary device attacks on deon's department stores on the 11th and 12th of July 1987 I didn't know did you attend
00:23:04 Gatherings of the group at parks in North and East London to plan the attacks I
00:23:20 didn't did you attend a meeting in a park at which Andrew Clark Paul
00:23:29 Paul grait Jeff Shephard and Helen steel were present
00:23:40 present um well not not that I can
00:23:54 recall a meeting at which Helen steel was invited to join the conspiracy no no no I can be sure that I wasn't there an invitation which she
00:24:19 declined um no I can be sure that I wasn't there were you involved in discussions to select the targets for these improvised incend device
00:24:34 device attacks no I wasn't were you party to a decision that deams should be the target of the attack no were you party to
00:24:51 no were you party to discussions from which it emerged that Andrew Clark would Target the Luton store Jeff Shephard the Romford store
00:25:07 store Jeff Shephard the Romford store store Paul grait the reading store and that you would Target the Harrow branch no I was
00:25:18 not were you uh party to an arrangement with Paul
00:25:26 with Paul grait to siphon funds from a benefit gig held on the 13th of June une
00:25:33 1987 for the purposes of funding these attacks no did you have anything to do
00:25:48 attacks no did you have anything to do with a Alf HSA benefit gig held in slau on the 13th of June 1987
00:25:55 1987 um I don't Rec slow no I well I I I don't recall it could we have up please
00:26:21 37252 I'll give you a moment to familiarize yourself
00:26:52 um well it doesn't prompt a clear recollection of
00:27:03 prompt a clear recollection of um of being there um of the event I I mean I can't rule it out um so I
00:27:11 um so I think that's all I can say at the moment could we take that down please did you conduct a reconnaissance of the Harrow branch no I
00:27:37 didn't did Jeff Shephard conduct a reconnaissance of the Romford branch and tell you that they did not have a fur Department
00:27:48 Department no did you persuade Jeff Shephard that he should pursue the attack on the Romford Branch nevertheless no
00:28:03 did you tell Jackie before the attacks that the action was going to happen no I'm I'm sure that I did
00:28:24 happen no I'm I'm sure that I did not did you tell Jackie that Helen steel was a member of the cell or anything like that I'm sure that I did not
00:28:35 were you telling her these things before [Music]
00:28:40 [Music] June um I'm sorry were you telling her these things before June of
00:28:45 June of 1987 was I telling Jackie yes no no no did you tell her at some point before
00:28:58 no did you tell her at some point before the attacks that the target was going to be deon's
00:29:02 be deon's stores
00:29:13 no did you shortly after first meeting Simon
00:29:19 Simon terain give him the impression that you were involved in Arsen attacks I'm well I'm pretty sure that I did not
00:29:36 did not you did befriend him didn't you I don't I don't think so we you know we spoke together um I knew him we had conversations I don't think we ever became
00:29:44 became friends when you say you had conversations you had convers conversations about the
00:29:57 conversations about the ethics of things like incend attacks to advance the core La of animal Liberation well I I don't recall um I don't really recall what we discussed
00:30:17 recall what we discussed so could we have up please a document which is from volume 3 tab B Roman numeral
00:30:19 numeral 139
00:30:22 139 723 092
00:30:40 could we have uh first of all the first page of text to show the witness what this document is thank you this is a section nine witness statement made by Simon terain on the 18th of May
00:30:58 2016 could we go to page P four [Music]
00:31:10 please I'm looking for the third and fourth paragraphs up from the bottom
00:31:21 please it was probably about a month after meeting Bob that he started to talk about elements of his life Belinda would say say Bob wants to talk to you about some stuff and then he did he
00:31:33 about some stuff and then he did he would seem to want to talk about the ethics particularly of what he'd been doing in the incendiary line I have never understood why he would have
00:31:45 never understood why he would have singled me out for that because I'm not an anarchist I am not into animal rights
00:31:57 an anarchist I am not into animal rights and I have eaten meat all my life why he singled me out for this I don't know is it right that s Simon termain was not an anarchist not into animal rights and an
00:32:11 rights and an omnivore
00:32:13 omnivore um I'm sure that that's right could we go to the top of page five please
00:32:36 I can recall uh when he would discuss with me things like the ethics of setting off an incendiary device in a department store my point of view would be that even if you've got
00:32:50 be that even if you've got timers uh that it ensures it isn't going to go off until everyone's gone home then you're still putting firefighters and security staff at risk if your timer malfunctions and it goes off you know
00:33:06 malfunctions and it goes off you know with people in the store this could be really dire you could kill people are your animal ethics worth this that was
00:33:21 your animal ethics worth this that was my point of view that was my argument in September after the fires at the deham stores and the arrest of a couple of people and Bob was saying I really want to carry on with this stuff and I am saying Bob you can't do it you've
00:33:32 saying Bob you can't do it you've obviously got an Informer within your group you would be insane to carry on with it never mind any of the ethics of
00:33:46 with it never mind any of the ethics of it I think Bob mentioned the people the context was that he was in it over his head that it was we who do these things
00:33:57 head that it was we who do these things I was right against wanting to have any specific
00:33:58 specific knowledge I did not want to know specifics I did not want to hear that he had personally done these things although the whole context of the
00:34:10 although the whole context of the conversation was that he had done these things and that he would go to jail big time if he was caught starting with the first paragraph
00:34:26 caught starting with the first paragraph that I read out is it right that you had conversation about incenter devices along the lines there set out
00:34:40 out um I'm confident that it is completely
00:34:56 false going to the next paragraph did you after the attacks on the deam stores uh portray yourself to Mr terain as really wanting to carry on with such
00:35:09 really wanting to carry on with such attacks um I look I am confident that this you know this is not I mean this is not an
00:35:23 not an account that I can place any Credence on I don't believe it's I don't believe it's um sort neutral
00:35:30 neutral um no I
00:35:42 um no I in I can't well I could try and talk to individual Parts but this whole statement I I believe to be
00:35:44 be um well certainly to be
00:35:59 false in what ways do you say the evidence of a man who was against arson attacks an omnivore and not an activist is providing a partisan
00:36:13 activist is providing a partisan account um I do have reasons to doubt the authenticity of it
00:36:19 um and
00:36:24 um I can um
00:36:32 I can develop that but I can't probably can't do that
00:36:40 immediately are you saying that if I give an opportunity to you now your answer is you don't want to take it now you want to take it at a later
00:36:51 you want to take it at a later date um well I I would just yeah I would just need
00:36:59 some maybe some guidance but um I mean I'm happy to talk to it um if you want me to why your reticence
00:37:15 to why your reticence now well only I'm just conscious I don't want to
00:37:17 want to um you know breach any um any of the rules Pro you know here today um if you're concerned about
00:37:30 today um if you're concerned about breaching any restriction orders you can write down what you want to say I am affording you an opportunity to tell the chairman of any reason why you think
00:37:45 chairman of any reason why you think Simon Tain would have a motive to tell lies about you um well um um when
00:38:00 um um when um uh when I when my when my identity as an
00:38:04 an undercover police officer became known um
00:38:08 known um and there were you know obviously a lot of um
00:38:18 of um attention on me um I have a recollection um that he was um you know
00:38:29 was um you know contributing um to discussion on on a particular Forum a forum that had um let's say an actra grind with me um
00:38:49 and for that reason um I mean if if it was possible today to
00:39:03 today to retrieve um the items that I was reading what was that 2000 and 11 12 that that period I think that would at the very least
00:39:12 least um you know explain my reticence to give Credence uh to his
00:39:28 Credence uh to his account does it amount to because he was angry with you because you had sexually deceived a close friend of his into a protracted emotional relationship um one but that's not what his contributions to this discussion group
00:39:53 this discussion group um alerted me to um yes I sorry I'll let you finish I mean that's but that is I think that is perhaps part of his motivation for um this this account but the but the point I'm making is that
00:40:08 point I'm making is that um I had grounds reasonable grounds for thinking in let's call it 2011 thereabouts um that he was part of a group that had an entirely separate a
00:40:27 a group that had an entirely separate a to grind with me which was then current in
00:40:36 in 2011 a current um acts to grind with me so arising from your work with the Muslim contact unit
00:40:51 yes can we now take that down and move to what you might have said to Belinda
00:40:56 Belinda Harvey can we have from volume four tab B Roman numeral 264
00:41:01 264 737 217
00:41:17 please page six
00:41:30 please this is a witness statement of Belinda Harvey made to police in February
00:41:46 2018 if we could have it expanded the text from the subheading Bob and deams onwards
00:41:52 onwards please thank you Bob first spoke to me about deams before the July Events I know this because he was speaking about something that was going to happen in the
00:42:02 the future I think this was about three or
00:42:16 future I think this was about three or four weeks before the attacks in July I had only known Bob a few weeks at the time is that correct no I I
00:42:28 correct no I I seriously um I said well I know it it it isn't
00:42:29 isn't correct goes on to say I think we were in my bedroom in Margery Park Road when he first talked of the planned deams
00:42:40 he first talked of the planned deams attacks he told me he was going to be involved in a direct action and that the fur coats in deams were to be the
00:42:59 fur coats in deams were to be the targets he told me that Jeff Shepard and Andrew Clark were to be involved and as I recall there was a fourth person who pulled out before they went ahead although I am less sure of this particular detail there may even have been a
00:43:05 been a fifth did you communicate those things
00:43:16 fifth did you communicate those things to Belinda Harvey as she describes no I did not or in any manner at all before the attacks no in the end it was just Jeff Andrew
00:43:28 no in the end it was just Jeff Andrew and Bob told me that only he Jeff and Andrew ended up participating in the
00:43:39 participating in the action did he did you tell him that no sorry you tell her that he did not tell me beforehand which day it was going to happen or which
00:43:56 day it was going to happen or which store he was going to all I knew from him was that some stores selling fur coats with the target is that right no it's not he told me that the
00:44:07 right no it's not he told me that the plan was to enter the store and place the incendiary devices in the fur department so that they would set off sprinklers and ruin the stock did you tell her that no as I
00:44:20 stock did you tell her that no as I recall he said the devices were to be placed inside a large box of matches or possibly cigarette box the devices were in fact placed inside a large box of
00:44:37 in fact placed inside a large box of matches weren't they um yes I believe so did you tell her that no I did not he said that the overall plan was that each device was to be placed in a different store on the same
00:44:51 store on the same day they were to place the devices in the store during opening hours and presumably there was a timer mechanism for them to go off in the night did you tell her that no I
00:45:02 night did you tell her that no I certainly did not he talked about the plan more than once before it happened he talked about it to such an extent that I told him I didn't want to know
00:45:14 that I told him I didn't want to know about it and turned the discussion to an another subject is that right no it's not the conversations were in our house it was just the two of us no that right no go over the page
00:45:35 please between 47 and 50 thank you I thought it was wrong I tried to persuade him not to do it as I thought it was wrong is that true no I asked him how he could contemplate such a thing
00:45:46 how he could contemplate such a thing that might kill somebody he he reassured me that the action would not hurt anyone the purpose was to create smoke to set off the sprinklers so that all the fur coats would be damaged and could not be
00:45:58 coats would be damaged and could not be sold but it was otherwise supposed to be safe did you say anything to that effect no I did
00:46:12 no I did not my love for Bob obscured my thoughts and I didn't internalize how serious he was about it he told me not to tell anyone is that right no he said that
00:46:24 anyone is that right no he said that Jeff and Andrew would be fuming if they knew he had told me I felt it was an indication of how much he loved and Trust trusted me that he told me about this that was my main
00:46:37 this that was my main thought did you tell Belinda Harvey that Jeff and Andrew would be fuming if they knew that you had told her no I did
00:46:49 not was confiding in Belinda Harvey about the plans for these attacks a way of cementing your
00:47:00 attacks a way of cementing your emotional and sexual relationship with her certainly
00:47:09 not she says at paragraph 48 it was clear to me that these conversations were before the deams attack I said to him that I did not want him to do it he said that he was in too deep I clearly remember finding it a bit
00:47:26 deep I clearly remember finding it a bit odd that he said that he was in too deep these were the words he used he said that he had just gone too far down the line and could not pull out now did you say that I did not say that
00:47:46 now did you say that I did not say that did you say that to Belinda at any time whether before or after the attacks at no
00:47:58 time he said that he would not do anything like this ever again and that afterwards he was just going to be a taxi driver and a partner to me he recognized that he could not go on doing this sort of
00:48:11 this sort of thing did you say that to Belinda after the attacks I'm sure that I did
00:48:16 not could we take that down now
00:48:30 please could we have up uh from volume four to tab B Roman numeral 267
00:48:31 267 737
00:48:46 218 could we go past the cover sheet to show the witness what this is this is a section nine witness statement made by Belinda Harvey in in
00:49:02 2018 can we go to page four [Music]
00:49:07 please paragraph
00:49:18 nine on the weekend of the 11th and 12th of July
00:49:19 of July 1987 was Bob with you I remember that Bob was with me and told me that he was going off to meet Andrew and Jeff they
00:49:36 going off to meet Andrew and Jeff they were going to meet in a park and then go off their separate ways with the devices in her oral evidence Belinda
00:49:50 devices in her oral evidence Belinda Harvey described you leaving her home quite late at night about 11:00ish
00:50:04 did you on the night of the 10th of July Friday the 10th of July 1987 leave Belinda's home having told
00:50:15 1987 leave Belinda's home having told her that you are going to meet Andrew and Jeff I'm sure that I didn't did you on any other
00:50:28 didn't did you on any other date tell Belinda Harvey that you are going to meet Andrew and Jeff in a park and then go off your separate ways with the devices
00:50:52 no could we take that uh that paragraph down and could we go now to page five paragraph 12
00:51:06 when did this meeting with Andrew and Jeff to finalize Arrangements take place and this is in the witness statement where she says around 11:00 I only remember that Bob Lambert left at around 11: p.m. on the night I was just going to bed and he surprised me by saying
00:51:20 to bed and he surprised me by saying that he was going off to meet Jeff and Andrew I do not know if Bob was going straight to meet them or going home first I had expected him to be saying with me as he usually did I did not take it seriously to be honest and although
00:51:33 it seriously to be honest and although it sounds strange I just thought it was bravado and doubted that Bob would really be doing anything does reading that change your
00:51:45 anything does reading that change your answers to my last two questions in any way no could we take the document down now
00:51:52 now please on the 11th of July 1987 which was a Saturday did you collect two one or more improvised explosive sorry improvised incendiary
00:52:12 explosive sorry improvised incendiary devices for the purpose of planting at deim
00:52:14 deim no did you go to a house where there were eight such devices laid out on a bed or a table no I
00:52:40 didn't did you meet Andrew Clark Jeff sheeper or Paul grait during the day on the 11th of July no I did
00:52:58 not did you travel to Harrow and plant a single improvised incendiary device in the Harrow branch of deams no in the luggage area
00:53:15 no did you on the evening of the 11th of July
00:53:28 1987 go to a gig in Stoke Newington and meet Paul grait Jeff Shephard and Andrew Clark I'm sorry didn't did you go no the date 11th of July on the evening of the 11th the Saturday
00:53:40 11th the Saturday evening um no I I'm sure that I
00:53:50 didn't were you involved in any way with the telephone calls that were made to claim responsibility for the attacks no
00:54:01 did you attend a meeting with any of the three men I've just
00:54:09 just named
00:54:15 named therea to discuss the attacks
00:54:17 attacks no did you attend a meeting with any of those three men after the attacks and I
00:54:30 those three men after the attacks and I use meeting in a very loose sense of the word at which those attacks were discussed no are you sure about that
00:54:58 yes could we go please to the document at volume 4 tab B Roman numeral to tab 64
00:55:00 64 737
00:55:10 217 this is the same statement we had up a moment ago her statement of 2018 to the police could we go to page eight
00:55:22 eight please and thank you if we could have it expanded so I can read from par 56 please I first learned that the attacks
00:55:37 please I first learned that the attacks had taken place from Bob I did not read about them in the paper or on the news either at the time or later though I think at some point later someone told me that they had been on the news it
00:55:51 me that they had been on the news it might have been Bob who told me it was a day or so after it had happened that he told me about it I don't remember where this conversation took place no one else was there I think I understood that the
00:56:03 was there I think I understood that the attacks had happened a day or a few days
00:56:22 attacks had happened a day or a few days before our conversation because Bob told me it had happened a day or a few days before is that account holy or partly correct
00:56:28 correct um yeah I'm I'm not quite sure um
00:56:31 certainly
00:56:35 well it's
00:56:41 um um I can't really can't really be sure at the moment um just
00:56:51 um I mean
00:57:01 um which um I don't know can you take me through it what well this is Belinda Harvey saying a day or so after the attacks you told her about
00:57:16 after the attacks you told her about them did you do well I I mean I can't recall but I'm I mean at some point
00:57:22 point um at some point I'm sure I would have talked to her about it um you know once I learned about it for
00:57:39 sure uh if I pick it up from 59 Bob told me that Jeff Andrew and he had placed incend devices at three deam stores he did not tell me which stores had been attacked or who had placed incend
00:57:50 attacked or who had placed incend devices at which stores I had the impression there was another store planned or actually targeted the same night but can't be sure about this did
00:58:05 night but can't be sure about this did you tell Belinda Harvey that Jeff Andrew and you had placed iids at three different devanam stores no I'm I'm sure that I did not did you tell her that one of the
00:58:22 not did you tell her that one of the devices had not gone off even though it had been planted no I pick it up at 61 he told me about the device and how it was made as if I might
00:58:39 device and how it was made as if I might be interested which I clearly was not he told me that they learned how to make the devices from some publication I think a book called The Anarchist Cookbook I have a recollection that he showed me a sheet of paper perhaps a photocopy with instruction on how to make devices it I did not look at it
00:58:51 make devices it I did not look at it carefully but I do recall that Bob had it in his hand and was waving it around in front front of me I think he told me that Jeff and Andrew were involved in
00:59:03 that Jeff and Andrew were involved in making the devices and they planned it all
00:59:04 all together is it true that you told Belinda Harvey uh how the devices had
00:59:17 Belinda Harvey uh how the devices had been made including by reference uh to some form of instruction no I'm absolutely certain that I didn't
00:59:35 he told me he had put the device down the back or side of a sofa did you do that I certainly did
00:59:45 not he made it clear to me that he had planted an incend device did you do that no I had other conversations with him over the following days about what had happened
01:00:01 following days about what had happened he wanted to talk about it I did not we talked at the house I have a recollection of him telling me something about having met up with Andrew and Jeff to finalize Arrangements they and I think we've
01:00:14 Arrangements they and I think we've we've had some similar evidence read already so I will stop
01:00:26 there did you want to portray to Belinda Harvey that you were a hardcore ILS Al
01:00:28 Al activist
01:00:53 no why is it that Belinda Harvey Simon terain and Jackie all say that you spoke to them about these attacks in terms which indicated that you were involved um I mean I can only speculate
01:01:05 I mean I can only speculate um and and um obviously I've thought about it and I've offered you
01:01:20 one thought um that I've had as regards the authenticity of Simon tain's uh statement but unless you unless you want me to I I won't offer any speculation I can be I can be clear in my own mind
01:01:38 clear in my own mind that they're not true I've denied every allegation and if um
01:01:51 um well if you if I I don't know I don't I don't feel inclined to speculate there is one I mean we it's up to you you Mr Lambert I'm giving you the opportunity if you wish to advance to the chairman any
01:02:03 to advance to the chairman any explanation well okay um I mean I haven't I haven't read this before um but I I think it must be
01:02:14 be important for me to just refer to what is
01:02:25 just refer to what is only sort come to my attention recently um
01:02:29 just to sort of begin um grounds for doubting the authenticity of this account from Belinda
01:02:47 um you know I've read um Robin
01:02:54 um Robin Lane's um statement account um it seems clear that he had um an ongoing uh friendship with Belinda after after my
01:03:09 after after my departure um I don't I mean
01:03:12 mean but I'll just leave it there Al I I think it might be sufficient to just be able to
01:03:22 able to recognize that perhaps her [Music]
01:03:23 [Music] own understandable um anger at discovering that I was really an undercover police
01:03:39 undercover police officer um the kind of information that she's using in this statement which is really quite you know potentially that is quite damning to me
01:03:50 me um just as a very what is for me a very preliminary thought on this because I've only just
01:04:02 only just really you know put been aware of it but I think it seems to me there is
01:04:16 I think it seems to me there is potential that Belinda has had um an on some cont ongoing contact with individuals including Robin Lane which could potentially be the source of her information here
01:04:39 um Simon Belinda Jackie um I haven't read her well you've you I think you've addressed some of her um evidence to me um
01:04:57 um uh I don't know I I don't I think um again I I would um I
01:04:59 I I I think probably Jackie is more for for you know the for the reason that
01:05:10 that um Jackie and I have been involved in the sort of the The Joint Enterprise of helping our son
01:05:36 helping our son to come to terms with this this you know with my background I I think Jack's comments might you
01:05:39 might you know might be um I don't think it's malicious I I I don't know I don't I I'm not quite sure what to make of it but I
01:05:52 not quite sure what to make of it but I in any event I strongly disagree with um Jack's Recollections as well but on on the face of it it's this one that's on my screen at the moment that seems to be the most potentially the most damaging to me and I
01:06:08 to me and I feel inclined you know for my
01:06:10 my um you know for what I know to be the truth and given you know my family who will
01:06:26 will be very interested in what the truth is I think I've I've got to at least um say what I can about um you know what might be behind it
01:06:35 it um perhaps I should leave it there uh I'm being told that you were shown this witness statement when you made your own
01:06:55 witness statement when you made your own witness statement and there is reference to it oh well then I i' apologies um um but that doesn't alter it well it doesn't certainly doesn't alter the fact that I've recently um read um Robin
01:07:14 recently um read um Robin Lane's uh statement about his ongoing relationship with no I don't I just mean um friendship with um Belinda and then there is the fact that
01:07:27 Belinda and then there is the fact that Paul grait who escaped detection at the time has come forward and told this inquiry that you were part of the team
01:07:39 inquiry that you were part of the team which bombed deams on the 11th and 12th July
01:07:45 1987 why would you do that um again I can I can only um speculate
01:08:00 and then there's Mr Shephard who's done his
01:08:07 his time for his part in the attacks why would he come forward and say that you were a part of this cell if that were not
01:08:26 part of this cell if that were not true um I think both Paul grait and Jeff Shepard would have um adequate grounds or ad adequate motivation in terms of simple Revenge um
01:08:41 um I I deceive them and [Music]
01:08:44 [Music] um um
01:08:56 if if I'd been asked in 1987 you know what should I expect from my then
01:09:08 expect from my then Alf friends contacts what should I expect if they discovered my true identity I would expect serious harm to myself my family
01:09:26 expect serious harm to myself my family serious Jeopardy to uh bu following from that to other colleagues on the S s and
01:09:37 um today I don't well um
01:09:44 this collectively um well no sticking with Clark and shepher that would um be a
01:09:53 be a potential motiv ation
01:10:08 potential motiv ation Revenge so five people all telling lies on oath or affirmation to a public inquiry in order to exact revenge and to for the you know for the benefit
01:10:21 benefit of um the movement that many of them come from
01:10:23 come from to portray me as an agent provocator to portray me in in these terms um it's
01:10:45 um well it sort of I can understand it in those terms as a as a
01:10:46 a motivation um but I can only be entirely certain of my own
01:11:04 certain of my own evidence and Helen steel whose evidence was that she did attend a meeting in a park at which you were present at which she was invited into the
01:11:09 the conspiracy that makes half a dozen is your explanation for why she would give that evidence any different than for the other
01:11:20 than for the other five no
01:11:33 you talked about the harm that you asserted you might come to if you had been
01:11:35 been discovered you were eventually discovered you have not come to any
01:11:54 discovered you have not come to any physical harm have you no neither has John dyes who also was targeting the ALF that's
01:12:03 correct nor has any other former SDS officer
01:12:17 officer no the evidence given to this inquiry is to the effect that if you had been uncovered uh the fact you were an undercover police officer would have been milked to the full for
01:12:34 been milked to the full for publicity effect but you would not have been subjected to physical violence because that is not the way of the
01:12:48 ALF is that a reasonable assumption as to what in fact would have happened if you had been uncovered in um in in
01:12:55 um in in 19 um sorry in 200 1987 1987
01:13:03 1987 1987 well
01:13:13 um I think the
01:13:14 the [Music]
01:13:16 [Music] um the
01:13:23 evidence points the other way in 87 the
01:13:33 87 the the all of the tactics that we've seen um incend devices and so forth
01:13:36 forth um I think
01:13:44 they they would um I think the people the
01:13:45 the um whoever was in charge of that kind of risk assessment at the time I I think it would have been
01:14:24 take
02:05:20 e e