Robert Lambert's testimony covering his fourth deceitful sexual relationship with Belinda Harvey, a non-activist accountant. Shown the note 'thinking about you A LOT... looking forward to seeing you again SOON', Lambert apologizes and admits pursuing her in 'the cold light of day' was wrong. He denies seducing young women was 'a perk of the job' but cannot explain why all four were in their early 20s. When asked about seeking monogamy from Harvey while having a wife and child, Lambert says he 'can't recall' the conversation she describes. Extensive questioning on his June 1987 intelligence about forthcoming IID campaign in London.
00:34:56 e e
00:35:41 good morning uh today's proceedings are going to be live streamed uh those with electronic devices May uh use them to transmit to the outside world uh what they have heard but only 10 minutes after what they are describing has elapsed the proceedings are subject to a
00:35:59 elapsed the proceedings are subject to a reporting restriction order and you must uh ensure please that that is strictly complied with when transmitting what you've heard your devices may not be
00:36:12 you've heard your devices may not be used for recording or photography um we are going to sit today uh until 4:30 there will be um uh a break in the morning as usual there will be a break in the afternoon as usual uh it is
00:36:29 in the afternoon as usual uh it is important that uh the witness is able to give evidence about important issues that are going to be discussed today uh and to do so um when fit and able to do so therefore Mr Lambert if there comes a stage uh at any stage in
00:36:44 there comes a stage uh at any stage in today's proceedings when uh you feel you need a break which is not announced in advance please say so thank you sir Mr B thank you
00:37:02 B thank you sir Mr Lambert is it right that you you first met Belinda Harvey at a house party
00:37:03 party uh yes I I think that um that may be right um I my recollection
00:37:23 recollection um my recollection was that it was um some sort of benefit gig but um I I think
00:37:38 um what um what I've read from her evidence is that it was um a
00:37:41 um a party
00:37:43 party um an invitations I think from someone in the animal rights movement um in any event yes I met a
00:37:59 movement um in any event yes I met a well I'm I'm quite prepared to accept that it was a party yes in the East End of London yes Forest
00:38:07 Forest Gate no oh no no no sort of um Stoke
00:38:18 Newington uh at that party uh your eyes met across the room uh I can't recall precisely uh and there came came a time uh
00:38:37 time uh when Belinda Harvey was on her own and you went over to speak to her again I I can't remember uh I can't remember precisely but I'm I'm prepared to accept
00:38:52 but I'm I'm prepared to accept that and you both got on well with one another
00:38:59 another immediately um yes to the best of my recollection that that's right yeah you talked for quite some time I I I think yes I think that's right
00:39:14 right yes uh and in the small hours of the morning you offered to give Belinda Harvey and her friend and housemate Simon
00:39:30 Simon terain a lift home well I don't recall it but I I'm quite prepared to accept that
00:39:32 that um that was the
00:39:43 case and when you got uh to their house which was in margerie Park Road you dropped them off uh again yes I'm except that was the
00:39:55 off uh again yes I'm except that was the case is it right oh no sorry no you said marjerie Park Road yes no no they they no well certainly no no Belinda Harvey wasn't living at that address then it was
00:40:09 was um an address I think I've
00:40:12 I've mentioned in an interview um it was
00:40:25 mentioned in an interview um it was in Fairly I mean it was fairly close to the event where we met um Stoke Newington
00:40:27 Newington I I'm not saying it in any pejorative way or important way but it it was a it was a squat as I recall
00:40:38 recall um
00:40:39 um [Music]
00:40:48 [Music] so I mean it was I I think it would have been in walking distance of where the event was so I
00:41:03 the event was so I mean um is this a a property that you came to visit many times thereafter um well SE um several
00:41:13 times it was a shared house not a squat wasn't
00:41:22 wasn't it well um that's my recollection but um I'm quite prepared to accept
00:41:24 accept um that it was a shared House of of
00:41:38 um did you kiss elinda Harvey on that first evening when you were dropping her off well
00:41:44 I um no I I genuinely can't recall did she give her your telephone number um again I I can't recall
00:42:02 number um again I I can't recall I may well telephone number um I I I can't
00:42:08 recall did you go into the house on that first occasion or not um no no
00:42:23 reflection can we have up on the screen please from volume three tab B Roman numeral
00:42:25 numeral 122 73
00:42:39 37136 could we have page five
00:42:47 please if we could thank you this uh is a note which is dated Tuesday evening 228
00:43:03 note which is dated Tuesday evening 228 Graham Road East 8 228 Graham Road East 8 was your cover address wasn't it uh correct dear Belinda just a line to say that I'm thinking about you block capitals a lot exclamation
00:43:17 exclamation market and that I'm looking forward to seeing you again block capitals soon so I'll limp downstairs to the
00:43:28 soon so I'll limp downstairs to the letter box and post this card to you and then I'll search for a phone box that works and ring you for a block capitals two exclamation marks date Love
00:43:41 two exclamation marks date Love Bob this is a note that you wrote and delivered to Belinda Harvey's home in
00:43:52 delivered to Belinda Harvey's home in the days shortly after the party isn't it I'm sure it
00:44:03 it I'm sure it is and you were following up on having hit it off with her at the party
00:44:11 yes why did you write this note
00:44:25 um I can't think today um of anything beyond what seems sort of very clear in in the in the letter I I know I guess you're asking me to think beyond what I am
00:44:48 beyond what I am clearly saying and doing um I mean but quite to add to talk beyond that um I will if you I'll try let me put it another way this is a considered action in The Cold Light of day um
00:45:01 day um yes very
00:45:04 yes very obviously
00:45:05 obviously pursuing a relationship yes you are a undercover police officer in the course of your
00:45:17 in the course of your duty why were you seeking to form an intimate relationship with a member of the public
00:45:30 um I think I
00:45:32 think I was involved in my life as uh Bob Robinson
00:45:42 Robinson and I I failed to give the
00:45:50 give the consideration um the proper consideration to my actions here I mean clearly I I can see today how wrong it
00:46:03 today how wrong it was
00:46:11 um and because in case I I forget it you know and this is I hadn't obviously I haven't seen this for sort of you know nearly 40 years um so
00:46:31 sort of you know nearly 40 years um so it you know this this demonstrates to to me uh sort of you know beyond question um my role and and um uh so
00:46:40 um uh so it's it's the right moment you know for me
00:46:41 me to apologize um uh directly to uh Belinda um you know I shouldn't have written that letter I had every
00:46:53 written that letter I had every opportunity not to I I can only um apologize and take not I mean yes I
00:47:07 um apologize and take not I mean yes I do sorry uh yeah I take responsibility for that
00:47:13 for that um I know that the impact of my undercover role um at that
00:47:24 undercover role um at that stage 1987 I know that it was taking a toll in the way that um clinical um psychiatrists such as G Gordon turull recognize and and talk to and I I
00:47:42 turull recognize and and talk to and I I don't I'm not seeking to use any of that as an excuse only some kind of perhaps at best some sort of mitigation or explanation as as to why I acted in a way um that I would not otherwise do I
00:47:55 way um that I would not otherwise do I as as you know well I don't know but as you know from me at any rate um you know I I was
00:48:08 I I was never um a womanizer outside of my life as Bob
00:48:10 as Bob Robinson um here I am age 72 I've had two sexual relationships
00:48:25 72 I've had two sexual relationships both with my wives my f my former wife I beg you Pon and and my current wife um I've never ever dress of doing that the i' I've and yet four
00:48:38 of doing that the i' I've and yet four times I've done it as as we've now seen this is the fourth time I've had um enter entered into um a a relationship that I shouldn't have done they all happened and it's the only times that this has happened in my 72
00:48:58 times that this has happened in my 72 years um and the again this is only some kind
00:48:59 kind of context and mitigation and what you know what's left um you know I I'm I'm in the wrong absolutely but the only thing that I think I can
00:49:15 thing that I think I can prove well well I think I can go some way to establishing here um is
00:49:28 way to establishing here um is that at all points in this relationship and the others I acted with you know
00:49:29 you know complete um respect for um the the in this case you know for Belinda's um wishes
00:49:46 Belinda's um wishes um and Not only was that my inclination to be kind and considerate and know affectionate thoughtful but um in
00:49:57 in addition I had to be because that we might see evidence that if a member of my circle this you know the group that
00:50:11 my circle this you know the group that we we're now familiar with If any man in that Circle was even
00:50:27 that Circle was even ever thought of as some kind of sexual predator and even worse any sort of um sexual abuse um that that
00:50:28 that that individual that activist would be um expelled and and
00:50:39 activist would be um expelled and and there's evidence of that so there was my own inclination but in terms of maintaining cover um it wasn't a problem but for me but it but I only say that to highlight that
00:50:52 to highlight that um I
00:50:54 um I was um
00:51:02 was um I behaved as Bob Robinson and indeed as Bob
00:51:08 Bob Lambert has only ever behaved uh towards uh women could we take that document down
00:51:25 please was the reality that you regarded seducing young women during the course of your deployment as a perk of the job
00:51:30 job um you know Mr bar I I that was not me
00:51:41 um you know Mr bar I I that was not me um and and that is important for me to say I'm I'm not making excuses it was wrong um but I I was not that person I
00:51:56 wrong um but I I was not that person I I've seen I've read in recent years um counts that I am in the same bracket as one or two
00:52:10 am in the same bracket as one or two notorious police officers who are now in prison serving long sentences for
00:52:18 for serious um sexual abuse of women I you know I've been that's where my reputation lies to many many people today I am placed in in that category um and that's really why I'm
00:52:36 category um and that's really why I'm speaking trying to speak as frankly and honestly to you today and throughout this week um because that means a lot to me it means a lot to my means a lot to my
00:52:50 my means a lot to my family even though um I've let I've let my family down I've let um both my first wife and my present life I've let them down I've let
00:53:07 let them down I've let my deceased children down I've let my my
00:53:09 my my son my living son I've let everyone down I've let former colleagues down the vast majority of colleagues [Music]
00:53:20 [Music] who you know never made the mistakes
00:53:31 who you know never made the mistakes that I did never made the decisions I did I was wrong and and I apologize sincerely um but I I
00:53:45 um I accept um I accept all all the criticism that I'm sure I will get and and I I can I need I need you know I need that I need to I I should I don't want to make excuses um
00:54:11 four deceived women in the course of your deployment what other explanation is there if it is not perk of the job it's
00:54:13 job it's some a full
00:54:20 explanation will come from with the input of um an experience
00:54:33 of um an experience clinical psychiatrist plus my own honest
00:54:35 honest um
00:54:40 um participation I I think that would be
00:54:42 be um a step in that
00:54:48 direction back to London in
00:55:04 1987 the first date uh you took uh Belinda Harvey to a vegan restaurant in Stoke new Eng Church Street didn't you I'm sure I did a restaurant that you'd used before um quite
00:55:24 probably uh you after the meal held hands and went back to your flat um that sounds that sounds um quite you know yes I'm sure that's what happened yeah your flat was Spartan but
00:55:41 happened yeah your flat was Spartan but there were a number of what's wrong with McDonald's leaflets there um I'm sure there
00:55:48 were was it on that occasion that the relationship first became sexual I can't recall but I think um that sounds you know quite quite
00:56:02 that sounds you know quite quite likely uh but whether it was on that occasion or some other the relationship there came a time when you had sex yes and it became a sexual relationship yes did you consider whether Belinda
00:56:16 yes did you consider whether Belinda Harvey would have consented to sex if she had known who you really were I I don't think I gave that consideration
00:56:29 don't think I gave that consideration if you had given it consideration what would the answer have
00:56:32 been
00:56:44 um I can't recall now really what how I would have thought at the time what is your thinking now um Can yes forgive me and and the question you're putting would Belinda
00:57:02 question you're putting would Belinda Harvey have consented to to sex with you if she had known who you really were oh no I no no I I don't think
00:57:14 so is there anything else you want to say about why you entered into both an emotional and sexual relationship with Belinda Harvey in particular
00:57:33 Belinda Harvey in particular I would like to know whether it's your evidence that enhancing your cover or obtaining intellig were
00:57:44 obtaining intellig were motives no I I don't think I'm fairly sure th those were not motives I think
00:57:46 think um there may have been um they may have been I think there may have been some
00:58:00 been I think there may have been some uh benefits that ensued but that was not my
00:58:12 motive could we have up now please from volume three tab B little Roman numeral one41 the document at 3
00:58:25 4798 for
00:59:02 3 4978
00:59:11 sorry thank you go to page
00:59:27 nine is it right that you first met Belinda Harvey either in late March or early April of 1987 that that sounds um sounds about right
00:59:36 right yeah before you first had sex with Belinda Harvey was there any discussion of
00:59:43 of contraception um I can't recall today can you recall whether there came a time when you talked about
00:59:56 a time when you talked about contraception um I'm sure sure that we did but I can't recall it did you use contraception um not to the best of my
01:00:09 contraception um not to the best of my recollection was it your understanding that Belinda Harvey
01:00:13 did
01:00:24 yes on this page I'd like to start uh the section that says Hackney London June 19
01:00:27 June 19 1987 one day Bob and I were strolling around Hackney when he suggested we nip into a nearby cafe as we took our seats he told me there was something
01:00:43 urgent that he needed to speak to me about his face looked so solemn that I expected the worst my heart felt like a lead weight we'd been seeing each other
01:00:54 lead weight we'd been seeing each other for over a month and I was blissfully in love with him as he seemed to be with me I'm reading here from the book deep deception in the chapter about Belinda
01:01:08 deception in the chapter about Belinda Harvey what is it I asked slumping down into the chair opposite his it's important Belinda could we go over the
01:01:20 page he looks so serious that I convince myself it must be bad news just say it whatever it is just tell me Belinda he said holding my hands in the space he'd
01:01:33 said holding my hands in the space he'd created between us I want you to promise to be faithful to me and not sleep with anyone else the nervous breath I'd been
01:01:44 anyone else the nervous breath I'd been holding came flooding out of my lungs as a sigh of relief was that all of course I insisted however Bob didn't give me a chance to reply because he hadn't finished I don't want to get
01:02:01 he hadn't finished I don't want to get HIV he added bluntly not even looking me in the eye what I gasped I waited for
01:02:13 in the eye what I gasped I waited for him to laugh and say it had been a joke only he didn't he was deadly serious we can stop there do you recall a conversation uh of that
01:02:24 uh of that nature with Belinda Harvey
01:02:35 nature with Belinda Harvey well more than not recalling it um I I I feel
01:02:38 feel certain that I did not say that
01:02:48 um when you say not say that did you have a conversation about monogamy
01:03:07 um I really I can't begin to think that I would both in terms of just you know being uh Bob Robinson
01:03:11 Robinson but
01:03:18 but um it it just doesn't ring true to me Belinda Harvey was under the
01:03:29 me Belinda Harvey was under the impression that she was in a loving monogamous relationship with you did you give a grounds to have that
01:03:37 understanding
01:03:40 um well yes um I think
01:03:45 um you know that I I I think that
01:03:56 um in in the LI in terms of the life of in the life of Bob
01:04:08 of in the life of Bob Robinson um no question um I I was not having a sexual relationship with you know Bob Robinson was not
01:04:27 with you know Bob Robinson was not having a sexual relationship with anyone um but her uh um and you know um we
01:04:29 we um I think we but we would I it's just this this conversation I I I would never I it it seems wholly implausible that I
01:04:51 I it it seems wholly implausible that I would want to sit sit down with her I've got something important to tell you and then this is it and then in particular the fact you know I don't want to get HIV I mean well look I don't know how it just for me [Music]
01:05:03 [Music] um it just doesn't seem it doesn't seem like as I
01:05:22 seem it doesn't seem like as I remember Bob Robinson because um anyway I'm sorry I I just don't think this conversation in the way that it's reported on this page I don't think I certainly don't recall it and
01:05:33 think I certainly don't recall it and and I just can't think uh that that it would
01:05:34 would have taken
01:05:41 place in 1987 HIV and AIDS were a very big
01:05:55 1987 HIV and AIDS were a very big concern weren't they um yes it was the era before there were any effective treatment
01:06:04 well yes to the best of my recollection there were major public health
01:06:07 health campaigns aimed at reducing its spread weren't there yes it would have been an entirely natural topic of conversation wouldn't
01:06:18 wouldn't it um well um it's the context that's important um I know
01:06:36 context that's important um I know what you know I I know yet I agree with you about the period but um none of which
01:06:43 which um none of which convinces me that that this conversation took
01:06:51 place did you ask Belinda Harvey to be faithful to you well not not that um not that I can recall um no might you have done so in
01:07:07 um no might you have done so in furtherance of a romantic relationship with
01:07:14 her well I can't you know it's it's it's possible but it doesn't quite I don't think so in one of your earlier answers you made clear that you at least gave the impression
01:07:34 at least gave the impression that Bob Robinson was being faithful to Belinda Harvey is that fair
01:07:35 fair yes and the truth on your account would be that that wasn't true
01:07:55 wasn't true because you had a wife and two children at home didn't you oh yes I yes that's that's why I made the distinction yeah and were you in fact also still sleeping at least occasionally with Jackie no I'm absolutely
01:08:08 Jackie no I'm absolutely certain that that was not the
01:08:19 case on any view you are being hypocritical weren't you yes if well I
01:08:33 hypocritical weren't you yes if well I mean clearly you know uh of course every every step of the way of course but um in terms of for what it's worth I'm not saying it's worth much but just for the record uh and again
01:08:57 record uh and again it you know well it's just as I remember the life I led as Bob Robinson that that my sexual relationship with with Jackie had ended um
01:09:06 ended um before um this relationship started in seeking Fidelity from Belinda Harvey in the era
01:09:19 Harvey in the era of H untreatable HIV AIDS
01:09:29 HIV AIDS were you thinking only of your own well-being and not of Belinda
01:09:42 well-being and not of Belinda Harvey well you know I don't accept that I was um I I can't really accept this um account what other explanation is there
01:09:55 there um I'm sorry an explanation for seeking Fidelity well I don't I'm I don't accept um that that's what I was
01:10:13 doing did you tell Belinda Harvey that you were 29 years old I I'm sure I wouldn't have done that because
01:10:22 because um the
01:10:25 um the you know the um the creation and the maintenance of Bob
01:10:40 of Bob Robinson's life and presence was you know
01:10:41 know absolute
01:10:48 absolute um from day one I I was the age uh let's say uh you know that basically there wasn't a great deal of difference between Bob Robinson's um
01:11:06 difference between Bob Robinson's um age and Bob Lamberts they in terms of a record um and um I always I always wanted to stick to that from from day one I you know
01:11:22 that from from day one I you know discussed it and all the way through it was like a fundamental thing I would never have said to anyone uh that I was a different
01:11:34 anyone uh that I was a different age it's Belinda Harvey's evidence that you did tell her that you were 29 are you
01:11:36 you sure well you're not mistaken about that well I can't obviously I can't recall um con any conversations with her where when I
01:11:54 conversations with her where when I discuss my age I I can just be you know reasonably sure that inev you know I it's one of those things I had to be uh consistent I had a a cover story for everyone else um everyone that knew
01:12:10 everyone else um everyone that knew me though you know and some knew me closely
01:12:27 closely and um no one thought I was 29 not that uh everyone's sort of paying close attention to my exact age but um I I had to be you know consistent um it doesn't make sense to me you were 35 years old
01:12:39 make sense to me you were 35 years old when you met Belinda Harvey weren't you um
01:12:40 um yes she was 24
01:12:56 24 yes that is a very big age Gap isn't it yes representing yourself to be 20 9 would improve your prospects of successfully seducing Belinda Harvey wouldn't
01:13:02 wouldn't it
01:13:04 it um well what can I say I I I would have had no reason um to do that um
01:13:22 that um we um we were attracted to each other I don't think her age or my age um entered into it and I don't
01:13:34 um entered into it and I don't believe um I don't believe that I seduced
01:13:35 seduced her I believe that we
01:13:40 we our
01:13:49 our relationship was built on uh friendship and mutual attraction
01:14:10 all four of the women with whom you had sex during the course of your deployment in your undercover identity were in their early 20s weren't they yes why was that um I don't think I can't think now of any
01:14:19 of any [Music]
01:14:21 [Music] um any re any reason why it's the reality that you were praying on young
01:14:31 on young women
01:14:38 women um I'm absolutely certain uh that that wasn't the
01:14:54 case is there any positive reason that you would like to advance to the inquiry as to why all of them were so much younger than you
01:15:04 um there's nothing today that I can uh think of uh to add
01:15:06 add that sexual gratification perhaps no I wouldn't add that as a mo
01:15:17 perhaps no I wouldn't add that as a mo that was not a motivating factor at all in
01:15:19 in the
01:15:22 the um the the for the forming of this um
01:15:35 relationship Belinda Harvey was not a political activist was she
01:15:37 she um no um at the at the initial when we
01:15:49 um no um at the at the initial when we first met because um I knew that it was I knew that the where we met it had um there was an animal right connection now my thought was that it was an animal
01:16:07 my thought was that it was an animal rights type event I certainly went there with my with animal rights um friends um it if
01:16:22 um it if it if it was indeed a party organized by an animal rights person then you know I I when I first met her I probably thought that she you know had some may have had
01:16:30 have had some uh
01:16:32 some uh connection um to animal rights but um beyond that
01:16:45 um to animal rights but um beyond that um yes I I once I got to know her then yes
01:16:51 yes um you know she was not um an activist
01:16:53 activist uh let
01:17:00 correct she when you got to know her it became clear to you didn't it that she was first of all a graduate of Lancaster University yes who had made her way from her home in the Northwest uh from her
01:17:19 her home in the Northwest uh from her family home in the Northwest to seek her fortune in London yes and that she was working for the central electricity generating board yes and she was on a career path uh to become an accountant
01:17:32 accountant yes not activist
01:17:37 material um
01:17:46 no could we take that down please could we have up 1 35081
01:18:02 at uh this is your witness statement for the inquiry page 189
01:18:16 please on this page uh is your evidence about meeting Belinda Harvey paragraph
01:18:26 331 I met Belinda Harvey at a social Gathering in organized by the squatting Community around about May 1987 I
01:18:37 Community around about May 1987 I attended the event with Al colleagues as part of my role that was the beginning of a friendship that developed into a sexual
01:18:39 sexual relationship subsequently uh in fact as we have been through the truth is that it developed immediately from right from the start it
01:18:56 immediately from right from the start it was um there was a sexual freeong and it became a sexual relationship immediately well not not immediately but from um you know from what you've the
01:19:10 from um you know from what you've the letter uh that you've shown me that um you know that certainly um gives me some
01:19:24 certainly um gives me some clarity uh which I didn't have um two years ago when I made the statement could we have 332 up
01:19:36 please the sexual relationship with Belinda Harvey started a few weeks after the
01:19:38 the event that's not true is it it was quicker than that um it would certainly seem now um that it you
01:19:53 seem now um that it you know seems to have started earlier but that was my recollection two years ago um without really having anything apart
01:20:10 anything apart from my memory to um to go by I mean if it if in fact it started I mean it may looks maybe it
01:20:21 started I mean it may looks maybe it started uh a few days a a week after it wasn't it wasn't at the event um it looks like from from that letter I sent it seems likely that it
01:20:34 it seems likely that it started maybe you know a week after so I mean I think my recollection two years ago is not far wrong is it could we have 333
01:20:54 please I did not ever live with Belinda Harvey we'll be coming back to that I spent time at her home initially in Hackney and later in Forest Gate in Hackney she lived in a squat with her friends and I stayed overnight there regularly well we've
01:21:06 regularly well we've already had your evidence as to the status of the property it's certainly right isn't it that you did stay overnight regularly uh once the relationship had
01:21:18 relationship had begun um yes yes and I mean just going back to you know in hack she lived in a squat I
01:21:26 squat I mean you know I I would have had some reason for thinking that um and now when I look back on it you know the
01:21:42 it you know the there that was certainly that was the appearance you know I I had some um experience but I'm not going I can't you know certainly I can't be sure and was it in fact 86 Marie Park
01:21:58 was it in fact 86 Marie Park Road I beg your pardon sorry was it in fact 86 marjerie Park Road oh no was living no no no marjerie par road is Forest
01:22:10 Forest Gate Hackney it's in the this is where I thought the where where she was living when I first met her Hackney but in the Stanford Hill area that where it says in Hackney I think you know I thought at
01:22:25 Hackney I think you know I thought at the time that the property was a squat I mean nothing hangs on that and I'm I'm perfectly willing to accept that it was other some you know shared accommodation paragraph sorry paragraph
01:22:44 334 the commencement and continuation of my relationship with Belinda Harvey was not in any way influenced by my tasking I was not tasked to form a close relationship with her for the purposes
01:22:56 relationship with her for the purposes of of gathering intelligence that's true isn't it yes we met because she was connected to my target group but I did not become involved in any way because I
01:23:07 not become involved in any way because I thought the relationship would assist me in my cover role she was not connected
01:23:18 in my cover role she was not connected with your target group was she well what I meant was that we met because I was I was working as I
01:23:33 was I was working as I was Bob Robinson I was attending what what I accept now was a party with I think I've said you know let's say animal rights um friends
01:23:39 friends um that there were certainly if if the account that it was a
01:23:47 a party uh hosted by some someone in the animal rights movement then you you know I would have known um people there um so that that
01:24:02 known um people there um so that that that's all I mean by the connection I was there with my people in my target group um we can we can take that down
01:24:23 now because you came to know Belinda Harvey very well indeed you must have known by 2022 when you made this statement that Belinda Harvey had not in
01:24:34 statement that Belinda Harvey had not in fact been connected to your target group yes it was um I I mean what I meant by that was that
01:24:42 that um the
01:24:48 um the connection there was for me okay let's it was badly worded my mistake why in 2022 I are you still portraying Belinda Harvey as living in a squat and being connected to animal
01:25:01 squat and being connected to animal rights activists I'm sorry I didn't catch up why in 2022 are you still portraying Belinda Harvey as living in a squat and an animal rights
01:25:14 living in a squat and an animal rights activist no I that again I if I can I'd need to have it back on the screen I don't think well we've just been through all four
01:25:31 all four paragraphs okay well um it was not it was not any I was not deliberately meaning to say um
01:25:40 say um that she you know it was a connection of kind I'm not saying she was an activist I'm there was clearly a some a connection that brought us together you know we were both invited by we're both attending the same
01:25:52 attending the same party um
01:25:58 party um which at the very least you know was some kind of animal rights
01:26:05 rights um event or gathering you're giving the impression in 2022 that she has a connection and you will have it we'll have it back up again
01:26:22 35081 so you can see the exact wording right at the bottom of the page we met because she was connected to my target group
01:26:29 she had nothing to do with either London Greenpeace or the AL did she no no uh we
01:26:45 met yes and well it was at night that was my sort of honest honest mistake I did not um did not intend to suggest that she you know she was
01:27:00 suggest that she you know she was actually she wasn't part of my target group there was a kind of connection though we why we met I mean it was a a kind of you know we we
01:27:14 um what the reason why you were still so portraying Belinda Harvey in 2022 to try and diminish sympathy for
01:27:27 2022 to try and diminish sympathy for her no certainly not and I'm I'm here today to uh clarify that absolutely can we take that down now
01:27:42 absolutely can we take that down now please Mr tamaine has described your relationship with Belinda Harvey as a great love affair to a close friend of Belinda Harvey did it look like that
01:28:02 Harvey did it look like that um yes it it it may well have done Y and for Belinda Harvey it was just that wasn't
01:28:04 wasn't it
01:28:12 um yes but not for
01:28:20 you um well
01:28:32 I was I was um first and foremost um first and foremost I I was um emotionally involved I was emotionally attached
01:28:48 attached um you were going home to your wife and children in between spending time as Bob Robinson I
01:29:03 was Belinda Harvey gave evidence that the relationship throughout its duration was always intense an intense intimate and sexual
01:29:19 intense an intense intimate and sexual relationship is that right um well look I my recollection would be
01:29:20 be um more on you know
01:29:33 know certainly romantic um but not intense I I I think it was um you know involved
01:29:40 involved humor
01:29:49 humor um friendship not I think a light sort of I don't remember it [Music]
01:29:55 [Music] being intense as such I I think it was um certainly very uh affectionate and um very very warm
01:30:05 warm um very
01:30:10 um very comforting Bob Robinson was the perfect boyfriend wasn't he
01:30:14 he um well um you know Bob Robinson was kind and considerate but I don't think
01:30:27 think not not perhaps int not intense
01:30:32 intense really you went to a number of concerts together didn't you um yes RM Peter Gabriel squeeze I can't remember precisely
01:30:49 but and you were offering Belinda Harvey a
01:30:51 Harvey a dream a dream of a life partner um well I don't think I don't think I was offering her a dream of a of a life
01:31:11 her a dream of a of a life partner did you give any thought to the fact that you were playing with her emotions
01:31:14 emotions um no
01:31:16 um no I um I I don't think I gave thought to that
01:31:26 um that Prospect um
01:31:34 obviously obviously I I I should have done
01:31:36 done I I think I um believed that it was
01:31:49 that it was a an affectionate romantic relationship but
01:31:55 um obviously I knew that it would that it would come to an end and um you know I hoped I think I hope that
01:32:10 um you know I hoped I think I hope that um she would be able to look back on it um fondly of um um and and um not um not
01:32:24 um not suffer uh not suffer greatly from it I
01:32:29 from it I obviously hoped that she would never find out that I was um in fact um an undercover police officer um
01:32:44 um but she did not know that it was going to end did she not no not um no not not until um
01:32:54 until um um late um late in
01:33:03 1988 how did it make you feel to be in this
01:33:10 this relationship um well it was um you know it was um a very
01:33:16 um a very warm
01:33:21 warm um comforting sort of emotionally um
01:33:25 you know a very
01:33:32 um you know yes it was a
01:33:40 um a good um a good place to be yeah the fact that you knew the reality and she did not did that give you a sense of power and control over her
01:33:57 sense of power and control over her well no I I honestly don't think that was the case I think I was
01:34:10 was the case I think I was um I was able to in at least you know in some way I was a i' grown accustomed to
01:34:13 to compartmentalizing two lives I know it was not doing me any good um but at the time
01:34:24 time I I could do that I could
01:34:37 I I could do that I could um wasn't doing her any good either was it no well um not as as things have turned out no can we move now to
01:34:47 TBS did you tell Belinda Harvey that Jackie had tricked you into faring TBS or anything like
01:35:07 faring TBS or anything like that no this is something again that I can be absolutely certain about um I cared um
01:35:09 cared um deeply about TBS I cared deeply about Jackie and um again how I felt privately as Bob
01:35:29 again how I felt privately as Bob Lambert was wholly in accord with how Bob Robinson felt and acted you know part obvious reasons but there are still important points because even if no one
01:35:44 important points because even if no one ever believes me when I talk about how I felt personally as as Bob Lambert then okay well don't believe me but listen as Bob Robinson again if I had said to
01:36:00 Bob Robinson again if I had said to anyone um Belinda included if I had said oh um
01:36:02 oh um that and and of course I wouldn't another reason because it wasn't even it wasn't true if IID said look that Jackie she tricked me and um you know spoke I
01:36:15 she tricked me and um you know spoke I think I'm quoted as being very sort of dismissive of her I mean that that kind of talk in my circles was completely
01:36:26 of talk in my circles was completely unacceptable it was quite the circle was ahead of its time um today we take it for granted that um you know men being
01:36:51 for granted that um you know men being dismissive of Partners men not you know well but in in those days the people I was around were Pioneers in you know asserting uh or calling out you know any uh male Behavior which was disparaging
01:37:11 uh male Behavior which was disparaging of Partners and so um it's just totally implausible and out of my out of character that I would have um uh spoken of Jackie um in any disparaging
01:37:32 way did you tell Simon ter pain uh that Jackie had tricked you into faring TBS or anything of that sort
01:37:50 no what is your evidence as to how uh what you told Belinda Harvey about the circumstances in which TBS came to be born um
01:37:54 born um well the
01:37:56 well the um I
01:37:58 um I mean the there was [Music]
01:38:08 um well it's difficult to recall I I I but I guess um did I give one at all I had um everyone
01:38:23 had um everyone everyone everyone in in my circle um and let's not forget that for whatever reason um you know we
01:38:34 um you know we and sorry let's not forget that one way or another that Belinda you know was was meeting people in my circle I mean we read
01:38:48 in my circle I mean we read um um Robin Lane's testimony and you know he says he you know wasn't interested in meeting me but he
01:39:02 interested in meeting me but he he he enjoyed meeting Belinda but the point is that um everyone knew um as and we know it from the
01:39:13 um as and we know it from the photographs we've seen everyone knew that I was the father of
01:39:15 of um of um a young um person um
01:39:28 young um person um and and everyone knew that I cared deeply about him that I I did my best um that I that I helped
01:39:42 helped Jackie um in ways that Mr lamber if I got to stop you there nobody is suggesting that you didn't care deeply about TBS or that you
01:39:54 about TBS or that you weren't as an act in your activist Persona a good father to
01:40:05 TBS what I'm exploring is what you said to Belinda Harvey about the circumstances in which TBS had came to be born well just very simply um you
01:40:20 be born well just very simply um you know I I used I used to I used to go out with uh Jackie um um she
01:40:39 um she became pregnant I um it wasn't from my perspective um it wasn't planned um but
01:40:42 um but um that end of I mean I I wouldn't have you know made an issue of it um
01:40:59 did you tell Belinda Harvey that your relationship with Jackie had only lasted a couple of months um well I no not I can't recall what did you say to belenda
01:41:10 recall what did you say to belenda Harvey about your relationship with
01:41:22 Jackie um I I can't recall today all I can say is that I would have and I would have
01:41:29 have told her as as it was and both in terms of
01:41:36 of um in terms of um my my son um um
01:41:45 um um because well both into my son um and and obviously the fact what would have been important of course was you know what was the present situation and I think the present
01:41:56 situation and I think the present situation around here I think it's pretty clear that by at this point in time um
01:42:11 time um Jackie uh has moved to um dagam
01:42:12 dagam um we are we are certainly on my account my recollection
01:42:23 certainly on my account my recollection we're we're not having a sexual relation relationship anymore um I'm going over to see Jackie
01:42:38 anymore um I'm going over to see Jackie and my son quite regularly and at quite an early stage I can clearly recall
01:42:40 recall um
01:42:42 um arriving at um Belinda's
01:42:51 Belinda's flat by this time she's in Forest Gate and
01:42:53 Gate and I can
01:42:55 I can recall um
01:43:01 recall um arriving with my son and in introducing
01:43:12 and in introducing him uh to Belinda and I think other of her sort of housemates I think were there I can picture
01:43:22 that both Simon Tain and Belinda Harvey say that you told them that Jackie had tricked you did you say that to try and Garner
01:43:33 Garner sympathy oh that they I didn't quite catch him that you that Jackie had tricked you did you say that to Garner
01:43:54 tricked you did you say that to Garner sympathy well I didn't say it so did you uh tell Belinda Harvey that you'd had a short relationship with Jackie so that it did not complicate your romance with her um I would have no I I would have told her you know as it was the
01:44:15 told her you know as it was the important thing was that it was a sexual relationship that had ended I can't recall the you know the chronology but I can be certain of that
01:44:33 did you tell Belinda Harvey that you had co-written the leaflet what's wrong with McDonald's um well I can't recall now um the you know I can't rule
01:44:47 know I can't rule out using that phrase I I may well have done um you know I stand by the evidence I gave you
01:44:59 know I stand by the evidence I gave you yesterday about my role in it but um but the fact that I um was
01:45:05 I um was um you know well was it you just read out some evidence from I think was it from Belinda
01:45:18 from Belinda saying arriving in my bedsit in Hackney for the first time and seeing what's wrong with McDonald's leaflet so yeah I I I was you know I was never far
01:45:33 know I was never far from such those leaflets I I was very sort of in in Bob Robinson's as Bob Robinson why wouldn't I be and and
01:45:50 Robinson why wouldn't I be and and um I I I always had them um I think for a while I did I think it's quite seems quite plausible to me that I you know
01:46:01 quite plausible to me that I you know may have wanted to have claim a bit more credit for it than actually I deserved and I think that that sort of stayed with me uh a bit that you know but I none of which I can recall
01:46:15 none of which I can recall clearly did you give the impression to Simon
01:46:22 Simon ter that you had been significantly involved in the production of that leaflet
01:46:26 leaflet um well I can't recall I'm sorry might you have done so yes well to yes
01:46:49 yes we've been dealing with the first few mainly with the first few months of your relationship with Belinda Harvey in that period did you tell any SDS man about that relationship um no I'm sure that I
01:47:05 relationship um no I'm sure that I didn't did you tell any of your fellow uos about that relationship um I'm pretty pretty sure that I
01:47:17 that I didn't did any of your managers nevertheless know about it um not not that I can recall did any of your
01:47:35 recall did any of your UC colleagues nevertheless know about it um
01:47:36 um well I can't recall anything um anything at the time
01:47:53 um anything at the time no and did you keep it from them because you knew that what you were doing was completely wrong
01:48:08 um I didn't have the sense that it was completely wrong um but I
01:48:20 was completely wrong um but I did I must I must have had the sense that I had you know gone against
01:48:26 against um the sort um the the sort of the advice uh that I'd had
01:48:45 um early on I I I think and I am just to be clear dealing with early on will come to who knew later on that's another point in your evidence yes
01:48:56 was it the case that you thought that your managers and colleagues wouldn't mind at all but you didn't want to put your managers in an awkward situation well I
01:49:09 situation well I think yes
01:49:15 um I I obviously had experience of this the you know the sense that I had to manage things but I also must at the
01:49:39 manage things but I also must at the back of my mind at least had those sort of words of advice about you know not get not to get emotionally involved um but
01:49:49 um but um um but equally you know I sort of got used to
01:49:50 used to the the other imperative of of you know forming close friendships
01:50:03 forming close friendships and although well yeah and then the difficulty when um you know when um that sort of friendship
01:50:16 friendship um
01:50:18 um became um
01:50:23 became um sexual would have been awkward for your managers wouldn't it because they wouldn't have wanted to report you but that is what they should have done um well you know I can't speak for
01:50:38 done um well you know I can't speak for them but I can where from today today's perspective um I can understand that because that's
01:50:49 can understand that because that's exactly what happened when you did speak to di Barber about Jackie wasn't it um in effect yeah I've been
01:50:58 I've been using managers in an aggregate sense you did say yesterday to me uh when I was pursuing a similar line of
01:51:12 of questioning about knowledge of your relationship um with RLC that uh some managers and some colleagues would have disapproved
01:51:24 have disapproved uh I would be very careful about anonymity and writing down the nominal of anyone who is not um an open
01:51:35 not um an open officer please could you tell us which managers and which officers you had in
01:51:48 managers and which officers you had in mind when you said that there were some who would have
01:52:04 who would have disapproved well what prompt Ed me to say that yesterday was evidence that I've read from from this inquiry um
01:52:06 um um you know and I'm I'm sure I've only scratched the surface of that you know I haven't had time but um I I've read
01:52:21 haven't had time but um I I've read um you know and it's very impactful um I've read it from former field officers that's to say undercover officers
01:52:34 undercover officers um um I mean you you will know you will have
01:52:36 have probably um receive their thoughts directly yeah we have their evidence sir would that be a convenient time to take the morning break yes we're about to
01:52:54 the morning break yes we're about to change topics so we not yes and then certainly it would be 15 minute break all
01:53:21 rise
02:12:50 e e
02:13:35 thank you sir uh just before we move to deams uh could I ask you uh a little bit more about the attitude of your managers to sexual
02:13:42 sexual relationships uh did you have any idea what detective inspector Docker View of sexual
02:13:55 inspector Docker View of sexual relationships with members of the public in a
02:13:56 in a uci's undercover identity was I no I've got no clear recollection of anything of
02:14:10 of anything of hearing anything from him on on that
02:14:17 subject what do you think his reaction would have been um
02:14:32 I it's hard hard to recall same questions for hn 109 yes
02:14:36 109 yes um and
02:14:39 um and um
02:14:41 um it's certainly at excuse me at some
02:14:57 at excuse me at some point in this year around and around this time I think he he uh did become part of the management team um and well I
02:15:03 well I think yeah I think both at the time and OB I have read some
02:15:18 both at the time and OB I have read some of his um a transcript statement and but more importantly at the time I think I would have anticipated
02:15:23 um um some um you
02:15:32 disapproval a disciplinarian
02:15:37 yes Bob Robinson Autumn
02:15:49 1986 by that stage is it right that you are portraying yourself as a passionate enthusiastic animal rights
02:16:03 enthusiastic animal rights activist approving of the ongoing campaign of Al attacks yeah this is um the date again Autumn
02:16:13 Autumn 86
02:16:18 86 yes up to and including the use of improvised incendiary devic prices uh against targets considered to be in the fur trade
02:16:35 yes can you recall a
02:16:42 recall a meeting in the L London Greenpeace office
02:16:44 office possibly late
02:16:57 1986 when you are discussing direct action in a general sense
02:17:02 sense against uh what those you were mixing would consider to be animal
02:17:11 abusers well I can I can recall sort of you know
02:17:13 you know ongoing
02:17:16 ongoing um
02:17:17 um meetings
02:17:22 meetings um in in that office [Music]
02:17:24 [Music] um I mean I could um I think around that time um and well let's
02:17:43 think around that time um and well let's see first of all who I mean right it's a very it's a very small office um you know in ter I mean meetings I think there's always ongoing conversations in there but I don't think you're ever going to get more than four or five
02:17:59 going to get more than four or five people in there yeah may only have been a small number of people yeah well I I can think of lots of situations where there's a group discussion around that time I mean what I would
02:18:14 time I mean what I would um want to say briefly if I may is that around that time um those sort of discussions are invar
02:18:26 um those sort of discussions are invar uh Jeff Shephard and Paul grabbit would would be present now um both Jeff Shepard and Paul gravit were
02:18:36 were supportive of the role that I was then carving out for myself there was no sort of secret about it
02:18:47 of secret about it um
02:18:52 um I you know I wanted want to help um but I wanted to help in the ways that you you know I was known for on the one hand to be um
02:19:11 to be um helpful um in terms of driving um people um but equally to try and help um in terms of uh prisoner support um I was
02:19:26 terms of uh prisoner support um I was well look sorry let me try and develop that just a little bit um if you're going to develop it I'm interested in direct action yeah but I'm but I'm
02:19:40 direct action yeah but I'm but I'm interested in clarifying now that both Jeff Shephard and um Paul gravit were you know I I discuss things we
02:19:58 were you know I I discuss things we discuss things together I you know I was not a leader um they knew very well um that at that time um you know I lacked confidence to um
02:20:07 um lead discussions and that they they knew you know what what my uh strengths
02:20:18 knew you know what what my uh strengths and weaknesses were and I think they by and
02:20:19 and large I think they were you know they were supportive um and at one point Paul grabit um says well you know when Bob gave me praise
02:20:37 well you know when Bob gave me praise for a leaflet or something you know or I was grateful for Bob's approval but it was it was Mutual uh you know it was I I was grateful for their support in
02:20:48 was grateful for their support in various ways nothing unique about it but we were you know we we were friends and we were supportive each other they knew what I was good at and what I was comfortable with they knew um you know
02:20:59 comfortable with they knew um you know that that what they knew about me about
02:21:11 that that what they knew about me about Bob Robinson um you know it wasn't it it was convincing um it wasn't alien to me I I you know I had no
02:21:23 I I you know I had no prior um skills experience of leading I'd been a follower I'd been
02:21:28 been uh they you know in both in my real life and my assume life I I never LED anything um you know even in the police prior
02:21:41 prior to uh joining the SDS I mean everyone knew that about me you know oh yeah Bob's a nice guy but um you know quite self-conscious at times I could never get up and speak and in fact that stayed with me and um
02:21:58 and in fact that stayed with me and um at the the very first time I met Andrew Clark um at Badgers I had to start speaking about something and I I became
02:22:10 something and I I became very self-conscious everyone knew knew that about me but driving the van helping um I was reliable and you know that was valuable we've seen a lot of that
02:22:24 that in in evidence but you you know really
02:22:29 really they they they you know they weren't looking for me uh to become involved in um criminal activity they they like everyone else in the
02:22:42 they they like everyone else in the movement at the time they they were trying to
02:22:46 trying to create they were trying to deal with the the huge problem that they faced which we were looking at yesterday St that you know Security in that they I think obviously I was doing it for a reason as well I I didn't want to get myself
02:23:06 well I I didn't want to get myself into that kind of situation my managers didn't want me to nothing was without risk but with me
02:23:18 risk but with me developing my my the role that I had and the way that say for example they were helping me um as I said at Cox Barrow fur Farm you know when they handed me the megaphone
02:23:29 know when they handed me the megaphone and I didn't have time to think about it and I probably my first ever bit you know attempt at public speaking well it certainly wasn't charismatic but it was sufficient you know they were helping me
02:23:41 sufficient you know they were helping me and they said well look Bob look you can do that and then and really and the role that I developed or that you know Bob Robinson developed from there
02:23:56 Robinson developed from there on um was was evidence of that um so um
02:24:03 um so um meetings in that office four or five people generally not always but Bob Robinson Paul grabit Jeff Shephard and and others um that was
02:24:20 um that was their understanding of um you know of of what they want what they appreciated about me what they understood about
02:24:35 understood about me so a small group of mutually
02:24:36 mutually supportive nonh hierarchical animal rights activists yes at least two of whom you knew were
02:24:52 yes at least two of whom you knew were committing criminal offenses in the name of the AL
02:25:05 of the AL yes exactly where you wanted to be um well it was of course um and
02:25:13 um and with conf you know reasons to be confident that um that
02:25:24 um that they were support supportive of the role um that I needed to have and that the movement wanted um in an attempt to
02:25:36 attempt to separate
02:25:42 separate um people engaging in serious criminal activity from others who were supporting um and that support side they knew that that's where I sat they
02:25:58 they knew that that's where I sat they knew that's where uh I wanted to try and help it was a difficult problem to
02:26:11 help it was a difficult problem to separate it out because we know for example that Robin Lane uh with a support role uh ended up being convicted um but nevertheless that was the side that my two closest friends in in my
02:26:22 in in my circle you know that they were that's what they were Keen where they Keen they were Keen for me to get that
02:26:38 were Keen for me to get that role which work combined well with my established role of being a reliable
02:26:44 reliable driver could we have up please from file8 at tab 37474 [Music]
02:27:09 019 if we go to the next page please this is a report dated the 7th of April
02:27:23 1987 signed by Chief superintendent McLoud who at that stage is the DCI of the s yes isn't he could we have paragraph two
02:27:30 please animal Liberation Front Al activist Jeff Shepard is currently serving a prison sentence of 30 days
02:27:43 serving a prison sentence of 30 days following his failure to maintain weekly payments relating to a compensation order of
02:27:45 order of £700 imposed by hibury Corner magistrates in 1986 six due to the fact that hm prison Pentonville is
02:27:59 that hm prison Pentonville is overcrowded Shephard has been moved to henden police station where cells are being used to accommodate convicted prisoners do you recall Mr Shephard going to prison for
02:28:11 recall Mr Shephard going to prison for this reason well I I don't recall it but this report you know confirms what my understand that I had that understanding at the time yeah I think you've just described him as one
02:28:30 think you've just described him as one of your closest activist friends so can we assume this came from you yes could we go to the next paragraph
02:28:39 please since his arrest by police in September last year shepher has been hesitant to return to Crime for fear of further surveillance and possible arrest
02:28:56 further surveillance and possible arrest his experience has ACT as a deterrent to others nevertheless he has been showing recently an inclination to resume Al activity and it is anticipated that he will engage in some form of this when he is released he will no doubt return to
02:29:12 is released he will no doubt return to his usual address namely the hury hotel hbur Park N five so not withstanding uh going to
02:29:33 withstanding uh going to prison your assessment of Mr Shephard was that he was inclined to resume activity of an Al kind
02:29:35 kind yes his own evidence was that he was fired up at that time is that a fair description of his strength of feeling
02:29:50 description of his strength of feeling about animal rights and the need for Al style actions um yes probably yeah and to what extent were you
02:30:02 yeah and to what extent were you interacting with Mr Shephard at this time well um just you know regularly meeting both in terms of
02:30:14 regularly meeting both in terms of demonstrations of the kind that we've we've seen um
02:30:22 um uh and me Mee that you know probably most
02:30:23 most regularly
02:30:25 regularly in in
02:30:31 in in um meetings at the London Green Peace Office um and um you know meetings in in the
02:30:46 area did you go and see him in prison um on this on this occasion yes no I'm I think I'd remember if I did I I no
02:31:01 no recollection could we take that down now please um and have up the document from Volume 7 tab 258
02:31:09 [Music]
02:31:22 74277 and if we move to the substantial report thank you uh this is a report dated the 19th of August 1986 so this is outside the Chron chronological sequence and I'm I'm showing you it for a
02:31:40 showing you it for a specific uh purpose uh if we look first at paragraph
02:31:48 two the animal Liberation Front Alf has produced a newsletter entitled interviews with a animal Liberation Front activists the document that we looked at yesterday which has recently been distributed to all fully paid up
02:32:01 been distributed to all fully paid up members of the AL supporters group the 52 page newsletter is a compilation of interviews with several Alf activists and gives General descriptions in some
02:32:17 and gives General descriptions in some detail of all types of Alf activity from paint doring of vivisectors homes to extensive damage caused to anal abuse property by the use of improvised explosive incendiary
02:32:32 explosive incendiary devices if you could take that down now please sorry that that um
02:32:48 paragraph the reference was seven sorry 74 to
02:32:52 74 to seven 74
02:32:54 seven 74 [Music]
02:33:01 Z yeah thank you and then I want to go to paragraph
02:33:10 five submitted with this report is a copy of the newsletter referred to above my purpose in showing you this
02:33:22 above my purpose in showing you this document is to fix in time uh when uh you
02:33:26 you submitted a copy of the newsletter is it right that you submitted a copy of interviews with Al activists in August 1986
02:33:37 1986 yes could we take that down the whole document down now please could we have up
02:33:44 up uh
02:33:47 from fate uh
02:33:53 41074
02:34:08 88 this is a report dated the 9th of June
02:34:16 1987 if we could have paragraph one up first of all please between the six of January 1985 and the 20th of May this year
02:34:28 and the 20th of May this year 46 incendiary device attacks were carried out by members of the ALF and Other Extreme elements within the animal rights movement against
02:34:44 the animal rights movement against targets deemed to be involved in animal abuse none of the actions has resulted to in injury to any person instead
02:34:55 to in injury to any person instead substantial financi cial loss has been sustained mainly by the meat and fur trade the following information concerning the future of this campaign
02:35:07 concerning the future of this campaign of economic sabotage has been received from a secret and reliable source uh before we go any
02:35:18 before we go any further would it be fair to say that the alf's Arsen campaign was a very serious policing challenge
02:35:23 yes could we go to the next paragraph
02:35:34 please details emanating from recent secret meetings between leading Al activists in Manchester Coventry and London strongly suggest that the
02:35:50 London strongly suggest that the manufacturer and use of timed incendiary devices will continue throughout 1987 it is also clear that the 11 actions carried out so far this year are all the responsibility of the AL even
02:36:05 all the responsibility of the AL even though they have not all been claimed and one was claimed by the Vermin Liberation Front future actions will apparently Follow The Familiar pattern
02:36:16 apparently Follow The Familiar pattern of attacks on department stores selling Furs incendies which are intended to activate the sprinkler system inside stores and cause damage by flooding and on meat trade depos lores officers
02:36:29 on meat trade depos lores officers incendies intended to ignite petrol tanks on vehicles or otherwise cause damage by fire so far actions have taken place outside the Metropolitan Police
02:36:47 place outside the Metropolitan Police District although it now seems certain that London will be included in this year's campaign
02:36:56 has this intelligence come from you
02:37:11 you yes how did you obtain this intelligence um you know as a result of the you know the role that I had I mean I'm I'm I'm thinking more the role that um Bob Robinson had it within the movement um now I
02:37:31 the movement um now I I don't no recollection of being at all all three of these meetings but again um
02:37:33 um one how did I get this I mean obviously people are being anyone involved in
02:37:48 being anyone involved in this is wanting to be very um circumspect um um security conscious but I you know I'm trusted um in in I'm always or then I
02:38:08 trusted um in in I'm always or then I was always driving people um to and from meetings um so I'm listening obviously that you know and
02:38:17 and forming forming uh a picture and then in addition I'm reading also reading all the Publications and up to a point I'm you know potentially
02:38:28 potentially um you know Distributing um the uh you know items um booklets and everything else I think I should say I
02:38:45 everything else I think I should say I mean obviously if I if I was when I was Distributing clearly
02:38:48 clearly um you know um Ser documents like the one we just referred to um well i' I'd have to be careful and
02:39:04 um well i' I'd have to be careful and and people could see that I was you know I I always had fencing gardening material available in the van and so if I did have some very
02:39:24 very um sort difficult sensitive documents I I was I could you know um yeah well Bob's reliable and you know I I'm I you know I I proved it um
02:39:36 know I I'm I you know I I proved it um transporting whether it's documents or possibly as as many as as 200 big white laboratory rats um but
02:39:49 200 big white laboratory rats um but whatever it was um you you know that broadly speaking was my sort of agreed well it was let come back I'm not going to talk about management but just within the movement
02:40:04 management but just within the movement this this was what I was valued for the one thing that I was expected or hoped or that people like shepher and gravit
02:40:20 or that people like shepher and gravit were encouraging me to develop was just and I think I did in particularly in 1988 I did sort of develop the confidence to articulate at meetings um you know some of the support needed or the support for this but always you know
02:40:34 support for this but always you know um and I don't think I don't think I
02:40:47 um and I don't think I don't think I ever seriously went went beyond that but I'm sorry I'm running on did you attend a meeting in Manchester with leading people you would describe as leading Al
02:40:58 as leading Al activists um I I you know I can't recall today with certainty which of those three I I I feel that I almost
02:41:09 almost certainly um attended one of them just to be able to report
02:41:21 this the last sentence in that paragraph so far actions have taken place outside the Metropolitan Police District although it now seems certain that
02:41:34 although it now seems certain that London will be included in this year's campaign what were the grounds for your
02:41:39 your certainty well the grounds would be
02:41:41 be exactly the same um in the course of my role
02:41:51 um you know
02:41:54 hearing hearing that
02:42:09 um being careful about privacy restriction orders who was it who was saying that London was going to be included in the forthcoming campaign well you know I I honestly can't recall today uh I [Music]
02:42:25 [Music] who in in who in particular was um was was saying that or um speak you know speaking that and were you
02:42:35 were you supportive of those sentiments well I you know to the extent that it was implicit I you know I don't think I had
02:42:46 think I had to express support by you know it's it's a given I'm I'm I'm trusted and I don't you know
02:42:59 um could we go to paragraph three
02:43:09 please whilst the ALF has no formal leadership there is no doubt that the views of the imprisoned Ronnie Lee and Viv Smith continue to influence the tactics of most Alf activ activists
02:43:25 tactics of most Alf activ activists specifically Viv Smith has made it known that during the course of a prison visit by privacy actions against Department by her close friend privacy actions against department stores selling Furs should apparently continue
02:43:37 selling Furs should apparently continue during the summer months notwithstanding the fact that furs are generally not stopped until the Autumn this advice appeals to activists on two
02:43:50 appeals to activists on two grounds firstly it would put pressure on stores to review their policy before taking delivery of new Furs for the autumn and winter secondly it is judged activists would be less likely to attract the attention of store detectives when planting
02:44:01 detectives when planting devices in the summer is a source of this intelligence the same as you have just
02:44:13 just described um well yes uh to the best of my recollection today uh but the intelligence message that you are reporting is that the campaigns coming in the
02:44:25 in the summer
02:44:26 summer yes and you go on at paragraph four accordingly it may be appropriate
02:44:41 four accordingly it may be appropriate to review the type and construction of Alf timed incendiary devices and the method of planting
02:44:54 method of planting them uh if we can zoom in that par take that paragraph down thank you you will see on that right hand page there is then a section about construction and under that a section on the method of planting if you wish to
02:45:14 the method of planting if you wish to refresh your memory you are very welcome the question I am going to ask you is whether the principal source of this information was the leaflet you had submitted in August 96 interviews with Al activists perhaps we could have the right hand page um blown
02:45:33 up the the one that's on the right page three
02:45:39 please yes so it's just the one page on the
02:45:40 the screen thank you
02:45:58 yes I that would you know that would seem to be the case uh if we go over the
02:46:07 page could we look at paragraph five
02:46:16 please recent arrests and charges made in connection with devices plan Ed in department stores in South Wales earlier this year have reminded activists that
02:46:27 this year have reminded activists that police inquiries into these matters tend to be thorough equally after the trial of Lee Smith Roger Yates and others at
02:46:41 of Lee Smith Roger Yates and others at Sheffield Crown Court earlier this year they are under no Illusions about the level of sentencing to expect in the event of a subsequent conviction accordingly the use of incendiary devices is restricted to the most DED iated activists who are forced to
02:46:55 iated activists who are forced to observe strict Security even amongst their comrades in the animal rights movement such activists always pay due regard to the prospect of surveillance and
02:47:08 and infiltration even though they may not always be expert at countering
02:47:22 it taking this intelligence with the intelligence we looked at a moment ago to the effect that there was an imminent summer IID campaign coming to London that very much
02:47:39 London that very much focuses your mission doesn't it you your mission is to obtain intelligence to disrupt is that right um yes yes indeed
02:47:58 that right um yes yes indeed and if possible provide intelligence which might assist an evidential investigation
02:48:06 um well at the let's be clear you know at the
02:48:11 at the time that I'm writing this um I have no experience uh of um
02:48:23 experience uh of um you know any SDS officer uh
02:48:33 uh um um sort of you know being um
02:48:39 um expect well let's put no I'm not quite getting it
02:48:49 um well okay and the the role the SDS officer role uh I
02:49:01 the the role the SDS officer role uh I mean it was so ingrained that it was an intelligence uh Gathering role that would that was never intended um to be used evidentially I mean and more to the
02:49:17 evidentially I mean and more to the point in my experience and in every field officer's experience up to that point never had been never had been so I mean there was you know I don't think I'd
02:49:31 don't think I'd really focus my mind on um on
02:49:35 um on that um
02:49:39 that um requirement what was the purpose of your intelligence then well as it as it always was um to
02:49:50 um to provide um intelligence for cquad if like I mean the one the one experience that I had we've looked at
02:50:01 experience that I had we've looked at which was when I provided intelligence that to the best of my re recollection played a significant part in the disruption of the Wickam
02:50:23 disruption of the Wickam raid um but um that that that was my only experience but at no point did that
02:50:24 that [Music]
02:50:26 [Music] um at no point did that ever you know there was never any suggestion that my intelligence was going to be
02:50:48 that my intelligence was going to be used evidentially the the question never never arose and equally I mean I don't think ES
02:50:49 think ES SDS field officers I don't think SDS field officers were sort of put under the sort of pressure that perhaps uh an undercover
02:51:02 perhaps uh an undercover officer working in the Crim criminal field the sorry the organized crime field might be under you know that look this is your target I mean mine was a longterm intelligence gathering
02:51:19 longterm intelligence gathering operation this was my target I I I think it is important of of course this intelligence would would Place demands upon me upon other field officers uh
02:51:32 upon me upon other field officers uh deployed in field but but there is quite a big distinction I think to be made concentrating on the last two sentences of paragraph
02:51:44 sentences of paragraph five would it be fair to say that what you are
02:51:46 you are communicating there is this this is a hard target to crack they are security conscious they know they're going to prison for a long time if they get
02:52:04 prison for a long time if they get caught and they are on the lookout for infiltrators um I'm I'm again not for the first time I'm highlighting their
02:52:15 the first time I'm highlighting their their objective that their awareness of their awareness of of having proven time and time again to be um lacking when it came to being as
02:52:31 lacking when it came to being as security conscious as as they needed to be um they were and I I you know I would have been reporting on PE sort of people's
02:52:45 reporting on PE sort of people's reactions concerns um because really the police generally um and maybe you know the SDS is a small part of that but the the number of arrests and
02:52:56 but the the number of arrests and convictions um was steadily mounting so yeah they they understood that they
02:53:09 so yeah they they understood that they needed to be better and I do believe in a small way that the role that fellow uh you know activists the way that
02:53:22 that they saw me being able to help overcome this uh well I I'll leave it there I I think that that you know they needed um yes they needed to um be more security
02:53:40 yes they needed to um be more security conscious but uh then you know they may be still struggling to achieve their objective as you say not very expert at it
02:53:48 it one of the fundamental security precautions which they took was to work in small cells wasn't it or
02:54:02 wasn't it or Alone um yes could we go to paragraph six
02:54:15 please attention will continue to be paid to known leading Al actors AC ists
02:54:27 paid to known leading Al actors AC ists both in London and the home counties and any indication of planned incendiary device attacks will be reported
02:54:32 reported immediately can you help us with whether this is what you wrote when you submitted your draft report or whether this is an observation that has been uh added or an assurance which has been
02:54:49 added or an assurance which has been added by those who comp completed the report in the front office yeah my you know my recollection of SDS reporting which has been hugely
02:55:05 of SDS reporting which has been hugely stimulated in well particularly the last two years
02:55:12 two years um that that does not at all read like being part of my own uh report how however strictly
02:55:28 own uh report how however strictly speaking as you can see the uh quotation marks indicate that it is so I I can't recall now but um it could be you know it could be added on is the
02:55:44 be you know it could be added on is the um we've seen one report where there's a a preamble which is clearly not my intelligence but but with the quotation mark um so if we assume for the purposes of my
02:55:55 so if we assume for the purposes of my next question that the fact that it is within the quotation marks suggests that it did come from you yes is this
02:56:11 it did come from you yes is this assuring you is this you assuring your SDS managers that you are going to be paying close attention to London's leading Al activists yes it could be that or it could be
02:56:22 that or it could be managers
02:56:28 managers reassuring the customer on um cquad and in practice given the mutually supportive nonh hierarchical small group of activists that you have
02:56:40 that you have infiltrated that means a particular concentration on Mr Shephard and Mr grait
02:56:53 grait I think first and foremost um for me and my managers it meant
02:56:58 meant um it meant you
02:57:05 know operational security
02:57:16 operational security um you know I think yes to I mean basically Bob you know just you know carry on um and um you know it it it could
02:57:26 could not sort of
02:57:40 not sort of um it it couldn't if it couldn't afford to prompt prompt any sort of different behavior on my part but yes obviously
02:57:42 obviously um I would continue um with my role yeah and am I right that that involved a
02:57:58 and am I right that that involved a particular concentration on Mr gravit and Mr Shephard well nothing more particular um than hither to and I can take it from the answer you've just given you were most
02:58:11 you've just given you were most certainly talking to your managers about these
02:58:19 these developments yes this is a big deal isn't it IID campaign coming to London
02:58:22 London yes and your managers would have wanted a result I think no I honestly think that is going too far that seems to me it
02:58:38 is going too far that seems to me it might make perfect sense in in the world of criminal investigation c not not not
02:58:50 of criminal investigation c not not not on the SDS um you know oh there must be must get a result no it it didn't work like that um and you would have wanted to obtain
02:59:02 to obtain intelligence that assisted with policing the forthcoming campaign um yes you are giving your professional life to this working
02:59:17 professional life to this working undercover to get precisely the sort of intelligence uh that has come into sharp Focus yes if if um
02:59:31 possible can we take the document down now
02:59:46 please five
02:59:55 could we have up please 0728
03:00:18 976 this is the SDS annual report for
03:00:29 1987 thank you can we look at the this is the covering letter uh to John chilot if we from at the top of the page you will see it's
03:00:40 the top of the page you will see it's from Hugh annesley to John chilcott who was then the deputy under Secretary of State for the home office I am writing to seek authority to continue the special demonstration squad for a
03:00:52 special demonstration squad for a further 12 months the past year has continued the trend of 1986 which saw a reduction in the number of large-scale Street demonstrations in favor of smaller protests often mounted
03:01:04 favor of smaller protests often mounted by ad hoc groups campaigning on specific issues in this respect intelligence provided by the special demonstration squad has been a major element in enabling us to judge correctly the mood of various campaigns supported by
03:01:19 of various campaigns supported by political extr extremists whereby the police response was realistic and informed in addition to the public order issues of Street demonstrations a matter of particular concern is the militant
03:01:34 of particular concern is the militant animal rights movement spear headed by the animal Liberation Front Alf an organization now totally dominated by anarchists committed to direct action in July the ALF achieved the biggest
03:01:49 July the ALF achieved the biggest success in its 10 year history when over 9 million pound worth of damage was caused to deon's department stores in Luton Romford and Harrow the devices
03:02:00 Luton Romford and Harrow the devices were found to have been manufactured by Andrew Clark an anarchist living in Tottenham who went on to plan further attacks against various targets mostly stores selling animal Furs as a result
03:02:18 stores selling animal Furs as a result of excellent intelligence work by an SDS Officer Clark and another activist Jey Shephard were arrested in the act of manufacturing further devices in which it
03:02:33 transpired would have been used two days later at a specific Oxford Street store the arrest also prevented the first use of Fireball devices which Clark was developing there is no doubt that further large scale criminal damage was prevented this feat was achieved
03:02:48 was prevented this feat was achieved only at considerable risk to the s to the SDS officer in involved and his courageous achievement is a rare opportunity of seeing a tangible result of the professionalism and dedication which for many years has come to be expected of the SDS field officer now
03:03:03 expected of the SDS field officer now this jumps forward in time obviously to events later in 1987 but the fact uh that Hugh annesley is writing to John chilcott about this and that the animal
03:03:26 chilcott about this and that the animal rights side of the s DS operation merits a long paragraph in the covering letter is a good indicator isn't it of the gravity of the issue and the level of importance attached by your managers to your work yes if we could take that down now
03:03:41 please how did you then go about
03:03:50 obtaining intelligence about the forthcoming summer IID
03:04:00 campaign um in exactly you know carrying on in
03:04:01 on in exactly the same my um my same role um and and in some in
03:04:12 um my same role um and and in some in some respects what you know what are we I'm sort of three years three years in into my Ro I mean I learned you know I'd learned quite a lot um a lot um about you know how
03:04:25 um a lot um about you know how best um how best to do that without you know I mean I got a reminder of it from um reading some of um Chris Bailey's
03:04:44 um reading some of um Chris Bailey's transcript where he was talking about me in in the pub after one of the regular London Green Piece meetings and I I think it was probably un unwitting testimony you know he said some think
03:04:56 testimony you know he said some think question about well did you know this he and oh no he said I he said Bob you know Bob Robinson um you know he' he'd know
03:05:07 Bob Robinson um you know he' he'd know that before everyone he sort of painted a picture which I recognized of of how I worked without you know without
03:05:18 worked without you know without without being in any way suspicious um you know I don't think I was ever going to sort of
03:05:33 operate on on on a bigger stage I I was comfortable in a small group setting I I was never wanting to lead people I was a
03:05:45 was never wanting to lead people I was a very good listener um and you know I was fortunate that that my such skills that interpersonal skills that I had and the ability to remember things um then I you know I after 3 years I mean
03:06:02 then I you know I after 3 years I mean yes I I I am just to be honest the most important thing was to carry on as ever I was you know to meet
03:06:13 I was you know to meet be listening and um being part of of
03:06:24 be listening and um being part of of things um driving whenever you know not just it's not so much the driving it's being
03:06:25 being trusted to take people places and and um and to be part of you know to be part of things
03:06:38 things um where where I'm going to you know carry
03:06:42 carry on getting information but I mean the the intelligence
03:06:50 W with actual the actual preemptive intelligence for seal I mean that came out the BL I didn't plan I mean you can never really sort of plan to be in the right
03:07:01 right place at the right time or to to get sort of preemptive intelligence but even if you don't get the preemptive intelligence you're going to get um at
03:07:16 intelligence you're going to get um at some point you're going to get to find out um
03:07:23 out um um you know intelligence about who may may have been
03:07:34 involved between the date of your intelligence report that we looked at in some detail namely the 9th of June 1987 and the day on which the devices were planted at various deam
03:07:53 were planted at various deam stores on the 11th of July 198 of activist events were you attending
03:07:55 attending just the
03:08:04 um just the same as always I mean um I
03:08:05 um I I you know unless there's a report to
03:08:16 I you know unless there's a report to help me um but I I mean I can be pretty confident that you know I would have been
03:08:20 been definitely I think yes I can be confident
03:08:23 confident that I would be um paying close attention you know making sure that I
03:08:35 attention you know making sure that I had reasons to you know pop into the um London um London Greenpeace office um all the usual things I guess and but on top of which there may have been um you know you know I I
03:08:51 think [Music]
03:08:54 [Music]
03:09:05 um it would have been unu you know each week really something I needed to be available I I needed to be checking CU you know
03:09:20 checking CU you know someone I might be contacted at any time to help with something having said all of that I I you know I still had to um
03:09:21 to um maintain
03:09:29 maintain cover in terms of you know being one of just being one of the few people in employment uh well in in the broadly speaking with many exceptions but broadly
03:09:40 broadly speaking um I I was you know um I think Chris Bailey was in full-time employment but and maybe the two of us
03:09:52 the two of us were
03:09:54 were were um different in that sense obviously I you know had and of course I had meetings with regular
03:10:05 course I had meetings with regular meetings with managers um and um and trip you know trips home as well but nothing I mean at the moment I can't call anything
03:10:22 call anything sort of different to mind so continuing to mix with and socialize with Paul
03:10:28 grait
03:10:44 um yeah yes um yeah continuing to mix with and socialize with Jeff Shephard well you know potentially um but I I mean unless I can you know see or if I could recall
03:10:52 recall um I mean yeah it um I can't really without you know I can't really speak
03:11:15 to individuals whether you know whether I um whether I saw them or not um at on you know at given times unless unless the a something something
03:11:26 a something something to something remaining from that period to
03:11:32 to assist continuing to mix with and socialize with Andrew Clark if yes if um I can't recall you know I've got
03:11:45 know I've got no specific Recollections now of when and where or if and when um I saw him but potentially yes and
03:12:00 yes and what impression did you have and what information did you [Music]
03:12:06 [Music] glean from Paul grait in this period
03:12:11 period um nothing really well certainly nothing that I
03:12:12 that I can recall today um
03:12:24 same question in relation to Jeff Shephard
03:12:33 Shephard um nothing that I can recall today same question in relation to Andrew Clark nothing that I can recall today we have recovered no intelligence naming Mr gravit or Mr Shephard in this period
03:12:52 Shephard in this period why when they were two Al activists that you were very close to at this key juncture is there no reporting at all from you about these
03:13:03 from you about these men well I can't be certain and I I don't with respect I don't think the inquiry should be certain that the um absence of reporting today is
03:13:22 absence of reporting today is really um it's not conclusive at all I think
03:13:31 think um I can't think of any basis for thinking that we have today uh
03:13:33 today uh recovered um my reporting in its
03:13:55 reporting in its entirety but leave that to one side um did you Noti any change in the demeanor of Paul grait in this period Well I can't remember today that um I've
03:14:07 um I've obviously thought you know subsequently but at the time I no I don't think
03:14:14 um you know no that well there's nothing that I can recall to Dave if you had you should have reported it shouldn't you I don't well yes but now here's the thing
03:14:26 thing um yeah but maybe well look oh um not every far from every discussion
03:14:41 um not every far from every discussion that I had with managers about you know my dealings with my target group
03:14:58 my dealings with my target group resulted in in a printed report so that that probably needs to be said but e either way I mean all I can say is that you know I I can't recall um anything and I mean I suppose look it's it's highly likely that
03:15:14 it's highly likely that if you know let's say if I had gone to London
03:15:17 to London green I mean let's say maybe for some reason I didn't go to the main well even if I did go to the main London green pieace meeting on a Thursday um in the pub afterwards um
03:15:35 Thursday um in the pub afterwards um maybe you know maybe Paul gravit was there and um maybe Jeff Shepard was there maybe Andrew Clark was there you know um entirely possible but unless no I
03:15:45 I didn't um
03:15:57 didn't um you know if I didn't I I can't recall having anything to report but more coming back to your point um there would have been nothing to report in print you know there wouldn't have been um
03:16:11 there wouldn't have been um anything I mean we even I mean probably the majority of London Greenpeace meetings I went to
03:16:25 of London Greenpeace meetings I went to are not subject of reports by me in the early days they were um but by now um so it's very certainly very difficult today to try
03:16:33 try and you know recreate any clear picture o of that
03:16:47 period the same question in relation to Mr Shephard and Mr Clark if you had detected any change in their demeanor you should have reported that well at the very least if I had I would yes I
03:17:02 the very least if I had I would yes I would have discussed it with my managers for
03:17:04 for sure and maybe you know maybe I was being asked I I don't recall maybe they were asking me um but
03:17:15 um but um I can't recall
03:17:28 today and it would have been particularly important to report any such changes of demeanor by known um
03:17:32 known um Alf um
03:17:35 Alf um activists
03:17:44 activists given the imminent I campaign indeed it would but if I may Mr bar uh well with your guidance um you know it there is something very important
03:17:56 important about you know what my understanding was at that time um I'm s sort of thinking
03:18:09 at that time um I'm s sort of thinking about you know police activity related but outside of you know things that I was made aware
03:18:21 of sorry I'm not quite following you if this involves anything to do with people who might be
03:18:34 anything to do with people who might be anonymous or with alternative sources of intelligence then I would like you to write it down rather than utter
03:18:45 it for
03:19:40 than
03:19:50 I think you know I could say in very broad terms that after I submitted the
03:20:09 broad terms that after I submitted the report we were looking at you know I was aware that it was being um as always it was being um delivered to cquad and that um you know I
03:20:11 know I I
03:20:14 I yeah than you
03:20:32 yeah you can say that oh yeah well um yeah so you know yes I was made aware that um special
03:20:47 um special Branch surveillance teams were um were tasked to um to
03:20:54 um to um you know uh follow well they were
03:21:05 um you know uh follow well they were given um a tasking you know to follow um suspects
03:21:07 suspects and more to more in terms of um memorable um visual recollection which
03:21:21 memorable um visual recollection which are very very in great short supply but you know some things do stay with you visual
03:21:32 do stay with you visual um I so I I was in a pub in uh Stone Newington certainly with you know I can't quite remember
03:21:43 with you know I can't quite remember specifically who but with my sort of regular um
03:21:56 regular um Co comrades um and and I I saw um two two surveillance officers special Branch surveillance officers who you know I knew I knew
03:22:08 officers who you know I knew I knew fairly well um and that if nothing else um apart from sort of giving you know a surprise but um not that they were you know revealed themselves of course they were in the pub but anyway
03:22:24 course they were in the pub but anyway it it sort of conf underlined to me the fact that
03:22:26 fact that um that there was this um this kind of Interest or you know
03:22:38 um this kind of Interest or you know response is it your evidence that that was in the period between the 9th of June 1987 and the 11th of July 1987 or was it at some other
03:22:54 was it at some other time I think I think it was but it it's it's one it's
03:23:06 it's one it's either um it's either in the this period or it comes immed some point between um the deams attacks and the
03:23:16 arrests in the period between between the 9th of June 1987 and the 11th of July
03:23:29 1987 what indications did you get that there was going to be an attack on deham
03:23:41 attack on deham stores on the night of the 11th to the 12th of July 1987
03:23:53 I I didn't get any um I didn't get any indication did you get
03:24:04 indication did you get any indication that there was going to be any
03:24:08 be any IID
03:24:10 IID attack in that same period no
03:24:22 did you get any inkling that there was anything a
03:24:28 foot um no I I don't think I
03:24:42 did so is it your evidence that Mr gravit Mr Shephard and Mr Clark in this period behaved exactly as normal no that that that can't be my
03:25:03 normal no that that that can't be my that can't be my evidence because i' I've just have not got a Rel any recollection of you know I'm sure I did see them during that period um but um you know I can't I can't
03:25:18 but um you know I can't I can't really you know I just can't can't
03:25:23 say for sure I can't be
03:25:32 sure so might I invite you to take a slightly early lunch certainly I think there may come a time very soon will there not when we we'll have to stop the live
03:25:45 we'll have to stop the live transmission um I'm not sure I'd use the word very
03:25:46 word very soon well there will at some stage come that that I I had thought it might be at this stage but it uh will be a little later there uh we'll resume at 5 to2 all
03:26:15 rise for