Afternoon session with HN10 Robert Lambert regarding his sexual relationship with activist Jackie (mother of his child TBS). Lambert describes friendship growing, mutual attraction, claims Jackie chose to sit next to him in van. Testimony reveals Lambert told Jackie he was single, had her sit in front passenger seat while others uncomfortable in back, developed emotional relationship meeting 2-3 times per week. Lambert claims relied on Jackie's representation she was using birth control, denies Jackie told him she wanted to try for baby.
# Transcribed with OpenAI Whisper (medium model)
# Source: Local audio transcription (no YouTube captions available)
00:05:30 you
00:05:51 Could we have up please seven two six nine five six
00:06:00 Could we go to page twenty to paragraph two one six this is a document that you wrote about Mike Chitty when you were a manager but it refers here to events in the
00:06:20 1984 throughout 1984 the Southeast Animal Liberation League specializing in large-scale forced entries to vivisection laboratories was an ideal vehicle for acceptance into the ranks of the more
00:06:36 security conscious ALF. DS Chitty spurned this opportunity the writer on the other hand having recently entered the field took it and provided intelligence that led to the creation of the
00:06:44 12 leading SEAL activists at Wickham laboratories. He now ponders whether the
00:07:04 intelligence that led to the arrest of 12 leading SEAL activists at Wickham laboratories. He now ponders over DS Chitty's private comments to him at the time concerning tradecraft. In short the writer was reprimanded by his senior colleague for reporting prior knowledge of the laboratory raid in so far as he was allegedly in the laboratory.
00:07:34 He was reprimanded for not being a trained and skilled professional for not being negligent in respect of maintaining cover while indignant at what he perceived to be an unjustified professional slur he did not see fit at the time to question in turn DS Chitty's loyalty or motivation.
00:07:56 what you wrote as a manager, having regard
00:08:01 to what you told us a moment ago about whether a report I showed
00:08:06 you was your intelligence or Chitty's,
00:08:11 can you help me with whether, on the one hand,
00:08:19 it was your intelligence or whether it was Chitty's?
00:08:26 I don't think there's anything in this extract which
00:08:32 I'm reading, I think, for the first time in a long while.
00:08:38 I don't think there's anything that conflicts at all, really,
00:08:47 because the report that I wasn't sure of, well,
00:08:51 the report that I thought was perhaps
00:08:53 an amalgamation of intelligence from me and from him,
00:08:59 it's what we would call post-event intelligence.
00:09:08 I think whatever the terms and the tone of this report,
00:09:18 which I think can only be fully understood in its context,
00:09:25 but I think I can stand by all of what I've
00:09:39 said to you this afternoon.
00:09:41 This, I don't think this really argues against that.
00:09:53 Can we take that down now, please?
00:09:58 Will we be returning to the context in tranche three?
00:10:02 For now, I'd like to ask you some more questions about Jackie.
00:10:06 Jackie has said that, described you making a beeline for her.
00:10:12 Did you do that?
00:10:14 I don't think I did.
00:10:16 No, I don't think I did.
00:10:21 I don't think I would have done.
00:10:23 I can recall, I think, the first time I was in the report,
00:10:34 I can recall a friendship growing.
00:10:41 I can recall incidents that we both found humorous,
00:10:48 that perhaps in a group of eight, perhaps a group of eight
00:11:01 people traveling to a hunt, I am the driver.
00:11:11 Jackie might, of her own volition,
00:11:15 might choose to sit next to me in the front passenger seat,
00:11:22 and the others are far less comfortable in the back.
00:11:29 In those sorts of, those are the sorts of environments
00:11:34 where we became close friends and found that we enjoyed
00:11:46 each other's company, of course, as well as sharing
00:11:53 the interests that brought us together.
00:11:59 And I think, as previously, I think a sexual relationship
00:12:13 arose from that.
00:12:15 I think it was a mutual attraction or decision.
00:12:32 I think, well, I better pause.
00:12:34 I'm sorry.
00:12:36 Did you tell her you were single?
00:12:39 Yes.
00:12:39 Did you tell her that you were or had been
00:12:43 in a relationship with CTS?
00:12:52 I think I may have referred to that.
00:12:58 Not, I'm not sure that I would have necessarily
00:13:05 mentioned CTS.
00:13:15 I forget, sorry.
00:13:18 CTS.
00:13:21 I'm not sure whether I would have mentioned a name,
00:13:25 but I might have quite easily mentioned
00:13:31 a recent relationship.
00:13:40 Back to your evidence about the van,
00:13:46 did there come a time when you dropped Jackie off last?
00:13:54 Well, I can't picture that, but I'm sure that may well
00:13:59 have been the case.
00:14:00 And was that deliberate on your part?
00:14:04 I can't recall now.
00:14:08 And was it at that point that you
00:14:11 went to her accommodation and the sexual relationship began?
00:14:18 It may well be.
00:14:19 It would certainly be something similar to that,
00:14:24 but it may well have been the two of us.
00:14:29 It may have been our agreement to do that.
00:14:42 Did you take her to a Lebanese vegan restaurant in Stoke
00:14:46 Newington Church Street?
00:14:51 Quite possibly, yes.
00:14:54 I can't recall the type of the restaurant,
00:14:59 but yes, I think so.
00:15:01 Was that before or after your relationship became sexual?
00:15:07 I can't honestly recall.
00:15:12 Did you go to the restaurant more than once?
00:15:14 Yes.
00:15:19 Did you go to more than one demonstration with Jackie
00:15:22 before the relationship became sexual?
00:15:26 Yes, if we were to include demonstrations, protests,
00:15:32 such as the one at Hackney Town Hall, and hunt sabs,
00:15:38 well, yeah, I'm sure, for sure.
00:15:43 There would have been quite a few events
00:15:49 that we attended together.
00:15:56 When the relationship did become sexual,
00:16:04 did you address your mind before having sex with Jackie
00:16:10 to the fact that you were a serving undercover police
00:16:15 officer and thereby deceiving her?
00:16:21 Probably not in those terms, but I
00:16:25 never lost sight of the fact that I was still Bob Lambert.
00:16:37 And however well I compartmentalized two lives,
00:16:48 I never lost sight of that, even if I
00:16:53 may have become engrossed in the role
00:17:00 while I was playing that role.
00:17:06 If Jackie had known who you really were,
00:17:10 would she have consented to sex with you?
00:17:12 At that time, no, I'm sure she wouldn't have done.
00:17:17 Did you give any consideration to that
00:17:22 before having sex with her?
00:17:27 I don't think I did.
00:17:34 Were you having a sexual relationship
00:17:36 with Jackie before having sex with her?
00:17:42 Were you having a sexual relationship with her at the same time
00:17:46 as Jackie?
00:17:48 No, I'm pretty sure that my relationship with CS
00:18:02 had come to an end before my relationship
00:18:10 with Jackie started.
00:18:15 Did there come a time when Jackie found out
00:18:18 that you'd had a sexual relationship with CTS?
00:18:22 Only in the way that I've just spoken about,
00:18:28 that I think I may well have told her that I'd had a recently
00:18:33 had a sexual relationship.
00:18:42 Did you make any effort to hide from other activists
00:18:49 the fact that you were in a sexual relationship
00:18:52 with Jackie?
00:18:55 No, I don't think that I did.
00:19:03 Once the relationship had become sexual,
00:19:09 is it right that you would meet perhaps three or four times
00:19:15 per week?
00:19:20 I can't recall now, but certainly no more than that.
00:19:29 And I'm sure there would have been weeks when
00:19:39 it was much less than that.
00:19:41 I'm interested in an average.
00:19:44 Yes, well then I would think perhaps two to three times
00:19:53 at there would have been a point, I'm sure,
00:19:57 where maybe two or three times a week we would meet.
00:20:05 And Jackie developed an emotional attachment to you,
00:20:08 didn't she?
00:20:13 Yes.
00:20:16 Did you tell Jackie that you loved her?
00:20:18 No.
00:20:23 Well, I don't recall, but I think I probably did.
00:20:32 Put another way, she says you did.
00:20:34 Do you have any reason to doubt her on that point?
00:20:37 No.
00:20:41 Was there an understanding that this relationship was
00:20:44 a monogamous sexual relationship?
00:20:48 Yes.
00:20:55 Did you use birth control?
00:21:04 Well, I think so, yes.
00:21:09 I think my understanding was that she was
00:21:18 using a form of contraception.
00:21:24 How did you get that understanding?
00:21:27 It could only have come from her.
00:21:32 When did you get that understanding?
00:21:35 At the time we were engaging in a sexual relationship.
00:21:49 At the start or later on?
00:21:52 I can't be certain, but I would think almost certainly
00:21:59 at the beginning.
00:22:00 Can you recall discussing birth control?
00:22:09 Not actual discussions, but I have a recollection
00:22:16 that we did discuss it.
00:22:23 Did there come a point in time when
00:22:25 she told you that she wanted to try for a baby?
00:22:31 No.
00:22:34 I'm clear in my mind that she didn't.
00:22:46 You are aware that her account is that she did do that,
00:22:49 and you agreed to try?
00:22:53 Yes.
00:22:54 Is that right?
00:22:56 I'm sure that that wasn't the case.
00:23:02 Did she make clear to you at that point
00:23:06 that this was a real commitment?
00:23:13 No, not at all.
00:23:14 Not in those terms, no.
00:23:16 On your evidence, you are relying upon a representation
00:23:23 from her that she is using birth control.
00:23:26 Have I understood that correctly?
00:23:29 Could you just repeat that, please?
00:23:33 On your evidence, I am understanding
00:23:36 that you are relying on a representation from Jackie
00:23:40 that she is using birth control.
00:23:43 Yes, that's correct.
00:23:46 You do not use a condom?
00:23:50 Well, I don't recall using a condom in our relationship,
00:24:00 but there was no, there's nothing I remember
00:24:09 that I can remember.
00:24:11 There's nothing I remember that would suggest that I wasn't
00:24:21 prepared to do that.
00:24:25 I would have been quite prepared to do that.
00:24:34 You were an undercover officer indulging
00:24:38 in a deceitful sexual relationship, weren't you?
00:24:43 Yes.
00:24:45 Wasn't that of itself putting aside
00:24:50 that it was wrong in the first place?
00:24:53 Wouldn't that of itself, though, be a very good reason for you
00:24:58 to ensure there wasn't a pregnancy by using a condom?
00:25:04 Well, yes, that makes perfect sense today.
00:25:10 And you were, as we know, married.
00:25:12 Yes.
00:25:13 That was another reason to use a condom, wasn't it?
00:25:15 Yes.
00:25:17 She was, as we've discussed, about a decade younger than you.
00:25:23 Yes.
00:25:24 She'd had a tough upbringing.
00:25:27 She was living alone.
00:25:29 She was looking to you, wasn't she,
00:25:31 for love, stability, and support?
00:25:42 Not at all.
00:25:44 Certainly not on her account as regards
00:25:56 me being the assertion that I was encouraging
00:26:03 her to have a baby.
00:26:08 And no, all I can be sure about is
00:26:16 that we had a very close friendship.
00:26:21 We enjoyed each other's company,
00:26:25 and it became a sexual relationship as well.
00:26:32 But it was not, first and foremost,
00:26:36 a sexual relationship.
00:26:39 And the pregnancy, however negligent
00:26:55 I may or may not have been, it came as a surprise to me.
00:27:05 Why, in the light of all the factors
00:27:08 that I have just pointed you to, didn't you use a condom?
00:27:18 Because I think at the time, I was confident that she
00:27:29 was using contraception, and that that would be effective.
00:27:47 We all know that contraception isn't always effective, is it?
00:27:51 It's not, no.
00:27:52 Did you behave in this reckless manner
00:27:57 because you were not giving Jackie's well-being
00:28:02 any consideration?
00:28:06 I was certainly giving it very serious consideration.
00:28:12 And I continued to show that level of consideration
00:28:26 during the pregnancy.
00:28:35 When did you find out that she was pregnant?
00:28:39 Early in the new year of 1985, January, February,
00:28:52 I'm not sure.
00:28:54 What was said between you about the pregnancy at that point?
00:29:02 Well, I don't know.
00:29:04 What was said between you about the pregnancy at that point?
00:29:09 Well, very simply, I can recall Jackie telling me.
00:29:18 I was very surprised.
00:29:21 I think I, you know, to the extent that I felt anxiety,
00:29:33 I think I kept that, or tried to keep that private at the time.
00:29:42 It was a lot to take in.
00:29:45 But nevertheless, I think I showed her that our relationship
00:30:01 the fondness that we had for each other,
00:30:05 that I would stand by her during the pregnancy and beyond
00:30:18 as long as I would be there to help in some degree
00:30:26 in the way that I have described in my statement.
00:30:32 And I think to some degree Jackie supports that.
00:30:39 But the big, I think where we really differ is in, I think,
00:30:49 the, well, this issue of me having been party to a discussion
00:30:59 which was for her to have a child.
00:31:08 Did you tell her that you thought marriage was patriarchal?
00:31:14 I can't recall.
00:31:19 It seems it's possible.
00:31:23 It seems a bit unlikely, but I can't rule that out.
00:31:26 It would be in keeping with your anarchist persona, wouldn't it?
00:31:30 It would, but nevertheless, to talk to her in those terms,
00:31:37 in those words, well, that doesn't quite ring true.
00:31:43 I want to move now to management knowledge of the pregnancy.
00:31:52 You tell us that you spoke to Detective Inspector Barber.
00:31:59 Yes.
00:32:00 Was that a conversation that you initiated?
00:32:03 I can't altogether recall that, but I think it would have been.
00:32:13 Can you help us with when this conversation took place?
00:32:21 I think it took place shortly after Jackie told me about the pregnancy.
00:32:38 Your witness statement tells us that the conversation occurred in a public house.
00:32:43 Yes, that's my recollection.
00:32:47 Why did you choose a public house to tell your immediate manager
00:32:53 about the pregnancy and not a formal office setting?
00:33:04 Well, it wouldn't have been my choice.
00:33:08 It may have been one of our regular Monday or Thursday meetings at a safe house,
00:33:24 which then sometimes some of management might go to a nearby pub
00:33:38 that was deemed to be safe in SDS terms.
00:33:43 But I can't recall the actual day.
00:33:55 That would explain the setting.
00:34:00 Of course, the other thing is that I think it's a very important issue.
00:34:09 I think I wanted to discuss it with him in an off-the-record way.
00:34:30 To keep it off the record?
00:34:41 Yes.
00:34:44 What was said?
00:34:47 Well, I told him.
00:34:58 And again, my best recollection is that I did tell him who it was.
00:35:08 I told him who it was because at the very least they were aware
00:35:31 that I was very close to her from the seal raid reporting, if nothing else.
00:35:41 So I'm sure that I did tell him who I was referring to
00:35:53 that I believed I was the father, the prospective father.
00:36:12 I mean, yes, I think there was discussion, I think, about, well, could I be sure of that?
00:36:23 I mean, I suppose I couldn't be 100% certain, but I was sure enough, I think.
00:36:43 What was DI Barbara's reaction?
00:36:50 I think it was fairly defensive.
00:37:00 I think it was fairly limited in the sense just that I'd have to manage the situation.
00:37:26 I can't recall beyond that much.
00:37:32 So let's be clear.
00:37:35 DI Barbara, at this stage, knows beyond doubt that you have had sex with Jackie.
00:37:43 Yes.
00:37:44 And he does nothing about it.
00:37:47 Well, I've told him it's not clear to me at that point in time what, if anything, he's going to do about it.
00:38:03 At any time, to your knowledge, did he do anything about it?
00:38:09 No.
00:38:13 You have told him that although you can't be completely certain, you think you are the father.
00:38:21 Yes.
00:38:25 And he does nothing about that except to leave you to manage the situation.
00:38:30 Well, I can't speak to what he did, what he thought.
00:38:41 I can only recall the conversation as best I can.
00:38:53 Did he give you any advice about how to manage the situation?
00:38:59 No.
00:39:01 No, I think he may have.
00:39:06 I mean, it's only my only impression would be that he, you know, it was perhaps a shock for him as maybe needed to digest it, what I told him.
00:39:29 But there was no comeback for you from your managers as a result of making this disclosure?
00:39:39 No.
00:39:42 Was this conversation just the two of you?
00:39:45 Yes.
00:39:48 Did you tell Detective Chief Inspector Waite about the pregnancy?
00:39:55 No, I've got no recollection of that.
00:39:59 Detective Chief Inspector Waite has told the inquiry through his witness statement that you did.
00:40:10 Yes, I have read that, yes.
00:40:14 Having read his statement, do you have any reason to doubt Detective Chief Inspector on that point?
00:40:24 No, not to be honest. No, I don't.
00:40:34 I can't. No, I have no reason to doubt him.
00:40:39 Detective Inspector Barber is dead, isn't he?
00:40:43 Yes.
00:40:45 He was dead when you wrote your witness statement in 2022 for the inquiry.
00:40:52 Yes.
00:40:54 Detective Chief Inspector Waite is alive.
00:40:58 Yes.
00:41:00 And was when you made your statement in 2022.
00:41:03 Yes.
00:41:05 Is that the reason why you did not tell us that you had spoken to Detective Chief Inspector Waite?
00:41:15 No, no, that is not the case at all. No, it's not.
00:41:24 Was this a case of not wanting to grass on a fellow Special Branch officer?
00:41:31 No, no, it was not.
00:41:39 Do you have any recollection of speaking to Detective Chief Inspector Waite about the pregnancy at any time?
00:41:48 I don't have that recollection, no.
00:41:58 Did Detective Sergeant Couch come to know about the pregnancy?
00:42:08 Not to my knowledge.
00:42:11 Same question for Detective Sergeant HN45?
00:42:17 No, not to my knowledge.
00:42:20 Very slightly later, Detective Sergeant HN61 Chris Hyde?
00:42:27 No.
00:42:32 We know that your deployment continues.
00:42:37 Was any consideration given by you to ending the deployment at that stage?
00:42:50 Not that I can recall.
00:42:54 Was any consideration given to the possibility that paternity might have to be recorded or might become an issue or that child support might be sought, something of that nature which would lead to inquiries about your identity?
00:43:18 Yes, I'm sure thoughts regarding those issues would have been anticipated by me at some stage.
00:43:35 Can you recall when those thoughts crossed your mind?
00:43:39 I can't. No, I can't recall when.
00:43:42 What were your conclusions?
00:43:50 I think probably to find out, to see what Jackie, what she wanted to do in regard to registration and all these things.
00:44:17 I think to find a way of avoiding putting or being part of that registration process without going against the regulations.
00:44:46 I think that was the first thing I thought about, Jackie and her own plans.
00:44:55 We'll come back to the registration of the birth in a short while.
00:45:00 In the meantime, I'd like to come back to the question of paternity.
00:45:04 If you understood your evidence today, it's that you were at no stage ever seriously disputing paternity. Is that right?
00:45:25 Yes.
00:45:27 I follow that DI Barbara's raising of the subject and the lack of absolute certainty was simply being used as an excuse for doing nothing.
00:45:50 It's very hard for me to interpret that response.
00:46:00 But that must be possible. I don't know.
00:46:08 What other explanations might there have been?
00:46:18 For us to perhaps inform me that the situation or that my paternity might not be as certain as I thought it was.
00:46:47 Have you spoken to other undercover police officers about the fact that you fathered a child?
00:47:02 Not at all during my deployment.
00:47:14 I can't recall a time when I did.
00:47:35 Roger Pierce has written a book in which the main male character had fathered a child during the course of an undercover police deployment.
00:47:49 Have you ever had a conversation with Roger Pierce about whether or not that was based on what you did?
00:48:01 No, I haven't ever had that discussion with Roger Pierce. I'm certain of that.
00:48:18 Did any of your contemporaries come to know that you had fathered a child undercover?
00:48:33 I think that Mike Chitty did become aware of it, but I think much later.
00:48:48 I'm not certain.
00:48:55 Was this through meeting TBS whilst you were deployed?
00:49:03 Oh no.
00:49:09 Your son?
00:49:17 No, I don't think so.
00:49:24 How did he become aware then?
00:49:26 I can't recall.
00:49:32 Did John Dines meet TBS during the course of your deployment?
00:49:41 No, I can be confident that he never did.
00:50:00 Could he have heard about it from someone in the animal rights world? That's a possibility, but I'm not aware of that.
00:50:22 Did your sexual relationship with Jackie continue after the birth of TBS?
00:50:30 I think for a short while, but not for very long.
00:50:43 Jackie's evidence that she finished the relationship in late 1986 or early 1987, is that when your relationship came to an end?
00:50:59 The sexual relationship.
00:51:01 The emotional relationship.
00:51:04 No, I think the period after
00:51:33 my son's birth in October 1985 onwards,
00:51:49 I think our friendship continued.
00:51:55 I think there was no sexual relationship moving forward, but I think we remained good friends.
00:52:12 I think I was helping in ways I've described.
00:52:22 I think that continued, that friendship and the support that I was providing continued until around about September 1987,
00:52:51 when I received a letter from her, which I'll come to that later.
00:53:07 It was Jackie's evidence that the emotional relationship continued until late 1986, early 1987, but that the sexual relationship continued even after that.
00:53:19 She described to the inquiry that you would sometimes telephone to see whether she needed TBS babysitting so that she should go out.
00:53:34 But if she said no, you might get a takeaway and go to her house and see her and TBS there. Did that happen?
00:53:49 That happened, but without the sexual relationship.
00:53:55 I think you've anticipated my next question. Her evidence was to the effect that those occasions would end up quite often with you falling into bed and having sex together.
00:54:08 Are you quite sure that you never had sex with Jackie after the birth of TBS?
00:54:15 I am sure.
00:54:25 So would that be a convenient moment? And I fear I might have pushed this denographer a little bit to give this denographer a break.
00:54:34 Of course.
00:54:40 Would you be content then to continue until we stop about six o'clock?
01:17:34 Thank you.
01:17:44 I can't recall that conversation.
01:17:50 Might you have done so.
01:17:56 I can't recall.
01:18:06 Something that wasn't negotiable.
01:18:12 Was registration of the birth a subject that you broached with any of your managers?
01:18:18 No, not that I can recall.
01:18:24 The next question, it's very important that you answer it just yes or no.
01:18:30 To your knowledge, does TBS have a godfather?
01:18:42 I don't know.
01:18:50 Does TBS have a godfather?
01:18:56 No.
01:19:02 I want to go now to Dagenham.
01:19:08 Jackie's grandmother was a tenant of a council house in Dagenham, wasn't she?
01:19:16 I wasn't aware of that detail.
01:19:22 What I was aware of would fit in with that.
01:19:28 It's just a slightly different, not very different account that I remember.
01:19:36 What is the difference?
01:19:42 I think it was that Jackie told me that she would be able to move from the flat in Hackney to a house in Dagenham.
01:20:02 I think that yes, it was a council house.
01:20:08 My recollection is she said it had been her father's.
01:20:16 Yes, it was more, not different, a family connection anyway for sure.
01:20:26 Did you go with her to view this house?
01:20:32 Well, I can certainly recall going to the house on several occasions.
01:20:40 Whether I went with her before she moved in, yes, quite possibly.
01:20:50 Did you do some work on the fencing at the property?
01:20:56 Yes, indeed.
01:21:00 I think it was a bit difficult because it was one of a few occasions where I did fencing work and I think two or three friends in the movement.
01:21:26 I don't know which ones, but activists I guess.
01:21:30 They came with me and helped put this back garden fence up.
01:21:40 It was Jackie's intention that the three of you would live there?
01:21:50 Well, I don't think that's right.
01:21:56 At that point, which I can't immediately put a date on that, but no, I don't think that she harboured, certainly didn't communicate that wish.
01:22:16 It was very much Jackie was going there on her own with our son and that I would help in the ways that I did.
01:22:39 Well, I don't want to run ahead.
01:22:43 How much time did you spend there in the result?
01:22:49 It was a reduction of time over the time I spent there reduced over the period, whatever the date was that she moved in, I can't recall.
01:23:06 But from there until, and let's say my last visit there in around some point in 87, there was a gradual reduction.
01:23:21 But throughout that period I was a regular visitor, but not, I didn't visit as regularly as when she lived in Hackney.
01:23:37 Did you stay overnight?
01:23:39 I often did stay overnight.
01:23:44 And there was a cat?
01:23:47 The cat or cats I remember at Hackney, I'm not sure.
01:23:56 There probably was a cat at Dagenham, but I can't recall.
01:24:04 I think it's common ground between you and Jackie that informally you made a financial contribution.
01:24:14 Yes.
01:24:17 Where did the money come from?
01:24:22 Well, I think it came from the money, the cash that Bob Robinson had.
01:24:36 And I guess if you, well, I mean, I know that it obviously ultimately the money that Bob Robinson was seen to have, obviously it originates from my income, the Bob Lambert income.
01:25:03 Could you be clear about this? Is this money that's coming that you are earning under the cover name Bob Robinson, or is this money that is coming from elsewhere?
01:25:20 Oh, yes, I think it's elsewhere. I think that the money that, I mean, all I was wanting to say was that clearly Bob Robinson had to be seen to be earning money.
01:25:34 That was the understanding that people had.
01:25:39 But in reality, the work, the gardening work, the fencing work, the tree surgery work, whatever work that I did do as part of maintaining cover, that did not, would not provide the funding that we're talking about here.
01:26:08 Where did the money come from?
01:26:11 Well, it would have originated from my Bob Lambert's income.
01:26:20 Probably, most likely, the allowances that I claimed.
01:26:41 When you say allowances you claimed, does that mean that it was put through expenses?
01:26:48 I'm sorry?
01:26:49 Does that mean it was put through expenses?
01:26:52 Well, legitimate, you know, legitimate expenses of one kind or another.
01:27:03 In, I mean, I can't specify now all of it, but yeah, I was able to provide a regular sum of money to Jackie.
01:27:31 Could I have a yes or no answer, please? Was the money claimed on expenses?
01:27:38 I think some of it would, but I can't say more than that because really I can't recall, you know, I can't recall the sort of day to day or the week by week situation.
01:27:59 What was it claimed as?
01:28:02 Well, no, no, the money that I gave to Jackie wasn't claimed as anything.
01:28:13 I am receiving an income, some of which is pay and then some of which might, you know, might be allowances, which I might, you know, might be paid separately.
01:28:42 What allowances?
01:28:48 I think there was, I think there was an out of London allowance if I was traveling out outside London.
01:29:00 I think there was just a standard metropolitan police allowance that managers would claim and pass on to me.
01:29:12 Were you paid an allowance for your expenses as an undercover police officer?
01:29:19 Well, there would be some regular outgoings.
01:29:25 They were, they were characterized by managers under the heading under the name pubs and subs, which was pubs was publications and subs was subscriptions.
01:29:41 So that, but under that heading would come, you know, various, obviously petrol.
01:29:53 There might be some, might be some expenditure to do other expenditure to do with vehicles where we would be required to produce a receipt for,
01:30:18 say, an item for the van or something of that order.
01:30:25 And was the money to pay for TBS as maintenance put through pubs and subs?
01:30:32 No, I don't know. I don't think it was. No. Well, I know it wasn't. No.
01:30:44 Did your managers know that you were paying maintenance to TBS? No, not TBS. TBS's mother? No.
01:30:55 Did they ask? No. Did they ever speak to you about the subject? No.
01:31:05 We have up 722-577.
01:31:12 This is an Operation Hearn transcript.
01:31:25 Page 16, halfway down, please.
01:31:37 This is where you're talking to the Hearn investigators about it.
01:31:44 I mean, to be consistent and to be the kind of person I was understood to be, I mean, again, not to labour it, but I guess, you know, in field, you know, as well as being, you know, caring towards animals like you are a caring person.
01:31:59 And for better or worse, for better or for worse, I'm sorry, you know, I mean, it wouldn't have seemed, you know, it wouldn't have seemed credible if I'd failed to do that.
01:32:16 I'm going to have been giving the Hearn investigators the impression that you were paying maintenance in the way that you did to show those you were mixing with that you were a caring person.
01:32:36 In other words, for reasons of maintaining your cover. Is that fair?
01:32:42 It's certainly fair.
01:32:45 Fair
01:32:48 account of what I said to her and and
01:32:53 it's true as far as it goes, but
01:32:57 I think at that time
01:33:00 I was
01:33:02 probably
01:33:05 reluctant to
01:33:08 talk more openly about my
01:33:12 my actual feelings about my
01:33:16 responsibility towards
01:33:20 my son.
01:33:23 But yes, it's true that
01:33:27 I
01:33:30 as always, whatever I was doing, I yes, I had to be
01:33:35 consistent as far as that went and
01:33:42 I continued to
01:33:45 maintain cover. But I mean, that is all that I could do as
01:33:52 you know, as Bob Robinson and it was all I
01:33:56 ever wanted to do, which was to
01:34:00 do the best that I could
01:34:04 for
01:34:06 Jackie, for whom I had the utmost
01:34:10 respect and affection.
01:34:13 I want to do the best that I thought I could in these circumstances
01:34:19 and to do the best that I could for my son in in these circumstances. I
01:34:27 back in 2013, I hadn't quite
01:34:32 reached the point where I could be, you know, even
01:34:40 properly
01:34:45 think about that.
01:34:47 It's for years and years, it was a heavy, heavy
01:34:54 weight
01:34:56 on my shoulders, but I kept it
01:34:59 private.
01:35:01 Would you have paid maintenance if keeping up your cover appearances had not required it?
01:35:09 I certainly would have done. There's no question about that.
01:35:16 What was the amount of the maintenance that you paid to Jackie?
01:35:21 Well, I said, I've said that the
01:35:25 figure of 30 pounds stuck in my mind. I said initially I couldn't be sure if it was 30 pounds a week or 30 pounds a month.
01:35:37 Either way, it doesn't sound like a lot of money today.
01:35:44 But I think
01:35:49 Jackie
01:35:51 thinks that she talks, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, in her
01:35:56 in her statement, I haven't read her transcript, but I think she talks about 50 pounds and 50 pounds a week.
01:36:06 I recalled paying by check and she, I think, recalls paying payments in cash.
01:36:14 I think perhaps cash
01:36:18 during
01:36:21 the first period.
01:36:24 I think once she's moved to Dagenham
01:36:27 and once perhaps we're
01:36:31 not seeing each other
01:36:33 quite so much, perhaps that might have been when
01:36:39 I paid by check, although
01:36:44 I think she doesn't recall that I did.
01:36:50 Did you consider the amount sufficient?
01:36:55 Well, yes, it would make a big difference whether it was a weekly payment or a monthly payment.
01:37:06 But it wasn't, you know, it was something, obviously, that we
01:37:13 we would have spoken about, I think, in addition to that
01:37:21 regular payment. I think if, you know, I think she knew that if
01:37:28 she had some other, some particular expenditure that I would try and help.
01:37:34 And I did help.
01:37:38 Within the means of Bob Robinson?
01:37:43 Well, that would have been her, obviously her understanding, but of course it would have originated from
01:37:57 Bob Lambert's money.
01:38:02 Would it be fair to say that the arrangement led to Jackie bringing up TBS on far less than if she had known that you were really a police officer?
01:38:15 I think for a period, yes, but I'm not, I mean, obviously I'm not saying this in any way in defence of what I did.
01:38:29 I'm not. I'm not looking to excuse it.
01:38:32 But if it if it's just some some sort of mitigation or some context, but I genuinely believed in her ability to achieve
01:38:49 everything that she has achieved in her life.
01:38:53 And, you know, my as far as I could, I was looking to encourage her
01:39:04 to, you know, to move forward, to move forward without me because I knew that that was going to be an inevitability.
01:39:16 Did you ever reflect on that discrepancy between what you were actually giving her and what she might be entitled to?
01:39:25 I probably did. And I wouldn't have been
01:39:32 comfortable, I'm sure, but I can't recall.
01:39:39 But you did nothing about it.
01:39:42 Well, I did, you know, I did what I could in in a number of ways.
01:39:54 I was supportive.
01:40:00 I believe I was supportive throughout.
01:40:06 I think I did the best I could.
01:40:09 And
01:40:14 of course, I, you know, I look back now and I don't feel good about it on
01:40:23 any level.
01:40:28 Did you have a bank account
01:40:32 in your cover identity?
01:40:36 Yes, yes, to the best of my recollection,
01:40:41 I did.
01:40:43 I think,
01:40:45 well, I think in some way,
01:40:49 I think it related to, in cover terms, I think it related to my
01:41:01 my cover employment in general terms.
01:41:11 Even as an anarchist?
01:41:15 I'm sorry?
01:41:16 Even as an anarchist?
01:41:18 Well, yes, indeed.
01:41:21 Just as London Greenpeace had a bank account.
01:41:25 I mean, every
01:41:28 everyone did.
01:41:30 No, sorry, not everyone, of course, but as an individual.
01:41:42 Yeah, I think.
01:41:49 Can we move now?
01:41:52 Since you've said you felt bad about it to what you
01:41:58 your reflections at the time of your 2013 interviews.
01:42:03 Can we go please in volume one, sir, tab A, Roman numeral two, eight, the very last tab in that file.
01:42:13 Page seven, two, two, five, seven, seven.
01:42:18 Page six.
01:42:21 That's page six of the electronic pagination, sir.
01:42:24 Page five of the internal pagination.
01:42:37 If we pick it up about halfway down the last paragraph.
01:42:49 It was a difficult period.
01:42:50 I was aware that I was not following the spirit of the of the sort of of the sort of the record guidance that I had.
01:42:59 I wasn't properly following.
01:43:01 I hadn't properly followed guidance about relationships generally.
01:43:06 You know, there I am, you know, sort of early 1985.
01:43:11 I mean, I hadn't been in the field that long.
01:43:14 I've had two relationships and I could take stock and I did take stock.
01:43:19 Then I thought, you know, well, I have, you know, I have got emotionally involved in both cases.
01:43:28 You know, sort of, you know, I hadn't shown the, you know, I don't know.
01:43:33 I mean, it happened.
01:43:34 You know, I could understand it on one level, but I was troubled.
01:43:39 You know, I was troubled also because up until that point, you know, I'd been faithful.
01:43:48 Yeah. Says the interviewing officer.
01:43:50 You continue.
01:43:54 And I was a familiar.
01:43:55 I was a family man and it didn't really feel good going home to my, you know, sort of long established family environment.
01:44:08 So I was troubled on both sides.
01:44:11 And again, you know, I think frankly, you know, I suppose if I'd been someone else,
01:44:19 I would have been better at just either, you know, not getting involved full stop or just, you know, having a casual more of a casual fling, as I might say.
01:44:33 So a number of questions I want to ask you arising from those answers.
01:44:40 First of all, what you should have done is not get involved full stop with either CTS or Jackie, isn't it?
01:44:49 Yes.
01:44:51 Secondly, it is a considerable understatement to say that you hadn't followed the spirit of the guidance you was given.
01:45:03 Yes.
01:45:07 In terms of how you were feeling, can and what you said about not if you'd been a different person.
01:45:21 Am I to understand your evidence to her that you are saying you were temperamentally unsuited to the role because you were not able to stop yourself when it came to sexual relationships with members of the opposite sex?
01:45:41 No, I honestly don't think that's what I was saying then.
01:45:48 And what I would say now, what I would say now or this afternoon is what I said this morning when I was talking about my prior relationship.
01:46:14 Now, I know I shouldn't just rehearse what I said this morning again now.
01:46:25 So, well, I don't know what else.
01:46:35 The point I think I just got to emphasize the point of how I was feeling.
01:46:48 I was not adequately described at all to Operation Hearn, but I was doing my best when I was being interviewed by Operation Hearn.
01:47:02 I was dealing with very deep emotional issues that had been kept submerged for a number of years, but I've come to better terms with all of that now.
01:47:21 And I'm here to try and be as honest as I can be and to, you know, I'm not looking for excuses at all.
01:47:32 You know, I believe in what I was responsible for.
01:47:40 Bob Robinson was, you know, my alter ego and I became too immersed in Bob Robinson's world.
01:48:01 And I, you know, the central point is, as it was this morning, I think the central point is that I was following instructions, guidance that to me, these instructions to form close friendships with activists that I met.
01:48:30 I mean, that was absolutely crystal clear in my head.
01:48:35 And I understood that if you were intended, if you had the targeting strategy that I had, that's what you needed.
01:48:47 And both of these relationships arose from those close friendships that I was instructed to undertake.
01:49:00 If I had been someone else, this is what I'm probably getting at here in 2013.
01:49:10 If I had been an undercover officer who was only interested in a casual fling in or an undercover officer who perhaps hadn't been tasked in the way that I was to form such essentially close relationships, necessarily emotional.
01:49:35 I'm not sure you can have a close relationship, friendship without your emotions being involved.
01:49:40 I mean, I did what I was asked to do.
01:49:44 I did it in a way that, you know, was was obviously part of me.
01:49:52 It was my creation.
01:49:54 It was based on me.
01:49:56 But it was.
01:50:01 It was a result of that.
01:50:02 And that's not, I don't intend that as an excuse.
01:50:07 I do think that those few psychiatrists that have looked into the pressures that undercover officers face, you know, when they form these close relationships, whether they are sexual or not, the
01:50:30 significance of the pressures that they're under.
01:50:36 I do know that that must be, must have some relevance to my case and probably to others.
01:50:44 But that's not a defense.
01:50:50 And if I may, just while it's while I'm here again, as I said this morning, it just finally again, I do genuinely, sincerely apologize to Jackie.
01:51:05 None of our differences in what we recollect from this period really matters much to me now.
01:51:17 And I'm, you know, I'm I'm deeply sorry.
01:51:26 I believe I did my best in the situation I found myself in.
01:51:34 And of course, I'm deeply sorry for my son, who has suffered in in in other ways.
01:51:54 And I just remind you of those words we were discussing at the bottom of the second paragraph on the screen.
01:52:01 I suppose if I'd been someone else, I would have been better at just either, you know, not getting involved full stop or, you know, having a casual more of a casual fling, as I might say.
01:52:16 The clear implication of that, isn't it, is you are saying you did not have the willpower to behave as you should have done.
01:52:24 Well, can I have a yes or a no to that, please?
01:52:28 I don't accept that.
01:52:33 Can we go?
01:52:35 Before we go.
01:52:39 Did you question at all at that point, seven months into your deployment to sexual relationships and to pregnancy, whether you should be continuing as an undercover police officer?
01:52:59 I know I can't honestly.
01:53:04 Recall that, but I think.
01:53:07 If I'd had whatever reflections, private reflections I was having, I know I can't recall that specific reflection.
01:53:23 Now, going back to the passages about you being troubled.
01:53:30 I got emotionally involved in both cases, you know, sort of, you know, I hadn't shown, you know, I don't know.
01:53:36 I mean, it happened, you know, I could understand on one level, but I was troubled, you know, I was troubled also because up to that point, you know, I'd been a faithful husband.
01:53:45 And I was a family man and it didn't really feel good going home.
01:53:52 You weren't so troubled that you did not go on to have sex with RLC, were you?
01:54:01 No.
01:54:02 You were not so troubled that you did not go on to form a long term sexual relationship with Belinda Harvey, were you?
01:54:12 No.
01:54:13 Were you really that troubled at all in those early months of 1985 about what you were doing?
01:54:25 Yes, yes, I'm sure.
01:54:31 I'm sure that I was.
01:54:33 Why didn't you simply avoid any further sexual contact with members of the public in your undercover identity?
01:54:51 Well, it's clear to me now that I shouldn't have done.
01:55:04 But I continue to form close friendships and on two subsequent occasions.
01:55:27 That also leads to a to a sexual relationship.
01:55:41 Can we turn in the same document to page 12, please?
01:55:53 This is in the course of a long answer, Mr. Lambert, but I'm looking for a passage which is in the center of the page, just above the center, which starts towards the right hand side of the text with the words, I will just say that.
01:56:15 Thank you.
01:56:16 Oh, yeah, got that.
01:56:17 If you could if we could have highlighted that, thank you very much.
01:56:25 I will just say that I did have contemporary field officers who some of whom had you had got involved to some degree with some women.
01:56:37 And so I was kind of I didn't feel under too much peer pressure, but I suppose, yes, there was some both, you know, some sense of just wanting, you know, wanting Bob Robinson to be a real person.
01:56:56 But I was acutely aware of the fact that I was like, you know, kind of, you know, getting involved romantically.
01:57:05 I just stop there.
01:57:06 Those words, I didn't feel under too much peer pressure.
01:57:14 But I is that in fact, at least part of the reason why, despite the position you found yourself in, in January 1985, you went on to deceive two more women sexually.
01:57:36 I'm not quite sure what the context is where what I'm what I'm talking about peer pressure, but lack of it, Mr. Lambert lack of peer pressure.
01:57:49 Yeah, but in regard to what specifically the implication is clear, isn't it?
01:57:58 Sexual relationships.
01:58:10 Okay, yeah.
01:58:18 Yes, it's possible.
01:58:21 We can.
01:58:22 I can put this question without reference to the text of your interviews at all.
01:58:26 Quite simply, you weren't under any peer pressure to behave sexually during the course of your deployment, were you?
01:58:35 To peer pressure to to behave properly sexually undercover.
01:58:45 Well, okay. Yeah, I guess.
01:58:49 I guess that that's.
01:58:53 That's the case. Yeah.
01:58:57 You're obviously adverting there to some of your contemporary field officers, having also got involved with women.
01:59:12 Mindful of observing restriction orders.
01:59:19 Write down the answer if you need to.
01:59:22 Which officers?
01:59:29 Yeah, I mean,
01:59:35 very difficult to say
01:59:41 when
01:59:46 you know, when I got got the impression even that
01:59:56 that some contemporary field officers
02:00:03 were involved to some degree with women, I mean, I
02:00:14 I can't immediately think of an individual field officer
02:00:22 about whom I had clear knowledge about.
02:00:30 This field officer is having a sexual relationship with someone.
02:00:40 I think.