Robert Lambert's testimony covering his June 1984 deployment into animal rights groups. He describes infiltrating Islington Animal Rights, Badgers (Haringey Animal Rights), and London Greenpeace as stepping stones towards the ALF. Key focus on his first sexual relationship with activist 'CTS' - began after driving her home from a London Greenpeace meeting, likely in September 1984 after knowing her about a month. Lambert apologizes to CTS and his wife, admitting he was 'playing with her emotions' and she would not have consented had she known his identity. Managers may have seen photographic evidence of the relationship.
00:24:57 e e
00:25:56 good morning everybody uh the first part of today's proceedings are going to be live streamed um the usual rules therefore apply those who have got electronic devices may use them for transmitting what is going on in the hearing room what they hear provided
00:26:12 hearing room what they hear provided they do so 10 minutes after the event that they are uh reporting um the devices may not be used for recording or photography there is a reporting restriction order in force which uh was
00:26:25 restriction order in force which uh was read out uh shortly before I came in in um that order applies uh and uh when uh as will happen uh later on in the
00:26:41 as will happen uh later on in the morning the live transmission stops that will be the uh only order in force but it applies uh to the first part of proceedings as well as the rest of the day if you are in any doubt about what it contains and I know it's long and
00:26:54 it contains and I know it's long and complex please ask a member of Staff before reporting on something about which you are in doubt thank you
00:27:06 thank you sir uh Mr Lambert I I want to move to your deployment itself I'm going to call up the first report in time that we have it's a
00:27:21 2358 Volume 5 tab C1 so
00:27:38 now this report is an intelligence report uh about Denise Bennett uh it's dated the 24th of July 1984 I can tell you that from your Commendation
00:27:51 Commendation recommendation you are said to have deployed on the 18th of June 1984 does the middle of June sound about right it does and
00:28:04 right it does and so this is your first report more than a month later can you assists with what you were doing uh between the middle of June and the 24th of
00:28:24 July I'd um obtained accommodation in the uh Finsbury Park area a
00:28:26 area a bedsit and uh one of the um first things I did in terms
00:28:35 terms of deployment uh was to uh approach Islington Animal Rights
00:28:52 approach Islington Animal Rights group uh and I recall that uh Denise Bennett was the uh leader or secretary uh for that group uh and um I I
00:29:03 group uh and um I I recall U meeting her going
00:29:14 to uh those groups that group's activities I think that was almost certainly the the first thing that I did
00:29:32 did uh as a as it my as a deployed officer as Bob Robinson apart from
00:29:39 from um say the business of acquiring the bedset and and um routine things like that was
00:29:52 um routine things like that was Islington animal rights of interest to special branch in its own right um I can't recall now now whether it as a
00:30:05 can't recall now now whether it as a group whether it had in any way come to the attention of special Branch um but
00:30:19 Branch um but um I would have known at the time if if that were the case that there might be some
00:30:21 some indications on the report that's um before me now and just okay we we can have a look at but uh uh just so you understand what I'm driving at is once
00:30:33 understand what I'm driving at is once we've had a look at a couple of reports I want to know whether you are infiltrating is uh isn't an animal rights purely as a stepping stone towards the AL or whether you were
00:30:45 towards the AL or whether you were infiltrating it as a group that was of interest to special branch in its own right as well but let's look at a couple of reports and I'll come back to that
00:30:56 of reports and I'll come back to that question so uh starting with this report it's an individual report about Denise Bennett so we can take it that you felt by this stage you'd got to know her or found out information about her
00:31:12 found out information about her sufficiently to write a report yes and if we look uh at uh paragraph four please first of
00:31:20 all whilst it is extremely unlikely that Bennett is herself part of a local Al cell she is an established figure in in
00:31:37 cell she is an established figure in in the animal rights movement to whom those younger members engaged in criminal activity turned to for support and
00:31:51 support and Direction now can you helpers um as to what information you had come by to suggest that there were members of Islington animal rights engaged in criminal act
00:32:12 criminal act acity well I certainly would have had a very clear idea at the time I can't recall uh the any uh detail now to support
00:32:13 support that what I do recall
00:32:18 do recall now is that uh it was it was not uncommon in in all of my
00:32:33 was it was not uncommon in in all of my experience over four and a half years to encounter
00:32:36 encounter very genuine respectable animal rights activists in local
00:32:49 local groups who would never ever entertain the idea of uh becoming involved in criminal activity but who did feel so strong ly so
00:33:12 strong ly so passionately about the cause of animal rights animal Liberation um uh that uh they would on occasions be uh be willing to
00:33:16 to um condone to um accept
00:33:24 accept criminal activity
00:33:28 could we go now to paragraph
00:33:39 two Denise Bennett the energetic leader of isington animal rights is in possession of photocopies of the documents recently stolen from the officers of the Zoological Society of
00:33:56 officers of the Zoological Society of London in Regent Park the theft of the documents was claimed by the ALF in a press release on the 5th of July 1984 is this a reference to the sort of action that's sometimes referred to as an
00:34:07 an inspection oh I'm sorry could you just repeat the last I is this a reference to the sort of action that is sometimes described as an
00:34:27 inspection yes I think um at the time I I'd forgotten but yes I think the term in
00:34:28 in inspection uh certainly would might have been used yes and so far as documents are concerned
00:34:43 and so far as documents are concerned was the tactic to take documents read them copy them and then return them I I
00:34:50 them I I can't I can't say with any certainty uh I can
00:34:53 uh I can recall instances where um
00:34:58 where um documents that were obtained uh say well I I I'll pause there I don't want to jump ahead the
00:35:16 there I don't want to jump ahead the reason I'm asking you is um I understand that documents were returned precisely to avoid or to provide an arguable defense to a charge of theft so the activist would say borrowed not stolen right okay uh that may well be
00:35:32 stolen right okay uh that may well be that that may be the case I can't recall okay can we now take that document down and go to the documents uh the next tab C2
00:35:58 2364 this is uh also um date the 24th of um a big problem this is dated the 31st of July it's week uh later this report is about the group itself uh paragraph one reads this
00:36:10 itself uh paragraph one reads this report serves as an introduction to the activities of Islington animal rights the following information has been received from a secret and reliable
00:36:21 received from a secret and reliable source can I take it from the use of the word introduction that special Branch may not have known um all that much about Islington animal right before
00:36:33 about Islington animal right before then I think that would be uh correct yes and if we go to paragraph four
00:36:51 please say hitherto I meetings have taken place on Fridays at the home of Denise Bennett 27 monel road N4 and then it goes on to say that that's going to change in the future can I take
00:37:05 going to change in the future can I take it from the evidence that you've already given us that it is likely that you attended meetings at the home of Denise
00:37:22 attended meetings at the home of Denise Bennett uh yes I I do I certainly recall going to her house in fact I recall going
00:37:23 going there
00:37:24 there um to
00:37:31 um to to join the group I think her address must have been in some way advertised um if you know if a member of the
00:37:39 the public uh wanted to join then that that is a a recollection that
00:37:50 then that that is a a recollection that I have and and when I first met her for sure did you give any thought to uh whether or not it was proper to cross
00:38:04 whether or not it was proper to cross the threshold into a private home acting in the capacity of an undercover police officer I certainly had um a clear understanding uh from my managers that this
00:38:15 this was uh what was expected of
00:38:24 me and how had you got that understanding um in in
00:38:30 in conversations with my
00:38:42 managers were you given any instruction as to any sort of legal test to apply or practical test to apply as to whether you should or should not enter a private home
00:38:49 home um I'm sure
00:38:55 that the guidance would have been
00:39:04 to enter a home if it was in the course of my
00:39:18 role presumably on that on the basis of that answer nobody would have battered an eyelid about this report in the back office
00:39:25 office well absolutely but just to say it it would the term the back office I know it gets used in different context but my understanding at the time
00:39:41 context but my understanding at the time was very briefly that the back office is where
00:39:46 where the recruits sat where where I sat when I was in training and the front office
00:40:05 I was in training and the front office was where the four managers sat just for the sake having a picture of what what it was the the the SDS management team as it was then in the 1980s
00:40:11 1980s um so forgive me uh no that's a helpful clarification thank you so did anybody bat an eyelid in the front office um no uh I'm sure they
00:40:22 uh I'm sure they didn't can we now go to page two paragraph 8
00:40:34 uh finally reference should be made to a small number of Youth aged between 14 and 20 generally of punk appearance VI
00:40:45 and 20 generally of punk appearance VI partially shaven heads hardened quills of porcupine hair in an arc from the center of the forehead to the nape of the neck who are actively engaged in
00:41:00 the neck who are actively engaged in Acts of criminal damage at the premises of fire X Laboratories local fur shops and butcher shops in the latter case content to dorb a familiar message meet
00:41:11 content to dorb a familiar message meet his murder in bright red paint across a window whilst they appear to have no formal membership of I and aspire to the status of an animal Liberation Front cell they are clearly
00:41:24 Liberation Front cell they are clearly linked to the group by friendships and common aims furthermore or there are indications that I funds are used to
00:41:35 indications that I funds are used to sponsor these illegal activities and are available to offset any resultant court fines first of all biorx we'll be coming to biorx again when we get to
00:41:48 to biorx again when we get to 1986 but can I take it from this 1984
00:41:59 1986 but can I take it from this 1984 report that the Animal Rights Campaign against the biox Laboratories was a longstanding campaign yes uh certainly it was a campaign that was ongoing when I first uh
00:42:10 ongoing when I first uh deployed uh now you've given a vivid
00:42:22 deployed uh now you've given a vivid description of these young punks but you have also made clear that they were not formal members of Islington animal rights yes you will recall the first report we looked at where you talked
00:42:37 report we looked at where you talked about members of I involved in criminal activity can you help us with that discrepancy please I I'm not sure that
00:42:55 discrepancy please I I'm not sure that it is a discrepancy I think both would have been true uh both would have been accurate um at the time and um
00:43:05 so I think I'm not sure that I can add any more at this stage finally on this paragraph you at this final sentence there are
00:43:20 this final sentence there are indications that I funds are used to sponsor these illegal activities now funding illegal activities is a serious matter isn't it what were the
00:43:35 it what were the indications I can't recall now what um what they were um it
00:43:40 um it would the Intelligence on
00:43:54 would the Intelligence on that that final point that would have come from my my observations uh my listening both at formal well I don't think any meetings were formal but um but
00:44:06 meetings were formal but um but certainly I by that time I would be having conversations with uh a variety of people either formerly members
00:44:29 formerly members of anim uh Islington animal rights or others that lived in the area um and um and yes I I speaking to Denise Bennett as well at the moment hers is the only
00:44:44 hers is the only name um that I've seen from this from I I I think I would um I'm sure there are other names that I would recognize that and I could
00:45:04 that I would recognize that and I could say that I was also speaking to them um and of course particularly going on demonstrations uh with them and of and it just comes to me now it might be important forgive me but I I'm
00:45:17 but I I'm sure there was at least one demonstration organized by Islington animal rights probably a bigger National
00:45:28 animal rights probably a bigger National demonstration that I went on and at that I met um
00:45:34 I met um people associated with London Greenpeace but
00:45:39 but anyway back to the last sentence and what the
00:45:40 what the indications of funding illegal
00:45:51 indications of funding illegal activities were surely if there had been any concrete indications you would have particularized them in the
00:46:00 report well I I I can't say now uh uh if I had more detail
00:46:10 detail um I I would have reported it um that's that was my report then I think I I definitely would have been confident that it had a sound that that
00:46:24 that it had a sound that that point about funds it would have had uh a sound Foundation well the part of the answer you gave to
00:46:41 well the part of the answer you gave to the effect that if you'd had details you would have provided them make sense but the implication is that if you didn't report them then you didn't have concrete foundations is it possible uh that this is uh an
00:47:00 exaggeration I I um I'm no I'm absolutely confident that I would not have been uh exaggerating that can we take that down now please and go to the document sir it's tab five of the same file
00:47:20 2390 this is a report dated the 7th of August
00:47:30 August 1984 it's about a protest organized by Islington an animal rights at uh selfes
00:47:32 selfes um and it's involving also the fur Action Group can we go to did first of
00:47:50 Action Group can we go to did first of all did you attend this protest in order to report on it um can I just ask is it is it possible to have it enlarged yes just a FR which I mean we can oh yeah thank you we'll be going to various bits of it in due course but I'll give give you a moment to refresh your
00:48:02 you a moment to refresh your memory sorry what can you repeat the question please did were you
00:48:20 there uh yeah I I don't recall but yes I'm sure the report indicates to me that I I would have been there yes can we look at paragraph four in particular please
00:48:39 privacy was particularly jubilant claiming to have punched a female shop assistant in the face during the fracka can I take it that by the use of the word
00:48:53 the word claiming you didn't witness this event that would yeah that would seem to be the
00:48:54 the case was it your experience over the course of your entire deployment that violence against the person was rare in animal right
00:49:11 circles
00:49:16 um well C yes certainly
00:49:24 uh um goodness I wouldn't say it was altogether rare um
00:49:34 um but
00:49:39 but something uh such as this
00:49:46 this um punching a female shop assistant um
00:49:47 um nothing nothing
00:49:56 else of that order come comes to mind now
00:49:57 now now um violence though I I do recall on several occasions uh members of the
00:50:09 of the public
00:50:15 public suffering is it violence certainly what what I'm about to say is surely it's a kind of violence where a members of the public wearing fur coats or coats or
00:50:30 public wearing fur coats or coats or items that were deemed thought to be fair um uh would be spat at would
00:50:44 fair um uh would be spat at would have um even you know on one occasion paint poured over uh their belonging so
00:50:50 so um it's a difficult one to to I don't think I could say altogether rare violence against property far more more common yes you've already told us that the
00:51:05 yes you've already told us that the Islington animal rights had perfectly law abiding members did there come a time when you ever came to know that a member of Islington animal rights had
00:51:21 member of Islington animal rights had committed an action which was criminal and claimed under the name Alf
00:51:29 [Music] um i' I'd
00:51:35 um i' I'd need the maybe I I can't recall now I think if if there is I'm reasonably confident that it'll be somewhere in in all of the reporting that I've been
00:51:54 all of the reporting that I've been shown um two two two years ago for my statement
00:52:01 but nothing Springs to mind no can we uh go to haringay animal rights please which I think also went under the name badges didn't it yes this is tab seven sir of the same file
00:52:30 248 and we'll see that uh this is a report dated the 10th of August 1984 and if we look at paragraph two
00:52:42 please so on Tuesday the 7th of August 1984 from 8:00 p.m. to 11:00 p.m. Haring Animal Rights group known as Badgers held its regular monthly meeting at the Trade union and Community Hall Brent Road
00:52:55 Road n22 40 persons were present this is your first report in on badges was that meeting your first
00:53:06 badges was that meeting your first experience of the group or had you interacted with them before that I I would think it was my first experience I think I only ever um went to their
00:53:28 ever um went to their meetings two or three times probably at most and why did you attend those meetings as part of my uh my strategy my operation my deployment um
00:53:51 and I recall that um where where I was um based um living um the cover address Finsbury Park it was situated right on the boundary between Islington
00:54:14 boundary between Islington haringay and and I think Hackney just by not by any design of mine but it it did um it did allow me uh it g you know I could legitimately could go along to uh a badger
00:54:25 could go along to uh a badger meeting uh as a as a local a local person
00:54:27 person could we look at page two paragraph four
00:54:38 please the next item on the agenda was a call to support uh East London Animal Aid on Saturday the 29th of September 1984 in a demonstration against a slaughter house situated in East London
00:54:57 slaughter house situated in East London it was proposed that the slaughter house be surrounded by protesters who would link arms in a symbolic gesture of solidarity with those fellow creatures
00:55:11 solidarity with those fellow creatures inside the building about to meet their Doom 20 persons present I present indicated their intention to
00:55:21 attend are you you are reporting that because it has some policing value I'm I'm sure that would be the case case and pro this is prosp an example of prospective reporting on an
00:55:38 example of prospective reporting on an event that police might wish to attend to ensure that the piece is kept
00:55:49 yes if your mission is to infiltrate the ALF how important a component was this sort of intelligence of which the quite
00:56:02 sort of intelligence of which the quite a lot in in the papers how important was that to your managers and to the and to special
00:56:04 special Branch I can certainly recall that it was expected of me um I can recall that I was
00:56:16 I was following what other deployed officers were doing um after my 9 months in the back office I I was in no doubt as
00:56:35 back office I I was in no doubt as to what was expected of me in terms of my
00:56:36 my reporting um and here
00:56:41 here um I'm sure we'll come onto it but here of course uh the um the slaughter house although it's not named there will I'm
00:57:02 although it's not named there will I'm sure it will be Laden Street and um it was you know the scene of um ongoing
00:57:04 ongoing um
00:57:06 um protests where there was a risk of violence um coming from the slaughter house and where there was a police interest for
00:57:22 sure would it be fair to say though that any public order value arising from your deployment was very much subsidiary to your primary mission
00:57:39 much subsidiary to your primary mission of providing intelligence about serious crime
00:57:40 crime um
00:57:48 um well at that time all I in 1984 um I
00:57:57 1984 um I would I don't know I would have been absolutely confident that this was
00:58:14 um this was Intelligence um that the SDS management team that they would um disseminate in in the way that they did and yeah I'm I'm not suggesting it had no policing value on the contrary appears to have some what I'm suggesting to you is you
00:58:26 some what I'm suggesting to you is you were not deployed into the animal Rights Movement primarily for public order intelligence um I think the it's yes I accept that um but but [Music]
00:58:38 [Music] um I'm not yeah
00:58:44 um it's difficult to
00:58:57 say um yeah I know what forgive me I lost my thread there I think um I would have had some understanding then but obviously later my understanding grew but really um as far as I'm
00:59:14 really um as far as I'm aware um you know there there has never been
00:59:16 been um
00:59:17 um a convicted Al
00:59:26 Al figure convicted for for Crime who who hasn't had prior involvement in a local animal rights
00:59:37 involvement in a local animal rights group of some kind and and and and that would have been an understanding um I'm sure paragraph five
00:59:54 please privacy organizer of a campaign against all pet shop shs in Haring gave details of letters he had written to the owners of the shops he made an oblique reference to a badger associate who was
01:00:11 reference to a badger associate who was currently awaiting trial at Crown Court for the theft of a chinchilla a small South American rodent from City Pet Shop in woodgreen and indicated that Badgers would assist in the court case it is
01:00:25 would assist in the court case it is believed that the person in question is privacy privacy born privacy of privacy so this is uh the group um providing
01:00:38 so this is uh the group um providing support to someone who's not a member but an
01:00:40 but an associate for a an offense of theft
01:00:50 yes can we go now to Tab 8 sir 2431
01:01:08 this is a report dated the 29th of August
01:01:15 1984 and if we look at the first three paragraphs
01:01:35 please this is further intelligence about the demon rtion that we've just seen you report on in the previous report and it gives more specific
01:01:37 specific details
01:01:41 details um I'll give you a moment to look at that uh yourself
01:02:06 yes uh so from a policing point of view the value of this is it gives some quite detailed Intelligence on a forthcoming protest at which there may be minor acts of criminal damage in your judgment by people who are not members of badgers
01:02:21 people who are not members of badgers yes it also tells me I was wrong just now to think that the slaughter house was the one in Laden Street this is a
01:02:33 was the one in Laden Street this is a different one which I'd forgotten about in Carpenters road so having been to these reports the overarching question I have about
01:02:44 overarching question I have about haringay animal rights would it be fair to say that in public order policing intelligence
01:02:56 in public order policing intelligence terms uh it's of some use but relatively small beer these are not people who are going out to Riot um
01:03:00 Riot um yes and in terms of offending
01:03:09 offending um that you're getting intelligence about through attending their meetings it's quite small beer isn't it
01:03:24 yes I want to pick up though now on part of your answer a moment ago that the real reason you're there or the primary reason you're there is to meet people
01:03:35 reason you're there is to meet people who might be involved in more serious offending could we go please to
01:03:55 14856 and this is a um report dated the 20 23rd of October
01:04:03 October 1984 it's an individual report about Andrew
01:04:05 Andrew Clark paragraph two and three
01:04:20 please the person previously referred to as Andrew in connection with the Affairs of badgers haringay Animal Rights group haringay Community Action and London Green Piece has now been identified as and Andrew Clark Clark continues to
01:04:34 and Andrew Clark Clark continues to reside at Alexandra Road North 8 where he shares a communal lifestyle of his fellow anarchists and Libertarians because of his articulate and modest manner he is more readily accepted by the respectable members of badgers than the majority of his
01:04:52 badgers than the majority of his comrades if you hold that in mind and could we have up please 218
01:05:10 eight this is a report from the 11th of September so just over a month earlier and there is a reference in that
01:05:22 and there is a reference in that um to someone who is known only as Andrew and that we are to I am told is um a reference
01:05:31 reference to
01:05:34 to Andrew underneath one of these privacy redactions is the word Andrew so bearing that in
01:05:42 that in mind my question to you is did you meet Andrew Clark for the first time through
01:05:59 Andrew Clark for the first time through badges well um it's quite probable but I can't be certain um at the same time I would have been attending London Greenpeace
01:06:11 attending London Greenpeace meetings could have met him there for the first time um equally I I may have been visiting uh an
01:06:27 visiting uh an address that was a bit of a meeting point um in in haringay but yes it's quite probable
01:06:40 haringay but yes it's quite probable that um that that was the first time if the precise circumstances in which you first met Andrew Clark are lost in
01:06:51 first met Andrew Clark are lost in time can we be reasonably certain that you first meet him in the Autumn of 1984
01:06:53 1984 yes now as we will come to to in due course we do get uh to some involvement in serious crime but what I'd like to
01:07:05 in serious crime but what I'd like to know from you at this stage is when you first meet him in 1984 what is he like well um my that first report that
01:07:25 like well um my that first report that was about him uh I think gives gives a very succinct uh description of him which which I I can recall uh as you know being um
01:07:50 recall uh as you know being um act at you describe him as articulate at that stage do you have any idea whether or not Mr Clark has committed any offense in the name of animal rights
01:07:56 rights no no I'm sure if if I'd had any
01:07:58 any um
01:08:04 anything of that nature to report I would have reported it um I can't recall now
01:08:12 now temperamentally as you got to know Andrew Clark uh first of all did you get to know him well enough to help us with his temperament
01:08:31 um not that I can call to mind
01:08:42 um just no nothing beyond that reported um description is there any particular reason why you've chosen to submit an individual report specifically about him well I think for the for the the
01:08:56 him well I think for the for the the reasons in the in the report um and I mean it's it won't be it's not a unique report I'm sure um
01:09:14 uh I said I would come back having dealt with Harring I said I'd come back to Islington animal rights and the question I first asked you about whether or not
01:09:25 I first asked you about whether or not uh you were independently interested in Lon animal rights or whether it was
01:09:36 Lon animal rights or whether it was purely a stepping stone towards the AL having been through these documents perhaps you could um answer that question
01:09:37 question please in in regards to badges as well no well I think it might be helpful if you deal dealt with both I'm sorry with both please with both yes well
01:09:50 both yes well um starting with um badges [Music]
01:10:07 um oh I'm sorry could you uh forgive me um um could you just repeat the question yeah essentially what I want to know first of all for Islington animal rights yes secondly for haringay animal rights are you attending their meetings as a stepping stone into the AL or because
01:10:23 stepping stone into the AL or because you are interested in those groups in their own right or both well yes I think it's both but I think there's there are
01:10:35 there's there are other other factors at play I I think um just
01:10:42 um just as just as I I met Andrew Clark for the first
01:10:49 first time um either at badgers or London Green Piece but at that time 84
01:10:54 84 um you know it would it would also be true that
01:10:55 true that um with Islington animal rights either at a meeting or at an event that um that I met
01:11:12 I met other others um and the two that come to mind are both um Jeff sheeper and um Paul
01:11:13 Paul grait both um either at a Islington animal rights meeting or around their um
01:11:39 events can we go now to London green piece and I'm going to have put up the first report in time we have attributable to you um which refers to London Green Piece it's a document at tab 9 sir 2434
01:12:00 now this is a report dated the 31st of August
01:12:07 August 1984 and if we um if we could expand please paragraphs 2 to
01:12:20 4 you will see what it's about uh it's about it's a prospective report about a demonstration that is being organized outside the doorchester hotel to be held on the 6th of September uh against demonstrating
01:12:36 September uh against demonstrating against the annual general meeting of unigate
01:12:47 limited is it likely that this is your first contact with London Greenpeace or uh would you have got to know them or had some contact with them before first reporting on them
01:13:00 reporting on them certainly I may well have had contact I may well have been to a meeting um in earlier say August
01:13:12 meeting um in earlier say August uh uh but um this would have been at an early stage of my deployment we um
01:13:29 have this report um in fact I think I'm sorry I've made a mistake this is the second report can we take that down and can we have up please
01:13:39 2432 there is a report two days
01:13:45 earlier I'll give you the background I'm going to show you three reports the first is this one which is about a cycle ride the second one is about the uh
01:13:56 ride the second one is about the uh Dorchester protest uh then we will get on to um the first report we've got about a me attendance at a meeting and what I'm interested in is is how you get
01:14:08 what I'm interested in is is how you get to know Green Peace So if we start sorry with the cycle ride report 29th of August um if we look at paragraph uh two and three
01:14:23 please Saturday the 25th of August 1984 between 10:00 a.m. and 2: P.M p.m. 20 people took part in the free thee cycle ride in North London initially there was some minor disruption to local traffic in lordship Lane North 19 but this
01:14:36 in lordship Lane North 19 but this ceased soon as Nate motorist buckled the rear wheel of an obstructive cyclist the protest ride was organized jointly by
01:14:49 protest ride was organized jointly by privacy and Dave Morris of London green pece and Haring a community action the intended route was not completed because of the poor performance of machines and
01:15:01 of the poor performance of machines and Riders at 2 p.m. the party adjourned to a picnic in Highgate Woods having succeeded only in circulating a small number of leaflets to Saturday
01:15:13 number of leaflets to Saturday Shoppers could we take that down now please and have up 0 37249
01:15:33 that must be a that's not the right reference either looking for a reference for the photograph for the this protest we take that down did you um
01:15:55 protest we take that down did you um watch uh on follow the evidence of hello Helen steel I haven't had that opportunity
01:16:02 no um do you recall this event I I can recall it vaguely
01:16:14 yes right could we try 020 432 please nope hang on
01:16:32 we'll come back um we will come back to the bike
01:16:39 ride can you recall
01:16:44 recall whether how you come to know about this bike ride there's reference to Dave
01:16:56 bike ride there's reference to Dave Morris can you help us with that well I I would think it would have come from attending a London Green Piece meeting
01:17:02 meeting uh and are you infiltrating London Green Peace for the same reason that you've infiltrated Islington animal rights and haringay animal rights or is there more to it no broadly speaking it would be the same
01:17:18 consideration
01:17:25 the thank you can we try 037 429
01:17:48 please this is a photograph um which has been provided to the inquiry by Helen steel uh which she uh says is of the demonstration in question does that jog your memory well well it doesn't actually jog a memory
01:18:00 a memory except
01:18:10 um if you look may let me help you if you look immediately in front of the van yes you can see that the bicycle immediately in front of the van has had damage sustained damage to its rear
01:18:22 damage sustained damage to its rear wheel um is that the incident you were referring to um in your report
01:18:33 oh I'm sorry I don't think I've read I showed it you a moment oh a moment ago sorry
01:18:35 sorry damage to that van no the damage to the back wheel of the bicycle oh right no I'm sorry I
01:18:53 the bicycle oh right no I'm sorry I didn't register I can see that yes yeah yes this event was uh an innocuous protest wasn't it it
01:19:04 um yes yes I I think so and lawful
01:19:11 lawful yes so you've come across London Green Piece to the point where you have attended a cycle ride did you go on this this ride with
01:19:23 this ride with them I think I probably did but I can't be certain
01:19:29 and then if we take that down and go to [Music]
01:19:42 2434 two days later you submit a report about a forthcoming London Greenpeace protest outside the Dorchester
01:19:53 Dorchester Hotel the one that we looked at a moment ago can you remember how you got the intelligence about the forthcoming
01:20:00 protest I think uh yeah I think it would have come from a a London Greece London Greenpeace meeting um that I attended if we go to
01:20:11 we go to 2230 please that's tab 15
01:20:23 sir this is the first report we've got about you
01:20:26 about you attending a meeting and if we see the date top right if we could have the date and then paragraph two expanded
01:20:37 and then paragraph two expanded please the report is the 25th of
01:20:45 September so about three three and a bit weeks later and it says on Thursday the 20th of September 1984 London Greenpeace held its regular meeting at 6 Ensley Street the meeting commenced at 7:00
01:21:00 Street the meeting commenced at 7:00 p.m. closed at 9:45 p.m. 16 people were in
01:21:08 attendance is it likely that you attended a meeting without reporting on it um it is well it's possible um yes that that is a possibility there
01:21:22 um yes that that is a possibility there are other possibilities which I won't go into unless you want me to having seen these three reports in the sequence bicycle ride report about the
01:21:35 sequence bicycle ride report about the Dorchester protest uh first report about you attending a meeting is it your evidence that you started to meet people from London Greenpeace
01:21:47 meet people from London Greenpeace through Islington animal rights or Badgers and got into London Greenpeace that way or is it evidence that you
01:22:03 that way or is it evidence that you went concurrently straight to London Greenpeace um I would say that
01:22:05 say that the I'm pretty sure that my uh the meetings I went to with Islington animal rights came
01:22:17 animal rights came first um and then meetings at London Greenpeace came uh fairly soon fairly soon
01:22:27 soon afterwards and it is it right that from this point onwards from The Early Autumn
01:22:46 this point onwards from The Early Autumn late summer Early Autumn of 1984 you are therea a regular attender at London Greenpeace until you execute your exfiltration strategy um yes albe it I think in in the last year um my attendance was quite
01:23:04 decreased you make a distinction between London Green Peace and Green Peace International the much better known International Environmental Group you told um operation
01:23:18 told um operation Hearn that what you described as the main Green Piece would often come along and
01:23:26 and voice
01:23:28 voice concerns I'll get that up please 722
01:23:38 580 it's volume one tab a Roman numeral 26
01:23:44 26 sir at page 15 once we've got the document up
01:24:08 yes so I'm looking at about the middle of the page if we could have essentially the middle section of the page
01:24:20 expanded you give an answer uh yeah we're interested in Green Piece and they didn't perhaps realize that it was quite distinct and it had a very strong Anarchist ideology I suppose and
01:24:34 Anarchist ideology I suppose and regularly the main the main Green Piece would often come along and you know voice
01:24:43 concerns did you mean by that that somebody from Greenpeace International would physically
01:24:56 International would physically attend a green piece London Green Piece meeting yes certainly um on
01:25:07 meeting yes certainly um on um a visit um I can recall such a visit at a meeting and a um the
01:25:12 a um the representative from whether it was you know let's say the main Green Piece um spoke
01:25:33 how often can you recall um people from Greenpeace International attending London Greenpeace meetings well I have a a a recollection of one occasion um
01:25:45 occasion um I'm I'm sure that the the well let's put it this way there was one occasion when when I was present I think um I had my
01:26:01 present I think um I had my understanding was that it was not the first
01:26:02 first time um that the group the main group um attended but uh so I could where did you get that
01:26:18 could where did you get that understanding from from my conversations with um London Greenpeace uh
01:26:29 members did they tell you how many times they'd
01:26:30 they'd been um not that I can recall now because you're telling Hearn that they attended
01:26:42 they attended regularly and you can only recall a single
01:26:47 single instance only one that I can that I actually have you exaggerated to operation Hearn the frequency with which Green Piece in International visited London Greenpeace um well no I don't
01:27:04 London Greenpeace um well no I don't think so that was my that was my best recollection what concerns did Green Peace International raise on the one occasion that you can recall
01:27:15 recall um very difficult [Music]
01:27:24 [Music] to recall now I I think it may have
01:27:24 may have [Music]
01:27:26 [Music] been
01:27:27 been uh a request to to the London Greenpeace group to change its name um because um it
01:27:44 because um it was there was a lot of from their from their point of view or from the representative who came to London Green
01:27:51 Green pieace from his point of view I I guess
01:28:04 um there was a lot of um misunder understanding um
01:28:05 um about two
01:28:08 about two two groups that were really quite different um but with very similar names so a single instance of London
01:28:20 names so a single instance of London green PE of Green Peace International attending to to ask London Green Peace to change its name well that's my that's the you know that's the best I can
01:28:32 the you know that's the best I can recall this morning um I may well have
01:28:45 recall this morning um I may well have reported on it at the time and um and S for sure at the time I would have been able to give you a very full account of all the issues uh that were being discussed but I I do recall that there was no
01:29:00 I I do recall that there was no um there was no resolution whatever the the
01:29:01 the fall um issues were that the representative from the main Green Piece um
01:29:15 Piece um had I I'm pretty sure that he left the meeting without achieving any um resolution could we take that down now please some general questions about your relationship with London Greenpeace did
01:29:36 relationship with London Greenpeace did there come a time when you became a key holder uh and giving you access to the building in which uh the London Greenpeace office was situated I I don't recall it but I I think that
01:29:52 think that must you know when I when I look back on it I think that must be the case um because I think um at some point much later uh not at this period we've been looking at but later
01:30:03 later on
01:30:10 on when London Green Peace um had had a rented
01:30:12 rented room
01:30:13 room um about well
01:30:26 um above houseman's Bookshop um then I think I I did have a key um
01:30:33 key um what and what was there inside the London Greenpeace office that was of interest to special Branch
01:30:52 um the the um or um no different to the
01:31:01 um all of the issues that applied to my
01:31:14 deployment within London Greenpeace and in sort of also in line with my um role of infiltrating
01:31:25 my um role of infiltrating the uh animal Liberation Front did it give you access for example to their mailing
01:31:26 mailing list
01:31:34 list um it probably did yes and would that have been of interest to special Branch um
01:31:37 Branch um not not um not routinely but but
01:31:51 potentially and did it give you access to documents uh about their finances um it may have done I I can't recall did you become at some point a signatory to the London Greenpeace bank
01:32:07 the London Greenpeace bank account I'm pretty sure that I didn't I think if I had done I would remember that
01:32:15 but the finances of the group were they of Interest a special Branch not um not as a a matter uh not as is a routine matter
01:32:31 no there's a suggestion uh that people were making donations mistakenly believing that they were sending money to Greenpeace
01:32:43 were sending money to Greenpeace International do you recall anything about
01:32:55 about that um yes when I've been shown um reporting on that it I can I can remember it yeah Mr Shephard gave evidence that when that
01:33:12 that happened uh the correspondent was always sent a reply with a selection of leaflets which would make very clear uh that the person had written to a very different green piece and
01:33:28 a very different green piece and therefore would have uh the opportunity to write and say may I have my money back is that what happened um I can't recall today whether that whether that is what
01:33:44 happened within London Green Peace were there
01:33:50 there tensions between on the one hand some of the anarco pacifists people like Martin low and on the other hand those who uh were advocating
01:34:10 hand those who uh were advocating militant and even criminal animal rights action uh yes there were
01:34:20 tensions what stance did you take at London Greenpeace meetings
01:34:26 I think uh that that may have
01:34:41 think uh that that may have my position may have developed in the uh certainly in the early period I was very
01:34:42 very concerned not to not to take sides certainly no I think more to the point I was concerned not to
01:34:59 not to not to make an enemy of anyone um because
01:35:01 because um well because I think that was that was part of
01:35:11 of my um my learning both prior to
01:35:24 my um my learning both prior to deployment and juring deployment that um you know an SDS officer couldn't really afford to have enemies you know the the job
01:35:34 job was difficult enough um but um
01:35:43 so um well I I can explain that in in more but in relation to individuals but I'll pause
01:35:58 did your stance change um yes I think
01:36:08 um o over the course of time um and maybe I
01:36:16 I maybe excuse me maybe I do need to
01:36:21 to uh illustrate it with with reference to an individual but again you may be coming to that so but yes it might stance did change what I'm driving at is isn't the
01:36:35 change what I'm driving at is isn't the reality that as someone who is trying to infiltrate the ALF and as we discussed yesterday has to be a
01:36:41 be a doer uh you would need to portray yourself as being aligned with the more militant faction wouldn't you well um
01:36:54 you well um given that
01:37:01 uh given that Martin low was
01:37:15 the the leading figure in the group on the anarco pacifist side um and was someone uh who I did form a a a good uh friendship with um you
01:37:31 a a a good uh friendship with um you know it's important I think for me to say that things were never really as clearcut as as it might seem now or or to an outsider the the fact is that
01:37:44 to an outsider the the fact is that um um even even on his own evidence which I have uh read a transcript of um you know
01:37:57 um you know Martin uh
01:38:05 Martin uh was uh a friend of Ronnie Lee the um at the time the sort lead Le
01:38:16 the time the sort lead Le leading uh figure in the S animal Liberation Front World um so I I was I would have been acutely aware that uh
01:38:33 that uh to you know to upset Martin to have Martin to
01:38:35 Martin to to uh speak ill of me
01:38:45 um would you know potentially go to uh Ronnie Lee um and over and above that um
01:38:57 you know I was aware that it was um it was
01:39:06 quite you know it was um quite a complex World Mr Lambert Ronnie Lee's association with London Greenpeace was even by
01:39:21 even by 1984 historic wasn't it well it doesn't matter how with respect it doesn't matter how historic it was uh for me uh and for my managers um you know it was a an an important consideration and indeed um there's no
01:39:37 consideration and indeed um there's no from Ronnie Lee's point of view when he did get to meet me I'm sure hearing from me that I was a London Greenpeace regular he would um quite possibly uh seek
01:39:49 possibly uh seek some um
01:40:03 uh insights about me from Martin low and the Insight that you would like Martin low to give Ronnie Lee was that you were more militant um yes in part but but
01:40:19 militant um yes in part but but equally um you know this this you know there's um I think there's more to it there's questions of reliability the other thing well I I better pause can I come back to my question for a yes can I have a straightforward succinct answer
01:40:33 have a straightforward succinct answer please yes did you portray yourself as on the militant wing of animal rights whilst at London green pece yes but I had to do it uh carefully um by and um by
01:40:48 carefully um by and um by degrees I'm going to move now to a slightly different topic could we have up please
01:41:05 2189 if we could ex expand first of all the
01:41:09 the date you'll see this is the 11th of September
01:41:11 September 1984 if we could go to uh paragraph
01:41:24 2 on Thursday the sixth of September 1984 between 12: noon and 2:00 p.m. a demonstration organized by London Green
01:41:38 demonstration organized by London Green Piece took place outside the Dorchester Hotel Park Lane W1 nine protesters leafleted unigate limited shareholders as they attended the company's AGM the broad grounds of their complaints against this company are set
01:41:52 complaints against this company are set out in a leaflet which is submitted here with there was no disorder or untoward incident now this is the demonstration that you had previously reported was going to
01:42:08 reported was going to occur can you recall whether or not you attended this demonstration U yes I can recall attending
01:42:14 attending it and
01:42:21 it and um one reason being I I have seen a photograph of of me um out outside you know at the venue um I've seen that photograph in well in post
01:42:35 post deployment okay I let's have a look at that 037 380 please
01:42:55 is that the photograph you're referring to
01:43:06 to Yes uh if we um go back uh please to
01:43:07 to um the document we were looking at
01:43:22 2189 and if we look at paragraph three and the bottom half of that page
01:43:35 please the following list of persons taking part and the organizations they represent indicates how London Green Piece has become closely aligned to the course cause of animal rights uh and then it gives a list of
01:43:53 rights uh and then it gives a list of names the second uh name down I don't want you to utter the name where you using the cipher CTS you know who CTS is don't you yes London Greenpeace resident in Earl's
01:44:13 London Greenpeace resident in Earl's Court born in privacy age early 20s SB does that mean special Branch records yes no
01:44:30 Trace you are here reporting details about CT s aren't you yes can we take it that you have then at least met her on this
01:44:34 demonstration um
01:44:39 um yes is this the first time you met her
01:44:41 her um I can't be
01:44:56 certain how sure are you well I'm not sure it would either it's possible but it would have been around that
01:45:04 time what is your recollection of when you did first meet
01:45:10 CTS um I don't have a the sort of the clear recollection from that comes
01:45:22 from that comes with the photograph we've just seen but um
01:45:28 um um I would think it would most likely have been at a a London Greenpeace
01:45:43 meeting before the 6th of September yes but one that you've not reported on because the first report we've got of you attending a London Greenpeace meeting is after that well yes that
01:46:07 meeting is after that well yes that we've seen but I think I should be quite clear about my assessment over over the you know the last um 12 years or so of where are we today in terms of how much of my reporting uh is you know survives and is
01:46:20 is you know survives and is now reports that we can look at I I mean I've in a nutshell I I can't be convinced that every single report I wrote still survives understood um
01:46:33 wrote still survives understood um secondly uh I can't be at all certain that every report that I submitted to my managers was always
01:46:45 managers was always deemed you know worthy of of transcribe um editing and and submitting in the way that we we see uh routinely
01:47:01 that we we see uh routinely uh there may well have been reports that um that weren't submitted so that I think needs to be
01:47:12 so that I think needs to be said could we go to page three of this document
01:47:15 document please this is the leaflet that you submitted together with your account of this demonstration
01:47:26 this demonstration a I'll give you a moment to look at [Music]
01:47:37 it did you write that I'm pretty sure that I
01:47:51 did if we can take that down now please back to CTS can you tell us in your own words how you got to know CTS well certainly
01:48:11 CTS well certainly at um London Greenpeace meetings um and uh afterwards at fairly uh
01:48:14 fairly uh regular post meeting Gatherings at at a nearby pub um
01:48:24 pub um I
01:48:25 I think also I think at a another a bigger demonstration the one
01:48:39 a another a bigger demonstration the one we've looked at was was far from being a big demonstration I I I think there may have
01:48:40 have [Music]
01:48:41 [Music] been a
01:48:44 been a bigger
01:48:46 bigger demonstration um as well um
01:48:57 that that would be the
01:49:10 um um that that would be the the the occasions where where I I met her
01:49:17 yeah London green peece was a non-h hierarchical organization wasn't it well it certainly aspired to be that
01:49:29 it well it certainly aspired to be that and it was yes that's what it was um but that didn't preclude leading figures [Music]
01:49:43 [Music] from um taking on fairly you know fairly leadership type roles some people were more prominent than others some people were more prominent than others yes uh on the scale of prominence where was
01:49:55 was CTS
01:50:02 CTS um I would say well um to be IM immediately um immediately I I wouldn't have
01:50:14 um immediately I I wouldn't have uh I wouldn't have known for sure but I it I think it did uh
01:50:26 it I think it did uh become uh clear to me that um you know she was a fairly a fairly new
01:50:33 new uh I was going to say member but there was no official membership but fairly new on the scene yes thank you sir would that be a convenient point to take our morning
01:50:45 convenient point to take our morning break certainly um May I just ask one question before we do that um you've been shown a number of reports of which you were the author up to yes up to um uh September
01:50:58 uh September 1984 um you describ those reports in your witness statement as based on information provided by you so do I take it from that that there were your reports or that you provided reports which were then written up by
01:51:24 reports which were then written up by others or what yes certainly they were um they were reports written up by my management team um based on my draft reports on notes it uh that I would submit to
01:51:40 would submit to them and apart from perhaps the uh special Branch reference numbers uh which may have been put in by those in the front office uh in the reports that we've looked at so far is
01:51:57 reports that we've looked at so far is is there anything in any of them which was not the result of information provided by you um I I no I I I think I could rule that out information that hasn't come from
01:52:15 information that hasn't come from me no um I think yes there may have been some
01:52:17 some editing editing out um or might have been that sort of I can't talk to the editing process but I I don't think there would have been any
01:52:29 been any other
01:52:42 other intelligence um being either Amalgamated with mine no thank you then we'll break for quarter of an hour and resume that course
01:52:43 course to
01:52:51 rise
02:10:20 e e
02:11:09 Mr Lambert how did your relationship with
02:11:10 with CTS become sexual it
02:11:15 sexual it um became
02:11:18 um became sexual after I drove her
02:11:24 drove her home
02:11:26 home um and was um invited in I think that was uh the
02:11:40 in I think that was uh the evening when it uh when the sexual relationship uh
02:11:52 began did you address your mind at all on that
02:11:53 on that evening to the fact you were embarking on sexual activity with a member of the public as a serving police officer in an undercover
02:12:12 identity um I can't recall um I can't recall addressing that question I can't really recall
02:12:23 recall uh what
02:12:26 um what was on my
02:12:40 mind how soon after you first met CTS was
02:12:47 CTS was it before the relationship became sexual
02:12:48 sexual um I can't be sure um
02:12:59 my may have
02:13:08 been may have been a month it may have been slightly
02:13:20 less you've deployed in the middle of June the first reference to CTS in the documents is is 6th of September does that assist you well it assists uh to it assists me
02:13:32 uh to it assists me to
02:13:41 um towards that time frame what a month perhaps I can't be
02:13:52 perhaps I can't be certain can you help us with when it was that the relationship became sexual I think
02:13:53 I think um I think almost certainly after uh a Thursday evening London Greenpeace
02:14:05 Greenpeace meeting and with then visiting the regular nearby pub and
02:14:16 pub and then uh
02:14:19 then uh driving um
02:14:27 driving the um CTS
02:14:30 um CTS um to her
02:14:43 home how well did you get to know CTS in the period that you knew her
02:14:46 her um yes I think um
02:14:54 I think we became uh close friends and
02:15:03 um I think I got to know her
02:15:11 her um you fairly well um I think um first and
02:15:18 foremost I think we had a um
02:15:22 a um friendship but
02:15:34 um I can't remember any more detail about anything sort of specifically that
02:15:51 I um things things we discussed um I can't call to
02:16:00 mind Martin L has given evidence to the inquiry that this relationship was cts's first serious sexual
02:16:09 sexual relationship is that true um I really don't know I don't think
02:16:17 think I um I don't recall that
02:16:26 being said to me by
02:16:28 by um by
02:16:35 CTS um so I I I can't comment more did you have a a conversation at any point about your age
02:17:00 I can't recall that but I wasn't um you you know that I wasn't um hiding the age of let's say um Bob Robinson which
02:17:16 um I wasn't hiding I wouldn't have hidden that age you were about a decade made older than she was um I think that that's probably
02:17:37 correct would CTS have consented to sex with you if she had known who you really were
02:17:43 were um well I can certainly say that the uh certainly
02:17:55 the uh certainly the circumstances in which which we met would never obviously would never have Arisen
02:18:07 um so but it but to your question no I I um um I don't imagine um that she would have
02:18:21 imagine um that she would have done did you consider that issue at all before having sex with CTA yes um not that I can
02:18:29 recall did you use
02:18:35 contraception um I can't
02:18:44 recall you sure about that um well yes I [Music]
02:18:48 [Music] I'm was contracep
02:19:00 I'm was contracep a an issue which crossed your mind at all well I'm sure it was um but I can't recall
02:19:08 recall now did you have any conversation with CTS about
02:19:15 contraception I feel sure that I would have
02:19:16 have done
02:19:18 done um I do
02:19:21 um I do you know genuinely believe that I think um that would have been the case but
02:19:30 but um but I can't recall
02:19:38 it Martin low has given evidence that your uh intimate relationship with CTS was not hidden from London Greenpeace and that people attending Greenpeace meetings knew knew
02:19:54 attending Greenpeace meetings knew knew that there was an intimate relationship is that right I I'm sure that it is
02:20:04 yes does that mean uh that uh when you were together uh there were clear indications perhaps public displays of affection holding hands that sort of
02:20:17 affection holding hands that sort of thing that would signal to people that you were in a relationship um um it it's it's possible um I can't I can't
02:20:29 um I can't I can't recall but it must be possible
02:20:37 yeah well how else do people know that you're in a relationship um well I I
02:20:49 um well I I um might be any any number of um other factors but um
02:20:52 certainly
02:20:58 um yeah I I don't think there was any um any sense at all that um it was a a a relationship that was
02:21:14 um it was a a a relationship that was going to be in any way uh in any sense hidden
02:21:16 hidden from um London you know mutual friends
02:21:26 in in London Greenpeace were you talking about it to them um
02:21:36 them um again I can't I can't recall but um I I'm
02:21:41 um I I'm sure that may have happened yeah and was she talking to people about your relationship the only um clear recollection I have is
02:22:03 the the communication that we both had about the relationship with Martin low and and that recollection has been greatly aided by
02:22:08 by photographs and to some extent Martin L's statement in which have you know been brought to my attention um
02:22:22 my attention um recently he invited you both for dinner didn't he yes could we have up please
02:22:40 36671 uh We've uh to protect cts's privacy we have um put in a redaction you have seen the unredacted photograph haven't you yes yes this is a
02:22:56 photograph haven't you yes yes this is a photograph of you and CTS at that dinner party isn't it yes Martin low has described you as
02:23:08 yes Martin low has described you as devoted to one another did you give that appearance um I wouldn't I I don't think I would have
02:23:19 wouldn't I I don't think I would have described it then in quite those terms I think we were um very close friends I think we um
02:23:27 um were
02:23:29 were quite quite sort
02:23:36 sort romantically involved um but um I think that's
02:23:43 quite well that's my recollection um
02:23:49 um not not quite the same as you know being a devoted couple um in how would you
02:24:01 a devoted couple um in how would you describe how you the pair of you would have appeared to uh the objective bystander in London Greenpeace um two people um who
02:24:15 um two people um who were close close friends and um people might think quite probably quite rightly that we were having
02:24:23 having a sexual
02:24:25 a sexual relationship going out with one another
02:24:35 yes were you devoted to CTS um I
02:24:38 CTS um I was
02:24:40 was um
02:24:50 um emotionally or yeah I was emotionally involved um I was
02:24:52 I was uh close you know close to
02:25:05 her there is an obvious tension isn't there between that answer and the fact it your identity was a sherard well yes in one one sense but equally
02:25:21 um I had [Music]
02:25:31 [Music] um I had by you know by then I certainly I had leared to
02:25:39 um compartmentalize my life to some extent um I was playing the role of Bob Robinson um and um
02:25:52 I I was able
02:25:58 to um reconcile it in in that sense
02:26:06 um this
02:26:12 was this was the uh very first time um
02:26:25 time um in in my marriage which was already you know it was um an
02:26:31 um an established um marriage which I spoke about yesterday and um not withstanding my ability at the time to
02:26:46 time to compartmentalize these two lives of course
02:26:48 course um I knew
02:26:54 um that Not only was um
02:26:59 um CTS um
02:27:10 CTS um being deceived of course uh my wife at the time was being deceived and I was um being unfaithful to my wife at the time um for the very
02:27:24 my wife at the time um for the very first time and so it you know much as I might succeed at the time in carrying that off um keeping up appearances it it clearly
02:27:35 clearly um you know it
02:27:50 um it wasn't it wasn't lost on me and that's why I don't know if this this is quite the right moment but that that's
02:27:51 that's why I this is probably my first opportunity to properly apologize to CTS um the
02:28:08 to CTS um the person behind that um night Cipher
02:28:10 Cipher and again
02:28:11 and again [Music]
02:28:12 [Music] um
02:28:14 um um to you know to my um wife at the time time who knew knew absolutely nothing about it um
02:28:36 absolutely nothing about it um so in both respects I I now today I have a sense of deep regret and um I think that
02:28:38 that that's aent those are heartfelt apologies which I will want to repeat to um the
02:28:50 um the other women in in involved in in Du course CTS was in motionally involved with you wasn't
02:29:04 with you wasn't she well I think yes to to in the terms that I've describe as I recall it I I think just talk I think Martin low goes on to talk about us being a devoted couple to
02:29:16 couple to um um being
02:29:26 some heading towards some
02:29:27 some [Music]
02:29:32 [Music] some close clo um close Union or something I I anyway
02:29:40 anyway um be that as it may however I mean however it appeared to Martin um you know here we are together in his flat and and
02:29:51 flat and and um you know the picture will will speak speak for itself I'm sure is she devoted here no I I don't think so not uh no I
02:30:10 here no I I don't think so not uh no I don't think she was I think we we were very uh we were fond of each other we enjoyed
02:30:12 enjoyed um doing the the various
02:30:24 um doing the the various um events around London Greenpeace and socializing
02:30:31 um and um that
02:30:33 um that was you know I don't I don't think it signal to either of us any Lo a long-term uh
02:30:54 relationship did you give any thought to the fact that you were playing with her emotions
02:31:02 emotions um I don't think I didn't feel at the time that I was playing with her emotions I felt I was being both true to Bob Robinson's
02:31:16 being both true to Bob Robinson's identity and and true to my own um Bob Lambert um I mean I'm not just saying that
02:31:17 that I it it was the truth that that Bob
02:31:31 I it it was the truth that that Bob Robinson was a version of Bob Lambert um simply without the police career and I had to be that person I had to be kind and considerate and affectionate um and and I was and um because
02:31:56 um and and I was and um because I I couldn't be any other way other than being kind and affectionate um I had no other
02:32:01 other experience I had no other sexual experience apart from being um a devoted husband Mr Lambert I'm not going to beat about the bush you didn't have to have sex with her did you
02:32:19 didn't have to have sex with her did you I didn't have no that that's quite I I I accept that and by entering into an intimate relationship with her which was deceitful you were playing with her
02:32:26 with her emotions um I can see now I can see now that that is the case um I really don't think I could see
02:32:41 think I could see that uh at the time not withstanding the fact that I had I had
02:32:50 had I had um you know grave um grave
02:32:57 grave concerns wouldn't it have been obvious if you had given it a moment's thought
02:33:03 um well the only um again I I can only say that I was
02:33:18 um acting um
02:33:30 acting as OB Robinson um I I guess
02:33:39 guess um no I I didn't give it proper proper thought I was acting as um Bob
02:33:44 as um Bob Robinson and without any real
02:33:54 um not not you know not the kind of thought that I would have had certainly you know prior to
02:34:02 prior to being um a member of the SDS no I I clearly I would not have ever um acted in that way it was
02:34:20 in that way it was wholly it happened you know wholly in in this
02:34:22 in this um new role this new identity my question was it would have been obvious if you had addressed your mind to
02:34:36 mind to it do you agree I think um well I can see now that it it should have been why didn't you give cts's emotions any thought
02:34:54 um well I can't
02:35:08 um I can't um actually answer that um I can't recall now really why um why I
02:35:18 didn't can I move now to who
02:35:20 to who in the
02:35:22 in the SDS and in wider special Branch knew that you were sexually involved in an intimate
02:35:31 intimate relationship with
02:35:40 CTS did anyone within the SDS know no I don't think I ever had
02:35:52 know no I don't think I ever had certain knowledge that uh anyone in the SDS either management or um
02:35:56 or um field that um that they were aware did anybody speak to you about
02:36:07 speak to you about it
02:36:16 um not not that I can Rec all when I mean it I mean about CTS at
02:36:29 all um I think I had some I think there was one occasion demonstration where I may
02:36:42 where I may have wondered whether
02:36:51 whether um it might have come to management
02:36:59 attention but um yeah could you expand upon that please um I can't immediately I know I I think I may
02:37:09 I may have spoken to it in one of
02:37:20 have spoken to it in one of my he interviews but I don't think I don't think that it left me
02:37:28 left me with um any any certain knowledge that the
02:37:32 that the um that the relationship was known certainly um I would recall if I had ever
02:37:50 ever told my SDS managers about it and um I'm I'm sure that I didn't yeah that wasn't quite my question no let's look at what you did
02:38:01 question no let's look at what you did say to operation Hearn it's at file one sir tab a Roman numeral 2 ID 7 7
02:38:11 22588 page 13 please
02:38:29 if we look first of all at the answer that you've given at the top of the
02:38:40 page it's I think London Greenpeace you know after the meeting talking to a woman who you know had been at the meeting I mean I think you know she been to a few meetings just getting talking I think you know giving her her a lift home and I think during the course of
02:38:54 home and I think during the course of probably late August September having a sexual relationship with her which you know I think was like there was mutual attraction it was alluded to by my management because we just seemed there
02:39:10 management because we just seemed there was a all the things that I did well not all the things but a lot of the demonstrations and things were subject to photographic coverage and I think on one occasion I remember you know at one
02:39:21 one occasion I remember you know at one of our regular meetings there's a photo where I'm with her not sort I mean we're just kind of together in the photograph
02:39:34 just kind of together in the photograph but that was sufficient that was kind of sufficient I suppose for the management to sort of you know be aware that there was at
02:39:43 was at least
02:40:05 that photographic coverage of demonstrations are we talking here about photographs taken by the esquad surveillance team at a demonstration being
02:40:16 demonstration being shown at a meeting at the SDS Safe House almost certainly yes and that was a common
02:40:20 common occurrence
02:40:34 yes and so if you were in a an in an intimate relationship with a woman and that was obvious from your body language it might be captured in surveillance photography well I'm not sure that it
02:40:53 photography well I'm not sure that it would be no I'm not sure that it would be captured in that uh photography um so yeah I I think the it certainly might
02:41:06 be I wouldn't have thought so not on a a demonstration um but it's yes possible and you have indeed told Hearn
02:41:18 possible and you have indeed told Hearn that there was a photograph of you with her which was sufficient well what did you mean by that well
02:41:26 um I I
02:41:35 can't yeah I'm describing it here um it's a
02:41:36 it's a recollection um of
02:41:41 of um being on a [Music]
02:41:52 [Music] demonstration that I'm saying it was alluded to by management but um I think it
02:41:58 was um probably a a long a long way short of actual
02:42:07 actual um sort of certain certain knowledge
02:42:17 um it's it's a collection but
02:42:25 um I think it doesn't
02:42:35 um I don't feel a I certainly can't add to it um
02:42:46 to it um today can we look at the next few paragraphs um the next four thank you you are then asked did anyone approach
02:42:57 you are then asked did anyone approach you about that at all no did you get a tug to the office basically sort of saying what's that about well I think certainly there was you know a discussion probably probably afterwards in the pub just about you
02:43:09 afterwards in the pub just about you know good to see good to see that you you're you know blending in but I think a sort of repeat of the advice that I'd
02:43:21 a sort of repeat of the advice that I'd had about about not getting not getting emotionally involved you
02:43:28 know appears from what you told operation
02:43:34 operation Hearn doesn't it uh that your managers certainly
02:43:35 certainly saw
02:43:42 saw enough to give you some informal advice well yes potentially um
02:43:49 but
02:43:59 um yeah um I don't think I can add add to that now what was your reaction to this
02:44:11 advice
02:44:16 um I can't recall
02:44:22 was it along the lines of what you'd been told before keep it
02:44:28 casual um yes I I guess I guess it would have
02:44:44 been uh you had our understanding is you had four people in the front office at the SDS at the time dcii weight di Barber DS couch and DS hn4 f um did you say DCI wait yes no I think this preceded him this would be DCI
02:45:06 short which of those four managers had seen the
02:45:08 the photograph I can't I really I can't recall are the circumstance as such that it is likely we're not dealing with certainties here likely
02:45:20 certainties here likely that all four of them had seen
02:45:24 it
02:45:28 um it's yes it must be possible I don't
02:45:37 know and there would certainly have been some of the management team at the meeting in the safe house at which the photograph will
02:45:57 um I'm being told uh that uh DCI weight took over in May 1984 approxim right oh
02:46:09 well yes I stand
02:46:17 corrected when uh did your relationship with CTS end
02:46:27 end um
02:46:30 um certainly I think in the
02:46:46 Autumn uh we're not mentioning precisely which university or which country but is it right uh that she went to study at a university outside the United Kingdom
02:46:54 Kingdom yes when did she do that
02:47:03 um I think
02:47:08 um September
02:47:11 September probably early September or late September I can't recall I mean we've got references to
02:47:22 got references to attending an lgp meeting on the 20th so presumably after that
02:47:34 yes when she went to University uh was it left uh that you were still emotionally
02:47:38 attached
02:47:51 um I think yes I think so yes when did she first tell you that she had a place at the
02:48:03 University and was intending to take it up
02:48:04 up [Music]
02:48:15 [Music] um I can't recall it obviously at some point um some point I guess in in September
02:48:22 it's quite a big moment in someone's life to go to university yes you say
02:48:34 life to go to university yes you say some point in September was that pretty early on in the time you knew her
02:48:37 her um yes
02:48:39 um yes yes so would it be fair to say was it before or after your sexual relationship
02:48:53 started uh I can't recall but I would I would think probably
02:49:07 after and once she had told you you would know that she was going to disappear yes to some degree yes did she come back to London for the Christmas
02:49:17 Christmas break um
02:49:23 I can recall her I can recall one
02:49:27 one return to
02:49:30 return to London
02:49:37 London um I think it was earlier than Christmas I think it was um Autumn
02:49:53 um so uh uh that conjur up a picture in my mind of a weekend during term time is that what you're
02:49:55 you're conveying I
02:50:01 can't talk to the turn time term time but that would follow
02:50:13 yes and did you continue your sexual relationship on that
02:50:19 that occasion that I I can't recall um um but I I do recall um that that was the last time um that I saw
02:50:39 her did there come a point at which you finished the relationship with
02:50:44 her um
02:50:50 yes but I think
02:51:00 um I think there may have [Music]
02:51:02 [Music] been um some mutual understanding uh given uh given
02:51:13 given uh given her
02:51:18 her departure from London when did you finish with her
02:51:23 her um I think it would
02:51:45 be well all I can recall is that the last time we met was um a visit to London her visit to London um
02:51:57 so so that was a finish was she very upset when you finished with her
02:52:04 um yes I think yes to
02:52:09 to yes I think she was
02:52:21 yeah was there an occasion when you plant Ed a tree together to Mark the end of your
02:52:24 of your relationship
02:52:31 um I don't [Music]
02:52:37 [Music] remember the planting of a tree in that context but uh uh I do remember
02:52:50 remember um planting a tree or trees that um I
02:52:56 um I had uh with me at the time as part of my part of my work uh cover
02:53:09 work can you remember when you planted a tree
02:53:11 tree together
02:53:17 no can you remember where you were when you did that [Music]
02:53:25 um finbury
02:53:34 Park Jackie gave evidence to the inquiry that she met CTS in the spring of uh sorry that you met up with CTS in the spring of
02:53:45 spring of 1985 is that right no um um no the um
02:53:56 1985 is that right no um um no the um that's I'm I'm certain that that is not not the case
02:54:07 um why did you get involved in a sexual relationship with
02:54:12 CTS um
02:54:21 I think because
02:54:23 because we became close friends we were
02:54:41 um we were in a friendship and then in a
02:54:50 a um a sexual relationship together um one I
02:55:00 think it's um clearly I can see today it shouldn't have happened but at the time um I allowed it I allowed it to
02:55:16 happen did you do it to bolster your cover I didn't do it to bolster my cover um but the clearly you know it did have
02:55:25 have some
02:55:30 some um benefits to my cover but that wasn't the
02:55:31 the reason why I did
02:55:41 it and can we take it from cts's relative prominence in London green pece that you didn't do it to obtain
02:55:50 intelligence um
02:56:02 no it's very early on in your deployment isn't it it's within the first few months
02:56:10 months yes so there's no question of you having psychologically lost yourself or anything like that not well I'm not qualified to speak to that um um what I I
02:56:27 mean what I would say is that um
02:56:29 um the the circumstances of the um the meeting or the the social occasion Martin Low's flat uh
02:56:46 social occasion Martin Low's flat uh that photograph that that does bring back
02:56:52 back Recollections of what was happening in uh Bob
02:56:59 uh Bob Robinson's life role at that time and I I think
02:57:05 I think that what was happening at that time is uh sort relevant to um
02:57:15 my actions um now
02:57:19 um now I me I mean just
02:57:32 I me I mean just very very briefly um Martin low who was in a sense Martin low was a sort of a bit of
02:57:33 bit of a a
02:57:34 a a mentor he he was um a
02:57:48 mentor he he was um a figure um for both myself and and CTS you know we both newcomers to the group and he invites us around to his flat um and um at that
02:58:05 um at that time I was uh very anxious because Martin low um announced at a London Greenpeace meeting that he'
02:58:14 that he' [Music]
02:58:26 [Music] phoned phoned my uh place of employment and uh whoever answered the phone um didn't know me now that
02:58:34 now that um that was a cause of great uh
02:58:37 great uh concern to me um and um you know you know I had I I had to deal that was one of of the things that
02:59:01 deal that was one of of the things that was one of the things that I was dealing with at that time at a very early stage in my uh deployment it was obviously very uh
02:59:04 very uh stressful
02:59:05 stressful um and I
02:59:08 um and I did I won't go
02:59:18 into the um what I did all the various things there but I I just um put that forward a recent recollection following
02:59:35 forward a recent recollection following reading Martin low statement and looking at the photographs just to um
02:59:37 um um give an indication of um the sort of pressures um that I was under at the
02:59:56 was under at the time let me put the question more simply and a yes or no will suffice you knew who you really were didn't you um I think I never lost sight of who I really
03:00:09 I really was um but equally I think only a qualified uh clinical psychiatrist of the stature of um Gordon harble would be able to um properly
03:00:23 to um properly properly um assess the extent to which playing the role the way that I
03:00:45 playing the role the way that I did um my Alter Ego Bob Robinson um only he would someone of his stature could fully um
03:00:54 fully um assess the impact of of that role on my uh
03:01:02 Behavior entering into a sexual relationship with CTS was completely unnecessary wasn't it I I I can't say I can't really uh answer that it's the reality that this was just
03:01:19 that it's the reality that this was just an opportunity for a sexual relationship with a younger woman no I I think um what something which I think is far more
03:01:29 more simple uh to to to explain is is
03:01:44 simple uh to to to explain is is just the extent to which I was following my instructions you see to form close friendships that was the instruction um and I UND I understood why because
03:01:55 um and I UND I understood why because I'd worked on cquad previously I knew that
03:01:56 that um I knew that the SDS needed to provide information that came from those those levels of friendship
03:02:14 from those those levels of friendship and that's what I was doing from day one um
03:02:27 let's be clear Mr Lambert you had been told not to get emotionally involved you got emotionally involved didn't you I was never
03:02:28 was never told clearly or directly you know you must not get emotionally involved and
03:02:42 must not get emotionally involved and furthermore I was being in you know it seems to me now that I was be being given
03:02:43 given two um
03:02:51 two um conflicting um pieces of advice um you know the need to form close friendships um that is what led
03:03:02 um that is what led to this sexual relationship um without that imperative it wouldn't have Arisen it was not me seeking sexual
03:03:16 was not me seeking sexual gratification as as I read I can
03:03:28 gratification as as I read I can understand why people would would say that um I'm sure that it wasn't and if I had got if I had [Music]
03:03:35 [Music] um kept my emotions entirely out of Bob Robinson's life um I I don't you know I I would have
03:03:53 I think I would have been acting
03:03:56 acting um outside of my my role I'd like to explore with you the implication of that answer is it your evidence to this
03:04:12 your evidence to this inquiry that you were doing it for the job no no I'm saying that it no I'm saying it wasn't s sexual gratification ification what was it well I think it was an
03:04:21 was an unintended consequence of the directions that I had to form close
03:04:35 friendships can we take that down now please and can we go to the subject of the East London animal rights please uh volume Five tab c a
03:04:50 [Music]
03:05:03 20270 uh this is a report dated the 10th of October 1984 I am showing it to you because it is the first report that we have
03:05:18 is the first report that we have recovered about the East London animal rights which is attributed to you uh at paragraph two you will see through some heavy privacy
03:05:28 privacy redactions uh that it is a report uh about the group planning a demonstration at the Bell Lane Market so
03:05:43 demonstration at the Bell Lane Market so this is a demonstration against the meat trade isn't it yes
03:05:49 it yes if you need to look at the report some more you're very welcome to do so but what I'm interested in uh is if we zoom
03:06:02 what I'm interested in uh is if we zoom out a little bit and have a look please at paragraph five at the bottom of the
03:06:14 page says a provisional date for the first demonstration has been set for Sunday the 21st of October 1984 at this stage it is difficult to assess likely support much depending on the publicity afforded to it by the
03:06:27 afforded to it by the buav it is known though that both Islington animal rights and badgers have promised to support the demonstration and this alone could
03:06:39 demonstration and this alone could ensure a total presence of approximately 30 people certainly there is a feeling of optimism amongst members of Ila after their Slaughter house visual in Monier
03:06:53 their Slaughter house visual in Monier Road on Saturday the 29th of September 1984 which they assess attracted 100 supporters uh it is the connection to
03:07:08 supporters uh it is the connection to Islington animal rights and badges that I would like to draw your attention to my question is uh did you get into
03:07:19 my question is uh did you get into Ela through your contacts with Islington animal rights and
03:07:30 badges uh yes yes to some extent uh but by this time there there was probably I would have had
03:07:45 have had opportunities at various um National or London wide demonstrations to meet uh activists from other groups um so there was a sort of
03:08:00 groups um so there was a sort of a um I I was building up a network I guess
03:08:08 guess of the very least contacts people I knew and um that would that would explain it yeah so you might well have come into contact with people from Ila long before this
03:08:14 this yes uh as for your motive for reporting on Ela and mixing with its members is it the same as your motives for
03:08:27 the same as your motives for infiltrating Islington animal rights and badges
03:08:29 badges yes were you active on Essex hunt sabotages uh I may have been one you know once or twice um
03:08:47 know once or twice um my the visual memories of huntt abs that I have all tend to be Sur Union and South southw but yes I
03:08:59 southw but yes I think
03:09:07 think um I think I probably did do some um Essex ones as well earlier
03:09:18 Essex ones as well earlier on uh can we take that document down now and go to the document which is file 5 tab
03:09:20 tab 2520
03:09:36 318 uh this is a uh intelligence report dated the
03:09:38 dated the 19th uh of October
03:09:54 1984 it's an individual report uh on this the woman we are calling Jackie and you of course know who Jackie really is don't you yes yes
03:10:05 U I'll give you a moment just to look perhaps at the first at paragraphs two and three first of all
03:10:27 m
03:10:55 and then if you could look please and refresh your memory from paragraphs 4 and five
03:11:30 thank you and over the page to look at paragraph six and paragraph
03:11:48 7 yes there is a lot of detailed intelligence about Jackie in this document isn't there yes uh so can we take it that uh you knew a good deal about her by this time
03:12:07 uh um yes and did you obtain uh this intelligence from personal knowledge of
03:12:17 Jackie um yes how had you met her
03:12:23 her um I can't be certain um but um I do have a a
03:12:33 a a recollection uh of of talking to
03:12:47 of talking to her at a demonstration at or a protest in
03:12:48 in inside Hackney Town Hall um this that would be around this
03:13:00 time whether that was the very first time I'm not
03:13:11 sure can you recall when you first met her was it by which I mean was it well before the date of this report or not I'm sorry was it before well before the date of this report or
03:13:28 date of this report or not um I wouldn't know I don't think it was necessarily well before because um
03:13:34 um the it could literally have been um a
03:13:41 been um a conversation after that um Hackney Town Hall event of course what what was the date of that I the only report we've not for that sort of demonstration is a
03:13:53 for that sort of demonstration is a month later in in November right okay well
03:14:10 um so but in any event when you know when I submitted the intelligence for this report um clearly you know I I had meta and
03:14:19 and um was able to report report this based on conversation with
03:14:26 with her almost certainly yes were you in a sexual relationship with Jackie by this
03:14:38 with Jackie by this point um I can't recall the I mean you know the the chronology uh I can't recall
03:14:59 uh Jackie at this stage is an activist yes uh but not involved in any serious offender
03:15:06 offender yes and she is 23 years old
03:15:09 old yes in your conversations with Jackie what impression did you form of her back ground and her
03:15:20 ground and her circumstances
03:15:26 um I found the impression that
03:15:35 um she had
03:15:43 um had a impression that she had had
03:15:52 some difficult times
03:15:58 um uh growing up um and that she was when I met her that she had become a very uh
03:16:09 very uh resourceful and
03:16:18 um very [Music]
03:16:19 [Music] um very
03:16:34 capable uh person and were you aware that she was living alone in a bed bedsit in Hackney
03:16:36 Hackney um no when I when I first visited her at home um
03:16:48 home um you know I found that you know her home was really um a
03:16:59 really um a very a very well-kept flat
03:17:05 flat uh a ground floor flat um um
03:17:14 um um a I think it was a a council tency and um
03:17:17 and um was she living alone
03:17:26 alone um I think the very first time I visited there she she had a um a Lo a student
03:17:33 lodger but
03:17:49 um otherwise yes she was living alone she's described it as a really rough estate is that a fair description
03:17:52 um well
03:18:10 I I don't it's not my recollection I'm sure there was a level you know a level of crime roundabout I I didn't uh
03:18:18 ever I didn't experien that it was it was
03:18:25 was um facing sort of facing onto a main road it w it wasn't if it was part of an estate then it was in quite a good a good position it wasn't
03:18:36 it wasn't um a
03:18:43 um a big Council block it was quite a you know quite a nice flat
03:18:56 know quite a nice flat and she's told the inquiry that she had uh left her family and had been living alone since the age of 17 did you know that
03:19:08 17 did you know that well probably not initially and but at some point I got got a general
03:19:14 general um a general impression of that but but equally
03:19:25 I you know came I I I think I came to see that she had quite a good
03:19:30 um um Family Support
03:19:43 um Family Support Network friends and family um you know sh um she was um very um
03:19:49 very competent very
03:19:56 um um
03:20:03 yeah so this is a point at which we need to turn off the YouTube feed yes can that be done and can I be told when it has been done
03:20:23 would would it be easier to take an early
03:20:32 early lunch probably and and probably safer as well we'll resume at 52 all
03:20:45 rise
03:22:45 e e