HN78 Trevor Morris examined extensively on the October 1993 Welling demonstration against the BNP bookshop. Major admissions about a preemptive strike plan to burn down the bookshop, Chris Bambury's role in organizing violence, and detailed intelligence on SWP/ANL tactical planning. Also covers race being used to facilitate access to groups, the Marvel Lewis family's reaction to cover identity use, files on MPs, and the 'hitters' squad concept.
00:21:27 e e
00:22:03 as usual at the beginning of any long session um I must make the usual announcement those uh observing sorry those at the back who have mobile
00:22:15 those at the back who have mobile electronic devices know that they may use them to transmit silently to the outside world what they have seen and heard in the inquiry but only after 10 minutes have
00:22:29 minutes have elapsed 10 minutes must elapse so that so as not to preempt the video stream via YouTube which is subject to a 10-minute delay devices may not be used for recording procedings or taking photographs Mr
00:22:45 photographs Mr B thank you sir uh Mr Morris there's one more meeting uh about the joy Garder Campaign which I'm going to park and come back to later on so I'm going to move now to the Trevor monoville campaign can you recall whether you ever
00:23:03 campaign can you recall whether you ever attended any of that campaign's meetings I can't recall is it possible that you did um if I see the report I'll probably have a better understanding as well we
00:23:16 have a better understanding as well we haven't got any we haven't recovered any reporting and so I'm just I can't remember can't remember is it possible could be could we have up please uh MPS 0728 969
00:23:39 this is the special demonstration squad's annual report for
00:23:42 19945 could we go to page five
00:23:54 please and uh at the top of the page um these
00:23:58 these are this is a list of uh officers who were
00:24:00 were deployed at the time and we've had to gist but the top entry relates to you detective Sergeant Trevor Morris s swp Hackney branches ANL and Associated
00:24:12 Hackney branches ANL and Associated anti-establishment groups and ethnic minorities in East London transferred to Tottenham branch of s swp in January
00:24:30 1995 is it right that you transferred from the dolon Branch to the Tottenham branch of the swp in January 1995 um I guess so if it says that I think it must be why did you move branches don't
00:24:48 branches don't know was it to facilitate access to any particular group of people I can't call uh was it because there was um
00:24:59 call uh was it because there was um concern that there might be tension arising from The Trial of the officers in the joy g a
00:25:12 in the joy g a case um could be um it might be that the branch I was in was
00:25:20 was um being less fruitful maybe who knows um but I don't really recall why that happened obviously I lived up that area so that might have been been another Factor why do I not go to my local
00:25:31 to my local branch
00:25:43 branch okay now taking stock having been through a lot of reports of your reporting on Justice campaigns anti-racist work and so forth do you feel that your race facilitated your access without
00:25:54 race facilitated your access without doubt and do you feel that your race was used used by your managers to facilitate that access I guess use as much as the BBC or lawyers or um schools or Health
00:26:16 BBC or lawyers or um schools or Health Service or whatever would do with in in in terms of you know um working with others from different societies and different uh the modern word is communities now so I guess in so far as that's concerned
00:26:31 that's concerned potentially uh the fact of the matter is I don't specifically see that we were looking
00:26:32 looking at um anti-racist groups we were looking at the activities excuse me of the S swp entering such groups ANL etc
00:26:50 etc I'd like to I'm going to read now some passages from the commissioner's opening statement for this phase of the inquir is hearing okay they are
00:27:04 inquir is hearing okay they are admissions made by the commissioner at the start of this hearing this commissioner no yes presid commissioner okay and the question I'm going to have for you when I've read it is whether and to what
00:27:15 whether and to what extent you agree with these
00:27:28 concessions paragraph 71 it is particularly indefensible that many of the anti-racism campaigns mentioned in SDS reports were Seeking Justice for members of the black and
00:27:41 Justice for members of the black and Asian communities in London and were attempting to hold the MPS itself accountable for the way in which it policed those communities the MPS
00:27:55 policed those communities the MPS accepts the corrosive effect this type of discriminatory policing has on public trust and apologizes
00:28:06 on public trust and apologizes unreservedly for this the fact that the SDS reported on these groups was a
00:28:17 SDS reported on these groups was a result of a critical failure on the part of its managers and Senior managers within
00:28:23 within mpsb to ensure that SDS deployments were conducted in accordance with proper professional and ethical standards it is also an example of unacceptable political policing by
00:28:38 political policing by mpsb which the home office had unequivocally criticized in 1983 in response to an intelligence report on the activities of the greater London council's Police committee the
00:28:55 London council's Police committee the MPS accepts corporate responsibility for these
00:29:02 these failings although there have been areas of progress since the t2 period racism and
00:29:02 and discrimination remain an enduring challenge within the MPS substantial reforms are underway to address the organizational culture and
00:29:13 organizational culture and discriminatory behavior and conduct
00:29:24 discriminatory behavior and conduct within the force the MPS is committed to rebuilding the trust of black Asian and minority ethnic communities in London and then paragraph 80 sexual relationship should not have occurred reporting on Justice and
00:29:41 occurred reporting on Justice and anti-racism groups who pose no criminal or public order threat should not have occurred and would not occur today if you would like to read the text I can hand you the document the tabs with the highlighted passages right I think I
00:29:52 highlighted passages right I think I understood what was said um yeah I mean if I could see the document as well if I this could be handed to to the witness
00:30:01 please which
00:30:06 one which paragraph are you going to
00:30:18 read there two I'm being asked to read the two paragraphs which precede um I will do so uh during the t2 period 1983 to 1992
00:30:28 to 1992 the SDS also reported on several individuals who were involved in political and social justice campaigns
00:30:39 political and social justice campaigns Family Justice campaigns and Community organizations these included the Broadwater Farm defense campaign the Hackney campaign against the police Bill the Hackney police monitoring group The Colin roach defense campaign Family
00:30:56 Colin roach defense campaign Family Support committee and the East London campaign against racist attacks and police harassment Elara the the SS's reporting indicates these groups were of interest to other
00:31:07 these groups were of interest to other groups such as a troops out movement and the s swp that were already being targeted by uos with two exceptions the intelligence reports produced by these
00:31:21 intelligence reports produced by these officers were not are not indicative of direct targeting of these campaigns by the SDS but rather of uos following existing targets into the those groups the majority of the individuals that the
00:31:33 the majority of the individuals that the SDS reported on in these groups were not engaged in any criminal or subversive activity and did not present any risk of serious public disorder it follows that SDS offices should have been told by
00:31:45 SDS offices should have been told by their managers not to report on those groups and in those cases where uos were following other legitimate targets they
00:31:56 following other legitimate targets they should not have obtained Intelligence on individuals in those groups groups or that intelligence should not have been retained by mpsb if I can now hand the document to the witness
00:32:14 please thank you very much
00:32:43 so just reading the first part of it 71 um I guess let's note the first aspect and I can't remember who the learnard writer was but as he stated the past is a foreign country okay so what happened then what happens now are two completely different things but the perspective
00:32:55 different things but the perspective that I see from that is one I would say that the anti-racist campaigns as I said to you the campaigns were not in any way shape or means if that's what they were
00:33:09 shape or means if that's what they were anti-racist campaigns the um well I can speak for myself were not the aim of what was being written the aim of what was being written was how does that
00:33:20 was being written was how does that relate to the people who were trying to enter those organizations and what may happen and my aspect of that was to pass that on to where I knew it would go in the first instance to the desk for them
00:33:34 the first instance to the desk for them to further assess the situation I would say the
00:33:36 say the commissioner was not an npsp officer and I'd also say that 98% of police work has nothing to do with npsb so your big problem always
00:33:48 problem always was I was going to say is but that's no longer the case always was that the vast that the police in general did not
00:34:03 that the police in general did not understand the National Security remate of special Branch even though he could be a senior officer running it um so that's the first thing so the understanding of what we were looking for in special Branch was different to what they would perceive to be what police should be doing from their
00:34:15 police should be doing from their perspective that was a massive problem with the branch always was and I would suggest would have continued all the way
00:34:26 suggest would have continued all the way through I don't know why that's the case which is what I'll add to this is because in practically every other country the security service is the police service and you can name what you could say a country off from now to me and I'm going to tell you that that
00:34:38 and I'm going to tell you that that security service all the Scandinavians all the Germans or whatever they're all the police service is the security
00:34:52 the police service is the security service so it seems that other countries are able to deal with this issue but somehow the United Kingdom finds it problematic I don't understand it
00:34:59 it um that's all I'd say so for me if this is what the commissioner of the Metropolis wrote I would say he understands very little of what one section the special Branch not the SDS
00:35:11 section the special Branch not the SDS that's IM material it's a full holy part special Branch what the special Branch was doing and why it was doing it that would be my perspective um if I could have the document back please
00:35:31 you you were here in the hearing room yesterday morning to hear my learned friend summarize the evidence of Marvel Lewis weren't you yes absolutely I've
00:35:43 Lewis weren't you yes absolutely I've got something to answer to that actually the
00:35:49 the strength of their feeling MH was very clear probable yeah they
00:35:53 yeah they consider that for you to have used
00:36:00 their sons Brothers MH identity as a black child who died of CLE cell Amia anemia to
00:36:12 CLE cell Amia anemia to infiltrate black Justice groups and anti- police groups and
00:36:26 groups and anti- police groups and anti-racist groups was morally repugnant MH do you agree no first and foremost I'll say it again I never INF trated those organizations I was an swp member going
00:36:34 going to um basically areas that the S swp was going to you know it just happened to be secondly I now realize and my wife had
00:36:45 secondly I now realize and my wife had contacted me last night to tell me I did not and sorry answer to what we were talking about yesterday I told you my memory is bad my wife said that I had
00:36:58 memory is bad my wife said that I had said to her I knew what name I wanted to use my wife said that I had said to her they've given me a name and I've got to use this name so I didn't actually collect the name the
00:37:09 didn't actually collect the name the name was given to me by somebody else I don't know by whom I can't recall but she told me I had said that to her that's all I can say about that because I didn't need to use the name
00:37:21 because I didn't need to use the name and it was never my intention to use the name now I'm not saying because of the situation that you're saying it was a process
00:37:32 saying it was a process that was regularly used by all sorts of individuals be they criminals be they intelligence service officers and I'm I'm talking now from foreign countries foreign Intelligence Officers trying to come into the United Kingdom by our own
00:37:44 come into the United Kingdom by our own Services all of them who all used these this same Jackal process and I looked it up last night in 19 in 2003 actually
00:38:02 up last night in 19 in 2003 actually when computerization was coming in the minister in charge at the home office said
00:38:03 said [Music]
00:38:11 [Music] 1,300 people in that year alone had used the Jackal technique to obtain
00:38:15 obtain identities and previously you go back it was many many many more and that's annually many many more and his task was to get that number down this is a home office Minister who said that you can
00:38:27 office Minister who said that you can look it up you see it on the net so the point making is this was a regular technique used by everybody and I don't know if 10 other people weren't using that same identity because that's what was going on now as I said to you I'll
00:38:44 was going on now as I said to you I'll say again I didn't require and did not want the identity and you could argue that I was being a little bit bullish with the management when I said I'm not interested in the identity but that was foed upon me
00:38:57 can I move to a different topic now
00:39:20 [Music]
00:39:41 so being asked by the council for the family okay um to remind you of a paragraph in your witness
00:39:53 witness statement uh which par that 35076 please
00:39:59 page 16 so it's page 35 in this document is it the UR is 3507 it's coming up on the screen okay it's on the screen sub paragraph D at the top of the
00:40:13 paragraph D at the top of the page I was instructed to create a cover identity using a deceased child's details by researched at the birth and death registry office I cannot remember who told me to do this I think SDS was sent copies of possible identities and
00:40:28 sent copies of possible identities and then I and I then chose one I might have scrolled through files I was told to look for one that had died relatively young and not in a car accident or something traumatic to avoid linking my
00:40:42 something traumatic to avoid linking my cover name to a memorable this is what I said to you before where do we get our memories from are they actual are they not and I've just told you what my wife said I had said to her so clearly that's not
00:41:00 correct and as it says at the beginning of my stud to the best of my knowledge could we take that down please could we move to completely different topic sure absolutely files on members of
00:41:17 absolutely files on members of parliament and elected politicians did you ever
00:41:19 you ever see a file on an elected
00:41:36 politician I was say hundreds many many many and do you have an understanding of the circumstances in which such files are
00:41:37 are kept well they all Mark secret um which was more special Branch work anyway the government um uh position was a minimum for that secret probably top secret um
00:41:56 for that secret probably top secret um there'd be an SB special Branch registry and um they would relate to whatever it might be
00:42:06 we saw the your reporting your reports whoever finish them off had put the words
00:42:07 words MP after the name rather than the file reference would in fact why was why was MP used inad I don't know because they may or may not have had a file but you
00:42:18 may or may not have had a file but you would have thought they'd put mentions but as far as I'm concerned um yeah in spr when I was um
00:42:31 spr when I was um yeah there were many files on on [Music]
00:42:33 [Music] um
00:42:35 um MPS thank you could we move now to distribution of your reporting we've
00:42:47 distribution of your reporting we've touched upon this already but there are a couple of reports I'd like to put to you specifically the first of all the first one is 07441 91 so this is tab 122
00:43:11 [Music]
00:43:23 uh this is um an event Pro forer for a demonstration due to be then due to be held on the 6th of February 1993 the report is dated 4 days earlier from you see on the bottom left 2nd of February
00:43:46 February 1993 and usually the place is the plasta republique in Paris and usually for SDS reporting that is the organization SOS racism nature of the event an anti-racist March and demonstration the organization other organizations listed are the anti-nazi league 500 plus ANL British ANL are
00:44:03 league 500 plus ANL British ANL are listed as likely to attend disorder from the UK contingent assessed as unlikely the text says the British anti-nazi league has raised over 500
00:44:14 anti-nazi league has raised over 500 people wishing to attend this March the route of which will be from the plasta republique to the plasta Nason in Paris the British contingent comprises and then it lists a number of places with coaches mhm
00:44:32 places with coaches mhm uh if we could take that down and then go back a page to see
00:44:43 the distribution mhm uh we see that it's two copies to go to box 500 MH DCI Edmonson to see and then I'm interested in the uh manuscript underneath it says is it dc2 or
00:44:55 is it dc2 or dcz has has been informed verbally on
00:45:07 dcz has has been informed verbally on the 5th of February 93 of the contents of 1A Source protection has been stressed what or who are dcz or
00:45:16 dc2 well I worked in the Els as I said to you my languages were German and Dutch um we would speak to our European colleagues on issues and this is exactly one that would be so our European
00:45:28 one that would be so our European colleagues in this instance rather than the DST would have been the a from the French and they would have been informed that this was what was happening and
00:45:41 that this was what was happening and there was a contingent coming from the United Kingdom now the d g or
00:45:47 d g or gcz may well be the case because I would imagine on this job that somebody from you we had no cover at all as a general rule in in SDS uh from any protective background
00:46:08 SDS uh from any protective background but I imagine on this one because it was going to be a big demonstration and it was uh uh imparis and the uh um
00:46:11 um um the French police can be quite aggressive um that it was something whereby we probably would have sent something to work
00:46:23 would have sent something to work handing glove with the French are French equivalents a thank you could we take that down please and could we have Up
00:46:30 32982 tab
00:46:45 131 this is an event Pro former for an event
00:46:47 event on at the 20 if I've read it if I can read it properly 25th of March 1993 the date of the report is the 23rd so it
00:47:02 date of the report is the 23rd so it um a prospective report and it's about a planned
00:47:04 planned picket of the Greek Embassy uh what I am interested in is the marking under comment which says T20
00:47:34 T20 dctn 48 informed a on the 23rd of March 1993 am I understanding it correctly that this is an instance of the SDS passing prospective public order intelligence direct to to20 as I said that would would have gone I would imagine I don't think they would get
00:47:47 imagine I don't think they would get well obviously you're saying they got the full report can I just have a look at the report again just to see what's in it
00:48:01 can you just scroll down event performer sorry up sorry from event
00:48:18 performer right okay so it's not saying anything about what the source is it's not saying I would suggest the the following has been receiv received from not secret and liable source okay
00:48:36 um I would have thought it would have gone to aalas on first to be further sanitized yeah well the reason I'm asking is the evidence we've heard is that normally things go up to C Squad and out through C Squad but this appears to be a report where the dissemination
00:48:51 to be a report where the dissemination is direct perhaps because it was close in time yeah and it may well be that there was an sp sp officer in there who actually took the report and then San SES it
00:48:58 SES it down thank you could we take that down uh now want to move to Welling starting with the
00:49:12 with the demonstration on the 15th of May could we have up please 33905 which is tab 135
00:49:28 and if we could have the next page
00:49:38 please this is a report it's dated the 18th of May I can tell you from the third page and so it's expose facto
00:49:49 third page and so it's expose facto about the demonstration on the 15th of May which took place in plumstead and Welling um organized by the ANL demonstration against the British national party in involving the swp
00:50:00 national party in involving the swp Indian workers Association militant uh labor and various other anti-racist groups an estimated 1500 people were present it says that the mood was angry and disorder was
00:50:13 and disorder was prevented did you attend this
00:50:22 demonstration I'm just going have to read some of it to see
00:50:58 I'd be lying if I had I remember um it it is likely CU I went to more
00:51:06 demonstrations if you weren't at the demonstrate well let's let's let's see how we go uh before the demonstrators arrived at plumstead stewards had been given instructions by the organizers the object of the exercise
00:51:19 organizers the object of the exercise was to be a march on the BMP premises not withstanding police measures to prevent this can you recall being on a March in spring of 1993 which was targeted at the BMP
00:51:33 1993 which was targeted at the BMP premises and opposed by police in my mind there was quite a few matches like that I highly likely that I was on the
00:51:44 that I highly likely that I was on the March looking at it again more closely highly
00:51:53 likely I this is what what happens when you get press the same way as I said on as you saw on the last thing you were saying to me that you said you'd you had made this identity when you get pressed this is what happens you say something that's not necessarily the case so I'm
00:52:07 that's not necessarily the case so I'm saying looking at this now trying to be precise um it's highly likely I was on this because I was at most demonstrations but I you asked me whether I recall it I don't recall it if numbers were sufficient the Marchers were to try to force their way through
00:52:21 were to try to force their way through police lines at upper Wickham lane and then to the
00:52:26 Bookshop I may be pushing my Lu give given the state of your memory but the question I have for you is whether you can
00:52:34 can recall um anything about how you got this
00:52:36 this intelligence to be fair I can't other than being on the demonstration if it is me other than being on the demonstration as I said to you and and you know not
00:52:51 as I said to you and and you know not untruly when I left this 30 years ago I attempted to dump all this information out of my
00:52:55 out of my head and it's been a battle to drag it back
00:53:01 back um so you know if you want the truth do I recall it no I don't does this look like something I would write yes it does if the first frontal assault failed
00:53:13 if the first frontal assault failed activists at the rear were to turn and lead the March through opening forced through weaker police lines into the Bookshop via back streets organizers assume that the first assault would draw police away from the Apparently
00:53:24 police away from the Apparently compliant Marchers and at the rear and enable a second successful attack sounds like me and it may well be the
00:53:41 case now with this Intelligence on file arising from May that might have had an effect might it on those
00:53:55 on those deciding how to police the event in October
00:54:04 potentially they would have seen for themselves what happened if the police were there as you say they were there obviously they would have made a report as well um so there' have been a mixture of the police actually making the report themselves my potentially my
00:54:19 themselves my potentially my reporting the desk offic would try and grab all this stuff together uh
00:54:26 grab all this stuff together uh especially if he was told there's a big demonstration coming up on such such a time he would try and drag everything together this is uh about what was available either from Secret sources from open sources etc etc uh some technical sources if technical aspects are on there there may well be agent
00:54:41 are on there there may well be agent sources if agents were in there all of that's dragged together by the desk officer he looks at that she looks at that and makes a decision as to what they think passes that to AR aison clean it down this is what we think might
00:55:00 happen the fact that you had reported that the back streets might be used would be material intelligence for somebody planning the policing response absolutely the next one
00:55:13 absolutely uh if we go over the page the low number of demonstrators virtually equaled by the police and the apparent preparedness of the police to deal with any trouble dissuaded the leaders from instigating the plan so I
00:55:27 leaders from instigating the plan so I beg your pardon I think I remember that now that sort of pH that yeah I may well have been there yeah so in the event nothing
00:55:41 yeah so in the event nothing happens but on file is your report about the tactics that were planned I know that you watched Dr German's
00:55:49 German's evidence last week she is this is this where this was from because that might be my memory then is was this in Dr German's evidence it was right so that might be my memory of it all she denied any
00:56:01 of it all she denied any such plans and tactics well she denied plans she did say that occasionally the back streets might be
00:56:18 used do you stand by this report if I wrote it I stand by it might you have overstated the level of planning that's um
00:56:29 um how should I put it intelligence officer 101 write what's there not what you
00:56:40 101 write what's there not what you think so I'm writing what's there that's what I would have written if that were the case then I'd be writing it as I perceived it and saw it um that
00:56:42 um that wouldn't that would be something that obviously somebody putting together a tactical plan would consider having put
00:56:57 tactical plan would consider having put many tactical plans together not in this Arena but you you know you know my Red Zone stuff like can't speak about so having put together a whole host of tactical plans uh not necessarily in the United Kingdom but elsewhere um you don't just take something that's
00:57:12 um you don't just take something that's come as if you're going to be a tactical person you take into account all of the aspects that may arise uh and I know this is a different task than what I was doing but it's the same concept you you're going to look at every eventuality can we look at the second paragraph uh in an attempt to
00:57:24 second paragraph uh in an attempt to salvage some credibility the organizers distributed the relatively small number of black demonstrators strategically throughout the march to enhance its
00:57:37 throughout the march to enhance its Blackness additionally Gary mcfarlain a leading black in the swp made an impassion speech calling for a concerted effort in conjunction with youth Against Racism the youth wing of militant and
00:57:48 Racism the youth wing of militant and panther UK against the BMP and racist attacks this said McFarland would bring at least 10,000 demonstrators onto the
00:58:03 at least 10,000 demonstrators onto the streets of Welling and the police would be powerless to stop them marching on the
00:58:16 the BMP first of all can you recall whether or not you were given any instructions as to where in the March you should be as I said to you before I can't really remember the incident but um wherever we were told to be is where we would be um if that
00:58:27 would be um if that if that was the case and if I written this then I would have done what exactly what was
00:58:33 what was said um can you recall Mr
00:58:39 recall Mr mcfallen wanting to bring at least 10,000 demonstrators to Welling to overwhelm the police Mr mfin always wanted to have a lot of people there
00:58:50 wanted to have a lot of people there yeah it is clear that the violence shown by the Panthers on the 8th of May has increased the stakes in the battle for credibility amongst the antira groups the ANL swp is now desperate to shrug off shrug off its white woolly liberal
00:59:04 off shrug off its white woolly liberal image and to reassure the rank and file that the organization had not missed the boat in the anti-bmp campaign s swp ANL participation in future events in the
00:59:19 participation in future events in the area will be carefully considered and it is likely that the next big demonstration will be the subject of a full National call out especially if
00:59:39 full National call out especially if there is another serious racial incident locally was it your perception that the ANL swp thought it had a white woolly liberal
00:59:45 image this is an interesting one it probably did not think it had a white willly liberal image but that is the image that activists particular of color had of the s swp
00:59:57 color had of the s swp and I know that from speaking with a whole lot of other activists who were not in thep you see what you need excuse me what you need to remember is that just because you're in one organization
01:00:09 just because you're in one organization doesn't mean to say that you don't have connections with others and indeed in my case quite a few of them wanted to pull me over to their organization so they'd say they'd speak to me why are you in that you should be
01:00:23 to me why are you in that you should be with example blah blah which is later on when I was about when I was to leave that black nationalist perspective is what I took to leave the S swb but if the leadership wasn't aware
01:00:34 swb but if the leadership wasn't aware of that image why would they be I don't say they weren't aware of it i' say they didn't want to be aware of it if that's what my word
01:00:46 it if that's what my word said oh it's not going up and down um did
01:00:48 did you under what was the source of your intelligence that the a L wanted to do
01:01:06 intelligence that the a L wanted to do something about its white woolly liberal image how did you know I was relatively close
01:01:09 close to a few of the people in the ANL
01:01:24 hierarchy when you say relatively close I would say we were pretty close to some of them in the Iraqi yeah I know that's been disputed cuz that before um but you know it's not the case how often were you meeting with people like Chris bambury I can't remember exactly but
01:01:39 bambury I can't remember exactly but Chris and I got on well I like the fell I assume he liked me I mean obviously you should invite him to the thingy um I got on okay with Julie Waterson I didn't realize she was dead until the doctor
01:01:53 realize she was dead until the doctor said that so you could have invited her uh mind you the may have spouted the party line um but I got on well with these guys um and some of the other
01:02:09 these guys um and some of the other people I had a general relationship with uh I'm talking leaders now um thing you pel people like that can you help us with how often you might have seen Julie Waton well Julie Waton quite a bit to be fair because she was the leader of the
01:02:24 fair because she was the leader of the ANL um and bambury quite a bit because he wanted to to create this
01:02:35 body could we um go back to page one please in the
01:02:44 cover that thank you could that be expanded thank you this is a security service consumer comments sheet thank you very much for this report on the ANL 15th of May demonstration it is
01:02:59 15th of May demonstration it is interesting in that Source thinks the next demo will have to be a huge one forl to retain credibility information on the proportion of the Marchers who were from the different groups proportion of
01:03:10 the different groups proportion of blacks would be useful were most white middle class any news of ANL involvement in the June AR March so amongst the questions being
01:03:24 March so amongst the questions being asked there by the security service is a request for the proportion of people who were
01:03:34 were black on that March were you aware that the security service was seeking such
01:03:41 information I I would have known that such information would have been of interest to the security service as it would have been of interest to the branch so would have reported it directly I'm not aware that somebody you
01:03:56 directly I'm not aware that somebody you know from the office came to me and said do you know what the proportion are I'm not aware of that um they probably if I didn't report the numbers
01:04:07 probably if I didn't report the numbers or the potentials for it then they would have just tried to look at the next
01:04:20 have just tried to look at the next report I did and whether that had it um tasking that is quite difficult I think could we go now please to 3312
01:04:23 3312 tab 144 please
01:04:30 it's not
01:04:48 moving this if we can go to the next page uh is an event performer for a an event on the 20th of June 1993 and the event is uh a meeting at the how KV Center anti-fascist Collective uh meeting
01:05:04 anti-fascist Collective uh meeting meeting of the unity group Mark MCA was the organizer and 60 plus people present uh there a very large list of various groups that were
01:05:15 various groups that were present can you recall attending this meeting I believe I did if we look at the source comment at the bottom of the first
01:05:27 first page it says no anti-fascist action representative was noted at the meeting
01:05:39 representative was noted at the meeting one of the main aims of the unity group is to avoid AFA influence particularly that of red action in anti-racist matters it is believed that the direct action movement the other constituent group within AFA has sent
01:05:53 group within AFA has sent representatives to other Unity group AFC meetings
01:05:56 meetings uh
01:05:58 uh why did the organizers not want to have AFA and especially red action
01:06:15 involvement this is a Unity group can I just could you just drop down the so I can see the participants again organizations okay so the anti-nazi league is
01:06:19 league is there
01:06:25 there however uh in terms of the whole group I would suggest that they didn't want um combative action for most of them maybe
01:06:37 combative action for most of them maybe Panther bit different because it did say they did say they would you know carry actions and youth Against Racism also would carry actions but the vast majority of them I would suggest would
01:06:52 majority of them I would suggest would want it to be peaceful you knew that if you had Dam or red action or AFA that that
01:06:53 that peacefulness was questionable
01:07:01 when it came to fighting with fascists would it be fair to say that the red action were pretty hardcore correct if we look now on the second
01:07:14 correct if we look now on the second page under points of interest at the uh first paragraph thank you
01:07:16 you um you can scan the paragraph but I'm interested in the last sentence which reads the ANL had agreed to back the yr while the AR declined on the grounds
01:07:32 while the AR declined on the grounds that a March past the BMP Bookshop would result in violence and confrontation which the arra is opposed to and of course what they're talking about is what would become the October demonstration isn't it would it be a
01:07:48 demonstration isn't it would it be a fair analysis to say we've got three tiers of
01:07:58 tiers of groups we've got one extreme the AR that doesn't want to go near the book shock because of trouble we've got a group in the middle that are prepared to go to the Bookshop even though there might be
01:08:09 even though there might be trouble but they don't want the third group red action and AFA there because they're too likely to cause trouble is that a fair
01:08:24 analysis it is other than the fact that I would say that the
01:08:34 ANL SL swp leadership wouldn't have wanted trouble to emanate from them it doesn't figure that that isn't the case that because he may be speaking with f tongue on that that that that if
01:08:45 with f tongue on that that that that if trouble took place and it wasn't clearly
01:08:57 trouble took place and it wasn't clearly attributable to them that that in itself would not be negative so it's all about who appears is to be the one causing trouble as I said it's very nuanced at that stage there is no plan for
01:09:05 for violence at the Bookshop by the leadership making the organized perspectives yes can we go now to tab c145
01:09:17 c145 33239 please
01:09:29 [Applause]
01:09:41 this is a report dated the 29th of June 1993 and if we could have the first two paragraphs of text underneath the paragraph one so the paragraph beginning with anti-nazi League thank you anti-nazi League ANL leader aul Patel with the backing of the Central
01:09:54 Patel with the backing of the Central Committee of the social Workers Party swp seems to be steering the ANL into closer cooperation with other anti-racist groups the ANL will
01:10:06 anti-racist groups the ANL will participate in a United anti-racist demonstration the national Unity demonstration in Beckley on the 16th of October to force the closure of the British national party Bookshop in Welling and Patel has sent a letter to
01:10:18 Welling and Patel has sent a letter to all the major anti-racist anti-fascist groups soliciting support and money for the event
01:10:28 the event Source comment the ANL participation in the unity demonstration is motivated purely by self-interest the object being to recruit new members for the ANL and the swp joint posters issued by the ANL
01:10:40 the swp joint posters issued by the ANL and other groups will be complemented by other holy ANL leaflets and placards the future of the anti-racist unity movement is by no means
01:10:55 is by no means assured you infiltrated the swp for about four
01:11:00 years their commitment to anti-racism was genuine wasn't it yes theps yeah s swp's commitment to the class struggle was
01:11:13 genuine I beg your pardon the S swp's commitment to the class struggle was genuine but didn't that include as part of their analysis that racism structurally resulted from capitalism
01:11:32 there's an aspect where that is true and for some of the comrades absolutely true whether that is wholly and fully the case as to the leadership May well be questionable don't get me wrong I'm not
01:11:46 questionable don't get me wrong I'm not saying that that that anti-racism was is an aspect that they you know happy with but if you're actually juggling the two class will always win so it depends upon what what you're seeking because
01:11:59 upon what what you're seeking because what you got to realize and understand is that some of the um people of color who are on these demonstrations they are relating to it
01:12:15 demonstrations they are relating to it because of color and and that's it class is not the factor whereas for the anti for the swp the factor is class and R just happens to be part of it and I give you the example of why that's the case we you know Rwanda was
01:12:27 that's the case we you know Rwanda was the biggest loss of life of people the quickest ever so basically a million people died in a 100 days we covered that practically
01:12:41 nowhere in the swp I'm talking about that gives you the example that I'm that I'm talking to you about because of course it's too di it's too problematic it's black people killing black people and there is no Advantage for them in
01:12:53 and there is no Advantage for them in it what I'm suggesting is that you can lead the swp and naturally want more members to spread your anti capitalist message and
01:13:08 spread your anti capitalist message and still also comprehensively reject racism at the same time is there no no contradiction between the two I think there is a contradiction because if in latter years let's take President
01:13:21 if in latter years let's take President Obama what is he for every black person n on in the world the fact that he was voted as the President of the United States would be
01:13:32 President of the United States would be of the utmost interest and pride for the anti uh for the S swp he'd just be a
01:13:43 traitor tying you understand the connection I'm making tying that back in to the
01:13:45 to the comments that you've made in the
01:13:53 report were you not being overly cynical I don't think I'm being cynical no because I've just said to you if the ruling Elite are blacks it makes no difference to them but they're not here well they're
01:14:08 them but they're not here well they're not here but but but the point is well not that's not true actually because even at this time you had some black MPS Etc who were clearly of the right which would have been an Anapa to the S
01:14:22 would have been an Anapa to the S swp can we take that document down now please and go to tab 1503
01:14:34 801 now this is a report dated
01:14:50 the 23rd of July 1993 about the forthcoming Welling demonstration on the 16th of October
01:14:51 October uh this is the first specific event proformer the others have been reports
01:15:02 proformer the others have been reports on on buildup meetings it says building for the above demonstration is already well underway back in June the ANL leadership invited support from all the main
01:15:15 invited support from all the main anti-racist organizations and it would appear that most of them have pledged their support indeed although arra refused initially it may well be it has to attend or risk isolation the ANL and yre have agreed to
01:15:26 isolation the ANL and yre have agreed to work together to try and ensure a really significant number of people turn out on this occasion with the organizers hoping for an absolute minimum of 10,000 protesters to achieve their schools
01:15:40 protesters to achieve their schools colleges universities and youth clubs as well as workplaces have all been targeted much work also be undertaken in racially Cosmopolitan areas in order to woo youth from the ethnic minorities the
01:15:58 woo youth from the ethnic minorities the swp has decided upon a national call out for this event and already posters have been issued to every UK Branch during Marxism 93 in fact the Central Committee has directed that these posters be fly
01:16:21 has directed that these posters be fly posted by the end of the week and if we could um collapse that Zoom box please we can see that so far as disorder is concerned the assessment is at that stage is that it was possible so it's right isn't it this was preparing for the big one mhm uh was it
01:16:36 preparing for the big one mhm uh was it right that schools were targeted yep and what sort of age group were the S swp andl hoping to that would have been teenagers and was there a reason why uh they sought to work as I said previously they're more militant as a general rule
01:16:49 they're more militant as a general rule they perceive them to be that's the it's not always the case but you know one perceives that to be the case and obviously I was wrong and the report you know that's I can only assess because AR did their own
01:17:00 only assess because AR did their own thing on at the end this is obviously your best assessment correct at the time at the time correct and at this time it did not seem violence was all that
01:17:14 did not seem violence was all that certain and also the numbers I was wrong with as
01:17:18 with as well could we go now to 24344 which is tab8
01:17:35 this is in fact a report about a plan demonstration at Brick Lane which is going to take part going to take place on the 26 of September
01:17:47 on the 26 of September 1993 and it discusses uh likely numbers for that let's just look at it um 26th of September Brick Lane BM P
01:17:59 um 26th of September Brick Lane BM P Mass paper sale 2 to 300 BMP people 5 to 700
01:18:04 700 opposition High uh risk of disorder event opposed by anti-fascist organizations mood likely to be violent and hostile to the police if we go over the
01:18:22 page and we see at the top paragraph um your report about the state of play but at the end of that report not withstanding this
01:18:35 of that report not withstanding this significant event in B Brick Lane it is clear that the priority is going to be the national callout at Welling isn't it MH and if we go now to the paragraph of text on page
01:18:46 text on page three feeling is running very high at present that the BNP can be driven from the Streets of London the Bookshop continues to be the focal
01:19:00 the Bookshop continues to be the focal point for resentment and the ground Sr of opinion is that it must be destroyed the means differs according to the propensity for violence amongst the various
01:19:15 various organizations now where had you got destroyed from well this is obviously a conglomeration actually of reports not just mine I see that already um but and
01:19:33 just mine I see that already um but and and I think the other person writing it as well would have got the same feel from his
01:19:37 from his Branch but I think mine was stronger than that I think I got it from um I think this is the era when I was speaking with Bamba quite a
01:19:53 bit can I just ask you to confine your answers to what you can tell tell me um from what you can tell me can you remember any particular person using the word destroyed in
01:20:07 person using the word destroyed in relation to the book shop it's a word that gets used all the time in relation to the book several yeah destroy the Bookshop
01:20:19 several yeah destroy the Bookshop destroy the the the swp uh the uh BMP um and as I said at the time this was the time when I was connected to bambur more and um he would have used exactly the
01:20:31 and um he would have used exactly the same language in what circumstances had you come to be connected to bambur Mo because the demo was coming up I was asked to do some stewarding on the demo
01:20:45 asked to do some stewarding on the demo I think there's a a video which shows us linked arms at the beginning the front of the
01:20:46 of the demonstration um for my recollection um and uh as you know
01:20:59 recollection um and uh as you know he wanted to gather comrades together who were capable of he thought um looking after themselves but that there are reports to that effect later on to which will come but that's
01:21:11 later on to which will come but that's not what this report is saying this no because this report probably has not got the it's not got the um the full essence of that do you see
01:21:23 um the full essence of that do you see what I mean there there the thoughts of it but not the essence in fact this report give the distinct impression that there are different groups advocating different levels or different methods to deal with a Bookshop
01:21:41 deal with a Bookshop absolutely it doesn't go so far as to particularize into the it doesn't it does exactly it doesn't go into it doesn't go into the SVP but I'm just ex ex explaining there are different groups who are wishing that and at this case
01:21:53 who are wishing that and at this case the group that was M together on that was why
01:21:59 you've largely and that's somebody else writing that you've largely preempt to my next question is in that that middle cohort of groups we were discussing earlier where on the
01:22:19 were discussing earlier where on the Spectrum are the S swp if the Y are are the most hard line where are the swp well again it's a group within the Y there was a group within the yre that was carrying out wish to carry actions I'm not going to say all the yre
01:22:32 actions I'm not going to say all the yre were doing that now I don't know whether Bamber got his idea from that group I don't
01:22:39 don't know can we go to the report at tab 159 please
01:22:59 339 this is a another report on uh the Brick Lane event um this is exp poost factor it's dated the 22nd of September about the event which had happened on the 19th so if we look
01:23:12 had happened on the 19th so if we look at the first paragraph just to set the scene the ANL call for this demonstration at short notice to counter
01:23:27 demonstration at short notice to counter the British national party paper sale in Brick Lane in an attempt to reverse the recent defeat they had suffered at the hands of the BMP on the night of the election count on the aisle of dogs eight swp districts under the ANL Banner were directed to attend the turnout from the swp ANL in reality was quite poor
01:23:41 the swp ANL in reality was quite poor but given the circumstances perhaps they were quite thankful that some 250 of
01:23:51 were quite thankful that some 250 of their number did put in an appearance on the day in addition there were about 50 members of Youth Against Racism and a similar number of supporters from militant workers power and panther UK together with a number of local youths and Anarchist types it is perhaps
01:24:04 and Anarchist types it is perhaps interesting to note that very few Asian youth
01:24:09 youth attended uh moving to the second uh paragraph I'm going to pick it up halfway down uh in the event only a small number of BMP supporters appeared and it is arguable that had police
01:24:29 and it is arguable that had police prevented them from Gathering directly opposite the left-wing demonstrators than most if not all the violent incidents could have been avoided over the
01:24:38 page first of all before we go over the page can I ask can you recall attending this
01:24:46 demonstration can I recall it
01:25:02 I'm not certain which demonstration it was if it's the demonstration whereby one of
01:25:03 one of the swp guys gets very badly beaten up then I was at it uh I I would know that for sure if it's not I was most likely
01:25:17 for sure if it's not I was most likely to be at it okay if we look at the top paragraph on the second
01:25:25 page as it was the demonstrators most of whom had arrived without missiles when they saw just how close they were to the opposition went off to purchase eggs and potatoes from the market to use as
01:25:38 potatoes from the market to use as ammunition the incidences of stone throwing were few but nevertheless several injuries were sustained mostly by supporters of the
01:25:55 BNP on this occasion did you throw eggs at the police no I heard that the other day when um I can't
01:26:10 heard that the other day when um I can't remember which person it was who said it um I never involved myself in anything like that for a pure and simple reason as I've said probably infinite Iden that the police were as
01:26:21 police were as racist as any other section of British society and within their ranks were individuals who would be looking for potentially in you know black people doing Mis
01:26:39 doing Mis misdeeds right so I never wanted to give those type of people of which were not but in any way shape on means the majority of police um they were just in line with every other section of British Society the opportunity to lift me for
01:26:52 Society the opportunity to lift me for something that wasn't that made no sense so no I never involved myself in anything like that sorry as I'm understanding your answer you're saying you didn't throw eggs at the police because you were afraid of
01:27:05 the police because you were afraid of racist policing I didn't throw exit the police because I knew I'd be putting myself on
01:27:06 myself on offer or anybody else to be fair because just there's just no advantage in it for me why would I do that it was Jenny that gave evidence is that who it was okay uh that you did
01:27:22 that who it was okay uh that you did nonsense throw eggs and indeed hit a police officer with a nonsense
01:27:29 wouldn't it have been in keeping with your cover no that's not a good
01:27:42 look are you going to suggest any reason why Jenny would be mistaken I don't know she seemed to say it and she seemed to say it as though it was before she even knew me I didn't quite understand that when I when I was
01:27:54 understand that when I when I was listening to it seemed as though she was saying it before she knew me I don't know but what whatever that's her recollection that's her recollection but it never happened I never put myself an offer like
01:28:11 that could we go to page three
01:28:17 please and
01:28:27 the just above the block capital letters special Branch references of leading activists identified there's a sentence which says nor must the ANL be considered a peaceful organization given a situation where it enjoys vast
01:28:43 a situation where it enjoys vast superiority in numbers over opposition and
01:28:44 and police alike it seems to be in the context of a meeting of a demonstration where they found themselves if the
01:28:58 where they found themselves if the superior numbers is what you're saying to throw eggs at and potatoes at fascists and police is that the basis I would imagine that they were aiming them at the fascist that's my imagination um not necessarily at the police but who knows some may have been aiming at the
01:29:15 police was that a unique experience of the ANL or had you had other similar experiences um the experiences were we outnumbered the fascist you yes
01:29:27 yes um
01:29:34 um but it's like when we were just talking recently about yre and I said there's sections of the yre the anti-nazi league the swp were mainly yeah I think I can say this were mainly
01:29:49 mainly female and as a and and what you found in those other groups that were attacking as they call them the Nazis they were mainly male in fact some of them now on exclusively red action Dam Etc
01:30:05 Etc so what you had was if there were sufficient
01:30:13 sufficient numbers potentially things happened like that but it wasn't something that the individuals seemingly saw themselves capable or willing to do because as we've heard earlier on the whole they didn't want violence yeah on the whole yeah absolutely it's it's let others per
01:30:24 absolutely it's it's let others per perform the violence yeah as I said to you yesterday let the nurses get nicked let others do the action can we go please to
01:30:31 please to 333
01:30:39 333 437 tab 162 please this is 28th of September
01:30:45 1993 this is specifically about preparations for the 16th of October
01:30:59 preparations for the 16th of October 1993 and we can see how the assess Ms are developing at this stage uh the predicted numbers are now 10 to 20,000 presumably that's because it's
01:31:11 20,000 presumably that's because it's been made a national call out MH serious widespread disorder and violence directed at BMP supporters and property Andor police is to be expected mood hostile confrontational
01:31:27 hostile confrontational so a much Graver assessment than the last
01:31:28 last document that we looked at what had changed the numbers but it's not just the numbers is it it's the the mood and the likelihood
01:31:41 it it's the the mood and the likelihood because of the numbers you know they've got the
01:31:45 got the numbers and the numbers mean that you're bringing into it your dams your afas your IR section that carries things out um and then you know you get a
01:32:02 Bravado if we look at the text on the first page I'm interested in thank you that's fine um this demonstration is a first example of real solidarity amongst anti-racist anti-fascist groups in
01:32:13 anti-racist anti-fascist groups in recent times the object of the exercise is primarily to force the closure of the
01:32:24 is primarily to force the closure of the BMP headquarters and Bookshop in Welling and secondly to speed the demise of the BMP Al together the main participating groups of the ANL youth Against Racism in Europe an emerging successful group sponsored by militant Panther UK the
01:32:36 sponsored by militant Panther UK the direct action movement Dam anti-fascist action and various Anarchist elements so AFA seem to be in the picture now and
01:32:50 AFA seem to be in the picture now and also I I miss that very important the anarchists of these the ANL will numerically be the largest the ANL as a wholly manipulated subsidiary of the Socialist Workers Party has committed
01:33:04 Socialist Workers Party has committed enormous resources to this event in the hope of repeating the success of the
01:33:16 hope of repeating the success of the original ANL which defeated the national front M so you're portraying this as of immense importance to the ANL is
01:33:19 ANL is this rekindling the spirit of the battle of lewisham and things like that this is going back in time but the fear and I have to mention that the fear is that this has its
01:33:31 this has its own achillus heel that sits there and that is that some people will take this
01:33:42 that is that some people will take this seriously and actually form a red action again that's the danger and they don't want that they don't want it demonstrators will assemble at winds common Elum intending to march on the BMP Bookshop whilst it has not been explicitly stated by organ izes the
01:33:58 explicitly stated by organ izes the intention of the protesters is to attack the
01:33:59 the Bookshop
01:34:01 Bookshop physically where did that come from just the facts that's what is the case that's what the talk is that's what they say they're going to do whose talk uh within the ANL um and also
01:34:17 talk uh within the ANL um and also within practically every one of these wider
01:34:22 organizations in fact not practically within all of the wi or I'm saying practically because I can't speak for the anarchist because they're just turning up at the event but the others they all want to do that as well as the
01:34:40 they all want to do that as well as the ANL and how are you getting to meet and talk to them all I speak with a lot of those people and in addition to that obviously we have people in some of those
01:34:42 those organizations the S confining your answers to the swp
01:34:56 Bookshop physically mhm was Mr bamry saying anything about physically attacking the Bookshop at this stage or not yeah they want to stop the book shop want to close it down well there's a big difference
01:35:09 it down well there's a big difference between stopping it and closing it down and attacking that's the way to do it because otherwise they're just sitting in there they're sitting in there and what you going to do it's going to keep running are
01:35:21 running are people can we be clear are people saying they want to close a book shop down and you are writing down attack it physically or are people saying going to attack it people are saying they want to attack it
01:35:28 attack it physically but you see if you want to close the book shop down you probably do what they are AED and you have a March in Parliament and you press parliamentarians to close it down if you
01:35:43 parliamentarians to close it down if you want to do it the way that we were doing it you come at the
01:35:52 Bookshop and that was expressly the case might there have been an element of hot air in what people were saying no and was this the rank and file or was this the
01:36:01 this the leadership well Bamboo's
01:36:08 leadership Waton articulated it in that sense no she was hot her on that I don't know but he definitely wasn't for sure I I know bamb that's how I know how did how are you saying Julie Waterson
01:36:20 how are you saying Julie Waterson because again she said that it's going to we're going to close down not close down we we're going to what did you say
01:36:33 down we we're going to what did you say it I'm paraphrasing because I can't give you exact but but she basically say we're going to destroy it I'm paraphrasing there because I can't say her exact words because I can't remember her exact words you asking me something that I could never say I can tell you that this is what bamboo said and I can tell you that her meaning was the
01:36:53 same can we go over the page to the top of the next page ANL swp organizers have discuss the possibility of police Banning the demonstration the resources committed to the event are so great that
01:37:04 committed to the event are so great that the event could not be cancelled even if the organizers were inclined to do so which they are not the ANL swp is printed or intends to print some 100,000 leaflets in the name of both the ANL and the unity group and 50,000 placards for
01:37:18 the unity group and 50,000 placards for the event organizers publicly state that up to 50,000 people will attend the demonstration and privately they are planning for 20,000
01:37:34 if you are planning privately for 20,000 people you don't have you don't prepare 50,000 placards do you well you plan for that because you think that's what might turn up but you do your 50 just in case more turn up
01:37:49 do your 50 just in case more turn up which in the end they did so they were right to make that the last thing you want is to not have enough blackards well if you have 50,000 blackards and 50,000 people you've got too many blackards you haven't you hav't because not everybody will take a plard I think that's not everybody will
01:38:03 plard I think that's not everybody will take a blackard so so what you're trying to do you're trying to make sure what whatever you've got you've got the capacity I see can we go um to the paragraph below the lines at the
01:38:21 end it I'm looking for the passage that begins it should be stressed that which is just a little bit higher than thank you it should be stressed that even elements within the S swp ANL which have previously shunned violent
01:38:32 have previously shunned violent confrontation are prepared for a fight this time as an added complication there is likely to be a large number of nons
01:38:44 is likely to be a large number of nons swp well-meaning ANL members who will be panicked as and when violence
01:38:55 erupts how had you come to The View that even the moderate elements of the swp ANL were up for a fight because of
01:39:08 swp ANL were up for a fight because of what they were saying and when you mean up for a fight do you mean they had a resolve to turn out in very large numbers to show and they resolve to get to the bus to to to the Bookshop and I was pretty much spot on actually with what I said about the um
01:39:22 actually with what I said about the um large numbers of individuals who turned out who were
01:39:29 panicked and from what we've seen that would include school children yeah
01:39:41 absolutely you've heard Dr German's evidence there would have been no sense whatsoever in organizing and planning violence because it would have ruined the reputation of the swp and it would
01:39:57 the reputation of the swp and it would have put off protesters who they needed to make up the numbers to make their point by mass and she also said that the ANL was not a total part of the S swp
01:40:12 ANL was not a total part of the S swp and she also said that um it was steered differently etc etc etc which we all know is not true so the reality of this is yes you don't want it to look like it's you absolutely and there's enough different sections of this demon
01:40:23 different sections of this demon demonstration that you can turn around and say this wasn't us it was the Y it was Dam it was AFA it was you know you can go on and on and on so that's how the game's
01:40:39 so that's how the game's played can we go to the source comments
01:40:48 please it is a considered opinion of many of the militant strategist that the only way in which confrontation and violence can be averted is by a very large and very visible police presence fully equipped for public disorder at
01:41:04 fully equipped for public disorder at the assembly point this they feel would dissuade those who would provoke violence or inflame other demonstrators any approach by
01:41:16 demonstrators any approach by demonstrators to the BMP Bookshop or the vicinity thereof will result in
01:41:28 violence can we first of all um look at location at the assembly point was it your
01:41:29 your opinion and if you could answer
01:41:41 opinion and if you could answer this precisely as I'm asking was it your opinion that the police should be at winds
01:41:46 common I'm sorry I'm looking I'm still looking for it to be put up sure take take your time I was just looking for it to be put up though that's what I thought you were doing um was it m where is that wind The Source comment it's no no where is winds
01:41:58 no where is winds common that was the that the stadium that was the assembly point for the March yeah I mean uh my opinion was and I think I wrote the report to say that I don't know if it's here whatever was
01:42:10 don't know if it's here whatever was that the police should be in riot gear from the beginning yeah well this is this is that passage because my point was that um in order to prevent what you found what I found on demonstrations was and I was on a number
01:42:26 demonstrations was and I was on a number of them in fact many many of them if you see policemen running away which invariably happens when the wearing a a helmet a top hat and a um and just general uniform it strives on the crowd
01:42:42 general uniform it strives on the crowd to carry out further action if you were standing there unmoved and I think that's has proved itself in Northern Island example example if you're standing there unmoved it's then a different kettle of fish so
01:42:59 it's then a different kettle of fish so to prevent problems I had suggested that there should already be that obviously the commissioner had his own perspective on it and he wanted to show that um the
01:43:12 on it and he wanted to show that um the police were um act acting softly softly and that they were willing to take injuries in order to prove that and so what you are advising is have a lot of police officers there correct in full riot gear
01:43:24 riot gear correct at the assembly Point uh you're marching with the cow and you've got an area where you don't want the crowd to go past there should
01:43:39 want the crowd to go past there should always be a way where the crowd can move around so no areas and I think one of the mistakes might have been on this demonstration that all areas seem to be blocked off in the end but but the reality is is that you should be able to march the crowd around and so that done
01:43:51 march the crowd around and so that done you know with the least possible problem could we take that down please and could we go to
01:43:58 we go to 33058 at tab
01:44:24 164 this is now we're into October this is the 5th uh of October um and we
01:44:26 um and we see bottom of P paragraph three
01:44:39 please you've written all the ANL has is riding on a powerful showing on the 16th of
01:44:46 October we've heard I think you've adverted to this before this is the concern is a loss of face and loss of ability to compete for members correct and in addition to
01:44:58 and in addition to that it's now that the S swp it's not just a loss of Fai it's now that the S swp ANL uh actually put
01:45:09 swp ANL uh actually put up don't they actually do something but a very large peaceful demonstration showing Mass
01:45:21 showing Mass resolve and con and opposition to the BMP would have could have done the same absolutely correct can we look at paragraph four
01:45:43 please another swp Central Committee Member Chris bambury has been drafted in to lead the ANL at demonstrations leading up to the big one it seems that s swp policy towards Street activity is being blurred the swp officially will not incite
01:45:56 the swp officially will not incite Street violence whereas committed ANL activists like privacy and privacy both of whom are reformed fascists believe that the BMP can only be beaten by
01:46:07 that the BMP can only be beaten by physical combat it would appear that bambury at least in private shares these sentiments which directly contradict s
01:46:23 sentiments which directly contradict s swp policy seems likely that Julie Waton has been sent to the ANL to temper some of bamber's very noticeable and public deviations from the party line exhibited at recent
01:46:33 at recent demonstrations so first of all concentrating on Mr Banbury the reporting here is that anything he is doing is being done in private
01:46:43 private great and how does that fit with it there being widespread calls to destroy the
01:46:54 the Bookshop because he's going to as I said he's coming together with enough people or trying to bring enough people together to to make that happen as are the other
01:47:02 the other organizations but if you I can't just stick to one organization I'm I'm basically saying what I know of the other organizations as well understood but how can bambur uh promote a violent
01:47:13 but how can bambur uh promote a violent demonstration if he's only communicating in
01:47:14 in private yeah but he's communicating in private with several people that's the whole point of it he's talking to people whom he thinks are a able to work that
01:47:26 whom he thinks are a able to work that through who have his perspective on what needs to happen so that private doesn't mean just one person that private could be 50 people but there are thousands attending this oh yes of course but we're not talk the vast majority of people on the demonstration are not
01:47:37 people on the demonstration are not going to do anything we know that that's that's that's demonstration normality it doesn't take a lot of people to cause problems likely that Julie Waton has
01:47:55 problems likely that Julie Waton has been sent to the ANL to temper I think so yeah and so is this the Central Committee wanting to keep the temperature down yeah but bambo is Central Committee as well isn't it there's a problem within the there's a problem within the
01:48:08 problem within the organization this is this is the problem they didn't want to happen this is why they formed the anti-nazi league late they didn't want it to happen this is exactly what happened with red
01:48:18 action and how does this assessment of Julie
01:48:28 Julie Waton fit with what you've told us a ago that Julie Waton was also talking about destroying the Bookshop yeah now with Julie that may well have been hyperbole May well have been but she's now being but we've but she but she you
01:48:39 now being but we've but she but she you know she's big she's a Central Committee Member and she would stick to what the um the Central Committee is saying now that they know this is coming out I don't know how they know it but it's
01:48:51 don't know how they know it but it's it's coming out now you've you know you she's I can't speak for Julie but I guess she's given to make a decision which side does she sit on I can't speak for and I wouldn't want to I can only report what I saw at the
01:49:03 to I can only report what I saw at the time and if we could go now to the next paragraph The Source comment underneath bamry is fascinated by trotsky's leadership of the Red Army and is taking every opportunity to emulate his Idol by
01:49:17 every opportunity to emulate his Idol by orchestrating Street demonstrations this is the second time that we've we've had an an illusion to to Trotsky yeah it is a Tris organization well I understand that um but so this is the hero this is
01:49:33 that um but so this is the hero this is the guy he's thinking about you heard Dr German saying uh that trosky spent a long time in Exile and he may have led the red and so did Lenin and of course what she also said is hardly anybody died in the revolution well as I know
01:49:51 died in the revolution well as I know and maybe you know that the abve brought Lenin over to stop the the the Russians from being in the first world war were millions of Russians had died in the first world war and the idea was to have Lenin cause the revolution so thereby they didn't have the second front and they could put all their efforts against
01:50:03 they could put all their efforts against the West that's the way the war Works he didn't tell you that but that's what actually happened so this was a German move and they brought the guy over on a special train to carry out that action and they were always um the abver that
01:50:15 and they were always um the abver that is German intelligence service they were always performing the action of activity within Russia to undermine the Russian State and the Zar so they could get them
01:50:29 State and the Zar so they could get them out of the war two fronts was destroying Germany so that's the difference so trosky yes was in Exile because he had to be because under the First Act that he'd be taken care of but he did fight
01:50:42 he'd be taken care of but he did fight in the in the white Wars thereafter back to the streets of I mean you you just brought forward I'm just saying what I'm just saying what you asked me I'm just giving you the breakdown of
01:50:56 it what did bambury say to you about Trotsky in particular that made you
01:51:06 think he wanted to orchestrate Street demonstrations his demeanor he told me about him he was fascinated by the guy um um and and you know as as as was I
01:51:21 um um and and you know as as as was I you know he's an interesting individual um and um so we talked about him um I can't remember verses of what we were saying but we we spoke about him and you know obviously I agreed with the fact that you know
01:51:33 agreed with the fact that you know Trotsky would have dealt with the BMP in a different manner if we go to paragraph five it is an Open Secret among Central ANL activists that the object of the
01:51:46 activists that the object of the exercise on the 16th of October is to attack an attempt to destroy the BMP Bookshop in Welling many are urging ra Patel to State this objective publicly
01:52:00 Patel to State this objective publicly who has so far wisely declined what is clear is that the hardliners at the heart of the ANL have won a commitment by leaders to allow and to encourage a violent
01:52:10 violent confrontation with police on the day this is because the ANL having committed itself to the cooperation with youth
01:52:21 itself to the cooperation with youth Against Racism in Europe will be unable to survive as a viable anti-fascist organization which will attract members and their for money unless it is seen to be at least as militant as the other participating groups at the demonstration on the
01:52:37 demonstration on the 16th of October and I think I can stop there
01:52:44 there um Open Secret now uh attack an attempt to destroy the
01:52:55 Bookshop if that had been the objective it would have been a criminal defense wouldn't it for Raul Patel to have stated that objective publicly you say that the hard liners at the heart of the ANL had won the
01:53:06 the heart of the ANL had won the commitment by leaders to allow and to encourage a violent confrontation but we've just looked at a paragraph which says that Julie W I should have actually said by Bambi and others obviously
01:53:20 Bambi and others obviously see there's a Central Committee and then you drop
01:53:21 you drop down ANL uh uh and uh swp now you're talking about the ANL and the ANL had its own body of individuals who were doing things within that and a lot of
01:53:32 doing things within that and a lot of those in that main body were not NE they were s swp some of them but some of them weren't s swp but many of them were s swp but the problem for them was that
01:53:45 swp but the problem for them was that they were s swp members that were often more Street orientated well we looked at the decision making at the top of the ANL
01:54:00 decision making at the top of the ANL um yesterday in the involvement of Peter Hayne Member of Parliament right that's right the way to the top you're not suggest you're not suggesting he was advocating I'm not talking about Peter no no no no I'm I'm talking about the people on the street and there were two
01:54:13 people on the street and there were two of them which you saw were thrown out I can't remember the names cuz cuz you know who were taken away from it so so this is the problem and it's the problem that happened with and I say it again it's a problem that happened with red
01:54:27 it's a problem that happened with red action and it was always going to happen it was always going to happen because you're saying take on the Nazi can we go to the bottom of the page please to paragraph
01:54:48 six thank you Central ANL activists are already planning tactics for life after the big demonstration they anticipate that the BMP will be seriously damaged by events in Welling on the 16th of October and the ANL might well be placed to kick the BMP whilst it is down a
01:55:07 to kick the BMP whilst it is down a network of about 70 hitters which can be called upon to defend provocative ANL Street activity against right-wing opposition has been proposed has been
01:55:23 opposition has been proposed has been reasonably well received other plans are being discussed MH uh a network of 70 hitters mhm where did you first hear that I'm sure I heard that from Chris and
01:55:39 others uh to defend oh yeah it's always defend it's always defend you never you're never attacking are you you defend you're defending the working class aren
01:55:48 you could I just be clear are you giving me a are you is there a degree of sarcasm in in said it's always said defend the working class that's what it is what I need to be clear about Mr
01:56:00 is what I need to be clear about Mr Morris is was your understanding that this was a plan to get together 6 70 physically able and willing people to defend
01:56:15 defend against far-right aggression no this was to take them on as red action does as AFA does as the group I can't remember what they call the group in that y as
01:56:26 what they call the group in that y as they were doing you know basically is it a way team is that what you mean yeah a way team yeah yeah yeah but basically all these groups had the people who were willing to take them on and that's why it was problematic for the
01:56:42 ANL P have been doing reasonably well received by whom are you saying right by those who wish to be part of that by others obviously it wasn't uh because it was another red action in the making because it was a red action in the making and also some of the people you know if you're going up against Nazis
01:56:55 know if you're going up against Nazis you're going up against some hardcore individuals who were not frightened of fighting and this this is all orientated for life after the big demonstration
01:57:09 for life after the big demonstration whilst they're on the Run yeah albe it that it was brought forward later on so would that be a good time for to
01:57:22 on so would that be a good time for to give the stenographer a rest I think so yes we'll uh rest for five minut 15 minutes
01:57:51 sorry
02:13:50 e e
02:14:51 thank you sir uh Mr Morris I'd like to take you now to a report which is dated the 8th of October 1993 it's Fourth threes and then a six uh tab
02:15:09 165 uh I'm interested in the substantive two substantive paragraphs of text in the
02:15:10 the middle thank you at a recent closed meeting of the Socialist Workers Party swp Branch leadership of the six Hackney District
02:15:23 leadership of the six Hackney District Branch's Central Committee Member Chris bambury in the presence of fellow Central Committee Member Lindsay German addressed the comrades present on the issue of building for the 16th of
02:15:34 issue of building for the 16th of October demonstration to close down the British national party BMP Bookshop in Welling he spoke in no uncertain terms of his intention to tear the building down and that no one was going to stop him he believed that there were many
02:15:50 him he believed that there were many others who thought as he did and that the party must obtain their support
02:16:02 the party must obtain their support bamry issued instructions for systematic contact to be made with schools further education colleges the local Council hospitals workers in unionized workplaces in addition links were to be forged with Turkish organizations and Hackney's large black community to attend the March as an example he cited
02:16:15 attend the March as an example he cited the efforts of s swp members in Glasgow who although 500 miles away way from the bmp's aisle of dogs Victory had already filled five coaches for the
02:16:34 filled five coaches for the event uh can I ask you first of all were you at the closed meeting
02:16:43 yes when was the closed meeting I don't know exactly when it was but I was on the branch committee for my Branch so therefore I would have been
02:16:55 therefore I would have been there if you were there why doesn't the report say when the meeting happened does he not say it does we scroll down does he not say he just says at a recent closed meeting all right I don't know
02:17:13 why could you describe to us as best you can
02:17:21 can recall what Chris banbery said I can't do other than what's there I can't recall what what he said can you recall what lindsy German's reaction was I can't do I can't remember
02:17:45 it you'll have heard Dr German's evidence the suggestion was made that Mr bamry it might have been and I'm using my words might have been hyperbole
02:17:48 hyperbole um all I know is I knew Chris B I knew what his feelings were and what he was saying was reality as he perceived
02:17:59 saying was reality as he perceived it but I I say I can't remember the actual event because I can't you know my mind doesn't put me to it um say it
02:18:14 mind doesn't put me to it um say it again I dumped most of this stuff look I was a committed activist that's what I was um they knew it um and that was for real by the way that wasn't a pretense that's how I was from shortly thereafter um because that's what this
02:18:26 thereafter um because that's what this job does to you it makes you you know be one of the individuals makes you believe you are and so Chris obviously saw that
02:18:37 you are and so Chris obviously saw that he and I got on as I did with many other people in the branch and branches particularly onl time and therefore you know I was able to
02:18:51 know I was able to write with some um um to truthfulness and with some total connection as to what was happening and as I explained to you before it also made me feel in a way strangely
02:19:02 strangely sad um because I didn't want and wouldn't have wanted Chris to know whom I really was but um but then I didn't know who I really was anyway so so the reality is this was me taking it from
02:19:17 reality is this was me taking it from where it came from and I wrote it as was the case using the demon demonstration as a vehicle to tear the building down was inevitably going to involve violence wasn't it correct with the
02:19:28 wasn't it correct with the police if the police got in the way absolutely and they would because that's their Duty which they knew which they knew yeah absolutely and with the BMP absolutely if they showed themselves
02:19:41 absolutely if they showed themselves what we kind of understood was that they would stay in the Bookshop that's as we understood it okay protect as we said it we see this is how it was then so swp
02:19:53 we see this is how it was then so swp said it protected by the police yeah so what you are suggesting is Chris bambury is putting together a plan which inevitably
02:20:04 together a plan which inevitably involves large crowds involved in violence with the police correct and he's inviting school children to this event increas his
02:20:15 children to this event increas his defense because again I don't want to be negative towards Chris in his defense I just to give you I think we'd be looking at 13 upwards so we're not talking two year olds but if their parents brought them to the demonstration that's
02:20:27 them to the demonstration that's different but as individuals he wanted us to um feed into the anger and so the idea was to look at people who would
02:20:41 idea was to look at people who would understand that 13 14 15 16 17 who would understand that anger you know preferably black people and bring them in on the
02:20:47 in on the demonstration picking up the words of the report systematic cont to be made with schools that's correct targeting children
02:20:58 children correct if we go over the page to the source
02:21:03 source comment it is now Beyond doubt that the hardliners in the ANL swp who want Street confrontation with the BMP have won the internal policy battle for the
02:21:14 won the internal policy battle for the course of action on the 16th of October the official position is now to drive through police lines and attempt to D destroy the BMP Bookshop this position
02:21:26 destroy the BMP Bookshop this position has been reiterated in a coded fashion in the week's party notes the weekly information circular for swp members which states on the 16th we know where
02:21:42 which states on the 16th we know where the NIS are going to be and we're going to confront them in their bunker correct official position this is a closed meeting
02:21:55 position this is a closed meeting mhm it's not a closed meeting of the Central Committee it's a meeting of um Branch officers isn't it from District branches area the Hackney District branches yeah this is a
02:22:08 District branches yeah this is a national call out demonstration corre the official position of the swp for a national callout demonstration would have would have to be decided by the Central Committee wouldn't it You' got two members of the Central Committee
02:22:19 got two members of the Central Committee actually saying that but in the capacity you got one person's articulating it and you got another one sat there but this is in a Hackney meeting
02:22:34 there but this is in a Hackney meeting yeah but the idea is that Chris wouldn't have been saying that if that hadn't been sanctioned especially not in front of
02:22:42 of Lindsay as I understand it you are not positively asserting that she expressly agreed with him but I'm saying she didn't stop him
02:23:01 and you talk about uh information being communicated in a coded fashion but how does that gel with your evidence that there were
02:23:14 gel with your evidence that there were going to be large numbers of people who wouldn't expect violence and who would be
02:23:18 be panicked that's my assessment not their that's my assessment um this is very clear to me what's been said and you can see it for yourself and you probably can take away from about what you wish to
02:23:30 take away from about what you wish to take away from it but I know what I took away from it and I know what most s swp people took away from it andl people and in fact the normal person takes away with it could we go to page three please which has got um a leaflet which was
02:23:48 which has got um a leaflet which was attached to this report excuse me course I'm interested in essentially the first
02:23:58 paragraph London will be key to the success of the unity march on the ba BNP HQ it is also the bnp's main Center of operations it is in London that there is the most immediate danger of the Nazis building upon their success in mil wall
02:24:17 building upon their success in mil wall the large is possible turnout a week on Saturday will be crucial in isolating them MH this is the official message that's going out at the time and it's entirely consistent isn't it with the long-standing policy of using
02:24:34 policy of using mass to achieve what they want mhm correct I mean it's not telegraphing we're going to physically attack but as we know within the mass at this time there had been several
02:24:47 this time there had been several demonstrations already that had turned into violence
02:25:03 might it be on reflection Mr Morris that this
02:25:05 this report exaggerates no what took place at that closed meeting as I say again there's no exaggeration that's what was said that was a
02:25:18 what was said that was a circumstance if you want to read it differently you can do but but the reality is that's what took place that what was said and as you see I even
02:25:33 what was said and as you see I even quote what he's actually said in the circular can we now go to 33024 tab 167
02:26:01 if we go to the bottom left hand corner please and zoom zoom in on that because the date is very difficult to
02:26:08 see to appears to say the 12th of October at 19 all right 1210 1993 and if we could zoom back out again please and look at the first paragraph of the substantive text
02:26:30 Mark meta of the hfc is expecting up to 100 anti-fascists from Holland and Germany to come to the anti-bmp demonstration on Saturday he says that these will be seasoned fighters who are used to physical
02:26:41 used to physical confrontations meta also believes that about 50 members of anti-fascist action will come to London from Liverpool for the
02:26:54 the occasion can you recall where you got this intelligence from I can't did you come across any of these Dutch and German
02:27:20 anti-fascists I'm not certain whether was on that March or another I have come across German anti-fascist but I'm not certain on which March it was on it's highly likely that it is on that March but
02:27:27 March but [Music]
02:27:33 [Music] um I don't want to say yes it was that March and I don't want to say how I came across it um because I
02:27:46 say how I came across it um because I can't remember are you able to help us with whether or not uh these seasoned Fighters actually turned up I don't know that's what I'm saying I don't
02:27:52 don't know but your report would have been taken into account by those who were
02:28:05 taken into account by those who were responsible for providing an assessment of the public order threat on the day and I would have said that actually quite easily to pick that up because as you know special Branch also ran ports so if you came into the United Kingdom virus
02:28:19 virus aort even 1993 even then in '93 you're going to show you passport and um if there was a feel and of course this would be passed to
02:28:37 of course this would be passed to esquad and if these guys were in any way shapa meanss Tied by their country as anti-fascists and Fighters we should have picked that up from our esad European liaison section which is what I would have done when I was at that in that section and therefore we may have even been able to tag the individuals
02:28:57 could we now go to some of the maps of the area uh sir this is tab
02:29:00 is tab B20 and on the screen
02:29:16 37118 and perhaps we could start with page five please
02:29:31 this is what might be described as a low resolution map of the general area uh do you see Welling pretty much in the
02:29:43 you see Welling pretty much in the center of the page yep and do you see a upper Wickham Lane running just to the left of the word Welling yep and then Wickham Lane running north towards
02:29:54 Wickham Lane running north towards plumstead yep winds common um at the plumstead end of Wickam Lane oh
02:29:56 Lane oh good yep
02:30:05 good yep uh Lodge Lane The Junction between upper Wickam Lane Wickam Lane Lodge Lane and Oak hampon
02:30:17 cresant i l was was could you highlight that for me I'm going I'm going north if I'm okay down see the Cur right got it
02:30:28 I'm okay down see the Cur right got it now yeah y you see that uh there are two railway lines uh there's the line that runs through wallich Arsenal plumsted abbywood
02:30:34 abbywood badier to the north MH and to the South there's the line that's running from Elum falconwood Welling Beckley Heath barnhurst do you see those
02:30:57 two this is all very close isn't it to uh the parts of London uh where uh y okay Roland Adam Adams and Steven Lawrence were murdered isn't it absolutely and very high racial tension at the time
02:31:08 absolutely can we now we may come back to the maps again in a moment having orientated ourselves generally may can we now go to
02:31:17 25694 tab 16
02:31:31 eight now this is a report which is about the day in question it's dated the 19th of October at the end so it's an expose facto
02:31:44 at the end so it's an expose facto report plainly it's about the unity anti-racist March MH number present 15 to
02:31:56 to 20,000 uh is that an estimate you still agree with well I don't think I agreed with it then I I would have said there was more but well maybe I'm wrong disorder occurred yes y absolutely mood hostile
02:32:10 hostile confrontational um I mean there'd been a riot hadn't there absolutely uh up until the eve of the demonstration leaders of the participating groups were confident of achieving their goal of reaching the
02:32:24 achieving their goal of reaching the British national party Bookshop and if practicable destroying it the prescription of a route by police coupled with the reported presence of some 7,000 police officers convinc
02:32:42 some 7,000 police officers convinc leaders on the morning of the March that it would be impossible to reach the Bookshop and from the moment they reached that conclusion their efforts became less than whole hearted mhm the route was prescribed by
02:32:59 mhm the route was prescribed by police before the 16th of October wasn't it I don't know do you have any independent recollection now or not I don't I don't
02:33:11 know what do you mean by less than
02:33:20 wholehearted I guess I'm meaning they wouldn't go hell for Le to try and get to the Bookshop as the March that
02:33:27 is if we go over the
02:33:44 page we see um the under details of events the Socialist Workers Party swp and its proxy the anti-nazi league claims to have chartered sorry the yeah 538 coaches to transport
02:33:55 yeah 538 coaches to transport demonstrators on the day a great many of these were sponsored and paid for by union branches there was no large scale meeting for S swp ANL stewards before the event but a joint meeting with the
02:34:10 the event but a joint meeting with the yre stewards group was held you were a steward on the day weren't you correct were you at the steward's
02:34:22 meeting I don't know I'm guessing I must have been at least at the the final one the second
02:34:29 one you implicit in your answer is that there were two I think so I'm I'm not sure but I think so both on the day or one before and one on the
02:34:40 day I'm sorry I can't I can't
02:34:50 say it suggests that there was a division of opinion between the swp and the
02:34:52 the Y and also between members of the swp itself do you recall Julie Waton urging a sitdown protest in front of police
02:35:06 a sitdown protest in front of police lines you know I heard this um the other day and that has gone totally from my
02:35:20 mind I don't Rec call the sit down at all goes on to say using the families of murdered colored colored Youth and a holocaust Survivor all right so that's not me stoes that's not me um that bit I would never use the word murdered
02:35:31 would never use the word murdered colored use so I don't know where that's come from this is not me she argued that a sit down would provoke police aggression and would lay the blame for subsequent disorder unequivocably on the
02:35:54 authorities was that the strategy well that would make sense but this this this
02:36:07 um this formulation of is a big problem for me color no murder color D no no UND I'm never going to write that understood the yre stewards argued for the tactic of linking arms and forcing their way through the police lines to reach the Bookshop
02:36:26 reach the Bookshop can you recall that being advocated that was probably advocated yeah and this is clear an
02:36:27 clear an amalgam report put together by the office Chris bambury an S swp Central Committee Member was making alternative arrangements to launch a preemptive
02:36:44 arrangements to launch a preemptive strike on the Bookshop before the March started
02:36:47 correct if we just go back
02:37:04 page top left we have two nominals 101 78 if we go back to page three now
02:37:10 please please don't utter the name [Music]
02:37:13 [Music] no oh
02:37:26 okay Chris bamry an swp Central Committee Member was making alternative arrangements to launch a preemptive
02:37:38 arrangements to launch a preemptive strike on the Bookshop before the March started when did Mr banur make alternative
02:37:48 Arrangements that was agreed kind of some time before um and then on the day it was what was going to happen what I can't tell you exactly when it was what was agreed before the day that we were
02:38:03 was agreed before the day that we were going to Fox them by going early to sort out the
02:38:09 Bookshop when you say going early what do you mean by that early on that
02:38:18 day and what do you mean by sort out the Bookshop to destroy
02:38:26 it was there any planning that went into any more detail than
02:38:33 that it was relatively vague did anybody conduct a reconnaissance that I don't know I
02:38:44 reconnaissance that I don't know I certainly didn't um so I couldn't say that um if there had been a reconnaissance you would have reported on it wouldn't you had I have done it yeah well had you known about it and I had known about it that's what I was going to say and I had I had done it and
02:38:58 going to say and I had I had done it and I had known about it so when I say I had done it if I'd been one of the those that did it but I didn't do it but I knew about the plan so that's why I put the plan in and
02:39:09 why I put the plan in and ahead you've got my report on what I put ahead of
02:39:10 ahead of it without using names unless you
02:39:21 it without using names unless you already know they can be uttered in this public hearing publicly could you and writing any others down if needs be could you tell us who was supposed to be involved in this plan to sort who was going to sort the
02:39:39 Bookshop you're asking for names
02:39:56 um um do we have paper yes and indeed a pen pens underneath all right thanks very much
02:40:01 um I think
02:40:24 what was he called
02:40:58 this is what I can just sort of remember off the top of my head and it's really only me names or last
02:41:17 name thank you
02:41:31 you've written down four names one is your own correct one is Mr bambury there are two other names on the piece of paper which I'm not going to no there may well have been other and I can't remember the names of them for reasons of
02:41:50 privacy were they also members of the s swp y was there anybody part of this group from any other organization not that I'm aware
02:42:04 of was there any discussion as to how the Bookshop was going to be
02:42:15 the Bookshop was going to be sorted in my mind I've got some aspect of Arsen but I can't we didn't take anything with us
02:42:26 I think the plan was to collect something well it wasn't really a proper plan I don't think to collect something there but in my mind I've got arson in my
02:42:37 mind we'll come back to record of that in in a
02:42:44 moment on the back on the day the stewards meeting happens by that stage AG did you know there was going to be a very large police presence
02:43:06 absolutely what happened next with you Mr Banbury and the two other people you've
02:43:06 you've named one of the individuals ah you mean going towards the book of ourselves not with the
02:43:18 the book of ourselves not with the demonstration is that what you're saying well I'm asking I mean I you've told us you think you were at the steward's meeting right this happened way before the steward's meeting well you've told us about a planning meeting yeah this this bit where we were going to do something happened way before the stewards meeting I had already said that
02:43:37 stewards meeting I had already said that we were going to do that via the railway system the railways didn't stop where they should have stopped so it the operation was cancelled as such we then went back to where we were meant to be my recollection is that I came into the
02:43:51 my recollection is that I came into the demonstration on one of the cult is with at least two of the other guys and I think Bambi might have been on another one of the coaches might have been um and and then it went on as per normal then can I just unpack some of
02:44:02 normal then can I just unpack some of that I'm understanding you to be saying you didn't take anything with you so you you are you're saying you didn't take any equipment with you with which to destroy the booksh correct it was meant
02:44:15 destroy the booksh correct it was meant to be gathered up there and then whever it was how are you going to destroy the book shot I believe in my back of my mind and I would have written it at the time I believe it was arson and I
02:44:30 time I believe it was arson and I believe that we and I'm saying we hadn't taken anything with us but that's my point I believe it's not the case I can't see us having done that so I believe that we were going to throw something in the somehow um the floor the Upper Floor at the
02:44:41 floor the Upper Floor at the front was as we saw on the on the picture was um protected I'm not so sure that the rear of the building was
02:44:56 that the rear of the building was protected or the upper floors weren't protected if you're going to try and burn a building down you need to take petrol or some other accelerator which we which we could have got on Route you know when we got off petrol station etc
02:45:11 etc the plan that was hatched days before as you've told us did you report it of course I'm sure you got the report haven't you well we haven't got any report which talks
02:45:25 haven't got any report which talks about the sort of operation you've just described to us Oh I thought you did have I was pretty sure you did have but um yep I reported it as I report everything as you can see and did you report it in writing or did in writing
02:45:37 report it in writing or did in writing absolutely absolutely and that's why the police claws the trains down can you can you
02:45:52 explain you may not know but if you going to give you the opport to offer an explanation if you wish why we haven't recovered don't have a clue it would have been something of interest of the security service and the police wouldn't it definitely the police and most probably the security service
02:46:06 yeah as for the
02:46:14 trains because of the r rooting the police would not have wanted large numbers of people arriving at Welling station would day I I don't know what the reasoning was all I know is is that I explained what we were attempting to do at some stage I passed that
02:46:31 do at some stage I passed that information to the office and on the day the trains didn't go where they were expected to go that's all I know wouldn't Welling station have been closed anyway of the March I don't don't don't have a clue that's up to the territory policing I don't know did you actually get on a
02:46:51 train I'm pretty sure we did what can you recall happening once you'd got on the train I don't know I know that it didn't happen that's what I can recall the whole thing didn't happen so we went back to plan B which
02:47:03 happen so we went back to plan B which was get on to the coaches and go and do what we were going to do via that route where were the coaches going from uh Hackney well to get a
02:47:16 Hackney well to get a train on either of the those routes you would be taking a a train into Southeast London from a station
02:47:28 into Southeast London from a station such as London Bridge May well carrying Cross or Cannon Street you know the train system better than me obviously May well have did if you've gone into that part of Southeast London on the
02:47:40 that part of Southeast London on the railway Network how do you then get back to Hackney to get on a coach by the train that's what I'm assuming or it could have been a bus we what I noise the trains didn't run and therefore we didn't carry out
02:47:57 run and therefore we didn't carry out the operation the way we wanted to do it but that was very early it was an early morning thing we were going to try and do and that's what I wrote and I don't understand why you don't have that report or or maybe it's one of several
02:48:08 report or or maybe it's one of several reports but if you've got on a train on the Welling line I'm not I'm not guess I'm not guessing so I don't know and you want to be in winds common which is near plumstead station you don't go back to
02:48:21 plumstead station you don't go back to Hackney and get a coach you change train lines and go to plumstead that might be the case I don't know I don't know South London it's that
02:48:32 simple can we go uh back then there comes a time when however it's happened we get back to the thing this is why I'm saying I think it would have been the second stewards meeting not the first one we may have missed the first
02:48:47 missed the first one but a steward's meeting is going to be early in the day isn't it relatively so is it your evidence that all of this has happened before you get you were very early in the morning when
02:48:59 you were very early in the morning when we were going to do that first thing it didn't happen we ended up at the stewards meeting we came in Via a coach one if not two of those guys I'm sure it's two of them but let's say one I know for sure came with me he and I
02:49:12 I know for sure came with me he and I got off the coach together we were good buddies and um um I then went to the steward's bit and he went to do whatever he was doing do
02:49:29 it if the Bookshop had been burned down mhm on the morning of the 16th of October
02:49:30 October [Music]
02:49:34 [Music] MH for some people it would have taken the wind out of the sales of the demonstration wouldn't it I'm sure it would have yeah and for others it would have been the source of very deep concern because they rejected
02:49:47 very deep concern because they rejected violent I'm sure it would have done for some for some not some just have been a victory but for both those cohorts of
02:49:58 victory but for both those cohorts of people it would have actually undermined the March wouldn't it I'm sure it would have done for some people I mean I'm not trying to Second and guess what other people are
02:50:15 thinking I don't know why you haven't got the reports that's where my problem lies on this whole issue can we go to the third paragraph uh picking up from the report s swp ANL stewards had been instructed not to
02:50:33 stewards had been instructed not to carry anything which might be construed as an offensive weapon MH so certainly so far as the official March is concerned the S swp are presumably protecting their people from arrest by ensuring they're not carrying any yeah and their reputation absolutely
02:50:44 and their reputation absolutely offensive yeah yeah the swp stewards were under the command of su well as previously stated the stewards had received no proper briefing but were
02:50:55 received no proper briefing but were left to follow ad hoc instructions as things developed large numbers of demonstrators who were non swp members of A&L seemed blissfully unaware that there was any likelihood of
02:51:11 there was any likelihood of violence now the violence presumably you're referring to here is a confrontation between demonstrators and the police correct many of the stewards ostensibly representing the swp were in fact from
02:51:25 representing the swp were in fact from Liverpool and appeared to be supporters of
02:51:31 militant as the March moved off after a considerable delay caused by traffic congestion stewards from the swp ANL and yre joined forces to lead the protesters by some pre-arrangement privacy of the
02:51:51 by some pre-arrangement privacy of the Kingsway anti-fascist group came to be leading the entire y stewards Group which was at the Forefront of the fighting this suggests that the stewards were all together was it not the case that stewards Steward the meeting steu
02:52:02 that stewards Steward the meeting steu Steward a demonstration along the line of the demonstration the yeah there was a big long line of us who were at the front um from what I can
02:52:16 front um from what I can recall B bamry was in the middle and I believe I was wrapped arms with bamry and and I'm not certain if on my side was Julie Waterson or on P's side in the middle so the S swp had the middle position and then there was a line of stewards of others including us and
02:52:28 stewards of others including us and others who who were from other parties Etc how close to the front are we here I think we're at the
02:52:42 front you set off from winds common you go up to the junction on the map I believe you when you tell me cuz I don't know the geography but yeah well I'm I'm I I don't have the job of giving evidence here so no no but when you tell
02:52:55 evidence here so no no but when you tell me I'm obviously taking your word for it yeah you set off there are police with
02:53:01 you I
02:53:17 think the line of stewards is quite wide so it may well be that each side of the L what I can recall are horses police horses
02:53:22 horses on the kind of there was a kind of a mount with was a kind of a a grassy Mount and there were police horses where officers were sitting looking down on one side on the other side there wasn't a mount and I think you had a line of
02:53:38 a mount and I think you had a line of officers on that side I think we then marched
02:53:39 marched towards it keep marching towards it and then we hit a line of uniformed officers if I can remember correctly and these guys were just in normal
02:53:50 guys were just in normal uniform was there anyone in riot gear visible on the horses well they had Riot
02:54:08 visible on the horses well they had Riot helmet on Etc and on the horses um those at the beginning were not in right gear as far as I as far as I recollect I've got to keep saying that as far as I recollect if we go back to the maps please at
02:54:14 please at 37118 page n please
02:54:46 and if we could um have just a little bit south of there where the letter B is please thank you um The Junction there could we have that expanded please you can see plumsted Cemetery just above the bee yep um an upper Wickam Lane
02:54:57 the bee yep um an upper Wickam Lane going to meet Lodge Hill Oak Hampton cresant and Wickam Lane does the uh does plumsted Cemetery ring any
02:55:15 bells not particularly the evidence we've had is that um the demonstration meets the police lines at that Junction probably
02:55:28 true what is your recollection of what happens when the front of the demonstration comes up to the police it was halted by the police um and
02:55:47 initially again I think I think initially it kind of stopped
02:55:52 stopped and then I think again not 100% that we then move
02:56:02 forward and these were normal police yeah normal gear on Etc um not that the in right gear not normal police but these were in normal clothing police
02:56:13 these were in normal clothing police clothing and then as I understand it we began to move forward and then a whole host of whatever came over the top placards bricks whatever came over the top of us that is of
02:56:29 top of us that is of us was there a sitdown protest see I don't remember the sitdown
02:56:38 protest are you saying that there might have been that you don't but you don't remember yeah I I don't recall it I just don't recall it can I know that was evidenced but I
02:56:49 it can I know that was evidenced but I given as evidence but I don't recall it I know you're having difficulty recalling the precise location but can you recall a junction and if so can you remember how many exits were blocked by
02:57:06 police truthful I can't but I heard somebody say that all the exits were
02:57:13 blocked so presumably apart from the way you've come yeah that's what I'm that's what I heard and that was I think it was Lind gerain said that recently but I
02:57:26 Lind gerain said that recently but I can't recall that I just can't recall it and if you have tens of thousands of people processing up a road and all the exits in front of them are
02:57:40 all the exits in front of them are blocked that is likely to cause a public a yeah absolutely I don't deny that you've said you've described missiles coming over the top over the top of you do you
02:57:49 do you know if any particular group was associated with throwing those I don't know who throwing them because I was at the front we were linking arms this is what I recall of the the thing front
02:58:00 what I recall of the the thing front linking arms B was a tall fell he says right let's keep going so we keep going missiles come over the top in the end the police start running
02:58:12 the police start running away we keep going forward this is my recollection we keep going forward then all of a sudden you get people in right gear coming
02:58:26 forward I think with long Shields that's in my mind with long Shields rather than short Shields with long Shields and they hold a line with long Shields where have they come
02:58:43 from I didn't see where they came from I'm guessing they were just in reserve somewhere but I didn't see where they came from and what happens next long Shields are there they're holding the line with the long Shields stuff keeps coming over as far as I'm recollecting um and
02:58:56 recollecting um and then we start to push into the long
02:59:04 Shields and are you still at the front yeah but I think I'm being now over run by people coming from other
02:59:15 over run by people coming from other sides and are you pushing against police Shields I'm being pushed against police
02:59:22 Shields I'm being pushed against police Shields Cuz 100 thousand people whatever behind me pushing me forward that's the problem there's a movement pushing you forward but other people are coming around the sides and going at the old bill at the police what happens next um
02:59:32 next um fighting and I think I'm trying to Rel let I think somebody's throwing flares and stuff and I think that short Shield people come out on Snatch
02:59:46 people come out on Snatch groups you know the round short Shields come out on Snatch groups and and grabbing the people who are throwing things um and it was Holly
03:00:01 mayam Julie Waton is injured at some point isn't she yeah did you see her get
03:00:13 injured I cannot remember if I wrote it I did if I didn't write it I didn't um I'm pretty sure that that the stuff I think my recollection is did she get in the back of the head well we'll go to for a m in a moment we'll go to what has been written down but at the moment what I'm
03:00:25 down but at the moment what I'm interested I I can't I don't want say I I can't remember saying it as as it was then the best things to go back to what I wrote at the
03:00:37 time how does it end what the whole thing the whole day well you're in the middle of this melee well you're at the front of this melee the front of it yeah I try and get out of the way because actually it's a dangerous place to be from both sides one from the police
03:00:50 from both sides one from the police giving you a good hiding if if you came at them which we didn't and the second one is if you're getting thrown from the back cuz bricks and that were coming over so you try and get out of the way
03:01:01 over so you try and get out of the way which is what I attempted to do and how did you get out of the way not running away but moving away getting out of the way and trying try and make it look dignified getting out of the way were you successful uh yes and how did you
03:01:17 you successful uh yes and how did you make your Escape I cannot recall which way I did did
03:01:23 it what I do know is I wasn't injured and I got out of the way if we go back now to the report that's
03:01:36 25694 well I wasn't injured I think I got a plard or two on me I don't
03:01:51 know thank you so if we pick up at the bottom paragraph second half of it the Y stewards especially those from the kfg that's a Kingsway anti-fascist group isn't it suffered considerable
03:02:03 isn't it suffered considerable casualties and a number of them deserted later claiming to have been chasing fascists privacy was insistent that if in if sufficient numbers were prepared to force their way through the police
03:02:16 to force their way through the police would inevitably lose control and the Bookshop would be
03:02:26 theirs as far as you can recall is it right that the Y stewards and especially those from the kfg were I don't want to
03:02:35 those from the kfg were I don't want to say yes if that I can only go off what I wrote at the time if that's me and if I wrote it at the time that is what I thought happened top of the next
03:02:42 page the actual fighting was started and sustained by a group of 60 to 100 crusties who the stewards were powerless to control and it was clear that many of the stewards fearing for their safety
03:03:00 the stewards fearing for their safety were eager to calm things down is the word Cruses a reference to Anarchist Anarchist
03:03:08 Anarchist correct and again do you have any reason now to I have no reason to doubt that because they're uncontrollable and presumably from what you've told us you've got nothing to add mhm s swp turnout is estimated the bottom of the next paragraph to have
03:03:19 bottom of the next paragraph to have been 3 to 4,000 so by no means well a relatively small proportion of the over turn
03:03:33 turn out and then you say police tactics have mounted and batten charges instilled fear in all but the most enraged demonstrators the Topography of the scene which resulted in the March being pinched so as to allow only a few hundred protesters into the fighting
03:03:45 hundred protesters into the fighting area the police holding The High Ground meant that most of those who would have
03:03:59 meant that most of those who would have joined the fry W able to do so good it's right isn't it that um this did take place in a relativ confined space absolutely absolutely that's the BD I said I I recollected some horses on The High Ground blah blah blah over the
03:04:12 page thank you many of the injuries sustained by the demonstrators were in fact caused by missiles thrown from the rear
03:04:18 rear Julie waterson's much publicized head wound which she attributes to a b police baton was almost certainly caused by a
03:04:29 baton was almost certainly caused by a friendly brick which failed to reach its proper Target when thrown from behind
03:04:38 her we've had evidence that the Metropolitan Police Service settled a claim brought by Julie Waton as a result of this injury
03:04:50 of this injury you have no recollection today no as to how she got it no might this uh record in your report be wrong about how Julie Waton came about
03:05:11 hery excuse me obviously I thought it was correct what I wrote at the time but I can't
03:05:15 I can't um I can't say it was because I can't recall
03:05:20 if you if if what you're trying to say that I was in some way defending the police I think you see by know that's not my style no I'm simply asking you whether it so might be might be wrong what I saw at the time I felt was the
03:05:35 what I saw at the time I felt was the case but if that's not then so be it and presumably you well we know you sometimes report things secondhand
03:05:49 correct arson there is no mention in any of the Contemporary reporting of arson the
03:06:00 Contemporary reporting of arson the first time that any reference to arson comes up is in your interview with operation Hearn officers in October 2013 okay why is that don't have a
03:06:09 a clue might you again be
03:06:14 again be mistaken I don't know why I'd mentioned it in 2013 if I didn't think it happened but obviously there's a potential but I
03:06:28 but obviously there's a potential but I don't I don't think that's the case and I think it was on this particular job that that it that it happened um and there's basically no advantage to me saying that that was the case because by 2013 I was out of the job
03:06:44 so moving on to events after the Welling Riot it's right isn't it that you ID identified offenders after the riot from photographs an offender just
03:07:02 one there is some reporting in the pack after dates from after Welling about the youth Against Racism in Europe there's a report on a yre weekend conference
03:07:13 report on a yre weekend conference there's a report about a gentleman called Tony guard and there's a report about the and that also talks about
03:07:24 about the and that also talks about involvement in trouble at Welling I can call them up if needs be if they would assist you but my question at this stage
03:07:37 is is reporting on the Y likely to be yours generally it's not likely to mine can we move now then please to 29708 tab 18
03:08:03 one thank
03:08:11 you now this is a report
03:08:17 report um about a blood and honor gig and assciated
03:08:18 assciated protest in 1994 uh looking at the first paragraph
03:08:32 1994 uh looking at the first paragraph it says this report outlines the Salient points arising from the public order activities on Saturday the 15th of September
03:08:36 September 1994 when a number of left-wing groups notably the anti-nazi league youth Against Racism in Europe yre and anti-as fascist action all tried to stop a concert by the skin head music movement
03:08:54 concert by the skin head music movement blood and honor the concert was to have taken place in East London and it was intended as a tribute to Ian Stewart Donaldson lead singer of the band screwdriver who was killed in a car crash late in
03:09:05 crash late in 1993 several hundred skids had traveled from all over Europe for the event uh and if we go over the page to page three please
03:09:22 paragraph 4 paragraph 4 recounts uh a group of about
03:09:35 group of about 150 ANL and swp supporters encountering five Dutch skin heads and describes a little bit of violence but not a lot says they suffered no more than a few meager blows and were largely unscathed
03:09:51 then uh below that uh there is a section about the youth Against Racism in Europe
03:10:04 about the youth Against Racism in Europe which describes them first of all in the middle um as an alliance of antifascist notable because it contains mostly
03:10:15 notable because it contains mostly StreetWise activists who are courageous in battle almost to the point of Madness over the page page four there is an account of the Y contingent in the words of the
03:10:29 contingent in the words of the author Lois Austin the group's spokesperson uh naively accepted transport on a special train towards Bo road to join the fry once the Train
03:10:42 road to join the fry once the Train dubed the Red Express arrived and the demonstrators including another number ofl activists who were in the vicinity had boarded it it became clear that police had no intention of delivering
03:10:54 police had no intention of delivering their charges to Bo Road and the train went nonstop to ear's court my question to you is is this your
03:11:08 to you is is this your reporting I think that's an amalgam of a couple of reports were you involved in this
03:11:14 this event um Again difficult to say probably um
03:11:23 again I don't want to say probably because I can see that this is the yre bits are probably not mine um the A&L bits are probably mine in relation to the account of about 150
03:11:43 in relation to the account of about 150 swp ANL um demonstrat as cornering five Dutch skin heads and relatively modest violence being Meed out does is that Accord uh with the ANL in other words they're not that
03:11:54 ANL in other words they're not that violent possibly with some ANL people that they're not that violent um and who knows what was
03:12:07 knows what was said uh that caused that to take place if you can't answer his question say yeah I don't know my next question again if you can't answer it say so um why are uh were they uh courageous in battle almost Point Madness you'd have to ask the
03:12:23 Madness you'd have to ask the offer thank you uh and do you know anything about the Red Express doesn't ring a bell to me can we take that down please and go to
03:12:34 27957 this is tab
03:12:46 188 and if we could go to the next page please
03:13:00 uh if we could blow up the start of it please so we can orientate
03:13:07 ourselves uh this is a report uh dating from February 1994 says the following information has been received from a secret and reliable source it would appear that in the way of the recent anti-nazi League ANL Deb
03:13:19 of the recent anti-nazi League ANL Deb barkle at brain tree is that the report we were just looking at I'm guessing it
03:13:30 we were just looking at I'm guessing it must be and the recent Spate of attacks on youths of Asian Heritage and so-called
03:13:32 so-called ANL a the so-called ANL hitters phone tree has once again become moted this is particularly disappointing in view of the superb relations the ANL enjoy with
03:13:48 the superb relations the ANL enjoy with search light which means it is often in a position to attack the Nazis thus attempts are being made to reorganize the hitters unit who are generally people who can handle themselves and
03:13:59 people who can handle themselves and would be willing to attack the right wing it is agreed that they should not
03:14:14 wing it is agreed that they should not have a name L they fall into the Trap of being uh elitist and their actions must be sanctioned by the Central Committee of the Socialist Workers Party this author authorization will be granted to Julie Waton but only if their actions are seen to be political and not
03:14:30 are seen to be political and not squaded privacy long-term member of the Socialist Workers Party swp and worker at the ANL headquarters has been told to select comrades who are trustworthy and have the right physical and political characteristics to carry out this work
03:14:44 characteristics to carry out this work prior to Welling and at Brick Lane such H's activity had been sanctioned by the party but on an ad hoc basis this new
03:14:57 party but on an ad hoc basis this new proposal would put the unit on a cons on a constant footing it is envisaged that the unit will consist of between I think
03:15:22 the unit will consist of between I think it's 40 and 70 members it is interesting to note that Chris bambury who played a significant role on the two previous occasions mentioned above has been somewhat sidelined and the key to setting up the unit is now controlled by
03:15:33 Waton is that uh your reporting it Bears your stamp at the bottom excuse me I'm guessing it
03:15:38 is where have you got this intelligence
03:15:49 from I'm not aware where it's come from at now I'm not aware I'm no longer aware where it came from this document goes a lot further than the previous references we've seen
03:16:02 than the previous references we've seen to a hits group doesn't it Absolut isn't a key difference that it is talking about attack not defense interesting
03:16:15 yeah is it right I believe it's right if that's what I wrote then I believe it's correct
03:16:24 correct and it talks about hits being sanctioned ad hoc prior to Welling mhm we haven't had any reporting about any such hits what is that supposed to be a reference to I think it's a reference to it being sanctioned if something were to have happened that's what that's a a
03:16:39 happened that's what that's a a reference to so something um no I don't know if bambur actually did something don't know but I wasn't I'm trying to think as I'm saying it I don't think I was on anything where actually took place and my guess was later on that
03:16:52 place and my guess was later on that Julie Waton was put in place to actually dampen it well again we've normally seen Julie Waterson on your account been
03:17:08 Julie Waterson on your account been brought in to calm Chris bamry down so isn't this rather odd again that Waterson is replacing bambur correct so won replacing bambury to do the hitters because OB there's some call for the
03:17:20 because OB there's some call for the hitters but actually would they ever be utilized that's the difference is what I'm saying now what I can say is and I should say this I don't know why but we I did have some connection and I'm
03:17:32 I did have some connection and I'm thinking was it with bambur or was it with one of those Fellas on that page and we met with a guy who was some search light and he was basically uh amongst the Nazis he was a
03:17:44 basically uh amongst the Nazis he was a skin head like the Nazis everything but he's is actually a suchite guy who later had to flee for his
03:17:58 had to flee for his life and there's some reports on that so we were getting information from that about where the Nazis were coming back to the report isn't the idea of Julie Waton coming
03:18:20 Waton coming in to lead a new constantly available M hitter Squad that is going to attack rather than defend completely contrary to the reporting you'd given about Waterson before then this is what I'm saying I don't think it's completely contrary I my
03:18:33 think it's completely contrary I my belief is that that that was what was said at the time because I wouldn't have written it otherwise looking at it now it may well have been that she was brought in to say that's what would
03:18:44 brought in to say that's what would happen to those individuals but it was never going to happen but I don't know I easy answer I can't remember the swp
03:18:55 I easy answer I can't remember the swp as you will have heard through Dr German have asserted that there's no truth in a hitter Squad she right about that uh she's not right at
03:19:08 she's not right at all can we take that down please and go to
03:19:10 to 28019 tab 211
03:19:30 thank you after the cop could we have the thank you um if we just look at the under the first main paragraph of text under one this is um it's very difficult to see the date 24th of June
03:19:49 to see the date 24th of June 1994 MH um it would appear that the idea put forward by socialist work Workers Party s swp Central Committee Member Chris bambury to form an organized security unit termed hitters within the swp to defend it in the anti-nazi league has been vetoed by Julie Waterson B
03:20:03 has been vetoed by Julie Waterson B bambury had gone as far as compiling a list of physically competent comrades who he wanted to approach to join his band not only has Waterson vetoed
03:20:20 band not only has Waterson vetoed bamber's scheme she has also ousted two of his lieutenants privacy privacy and privacy uh from their jobs in the ANL office privacy and privacy figured highly on bamber's list of hitters both have been told that they are a disruptive influence and are banned from
03:20:35 disruptive influence and are banned from working in the ANL offices forth with so it appears on the basis of this report that any idea of hitters is going out of the window which is what I said might well have been the case so that makes sense but it is also isn't it
03:20:49 sense but it is also isn't it difficult to understand how one moment Julie Waton is supposed to be now in charge flaws the es and flaws of the circumstance everybody knew that everybody else had such an organization
03:21:02 everybody else had such an organization they all knew that and as you heard the yre had one the panther had something going for themselves various people had something going for themselves the only people who had nothing going for themselves was FW so I could see why it
03:21:14 themselves was FW so I could see why it was said yeah this is what we'll do keep comrades on board this is well not comrades actually to keep those on boarding the ANL who were so orientated this is what we'll do the Conrad will
03:21:25 this is what we'll do the Conrad will still be comrades at the end of the day I guess so I can see how that happened and then with an opportune moment bang
03:21:42 finished can we move now to a planned blood and honor gig um for 1 of October 1994 it's
03:21:44 1994 it's 742 898
03:21:47 742 898 tab
03:22:02 221 if we just orientate ourselves First 1st of October 1994 event at Charing Cross
03:22:03 Cross station organized by the anti-nazi league a demonstration to prevent a blood and honor concert believed to be going to take place this day see below organized by Rahul Patel numbers likely
03:22:22 organized by Rahul Patel numbers likely to attend unknown likelihood of disorder very likely if opposing sides actually do confront each other mood hostile event advertised By Word of Mouth then the text uh a source within the ANL hierarchy has heard that a blood and
03:22:33 hierarchy has heard that a blood and honor gig is to be staged this Saturday and that it is the intention of the ANL to confront wouldbe concert goers at Charing Cross railway station normally the party would be content just to
03:22:51 the party would be content just to derive publicity and hence recruitment from such a confrontation the leaders would maneuver demonstrators into a position whereby police could segregate them from the fascist by use of barriers at the
03:23:06 fascist by use of barriers at the latter's redirection point once securely protected by police the demonstrators would then be content to chant their slogans and wave their banners should the venue for the concert then become known the demonstrators would make their
03:23:19 known the demonstrators would make their way there on mass but only if the police remained in tow in the hope that their sheer presence would cause the concert to be
03:23:29 to be abandoned why only if the police remained in tow because frankly if it's a blood on a gig practically everybody at that gig is willing to fight and that's not the same for the
03:23:47 fight and that's not the same for the ANL no it's not the same for the ANL and of course you you got to be very brave to take that gig on on this occasion however it appears that the leadership of the Socialist Workers Party has
03:23:58 of the Socialist Workers Party has sanctioned a different tactic in that in addition to the above a small group of comrades who can handle themselves will
03:24:11 comrades who can handle themselves will attend the redirection point avoid being barricaded in with the larger group and hopefully do battle with the fascists
03:24:19 that's clearly not all the fascists that's one that's a contingent you wouldn't fight them all that's for
03:24:32 sure who was the source in the ANL hierarchy your guess is as good as mine who are the leaders who sanctioned this small group
03:24:42 action to me as I said this sounds like an
03:24:44 an agent a source with this is if we go back can we see the see what it says on the drop
03:24:54 the drop down triangle station [Music]
03:24:55 [Music] London the following has been received from the secret and reliable source do you actually
03:25:06 you actually know I don't know who who who who who that is I I I don't understand why that's written in that way that's not good if you if if you don't know then
03:25:18 good if you if if you don't know then I'm just look I'm just reading the rest of it I don't want you to
03:25:31 speculate no I'm not going to say I'm not going to put my name to it I don't know
03:25:33 know it
03:25:34 it um if we go look at page two it says in fact their Carriage will probably not be put to the test since their original information probably is out of date can
03:25:49 information probably is out of date can can you recall whether anything actually happened as I said I'm not even putting my name to it because I'm not sure that that's the
03:26:06 case can we take that down now please H and move back as I said I would to the Joy Gardner uh campaign you have described in your
03:26:17 campaign you have described in your witness statement a meeting at at which you spoke
03:26:20 you spoke correct when was that what do you mean the date yes I don't know what the date was I think it was the meeting that um was at the Civic
03:26:39 Center is it the Mee is it any of the meetings that I took you to reports of or is it a different
03:26:45 meeting I think it's the meeting that you highlight IED at the Civic Center I think that's the one at Tottenham Civic Center if you had spoken in the way you describe in the witness
03:27:01 in the way you describe in the witness statement at that meeting wouldn't you have recorded it in the meet in the meeting in the notes in your report well yeah that's why that's why I'm saying I think it's that meeting I don't
03:27:14 think it's that meeting I don't understand why it's not in there I know I've recorded it somewhere so I don't know where that report is was there another meeting at that Civic Center is my question really well again we're back to you do the giving of evidence I didn't ask question no but
03:27:25 evidence I didn't ask question no but you've seen all the documents I haven't seen the documents that's the point I'm making well you you've seen the documents that we've got all right so you haven't got the document okay provided them to you
03:27:38 provided them to you right so do you think I'm going to give you another chance after that may not have been that meeting but I don't know but I think it was in the Civic Center that's my recollection is that it's in the Civic Center and can you
03:27:51 and can you remember whether it was before or after the March on the 5th of August 1995 the March isn't what recollected it it was it was close to the event and I remember it being moving
03:28:12 event and I remember it being moving because it was one whereby there was a lot of people there and uh Joy gard's mother spoke at the meeting and it was extremely
03:28:18 extremely passionate and what was there was and this is what the point I'm making where they were some guys there who generally would not attend such
03:28:29 would not attend such meetings and what was the trigger for the particular anger on that occasion I believe somebody had said let well they showed how she was trusted
03:28:41 showed how she was trusted up um is this connected at all to the acquittal of the police officers or is this independent of their I can't recall
03:28:53 this independent of their I can't recall what what the reasoning was behind it in my mind I had it being before there was something to do with the quitt of the police officers um in fact I didn't even remember the quitt of the police officers in my mind it was to do after
03:29:13 officers in my mind it was to do after the murder of the the death of her that was in that's what's in my mind and at that time there was some me a meeting being called and it was attended by a hell of a lot of people and a spokesperson spoke about Turing down
03:29:25 spokesperson spoke about Turing down Tottenham etc etc but that was years earlier wasn't it the death somewhat earlier
03:29:33 earlier yeah I can't remember when the exact timings
03:29:40 are and are you sure you filed a report I filed a report on practically everything that I thought was worth filing on and definitely would have f the report on
03:29:56 that on your account it was quite some brinksmanship correct to suggest as a police
03:29:57 police officer that a group of people in violent angry mood go
03:30:09 go and Sack Mayfair absolutely knowing that they wouldn't do it of course but how could you know simple because people who are embittered like that frankly don't
03:30:22 embittered like that frankly don't really come out of the area these were rad men you know what I mean by that okay people of the street and um this
03:30:34 okay people of the street and um this was the the section that was most heated by this and when the the the speaker said you know some action should be taken blah blah blah burn this down all
03:30:46 taken blah blah blah burn this down all I was saying is what happened last time was and they all knew it when you did that in broadw to farm what happened you had literally months of police standing there and you couldn't do anything and you wrecked your own area and what happened nothing so let's go and take it downtown I know they're not going to go
03:31:06 downtown I know they're not going to go downtown but yes i' I have been captured I'd have been in deep trouble not about that you say in your report in your witness statement that you then had to explain yourself to the swp correct how did that come about because the S swp
03:31:18 did that come about because the S swp person was there and I can't remember who it
03:31:21 who it was but I guess therefore thought that I was undermining the swp because starting a riot was not their way of working no because not start not but
03:31:35 working no because not start not but because preventing a riot wasn't their way of
03:31:46 working that that I believe and my mind will not change on this I believe that had I have not done that on that day there would have been a riot in Tottenham the first Trace that we have got of this in the documents is your
03:32:01 got of this in the documents is your your witness is the is long after the when is that what what's the decades after all right okay what I would like to know is are you sure that this is a genuine recollection
03:32:14 sure that this is a genuine recollection absolutely and I'm asking that because I know you're a man who's been deeply affected by your deployment absolutely I'm sure that's a
03:32:31 I'm sure that's a recollection and I don't know why there isn't a report available it come comes up in your as reference to it in your Hearn interview and in your witness statement right okay absolutely sure yeah I'm
03:32:48 sure sir I've reached a point where it would be convenient for me at least uh if we stop and resumed tomorrow yes I think that the most significant um issues not yet covered are the two relationships are or not yes yes and I think it would been much better for you
03:33:02 think it would been much better for you and for all of us if you dealt with that for fresh
03:33:06 for fresh tomorrow than thank you will you be back here ready to do so at 10: absolutely then we'll uh resume at 10:00
03:33:14 tomorrow
03:33:44 for e