HN78 "Anthony 'Bobby' Lewis" Trevor Morris - Sexual Ethics and National Security

Full transcript

01:01:54 e e

01:03:02 there must be no um publication of uh anything said in the hearing uh between 10:21 and

01:03:09 10:21 and 1023 this may seem uh odd and arbitrary but can I assure those in the hearing room that there is good reason for the order and may I ask as well as insist that it is complied

01:03:25 that it is complied with Mr B thank you sir Mr Morris when you were Opera ating undercover did you ever address your mind to whether it was ethically

01:03:38 mind to whether it was ethically permissible uh to engage in sexual activity in your cover

01:03:47 identity I clearly did uh to some ethically

01:03:55 ethically ethically in terms of the service speciically in terms of my own perspective both both in terms of my own perspective for sure in terms of the service

01:04:08 service possibly probably what were your thoughts on that subject well my thoughts were that it that you know were at all possible that should not be the case um in terms of

01:04:21 should not be the case um in terms of the service there was Zero guidance on that issue and um

01:04:27 no assistance

01:04:33 actually but you knew that police offices must not act in a way which would bring the service into disrepute well this is where you and I often come into a bit of a difference because you talk about the police in general and I

01:04:49 talk about the police in general and I talk about National Security operations of the special branch which I conceive as two different things was there a sense then that you were in a special category because you were doing that sort of no there's a sense that we

01:05:03 sense that we were 1% maybe 2% of the Police Service that dealt with National Security operations and that this was a top secret

01:05:08 secret operation and that um uh we were performing tasks in terms of National Security and what I will also say is in

01:05:26 Security and what I will also say is in the course of our work going through my previous work I'd seen many instances where you would suggest that things should not be the case so if I mentioned Soul Smith example right I'll leave it that far I was on the safe African

01:05:37 that far I was on the safe African section just to just explain that the Bureau of State security was very active and so therefore Mr Morris can we can you answer my question pleas I am answering the question because I'm

01:05:49 answering the question because I'm answering the question in a way that that I can explain what I mean so therefore I knew that when we we saw activity like what was going on we would

01:06:01 activity like what was going on we would pass that activity forward and sometimes that activity would be perceived as not in the public interest to go any further so even when it was clearcut I could see issues that weren't clearcut in the

01:06:14 issues that weren't clearcut in the National Security area which would have been in the criminal area did you or did you not think it was ethical I think I answered that in the first instance to you

01:06:26 first instance to you so that we are clear what your answer is

01:06:39 so that we are clear what your answer is yes or no as I said before morally in my mind it was probably not IAL this a lorded

01:06:44 lorded statement clearly not ideal clearly not the best thing to do but then of course there's a lot of different issues that come into play in terms

01:06:53 terms of obviously one maintaining but more importantly you not being who you think you are at the time that's a completely separate issue

01:07:04 time that's a completely separate issue I don't think it is are you able to give me a yes or no answer did you think I can give you a straightforward yes or no answer as me sitting here not involved in that activity but for me to give you a yes or no activity whilst involved in

01:07:16 a yes or no activity whilst involved in that activity it's completely different and you have to understand my mindset at the time I'm going to give it one more try Mr and I can only answer in the same way I'm not I'm not trying to be you

01:07:32 way I'm not I'm not trying to be you know Mis uh what's the right way I'm not trying to avoid the question I'm just trying to say to you if I sit here and say one thing that's great but in the circumstance I was in it's something completely

01:07:52 different did you consider that the rules were different because you are doing what you describe as National Security work

01:08:01 clear by which I mean working for the SDS clear clear working for special Branch yeah C clearly there was no um I'm sure you're aware that I asked for a female partner um to be

01:08:12 for a female partner um to be provided and that assistance was not given and I was told to deal with the issue that had come to me by myself going to come on it was very

01:08:26 myself going to come on it was very difficult we're going to come on to that later my question was did you consider that the rules were different as an undercover police

01:08:38 as an undercover police officer not as an undercover police officer as a special Branch officer in that type of work um purely and simply because I had agents that would be doing the same by that I mean sources of

01:08:50 the same by that I mean sources of intelligence that were doing the same um which you'd call cheses I guess today in general police work uh who who were doing the same they're not police officers are they Mr M no no but you we

01:09:06 officers are they Mr M no no but you we talking you asking a question of morals and I'm trying to answer you on that perspective um the big problem is if if you don't want that to come to the light at all you shouldn't have police doing it at

01:09:18 you shouldn't have police doing it at all if that's what you're going to say you're putting people in an invidious position did you address your mind to

01:09:29 position did you address your mind to whether it would be lawful to engage in sexual activity I didn't think it was not lawful I don't think there's anything that said it wasn't I don't think it was unlawful my question was did you address your mind to it did you think about

01:09:42 it that's years ago now did I think whether it was lawful if I did think whether it was lawful I wouldn't have thought it was unlawful but it that way you know in terms of the law uh you were interviewed by offic

01:09:58 law uh you were interviewed by offic offers from operation Hearn weren't you correct in 2013 could we have up please 722

01:10:23 645 uh this is the record of your interview with operation Hearn officers could we go to page 10

01:10:41 please thank you the very bottom of the page it's the very last thing recorded in the

01:10:42 in the interview it reads sexual relationships Morris stated that he had no idea whatsoever about Bob Lambert's sexual relationships prior to the media

01:10:57 sexual relationships prior to the media stories and similarly had never heard of any other comparable circumstance uh does that accurately

01:11:09 circumstance uh does that accurately record what you told operation Lear yeah it it it it it it does is it right that you knew nothing

01:11:23 does is it right that you knew nothing whatsoever about Mr Lambert's for sexual relationships one of which had given rise to the birth

01:11:34 one of which had given rise to the birth of TBS absolutely no idea whatsoever are you sure that nobody ever sure I had no idea whatsoever about that similarly had never heard of any other comparable circumstance compared to Bob Lambert no

01:11:54 never you did not tell the operation Hearn officers that you had engaged in sexual activity with two women did you uh as far as I recollect I probably didn't they never asked me in that sense I

01:12:09 they never asked me in that sense I don't think are you sure I'm not sure I don't I don't think they asked me it right I'm not sure I'm not sure at all these are officers who were

01:12:22 investigating that very issue they well they they invest to my mind when they came to to me from my recollection they were more interested in the issue of um

01:12:39 were more interested in the issue of um connection with the Lawrence family that was my recollection of it you knew that they were investigating amongst other things sexual relationships between undercover police officers members of the public no I didn't they came to me

01:12:51 the public no I didn't they came to me out of the blue I spoke to them I I've had very little contact with officers since I

01:12:52 since I left and they came to me out of the blue spoke to me about this issue that was it in fact I don't think I've had contact with any xsds

01:13:06 with any xsds officer can we take that down please and have up

01:13:29 37218 this is a document um from the inquiries proceedings this is an impact statement which you made in November 2017 okay some years later presumably if we look at um paragraph 24 Under The Heading Intimate

01:13:40 24 Under The Heading Intimate Relationships says I have been asked about the above and the references at ra 413 to allegations about a relationship

01:13:59 413 to allegations about a relationship with a woman named B MH so by this stage an allegation had been made if we look down at paragraph 25 see what you

01:14:11 25 see what you say while working under cover I was a subject of advances from one woman involved with the

01:14:23 involved with the swp had one or two brief one-off sexual encounters with women unconnected with my work which I would not describe as relationships and had an intimate relationship with be I cannot remember be's full first name or her

01:14:40 be's full first name or her surname but do recall roughly where she lived very rly yeah first of all one or two right it's one brief oneoff sexual

01:14:53 oneoff sexual counters why would you have said one or two if it was only one don't know that's why it says one or two but clearly one Mr Morris is the reality there was more than one no that's not

01:15:07 there was more than one no that's not the reality and are you clear that I'm asking you about any form of sexual activity with any member of the public whilst you are in your undercover identity

01:15:23 yeah um and so the one that you're giving evidence of is Jenny yeah must be y any others no I'm saying it must be Jenny yeah yeah uh moving to be being very

01:15:38 yeah uh moving to be being very careful not to say anything which would or might identify be mhm you could not at that stage remember her full first name or her Sur correct

01:15:52 her full first name or her Sur correct I'm I still really don't know a f first name and a surname I had forgotten I'm guessing from what I

01:16:06 forgotten I'm guessing from what I called her what her F first name is but I never really knew where Fus name can we take that of an indication of how seriously you took this relationship no

01:16:22 seriously you took this relationship no no it's just that just that um that was what I called her in a shortened name which could be shortened for several different full names I'm guessing I don't know we'll come to the details in a short while but you did have a a relationship which you described as I

01:16:38 relationship which you described as I think on off or something like that for for a long time your words for about a year or so yeah yeah quite a long time on off and you don't I think she described it as that as well maybe the last half of it and you don't remember her name a full name no no I don't I

01:16:50 her name a full name no no I don't I don't I I I do now obviously because I've seen it but but I couldn't remember it that time as I said to you when I left that

01:16:59 left that organization I dumped everything out of my

01:17:04 my mind and I'm not so sure I ever knew her full first name can we move now to your deployment and you have given evidence in your witness

01:17:15 in your witness statement of uh and again we're protecting the identity an influential female within the swp uh you say coming on to you uh

01:17:30 uh you say coming on to you uh MH was I'm understanding your written evidence to be that was before you had met be

01:17:43 met be correct and before therefore you had started any relationship with her correct and you say she accused you of being a spy

01:17:54 being a spy correct and you rais that back at the office

01:18:00 office correct again being careful not to utter any name you shouldn't name using the cipher list if you need to who did you raise it

01:18:12 with for sure I raised it with

01:18:19 86 sorry hn 86

01:18:21 86 and

01:18:26 and potentially also or hn 67 but I definitely with hn

01:18:34 86 that is much more certain evidence than you've given on paper on that question why are you so much is it is much more certain idea on paper what did I WR can you show me what I wrote on paper sorry um yes we'll come to

01:18:54 that yeah page 23 of the witness statement please which is

01:18:58 um

01:19:15 35076 okay

01:19:30 on page 24 please so the next page

01:19:32 page um you let's pick it up um from luckily luckily as I had been made aware in advance I was ready to respond to this and I denied the

01:19:48 respond to this and I denied the allegation and seemingly satisfied swp woman and others that I was not a spy this led to me raising this issue with

01:20:01 this led to me raising this issue with DCI h& 6 or possibly his replacement as I cannot recall who the DCI was when this occur right this is good point you're making um as I said here to my mind I write it down I say this led to

01:20:12 mind I write it down I say this led to me raising the issue with DCI 86 that's what I thought it was then I must have you thought it through in my mind and I said to you the timings are not great for me or it could be his replacement I think it's 86 but it could be as I you know but if

01:20:28 86 but it could be as I you know but if the timings are correct I'm pretty sure it's

01:20:30 it's 86 that's what I'm

01:20:37 saying and I'm pretty sure there but then I put the possibility in that it could have been the next guy but I think it's 86 in fact is it not the other way around was not the other guy before 86

01:20:50 around was not the other guy before 86 could you tell me that I think Mr Morris we're we're in the position where you give the evidence and I no I accept that but you know the information the timelines and i' and I've said throughout that my timelines are not good understood so I'm trying to I'm trying to give you all the evidence I

01:21:04 trying to give you all the evidence I can as truthfully as I can so what I'm asking really is was the other DCI before 86 it's just a simple question understood Mr Morris um I'm going to ask you who what that conversation what is

01:21:20 you who what that conversation what is your recollection of what was said and right basically what I said was if I actually to bring It Forward forward and to be

01:21:27 to be more um fully embracing prior to the problem I had with the yeah you don't name us so with the S swp woman as you caller

01:21:40 caller um one if not more s swp man had spoken

01:21:53 um one if not more s swp man had spoken to me um uh in the same field we were um gay gay men had spoken to me and I said I'm not gay um

01:22:01 um so the problem is when the woman spoke to

01:22:02 to me I now know I've got a problem which is why I brought it to them because I've turned her down and I've turned a man down I've no turned a woman down why am I turning people

01:22:14 down why am I turning people down this is a big problem that I've never got so I go to this DCI and as I

01:22:25 never got so I go to this DCI and as I said it could also be the DI I may have been there I don't know and I said to him um something to again I can't remember exactly how I said it but something to this about I need some coverage here from somebody from the branch to cover me from the special

01:22:40 branch to cover me from the special Branch to cover me female yeah to say this is my girlfriend or whatever to which he said something like we don't do that you'll have to sort it out

01:22:54 yourself was there any reference to your wife and children when you were dis discussing this none whatsoever you mean from me or from him from either side right well clearly I was saying I don't want to do it but but

01:23:05 was saying I don't want to do it but but the reality was he didn't mention it and he said we just don't do that I said well I need somebody to cover me because otherwise I'm in trouble were there was there any reference

01:23:15 reference to any steps that you might take well on on my own you mean to do well you've you've told us that you were told to sort it out yourself correct was

01:23:28 told to sort it out yourself correct was there any discussion as to how you might do that you just said sort it out yourself was there any discussion

01:23:39 yourself was there any discussion about how other uos had dealt with this same or similar issues no not for my

01:23:48 recollection uh I'm saying that's not from my recol I don't know if you did but from my recollection as I sit here now I don't and I don't want to put negatives into his mouth as I sit here now I do not recall him saying somebody

01:24:02 now I do not recall him saying somebody else did this or somebody else did that as I sit here now my recollection is that he said you're going to have to sort that

01:24:14 out if we get your witness statement up again please page5 paragraph

01:24:21 204 3576

01:24:36 and uh looking uh under little a mhm um about halfway down the page uh you say after the instant when the influential s swp woman had

01:24:48 the influential s swp woman had expressed The View that I was a spy as a result of my turning down her advances it may be that I took took up with B to rebut any further Su suspicion I cannot

01:25:03 rebut any further Su suspicion I cannot say that is the actual reason but it may well have been a subconscious factor in the impact statement I say that I vaguely recall someone suggested that a

01:25:18 vaguely recall someone suggested that a relationship with a woman other than the influential swp woman might create a distraction and calm the situation down this is correct but but I cannot now say who said this this was during the conversation when I made SDS

01:25:33 during the conversation when I made SDS management aware of the problem and when I was told to sort the matter out myself what what is your recollection now

01:25:44 now about a suggestion that a relationship with a woman other than the influential s swp woman might create to

01:25:56 influential s swp woman might create to distraction as I said to you it may well have been said but I don't recollect

01:26:09 it can you recall anybody at any other time saying anything to that effect or anything vaguely

01:26:22 similar you're asking really difficult memories to I can't as with all of the process what you've been asking is to be absolutely certain and to be fair it's

01:26:33 absolutely certain and to be fair it's very difficult to be absolutely certain unless it's really impactive on something that that happened like you

01:26:45 something that that happened like you know you are a spy and in fact how that worked she didn't tell me that I was a spy it was in the branch committee meeting and I remember this because you know it made me shiver two of the people in that meeting and yes they were women because a vast

01:27:00 and yes they were women because a vast majority of people in the swp were women one of them said to me you know what she's been saying you're a

01:27:07 spy right so that's what it was she was saying I was a spy which is what I've related here but I didn't go through the whole

01:27:11 whole story

01:27:18 story so I can't argue that somebody didn't say something else but I can't recall that being the case now as I sit here going to move now to B

01:27:36 to B yep you met in around March 1992 didn't you if those are determins that's what you're saying then that's the case uh and did you meet at a

01:27:47 meeting again I think just yesterday when I was looking through some of the bits on there I said it was somewhere else but she said it was a meeting so maybe it is a meeting uh can we take the statement down please

01:28:02 uh can we take the statement down please and have up the document which is at tab 39

01:28:05 39 740

01:28:26 395 uh could we uh move past the attach minute sheet please to page thank you this is a report dat of the 11th of March

01:28:34 March 1992 about the eastend offset limited which is the print shop of the Socialist Workers Party

01:28:53 um and it's all about that and at page six on page three sorry paragraph six on page three it says recently a precedent has been set in so far as the swp has broken with tradition and security and has employed a non-member within the

01:29:06 has employed a non-member within the print shop the new employee B will begin her duties in tes sales in the coming weeks in the hope that she will be able to Canvas more work on behalf of the print shop M uh

01:29:19 print shop M uh so why did you include be I didn't in this report I didn't and I've said that to my legal team as far as I'm concerned I didn't write that

01:29:30 I didn't write that report can we move now to take that down and have

01:29:54 28336 this is a second report which refers to

01:29:55 refers to be this is a report on an individual uh dated the 14th of April

01:30:10 individual uh dated the 14th of April 1992 stamped box 500 so it went to the security service below that if we can expand the uh

01:30:23 stamp MH that stamped as being filed as one of your reports isn't it but there's a different ref refence there isn't there you you're putting 78 but they're putting a different reference aren't they if you could um take that down we have ciphered the reference yeah

01:30:40 have ciphered the reference yeah sure this this is a report on B isn't it yeah you see what I said to my legal team is very clear to me because I know nothing about the book shop uh the um print shop I said I think that is an agent that either we mpsb or the

01:30:59 agent that either we mpsb or the security service have in the print shop not me Mr Morris uh the documents were being

01:31:05 being provided by uh it may say my name on it but it's not me the MPS

01:31:09 MPS to the security service we've had evidence about how they were how SDS documents correct came to be filed correct this is one of your reports

01:31:23 correct this is one of your reports isn't and and no and I've said to you on several reports you you mentioned throughout this period that some of those reports are not mine and I say exact s example the one that said colored the other day I'd never use that language so I'm saying to you now this

01:31:39 language so I'm saying to you now this is not my report and I said before I've never put a report in on who you're calling

01:31:46 be Mr Morris by this stage you knew be didn't you yeah and I've thought it's not my

01:31:54 not my report can we have a look at the text at the bottom of the page thank you B was the first non-member of the swp to be employed in The swp Print Shop East End offset however recently she has joined the Hackney South

01:32:09 the Hackney South Branch you knew that be was a member of uh the swp didn't you yeah of course of course I do she has been put in charge of publicity for

01:32:20 has been put in charge of publicity for Marxism as pertains to that I don't know to advertisements that I don't know that's the point I'm making to you this is not my report I don't know what she was doing there and I definitely don't know whether she was put in charge of anything from any side I'm saying to you

01:32:31 anything from any side I'm saying to you now that there was an agent in the print shop by agent you know what I mean by an agent okay that's what we use a paid informant if you will in that print shop

01:32:45 informant if you will in that print shop either from us mpsb or from the security service this is not my report about that I am adamant did you or did you not know at this stage in your relationship with

01:32:57 relationship with be what she did for a living I didn't have a clue that she was in I think I knew she was in The Print Shop I did not know what she did within the print shop

01:33:15 know what she did within the print shop as I had no connection to the print shop you are an SDS officer uh and as we've seen from the reports we've been over for two days you were hoovering up a great deal of detail correct about a lot of people and as you know again when I've done that I've put a reason in for

01:33:28 I've done that I've put a reason in for doing that to my mind knowing her I saw no threat in any way shape or means either be violent or be it in terms of well don't need to be violent but in terms of um um um uh subversion or in

01:33:44 terms of um um um uh subversion or in terms of Counter Intelligence to my mind there was nothing that suggested that there needed to be a report on it that simple hence no report from me you've

01:33:58 simple hence no report from me you've put in countless reports and individuals we looked whom I thought were either involved in subversion Counter Intelligence or violence or furthering the aims of the swp which works in that

01:34:11 the aims of the swp which works in that field Mr Morris we went was not we went to one yesterday could you show me the one who you told me was just a rank and file member of the swp rank and file doesn't mean that that you that there's not a reason why you should be reported on example if you go back the rank and

01:34:26 on example if you go back the rank and file person of the S swp who was going nowhere within the m swp at all the young lady that I said to you had um uh mental health problems I put a reporting on her because I thought she was

01:34:37 on her because I thought she was potentially dangerous so there's a reason for it with B there is zero reason Mr Morris you will be aware that b says that she wasn't in charge of

01:34:50 b says that she wasn't in charge of publicity for Marxism so that might have help me then cuz I would have known what she was actually doing is what you're saying what I'm going to suggest you now is that you overstated the position in

01:35:01 is that you overstated the position in why would I do that well I'm why would you do that were you trying no there's zero Advantage for me in over stating anything why would I do that so I'm trying to ask you what's the point of me over stating a

01:35:13 over stating a position if we carry on this particular position enhances her regular work as a Telly salesperson from The Print Shop although the subject is active in the anti- nuts League her

01:35:27 active in the anti- nuts League her membership of the swp would seem to be more pragmatically based than ideologically believing her employment is more secure as a party member well

01:35:39 is more secure as a party member well you just said to me again that I should know things and I knew that it wasn't her intention to just stay working in the print shop that she was doing other things so

01:35:48 things so again this this just Rings not true to me so the reason reason that's put in is because I as I said before I think there's an agent in The Print Shop who wrote that um to provide

01:36:06 wrote that um to provide intelligence it's true isn't it that be was um

01:36:08 was um a was not uh pragmatic she was a ideologically paid up member of the swp

01:36:27 to be fair when I knew be I wasn't certain

01:36:36 how committed she was to the S swp she was committed to um anti-racism she was committed to doing the best to people in

01:36:48 doing the best to people in society as my recollection of her she was a fairly decent person um in so far as she aimed and hoped to

01:37:01 in so far as she aimed and hoped to assist people but I would have never put put her down and I was surprised when she said she stayed in the s swp for so long to be fair could we take that down please and could we have up B uh 17 28309

01:37:48 thank you again top left will see that this is a an event performer which has been filed by the security service um as one of yours stated the 29th of April

01:38:01 of yours stated the 29th of April 1992 uh it's about uh an event at forthcoming at uh Alexandra Palace

01:38:15 forthcoming at uh Alexandra Palace social workers s swp were organizing it it's the swp's MayDay rally this event was a big deal wasn't

01:38:21 it generally

01:38:32 yeah well generally they went to skes but here they were having a made they were having this is why I'm saying generally because I think this is the first time I was sort of aware of this one so they were must yeah you right they must have gone toess before yes if we look at the text below the MayDay

01:38:45 we look at the text below the MayDay rally is presently the major channel for all swp activity with slightly more than one week to the event only, 1500 tickets had been purchased the party was paid

01:39:02 had been purchased the party was paid £33,000 for the rental of the premises but recently a mistake was made by privacy when he waited until last Thursday to inform the media officer B to enter the rally in free listing Publications such as city limits with

01:39:24 Publications such as city limits with the result that publicity will not reach the targeted public in sufficient time uh b b's evidence is she was not the media well this is my point because I wouldn't know this can I ask you first

01:39:38 wouldn't know this can I ask you first of all was be the media officer I don't know this is the point I'm making this this is all Bookshop orientated sorry um print shop and and proves absolutely my point I do not know what happened in

01:39:56 point I do not know what happened in that well were you writing reports which exaggerated the importance of some of the people that you were reporting about but I can imagine that an that what you would call an informant an agent would

01:40:14 would call an informant an agent would look I don't need to exaggerate reports why there is zero advantage to an SDS officer ADV well definitely from my perspective to exaggerate because there's enough stuff to write about I have no recollection of this at all because it isn't mine uh can we take that down

01:40:33 please uh I'd like to ask you now a little bit uh about what might be called the getting to know one another phase of your

01:40:42 your relationship it's right isn't it that she let you know that she was a single mother yep and did that happen at a fairly early stage I I I cannot recall

01:40:55 fairly early stage I I I cannot recall what the getting together phase was but so I can't I can't say yes or no I would imagine it would have done I would imagine it would have been and she let you know uh that she had two young

01:41:07 you know uh that she had two young children yep we are protecting the precise age of the children for privacy reasons uh but you uh have estimated

01:41:21 reasons uh but you uh have estimated them uh in your statement as four and five my you have been mistaken about that and might have been a bit younger could have been as I said to you I my memory is very poor and I couldn't remember so I put down what I thought was this was the circumstance it could

01:41:36 was this was the circumstance it could be younger could be a bit older I don't know and she let you know that she had been in a violent relationship no don't recall that are you sure yes I don't recall

01:41:51 you sure yes I don't recall that I'm not saying she didn't I'm saying I do not recall it the children had contact with their

01:42:04 the children had contact with their father uh at uh be's parents' house again I know nothing about that you say you know nothing about that despite

01:42:15 despite being involved with her for about a year I know nothing about the relationship with be's children and the father at all

01:42:30 you were aware that being a member of the swp because there were Crush facilities enabled her to get out and meet

01:42:47 people I actually don't remember the crash

01:42:49 crash facilities um or child care facilities yeah yeah I mean in in obviously it's not something that came into my mind I'm I'm not

01:43:01 that came into my mind I'm I'm not familiar about child care facilities for people coming to meetings not not at all were you aware that she was opportunities to get out

01:43:13 that she was opportunities to get out socially for her were rare because she was a single mother

01:43:29 I'm thinking because I'm not sure that I was aware of that obviously if you had friends and she did have friends maybe the friends would have looked after the children so I'm not I'm not going to turn around and say I was aware that opportunities were limited no I I

01:43:41 opportunities were limited no I I wouldn't I wouldn't say that but on the other hand not knowing the circumstance with her friends I'm not you know I

01:43:52 with her friends I'm not you know I can't say that she would have left them with the friends so I I don't really know

01:43:58 and that she was just beginning to do so just beginning to start to socialize again I don't recall that being just beginning to socialize again I don't know you told her uh that your previous

01:44:15 know you told her uh that your previous relationship was over no I told her that my previous relationship was probably over but my intention was as I think I

01:44:27 over but my intention was as I think I said that to everybody because that was part of my Legend was to get back if I could with my wife and children you told her uh that you had two children who you missed a great deal absolutely correct and you told her that you had

01:44:47 correct and you told her that you had destroyed your previous relationship by committing a grave sexual indiscretion absolutely

01:44:56 correct you also gave her to understand that you were a bit of a ladies man and had not been at all faithful to your that I would say is not the case fully

01:45:09 that I would say is not the case fully no what did uh you give be to understand uh about how faithful you had been to your fictional ex-wife I said I wasn't uh particularly fa faithful at all

01:45:20 uh particularly fa faithful at all because of the activity that I did which caused the split up and i' said that on

01:45:32 caused the split up and i' said that on purpose because I wanted anybody whom I connected with to think well her to be let's be realistic her to think that there's no future with this

01:45:45 guy had you told her that you had been a DJ in Germany

01:45:51 Germany correct and that um a lot of women had found you attractive and you had not not particularly no you had had sex with a number of I didn't say

01:46:02 had sex with a number of I didn't say that a lot of women family attractive I didn't say that at all I don't think I mean I I can't did you give her to understand that you had had had a number of sexual

01:46:08 of sexual relationships with German women whilst you were a DJ in Germany that isn't my recollection but I may have said it I don't think I've said it in the fashion

01:46:21 don't think I've said it in the fashion that you are saying it if that were the case um

01:46:31 but that may have I I don't even think I would have said it that way to be fair I don't think I said it like that no not at

01:46:33 at all when did you decide that having committed a grave sexual

01:46:43 sexual indiscretion would be part of your

01:46:50 legend that was probably when I actually got into this circumstance

01:46:59 um and the reality is is that I didn't want it to be perceived that I was somebody that you could rely on in the first instance you could rely on and

01:47:08 on and secondly um I had to cover why I you know I was saying I wanted to get back with my wife but I was in England so I knew I'd had to

01:47:21 was in England so I knew I'd had to cover that somehow why would I be in England and not in Germany so it was going to be part of my Legend regardless because I had to say why I was sitting in England when I should

01:47:33 was sitting in England when I should have actually if I was trying to get back to with my wife to sit in Germany that's what I'm driving at Mr Morris you must as you say you must have thought about that yeah absolutely I'm asking

01:47:44 about that yeah absolutely I'm asking you when did you think about that did you think it might have been in the legend to start off with but I don't know if I utilize it this is a misunderstanding I don't know if I utilize it straight away so you had decided is it fair to

01:47:59 away so you had decided is it fair to say then you had decided whilst building your legend that part of it would be grave sexual indiscretion broken your marriage explained why you not necessarily great sexual indiscretion

01:48:10 necessarily great sexual indiscretion but that I had a broken marriage I was going to get back with my wife somehow by Hook by crook um but I then realized as time went on

01:48:23 as time went on when you're in this doing this particular role you don't know what you're going to say all it's not all planned out ahead of time and you don't know what you're going to say until

01:48:36 know what you're going to say until you're actually performing it so things grow as you're doing it and and maybe sometimes you say something that now you're in trouble so you got to keep with it and that may have grown that way it wasn't an ideal

01:48:52 have grown that way it wasn't an ideal thing but I knew I had to cover why am I here and not in

01:49:03 here and not in Germany you've made very clear to us Mr Morris uh that you were using these details in your Legend to uh signal that you are not a long-term Prospect

01:49:22 long-term Prospect correct did you do that when you were in fact building your Legend anticipating there might be because I never anticipated at that level but I knew that once it once it started to happen that I had to come up with something there's just too many

01:49:33 something there's just too many questions and you have to cover it but what this is what I'm saying you don't look I've done a lot of undercover work before in in in various

01:49:45 various organizations this is be I'm talking about before I was on SDs um and I realized in doing that that you have to somehow think on your

01:50:03 that you have to somehow think on your feet so i' never Built My Legend totally like some others might have done it was fluid but what I did realize is that once you say something you've now got to remember it and stay with what you

01:50:16 said you flattered be didn't you how you mean flattered her it's a I mean you flattered her you paid her

01:50:27 paid her attention talked to her of course youed her of course you took an interest in her I took an interest in it that's a better way of put in it yeah I I don't want any

01:50:42 yeah I I don't want any details but when the relationship became physical you made the first move didn't you I don't

01:50:52 know you're saying you can't remember I don't know whether I made the first move or not I can't remember maybe she did maybe maybe I did I don't

01:50:58 know is this a matter of such inconsequence to you that you can't remember can you remember what first move you did I this is what I'm saying I don't know I'm just you're asking me to be realistic I'm being realistic I don't know who first moved across to try and

01:51:11 know who first moved across to try and kiss her or her tried to kiss me I don't know I don't have a clue like it's not that it's inconsequential it's that you can't remember these things especially when they're 30 years ago it became a

01:51:24 when they're 30 years ago it became a sexual relationship it did a factor at an early

01:51:29 an early stage Oh you mean in knowing her you mean yes probably yeah I would

01:51:38 imagine did you recognize that in her circumstances at the time she would be particularly receptive to the attention that you were paying her how would I didn't know what her circumstances

01:51:49 didn't know what her circumstances were unless you mean as a single mother is that what you're say yes well there's a thousand one single mothers so there not she's not particularly receptive to anything meant it's a single mother

01:52:00 anything meant it's a single mother coming out of a violent relation I don't know about the violent relation young children I don't know about the violent relationship and as I say there's a

01:52:12 relationship and as I say there's a thousand one single mothers in London as we speak right now and they were back then 30 years ago that that's not particularly

01:52:19 abnormal when you crossed the line into a sexual

01:52:20 a sexual relationship did you give any consideration to the fact that you were a police officer in an undercover

01:52:40 identity to be fair by then I was probably an activist going about their work as an activist Mr Morris by this stage you had been under cover for months not years hadn't you and by this stage

01:52:53 hadn't you and by this stage I was on the branch committee I was a total activist I had it doesn't me to be years I had subsumed myself into the

01:53:09 years I had subsumed myself into the organization I felt I was a comrade and that's as I was I had neglected my own family etc etc Mr Morris we went with some care through the reports earlier in your evidence who did and you don't start reporting consistently

01:53:23 start reporting consistently on the swp until about December MH 1991 this relationship is starting in about March 1992 and I've been in other organizations previously as we went

01:53:39 organizations previously as we went through and the reality is is that I was already as I said and I'll say it again I was already an activist fully involved fully entrenched fully part of the system and as I tried to explain to you the other day I was um uh basic

01:53:57 the other day I was um uh basic basically ashamed in one way that I was doing that but I always tried to drag myself back as to why I was doing

01:54:07 it why this is this is a mindset thing I don't know why why why were you doing it if you say you were thinking about why were you why you were doing it why were because I believed I was doing for the good of the nation I believe this was a subversive organization I was doing for the good are you talking now about

01:54:24 the good are you talking now about infiltrating the swp or sleeping with B I'm talking about infiltrating the swp I'm talking about my mindset as it related to

01:54:33 be you were filing at least the reports we've seen and maybe others that we've not been able to retrieve on whom on all the topics we looking at on

01:54:46 whom on all the topics we looking at on the topic we looked at but never filed a report on me at all you are filing you are filing reports absolutely about various subjects

01:54:55 various subjects absolutely and you are writing writing things up and handing them into the office because that is my role and that's my task and I and and it's something

01:54:59 something that you can look at any of the officers who are carrying this roll out any of them and you will find they were filing

01:55:10 them and you will find they were filing reports but it doesn't mean to say that they were fully still in any way shape or means p in perception of being a police officer doing police work indeed without the two days frankly you

01:55:24 without the two days frankly you wouldn't have been dragged back into it at all you did have the two days you were spend you were going to two meetings a week correct for about 2 hours 3 hours maybe you knew full well that you were a police officer when you began a sexual

01:55:35 officer when you began a sexual relationship with be didn't you absolutely but I also knew and I could tell you what was going that my primary perspective of myself was that I was an activist in the swp can I come back to

01:55:57 activist in the swp can I come back to my original question as a police officer in well we know entering into a sexual relationship undercover MH what consideration did you give to the fact you were a serving undercover police officer well you know we spoke

01:56:10 police officer well you know we spoke about that before and I keep saying it that we were in a different role this

01:56:21 that we were in a different role this was a totally and utterly non judicial operation it's an intelligence-led operation has nothing to do with judicial operation let me just explain and because of that I knew that for the rest of my life when I stopped doing this role that I have to

01:56:40 I stopped doing this role that I have to keep my head down and that I would never be able to show myself as I really was this is why that when I was at home I never laughed because people could understand my laugh this is why I never took my children to anything to do with their schooling never took them to hospital never took them to a doctor never saw their place and and this was

01:56:55 never saw their place and and this was going on from day one this is why some of our other colleagues which you'll know of never open the curtains in their house etc etc etc this is something that plays with your mind and your mental health is

01:57:07 health is destroyed so this is what I'm trying to tell

01:57:12 tell you can I take it from your answers that you did not give any thought whatsoever to the fact you're a police officer when you commenced a sexual relationship with be I maximum I would say was that I thought

01:57:27 maximum I would say was that I thought about maintaining cover but I don't even think that's true as I said it could well be that psychologically I was maintaining cover but on the other side it might be I was just living my life as that

01:57:45 individual I can't answer you any other way I I don't know what you want me to say I'm just trying to tell you the truth as I feel it B would not have consented to sex with with you so I don't know that if you if she had known

01:57:56 don't know that if you if she had known you were an undercover police officer I don't know that she's given evidence to that effect did you follow her evidence she may have done I mean but it never happened so she never had that

01:58:07 happened so she never had that circumstance that's like saying that no woman in the Second World War uh who was a Brit ever went with a German I mean it doesn't make any sense people can say things in the core light of day but is

01:58:20 things in the core light of day but is the reality that and it never happen so we can't test it are you asserting that she would I I'm not asserting anything I just don't

01:58:37 know did you give the matter any thought at the time I clearly give it some thought because I originally did not want to involve myself in that way but I had little choice and I think

01:58:50 had little choice and I think potentially that that may have laid apart but I'm not saying it is the only part I'm saying there was a a a real connection and that's all I can really

01:59:09 connection and that's all I can really say are you saying you gave no thought at all to the question of whether she would have consented to you if she'd known who you really were no if I was second guessing that I'd be thinking would these people be my friends would I do this would I do that in fact I'd be going crazy if I was

01:59:25 in fact I'd be going crazy if I was doing that I wouldn't be able to perform the role what you did was completely wrong wasn't it in the call light of day it can be seen as completely wrong when you're in

01:59:36 seen as completely wrong when you're in that role and in that task and you're in that

01:59:38 that circumstance and you have got nothing that's protecting you in any way shape or means then it's a

01:59:49 way shape or means then it's a completely different kettle of fish you know you would have to be in that scenario to know what the circumstance was you'd have to be me in that scenario because everybody's treated differently do you want the record to

02:00:06 differently do you want the record to show that in answer to my question you equivocated or that you are accepting that it was completely wrong I'm not accepting that it's completely wrong what I'm saying is I can only go with the circumstance I was in at the

02:00:22 time so would this be a conveni ient time to give the stenographer a

02:00:30 break would you like a break now yes thank

02:00:31 thank you certainly we'll we'll break for 15 minutes to enable the uh stenographer to have a

02:00:50 break

02:17:49 e e

02:18:48 the

02:19:00 Mr Morris why did you

02:19:06 you participate in forming an emotional bond and then a sexual relationship with be

02:19:30 that is a difficult question um and I think I kind of said it on my um is it rule nine

02:19:32 rule nine statement

02:19:49 um

02:45:47 e e

02:46:34 there must be no disclosure or publication made of uh anything stated in the hearing between 1203 and

02:46:46 1204 Mr B thank you sir Mr Morris um the distress that you cause be when you disappear appeared uh the fact you had affected her emotions in that way did

02:46:59 affected her emotions in that way did not stop you from continuing with the relationship no but you clearly it was emotional um in

02:47:10 um in general did you not give any thought at that time to the impact you were having on her emotions

02:47:27 I guess as much as the impact it was having on mine

02:47:34 um again you're asking me to put myself into to

02:47:36 into to a

02:47:42 a circumstance that I can now really not do

02:47:48 um frankly it's impossible to perform to move for me to put myself in that circumstance because it's not been there for the last 30 years and um you'd have to live that life to

02:47:59 and um you'd have to live that life to know it and I don't live it any longer and have basically tried to forget what it was like so I no I don't know what I thought there came a time when the

02:48:11 thought there came a time when the intensity of the relationship shifted down a

02:48:19 gear yeah I guess so yeah yeah um after approximately 6 months I I don't know the timings she she said she knew the timings better that's great and essentially that was because you were

02:48:32 essentially that was because you were not committed to becoming more involved with her children helping out and so forth

02:48:35 forth um I don't know if that was ever articulated to me but I'm aware that's what she said is that what happened I don't know that's what I said I don't

02:48:46 don't know that's what I said I don't know if that was ever articulated to me but I'm aware that's what she said what I meant was you weren't becoming more involved with her children you weren't no I didn't want to be involved with her children at all you weren't taking the relationship to the next

02:48:58 taking the relationship to the next stage I think I made that clear from the beginning that the relationship wouldn't go to the next stage she was simply putting her children

02:49:13 first at that stage I'm again that's well you you did ask her so she can answer that better than I can I can't really answer that you you still went over to her home once a week or again I I don't know whether those figures are

02:49:29 I don't know whether those figures are correct but they might be and again she she tells you that you're not denying that you did continue oh we saw each other we you know we still liked each other but I don't think it I don't think it's that frequency to be fair but if she says that's what the case is I'm not going to go against that and the

02:49:43 going to go against that and the relationship peted out Al together after about a year just over my recollection is is that she

02:49:55 she um basically found somebody that would provide her with with what she required could we now have up please 28169 which is tab c76

02:50:21 sir and if we expand that thank you this again filed as one of your reports dated the 14th of July 1992 it's a report on an

02:50:38 1992 it's a report on an individual a woman who is a member of the Socialist Workers Party who associated with B that's

02:50:47 right

03:14:46 e e

03:15:45 there must be no disclosure or publication made of anything said in the hearing room between 12:30 8 and

03:15:53 1242 Mr V thank you sir could we have up please

03:15:55 please 3576 at

03:16:15 page9 paragraph This is your witness statement Mr Morris parag paragraph o thank you my present attitude to the relationship with b and the sexual encounter with the other woman is that

03:16:27 encounter with the other woman is that they happened I regret them because it would be better for everyone if they had not happened but at the time they

03:16:38 not happened but at the time they happened I was for all intents and purposes my alter ego and not h78 so I lived this Ultra Deep Cover I was in a situation that probably caused me not to think about the

03:16:56 me not to think about the consequences Mr Morris you have since making that statement in 2022 heard be's oral evidence what is your attitude

03:17:19 now I think I said I'd rather that it never happened and I think I said that I regret that it caused them any problems I think that I made that pretty much clear today um however as I said and I think I've continued saying living that

03:17:31 living that life that is what occurred in that circumstance for a pleate of reasons which maybe incorrectly but I've tried to

03:17:47 incorrectly but I've tried to explain and I think you need need to live that

03:17:52 live that life to understand how that life plays on

03:17:53 on you when you're under when you're performing those type of operations and so what I'd like to add is that clearly if that was something

03:18:06 is that clearly if that was something that these operations should not have taken place just that simple if you if you're going to turn around and say we don't want that sort of thing to to happen such operations should not have

03:18:25 happen such operations should not have taken place M Mr Morris you used be you deceived be and you violated the most intimate aspects of her life I think I've explained to you and Mr Morris I think I've explained to you Mr bar and I think Mr moris finish the question okay

03:18:36 think Mr moris finish the question okay are you sorry I think I've explained to you Mr bar and I think you've heard what I've said I didn't use her at the time it was real and our relationship was

03:18:48 it was real and our relationship was real and at the time I don't know how

03:18:58 real and at the time I don't know how what weight we're giving to each aspect of what I've explained earli on so I'm not going to go through it again that that's what the circumstance was the fact that you're saying I've used her is incorrect I've said that I'm sorry it happened I understand her pain and

03:19:17 happened I understand her pain and hopefully she can understand that she was not just some as you seem to be trying to say some tool that I utilize that's not the case and I've explained that to you Mr Morris can we move now to Jenny

03:19:34 you Mr Morris can we move now to Jenny yeah you've heard Jenny's evidence yeah is there any part of Jenny's evidence with which you disagree yeah there's a couple of bits I disagree I can't remember exactly what she said but the

03:19:50 remember exactly what she said but the the there are a few bits that I'm not uh 100% happy with or were when I listened to it now can't remember exactly what what would said fully but the reality is is that

03:20:01 um frankly

03:20:09 frankly again it's the context of the time the place and what happened it got me nowhere and wouldn't have got me anywhere that was it what I was I was thinking as I was speaking yeah there was nothing in the relationship I had with Jenny prior to

03:20:20 relationship I had with Jenny prior to what took place that had anything to do

03:20:31 what took place that had anything to do with getting to know her for any reason because she had nothing that she could provide me in terms of Intel etc etc and of course it there were totally utterly real

03:20:42 real circumstances that um the interaction that we had was real this was done for sexual gratification wasn't it what you talking about the actual one night you mean they we back

03:21:03 together I think we she and I hit it off and it would have been better that never happened at all

03:21:16 um when something happens with a man or a woman I don't know what you call it if you want to call you you seem to put it in a in a vein that doesn't sit right with me

03:21:23 you have heard the impact that your actions had on Jenny MH as I did with B MH I'm going to give you the opportunity to update what you said in your witness statement about

03:21:35 said in your witness statement about your attitude to this you've said it a little bit about I've said it very clear I've said very C are you sorry that I've said very clear that that I wish it hadn't happened and I'm sorry that it

03:21:47 hadn't happened and I'm sorry that it did happen I've not I don't think I've not articulated

03:21:54 that uh could we have up 52776

03:22:09 please

03:22:18 uh and we have page nine this is

03:22:28 the this is a document created by Bob Lambert okay 31st of August 1995 MH says hn 78 was quite emotional

03:22:42 1995 MH says hn 78 was quite emotional after a busy final week in which genuine and long-standing friendship had to be severed it is difficult to think of any other officer who has maintained the same level of enthusiasm and commitment throughout a 4-year period his constant

03:22:56 throughout a 4-year period his constant Good Humor will be sorely missed on the team he is due to commence work at he airport on Monday the 6th of November 1995 did you tell Bob Lambert

03:23:11 1995 did you tell Bob Lambert orally uh about what you had done with Jenny no

03:23:17 I have um a copy of the

03:23:29 commissioner's opening statement on the question of sexual relationships if this could be handed to the witness

03:23:50 please I'm going to read paragraph 24 on page8 the MPS accepts that these sexual relationships occurred and that further relationships will be examined during

03:24:02 relationships will be examined during the inquiry's later investigations of T2 T3 and T4 such conduct was a gross violation of the women's privacy and human rights it was abusive deceitful manipulative and wrong the MPS

03:24:15 manipulative and wrong the MPS apologizes again unreservedly to the women whose lives have been and continue to be affected the MPS also apologizes to the wives partners and families who

03:24:28 to the wives partners and families who have also been harmed by the misconduct of the uos and the failure by the SDS as managers and Senior mpsb Management to prevent that

03:24:40 prevent that misconduct do you agree with that apology uh not not all it look it's very easy for the commissioner to say something that he's not been involved in

03:24:53 something that he's not been involved in and don't understand how people feel who are involved in that he talks about the fact that it's um the circumstance for The NPS also apologizes to the wives and partners and families who have also been harmed by the misconduct well they

03:25:05 harmed by the misconduct well they weren't harmed by the misconduct what

03:25:14 weren't harmed by the misconduct what they've been harmed by is by putting the individuals into organizations for four or five years as different people who live that life who then don't have anything to do with their families and indeed find it more dangerous to be with their family than it is to be with the

03:25:25 their family than it is to be with the individuals where they are you know here a prime minister talking about practically doing the same thing to try and deal with the issue we've got happening right now in sou in sou poet so you see this is easy for people to

03:25:39 so you see this is easy for people to say who do not perform this role what it is like for those who do perform it now yesterday I read something which I wrote at the time time I had forgotten what I

03:25:51 at the time time I had forgotten what I wrote at the time and I then saw it and the power that came out of that was my feelings of at the time so when Bob says that yes I was very unhappy to leave I was leaving people whom I in many ways

03:26:04 was leaving people whom I in many ways respected particular the ones who were not

03:26:06 not purposefully causing distress and causing um fizzers in the Society of the United Kingdom but were actually good people thinking about trying to Aid and do better for the United Kingdom those

03:26:18 do better for the United Kingdom those people I had no problem with but what I had the problem with the individuals who at the top of that organization which I was part of and all the other organizations umbrella organizations

03:26:30 organizations umbrella organizations that that that failed off that that they were utilizing every issue every opportunity they could to cause problems I cited to my team which I think have passed it to you a world in Action Program if you watch that program played

03:26:43 Program if you watch that program played at the time you'll see that every member of the Dead families who were involved said these people are utilizing our pain for their own ends and by that they mean the swp so what I'm saying to you is

03:26:59 the swp so what I'm saying to you is that I was involved in an organization I saw good people in that organization I took on the mantle of those people in that organization I was for all intents and purposes bought to it within weeks

03:27:11 and purposes bought to it within weeks of being involved because you know the truth of the matter is I was left wi anyway right but the point is is this and I think this is what is important that within those organizations when you change your mentality to those

03:27:26 change your mentality to those organizations you will pay a price for that and that price is mental illness which most of us who perform the job in depth have suffered film for the last whatever years since they left the

03:27:38 whatever years since they left the organization and that is what I have to say it it is in fact for me in many ways relatively unacceptable that the commission just off his tongue just says that as though it means nothing to him

03:27:51 that as though it means nothing to him was he in that role did he ever do that job no he didn't did he know what it was like not seeing your family grow up no he didn't it's

03:28:07 outrageous sir would that be a an appropriate moment to yes it would um would um Everybody mind if we had a slightly shorter lunch break than usual and resumed at 5 2 for