Session begins with Marvel Lewis's devastating statement about the theft of her deceased 7-year-old brother Anthony Lewis's identity by HN78 Trevor Morris. Anthony died of sickle cell anemia in 1968, and his identity was used to infiltrate anti-racist groups while HN78 engaged in sexual relationships. HN78 then testifies about joining SDS, cover identity selection using the 'Jackal technique', his wife's concerns, and being told by psychiatrist Dr Gibling that he was 'damaged' and should 'just forget' his deployment. Afternoon session covers extensive testimony about ANL relaunch, SWP structure, key figures Julie Waterson, Chris Bambury and Lindsey German, Marxism conferences, and trade union infiltration.
00:43:26 e e
00:44:02 good afternoon and welcome to what I believe is the 13th day of our hearings in this part of the inquiry uh with apologies to those who've heard all this before those with mobile devices at the in the public Gallery may use them uh to uh transmit what you hear in the hearing
00:44:18 uh transmit what you hear in the hearing room uh but only 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that you're describing that's to fit in with the YouTube stream which is subject to a 10-minute delay you may not use the
00:44:36 you may not use the uh devices for the purpose of uh recording proceedings or taking photographs
00:44:46 um I want to say one further thing today if I may we are going to hear once the evidence of Marvel Lewis has been summarized from a witness who is going to give evidence uh this afternoon tomorrow and Friday whose evidence
00:44:57 tomorrow and Friday whose evidence evidence may be controversial may I ask please that those in the public gallery show the same restraint and calmness with which they have heard all evidence up to now thank
00:45:09 up to now thank you
00:45:22 yes sir Marvel Lewis is the sister of Anthony Lewis a deceased child who whose identity Trevor Morris adopted she has provided the inquiry with a powerful witness statement and three exhibits which will be published in full on the inquiry's website and this is a brief summary of their
00:45:35 summary of their contents Miss Lewis's witness statement has the endorsement of another of Anthony Lewis's surviving sisters Judy Lewis who is also a core participant her witness statement
00:45:48 participant her witness statement describes that her parents and another sister found it too painful to engage with the inquiry and alongside Miss Lewis hope that her statement may lead to some answers and gain accountability for The Wider family Anthony was the first child of his
00:46:00 Anthony was the first child of his parents HTH and Clinton Lewis and the only boy he is remembered as a lovely happy child who suffered from sickle
00:46:11 happy child who suffered from sickle cell anemia which makes the sufferer susceptible to infections and which causes Sickle Cell crisis episodes of extreme pain Miss Lewis sets out that
00:46:25 extreme pain Miss Lewis sets out that Anthony in common with the family was of black British afro Caribbean Heritage and lived in Birmingham where he was born Miss Lewis recalls that Anthony was very determined throughout his life with the disease and would say that when he
00:46:38 the disease and would say that when he grew up he wanted to be a doctor Anthony died when he was 7 years old from his illness and its Associated complications on the 31st of July
00:46:51 on the 31st of July 1968 Miss Lewis States Anthony's death deeply affected her parents and continues to do so for Miss Lewis herself she works as a nurse
00:47:05 nurse but finds it too distressing to look after sick children and she wonders whether this was the result of the impact of her brother's death and illness tragically the family experienced the loss of another of Miss Lewis's sister from the same disease in
00:47:22 1997 in June 2019 one of Miss Lewis's sisters was contacted by the inquiry who informed her that h78 Trevor Morris had used Anthony's name and date of birth during his deployment between 19 1991 and
00:47:29 and 1995 they were informed that he infiltrated the Socialist Workers Party
00:47:41 infiltrated the Socialist Workers Party and the anti-nazi league and had engaged in sexual activity whilst in Anthony's identity with b and Jenny who the inquiry heard evidence from on Monday Miss Lewis and her family believe that Anthony's race was identified during the selection of his identity and
00:47:55 during the selection of his identity and the fact motivated the allocation of his name for use by a black SDS officer deployed to infiltrate anti-racist groups although Anthony's race was not forly recorded on his birth or death certificates and Miss Lewis notes the
00:48:09 certificates and Miss Lewis notes the family's surname is racially ambiguous his death certificate records sickle cell anemia as a cause of death the predominance of CLE cell anemia amongst black people of African or Caribbean Heritage leads the family to believe that it was
00:48:20 that it was identifying the effect of CLE cell anemia on the Lewis family makes the possibility the condition might have been a factor in the selection of
00:48:31 been a factor in the selection of Anthony's identity quote a horror that is difficult to put into words end quot Miss Lewis describes the reaction of Trevor Morris's use of Anthony's
00:48:43 of Trevor Morris's use of Anthony's identity as quote confusion and distress end quote and she raises several specific questions about the selection of Anthony's identity the first is whether Trevor Morris was aware of Anthony's ethnicity
00:48:55 Morris was aware of Anthony's ethnicity and whether it was a factor in selecting his identity secondly whether he was aware of the cause of Anthony's death thirdly whether the SDS sent copies of possible identities for officers to
00:49:06 possible identities for officers to choose from and whether these possible identities were in fact all of black children and Miss Lewis also notes that Trevor Morris told be that his family had originally come from Jamaica her
00:49:17 had originally come from Jamaica her parents had both been born in Jamaica raising the question of whether Trevor Morris carried out other Research into the family's records Miss L describes how she
00:49:30 records Miss L describes how she believes her brother was dehumanized by the use of his identity as if it was something to be played with and used she described how the experience has left her feeling sick and with an overwhelming sense of Injustice she
00:49:44 overwhelming sense of Injustice she believes this reaction was worsened by Trevor Morris's infiltration into left-wing groups and Justice campaigns which she considered had a political
00:49:58 which she considered had a political goal in particular she believes that the police response to the SW and anti-nazi League attempts to confront racism and the far right was to put a police spy in their midst to undermine them commenting on the home office authorization of the SDS Miss Lewis feels as if no
00:50:11 SDS Miss Lewis feels as if no organization acted with Integrity or thought of the impact of the practice of using deceased child's identities she recalls her parents
00:50:22 identities she recalls her parents saying that the discovery that Anthony's identity had been used quote felt that all the pain relating to Anthony's death and illness were brought up again end quote her parents who pre had previously
00:50:33 quote her parents who pre had previously had faith in public bodies including the role of the police to protect the public had been disgusted by the use of Anthony's name in targeting left-wing anti-racist groups they had likened it
00:50:44 anti-racist groups they had likened it to fraud Miss Lewis States their trusts in the police had been badly damaged by the Revelation and she states that had the equivalent happened within the NHS
00:51:00 the equivalent happened within the NHS where she works it it would be condemned as an immoral and illegal act of identity
00:51:01 identity theft her statement also describes the consequences and potential consequences of using Anthony's identity on her and her
00:51:10 her family the Lewis family have seen a 2019 Guardian article exhibited by Miss Lewis as exhibit ml1 where Trevor Morris was identified only as h78 and Anthony
00:51:23 h78 and Anthony Lewis which described the Ellison
00:51:32 Lewis which described the Ellison report's conclusions of reporting on the Lawrence Family Miss Lewis states that the public would have Associated her brother's name with Trevor Morris's actions Miss Lewis notes it makes her quote sick to read this and see my brother's name end quote the impact is intensified because she believes her
00:51:46 intensified because she believes her brother would have wanted Justice for the Lawrence Family Trevor Morris's use of seven-year-old Anthony Lewis's identity whilst engaging in sexual activity is something which she comments is quote
00:52:00 something which she comments is quote disgusting end quote likewise the family are concerned about what might have happened had the sexual activity ended in pregnancy when the child would have believed that Anthony Lewis was the father Miss Lewis notes from h78
00:52:12 father Miss Lewis notes from h78 statement that during the sexual encounters he was living in Ultra Deep Cover and for all intents and purposes was his alter ego not hn 78 Miss Lewis finds the suggestion that using her
00:52:26 finds the suggestion that using her brother's identity would make Trevor Morris less culpable for the relationships insulting to her brother's memory Miss Lewis suggests that checks on the authenticity of the adopted
00:52:41 on the authenticity of the adopted identities could have led to the family of an activist being tracked down from information included on the birth certificate in common with many such documents Anthony's birth certificate includes the names of family members their professions and addresses there was a risk to the family's safety from
00:52:53 was a risk to the family's safety from activists in the BNP who were opposed to H 78s group in addition to the risk that somebody from one of his own groups would have turned up asking for Anthony she notes that hn 78 is
00:53:06 Anthony she notes that hn 78 is uncertain in his witness statement about whether he lost and replaced his driving license during his deployment which meant that there could have been a second individual using Anthony's identity for a purpose unknown to the
00:53:23 identity for a purpose unknown to the family Miss Lewis notes that both be and Jenny the women at Trevor Morris had engaged in sexual activity with have both described previous experiences of domestic violence and quotes be's
00:53:34 domestic violence and quotes be's statement that Trevor Morris was aware and possibly exploited this vulnerability Miss Lewis states that the suggestion quote aggravates our horror
00:53:47 suggestion quote aggravates our horror end quote she wants to make it known to the women that Anthony Lewis would not have grown up to do something like that the Metropolitan police's apology for using the identities of deceased children is described as a quote quote insult End quot by Miss Lewis who
00:54:00 insult End quot by Miss Lewis who questions its sincerity and States apologies are used in place of proper accountability by the police quoting Trevor Morris's statement
00:54:13 police quoting Trevor Morris's statement that suggests no consideration was given at any stage to the risks brought upon the family of deceased children and their use was never intended to become public knowledge she states that these explanations are not an excuse for their conduct Miss Lewis states that her
00:54:28 conduct Miss Lewis states that her family want truth accountability and justice for what happened Miss Lewis also describes the family's feeling that Trevor Morris's infiltration of anti-racist movements and Justice campaigns made the family's personal safety as black people less
00:54:45 personal safety as black people less secure and notes quote I wish to state that it is difficult to see how hn 78 Trevor Morris's deployment could have done anything but undermine the rights the fights for racial Justice equality
00:55:04 the fights for racial Justice equality and the safety of black people end quote she cites the allegation of racism made in hn 78 statement against hn 86 and Trevor Morris's attendance at the Welling demonstration against the bnp's South London Bookshop to conclude quote it is hard to get my head around the fact that in my brother's name a black
00:55:18 fact that in my brother's name a black undercover police officer was spying on an anti-racist group resulting in the protection of a racist group under the supervision of a racist officer in a unit contaminated ated with racism end quote Miss Lewis puts forward
00:55:30 quote Miss Lewis puts forward allegations that h78 spied on the Lawrence family's campaign for Justice as a further example of tror Morris's
00:55:42 as a further example of tror Morris's use of Anthony's identity being used to exacerbate the risk to black people's personal safety she also notes the Ellison's reviews conclusion that hn 78 did pick up intelligence about the
00:55:55 did pick up intelligence about the Lawrence Family through indirect means and that the information he reported might well have contained personal information she also notes the concern that records about the Lawrence campaign may have been destroyed by the Metropolitan Police Miss Lewis feels sad and
00:56:10 Police Miss Lewis feels sad and frustrated that the 2023 review of The Metropolitan police's culture shows issues of institutional and individual abuse continue to exist and allow officers like hn 778 to continue to behave like they did and the
00:56:22 behave like they did and the Metropolitan Police can continue to ignore racist and misog IC cultures fostered within them she hopes that the inquiry will lead to change and hold the system and individuals to
00:56:37 system and individuals to account so that concludes the summary of Marvel Lewis's evidence thank
00:56:57 you I do soly I do soly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare andir declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the
00:57:12 TR Mr B thank you sir uh Mr Morris could you tell us your full name please Trevor mois uh you prepared a witness statement for the inquiry dated the 21st of April 2022 are the contents of that witness
00:57:24 2022 are the contents of that witness statement true and correct cor to the best of your knowledge and belief yes to the best of my knowledge and belief uh can I start um before you
00:57:46 belief uh can I start um before you joined the SDS when you were a member of cquad um did you have any contact with SDS Personnel no names please uh do you mean people serving on the SDS at the time no uh
00:57:57 no uh did you
00:58:03 did you um use intelligence that had come from the
00:58:08 the SDS uh most likely yes did you know at the time it had come from the
00:58:16 SDS um no did you know it had come from undercover police officers I knew it was from a secret and delicate source which meant potenti an
00:58:33 agent were you aware of the existence of the
00:58:34 the SDS originally no were you aware of a unit called the har
00:58:43 is it's more 30 years ago
00:58:48 um I don't think I
00:58:57 was you are then approached by the SDS and you join yeah that was on esquad uh you have a meeting during the
00:59:08 esquad uh you have a meeting during the course of your induction into the SDS at which you and your wife are present together with the office as we know as hn 67 and hn 86
00:59:35 yeah I think so yeah can you recall what was covered in that
00:59:37 that meeting um not
00:59:45 really uh was there any discussion of the fact that you would have to live undercover absolutely yeah uh and was there any discussion of the fact that you would have to do so pretending to be a single man
01:00:05 yeah and that you will be mixing with uh people mixing with mixed company absolutely
01:00:16 absolutely yeah was there any mention of any sexual issues no arising from pretending to be a single man in mixed company I don't think that was stressed at all did your wife raise any concerns with you about that I don't think that was even
01:00:33 that I don't think that was even mentioned in the meeting so far as with my wife did she mention concerns with you outside the meeting she didn't want me to actually undertake the role why
01:00:43 role why not because she felt that the role was one that was uh that would take a lot of
01:00:57 one that was uh that would take a lot of time an in audate amount in time in fact that that's as it was explained to us did she raise any concerns about you pretending to be a single man in mixed company I'm not even sure that it was
01:01:10 company I'm not even sure that it was breached as being a single man in mixed company it wasn't basically we're talking about going into a um revolutionary socialist organization that was
01:01:26 it so did you persuade your wife that you should take the take the role
01:01:38 yes uh can I move to your preparation for deployment did you understand that you were Bound by the code of discipline whilst acting as an undercover police
01:02:00 officer I don't think that was ever broached if it wasn't specifically broached with you the normal position for a police officer is that you are subject to the code of discipline aren't
01:02:23 you I say yes however I was engaged in a special Branch intelligence only operation and throughout my special Branch career up to then which had been about four or five
01:02:36 five years um there were aspects which you would say one should that things could have been done in no not done in different ways that
01:02:47 in no not done in different ways that that you know you would report things and no action was taken can can I stick to undercover policing did you add
01:03:02 to undercover policing did you add address your mind to whether or not you will be subject to the code of conduct whilst you are acting undercover I I'm I'm struggling to find what you mean by the code of
01:03:16 what you mean by the code of conduct well let's um we can go in the file to file b23 sir 730 593
01:03:36 this is a document entitled code of conduct for special Branch officers it in fact originates from 1993 and so this postdates your Beginnings with the SDS yeah but at
01:03:49 Beginnings with the SDS yeah but at paragraph one it states a police officer employed in an undercover role by special Branch remains Bound by all the law laws rules regulations governing the conduct of police officers in general a
01:04:11 conduct of police officers in general a police officer employed in an undercover role by special Branch remains Bound by the discipline code and statement of common purpose and values whilst no General exemption is granted to officers it is recognize that behavior enroll will of necessity reflect the
01:04:31 will of necessity reflect the requirements of an operation even then conduct must be consistent with the spirit of the regulations and the fundamental aims of the
01:04:42 fundamental aims of the service I hadn't seen that before um and yes the spirit I'm guessing of the service in terms of policing absolutely um and I'm guessing that the spirit is the thing that one worked to yeah well my question was my my two
01:04:54 yeah well my question was my my two questions were first of all did any
01:05:05 questions were first of all did any anybody rais this with you no not at all and uh secondly did you address your mind to it not not overtly really no um and now again in that same period do you recall
01:05:21 again in that same period do you recall any written material whether in a binder or in plastic um wallets or however informal it might have been do you
01:05:33 informal it might have been do you recall any written guidance left by your predecessor offices to assist you to do your
01:05:43 job my recollection is frankly quite hazy
01:05:45 hazy um when I
01:05:50 um when I left the SDS and went back to other special Branch
01:06:00 duties rightly or wrongly um I was sent to see a psychiatrist and and rightly or wrongly I said that all I'm going to do is forget everything to do with that she had said to me you may
01:06:13 do with that she had said to me you may have this I can't remember what her name was she had said to me that um you're damaged and I don't want to open you up um what she meant I don't know by that and if you can deal with it by just forgetting it forget it so I'm just going to say it ahead of time my
01:06:25 going to say it ahead of time my Recollections on quite a few things are hazy especially on times dates etc etc I do not recollect seeing this binder it
01:06:36 do not recollect seeing this binder it may have been there not going to argue that it wasn't but I don't recollect it um is it Dr gibling you were talking ah yes that's it gibling and on the
01:06:47 ah yes that's it gibling and on the question of your memory you have set out right at the very start of your witness statement that you feel that you do have some difficulties with your memory it is a very long time ago but could you help me with
01:07:01 me with this are we talking about the general problems that anybody would have recalling events 30 years ago or do your problems with recalling things go beyond that beyond
01:07:18 that beyond that why I don't know and I've been to the doctor's why and I put in a claim with the Metropolitan Police at one stage and they said that the timings were out out of time as though they called it uh you may have seen that somewhere
01:07:37 um I I'm affected by it's that simple and again it may help to clear this up right at the the outset of your evidence how does that affect you does it affect you in specific ways well I'm very poor with
01:07:49 very poor with names um
01:07:57 and concepts of time sometime which I explain to my defense team are sometimes
01:08:09 problematic okay uh can we go now to the time when you were spending or you were visiting the safe house before you
01:08:21 house before you deployed and you had contact with uos who were
01:08:22 who were already uh deployed yeah you had opportunity to talk to them didn't you about how to do the job um can you
01:08:33 job um can you recall how much exposure you got to
01:08:45 them again in my recollection not much
01:09:03 um did had more time speaking to individuals who were going in who were in the swp example than with others I would
01:09:04 would say did you feel you got enough time with the undercover officers to know what you were doing when you were deployed or did you feel
01:09:20 underprepared I can only say underprepared not because of the role of the organization under prepar you but because you can't prepare for the task
01:09:29 did you talk to the undercover officers about various aspects of fieldcraft yeah that would have come up I can't remember but it would have no
01:09:40 I can't remember but it would have no doubt would have come up yes they would given you advice about building your Legend and things like that one thing St stands out to me um I can't remember who the individual was
01:09:53 can't remember who the individual was um I think it was a he could have been a she said um you know you'll need it might have been a she actually you'll need to know you know your local pub etc etc and I said
01:10:08 know your local pub etc etc and I said well I don't really drink so that's not something that I would really do so I don't think I will be doing that and
01:10:21 don't think I will be doing that and it's that's how individualistic the role is did you talk to any of them about living in a mixed environment as a single man
01:10:27 it probably came up
01:10:33 up that it didn't come up in that way as a mixed environment it just came up as um you know speak ofp the comrades the all you know men women
01:10:46 all you know men women whatever I don't think we even came to that Mind of a mixed environment did the question of sexual advances um come up no that came later did
01:11:05 did the was there any talk about any form of sexual activity undercover at all no not that I recollect did anybody tell you about the case of Richard Clark
01:11:24 no at that stage ah sorry to be precise just come into I heard that Rick Clark who I didn't actually know rephrase I
01:11:36 who I didn't actually know rephrase I knew of him but I didn't know him cuz he was a I think he was an inspector a DI um I heard that he had been shown his death certificate I don't know why
01:11:53 his death certificate I don't know why don't know what the consequence was and that he'd escaped and yeah and that there was a unit within the swp that
01:11:57 swp that made sure that people were whom they said they
01:12:12 were did anybody give you to understand there had been difficulties in the past because undercover police officers had become involved with members of the opposite sex
01:12:25 sexually you then have to build your undercover identity you tell us that you already had a DJ name Bobby McGee and you wanted to use that name correct um
01:12:39 you wanted to use that name correct um but you were told that you had to use a deceased child's identity instead is that correct yeah not in those words you had I think I think the way it came to me is that that wouldn't be sufficient
01:12:51 me is that that wouldn't be sufficient because there's many people in the Civil Service and they can check who you are so you need to build the uh you I think I think they probably said something like you need to use a jackal system
01:13:06 like you need to use a jackal system which obviously I was familiar with as a special Branch officer because that was used by practically every
01:13:11 every um uh intelligence officer or many other individuals who wanted a new identity it was wellknown
01:13:24 new identity it was wellknown system you may need to look at the uh Cipher to make sure that if if the officer has a cipher it is used rather
01:13:36 officer has a cipher it is used rather than the name can you recall who it was who instructed you that you would need to use the Jackal method I believe it was either
01:13:46 either hn
01:13:49 hn 67
01:13:53 or h
01:14:04 1086 was the fact that you were already comfortable with the name Bobby McGee the only reason that you wanted to use that name rather than a deceased child's Identity or were there other
01:14:16 Identity or were there other reasons I never used Bob M I just used Bobby um I I I guess it was I was happy either with that name no problem with it so I was happy to go along with
01:14:32 so I was happy to go along with it did you have any quals about using a deceased child's identity at that time at that time that was a regular practice in all
01:14:38 in all services that doesn't quite I I'm assuming you mean no you didn't but can I just just be clear did you or didn't
01:14:50 I just just be clear did you or didn't toar quarms to be clear that was the way it was done within the services that carried out the type of work in in in the national security field did you and I just followed the
01:15:10 system um we've heard evidence uh that officers would often go through the registers to find an
01:15:15 find an appropriate child uh who fitted the parameters of the system did you do that I'm assuming I
01:15:29 system did you do that I'm assuming I did I I don't really recall it but I'm assuming I did could we have up please
01:15:52 37081 uh this is the birth certificate for Anthony Fitzgerald
01:15:59 Lewis um and this is the birth certificate of the child whose uh name you
01:16:10 adopted is that right um I'm guessing it is
01:16:22 correct Anthony was born in lordswood Birmingham mhm your cover identity did not involve having been born in Birmingham did it
01:16:33 having been born in Birmingham did it absolutely not I mean I I didn't need this that was my perspective but then obviously I and again I don't want to be over precise because I cannot fully
01:16:52 over precise because I cannot fully remember and I'm maybe pushing back um I was happy with what I had I didn't want to be born in the United Kingdom at all um I was happy to be born at were um I think they said they'd make some type of um investigation to see if that was
01:17:04 that was possible um and then I never heard anything more about it and was told to look at a different system um recently I heard that they obviously went to the security service to ask if they could speak to the
01:17:15 to ask if they could speak to the Germans I don't know why they did that because we had a very good leaone with the Germans so we could have done it special branch that is I think we can if we just stick to so this do for this document I'm guessing that is the
01:17:26 document I'm guessing that is the document and I don't think I used anything from that other than the name did you use the date of birth uh let me have a look at the date of
01:17:42 birth yeah the date of birth data birth and the name that's what I would have used when you were deployed did you say to people that you had a connection with oldum yes I think it was oldum yeah
01:17:59 did you use the full name Anthony Fitzgerald Lewis at least for formal
01:18:20 purposes I don't I can't I can't say it I know I use anony Lewis that's what I would have used for formal but I'm not sure if I'm I use the middle however
01:18:33 middle however the and this might go into the red area so well yeah please don't um can I put it this way was the and just please answer this question precisely was the name Anthony Fitzgerald Lewis on your cover driving
01:18:52 license ye um I believe so could we take the document down now please and could we have 37082 up please
01:19:10 um this is Antony's death certificate um we can see in the middle box the left hand column that Anthony sadly passed away on the 31st of
01:19:26 away on the 31st of July uh 19 1968 at the Children's Hospital edgebaston that would have made him 7 years old when he
01:19:38 died was a child who had died at the age of seven regarded as old enough to make was
01:19:54 seven regarded as old enough to make was not ideal can I just finish the question old enough to make detection difficult because you would have to look at a lot of death certificates yeah that wouldn't have been
01:20:12 ideal would it also have been in an age where he was unlikely to have left M much of a footprint in his real life in terms of uh things like a passport
01:20:33 passport Etc was no problem for the organization and we go to the red area yeah can I what I would that would have a problem what I'm interested in perhaps I can come at it another way were you given any
01:20:45 given any guidance as to the sort of age bracket you should be looking at right that's a better question
01:20:59 better question I cannot recall being given any guidance but I don't think that would have been ideal because it's quite young and from my other special Branch work on cquad on
01:21:14 my other special Branch work on cquad on esquad on P Squad um if you were looking at individuals take to account the records weren't um computerized if you were looking at individuals um that would have been very young so easier much easier to
01:21:34 detect to detect somebody you literally have to go through the register of death both sides
01:21:40 yeah can we now look at the cause of death please which is near the
01:21:49 middle thank you cerebral inunction intravascular I'm struggling to read what it says next CLE cell anemia ulcerative colitis
01:22:04 CLE cell anemia ulcerative colitis colomy certified by and then we have the certifier
01:22:08 certifier name uh I understand from your witness statement you'd been given some advice to avoid a child who might have died in a memorable incident is
01:22:22 have died in a memorable incident is that right uh this is a cause of death that would meet that test is isn't it
01:22:36 that would meet that test is isn't it mhm also to right isn't it that Sickle Cell Anemia means that Anthony was almost certainly black some Mediterranean people as well but
01:22:49 yeah did you a light upon
01:22:52 upon Anthony because he had died of sickle cell anemia no no not at
01:23:11 all wouldn't it have been important to you as a black man to adopt the identity of a black child as I said I didn't require that I wanted the identity that I had that I
01:23:24 wanted the identity that I had that I was comfortable with that I was easy to control
01:23:28 control and frankly I did not want to be born in the United
01:23:36 Kingdom you had no choice yeah because of the instructions you were given yeah that was pushed upon me and so is it right that you chose
01:23:48 right that you chose Anthony as an identity which would be difficult to undermine and had the advantage that like you he was black I
01:23:59 like you he was black I would I suggest that there could have been several of a possibly better individuals that I could have looked up I I'm struggling to see how I came across that
01:24:21 name it would be a considerable coincidence wouldn't it in 1991 for a black man by chance to pick the birth certificate of a black child wouldn't
01:24:40 certificate of a black child wouldn't it not necessarily but I I understand where you going from but not necessarily are you saying that you did not choose Anthony for this reason or are you saying you can't remember I
01:24:54 are you saying you can't remember I can't remember that's that's Bas what I'm
01:25:04 saying very important that you answer this question just with a yes or a no were you given any details of memorable incidents having been chosen by any other undercover police
01:25:22 officers I mean the way in which the child had died all right oh okay um no
01:25:27 um no not again not that I can remember no and if I've understood your witness statement correctly at the time that you chose Antony's
01:25:38 chose Antony's identity you gave no thought to Antony's family at that stage correct once that was given to me as an identity for whatever reason
01:25:53 as an identity for whatever reason I rephrase this was again an operation that was supposedly never to see the light of day it was a top secret operation government classification thereof and I say all your documents are all crossed out and redacted as top secret and so therefore it was never a
01:26:07 secret and so therefore it was never a thought that anybody would understand or hear what identity was utilize um would you accept that a belief that nobody will ever find out
01:26:20 belief that nobody will ever find out does not justify doing something if it is
01:26:23 is wrong that's the this is the point I'm making in the system we utilized it wasn't perceived as wrong and every other agency utilized that same
01:26:34 other agency utilized that same system uh would I also be right to suppose that no plans were made to contact the family in the event that your
01:26:43 that your identity as Anthony Lewis was compromised that would have been the office I don't know about what the office would have done I doubt I doubt it but that would be the office
01:26:59 um you've heard my learned friend summarize Marva Lewis's witness statement and you will have heard the concern that the family have that the far
01:27:13 that the far right might have sought to trace them based on the identity that you were using do you agree that that was a
01:27:27 risk as I use that name very infrequently I would have thought they would have gone for
01:27:37 Bobby you had a driving license in Antony's name which you lost didn't right another document yeah yeah absolutely did that driving license have your then cover address on it
01:27:57 I don't
01:28:03 know if your cover driving license had fallen
01:28:08 fallen into the possession of the far right at a
01:28:15 a demonstration the risk that ant and his family are concerned about might have eventuated might it I I doubt it but
01:28:26 I I say I doubt it I I don't think that's POS anything's possible I suppose did you travel to Birmingham to do any Research into the area where Anthony grew up
01:28:42 Anthony grew up no did you go again I've got to keep St as far as I recollect no did you travel to alen yes and what did you do in Olden I think I looked for a place of
01:28:58 Olden I think I looked for a place of birth I think or a place where I would have lived or something like that
01:29:07 um
01:29:18 yeah and I and the other factor is I do not recollect that my Heritage was meant to be
01:29:22 to be Jamaican don't recollect that at all that was not my perspective of my Heritage so I looked for a place that would um
01:29:28 would um be um where I could have stayed I I think I said that I'd been adopted or something like
01:29:45 that why did you do that and not go to Birmingham when anyone looking up your birth certificate in Anthony's name would see that Anthony was born in Birmingham I guess it's because didn't want the identity in the first
01:30:02 want the identity in the first place um did you conduct any research at all about Antony's family no did you cause any checks to be made
01:30:16 no did you cause any checks to be made on Antony's family by anybody else not as far as I know I can't say that the office didn't do it but not as far as I know
01:30:30 you can police officers can have next ofkin checks conducted and things like that was anything like that done as I said as far as I was concerned I don't believe that was the
01:30:44 case there's some evidence we've heard that sometimes local special branches were enlisted uh to run checks on the deceased children's family do you
01:30:57 family do you have any recollection of that happening
01:30:59 happening again my identity was a strange one um I as I said I didn't want to be born in the United Kingdom I was happy to be
01:31:15 in the United Kingdom I was happy to be overseas UK birth somewhere else and my driving license etc etc I wanted to be in
01:31:21 in Germany so I didn't find any need to do that but the identity that you in fact adoped was given or whatever yeah yeah I can't remember how that came about this is what I'm saying I can't remember how it actually came about was your cover tested before you
01:31:40 about was your cover tested before you deployed no was it did you run through with your managers the cover you'd adopted and would were were tested to make sure that I uh it hung together I don't remember it like that I it may
01:31:53 don't remember it like that I it may well have been I I remember saying that I wouldn't be using that anyway this is what I'd be using um and I'd only use it
01:32:05 using um and I'd only use it officially and can you get that from the various places you need to get it um in practice you've said that you use the name Bobby Bobby correct did you ever use Bobby McGee not really did you
01:32:18 ever use Bobby McGee not really did you use I mean now and then now now and then but and I and I used Bobby Lewis now and then which is what you're going to say yeah did you say that Bobby had a
01:32:33 yeah did you say that Bobby had a Jamaican Heritage I do not believe I did we heard evidence early this week from the woman we're calling be correct she said that you did and I doubted that might she be right I think she's wrong I think I use another Caribbean
01:32:51 island uh which island do you think you used in the Windwood Islands
01:33:01 did you know what Antony's Heritage was
01:33:12 no at the end of your
01:33:21 deployment did you hand in your cover documents
01:33:24 documents with Antony's identity yes did you do that because you were required to or did you just do so it was
01:33:40 expected can we move now to your cover accommodation before we do that may I just clarify something arising out of the topic you've just been asking questions about of course sir
01:33:59 um did you yourself go to St Katherine's house to look into the uh records of the deceased child whose identity you adopted I'm not certain chair that's the point I am not certain what I did at that particular time it would
01:34:11 time it would seem that I should have done that but I'm not certain that I did because I had my mindset on what I
01:34:22 because I had my mindset on what I wanted and couldn't achieve I was told subsequently I couldn't achieve it so maybe I did reluctantly go to sina's house but I'm not going to say it
01:34:38 sina's house but I'm not going to say it 100% because I cannot recall that do you have any positive recollection of any other member of the SDS finding a birth certificate for you no I
01:34:49 no I don't so the position is simply that it is possible yourself visited St Katherine's house possible can't say you didn't but you have no positive recollection of doing cor thank
01:35:08 you cover accommodation um Mr Morris you describe living more or less fulltime at your cover
01:35:24 fulltime at your cover address um that's more than a lot of the witnesses we've been hearing from say that they did not all most could you help us with why you did
01:35:34 that I think it depends on the organization that you're in it depends how you are as an individual in terms of how much work you're willing to put into your
01:35:47 into your task and it also for my case is the fact that I'm readily identifiable by by the comrades so I always always had a
01:36:04 comrades so I always always had a fear that the comrades would come along and I wasn't there and I had no reason excuse not to be there and the other factor is that one soon learns when you're in the field and this is why I said earlier on it's
01:36:20 is why I said earlier on it's individualistic that your safest place is actually to say where you are and that is this this is your home and that's where you live that's where you're
01:36:28 safe what impact did that have on your home life
01:36:34 massive basically I wouldn't laugh at home because I had a distinctive laugh I wouldn't walk the streets of my children I wouldn't go to My Children's Schools I never went to the um
01:36:56 never went to the um um uh um any of the you know festivities be it Christmas be it new year uh be it uh Easter be it sports day be it whatever I never went now you say about others in some organizations I I would like you to be very careful about no no no I'm going to say in some
01:37:13 say in some organizations uh it's they're not big so you can move from one part of London to another part of London or whever and you're never going to bump into anybody but the S swp is a large organization I'm readily identifiable and therefore I had absolute fear that you know I'd go to
01:37:28 absolute fear that you know I'd go to the doctors and the doctor or the nurse might be
01:37:29 might be involved I just couldn't take the chance so what happened is I went less and less frequently and obviously my mind anyway was orientated to the
01:37:42 was orientated to the party did you for example register with a GP no I never registered with a GP did your were your managers aware how much of the time you were spending in your cover address absolutely because
01:37:56 your cover address absolutely because because I actually wrote a report saying I'm spending way above the time that we are paid for and therefore you know why
01:38:08 are paid for and therefore you know why are we being paid the way we are because I'm putting a hell of a lot of time in I'm not being paid for
01:38:20 it did your managers express any concern no did they do anything about the effect it was having on your family life no
01:38:28 did they contact your wife no did your wife contact them
01:38:39 no did the fact you were infiltrating a very large organization in relative to comp in relative terms and
01:38:46 terms and living most of the time in your cover identity did that contribute to your sense of losing touch with your real
01:38:57 sense of losing touch with your real life totally utterly there is no danger in me going into Tes school and signing my name as you know Bobby Lewis whatever there is a big danger in me
01:39:10 whatever there is a big danger in me signing it the way around so therefore basically
01:39:12 basically I live that life as my real life and my proper life was relegated
01:39:28 going to move we'll come back to your well-being much later in in the questioning but uh I want to move now to targeting uh
01:39:42 targeting uh please I want to show you a document it's at tab b42 sir it's 7471 156
01:40:00 now if we go to page uh four
01:40:10 please this is a
01:40:16 a minute dated the 14th of Janu 14th of December
01:40:19 December 1990 which on our understanding is before you had actually joined the SDS and it's from detective Chief
01:40:30 SDS and it's from detective Chief superintendent wait to Commander Ops with DCI gray and Di 86 we discussed the proposal that DC Morris should join the
01:40:42 proposal that DC Morris should join the SDS it was agreed that he seemed to be a good candidate and there were no serious
01:40:57 good candidate and there were no serious reservations about him joining the squad it is intended that he will work in the Hackney area targeted principally upon the S
01:41:06 swp were you told by your managers that that was the plan for
01:41:16 you yes um I was approached by a different
01:41:18 different manager
01:41:25 um when when I was on esquad I think I can mentioned his name Bob Lambert that's his that's open who I
01:41:36 Bob Lambert that's his that's open who I had infiltrated a different organization from the desk I was a desk officer and um I
01:41:43 um I had provided a lot of Intelligence on that
01:41:45 that organization um and Bob Lambert came to me and said we
01:41:56 and Bob Lambert came to me and said we want you to stop doing that because we want to put you into a diff you know another part of the branch and that's when it was explained to me about um what you call the haries so we want to put you into another part of the
01:42:10 of the branch um and you've been on C Squad we'll look at leftwing organizations so that's how I originally got the feel what is your recollection of when you were first told that you would be targeted principally upon thew
01:42:34 P again I don't really have a great recollection but I think it would have been
01:42:36 been okay
01:42:41 okay um and I think one of the reasons would have been because I'd done some work around
01:42:47 around that um that I saw them as basically a subversive organization at the moment I'm just interested in when you were told that that's what they had in mind can yeah
01:43:00 that's what they had in mind can yeah yeah that's what I'm saying I I'd done some work on them on C Squad and so I would just thought
01:43:08 okay do you have a positive recollection of being told that you were going to be targeted towards thep could we go now to the document which is at your tab B7 sir 3707
01:43:41 this is a um Security Service note for file it's recording a visit to the SDS made by Security Service staff on the 10th of July 1991 uh which by on our understanding is shortly before you actually
01:43:58 deployed it's says under paragraph 3A other matters of Interest a new SDS agent hn 86 gave me details of a new black agent whom they will initially float in the general extreme leftwing community in the
01:44:15 extreme leftwing community in the Hackney Stoke Newington area before probably focusing him on swp by this stage did you
01:44:28 swp by this stage did you know that you were probably going to be asked to focus on the swp yeah as I'm I'm guessing as the biggest organization it would make sense yeah the
01:44:45 yeah the um fact that you are black is mentioned on that report did anybody in any discussion with you about who you should Target refer to your
01:44:58 Target refer to your race no but I could see that it was
01:45:07 advantageous do you recall the geographical targeting being told to start in the Hackney and Stoke Newington area
01:45:20 area I I I can't recollect whether that was or this my recollection is because I know it subsequently or because I knew it at the time but I possibly knew it at
01:45:36 it at the time but I possibly knew it at the time because I had done some work on the left in C Squad and it was well known that that was a hive of activity of the S
01:45:53 swp the early '90s were a time of increas increasing racial tension and in particular a Resurgence of the British national party did anybody refer to that when
01:46:06 when discussing choice of target with you
01:46:14 um to my mind as an SP offic it would have been something that I would have automatically thought of can you recall whether or not anybody ever spoke to you about that it may have been the case
01:46:34 um from the work I've done on the rest of the branch I knew it was very clear that all
01:46:39 that all organizations except for the black ones of course who were black always wanted somebody black in the
01:46:45 organization on the left of course I'm not talking about the
01:46:58 right and if we go take that document down go to the next tab uh 26 328 we see that very sentiment recorded in writing by the security
01:47:13 service um document dated the 15th of July 1991 it says on the 10th of July head SDS gave me the following particulars of their new agent just being launched into the field and then
01:47:24 being launched into the field and then it gives Anthony Fitzgerald Lewis born 13th of May 1961 and is that your first cover
01:47:42 address room D5 Walsingham Road Clapton I think it is and then it says their intention is initially to float him in the general extreme leftwing community in the Hackney Stoke Newington
01:47:53 community in the Hackney Stoke Newington area before probably focusing him on swp he is a black man and likely to be snapped up by S swp very
01:48:08 snapped up by S swp very true was it your understanding that you were to um float a little bit around Hackney and sto Newington uh before settling in absolutely with the S
01:48:18 swp um if we could go now to tab B9 726 965
01:48:39 this is a targeting strategy for your deployment which is signed by
01:48:41 signed by hn
01:48:53 886 um it um amongst other things um is quite
01:48:57 quite detailed were you shown it no I'm just going to read it now all right so it's gone to security service and could you just put it down again this is not from the security
01:49:10 again this is not from the security service this is no it's gone to them I'm just looking at the top right yeah okay is from right DCI 86
01:49:19 yeah yeah
01:49:28 it does refer to your previous experience it says at the bottom of the first paragraph previous experience of covering ethnic groups has demonstrated that unless there is a major issue which is likely to stir the feelings of the black community at large for a
01:49:39 black community at large for a considerable length of time coverage of the individuals involved by a dedicated field officer is not sufficiently productive well actually I think that may be referring to the experience of
01:49:53 may be referring to the experience of the branch that's correct is it yeah I would say
01:49:54 would say so um then it goes on to say The Fringe community in Hackney and Stoke Newington regularly becomes involved in issues uh which have an effect on the
01:50:05 issues uh which have an effect on the maintenance of public order particularly involving squatting antipole tax and anti- police matters whilst most of the latter are now past issues DS Morris will for the immediate future be
01:50:22 will for the immediate future be employed in monitoring the activities of local groups for example the Hackney Community defense Association and the Hackney solidarity group it is not envisaged however that
01:50:33 group it is not envisaged however that he will commit himself to membership of any such organization but rather move
01:50:44 any such organization but rather move from one to the other in order to assess their level of activity and potential involvement in future issues was that targeting strategy communicated to you
01:51:06 yes I don't remember the groups necessarily because I think there was other groups it was just that um to bounce around groups or you have a background and then in the end people will think that you've been around
01:51:17 forever okay well we we'll be moving to some of your of your early reporting in due course uh for the meantime could we go to the next uh paragraph the Socialist Workers Party is well represented in the area with two branches in the London burough of
01:51:29 branches in the London burough of Hackney it is likely that DS Morris will encounter s swp members very early on in his SDS career however although this group is likely to become his long-term
01:51:40 group is likely to become his long-term Target he is to avoid deliberate contact until his assessment of local issues and groups is completed and he has
01:51:52 groups is completed and he has established a more credible background the swp has a much has much as much difficulty in recruiting members from
01:52:04 difficulty in recruiting members from the ethnic minorities as other political groups and it is believed because of this factor and DS Morris's Lively personality he would be quickly assimilated into the party with the
01:52:15 assimilated into the party with the danger of progressing too rapidly such progress could prove unsustainable to the inexperienced field officer therefore he has been made aware that great care must be taken in his preparation for any ultimate approach DS Morris's progress will be
01:52:28 approach DS Morris's progress will be subject to the usual daily monitoring and a further review of his deployment will be made after six months first of all to pick up on that last
01:52:38 last point to your knowledge was your deployment the subject of a further review after six months
01:52:54 I can't remember the timings it may have been quicker than that
01:53:02 that um it may have been quicker than that when I was told um yeah we'll just push you straight towards s swp it it may not have been I haven't seen this document before
01:53:17 before obviously yeah I I I'm simply perhaps we can put it this way can you recall your deployment being reviewed
01:53:31 in such a strict fashion no um in terms of the danger of progressing too rapidly within the S swp was that discussed with
01:53:48 was that discussed with you it would be later on yes can you recall in what terms um you were instructed in relation to progressing within the
01:54:01 swp um I can't remember the timings how quickly it was but but once I did join the S swp I was pretty quickly a member of the branch
01:54:13 of the branch committee um and they wish to push me further and I think I suggested that this would not be positive um
01:54:27 positive um um and I think that fit now I see it it obviously fit with what they were thinking as well when you say they the office yeah thank you um and did you understand that your
01:54:44 um and did you understand that your targeting did involve assessing local issues and
01:54:50 groups I think how it's put there is I
01:54:57 is I looked and reported on groups that had issues and some issues that needed dealing with I push it on so they'd hopefully be dealt with um I think one in my recollection is something about
01:55:09 in my recollection is something about police corruption which I wrote about and put and moved forward
01:55:21 um again the language utilized in a report is not exactly the same language utilized when you're speaking to somebody about about the issue so I've never seen this before um but I think the elements of it are probably about right yeah I mean if I put it in a more informal way were you told to go
01:55:34 more informal way were you told to go into Hackley and Stoke Newington and see what was going on yes but I I would have I also wished to do that myself because
01:55:45 I also wished to do that myself because I knew I needed to have longevity as it would be
01:55:47 would be perceived and did your special branch background mean that
01:55:58 your special branch background mean that you would know what special Branch would be interested in absolutely like goes for all we're all special Branch officers it's just another section of special branch that we were working in and I knew what would be of interest to the
01:56:06 the branch um and obviously the security service uh and in fact International partners and so therefore um I would
01:56:21 partners and so therefore um I would report on what would be of interest to US security service and international partners International Security Services could we take that document down please and go to tab b126
01:56:46 329 this is a security service document it's from
01:56:48 it's from F2 um it's note for file it's about you if you see hn 78 top left um it says di hn 67 rang on the 29th of
01:57:01 hn 67 rang on the 29th of October uh to tell us that hn 78 had been approached by both Clapton branch and Hackney South Branch of
01:57:16 and Hackney South Branch of swp uh which given the choice did we recommend that he should join after Consulting F2 I replied hack South hn 67
01:57:31 Consulting F2 I replied hack South hn 67 said he would go for Hackney South is it right that you initially did join the Hackney South
01:57:39 Branch see I thought I'd join dson Branch there's some there's some evidence that you joined that you were in do in the dolon branch later on might it have been that you joined Hackney
01:57:53 it have been that you joined Hackney South to dlon it may well have been yes can you
01:57:59 can you recall being asked to go for the Hackney South Branch rather than any other you mean by the office yes yeah the
01:58:12 um I wouldn't have questioned it let's put it that way I don't I don't recall the actual in but I wouldn't have I wouldn't have questioned it if they said hacky safe was it then hne safe so would now be an appropriate time to give the stenographer a break
01:58:24 to give the stenographer a break certainly um are we breaking for 10 or 15
01:58:25 15 minutes 10 minutes we'll break for 10
02:10:50 e e
02:11:49 Mr Morris um subversion and the S swp uh you've already told us that uh your understanding was that the swp was a subversive organization just want to explore with you how you got that
02:12:01 explore with you how you got that understanding am I right that you were given some training on subversion when you first joined special Branch yeah
02:12:12 you first joined special Branch yeah part in so far as part of the special Branch training is to explain what certain aspects are and definitions etc
02:12:24 certain aspects are and definitions etc etc so definition of Tourism definitions of subversion Espionage counter Espionage Etc um and I went on yeah I went on the Espionage
02:12:35 on yeah I went on the Espionage course for for for sub I'm interested in subversion what was as best you can recall what was the definition that you were working to for a subversive group it's the um to overthrow or
02:12:53 it's the um to overthrow or undermine um parliamentary democracy by I think they said by Yeah by industrial uh political or violent
02:13:07 means um in terms of whose job it was to decide whether a group was subversive based on the information
02:13:19 subversive based on the information available is it right that it is for the security service to be the subject matter expert and to deem a group subversive or or have I got that
02:13:34 wrong the fact that the security service grew out of special branch and I know 100 years ago 1909 um and the special Branch was the first organization that dealt with such issues um I'd say it was a joint thing between security service
02:13:52 a joint thing between security service and and the Metropolitan Police Special Branch to be precise not any of them um and obviously the home office would it be fair to say that these sorts of decisions were above your pay grade
02:14:01 pay grade absolutely um and that we' be best going to them absolutely the decisive answer I mean the things are written down in D the defense of the realm act etc etc you can see that um you've caused some
02:14:14 can see that um you've caused some excitement in your witness statement by asserting that the home office designated the swp as a subversive organization um would you be prepared to defer
02:14:22 defer to more senior members of the police service and the security service for the workings of that sort of
02:14:44 decision I studied criminology as you may or may not know and part of it was this and there's a tripart system and under the tripartite system this whole home office has a role to play in that
02:14:58 decision thank you it certainly has a role to play in countering subversion
02:15:12 role to play in countering subversion we've seen many a document in that I'll move on now um tasking as opposed to targeting the tasks within your um deployment I want to explore the relative roles of your managers the
02:15:23 relative roles of your managers the security service and your own initiative so can I start with your managers first of all you say in your witness statement that managerial tasking was done openly and generally I got the
02:15:35 openly and generally I got the impression from your statement that it was done at the meetings at the safe
02:15:49 was done at the meetings at the safe house is that correct yeah uh could you give us some assistance with how specific the tasking that you was given not very specific at all were you asked to pay attention to specific
02:16:09 events it was ad hoc um and again please don't take me on time frames but it was ad hoc and dependent upon what was happening it could be so let's take Welling we need to know about that if
02:16:22 Welling we need to know about that if it's um otherwise it's you know what you can
02:16:26 can see what you think as an SP officer is of Interest etc etc for example would it have been clear to you that your managers were interested in the march at Welling on
02:16:43 interested in the march at Welling on the 16th of October absolutely 1993 and you would be were you asked to keep an eye out on
02:16:48 that it could work the other way around that we were giving them that information first and then they said we need more on this I see uh were you asked to report on specific
02:17:05 people um as a general rule you mean at all can you recall being a general rule right um in the
02:17:09 um in the swp that probably would relate to individuals that you as the officer thought were of
02:17:20 thought were of interest and by far that's not the vast majority
02:17:21 majority and who were strategists leading strategists example or who were leaders
02:17:32 strategists example or who were leaders of the organization in some way shape or means that doesn't mean necessarily in the Central Committee that can be at Branch
02:17:33 Branch level um and then other aspect was those who may well be violent or whatever that would also have been of Interest so is you figuring out what was of interest
02:17:48 you figuring out what was of interest and were you ever given a steer would' like more about X less about y never given less about why but sometimes we'd like to know more about a particular individual specific
02:18:01 individual specific groups you mean outside the S swp any swp umbrella organization so that goes for the ANL SS um stop the war all those organizations which are
02:18:16 all those organizations which are basically uh uh Socialist Workers Party but have got a different name and will you ever given bespoke task to get very specific pieces of
02:18:40 intelligence I don't think so let me
02:18:47 think okay
02:18:49 okay Marxism might have been one of the areas where it was interesting excuse me it was interesting to
02:18:59 to get
02:19:01 get um lists of leading members of the
02:19:13 um lists of leading members of the party probably somewhere around the um fiscal um aspects of the party if possible
02:19:18 possible um anything that you do as an SP officer honor fully comprehensive report basically can we now move to the security
02:19:26 security service and could we go so to tab c120 which is in the second file of documents uh 33501
02:19:51 please so this is a uh an attachment to police Source report dates the report to the 25th of January 1993 it says uh it's
02:20:03 the 25th of January 1993 it says uh it's got your uh nominal there um reply to F2 could we go to the next page please this is a consumer comment slip I'm afraid we've had to extensively gist and redact it from the security service
02:20:21 and redact it from the security service but it reads um handwritten notes of of security service office regarding the attached SDS report on the swp checkbox indicating information provided as extremely
02:20:34 provided as extremely valuable um in the papers there a number of reports with this type of comment slip attached did you ever get to see
02:20:45 slip attached did you ever get to see these slips no did their contents ever get communicated to you um
02:20:55 content probably not it might well have been said more in the era of Bob Lambert that you know good work's being done etc
02:21:08 that you know good work's being done etc etc yeah so if you submit a report which is deemed extremely valuable were you give
02:21:15 praise as I said more in the lumbert era not necessarily before if we carry on with this report and go the next page
02:21:27 please it's a report if we have paragraphs 2 to four
02:21:38 please a report on the state and strategy of the Socialist Workers Party as it ENT as
02:21:45 1993 and it goes on to set out in various ways um would that be your analysis of the state and strategy of the
02:22:02 swp I don't know if it's solely me
02:22:14 um but obviously my intelligence would add to it but but I would say that's potentially an amalgam can you skim it back down again
02:22:25 okay so
02:22:28 that's see
02:22:47 Source some of that potentially is me so example realism
02:23:00 when yeah because it changed the S swp changed when I joined it from being much more theoretical to somewhat less
02:23:08 theoretical one gets the Impressions from the documents that what you are adding by being inside the S swp is the ability to write reports such as this
02:23:21 ability to write reports such as this which is Security Service f extremely valuable correct is that fair correct could we go over the page please um to paragraph six um and in
02:23:32 please um to paragraph six um and in particular that says the swp strategy for building the party is divided into seven elements as follows and it's little F uh that I'm interested
02:23:51 in that says a new Branch meeting procedure is to be adopted this entails the speaker talking for no longer than 20 minutes then opening questions up to the floor for brief TW minute contributions or questions in both cases the emphasis must be on allowing new
02:24:06 the emphasis must be on allowing new members to speak the chairperson must be strong enough to prevent established comrades from hijacking the proceedings and making long drawn out analysis even to the extent of the chair declining to
02:24:18 to the extent of the chair declining to call certain comrades after this section the speaker should sum up for about 5 minutes the second half of the meeting should be a short sharp discussion on a topical item in the news that week or on a forthcoming local party
02:24:31 a forthcoming local party activity can you recall the S swp moving to this kind of meeting I just preempted myself before absolutely that's what I was saying yeah less theoretical
02:24:48 was saying yeah less theoretical um and in your deployment did you sometimes chair meetings
02:24:53 I was a branch member
02:25:05 so I was in the branch committee so I guess that would be expected for me to do that now and then
02:25:12 but I'm thinking because I'm mixing up now excuse me I'm mixing up the anti-nazi league and where I did a lot of speaking as opposed to S
02:25:23 as opposed to S swb
02:25:29 um quite possibly and as a police officer acting under cover having to make the sorts of decisions required of a branch chair how did you how did you go about
02:25:50 that I didn't consider myself as a police officer under cover consider myself as a
02:25:56 comrade and so did you follow the party line I was the comrade and frankly indoctrinated to the process and did that involve um declining to call certain com comrades I wouldn't have
02:26:07 certain com comrades I wouldn't have wanted to make enemies of comrades any of them and it wouldn't be a task that I would have done that often in fact I would have been it would have been a
02:26:22 would have been it would have been a task that I would have thought not to do but on occasions I would have had to do so that's why I was hesitant before um I would have just played it as per Central Committee
02:26:36 Central Committee regulations could we have page five please in paragraph
02:26:46 s and this is a comment section uh the whole of the party structure is to concentrate on the Recruitment and Retention of new members the leadership sees as a priority the recruitment of black and workingclass
02:26:59 recruitment of black and workingclass persons this policy may not be welcomed by the long-term middleclass comrades who make up the bulk of the party these latter Pride themselves on their knowledge of marxist revolutionary
02:27:14 knowledge of marxist revolutionary Theory and see the new drive for numbers at any cost as devaluing the club this is especially true when a rather new enthusiastic recruit obtains a position of influence in line with the new party guidelines in preference to them the Central Committee will have to be
02:27:26 Central Committee will have to be careful not to antagonize these older members too much in case a newer ones should choose to leave the ship if and when the present crisis
02:27:39 when the present crisis abates so would it be fair to say we have on the one hand the sort of analysis that the security service craving and on the other you are being
02:27:52 craving and on the other you are being put into quite a tricky position aren't you having to be careful not to antagonize older members
02:28:03 correct could we um take that down now please and could we look at a different way in which you um your material was being provided to the security service uh c175 sir 33491
02:28:28 this is the this is a report on the 1993 swp annual conference um can we start with we'll come back to the um consumer comments but could we start with page two
02:28:49 please so you'll see there that your nominal has been it appears twice at the top of the page um report is dated the 12th of November and Par from paragraph one we see that it concerns the 1993 annual conference
02:29:03 1993 annual conference um I'm not going to go into all the detail of that conference now can I go straight please to page seven and to paragraph eight paragraphs 18 and
02:29:19 following there's a body of a report and then here to towards the end there's a section under the heading sorry I need the heading immediately above
02:29:30 the heading immediately above please thank you uh answers to questions raised by box 500 and not dealt with
02:29:43 raised by box 500 and not dealt with above and then each of the following paragraphs 18 19 and 20 sets out a question and then an answer M um I is it right for us to infer from this that when you wrote this
02:30:00 this that when you wrote this report uh you must have known what it was that the security service was interested in I knew of it as a special Branch officer but it's not necessarily the case that the questions were
02:30:11 case that the questions were provided I would produce a report our reports I would pass them to the back office at the bi-weekly
02:30:24 office at the bi-weekly meetings and the back office then would put them together in terms of what customers wished and presumably they would read through the report and they
02:30:39 would read through the report and they could see Ah that's what they're looking for and then do that on very rare occasions
02:30:41 occasions I
02:30:48 I recollect I'm thinking do I recollect it's not a subsequent recollection I think I recollect that specific questions may have been put from the security service for something that I hadn't covered in the report potentially at the next
02:31:08 meeting but is it right to say one way or another the security services the customers wishes were communicated to you and you did your best to meet them
02:31:19 you and you did your best to meet them correct could we go back to page one and to the comments
02:31:31 please thank you very much for a full and useful report of the swp conference there seems to be a contradiction between the party wishing members to join the S swp regardless of socialist ideas in a growth for growth sake
02:31:47 ideas in a growth for growth sake yet also demanding Hardline Financial commitment I hadn't realized only half had re-registered your comments on ANL are
02:32:01 re-registered your comments on ANL are also fascinating and the divide and Rule philosophy is keeping it truly in the hands of the swp is there any
02:32:15 swp is there any evidence of uh attempted hijack by other groups so is a question like that is anybody else trying to hijack the ANL from the swp is that the sort of thing that would be fed down to you
02:32:36 that would be fed down to you yeah thank you um having been through your relationship with your managers having looked at some documents involving the security service um you also say in your witness statement that you were more or less
02:32:47 statement that you were more or less left to get on with it um can we just explore that a little bit in what sense were you allowed just to get on with
02:33:03 it whatever I saw understood assessed and Analysis is always difficult um that I thought maybe of Interest I
02:33:14 um that I thought maybe of Interest I would pass and also if I could get to organizations which were of interest within the orbit of the s swp and what I mean by that is they were not uh
02:33:26 mean by that is they were not uh umbrella organizations of the S swb but had connections with the S swp um I don't know if I'm going red here or well um I'm sort of interested in were you given any were you left to
02:33:43 in were you given any were you left to your own devices as to how you obtained the
02:33:44 the information yes and in terms of what to look for there's obviously some guidance from the
02:33:55 there's obviously some guidance from the security service some guidance from your managers and you've got your pre-existing training correct is there anything else influencing your decisions as to what to report me for my you
02:34:12 as to what to report me for my you know if I could see so example if I you know I was invited to Devol example do can I speak there I don't I don't need that example um I just would like any
02:34:25 that example um I just would like any group that I know would be of interest to the security service to special Branch to other police Security Services elsewhere that's what I would look
02:34:37 elsewhere that's what I would look for were you given any feedback about what was done with your
02:34:55 reporting past as per normal special Branch reports to Security Service other sections of special Branch um European leis on Section to European police Security Services Etc um I I'm assuming that from your prior service you knew how the system of disseminating intelligence worked uh I
02:35:09 disseminating intelligence worked uh I think this question was directed more at did you were you told what was being done with any given report no no no no you just knew because you knew the
02:35:20 you just knew because you knew the system I know the system correct can we start
02:35:21 start um now looking at some of your reporting you've been shown a lot of material for the purposes of your witness
02:35:30 witness statement um can I ask you to clarify you you said you thought a reasonable amount of your reporting has been
02:35:43 amount of your reporting has been recovered how much do you think is missing difficult to assess
02:35:51 um that I couldn't put a figure on it um there are some things that International wise example that did go in that I didn't see or that may be because it's beyond our terms of
02:36:05 because it's beyond our terms of reference right okay so that's one thing there's
02:36:07 there's internal political governmental political things that I haven't seen that I reported on internal to the United Kingdom right and I don't know again I I won't I won't ask you to go
02:36:23 again I I won't I won't ask you to go into any details now what I was really wanting to understand was whether you thought there was a great deal missing just a little bit missing it's difficult
02:36:35 just a little bit missing it's difficult to assess um if that's everything you've shown me that's everything then there's quite a bit more
02:36:47 right could we now look at the early months of your deployment the first two reports that we've recovered both relate to the Hackney solidarity group
02:37:00 group um we saw in the documents we went to earlier mention of the Hackney solidarity group um does it follow that you started with
02:37:12 you started with them could have been somebody else as well I see can we let's have a let's have a look at them let's have a look first of all at C2 2
02:37:42 33244 this um is dated the 12th of August 91 it's the second report that we found in time does bear your nominal um
02:38:00 found in time does bear your nominal um top left as you will see and on the side so the security service seemed to have understood it to have been uh your uh reporting and have filed it as such uh do you recall engaging with the Hackney solidarity
02:38:14 group s I'm just reading just sure
02:38:36 probably is
02:38:39 is um it says in paragraph two uh that a copy of the group's aims and principles is attached
02:38:53 and principles is attached and I'd like to look at a little of that if we go to page three in the file
02:39:05 please paragraph one the the middle paragraph under one the one that begins the only class that gains says the only class that gains from capitalism is the ruling class and it is only the working
02:39:17 ruling class and it is only the working class you can gain from the destruction of capitalism the this is why we call ourselves a workingclass organization we
02:39:29 ourselves a workingclass organization we want to make it clear that we believe in the destruction as opposed to for example the reform of capitalism so they leave no
02:39:42 reform of capitalism so they leave no room for doubt there uh what their aim is if we go over the page please to par page four um and to the bottom under paragraph
02:39:50 paragraph two um it tells us a little bit about means we believe that we the majority of people living in the society will never get anything we want or need without
02:40:08 get anything we want or need without fighting for it whether it's a pay rise better housing more nurseries in short everything that improves our living conditions we are never going to be given anything on a plate by those who rule Our Lives their basic interest is
02:40:23 rule Our Lives their basic interest is the extraction of Max maximum profit out of our lives this is why we believe in helping to build resistance to the attacks on our class it is the only way to improve living conditions this resistance can take many forms
02:40:38 resistance can take many forms information agitation striking occupation sabotage
02:40:50 sabotage Revolution it is only through resistance that we can start getting what we need and then if we could go to page nine
02:40:57 please under section
02:41:14 nine and the first paragraph Under The Heading uh our history is a history of struggle but it is also a history of betrayal time and time again our struggles have been diverted diffused and destroyed by our so-called leaders these leaders have separate interests from ours it is not only that they lead
02:41:28 from ours it is not only that they lead separate lives and earn more money than us they are an actual part of the social structure that is oppressing and exploiting us for example the role of
02:41:40 exploiting us for example the role of the Trade union leadership is to sell capitalism to us trade unions were legalized by the state in the mid 19th century to help control the working
02:41:56 century to help control the working class the ruling class realized that it was easier to negotiate with three isolated individuals than 3,000 angry workers uh
02:42:08 workers uh so no doubt there from this document that this is a group that wishes to overthrow the state um potentially by a range of means but if we go back to page one please
02:42:22 to paragraph
02:42:30 five in common with most other Anarchist run groups hsg's finances are in a parlor State the group continues to hold video nights at the Rio Cinema which
02:42:42 video nights at the Rio Cinema which vary as to financial viability according to the subject matter and a new edition of their publication the Hackney Heckler is a about to be published some thought has been given to superseding the
02:43:00 has been given to superseding the Heckler and the quarterly pamphlet the bulletin by a more frequent cheaper single page newsletter in terms of revolutionary potency the Hackney solidarity group doesn't appear to have had any real
02:43:16 doesn't appear to have had any real revolutionary potency is that fair uh without money you can't do much um now in terms of why you reported this was there any reason above and
02:43:36 this was there any reason above and beyond you had been asked to assess groups in Hackney and Stoke Newington
02:43:42 um intelligence especially in analysis thereof is not a science it's an art and the real fact factor is when you look at it from the perspective of the branch is that any of the individuals that attend
02:44:01 that any of the individuals that attend this one of them may well decide that it isn't working for him or her and decide to go out and do something themselves as La wolf so you've always got to assess the potential for
02:44:12 the potential for the statements of the organization orientating people towards what the organ oranization wants to happen but can't achieve at that particular
02:44:27 particular time on one of a that is we've seen this time and time again yeah was your understanding that your assessment of the hsg was likely to lead your superiors to conclude that it was not
02:44:41 superiors to conclude that it was not worthy of further attention as as well other than as it's something that I would and I don't it doesn't say on there but I don't know if I mentioned it's something that the desk should continue to look at just because of the war La wolf individual
02:44:52 war La wolf individual thing um which you get a lot of the times the people like um David Copeland example goes to the
02:45:08 example goes to the BMP thinking that it's going to be what he wants and it isn't so he takes his harder action himself that's why you need to keep looking at
02:45:15 organizations and is that your personal view or do you understand that to have been the view of mpsb npsb desk officers one of the task was
02:45:29 npsb desk officers one of the task was and I was one of course for a times was to monitor potential for any problems that might arise politically of course because we're only dealing with politics here um so the net is cast very wide
02:45:43 here um so the net is cast very wide absolutely let's look at the next batch of reports the next three each concern a different group this is an next3 in time but there's a strong anti-racist
02:46:01 but there's a strong anti-racist anti-fascist theme to them all so let's just have a look at them first of all tab three sir uh 2884
02:46:27 we're 30th of August 1991 here again it's been filed on the basis that it's your
02:46:28 your report um and it says materially at paragraph 2 provides a little bit of information about the nmp's uh plans to confront uh fascism
02:46:42 nmp's uh plans to confront uh fascism following the March against Fascism and racism in pekam on Saturday the 23rd of August a new and monitoring project which supported the March has adopted the following proposals to counteract the efforts of the British national
02:47:01 the efforts of the British national party and local residents to disrupt any future March in the pekam area and uh then it talks about organizing with other interested parties black and white people to participate by leafleting surrounding areas particularly those with large black and Asian populations
02:47:18 with large black and Asian populations to continue efforts to identify document and confront fascists so essentially you're reporting straightforward anti-fascist organizing an activity over the page sir and 2653 Sor is that the finish of that
02:47:34 2653 Sor is that the finish of that report yeah it's just just one p so my reporting for that would be that when they say
02:47:38 they say confront that means involve themselves in Conflict I big pardon it means involve themselves in Conflict physical conflict nine times out of 10 well confront can mean no but I'm say from the context of that of the report I
02:47:51 the context of that of the report I would have put that in for that reason otherwise it's pointless be putting it in I see if we go over the page um Central London anti- aarte group
02:48:03 um Central London anti- aarte group picket uh outside the South African Embassy the report is dated the 18th of September 1991 again filed under your
02:48:18 September 1991 again filed under your name um and it explains at paragraph two uh that it was a picket um on the anniversary 15th anniversary on the death in custody of Steve boo uh and paragraph four it says the
02:48:32 boo uh and paragraph four it says the proceedings were brought to an end by privacy privacy on behalf of Clark he spoke for several minutes about the need to keep the pressure on the South African regime and worked to bring
02:48:46 African regime and worked to bring socialism to the region and the world so this is an anti- aparte group picketing the South African Embassy back in the tail end of the aparte era um and they're also socialists y this is just
02:49:02 they're also socialists y this is just one of their routine activities is that fair it's fair and again as I said before it's reporting because you know
02:49:14 before it's reporting because you know the knowledge I was on the South African desk and um and South afri desk officer and boss Bureau for State security of South Africa was very active in London yeah I don't think we need to no but that's why I would have written the report okay you see so the desk understands where we're looking at if we go now please to um
02:49:31 go now please to um tab in fact there's another Clark report but we don't need to go to it to Tab 5
02:49:45 28218 there's the 25th of September
02:49:52 1991 if we could look at paragraph one
02:50:07 please y good so sorry par paragraph below my fault the the first main paragraph of text um on Wednesday the 18th of September 1991 a meeting was held at souk Town Hall by socialist organizer under the orac of the labor
02:50:22 organizer under the orac of the labor party young socialists the meeting was addressed by Lee Jasper of the souk black Consortium SBC and the national black caucus NBC and dealt with the proposed package of anti-racist and
02:50:39 proposed package of anti-racist and anti-fascist measures to be put in place by the SBC and NBC in the aftermath of the failed March Against Racism and fascism held last month in the Burmy and Rother hiive areas and the rest of the report goes on to um set out the
02:50:55 report goes on to um set out the measures that they are contemplating to give effect to their wishes but for my
02:51:10 give effect to their wishes but for my purposes those three reports the common theme between clar this meeting at uh Souther town hall and nmp that's all anti-racist it's all anti-fascist was attending that sort of meeting deliberate on your part
02:51:23 meeting deliberate on your part um probably uh as I said before you need to to see the contextualization of the reports I tried to explain regarding the South African one um the South Africans were active and they may have sought out
02:51:35 were active and they may have sought out individuals who they wanted to deal with as you know such things happened so that was the first thing and also you've got to look out
02:51:47 thing and also you've got to look out entryism into the labor party with uh militant
02:51:49 militant um and they set up various cover organizations so you report these things they go to the desk officer the desk officer has a whole host of time to look
02:52:05 officer has a whole host of time to look into the backgrounds see what's going on and understand whether this is a threat to the nation or it
02:52:11 isn't were was a were you deliberately attending meetings with an anti-racist and anti-fascist no I'm attending meetings which I think are worth
02:52:22 meetings which I think are worth reporting on because I'm will have been a lot of other report meetings and these are the ones which are there which you've seen and you've pulled out with the report on the labor party
02:52:41 out with the report on the labor party young socialists MH did the labor party connection give you any pause for thought no why not because the labor party was full of entryism
02:52:49 entryism the Labour party young socialists labor party young socialist as well I think if you look at militant tendency you'll you you'll hear that and what what were the
02:53:03 you'll hear that and what what were the rules for you reporting on a part of the labor party that it was understood was the subject of
02:53:15 entryism again I would pass that on then the desk officer who's looking in this particular on cquad that would be would make some assessment and I'm sure F2 Branch would make some assessment as to where they thought things were it's it
02:53:31 where they thought things were it's it wasn't for me out there to do the depth work to see whether it was or it wasn't of interest in terms of where one was going with a particular
02:53:42 particular organizations um can you recall being given any feedback one way or the other about these early do not recall any negative feedback but I may be wrong but I don't recall
02:53:53 I don't recall it can we now move to document
02:54:06 it can we now move to document 28233 tab C7 sir uh this is the first report in time that we've recovered which refers to the swp and it's a meeting of the justice for the Tottenham about the justice for the Tottenham 3 mhm
02:54:19 the Tottenham 3 mhm um I'll give you a moment just to uh have a look at the document and you will see from that paragraph number
02:54:32 see from that paragraph number two it explains what the purpose of the meeting
02:54:34 meeting was oh I canly read that it's very difficult to read do you want I'll I'll let me read it out on the 1st of October 1991 a meeting organized by the
02:54:45 1991 a meeting organized by the Socialist Workers Party swp and title Justice for the Tottenham 3 was held at the Hackney Town Hall Mayor Street London the meeting which began at 8:00
02:55:03 London the meeting which began at 8:00 p.m. and ended at about 1 p.m. attracted some 120 persons of varying ethnic and political
02:55:04 political backgrounds sharam ragip and privacy represented the Tottenham 3 campaign privacy the relation of Michael hickey spoke on behalf of the Bridgewater 4
02:55:20 spoke on behalf of the Bridgewater 4 campaign breeda Powell uh if if I I may not have read that correctly after apologizing for the absence of her father Billy power spoke about the plight of the Birmingham six and their
02:55:32 plight of the Birmingham six and their fight to bring to Justice the officers responsible for their incarceration privacy the partner of privacy a black Hackney Council employee who was recently sentenced to 18 months
02:55:47 who was recently sentenced to 18 months imprisonment for actual bodily harm as a result of defending himself against a racist attack spoke for free Martin Calver campaign finally Paul foot swp member and investigative journalist gave an overview of the state of British
02:56:01 an overview of the state of British Justice and the class and racist roots of its Prejudice the chair of the meeting was privacy a Hackney student housing
02:56:08 housing officer can you help us with how you came to attend this meeting I'm guessing that's just normal Branch member ship work just
02:56:20 normal Branch member ship work just being there and is there any reason why you chose to start by attending an event about that's a start racial Justice
02:56:31 about that's a start racial Justice campaign I don't know but I don't think that's a start I see what's your recollection of how it started well I was dragged in over several weeks um kind of protesting being a black nationalist
02:56:48 protesting being a black nationalist rather than a left-wing uh socialist um in many ways and being educated to it being the fact that it's a struggle of everybody rather than the struggle of particular
02:57:02 struggle of particular individuals um and this was probably just one of the meetings that I had
02:57:09 attended let's see the next three reports
02:57:11 reports are have a theme that I of the nmp you seem to report a bit on the n MP after that um can we look first of all at uh
02:57:49 28234 thank you and if we look at paragraph two you'll see um the date at the top 7 of October if we look at paragraph two
02:57:55 please the Hackney Community defense Association hcda and the newer monitoring project nmp have formed the free privacy campaign privacy is a black new member who is involved in a racial
02:58:10 new member who is involved in a racial incident in which it is alleged he was attacked by two white youths wielding bicycle chains one of whom was subsequently stabbed by privacy charged with actual bodily harm he was sentenced to 18 months in imprisonment and as a result dismissed from his employment
02:58:26 result dismissed from his employment with Hackney Council and if we could go to page to paragraph four
02:58:36 please funds for the campaign would appear to be held by the hcda and meetings will be held at the hcda regular Venue at the family center 50 rectory Road London n16
02:58:51 rectory Road London n16 first of all did you spend much time at the family center 50 recory Road I doubt it I don't I don't really know but I doubt it uh and can you help us with why you
02:59:06 it uh and can you help us with why you went to this meeting was it continuing the policy of assessing local groups you see as I said earlier on this assessing of lawful groups seems a
02:59:17 assessing of lawful groups seems a little bit strong it would be being part of law groups to improve and keep improving your background now when I went
02:59:26 went tow I didn't just go tow because you
02:59:38 tow I didn't just go tow because you know they don't necessarily think that they've got you you want them to keep trying to drag you in so if anything happens they've dragged you in so therefore I still probably be going to other meetings etc etc there's an
02:59:49 other meetings etc etc there's an element of playing hard to get with the swp correct could we take that down please and go to C11
02:59:54 C11 28314
03:00:11 please this is a report dated the 18th of November 1991 and if we look first of all at um paragraph two please
03:00:21 between 400 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. on Monday the 11th of November 1991 the 53rd anniversary of the Rees Crystal KN a picket was held outside the embassy of the Federal Republic of Germany belgrave
03:00:35 the Federal Republic of Germany belgrave Square London sw1 to protest against the beatings and killings of refugees in Germany by right-wing neo- Nai groups the seeming inactivity of the German
03:00:49 the seeming inactivity of the German government to combat them approximately a 100 persons attended the picket and there was
03:00:50 there was no Disorder so this is again an anti-fascist um action isn't it and if we go to paragraph
03:01:04 three the organizers of the picket the newm monitoring project chose the anniversary of the Imperial KN of broken glass to mount the demonstration because of its significance as an occasion of massive state sponsored racist Terror
03:01:23 massive state sponsored racist Terror leading to the genocide of of a minority so an nmp report and if we go to an nmp event sorry if we go to paragraph 4 during the course of the picket speeches were made by Bernie Grant MP
03:01:40 speeches were made by Bernie Grant MP Jeremy Corbin MP and rajie Menon of newm monitoring project Bernie Grant once again urged all those interested in anti-racist work to Lobby like-minded European organizations to to prevent the Advent of a fortress Europe in which
03:01:55 Advent of a fortress Europe in which black people were not welcome a theme which was developed by the other speakers and members of the picket now we understand Mr Morris that SDS officers often went to events at which members of parliament were
03:02:16 which members of parliament were speaking what I'm interested in is why did you report a short summary of the content of Bernie grants speech basically because that's what one does um when reporting information
03:02:29 does um when reporting information contextualizing where I haven't read the rest of the report so I can't see what it said um but contextualizing what the demonstration was about then again once that gets to the desk they'll make
03:02:45 that gets to the desk they'll make decisions and if we just so you can see the rest of the document if we show paragraph five you followed the standard reporting protocol with the two MPS or whoever has put put your yeah whoever did it
03:02:58 put put your yeah whoever did it formalized your report has done that yeah correct
03:03:10 um you then it appears from a reporting get properly stuck into infiltrating the swp and a feature of your early reporting is there's a batch of reports all about individuals is that what you were expected to do to I'd have to see
03:03:27 were expected to do to I'd have to see the reports okay well let's look at them um should we start with um c16 sir
03:03:45 28272 this is dated the 18th of um December 1991 it's uh again filed under your name it says that the person concerned was female British
03:04:00 female British unemployed associated with the Socialist Workers Party privacy Branch with a London accent over Leaf it says privacy
03:04:14 London accent over Leaf it says privacy is a sad case and as such epitomizes the party's unsavory recruitment policies regarding the ethnic communities and in particular persons of Afro Caribbean
03:04:25 particular persons of Afro Caribbean Heritage being institutionalized at an early age in various children's homes she has suffered intolerable levels of racism her measure of self-confidence is non-existent and she is prone to bouts
03:04:38 non-existent and she is prone to bouts of depression which is manifested in her extremely abrupt nature she attends every meeting and most functions but very rarely
03:04:49 very rarely participates um this person was very much Rank and file was she yeah absolutely why was it necessary to report that level of personal detail about her mental health because of what it says I mean on I
03:05:05 it says I mean on I felt that as I mentioned earlier on with David
03:05:07 David Copeland if she could well have been orientated we' C today groomed to the
03:05:20 orientated we' C today groomed to the negative and I wanted to make sure that that was known about her
03:05:32 um as you know I did some work on another organization before I joined as I said to no as I said to you so you understand and that taught me how that happened because that organization went
03:05:47 happened because that organization went on then to be something of great import and so that was the case absolutely utilized by the party could we go to tab 15 28271 this is another report on an
03:06:02 28271 this is another report on an individual filed on the same date a week before Christmas in
03:06:11 1991
03:06:19 um again female doctor Socialist Workers Party Clapton Branch there's a description then it says privacy is a member of the Clapton branch of swp she plays an active part in the party as an organizer and contact recruiting member
03:06:31 organizer and contact recruiting member for that Branch she has a caring manner which enables her to put new Associates
03:06:48 which enables her to put new Associates at ease privacy is very committed to the cause she another Rank and file well no she's as it as it says there um that she is a recruiting an organizer contact recruiting to put new associate at ease
03:07:09 recruiting to put new associate at ease so in my sense with that individual whom I don't know um or recall it would be a matter of this is somebody who's bringing people into the party understanding what the part is about of course is it still called War ER it could be cuz of of course not
03:07:22 ER it could be cuz of of course not probably just at the end of the Cold War but we still have the Cold War sentiment
03:07:24 sentiment um
03:07:25 um yeah could we now go to tab 17 please uh
03:07:48 28273 this is um another reporting individual another female uh this time employed by the London fire brigade firewoman also member of the Socialist Workers Party Hackney South Branch and there's a description again and then it
03:08:02 there's a description again and then it says privacy an active member of the swp is also very militant within her Trade union the fbu presently she is organizing activity on the Nightingale estate regarding the council's proposed uh 15 pound rent rise she's generally
03:08:18 uh 15 pound rent rise she's generally well respected within the branch mhm so again another member of the S swp and you're providing a brief description of what she does for the
03:08:29 what she does for the party yes and the fact that she's entryism into a Trade union and then if we go over to tab 21 28277
03:08:56 another individual report this time 5 days later the 23rd of December um this time we don't have to redact the name Rosie kwin female British uh teacher and lecturer Socialist Workers Party member there's a physical description and then it says Cohen who is a lecturer in
03:09:11 it says Cohen who is a lecturer in business studies at Hackney college is a well-respected member of the Hackney
03:09:21 well-respected member of the Hackney South Branch she lives in a counil owned property and therefore is active in the local WP organized anti- rent rise campaign so she's a member of the committee I am getting the impression that you might have been to an swp
03:09:32 that you might have been to an swp Christmas party or the like and you have met lots of members of the swp and reported on them uh no because uh the last person if I remember correctly is on the
03:09:44 on the committee the branch committee yeah had you met Rosie Cohen before you reported on her yeah yeah because I think you seen the other reports that I've
03:09:57 seen the other reports that I've mentioned she how did you meet on the branch committee I think we meet as early as December 1991 I think as I said timing dates but I think she's on the branch committee
03:10:08 I think she's on the branch committee and the the other three some of them are not um but what I'm doing is is basically look at the individuals who I feel in the party where I am who may well be um you know staunch
03:10:30 who may well be um you know staunch comrades and therefore May well be more um active the most this is very early days for you in thew yeah but I'm possibly still looking it is I'm possibly still looking at who's active and so I'm writing pen pictures of who's active I would suggest why are they all
03:10:45 women all these reports are all female there must be others that have men as well I'm guessing not that we've recovered in this time don't know why but I'm guessing there are reports on men later on I'm guessing there must be the same because I noticed on Associates I've placed various mail
03:11:09 names you you're reporting very shortly before Christmas then moves off in a different
03:11:13 different direction can we go to 33502 please tab c18 and you are reporting
03:11:28 and you are reporting substantively on the relaunch of the ANL MH that's that early is it what 1991 okay
03:11:34 okay yeah so if we look at that um 18th of December
03:11:40 December 1991 um submitted here with is a copy of party notes produced by the Socialist Workers Party for the weekending 9th of September 1991 the notes clearly
03:11:51 September 1991 the notes clearly identify the major projects of the past week and provide information on forthcoming activities and campaign trends of major interest this week is the relaunching of the anti-nazi league
03:12:04 the relaunching of the anti-nazi league under the leadership of the swp in this connection the party has issued a leaflet copy attached explaining to members what it will entail and if we go over the page page two
03:12:22 uh we see um under the heading anti-nazi League
03:12:31 relaunched we have to counter the rise of Nazism in Europe and prevent it getting a tow hold here the Leen protests and the reaction to our front page met with a real response we have decided to take the initiative by relaunching the anti-nazi league
03:12:42 relaunching the anti-nazi league enclosed as a circular that every comrade should read and act upon when it says we have decided to take the initiative by relaunching the
03:12:53 initiative by relaunching the anti-national league the anti-nazi league I get the impression that that is
03:13:05 league I get the impression that that is the swp are controlling this launch it's their body yeah um from the dates which you I noticed you immediately alighted on I think it follows that your recollection in your witness statement that the inl
03:13:21 relaunch was associated with the murder of Steven Lawrence must be mistaken because Steven Lawrence wasn't murdered until later yeah absolutely I said timings and and I'm surprised that it
03:13:37 timings and and I'm surprised that it was relaunched that uh that it was that quickly as I said to you before I was clearly on the on the on the dis on the district committee that for ANL later but on the branch committee I was clear
03:13:58 but on the branch committee I was clear on the banch committee which is why I'm being able to give the individuals and shortly after the relaunch of the ANL they want me to get on to the anls Committees um I was
03:14:02 um I was surprised it's that early but obviously there's a lot of activity going on and they are missing out and if we go to tab 19 28274
03:14:23 5 days later immediately Before Christmas on 1991 there's a report again filed under your name and if we could look at page paragraph two
03:14:34 paragraph two please information regarding the proposed relaunch of the anti-nazi league will be promoted in the national press early in the New Year the ANL is to be formed to combat Nazi action
03:14:51 to be formed to combat Nazi action before it can take a foothold in Britain in the way it is beginning to do so on the continent the Socialist Workers Party is expected to play a central role in the organization of the ANL um I won't read the rest of the report but it it's um goes into the
03:15:04 report but it it's um goes into the tactics that are going to be used for that my question is did this reporting
03:15:16 that my question is did this reporting on this event um stir any reaction from your managers in so faras was this regarded as a big deal
03:15:22 deal um yes and possibly even more so for the security service because the because they were still interested
03:15:35 the because they were still interested in subversion at that time just cold war um the red action split off from the anti-nazi league and they therefore closed the anti-nazi league because of its dangers to the Socialist Workers
03:15:50 its dangers to the Socialist Workers Party so for them to reorganize it meant that they were missing out on the board there's a there's a body called the uh AR if I remember correctly anti racist Alliance had formed and was getting a lot of traction amongst black
03:16:02 lot of traction amongst black people um straightforward organization very positive etc etc etc and I think that the anti-nazi league I might have even written a report on it somewhere the anti-nazi league wanted some of those
03:16:13 those people well the S swp wanted some of those people so they Rel launched and Nazi
03:16:19 Nazi League coming back to the history we've been through quite carefully of the way you've infiltrated lots of groups working in the anti-fascist
03:16:30 anti-fascist anti-racist arena was there any
03:16:45 arena was there any sense in the SDS at the time that this was a developing area which needed to have more cover the way that's put isn't correct what I infiltrated were organizations which had an anti-i an an
03:16:57 an anti-i an an anti-racist aspect to them it wasn't solely an anti-racist aspect every group in town wanted a piece of the anti-racist aspect because it's the
03:17:08 anti-racist aspect because it's the hottest game in town if you're the left wing if you were the right wing obviously it was perceived for them that's the way it was they're not just solely for many AR
03:17:22 was they're not just solely for many AR as I said was absolutely what it said on the team I take I take that point but was there a sense that this was just another Battlefield and needed to be infiltrated and needed to be looked at cuz they
03:17:34 and needed to be looked at cuz they weren't infiltrated they were just they were just basically looked at and that would be monitored from the desk I just provided the information whilst I was bouncing around thank you could we
03:17:52 bouncing around thank you could we digress now to back to another report on an individual this is tab uh 24 sir 28237 a report of the 10th of January again attributed to you
03:18:18 oh
03:18:23 28237
03:18:30 28327 thank
03:18:43 you um so this person is a doctor female doctor of medicine member of the Socialist Workers Party there's some physical this the same one we had on before was it it's not it's not the same report no it's a different report
03:18:56 report no it's a different report although a doctor um there are some very slight discrepancies in the um physical description I did wonder whether it was the same person or not um active member of North Hackney branch of s swp and as
03:19:11 of North Hackney branch of s swp and as such in her capacity as a senior Branch member she organized the branch Christmas party okay she is also active in contact meeting and recently
03:19:23 in contact meeting and recently introduced a new person to the branch same person is it I think it is yeah right okay uh if we
03:19:34 could sorry and could I have the report back up please thank you what I want to ask you about is under accent would appear to be an eastend jewish
03:19:47 jewish accent why was it necessary to report that somebody had a Jewish accent it would be no different than any other accent in terms of you'd report that it was a Scottish accent you'd say Scottish if it was a uh a Jamaican accent you'd
03:19:59 if it was a uh a Jamaican accent you'd say Jamaican or Barbadian accent you'd say Barbadian when you're doing reports what you're trying to do is orientate the individual that's how we are taught
03:20:12 the individual that's how we are taught in special Branch um and in the security service and in every other service that you can think about because you need to orientate individuals this is obviously before you had mobile phones etc etc and it's important to orientate who
03:20:24 it's important to orientate who individuals are and give any officer looking at it um the best information they can as to whether they've got the right person because we have just now
03:20:36 right person because we have just now had that problem is this the same person so what you do want is and it's an up to- dat I notice it said if you go down
03:20:47 to- dat I notice it said if you go down what you do want is to be able to really orientate the person I see and now that you can see that has been a branch Christmas
03:20:51 Christmas party did you go to the branch Christmas party I don't know I'm I'm assuming I did I may have even uh worked at the the branch Christmas party but
03:21:08 um don't know um you you did say you'd report it on men as well and if we go we go over the T 28185 the first report on a man 20th of January well the first report you have yeah first report we have 20th of January
03:21:30 1992 um again thank you um you're reporting this gentleman the bottom it says the subject is very slim his trousers hang limply from his hips yeah why is it necessary to exactly the same as I said before detail like that EXA identif so imagine if you've got surveillance team and you know the
03:21:42 surveillance team and you know the branch had several surveillance teams and you're looking at these people then they need to have those pointers that's what you're taught when you first joined the branch how you report thank you if
03:22:02 the branch how you report thank you if we could take that down um and look at some of the early reporting into the ANL um tab 26 uh
03:22:15 19905 this is a report when it comes up about a demon rtion on Saturday the 18th of January 1992 against the Asylum Bill That Was
03:22:29 1992 against the Asylum Bill That Was Then currently before Parliament it was an
03:22:31 an nus um demonstration but it says largely organized by the Socialist Workers Party could we go over the page please to paragraph six
03:22:49 this happy State of Affairs was marred only briefly by a minor incident of disorder at the Northern end of Park Lane W1 where a small group of national front supporters numbering only about
03:23:01 front supporters numbering only about half a dozen had congregated outside the grova hotel at the East side of par Lane securing the knowledge that the
03:23:13 securing the knowledge that the Detachment of the territorial support group were in the immediate vicinity these right-wing supporters shouted obscenities and displayed the Union Jack Flag and National front Publications to taunt the marches this succeeded in
03:23:24 taunt the marches this succeeded in provoking a number of the latter into crossing the central reservation in a half-hearted attack to the obvious
03:23:36 half-hearted attack to the obvious dismay of some members of red action and Dam the situation was quickly diffused by police in fact the swp organizers themselves had been urging the Marchers to continue and not render themselves
03:23:49 to continue and not render themselves liable to arrest thus conforming with their policy of opposing fascism and racism as National issues rather than targeting
03:23:56 targeting individuals is this a good example of how the S this is this is the swp policy isn't it is avoid the little fights
03:24:11 isn't it is avoid the little fights they've got a bigger battle to fight this is a Central Committee perspective it's not necessarily people for down the chain however
03:24:25 um taking on the rightwing is for most people something they don't want to do because the right Wingers are actually good at fighting and that's what they want to do so for
03:24:38 and that's what they want to do so for most people now I notic this is a swis that's a soci worker students organization um March and on those marches you tended to get people that weren't socialist
03:24:49 weren't socialist workers students who sometimes were willing to fight to be involved in combat um and so they could be different but if I say that you know whomever was leading it was saying carry on don't
03:25:04 leading it was saying carry on don't fight yeah that's what happened you know I'm not going to say something that didn't happen that's what happened I
03:25:17 didn't happen that's what happened I mean it is the S swp's relationship with public disorder is complicated isn't it extremely complicated um can we go please please to tab 3328
03:25:23 214 um this is a report on an
03:25:36 individual on Christopher is it NM yeah Chris NM
03:25:45 Chris NM yeah again identifying details but then it goes on to say NM of the Socialist Workers Party acted as a coordinator during the recent Mass leafleting campaign in the tower hamlets area it appeared as if he had good connections with s swp's Center and was responsible for anti-nazi League policy he stated
03:26:03 for anti-nazi League policy he stated that the ANL did not want to be seen as attacking the racist BMP in a physical manner but were anxious to entice away their potential recruits on the various Estates prone to BMP infiltration
03:26:23 Estates prone to BMP infiltration my first question is was it the basic tactic of the ANL to try and entice people away from the BMP correct uh could you have submitted this report so that it read the ANL did not
03:26:36 report so that it read the ANL did not want to attack racist British no I can say what the Central Committee say this is what I'm saying it's complicated and and that's not all the Central Committee so that there were
03:26:49 Central Committee so that there were some members of the Central Committee who wanted it differently but the policy was don't do
03:27:00 was don't do that different thing and in terms of writing did not want to be seen as well that's the point as well are you well are you saying it was the policy of the
03:27:11 policy of the swp that they were not to be seen as attacking or was it the policy that they were not to
03:27:22 attack I would suggest both the Central Committee is a Powerful Beast and that body directs what the branches
03:27:40 do however some at least one individual on the Central Committee was not so orientated and that had a different view on it and there were people also who been brought in who didn't have that view so it's trying to keep everybody happy and
03:27:59 trying to keep everybody happy and that's quite difficult because otherwise they go off to other groups who do want to
03:28:07 confront the one member of the Central Committee at that stage who wasn't on message if I put it that way um was that somebody who who you've named later in your statement correct Mr bambury
03:28:23 your statement correct Mr bambury correct who was a friend of mine by the way I I noticed that some people were saying you Chris B I liked very very
03:28:35 saying you Chris B I liked very very much and what was what was your level of knowledge and contact with Mr bamry at this stage in January 92
03:28:37 92 I can't recall exactly
03:28:46 exactly um it's very difficult for me me to recall
03:28:47 recall exactly
03:28:50 exactly uh because it's all swirling around uh the timings are swirling around so I I I can't say exactly what they and I don't want to say something about Chris at the time when I don't
03:29:07 about Chris at the time when I don't know so the timings are swirling around um Chris
03:29:10 um Chris nyam was a powerful individual in the party who I thought was ambiguous on the issue as I've mentioned here see okay we'll
03:29:29 as I've mentioned here see okay we'll come back to Mr banur later we can take that down now and can we go to tab 36 28265
03:29:46 um this is a report from the 18th of February again filed under your name if we could look at par paragraphs 2 and three please
03:29:55 mhm the undermentioned members of the Socialist Workers Party are presently involved in the leadership of the ANL Julie Waton National organizer privacy Ernie Roberts Treasurer ANL
03:30:06 privacy Ernie Roberts Treasurer ANL Christopher nyam musical event organizer Wayman Bennett actions I.E Mass leafleting coordinator Julie Waterson traveled to Rochdale over the weekend of
03:30:18 traveled to Rochdale over the weekend of the 14 to the 16th of February to attend a demonstration against a British national Party candidate selection meeting which was being held in a local
03:30:30 meeting which was being held in a local pub the swp estimates the rally brought together
03:30:34 together 600l activists these comrades were able to prevent the BNP from carrying out their business in fact they physically confronted the proposed candidate causing him to flee this activity is seen within the party of having been
03:30:49 seen within the party of having been superbly successful and has been hailed as a foretaste for the London demonstration intended to close the British national party headquarters in Welling on Saturday the 22nd of February
03:31:05 1992 can you recall whether you traveled to roale and I would have known Chris now when I'm seeing that date for the 1992 I would have known Chris previously I see right so uh no I wasn't there
03:31:21 I see right so uh no I wasn't there that's I think I got my recollection is I got that straight from the horse's mouth um so sorry from Julie
03:31:30 Waterson what did she tell you what was meant by physically confronting the proposed candidate those are the
03:31:42 words so you're not able to help I wasn't there so I can't I'm not going to say something I wasn't there uh if we take that down if we go please to T 38 28
03:32:04 267 this is a mention of the organization you mentioned earlier the anti-racist alliance which features quite a lot later on um 24th of February 1992 paragraph
03:32:27 two the struggle between the Socialist Workers Party anti-nazi League s swp ANL and the anti-racist alliance AR for the leading position in the battle against the Nazis is increasing in intensity the arra intend to hold a rally on the 2nd of March 1992 at Hackney town hall and
03:32:42 of March 1992 at Hackney town hall and all Hackney swp ANL black comrades will be directed to attend in an attempt to refuse the perception that the ANL is a white lead organization were you so
03:32:55 white lead organization were you so directed yeah and if we can go down to um paragraph four at a recent meeting some members of Hackney swp Express the fear that security is not being taken seriously
03:33:10 security is not being taken seriously enough privacy who recently was punched while fly posting ANL literature protested that to advertise the hawkton leafleting was a mistake and would bring the Nazis out to confront comrades with the inevitable
03:33:24 the inevitable repercussions in the end a close vote overall privacy but not before a compromise had been agreed in that the
03:33:35 compromise had been agreed in that the leaflet will not name hawkton but will give the meeting place as shaich Town Hall paragraph five the question of security also is being discussed at s swp Center in view of several attacks on S swp ANL activists since the Inception
03:33:49 S swp ANL activists since the Inception of the present ANL campaign the Hackney ANL caucus has discussed possible retaliation to these attacks and the
03:34:02 retaliation to these attacks and the general feeling was that they should not go unpunished it is doubtful however if their bravery will extend to physical confrontation and it's that last sentence I want to ask you about is it right that there were a lot of people uh who detested the BNP
03:34:16 who detested the BNP but put it bluntly we're not up for a physical fight yeah the frightened of
03:34:29 physical fight yeah the frightened of them and how common was that in the ANL and thew oh very common um and I think my reporting says that all the time which is why subsequently later on we come to the other
03:34:38 aspect can we go now to tab 45 please
03:34:46 28
03:34:50 323 this is a a report on Julie
03:35:12 werson uh and at the bottom the text at the bottom Julie is a hardworking aggressive and tenacious ious member of the party she has fought her way to the top of the organization and is attempting to prove her worth and
03:35:24 and is attempting to prove her worth and organizational skills as head of the ANL on the street in public order situations I.E demonstration marches and pickets she is seen as a general barracking and
03:35:37 she is seen as a general barracking and bullying her way through the proceedings she lives off aggression and has stamped
03:35:49 she lives off aggression and has stamped her Mark some say contrary to part party ideology on the ANL organization a former Hackney South member she presently lives with uh the Hackney South paper organizer privacy at the above
03:36:05 above address what was the basis for you characterizing Julie Waterson as aggressive my observations and could you help us with what factual observations you made on demonstrations how she was I think
03:36:16 demonstrations how she was I think that's that was a given and I think
03:36:24 um I know when um lindsy Germaine was here she said she's oh well she was Scottish I don't know what that meant but whatever it meant the reality is Julie was a very very strong
03:36:36 very strong individual and um as I said here positively very tenacious hardworking member when you
03:36:50 tenacious hardworking member when you say aggressive do you mean physically aggressive or verbally aggressive or some other form bits of both you know if you needed moving around on a pikit or whatever she would
03:37:07 around on a pikit or whatever she would physically move you around if you didn't move around right so yeah very strong did you ever see her in physical conflict with the police
03:37:24 no uh when you say uh that some were saying cont that her approach was contrary to party ideology can you help us with that yeah I mean generally you want to supposedly discuss most
03:37:39 want to supposedly discuss most things um whereas Julie was directing
03:37:56 so we're back to temperament are we thank you um could we take that down um whilst we're in this part of the chronology could we have up please tab 47 33279
03:38:19 you just familiarize yourself with it for a moment please
03:39:00 thank you um I want to ensure we're understanding this correctly but it appears to be a report gained by Word of Mouth
03:39:12 report gained by Word of Mouth indicating there's going to be a picket of the hamstad conservative Club where it was Bel believe Norman tbit and myth thater were going to be and that accordingly the special Branch Reserve
03:39:23 accordingly the special Branch Reserve were informed at 8:40 in the morning of a picket that was due to start on 10 at
03:39:36 a picket that was due to start on 10 at 10:15 a.m. is that understanding correct it's what I'm appearing to get from it yes yes or no please no what I'm getting from that is that's correct so no yes I've got that next question my next
03:39:53 I've got that next question my next question yes or no answer for this next question please uh Mr Morris is this your report that I can't
03:40:02 say thank you um if we could sorry where was it where was the actual demonstration again because I Hamstead conservative Club
03:40:15 Hamstead I'd be guessing I'd say I don't think it is because it's hamstad but I don't know thank you if we could take that down could we go now to
03:40:23 3714 tab B15
03:40:35 sir
03:40:39 30714 30714
03:41:02 this is a security service note for file arising from a liaison visit to the SDS which occurred on the 14th of April 1992 what I'm interested in showing you is the first of the gists which says hn
03:41:16 is the first of the gists which says hn 78 change of address 8 8 Mount Pleasant Road Tottenham mhm um can you recall moving to 88 Mount
03:41:27 um can you recall moving to 88 Mount Pleasant Road I know I know I went there but I can't recall making the actual move can you recall whether it occurred whether it was recent news in April 1992 or whether you'd move sometime before I
03:41:42 or whether you'd move sometime before I was just looking at the other chat just to see if that would give me a a position on it but
03:41:51 okay h90 it's terminated in
03:42:04 August it's terminated in
03:42:20 August I can't be sure okay I can't I would have thought it was earlier to be fair but can you help us with why you moved to
03:42:31 Tottenham I
03:42:38 think the premises that I was in yeah I'm gone
03:42:50 um yeah yeah I think what happened is I had effectively the premises that I was in to
03:42:51 in to myself and then if I can remember correctly the landlord was doing up
03:43:06 correctly the landlord was doing up rooms etc etc and he then said the rooms are already we're bringing other people in and I think he brought new people into the premises so that was no good for me so I I said I'll need to move and I think I was then directed to try
03:43:18 and I think I was then directed to try and move to Tottenham and why were you directed to move to Tottenham it might have been that that became more active I don't
03:43:27 don't know so would now be an appropriate moment to give the stenographer a well- earned break of course um 10 or 15 minutes 10's okay 10
03:43:44 minutes
03:56:13 e e
03:57:06 last leg for today I think indeed sir uh could we go please to document
03:57:10 3334 tab c68 sir
03:57:31 uh this is a report dated the 19th of June
03:57:33 June 1992 uh paragraph two the anti-nazi league has launched a financial appeal copy attached here with signed by Bernie Grant Arthur Scargill and Peter
03:57:47 Grant Arthur Scargill and Peter Hayne uh Socialist Workers Party believes that there is tremendous Goodwill towards the ANL and therefore that supporters will give generously when asked the ANL is in financial
03:58:00 when asked the ANL is in financial trouble and desperately needs more funds to build the movement one of the proposed fundraising activities is a special ANL music Al album to be
03:58:11 special ANL music Al album to be recorded within the next few weeks Tom Robinson and the rager twins amongst others are purported to be involved a special limited edition has been offered to comrades for £10 so Mr Morris a report about
03:58:27 report about fundraising that refers to two members of parliament why was it necessary to
03:58:39 of parliament why was it necessary to point out uh that um this fundraising appeal had the support of members of parliament completeness um it's pointless writing reports if you're not going to complete the report and from
03:58:52 going to complete the report and from this perspective here I don't think that even
03:58:56 even stands without you saying who's involved and who has an interest in it um which I've done and that again is what you're taught in the branch was the L's
03:59:13 taught in the branch was the L's finances of interest to special Branch the security service without finances you can't do and understanding those being important was the effectiveness of their fundraising correct and was
03:59:24 fundraising correct and was the Firepower if I put it the names behind the is important so you reported it for that reason correct thank you if
03:59:36 it for that reason correct thank you if we could take that down um could we have next tab 69 28161
03:59:59 this is a report uh dated the 4th of July
04:00:01 July 1992 about the ANL and specifically about a demonstration against David
04:00:12 about a demonstration against David Irving reads numbers likely attend while some branches of thew P have been asked to provide a maximum of six persons per Branch others are only being asked to support this event but without obligation and with no number quota
04:00:24 obligation and with no number quota stipulated therefore it is anticipated that the swp presence will be of a token nature numbers attending from other organizations are less easily
04:00:40 organizations are less easily assessed at the bottom the swp will not be disrupting their normal paper sales to enable their members to attend this event but those who choose to go are recommended to purchase a travel card in the hope that they may learn the venue
04:00:57 the hope that they may learn the venue of Irving's speech AR may include among their supporters three members of parliament Glenn Ford Jeremy Corbin and Alice
04:01:08 Alice manah if I've understood your evidence from earlier you've described the anti-racist alliance in very different ter terms to the swp not a
04:01:24 ter terms to the swp not a threat um no not a threat in well again from my perspective from how I saw the organization not a threat there was entry entryism into that organization I do know some individuals but yeah excuse
04:01:44 do know some individuals but yeah excuse me but um from my perspective not um but of course as you know we spoke in the meetings and I know that the Y were attempting to put people in the in that
04:01:53 in that organization um why report uh on specifically on the fact that members of parliament were going to be supporting an organization like the a
04:02:10 supporting an organization like the a once again it shows you the completeness of that organization and it gives you a feel to that or organization in terms of how it differs from the ANL and whom they've got suppor in them from my
04:02:21 they've got suppor in them from my perspective see a lot of these things you see me reporting on doesn't mean to say that I'm not in agreement with them I just I do my job and Report the the fact is but that organization as I
04:02:32 fact is but that organization as I perceived it um you know went out to do
04:02:44 perceived it um you know went out to do a job of preventing racism with no other agenda but there were others trying to get inside it who had a different agenda but because it was a victim of
04:02:56 agenda but because it was a victim of entryism it was of interest to those you were serving correct if to the state I mean I'm not serving them blinded to the to to the state of the United Kingdom yeah you know that's that's it uh
04:03:13 yeah you know that's that's it uh mpsb in particular mpsp security service if we could take that down now please and go to tap 94
04:03:31 33341 and uh if we could have uh the next page
04:03:37 next page please this is a report dated the 14th of September 1992 and if we have paragraph uh two
04:03:48 says although it is the intention of the Socialist Workers Party to broaden its participation in the anti-nazi league it would appear that in practice this relates only to the lower echelons of
04:03:59 relates only to the lower echelons of the organization the policy of the swp Central Committee is to confine its relationship to individual meetings between Julie Waton and Peter Hayne
04:04:10 between Julie Waton and Peter Hayne usually on a bi-weekly basis but more frequently if occasion demands to discuss the ANL and agree a strategy apparently decisions are reached very
04:04:22 apparently decisions are reached very quickly and sometimes even without prior consultation albeit in the spirit of previous agreements it must be stressed that the direction to be taken by the
04:04:41 that the direction to be taken by the ANL is determined as a result of a joint decision can you help first of all with how you got this intelligence please I don't know um can you help as to your understanding is your understanding that this is
04:04:55 understanding that this is accurate I think it's accurate because otherwise I wouldn't have reported it I I probably even got it from the horse's mouth or close to
04:05:06 horse's mouth or close to it is is what I can say on that I I wasn't in any
04:05:14 um I was in no way shape or means used to or would I orientate to put something on paper that I didn't think was correct so if that would have been given to me I
04:05:28 so if that would have been given to me I would have thought that's probably about right but I can't remember writing that report to be fair and
04:05:36 fair and if decisions are being taken jointly between Julie Waton and Peter Hayne Peter Hayne at the time was a member ofl and a member M of parliament is that right correct but not a member of the
04:05:51 right correct but not a member of the swp oh no no no no as far as I knew he wasn't are you reporting on Peter hayne's activities here because he's ANL because he's uh talking to the swp or
04:06:04 because he's uh talking to the swp or for some other reason because if this is true I'm reporting on it because he's making decisions as to the direction of the ANL
04:06:16 in conjunction with J the wat if this is correct and assuming it is correct um it shows doesn't it that the ANL is not a wholly owned subsidiary of
04:06:30 ANL is not a wholly owned subsidiary of the swp no it doesn't that doesn't stand it's a holy un subsidiary s swp which realized and this is why I would have written that report if I did which realized they needed something like the Firepower of
04:06:41 Firepower of AR so you know they'd be coopting Peter ha rather than the other way around did you see what I mean I
04:06:54 mean I mean it's certainly right that there are a lot of people who are members of the ANL but who are not members of the swp but this report is referring to decision making isn't it about the
04:07:09 decision making isn't it about the direction of the ANL corre correct once you've got somebody like Peter Hayne making joint decisions with Julie Waton it can't be right that the swp is wholly controlling
04:07:22 right that the swp is wholly controlling the ANL can it yes it can because that's what you are being told it doesn't mean to say Peter hay Hayne would have not have been there on day to day on how the
04:07:34 have been there on day to day on how the anti-nazi league worked he may well have said this is how I would like for the anti-nazi league to work but what it does on the ground is a completely different thing so what I'm saying is is that he they may have been able to get the Firepower of Peter Hayne may have
04:07:48 the Firepower of Peter Hayne may have and it's a may but it looks as though from what I'm reporting here she's already made the decisions by the Central Committee of where it's going anyway and he's kind of agreeing to it if I read this correctly and I cannot
04:08:02 it if I read this correctly and I cannot remember I wish I could whether that was my
04:08:06 my report okay if we could take that down now please i' just like to ask you a little bit about your own role within the ANL
04:08:14 the ANL we know that you are a
04:08:26 we know that you are a member were you rank and file or were you more than that I was an organizer East London organizer
04:08:27 organizer was that a specific official title obviously in the party of
04:08:39 title obviously in the party of volunteers but I was an organizer and I think um that was articulated by um Jenny that I was an organizer in the uh ANL she said that you were Rank
04:08:56 the uh ANL she said that you were Rank and file and saw yourself as such no I think you're fine that she said that they wanted to co-op to me to work within the ANL and that she said I is it Jenny R yeah Jenny and that I be said I was Rank and fail which I think she
04:09:08 was Rank and fail which I think she doesn't know so she's it's incorrect I know what I was doing there and they had me talking in universities etc etc
04:09:20 etc so what and there should be some reports to that effect that I was I think if I can remember correctly one of them
04:09:28 them was in IP switch or somewhere like that and then another one was down
04:09:36 in Chelmsford or something like that I was I was speaking for them all over the place um onl matters and obviously in Hackney and around Hackney and around Tottenham and around that area so
04:09:47 Tottenham and around that area so what putting labels to one side what were you actually doing speaking Arrangements attending demonstration attending
04:09:56 attending demonstrations um organizing if you look on the marching Welling example I think you see and I can't see where the picture is I think it's myself and Chris Bamber at the front of the March locking arms as as
04:10:10 March locking arms as as stewards some stewarding
04:10:17 what else were you doing for the um probably moving stuff around in my vehicle um it's a very delicate line because I refused aspects and I think that was also articulated by some
04:10:33 that was also articulated by some because what you don't want to do is be somebody who's organizing everything because that's pointless that's that's you progressing an organization so
04:10:45 organization so reluctantly I was involved as I was in the branch committee
04:10:58 example um my very loyal junior is pointing out that I was right it was it was Jenny who said I don't remember him saying why he was reluctant to do so but I think he saw himself as a more Rank and file person oh that's what she's
04:11:11 and file person oh that's what she's saying she didn't say I was Rank and file she said he sees himself as some more that's what I wanted to be of course different thing but of course
04:11:22 course different thing but of course they wanted me to do the opposite right so that's that's that is the jst the position and were you involved in when there were demonstrations and other events motivating people to turn out to them or were you being motivated by
04:11:36 them or were you being motivated by others to turn I was motivating people to turn out to them sorry I was delegated to motivate people to turn out to them example they asked me to go to broadw B A Farm I remember thisly sub
04:11:51 broadw B A Farm I remember thisly sub totally correctly to organize people for the well in demonstration because they fought they'd be militant I see um thank you can we move now away from the ANL back to the
04:12:08 back to the swp can we go to tab c54 28339 please
04:12:26 now this is a report dated the 1st of May
04:12:28 May 1992 uh paragraph two reads at a recent meeting of delegates held in Manchester the Socialist Workers Party swp has been
04:12:40 Socialist Workers Party swp has been able to secure a seat on the union of Jewish students UJS Central Committee the Socialist Workers Party and
04:12:54 the Socialist Workers Party and Socialist Workers student Society put forward three candidates who were vigorously contested by the UJS chairwoman she had previously stated that the swp was anti-semitic although
04:13:05 that the swp was anti-semitic although she was forced to retract this after an open letter from channy Rosenberg the
04:13:15 open letter from channy Rosenberg the swp Founder's Jewish wife condemned her statement as that of a mere youth who unlike her had not lived through the Holocaust viewed in this light the successful candidature of one comrade is hailed as a great
04:13:29 hailed as a great success now accepting what you've said about the wide net that you were required to
04:13:36 cast is are the Affairs of the Union of Jewish
04:13:41 Jewish students really necessary absolutely yeah yeah
04:13:43 yeah yeah you see the way we're discussing now about the ANL and whether that's s swp or not is exactly the same entryism that the scwp did everywhere you try and get
04:14:01 the scwp did everywhere you try and get people into the party into the conflict into the whatever it might be and then you try and influence how that functions so that is what I was reporting on here
04:14:16 so that is what I was reporting on here I think I've got to say because I don't remember it as a second
04:14:29 tier a second tier of what yeah because I don't think I was there that's what I'm saying I I've got that from some from somebody I understand now one understands that if uh a militant organization is infiltrating say the national Union of Mine Workers which has the power
04:14:46 Mine Workers which has the power considerable industrial muscle that may be one thing but the union of Jewish students has considerable muscle as well what muscle did you I mean do you are we going into red area well because I I was on the I was I was on the
04:15:00 I I was on the I was I was on the Israeli section of special Branch well I don't I don't want you to go you don't want me to go there I don't want you to go into any Middle Eastern issues so it's not Middle Eastern when you say Israeli section that also includes the diaspora but okay we'll leave it
04:15:17 diaspora but okay we'll leave it there um okay uh we take that down please and can we go to tab c72
04:15:36 28165 um this is a report dated the 6th of July
04:15:46 1992 uh the Socialist Workers Party has agreed to support the committee formed to defend members of osc the Greek socialists who are on trial for upholding claims for Macedonian Independence in its request for more recognition for its organization the
04:15:59 recognition for its organization the committee is supported already by the fbu and by Tony Ben why was it necessary to report that Tony Ben was
04:16:10 Tony Ben was supporting the OS SE members isn't surely the interest is simply that the swp are supporting
04:16:23 them again I
04:16:34 mean the special banch is a national security organization that doesn't slide away from the fact that an MP is involved in something I mean it's it's you just report what there is that doesn't mean to say that anything's going to happen
04:16:46 to say that anything's going to happen anything's going to go anywhere it means that the desk officer has got some knowledge and needs to have the knowledge of what's what how's happening where it's going on what the background might be etc etc and as a desk officer
04:16:58 might be etc etc and as a desk officer when I was working such desks I'd Hoover that up and see what I can use and what I can't use and the security service desk officers will do exactly the same and not withstanding the fact that Mr Ben was a member of parli not withstanding the fact that Mr Ben is a member of
04:17:10 member of parament could we take that down please and have up uh tab 93
04:17:29 28200 uh this we're now moving to the event that came to be known as the Battle of waterl uh this is the 12th of September the event was on the 12th of September
04:17:39 September 1992 this is a report from the day before it reads the leadership of the Socialist Workers Party has directed that members of the North and East
04:17:50 that members of the North and East London branches of the swp and the anti-nazi league are to attend waterl station to confront neo-nazis and skin heads members have been instructed to
04:18:03 heads members have been instructed to meet at 4:30 p.m. in the main Concourse near the cinema and have been strictly warned that they are to take orders from Julie Waton and from no other person
04:18:16 Julie Waton and from no other person there are no plans by the S swp ANL to attend the eventual venue of this concert it is known that the majority of s swp ANL members are apprehensive at the thought of physical confrontation and this may be reflected in a low
04:18:37 and this may be reflected in a low turnout can I ask how did you get the information that people had been strictly warned to take orders from Julie Waton and no other as I said I was
04:18:48 Julie Waton and no other as I said I was an organizer of the ANL I would have got that information from either Julie herself or it would have come down to me what
04:18:57 me what was were you told why this instruction was being given I think that can I see the date again but I'm sh of feeling
04:19:13 the date again but I'm sh of feeling it's the 11th it's um this report is the 11th of September the event is on the 12th
04:19:15 12th yeah it's this massive fear of the red action split happening again and I'm and I when I the reason why I
04:19:29 and I'm and I when I the reason why I reported that when I got that I got the feel that she had either heard or been informed that some others wished to act
04:19:44 differently you words wish to confront that's did you were you privy to any of the information about members of the swp or ANL wanting to do that I
04:19:55 of the swp or ANL wanting to do that I was at one stage contacted by bambur um about there being um I put many reports on it I mean about for this event for
04:20:07 on it I mean about for this event for that I can't remember exactly for that event but I think it's around all this era where people are saying something's got to be
04:20:14 got to be done okay
04:20:21 done okay um did you attend on the 12th I'm pretty sure I did and and I think I put the report out there because I think that in the office they thought it might be even bigger than what it actually was I mean
04:20:37 bigger than what it actually was I mean it was big enough don't get me wrong in terms of in a train station but bigger than what it actually was uh we don't have a report for the day itself we've
04:20:48 have a report for the day itself we've got a report report for afterwards which we'll come to in a moment but before we do that since you are there can I ask you how did the S swp and
04:21:00 you how did the S swp and ANL themselves behave on that I can't say unless I wrote it down I cannot excuse me sorry unless I already it down I cannot remember I'd be it's things that I know happen so i' I'd be
04:21:14 I know happen so i' I'd be adding something to it that I don't really you know subsequently i' be adding something to it that I don't know on the day okay well can we take that document down now and could we have up
04:21:26 28205 tab
04:21:42 97 this is um a report dated the 18th of September you can see that from the bottom left about the event on the 12th it says um events on the 12th of
04:21:54 it says um events on the 12th of September took the ANL swp leadership by surprise they now regard it as a miscalculation that they did not mobilize greater opposition to the screwdriver gig and present a higher profile on the day prior to the demonstration the
04:22:08 demonstration the anlp were of the opinion that the gig was of no political significance and merely an excuse for anti-fascist action to have a fight it was only when widespread publicity was given to the anticipated confrontation that some
04:22:20 anticipated confrontation that some members were directed to attend at this time there is no intention among swp or ANL leaders to abandon their policy
04:22:31 ANL leaders to abandon their policy against violence but efforts to generate more mass actions will be redoubled does that final paragraph accurately State the day facto policy that chimes
04:22:46 State the day facto policy that chimes with what I was just saying that would be the
04:22:55 be the policy um why did the swp ANL want a presence at an event where the understanding was the AFA were going for a
04:23:03 a fight if
04:23:09 if if you don't the perspective of of of the overall view if if you don't be there if you're not present there and others are
04:23:26 you're not present there and others are there and take the glory for being there you're missing out so you have to be there
04:23:28 there so that's why we were very keen at always swelling our numbers with other individuals from other organizations to show that def fact and what we do at the
04:23:43 show that def fact and what we do at the demonstration we I'm still thinking like at demonstrations is hand out the lollipops or the swp blackards to everybody we could so it looked as a we massed it you see this is what you're trying to do create this idea that s swp
04:24:04 trying to do create this idea that s swp is the anls are is that it's a mass oper organization now if something like that happens and we weren't the ones who dealt with it that's a negative see uh could we take that down could we move to a different topic Al
04:24:15 could we move to a different topic Al together Malcolm X rallies um first of all tab
04:24:17 all tab 7528
04:24:45 313 this is um 13th of July 1992 the swp believe that interest in Malcolm X is increasing due to the recent Los Angeles riots and the forthcoming film about him schedu to open in this country in the Autumn
04:24:56 open in this country in the Autumn additionally it is planning to publicize s swp member Kevin endon's new book titled Malcolm X socialism and black nationalism in a manner designed to
04:25:07 nationalism in a manner designed to attract black people to the party the following series of rallies has been planned involving Arma chalki from from the swp's sister Party in the USA and
04:25:21 the swp's sister Party in the USA and the international socialist organization and the book's author and then it gives tour dates for Birmingham leads Manchester London and Bristol um hope planned venues are shown on the attached leaflet advertising the events host area s swp branches are
04:25:33 events host area s swp branches are expected to arrange transport to Target schools and youth clubs and get publicity through radio stations newspapers or concerts particularly those serving the black community with a view to obtaining support black swp
04:25:46 view to obtaining support black swp members have been particularly warned to become fully involved in the project were you so warned yep uh and over and above was there anything over and above
04:26:01 above was there anything over and above the general requirement to report on all things swp that caused you to report this yeah because there's a there was an actual uh interest in attempting to recreate the rights in the United
04:26:16 recreate the rights in the United Kingdom and how big a deal were the Los Angeles riots in swp circles at that time big deal that's why we brought in um um Bobby seal to speak you from the Black Panther moov for self-defense in
04:26:31 Black Panther moov for self-defense in the 60s so he was brought in to speak at Marxism I mean this was something that was trying to be created perhaps the next document will help develop um this issue 28204 please
04:27:00 this is a report about an event on the 12th of September 1992 at po Square noting hill part of the Malcolm X rally it says this meeting was the last in a series of seven rallies held
04:27:12 in a series of seven rallies held throughout the UK to promote Kevin oven book Malcolm X socialism and black nationalism since the first rally in Tottenham on the
04:27:41 six
05:15:07 e e
05:15:52 for once a false alarm and there is no resulting
05:16:00 resulting order Mr Morris um did you ever hear uh a
05:16:05 a suggestion that special Branch might have been providing informally information to the private
05:16:21 informally information to the private sector about people who were associated with extreme left political groups no could we now have up
05:16:25 33830 tab c132
05:16:47 this is a briefing note um about the involvement and influence of far-left groups in
05:16:49 groups in industrial disputes and it goes on at paragraph one to say this paper deals with the Socialist Workers parties's influence
05:17:02 Socialist Workers parties's influence and involvement in the growing number of current and anticipated industrial disputes intelligence contained in this briefing note has been obtained from
05:17:13 briefing note has been obtained from Secret and reliable sources which must be protected so it's understood be before we go further that there are multiple sources to this report it's a long report I'm interested in the conclusion page seven please paragraph
05:17:40 19 the conclusion is the swp is deeply involved in a wide range of industrial disputes and issues but in an opportunistic way the degree of influence which the party holds varies according to the strength of local activity but there is no evidence to
05:17:55 activity but there is no evidence to suggest that it is capable of directing a trade dispute at National or even Regional level the party will attempt to agitate for industrial action wherever possible and feasible s swp members May
05:18:13 possible and feasible s swp members May swell numbers at what would otherwise be small and quiet protests individual members as recent events have demonstrated are prepared to be arrested and collectively will engage in sitd downs and similar forms of Civil Disobedience s swp leaders May provoke
05:18:26 Disobedience s swp leaders May provoke others present into action but generally
05:18:38 others present into action but generally the organization does not pose a serious threat to public order the swp takes a view that it in itself is neither big enough nor powerful enough to take the lead but that a few well-placed and
05:18:50 lead but that a few well-placed and committed socialists may be enough to tip the
05:18:59 tip the balance uh starting first of all uh with the conclusion there is no evidence to suggest that it is capable of directing a trade dispute at National or even Regional level was that your experience of the swp I
05:19:18 was that your experience of the swp I would guess that's about right and then the explanation of the nuanced explanation of how the swp might get involved in
05:19:29 swp might get involved in disputes and uh how it is not generally a serious threat to public order does that Accord with your uh experience of the swp I think that needs to be more
05:19:40 to be more nuanced and and and even where I say that um that's about right on the first aspect which you spoke about um it depends on the role of the S swp member
05:19:54 depends on the role of the S swp member so yes by themselves they couldn't do it but if you had let's say the head of the Union was an S swp member then yeah you would have some power to maybe make
05:20:06 would have some power to maybe make things happen so that's what I'm saying there so I'm I'm I'm putting that as a caveat on the last bit the threat was is to public order um as a general rule the threat from the swp in public
05:20:23 threat from the swp in public order was the fact that they would bring the masses for masses in terms of a demonstration to the demonstration and wherever possible um they would want those individuals that were not s swp to be um
05:20:43 individuals that were not s swp to be um Ang and I think it was said militant was the word used by Lindsay German I think the other
05:20:51 the other day thank you if we could take that down now and could we have up uh 33975 tab
05:20:58 [Music] c152 this is a a report on Marxism 93 and we've got on page one there the Security Services consumer comments
05:21:16 Security Services consumer comments bottom left uh the check box marking described it as extremely valuable the text says thank you for this full and excellent report
05:21:30 you for this full and excellent report of particular interest were the sections on membership industry and particularly the party
05:21:36 the party leadership could we move to page three please in paragraph three
05:21:49 most of those attending the various meetings represented the same class and ethnic origin as the bulk of the swp I.E white middle class about 10% of the
05:22:00 white middle class about 10% of the participants were black or Asian 2/3 seem to be in the 18 to3 age group the remaining third being older why
05:22:22 older why were race age and class being reported on uh they weren't what was being reported on is a makeup of the S swp and what we know is is their attempt to
05:22:34 to work and obtain more people of color into those into that organization and utilize I think it was put to me once that they black people were better equipped to be the Vanguard of the
05:22:46 to be the Vanguard of the Revolution yeah because they're angry right that's how it was put to me so it is of import to note that that's the
05:22:58 is of import to note that that's the perception the for Asian people people of Asian Heritage and you know we're talking of Heritage rather than that
05:23:09 talking of Heritage rather than that British people what they were basically saying with that was that um excuse me was that um again the isolation and the feeling of
05:23:30 isolation and the feeling of being lesser than was again a positive aspect which AIDS individuals to understand the Revolutionary perspective class absolutely matters um they want it to be working class but the reality is that it's middle class because frankly
05:23:45 that it's middle class because frankly let's be absolutely truthful about it it would be easier for the rightwing to pick up on working class than it is for the s
05:23:56 swp age is a fact because again you want to assess whether people are just going through a process
05:24:09 people are just going through a process you know I'm young going through process see what's going on which could also be negative as well in another way because you might want to be more active but the older you get the more tied to the
05:24:20 older you get the more tied to the system you are and the more committed you potentially are to the way the organization
05:24:26 thinks could we take that down now and could we have 34066 up please tab 155
05:24:43 this is uh a report that followed shortly
05:24:48 shortly afterwards about the leadership of the swp postm Marxism
05:25:01 swp postm Marxism 93 um again we can see on the first page the consumer comments reg regard it as extremely valuable go to page two paragraph two please says this report deals with the leadership of the Socialist Workers Party WP postm Marxism 93 if you could go to page
05:25:16 three and there are a number of
05:25:25 um could I have the next page please number of
05:25:29 number of individuals reported on there can I ask you first of all about Lindsay German respected for her grasp of Politics as well as her not insignificant oratorical skill
05:25:41 skill her support comes mostly from those of the same gender or those particularly concerned with women's matters a subject on which she is formidable I'm taking it from your
05:25:52 formidable I'm taking it from your earlier evidence that you followed lindsy German's evidence um and you will have heard Dr German say that she thought that her
05:26:05 German say that she thought that her support was from a broader base or words to that effect uh what do you have to say I disagree I stand like whatever
05:26:12 you paint a picture of her having really quite a niche no not a niche Niche support not not need support that that I wouldn't say but as I State here I would say that that obviously has she's very
05:26:31 say that that obviously has she's very capable and as I said her support comes mostly from those of the same gender that's just a fact would you pigeon ho holding a as a woman why would
05:26:42 woman why would I I didn't pigeon Hall um Julie Waterson example could we um now have the paragraph on Chris bam uh expand it
05:26:57 please bamber's speaking skills have improved to such a degree that most comrades now see him as a useful recruiting tool able to influence the masses by the sheer weight of his
05:27:09 masses by the sheer weight of his oratory knowing that his grasp of theory has been considered suspect by his comrades in the past he has made strenuous efforts to improve it and written several pamphlets in an attempt to prove it some of the more intellectual members see bambrey as a
05:27:23 intellectual members see bambrey as a future joint leader whilst yet others favor him as the outright leader originally adopted onto the Central Committee because of his undoubted skill as an organizer of Grassroots activity it is in this area that bambur believes
05:27:38 it is in this area that bambur believes his talents are best developed following the martial Endeavors of Trotsky uh could you help us with what you meant when you said that bambury
05:27:51 you meant when you said that bambury wished to develop his talent following the Marshal Endeavors of
05:28:04 trosky he was a fan of trosy he was a fan of how trosky functioned within the party at the time and
05:28:12 time and he you know same way as people have people that they find are what should I say
05:28:23 are what should I say um has influenced their life then bambur felt Trotsky was that individual uh why in particular the Marshall Endeavors because Trotsky obviously was the leader of the Red
05:28:34 obviously was the leader of the Red Army but leading the Red Army doesn't Translate very well into the swp in 19 the early 1990s but it might have been
05:28:47 the early 1990s but it might have been if Chris would have had his way that's the difference were you
05:28:53 intending was there any connection here with Street activity or were you alluding to the day of the Revolution I'm alluding to Street activity and and
05:29:05 I'm alluding to Street activity and and to be fair to the day of the Revolution if it were ever to come
05:29:12 um thank you can we take that down now please we'll come back to Mr bamry um later can we have up finally for today sir if you are content
05:29:28 33012 let's tab c161
05:29:41 this is a report dated the 14 24th of September
05:29:46 September 1993 Reed submitted here with a copies of leaflets and circulars recently dispatched to Branch secretaries of the Socialist Workers Party s swp which have
05:29:58 Socialist Workers Party s swp which have been received from a secret and reliable source they relate to the present revolutionary intentions being planned by that organization if we could go to page two please
05:30:13 and I'm I'm interested in just the first couple of
05:30:16 couple of paragraphs dear comrade imagine the firefighters the teachers the council workers the civil servants College lecturers nurses manual workers staging a winter of
05:30:30 a winter of discontent imagine all the leaflets posters placards we would have to produce think of all the extra copies of socialist worker we would need try and guess the extra number of phone calls
05:30:45 guess the extra number of phone calls the center would have to make a public sector pay Revolt would provide massive opportunities for the swp to grow in numbers and
05:30:58 swp to grow in numbers and influence provided we have the money that's why re-registration is so important am I right that the context for this leaflet was the S swp was struggling to get it its members ERS to
05:31:16 struggling to get it its members ERS to re-register and make Financial donations to the party the S swp was sheld on money
05:31:23 money um I'd suggest they probably needed more than just re-registration but of course that's the beginning and as I said before without money you can't do anything against that context the sentiment a public sector pay Revolt
05:31:35 sentiment a public sector pay Revolt would provide massive opportunities for the swp to grow in numbers influence they're just painting the picture that if that were to happen they wouldn't they wouldn't uh be capable as
05:31:51 wouldn't they wouldn't uh be capable as it sits at present to take advantage of that circumstance but if they had the funds then they would be able to and that is something they would dearly wish to do yeah thank you sir I'm about to
05:32:05 to do yeah thank you sir I'm about to move on to a completely different topic uh is is this a good time to stop it would indeed be um you have had the fairly long day today I'm afraid you're going to have an even longer one tomorrow but um all being well your evidence will finish on Friday thank you very
05:32:17 very much we'll resume at 10:
05:32:36 tomorrow
05:33:06 e for