Peter Francis (HN43) delivers detailed testimony about racist culture in SDS, tasking to undermine Lawrence campaign, and dead child identity practices. He reveals HN86 gave racist instructions, sought intelligence to smear family, and obtained visitor list from family liaison officer. Francis confirms 'no evidence' claim against Dwayne Brooks and details decision to stop using dead children's identities (operational security only, not ethics).
00:31:10 This afternoon's proceedings are going to be uh broadcast, but only after a 10-minute delay. Those with mobile devices uh may use them to report what they've heard in the hearing room, but only uh after 10 minutes have elapsed
00:31:23 only uh after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're reporting. Uh I'm asked to announce and I do that this evening uh the inquiry will publish
00:31:35 this evening uh the inquiry will publish the witness statements of HN43 and HN81. Mr.
00:31:48 Just one question to follow up from this morning's session about Dwayne Brooks. As to the best of your knowledge, did HN86 have any evidence at all that Dwayne Brooks was involved in drug dealing?
00:32:01 dealing? None whatsoever. And if we would have had any, I can absolutely guarantee it would have made its way to the media. just if I'm allowed to add something
00:32:10 just if I'm allowed to add something else into with regards to Dwayne when I was giving uh my evidence I was became quite emotional about it. I've got to say the reason I became emotional is because I actually felt that about Dwayne and uh I I've got to apologize. is something I've spent many years thinking about and I when the word
00:32:21 thinking about and I when the word chicken was being used and all that lot if I go back to that period of time I've got to say uh it's a sticking point for me I had it for quite a while is the inability to understand who I was and
00:32:40 inability to understand who I was and what I had is when I was aware of Dwayne he left his best friend and ran away so at the time I had my best friend in my vision and I wouldn't going to let him go down that way. But I had been doing martial arts since the age of 12. It's
00:32:55 martial arts since the age of 12. It's taken me a long long time to appreciate that uh I'm very different. I have I still have issues. I always think people should be able to do their best type thing. But one of my many many faults, numerous of them, is that I always think
00:33:10 numerous of them, is that I always think somebody should do as good as me. And uh so the reason I got emotional about it is because I literally equate that incorrectly what I was going to do and and you mentioned H81. What I would just like to say is uh I went over this
00:33:24 like to say is uh I went over this lunchtime. Uh the inquiries provided me a counselor to be here. I suffer from CPTTSD. I have moments hard moments. I had a counselor here. So uh you you really have to come to this inquiry.
00:33:44 Um, and in terms of what Dwayne Brooks did or didn't do, yes,
00:33:51 yes, in the agony of the moment, obviously you're weren't a witness to that and people should defer to the Steven Lawrence inquiries findings, shouldn't they?
00:33:56 they? Yes, they certainly should.
00:34:06 Can I resume going through personalities within the SDS with a view to whether or not you ever heard or saw them being racist? DCI Keith Edmonson. Sorry, just it's really nice being warm. It's
00:34:18 it's really nice being warm. It's normally cold and all. I'm actually quite pleased being warm. DCI Edmonson. No, I never heard him saying anything racist at all. DCI
00:34:27 DCI HN58.
00:34:36 He was a very very short time uh on the unit. So I can't really We're literally talking a week, two weeks. So in that very very short time, no, but I can't comment about him longer term. I never wor before either. DI HN67.
00:34:49 DI HN67. Uh
00:34:52 Uh yeah. No, that's interesting.
00:35:06 No, but he was certainly uh privy to some of the conversation with H86 and he didn't say anything or intervene or say anything. But no, I never heard him himself.
00:35:08 himself. Di Lambert, not the slightest. Not the slightest. Bob um very anti- anti-racist. Nothing
00:35:19 Bob um very anti- anti-racist. Nothing in the slightest. He's Yeah, he's very um I don't know. Bob Bob's different level. Yeah, Bob was very um he fit into modern day policing quite well. So, he was very not racist at all.
00:35:30 was very not racist at all. Sergeant John Webb. Oh, no. No, not not either. No. Sergeant Mintosh. Nope. S
00:35:38 Nope. S Sergeant War.
00:35:54 He was definitely more of a lad's character, but did I ever hear him say anything racist? No, I don't believe I did.
00:36:00 did. Sergeant Greeny didn't didn't cross my path from the SDS. I'd worked with him previously on B Squad, but not the SDS.
00:36:15 Squad, but not the SDS. Is it right that your entire chain of command from sergeant through to commissioner were white? Were
00:36:16 Were white?
00:36:17 white? Absolutely. And no women either. How did that affect the culture?
00:36:32 Yes, it certainly made it um a more of a lad culture. That's my own feeling. I would add another layer into it. The actual worst ones uh were the rugger the rugger buggers we used to call them in the special branch. So there was a diff there's once again no no offense to
00:36:46 there's once again no no offense to rugby player type things but there was definitely more of a a rugger type attitude uh which uh came through.
00:37:03 I asked you some questions earlier about HN86 and Dwayne Brooks. Can I now ask you about other people and Dwayne Brooks?
00:37:08 Brooks? Did other people speak ill of him in the SDS?
00:37:20 SDS? I think there was a collective ill feeling about him um through the circumstances what I described. I I think the police um was certainly uh quite a macho culture and I think this whole thing about him
00:37:30 about him uh running away like you say for reasons that we're aware of. Um that that that was
00:37:41 aware of. Um that that that was definitely evident through there. Um the feeling that he was
00:37:52 bad possibly, you know, bordering on even maybe deserved it as opposed to the good kid. Uh that that was that was evident in some of the conversations uh post when I was in the SDS as well post the murder.
00:38:03 the murder. Based on what evidence? Just through general chats that was going on around at the time.
00:38:19 Was it ever accepted during your time on the unit that the attack on Dwayne had been racist?
00:38:28 I think the entire incident was regarded as being racist.
00:38:34 Did you hear any derogatory comments from other managers? We've covered HMC86, but other managers in relation to Dwayne.
00:38:47 I'm just trying to think if the tirade by uh Bob Potter on that particular spectacular evening included it. I I can't remember. I can't remember. It may very well done that evening, but that was a quite an evening in itself.
00:39:05 was a quite an evening in itself. Uh I've asked you some questions earlier today about racism amongst your fellow UCOs
00:39:07 UCOs in terms mindful of anonymity orders
00:39:19 in terms mindful of anonymity orders of who was and was not racist amongst your u colleagues. Is there anything that you wish to add? Exception of that one that I've already written. I I I cannot remember anything overtly being said that would be racism, but I'm saying I never worked with any
00:39:34 but I'm saying I never worked with any of those officer officers in proximity to say like in a uniform environment whereby you would have had a lot more dealing uh with black people. So I don't know how they would have reacted that
00:39:45 know how they would have reacted that there just wasn't the opportunity or the conversations. Can I move now to the way in which you created your cover identity?
00:40:01 created your cover identity? Uh, did anybody at any time suggest any alternative approach to the use of a deceased child's identity? No. And until this inquiry, I was never aware that actually any officer actually did it. early in the SDS I appreciate very early on sort of 68 maybe early '7s
00:40:15 very early on sort of 68 maybe early '7s to have refined it but no I wasn't aware till actually sitting here listen the evidence myself that anybody didn't use a dead child's identity till uh when we shifted away from it and didn't use them anymore
00:40:34 anymore if I've understood your written evidence correctly you did visit Peter Johnson's grave no
00:40:34 no you didn't sorry if I've written it that's my mistake there. It may be my mistake. Yeah. No, no. Put it down to me, sir. Put it down to me. I I would say uh from my no uh the
00:40:48 my no uh the I've got to stress uh that you know the the family here don't want any contact at all. And I was sort of bit shocked to realize that the name had my full name had been written down, the full dead child's identity. But I got to stress
00:41:02 child's identity. But I got to stress they don't want any contact at all. But no um I I never visited I I never visited the grave uh grave. whatsoever. It was over here. But I did visit graves, but not of his. Maybe that's
00:41:16 graves, but not of his. Maybe that's where if the confusion is probably down to me, and I apologize if that is the case.
00:41:20 case. What was the purpose of visiting graveyards? Well, we sort of go one step back. It's when I first arrived in the SDS. Uh we're talking really matter of a couple of weeks. It was explained that we on
00:41:34 of weeks. It was explained that we on the SDS do this very deep cover. And the deep cover involved us uh taking on uh the identity taking on the identity of a dead child. And the two uh managers I had at the time HN67
00:41:53 had at the time HN67 uh was there and HN86 was there and both of them gave different ways uh of doing it. HN67
00:41:58 it. HN67 uh he regarded what he'd say as old school and old school was going wandering around graveyards uh to find the details and uh H86 was very much you
00:42:09 the details and uh H86 was very much you go to the birth desk registers which was St. Katherine's house. So the first bit of advice I took at the time uh I was uh living in Kent. I wandered around one
00:42:21 living in Kent. I wandered around one local graveyard and it sort of gave me the terminology that sort of offends anybody but it gave me the willies. I don't know what you sort of say nowadays. It just felt very odd doing it. Uh and uh I ended up having a discussion about HN67 with it. Uh it
00:42:35 discussion about HN67 with it. Uh it just felt felt it just felt very odd for me to do. I actually had my own son uh was in sort of a dissimilar age to what I was trying to find on the graves. And really um the concept of self at the time wasn't wasn't developed. I didn't
00:42:49 time wasn't wasn't developed. I didn't understand it, but I had a feeling that that was the wrong thing to do. So instead of, you know, quitting while you're ahead type thing, I'd done it in a different way. And I then went to St.
00:43:00 a different way. And I then went to St. Katherine's house and ke St. Katherine's house, I methodically went through the books, but that was advice to two managers, but I had exactly the same advice from the SDS officers as we also had the advice within what's now being known as a tradecraftraft manual as
00:43:11 known as a tradecraftraft manual as well. So there was a whole series of ports that I could look to with a view of taking on this dead child's identity. And nowhere ever did I hear of anybody
00:43:26 And nowhere ever did I hear of anybody that we didn't do it that way and my own apprehension about taking it on. But it really was from a selfish perspective. Uh I thought about my own son and I just no it just felt wrong wrong to do it that way around. Just for the record it was my mistake not yours. Um
00:43:40 not yours. Um good good one one for you Mr. B for mine.
00:43:43 mine. Next question is, do you know whether any of your colleagues being very careful about anonymity orders visited graveyards?
00:43:54 graveyards? That I do not know. Well, the exception of HN61, who's the one who told me to do it cuz that's what he did, but not in the field. HN61.
00:44:02 HN61. HN67, sorry. 67. Yeah. As in the DI at the time. Did you do any research into Peter Johnson's family above and beyond the information that you found on the birth and death certificates?
00:44:24 I didn't but I was aware H86 did. So basically I took uh the birth uh birth um definitely there uh what I also took and I I I don't know if you want me to elaborate but I found it very strange
00:44:36 elaborate but I found it very strange what some of the officers were saying that all they did is took the name. I
00:44:47 that all they did is took the name. I find that difficult to really understand because the whole point of us having a birth certificate is if somebody was checking us they would go into St. Katherine's house, pull out your birth certificate, which means they've automatically got the person's mother's name or the father's name. So me, and as
00:44:58 name or the father's name. So me, and as far as I was aware, certainly officers I
00:45:11 far as I was aware, certainly officers I was talking to, not only did we take the child's identity, we also took the name of the father and the mother. Then um because the career
00:45:22 because the career of my child's father was checkable, HN86 uh done an inquiry. He told me he done an inquiry to make sure that the father I I I don't quite know I don't know how
00:45:37 I I I don't quite know I don't know how much I can say further, but he made some things to make sure it was okay because of the father's occupation. To what extent, other than your mother's nationality, which we understand, did you use elements of your real life in putting together your cover identity?
00:45:54 together your cover identity? Far too much. Far far too much. Uh I ended up um I was saying I can still I know what the child's parents' names were. They became my parents that were there. But what I did is I gave uh say for example my real mother is deceased
00:46:09 for example my real mother is deceased now but she she was born in Germany and I'm bilingual in German through having live lived over there my childhood. So what I've done is for Peter Johnson's mother, she became the same name as his mother, but I gave her the German. I
00:46:22 mother, but I gave her the German. I also gave him the same sort of schooling I had, the same sort of upbringing I had. Uh so there there's uh I've had enough counseling and psychiatry since uh is a guaranteed absolute recipe for
00:46:34 uh is a guaranteed absolute recipe for disaster. this was going to be trying to untangle yourself at a later date and presumably might give rise to security risks as well if anybody investigated you. Could you repeat the question?
00:46:46 Could you repeat the question? Might give rise to security risks as well if anybody investigated you. I still don't get that question. If you use elements of your own life yes somebody starts investigating your cover identity might lead you might lead them.
00:47:02 identity might lead you might lead them. No, it was never never close enough to be able to do that. Uh I I never took it to such an extent. Um I I got myself at the sameish area uh where I grew up but not precisely. uh for that very good
00:47:13 not precisely. uh for that very good question you've put put in there is we had to be very very mindful that whatever we gave away um you know say for example if you really did have a part of the world that was really really close to you and you tied it into
00:47:27 close to you and you tied it into closely if the activists ever think yeah it could come back come back which evidently obviously did do with a couple of SDS officers being very careful about anonymity yes do you
00:47:46 do you did you know at the time for sure that your cont any of your contemporaries had visited the area where their deceased child had been born.
00:47:52 I I cannot name anybody specifically.
00:48:07 Were we know that the practice came to an end in fact shortly after you uh started?
00:48:08 started? Were you aware of any discussions about the ending of the practice and why
00:48:19 about the ending of the practice and why it was being ended and any pros and cons of doing so? Yes, I was. And again, making sure you don't identify anybody. Can you help us with the nature of those discussions?
00:48:33 the nature of those discussions? Yes, absolutely zero and I repeat, zero thought for the PE families, the dead childrens. So anybody who then says all suddenly we had a moral quam or something absolutely zero nothing whatsoever to do with it. It was purely
00:48:47 whatsoever to do with it. It was purely uh that St. Katherine's house was going over to computerized searching system. So basically instead of if an activist suspected you uh they'd literally have to go through one binder after another.
00:49:00 to go through one binder after another. So say for example you were born like I was pretend born 1968. You'd literally have to go through every single binder. very very ardious task and then all of a sudden like you're saying won't go into but there's other officers uh before
00:49:20 but there's other officers uh before and um sort of about the Mark Jenner era when when he came in it literally was that
00:49:22 that he could be inserted into St. Catherine's house. We didn't have that ability beforehand. So, his details could be inserted exactly like he wanted it. And I actually chatted with him
00:49:34 it. And I actually chatted with him about his names uh before before he was there. But it was purely and absolutely there's nothing that all of a sudden the SDS after 27 years of doing it suddenly
00:49:48 SDS after 27 years of doing it suddenly got moral quans. It was just purely that we we could actually be very easily caught out. It caused the SDS me uh concern
00:49:55 concern uh because it actually meant they'd actually be able to search quite quickly as well us as before manually. But the advantage we had is that like everything else computerization takes quite a
00:50:10 else computerization takes quite a while. So they started with a certain year and they were working up and certainly my year was nowhere near being yet put put in there. But it's yeah it's it's an operational for us a real concern operationally.
00:50:23 concern operationally. Again being careful with names. Were you aware at the time you were in the SDS of any other UCOs having more than one fake identity?
00:50:41 fake identity? Not a real identity. I was aware that you might drop a name in and things like that which I did but no I wasn't aware. I was I was stunned here in the inquiry. Uh for I can say his name like John Dyn ridiculous scenario with that one. I
00:50:53 ridiculous scenario with that one. I wasn't aware of that in the slight this lady this Thompson whatever that's that's no not aware of any of that at all. It's it's not just that. It's it's just you you there's so much effort gone
00:51:05 just you you there's so much effort gone into creating this uh this real you know it's a dead character but it's a real character. I I just I can't begin to see why somebody would have two identities.
00:51:19 why somebody would have two identities. You stated that you were instructed not to vote in your cover identity. Was there anything else that you were expressly prohibited from doing in your cover identity?
00:51:30 Yeah. No, the police side, the age of provocator is police side. When I was undercover, other than voting because that was a position. Yes. um the the commission of crime. You'd always be
00:51:41 commission of crime. You'd always be encouraged to avoid trying to do crime, but you were only allowed to go up to a level of crime that had been discussed
00:51:57 level of crime that had been discussed with your managers before you went out because some uh some uh may involve a little bit more criminality without going into it uh and some would involve uh far far less. So yeah, there was
00:52:10 uh far far less. So yeah, there was there was restriction what you could do in your cover identity, but that that was quite that's quite a big quite flexible flexible amount. When you started your deployment, were you in given any instructions about
00:52:24 you in given any instructions about whether or not you could continue to use your identity after the end of your deployment? Absolutely not. You were told expressly, absolutely expressly, uh when the SDS is finished, you go back. And I think it was hyperexpressed because of what just
00:52:38 was hyperexpressed because of what just happened when I was out with regards to uh Mike Chitty.
00:52:47 Now you stated that you were told that using your assumed identity at court wouldn't be perjury because a home office had issued you with ID. Who told you that?
00:53:02 you that? Once again, that would be on one of the numerous card journeys with HN86. And it was basically said to me that you you you me uh wouldn't be lying because somewhere I don't know magic index or something thinking about it now uh that
00:53:15 something thinking about it now uh that my name my real name is linked up with a home office provided I won't get the documentations in case I'm allow not allowed to but this was it wasn't like some Mickey Mouse madeup ID you know these are pucker passports driving
00:53:26 these are pucker passports driving license etc etc etc. And you don't just you don't just sort of materialize them. They had to have me who they were creating it for. That was my
00:53:41 creating it for. That was my understanding. So the the one provisor was as if uh I was arrested with the activists is you weren't allowed to commit perjury as in lying about what you did. But certainly I never regarded it at all as committing perjury
00:53:56 it at all as committing perjury uh from me getting up in the witness box that I didn't. And I would have happily said that I was uh Peter Johnson thinking I don't know some magic mysterious register or something existed. But I did also say in my statement somewhere uh I certainly felt
00:54:13 statement somewhere uh I certainly felt at the SDS there's this sort of mushroom undercover policing where we're always kept in the dark and sort of fed And as as I've got longer away from I've looked back I think that might have been one of the little tales tales as well. uh and we certainly uh didn't
00:54:28 as well. uh and we certainly uh didn't have any protection along the lines of the officers now have under the CHIS act.
00:54:40 act. You've stated that you were advised to make your cover persona a little younger than you really were to make your real self harder to trace. Was there any other reason to do that? Right. I apologize if I wrote that down, that wording, because it doesn't make any difference. But with regards to the tracing side, it's just um that that
00:54:58 tracing side, it's just um that that didn't matter once they're looking for you. What they wanted you to do is if possible, you could lose a few years because it involved less of a backstory. So if you could knock I knock three
00:55:09 So if you could knock I knock three years off my own cover, that meant I had three years less employability to sort of account for. I I I I thought out of the SDS um tactics that we had, uh I I
00:55:20 the SDS um tactics that we had, uh I I thought that one was actually prone to error and went after I was deployed uh other officers who came to see me for advice as a as a mentor in the field sort of field mentor. I'd actually say
00:55:35 sort of field mentor. I'd actually say stick stick with your real age as close as possible because you had hilarious scenarios whereby I can recall in my real life uh like what all the number one records were what was uh what was playing at that particular time but I
00:55:47 playing at that particular time but I had a real difficulty actually thinking three years later because that sort of music thing and all this like and so in the trade craft I actually felt that was there I've heard I've heard I don't know where I heard it that people thought there's some sort of underlying ploy to
00:56:02 there's some sort of underlying ploy to get alongside side like on younger women or younger people or something like that. Uh it's never consideration. I never heard that whatsoever. It's purely if you could make you know there's no point if you look look old but if you
00:56:15 point if you look look old but if you could get away with it lose a few years it's an easier traceable history a smaller traceable history. Just to be completely clear was there ever any suggestion from anybody that it would facilitate sex with younger women?
00:56:28 would facilitate sex with younger women? Sorry anticipate the press question. No I apologize for that and no not the slightest.
00:56:35 Coming on to what you did with your persona in relation to sex. You've stated that you made it clear that you built in to your persona that Peter Peter Johnson had an aversion to
00:56:46 Peter Johnson had an aversion to longerterm sexual relationships. Can you help us with did that mean that
00:57:00 Can you help us with did that mean that there was silence or a positive position on casual sex or a short-term relationship? That was written down. I haven't seen my plan. I've seen some other officers u plan about who they were and everything else. Mine mine that was basically I
00:57:12 else. Mine mine that was basically I didn't have the word sex in there, but mine expressly said that I was a single person not looking for longerterm relationships. So I've done you know both H in67 H in 86 they both saw that
00:57:28 both H in67 H in 86 they both saw that they both helped me particularly H&86 he done a lot of additional work this is what you were saying earlier about this kindfulness this helpfulness stuff to make sure that I was right and you've already touched on it so the exact moment in time I'm receiving help from
00:57:45 moment in time I'm receiving help from him constructing my identity the Chitty saga was huge for the SDS potentially maybe even closing the unit down type thing. This is from H86. How true it was, I don't know it was. And yet at no
00:57:57 was, I don't know it was. And yet at no point did he say to me, you mustn't have sex. It was all from him about longerterm relationships. So me having an aversion to longerterm relationships. Uh which you know was it was it necessary to actually have have that in
00:58:09 necessary to actually have have that in your persona? I don't know. But that was clearly clearly written down with a help from both managers. And in practice, how did you interpret that? Did you
00:58:27 that? Did you how did you communicate about sex with your target groups? I took it that bearing in mind what I'd said previously about the perception of where I was going to uh with the extreme left wing that
00:58:41 left wing that it was okay as long as I didn't fall in love and have a longer relationship. Uh it would have been very very easy. It was expressly said to me, you've mentioned one thing that I actually
00:58:55 mentioned one thing that I actually forgotten about is you mustn't vote when you're undercover. The other thing you must not do is you must not be an agent provocator. It would have just been one step further, a single step further to
00:59:09 step further, a single step further to say when you're undercover, you must not have sex. It would have come back at them. You would have actually said, look, I'm living with these people for three, four years. I'm doing all this lot. I might need additional person. And then people come back and they go, oh,
00:59:20 then people come back and they go, oh, everybody didn't have sex and all this stuff. Well, yeah. If you've got the looks, looks, the intelligence, and the hygiene habits of like a King Edward potato, then obviously you're not going to have sex. But if you're out with
00:59:31 to have sex. But if you're out with these people for three or four years, they get to know you. They get to trust you. You you're part of that. You almost look like an ideal partner for them. It
00:59:43 look like an ideal partner for them. It is extremely extremely difficult. But he he had it. If H86 wanted in that moment in time for sex to stop, he not only did have the Chitty saga, he also had the I can say his
00:59:54 saga, he also had the I can say his name. That's a Rick Gibson Clark saga where we also say I defy any SDS officer to say they weren't aware that both those involved sex and problems having
01:00:10 those involved sex and problems having out there. So they H86 could have easy just said right from this day forward look what's just happened because of that. They didn't they didn't do it. There was an opportunity and I was getting briefed at that exact moment in time.
01:00:20 time. Did you do anything with the people you were mixing with to communicate to them that you weren't
01:00:31 communicate to them that you weren't interested in a long-term relationship? Yes.
01:00:32 Yes. And how did you communicate that words to the exact effect that you said? I basically once again uh using way too much of my own life u my my ex-wife
01:00:45 much of my own life u my my ex-wife uh and me u you know it just we got married way way too young we had we basically I got pregnant we got married too young so what I actually done is I extracted that and put that into my
01:00:57 extracted that and put that into my story as in I did not want to have a relationship a longerterm relationship because I myself was in a relationship that I really I didn't want to be in
01:01:11 that I really I didn't want to be in either and I think I I managed to really make that very evident to anybody I was with. Uh because really that's how I actually personally felt at the time myself and the relationship I was with with my then ex-wife.
01:01:25 with my then ex-wife. Why didn't you use uh an excuse to avoid sex altogether? I I avoided sex on a number of occasions by using that thing. It's not not by a
01:01:38 by using that thing. It's not not by a long long way. Everybody's like throwing me throwing themselves at me weirdly or something like that. But there was enough social interactions uh that uh there could have been more more sex. I was in a young
01:01:49 more sex. I was in a young but you could for example have made up a fictitious girlfriend, couldn't you? You can, but not for four years. You've got to bring some somebody in. You you've got to occasionally show some people. And I think the environ I put in the statement uh what I thought was the
01:02:03 the statement uh what I thought was the best scenario is you could actually have somebody like living with you at your house and occasionally they come back and they see somebody there a real person. I've given a lot of thought how I could have avoided it. Uh and to me
01:02:16 I could have avoided it. Uh and to me that that would have but it's another layer that they would have to do and there was always concerns about who do they use okay like there's 10 pe out
01:02:27 they use okay like there's 10 pe out because we did we had discussions uh I had a couple of discussions over with Trevor agent 78 and basically then do you have 10 women for all the bloss you have to change and round the logistics
01:02:39 have to change and round the logistics all and I just think the management just made it easier uh and
01:24:27 threshold that HN86 gave you for violence, ABH. Was that in the context of self-defense or was that in the context of actually committing the criminal offense ABH?
01:24:45 It's a good question. That's a good question and I something I should have asked. Uh I just took that as he he didn't distinguish it and I didn't ask. It was just basically said that up to ABH would be done but there was there
01:25:00 ABH would be done but there was there was never any distinct between offensive obviously offensive we we shouldn't be doing offensive and that was certainly said to me as an I mustn't be I mustn't
01:25:11 said to me as an I mustn't be I mustn't be an instigator of offensive action. So say for example our little goostepping friends are the other side of the road or something like that. I mustn't go across the road and lead the charge. But in the debate that we'd be having with
01:25:23 in the debate that we'd be having with them, the physical debate, exactly who runs who first would be a bit mixed up. So no, I I never I never questioned that. But basically, as long as their thought was um
01:25:36 thought was um if I appeared before a court, if it was up to ABH, there's a very very good possibility that that would be dealt with the court. Nobody else knows about it. if all of a sudden they're
01:25:47 about it. if all of a sudden they're going to c me off to prison, the SDS then would have to get involved. So, no, I never qu I should have questioned, but no, I never questioned it.
01:26:00 no, I never questioned it. So, the gray area that might leave is if somebody else in your group starts a fight,
01:26:05 fight, are you able to join in in offend in an offensive way because you have not started it? Was did you understand you could do that?
01:26:17 could do that? Yes. Yes, that was that was definitely Yeah, definitely you said. Yeah. or like you're saying in self-defense if they get the first uh punch in in terms of actually committing the offense of ABH. To be clear then your
01:26:28 offense of ABH. To be clear then your understanding was you had permission to hit people. Correct. Correct. Yes. And to harm them provided it wasn't grievous bodily harm.
01:26:45 grievous bodily harm. Correct. And there is always this concern that you're going to have my own concern. I think I did express it to other SDS officers later in my role as field mentor that you're always concerned you could hit somebody with one punch and a one punch can turn out
01:27:01 one punch and a one punch can turn out to be an absolute disaster from there as well. So it's a very very difficult uh position. But what I I basically you're going above ABH when somebody's on the ground there sort of kicking there's punching and all that when
01:27:12 there's punching and all that when somebody's gone on the ground type scenario and that as far as I was concerned I wouldn't have been liked to
01:27:27 concerned I wouldn't have been liked to wouldn't have been allowed to do it and um but it's a it's a difficult it's a difficult balance. Did anything that HN67
01:27:34 said say to you on the issue differ from that? He wasn't as specific. He wasn't as specific. He did sort of he knew knew he thought I'd be getting into
01:27:46 thought I'd be getting into other areas uh that may involve violence. He he he didn't specifically uh break it down to uh a section 47 as opposed to section 18 grievous bodily harm.
01:27:57 harm. What did he how did he put it? You you're going to get into fights out there and basically just you
01:28:09 there and basically just you it's got to be reasonable proportionate sort of something along that lines but not as much as HN86 did. No restriction purely to self-defense. No. No,
01:28:20 No. No, Edmonson
01:28:28 Edmonson didn't didn't have a further discussion uh with Keith uh but certainly had discussion with Bob Lambert. And what did Di Lambert say to you?
01:28:40 And what did Di Lambert say to you? Pretty much the same. Um I always felt with Bob U is get away as much as you uh could possibly get away with type scenario. Uh, with Bob there was always it could be it can be squared up. It
01:28:51 it could be it can be squared up. It could be I think Bob was the get to to square it up if it all went really really badly. But if we could sort of they're saying that he also did always say try not to get engaged in violence. That's was definitely homeed in by him
01:29:05 That's was definitely homeed in by him as well. But I I always felt I felt with H&86
01:29:14 H&86 u he would be deeply deeply upset if the event you somehow went over his instruction. Uh I felt with Bob Lambert there's always a degree of flexibility if if something happened. I'd just like to say with regards to crime though because it
01:29:29 with regards to crime though because it sort of sounds all pretty weird uh what I'm talking about but as a police officer
01:29:31 officer uh before getting the SDS uh you know I was allowed to have a gun. I was allowed to speed. I was allowed to go through red traffic lights. I was allowed to do a lot of things that normal people
01:29:43 a lot of things that normal people wouldn't be allowed to be a criminal offense. So for me thinking I I didn't realize the SDS was done on a bit of paper. I actually thought there was a
01:29:56 paper. I actually thought there was a proper structure around us. So when they were actually talking to me about committing a crime, I thought that's as much authorized as me carrying my you know none of us allowed to go out there and carry a firearm. It's against the
01:30:17 and carry a firearm. It's against the law. But I was authorized because I've been on I was authorized. So this is another level of criminality. For whatever reason, I felt we were authorized to do it as long as I stuck in the parameters of what my senior officer actually just gave to me.
01:30:32 officer actually just gave to me. Did DI Lambert give you any thresh any specific threshold of as to the severity of violence that you could meet out?
01:30:40 I never had the same discussion I had with him as I did with H86. Yes. Bob, I I don't want to give the impression said I'll go and do whatever you like type thing. I just never had a discussion. I just felt that I would be
01:30:53 discussion. I just felt that I would be backed up. Uh probably better if it all sort of went Pete Tong and something really really bad happened with with somebody I felt that he would support more.
01:31:03 more. Am I understanding you correctly? His his advice to you was don't get involved, but you had the sense that if you did, he would do his best to help you.
01:31:17 you. No, with a stage in between. don't get involved. You are likely to do something the same as what H86 said, but they didn't feel there was the same worry about if it went worse for me. I was more concerned under HN86
01:31:30 more concerned under HN86 steership. And then with regards to the actual person who was in charge of the unit at the time, Keith Edmonson, I very much felt, you know, not critical of him because he was a good manager in other areas. Uh but I felt that operational
01:31:45 areas. Uh but I felt that operational things like that uh if I rung up and I had to commit some sort of assault he would devolve decision how to deal with it to Bob
01:31:55 it to Bob to move to another topic now picking up the chronology and I want to pick it up starting with Steven's murder on the 22nd of April right
01:32:05 right 1993
01:32:10 1993 and if we could have up uh Please, sir. It's tab B66 from volume 3 720989.
01:32:27 If we could have page six, please.
01:32:35 This is a transcript of your appearance on the program dispatches in 2013.
01:32:50 on the program dispatches in 2013. In the middle of that page, there is uh the first of two entries attributed to you. Could we have that expanded, please? Thank you. Extremely high management joined parallels between the Stephven Lawrence and potential Rodney King scenario in LA
01:33:02 and potential Rodney King scenario in LA where extreme violent disorder broke out on the streets of LA. And hands down the request from Steven Lawrence was what was happening with the campaign? What
01:33:14 was happening with the campaign? What was the likelihood of disorder on the streets if this involved the campaign? There was no campaign like it when I was out there.
01:33:30 out there. Can I start please by asking you to explain
01:33:36 explain who you meant when you use the phrase extremely high management is what H&86 was saying to me and it was definitely coming from on high down to
01:33:59 definitely coming from on high down to him. So I I never uh spoke to anybody uh exception of Bob Potter um with regards to that. So I am thinking it more the extremely high management is the pressure that I felt the H&86 was getting um when he was talking to me me about it. I I never spoke to anybody higher.
01:34:16 higher. What did HN86 say to you about
01:34:18 about senior managers speaking to him? Basically, his sort of commissioner
01:34:30 Basically, his sort of commissioner downwards type thing about concern of where this campaign was going.
01:34:38 Did HN86 ever say to you that he had spoken to the commissioner about anything to do with Steven's murder, the family, or the campaign? No, he didn't.
01:34:57 No, he didn't. Did he say anything to you to the effect that he'd spoken to any specific manager in the chain of command about any of those issues? It was definitely apparent that Bob uh Potter was within that uh
01:35:08 that Bob uh Potter was within that uh was in that because he was higher than him who above that I don't know. How did you know what the view of extremely high management was?
01:35:19 extremely high management was? Purely hearsay from HN86. And in what terms did HN86 express himself?
01:35:39 the uh way I described earlier is that that it was feeling like there was going to be a loss of control within London from as high as we can get and the the you know the name gives on the tin special demonstration squad. So our responsibility was and there we were
01:35:53 responsibility was and there we were facing what HN86 certainly regarded as uh the biggest thing since the pole tax and it he just doesn't create that in a vacuum in the SDS. The SDS is all
01:36:08 vacuum in the SDS. The SDS is all providing intelligence. Um so it's not just us. It was beyond the SDS.
01:36:15 Did he say anything which would enable you to distinguish whether HN6 was referring to what he thought senior managers would want
01:36:26 thought senior managers would want and what senior managers had actually instructed him they wanted? Do you see the difference?
01:36:41 the difference? I can certainly see the difference. And if I'd if at the time I'd thought about asking a further question, I might be able to answer that more clearly. I don't know if that was him thinking what they wanted rather him requesting. I get the question. I don't think I can answer truthfully.
01:36:53 truthfully. The phrase on the fourth line down, hands down the request from Steven Lawrence. What was happening with the campaign?
01:37:03 who handed down a request.
01:37:20 Yeah, hands down there. That's just it. Basically, whoever was filtering in into the SDS, which would have been uh the special branch uh desk, the pod, public order desk,
01:37:34 order desk, no doubt three area, no doubt TO20 old A8.
01:37:36 A8. That's who I'm doing. But all I know is that it was evident to me that compared to anything else the SDS was dealing with in that period of time and after
01:37:47 with in that period of time and after that death. Um I'd certainly seen I'd seen I'd seen pressure beforehand on the DCI picking him up daily, dropping them off daily postard sometimes. Uh you
01:38:02 off daily postard sometimes. Uh you could see the pressure on him, but there was an extraordinary amount of pressure within a couple of weeks uh of Steven being murdered. Did HN86 say anything to you to distinguish between which of those sources of request for
01:38:19 those sources of request for intelligence were actually making requests for intelligence? No, he didn't.
01:38:29 How was the request communicated to you?
01:38:37 How was the request? What this request here?
01:38:40 here? The the request what's happening? What was the likelihood of disorder on the streets if this involved the campaign? Well, at that particular stage, uh,
01:38:51 Well, at that particular stage, uh, nothing at all. But when I was deployed, when I was deployed, it was very, very evident,
01:38:53 evident, try not to breach anything now, that the SDS intelligence we had at the time, uh, was not sufficient to be able to
01:39:12 was not sufficient to be able to basically answer the this request of what is going on in this campaign. Did HN86
01:39:14 Did HN86 tell you that intelligence on the likelihood of disorder on the streets if this involved the campaign was what was being sought?
01:39:27 being sought? He he was 100% adamant. He he saw it. He he saw literally the Rodney King scenario. That was that was that was his wording.
01:39:36 wording. And how soon after Steven's murder was this raised? quite quite oh Christ a month maybe two months it was certainly certainly soon it it was certainly soon
01:39:51 we've heard evidence and criticism of the police uh for not investigating effectively began pretty soon after the murder. Was
01:40:03 began pretty soon after the murder. Was there any correlation between the family starting to criticize the police and the requests for intelligence about whether disorder was likely?
01:40:20 disorder was likely? When he was discussing with me, it was all to do about public order. And I I'm not, you know, I'm not sure when the criticism of the police uh began.
01:40:33 began. uh like you're saying it's it's early on but that wasn't being that wasn't being passed on to me uh from you know H86 I'm sure would have been aware of it but
01:40:46 sure would have been aware of it but basically as far as it was said to me the concerns were to do with the the public order aspect stopping the public order more than the criticism
01:40:58 you weren't deployed at this stage no
01:41:04 no so presumably this is just conversation between you and 86 in the car. Yes.
01:41:15 Yes. At the safe house meetings in this period soon after the murder, is HN86
01:41:22 is HN86 making any appeal for intelligence to any of the UCOs? I wouldn't have been in those meetings because I wasn't deployed. But it's beyond belief that the intelligence
01:41:36 beyond belief that the intelligence gathering unit for public disorder, the special demonstration squad, wasn't
01:41:48 special demonstration squad, wasn't asking the undercover officers what they knew about it at the time. Did you hear in any of the pleenary sessions in the safe house HN86 speaking
01:41:54 speaking to the team about Steven's murder and consequent requests for intelligence? Yes, but not specifically bured down into what each group knew.
01:42:10 Can you help us with your earliest recollection of HN86 raising Steven's murder with the team and the terms in which he did so?
01:42:24 did so? I think pretty much uh the day uh Mr. Khn came walking out the front door because it was certainly a topic of conversation within the SDS and I think it must have been I don't know if it was like on the news or HNH6 was talking about it. I don't know that that's when
01:42:36 about it. I don't know that that's when that's when I can remember specifically uh the Lawrence case being talked about within the group. And what did HN86 say?
01:42:49 And what did HN86 say? Basically that this was a public order event. And but I'm saying that anybody specifically uh say for example Trevor Morris other people he' then borrowed down with them what their Pacific group
01:43:02 down with them what their Pacific group actually knew. And there's all sorts of intelligence reports, but I've said it somewhere in my statement, intelligence, negative intelligence is very very important within a fast shifting uh
01:43:19 important within a fast shifting uh public order event like this. So just by actually saying uh you know the SWP, ANL, other groups aren't currently involved with the groups at least makes you sort of narrow it down to where where you're looking where your field's looking towards.
01:43:30 looking towards. Can you recall HN67 adding materially to anything that HN86 said?
01:43:44 said? I'd be very surprised. He he didn't have that role there. There's one when when HN86 was on that squad, he he was the governor. There was no ifs and buts about it. When HN86 was raising um the murder and the issue of the risk of public disorder, did he do
01:44:01 the risk of public disorder, did he do so in strictly professional terms or in racist terms?
01:44:10 racist terms? I think to the unit that would have been more in the professional terms. With me in the car, he was certainly venting venting his upset and his anger.
01:44:17 Can we keep the same page up, but can we have um Mr. Francis's dialogue at the bottom of the page expanded, please?
01:44:30 I was also asked the same as all other campaigns. Could I find out anything
01:44:43 campaigns. Could I find out anything else that could be used to maybe get the public to not have as much sympathy for the Steven Lawrence campaign? as it what it had truly had. Is there anything the police could possibly use through the media to start
01:45:04 possibly use through the media to start maybe taring the campaign? It means the amount of sympathy that that campaign can generate locally is going to be vastly diminished.
01:45:20 Who asked you that? That's HN86. And can we take it from the phrase I was also asked the same as all other campaigns that HN86 made the same or a similar request in relation to other campaigns
01:45:39 relation to other campaigns with the proviso that what his concern was is that this is all coming together. Uh so the uh black justice campaigns rather than being uh individualists somehow all being pulled together in this. This was a big enough campaign to unite everyone together to get over
01:45:51 unite everyone together to get over their smaller differences particularly political differences to turn it into one campaign. And was HN86 referring individually to specific campaigns or did he refer to them
01:46:04 campaigns or did he refer to them generically? No, he did mention some specific campaigns. Can you recall which campaigns he specifically mentioned?
01:46:15 specifically mentioned? No. Well, earlier would definitely been had been Joy Gardner, Cynthia, Jared. I I can't remember all of them. Can you remember when he was this perhaps I should start first of all, was this all one request or was this a
01:46:28 this all one request or was this a series of requests over a period of time? a series a series of not necessarily requests series of discussions before I was deployed. Uh so when um he actually m basically he didn't make the targeting strategy
01:46:44 didn't make the targeting strategy earlier because we didn't really know where I could go that would provide relevant intelligence. It only later through some other intelligence we gleaned that meant I could actually be
01:46:57 gleaned that meant I could actually be sent in the right place. So this is just a series of ventings about all these campaigns and the huge Steven Lawrence one coming in. Uh so that's just there. So by the time uh I
01:47:11 that's just there. So by the time uh I was then deployed uh it wasn't like just before I was deployed. I had this all all this conversation before before I I then went out. When were you asked if you could find
01:47:30 When were you asked if you could find out anything else that could be used to get the public not to have as much sympathy for the Steven Lawrence campaign as it actually had? Well, it's the fir first first bit was the most important bit. Could I get somewhere where they actually knew what was going on with the Steven Lawrence
01:47:42 was going on with the Steven Lawrence campaign? That that would be the most important bit is there's an intelligence vacuum. and they didn't know what was going on. So that that's the first bit.
01:47:54 going on. So that that's the first bit. If I then got there, found that out. And if
01:48:00 if your job's almost done, if in the event I could have come back and said, for example,
01:48:02 example, um I know Panther UK is leading this group, uh that that's it would have been some sort of information. They had no information at all. So then anything
01:48:15 information at all. So then anything that's that's added into that's added into the pot of me trying to find something. But you just have um it's almost it's got to almost be unprecedented in SDS terms that you've
01:48:31 unprecedented in SDS terms that you've got something uh running from April all the way to when I was deployed at the beginning of September and they didn't know they didn't know what was going on behind the campaign. I don't think they've ever had anything like that in the SDS before.
01:48:47 My question was to about when could you help us when are you asked? Just before I was deployed that he knew that I was going. So that would be last week of August, beginning of September, sometime like that.
01:49:01 sometime like that. Can you recall where that conversation occurred?
01:49:03 occurred? That would have been the car car before I got there. Was it just the two of you?
01:49:16 67 was definitely knowing where I was going to. Uh 67 was there. I think his whole in the conversation in the car. No, 67 knew where I was going to by the time I was tasking and that we were trying to fill this intelligence void. How much else he knew is questionable.
01:49:30 How much else he knew is questionable. Yeah. I just like to stick at the moment with the conversation when your your this request is made. Yes. Of you.
01:49:36 In what terms was the request made
01:49:51 I just the same conversations been having quite quite negative quite hostile to this it's the same conversations that I've been reporting on we had earlier this is basically I'm going out to solve this problem of this
01:50:03 going out to solve this problem of this group being dragged along by these other people, all the racist terms. That's how I took the That's how I took the tasking. I was filling that void about the conversations I've been having for months. And he showed this real
01:50:17 months. And he showed this real upset with his SDS officers who weren't providing him the intel that he wanted. Hold that thought and I'm going to come back to other SDS officers in a moment.
01:50:31 back to other SDS officers in a moment. I'm understanding you to be saying that this tasking was given including racist language. Is that Yes.
01:50:49 Yes. Can you recall any of the slurs that were used or tell me what the what form of racist language was used when this request was made of you?
01:50:56 request was made of you? The same as what we've been discussing. Basically, this was all happening at the same time. It was building up what he was talking about the campaigns, how they were. there's an intelligence void. People can't get me the information that
01:51:07 People can't get me the information that uh I'm there. So when when I'm out, this is this is what I want you to fill.
01:51:18 When you are tasked in the car, was there express mention of the media as in your answer to dispatchers
01:51:27 with regards to Steven Lawren's? Yes. And I then questioned him exactly what you know what sort of things are we looking for and that's when he's given the idea of what previously had come about.
01:51:42 about. Just trying to remember who who was used for what basically if you could say a campaign
01:51:51 campaign somebody was more violent or they had a criminal record or whatever how that undermines the credibility of those campaigns. But he the first bit of intelligence was what what was going on and then that that came that came with that.
01:52:04 Was there express mention of taring?
01:52:12 There is there is express mention I've mentioned already. I don't like using the word but there was taring. smearing was used. But I saying the smearing I wish I wouldn't have said it on the
01:52:24 wish I wouldn't have said it on the dispatch as full stop because smearing can have like a negative like we made something up. this was uh I can't mention it but there's parts of the special branch that certainly could
01:52:35 the special branch that certainly could engage in such practices and I was aware of such practices but I asked specifically HN86 what we're talking about with regards to this particular
01:52:47 about with regards to this particular campaign and the campaign came back as no this is if we provide intelligence say it's run by the commies I know they're getting money from Russia or something like that uh that would be the taring that's smearing and we would be able to get it in media. There was no concern whatsoever. And I think um in
01:52:59 concern whatsoever. And I think um in the last tranch when you were talking about Andy Coohl's we had the heads up that the media we're doing a documentary and Andy Cole's watch out because
01:53:10 and Andy Cole's watch out because they're doing it. We had there there was good contacts in the media for us to be able to do it. So I didn't think for one minute that if I found something found something that could be used with truth
01:53:23 something that could be used with truth uh against the campaign that it wouldn't have been used. I don't think it was some sort of rubbish he was saying. Were any previous examples given? Yes, that is with regards to um I think it was Cynthia Jarrett whereby they
01:53:41 it was Cynthia Jarrett whereby they the example he gave to me is that uh the she was described she didn't have a criminal record but people who knew her around apparent this is real real intelligence as opposed to madeup intelligence is that she was extremely
01:53:55 intelligence is that she was extremely violent as a person. So despite somebody having no criminal record, it was that she was
01:53:57 she was provable intelligence as in like uh the intelligence was gleaned. I don't know I don't know how how it was gleaned, but that was given to me as an example that could be used. Not not this one because
01:54:14 could be used. Not not this one because there'd be no relevance as the Lawrenes were violent, but that's just what it could be used against that campaign. Can I be just as can I ask of some clarification? Yes.
01:54:23 Yes. Do you do you really mean Mrs. Jarrett or did you mean Joy Gardner? I can't remember. I've got one of the things I the whole thing is every time I
01:54:35 things I the whole thing is every time I go on to a different demo. I've got real problems with regards to demos remembering the campaigns. I should do but I spent so long trying to get rid of all the slot in my head. So if I've made a mistake there, yes. Yes, it was. And no disrespect intended. Uh but yeah,
01:54:51 no disrespect intended. Uh but yeah, was their express mention made of reducing or diminishing sympathy? Absolutely. Absolutely. You're taking the steam out the campaign if you can take this head of steam out of a campaign.
01:55:04 campaign. In what ter in what terms was that expressed to you? Basically exactly that. Exactly that. There there's it's it's there. But it's almost like from uh the perspective it's
01:55:17 from uh the perspective it's showing what's really going on. That's that's how it was built to me is sort of if there's a need to justify it is, you know, shouldn't the public really know
01:55:32 know, shouldn't the public really know that this is what's happening? You know, the public have got the right to know that this is what the campaign is. That's certainly how it was sold to me and I I believed at the time I went very hard to try to find something. Yeah. I accepted that was
01:55:50 something. Yeah. I accepted that was like my mission and so I did that and at the time I actually thought it was the right thing to do. Absolutely.
01:56:00 Was essentially the same request made of anyone else to your knowledge?
01:56:12 I think it was, but I don't think it was done as clearly. Um Trevor Morris who gave his evidence here, I think you saw
01:56:24 gave his evidence here, I think you saw he was quite distraught about giving his evidence in certain areas and I still feel to this day that he provided intelligence, fed back intelligence. I wouldn't have had access to it because
01:56:36 wouldn't have had access to it because he was able to go into a lot of uh black only events and he was reporting back and I'm not quite sure that all the time when he was reporting back he may not have been totally aware what HN86 might
01:56:48 have been totally aware what HN86 might be doing with the intelligence. I I felt that he was being used. We've heard from Mr. Morris. He was infiltrating the ANL.
01:56:59 infiltrating the ANL. Um, do you actually know whether or not he was tasked to find out whether there was anything about the Lawrenes
01:57:11 about the Lawrenes or the campaign that might be used to discredit them? I think he was, but I'm not 100% sure the wording would have been as clear as what you've just said. And what is the basis for you saying that? because my conversations I had
01:57:22 that? because my conversations I had with HN86 was very disappointed that Trevor can't seem to find anything, but
01:57:36 Trevor can't seem to find anything, but I'm not sure if I can trust him because he's this whole thing is he might go over the o over the other side type thing.
01:57:45 Was any general request made of the SDS of SDS UCOs to keep an ear out for anything that might be used to undermine the Lawrence family or the Lawrence campaign?
01:57:57 family or the Lawrence campaign? I don't know if that was done privately. I I just I can't answer that. Were you ever at any SDS safe house meeting at which any general request was made? I was certainly the safe house meeting when it was very evident that
01:58:16 meeting when it was very evident that HN86 was extremely frustrated that there was no intelligence coming in into that unit
01:58:16 unit in front of the other UCS. Correct. Yeah, we we had an intelligence der in the most important campaign that the there is there was nothing else like it at that particular point in time.
01:58:32 it at that particular point in time. Can you help us anchor that um event in time?
01:58:37 Certainly by the time uh Nelson Mandela was involved, by the time that was there, you've it's just unprecedented public order potential uh you know that that all of a sudden you've got somebody like maybe him coming on a march or
01:58:50 like maybe him coming on a march or something like this. You're going in places uh you you had earlier a few years earlier. The other one is like Reverend Al Sharpton came over. He was they tried to stop him getting in the
01:59:01 they tried to stop him getting in the country. He arrived. It's that sort of buildup.
01:59:08 buildup. Can I just stop you there? Was it a request for intelligence about the potential for public disorder? A request for material with which to undermine the campaign
01:59:19 campaign if it was a request at all? I think I think it's exactly the same thing. I think public order will always be the most important and I think it goes hand in hand with if we can undermine something or be truthful say this is
01:59:32 something or be truthful say this is what it is. I think the two things are the same thing. You've described an expression of frustration by HN86 at this meeting. Immense.
01:59:43 Immense. Was it linked or was it following a request for information that HN86 was making of the unit?
01:59:54 that HN86 was making of the unit? It was part of his frust. It was it didn't get it didn't get any better. Putting it that way. What I'm what I'm trying to get at what I'm driving at Mr. Francis is if one of your colleagues sitting in that meeting, would they have come away with the impression that their boss wanted them
02:00:11 impression that their boss wanted them to keep their ear eyes and ears out for intelligence relevant to the potential for public disorder arising from the Lawrence campaign?
02:00:24 campaign? Yes. And I can write his number down. Uh would I'll let you do that in a moment.
02:00:25 moment. Would they have come away with the clear understanding that they were being asked not just for information about when the next march might be, how many people
02:00:36 next march might be, how many people might turn up, that sort of thing, but for information with which to discredit the Lawren's or the Lawrence campaign?
02:00:50 the Lawren's or the Lawrence campaign? No, I don't think that was that clear. I think the public order aspect definitely was. Do you want me to write down who that officer was?
02:01:08 Thank you.
02:01:32 show you at the break. One more question before I'm going to ask if it's convenient to stop for the uh afternoon uh break. um
02:01:48 uh afternoon uh break. um says the same as all other campaigns in the first line uh of what you said at this part of your interview and appearance on dispatchers in can you help us as far as possible as to
02:01:57 to when you were asked to find
02:02:02 to find information that might undermine other campaigns. exactly the same time at the beginning of my deployment. So I went out with that remitt if I could
02:02:13 went out with that remitt if I could find anything. Numero um was definitely the Steven Lawrence campaign. But if in the meantime it just from um our perspective and it's been mentioned
02:02:24 perspective and it's been mentioned already very well superbly by Mr. Khan is the racism that we felt that the they couldn't possibly be organizing themselves and there seemed it just
02:02:41 themselves and there seemed it just seemed worryingly that it was all coming to an extreme extreme head. So I I went out definitely there there's an intelligence darth on the big campaign uh the elephant in the room campaign this one the Steven Lawrence one but behind it what else is going in other
02:02:52 behind it what else is going in other areas but I've got to say um there's a limit to what I could do with uh some of the campaigns earlier because I was certainly informed by u Trevor Morris
02:03:06 certainly informed by u Trevor Morris that they would be very very difficult for me to get intelligence on just because I was white. He was having difficulty doing that. Which campaigns? The ones that we just mentioned, the ones earlier.
02:03:22 ones earlier. And was this a tasking communicated solely to you to the best of your knowledge
02:03:23 knowledge or to anyone else? As I'm saying, I listened to um HN78's evidence and I actually that's the reason I referred him to Mr. Ellison.
02:03:35 reason I referred him to Mr. Ellison. I'm the one who referred him to speak to him and I was stunned um shocked that he didn't actually confirm
02:03:49 didn't actually confirm um more than what he did and is that because H&86 very very shrewd very very shrewd individual by shadow approached him very differently to me because of who he was or did H&86 just
02:04:02 or did H&86 just um deal with the way I could be dealt with cuz he knows that I I would I would not do anything with it. I wouldn't be offended by it with him. I I would do my
02:04:16 offended by it with him. I I would do my absolute best and utmost to get him what he asked me he tked me to do. Being very careful about identifying people. Please don't mention any names or ciphers. No.
02:04:27 No. Any of the other any other officer on the left?
02:04:32 Yeah, there definitely is one more, but I I don't know if he was Was that person tasked? To your knowledge. To my knowledge, I don't know. To my knowledge, I don't know. Sir, is that a convenient time to take the afternoon break? Certainly. Um,
02:04:46 Certainly. Um, will 10 minutes be enough this afternoon? 10 minutes.
02:18:58 Yes. Thank you, sir. Just before I go any further, Mr. Francis, the the question of whose case was used as an example in conversation
02:19:10 example in conversation um about supplying material to the media.
02:19:18 media. Joy Gardner died on the 1st of August 1993.
02:19:27 1993. Mrs. Jarrett collapsed as a result of a during a police search in 1985.
02:19:36 Your witness statement says it was Joy Gardner. Does that assist you to clarify?
02:19:39 clarify? It does. And my legal team, we spent we had to spend a long time going over various bits. Obviously, this looks quick fire questions there. My legal team will definitely say how long certain sections took me to be able to
02:19:55 certain sections took me to be able to recall accurately for you, which take a lot longer. But yes, 100% that that's correct.
02:20:00 correct. Uh, can we now have that dispatchers interview back up at that 720989? Could we have a page seven this time, please?
02:20:20 Uh, middle of the page. Thank you. They wanted any intelligence that could have smeared the campaign. Yes, there is this general remit. So had I through my
02:20:33 this general remit. So had I through my circles come up with something along the lines of they the family were political activists, if somebody in the family was involved in demonstrations, drug dealers, anything. What that would have
02:20:48 dealers, anything. What that would have done with what they would have done with the intelligence, I can't call it, but that is our remit not just for them. That is always our remit. When we are out there, we find out the intelligence
02:21:02 out there, we find out the intelligence and if it's needed, it will be used. Can we start first of all with the word they? Who did you mean here by they?
02:21:21 certainly would have been um as far as I regard uh the the police as in like the wording of the police would I would have had that as they that's who I was thinking at the time. Um I but it's not trying to
02:21:34 Um I but it's not trying to differentiate say oh this this as in they as in that meant like the commissioner would use it. All it is is um the special branch. It's intelligence and um the
02:21:46 It's intelligence and um the intelligence we had in the special branch. It's what's it there sitting in the cupboard for like special branch officers to only read or something like that. Special branch if it's usable
02:21:58 that. Special branch if it's usable intelligence. That's what special branch is is for. We don't collect it for our own. Oh, we can read about the Lawrenes or something like this. It's whoever. Can I I just want to check I'm
02:22:09 Can I I just want to check I'm understanding your evidence correctly. Are you saying that it was your understanding that the police the Metropolitan Police Service as an institution you understood would have wanted any
02:22:22 you understood would have wanted any intelligence that could have smeared the Steven Lawrence campaign? Let's go as definitely as high as the special branch. I don't know outside what what they would do with it, but the special branch could certainly use it
02:22:34 special branch could certainly use it through the media. I don't know who the role of special branch is countering subversion. Another word of countering
02:22:45 subversion. Another word of countering subversion is to stop subversion. So do do we have to get authority from the higher part of the police? Um yeah, I all I know is had I'd found anything along the lines that I've suggested there, I absolutely
02:23:02 suggested there, I absolutely anticipated then opening up the paper uh to say I'd discovered something about them. I fully expected to open up the paper and read whatever I'd found out.
02:23:15 Can I take it from the answer that you've given about subversion
02:23:29 about subversion that your understanding was that special branch would regard the Steven Lawrence campaign as subversive? No. No.
02:23:34 No. No. Can you help me? the the people who we thought when I was going out that were running it and they we thought they were our extreme left-wing targets.
02:23:51 our extreme left-wing targets. But why would you if that's the case, why would you want information to smear the family's campaign? Because if the ones are controlling the subversives, we're then getting rid of the campaign that the subversives are running.
02:24:04 that the subversives are running. Can I take it then that it's implicit in that answer that the special branch mindset was that the Steven Lawrence campaign was not being run by the family.
02:24:14 family. 100% mly. It was the it was the disbelief that it could be run. And once again, I've apologized for my head being the way it was with regards to Dwayne
02:24:29 the way it was with regards to Dwayne Brooks, uh, sir. Sir Sir Sir Sir Dwayne Brooks, it was exactly the same when when I went out. Uh, my my initial thoughts were that definitely somebody on the extreme left is running this campaign. I felt that myself.
02:24:43 campaign. I felt that myself. And you use the phrase in the second line, general remit. Is that intended to communicate that in any
02:24:53 any justice campaign, special branch would have an interest in intelligence which might undermine it?
02:25:08 intelligence which might undermine it? I'd go further than that. Uh anything that the special branch was involved in any campaign. So that's not just black
02:25:22 any campaign. So that's not just black justice campaigns. if we found something uh about any of our areas. I saying the the special branch um it had a role in assisting the security services. It's not hidden that's not a hidden thing in countering subversion. And certainly when I we touched on it very briefly
02:25:38 when I we touched on it very briefly when I was on C squad there there really was a feeling of the reds under the bed uh all all this with regards to communists being there. Trosky has been there that was very much in Bred and Sea Squad.
02:25:55 Was there specific mention of an interest in the family being involved in demonstrations or if they turned out to be drug dealers.
02:26:03 dealers. So I can't quite get the link to things. Are these examples you are giving that you imagine would have been of interest or did anybody ever say to you, look, the sort of information we're
02:26:19 look, the sort of information we're interested in is are the family involved in drug dealing, demonstrations, anything like that? No, that was me asking HN86 for clarity. And once we've established this isn't a
02:26:33 And once we've established this isn't a branch uh smearing as branch smear job u what he basically you know I need some help in what I'm actually looking for here
02:26:34 here and what did he say in along the lines of what I've actually said there.
02:26:44 Can we go to the bottom of uh page seven please?
02:26:58 I wasn't successful. No SDS officer was successful in finding anything really concrete. There was just a bit of hearsay title. There were rumors and
02:27:10 hearsay title. There were rumors and conjecture that the family itself may not have been to be a loving, caring home that was passed on about the family. that could have been used may have been used if they were really desperate to try and smear the family.
02:27:30 desperate to try and smear the family. First of all, is that a reference to the evidence you've since given us um about a a rumor that Baroness Lawrence was partying on the night that her son was murdered? Yes, apologies is obviously it
02:27:41 murdered? Yes, apologies is obviously it was totally wrong, but yes, that that is the intelligence I'm referring to. To the best of your knowledge and belief, was that information ever deployed by the Metropolitan Police
02:27:55 deployed by the Metropolitan Police Service to undermine Baroness Lawrence or her family or the campaign? No, it it was never deployed. And if HN86
02:28:04 HN86 passed it on to anybody else, uh, I don't know at all. All I know is that when I did say it to him, uh, it was it was gratefully received. It wasn't the
02:28:16 was gratefully received. It wasn't the other way along the lines of, "Oh, don't tell me things about the family. It's disgusting type thing." It was it was greatly received along the lines of um, I'm it's the it's the right direction. I'm trying to look at things, but I I
02:28:30 I'm trying to look at things, but I I didn't know if he passed it up or didn't do anything with it.
02:28:40 It says at the start, no SDS officer was successful in finding anything really concrete.
02:28:46 concrete. Can I just clarify there on one reading it's implying that SDS officers were
02:28:58 it's implying that SDS officers were trying to find such information. I asked you before the break about who was so tasked. Were you meaning here just yourself and Mr. Morris or were you refer implying that other officers were trying to find it?
02:29:11 trying to find it? Depending if they were asked which I don't know but if it w if it was that would be that other officer that I wrote down for you. So there was an element of conjecture in this.
02:29:19 this. There is.
02:29:23 There is. Could we go to page eight please and the third paragraph?
02:29:32 The paragraph by Peter Francis. Thank you.
02:29:34 you. The family liaison officer who was in Steven Lawrence's house was taking all the details of all the family members who were there. All the visitors who
02:29:46 who were there. All the visitors who actually gave their details. This then was passed to the area special branch. The area special branch then passed it through the special branch to the
02:30:00 through the special branch to the special demonstration squad and we were asked to comment on these individuals
02:30:13 asked to comment on these individuals whether or not in their words they were politicos or what who they were? When did you first learn that there was a family liaison officer in the family home taking down these details?
02:30:26 details? Fairly early on uh after Steven was murdered.
02:30:30 murdered. How did you find that out? From from H&86. Was that a conversation in the car or was that in the office?
02:30:48 I think the first time I heard about it was actually in the office because he had he had a list I don't this wasn't the list directly from uh there but he
02:31:01 the list directly from uh there but he had a list of people that according to him came from uh the family liaison officer that was there. So yeah, I think the first time it was is when he came in with the list.
02:31:12 with the list. And was that a convers who was present when that conversation was had as far as I can recall. It just would have been me and him in the back office. You just literally would have come in.
02:31:24 You just literally would have come in. This isn't unusual for H&86. The back office had all sorts of like little rubbish jobs to do uh for him for uh the DI and to lesser degree the other two
02:31:35 DI and to lesser degree the other two sergeants. So he just came in what which was sort of an admitty type job. Uh can you can you do this with the explanation he gave gave to me of what it was?
02:31:57 he gave gave to me of what it was? Did he tell you that that information had come via area special branch special branch to him or is that your assumption?
02:32:08 Yeah, I there was
02:32:22 I don't think the chain would have been HN6 HN80. Sorry, I get tired. HN86 would have been directly to the
02:32:29 three area and special branch officer. That would have been very unusual. I think it would have been SDS to special branch desk to three liaison. And in one of the
02:32:47 of the files uh that I've seen which comes under Trevor Morris's one, there's actually details that the intelligence shows that we went the other way as well. There's actually uh there's a demo
02:33:01 well. There's actually uh there's a demo in Welling and on it H&86 writes please make sure three area liers are informed and that to me you can see somewhere the documents cuz I pointed it out to my team is that it goes up to the special
02:33:29 team is that it goes up to the special branch and then special branch out tom. The only way it could have been is say for example uh I was on the SDS and afterwards I went out and ti inconceivable because as former SDS uh or very well trusted you might get the SDS ring you up directly but I I I think um I I
02:33:41 up directly but I I I think um I I honestly I'm racking my brains if he actually told me the exact route of it all but I
02:33:49 all but I When was this that I wrote this down for?
02:33:50 for? This is your dispatchers. This is a long time. This is a long time ago. This is a long time ago. So, it's probably more clearer than what was going on. Um, that that's there. Basically, yes. I'd been very very
02:34:02 Basically, yes. I'd been very very surprised if it was directly into the SDS from area and you put I said area there uh because you asked earlier it
02:34:14 there uh because you asked earlier it would have been very specifically three area special branch and I know quite a lot about it because I was three area special branch DA officer when I was on C squad. So actually one of I was a lot of the time secounded onto the
02:34:25 of the time secounded onto the anti-terrorist branch but when I was on there uh I I was three area special
02:34:37 there uh I I was three area special branch leaison officer. Can you help us with that then? The three When you say area branch, are you referring to the three area special branch liaison officer?
02:34:38 officer? Correct.
02:34:44 Correct. Where physically does the three area special branch officer sit? C squad.
02:34:50 C squad. So in the yard, not in three areas physical jurisdiction. Correct. Because you are covering so many different police stations. So just very very briefly when I joined the special branch when I went on to sea
02:35:04 special branch when I went on to sea squad the first station I went back to was my old station Brmley and Penge introduced myself as being the three area liaison the special branch they obviously knew me so that was a very good contact to have I then went around
02:35:21 good contact to have I then went around to the other police stations Orington uh Beckenham Beexley Heath Welling and you got a card saying you're the area leaison they're there to ring you if they have anything related. So certainly had I been in three area uh I would have certainly made myself known to the
02:35:37 certainly made myself known to the family as officer I would have got their information which interesting enough when I read uh read something or heard something or other the officer correctly a family as officer talks to an action
02:35:50 a family as officer talks to an action and an action is as the name suggests it requires action. So if she's written says there's a lot of difference between writing somebody a notebook and giving it to something but an action means it had to be actionable. So when she's
02:36:01 had to be actionable. So when she's written it down who was in the house what do you do with an action? You have to action it. And the action on the form if if anybody can actually find this bit
02:36:13 if if anybody can actually find this bit of paper uh you know I put good money on it. There would have been information passed to three area special branch and then the liazison that liaison officer would be in C squad and that's a very
02:36:25 would be in C squad and that's a very short trip then to getting it to us in the SDS.
02:36:34 the SDS. So can I take it that this is all evidence that you you through familiarity with the system
02:36:45 are assuming happened. Well, I'm I'm definitely saying that H&86
02:36:46 H&86 definitely said to me, this came from FA family officer and yeah, I have made the leap that the area special branch hasn't
02:36:59 leap that the area special branch hasn't contacted him directly cuz I think H&86 would have said to me cuz I'm in the trusted circle, oh by the way such and such in three area has given us the intel.
02:37:14 intel. No names please. But did you know the three area special branch liaison officer at the material time? No, but he's blanked out on your form and I've highlighted to my legal team if you aren't aware where it actually is.
02:37:27 you aren't aware where it actually is. And it actually says on there three area liaison blanked out. What I'm driving out is did you speak to that person? if you give me his name because I have only seen the blanked out version but I didn't speak to him when I was in the back office but I might know
02:37:41 was in the back office but I might know who he is and if you tell me who he is I can then definitely say if I think there's a link between H86 and him directly or via the disc. Okay.
02:37:51 Okay. So when you're saying pass to the area special branch and then from the area special branch to special branch does that mean in practice you think it's come from the FLO's to the air three area special
02:38:03 FLO's to the air three area special branch liaison officer at New Scotland Yard and that he or she has given it to the C squad desk officer
02:38:14 the C squad desk officer and then it would be somebody higher than him as in like the DI by minimum of
02:38:27 than him as in like the DI by minimum of a DI would then contact the SDS with it. It wasn't often that a DC unless he was known to the special branch. For example, you later on you get on to uh
02:38:38 example, you later on you get on to uh Brian McDow the DC he was former special branch so he could contact us directly. Now you said that from your experience of being the three area special branch liaison officer, you could imagine going
02:38:52 liaison officer, you could imagine going down and speaking to the FLO yourself if it had been you. Would that really have happened or would you have gone to the SIO?
02:38:55 SIO? I would gone you have to always go to the SIO first. You'd have to go to the SIO first and literally you could have a look through the actions. they they wouldn't necessarily question why a special branch officer was looking through actions because an SIO up to any
02:39:10 through actions because an SIO up to any rank probably other other than commander you'd never have to explain to what you're doing you literally just say is it quite an amazing thing to be a DC in the special branch and the next time I went back to Brmley police station I was speaking directly with the chief
02:39:23 speaking directly with the chief superintendent who didn't know me and I'd worked there for four years but because I was from the special branch and it'd be the same exactly there you could you would go in the SIO Or you could literally walk in and you'd say, "I just want to look through the
02:39:34 "I just want to look through the actions." Or more than likely, this particular action was in the special trance tray forum.
02:39:45 trance tray forum. In terms of who wanted the information, I want to explore with you what you know about who wanted what. There appears to be, if I may say so, an assumption that it was the family
02:39:58 assumption that it was the family liaison officers who wanted to know who these people were. But might it have been the family liaison officers were reporting back the names and the s and somebody else perhaps the SIO or
02:40:12 somebody else perhaps the SIO or somebody else wanted the information and made the request. I find it a stretch that the FLOS's would just stand there and just randomly decide to take all the names of people visiting a a house in those circumstances. So I think they
02:40:27 those circumstances. So I think they were asked to look at who's coming in there. But I I don't think for one minute would they said to him uh you know oh this is this is the super secret for the special branch. They would just said please note everybody who's coming in.
02:40:37 in. But in terms of who makes a decision to ask special branch who these people are. Yes.
02:40:48 Yes. Or what information is held about them. Yeah.
02:40:53 Yeah. Can I take it that you have no personal direct knowledge about who made that request?
02:40:58 request? I would have thought it's special branch rather than the other way round. I don't think that the air liaison would necessarily be thinking, oh, I wonder if there is subversive activists going in the Steven Lawrence house. He'd have to be a special branch officer for that.
02:41:12 be a special branch officer for that. Most uniform officers haven't got a clue what subversion is. So, I think the direction came the other way round. It' become from century from the special branch to ask who's in the house in there and they would say, you know,
02:41:29 there and they would say, you know, because we're looking after the family to make sure that there isn't anybody going in there. And I think it's too much of a stretch to think it was uniform think subversives in there. That's that's branch mentality. That is
02:41:45 in towards the end the last two lines in their words they were polit whether or not in their words they were politicos or what who did you mean by in their words.
02:42:19 I think that's just me trying to explain what the special branch we're looking for. was poorly done, but I'm not, you know, never wanted to be a TV star, never want to be again type thing. So,
02:42:31 never want to be again type thing. So, I'm not entirely sure in in their words. I I basically in in special branch terms, it's a it's a special branch term. It's relevance to us. So, I think I think uh I meant uh their in their
02:42:44 I think uh I meant uh their in their words. Yeah. In to the special branch. It would make a difference to the campaigns to say they were politicos as opposed to just a grieving family. I think
02:42:56 think on the same page. Could we have the fourth and fifth paragraphs now?
02:43:03 Mr. Lewis and then Mr. Francis. Thank you.
02:43:11 you. Mr. Lewis says, "So they wanted you and the other SDS officers to give them information about the political persuasion of the individuals who were visiting the family's home." And you said 100%.
02:43:32 said 100%. Because that would then allow us to make the assessment which way this campaign was likely to go in the public order arena.
02:43:42 Can I take it from that uh that what you're saying is special branch would assess on the basis of who was visiting the family what direction they
02:43:53 visiting the family what direction they thought the campaign was going to take?
02:44:04 thought the campaign was going to take? Yes. And does does that mean the political complexion of the people in the house? If we could ascertain and what was left of the list, because it wasn't the entire list that was given to me, what
02:44:18 entire list that was given to me, what was left of the list, could we possibly work out? Um, yeah, it it's a very different very different scenario if
02:44:30 different very different scenario if you've got uh, you know, the equivalent of the Nation of Islam, you've got uh, Panther UK uh, coming back in. Very, very different than, uh, who we were aware had already come out the house uh, compared to what we didn't know.
02:44:46 compared to what we didn't know. You said you only had a part of the list. Can you help us with how you knew you only had a partial list? It's the leftover. It was the leftover bit. So that obviously, you know, Mr. Khn over there, he'd, you know, he wasn't on my list.
02:44:57 list. How did you know that you only had the leftovers? Because that's what that's what it was described. It was said to me, this is the people we don't know in the house. Said you buy
02:45:13 Said you buy a H86. He didn't want me to do um Mr. Car, Mr. Mansfield. U I didn't realize till I was actually listening to the evidence. I I wasn't aware till a few days ago uh that Mark Wodsworth came out of the house, but he wasn't on my list
02:45:24 of the house, but he wasn't on my list either because he was obviously scribed off somewhere because they knew who he was. It was a list of people that uh we we didn't know. I'll be coming back to the list in a little bit more detail later, but for present purposes,
02:45:39 later, but for present purposes, can you help me with you mentioned a few groups by way of example? Um, can you take that further from your experience
02:45:54 take that further from your experience in the SDS and in special branch? What would the thinking have been? Say for example, I'm choosing this as a hypothetical example, Mr. the SWP had been
02:46:01 been in the house. Yes.
02:46:07 Yes. What would the assessment have been? Well, been concerned that the other officers in the SWP didn't know that they were in there. That would be the number one concern cuz we should have the intelligence that that was them. But if the SWP came out, um that's
02:46:25 if the SWP came out, um that's badish for the SDS, but not that bad cuz we got them controlled. We're watching them all the time. The SWP couldn't do a lot without us knowing. Now, what we're looking for is somebody more scary. Uh, the Nation, Nation of Islam. I'm not
02:46:39 the Nation, Nation of Islam. I'm not allowed. No, you know, can I say it? You know, our coverage. What would have been scary about the Nation of Islam? No coverage. We got no coverage in there. And Panther UK, Panther UK, they don't like the word. Uh, the Millies
02:46:53 don't like the word. Uh, the Millies don't like militant don't like the word, but they set the Panther UK up as a
02:47:03 but they set the Panther UK up as a front group. But we didn't weren't aware of that at the time. So, uh, an unknown group, this Panther connection that that's that's small. So, we got no coverage. Plus, there might be prone to more violence.
02:47:13 Was there an assumption that the family would be influenced by the visitors? There was a very, very deep-seated racist feeling that they would be totally led by the groups.
02:47:36 Why was that assumption made? I think with the racism that we've already said that they can't believe that they'd be able to run their own uh own campaign.
02:47:44 Could we um
02:47:49 No, just one moment.
02:47:53 Go back to page five, please.
02:48:03 Second and third paragraphs. The shift in my potential posting that took place can be summarized in two words and that was Steven Lawrence.
02:48:14 words and that was Steven Lawrence. Steven Lawrence was killed by a group of white boys on this road. They called him n-word and stabbed him twice.
02:48:27 twice. You were initially preparing to infiltrate anarchists, weren't you? Correct.
02:48:39 Correct. Was the change in direction shortly before you deployed? Yes.
02:48:42 Yes. Can you help us with when
02:48:44 when a change was muttered?
02:48:59 There was two things happening at the same time. You had the Steven Lawrence campaign was building momentum. At the
02:49:11 campaign was building momentum. At the same time, the feedback from where I was potentially going, which was anarchist but specifically maybe class war, uh, was that, you know, they were morbound. they really weren't doing anything. So, there was a shift uh both directions. The concern for me basically was
02:49:31 The concern for me basically was would I be able to go anywhere at all? Uh bearing in mind that I I wasn't black.
02:49:35 black. Doesn't quite answer the question. When when was
02:49:37 when was a change in direction muted?
02:49:51 July, August time that it started to firm up. I think there was speculation maybe type earlier. Uh the there no there's something else was happening as well. That's a third strand. But there there's uh not we can't go there, but
02:50:02 there's uh not we can't go there, but there's a third strand. Something else is happening in another area. But um yeah, it's starting to be moody. Definitely by the time we get to the August,
02:50:12 August, beginning of August and then there was an ID of we're getting on to it later.
02:50:23 an ID of we're getting on to it later. Um there's an ID of somebody who was uh white that all of a sudden they just thought, hold on, there might be an inn for me to get along some beside somebody who's white who had an insight into this campaign.
02:50:35 campaign. Was
02:50:41 Was the conver who started the conversation? H86.
02:50:47 You said in your officer a witness statement two decades ago in 2003
02:50:58 statement two decades ago in 2003 um that HN86 told you the anarchists in London were not doing enough public disorder activity to warrant the deployment of an officer into their world. Is is that right? is some sense there is multiple there that strand was definitely part of it as well.
02:51:12 definitely part of it as well. Was it a conversation along the lines of well there's no point putting you into the anarchists now let's look at where shall we put you
02:51:24 shall we put you yes with another little strand if I write down a codey thing for you because I think it's quite important because you're trying to get to the decisions being made if you could write that down please. And all it is is a question mark with regard to that posting. What was happening
02:52:21 Thank you.
02:52:33 show you that later.
02:52:41 So, you've got a number of things going on.
02:52:43 on. Was there anything specifically happening at that time with the Steven Lawrence campaign? It's just how big it was becoming. it was how big it was coming and the fact
02:52:58 was how big it was coming and the fact that you know that where where the where they could have gone where they could have taken a public order arena. I think the the Welling uh bookshop and all that lot is where it was going without
02:53:10 lot is where it was going without anybody really knowing where it was going. The feeling was there was so much momentum behind this campaign that I know it comes later. It's October but it's not far away. So without knowing
02:53:30 it's not far away. So without knowing how it's going to burst that that's how it's feeling on the SDS. It it had to give. There is just way too much pressure for a campaign. In relation to the Steven Lawrence campaign,
02:53:40 campaign, did HN86 specifically refer to it? Yes.
02:53:41 Yes. When talking about redirecting you is the number one. That's what I said there. It was two words. It was two words. That's what it was.
02:53:58 You've talked separately about a lead which presumably is a reference to Lewis correct
02:53:58 correct which we will come to
02:54:07 if special branch already knew and the SDS already knew who was surrounding the Steven Lawrence campaign and in the house.
02:54:18 house. Why did you need a lead? They didn't know who those people were on the list. That's the whole thing. They they taken off people that were on the list that
02:54:31 off people that were on the list that they knew. The list I had was unknown people.
02:54:35 people. I I think as it transpires, they were mainly family members and concerned people. Um but at the time when the list was there, that wasn't known. They didn't feature in the special branch. that already been searched in special
02:54:51 that already been searched in special branch before I had the uh thing given to me. The special branch it sent it through. So I'm left there with whatever's left over and that that was the concern. So all of a sudden we've got a lead like you've mentioned him already as Lewis Chap.
02:55:04 already as Lewis Chap. There had been a number of marchers already, hadn't there? Yes, there had. Yes. Yeah, there had. and presumably special branch knew which groups were
02:55:16 which groups were marching with the family or with the campaign group. I should be more uh if you if you look back and I'm sure you'd be going through it in depth with me. Uh
02:55:28 be going through it in depth with me. Uh the intelligence they had, I don't think they even had uh the right names of everybody. The files weren't married up with who they were. They they had they had intelligence, but it it wasn't clear. It it wasn't clear.
02:55:47 I think um just to be clear, I think Baroness Lawrence said she didn't march, but
02:55:52 but I I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. That was earlier before my deployment. I just don't know at all.
02:56:04 And so a decision is uh made to change the direction
02:56:09 to what?
02:56:21 To, as my targeting strategy shows, to get alongside this very interesting uh person of being identified and really see where where uh it was going to lead to. It was quite
02:56:33 to. It was quite we've got intelligence dur we don't know what's going on. We want this intelligence gap filled. If it turns out they're political, well, we'll advertise at that. And anything else could be
02:56:46 at that. And anything else could be found out about these groups that could be used. It was to me it was quite a quite a clear quite a clear thing that I was looking for, particularly as I had something to focus on. It would have been extremely difficult get along to
02:56:59 been extremely difficult get along to this I don't know to turn up at Steven Lawrence house or something. I I just don't know. The special branch needs an inn. Otherwise, you just sort of wander around some. We're trying to join a group or something.
02:57:11 group or something. We're going to stop that line of questioning there. We'll come back to your targeting strategy um in a little while, but for present purposes, can we take this document down and have up 726-970,
02:57:23 726-970, your tab B79, sir? This is your officer A witness statement. I'm going to take you to page 26 when we've got the document up.
02:57:41 Uh, paragraph 128, please.
02:57:52 I'll give you a chance to refresh your memory from that.
02:58:16 Yes. 2003 or whatever that was, wasn't it? Yeah. And you're moving out to talk about other justice campaigns, in particular Winston Silcott, Brian
02:58:28 particular Winston Silcott, Brian Douglas, and those you refer to as the M25 murderers. It's the the black officer you're talking about is Trevor Morris.
02:58:34 Morris. Yes.
02:58:39 Yes. Um he we understand withdrew in the summer of 1995, not 1996 as here. Do you have any reason to doubt that it was 1995?
02:58:53 was 1995? Oh, no. As I'm saying, this Christ, this is 2003. I had absolutely access to no paperwork in the slightest. And where I was uh in 200 uh 2003, I'd had my uh first rather
02:59:07 uh 2003, I'd had my uh first rather spectacular nervous breakdown uh in 2001, April 2001. So, where exactly I was, I'm actually amazed. I don't
02:59:18 was, I'm actually amazed. I don't actually remember any any of this that was actually written down but that's obviously that's everything lumped all together all the camper I think that sort of shows where my head was actually I've gone from the M1 all the way to
02:59:30 I've gone from the M1 all the way to Brian Douglas with M1 didn't even do it properly Brian Douglas was towards the end no date wise totally correct if that he he must know when he come off rather than me thinking when he came off
02:59:43 than me thinking when he came off Mark Jenner was deployed into the left wing including into groups um and organizations that were campaigning for racial justice and he deploys in the spring of 1995.
03:00:00 deploys in the spring of 1995. So it appears to us that there's there is an overlap um between him deploying in the spring and Trevor Morris withdrawing from the ANL in the summer of 1995.
03:00:19 And it's right to say that there wasn't in fact any gap in having SDS officers deployed into the left wing in groups which had an
03:00:33 left wing in groups which had an interest in campaigning for racial justice.
03:00:36 justice. Yeah. But not the same level. Mark Mark Jenner um if you look at his file because the legal team got me to look at some of his stuff there. There's a couple of references in his that reports have been attributed to Mark Jenner
03:00:47 have been attributed to Mark Jenner about black justice campaigns and he immediately writes in his thing uh this wasn't me uh this is this is PF as in as in me Mark Jenner there's no way it
03:00:58 in me Mark Jenner there's no way it certainly was Trevor was dealing with the black justice campaigns then it was me and to a lesser degree Mark u obviously within the column wrote
03:01:10 u obviously within the column wrote center but he was also Afer and the Reds. No, I never felt that Mark was anywhere replacement with regards to uh
03:01:26 anywhere replacement with regards to uh Trevor. Trevor's knowledge knowledge of the campaigns was brilliant. Can we take that down now? Can I ask you now move back to Joy Gardner
03:01:36 Gardner who tragically died on Sunday the 1st of August
03:01:38 August 1993.
03:01:46 1993. Can you help us with whether news of her death reached the SDS? It definitely did. Particularly with regards to Trevor quickly.
03:01:53 quickly. Yes. As fast as it could be there. What was reaction in the SDS to the death of Joy Gardner? Extreme concern with regards to public disorder
03:02:08 disorder desert is you know deservedly through what happened.
03:02:15 How did HN86
03:02:17 HN86 react?
03:02:27 react? This is part of this pressure pot he had in him when I was still with him. I was still fing him backwards and forwards. So again, it just adds into his pre pressure pot of what was going on. Did he react in any way in a racist manner?
03:02:35 manner? I can't specifically say if he said anything more specifically racist to her than others general racism.
03:02:50 Can you recall whether anything was said about
03:02:52 about the SDS obtaining or seeking to obtain intelligence relating to Joy Gardner's death?
03:03:03 death? I think the remmit's exactly the same. It wouldn't change at all. Is this the one with the Tottenham Town Hall thing that he was talking about?
03:03:14 that he was talking about? I just wonder if that's the same thing. I'm trying to get my head in the right place. That's all. Joy Gardner dies having been restrained by people for immigration officers for immigration purposes.
03:03:24 purposes. And where was that? And has tape in in her home. This the Tottenham one. Yes. With tape around her mouth. Yes, she suffocates.
03:03:37 suffocates. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I know this affected Trevor. This badly affected Trevor.
03:03:46 What I'm driving at is were you privy to any specific tasking rel arising from Joy Gardner's death? Me? No. But Trevor, he was under pressure with regards to that because
03:03:58 pressure with regards to that because Tottenham was his area with regards to the SWP, the ANL. He was under a lot of pressure to report on there. And I think anybody witnessing his evidence, uh, the conflict that he he went through
03:04:10 conflict that he he went through reporting on that incident, I I was friendly with Trevor at the time. And he he was affected at the time, what he was actually doing. So, but this this
03:04:21 actually doing. So, but this this Trevor, he would have still been looking for stuff
03:04:23 for stuff there.
03:04:28 there. Did you personally see Joy Gardner's file
03:04:44 at the time? No. When I later on went on some uh demonstrations in support of the Joy Gardener campaign, I would always make a point of reading the files whenever I I went to anything. So, I certainly would have had a look at Joy Gardner's file. There's two ways of doing the
03:04:55 There's two ways of doing the intelligence. Some officers wouldn't look at anything at all. I don't know. They thought they weren't good enough. They can't retain that in their heads when they're out. Uh I was exactly the opposite. I had always read as much
03:05:08 opposite. I had always read as much information about anything anything scenario I went to.
03:05:16 Dr. Specifically the address was Crouch End.
03:05:17 End. Sorry. Yes. Yeah. Same. Although I think there were meet there were campaign meetings in Tottenham as well
03:05:22 well under Trevor. Yeah.
03:05:33 When you saw the file, was uh any information on there that was adverse to the family? I I can't recall, but I Yeah, I I can't recall.
03:05:46 recall. Can you help us with whether or not the SDS provided any intelligence which would
03:05:50 would be capable of undermining Joy Gardner?
03:06:05 Not that I'm aware of, but the when I was listening to Trevor, his versions of what he said in the town hall compared to what other people said actually happened in the town hall. I if that would have been reported on that the they were going to march and they were
03:06:16 they were going to march and they were going to burn everything down and then they were going to head there and do this lot. If in the event that had been disseminated, that is certain intelligence that could be used against it.
03:06:30 be used against it. I'm specifically interested at the moment with smearing. Right.
03:06:35 Right. And whether you know whether or not the SDS attempted to smear Joy Gala. I didn't see anything in there at all.
03:06:49 We've got a number of newspaper articles in the bundles which seemed to show that the
03:06:52 that the immigration team had seen
03:07:00 had seen documents before they went to Joy Gardner's address which suggested uh there was a history of violence. In other words,
03:07:14 other words, information which did not come from the SDS.
03:07:16 SDS. Do you have any reason to gain say that? I've got no idea what they may have seen or what they were briefed. I'd be very
03:07:28 or what they were briefed. I'd be very surprised if the people who were doing the raid
03:07:30 the raid um because they I don't think they'd have any access to want to know what the special branch had on an address of somebody who who wouldn't be known about special I
03:07:41 who wouldn't be known about special I don't know if that's the same question really I'm lost with maybe it's clear if we look at the example could we have up please 36632 CUCPI dress.
03:08:05 This is um an addition of the evening standard on the 10th of August 1993, 9 days after Joy Gardner's death. and it is um an article which essentially
03:08:17 is um an article which essentially communicates the officer's point of
03:08:28 communicates the officer's point of view. And if we could have the uh left column, the bottom of the left hand column. Thank you. For the first time, they have told they being the officers through an intermediary their account of the drama.
03:08:39 intermediary their account of the drama. While researching the case, they read in official reports there was a possibility and if we could have the next column.
03:08:56 Mrs. Gardner might be violent. Affidavit from her former husband told of her behavior in the past and suggested he thought she could be to some degree mentally unstable.
03:09:07 mentally unstable. Armed with what they regarded as clear warnings to what they might expect, they went to Horny Police Station to alert officers of their visit. Even though
03:09:21 officers of their visit. Even though they were not required to do so, with an accompanying Home Office immigration official, they were all in plain clothes. They asked for two uniformed officers to assist them and a male and female constipal were sent. And then they describe their version of what
03:09:33 they describe their version of what happened. So, it appears the officer's account is they had access to documents um relating to her Joy Gardner's
03:09:48 um relating to her Joy Gardner's husband's complaints about her previous behavior. Nothing to do with the SDS. So, not that I was aware of. It's obviously if he ever gives evidence is a good question for H86, but I'm not aware of it.
03:09:59 of it. Could
03:10:04 Could we now take that down and have it's your B84 sir in volume 3 UCPI number 3262
03:10:41 UCPI 603262.
03:10:50 And once we once we've got that, can we have page 39, please? This is a transcript of your interview with Mr. Ellison Casey.
03:11:32 What are you doing?
03:12:03 So, as you've got the hard copy, can I just confirm I'm giving the right reference? It's It ends 3262. Uh, it ends 3262. Yes. And it's a UCPI number. Yes. Six knots. Yep.
03:13:05 That's right. Page. Um 39 please.
03:13:15 First of all, can we look at lines 5 to 12?
03:13:28 Basically what there is there was saying rumor conjecture that one of the people I don't know who it is. I think it wouldn't be Cherry Gross because she was one of them. The fact that her boyfriend, the story about it's either Cynthia Jarrett, Cherry Gross, or Joy Gardner. The fact that she had no
03:13:39 Gardner. The fact that she had no criminal record at all, but she had a history of violence of beating up her boyfriend. And that was sent from us
03:13:54 boyfriend. And that was sent from us outwards to say that we picked that not me personally, but SDS.
03:14:07 me personally, but SDS. So you appear there to have been telling Mark Ellison that the SDS provided
03:14:09 provided intelligence about
03:14:13 about the woman. It appears you were you weren't sure which. The woman having a history of violence of beating up her boyfriend. Is that right?
03:14:28 boyfriend. Is that right? He seems to be that way. Sorry, that's me banging in this thing. Sorry, I beg your pardon. Yes. Um, I can I can see that through here. Yes. And if we look now at lines 18 to 26,
03:14:45 I will give you a moment to read that to yourself.
03:14:53 Yes.
03:15:02 So you're you're making the point that stories are being fed to the media to under undermine either the victims of the use of force by the authorities
03:15:14 by the authorities uh or seeking justice in other ways. Would you accept though that the assertion that the intelligence came from the SDS was mistaken?
03:15:26 from the SDS was mistaken? No, not really. I I just I'm getting confused. the different campaigns I was definitely given it as an example of something that we were looking for but I'm saying the recollections of t time whatever I can't remember who it refers
03:15:37 whatever I can't remember who it refers to there was when was Ellison Christ 10 years ago or something like that so there was already confusion then over who it was and if that paper article
03:15:49 who it was and if that paper article means uh that was um Joy Gardner then then that that is that one I was definitely given an example once Again, I was probing. I was trying to find out,
03:16:08 I was probing. I was trying to find out, you know, what am I looking for when I'm out there? He gave the example and from my recollection of the account, it was that it originated from us. I didn't when he showed me the paper, I just thought I couldn't quite work out how they'd know beforehand uh of this person. So, it's the confusion on there. I'm still confused looking at that cuz I can't
03:16:21 looking at that cuz I can't differentiate between the campaigns. And in that last answer, he being HN86. 100% the HN86. It was It was me probing. I don't know. I'm I I want to go out. I
03:16:35 I don't know. I'm I I want to go out. I want to do what the DCI wants me to do. You know, there's no lying remmit. I need a bit of help with what sort of things we're looking for.
03:16:45 Can we take that document down now, please?
03:16:50 please? I want to go back to the list uh that we've talked about. Um I need you to respect people's privacy. Absolutely.
03:17:02 Absolutely. So, this will have to be written down, but can you recall specifically any names that were on that list? That's an easy one. No.
03:17:19 So, can I take it that they were not names which would have been immediately familiar to any special branch officer who knew about the far-left? The There was one name that came out here when I was sitting here that I recognized, but I've even forgotten what it was now. It's the same surname, Black, uh the lady from Arab, but I
03:17:37 Black, uh the lady from Arab, but I can't remember what her name was. And so that that name because I remembered at the time being black it's gone. It's gone already only a couple of days ago. So the lady from arrows she's not she's not
03:17:45 not Palmer black. That's the one. So that that was on there. Uh but other than that um so that's the first time actually having now um listen to the evidence here. So
03:17:58 now um listen to the evidence here. So when I was tasked all those years ago I could finally get one person on that list.
03:18:04 I beg you pardon you. Well, I could now if if the if the it's still outstanding
03:18:12 if if the if the it's still outstanding as a job to do. I've never completed it, you know. I'm just sort of this nut job who if I'm given a task, I'll do it to the end of time sort of thing. I was never stood down. Sort of like keep me on a leash. They let me go. Uh job job done. And I was never stopped from doing it. So, um that was there.
03:18:24 it. So, um that was there. Can I now be clear when the word it? What was it you were instructed to do
03:18:35 instructed to do to find out who those people were? They'd gone through special branch records.
03:18:37 records. Uh so it arrives wherever it arrives. I was saying I'd be very very surprised if it arrived directly on HN86 desk. So however it's arrived, it's arrived in the branch. The branch has special
03:18:49 the branch. The branch has special branch records. And you know if if people should be terrified the actual amount of names we used to have in there and they would go through you had a whole dedicated team of people in
03:19:03 whole dedicated team of people in special branch records whose entire job was looking through records. Uh they
03:19:14 was looking through records. Uh they obviously whittleled out names that were known to the branch came over left. As far as I was aware H&86 asked the officers who were out who were highlighted. He may have possibly asked another officer, which I can write down as well if you wanted to, another officer potentially from that lot. I
03:19:28 officer potentially from that lot. I think they whittleled down further and whittleled over list what was outstanding. Those officers would have obviously been aware that H&86 is
03:19:40 obviously been aware that H&86 is looking for it. Please watch out. But I then had it in the back office. One of the ridiculously menial things to do is if I saw it on a report come through, these are the names that we're looking out for when they come through. It's
03:19:54 out for when they come through. It's something that he wouldn't bog down uh the
03:20:00 the uh what do we describe as the manager, the reports manager, uh John Webb, uh wouldn't bog him down with that. He would have looked, he just deals with reports. It's just some one of the sort of rubbish jobs you get in the back office. And I kept it there. reports
03:20:12 office. And I kept it there. reports come through of these people here. This this Palmer Black was there. I'm going stop you there and ask you to write down the name of the other officer you you've mentioned.
03:20:29 We'll
03:20:56 show you that later as well.
03:21:10 the person you've written down, what was that person tasked to do? Am I allowed to say in relation to the list? Sorry, it's a bit weird. Uh, the same I'm sure H86 would have
03:21:25 Uh, the same I'm sure H86 would have literally said to this highly respected officer, "Do you know these people?" It's just inconceivable whether or not this officer knew where the list came. I I don't know. But it's just you'd ask him. I I'd be very very
03:21:37 just you'd ask him. I I'd be very very surprised if he turned around and would have known anybody. But H&86 is looking at intelligence void. So he's just making sure that the intelligence isn't there.
03:21:52 there. And what do you do? How do you go about executing the task? very poorly. I just have it in my uh thing for the duration. Uh I don't think I had got anybody on
03:22:06 Uh I don't think I had got anybody on there whatsoever. Then when I went out because of the task had been given to me, I then said to H86 whenever this is like several months later about half a year later that it it might you have the
03:22:19 year later that it it might you have the name with regards to these SDS officers, you have this mosaic effect. It wasn't called a mosaic effect then, but it was just the fact that maybe I'm out. I will come across some intelligence that shows that back in April, this person who I
03:22:34 that back in April, this person who I now identify, I don't know, for example, the leader of Panther UK, he's one of
03:22:44 the leader of Panther UK, he's one of the people came out here. So, the only relevance, H86 had asked the officers who were out there, I was the person going into the field that they knew almost nothing about. So it wasn't too much of a leap to think, well actually these people who we thought were leading the campaign would be maybe on that
03:22:59 the campaign would be maybe on that list. As it transpires, they weren't. I I didn't get a single one. Did I Did I hear you correctly that HN86 had asked the officers who were out there for that intelligence as well?
03:23:14 there for that intelligence as well? I'm about 99% certain he he would have asked because it's a ridiculous scenario otherwise.
03:23:22 And so if I've understood you correctly, you draw a blank whilst you're in the back office. You've said in previous statements you looked at other officers notebooks. Is that right?
03:23:34 notebooks. Is that right? Correct. Just cursory through it. Just to do a full job. Uh the officers had their notebooks uh which are in there. Just me being me. I had a quick look over their books. It's not a particularly hard task. Just having a quick look through the notebooks in case they'd feed because
03:23:47 notebooks in case they'd feed because the notebooks they write in a notebook for me. So from January the 6th or whatever it was 1993, I'm in the back office. I'm responsible for absolutely
03:23:59 office. I'm responsible for absolutely every single search that's done by every single officer. I'm the one who's ringing up special branch records. So somebody says, "Please search this." So really for me, when I was given this task, it's just the way I am. So when I was given the task, literally I went
03:24:11 was given the task, literally I went over the other officers books to make sure in case that already done it. It probably would have come up with a no trace then because they they they weren't there. So literally I just
03:24:22 weren't there. So literally I just checked over the the officer's books at the time just do the task properly that I was given to do. Did you get any feedback from HN86 when you presumably told him you haven't got anywhere with
03:24:37 anywhere with he was these people? wasn't a person who passed on compliments or thanks very much. It was just expected for me to do the job properly which I which I did for him.
03:24:53 Tomorrow I'm going to start by going back to the three area liaison officer. Uh I can tell you his name is Alan
03:25:04 Uh I can tell you his name is Alan Fischer. So I'll give you overnight to think about that name. Sir, may we rise for today? Yes. I'd just like to get to the bottom of this list. When you were in the back office, not deployed, but preparing yourself, as
03:25:22 not deployed, but preparing yourself, as all former undercover officers did uh to be deployed by doing work in the back office. Sir, you were asked by HN86 to look at a list of names which you
03:25:34 to look at a list of names which you believed had originated with the family liaison and officers at the Lawrence's home.
03:25:36 home. Yes.
03:25:47 Yes. To see whether you were able to identify those who were not already on the um special branch register. Yes,
03:25:48 Yes, it's as simple as that. There was nothing. Yeah, there was nothing more. And I'm obviously looking at a list that I've just given you all the names of everybody that I think HM86
03:26:02 the names of everybody that I think HM86 asked prior which them prior. So I don't know if any of those officers actually reduce that list or this is the original list right SB special branch records have done this oh and this officers
03:26:18 have done this oh and this officers found that that leaves these it's just I was left with this but I don't know how big all the various bits are you it's your assumption that the list you had was after uh someone else had been through the special branch register I
03:26:31 I that's not an assumption that's definite that's definite definitely told that and have been done. So, a a great deal has been made of this over the years and there's been a good deal of publicity about it. Uh what it
03:26:46 deal of publicity about it. Uh what it amounts to is no more than that you were asked to check a list of names which we know was produced by uh at least one of the family liaison officers uh in the first few days of being in the
03:26:58 first few days of being in the Lawrence's home to see if there was anybody not on special branch registry files.
03:27:05 files. Correct, sir. Thank you.
03:27:09 Right.