Peter Francis provides detailed testimony about his undercover deployment infiltrating Militant Labour and Youth Against Racism in Europe (YRE) in the mid-1990s. He describes the shift from the Kingsway anti-fascist group to militant labor, reporting on anti-racist campaigns, canvassing during local elections, and surveillance of racial justice campaigns including the Winston Silcott Defence Campaign and Oliver Campbell justice campaign. Key admissions include interfering with democratic processes by winning election as branch secretary, carrying baseball bats at YRE camp in Germany, extensive surveillance of democratically elected officials, and targeting racial justice campaigns.
00:14:27 Good morning everybody. Today's evidential proceedings are going to be uh broadcast but only after a 10-minute delay. Those with mobile devices may use
00:14:38 delay. Those with mobile devices may use them to transmit what they have heard in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're describing. They may not be
00:14:54 that they're describing. They may not be used for recording or photography. May I reiterate uh my uh warning that there must be no disturbance in the public gallery while the evidence of this witness is given. uh and my gratitude to those on the previous two days uh who have complied with that warning. Thank
00:15:12 have complied with that warning. Thank you, Mr. V. Thank you, sir. Mr. Francis, as I said at the close of yesterday's proceedings, we're going to move to militant labor. Now could you start by telling us succinctly in your own words how did that shift in your attention
00:15:29 how did that shift in your attention from Kings Kingsway College anti-fascist group to militant labor come about
00:15:43 group to militant labor come about it was as briefly as possible it was very evident to me early on as a matter of weeks uh that there was a good contact between in the Kingsway anti-fascist group and the Y in the fact that the Kingsway anti-fascist group itself was its own group that was affiliated uh to the Y.
00:16:02 group that was affiliated uh to the Y. So um and then you were obviously part of a bigger organization which at the time of my briefing we weren't aware of that. So as soon as I started realizing that that is the bigger organization, I then started to think well that is
00:16:14 I then started to think well that is where I need to start going to get more information and then realizing that the was a group very much dominated by militant. Um I then started to think
00:16:35 militant. Um I then started to think further ahead. If the turns out to be as good as hoped, I'll be heading towards militant. This isn't me having random thoughts by myself. This is me then going back to the officer in the charge at the time H86 and discussing with him what what was unfolding in front of me.
00:16:51 Can we move now to the document at your tab C29 please? Sir uh 34 463.
00:17:15 This is a report from the 12th of February 19 94 about Lewis. If we could have the text um expanded please. Uh and you are reporting at the start of that text that Lewis is a member of the national executive of Y along with
00:17:28 national executive of Y along with privacy by dent of their positions as organizers of the Y affiliated Kingsway
00:17:39 organizers of the Y affiliated Kingsway anti-fascist group. Um is that factually correct as far as you can recall? That was the word I was looking for was affiliated. Yes, that's correct. And
00:17:56 And can we take it from the fact that there were people outside of militant labor who had influence within Yre uh that you chose your wording carefully when you said dominated and it would not be fair to call Yre an ML front.
00:18:19 that be fair. But the positions within so the
00:18:21 so the Kingsway anti-fascist group was affiliated into the YRE. So the Kingsway anti-fascist group you could be you could have a position within the Kingsway anti-fascist group which meant
00:18:34 Kingsway anti-fascist group which meant you didn't have to be militant. Once the Y you started getting into the Y branches, uh positions within the Y branches were pretty much nearly always
00:18:48 always by militant labor members. So there is a degree of that it isn't a front group per se, but it's a very very close call. And I I I previously have always referred to it as being a front group, but I've listened to what the people
00:19:01 but I've listened to what the people have said in the course of the hearings and I accept that that that that's a better description than the the one I just gave you. Could we take that document down now, please? Can we move to the document at your tab C38, please, sir? 34 476.
00:19:21 Uh, page two, please.
00:19:32 Thank you. This is a report dated the 7th of March 1994 and it's significant to us is that it's the first report that we have recovered from you or based on your intelligence
00:19:52 from you or based on your intelligence about the Hackne branch of the Yre. And if we could look at uh paragraph uh three please
00:19:56 give you a moment to read that.
00:20:14 Yes. And that again is consistent with the evidence you've just given that it was dominated by militant labor but not exclusively so.
00:20:26 but not exclusively so. Correct. Can you help us with the Y's tactics? Would it be fair to say that their tactic was to win the battle against racism through mass action against far-right groups?
00:20:37 Yes. But they also had other strands as well regarding educating people uh work in the communities as well. But yes, the number one prime one is what you just said.
00:20:53 said. And that mass action was literally that facing them down by putting huge numbers of people on the streets and sometimes the circumstances uh not even that big numbers. They were always hoping for big numbers, but yes, sometimes there was less numbers
00:21:07 sometimes there was less numbers to show the far right they were unwelcome and would not be tolerated under this platform of the, you know, no no platform for fascists.
00:21:20 no platform for fascists. Uh, and would it be right turning to militant labor that they were always keen to recruit?
00:21:36 I I felt that militant labor there there's members of the wiry and militant labor members who are very concerned about the fascists the anti-fascist action anti-racist campaigns justice campaigns but militant labor itself as an organization that was
00:21:48 labor itself as an organization that was their primary goal was their recruitment in this and was there finances the the party doesn't work without finances. So you need to have a return on the
00:22:00 you need to have a return on the finances. So are they getting the two things they want? Money, increased membership.
00:22:08 In terms of your own journey from KFG into militant labor,
00:22:15 did you have any difficulty joining militant labor? I I didn't join for almost a year because I carried with a Kingsway anti-fascist group as well. So I was doing both at the same time for a
00:22:27 doing both at the same time for a period. But to actually become a member of militant labor, no, you wouldn't have had any problem to almost read read the paper, say you really really like them and join them. Is that
00:22:43 and join them. Is that no names please? Is it right that you joined
00:22:49 joined the Y and militant labor with another activist from KFG? Yes, I I took with me when I when I joined it was actually two two people uh two people came uh came as well at the
00:23:10 two people came uh came as well at the same time. uh when I left uh them uh I I made my feelings known that um I I felt it was a bigger better place to go to and a couple of people went with me but um I didn't feel as though I had to
00:23:22 um I didn't feel as though I had to encourage them I just felt that their time with otherwise the uh Kings anti-fascist group itself was probably coming to an end anyhow
00:23:33 coming to an end anyhow if I've understood that answer. You're expressing your discontent and explaining you're going to go to militant labor as a result. Might that have influenced either of those activists?
00:23:46 I can't say that possibly that it didn't, but I'm I'm hoping it it didn't that they didn't just join because they went over with me, but it certainly would have been part of it. Yes. I I I can't. Did you give any thought or was
00:24:03 can't. Did you give any thought or was it any concern to you that you might be influencing the political lives of members of the public? I didn't I didn't give it any thought uh whatsoever to it. But I've got to say
00:24:15 whatsoever to it. But I've got to say that both those people despite having ample opportunities I never actually created a file filer on either of them because they then became part of the hackne
00:24:25 hackne but they themselves never went in militant with any sort of positions uh positions of responsibility or uh became involved in the uh away team activities.
00:24:42 Lois Austin's evidence was that she knew you mainly as Pete Daly, but she also heard the name Pete Black. Would that be right?
00:24:55 right? The Daily bit I've always had a little bit I don't know. I I still can't quite understand the significance of it because I was always, as far as I was concerned, I was referred to very very occasionally by one particular member of
00:25:08 occasionally by one particular member of Militin with his name Pete Dailyy that I never made up. I had no idea where it came from, but it was in one particular branch. And when um Lois Austin actually said she knew him as me, I was
00:25:19 said she knew him as me, I was surprised. Uh but the black side is the name that I would give out uh if I went to meetings uh that weren't just
00:25:31 to meetings uh that weren't just militant or meetings. It was sort of it's not quite the idea of having a party name. There's some extreme um leftwing groups that actually have a party name system. Ours was more sort of protection that you just gave a
00:25:43 protection that you just gave a different name because you're never quite sure where the list of names ironically it might go to the state. Uh there's the irony involved with it, but there was also an aspect it might
00:25:59 there was also an aspect it might actually hand go in the hands of the BMP who actually had an active targeting campaign under something called Red Watch.
00:26:07 Watch. Could we take that document down now, please? And can we have up from your bundle, sir, tab C28 34 462.
00:26:24 This is a report dated the 18th of February 1994. It bears your cipher in the top right hand corner. It's a prospective report about a vigil that was planned for the 11th of February at the Altab Ali Park in Bethnol Green
00:26:40 the Altab Ali Park in Bethnol Green organized uh an event organized by the Y.
00:26:47 Y. If we could have the first the the text expanded pleased. Thank you. Following the serious assault of an Asian youth by whites in Bethnyl Green Road on Tuesday, Yre has decided to
00:26:58 Road on Tuesday, Yre has decided to attend the youth connection vigil to be held in the area tonight. Can I ask you
00:27:09 held in the area tonight. Can I ask you first of all what was your understanding of the group youth connection? Uh it was uh solely uh a group run by uh the Asian community uh because their Asian youth um you you
00:27:22 uh because their Asian youth um you you can't even begin to imagine how many uh Asian youths were being uh beaten up uh in that particular time period. And I I had nothing to suggest uh by intelligence that any of the um other
00:27:42 intelligence that any of the um other campaign groups, the wiry militant SWP had any controlling influence on that particular group. So it was a very independent uh Asian-run uh group.
00:27:55 independent uh Asian-run uh group. Goes on both Y and Youth Connection will be visiting schools in the area to rally support. Y has not issued a full call out as yet. source comment. Attempts will be made to stir up this emotive issue if the opportunity presents itself.
00:28:04 itself. Most participants believe that the initial assault was the result of a longunning disputes between gangs, but
00:28:25 longunning disputes between gangs, but they are nevertheless hoping to mobilize the Asian community. Can I ask you what you meant by if the opportunity presents itself
00:28:36 with in regards to this the date wise uh what what my main it's a wiry but I'm be under the mentions at the bottom I'm sure it was via the Kings anti-fascist group uh I I was going there and the
00:28:49 group uh I I was going there and the opportunity presented itself as if the Asian youth could be galvanized to take more more action.
00:29:02 to take more more action. Um it it's this very fine line with the wire was attempting to make sure that the area itself wasn't in fear of being attacked, which is totally fair enough as well. But they were trying to make the youth organized that if there was anything happening in
00:29:15 that if there was anything happening in the area, they'd sort of you go into the area, it'd be unsafe for other people to go into that area. They they had like a call out system if if this is the right
00:29:27 call out system if if this is the right pinpoint the right area. Uh but they had like a whistle call out systems in areas. So it was instead of just youth going along like protesting outside this venue it was taking back in the community building the community but
00:29:45 community building the community but becoming the word I'm using is becoming more militant to make sure it doesn't happen.
00:29:51 happen. The phrase stir up this emotive issue rather porative. I looking back at it now it's I don't think it's written up that well. But once again, I'm going to take myself slightly out the equation. That isn't
00:30:03 slightly out the equation. That isn't actually my word, my report, but I must have written something to the effect of the lines of uh that John Webb, who more than like would have written this report, wrote that. But yes, it's it's
00:30:20 report, wrote that. But yes, it's it's not it's not as accurate as what I I I I'm looking at it now, it should have been.
00:30:25 been. But would it be representative of what we might call the SDS mindset at the time?
00:30:31 time? I think yes the collective mindset at the time was that the Kingsway anti-fascist group the wiry and militant if they were involving themselves anywhere
00:30:41 anywhere to stir up the issue to try to make it more is this whole sort of idea of this sort of revolutionary uh party idea but yes I'd say it's more of a police come
00:30:56 yes I'd say it's more of a police come SDS mindset than maybe it actually was on the around. Most participants believe dispute between gangs hoping to mobilize.
00:31:08 mobilize. What were the grounds for your reporting intelligence that is written up in a way that is casting doubt on racial motivation for this attack?
00:31:22 motivation for this attack? It wouldn't have been that I was trying to portray something that wasn't happening. So for me to have received that uh I I would have actually heard
00:31:35 that uh I I would have actually heard that to say that I'm not attempting to change change what what what actually happened. So I I would have heard I you're probably going to ask where I I don't know but I would have reported that because I wouldn't have included otherwise if it was that it was known
00:31:49 otherwise if it was that it was known definitely that it was say for example the BNP or the combat 18 or something like that the intelligence would have been written that way uh because that
00:32:00 been written that way uh because that would have actually been more concerning uh than just feuds between uh Asian Asian community itself. It would have been more concerning. had the intelligence been that this definitely was rightwing uh which there
00:32:13 definitely was rightwing uh which there were a lot of assaults from like racists uh happening but if I for this particular reason wrote down this is what I felt that's what I would have accurately reported
00:32:28 accurately reported because the first paragraph specifically says in the f in the second line assault of an Asian youth by whites. Yes. And it's perfectly consistent even if it had a gang aspect that it was still a racist attack, isn't it? It is. Yes.
00:32:44 It is. Yes. And would it be right to say that the reality sadly in that part of London in that era where there was more than enough genuine racist attacks um that anyone wishing to protest didn't need to make one up?
00:32:58 make one up? No. The the amount of attacks was horrific at the time. We had two Kingsway students we mentioned. Yesterday just two students uh from that particular college uh were beaten up. They beaten up so severely just daily attacks, daily thumps and things like
00:33:11 attacks, daily thumps and things like this that wasn't even reported. That was almost just part of being being there. And again looking at the overall tone of this report, were you still at this relatively early stage of your deployment still very cynical?
00:33:30 deployment still very cynical? In what respect, please? cynical about the motivations of militant labor and the y
00:33:31 the y absolutely. And was that a cynicism shared within the SDS
00:33:37 the SDS through and through and special branch
00:33:45 certainly within not the hold of special branch certainly with the officers who were dealing on C squad. Yes. Can we take that document down now please? Could we have tab C30 34465?
00:34:05 Uh this is an event proformer uh for an event on the 1st of March 1994.
00:34:08 1994. Could we um first of all see the organization National Association of Teachers in Further and Higher Education, NAT.
00:34:19 NAT. And then could we have the text please?
00:34:26 Momentum is gathering amongst supporters of this strike which is now being publicized as a national education shutdown.
00:34:39 shutdown. It is hoped that students will join the strike and force the closure of most colleges and further education establishments throughout the country. On the face of it, this is a report about
00:34:52 about essentially purely industrial relations. Is that right? Certainly reading it. Yes. Did you get any management feedback for reporting intelligence purely about an industrial relations matter?
00:35:06 relations matter? As the there would be no interest in that. What there is interesting is the fact that uh with regards to the union the union the work of the unions that
00:35:18 the union the work of the unions that are there is there union mentioned down the bottom there. I can't can't quite see.
00:35:30 see. Well the union if we zoom out again so we can see the bottom of the document. The only mention of a union is at the organization row at the top we had initially NAT right well from my my perspective that still when I was at the Kingsway College so really I'm feeding in any intelligence into that the special
00:35:41 intelligence into that the special branch might want there's a special branch reference there isn't it 400 I can't read it 77 477 I think it says 58 so what we basically have is that particular union had a file since 1977
00:35:58 particular union had a file since 1977 in the special branch. So I came across some union intelligence. The the what the union was doing has got relevance uh you know relevance is questionable now but at that particular time uh because I
00:36:14 but at that particular time uh because I was reporting on a union and I mentioned yesterday with regards to you can't stick intelligence into the special branch without it going somewhere because what do you do lie around the drawer or something? this had a file
00:36:26 drawer or something? this had a file that it went on. So yes, in response to that, um I would have certainly had a thank you. I can't remember it along the lines of otherwise this report would never have got through the system. I
00:36:38 never have got through the system. I would just been told don't report on this matter. Okay. I've been asked if you could keep your voice up please. Sorry. But the
00:36:49 your voice up please. Sorry. But the picture I'm getting is that once a trade union has a file in this case opened 17 years before your reporting if special branch comes in into
00:37:02 if special branch comes in into possession of any information about the union it gets reported and filed. Is that fair? until whoever makes the decision and that's like you're saying that length of time that union no longer perceives in special branch ter this
00:37:14 perceives in special branch ter this subversive threat which we've gone over yesterday and the files closed. So had there been no file I would have done the check which we explained yesterday I write down on my book is there is there a file on this came back yes there is a
00:37:28 a file on this came back yes there is a file on this I submit a report but till the day that's closed and then just I won't go off too far I'll keep pulling me in but if I came across a member of the union
00:37:38 the union and they were in some sort of position within the union that does not require the five or six mentions that I mentioned yesterday says somebody is a union member and they're a member of
00:37:49 union member and they're a member of militant. You don't have to have six. You're going to have one. That's enough for you.
00:37:56 for you. Uh and the question I do want to ask you is what's striking about this this report that there's no mention of any far-left political influence. And so am I to understand that any information
00:38:09 I to understand that any information about the union's activities whether or not it's being influenced by the far-left would get reported because the file was open. if I came across that. Yes.
00:38:23 Yes. Could we take that down now, please? Um, could we have up uh C32 745901?
00:38:42 Uh, and could we go to page two, please? Uh this is a nominal upto-date and information performer dated the 11th of
00:38:56 information performer dated the 11th of March 1994 about Paul Heron. By the 11th of March 1994, how well did you know Paul Heron?
00:39:09 Reasonably well. But uh he was um you sort of saying mindfully because I'm where he's sitting here in the room as one of the solisters here. But he was a
00:39:22 one of the solisters here. But he was a friend uh of Lewis. So he was close to a friend of Lewis. I don't think I'd ever call myself as being a friend of Paul, but I knew him. Uh, and he definitely was one of the what I was talking about earlier about the people in the wiry and
00:39:35 earlier about the people in the wiry and militant who were very much dominated uh by Lewis and he certainly was one of those people. Uh, if we look under the PEX uh row, it says violent normally wears black leather jacket and jeans.
00:39:51 leather jacket and jeans. Can you help us now from your recollection what was the basis for describing Mr. Heron as violent?
00:40:02 Heron as violent? black leather jacket. Maybe that's where Lewis got the black leather jacket bit from. Violent with regards to violent that once again I would have had violent when necessary for Paul. And I've spotted on a couple of other ones and
00:40:15 spotted on a couple of other ones and yesterday I justified by other people uh violent when necessary. Uh Paul himself um he was more restrained but certainly um I can see him from here. uh if I was
00:40:27 um I can see him from here. uh if I was to go out in one of these lot small boat demos and stick a Naz in sitting next to him, uh I'm not quite sure how he'd react. So, he was more of a reactive one
00:40:39 react. So, he was more of a reactive one as opposed to there. Paul was contained, but he was he was he could violent. I certainly he could he could look after himself. He was a good uh comrade to have with you.
00:40:52 have with you. Did you ever personally witness Mr. Heron using force? Yes. Can you help us to the best of your recollection um
00:41:01 um what you recall as much as I can? It was when we were out canvasing uh in the Beckton area
00:41:12 out canvasing uh in the Beckton area under the BMP when they were doing some canvasing and we had a few runins, a bit of running away, a bit of uh also exchanging bits there. But I've definitely got I know that Paul
00:41:28 But I've definitely got I know that Paul within some of my memories uh there Paul definitely featured in in that and is definitely in the Beckton area because I'd also done quite a lot of canvasing with Paul and other people in that area.
00:41:42 with Paul and other people in that area. And in what way did you witness Mr. Heron being violent in a defensive capacity more than offensive? Although we did run after some BMPs sometimes who were canvasing but we didn't necessarily catch up with them at the time.
00:41:58 them at the time. Was that through lack of puff or was that because you were just trying to scare them off? I think scaring it depends on who you were with but yeah with with Paul if it's small enough group I think you've summarized it correctly. Three or four
00:42:09 summarized it correctly. Three or four people running towards you is enough to make them run away type thing. Did you ever witness Mr. Heron physically attack somebody? No.
00:42:23 No. Lois Austin gave evidence that she was with Mr. Heron uh leafleting the Plumstered Mana Girls School when confronted by uh a member of the far right and described them both running
00:42:35 right and described them both running away. Do you know anything about that? Yes, I do. And they've summarized the numbers between them. there was two and in that situation uh it would have been a good policy to run away. uh the no
00:42:51 a good policy to run away. uh the no platform was never engaged necessarily all the time and you sometimes had to think about maybe today is not the day to make a stand and I never ever saw I I'm very sure Lois could look after herself to a degree but uh yes I that
00:43:05 herself to a degree but uh yes I that was a good decision to run away and when I heard it I was aware that I' I'd heard that before an absence of courage to the point of madness
00:43:17 madness not necessary for every single uh member.
00:43:20 member. Could we um take that uh down now uh please? Did you canvas for the May 1994 local elections?
00:43:36 local elections? This is just where I mentioned this was all to do with the Beckton area. It was there was a lot going on. It's just difficult to imagine nowadays uh that the how many BMP they were trying to do the councils was tower hamlets becked in
00:43:48 the councils was tower hamlets becked in that particular area. There was a number of candidates standing. Were you canvasing with KFG or the Y? Uh no that uh the the Y part particularly militant
00:44:06 particularly militant uh their policy. Try to go ahead. It was in support they it's all to do with the politics. So they were supporting I believe could be wrong here. I think they were supporting the Labor the Labor uh people to try to get uh Beckton out or not reelected however it was which
00:44:23 or not reelected however it was which was a policy decision to support Labor. I think
00:44:27 I think when you were out canvasing for those elections
00:44:28 elections were there any precautions taken to avoid violence? Yes, the once again
00:44:39 avoid violence? Yes, the once again saying sorry the um militant were very careful with regards to it and um for example beforehand uh they they I'm not quite sure the situation that Lois and
00:44:50 quite sure the situation that Lois and Paul got themselves into that there was only two people uh that's very unusual. You'd normally always have a couple of what would regard as physically capable stewards uh out with the u canvasing
00:45:04 stewards uh out with the u canvasing group but they went further and this is uh what I was saying with regards to uh Mr. Heron there. Uh we actually I don't
00:45:18 Mr. Heron there. Uh we actually I don't know where it came from. We actually had a list of the BMP counselors to make sure that when we were out cans canvasing, we didn't accidentally with a group quite young people on these
00:45:33 group quite young people on these canvasing groups as well didn't actually knock on the door of a Nazi counselor, potential counselor. Uh I I was certainly aware when I went over to those areas and I because I had the van um I quite often drove around the areas
00:45:47 um I quite often drove around the areas I was very aware where actually the BMP counselors potential counselors uh candidates probably the right word uh actually lived. So they're they're not only making sure you had stewards saying I find it quite that only two people
00:46:01 I find it quite that only two people went out. I can't remember a situation ever that I was canvasing uh with a group that we didn't have as several people. I would have been regarded as one of the stewards who could actually look after the group, but I wouldn't be alone in that capacity.
00:46:16 alone in that capacity. Without repeating what you've told us about your experiences in relation to Mr. Heron, did you witness any violence whilst canvasing in May 1994?
00:46:25 1994? Yes.
00:46:27 Yes. Can you help us with who started it?
00:46:36 There are is we're talking a number of different incidents with a number of different canvasing things. So some of the it some of the BMP would take exception to the canvases being there
00:46:48 exception to the canvases being there and they would come over towards us or vice versa because they were out canvasing as well. And so it between the two of them, I can't remember who was more offensive which way round, but
00:46:59 more offensive which way round, but there certainly was an exchange of ideas and there's sometimes some running away and sometimes there was some fisty cuffs as well.
00:47:08 as well. Were you did you ever witness the group you were with physically launching an attack on the far right?
00:47:20 launching an attack on the far right? Exchange of fisty cuffs as opposed to a full launch and assault. But there was certainly was uh yes there was some fighting once again with what I can recall where and when type thing in self-defense or initiated by your group.
00:47:37 group. I liked your elastic interpretation yesterday. So there's a degree of it but occasionally they would uh fight as well.
00:47:49 Can we have a look please at C45 29662?
00:48:03 This is a report dated the 19th of April 1994 which bears Trevor Morris's nominal. Uh could we go to uh page three please
00:48:23 paragraph 10 under the heading Y R and just to correct you that wouldn't have been a Trevor Morris nominal it's it's me as well so it may been attributed to him but anything to do with the wir is me
00:48:34 with the wir is me yeah if it it's the top of the page you'll see SWPL is it likely this is a composite report very much so and I can remember this event Y RE regards the attack on Davidson as counterproductive. Members say that if the BMP is bombed and a candidate is partially blinded without
00:48:46 candidate is partially blinded without any apparent deterrent effect, then the only option is to persuade people not to vote for the party in pursuit of this Y members will not at present instigate
00:48:59 members will not at present instigate violence. Can you help us first of all with the background? What is a reference to an attack on Davidson?
00:49:16 to an attack on Davidson? And there's no way if I go anything to suggest a single member of the wiry militant was involved in that. And basically this is really stretching but you've asked I believe he was a candidate who was I think it was sent something through to his house or
00:49:30 sent something through to his house or something like that but uh he he was he was injured and then I certainly remember this the instigating violence the fact that not at present instigate
00:49:46 the fact that not at present instigate violence and I remember that pacifically coming out this had changed marketkedly uh that all of a sudden this sort of there was somebody had something as well with a serious eye injury. I don't know if this is the same person. So whoever
00:49:57 if this is the same person. So whoever but definitely not the wiry militant. I I I remember specifically that I was tasked again unwritten task was to find out if that was the group that I was in had Ali done that there's there was nothing to suggest what there there's
00:50:13 nothing to suggest what there there's you know we needed something like even title tackle I would have reported on but there was nothing to suggest our group was involved with it at all once again negative intelligence is positive it's helpful so so that was there but there was a very different shift
00:50:24 there was a very different shift afterwards as in whoever ever had done that had raised the temperature that we were now potentially on serious
00:50:38 were now potentially on serious assaults. And I don't know if uh Trevor mentioned it in this one, but we he he was very very lucky uh with with something that happened to him, but I don't know if it was that particular evening, but the temperature had
00:50:51 evening, but the temperature had seriously ranged. So I think beforehand there was an exchange of views which sometimes were physical. All of a sudden, we're talking about people being, you know, like bombed and people's eyes being, I don't know, permanent or blinded or something. That that's a whole different level. And the
00:51:05 that's a whole different level. And the wiry militant didn't want to go anywhere near there whatsoever. To be clear, Davidson, a member of the BMP, or am I misunderstanding? No, I would have thought he was a council candidate. One of these people put their names down,
00:51:16 put their names down, but I'm sure a quick Google of it uh would confirm it. Can we take that down now please? Can we have up your C48 sir 34484?
00:51:39 This is a nominal uh performer dated the 19th of April uh 1994. See at the bottom left it bears your uh nominal. If we could expand so we can
00:51:54 nominal. If we could expand so we can see everything from the name down to the bottom of the references, please.
00:52:01 So you can go up just to the bottom of the RF 405.
00:52:08 Thank you. See, this is a report about George Silcott. George Silcott being Winston Silcott's brother. Yes.
00:52:21 Yes. Um, and there's a telephone number which is the number for the Winston Silcot Defense Campaign. Uh, it reads, "George Silcot is standing as a justice candidate in West Green
00:52:32 as a justice candidate in West Green Ward, Tottenham in the forthcoming local elections. He is being supported by canvases drawn from many extreme left political groups. Silkot's simple manifesto is devoid of political
00:52:43 manifesto is devoid of political content, but he promises to work for
00:52:54 content, but he promises to work for justice for worthy prisoners, including his brother Winston Silcot, the M253 pole tax non-payers, and many more. George Silcot can be contacted on the above telephone number, which is that of the Winston Silkot Defense Campaign. So
00:53:08 the Winston Silkot Defense Campaign. So uh we are to understand are we that this is a man standing in a democratic election on the single issue of justice. Yes.
00:53:22 Yes. Uh as essentially part and parcel of advancing the Winston Silkot defense campaign.
00:53:23 campaign. Yes.
00:53:29 And this has this the fact of his candidature would have been in the public domain anyway as part of the democratic process. It certainly would have been and the consequence of
00:53:40 and the consequence of it being reported by you written up by your unit was that this information is all filed.
00:53:53 all filed. Yes. With the file that's shown down the bottom there.
00:54:07 And might it in due course lead to George Silcot getting a file of his own? Yes.
00:54:12 Yes. For standing in a democratic election in support of a racial justice campaign. Correct. But very interesting is actually what's shown there underneath
00:54:23 actually what's shown there underneath is the fact that Winston Silcot who you know certainly the Metropolitan Police were did not like um he has got his own RF there. Now I don't know if there's
00:54:41 RF there. Now I don't know if there's anywhere ever to suggest uh that Winston Silkot was a subversive at all but he had his own file created in 86. Obviously shortly after the Tottenham riots he became of interest the special branch purely
00:54:56 branch purely as Winston Silkcott and you and so I was trying to think of an example where somebody can become so concerning to the Metropolitan Police that they can actually forget subversion entirely and
00:55:08 actually forget subversion entirely and they will create a file on anybody they
00:55:19 they will create a file on anybody they get upset with and you upset them enough you can get your own file. And this 405 is that's that's sort of like they can stick anybody in that that category because he's not left as a 402. He's not left uh no other numbers as well. So George there
00:55:35 George there is really being reported on because his brother has got a RF file. But getting back to your question you asked me, sorry if I've rambled off, but yeah, George if he'd done enough mentions he would get his own file. uh and I
00:55:47 would get his own file. uh and I actually reported on this because George uh came not just on one occasion, several occasions to the Kingsway
00:55:59 several occasions to the Kingsway College, but if we then step back what I was trying to say earlier, I was always trying not to create special branch files on people. So despite George coming several times to college, I think I might report it on him maybe once, maybe twice.
00:56:16 Can you help us with how this comes to be reported? By which I mean, were you specifically asked uh to find intelligence about George Silcot, the Winston Silkcott defense campaign?
00:56:37 Winston Silkcott defense campaign? Or was this opportunistic in the sense you came across it and considered it part of your standing brief? opportunistic definitely, but with me always at the back of my mind, could I possibly find
00:56:49 back of my mind, could I possibly find something on George or Winston, send it in the system as the same as I would have done for any other black justice campaign. I I that that's that's where that's where my mindset was at the time.
00:57:00 that's where my mindset was at the time. Can you recall whether there was any specific management reaction to this report? it's gone on to file but nobody came out then extra said oh can you definitely try to find something uh
00:57:15 definitely try to find something uh extra on George or anything like this so no just done the report I would have thought pretty similar to what's actually been written here it wouldn't have had to be changed too much but no feedback like please find some more or anything else like that just accepted
00:57:32 anything else like that just accepted could we take that down now please can we have up from your bundles tab C51 745 5897,
00:57:35 745 5897, please.
00:57:39 please. We're going to election night on Thursday the 5th of May, 1994.
00:57:44 If we could have page two, please.
00:57:53 Uh the report is about events at York Hall, Old Ford Road, E2. Um and the organizations being militant labor and Y.
00:58:02 Y. Uh could we look at the text please?
00:58:11 Militant and YR organizers were disappointed at the poor turnout by their supporters to oppose the BNP which was expected to do well in the local elections in Tower Hamlets. Only 40 of
00:58:23 elections in Tower Hamlets. Only 40 of the expected 80 activists showed up, a phenomenon bravely attributed to other militant labor commitments. The result of the poor showing led the more
00:58:45 of the poor showing led the more aggressive activists present to abandon any hostile intentions towards the BMP and to concentrate on instead on defending their YML comrades from attack by the Nazis andor the police. Can you help us? Was there any evidence of hostile intentions on
00:59:00 any evidence of hostile intentions on the part of those you were mixing with towards the far right that evening? Yes, as my report suggests and certainly I
00:59:12 as my report suggests and certainly I mentioned yesterday as well as something that I'm actually pleased it's written down here is the fact that the militant made the decision that the away team section their responsibility on the
00:59:27 section their responsibility on the evening because the numbers were so low was to ensure only the safety of the actual group that was there. Had the numbers have been sufficient then
00:59:39 numbers have been sufficient then whatever on the evening whether or not to actually get into the uh council elections or to you know whack the odd hapless skin here wandering around. I can't remember specifically on the evening what the other intention was but
00:59:54 evening what the other intention was but it's a definite example whereby the away team section had the numbers been sufficient they then would have done potentially something else. um out there but it does show that militant
01:00:10 but it does show that militant the stewards their primary concern was looking after their members which I don't think I'd emphasize enough but I did actually emphasize in this report. Can we be clear? Is this your assessment
01:00:21 Can we be clear? Is this your assessment of the mood and what might have happened or did you have any concrete information to the effect that people if numbers
01:00:38 to the effect that people if numbers were sufficient uh would uh attack the BMP? I I would have been then part of that aggressive away team and obviously I must have been aware some saying headwise going back to demos but I would have been made aware that extra
01:00:52 have been made aware that extra activities awaiting activities were hoped for but on the evening whoever it was in charge of the activities that evening
01:01:01 evening um was stood down. To what extent was the away team amanable to the discipline of uh the party?
01:01:15 party? I think I think to a great extent they were very disciplined but they were allowed they were allowed to do other activities but stressing that their
01:01:28 activities but stressing that their number one priority as stewards was always to look after people in the demonstration. Could we take that down please? And could we have up uh the document at your tab C-56 sir 34492
01:01:50 moving to the outcome or at least the outcome in one of these local elections 17th of May 1994 see on the towards the top on the left this report uh bears your nominal It's
01:02:11 this report uh bears your nominal It's about Mr. Phil uh Maxwell who is a Tower Hamlet's counselor uh associated with militant labor. Uh after the usual descriptions under the PEX row, it says homosexual.
01:02:24 homosexual. And then if we could have the text um blown up. I should have pointed out there's also a registry file number already there uh for him. Uh
01:02:36 already there uh for him. Uh and this as we can see top right is copied to the security service. A trit question but the fact of Mr. Maxwell's reelection uh which is what
01:02:48 Maxwell's reelection uh which is what this report is about would be a public matter.
01:02:55 If we look at what the report says, you are reporting on Mr. Maxwell's reelection for the St. Peter's ward in Tower Hamlets with an increased majority, a result of which he is very
01:03:15 majority, a result of which he is very pleased. Uh the increased majority would be a matter of public record and the result that he was very pleased presumably self-evident. Yes,
01:03:19 Yes, he attributes much of his success to the efforts of his ML and Y comrades who canvased on his behalf virtually every day throughout [clears throat] the local election campaign. He has privately expressed to trusted associates the
01:03:34 expressed to trusted associates the views outlined below. Maxwell is also pleased at the defeat of the British National Party, presumably that would be also pretty self-evident.
01:03:46 also pretty self-evident. and at the loss of their one and only counselor. He does not however underestimate the continuing threat in the burough from the Nazis pointing out that the BMP had a greatly increased
01:04:02 that the BMP had a greatly increased number of votes. And so uh that again a an observation based on a publicly available fact namely the number of votes.
01:04:16 Uh yes. Uh there's nothing very surprising about anything recorded here, is there? With the exception of that it shows a potential change of temperature with
01:04:31 potential change of temperature with regards to the fact the voting has gone up. Um
01:04:34 up. Um so for our intelligence purposes, I was putting it in to note that that It's not a problem that's gone away. So had the BNP's vote gone to zero or virtually
01:04:49 BNP's vote gone to zero or virtually zero, that would be a different future temperature in the area. Sorry, I just say one thing that I, you know, I was aware that we done it quite often. That's when you asked about what event when were the Nazis confronted
01:05:04 event when were the Nazis confronted when when weren't there. There was a lot of lots and lots of canvasing virtually every day for a long period that we were over there.
01:05:17 Putting aside now the signi the significance or otherwise of what is recorded. This is reporting on a democratically elected official isn't it?
01:05:23 it? Correct. There is was there any reaction from your managers to this?
01:05:38 managers to this? No because um with regards to Democratic elected um it didn't matter. Um, I think when you had the evidence given by Commander Gun here, he expressed very
01:05:49 Commander Gun here, he expressed very clearly it didn't matter if we regarded them as subversives. It did not matter that they were MPs, counselors, whatever. And certainly when I was deployed, uh, I was given no cautionary, nothing whatsoever that I couldn't report on MPs or counselors that were
01:06:04 report on MPs or counselors that were there, no guidance. And when Commander Gun actually said it, that was he described them the same as anyone sort of in the street. He regards them the same.
01:06:12 same. I was very surprised Commander Gun was actually that open and honest, but that was certainly my feeling when I was deployed.
01:06:23 deployed. Uh the report describes Mr. Maxwell as homosexual. Uh the inquiry's understanding is that Mr. Maxwell is openly gay. We have not redacted made
01:06:35 openly gay. We have not redacted made any privacy redactions for that reason. Was it your understanding that Mr. Maxwell was openly gay at the material time?
01:06:39 time? If I wrote a report, yes. What was the point of reporting that a Democratically elected militant uh
01:06:57 Democratically elected militant uh candidate was homosexual? It just was reported in the special branch like that.
01:07:02 that. Could we take that document down now please?
01:07:07 please? Could we have up from C58 34495?
01:07:24 Uh page two please. This is a report dated the 14th of June 1994.
01:07:33 1994. Bottom left it bears your nominal. Top right shows it's been shared with the security service. Um if we uh look
01:07:47 security service. Um if we uh look please at the bottom half of the text for context this is about uh the Dagenham bi-election. in which John Tindle, the BMP leader, was standing for parliament. Do you recall
01:08:00 recall John Tindle's campaign in Dagenham? Very vaguely. Yes. It says this leaves the activists who do turn out vulnerable to attack by the
01:08:11 turn out vulnerable to attack by the extreme right which deters even more people. The state of apathy was demonstrated by the recent Dagenham
01:08:23 demonstrated by the recent Dagenham bi-election Yre London call out on the 9th of June which attracted only 34 activists. With the small number of Y members present and the complete absence of any other anti-fascists,
01:08:36 other anti-fascists, the stewards on the night called off the planned demonstration, claiming that 50 or so Nazis were drinking nearby and seemed prepared for a fight.
01:08:47 a fight. And then you've listed uh the stewards. I've drawn attention to this passage uh
01:09:02 I've drawn attention to this passage uh because on the face of it you appear to be reporting that the Y cannot safely uh canvas in Dagenham in this particular
01:09:18 uh canvas in Dagenham in this particular election even when there are 34 of them. Is that a fair reflection of the ground situation at the time? Correct. with the stewards making the decision they did, which I'm saying I haven't emphasized it enough, but the the safety of their members was always
01:09:33 the safety of their members was always paramount. The the the intel there about the pub um highly likely was one of those very spotters we talked about uh yesterday who made the assessment. You know, that's some bottle to go either
01:09:50 know, that's some bottle to go either into the pub or very close to it. Uh so the uh and that's away member spotter. Um you know that's um that was some kudos to him to do that to pass that intelligence back. Can you help us whether this was a particularly
01:10:02 particularly um tense election because it was the leader of the BNP standing for parliament or whether it was generally
01:10:17 or whether it was generally representative of the temperature on the streets in 1994? No, John Tindle is a different level compared to a local counselor. So yes, it's a higher is a high temperature in your woods.
01:10:30 your woods. Can we take that down now, please? And can we go to tab C59 34915?
01:10:44 Can we go to page two, please? I was just going to say all those security service things I've never seen in my life before. So, we never had that feedback when I was out. I'm going to Sorry,
01:10:51 Sorry, in a little when we get to one particular of your reports, I'm going to dwell on that. um for the moment. Um can we go to page three? Sorry,
01:11:03 we go to page three? Sorry, I haven't seen that thing you just shown. Can you go back to whatever? I don't I don't even know what that is.
01:11:24 That's an extremely unusual report. I I unless they change the format or something, I don't know, maybe from the desk. I've never seen that form in the life before. Can we go to page three, please? What I'm interested in is the actual report itself. Um,
01:11:38 itself. Um, this is a report of the 14th of June again shared with uh the security service. And uh could we have the first paragraph please?
01:11:54 Youth Against Racism in Europe has decided to withdraw from the campaign started after the attacks on two Asian Shahid Eudin and Tunamia in East London at the end of May. This is despite
01:12:11 at the end of May. This is despite having initially supported the campaigns and having participated in demonstrations. One reason for the withdrawal is the heavy burden of other commitments which the 70 or so core activists of Yre have been under. Another is the open
01:12:23 been under. Another is the open hostility shown by the families of the victims to outside agitators. Y leaders have told the campaign organizers that they may become involved again if the
01:12:37 they may become involved again if the issues are still around in a few weeks time.
01:12:38 time. Can I ask you to focus on that second reason, the open hostility shown by the families of the victims to outside agitators.
01:12:54 outside agitators. Can we take it from this report that the Y
01:13:00 Y backed away from supporting a family campaign
01:13:05 campaign as soon as the family made plain they were not welcome. They Yes. And they would do that if the family said uh you know we don't want you here. I don't think there's anything to suggest the wiry would try to pester pester anybody. And in your experience
01:13:18 pester anybody. And in your experience of the Y and their support of um racial justice campaigns, family racial justice campaigns, is that those they were
01:13:34 campaigns, is that those they were supporting, they were doing so uh with the consent of the families.
01:13:44 Certainly, I can't think of a single example that they were there. They may use the name of something like they might organize something on behalf of uh but they they certainly if they've been told to leave leave or not come to
01:13:55 told to leave leave or not come to meetings things like that they wouldn't do it anymore. Can we take that down now please? Can we have the document at your C60, sir? 745893.
01:14:17 And if we could go to page two, please.
01:14:26 This is a report dated the 21st of June 1994.
01:14:36 1994. It's about the militant labor weekend at Marxist uh school that was held on the 11th and 12th of June 1994 at the University of London. It's a long report and it's got a leaflet uh about the event uh attached to it.
01:14:51 the event uh attached to it. Can you recall attending this event? Uh was it openly advertised?
01:15:01 It would have been openly advertised. Yes.
01:15:09 Yes. Uh and if we look at paragraph two, the school consisted of a series of talks, lectures, and discussions spread over two days with rallies at the end of each day's proceedings. There was a
01:15:24 each day's proceedings. There was a social on the Saturday evening at the city of York public house in Hihoven which had been organized by Pete uh McGreel. Um and if we look at paragraph three
01:15:37 we see a list of the speakers uh and the sessions that they were delivering. I'll give you a moment to refresh your memory uh of those.
01:16:03 Yes. Uh and would it be fair to say this was an exercise in political education? Yes, it was. Uh openly advertised as you say. Yes. Uh, could we go to page four, paragraph 6, please?
01:16:20 Future ML events announced included the Yre International Summer Camp, which was heavily sold throughout the weekend. The camp will be held in Germany between the 13th and 20th of August. Other events
01:16:32 13th and 20th of August. Other events announced were and then there's a youth weekend school, summer camp and a militant students weekend school in Liverpool all set out. We'll be coming
01:16:43 Liverpool all set out. We'll be coming to the camp in Germany in more detail in due course. But essentially this is a selection of lawful uh political events uh being advertised, isn't it? It is. Yes.
01:17:03 It is. Yes. Would it be fair to say on the topic of uh the Marxist education that militant labor uh were Tropskyers seeking to build a mass movement for the purpose of changing society? Correct.
01:17:13 Correct. And their long-term aim was to bring about a socialist society uh with a different form of democracy to that we enjoy at the moment
01:17:25 enjoy at the moment with the sort of potential of a revolution to get there within the mix. Yes.
01:17:30 Yes. And would it be uh fair to say even without the
01:50:50 And please 34506
01:50:59 and can we have paragraph three please?
01:51:10 Security at the site was provided by members of the various national YR groups. The methods employed demonstrated the extraordinary paranoia experienced by some participants. The
01:51:23 experienced by some participants. The main fear was of a mass attack by Nazis on the camp. The ins entire site was surrounded by barricades which were manned round the clock by a minimum of 40 Y stewards. The conduct of the
01:51:36 40 Y stewards. The conduct of the stewards varied considerably from the wellorganized and disciplined to the anarctic and highly dangerous. All stewards patrols were armed with weapons namely baseball bats and gas pistols
01:51:48 namely baseball bats and gas pistols which had been provided by the German JRE
01:51:50 JRE members of which were unconstrained by
01:52:02 members of which were unconstrained by border crossings. Going to stop there. Did you perform guard duty yourself? Very regularly. U my it was being part of the wre camp is to be quite social but the far as I regarded it as often as I could do uh the stewarding meant I had an
01:52:19 the stewarding meant I had an opportunity uh to walk around with other um stewards particularly ones that are hoping were away team members. And then you'll certainly see that report we referred to yesterday. I very rapidly
01:52:40 referred to yesterday. I very rapidly had a bigger list uh of away members and people being able to participate and so people are prepared to do stewarding there. Um yes I done stewarding not every not every single night but I volunteered as much stewarding there. The the minimum but 40 stewards is the entire stewarding uh group.
01:52:55 entire stewarding uh group. Did you carry a weapon when conducting these duties? A baseball bat. And who issued you the baseball bat? They they were the German wire members. They had quite a
01:53:06 They had quite a plank sort of like proper bits of wood. Not like sort of rubbish, little bits of wood, proper bits of wood. Uh baseball bats. I did mention there these gas
01:53:20 bats. I did mention there these gas pistols, but that was a couple of like the old um riot smoke gas pistol the flare things that the actual ironically the police would use for gas more than the actual protesters but e easy to get uh eastern blockwise but we
01:53:42 easy to get uh eastern blockwise but we weren't given them uh the J I don't know if they were own personal personal ones but we weren't given that but we were given the baseball bats And were any [clears throat] of your target group from London
01:53:56 to your personal knowledge i.e. did you see them carrying baseball bats? Yes, there there was we felt as the group along the lines of what I just explained to you uh that u there there was a potential like I explained that there
01:54:12 potential like I explained that there could be attack whether or not everybody was aware of it. I would have thought the vast majorities weren't but certainly the stewards who were doing the stewardings they weren't wandering around thinking nothing was going to happen. And it was quite quite a tense
01:54:23 happen. And it was quite quite a tense which added a different level of stress to me is you know I I certainly felt there was a chance that something might happen to us when we were wandering around.
01:54:32 around. The report goes on members of the Berlinbased anarchist Black Block were not content with such toys and brought
01:54:45 not content with such toys and brought with them their own arsenal of firearms including
01:54:47 including assault rifles.
01:54:56 Did you personally see an assault rifle? No.
01:55:13 Did any of the London activists you traveled with speak to you about assault rifles?
01:55:20 rifles? No, this is purely from the U. Well, I'm interested in your direct knowledge. [snorts]
01:55:26 Coming back to baseball bats,
01:55:36 senior leaders of ML and Y who were present. Was Lois Austin there?
01:55:47 who were present. Was Lois Austin there? Yes. Well, without looking, but I Yes, she she was. I think she was definitely there. Can you tell me whether or not you saw
01:55:50 you saw Lois Austin in a position where she would have known able to see baseball bats.
01:56:07 She herself, as far as I recall, did no stewarding at all. So, she wouldn't been issued one. I certainly think it was
01:56:18 issued one. I certainly think it was quite evident that there was a lot of people who were doing the stewarding certainly at nighttime were walking around with baseball bats. Whether or not she's I would have thought she would have saw it. I would have thought she would have seen it.
01:56:30 would have seen it. Can you help me with did did you direct whether or not you directly saw her in circumstances where you can confirm she did?
01:56:38 did? No, I I can't. Same question for Hannah cell.
01:56:38 cell. No, I can't.
01:56:46 Can we uh take that document down now, please? [laughter] Can we have up from tab C83 34513?
01:57:02 Uh could we have uh from this report of the 27th of September 1994 paragraph uh one expanded? It bears your cipher and was copied.
01:57:13 cipher and was copied. Sorry, I missed the date. I was still back in Germany. 27th of September 1994. So by which date I would have been a branch secretary.
01:57:29 branch secretary. Well, this is precisely it. This is the the report on the Y September 94 branch elections
01:57:31 elections [snorts]
01:57:31 [snorts] recites that you were elected branch secretary and the executive delegate to
01:57:43 secretary and the executive delegate to the forthcoming London Y executive. Give you a moment just to absorb the text.
01:58:19 Okay. Thank you. Would I be right to understand that you were by this stage the militant labor endorsed candidate? Yes, I was.
01:58:31 Yes, I was. And it follows from the text of this report that in that election, you beat the real candidate uh to the position of London uh of of
01:58:43 uh to the position of London uh of of the executive delegate to the London Y executive. And yes, and had I had I'd remembered that that added to Lewis's
01:58:54 that that added to Lewis's sort of not best view of me. And tool reading that I know supposed to read everything but I haven't read everything and I I wasn't
01:59:08 haven't read everything and I I wasn't aware of that at all but yes this this definitely rings a bell as in why the aminosity certainly arked up another level
01:59:10 level because the consequence for real was that their candidate was only able to secure the position of deputy delegate correct
01:59:17 correct was the role of secretary contested
01:59:31 I'm going to guess. I I can't remember. Coming back then to the contest for executive delegate to the London Y executive. Can you recall how close the voting was? No. No. Sorry, I can't.
01:59:47 No. No. Sorry, I can't. Would it be fair to say then that by standing in a Y branch election for the role of executive delegate to
02:00:02 for the role of executive delegate to the London Y executive and beating the real candidate, you have effectively interfered with the democratic internal processes of um the group.
02:00:20 processes of um the group. Wow. Yeah. Never thought about that in my entire life, but yes, 100%. But yeah, not a thought crossed my mind and certainly not a manager's thought cross their minds either. And the role of secretary gave you access to membership details very much so.
02:00:31 very much so. Standing within the branch and wherever I wanted to go, I I no longer needed to have a Lewis with me. I
02:00:47 longer needed to have a Lewis with me. I was now the branch secretary endorsed by militant labor. I cannot possibly be a spy. It was it's it's a huge lever of armor around you. And I certainly if I thought the Kingsway anti-fascist group and the real would have been the same
02:00:59 and the real would have been the same intelligence thing, I would have stood very very quickly the same in the real
02:01:14 very very quickly the same in the real cuz to be able to say that you are the treasurer or the secretary somewhere. Surely that organization would never have you if you weren't legitimate. Apart from giving you access to membership details and a certain standing, did it give you access to any other new level of intelligence?
02:01:29 other new level of intelligence? Just at a different level of trust. Whoever you met who was in militant, you know, I would always introduce myself uh that I was the, you know, it was it was
02:01:45 that I was the, you know, it was it was branch secretary before Peter Johnson. I wanted them fused in their head who I was. So I could literally I could go anywhere as long as there was some relevant to the campaign. If I went to the M11 campaign, they couldn't care less who I am. But within left-wing circus, I could walk into a workers power meeting. I could then go into
02:01:59 power meeting. I could then go into other meetings. It was additional layer. Very very big additional layer. Can we take that down now please? Can we have the document which is at your C85, sir? 745870.
02:02:27 Uh could we go to page two please? This uh is uh a report headed campaign for justice reference no trace. And if we could we believe it to date from November 19 94.
02:02:43 94. If we could have the first substantive paragraph expanded, please.
02:02:55 A self-explanatory leaflet concerning Oliver Campbell, copy attached, has been produced by yet another front organization of militant labor, ML, campaign for justice, which along with this case is actively involved in many
02:03:08 this case is actively involved in many other so-called miscarriages of justice, including Winston Silcot, the Langden Park 4 Defense Campaign, and numerous others.
02:03:17 others. uh the leaflet itself. If we could go to the reverse of the leaflet which is just a few pages on.
02:03:38 Thank you. If we look at the bottom paragraph under the bullet point, what can be done? This leaflet makes very clear the groups that are involved in this campaign, doesn't it? Yes.
02:03:51 Yes. And this leaflet presumably circulated to the public. It would have been given out to the public as well. Yes.
02:04:02 public as well. Yes. Um so nothing unlawful or secretive about this activity? No.
02:04:10 And there's no intelligence. Uh perhaps we should go back actually if we go back to the main body of the report and if we could uh expand the rest of the substantive text i.e. from Oliver Campbell down to headquarters. Thank
02:04:22 Campbell down to headquarters. Thank you. I'll give you a moment to look at that.
02:04:39 Thank you. No specific intelligence here that would be useful for maintaining public order.
02:04:53 Certainly not that I can see there. Um if we can go back to the reverse of the leaflet please.
02:05:05 Um and if we could just look at the paragraphs under the bullet point. Why was he convicted and why has this miscarriage of justice taken place? Give you a moment to familiarize yourself again with that. But the question is going to be this is a
02:05:20 question is going to be this is a campaign that was highly critical of the police, wasn't it?
02:05:32 [clears throat] Very
02:05:41 evidently so. Mr. Campbell's racial origin, so you can see from the photo he was black.
02:05:58 Was this information reported by you for the reasons you explained in the first two days of your evidence here? Correct. Solely for it. Was there any management reaction to this report?
02:06:10 management reaction to this report? Accepted u with what I've reported. There was no criticism. I was passing intelligence back. So the STS was not a place where you got a lot of praise. Uh but the acceptance that it was accepted.
02:06:24 but the acceptance that it was accepted. I I was providing intelligence that they wanted.
02:06:28 wanted. Nobody telling you not to do it? of 100% mate.
02:06:39 of 100% mate. Was there any discussion within the SDS that you can recall of the Oliver Campbell justice campaign? No, other than what I was reporting on there. Uh that that's what the
02:06:52 there. Uh that that's what the discussion would have been is this is what I'm reporting on. Um I saying I don't know if other officers needed constant reminding, constant retasking. Uh I was very clear with what my remitt was out there. I just somebody doesn't
02:07:03 was out there. I just somebody doesn't need to be told over and over again what I need to do. Uh can we take that down now please? Although for the record I going to make
02:07:17 Although for the record I going to make clear that as far as the inquiry is cons is aware uh this Oliver Campbell is the same Mr. Oliver Campbell who had his conviction overturned in September of last year after 33 years. I wasn't actually aware of that at all because
02:07:28 actually aware of that at all because I'm not not keeping sort of up to date with anything. Then could we have up from C13245
02:07:47 203 245 209 please on your privacy schedule this is number 12 Mr. Francis. Thank you.
02:07:58 you. This is a report on an individual. Once you've refreshed your memory as to who that is. Oh, good.
02:08:10 good. It's dated the 21st of June, 1995. Can we look at the text, please?
02:08:21 Privacy is a long-standing member of ML and Yre. He's the organizer of the Justice for Oliver Campbell campaign. Campbell having been a member of Privacy's Yre branch before his conviction for murder. Um,
02:08:34 conviction for murder. Um, can I take it then that uh you felt it fell well within the ambit of your instructions to report on a militant labor activist simply because
02:08:49 militant labor activist simply because he was organizing the justice for Oliver Campbell campaign and because he is organizing an event once again uh that goes in a different category. I don't know if this gentleman had a file, but certainly uh by becoming
02:09:04 had a file, but certainly uh by becoming an organizer within militant for justice campaign like that, it certainly would fast track you to getting your own file. He does have a a registry file number. We've redacted it.
02:09:19 We've redacted it. Can we take that down now, please? Can we go to Remembrance Sunday 1994? Your tab 88, sir. C88 34521.
02:09:32 If we could expand that. First of all, the date is the 19th of September of November 19. Sorry, 18th of November 1994.
02:09:45 1994. I'll give you a moment just to um absorb the text again. It's got to be Oh, sorry. Thank you.
02:09:54 I definitely need a little bit bigger because I can't stick my head through without knocking the microphone. It's the main text. If we start at some 25 activists. Thank you.
02:10:17 Yeah, this is this nightmare I mentioned yesterday about the fight in the bog we had.
02:10:18 had. D in my head again. Yes. Uh so can I take it from that answer? You were there. Yeah.
02:10:31 Yeah. Um are you able to help us with who started the fighting? It was a recognition between opposing forces. This is these were the combats. These are the ones you just don't want to meet particularly coming out of the bog. I don't know if I was going in or
02:10:45 bog. I don't know if I was going in or coming out, but there was a couple of us going down to the bulle coming out and it just kicked off in the L. The combats recognized us. We recognize them and there was an exchange of political
02:10:56 there was an exchange of political views, but we didn't set it out. It was just we're not friends. We're not friends. It kicked a very confined space. This was a this was this was definitely an event because I've scaled fir firmly lodged in my head that one.
02:11:15 fir firmly lodged in my head that one. Mr. Smith has given evidence to the inquiry that his there was an ankle injury, but he sustained it on a building site. Are you able to help us with whether or not from your direct knowledge you can tell us
02:11:30 knowledge you can tell us how Mr. Smith sustained an injury to his ankle?
02:11:38 ankle? I wasn't going to say, but he was there. He was there with me uh when this all kicked off. And Frank uh you know violent like nut job violent. He definitely had no leg injury before uh the skirmish afterwards. He definitely
02:11:50 the skirmish afterwards. He definitely had a limp. How he then wanted to write it up with his workforce when he got to work on Monday is entirely up to him. I think actually my report is something about I thought he might have even broken his ankle because he you know
02:12:02 broken his ankle because he you know Christ had to drag him out the place. It was he was he was hurt but Frank yeah if you had a they didn't have a very violent category in the branch. Uh but I
02:12:15 violent category in the branch. Uh but I would have happily given him you know no disrespect he could he could fight he could fight like a good he was a good good fighter. Uh but yeah that that's he did not he definitely had his injury from from this particular skirmish.
02:12:31 from from this particular skirmish. Can we take uh that document down now please?
02:12:33 please? Could we have up from C92745868?
02:12:50 If we can go to page two, please.
02:13:02 The gentler subject of Christmas cards. Thank you. Good. That's a good headsp space. Thank you very much. 14th of December 1994. If we could have uh the text plus the special branch references in paragraph 2. Thank you. Winston Silopot Defense
02:13:15 2. Thank you. Winston Silopot Defense Campaign has changed its address and is now based at then and there's an address and a telephone number. The Winston Silcot Defense Campaign has a bank account number 91155962
02:13:31 account number 91155962 at the Midland Bank. Bank details. WSDC is being supported extensively uh by militant labor. The attached leaflet and Christmas card uh were
02:13:44 leaflet and Christmas card uh were distributed at a recent Y conference in London. And then we see there's a name we've redacted as mentions. The Winston Silcot Defense Campaign is recorded there as mentions. We saw a different
02:13:59 there as mentions. We saw a different record earlier. And there's a militant uh labor
02:14:01 uh labor uh file number. How did you obtain the information about address, bank
02:14:12 the information about address, bank account, telephone numbers, that sort of thing?
02:14:14 thing? I would have thought that would have been on that on the actual leaflet Christmas card thing. I don't know it. I'd be very surprised if because I've referred to it because it says the attached leaflet. Uh I would be very
02:14:27 attached leaflet. Uh I would be very surprised if that bank account detail wasn't on there. Was there any particular uh reason why um you reported this sort of information?
02:14:38 information? Very important as special branch. Now when I when I said there was a previous um RF number that was Winston Silcott's personal RF number.
02:14:55 Silcott's personal RF number. Yes. Would this reporting contribute to the Winston Silkot Defense Campaign getting an RF number? Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yes.
02:15:06 Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yes. But finances, sorry, I was just about to say finances. And you'll see it over and over again in not just my reports, but the reports I've seen. Uh the special branch knowing what the financial sit situation is of target groups. You don't exist uh without money. the special branch knowing how much money you've
02:15:22 branch knowing how much money you've got, they can understand how big your campaign is with possibly a threat a threat threat from it.
02:15:32 Similar question to an earlier question I asked you. Was this did you report this opportunistically or was this something you were specifically tasked to find out? No, it was once again it's this ongoing task didn't need reminding so anything
02:15:49 task didn't need reminding so anything comes up. Winston Silka. Uh obviously I haven't got this uh person under the privacy here. Uh but um I'd be very surprised if he wasn't one of the militant colleagues as well because I knew who was uh helping run u that from the
02:15:59 the there was somebody designated in militant to actually liaz with George uh in there as well. So, I'm not sure if I got it off him directly, uh, the
02:16:10 got it off him directly, uh, the leaflet, but I was basically, we're talking about coverage. I I had the Winston Silcot defense campaign totally covered because the person that I'm guessing here, the person you've had
02:16:23 guessing here, the person you've had privacy over, uh, friends, I'm going to use this word sparingly, but he was certainly friend Peter Johnson got on really well with him. I had that campaign covered. They couldn't they couldn't sneeze without me knowing about it because this person will report back
02:16:40 it because this person will report back to me and this is where we get into our know how we get knowledge about these campaigns is because that person is
02:16:51 campaigns is because that person is designated so I didn't have I I actually knew George knew George he knew who I was but again I didn't ever have to press him for intelligence I could actually literally say to him I hope you're well don't press him for intelligence because this person would be giving me all the intelligence about the campaign. So, you're always doing
02:17:05 the campaign. So, you're always doing this this hedging your bets. As long as I knew what was going on in this campaign, I didn't have to do too much myself. In terms of written reports, in addition to the ones I've shown you,
02:17:17 addition to the ones I've shown you, we've got two reports relating to the 10th anniversary demonstration outside Tottenham Police Station, but we don't have any other written reporting on the Winston Silkot Defense
02:17:33 reporting on the Winston Silkot Defense Campaign. Can you assist us? Was Did you make any other written reports? You're saying you've got those outside the police? You got those outside the police station or you're saying you haven't got
02:17:47 haven't got We've got two relating to that demonstration but nothing else and I'm the question I'm asking is was there anything else?
02:17:55 anything else? I don't think George done a lot more. George was very quiet. He went round he was trying to gar things like you know trying to cheer him up by getting Christmas cards the occasional demo here and there and uh I I don't think he wanted to do a lot more. So I don't
02:18:08 wanted to do a lot more. So I don't think there is a lot more because he himself didn't do a lot more. Was this campaign the subject of um discussions with your managers on an ongoing basis or not?
02:18:19 ongoing basis or not? Just the fact that I was covering it. So there would have been concern uh that you know it the concern is oh Winston Silkcott has got a defense campaign how big is it? Who's running? What's the
02:18:31 big is it? Who's running? What's the potential for this order? What's going on? I didn't have a constant brief reminder of what's going on because I would literally come in and say, "Oh, by the way, the 10th anniversary, this is going to happen. This is the mood of the
02:18:43 going to happen. This is the mood of the demonstration. This is how many people." Because that information I would have got either directly from George himself or the person subject to the privacy there.
02:18:56 there. Can we take that down now, please? Can we go to the document at your B59, sir? 721-975.
02:19:06 This is moving on to some technical questions about the organization of special branch.
02:19:11 Page two, please.
02:19:24 This is a uh statement from or note of interview by an officer we're calling HN73 um temporary DCI.
02:19:36 DCI. I don't know who that is. Can I look? No. If it's by all means check your cipher list, but don't worry if HN73 isn't on it because it doesn't feature. You will you will not need to know this person's identity for the questions I'm
02:19:58 person's identity for the questions I'm going to ask you. This is a record of an interview with Operation Hern. Uh if we could go please to um the second uh paragraph.
02:20:07 So sorry I had to
02:20:19 I better get my hard copy. Just a moment please.
02:20:38 It's
02:20:45 on the under career. So a second paragraph, the one under career, could I have the third subp paragraph, I return to SB?
02:21:01 I wouldn't mind having a quick look. Is Is that okay? I wouldn't mind. Now he's returning. I just want to get my head around who he is.
02:21:09 is. No, he's not. I'm told he's not on the list.
02:21:12 list. He's not on there. Yeah, I can I can It doesn't matter. I can if you think you really need to know you can let me know. But
02:21:19 know. But the question for the question first question is I returned to special branch as a DC in 1994 initially returning to ports after
02:21:32 1994 initially returning to ports after 2 months I was posted to C squad where I remained for around 2 years. So C squad 94 to 96
02:21:37 94 to 96 bottom of the page under the heading Squad.
02:21:44 Squad. In 1990, C Squad had a team of about 20 people working on the extremist desks with me. This meant that more work could be done and it could be shared out more evenly. When I returned to the squad in 1995,
02:21:58 1995, the team had been renamed as a public order desk and had shrunk to approximately eight people, which included the sergeants. This shortfall meant that we had to work across disciplines with people helping out on
02:22:16 disciplines with people helping out on the extreme left and right wing as well as the animal rights extremist desks. Stopping there, you worked on uh S squad and you worked for the SDS
02:22:30 for the SDS during the mid '9s when this uh witness was returning to Squad.
02:22:41 was returning to Squad. the evidence about the size of C squad and how it was named. Do you agree with that? Yes. Correct. So is it right then that when you were in the SDS
02:22:56 in the SDS it had been renamed the public order desk?
02:22:59 desk? Correct. Was it known as the public order desk throughout your service in the SDS or did that name change come in during your service?
02:23:11 during your service? Correct. What is stated here about I can't give the exact date within there but about 1995 and beforehand it was just called C Squad and I would have been dealing with the leftwing disc on C squad pretty much how very accurately he
02:23:26 squad pretty much how very accurately he described what happened. Now, it goes on to say, "One of my main tasks at that
02:23:37 to say, "One of my main tasks at that time was reporting on death in custody campaigns, which were highly emotive, drawing interest from all of the political and pseudo political groups."
02:23:50 political and pseudo political groups." What I'd like to know is does that does a strand of work on the public order desk relating to death in custody campaigns accord with your recollection? Correct.
02:23:58 Correct. Can you help us in so far as they are directly relevant to your infiltration uh of militant labor KFG and the Y
02:24:11 and the Y were there other relevant work streams?
02:24:27 Well, not everybody died in custody. So there would also be the black justice
02:24:42 there would also be the black justice campaigns and something like the Winston Silkot campaign wouldn't fall under the deaths in custody. So there there are other strands but um it's basically anything in the arena of he hasn't specifically said
02:24:56 he hasn't specifically said black deaths in custody but certainly they were the campaigns that we were reporting on and the black justice campaigns. I can't think at what time I was out there. I've even got somewhere recollection I might have actually met this bloke. That's why I probably do want to know the name. Um
02:25:14 want to know the name. Um but um I can't remember a single report. Well, I'm sure you'll have it that I ever done anything about a white death in custody campaign. So, he might have been able to say there were, but I don't think there was.
02:25:31 What I would like to know is whether or not you can help us. Were were there people
02:25:34 people on the public order desk who were allocated streams of work such as justice campaigns?
02:25:48 justice campaigns? I think from what he was saying is I don't think there would have been a single designated person uh by the time he he's uh talking about that and beforehand it just would have been C squad dealing with left-wing matters.
02:26:00 matters. So there wasn't like oh this is DS whatever his name is. He was the person
02:26:12 whatever his name is. He was the person you'd only going to see about deaths in black custody. If that's the question, I'm not entirely sure I'm answering properly.
02:26:13 properly. Yeah. No, that is um Okay. Yeah. There wasn't a designated black justice campaign person. It was dealt by this desk which had gone down.
02:26:24 dealt by this desk which had gone down. So originally when it was 20, you would have had something like five on area the Aison, five dealing with uh
02:26:35 with uh left wing, five dealing with right wing and something in between. But I'm not aware of how they then divided uh these eight people amongst the tasking. I thought everybody did a bit of
02:26:48 thought everybody did a bit of everything. Okay. On page four of the file, please.
02:26:58 uh at the top two paragraphs,
02:27:11 second sentence of the top paragraph. In 1995, the levels of secrecy around SDS had changed considerably. Desk officers could call SDS directly with inquiries and requests, which was a seismic change in my opinion.
02:27:27 seismic change in my opinion. To the best of your knowledge, is that correct?
02:27:35 correct? I I would totally agree with the word a seismic uh shift in the special branch. That was a change of policy, something called tenure. So the uh uh you had direct uniform uh entrance at different levels. There was it was marketkedly different by time I returned. If he's
02:27:47 different by time I returned. If he's already that was obviously for me that's 1998.
02:27:52 1998. Uh the levels of secrecy almost nobody knew about the SDS beforehand. by the time I come off, everybody almost knew where I was. Uh so that had certainly changed. But uh if he's saying that was
02:28:03 changed. But uh if he's saying that was in 1995, it's certainly evident to me by the time I went back in 1998.
02:28:16 the time I went back in 1998. And if we go to the bottom of those two paragraphs, I would often call with requests for information regarding public order threat assessments, particularly in relation to the aforementioned death in custody campaigns. Any response to these would usually come in the form of a written report.
02:28:30 report. Can you help us? To your knowledge, were such requests being made uh by the public order desk of the SDS uh by telephone call?
02:28:47 telephone call? It wouldn't surprise me. It wouldn't surprise me at all, but I wouldn't be told how the information came about. What I knew it would come from the branch, but they uh whoever was then gave me the tasking, they wouldn't say, "Oh, it was such and such in the desk rung." It would just purely be C squad
02:28:58 rung." It would just purely be C squad wants to know the example I can give one is the one you've just done with regards
02:29:13 is the one you've just done with regards to outside Tottenham police station with regards to Winston Silkot campaign. So it would have been then a request for information. Can you please give the numbers and everything else uh from there?
02:29:23 Could we have a look now please at page five
02:29:25 five under
02:29:27 under the heading sensitive issues. Could we look at the second paragraph which begins with regard to deaths in custody. With regard to death in custody, I was
02:29:41 With regard to death in custody, I was involved in the reporting on the Brian and Wayne Douglas issues and the
02:29:53 and Wayne Douglas issues and the response to the death of Ibrahima say at Forest Gate. This work was focused on identifying, assessing, and managing potential public order threats, including monitoring the activities of the extreme left wing and other groups such as the Nation of Islam, which was
02:30:17 such as the Nation of Islam, which was very active at this time. that involve themselves in associated campaigns. It's right, isn't it, that you too reported on all three of those campaigns. He really is um what he's basically talking about is for those particular three campaigns that was almost exclusively
02:30:29 exclusively u mine with a maybe a little bit of intelligence coming in uh from the
02:30:42 intelligence coming in uh from the outskirts by uh Mark Jenner. Uh but but those three were my campaigns. This is amazingly honest, surprisingly honest special branch officer here. This is quite astounding in all honesty. Uh before my next question, we're going to hand up to you a post-it note with the name of
02:30:55 the name of the witness concerned. I'll just show it to your council before I do so.
02:31:14 Thank you.
02:31:30 Yeah. No, he is a top chap. Yeah. And I I definitely would have met him somewhere. Um Yeah. No, he was a Yes, he was a top chapel.
02:31:41 Yes, he was a top chapel. Can you recall requests for intelligence about any of the three campaigns being relayed to you? Yes, there was once again um this was within the
02:31:56 within the black justice campaigns uh the Brian and Wayne Douglas issues. just anybody is under sort of mis misinterpretation. These are two totally separate separate events uh that took place in Southeast London and Kennington Brixton. They're
02:32:11 London and Kennington Brixton. They're not related anyway. Uh so that's clear. They're two separate campaigns, but outside of the um Steven Lawrence campaign, uh this became
02:32:22 Steven Lawrence campaign, uh this became um the biggest public order potential uh for the branch in regards to black justice. when I I was uh still there.
02:32:38 Can we keep the document up? But this next question is not confined to the individual in question.
02:32:50 individual in question. It's did you during your SDS deployment meet either this person or any other public order desk officer?
02:32:57 Yes, I definitely met him and I definitely met other officers. Can you help us with the circumstances in which you met officers from the public order desk whilst you were deployed?
02:33:12 I would it it didn't happen that often, but it definitely happened. If I was to say what four maybe five times during my deployment
02:33:23 times during my deployment and they were allowed to come out
02:33:32 struggling to remember if it was in what um one of the safe houses they would have come to but they would have come to this safe house and I it would be an open forum. I I would have um no
02:33:47 open forum. I I would have um no preparation required for it. Sometimes they'd say before you speak to them, they specifically want say this Brian and Wayne Douglas ones. Uh and literally they could come along and talk to me and ask any questions. So for example, who's
02:34:03 ask any questions. So for example, who's running it? Uh what's involved? um which saved having to write a number of um individual reports that may not have answered the question the public order desk actually wants to know.
02:34:14 desk actually wants to know. Um were these meetings confined to deaths in police custody or did they range more widely than that?
02:34:28 did they range more widely than that? No. If the public order desk came out uh that would be whatever their whole remit that they thought I might be able to answer questions on. They wouldn't answer answer. It's me answering. They wouldn't ask me questions in areas that
02:34:41 wouldn't ask me questions in areas that I couldn't possibly provide any insight to, but they would certainly probe and ask me what I could actually what I could help them with. So, would it cover campaigns uh based on criticism of police investigations?
02:34:53 investigations? If they turned around and gave me a name and said, "This is the campaign that's going on." A bit like you just said, the Oliver Campbell campaign or something like that. they asked me for it then yes that that that's open to questioning and it would always be along the lines of
02:35:09 it would always be along the lines of the importance is where are we with this campaign at this moment in time racial justice campaigns absolutely the Steven Lawrence campaign absolutely
02:35:22 can we now have expanded the bottom paragraph on this page please and I've got to apologize because there's nowhere's a mention of this at all in my statement but I entirely forgot a little bit of this
02:35:37 bottom paragraph. Um, the Lawrence inquiry. I do not remember any specific tasking around this issue, though it was a very highprofile campaign. The murder occurred before my time on the desk.
02:35:49 occurred before my time on the desk. Personally, I believe the allegation of Francis at the MPS was involved in some form of smear campaign against Sir
02:36:02 form of smear campaign against Sir Laurens's family is ridiculous. It would of course have been very sensible for the police to know about the organizations surrounding and attempting to exploit the family and campaign. But smearing would not have been tolerated.
02:36:14 smearing would not have been tolerated. 100% with the terminology of smearing as I described it what smearing and special branch terminology means and this particular officer would have an
02:36:26 particular officer would have an understanding what a special branch smearing campaign is.
02:36:33 So starting taking stripping the smearing out of it. Very sensible for police to know about the organization surrounding and attempting to exploit the family and campaign. That very much what you were being asked about.
02:36:49 what you were being asked about. Absolutely. And in terms of smearing, taking away the porative language, can you ever recall whether anyone from the public order desk expressed any
02:37:04 the public order desk expressed any interest in intelligence with which to discredit a campaign? No, that's uh that that's not the public order. Uh they just purely want to know what the situation is there. And then
02:37:25 what the situation is there. And then can we take that document down now please? And can we go to tab C 100 uh please uh 34535.
02:37:37 Uh and if we go over to the next page please.
02:37:44 Uh this is the moving on to the Weaver's Ward bi-election in Tower Hamlets in 1995.
02:37:55 bi-election in Tower Hamlets in 1995. This is a uh nominal performer dated the 27th of January 1995. There's your nominal at the bottom left. It's on Hugo
02:38:08 It's on Hugo Pierre. It uh contains all the usual distri descriptive information one normally sees on these reports. And then if we could look at the text at the bottom,
02:38:18 bottom, Pierre who is well spoic and pleasant individual has been selected as the ML candidate in the
02:38:33 selected as the ML candidate in the forthcoming Weaver's Ward Local Council bi-election to be held on the 23rd of February. And then there's some uh
02:38:44 February. And then there's some uh record of his uh wife's political uh affiliations and it states that she comes from uh Bratford. If we could zoom back out again and look at under the info uh column.
02:39:03 Yeah, sorry. Um, it was a selected as the ML candidate that I wanted to focus on. Is that the reason that you put this report in that he's been selected as a candidate?
02:39:16 he's been selected as a candidate? Uh, no. I was just a question I was going to ask. I know there's privacy after his RF. I was just wondering if it's one of the people I created the file on. So, I don't know if you can if we're allowed to without setting
02:39:28 we're allowed to without setting everything off because there's relevance that I would have thought he was he's got a file and I actually think he's one of the people that I recommended well before him standing there. I'm looking for people within militant.
02:39:41 for people within militant. I've already described him. Um he he's an important militant member under the subversive category. I'm I'm pretty much
02:39:52 subversive category. I'm I'm pretty much sure that I may have asked for a file to be opened up on him which goes before this. So yes, the fact he so other way around if you're above there you didn't
02:40:05 around if you're above there you didn't have an RF for him immediately fasttrack service. If you become an ML candidate you're within militant you are the way he's described you would be fasttracked to get yourself a file. But I think uh
02:40:18 to get yourself a file. But I think uh my intelligence beforehand I don't know how many reports you've seen uh was I suggested to have a file or if he had an existing file uh I would have updated
02:40:31 existing file uh I would have updated with the information I had on I think I created that created I asked for it to be created. I see. But putting aside the question of whether or not there was a need to create a file, the fact that he had been selected as a candidate was
02:40:44 had been selected as a candidate was significant intelligence that you wish to report.
02:40:50 to report. Absolutely. And it was your question is was it greatly received? Yes, it would have been without the thank you a lot from the branch. Well, the point of this report is if we go to page one, please
02:41:05 that there are earlier reports on Mr. Pierre. So, this isn't the first surprised if it wouldn't have been
02:41:20 left hand gist. This is the security services consumer comments checkbox grading information provided as good and useful intelligence. Uh is the position that you didn't see this particular document at the time?
02:41:35 at the time? I've never seen a single report back from the security service with regard to grading my work for good or otherwise. It would have actually been nice to know because then I could have worked a bit harder in certain areas. It would have actually been helpful to me, but I'd never seen one until I saw the disclosures.
02:41:50 disclosures. Well, that may link to my next question. Did you get any feedback on this intelligence? Very minimal. The the actual uh feedback I had was only ever in meetings. Uh I'm
02:42:01 I had was only ever in meetings. Uh I'm not quite sure what I can say, but I had meetings that was definitely told to me directly uh that my intelligence was good and useful, but I never ever saw this and certainly I think we should have seen this. It allows you to actually grade where your intelligence actually is. If they constantly keep
02:42:15 actually is. If they constantly keep saying it's rubbish, well, you'd have a think about it. Uh, to the best of your knowledge, was any it was either you or any of your managers addressing their minds to the
02:42:28 managers addressing their minds to the question of whether it was appropriate to be reporting on Hugo Pierre's participation in democratic elections. Now, if we go back the special branch and have a look at all the MPs files, we all seen appropriately kept. I think
02:42:40 all seen appropriately kept. I think there's quite a lot of inappropriate stuff going on. This is just one of a lot of inappropriate stuff. Could we take that down now, please? And could we have up from C107348,
02:42:53 please?
02:43:10 Uh this is one of Trevor Morris's uh reports. 23rd of March 1995. Uh I'm interested on in on this page in paragraph 4, please.
02:43:20 please. Seems to get a lot of files attributed to him, but it's definitely a joint effort there. Lewis Austin, a member of Yre Militant ML, recently visited Privacy, formerly of the SWPL,
02:43:32 of the SWPL, now a member of Red Action, and asked him why Red Action had not assisted the Y at a recent demonstration in Winchester against a local member of the
02:43:46 Winchester against a local member of the British National Party. privacy was able to reassure her that Southampton Red Action had indeed been active and that as a result four BMP members had been
02:43:59 as a result four BMP members had been hospitalized, one with stab wounds. This seemed to satisfy Austin and it was agreed they should continue to work together in the future. Can you help us? Is this
02:44:10 Is this your intelligence or not? Absolutely, 100% not. If I covered this in my statement, I had no access to uh red action information. I would
02:44:24 uh red action information. I would actually say this has been wrongly attributed to HN78. Uh basically this is going to be from the red action which at that time what what date are we talking about? I can't see it.
02:44:35 see it. Are you a
02:44:41 Are you a that would be Jenna if that's 95 that's Mark Jenner and also the comment about uh Lois are saying I didn't know it extremely well uh but there was never anything to satisfy that I heard Lois
02:44:54 anything to satisfy that I heard Lois would be satisfied that four BMP members were stabbed. I I find that contradictory about her that she would actually say something like that. So, this is bad in not good intelligence. And uh Trevor Morris um
02:45:11 intelligence. And uh Trevor Morris um I'd be very very surprised because he had uh good intel. This this is just wrong intel. Can we take that down now, please? A general