Peter Francis (HN43) gives testimony about institutional racism and sexism within the SDS and Special Branch. The session covers Prime Minister Thatcher's visit to the Special Branch centenary ball in 1983, police culture of sexism (women officers called 'Dorises'), Bob Lambert's advice to use own condoms for sexual encounters, DCS Potter's racist language after the Welling demonstration, and extensive evidence of HN86's daily racist language including slurs against black people. Francis describes HN86's racist comments about the Lawrence campaign and Dwayne Brooks, stating HN86 said it would have been better if Brooks had been killed instead of Stephen Lawrence.
00:47:03 A document which relates to the special branch centinary ball held on the 29th of March 1983.
00:47:09 Um and if we go over the page please,
00:47:19 we see that there is a covering note to the prime minister uh to which explains that she was going to look in uh at the centinary ball uh for special branch and uh that uh she
00:47:34 for special branch and uh that uh she will be there uh for approximately 45 minutes. If we could go over the page again, please.
00:47:47 again, please. The prime minister's briefing includes a number of documents at uh item one, a brief history of special branch. If we could go uh and it says that she was
00:48:04 could go uh and it says that she was expected, she the prime minister that is was expected to say a very few words um at the function. Can we go over the page to the history? This is the first page of the history of
00:48:18 This is the first page of the history of uh the special branch. Uh over the page, please
00:48:29 same history continued. Could we have expanded please the top paragraph?
00:48:35 The 1960s saw the rise of wellorganized civil disobedience starting with the older master marches by the campaign for nuclear disarmament and later the less innocent activities of the committee of
00:48:48 innocent activities of the committee of 100. The late 1960s saw the rise of the Vietnam solidarity campaign with its attendant public order problems and at length almost complete penetration by various organizations of the extreme left had been affected. special branch
00:49:03 left had been affected. special branch took due notice of such matters with its responsibility for providing accurate upto-date information about public order and then in handwriting two words the SDS.
00:49:17 two words the SDS. Can you help us please how you obtained this document? Uh this would have been a uh something that was given by uh I think it was like Q gardens. So the
00:49:32 think it was like Q gardens. So the queue when they have the records handed over. It was in one of my uh numerous discussions obviously OSA type problems aside that may present uh with uh Rob Evans and Rob Evans uh guardian came
00:49:50 Evans and Rob Evans uh guardian came across this uh he asked me to discuss it discuss it with him. So that's what I did. Uh the one one yeah please if I ramble please just stop me otherwise you got Bob Lambert scenario sort of a week later come back again. But if there is
00:50:06 later come back again. But if there is uh just reign me in type thing. The SDS itself was actually linked to the Vietnam Solidarity Campaign. Yeah, I can stop you there because we've uh we've looked into that in some detail. The question I have for you is who wrote the words the SDS?
00:50:20 is who wrote the words the SDS? No. No, sorry. Not not even close. No idea. No idea. Yeah. Can I take it from that that it wasn't you?
00:50:24 you? Can I have a look? Um not immediately. We can we can get the document in slower time for you to look.
00:50:31 look. Yeah, it could very well have been me actually. I don't know. Let's wind that one back. Everything's going to be done correctly here. Uh so at this particular point, I'd prefer to say I do not know, but as soon as I see my sort of scroll,
00:50:42 but as soon as I see my sort of scroll, I definitely recognize it. Are you going to mention that about the SDS where it got it name from in Vietnam because it was the
00:50:47 was the we've we've we have covered all of that exhaustively because that there's a group over there. As a rule today, um I'm concentrating on what you can directly tell us.
00:50:59 what you can directly tell us. Uh, can I move now? Can we take that document down? And can I move now to uh your training and prior experience in relation to sex discrimination?
00:51:10 discrimination? Did that document also go into where they actually talk about the gray area policing or we coming back to that later on?
00:51:18 on? Uh, anything else about that document is a matter for submissions. Mr. Francis, right?
00:51:24 right? Uh, if we uh move now to the question of training about sex discrimination. Did you have any training about sex discrimination at any point before you joined the SDS? Before the SDS, uh, none whatsoever. Whilst you were in the SDS,
00:51:36 Whilst you were in the SDS, even worse, none whatsoever. Uh, can I now direct you to your experiences whilst you were in uniform?
00:51:47 experiences whilst you were in uniform? Did you see or hear any of your uniform colleagues behaving in a sexist manner? Often.
00:51:58 Often. Were you part of that culture? Not as bad. I've got personal um reasons, family reasons uh for me to
00:52:10 reasons, family reasons uh for me to have a better view of women being able to look after. I came from a single mother household. So, uh certainly my own opinion of people being able to look after themselves, the stereotypical of
00:52:21 after themselves, the stereotypical of what a woman should be type thing, which that was certainly evident the police service in the 80s when I was in uniform and their opinion of women that way. Uh but yes, I I I would get involved in
00:52:34 but yes, I I I would get involved in banter uh with regards to uh women. I I wouldn't say anything out loud derogatory. Uh we certainly heard uh some of the activists recalling what happened to them on demonstrations with regards to name calling and other things like that. Uh I've never never
00:52:47 like that. Uh I've never never participated in that but certainly jokes with regards to uh general general sexism things like this. Yeah, at that particular time the uh police it was and I've got to put my hands up. I would
00:53:02 I've got to put my hands up. I would have been but I I very much hope I would uh at the time they were [snorts] women police constables. I I very much hope there's not a single one who'd ever come up, bearing in mind, you know, I'm sort of semi famousamous now, would actually come up and say, "Oh, yeah, know right swine." Uh when I was out with him, I
00:53:17 swine." Uh when I was out with him, I don't think I ever treated anybody. I certainly had a lot of respect with regards to what uh women in the police service could do. But yes, certainly the old days of the police canteen culture, uh women police constables were almost
00:53:32 uh women police constables were almost always referred to as Dorises. If they weren't referred to as us as Dorises, they were called plon. Not entirely sure where that name even came from. Uh so yes, but it's not it's not like occasionally. And interesting enough, uh the panorama program recently about
00:53:45 the panorama program recently about hiding it uh where the officers sort of hiding at pubs, hiding at car parks. Uh that wasn't necessary. That that was uh fully open.
00:53:56 fully open. Uh when you moved to special branch, was it the same or different? Le it was less. It was less. Um the um I I think what you're basically talking is there's sort of like an intelligence
00:54:09 there's sort of like an intelligence level and the intelligence special level uh in the special branch uh was certainly uh significantly higher than a cross-section of the whole of that. But yeah, you would still have um you'd
00:54:20 yeah, you would still have um you'd still have sex as banter, but it wasn't as bad. But I've got to say uh within the special branch the amount of females uh in relation to the amount of males
00:54:32 uh in relation to the amount of males around uh was a lot lot smaller as well. So whether or not the same officers would have been out there uh where there was more uh input, I don't know if the behavior would have been um marketkedly different
00:54:42 different within the SDS.
00:54:53 within the SDS. The same uh the same again uh as as in the special branch uh same and um there there certainly was banter once again there was a lot of input uh without mentioning it. I don't know who I uh going to say that I shouldn't do, but uh I think it's been mentioned there was always give or take around about one um
00:55:05 always give or take around about one um uh woman detective constible within the SDS at any one time. And so the banter, but the banter would always be a little bit more when they weren't there. And the actual uh the women who were doing
00:55:24 the actual uh the women who were doing the SDS work, uh they would certainly be able to deal with banter if it became too hard. and my own experience of hilarious banter aimed at people uh and things like that is there's a bullying aspect to everything. So, uh you can't
00:55:39 aspect to everything. So, uh you can't banter too much, you can't do too much if that person will deal with you in response and certainly the um the women on the SDS uh were feisty. So uh there
00:55:53 on the SDS uh were feisty. So uh there there's a police uh saying called FIFO and that's f in or f off and that was throughout the police force. You had to accept it or or you left type thing. But that banter stroke bullying was only up
00:56:10 that banter stroke bullying was only up to a certain level that almost the other person allowed to take place cuz they wouldn't react properly. Almost like being at school again. Uh if you don't if you react to it, it gets there. Can I move now to the question of um
00:56:26 Can I move now to the question of um preparation for your deployment and what might have been said [snorts] about sexual relations under in your undercover identity? You have said in your statement that detective inspector Lambert
00:56:40 detective inspector Lambert advised you to wear a condom. Can you help us when that was? So that wasn't the first advice I had from managers uh with regard to that, but that definitely was and that would
00:56:52 but that definitely was and that would have been shortly. So the exact dates is Bob Lambert was definitely there uh in time for the big demo in Welling. So that's October 93. So I'm putting him
00:57:07 So that's October 93. So I'm putting him round about there. And that advice to me would have been not long after or in that sort of region. Uh I was deployed the beginning of September 93. He became manager end of 93, beginning of October 93. So his advice uh amongst other
00:57:19 93. So his advice uh amongst other advice, he just didn't sort of get a hold of me and say this is the advice must wear a condom. Uh but uh that that's rough. It was very early on my
00:57:31 that's rough. It was very early on my deployment, he made a point of asking me some other things. Uh little helpful things. Do I you know how to make a spliff? Uh little things like this type helpful things. But uh he said something very specific to me with regards to condoms and his advice was basically to
00:57:43 condoms and his advice was basically to make sure that you use your own condom. And now uh he you know he did not say at any time to me whatsoever that uh this is because uh I had a sexual
00:57:54 is because uh I had a sexual relationship and um I I didn't use condom. I was given a condom. But I you know I can definitely remember his advice was different to another manager
00:58:07 advice was different to another manager who just talked about generally the use of condoms. He said specifically make use your own and he basically elaborated by it by saying uh that he was aware that somebody else became
00:58:21 was aware that somebody else became unstuck by using a condom that had been provided to him by uh one of the activists. Any any truth in reality? I I I don't know at all.
00:58:32 I don't know at all. But no names just at the moment. But did he identify that officer? No. No. And I I didn't ask any further either. Uh the the whole questioning with regards to the SDS and whoever you
00:58:46 with regards to the SDS and whoever you were speaking to, there always seemed um sort of like a quite a fine margin between what they were sort of telling you and if you probe too far further, you just wouldn't get that. I certainly had that feeling with Bob.
00:59:02 had that feeling with Bob. Can you help us with the circumstances in which that conversation with Di Lambert arose?
00:59:15 Not specifically, but it would have been something. Um, it would certainly would have been in one of the uh cuz I was deployed, so it certainly would have been one of our two uh what are called uh SDS safeouses, that sort of envir environment.
00:59:28 environment. Did it come in the context of a conversation about having sex with activists or with members of the public in your undercover identity? Yes, within the whole uh thing of what
00:59:46 Yes, within the whole uh thing of what what I I was sort of doing out there and it was basically from if in the event I did end up having sex uh it's just a cautionary tale and it was certainly wasn't done there there's not a single aspect to when you are undercover you you mustn't have sex when you were
01:00:03 you mustn't have sex when you were undercover there that wasn't even hinted at. It wasn't it wasn't encouraged. It wasn't bravado and uh Bob um was certainly somebody who never never
01:00:19 certainly somebody who never never boasted about anything. Um there's no bravado to him at all and he is just just a matter of fact from who I regarded as a highly highly uh experienced former SDS officer and I was super eager to learn of somebody of uh
01:00:32 super eager to learn of somebody of uh his regarded caliber certainly to me. So any advice he gave me um I certainly took took on board and uh we we'll get into the sex later on but I certainly
01:00:43 into the sex later on but I certainly made sure uh I had my own condoms with me.
01:00:50 me. Did he give you any guidance or advice as to the circumstances in which you should or should not have sex with somebody in your undercover identity?
01:01:04 No, it was a very a very generalized talk. Very generalized talk.
01:01:14 In addition to what he said about the condoms, did he give you any other advice in relation to sexual relationships in your undercover identity?
01:01:42 As far as I can remember, I don't think we even had another discussion about it uh thereafters. I think um Bob was a person who assessed you as if you were told something one once you know you sort of clever enough to remember it. So I I took it down as uh lesson lesson
01:01:53 took it down as uh lesson lesson understood, learned uh appreciated. It was appreciated by me. Uh and I I could be wrong. He may have said we spoke about again, but I I generally can't remember.
01:02:09 remember. You said you're dropping your voice. Sorry. Those Apologies
01:02:11 Apologies in the room won't be able to hear what you say.
01:02:12 you say. Apologies. Yes. You you said in the course of one of your earlier answers that another manager had given you some advice about condoms.
01:02:27 condoms. Being careful about anonymity orders. Who was that manager? HN67.
01:02:30 HN67. What did HN67 say to you about the subject of having sex with people in your undercover identity?
01:02:41 identity? Got slight reservations here because my understanding is he's now deceased. Is is that right? He's got no way of being able to reply. I don't mind saying something. Then Bob Sambert says, "Oh, you don't." But I'm a little bit concerned that somebody can't defend themselves when they're dead. But very
01:02:53 themselves when they're dead. But very very minimally. He did actually say uh the same without using your own condom bits. And this this would have been when I was in the back office. So this was before Bob Lambert. Uh once again, it's
01:03:06 before Bob Lambert. Uh once again, it's just general advice. Uh he was a former SDS officer himself. uh you you've gone over details of him here uh in the
01:03:17 over details of him here uh in the hearing. Uh he wasn't regarded as highly as Bob Lambert. Uh but he himself hadn't produced like a spectacular result. He
01:03:28 produced like a spectacular result. He just had, you know, an SDS tour. He done
01:03:40 just had, you know, an SDS tour. He done his work on the S uh SDS tour and uh but he still had advice. He's somebody who was did the tour four years, 5 years, whatever it was. Uh so uh Henny did impart the advice with regards to sex. Uh I I think once again it's just a one-off uh involving other bits and
01:03:56 one-off uh involving other bits and pieces as well. And his concern again uh was one uh with regards to possible pregnancy and obviously benefit of hindsight uh with what may may not have happened uh with him. Uh the conversation to me made more sense later on than it did at the time. Uh I
01:04:08 on than it did at the time. Uh I appreciated it. But one thing I would say because obviously there women here in the back here, at no point did any of them whatsoever give any consideration to the women. Uh this is purely for us
01:04:27 to the women. Uh this is purely for us uh not to get pregnant, not because we were worried potentially about the ramifications out there, but it's ramifications for us in the SDS. Can I ask about the context of that conversation with HN67? In what circumstances was sex being contemplated?
01:04:42 contemplated? Once again, this is 30 something years on, but as far as I can remember, I I think that would just be him talking to me uh when we were in uh the SDS offices
01:04:54 me uh when we were in uh the SDS offices as opposed to SDS safe house. Uh because he used to come past, chat to me in the back office. Uh I I would chat to him as well. Um, so as far as I can remember, I I don't think it would have been um in
01:05:10 I don't think it would have been um in the circumstances that the same as Bob Lambert, I think was just in the back office.
01:05:16 office. Can you help us with whether the tenor of the conversation was that this was something you would be doing, something you might be doing, something that was very definitely a last resort?
01:05:35 when I arrived on the unit um it it was described basically almost it was is inevitable and I I don't want to say anything uh disrespectful to uh any of the activists but certainly the way that the activists were being portrayed by the manager
01:05:48 were being portrayed by the manager management uh was that sex uh when you were undercover for that period of time um it was almost inevitability.
01:06:00 um it was almost inevitability. Again, being careful about anonymity orders.
01:06:06 orders. Which manager told you it was either inevitable or almost inevitable? Uh that's each of them and we've not mentioned the other one either. So that would have been um yeah when when I was having the conversation
01:06:17 having the conversation u with with Bob it certainly was there HN67 and I'm sure you're going to get on
01:06:29 HN67 and I'm sure you're going to get on to H&86 with uh I drew reference to it my statement the fact the feeling was that [sighs] the SDS were going in areas that MI5 dared to tread because of actual uh
01:06:42 dared to tread because of actual uh sexual promiscuity amongst the left wing and no moral judgment attached to it at all but that was the feeling that we were going into that area and uh that I quoted it because that's actually something that uh we didn't say it Peter Wright actually wrote that in spy
01:06:54 Wright actually wrote that in spy catcher and certainly in the era I was in the SDS it was it wasn't a challenge but it was certainly an almost inevitab almost inevitability it was uh
01:07:09 almost inevitability it was uh did anybody within the SDS say to you that
01:07:14 that the SDS was going where the security service would not.
01:07:26 No, no, no. I I can't Well, no. I can't remember having a We had some quite deep conversations sometime. I don't know. Peter Wright definitely came up uh sometimes jury, but I don't know. I can't no can't answer that one.
01:07:45 Did HN67 say anything to you about whether or not he had fathered a child whilst he was deployed?
01:07:50 deployed? None whatsoever. None whatsoever. But I just going back to Bob Lambert. Neither did Bob Lambert. Was there any discussion in the abstract about the risk of fathering children and what would happen if you did?
01:08:11 No, it was never never said this is going to happen if you have a child when you were out there. No.
01:08:20 Can I move now to uh the matter of Chitty?
01:08:34 Chitty? Uh we have seen documents which show that in the spring of 1994 a report was written about Mike Chitty and amongst other things it's clear from that report that it was known that he had been having a sexual relationship
01:08:49 had been having a sexual relationship with an activist both during and after he was deployed. When did you first learn that Mike Chitty had been having sex with an activist and had maintained that
01:09:02 activist and had maintained that relationship after his deployment? And that's the SDS discussion paper that I disclosed. Is that is that the one? So that's there. uh because the SDS discussion paper was written um I was
01:09:18 discussion paper was written um I was out the back back office but the uh Mike Chitty saga was certainly very very big when I was in the back office so I can't remember exactly when but it was certainly during my time that I was in
01:09:29 certainly during my time that I was in the back office uh I was very aware uh with regards to Mike Chitty had gone seriously wrong on behalf of the SDS and there definitely was a a female involved
01:09:42 we have got a record to suggest that acting chief superintendent HN337, if you don't know who that is, you might want to check on your cipher list.
01:09:58 Yeah, hilariously. I've actually forgot my glasses. They're in the room next door, so I can't I couldn't read them unless it's about six times the size, unfortunately. I think someone Sorry, I've left I'm sure someone can go and get
01:10:14 and get It's just It should be in my bag. There's like a little scruffy bag in there. A blank one. Thank you. Apologies.
01:10:25 Well, I'll come back uh to that uh in a moment.
01:10:30 [laughter]
01:10:35 Multiple problems with that.
01:22:45 Yes, there was there was two um field trips uh to to Amsterdam. We went to other places uh together as the field, but we also went to Amsterdam together.
01:22:56 but we also went to Amsterdam together. Did you go on either trip? I went to both trips. Can you help us with when the first trip was?
01:23:07 No, all I can say is it definitely was under the tenure of uh Keith Edmonson
01:23:25 under the tenure of uh Keith Edmonson because basically it was his his idea to go over then. So it's sometime before then and it wouldn't have been in my last year. So whenever he came on sometime before January January January 19 seven so whenever he came on before before I came off in the final year when was the second trip
01:23:38 when was the second trip don't know don't know sometime within within there we had one successful went back again when you say within there are you saying again within uh DCI Edmonson's tenure Yes,
01:23:47 Yes, [clears throat] we tend to do the same. We had if a trip was successful, we also went over to DEP twice. We went paint
01:23:58 went over to DEP twice. We went paint boarding twice. Couple of places were a bit of a howler, so we didn't go back again.
01:24:02 again. Can you help us with the first trip? But being very careful about anonymity, of
01:24:14 being very careful about anonymity, of course. Uh to your direct knowledge, did any SDS officer or manager consume
01:24:16 consume drugs?
01:24:20 drugs? I certainly did. I certainly did. and the other officers around me who were with me and the conversation before we went there, during when we went there and after we went there with the exception of one officer who's
01:24:31 exception of one officer who's vehemently opposed to uh drugs. Um I I think everybody had a cake co or coffee.
01:24:42 think everybody had a cake co or coffee. Um I I didn't hear of anybody saying I I didn't I didn't do that. So, just general conversation, but uh other than a couple who I was directly with at the time, uh I don't know, but one vehemently, I'll just put it down. It
01:24:55 vehemently, I'll just put it down. It was HN78. HN78's very anti-drugs. Always has been.
01:24:57 has been. Are we talking about cannabis? Well, cannabis and the cakes cakes over there. You get your cannabis cakes, whatever else. I think they stick a bit
01:25:08 whatever else. I think they stick a bit of marijuana in it type things. Um yes, sort of the cafe culture over there. Did you see any of your managers consuming
01:25:25 cakes laced with drugs? No, because the managers were we went together for we stayed in the same hotel together which I still know cuz it was quite memorable. Uh we also had a meal in the evening but they we did split up and we got together back in the evening soon and no direct taking. No.
01:25:42 soon and no direct taking. No. To your knowledge, did anyone on that trip have sex with a sex worker? Right. I definitely didn't do that. Just hand on my heart. But I did go to a a club. I did go to a club, but no,
01:25:57 club. I did go to a club, but no, actually direct sex. And so once again, nobody that I know directly had. But I don't think a single one of us by the time we were flying back. And it's two two nights, two nights twice. So I don't think anybody was not talking about that they hadn't visit the red light district. [clears throat]
01:26:11 district. [clears throat] What they then did within it uh was was there. I've got to say Keith Edmonson did stress to us uh if some of the SDS management came out maybe to emphasize the cultural side that we went to
01:26:24 the cultural side that we went to Amsterdam for not ne necessarily the recreational side. Was this joking or do you have any evidence that any
01:26:39 evidence that any officer or manager had sex with a sex worker?
01:26:44 worker? No, I've got no evidence whatsoever. Can we go to the second trip? Essentially the same question. Drugs. Did any of your fellow UCOs take drugs in Amsterdam?
01:26:56 drugs in Amsterdam? It was the same same circumstances. So I don't think anybody did. Whether or not everybody came on it, I can't remember. The two trips have I don't know merged into one. Emerged into one. How
01:27:07 into one. Emerged into one. How distinguish from one to another one. I I can't remember. Sex with sex workers. Same again.
01:27:18 Can I move now to the question of race discrimination [snorts] and what training you had had on the question of race discrimination
01:27:33 while whilst you were training to become a police officer and whilst you were in uniform?
01:27:40 uniform? In uniform uh when I arrived in Henden. So I was in Henden in January 86. first intake of January 1986 and I would say within week one late it's by week two we had a whole section uh on that very topic um myself um I'd come from a
01:27:55 topic um myself um I'd come from a Norfolk and other people come from vary areas we were going into a multi-racial multicultural society and Metropolitan Police at the time uh so you were
01:28:11 Police at the time uh so you were learning about cultures uh from them but that that was the only training I ever had. I then done multiple different courses just to name a few. Special branch course, Courses, other courses. I never had any update on that. And getting ahead to the question, certainly not in the SDS or
01:28:23 not in the SDS or or special branch. No, the initial course, special branch, nothing whatsoever. You joined as you say in 1986. I'd like you to go back to 1986 and help us with
01:28:43 you to go back to 1986 and help us with in the cohort of people you were with uh training to be police officers. Uh was there were there racist attitudes?
01:28:54 There there were some there there were some, but I've got to say um it was referred to as Disneyland uh by when you get out into the real policing that really that isn't the real world. This is the real world. So, I actually didn't see anywhere near the
01:29:08 actually didn't see anywhere near the amount of racism in training school that I did when I actually arrived in the police uh police service. And can you help us with the level of racism
01:29:15 racism when you were a you amongst your uniformed colleagues uh when you were a uniform police officer? uniform back. Um so this would have been
01:29:33 May um 86 I was posted division. Um it was certainly evident not necessarily rife. It tended to be the officers who had worked in the inner city inner city burers then came out. I
01:29:45 city inner city burers then came out. I was posted to Brmley, Brmley, Ken, Penge and Beckenham. That was the three area I was in. And some of the officers
01:29:56 was in. And some of the officers weren't, but there definitely were some racist officers there. Um there's a noticeable jump in the level of racism uh by the officers when uh I did
01:30:12 uh by the officers when uh I did attachments to what was known then as the district support unit. And these were uh level two shield trained officers with particular remmits of being football crowd control and that and that that there definitely was more racism there.
01:30:31 In your experience was any of was that first of all was that racism hidden or not?
01:30:34 not? No. No need to hide anything then. Was it ever challenged? Uh not shamedly not by me but I never heard a single person challenge it.
01:30:45 a single person challenge it. And can you give us um a rough idea of how diverse the Metropolitan Police Service itself was in 1986 on the front line?
01:30:57 line? When I arrived um at uh it's Brmley Penge Beckham. There was one one police officer who was uh black at the time and that was it. And uh he
01:31:12 that was it. And uh he he was actually by a lot of officers um even referred to in in a negative stereotypical way almost every time they talked to him. But it was as though he was okay cuz he was with with us type
01:31:25 was okay cuz he was with with us type thing. But he was quite often regarded as like the token. Uh I actually heard him being referred to as the token as the token black officer. And that was there. Yeah, there there was one one on division.
01:31:43 division. Uh, and can you assist us as to the level of racial tension between
01:31:48 between the Metropolitan Police Service on the front line, out on the streets and
01:32:03 people who were from ethnic minorities. Where I was stationed, there was very there was very little. It was almost uh the other way round. Uh we we had responsive policing because where I was at the time in Brmley uh calls from members of the public just because they
01:32:14 members of the public just because they were almost like upset because there was black people there. So quite often I would get a call uh that would get have to stop a suspicious vehicle 1990 when I was a uniform officer and Asian people.
01:32:29 and Asian people. Uh not not for us so much there in Brmbley at the time.
01:32:40 Was there a view that a black person was more likely to be involved in crime? Definitely a young sorry emphasis a young black person particular of the age group. Uh you know you had um you know uh
01:32:52 you know you had um you know uh elderly black couple going to Brmley shopping. Uh, no. But if you did have some youth come down, then yes, that would be that would be regarded as
01:33:05 would be that would be regarded as they're almost impromly uh for for up to no good type thing. Was there a distinction between males and females? More to male.
01:33:21 More to male. Uh, and were there any uh stereotypes about the levels of intelligence within the black population? Unfortunately, yes. And what was the perception? Very negative. Very negative that their their
01:33:31 their maybe it was very negative but to a certain degree maybe it was correct. Their their career trajectory was not expected to be high and uh so I think
01:33:43 expected to be high and uh so I think that's most unfortunate. They they felt they felt that and I think it was actually very difficult for the career trajectory to be a lot higher than
01:33:56 trajectory to be a lot higher than Could you speak please? Uh were there any stereotypes about uh the propensity of black people to violence? There was always a fear. There was
01:34:07 There was always a fear. There was always a fear. If you had a a group of um black particularly young people together that they congregated in a a larger group, they'd be concerned that it's you know almost ine inevitable that it might be problematic.
01:34:22 I've been asking you about your experiences in uniform in frontline policing. Can I now move to your time in special branch before the SDS?
01:34:35 special branch before the SDS? Were the attitudes the same there or were they different? I don't think the officers themselves I think there were definitely less races
01:34:49 think there were definitely less races that was there. But what there was is we had so very little dealing with black people in the special branch. The special branch the areas that we were concerned in uh for example like protection or were concerned in um all
01:35:09 protection or were concerned in um all the areas the Irish Irish te terrorism was a vastly bigger area. We had very very little uh dealing uh with black people in the special branch.
01:35:18 In general terms within the SDS, was the position the same or different? The the the position was exactly the same. We had uh other than the offices which actually uh was me and Trevor Morris who obviously he was black as
01:35:29 Morris who obviously he was black as everybody is aware here. uh there was very little dealing of other activists uh groups that involved uh black people.
01:35:40 uh groups that involved uh black people. So if in the event there was maybe there would have been more racist comments, racist banter and things like this. Um whereas it was me and there was Trevor
01:35:51 whereas it was me and there was Trevor dealing with the uh black black justice campaigns and um but Trevor himself um I've heard his evidence here and there's no reason to disbelieve how he
01:36:05 there's no reason to disbelieve how he felt but I certainly felt that the jokes he was getting um you know I had jokes directed at me for my various reasons but certainly Trevor had some jokes directed at him
01:36:18 Trevor had some jokes directed at him that were because uh he was black cuz that was considered you know I was different in other areas and that that was his difference but the other thing with Trevor um I don't know how clear it was but he was a person who's very very
01:36:31 was but he was a person who's very very capable of looking after himself as some sort of kung fu master at the time so once again you can't bully you can't do too too much against somebody uh who would deal with you
01:36:42 would deal with you going to come to specific individuals in a moment
01:36:43 a moment But as a matter of generality, are you
01:36:55 But as a matter of generality, are you able to help us with whether the sort of stereotypical attitudes towards black people that you have described in uniform
01:37:00 uniform were held by at least some within the SDS?
01:37:01 SDS? Yes.
01:37:09 And can you give us an idea of how widespread uh those stereotypical attitudes were?
01:37:18 The worst examples are the two managers that no doubt we're going to get on to, but the other ones um I don't know, just just general banters. So there'd be
01:37:30 just general banters. So there'd be laughs, there'd be jokes, but I'm saying it'd have the same jokes leveled at people who were say, I don't know, some Welsh or they were overweight or they were women. there there was nobody uh that the SDS's humor humor is a better
01:37:45 that the SDS's humor humor is a better word uh could not reach and this is the day before before they invented diversity inclusive equality it was before body positivity was there um we we yeah you yeah Christ everybody was up for it
01:37:59 for it and I'm understanding your evidence to be that that would include jokes about black people correct yeah Asian people correct
01:38:10 you aware ware that there was a particularly high incidence of racial violence and in particular attacks
01:38:20 attacks by white people on black and Asian people in Southeast London in the early '9s.
01:38:34 '9s. I I certainly I was generally aware of what was happening, but I was specifically aware and very very aware when I was on the SDS in the undercover role that I under undertook and uh I I
01:38:46 role that I under undertook and uh I I found sure we're going to get on to but I found the uh levels of violence astonishing absolutely astonishing and a totally eyeopener uh from my perspective and that's literally uh as soon as I
01:39:00 and that's literally uh as soon as I arrived at my uh beginning my posting at the Kingsbury College. Uh I'm interested in just a little bit earlier uh than that. Were you aware you you were obviously as we're going to
01:39:14 you were obviously as we're going to come to aware of the murder of Steven Lawrence. Were you aware of uh the murder of Roland Adams when you were in the back office? Yes. Yes.
01:39:21 Yes. Yes. And Rohit Dugal? Correct.
01:39:22 Correct. And was the unit aware that there were there was a high incident of racial violence in Southeast London in the early '90s.
01:39:38 London in the early '90s. Yes. But it's also overspilled earlier because we still had uh the effects of the Tottenham riots uh that were that were there as well. We had uh I can't remember exactly when with the time scales, but it wasn't long before I was
01:39:52 scales, but it wasn't long before I was uh in the SDS. We had the Rodney King uh event in LA as well. So there was certainly a a fear with regards to uh
01:40:04 certainly a a fear with regards to uh that there was definitely a problem with regards to uh black black which became the justice campaigns.
01:40:14 That's moving slightly away from the violence against the black and Asian people into the question of whether that consequentially led to anger and public disorder, isn't it? Yes. Yes.
01:40:26 Yes. Yes. We'll be exploring sorry
01:40:32 sorry uh that uh in a in a little while in more detail. We coming back to that. But before I do, I want to go through your chain of command. And the questions I'm going to ask you is to get an idea of how much personal contact you had with the person and whether or not you can
01:40:50 the person and whether or not you can recall that person ever behaving in a racist way in in any in any way. Yes.
01:40:51 Yes. Uh the commissioner Paul Condon. No. As in like Yeah. a meeting but certainly no racism from the commissioner.
01:41:02 commissioner. Assistant Commissioner of Special Operations William Taylor. I I can't remember him. I don't know if I ever met him. I I don't know. Assistant Commissioner Special Operations David Vanesse.
01:41:16 Operations David Vanesse. I think he came to the SDS after I'd left.
01:41:18 left. Can you recall ever meeting him? Not not when I was on the SDS. I had dealings with him later on after I'd left uh the the uh SDS with regards to
01:41:31 left uh the the uh SDS with regards to problems I had returning. He he was the senior officer involved but not not for the SDS and u no but that was by u letter correspondence. I don't think I've ever met him personally. Did he do or say anything racist?
01:41:46 Did he do or say anything racist? I I've never met him but I I'd be astonished if he did. DACS John Howley.
01:41:57 DACS John Howley. I knew Mr. Howley. No, he was he was special branch commander at one point as well. No, I didn't. Commander Buchanan? No.
01:42:06 No. I I knew him, but likewise, no. Commander Barry Moss, no.
01:42:09 no. Um,
01:42:10 Um, I know the answer to the next question is going to be yes. Chief Superintendent Robert Potter. Yes.
01:42:24 Yes. Can you help us? How often did you meet DCS Robert Potter?
01:42:43 I met him once before I joined the SDS when he told me I was going to go on the SDS. Uh there's no evidence of racism then. Um then when I was on the SDS I believe he came out before
01:42:56 believe he came out before the unceremoniously left the police service in October two maybe three times. I'd probably hedge my bet on twi twi twice. And where were these meetings?
01:43:07 And where were these meetings? First meeting was in his office. So we talking about the SDS meetings. Well you've told me the first meeting preds he wasn't racist in any way. As I'm understanding your evidence there
01:43:21 I'm understanding your evidence there are two more. You meet him on two other occasions which are both whilst you're in the SDS. Yes. And they're both in the safe houses. I can't remember I can't remember which one. I can certainly remember the October one. Uh that was what we call central London OP which um
01:43:35 what we call central London OP which um that that was there but the other one I don't know if that was at West but basically it would have been the SDS safeouses as they were called.
01:43:46 safeouses as they were called. Can we deal with the first one? In what circumstances did you meet DCS Potter on that first SDS occasion?
01:43:58 Potter on that first SDS occasion? I would have been uh still in the back office at that time. So he would have uh come out uh to the SDS meeting. I say I can't remember if that was central London or West London OP came along. Uh he was a very um Could I just stop you there? Sorry. For what purpose did he come?
01:44:11 what purpose did he come? Uh to rouse the troops type thing. He was he was um he was there in place before I arrived in the uh back office. You're obviously aware of his posting dates. I'm not, but he was already uh
01:44:23 dates. I'm not, but he was already uh chief superintendent. And by the time I first saw him come out, apparently he was an unusual uh senior officer because he was involved in the group. He'd come out become the groups and the best way
01:44:38 out become the groups and the best way describing him is he actually was almost like one of the lads. Uh and I felt uh the way
01:44:43 the way Sorry, can I stop you there? When you say he'd been involved in the groups and come out of the groups, what do you mean?
01:44:46 mean? Sorry, what did I say? I thought you said yes.
01:44:48 yes. He'd been involved in the groups and came out.
01:44:50 came out. Yeah. Now, this is what I personally thought because the way he was, he wasn't standoffish like the management, almost not understanding what the SDS was about. It was evident to me uh that
01:45:02 was about. It was evident to me uh that Bob Potter had a sort of a grasp of what the SDS was doing, almost how hard it was. He socialized with us hard as well, like a good drink. Um, other managers, they sort of come out, they sort of go
01:45:13 they sort of come out, they sort of go around the room, they go, "Oh, uh, this is what DC Francis does. This is who he is and all this blah." They don't sort of listen. They might have a quick drink and off they go. Uh, whereas, uh, Bob,
01:45:28 and off they go. Uh, whereas, uh, Bob, he'd make a point of actually chatting to you. I don't want to say to He's actually dead as well, isn't he? So, he's got no reply again. He is dead. See, this is on slightly difficult. Obviously, you must tell us. Yeah. The truth and the whole truth.
01:45:41 The truth and the whole truth. When you say he would drink with you, can I take it from that that on that first occasion, not only did he talk to the officers, including yourself, but also he drank with you?
01:45:57 with you? Yes. For me at the back role, he didn't have a really lot to say to me the first time around because really I was in the back back office. So really, he was talking more with the field officers who who would who were out there. But yeah, um sort of give the wrong impression of the SDS meetings. There quite often was
01:46:10 the SDS meetings. There quite often was a drink involved. Uh you were allowed to drink during the course of the meetings. Uh but they didn't necessarily have a lot of drinking, but certainly what struck me is when he was there as
01:46:22 struck me is when he was there as opposed to other senior officers when they came out, he was really happy to have a good drink. and the SDS was happy that they were seen to be having a good drink in his presence as well.
01:46:40 drink in his presence as well. Now, sticking with this first SDS occasion,
01:46:41 occasion, was he speaking to individuals separately or was he addressing the whole unit or was there a bit of both? Bit of both.
01:46:59 Uh, did he say or do anything racist on that first occasion? He his demeanor of nearly everybody. U, yes, he was certainly would have made
01:47:17 yes, he was certainly would have made some racist comments. not not hugely, but he was definitely Yeah, he he he it's just the way he was in lad's company. So, um I certainly heard him
01:47:33 company. So, um I certainly heard him use some language which necessary in the SDS you just didn't hear, but as he was the governor in charge of the unit, uh that that's there. Can you help us uh with the language that he used on that first occasion that you heard
01:47:52 [clears throat] specifically? No, I can't remember the exact words he used, but it was it colorful. His his language was always colorful.
01:47:59 colorful. Racist.
01:48:00 Racist. Yes.
01:48:04 Yes. Did he use the N word? I do not believe so on that occasion. Did he express any views about the black community in general?
01:48:15 community in general? He he did not hold them highly. He did not hold the activists highly either. Well, my question was did he express any views on that occasion? Yes. Yes.
01:48:30 Yes. Yes. Can you help us with what those were? as in because by then there was quite a lot um going on within the I think you described it the the black the black I don't know problem at that time it was building it certainly was
01:48:43 time it was building it certainly was building uh by then and you could see that he had an agitation with regard to the effect it was having on uh public disorder.
01:48:52 disorder. Can you help us with whether this meeting was before or after Steven Lawrence was murdered? Uh, post post.
01:49:07 Uh, post post. Did he say anything about Steven's case? No, not that I can recall.
01:49:16 Was he racist in front of officers other than you?
01:49:19 than you? Yes. I I don't think that first occasion I had a private consultation with them. This just would have been literally this is Peter in the back office. And because I'd only seen him in that December to get the confirmation that I was coming
01:49:32 get the confirmation that I was coming to the SDS, it was quite evident that he knew that I wasn't out yet. It was evident that he knew. And it's unusual for a manager again to be aware of who
01:49:43 for a manager again to be aware of who you are and what you what you're doing uh without having to be briefed.
01:49:59 uh without having to be briefed. Being very careful about anonymity. I want to explore with you who was at that meeting. Uh was HN86 there? Definitely. Yes. Was HN67 there? Yes.
01:50:04 Yes. Amongst the officers, would it be easier safely to try and identify those who were there or those who were not there?
01:50:13 It would have been a threeline whip for everybody to be there. So everybody within your timelines, which I really can't recall exactly, but for when the chief superintendent comes out, it's a threeline whip. So unless you're on
01:50:26 threeline whip. So unless you're on holiday in a hospital or something like that, you have to be there. I'm getting the impression then that what you're communicating to me is you cannot at this in time be absolutely certain of precisely who was there or
01:50:39 certain of precisely who was there or not, but it would have been most or all. Yes, correct, sir.
01:50:48 Was there anybody that he moderated his behavior around?
01:50:56 I don't think he felt that was necessary. Being detective, chief, superintendent in charge of the squad
01:51:08 superintendent in charge of the squad entire of your entire life, if you upset him off, you go to uniform. Uh, no. I don't think he had to moderate his Was Trevor Morris there? Yes.
01:51:12 Yes. Did he moderate his language around Trevor Morris? Not that I not that I can remember.
01:51:15 remember. He would have also had a oneto-one uh with Trevor Morris as saying that was Bob's forte. This is how he got to know you and I didn't have one to start off with. But certainly that meeting he
01:51:26 with. But certainly that meeting he would have had oneto ones uh with the officers. He was he was you know despite everything that eventually happened in
01:51:38 everything that eventually happened in STS terms he was very unusual because he was actually a very good very hands-on governor.
01:51:40 governor. Can I move to the second meeting? Um, but before I do, can I take it from
01:51:52 Um, but before I do, can I take it from your last answer that nobody challenged his racism? None whatsoever? No. Even Trevor Morris.
01:52:09 it it wasn't as awful as the onetoone that I had with him uh later on uh the meeting that we're just about to come to. So with regards to uh Trevor, I don't know uh what was said to him in the private meeting. Did anyone to your knowledge show Trevor Morris any support
01:52:24 Morris any support for being present whilst a very senior officer behaved in a racist manner? No. And me not either. In fact, if there's any comments at all, we probably found it hilarious at the time. There was a lot of laughter and joking about everything. And yet, to my shame, I
01:52:36 everything. And yet, to my shame, I wouldn't have said anything. If he in all honesty, would you stand up to a person that controls your entire career trajectory out? Uh, no. But you just accept it as he was known as Potty Bob.
01:52:49 accept it as he was known as Potty Bob. No offense, he's dead type thing, but he was known as Potty Bob. So, if if say for example, you've mentioned already Mr. Howley uh was entirely different very dapper uh sort of uh Bob was also a
01:53:06 very dapper uh sort of uh Bob was also a rugab bugger type that was just a branch terminology played a lot of rugby drank you know urine pints of urine all that sort of stuff uh and so he was one of them whereas the other senior officers who came out were very very different
01:53:17 who came out were very very different in in their way so you know if somebody like Mr. Howley said something you I think everybody would sort of die die
01:53:28 die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die of shock type thing whereas uh Py Bob I don't know if even if you would be offended type thing
01:53:39 offended type thing the position the picture you're painting and I'm asking this just to be clear is that Trevor Morris has to stand there listening to a senior officer being racist in the presence of all of his colleagues and his immediate managers is and there is no challenge to that at all
01:53:53 and there is no challenge to that at all and there is no sympathy shown to him at all.
01:54:00 all. No. Within the context though, you shouldn't say it, but it felt like it was funny at the time. Did Mr. Did Mr. Morris ever talk to you about that? No.
01:54:12 No. So, it's now a good time to take the morning break. Certainly. May I thank you for the great care you've been taking not to um speak of
01:54:25 you've been taking not to um speak of things [snorts] which we all know have to be kept um uh closed for for good reason. Uh I'm very grateful to you for the care you're taking.
01:54:36 taking. Sir, I haven't slept for about 10 years in anticipation for this worrying I was having.
01:54:43 We'll break for 15 minutes and resume then. Hold on.
02:15:28 Mr. B, just one more question on the first SPS meeting with Potter. Can you recall any racial slur that he used in front of others on that occasion?
02:15:47 No. my requirements to be truthful. I can't remember specifically. It's
02:15:53 It's the second meeting you've told us that was after you had deployed. Can you help us uh with that? First of all, was that again a mixture of an address to everyone and then individual meetings?
02:16:02 meetings? Yes, exactly the same format. Can we start with what he said in front of everyone? This this was particularly notable and this is why I can remember it well is
02:16:13 this is why I can remember it well is because we had the welling demonstration uh on the Saturday and this meeting then would have been on the Thursday following the meeting. So he was
02:16:25 following the meeting. So he was particularly I think the whole of the unit uh was particularly hyper uh because we had uh I know everybody's going to totally disagree with us uh but we had in policing terms for us a very successful event. I I know the
02:16:41 successful event. I I know the criticisms. I know there's going to be a lot more directed at us, but we felt it was successful as the ev the evidence the intelligence we gave uh the result despite casualties we felt successful.
02:16:52 despite casualties we felt successful. So the unit itself was on a high a hypo uh but very noticeable. Um Chief Superintendent Pot Potter was even more hyper uh than what he would be. So I I
02:17:04 hyper uh than what he would be. So I I can't remember what there was going on with regards to racism that he was saying uh there because my own meeting that I had with him later on during the course of the evening was far more
02:17:15 course of the evening was far more memorable than what he was saying. But he was certainly in the I'm saying disrespect somebody who's dead type thing, but he was definitely a little bit more potty than he was normally type thing
02:17:25 thing in front of everybody. In front of everybody. He was he was he was hyper hyper. And on the attendance
02:17:36 was hyper hyper. And on the attendance was it again everybody who could it was either everybody or almost everybody there.
02:17:40 there. It's I say it's in parliamentary terms it's a threeline whip. It's not just that you on the STS we had so few management meeting managers come out to meet us. Um it you you wanted to be
02:17:51 meet us. Um it you you wanted to be there. You actually wanted to be there. You wanted to make sure that the person in charge of the unit is actually aware of what you are doing. So, um, you know,
02:18:05 of what you are doing. So, um, you know, I would have even thought if people were going to be away, they would try to be be there. So, yeah, threeline whip unless you had a very very good reason not to be there. Was 86 there? Absolutely. 67.
02:18:26 Yes, it was 67 was there. Um, and also it was literally it was about a week that Bob Lambert was there. So Bob Lambert was also there. There must have been like a handover thing or because of
02:18:37 been like a handover thing or because of the big Welling demo uh that HN67 stayed on, but that that he was definitely there as well. They were both there. Can you [snorts] recall how soon after the October the 16th demonstration this visit took place?
02:18:49 visit took place? It was the first Thursday afterwards. So literally it was the 16th. So if we count four or five days, whatever that is, that that is the date. You you'll be able to know what the date is because that led to his arrest on the same
02:19:02 that led to his arrest on the same evening. Her arrest it led to him being referred to the police on the same evening.
02:19:04 evening. Was he the only senior officer outside the unit to visit or was he in company? He was the only officer. uh and in front of uh everyone before I
02:19:24 uh and in front of uh everyone before I say that c can you recall whether anyone any officer specifically wasn't there? No.
02:19:32 No. Before we move uh that on to your meeting then can you help us with the language
02:19:40 language that um Detective Chief Superintendent Potter used in front of other police officers? Was it racist?
02:19:50 I can't recall anything specifically, but he was certainly um he was certainly more swear uh swearing than what he normally was, and he was quite swear at the best of times, but uh he was
02:20:02 the best of times, but uh he was certainly more swear in the evening, but whether or not there was any Pacific racist ones in the general group, I can't remember. In relation to your meeting with him, uh your separate meeting with him, who was present at that meeting? that would have
02:20:19 present at that meeting? that would have been with uh definely HN86 was there and I think on the evening also HN67 was there.
02:20:23 there. So I'm getting an impression of a an individual meeting at which 8667 DCS Potter and you are party to this conversation.
02:20:38 conversation. Yes, but the same would have been for each SDS officer. I wasn't I wasn't set aside specifically that that was the format or what happened. And um I I just can't recall uh Bob Lambert being in that bit, but I can recall Bob Lambert being it was definitely it was
02:20:56 being it was definitely it was definitely central London OP as well cuz I saying the the evening turned out to be very memorable for a different reason. Uh so so the format is each UCO has some time with Potter but in the presence of managers.
02:21:04 managers. Yes.
02:21:06 Yes. Can you help us with the course of the conversation when you were speaking uh to DCS Potter in the presence of 86 and 67?
02:21:17 67? Just that as I said he was very very hyper very jubilant about what was deemed to be a great special branch success. Uh talking about that the commissioner was happy uh what had done
02:21:30 commissioner was happy uh what had done heard that the commissioner had sent out a bottle of whiskey uh for us. uh that that that was being talked about that he was going to he was going to bring it out. He's going to have a bottle of
02:21:41 out. He's going to have a bottle of whiskey for us. Very very hyper uh very pleased about what we did. Uh he was talking about the running battles that he had in that he had seen uh TV otherwise it was just just from that
02:21:58 otherwise it was just just from that side of it. But he also felt like we'd won with won uh the event that the uh the
02:22:05 the uh activists hadn't got what they wanted to do. So there was uh yeah very very buoyant uh in there and but the the racism the racism on the evening stemmed
02:22:17 racism the racism on the evening stemmed in relation to that we'd won one it felt like that we' won uh in that particular thing with regards to the racism as well. This is where his comments were coming from. So, can you explain what he said?
02:22:34 what he said? There there was a lot of very very derogatory, nasty um racist language being used to to express his views. First of all, can you tell us what views was he expressing
02:22:47 that he felt that
02:22:55 the you know sort of his that ch that the change that there was like a change was trying to happen with regards to the BMP bookshop and who were who was
02:23:09 BMP bookshop and who were who was anybody and that's where you get some racist terminology. Uh, who were they to, you know, do this and how dare they? And we we're in control with the police type thing.
02:23:26 control with the police type thing. And what sort of language was he using to convey um his displeasure with a challenge to the BMP bookshop?
02:23:37 Yeah, it's just all the whole lot was just one tirade of anti-activism.
02:23:48 anti-activism. He his key line used to be that the the left the right wing the right way around. The right wing had one brain cell and the left wing had two brain
02:23:59 cell and the left wing had two brain cells. So within all that negativity plus their
02:49:26 is of legitimate public interest and will be broadcast by the transcript
02:49:37 will be broadcast by the transcript which will be published this evening. Uh deleting only the very small passages that uh need to be deleted. May I say that um almost everybody who's had to speak of these difficult things has inadvertently said something that um has to be the
02:49:49 said something that um has to be the subject of the sort of order I've just made. Please don't worry. Uh indeed I I think on one view uh you were not to realize that what you said uh may have
02:50:03 realize that what you said uh may have crossed the line but um uh you've done admirably so far including this incident. Uh, I'm grateful to you. I have no idea what I've just said. No, I I I'm I'm well aware of that and it doesn't it doesn't surprise me
02:50:19 it doesn't it doesn't surprise me because as I say, you may well not have realized that there was a line to be crossed there. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Not a clue. Not a clue. There we go. I'm here. Hope you don't ask the same question again. I can't answer any other one.
02:50:32 can't answer any other one. I'll try not to. Um, Mr. Francis, uh, I was exploring with you the Monday meeting and what you were told about the incident involving DCS Potter. And in particular, what I my question
02:50:44 And in particular, what I my question is, were you and your colleagues told that there was a racist element to it?
02:51:00 No, we were not told that. But rumor, there certainly was a rumor, but not directly told by H&86. A rumor that it was a racist incident. And did that come as a surprise to people?
02:51:15 The the the pyrochnic event that it actually took uh that came as a surprise. The fact that he was uh racist uh should not come as a surprise to anybody at all.
02:51:35 anybody at all. Uh was uh was the rumor mill also saying anything about it being a sexist incident?
02:51:37 incident? No. And until I read the actual statement, I wasn't aware there was this this I don't know what I can say, but I was aware that he did something that
02:51:50 was aware that he did something that wasn't racist, but was a sexist. I I I was I've never been aware till I read that.
02:51:52 that. Yeah. Or we can say attempted to kiss somebody.
02:51:52 somebody. I was not aware of that. Yeah.
02:52:02 Was it known before the incident that DCS Potter was suffering from a pre-existing serious mental health condition?
02:52:17 condition? It was known by me. No. But I don't think anybody was aware there was the word diagnosed. But certainly he had a history of having mental health problems. But it's very difficult in the branch
02:52:28 difficult in the branch uh what is known as and diagnosed or what is just uh mental health behavior. When you say behavior, a condition that was capable of affecting his behavior.
02:52:43 was capable of affecting his behavior. Yes. But he was not alone. He was not alone in the branch with that.
02:52:53 Coming back to DCS Potter, DCS Potter has denied using racist language in front of you. Are you in any doubt that he did? No. None whatsoever.
02:53:16 Did HN86 ever mention DCS Potter when discussing the Lawren's or Steven's murder or the Lawrence campaign with you?
02:53:27 Did he talk to me about Potter? He was he was certainly present in a conversation that we had that involved the Lawrenes, but I can't remember a single occasion where HN86 said to me, "This is what Chief
02:53:41 said to me, "This is what Chief Superintendent Potter thinks about this or or that." No, no.
02:53:48 the conversation that you can recall at which both HN86 and DCS Potter were present and the Lawrenes were mentioned. Approximately when did that happen? same meeting that this this happened with
02:54:07 meeting that this this happened with regards to the um the Welling Bookshop, which was all tied in um with with the Lawren's U campaign because um
02:54:19 because um it was it was certainly seen by uh the SDS managers as in the whole bookshop incident only happened because of the Steven Lawrence murder. when the time frame earlier. So the
02:54:34 when the time frame earlier. So the conversation the bookshop about um that that's where it was felt that was the culmination of the Steven I totally I'm aware everybody's aware that there was a different demonstration that the
02:54:45 different demonstration that the Lawrence family were going on but it was felt that there was a lot being done on their behalf and um used in the campaign but I'm sure you're going to go in further later.
02:54:56 further later. I'm going to remind you again to speak up please. Yes. Can you help us with what in that conversation DCS Potter said about the Lawren's
02:55:05 Lawren's Steven or the campaign?
02:55:12 Yeah, he's trying to I was trying to remember within it or there was just his whole thing was that very racially that the campaign was
02:55:24 very racially that the campaign was being led is being orchestrated taken away used from the family by the people
02:55:41 away used from the family by the people that I was sent there to uh infiltrate. The feeling was that the the anger was being used and manipulated to cause something like the the bookshop being directed in in racist terms.
02:55:55 directed in in racist terms. Was DCS Potter racist about the Lawrenes?
02:56:01 Lawrenes? He he didn't identify them specifically uh racist comments. No, just just as some very generality.
02:56:14 What did HN86 say on the subject of the Lawren's Stevens murder or the campaign on that occasion? On that particular evening, I can't remember him saying anything more
02:56:26 remember him saying anything more specific. I think uh that was Bob Potter uh had the room that evening, but certainly in discussions uh that I had with HN86 post uh the murder of uh Steven was an extension of what um Bob Potter was
02:56:38 extension of what um Bob Potter was saying that he certainly felt that the campaign group was being manipulated and used by the extreme left uh purely
02:56:49 used by the extreme left uh purely really for their agenda and moving their agenda forward in extremely racist terms about the Lawrenes.
02:57:04 about the Lawrenes. Can you help us with those racist terms? I I Yeah, it's a bit uncomfortable saying it all, but yeah, I don't know. It sort of stopped, you know, the with regards to there was rings uh with regards to people having rings through their noses being pulled
02:57:15 rings through their noses being pulled pulled uh by the rings in their noses. uh which is im images of slavery, people like that. Um monkeys being organized. U Bob Potter,
02:57:29 monkeys being organized. U Bob Potter, his main one um that I heard him use was the n-word. Um H86 main forte was always referring to black. Not always. If he was particularly talking about them
02:57:44 was particularly talking about them negatively badly, he was always calling monkey. I apologize. It's it's not a nice thing to say but that that is what his main terminology when he was upset and he always regarded monkeys being
02:57:55 and he always regarded monkeys being organized. So if we really have uh you know the whole idea that these they're not capable of organizing their own groups. The left left are there
02:58:06 groups. The left left are there organizing for them and basically they're too dumb to realize they're only they're only involved because they're manipulating them. Uh, so that you know is is racism through and through.
02:58:23 is is racism through and through. Right. I'll be coming back to targeting conversations in in much more detail in a little while. In the meantime, can I resume going through your chain of command with those
02:58:35 through your chain of command with those questions about how well you knew people and whether they were ever racist. Superintendent Peter Lions. No. No. He'd come out to the meetings, but he was one of those very standoff governors that was there.
02:58:53 governors that was there. Acting Chief Superintendent HN 337, the officer who came out to speak to you about Mike Chitty. Yes. No.
02:58:57 Yes. No. Superintendent Roger Pierce. No, I never heard Roger use a racist term.
02:59:13 term. Can I move now to the commander of area three? First of all, can you help us? What was area three? Right. As in like I can't remember what the metropolitan police district was then in something like either six, it might have been six areas could have
02:59:27 might have been six areas could have been six areas. Three area would have been if you sort of imagine they probably Google it within about 3 seconds. There's like a pinpoint with Charing Cross being the center and then the Metropolitan Police District literally like a clock came out with
02:59:42 literally like a clock came out with certain sections and going going down three areas. It's not exactly like a clock. Three area included like from central London through uh Beexley Heath, Brmley, Penge, Wington, that sort of area. I can't be exactly specific.
02:59:59 Was that the area in which Steven Lawrence was murdered? Correct. Now, you you've said in some of your written evidence
03:00:12 written evidence uh in the past you seemed uncertain as to who the commander was, but you thought it was Commander Broadhurst. Is that correct?
03:00:24 that correct? No, I don't I don't know. I I was I I don't know when I was making a statement if I should be guessing anything. I suppose it's stupid to guess at something, but I did. But he's somebody I never met. I I never met him in my life.
03:00:31 life. Can I move now then into the management of the SDS itself? We've already touched upon uh HN86, but I want to ask you a little more
03:00:43 but I want to ask you a little more about him. Now, can can you help us first of all with whether or not he was a thoughtful manager?
03:00:52 manager? I would describe him as being thoughtful. Yes. Would he go out of his way for other people?
03:01:14 You wouldn't risk his career over it. I'm not suggesting doing anything quite as dramatic as that. But would he was he a helpful character? Yes, he helped me. Uh, for example, when do you want me to stop now or just one single answer? I don't want to go off.
03:01:28 single answer? I don't want to go off. He just helped me. Uh, for example, uh, I had a very young son when I was out out and he said that when I was deployed, he'd try to help get me some work that ensured that I had the, uh, holidays off. Uh, when uh, yeah, so helpful. That's one specific example I
03:01:40 helpful. That's one specific example I can give in relation to me specifically. Was that characteristic of him?
03:01:55 I'd say it's fair enough. Yeah, it's a fair enough characteristic of him. Were there any exceptions to who he would help?
03:02:04 There's an exception with an officer that I was aware he really didn't like and some people described it as uh the wrong chemistry. That might have been, but that is Trevor Morris. he was the only uh you know saying he's he's a
03:02:15 only uh you know saying he's he's a black officer but Trevor also uh he was an officer who would actually speak his mind
03:02:24 mind over SDS issues and other issues that concerned him which um not only was he was he black um he he would also he
03:02:37 was he black um he he would also he would stand up he would certainly say things like say with regards to some of the things that were going on the SDS he would say to H86, um, which other officers
03:02:50 um, which other officers knowing what H86 is like, and I certainly had an insight into what HN86 was like, and he he was he was the governor. He was the governor, and you
03:03:02 governor. He was the governor, and you had to you had to respect his authority. Uh, he was not into whatever it is, joint management or anything else. He used to describe his second in command HN67
03:03:10 HN67 as an I wouldn't trust and burn a bit of toast. So he he he he micromanaged every bit of it. Um, from there
03:03:27 you've already told us that he used the word monkeys to describe black people and he referred to black people being led through led by the ring through
03:03:40 led through led by the ring through their noses. Did he use other racist terms? I I had nine months of him literally every morning, won't say
03:03:52 literally every morning, won't say where, picking him up in the morning, uh taking him to uh the SDS offices and uh taking him back in the evening. It wasn't a short journey. I allowed to say sort of about 45 minutes to an hour I was in the car with him depending on the traffic. And during the course of those nine months,
03:04:04 nine months, I I can't think of a derogatory term with regards to black people he did not use. and the Metropolitan Police had quite a repertoire uh of different ways of describing black people. U and I'm
03:04:18 of describing black people. U and I'm very sure I heard every single one of them.
03:04:21 them. I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to expand upon that. And I thought I' breached something again. Right. Okay. Good. Give us some examples of the slurs he used.
03:04:36 used. Saying they're all very there, but the I I don't like using them, but we have to remember this is in the 1990s. So, black people unfortunately referred to as jungle bunnies. Um, they were referred to as sis. They were referred to stills. And for
03:04:50 They were referred to stills. And for ones who haven't heard it, that meant they could because there was a point that they turned around and said you mustn't use certain language. the police actually there was a there was a
03:05:01 actually there was a there was a directive from the yard came out um that basically says you mustn't use certain
03:05:12 basically says you mustn't use certain um words and so they referred to them as stills. So they wouldn't actually use the word but they'd used the word uh still that was there uh coons uh coons was certainly used within there and um
03:05:22 was definitely used
03:05:30 I I don't know without thinking a lot more
03:05:34 more and that to be absolutely clear used by hn86 in your presence he had a repertoire language for black people.
03:05:47 for black people. And again, to be clear, before or after the directive prohibiting the use of that sort of slur. I'm not sure when that came out. So, this could have come out well before I was even having the conversation with them. It's just if people say, "What is a still?" That's one of the ones that
03:06:00 a still?" That's one of the ones that people weren't weren't aware of what it actually was.
03:06:06 Did he speak like that in front of other members of the SDS? I'd be surprised if he didn't in smaller smaller groups. He didn't do it on
03:06:19 smaller groups. He didn't do it on largely outspoken and I think the main reason is because Trevor Morris was there and Trevor and uh H86 certainly had a difficult relationship and HN86
03:06:29 and HN86 he he actually said to me that he just didn't trust Trevor and his feeling was that he might go over over the side as
03:06:42 that he might go over over the side as in go back go back to black people. He This is when we get on to tasking and why I I think HN78 wasn't necessarily tasked with the same thing I was, but I'm sure you come back to tasking later. Did you hear HN86
03:06:58 Did you hear HN86 used racist slurs in front of anybody else?
03:07:15 I think racist banter with regards to joking and things like this uh was there, but I'm not sure if he actually used the same racist slurs he did with
03:07:28 used the same racist slurs he did with me in the car, but there certainly would have been part of the jokes or the I don't know. Yeah, specifically. No. Can you help us with any racist banter uttered by HN86?
03:07:46 uttered by HN86? Yes. as in he he was if there was some I don't know if I'm going to breach something. We certainly had some officers who expressed racist things because of where they were type thing and he would
03:08:00 where they were type thing and he would not not dismiss that and would add bits to it. So if they were talking negatively about black people, uh he he would uh it'd be part of the banter. But I I know we're getting into
03:08:14 But I I know we're getting into difficulty areas now there, but that's people maybe in role more than otherwise.
03:08:26 You have described a general atmosphere in which there was racist joking within the SDS. Did HN86 do anything to stop it? No,
03:08:29 it? No, nothing whatsoever. Did he do anything to encourage it? I I wouldn't put the word encouragement. I wouldn't put the word encouragement in there. But if he was the leader of it,
03:08:41 there. But if he was the leader of it, if he had set a very very clear example uh you know that it wouldn't be tolerated, then I think it would have been entirely different. Did he participate in it? Yes.
03:08:59 Could you help us with the terms in which HN86 referred to Imran Khn as he then was
03:09:13 Imran Khn as he then was basically it's when uh Mr. Khn came out of uh the Lawrence's house uh very early. He was very concerned that uh Mr. Khan himself came out. His legal
03:09:28 Khan himself came out. His legal reputation uh preceded him uh even then, let alone now. Uh that that really wasn't going to be a good day for the Metropolitan Police. But I I never heard him specifically make any racist
03:09:46 him specifically make any racist comments about the race of Mr. Kahn. It was just uh himself with Mr. Mansfield was certainly known uh in a phrase of pain in the ass. The Metropolitan Police type thing. Was the phrase devil incarnate ever used in relation to Mr. Mansfield?
03:10:06 in relation to Mr. Mansfield? This is Yeah. This is as in like the whole idea of what they were when they basically walked out. So it was a a joint a joint thing that that's how he felt. And um when I sat down later on uh
03:10:26 felt. And um when I sat down later on uh with uh the slistister in regards to the Ellison um Louis Cheryl Ambus he he turned round and he also described that as was that my
03:10:38 he also described that as was that my feeling at the time that's how they were described. So I think H86 at no point did he run out and say oh the devil incarnates walked out the front door. It's like a mad mad conversation, but it's his descriptive terminology of what what was happening there.
03:10:56 Was that feeling widely shared within the SDS about Mr. Mansfield? Uh, actually it was more Mr. Khn. It was Mr. Khn as well. The the it's known the
03:11:08 Mr. Khn as well. The the it's known the monitoring group now. back in the day, I think it was a south or monitoring group, whatever it was, it it was well known uh for police accountability and whether or not the police really wanted to be accountable is questionable, but
03:11:24 to be accountable is questionable, but they found the motivations of Mr. Kahn and Mr. Mansfield, both known to the special branch already, uh particularly Mr. Mansville extensively. Uh they felt that really them coming out Lawrence's
03:11:37 that really them coming out Lawrence's house. I don't think they considered for one minute this is going to be accountability good. Uh this is going to be not not a good day for the Met. And then not that long afterwards, I don't
03:11:48 then not that long afterwards, I don't know what we're talking about. Matter of weeks, all of a sudden we then had Nelson Mandela involved. Uh you know, we've gone a whole new level. this this is not this is like nothing we've ever seen before and that upset uh you could
03:12:04 seen before and that upset uh you could certainly see in H86 that this this was turning into something ex extra extraordinary and it is it is an extraordinary campaign to this day.
03:12:17 extraordinary campaign to this day. Can you help us with the sort of things that were being said within the SDS about Mr. Khn?
03:12:32 It wasn't too derogatory about him. It was more of is that is one sharp cookie over there and then when he's involved that that's not a good but the the racism side I I didn't hear a racist side mention at all. I think that was incidental uh the same as um Mr. Mansfield when he was there.
03:12:47 Mansfield when he was there. In what circumstances would a registry file be opened on a lawyer?
03:12:59 you you think you actually had probably in the witness box u I would have asked commander a gun that question. So, but from my guess of what I'd expect is you would have in special branch terms, I'd say no less than about five or six
03:13:11 say no less than about five or six mentions to get yourself a special branch file. I think if they turn around and say actually he's a solister, I think they have to make sure that their
03:13:26 think they have to make sure that their definition of subversion really applied to them. The special branch officers and certainly the SDS officers were and I I
03:13:39 certainly the SDS officers were and I I regarded myself very much. you had to be very very careful with regards to recording people. Uh because I was very aware uh I know some of the SDS officers
03:13:50 aware uh I know some of the SDS officers played like a numbers game. They do like lots and lots of theirs people on the reports. If you look at my reports that I I listed as few people as possible because I always felt that after five or
03:14:06 because I always felt that after five or six you you might end up getting a file. So getting back to Mr. Khn he only had bit or Mr. Mansford he only had a mentioned about six to eight times it had to be DCI or above I couldn't create a file and that they would literally go back to the officers and make sure that
03:14:21 back to the officers and make sure that somewhere under that very wide range of subversion uh that would count if Mr. Khn was a member of say for example what was the socialist part thing at the time so the H halladane society if it's like a member of something like that which was
03:14:37 member of something like that which was like socialist lawyer group or whatever it was uh that would because that's a socialist group yeah that that that would warrant it but anything above six to eight uh things and I always took a
03:14:49 to eight uh things and I always took a great deal of care hopefully not enough probably uh to make sure I didn't mention people I've asked you a lot of questions about racism within the unit and racism uh of U
03:14:58 U HN86.
03:15:00 HN86. Can you recall any conversations whilst you were in the unit about Baroness Lawrence which were racist?
03:15:23 Not specifically, just under the general terminology that that whole campaign was regarded as a group of monkeys being
03:15:35 was regarded as a group of monkeys being led led. But I never heard um Bob Potter H86 say anything specifically racist about the Baroness. I'll add to it as well. Uh and uh so never Lawrence either. No.
03:15:46 either. No. Dwayne Brooks. Yes. Yes. There was racist terminology used particularly by HN86 about him. How did HN86 describe Dwayne Brooks?
03:16:03 How did HN86 describe Dwayne Brooks? He really didn't like him. It just it's just insane. The whole whole thing is uh you know obviously he he what what what happened to him uh there a total victim of what ended up having having with him. Uh but H86 just for whatever reason it
03:16:20 Uh but H86 just for whatever reason it was apparent he really didn't like like him. And in what ways was HN 86's
03:16:22 86's comments about Dwayne Brooks racist? He regarded in in his eyes HN86
03:16:35 He regarded in in his eyes HN86 regarded uh Dwayne Brooks and he'd never say his first name properly either. It make it sound thick. Um he regarded him as being the typical black teenager. Uh, you know, I I don't know enough about
03:16:47 you know, I I don't know enough about his circumstances is only the rumor I was aware at the time, but he was a bad kid. He was living in a hostel. His family didn't want them. He's in trouble. And that for H86 was the
03:17:03 trouble. And that for H86 was the summary of him. It go gets worse because on the evening, what actually happened um H86 was quite pacific about what his feelings were about Mr. Brooks, but saying, you know, I don't know if I
03:17:15 saying, you know, I don't know if I should be saying any of this. Protect him.
03:17:17 him. It's required. Could you please tell us what was said? Uh, the word No. Well, yeah, it
03:17:26 I prefer you to read it. What I said
03:17:36 uh wished it had been words to the effect of would rather it had been him, not Steven. Yes. and the fact he was a chicken.
03:17:47 And that was HN86. Yes.
03:17:51 Yes. And how sure are you that he said that? Oh, thousand%. And where were you when he said that? that he's I put it down to his car and
03:18:04 that he's I put it down to his car and basically what what it is is you know he basically said that nobody decent on this planet would run away when you [clears throat] are um there in that situation and that you wouldn't you know that you'd leave him dying there you
03:18:16 that you'd leave him dying there you then go away and you didn't come back you didn't do the first aid I don't know if any of this is true cuz I wasn't there. But that was his feeling. And yes, he went further to say that the
03:18:32 yes, he went further to say that the whole campaign, the entire campaign, uh, wouldn't have actually happened at all in the slightest if, unfortunately, Dwayne Brooks was actually killed on the evening instead of Steven. Can you help us with when that was said to you in the car?
03:18:47 to you in the car? It wasn't straight away. It wasn't straight away. Christ. It would have been sometime post when he died when when the campaign really started to get some momentum and saying when Mr. Kah
03:19:00 some momentum and saying when Mr. Kah was there, Michael Mansfield was there, you had Nelson Mandela there is it's just it was huge. Absolutely huge. And so then I think his frustration
03:19:12 so then I think his frustration I it was evident when I was in the car with him that the frustration with regards to public order where it might be going in the Met. Bearing in mind this was what we were there for. It's a special demonstration squad and I I can
03:19:24 special demonstration squad and I I can see it on his watch because it the buck stopped with him. He was he was a senior officer that literally controlled the unit. It was the buck definitely stops
03:19:35 unit. It was the buck definitely stops with him. and you know which if you had sort of like other managers as well you
03:19:48 sort of like other managers as well you might be able to sort of blame somebody else but this this was all coming down to him and I felt the pressure in the car with him that he was getting I I don't know where the pressure came from externally but the SDS does not live in a vacuum we are providing uh resources to be area you've mentioned three area
03:20:09 to be area you've mentioned three area we're providing at the TO20 or A8 as it used to be called in the old days um you're providing up high. He was constantly talking um HNS6 was constantly talking about um you know our information goes straight to the commissioner. The prime minister is aware of us. The home secretaries are
03:20:22 aware of us. The home secretaries are now aware of us. So this biggest public order event that's taking place uh you know it's it was the it was his pole tax and he he's it's his watch. When you say biggest public order event, do you mean
03:20:34 biggest public order event, do you mean the Lawrence campaign or are you talking about a specific incident?
03:20:45 about a specific incident? Is it was building up to it and then we ended up with Welling it was it was like forecasted it was forecasted that this event was growing. It was going to go somewhere and it was evident his frustration which was it was it was huge that his frustration that he was it was getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
03:21:01 getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Did he say anything more about the home office?
03:21:05 office? No. As in just general, the home office knows about us and he went into there was previous funding and the home office is aware the home secretary is sort of
03:21:17 is aware the home secretary is sort of like a direct line a direct line to the home secretary direct line to whoever whoever is is very much who had a direct line to the home secretary.
03:21:29 secretary. In according to him he did. we had in the DCI is the it was the small flat uh that we were in the DCI and the DI had an office and in the DCI's office they DCI and DI's office the management they had a secure telephone and secure
03:21:40 had a secure telephone and secure telephone if anybody knows back in the day uh used to be used to have a you
03:21:47 day uh used to be used to have a you pick up it's an old dialy phone probably most people have even seen them diialy phone lifted up and when you're there used to have a button that you press when it was secure and so you know that that isn't you're not ringing up just the special branch randomly for that.
03:21:58 the special branch randomly for that. You're you're taking some serious high high-end calls for that. Do you have do you actually know whether or not HN86
03:22:10 or not HN86 ever spoke to the home secretary in his capacity as DCI of the SDS? He never came back and said, "Oh, I spoke to whoever was on on them." No. And what did he say about the prime minister?
03:22:28 minister? As in like the prime minister was aware of us. The prime minister was definitely aware of the SDS. He never said I spoke to whoever would have been in charge. Then
03:22:36 Then did he say anything which shed any light on how the prime minister knew about the SDS?
03:22:46 SDS? The word desk seems to feature the word desk as in it's on his desk. It's on the prime minister's desk. It's on the home secretary's desk. It's here at disc, there at disc. Can you help us with whether that was a reference to the the issue of Stephen
03:22:57 reference to the the issue of Stephen the Steven Lawrence campaign was on the desk of these politicians or whether there was a chain of communication between the SDS and those politicians.
03:23:15 there would have you do your reports. No, don't know. Don't know. But he was saying he dropped into conversation that this is the sort of level that we're at.
03:23:34 You have described HN86 being very racist in front of you, but I'm getting the impression less so in front of others. Was there any reason why he would be more racist in front of you in the car than in front of others?
03:23:47 the car than in front of others? So, I'm saying I wasn't privy to private one-to-one meetings. And there's certainly uh two pe well certainly one person I could put down who I got no reason to suppose one microcond he would have held back on his racist views. And
03:24:03 have held back on his racist views. And does it come down to this that if he thought you were racist, he might be racist in front of you? or is that too simplistic? Well, I certainly hope that myself um certainly the definition of racism
03:24:25 certainly the definition of racism that's been raised through this inquiry. I would certainly have to hold my hand up to my behavior could certainly be regarded as racist, but I wouldn't regard myself as a racist person. Certainly nowhere near on par with regards to H86. My best friend on the SDS, don't even
03:24:40 My best friend on the SDS, don't even call him my best friend anymore. uh but was Trevor Morris. Uh so that's there. But would he feel comfortable in my presence? Yes. Would he think for one micro second that I'd ever report him? Absolutely not. Uh I wouldn't have
03:24:51 him? Absolutely not. Uh I wouldn't have done. So if there's a degree of loyalty, I'm being very very careful with identities. Um the other officer you've said he would have no qualms about speaking to in racist manner. Is that
03:25:06 speaking to in racist manner. Is that something? Is that speculation or is it actual knowledge? No, because the conversations that you occasionally had with him weren't quite as bad, but he was certainly quite colorful in his language as well. Do you mean he was a racist? I
03:25:20 I I'm getting difficult area now because he Well, I just answer the question specifically. Yes.
03:25:25 Yes. Was he somebody who used racist language?
03:25:28 language? Yes. But whether or not that was Yeah. Thank you. Do you want me to write it down? Uh, if you write down the name cuz rather than go through this lot, I'll just give you
03:25:41 I'll just give you I think the other officers will be very relieved I don't look through that anyhow cuz I don't know all of them type thing. So, they'll probably refer me not to look at it. I don't want to keep any more secrets. I'm sick of them.
03:26:06 Thank you.
03:26:25 Um, I'll show it to you. Anyway, one more question before I invite the chairman to rise for lunch.
03:26:37 chairman to rise for lunch. You've said that HN86 made plain that he viewed Dwayne Brooks as a coward. Yes.
03:26:41 Yes. And advance that as the explanation for why he said what he said about wishing it had been him and not Steven who had been murdered. Was there any other reason given
03:26:54 what that he particularly like disliked him?
03:26:59 him? Why he wished it had been Dwayne and not Steven who had been murdered? A far more easier campaign to stop. Far more easier. And uh you know any of the people that I've heard speak so eloquently with regards to the black
03:27:14 eloquently with regards to the black justice campaigns, what they were always concerned about is that you know the media, the police could use anything against them. And really, you know, if you imagine the headlines now that uh
03:27:31 you imagine the headlines now that uh the person killed on the evening was a drug dealer um living in a hostel uh through there, would that have garnered the sympathy whatsoever? And I think that that's what H86 driving thing uh
03:27:53 that that's what H86 driving thing uh behind it was. Would it be fair then to say that at a relatively early stage after Steven's murder, there was an appreciation within the SDS that Steven came from a good home? As soon as the Metropolitan Police themselves were aware of that through
03:28:11 themselves were aware of that through what we've just mentioned there special branch area on it certainly wouldn't have taken long to filter into the special branch then the SDS of that it's certainly wouldn't have been and it might have been directly as soon as as
03:28:24 might have been directly as soon as as soon as anybody in a senior position in the three area were aware uh of of the family I The baroness
03:28:36 uh of of the family I The baroness described it so well of saying that the police felt that she wasn't a typical family, which presumably she meant a typical black family. And as soon as that became known, I'd be very very sure that it would been filtered high on into us with the same feeling.
03:28:50 us with the same feeling. When did you first get the impression that Steven came from a good home?
03:29:05 I think quite early on. I I don't think it's a matter of days. We're probably talking a few weeks. Few weeks. I I can't 100% remember, but it certainly wasn't long. It's certainly well before I was deployed.
03:29:16 I was deployed. Sir, is that a convenient moment to take the lunch? Certainly. Uh we'll um resume at 2.