Continuation of DCI Eric Docker's testimony covering multiple undercover identities, reporting on a schoolgirl's sexuality and personal life, the culture of recording female activists' attractiveness, his complete ignorance of Bob Lambert's sexual activity and fathering of a child, the controversial removal of Stefan Scott from the SDS, the divisive impact on the unit including Bob Lambert pushing HN109 against a wall, and the dilemma between discipline and operational security.
00:02:28 e e
00:03:24 good morning everybody uh today's proceedings are at least in part going to be live streamed um those with uh electronic devices may use them to transmit what they hear in the hearing room but only after 15 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're
00:03:35 elapsed since the event that they're describing uh such devices may not be used for uh recording or
00:03:43 photography Mr bar thank you sir Mr Docker just a couple of questions to follow up from yesterday to start with first of all I showed you a report that was about the swp and the Trevor monoville campaign yes could you just
00:04:00 monoville campaign yes could you just help us with uh the likely customer for that
00:04:02 that intelligence within the within special
00:04:16 intelligence within the within special Branch the customer would have been um cquad and any particular desk within cquad whichever desk covered the swp any
00:04:18 swp any others not that I can recall no uh secondly I asked you uh a little bit about undercover officers
00:04:30 about undercover officers generating more than one false identity
00:04:41 generating more than one false identity using more than one deceased children's identities I want to show you a couple of documents which relate to John D first of all could we have up please 746 348
00:04:54 [Music]
00:05:12 this is a report about John dyes it's in the context of security after problems with Mike chitty in the 1990s so it's long after your
00:05:27 in the 1990s so it's long after your time but if we could go please to page three
00:05:33 attached to this profile about chitty is um a su a card with information on it are you familiar with that format of of
00:05:44 with that format of of document not familiar with it no um it's about John dyes sets out as you will see his warrant number date of birth other
00:06:00 his warrant number date of birth other uh information relevant to his service in in special branch and the
00:06:01 and the SDS and then it sets out his Target as
00:06:12 SDS and then it sets out his Target as London Green Piece Alf and sets out his cover name Philip John Barker known as John if we could have the manuscript Amendment immediately to the right of that name expanded
00:06:35 please you'll see on arrest will use one of his three names as surname address as shown so it appears that somebody at that stage knew that he had more than
00:06:46 that stage knew that he had more than one identity yes if we take that down now please could we have up 746
00:06:57 348 this is Mr D's witness statement to the inquiry when it comes up
00:07:32 ah I've got a wrong reference can we have up Mr D's first witness statement to the inquiry
00:07:45 [Music]
00:07:52 please thank you could we have page 73
00:08:03 and I'm looking
00:08:10 for I'm looking for paragraph 139 that's my statement I think yes it's John the same to John D
00:08:33 the reference number is uh ucpi lots of zeros 35078 thank you sir page
00:08:50 73 paragraph 1 139.0 at the bottom I can only surmise that a username Wayne kadigan when arrested on the 31st of
00:09:01 kadigan when arrested on the 31st of March 19 1990 because of panic confusion and uncertainty on my part I can't
00:09:10 and uncertainty on my part I can't recall what I was thinking at the time I think it was accepted practice that in the event of arrest you would mislead the officers by using your assumed identity having a second identity would have been considered a mark of credibility to those with whom I
00:09:29 credibility to those with whom I associated with in my cover identity it was a way to ingratiate or insinuate myself with them the use of false documentation by others upon whom I was reporting was not uncommon although the
00:09:44 reporting was not uncommon although the custody record relating to my arrest on this occasion indicates that I was in possession of a driving license when arrested I do not recall having the license or what name was on it I have also considered documentation which
00:09:55 also considered documentation which shows that a license in the name Wayne cadigan existed in 1988 bearing the same address and date of birth shown on the custody record I
00:10:07 birth shown on the custody record I don't recall having a license in the name Wayne kadigan but I accept the records in the witness pack suggests
00:10:18 records in the witness pack suggests that I did I obviously applied for the license but I don't recall the application process it is our understanding that there was a dvla record in the name
00:10:30 there was a dvla record in the name Wayne kadigan which is a material name in June of
00:10:36 1988 which of course is when you were serving in the SDS do you have any recollection now of Mr dyes telling you or you speaking to
00:10:53 Mr dyes telling you or you speaking to him about a driving license in a second cover
00:10:58 identity I have no no recollection of that whatsoever The Only Name That is Vaguely Familiar to me is his original cover
00:11:10 cover name your evidence yesterday was that an officer should not have more than one
00:11:22 officer should not have more than one cover identity and if you had discovered an officer with a second identity it's likely uh that the officer would have been removed from the squad having read Mr D's evidence um about the purpose for which he used it does that remain your evidence or
00:11:36 does that remain your evidence or not I had no indication as an SDS manager that officers had more than one identity if they had had another identity and I had found out about it
00:11:51 identity and I had found out about it certainly I would have looked at it very seriously with a view perhaps to removing them from SDS but it would have had to depend on the circumstances
00:12:02 had to depend on the circumstances and I would have probably had to take some counsel from senior officers as well and having seen what Mr dines has said a way to ingra ingratiate or
00:12:15 said a way to ingra ingratiate or insinuate himself uh with his Target group and a practice that was not uncommon amongst them what what would your view have been on those
00:12:27 your view have been on those facts well in those days I did not have a view on those facts cuz I simply did not know about it now my question that's why my question was what would your view have been what would my view have been in those days yes had I known about it
00:12:43 in those days yes had I known about it yes um I would have taken steps to stamp that practice out could we take that document down now please uh could we have up 74945
00:13:00 this is your witness statement to the inquiry page 104 please
00:13:40 and paragraph that's 109 yes I need paragraph 328 on paragraph 104
00:13:51 please thank you paragraph 328 reads I have been referred to then there's a document reference which reports on an individual's Bank Account Details I do not recall this it is nothing SDS would
00:14:05 not recall this it is nothing SDS would pursue but I can see that a copy of this has gone to the security service and they might well pursue it so we can see uh that bank details were sometimes
00:14:16 uh that bank details were sometimes reported was any special consideration given to the reporting of confidential information such as Bank Account
00:14:33 Details in my POS position as a manager then I had no information about any of the officers individual bank accounts if this is not officer's bank accounts these are the bank accounts of
00:14:47 accounts these are the bank accounts of either activists or the groups that they are members of yeah was there any special consideration given to recording the financial details of members of the public and political groups no special
00:15:04 public and political groups no special um no special Arrangements at all as far as I can remember this was obviously included within a report from the officer and it was um forwarded in the normal course of events had you ever had any training uh about confidential information and the
00:15:18 about confidential information and the circumstances in which a police officer could take uh confidential information before you joined the SDS no and we can take it you didn't have any whilst you were in the SDS
00:15:29 were in the SDS no could we take that down please could we have up next uh tab B70 sir
00:15:38 sir 74
00:15:41 74 [Music]
00:15:49 559 this is uh an intelligence report dated the 17th of June 1988 you will see that it's one that you have signed could we look first of all at um paragraph
00:16:12 two privacy a school girl age 16 and a half years of address is developing into a highly active animal rights campaigner were there any guidelines about
00:16:20 about reporting on children within special Branch none that I'm aware of and as we know none within the SDS
00:16:31 know none within the SDS no on what basis then would a decision
00:16:47 no on what basis then would a decision be taken as to whether or not to record and put on file intelligence about a school girl aged 16 and a half this report which would be part of the intelligence that the officer has obtained would have been sent again across to the appropriate Squad they would have decided what should be
00:17:02 would have decided what should be referenced in special Branch records that would not have been my decision your decision was whether or not to let it out of the SDS office to go up to C Squad
00:17:16 go up to C Squad I I didn't at the time give that a lot of consideration I must confess um but it was part of the intelligence report and therefore I didn't see it as my job to re redact
00:17:29 didn't see it as my job to re redact that particular part of it could we go to paragraph three
00:17:37 please privacy lives with her divorced mother whom it appears is unable to exercise any parental control over her when not at home privacy privacy stays with her boyfriend privacy in the cuden
00:17:48 with her boyfriend privacy in the cuden area she is additionally a member of the women's movement and her several lesbian friends in Central and South London with whom she has occasionally
00:18:04 Affairs again were there any guidelines on reporting the sexual activity and sexual orientation of children not that I can recall or of adults not that I can
00:18:20 adults not that I can recall uh this intelligence is certainly not necessary for public order reasons is it no it's part of the intelligence report from the officer it's not relevant to subversion possibly
00:18:38 possibly not when you say possibly not um it I well I'll once we've had the next paragraph I'll come back to that
00:18:49 question uh if we could zoom out for the moment though is it right that this was not copied to the security service it doesn't appear to Bear a box 500 stamp no well I can't tell without seeing the minute sheet it's unlikely I would think
00:19:03 unlikely I would think what was special Branch's interest in this adolescent sex
00:19:12 life I don't think we had any interest in it at all but it became part of the intelligence report and as such was forwarded in the normal course of events if you had no interest in her sex life at
00:19:24 at all and it's obviously a very sensitive part of somebody's life life why wasn't this
00:19:35 this excised I can't answer that should have been shouldn't it I don't necessarily agree with that excuse me the inference is that this young lady will develop into a highly active Animal Rights
00:19:49 into a highly active Animal Rights Campaign as it says in paragraph two it therefore might have been apposite at the time to have details of her on file should that um come to fruition
00:20:01 should that um come to fruition including her sex life I don't regard that that would not have been recorded um apart from in this report it would not have been a consideration really was there any culture uh in
00:20:15 really was there any culture uh in within special Branch uh all the SDS of scrutinizing reports to take out material which wasn't necessary for policing
00:20:22 policing purposes in terms of what we were doing on the unit and in the office the answer to that would be no
00:20:31 could we look at paragraph four
00:20:39 please privacy is an active member of cuden Animal Aid Bramley Animal Rights group and sidcup Hunt sabur group she is also attempting to form an animal rights youth group in South London this Venture
00:20:56 youth group in South London this Venture however has not met with a very positive response on Monday the 13th of June she was present at the picket outside the old Old Bailey at the commencement of
00:21:07 old Old Bailey at the commencement of the Clark and Shepherd trial in addition she is a member of the anti-ap parite movement and regularly attends the picket outside South Africa house so we get a description of her campaigning
00:21:20 campaigning activities there is no suggestion there that she is committing any criminal offenses is there not in that paragraph So coming back uh to uh the question of subversion there's nothing
00:21:33 question of subversion there's nothing there about sub that's subversive either is there no but it does say she's a member of a sabotage group and they have a propensity to cause public disorder
00:21:45 a propensity to cause public disorder therefore in my view that is a perfectly relevant thing for the officer to report could we take that down now please could we go back uh to your witness statement 74945
00:21:59 page
00:22:09 104 paragraph 329
00:22:21 please I have been referred to the identification of a report which reports on the sexuality of a member of the target group with the collection and collation of intelligence you did not know if that sort of information might have held current or even future
00:22:35 have held current or even future reference it might have been helpful for potentially approaching them as an informant in the future and also for background information as to the context in which they joined a subversive group
00:22:48 in which they joined a subversive group this is relevant to recruitment tactics of the
00:22:57 of the group we understand uh that report as it says in the first line to relate to sexual Ori orientation is it right that sexual orientation would be recorded uh for the
00:23:09 orientation would be recorded uh for the potential of facilitating an approach to an
00:23:10 an activist to act as an informant it may have been relevant we're talking of 37 years ago and in those days I I would presume um any
00:23:26 those days I I would presume um any information on a prospective informant could be useful and would it depend uh whether their sexuality was open or hidden not
00:23:44 hidden not particularly well one sees the leverage one might have over somebody who was hiding
00:23:46 hiding something but not in the
00:23:58 something but not in the 1980s somebody who was openly gay do you agree I'm not quite sure I understand the T ten of your question um I I regard this as merely information that may be useful in a possible
00:24:13 that may be useful in a possible approach to them nothing more than that how would it be useful it would give an opening Gambit perhaps to talk to them I don't I don't know I I'm not an informant recruiter it
00:24:27 know I I'm not an informant recruiter it might not be relevant for special Branch at all it might have been relevant for the security service but I don't
00:24:35 know was it your understanding that this sort of information was wanted and
00:24:48 sort of information was wanted and recorded because it was wanted it wasn't actively sought but if it was reported upon by an officer it would have been forward in forwarded in the normal
00:24:59 way can we take that down please sorry if we if we could go to page 106 in the same document paragraph
00:25:10 336 it's the B right at the bottom of the
00:25:16 page I've been referred to an intelligence report attributable to a UCA which includes the comment that a new member of their target group was quote very attractive that is a very
00:25:29 quote very attractive that is a very subjective View it is not what we would encourage uos to report on but they would be permitted to include it the purpose of this reporting
00:25:43 include it the purpose of this reporting would have been merely to distinguish or identify them for possible future occasions this did not raise any
00:25:54 occasions this did not raise any concerns with me or any other manager to my knowledge with regards to the uca's attitudes towards individuals whom he was reporting on I knew he was a thoroughly profession Prof officer this kind of language was not surprising at
00:26:11 kind of language was not surprising at the time when the intelligence Community was largely stuffed by men it would not have rung alarm Bells Because by the standards of the day it was nothing unusual can you help us please by what you meant in those last two sentences
00:26:37 the use of the very short phrase very attractive is merely a comment from the officer I don't regard it as anything more than
00:26:38 more than that uh it was something
00:26:50 that perhaps as I've said there it may have enabled somebody to identify this person on a future occasion I saw no reason to take it out of the report at the time and in fact fact to be perfectly honest I don't think it would have even occurred to
00:27:03 have even occurred to me my question was more directed at what you say in the last two sentences of that
00:27:18 sentences of that paragraph what was the relevance of the intelligence Community being largely male at that time well presumably that we have a to have a lady there who was very attractive it's merely a comment would
00:27:31 attractive it's merely a comment would have been made at the time so somebody is remarking on a woman's sexual attractiveness just remarking on their attractiveness and that is something that would happen in the course of
00:27:42 that would happen in the course of events when officers were recording intelligence it's nothing unusual as I've said
00:27:50 I've said there so that people who were reading the report would know that the woman was attractive that's what he said
00:28:03 attractive that's what he said say for identification purposes that's very vague and subjective isn't it
00:28:17 very vague and subjective isn't it correct is the real reason is because in a largely male environment there was a sexual element to remarking upon the physical attractiveness of female targets I don't see that as a sexual um element at all it's merely a comment from the officer concerned and I would
00:28:32 from the officer concerned and I would put no more emphasis on it than that you talk about the standards of the day in connection with recording in an official document how attractive a person is can
00:28:49 document how attractive a person is can you help us with the point you're trying to make when you refer to the standards of the
00:28:50 of the day the standards of the day in the 1980s are totally different from those of today and we have a much more shall
00:29:05 of today and we have a much more shall we say male culture then if I can put it that way to put a comment in like this to me was
00:29:13 to me was um acceptable nothing more than that it probably wouldn't have rung any bells anywhere uh perhaps on reflection it might have been a good idea to take it
00:29:25 might have been a good idea to take it out but I didn't do that so can I take it that it would when you say nothing unusual perfectly normal for such
00:29:38 unusual perfectly normal for such remarks to be made I would have said so for those days yes and presumably not just on paper but when people were talking to one another in the office I don't think something like that would even come up in the office do you not recall anyone ever remarking upon
00:29:51 not recall anyone ever remarking upon whether female activists were attractive or
00:29:56 or otherwise no in this male environment no applying 1986 standards no are you sure about that I am or we would refer to an activist as normally by the names we knew them
00:30:09 knew them by could we take uh that down please and have up
00:30:10 have up 742
00:30:22 734 and we move move on to the main report please page
00:30:23 page three thank you 9th of January 198 7 if we could have um this is a report paragraph
00:30:44 paragraph 2 it's a report about a woman who's 5'6 has blonde curly hair and it records details about her if we could go to paragraph four
00:30:50 please then says subject recently spent Christmas in the New Year in the London area and for the most part stayed at the home of privacy privacy near Guilford she spent New Year's Eve in the company of privacy at a party hosted by laye in
00:31:06 of privacy at a party hosted by laye in Forest Hill it is extremely likely that privacy an attractive woman will maintain her popularity among leading Alf
00:31:18 Alf activists did that come with a A nudge and a
00:31:22 and a wink I don't understand what you mean by that was the purpose of recording that she
00:31:34 of recording that she was an attractive woman and insinuating that she was going to be popular for that reason um another example of a sexual Dimension to reporting no I don't regard it like that at all it's merely a description that the officer
00:31:47 merely a description that the officer has put in his his report there and I can't put any more emphasis on it than that and again the sort of thing that was
00:31:58 was quite normal for an officer to report
00:32:12 yes could we take that down now please in the uh office did you ever hear any
00:32:20 banter in respect of what anything I can't answer that question well you were there I wasn't what I'm driving at is can you help us with the sort of atmosphere was it jovial jokey or was it
00:32:36 jovial jokey or was it paced and Silent the office was a good atmosphere and would that include banter banter between ourselves probably yes did you ever hear any sexual
00:32:50 yes did you ever hear any sexual banter I can't recall anything there probably was to be perfectly honest within the office environment I don't know I can't recall anything sexual
00:33:02 anything sexual jokes I don't know I can't recall them is it likely 1980s I wouldn't said jokes no we were too busy for that
00:33:11 that inuendo might have been the discussion of the attractiveness or otherwise of female activists that would have just been
00:33:24 activists that would have just been minuted and forwarded on in the usual in the usual way I doubt there have been any discussion about that whatso ever are you sure as sure as it can
00:33:45 be can I move now to some of your specific officers officers under your command can we start with the officer we know as hn
00:33:58 82 uh 82 82 yeah wait a minute to find
00:34:10 it no um that
00:34:20 be sorry I can't find it for the moment I'll find it in a minute take your time 82
00:34:33 [Music]
00:34:46 right the inquiry has evidence that hn2 on two occasions indulged in sexual activity uh with a member of the public in his Undercover
00:35:10 identity did he ever say anything about that no did you ever get any inkling that h82 might have been involved in sexual activity
00:35:27 no justes your evidence yesterday that you think that if you'd asked a direct question the officer would have lied to you would apply to
00:35:38 you would apply to h82 quite
00:35:49 possibly does it say something about levels of trust and propriety within the SDS if a manager can't rely upon an officer to give an honest
00:36:06 answer I don't think that in the circumstances where I would have approached the officer like this he would have admitted that in the first instance to give an honest answer would have
00:36:16 have merely or may have brought his SDS career to an end I bet I have to I'm beg your pardon I've made quite a significant factual error which must be corrected it's
00:36:38 corrected it's hn12 not hn 82 could you check who hn12 is same questions do your answers uh change at
00:36:40 change at all wait a
00:36:52 minute oh
00:36:54 oh right this officer I can't comment upon because I never had any supervision over him
00:37:12 hn12 no let's move now to hn1 Mike
00:37:15 hn1 Mike chitty did he ever say anything to you about any form of sexual activity with one or more activists
00:37:28 one or more activists no did anyone else say anything on that subject about him about him yes not to my
00:37:41 him about him yes not to my knowledge did you have any inkling that he might be involved sexually with anyone in his undercover identity no as I've said before in my evidence chitty was coming to the end of his SDS career when I joined SDS he
00:37:53 his SDS career when I joined SDS he was a rather uncommunicative person
00:38:06 was a rather uncommunicative person anyway quite difficult to talk to and he would not have told me anything about what was going on in respect of his undercover life did you ever hear anything whether in connection to Mike chitty or otherwise about an orgy in a
00:38:34 tent in preparing my statement I remember reading reading something about that I think but in terms of my duties at the time
00:38:39 time no can we bring up your witness statement
00:38:41 statement 74945 page
00:38:45 [Music]
00:38:53 133 paragraph 424 I was aware that following the end of his deployment Mike chitty continued to spend time in his cover identity with some of those with whom he had Associated during his deployment some years later I heard a rumor to that
00:39:12 years later I heard a rumor to that effect but I did not know anything more than that until reading my rule n request could you expand upon that please and explain to us uh what it was that you heard
00:39:36 the only thing I heard was that Mike chitty was still associating with people in his cover identity after he had finished his Tour of Duty on SDs did you hear
00:39:49 hear anything about the circumstances and in particular whether it involved him keeping in touch with a woman no I didn't have any details and this was
00:39:56 this was merely a rumor if you like something that I heard I can't remember where I can't remember when but I didn't get any more information than
00:40:09 more information than that did there come a point in time when you learned that Mike jitty had been involved in a sexual relationship with a woman called
00:40:23 Lizzy I can't specifically recall the name but I think I would have I would have come across it preparing my statement a year ago yes did you know before you became the chief superintendent I beg your pardon a superintendent on ES
00:40:38 Squad I can't answer that question I don't
00:40:40 don't know can we move now to Bob Lambert did detective Chief Inspector waight ever say anything to
00:40:55 waight ever say anything to you about Lambert having got a girl into trouble
00:41:02 trouble no or possibly having done so
00:41:04 so no or anything else touching the pregnancy possible or
00:41:15 touching the pregnancy possible or otherwise of a member of the public by him I had nothing from Tony white on that and in fact when I did hear about
00:41:27 that and in fact when I did hear about it I was absolutely horrified when did you first hear about it long after I left SDS when did you first know that he had in fact fathered a
00:41:38 in fact fathered a child after I left SDS as I say I can't tell you exactly when did di Barber say anything to you at
00:41:44 at all not a
00:41:47 all not a thing anybody else
00:41:56 no we know that Bob Lambert had in fact fathered a child and that he was in contact with that child whilst you were managing him and
00:42:07 and Jackie tbs's mother does it follow from your evidence that he was left to manage the situation entirely on his
00:42:25 the situation entirely on his own he did because he didn't communicate anything of this to me I had as I've said absolutely no idea and if you had had an idea what would you have done I'd have probably removed him from SDS straight
00:42:36 removed him from SDS straight away and what would you have done in terms of the question of should Jackie be told who Bob Lambert really
00:42:57 was that would be a question that would have to be dealt with I would presume at a higher level because it might risk compromising the whole of the SDS operation so I can't answer the question which is a theoretical one anyway but there would have to be serious consideration given
00:43:16 consideration given to telling the lady concerned exactly who he was and the fact there was a child TBS
00:43:18 child TBS presumably reinforced the need to give that question anxious consideration yes but above your pay grade I would have said
00:43:41 so did you have any knowledge that Bob Lambert was sometimes seen with a child
00:43:51 no would you have seen Bob Lambert from time to time in his undercover identity in surveillance photographs I don't recall ever seeing him in a surveillance photograph or
00:44:05 photograph or reading reports from other sources which referred to what he was doing
00:44:12 undercover I do not have a recollection of reading any reports from other sources might that have happened it
00:44:25 might did you know that he was making repeated trips to dagger
00:44:32 them no was there any way in which the management of the SDS would pick up a pattern like
00:44:46 that very unlikely unless he was claiming expenses for traveling something like that which would show that sort of pattern the SDS officer he or she was given a lot of free reign
00:44:58 free reign and by the very nature of the job they were doing the how can I explain it the supervision strings if you like were
00:45:10 supervision strings if you like were lengthened considerably from what they would be in normal placing it was therefore very very difficult without putting a surveillance team on him for
00:45:22 putting a surveillance team on him for which I had no reason to do to to know exactly where he was going on a particular
00:45:31 day would it have been a good idea to keep an eye on expenses claims and things like that to look for patterns which might at least beg questions to be followed up well that begs the whole ten of the
00:45:48 up well that begs the whole ten of the question did I have any idea that he had fathered a child and the answer is no but in terms of the limitations on supervision of undercover police office officers and the risk that they
00:46:00 the risk that they might go off the rails in one way or
00:46:12 might go off the rails in one way or another wouldn't a system to keep an eye out on things like expenses claims to look for patterns have been a good idea it might have been but I'm not sure we'd have had the time to indulge in that type of indepth analysis um the sergeants in the office
00:46:25 analysis um the sergeants in the office dealt with the expens expenses a lot of the time I did not concern myself at my level with their expenses claims unless there was a problem did you have any
00:46:39 there was a problem did you have any knowledge that Bob Lambert was making regular Financial payments to Jackie
00:46:51 no if you had known that would you have pursued it
00:46:58 yes are you able to sisters at all whether expenses claims were made by
00:47:12 whether expenses claims were made by Lambert to pay maintenance to Jackie for TBS I cannot answer that and the reason being that most of the expenses claims in those days were paid to the officers
00:47:26 in those days were paid to the officers in cash they would bring in receipts for their rent other receipts for expenses and they were pay laid out in cash was there ever any talk by Bob Lambert of a child being adopted not that I can recall
00:47:43 adopted not that I can recall no I'm going to move from Jackie and TBS to a woman we're calling RLC it was Mr Lambert's evidence that he did get involved in sexual activity with RLC
00:48:03 did Bob Lambert ever say anything to you about that no was there ever any inuendo banter any other cause to to think that there was a suggestion that he might
00:48:17 there was a suggestion that he might have been doing so no with either RLC or any other woman
00:48:25 no going to move now to the woman uh who is not anonymous Belinda
00:48:34 Harvey she first met Bob Lambert in April
00:48:43 1987 did Bob Lambert say anything to you about meeting her no we know that he spent a lot of time
00:48:56 no we know that he spent a lot of time at an address in Forest Gate 86 marjerie Park
00:48:57 Park Road where Belinda Harvey was living did he tell you he was staying
00:49:08 living did he tell you he was staying there no did you ever ask him where he was staying no why not he had a registered address which
00:49:23 not he had a registered address which was provided for him and paid for by the Metropolitan Police that is the only address as far as I concern I was concerned that he had presumably it was known that sometimes officers would need to spend the night somewhere else yes that's
00:49:37 the night somewhere else yes that's accepted and and did you as a manager keep tabs on that no wouldn't it have been a good idea it might have been I'm not sure what it would have
00:49:51 what it would have achieved are we back to the officer might well have lied to you yes
00:50:04 did he tell you that he was going to concerts to see bands like REM Peter Gabriel and squeeze I have no memory of that at all might he have done so he might have done but I don't know did he tell you who he
00:50:18 but I don't know did he tell you who he was going with unlikely but he may well have done I I can't answer those questions because I have no memory of them did you ever see Lambert in his
00:50:31 them did you ever see Lambert in his Undercover ident itty personally perhaps if you are acting as a cover officer yes when he was arrested we talked about the hor Horman Crawley earlier I'm thinking more generally
00:50:47 no uh when you saw him at um horam and Crawley Crawley hunt was he in the company of any
00:50:59 women I don't recall that because he was stepping out the back of a police fan at the time with some other um some other of his um comrades did you not see him at any other point of time in the day
00:51:15 day no no he was taken there he was kept as I explained yesterday for I think two hours and then he was released and once he was released as far as I was concerned my job of covering him was complete
00:51:29 we saw yesterday that there was surveillance in place in August 1987 when the IID plot was being monitored
00:51:36 monitored closely did you see can you recall whether you gleaned as a result of that any inkling of who Lambert was mixing
00:51:47 any inkling of who Lambert was mixing with I didn't see the surveillance logs I don't recall seeing photographs at
00:51:54 all if you had seen a photograph which tended to suggest that Lambert was very close to a woman is that something that you would have paid any attention to or
00:52:07 to or not if I'd seen a photograph of Bob Lambert with a woman next to him it would not necessarily have given me any concern if you'd seen a photograph which suggested an intimate
00:52:25 connection if I may have pursued the matter but I didn't see any
00:52:44 photographs did detective Sergeant couch say anything to you about the search that he
00:52:49 that he conducted of Lambert's accommodation in September
00:52:57 1987 not that that I can recall it's Mr Lambert's evidence is that there was a photograph in his room possibly on his bedside table of of him with Belinda Harvey can you recall whether anyone
00:53:17 Harvey can you recall whether anyone said anything to you about that to the best of my knowledge nobody told me anything about
00:53:34 that we've had evidence from Belinda Harvey that Mr Lambert moved in to live with her for a period in a flat in a tower Block in Hackney did he tell you that
00:53:43 no could we have up please 34980
00:54:01 page
00:54:07 10 uh at the bottom
00:54:19 please one evening I C called over there after work as I often did this is mid November 1988 and by this stage the evidence is that Belinda Harvey had moved out of the flat only this time I found Greta shaking she looked absolutely terrified the Flat's being
00:54:34 absolutely terrified the Flat's being raided she announced dramatically her eyes wide with horror raided by Who special Branch I was so stunned that I
00:54:46 special Branch I was so stunned that I felt my legs fall beneath me she lit a roll up cigarette I noticed that her hands were still trembling as she held up her lighter I felt equally terrified I didn't know much but I knew that special Branch didn't call for a social
00:55:02 special Branch didn't call for a social visit they were anti-terrorist police my job flashed through my mind and I wondered what my manager would say if he knew it wouldn't exactly be good for my promotion prospects but why what did
00:55:17 promotion prospects but why what did they want I asked desperate to know they said that they were looking for Bob but didn't didn't they say why did they say anything else no but they looked look through some of your stuff in
00:55:30 through some of your stuff in fact one of them picked up a pair of your shoes and asked who they belong to I suddenly felt desperately scared and what did you say they asked if they were mine but I said no those belong to
00:55:43 mine but I said no those belong to Belinda you gave them my name I gasped
00:55:55 Belinda you gave them my name I gasped it's okay I didn't give your surname or anything but I was petrified what the hell had Bob been up to when I later relayed the news to him he seemed equally scared I'm going to have to disappear he said my breath caught inside my chest and I felt the room closing in on me I was utterly terrified
00:56:17 closing in on me I was utterly terrified terrified I'd never see Bob again if you could uh bear that in mind now please and if we could have up 737 217
00:56:33 page 11 [Music]
00:56:35 [Music] please paragraph 90 and this is uh the witness statement of Belinda hary what we were reading from a moment ago was a book deep
00:56:50 from a moment ago was a book deep deception I remember that the flat at Satan point was raided by the police possibly while both Bob and I were living there although I may have moved into sack Road by then I can't recall I went to Sean point from work and found that Bob was not there but Howard and
00:57:04 that Bob was not there but Howard and Natalie North were there I just remember that my shoes were by the door as if they'd been thrown there Natalie North and Howard told me that the police had picked up the shoes and asked whose shoes they were they told the police
00:57:16 shoes they were they told the police they are bindas I asked what else did they say about me and they told me that they said nothing else they did say that the police were looking for
00:57:27 the police were looking for Bob this of course was very late in Mr Lambert's deployment shortly before he withdrew all together was there given that he was
00:57:43 together was there given that he was pretending to be a man who is going on the run an arrangement for a police
00:57:54 arrangement for a police raid to make that exfiltration story more credible I have no information about that whatsoever it's the first I've ever seen of that I didn't know about it I
00:58:13 of that I didn't know about it I can't completely say there was or wasn't any Arrangement because I simply don't know it looks as if that was the anti-terrorist Squad Squad rather than special Branch making doing the raid if the
00:58:27 raid if the raid was part and parcel of
00:58:28 of bolstering Lambert's cover presumably you would have known about it I would have hoped so and I have no knowledge of this whatsoever presumably you would
00:58:43 this whatsoever presumably you would have had to be Parton Parcel as the DCI at that time of instigating it the one query I have on this is the date is November is it 1988
00:58:59 date is November is it 1988 yes was I still on SDs you leave during the course of of November 1988 is our understanding right I don't know anything about this I'm sorry I can't help
00:59:08 you can we take that down
00:59:17 now on your evidence you knew nothing at all about Lambert's sexual activity with members of the public undercover no and yet whilst you are his
00:59:31 and yet whilst you are his manager we know that he is sexually deceiving Belinda Harvey we know he sexually deceives
00:59:46 sexually deceives RLC we know that he is in contact uh with
00:59:47 with Jackie uh keeping in touch with TBS and there is a question mark over exactly how long the SE ual relationship with Jackie went
01:00:04 with Jackie went on that is a lot of sexual activity on your watch isn't it
01:00:16 yes do you find it surprising that happened without your knowledge I'm not surprised because it is very very
01:00:28 surprised because it is very very difficult to keep if effective control over an SDS officer and they are recruited for their their intelligence
01:00:43 recruited for their their intelligence their their work their ability to work unsupervised now in terms of what Bob was apparently up to as I've said before had I challenged
01:00:55 to as I've said before had I challenged him on it he would almost certainly have denied everything to me because had he admitted it that would have been the end of his SDS career anyway and I was genuinely horrified when I found out that he had actually fathered a
01:01:14 actually fathered a child so is it a fair summation of your evidence on this topic that you did nothing to prevent uos under your command entering into and pursuing sexual relationships with members of the
01:01:28 sexual relationships with members of the public because you thought it was futile to try to do so no I disagree with what you said there you started off by saying words to the effect that um I did
01:01:42 words to the effect that um I did nothing to prevent it there obviously would have been at the recruitment process
01:01:48 process um basically telling them that they were not to indulge in sexual relationships uh how and when that would have occurred I can't remember now but the point I'm making is that to have
01:01:59 the point I'm making is that to have challenged the officer when he is an officer in the field like that would have not have achieved anything because it would simply be
01:02:11 it would simply be denied subject to the evidence you've just given about uh a warning at the start at the recruitment stage did you do anything
01:02:31 recruitment stage did you do anything else to prevent uos under your command entering into sexual relation ations with members of the public in their undercover identities [Music]
01:02:36 no can I move to hn 87
01:02:49 please did hn 87 discuss with you spending time in squats I'm sorry I'm confused at the
01:03:01 squats I'm sorry I'm confused at the moment hn 887 yes yes no I have that yeah
01:03:07 yeah um did he tell you that he was spending time in the course of his duties in squats he may have done I can't recall uh did he describe to you the conditions within
01:03:17 within squats not particularly they're very different sometimes aren't they to police officers normal ways of living they are but that's part of the
01:03:29 living they are but that's part of the acceptance of being an SDS officer you have a cover flat which will probably be not the type of accommodation you're used
01:03:39 used to did he
01:03:47 to did he discuss life in a squat with you I have no recollection of him doing that specifically no did he ever speak with you about the practice of sharing beds Within squats no
01:04:02 no including sharing beds with female squatters
01:04:04 squatters no did he speak of any form of sexual activity with any of them not to me he didn't did anybody else I don't know
01:04:19 didn't did anybody else I don't know mention did anybody else me even ingest no
01:04:29 coming back to Bob Lambert do you still think he deserves his Commendation now you know what you do about how he actually behaved
01:04:49 undercover his Commendation was based on his work as we would have said in the field and for his penetration of an extremely disrupted extremist
01:05:06 group that was awarded to him at the time when if I'm right none of this was known
01:05:11 anyway if you want me to give you an honest answer which I'm sure you do I would still give him the Commendation for his work there I can separate those two
01:05:21 two aspects you've used the verb separate
01:05:32 but by holding the view that he still deserves a commendation are you not diminishing the importance and the gravity of Mr Lambert's
01:05:44 Lambert's misconduct no I'm separating them I'm separating the work he did with his no doubt ill judgment in terms of his sexual activity
01:06:03 is is it that you still don't think it's all that important I do think it's
01:06:11 important can I put to you an apology that was made on behalf of the commissioner at the start of TR two it's about managerial failings I'm going to ask you to what extent you agree with it the MPS
01:06:23 extent you agree with it the MPS recognizes the seriousness of these fa ings much of the evidence of misconduct and all the SDS as manager evidence will be considered in TR 2 Phase 2 and in due
01:06:41 be considered in TR 2 Phase 2 and in due course in module 2B hearings nonetheless the MPS can say at this stage that the SDS should have been the subject of robust oversight and intervention by senior managers so that professional standards and conduct were reviewed and
01:07:01 standards and conduct were reviewed and maintained throughout its duration poor standards and misconduct should have been
01:07:02 been identified and dealt with swiftly before they became embedded into the culture of the unit uos whose conduct fell below
01:07:14 the unit uos whose conduct fell below acceptable standards should have been identified removed from the field and disciplined where necessary now on that last note we're going to come in a little while to Mr Scott where where precisely that
01:07:31 Scott where where precisely that happened um but putting Mr Scutt for one side and focusing on the sexual misconduct management of offices within the
01:07:48 the SDS do you agree with the criticism that the commissioner has made and the apology I think the apology is right what I would say firstly hindsight is a wonderful medium
01:07:56 medium we are applying as I've said before perhaps the standards of today to what occurred in the 1980s the second point I would say is that the SDS operation was unique
01:08:13 say is that the SDS operation was unique and it brought with it unique challenges and unique problems one of those
01:08:24 and unique problems one of those problems was the ability for middle and Senior Management to supervise their officers and there was necessarily a huge amount of discretion given to the officers when they were out in the
01:08:39 in the field to bring in robust as you say um measures to supervise them far more closely may have been possible that would have needed detailed planning it
01:08:51 would have needed detailed planning it may also have disrupted in some way the whole focus of an SDS operation so so whilst I accept the apology is correct I cannot accept
01:09:05 apology is correct I cannot accept totally the commissioner's words about the failure of SDS management because quite frankly we did the best we could at the
01:09:15 at the time would it be fair to extract from that answer amongst other things the importance that was attached to the ends that the SDS was trying to
01:09:33 achieve the SDS was formed as you know in
01:09:38 in 19 68 68 thank you it had gone from my mind and it was formed basically to counter public order problems and to
01:09:49 counter public order problems and to provide the commissioner with useful and timely intelligence to save on policing costs etc
01:09:55 costs etc etc That Remains the remained the SS's reason for being I'm sorry I've lost control of the question now what was your question it was about how how important the ends were because you you were
01:10:11 the ends were because you you were saying that if if more robust controls had been brought in it might have distracted from the SS's Aim so what I'm inviting you to develop is just how
01:10:25 inviting you to develop is just how important the SDS and its senior manager ERS saw those aims those aims were Paramount but again we come back to something we discussed yesterday about
01:10:36 something we discussed yesterday about where do you draw a line and which is a very very difficult line to draw um as you know when I left I made certain recommendations to try and enhance and refine the SDS operation I
01:10:51 enhance and refine the SDS operation I think those were taken up whether that has affected the the acquisition of the product I don't know I've had no contact about
01:11:10 don't know I've had no contact about that whatsoever but it is a chicken and egg situation if you like that the more the more control you try and exercise over officers doing a job like this the less chance they may have to acquire the exceptional intelligence
01:11:22 acquire the exceptional intelligence that was acquired on a few occasions does that make sense I don't I don't know if I've made much sense to there but thank you I'm going to move to
01:11:33 but thank you I'm going to move to another topic now which is visits by senior officers we touched on this a little yesterday going to show you two documents first first of all 728
01:11:55 976 page nine please this is from the annual report for 1987 and uh if we could have uh now you've seen the title page page 14 paragraph
01:12:15 13 paragraph 13 records a visit during 1987 of the assistant commissioner Special Operations Mr Del and the deputy assistant commissioner special Branch Mr CW Shore on the 19th of February it
01:12:28 CW Shore on the 19th of February it stated that the meeting took place at a
01:12:39 stated that the meeting took place at a West London safe flat was conducted in a constructive and friendly Manner and a useful exchange of views took place concerning all aspects of the SDS operation this visit was viewed by all officers as a
01:12:51 officers as a success um is that a fair summary would seem to be I think that was slightly before my time but yes it would seem and if we go to 730
01:13:12 311 I think February by the way I think February 87 was in your time wasn't it you were di by that okay sorry and 730 311 page 13 please
01:13:29 minute one the list of SDS field officers at 1B has been compiled for the information of acso for his visit to SDS on Thursday the 3rd of March 1988 I have also
01:13:41 the 3rd of March 1988 I have also attached a note of the details of command and support Personnel the present Arrangement is for acso and
01:13:54 present Arrangement is for acso and yourself to be met by DCI Docker at back hall at 12:00 noon and then conveyed by SDS
01:13:55 SDS to the West London flat aco's diary has been noted accordingly a full turnout of personnel is expected I will be present
01:14:08 personnel is expected I will be present now when we spoke about these yesterday the emphasis was on um deceased children's identities can I can I this time develop that and ask you to what extent were the senior
01:14:22 extent were the senior officers talking about and being appraised of the s DS's
01:14:31 Targets in this particular case I do remember this I remember the assistant commissioner who came out and as it says
01:14:42 commissioner who came out and as it says on the minute I had to supply him with a briefing um of the SDS officers and the fields within which they were
01:14:57 engaged when he came out he'd obviously done his homework and he spoke to each officer in turn and he asked them relevant questions about their groupings that type of
01:15:02 thing was any inquiry made about
01:15:07 training
01:15:15 no you say that with some certainty could you explain why you're so certain about that you're talking about making an inquiry an inquiry from an assistant commissioner about training yes no no so no interest in whether or not there was
01:15:37 no interest in whether or not there was training and if so how effective it was not as far as I was concerned the the purpose of this visit from it was Mr Hugh anisley um was to visit the officers um talk to them um see what they're doing and in many respects satisfy himself that the
01:15:52 many respects satisfy himself that the SD op SDS operation was proceeding in a way that he would have wished to so satisfy himself wouldn't he have asked to ask have to ask questions he did ask questions but the
01:16:03 questions he did ask questions but the questions he asked from my memory were relevant to the officers groupings and their work within those
01:16:14 their work within those groupings can you recall anything about in what depth that was explored probably two or three questions for each officer I'd have thought anything or any curiosity about
01:16:30 thought anything or any curiosity about how undercover officers interacted with the
01:16:48 courts not that I can remember no anything about participation in crime and the dilemas that that might pose nope nothing how inquisitive was Mr annesley he was briefed the idea behind this is to make sure that whoever the senior officer is
01:17:03 sure that whoever the senior officer is not only is is on side if you like with the SDS but they have a knowledge of what the operation is about we're not asking for in-depth knowledge but a
01:17:15 asking for in-depth knowledge but a knowledge because I think I'm right the the person who writes the home office for continuation of the operation is the assistant
01:17:32 commissioner would it be a fair description to call it a familiarization visit maybe yes could we take that document down now please and have
01:17:43 74945 you've told us a little about um the assistant commissioner's purpose in the visit I now want to look uh at the
01:17:55 the visit I now want to look uh at the other side of the coin and what the SDS got from it at at page 18 of your witness statement paragraph 57 you addressed that the purpose of these visits was to make sure the uos knew their work was valued and to boost
01:18:18 knew their work was valued and to boost morale visits like this also gave uos an opportunity to speak to senior managers the visits would apprise the senior commander of what was going on this was an insurance policy so that they could not not say they did not know about it it also made sure that they
01:18:33 about it it also made sure that they understood the nature of the uco's work and their
01:18:35 and their output can you help us please by what you meant by an insurance policy it's probably a bad choice of phrase on my
01:18:52 probably a bad choice of phrase on my part the idea behind it is that a they have a knowledge of what is going on there um and B they would not be able to turn around at a later date and say they didn't know anything about the
01:19:08 operation and so an insurance policy for the
01:19:12 the SDS you could look at it like that I suppose but it was really
01:19:23 suppose but it was really to to also boost if you like the morale of the SDS officers in that they knew that the senior officers of the Metropolitan Police valued their work is the context that you know that
01:19:37 work is the context that you know that your unit is doing something which if it is
01:19:38 is uncovered is going to be the subject of considerable comment from the media from the home office and so
01:19:52 the home office and so forth that is a consideration yes I'm going to be vulgar now the would hit the fan exactly the phrase that went through my mind you wanted to know that your senior
01:20:09 know that your senior managers knew about what you were doing so that if the hit the fan you are not going to be left hung out to
01:20:20 you are not going to be left hung out to dry part of it and as I've said the rest of it is for them to be apprised of exactly what the SDS were doing and the areas they were working in and the benefit this accured in terms of policing costs the saving of policing
01:20:36 policing costs the saving of policing costs to the Metropolitan Police indeed and on that question can you help us with the feedback you got from senior officers who
01:20:48 officers who visited marks out of 10 for the SDS where we you on the scale the only one I can remember was this because I did have a letter from
01:21:01 this because I did have a letter from the assistant commissioner afterwards um basically saying thank you a very nice day he enjoyed it and etc etc so in terms of marks out of 10 I don't know eight out of 10 nine out of 10 something like that but I think he was quite well
01:21:15 like that but I think he was quite well impressed by the caliber of the officers and the information they gave him so
01:21:28 and the information they gave him so senior officers knew in Broad terms what the unit was doing that it existed how it was going about it work at a high level of generality and we're fully supportive
01:21:34 yes so I appreciate this is slightly early but I'm about to move to a completely different topic and we are in no danger
01:21:43 no danger TimeWise in which case we'll have our qu now break
01:21:44 now break now all
01:21:53 right
01:40:22 e e
01:41:22 thank you sir uh Mr doctor just to pick up before we move on to uh the question of senior
01:41:23 of senior officers visits you described um the satisfaction of the senior officers with the caliber of your undercover offices however you've told us earlier
01:41:38 offices however you've told us earlier this morning that you questioned whether they would answer your inquiries honestly if you'd asked about sexual activity how do you square the assertion
01:41:51 activity how do you square the assertion of their High Caliber with your very low opinion of their
01:42:00 honesty I'm not I'm not sure I understand that question but I think you've got to separate the job
01:42:12 think you've got to separate the job they do in terms of the product they're getting with the other aspects of their of their work on SDs which have led some of them to to engage in activities which they
01:42:28 to to engage in activities which they know we would not approve of and would definitely um or would probably end up in their removal from the
01:42:37 the SDS if there is an issue with your perception of their probity and their honesty that should have been tackled shouldn't
01:42:55 it again we're looking at hindsight here I had no information at the time about any sexual activity by any officer and perhaps we should have addressed it more but at the time it simply wasn't
01:43:15 raised I asked you some questions about whether you knew where Bob Lambert might be and in particular whether you knew he was at Satan Point your offices were required to call in by telephone every day weren't they correct twice a day
01:43:28 day weren't they correct twice a day twice a day and one of the purposes of that was to ensure their safety yes and presumably knowing where they were and where they were going to spend the night
01:43:48 where they were going to spend the night was an important piece of information if you were going to ensure they were safe or react if they were not that wasn't required from them all that was required was they phone in the office if they had a problem and they could enunciate over a telephone bearing in mind they would be
01:44:02 telephone bearing in mind they would be using public telephone call boxes there were no mobile phones in otherwise it was just to confirm to us when that they were still alive and still working there
01:44:13 were still alive and still working there were occasions when officers would say I cannot phone in later on because I'm doing a demonstration or something like that then they would tell us was a a requirement for them to tell you where
01:44:25 requirement for them to tell you where they were no or where they were going to spend the night no wouldn't that have been a good idea might have been but it would have loaded us up with an awful lot of administrative
01:44:41 lot of administrative um stuff for no real purpose I couldn't see the benefit of it if we'd insisted on them telling us where are you going to spend the night and I suspect the
01:44:53 to spend the night and I suspect the reaction would be well why do you need need to know that what's the point in asking for this information we didn't ask for it we just needed to know that they were still operating as SDS
01:45:06 they were still operating as SDS officers and they were safe safety would have been the first answer to that question wouldn't it
01:45:10 yes could I call up please 73716
01:45:33 page four this is a record of uh a meeting you had with officers from operation sparkler if we follow the numbering uh of the redactions sorry hn 109 uh discussion with operation
01:45:49 109 uh discussion with operation sparkler if we go down at the page to number
01:45:50 number 71 there's a paragraph there hn 109 stated that they were unaware of any relationships between activists and
01:46:05 relationships between activists and uos however there had been jokes made about high standards of Intelligence being gained from horizontal politics does that jog your memory do you recall such jokes no not at all the
01:46:27 you recall such jokes no not at all the other standing joke was that Helen steel was not very attractive do you recall what is described as a standing joke no not at all how is it if 109 recalls there
01:46:40 all how is it if 109 recalls there being jokes of a sexual with sexual innuendo and conversations about how attractive female activists were or were not that you don't recall them
01:46:57 you don't recall them I don't know it's 37 years ago I I do not have perfect recall and I do not remember this would you accept then if
01:47:08 remember this would you accept then if your recall is not perfect that there is not no reason not to believe hn 109 about this if hn 109 has said that knowing the officer as I do then I would accept
01:47:15 accept that um would you accept that for Helen steel now to have to read
01:47:29 to read that is something particularly hurtful it probably would be for the lady yes thank you could we take that down now
01:47:37 now please are you a Freemason no were you in the time that you were serving in the SDS I have never been a
01:47:51 SDS I have never been a Freemason want to move now to the question of Stefan Scot
01:47:55 uh could we have up 7 748
01:48:14 500 this is um the aqr for Stefan Scott uh and the other comment box at the bottom appears to have been completed by you and dated the 23rd of April 198
01:48:27 198 87 um I'll give you a moment to refresh your
01:48:43 [Music] memory a glowing report isn't it it is work of the very very highest uh quality
01:49:03 was that your opinion of Scott in 1987 at that time yes and if we could zoom
01:49:07 zoom back on the whole uh document uh we can see under the reliability part of the grid can always be relied upon to produce excellent work
01:49:39 be relied upon to produce excellent work with a bare minimum of super supervision so no concerns at that time about the need to supervise Stephan Scout no and if we could go now to 22317 please it's tab
01:49:53 b26 this is a security service
01:49:55 service um note for file about debriefing Mr Scout on the 7th of July
01:50:05 July [Music]
01:50:10 [Music] 1987 I'll give you a moment to just refresh your memory about
01:50:24 that [Music]
01:51:24 for for [Music]
01:52:03 it's fair to say isn't it the security service appear to have been very impressed with Mr Scott as well certainly um could we look at paragraph three please and in particular the first uh half of
01:52:14 uh half of that at 1315 there was a break for a sandwich lunch laid on by F4 hn 95 hell forth on how boring were the people in the swp the women were ugly and there
01:52:27 the swp the women were ugly and there were few individuals who were inclined to make jokes or tell funny stories they spent all their time thinking along
01:52:43 spent all their time thinking along narrow ideological lines one could not watch football for example because it was considered ideologically unsound if we stop there is that an accurate record of the conversation over lunch
01:52:54 conversation over lunch I have no recollection of the conversation whatsoever do you have any reason to doubt the accuracy of the security service in recording these details
01:53:06 details no would appear then that um in your presence one of your officers Stefan Scott uh was talking about the swp in
01:53:21 Scott uh was talking about the swp in these terms including saying that the women were ugly apparently so would I be right to assume from your
01:53:33 so would I be right to assume from your earlier evidence that that is something an observation that would pass without any remark from you yeah I I don't remember it but yes it would do it would have done
01:53:46 it would do it would have done then and the dismissive attitude towards activists and the particularly dismissive attitudes towards women are they represent pres ative of the culture within the SDS
01:53:59 within the SDS no how can you say that in the light of the evidence we've looked at earlier today well because it's only occurred on a few
01:54:09 occasions could we take that down now
01:54:17 [Music] please back to Mr
01:54:28 please back to Mr Scott this point in time the summer of 1987 you are very happy with him the security service are praising
01:54:32 him is he proud of his
01:54:39 achievements he was a very uncommunicative officer did you get the impression that
01:54:56 officer did you get the impression that he liked being an SDS undercover officer oh yes and that it gave him a sense of identity I don't know if that is the correct term for him but he certainly I think for a lot of his career in special Branch had wanted to be an SDS
01:55:11 Branch had wanted to be an SDS officer so very important to him I think so yes important to his
01:55:22 self-esteem maybe but then things sour don't they yes if we go to 740
01:55:37 925 this is the 1988 uh aqr could we look at the other comment section at the bottom not signed by you this time but signed by hm 109 because you've been presumably you've
01:55:54 because you've been presumably you've been promoted in the interim correct DC with whom I have not previously worked is a capable officer with a strong competitive character when tasked the officer has provided well presented and researched product in the six months I have worked with him however I have
01:56:05 have worked with him however I have gained the impression that he's been
01:56:17 gained the impression that he's been operating on a minimum requirement level which I do not consider satisfies the extremely high standards of self motivation or self-discipline that his current posting requires the officer gives the impression of being and wishing to
01:56:31 impression of being and wishing to remain a very private individual and has exhibited a divisive side to his
01:56:40 character I understand from your witness statement that those are observations with which you wholeheartedly agreed at
01:56:55 with which you wholeheartedly agreed at the time is that fair it's fair yes can you help us with with what your own experience of Scott had been which caused you wholeheartedly to identify with those
01:57:08 remarks when I first went to SDS as you've seen from the annual appraisal I gave him he was a good hardworking and appeared a committed officer and he
01:57:20 officer and he produced quite a lot of good intelligence reports
01:57:28 however over the year under review here coming up to this
01:57:35 appraisal my opinion of him was he had started to become lazy he had achieved what he saw and
01:57:48 lazy he had achieved what he saw and this is only my opinion he had achieved what he saw was a level within the SDS with which he was happy and and having got to that level he would have assumed that he only had to produce a minimum amount of work
01:58:01 had to produce a minimum amount of work to maintain that level he was one if you like to Co in a phrase he was one of the top dogs on the
01:58:23 unit my di came to me and he said to me I have to do Stefan Scott's appraisal how do you want me to do it I said to him what do you mean he said I can give him a bland appraisal if
01:58:35 said I can give him a bland appraisal if that's what you want or I can do it as I see
01:58:40 see fit I said to him you do it as you see fit and I will deal with
01:58:52 it that's where this came from at that stage was there anything else other than declining
01:58:58 productivity yes on a number of occasions I had asked the officer for his home
01:59:07 his home address and for the registration de details of his vehicle so I could take the appropriate action in in safeguarding both of those on each
01:59:18 those on each occasion he had been very dismissive with me say that's not necessary where I live and I know I'm not allowed to
01:59:29 live and I know I'm not allowed to mention exactly where he lives but he lived in
01:59:30 lived in Norfolk um I'm perfectly safe out there there's no need to do that or there's no need to take any action in regard to my
01:59:43 car and until he actually left SDS I still had never got that information from him he was reluctant to provide it
01:59:53 anything else at that
02:00:03 stage I can't put a time scale on it
02:00:08 it but I do remember that I think my di
02:00:10 di Drew
02:00:12 Drew Scott's personal file on which at the beginning of his career when he joined the Metropolitan Police as he uniform
02:00:23 Police as he uniform constable in those days one was encouraged to write a short essay about one's life so [Music]
02:00:31 [Music] far this essay he'd written had included details of his career in the Army and what he'd been up to in the
02:00:43 Army and what he'd been up to in the Army and he'd made no secret of the fact on um diverse occasions of his work with the
02:00:57 the SAS and I think as he was a a leftenant according to him and I remember that from having worked with him on C Squad before having looked at
02:01:09 before having looked at this and again I think it was the Di's initiative which I approved we went to the Army and got his army record out and his army record was totally
02:01:24 out and his army record was totally different from the story he had been telling about himself if you want I can give you a few details of that what I would like to
02:01:40 that what I would like to know is of the assertions he' made about his military career had you personally heard him make any such claims orally
02:01:52 any such claims orally yes when I worked with him in the 1980s on the rightwing desk I was a sergeant then he was a DC part of
02:02:13 that what was it that caused hn 109 to be sufficiently suspicious to call the mod in and look at his military file I think you really ought to address that question to him but
02:02:27 that question to him but I I'm pretty sure that he he thought he was lazy he didn't trust him and and I could see this as well he had one motivation and that was money and you suspected him of being a
02:02:42 braget yes and possibly a Walter MTI
02:02:53 yes and possibly a Walter MTI definitely could we take down that document and have up 74944
02:03:14 please our understanding is that this is the pen picture from Mr Scott's file
02:03:16 file um it's really very difficult to read Are you able to help us one way or the other as to whether we are correct that this is his pen
02:03:28 this is his pen picture I can't
02:03:34 remember I'm going to give you the opportunity in due course over the luncheon adjournment to look at this I don't think it's fair to ask you to look at it now but our reading of that document is that it does not make
02:03:48 document is that it does not make particularly spectacular claims about his military career it talks about him being in the Royal Army Medical Corps in Germany skiing and so
02:03:59 Germany skiing and so forth and I'm going to ask you after lunch to clarify whether your concerns about his
02:04:09 about his claims came from what he' said as opposed to what he wrote but we will uh Park that for the moment coming back to his lack of
02:04:23 moment coming back to his lack of productivity did you you or hn 109 do anything about
02:04:35 that by this time I had some suspicion that he was not only being
02:04:46 not only being unproductive um but that quite frankly we didn't really know who he was at all and he'd been very very unforthcoming about his home life about anything else that um other than his
02:05:02 anything else that um other than his work I do have a memory of tasking him with producing two reports one from memory was the uh there was a dispute at the time with the
02:05:18 was a dispute at the time with the nurses and I wanted a report on the swp involvement involvement in that report the other one I can't remember
02:05:25 anyway I gave him a week to produce them and he produced nothing for me so I
02:05:39 and he produced nothing for me so I asked him once more he never did produce those reports in spite of the fact that what I'd given him was a lawful order did you ever confront him
02:05:43 him with his Disobedience of your lawful order or his productivity generally in Broad terms I suspect I must have done I can't exactly remember remember what I said to him but I would
02:06:04 remember what I said to him but I would have said something like you know you've got one more week to get this to me or or what or I'll have to um look further I don't know how I'd have phrased it to him but he did not comply with what I told him to do and how far
02:06:19 with what I told him to do and how far did you press his failure to provide his address to you I must have asked him on several occasions and he every time um pushed it to one side did he give you an ultimatum sorry did you give him an
02:06:32 ultimatum sorry did you give him an ultimatum I don't remember doing it specifically like
02:06:38 that was there anything
02:06:50 else well there was a lot that developed later on which I wasn't privy to but I'm not going to go into time um what I'm driving at is did you you've mentioned that you thought he was very interested in money yes he was were there any
02:07:02 in money yes he was were there any concerns at that time about his expenses claims not specifically no but I do remember one occasion at a
02:07:16 but I do remember one occasion at a meeting on the Monday when he said to me I'm sorry I had to go into s swp headquarters on Saturday and Sund Sunday knowing full well that those were his rest
02:07:28 rest days and I suppose he expected me to say that's all right just charge it to the overtime whereas of course what I said to him was well I'm sorry but that's your problem I I didn't authorize it um
02:07:40 your problem I I didn't authorize it um you're not going to get paid for it and he just Shrugged his shoulders walked
02:07:49 off can you help us uh with whether you were involved in confronting Stefan Scott with his unfavorable aqr yes could you describe what
02:08:08 aqr yes could you describe what happened from memory I contacted him and I told him to meet me at our West London
02:08:16 premises which he did I think the DI was with me at the same time I went through
02:08:29 time I went through the issues I've just been through with you and I told him that with his appraisal I had there I considered that I couldn't trust him anymore that the trust had broken down
02:08:41 anymore that the trust had broken down between us and in consequence of that I was going to recommend his removal from STDs what was his reaction
02:08:54 STDs what was his reaction I think he blamed the DI first off without saying anything to
02:09:02 me I don't think he reacted particularly at the time he just took the OPA the appraisal and left the flat was there anything about his demeanor that gave
02:09:21 gave away how he was feeling at that time not that I noticed no could we take this down now please and have up 7
02:09:37 4927 this is a memorandum dated the 20th of April
02:09:44 of April 1988 so the day after the aqr it's very soon in time afterwards signed by you could we um have a look please first of all at paragraph
02:09:59 two having been in post for over 2 years he was extremely good he he has extremely good access to the party hierarchy and to its headquarters at empson Street E3 however his work return is not in my opinion what can be
02:10:10 is not in my opinion what can be expected from an experienced SDS officer and it is now perfectly clear that he is submitting what he considers to be a bare minimum return which over the last 6 months has consistently
02:10:23 6 months has consistently consisted mostly of lists of names and short reports on individuals only two reports are of Merit during this time and these were submitted only when I specifically tasked him with producing the information would appear from those
02:10:38 the information would appear from those last two lines that he had complied with at least some requests for specific information is that right probably but I don't think those refer to the two I referred to earlier uh and there is a
02:10:49 referred to earlier uh and there is a similarity between the wording of this paragraph and the a QR and is that because at this stage you and hm 109 are completely in lock step in your views about stepan Scott we are
02:11:04 about stepan Scott we are um could we have paragraph three
02:11:17 please this officer essentially a very private and very intelligent individual who constantly seeks to manipulate persons and situations to his own advantage while some of these qualities may be ideal for an SDS officer to have Scott does not draw a distinction in this respect between his work his
02:11:32 this respect between his work his colleagues and his supervisory officers as such to have drawn the officer's attention to his poor work record which should not in any case be necessary on a squad which by its very nature demands high self-motivation with minimum
02:11:47 high self-motivation with minimum supervision would only have temporarily cured the problem and I have no doubt that Scott Scott would would soon have returned to his former ways first of all seeks to manipulate persons and
02:12:02 seeks to manipulate persons and situations to his own Advantage is there anything over and above what you've already told us and having regard to the need not to divulge any state Secrets or breach any anonymity ORD anything else
02:12:14 breach any anonymity ORD anything else you want to add there uh to substantiate
02:12:29 you want to add there uh to substantiate the proposition that he was manipulative having known him as a young DC and now on this squad and having seen how he tries to control others um I think manipulate is probably a very good choice of word um he will exploit anything where he thinks he can gain an
02:12:46 anything where he thinks he can gain an advantage but if you knew that from your your time before the SDS why are you writing such a glowing report about him in 19 19
02:12:57 in 19 19 87 my thoughts on him from the early 80s were that he could be like that I did not recruit him he was recruited before I got there and when I got there he was producing good
02:13:10 producing good work so I thought perhaps he may have mended his ways uh going towards the bottom of uh the paragraph it says to have drawn the
02:13:26 the paragraph it says to have drawn the officer's attention to his work r record would only have temporarily cured the problem it appears from the near contemporary document the natural inference from that is that you had not um confronted
02:13:42 um confronted him with his poor productivity is that fair I don't know I can't remember specifically saying that to him but I must have said something I wouldn't have just served an a appraisal on him with
02:13:55 just served an a appraisal on him with those comments on it without speaking to him
02:13:57 him beforehand paragraph four
02:14:11 please on Tuesday the 19th of April 1988 at 1:10 p.m. at our West London op I was present when di 109 served Scott with his aqr in view of the comments in the report with which I totally concur I told Scott that I would be recommending his immediate withdrawal from SDS duties
02:14:27 his immediate withdrawal from SDS duties Scott then said to me is there any other reason behind this and I reiterated the reason for my recommendation to withdraw him the officer then went to the toilet made a brief telephone call and came back into the room he pointed at dim 109
02:14:47 back into the room he pointed at dim 109 and said you've achieved your purpose hn 109 well done super I then rebuked him for the remark and he left the premises is is that an accurate record of what happened as accurate as it can be yes it's it's basically my my memory
02:15:08 be yes it's it's basically my my memory of it yeah and had you discussed with hn 109 that you were going to tell him at this meeting that he was going to be removed from the unit
02:15:21 yes when you say removed from the unit that would have been my recommendation to the chief superintendent thank you he is as you've pointed out
02:15:36 he is as you've pointed out well-placed there is always the question of the operational security of the SDS to take into account isn't there if you're going to inflict some penalty on an
02:15:48 some penalty on an officer you're nodding for that for the transcript yes a concern that he might take Umbridge and do something that might compromise the SDS operation quite possibly what was it about this particular dilemma for the SDS as opposed to others at we've heard
02:16:04 opposed to others at we've heard evidence about that drove you to the conclusion that Scott had to go I couldn't trust him it's as simple
02:16:18 go I couldn't trust him it's as simple as that and again drawing the comparison between the fact that you didn't trust your officers to tell you the truth about sexual relationships what is it about the lack of trust here that is
02:16:29 different his lack of work his
02:16:31 work his aloofness his attempts to
02:16:45 aloofness his attempts to control field officers in the SDS and be what we would call as I said before Top Dog I found him a disruptive influence within the SDS and quite frankly I don't think he should ever have been recruited
02:17:02 so your concerns about Scott's impact on the Dynamics within the SDS and the lack of trust and the impossibility of managing him in those circumstances you regarded as a far more important matter than the possibility that your officers were having sex with
02:17:14 that your officers were having sex with members of the public it was a different totally different aspect could we go to paragraph five please
02:17:28 Scot has been told that he will be interviewed by you next week and I have therefore given him until Sunday the 1st of May 1988 to complete his withdrawal
02:17:40 of May 1988 to complete his withdrawal from field duties it is anticipated that he will take a period of leave before returning to special Branch duties at central office the officer currently has 50 rest days owing to him in addition to to his annual
02:18:03 to his annual leave first of all um the 1st of May 19 88 was 12 days after breaking the news to that is not very long for an SDS undercover officer to exfiltrate is it
02:18:15 undercover officer to exfiltrate is it no far less time than normal yes was the date influenced by the fact that you were going to go to bram's Hill on a training course
02:18:32 training course yes uh and is it right uh that he was given he he was left to himself to arrange his exfiltration yes that would be the normal course of events just to compare him to some of his contemporaries first of all
02:18:43 his contemporaries first of all hn33 by all means consult the key first
02:19:00 yes uh hn33 is told us that they pretended to emigrate to Australia sent postcards cannot recall who too no indication there or elsewhere whether the withdrawal took place over a
02:19:14 the withdrawal took place over a prolonged period but long enough for um her Target group to organize a leaving gift a leaving part party and so forth and so a more carefully structured
02:19:26 carefully structured exfiltration yes fair enough yes hn 88 and give you a moment to refresh your memory
02:19:51 88 yes always had a plan uh that his cover story was going to be that he was going to go to France with his girlfriend and that would cover his extraction mhm yes
02:20:04 that would cover his extraction mhm yes and he told his group that that was what what he was going to do and so the road was all ready for him to travel when the time came carefully executed exfiltration
02:20:18 exfiltration strategy Scott was deprived of that opportunity wasn't he yes
02:20:30 for a man who was very proud of being in the SDS and had wanted it very much and had until the 19th of April the impression that his managers thought he
02:20:42 impression that his managers thought he was well-placed and providing very good intelligence it must have come as a considerable blow to be removed from the unit wasn't it I think the blow yes to being removed
02:20:55 I think the blow yes to being removed from the unit and also actually being challenged probably for the first time in his
02:21:11 career moving from from that there was the added pressure of having to arrange exfiltration suddenly and without preparation that would have been a source of considerable stress to him wouldn't
02:21:30 wouldn't it he was a very intelligent officer and it is not without precedent that officers have had to extract themselves um I can't actually remember doing
02:21:37 doing that news of Scott's impending departure
02:21:48 that news of Scott's impending departure went down very badly in certain quarters didn't it yes can you help us with the reaction of Bob Lambert please
02:22:09 personally to me I didn't have a reaction from him but I understand there was a reaction unfortunately when I was away with him and a couple of other officers with the di concerned
02:22:15 concerned the the result of removing scut
02:22:17 scut split the SDS unit almost down the middle with some officers supporting Scott and others not supporting
02:22:30 Scott and others not supporting him and those who supported him supported him on the basis of their ignorance of exactly what he was up to which came out later
02:22:47 on that support manifested itself did it in some people thinking he should stay on the
02:22:48 on the unit almost certainly yes did it also extend to some people thinking that the date that had been set for his exfiltration was too
02:23:00 for his exfiltration was too short nobody on the unit to my recollection ever said that to me
02:23:11 recollection ever said that to me although as you rightly say I did it to try and achieve this before I went on the
02:23:12 the course however I do understand that his um his leaving was extended on a couple of occasions yes it was extended twice was there a feeling amongst your uos
02:23:25 was there a feeling amongst your uos that if Scutt could suddenly be pulled out of their infiltration it might happen to them and it might put them at risk not that I know of you'd have to ask them that was that concern ever ventilated to you
02:23:37 ventilated to you no apart from the forthcoming course at Brownsville was your severe displeasure at scut's Behavior a reinforcing factor in setting a very short deadline
02:24:04 it may well have been I wanted to achieve this exit as quickly as possible I did not want it to fester and to give him two three months to leave would have given him two or three months to think about how he was going to
02:24:15 to think about how he was going to challenge this what he was going to do about it I wanted it done as quickly as possible
02:24:21 possible accepting that there were competing factors for you to balance in hindsight shouldn't the period of been a bit longer than 12
02:24:32 longer than 12 days as far as I was concerned no
02:24:44 no moving uh to uh the split uh were Lambert dines and hn8 all part of the group who were supporting
02:25:03 Scott I think yes I got it yeah as far as I understand yes would you describe them as a
02:25:11 cabal not sure I'd use that word how would you describe them
02:25:20 missguided other than a different difference of view in the handling of stepan Scott's case did you otherwise get on well with those three
02:25:37 officers yes I got on well with them um
02:25:38 um yep yes the incident which you say occurred while you were at bram's Hill is that the incident in which hn 109
02:25:50 is that the incident in which hn 109 says he was pushed against either wall or a
02:25:58 or a window by Bob Lambert correct could you help us when when you first learned about
02:26:02 about that I've thought about that a lot and I have no
02:26:04 have no recollection of hn 109 even mentioning that to me when I came back from Brams Hill and I only leared about
02:26:15 Hill and I only leared about it the best of my knowledge when I started doing my statement
02:26:29 did hn 109 say anything to you about his relationship with Lambert D and hn8 during this period nothing I can specifically remember how influential were Lambert and dines within the unit at the
02:26:41 and dines within the unit at the time they were quite influential they were within the same Target organization which was possibly at the top of our list at the time top of your list in
02:26:54 list at the time top of your list in terms of not only importance but also Prestige for the officer Prestige for the officer if you like and the the importance of um keeping keeping our um our
02:27:07 um keeping keeping our um our penetration of that organization up to speed in terms of the um the criminality they could
02:27:27 cause you go to Brams Hill did you keep in touch with hn 109 about this thorny issue whilst you at Brams Hill
02:27:35 Hill no did you make any arrangements for hm 109 to be supported during that period no he took over as the acting Chief Inspector um and that was it I would I did seriously try and postpone the course but I was not allowed
02:27:54 to as you have said and no doubt you've seen from the documents we've sent you to refresh your memory the deadline for uh scups extraction was extended uh and there was also a meeting at which Lambert
02:28:06 at which Lambert D and
02:28:08 D and hn8 met
02:28:11 hn8 met uh a very senior officer was it usual for undercover officers to go and meet a
02:28:23 for undercover officers to go and meet a senior officer to talk about a Personnel issue
02:28:28 issue no when did you learn about that for the first time I can't remember long time afterwards when you came back from Brams Hill or much later than that I don't
02:28:39 Hill or much later than that I don't know to be honest if you'd known about it what would your reaction have
02:28:49 been the reaction I think I would have had which would have accorded with hn 109's would have been quite simply that if our senior
02:29:06 if our senior officers had accorded with their views and Scott had been retained on SDs he would have won and we would have had to leave the unit your position would have been completely undermined
02:29:21 would have been completely undermined absolutely but they didn't do that they backed you didn't they they
02:29:22 they did you come back from Brams Hill um as far as we understand it on the
02:29:33 um as far as we understand it on the 10th of June 1988 or thereabouts is that right sounds about right by that
02:29:48 right sounds about right by that stage the second extended deadline had expired and Scott had been in communicado since the 6th of June so for several days can you recall the terms in which
02:30:03 days can you recall the terms in which you were appraised of the situation upon your
02:30:09 return I would probably have had a meeting firstly with hn 109 the DI and I might might well have had a meeting with the chief superintendent Mr Parker to
02:30:21 the chief superintendent Mr Parker to bring me up to date as to exactly where we were in this situation there is some evidence that Scott had cried when he spoke to
02:30:38 Scott had cried when he spoke to detective Sergeant sutliffe on Saturday the 4th of June the last contact which had been had with him was that fact
02:30:53 had been had with him was that fact communicated to you no were any concerns about Scott's well Fair communicated to you none that I can remember had Scott ever cried before to your knowledge no
02:31:07 ever cried before to your knowledge no in a 1980s police environment was Poli male police officers crying common
02:31:10 common no almost
02:31:12 no almost unprecedented
02:31:19 yes if you had been told that what difference would it have made none whatsoever crocodile tears in your opinion
02:31:37 absolutely North Yorkshire police found Mr Scott didn't they apparently so yes um if we look at
02:31:46 74934 this is a briefing note from t67 dated the 13th of June
02:31:59 if we look at paragraph
02:32:11 1 12th of June 1988 at 11:15 Sergeant Beach North Yorkshire police contacted special Branch Reserve to confirm the identity of detective Constable Stefan Scott who was detained at York Police Station if we go down to paragraph two
02:32:31 please give you a moment to look at that but Scott has been found sleeping rough hasn't
02:32:33 hasn't he apparently so and there was a concern that he'd been consuming some pills and because he refused to cooperate he was taken to the police
02:32:46 cooperate he was taken to the police station we go to paragraph three please
02:32:55 searched at the police station his annual appraisal report is found in his possession together with correspondence
02:33:07 possession together with correspondence relating to another person Scutt appears to have admitted his true identity and local police are under the impression that the correspondence in his possession relates to a friend these details were in fact Scott's SDS
02:33:20 details were in fact Scott's SDS identity but naturally I encourage local police to believe that their Theory regarding the friend was correct uh first of all
02:33:32 correct uh first of all presumably in his undercover identity Stefan Scott Mo certainly should not have been carrying his aqr with him exactly one wonders why he did that nor should he have revealed his true identity to local police
02:33:49 true identity to local police no were you told of these developments rapidly
02:33:57 rapidly I can't remember exactly when I was told but I was told about them and if we go to paragraph
02:34:04 7 Commander gun was informed at 1120 hours and at his instigation Arrangements were made for DCI 337 WC blank and DS dines to travel to York and collect scut and take him to the
02:34:18 collect scut and take him to the Metropolitan Police nursing home at Peele Center Center um presumably dyes was sent as a friendly face I would presume
02:34:31 friendly face I would presume so did d report back to you after this trip to Yorkshire no did you have any interest in talking to him about what he might have gleaned from
02:34:48 from Scott no because if I remember correctly at this point this aspect of the whole Saga was taken away from me in my capacity as the manager of SDS and was being dealt with by other officers at special
02:35:10 R he's one of your officers it's been a very difficult and divisive issue for you to manage along with hn
02:35:13 with hn 109 it's an extraordinary thing to have happened up in North Yorkshire will you not curious to
02:35:27 know knowing what I did about the man I'm afraid I found his sleeping on a park bench with his
02:35:38 his sleeping on a park bench with his annual appraisal in his pocket merely part of his attempt to bring um how can I put it to bring notice to
02:35:48 notice to himself and
02:36:03 I I think that he would not have spoken to me at all if I tried to speak to him and it was better that others take up that
02:36:05 that mantle um my question is directed at whether you spoke to D when he got back from Yorkshire I don't remember speaking to John dyes at
02:36:16 to John dyes at all why in these extraordinary circumstances were you not interested to
02:36:29 know because the officer had as far as I was concerned he'd been removed from SDS others were dealing with that side of things my boss Mr Parker in
02:36:44 of things my boss Mr Parker in conjunction with the commander had used other officers to collect him I played no part in that at all I'm getting the impression that you were just glad to see the back of him is that
02:36:55 see the back of him is that fair it's it's not an unfair comment yes could we take that document down now and go to
02:37:08 74892 page seven
02:37:16 please minute number eight third
02:37:27 paragraph This is Commander gun's minute as you aware it is my firm view that D DC Scott's case should be pursued on a
02:37:40 DC Scott's case should be pursued on a welfare medical basis unless and until we have good reason to Institute discipline inquiries as such we must now await the outcome of medical psychiatric examination of his before taking any further
02:37:56 before taking any further action did you keep in contact with Commander gun as events
02:38:08 unfolded I think in one or two aspects I may have done but I was kept as I
02:38:20 may have done but I was kept as I realize now out of the loop on lots of developments following on from this now
02:38:22 now the assertion that there would have to be good reason to Institute discipline inquiries by this stage you would no
02:38:35 inquiries by this stage you would no doubt say that you could put together quite a long charge
02:38:42 sheet you've got to look at it in the wider
02:38:43 wider context if I were to Institute discipline inquiries
02:38:56 to Institute discipline inquiries against him he could throw the whole SDS operation into the spotlight and may result in the SDS operation being totally closed down was that a Paramount consideration during the handling of Mr
02:39:07 consideration during the handling of Mr Scott's case it would have been and that would have been at probably at Commander
02:39:22 level because would it be fair to say that the commander here is is clearly shying away from disciplinary action when it could have been instituted disciplinary action could have in in the light of subsequent developments which we've not gone into
02:39:37 developments which we've not gone into it could easily have had he could easily have been disciplined yes well it's not quite my question oh sorry you are quite right that more comes to light in due
02:39:48 right that more comes to light in due course in even longer charge sheet but even by this stage if the disciplinary course had been chosen there was ammunition wasn't there because he disclosed himself to the north yor police he disobeyed your
02:40:00 the north yor police he disobeyed your orders so on and so forth in that there was enough there to remove him from SDS anyway and the reason that that course is being shied away
02:40:19 is being shied away from is operational security isn't it yes and it leaves two choices he goes back to special branch and does something else which had been the original plan or he's medically discharged
02:40:32 discharged yes if you look at it all I did was remove him from one SC Squad in special branch and I would have arranged a
02:40:43 branch and I would have arranged a posting to another Squad in special Branch that's all that was behind it yeah the original plan was he was just going to go to Bod I think I can't
02:40:55 going to go to Bod I think I can't remember now yes but that can be checked yeah can we just explore that right the
02:41:07 yeah can we just explore that right the be the elsewhere in special bran option you've got a man who you think is resistant to orders who is MH dishonest mhm and
02:41:18 orders who is MH dishonest mhm and frankly you don't trust him as far as you can throw him that's a fair assumption and yet you think it would be okay for him to go to B Squad where
02:41:29 okay for him to go to B Squad where presumably those qualities would be equally
02:41:36 equally unwelcome I didn't choose B Squad let me say that straight away I have no knowledge of that whatsoever anywhere within special bran I could put this factiously there's nowhere in special branch that would welcome those qualities is there probably not but there is there were
02:41:48 probably not but there is there were places then where we would put former SDS officers where they were out of the public View and he could have been put
02:42:01 public View and he could have been put into one place where he could have been supervised he would have done a 9 to5 five days a week job working in an office all the while he would have had no opportunity to get up to the tricks he got up to an SDS well he have no opportunity to destroy the
02:42:21 opportunity to destroy the SDS but he would have the opportunity to continue to behave dishonestly and in subordinately within special Branch wouldn't he if that's his chosen way I suppose he would
02:42:32 yes and was the fact at that stage that he was going was going to be moved internally despite those very serious
02:42:44 internally despite those very serious concerns about him as opposed to being disciplined again because of concerns about operational
02:42:57 security sorry I've not quite got the well if you discipline him he might blow the whistle might yes yes of course and that's why the decision is even though we've got a lot of concerns about him let's give him a second chance somewhere else on special Ranch I think some of
02:43:13 else on special Ranch I think some of that was rather an academic exercise and I say that because of my own opinion of the man is once he'd been removed from this Pinnacle of his
02:43:21 career in his opinion he would not be able to show his face in special Branch again and I have no D doubt that had things gone in a different direction in terms of his so-called mental welfare he may well just have resigned
02:43:34 welfare he may well just have resigned anyway but in terms of risk to the SDS
02:43:45 anyway but in terms of risk to the SDS operation it was safer to move him than it was to discipline him is that fair
02:43:54 fair yes coming to the other option a medical discharge now it's very clear from the
02:44:06 discharge now it's very clear from the documents and from your evidence today you just don't believe that Mr Scotts was suffering mentally at all do you correct Mr Scott was medically discharged on the opinion of a consultant psychiatrist wasn't he so I
02:44:20 consultant psychiatrist wasn't he so I understand would it be fair to say that understanding of mental health issues amongst males was very underdeveloped in the 1980s probably and that in any event
02:44:35 the 1980s probably and that in any event you had a very strong view that this was all a put- on job I knew how manipulative he was might it have been the case that although Mr Scott behav very badly he was
02:44:55 was also extremely adversely affected by his Fall From Grace and that he was indeed psychologically harmed by the consequences ultimately of his own actions I don't believe so I really don't I think
02:45:08 don't I think his his Fall From Grace is what he couldn't AC couldn't accept and as I've said earlier for the first time in his
02:45:20 said earlier for the first time in his life and his career he'd been challenged and I don't think he was able to cope with
02:45:21 with that
02:45:27 that because he knew that there was more to be found out about
02:45:40 him there was another problem with medical discharge wasn't there um from your point of view is it comes with a pension doesn't it yes apparently it does uh well you knew that didn't you I knew that and it was leaving something of a taste in your mouth
02:45:56 of a taste in your mouth well it was one way that he could secure an exit from the Metropolitan Police with some money I don't think he gained a lot of money out of
02:46:09 a lot of money out of it and then there was a a gloss on the system wasn't there called an injury award where if the medical discharge was attributable to service there was an enhancement so so I understand
02:46:29 enhancement so so I understand yes and being entirely Frank uh would it be right that that would have been particularly ging to watch Scott
02:46:31 Scott receive
02:46:50 yes could we uh in uh this minute on page seven could we we've had the third paragraph we've got if we look we can see that he's pending uh medical examination um and there is plainly a
02:47:07 examination um and there is plainly a concern about which direction to take if we pick it up now by moving on to
02:47:17 74892 page eight same document page eight minute nine
02:47:28 this is again Commander uh gun I'll give you a moment to cast your eye over it
02:47:37 [Music]
02:48:19 um there is a concern there uh that SDS office might
02:48:21 might find medical discharges convenient um and there had
02:48:32 convenient um and there had been previous examples hadn't there there
02:48:42 had did that dilemma the concern about it being an easy way out for officers
02:48:49 officers VAV the need to protect the operational security of the SDS did that dilemma featuring conversations that you had with Commander gun no Commander gun did not discuss this with me at all was it
02:49:05 discuss this with me at all was it something that was some an issue that you considered and thought about I may well have thought about it did you discuss it with hm 109 May well have done can't remember
02:49:19 109 May well have done can't remember specifically and where did you come out in your consideration of that
02:49:26 issue to be honest I would say that we thought he was pulling the wool over everyone's eyes and he should not be entitled to anything did you think he should have been disciplined or medically
02:49:42 discharged the discipline question again would not have been one for me it would have been for someone higher up the chain but as we've said already there would have
02:49:53 would have been um caution to that that would have had to be considered very very carefully and if I can add a postcript to this in Stefan Scotts um in his name but as far as I was
02:50:06 um in his name but as far as I was concerned afterwards even though we took a lot of
02:50:08 a lot of precautions there was never any indication that he said anything about SDS operations or SDS safe places we had nothing at
02:50:24 all could we take that document down now please and go to
02:50:42 24605 this is a security service uh note for file dated the 15th of June
02:50:48 June 1988 and it records the fact uh that that
02:50:59 that uh Security Service are being told about the Scutt Affair and uh if we look at paragraph one
02:51:09 please during the afternoon of the 15th of June 1988 dihn 109 second in command of the SDS visited F4 at Bolton Street hn 109 brought evil Tidings concerning hn 95 that the latter had long been regarded as one of the bright stars in
02:51:25 regarded as one of the bright stars in the SDS firmament producing First Rate reporting on the swp the s swp Management now fear that their star has collapsed or Worse May
02:51:36 collapsed or Worse May Supernova um they appear to be given to dramatic language don't they exactly could we go to um paragraph four please on page two
02:52:07 Under The Heading the problem um there are three long paragraphs we start with paragraph
02:52:08 paragraph four it seems to suggest that Scott resented control was untruthful made false claims about his background and where he was living in other words it's
02:52:23 where he was living in other words it's a recitation of the issues you've you've described could we go to paragraph five
02:52:34 please subsequently hn 95 refused to speak with SDS management or senior officers from esquad he has also refused to cut his hair shave his beard or
02:52:46 to cut his hair shave his beard or desist from his agent appearance he did agree however to attend sessions with the police psychiatrist at Hender where he claimed victimization and mental disorder because of the pressure of work an investigating officer from
02:52:57 of work an investigating officer from outside escad has been appointed and was due to interview hn 95 on Wednesday the 15th of June SDS are preparing a damage
02:53:10 15th of June SDS are preparing a damage assessment but meanwhile are continuing to run their remaining cases the home office has not been briefed to date following the Fiasco with another UC late last year serials blank and blank
02:53:29 late last year serials blank and blank refer SDS are very worried about their future two things hanging in the air home office haven't been told SDS worried about their future is it right that there was
02:53:42 that there was concern about the SS's future that if Scott turns Supernova um it might be curtains yes
02:54:01 and that um amongst other things the home office would be one of the places where an adverse reaction would come from quite possibly although my understanding is that very few people in the home office actually knew of the SDS operation and then if we go to paragraph
02:54:19 six hm 109 assesses hn 95 to be a con man who has bluffed his way past police colleagues and superiors for a long time he is now furious at finally coming unstuck he is also a greedy man and this was
02:54:31 also a greedy man and this was responsible for the frauds he is allegedly committed hn 109 suspects that what hn 95 now wants is an honorable medical discharge with a lump sum and a
02:54:43 medical discharge with a lump sum and a pension the question is what will he do if he does not get it and is faced with prosecution precisely The Dilemma we've been discussing
02:55:01 been discussing yes if we could take that down please um and could we um go to [Music]
02:55:14 74892 this um at page 11 please is a minute again from Commander gun and uh I'll give you a moment to look at the text
02:56:12 uh the phrase in particular I fear that little will be achieved in pursuing any disciplinary action against Scott indeed we have more more to lose more to lose being the risk he would blow the operation
02:56:24 operation correct and know I've asked you before about your Communications with Commander gun but I would like to be clear just for the avoidance of
02:56:35 for the avoidance of Doubt did he discuss this dilemma with you at this stage in July
02:56:48 no uh could we now have 74 0935
02:57:03 please we can move to the substantive
02:57:08 text page two
02:57:25 please this is a medical opinion about um Mr Scott if we look please at the penultimate
02:57:31 [Music]
02:57:46 paragraph let me just get the precise reference
02:57:52 yeah the paragraph below that
02:57:59 please it is quite difficult to handle these issues when we cannot have full information and I must necessarily go upon what he gives me it was hinted by his Commander that he had been having an affair in the group which he had
02:58:10 affair in the group which he had infiltrated though I have been able to get no hint of this from him I was also unable to get a hint of it from the inspector ector who brought him down
02:58:24 inspector ector who brought him down from Scotland and with whom I discussed his case briefly there is obviously a lot going on here that I cannot know about and I rather feel that the whole
02:58:37 about and I rather feel that the whole thing is now a bit explosive and I will not be available to diffuse it did you know anything about whether or not Stefan Scot was involved in sexual activity with a member of the public in his undercover identity I have no knowledge of that whatsoever
02:58:52 knowledge of that whatsoever was the issue raised with you by Commander gun at all
02:59:03 no if we um Zoom back out and on the first page if we just have a look at the medical summary the large paragraph on the first
02:59:17 page I will give you a moment uh to read that for
03:00:07 uh I'm particularly interested in um the passage towards the bottom the way in which he was withdrawn was unique and hurtful it put him at risk and his
03:00:20 hurtful it put him at risk and his colleagues at risk and excited a great deal of resentment among skill colleagues whose opinion he valued
03:00:27 deeply would you accept that is how Mr scup
03:00:36 felt probably um the opinions that he would value deeply would be the opinions of those who were supporting him and the manner of his withdrawal did cause resentment amongst colleagues didn't it yes
03:00:51 didn't it yes this ended up in his being told that he could not have the dinner that was normally given to people who had come out or that if he did senior officers would not
03:00:58 would not attend it was normal to dine out a departing officer wasn't it we didn't dine them out as you say we would have a lunch at one of the
03:01:10 lunch at one of the flats would it be right that given your views about Mr Scott and hn 109's Views
03:01:22 views about Mr Scott and hn 109's Views about Mr Scout there was no way that you were going to attend any such lunch absolutely
03:01:27 correct this ended up in his being um sorry all this seems to be a calculated disgrace which hurts him very deeply and he assures me that he was told that his removal was entirely on the basis of his aqr and nothing
03:01:40 aqr and nothing else do you have any reason to doubt that for Mr Scott it did appear to him as a calculated disgrace which hurt very deeply I don't accept
03:01:55 deeply I don't accept that he was leaving in disgrace wasn't he he was leaving because he'd been removed from the SDS because of his lack of work etc etc that's a yes isn't
03:02:14 it I'm looking at this which I can see has a lot of comments from the commander where he vehemently disagrees with what's been written here yeah my question to you is that this man is experiencing a considerable Fall From Grace isn't he a fall from grace
03:02:35 yes which putting aside whose fault it was or even assuming it was all his own doing still something which affected him very
03:02:46 deeply I think it would only have affected him in terms of how much we knew about his activities and what he was up
03:02:57 was up to I think mentally he was quite capable of coping with this but that is my opinion only so would that be a convenient moment to break for lunch certainly it would you wanted um the witness to look
03:03:16 would you wanted um the witness to look at the handwritten um self report by um Scott when he joined the police yes um I don't know what arrangements are going to be made for that but can it be ensured that they are made
03:03:30 be ensured that they are made yes right we'll uh break now for an hour
03:03:46 right
03:14:16 e for