Afternoon session with HN39 DCI Eric Docker, SDS manager during late 1980s. Testimony covers HN95 'Scutt affair' - officer feigning mental instability, concerns SDS might be 'folded up' if another similar incident occurred. Docker describes feeling 'bit out on limb', not well supported by managers during crisis. Also discusses viability review of SDS after Scutt affair and appropriate management ranks for unit.
00:05:58 e e
00:06:37 good afternoon everybody most if not all of today's this afternoon's uh proceedings are going to be live streamed those with electronic devices may use them to report what they've
00:06:48 may use them to report what they've heard but only after 15 minutes have elapsed since the event they're describing uh those devices may not be used for recording or photography yes thank you Mr Docker could we have up
00:07:00 could we have up for you to look at please
00:07:12 for you to look at please 35549 tab b78 sir uh this is a record of a meeting with the security service 15th of July
00:07:23 1988 uh if we look at paragraph the first paragraph of the text first of
00:07:34 all we will see that uh the security service have come to you and that they've spoken to you and hn 109 according to the record and if we look at paragraph five deals
00:07:45 five deals with the scut affair appoo of the hn 95 Saga Docker
00:08:04 affair appoo of the hn 95 Saga Docker said that hn 95 continued to Fain mental instability as a result of his SDS work the police psychiatrist appeared to be accepting his performance as genuine however and talked in terms of his needing to work out his alter egoo problem even Commander Ben gun had been forbidden to talk with hn 95 the latter
00:08:16 forbidden to talk with hn 95 the latter was able to roam free and get up to who knew what it looked increasingly probable that he would receive a medical discharge from the police force the Senior mpsb Management had decided that
00:08:31 Senior mpsb Management had decided that it was best to cut their losses and hope that he took the money and kept quiet the feeling seemed to be that following
00:08:45 the feeling seemed to be that following on from the blank and hn 95 cases if any other SDS agent began playing up and seeking a medical discharge the SDS would be folded up do you recall this
00:08:58 meeting I don't recall it no do you have any reason to doubt that you were present no none whatsoever and do you have any reason to doubt uh what is
00:09:14 is recorded uh you saying to them about the scut affair on this occasion I can't challenge it cuz I really cannot remember it but the essence of it would probably be correct um the feeling seemed to be following on from blank and blank and
00:09:29 following on from blank and blank and scut cases if any other SDS agent began playing up and seeking a medical discharge the SDS would be folded up so a feeling that the scut affair might be nearing a resolution through a medical
00:09:47 nearing a resolution through a medical discharge but a fear that it would only take one more such incident and the unit's future was at risk this came from a remark I do recall from Commander gun who said in basic terms that if there was any more
00:10:02 terms that if there was any more of this any more of a repetition of this type he would look to close the SDS
00:10:11 down salatary for you as boss of the unit
00:10:18 yes thank you could we uh take that down now uh please um what happens later in July is Chief
00:10:34 um what happens later in July is Chief superintendent Parker goes to speak to police in Norfolk and learns rather a lot about what norfol police have recorded about Mr scu's behavior in that part of the
00:10:46 part of the world were you made aware of that at the time when he comes back that was kept from me completely at the time and the only way I leared about that was reading the paperwork when I made my statements last year excuse me
00:11:06 last year excuse me Mr Parker did not mention it to me at all corroboration that his personal operational security was very LAX you are talking about Scott yes oh
00:11:17 LAX you are talking about Scott yes oh yes uh and that he was mixing with some quite questionable company well he had um by Dent of his own mouth he had rendered himself unusable either on
00:11:28 unusable either on SDs
00:11:29 SDs possibly um as a police officer and certainly his vetting would have been called into account straight
00:11:40 called into account straight away so corroboration of your feeling that he was a bad egg
00:11:45 yes moving to the autumn in October of
00:11:56 1988 the doctor recommended a medical discharge without an injury award do you know anything about the circumstances in
00:12:11 know anything about the circumstances in which that decision was made no that was made between I think Commander gun and the medical officer and were you told about that decision once it had been cemented I don't specifically remember being told but I must have been
00:12:23 being told but I must have been told can I move to the slightly separate topic of how now that Mr Scott is medically discharged looking back over with the scut affair how well supported
00:12:38 with the scut affair how well supported were you by your managers dealing with a difficult
00:12:39 difficult situation I didn't feel I'd been particularly well supported at all either me or my di could you expand on in what respects you'd not been well
00:12:55 supported I felt a bit out on the limb there is one aspect here that you haven't covered I don't I won't go into it at length but it was when Scott turned up on my doorstep at 4:00 in the
00:13:13 turned up on my doorstep at 4:00 in the morning do you want me to continue about that um we see it is in your statement yes I'd be very interested in you continuing to tell us in the context of how you feel that you were not supported by your
00:13:24 by your managers the amount of stress and strain it was putting upon me and my di in terms of the scut affair the way the office had been
00:13:39 office had been divided where the SDS was actually going to go was causing me a lot of stress it was causing me sleepless nights yet
00:13:53 was causing me sleepless nights yet nobody actually said to me how are you coping it was I assume it was because I'm was the DCI I'm a manager get on with
00:13:57 with it and was that very much a special Branch Way in the 1980s I think it probably would have been then which taught me a lot about
00:14:09 welfare do you wish to identify anybody or any particular failing or would you rather leave it as a leave it as general proposition
00:14:22 a leave it as general proposition please moving on now from scut all together but staying with the consequences of the scut affair you are tasked to produce a paper on the viability in the future of the SDS its
00:14:41 viability in the future of the SDS its strategy Recruitment and supervision yes could we have 731 676 up
00:15:02 please so this is July 1988 after Scott has been discovered but before the medical discharge actually takes place Chief superintendent Parker to you um
00:15:14 Chief superintendent Parker to you um does this document reflect your terms of reference fully and accurately yes it does can you recall whether they were ever
00:15:20 ever changed no I can't did you speak to Chief superintendent Parker or did this brief come completely out of the blue no I
00:15:37 come completely out of the blue no I must have spoken to him about it can you recall what the gist of what he said he was looking for was it would have been much as put out in the minute there um the most concerning thing I think would be the
00:15:53 concerning thing I think would be the the Recruitment and the the process for recruiting SDS officers and as far as possible to to cover things like their their um their mental ability and their
00:16:07 their um their mental ability and their and their aptitude for the job in other words to tighten up our procedures and was this all in the context of this really mustn't happen again because it could threaten the future of the unit well yes and that the
00:16:26 future of the unit well yes and that the SDS could not go on the way it was going on recruiting in the way it was recruiting something had to change uh and did Chief superintendent Parker have a
00:16:37 did Chief superintendent Parker have a view as to whether or not the SDS should continue at all if he did he I have no memory of him voicing that to me was there any element of needing to demonstrate to command a gun that a grip was being taken of these
00:16:53 gun that a grip was being taken of these issues lessons were being learned and he could breathe easy I think that's an element I would accept that that he wanted to be assured that procedures were going to be tightened up and changed within the
00:17:06 tightened up and changed within the SDS thank you if we can take that down now uh we've got documents in the bundle which show you
00:17:18 which show you holding or at least taking the views of DCs short DCS palmenter and DCS sinds um is it C Squad B Squad and E Squad correct yes um did you actually meet and speak to them yes yes did you
00:17:34 meet and speak to them yes yes did you do anything else to gather in gather the information for your report or was it simply um an exercise in Consulting the squad the relevant Squad Chiefs I have no memory of actually
00:17:50 Chiefs I have no memory of actually Consulting other people outside of those those our three main customers if you like um I probably would have obviously
00:18:02 like um I probably would have obviously spoken to my Di and I may have spoken to the Sant in the office as well to bring as many ideas together as
00:18:11 possible could we go to tab b b89 sir 726
00:18:20 998 after some minute sheets we have the report itself at page
00:18:32 seven and if we go in the report in particular to page 9 paragraph 5 please so this is the 22nd of August
00:18:40 1988 and here you're dealing essentially as I understand it with the justification for the continued existence of the SDS I'll give you a moment to refresh your memory [Music]
00:19:01 [Music]
00:19:24 so that's essentially to the effect that the SDS remains perfectly positioned to obtain Intelligence on the sorts of groups special Branch was interest Ed in both from a point of view of public order and also assisting the security
00:19:38 order and also assisting the security service with their counter subversion Mission
00:19:44 Mission yes that conclusion based upon the views of the squad
00:19:55 Chiefs I don't think one of the squad Chiefs agreed with that which Squad Chief B Squad and what was the
00:20:03 reservation he didn't have a lot of product from the SDS the officer himself to my
00:20:14 himself to my best of knowledge never served with SDS or had anything to do with it with the greatest respect to him I don't think he understood it and he didn't really see a need for
00:20:28 it and he didn't really see a need for the SDS in terms of what it could Prov provide for his Squad majority of 3 to one two to one yes two to one
00:20:42 sorry but all based on the value of the intelligence to the respective squads
00:20:57 yes was any thought given to the proportionality of using the undercover tactic for longterm intelligence gathering or was the focus simply is this producing the intelligence we
00:21:13 need in terms of the long-term proportionality I assume you're referring to the length of time in round terms that an officer would expect to spend on SDs no I I'm directing it did
00:21:28 spend on SDs no I I'm directing it did anybody think this is were you weighing up we're getting x amount of intelligence but to do it we are putting officers into people's lives that's
00:21:42 lives that's intrusive is the balance between those two factors weighing in favor of continuing or not or was the question simply are we getting the intelligence that we
00:21:58 that we need two squads yes one Squad no I think think the second part of your question is the answer to that I don't think much consideration would have been given to the first
00:22:09 part could we go to page 14 paragraph
00:22:24 16 prior to an officer taking up his duties at vincon Square I'll let you read on but my questions are going to be about uh the
00:22:36 questions are going to be about uh the visits to the spouses so if you read it with that in mind
00:23:20 see the four reasons there that you've set out what isn't among those four uh four reasons is anything to do with the risk of sexual
00:23:33 risk of sexual activity undercover is there no why that why not I don't know to be honest I don't think it came within the brief that I was given to do this and an honest
00:23:45 was given to do this and an honest answer it wouldn't have occurred to me
00:23:56 answer it wouldn't have occurred to me to bring that up in this aspect of the operation then if we go to page uh 17 please paragraph 24
00:24:10 this is about post field supervision as a result of a meeting set up by then commander felen in July 1987 the procedure for counseling former SDS officers was extended from its original
00:24:22 officers was extended from its original format approved in August 1986 and given a more flexible basis previously interviews had been held with xsds officers at intervals of 3 months and six months following their return to a normal work routine as a result of the
00:24:36 normal work routine as a result of the reassimilation difficulties experienced by detective Constable hn12 Mr felin directed that the procedure should be extended to ker for counseling interviews at intervals of 3 months 6 months 12 months 18 months and
00:24:50 months 6 months 12 months 18 months and 24 months with the Proviso that the last two interviews could be dispensed with if the officer concerned had satisfact satisfactorily returned to main stream special Branch work um and if we go on
00:25:14 please paragraph 25 the system is working
00:25:15 working well
00:25:20 well um and it talks about both formal and informal
00:25:30 informal contact did you ever personally conduct one of the formal post deployment
00:25:36 interviews I honestly can't remember one of the difficulties we are having is that the former undercover police officers
00:25:48 former undercover police officers generally say in evidence that that wasn't happening
00:26:00 wasn't happening so hn33 and hn 88 again hn33 is evidence to is to the effect that they don't recall being offered any advice or ongoing support by the SDS although she didn't feel she needed any and h88 no support from the MPS very
00:26:20 h88 no support from the MPS very informal support from the office but did not feel the need to call the SDS support in line with the era and adequate not complaining about the adequacy but not saying the formal interviews were happening is it possible that the system had been
00:26:35 that the system had been devised but wasn't being implemented as it should have been I cannot remember being aware of a formal interview process following SDS
00:26:49 formal interview process following SDS applo uh deployment um other than what is mentioned in here in my report now there were two aspects to this one
00:27:02 now there were two aspects to this one of which was a rather un icial aspect in that an SDS officer returning to normal duties at Scotland Yard um other SDS officers would also have been contacted and say to say keep an eye on this officer please and the
00:27:19 an eye on this officer please and the officer would also have been told if you have any problems you can come to us in the first place that is the type of informal contact I think we would have had but I can't be definite because I simply don't
00:27:33 simply don't remember you've talked about problems would it be apt to divide them into two types one was purely practical problems whoa they're
00:27:53 purely practical problems whoa they're going to post me in a public facing role please stop this happening that sort of thing and the other I'm struggling mentally I'm struggling with my well-being there's psychological imp act arising from my service I'd like to talk to somebody or talking to somebody might help to elicit
00:28:09 talking to somebody might help to elicit that and do something about it were both those elements in play the reassimilation um would normally be preceded by um an interval of leave for the officer as has been
00:28:23 of leave for the officer as has been mentioned earlier something two 3 months maybe giving them plenty of time to reassimilate in their home address and with their family um as far as public interface
00:28:36 family um as far as public interface goes we did our very best to avoid that and there were places where we could post offices where they wouldn't be in contact with the general public yeah my question is more the informal support
00:28:49 question is more the informal support mechanisms that were in place were they designed to deal with did they have the effect of enabling issues such as the Practical
00:29:01 enabling issues such as the Practical ones as well as the well-being ones both being
00:29:04 being raised they would hopefully enable them to be raised and they could then be dealt with bearing in mind that the SDS
00:29:15 dealt with bearing in mind that the SDS officers who were redeployed back to the yard would not be seen by us on a daily or even weekly basis anymore could we take the document down now please
00:29:27 um
00:46:55 e e
00:47:43 okay I'm on screen now
00:47:55 sorry so it's okay you said a chair no no it's just because the timing so people in this room know what the
00:48:06 penal notice if any person disobeys this order the matter may be certified to the high court which may hold that person to be in contempt of the inquiry and that person may be imprisoned fined or have
00:48:19 person may be imprisoned fined or have their asset seized any person who knows of this order and does anything which helps or permits any person to breach the terms of this order may also after ification to the high court beh held to
00:48:31 ification to the high court beh held to be in contempt of the inquiry and may be imprisoned find or have their asset seized restriction order under section 19 of the inquiries act
00:48:42 19 of the inquiries act 2005 inadvertent disclosure during charch 2 Phase 2 hearings upon the chairman considering his power to make a restriction order under section 192b of the inquiries act 2005 read with
00:49:00 192b of the inquiries act 2005 read with section 9 193 thereof it is ordered that there should be no disclosure or publication made of the information
00:49:12 publication made of the information stated during the hearing on the 28th of January between the time of 1438 and 1440 this order does not prohibit disclosure to members of the inquiry team if the inadvertent disclosure related to the identification of a
00:49:27 related to the identification of a person whose name whether real or cover has been restricted disclosure to that person's legal team if the inadvertent disclosure related to another matter restricted in the public interest disclosure to the legal team who made the application to
00:49:43 legal team who made the application to restrict it a record of this restricted information shall be identified within the full transcript of the day's proceedings and held by the inquiry at the relevant security classification the public transcript of
00:49:54 classification the public transcript of the day's proceedings will have the same restricted information exile any person affected by this order May apply to the chairman to vary it this order does not bind the inquiry team
00:50:05 order does not bind the inquiry team which should take its own measures to ensure the information the subject to this order is not disclosed in such a way as to undermine its intended effect this order will have effect until further order so join
00:50:25 meting about minutes start
00:50:55 for
00:52:55 e e
00:53:50 there must be no disclosure or publication made of the information stated during the hearing today between 238 and 2:40 both minutes
00:54:07 inclusive thank you sir uh you were set some homework at lunchtime where you shown the
00:54:11 shown the document I did manage to read the majority of it difficult as it was is it right that the manuscript pen picture does not contain embellishment
00:54:25 picture does not contain embellishment about the military career it must have been the oral representations that you were thinking of that was my mistake it must have been the oral ones you're quite correct can I ask you just a question
00:54:39 correct can I ask you just a question about SDS procedure when the when the officer's
00:54:48 officer's report was a file kept of the officer's reporting in the SDS office or was all the material being going straight up to C Squad
00:55:06 I can't absolutely remember I doubt we'd have kept a copy of every report we simply wouldn't have had the room
00:55:13 um can you recall whether drafts were kept until reports were finalized no I can tell you now the drafts which were mainly handwritten by
00:55:25 drafts which were mainly handwritten by the officers collected from the meetings we would tidy them up perhaps put them dramtically better once those had been typed and signed off the drafts were
00:55:43 typed and signed off the drafts were shredded apart from correcting the solic isms did you involve yourself in correcting the substance at all personally no were any of your fellow managers instructed to make substantive changes
00:55:54 instructed to make substantive changes to what was reported not as far as I can remember did any of them do so to the best of your knowledge to the best of my knowledge
00:56:06 knowledge no this is the UNF finely uh section uh Mr Docker and it's about your reflections of your time in the
00:56:17 time in the SDS going to go through a number of topics on the theme of whether training would have equipped you and your
00:56:30 you and your officers
00:56:32 officers better to discharge your responsibilities first of all do you think on
00:56:45 think on reflection if you had available formal training or formal guidance drawn to your attention when you join the unit explaining to you clearly
00:57:01 clearly where the boundaries were what was to be avoided in order not to get in trouble with the criminal justice system and mislead courts that is quite a huge
00:57:19 courts that is quite a huge question some training may have been welcome I don't um I don't decry anything in that aspect that would have
00:57:33 anything in that aspect that would have been us useful the SDS was such a unique operation though it had unique problems and unique Solutions very few of which could be put into a training
00:57:45 into a training manual the actual basis for the SDS and the the basis of how it was run may have been useful in a trading exercise but equally going in there as I did on the
00:58:02 equally going in there as I did on the job training I found just as useful even though it was a very sharp learning curve but you have officers as we've been through going through the criminal courts in false identities misleading
00:58:18 courts and that sort of thing warrants being issued with the courts being misled wouldn't some formal training and clear instruction have better equipped you to deal with
00:58:30 have better equipped you to deal with those situations and made clear that the court could not be misled should be told or the situation avoided it may well have done I don't I don't um disagree
00:58:46 have done I don't I don't um disagree with that it may also have inhibited a lot of the SDS operation and in terms of the aspect you are talking about with the courts
00:58:59 are talking about with the courts decisions as to um what would and would not put before a court would not have been taken at my level they would have been much higher up the chain even if
00:59:13 been much higher up the chain even if the advice had had been if this happens it must be signed off at this level would that have
00:59:20 helped I think there would have been how can I put it um an understanding from myself and from the DI that when something like that did
00:59:34 DI that when something like that did happen it was not our responsibility solely to take a decision on it and as an experienced police officer I would have certainly referred those sorts of questions higher up the
00:59:52 sorts of questions higher up the chain in terms of selection of targets whether or not a Target was justified not just whether the intelligence might be of use but whether it was
01:00:04 be of use but whether it was proportionate to the degree of intrusion that was going to be involved in obtaining it would clear guidance on that have assisted you it might have done but there again
01:00:19 you it might have done but there again the targeting was normally a matter for the squad Chief superintendant you've said that but it was part of your job to ensure sure wasn't it that your officers were
01:00:33 wasn't it that your officers were staying on the straight and narrow and if
01:00:34 if their
01:00:36 their reporting their target began to look less attractive or less Justified than at the start to say so yes because
01:00:48 than at the start to say so yes because there had been occasions when an officer would have said there's very very little in this group there's not much in it for us we would discuss with the squad Chief maybe adjust the targeting and would
01:01:03 maybe adjust the targeting and would clear guidance as to the circumstances in which you might think about doing that have assisted you if such a thing could be produced I suppose so yes so far as the content of reporting is
01:01:14 far as the content of reporting is concerned I've shown you examples of confidential information I've shown you
01:01:27 confidential information I've shown you examples of Legal Professional privilege and other examples of potentially irrelevant but highly private information being reported would clear guidance on where lines should be drawn what should and
01:01:44 lines should be drawn what should and should not be committed to paper have assisted you and your unit to ensure that its
01:01:45 that its reporting was appropriate again it might have done uh bearing in mind as I've said before we are going back to the late 80s now
01:01:56 now where that type of guidance probably wouldn't even have been contemplated in the first
01:02:06 the first place might have done surely to take a clear example Legal Professional privilege it's a technical subject you'd had no training no surely the answer must be of course it would have helped you may well have helped me it would
01:02:17 you may well have helped me it would have also helped perhaps Squad Chiefs as
01:02:22 well similarly guidance on where the law stands on Entry by police officers in
01:02:34 stands on Entry by police officers in their undercover identities onto private property that would have been of assistance wouldn't
01:02:42 it maybe the problem with that would have been that SDS officers would have hardly been able to go into any premises because they were in their alter
01:02:54 egos does it follow from that that you thought that your officers were unlawfully entering people's properties never occurred to me I regarded it as part of the SDS operation that was
01:03:14 it moving on to the question of sexual relationships in undercover identities with members of the
01:03:25 public might it have discouraged officers if they had been told very clearly
01:03:26 clearly indeed that it was strictly
01:03:37 forbidden it might have done and there again it might have driven the whole problem further underground is your answer to the next question going to be the same namely if they had been told there would be
01:03:53 they had been told there would be serious adverse consequences if they did if they've been told that I doubt we'd have ever been we wouldn't have been told anything at all
01:04:07 wouldn't have been told anything at all about their sexual relationships and we weren't but it might have discouraged people it
01:04:16 might to build an excuse to avoid sexual activity into undercover Legends in every case
01:04:36 one would have to be careful because there will be only so many excuses that could be used there are only so many exit strategies cover Employments etc etc and that didn't stop the SDS operating might it have
01:04:50 the SDS operating might it have assisted avoiding sexual relationships if it had been formal SDS
01:05:05 if it had been formal SDS policy to build in a creative excuse to avoid sexual activity into a legend it might have done it might have become part of an SDS manual I don't
01:05:16 know might it have assisted if officers had been told openly and frankly you might find yourself wanting to make a sexual approach to an
01:05:30 to make a sexual approach to an attractive young woman undercover don't and if you feel the Temptation tell us let's talk it through and decide what to do about
01:05:44 it I'm dealing with experienced police officers that shouldn't need to be spelled out to them Dot and comma like that but wouldn't spelling it out to them as openly and bluntly
01:06:00 them as openly and bluntly as that have kept the prohibition at the Forefront of their mind and maybe stopped an officer taking that fateful step into a deceitful sexual relationship that's a
01:06:18 possibility a direction that if they were the
01:06:19 were the subject of sexual attention that they should report it so that it could be
01:06:31 that it could be discussed and an appropriate response found a possibility again frankly a system which dealt with the reality of the risk upfront headon and
01:06:53 openly it would have to be a very comprehensive system because one cannot foresee What problems will crew on an individual basis and on a squad basis would you agree that it would have
01:07:06 would you agree that it would have assisted if there had been a culture of discussing openly and frankly and regularly with
01:07:17 openly and frankly and regularly with managers whether there were any sexual issues
01:07:19 issues Brewing it might have been if the officer was willing to discuss those sorts of things with us if they weren't
01:07:30 sorts of things with us if they weren't then there wouldn't be a lot I could do about it but wouldn't it have stood in stark
01:07:36 stark contrast to the atmosphere you've described
01:07:39 described 1980s male dominated comments about whether women
01:07:51 dominated comments about whether women were attractive or not happening being discussed a culture of sexualized reports wouldn't setting an entirely different atmosphere with a Prohibition on sexual
01:08:08 on sexual relationships have stood a chance of stopping relationships or at least diminishing the risk with the benefit of hindsight it probably would have been helpful useful
01:08:26 probably would have been helpful useful unfortunately I didn't have that benefit in the late 80s and I developed in the
01:08:27 in the SDS and worked to the rules that were shown to me then and I continued with them right or
01:08:39 them right or wrong and would it have assisted to build in independent objective
01:08:53 build in independent objective checks of other sources of intelligence whether it be surveillance photographs reporting from other sources to check whether there appeared to be an officer who was potentially in a sexual
01:09:05 relationship I don't know how You' do that you couldn't possibly use a surveillance team just to check on something like that talking about having a system in place to look at photographs
01:09:17 a system in place to look at photographs from demonstrations and so forth just to see whether your officers were in fact in the company of a young woman in circumstance stances which suggested a
01:09:29 circumstance stances which suggested a relationship and if so following it up we didn't use photographs on those specific terms that she raised but I have a memory on more than one occasion
01:09:43 have a memory on more than one occasion of Bunches of photographs being sent out to the officers taken at demonstrations for them to see if they could identify the people in the photographs and what I'm suggesting is those photographs could have been looked at for an additional purpose they could have been
01:10:02 and making it clear to officers that there would be checks to see whether they were
01:10:09 behaving I suppose it's a good thought but it wasn't done then you used the phrase in hindsight that you've told us you had an inkling that it might be
01:10:24 that it might be happening these are all measures some or all of them which you could have taken couldn't you to put a system in place to address the
01:10:46 risks I had no proof anywhere and I very much doubt where I would have got that proof unless the person concerned the lady had come to us somehow and informed us about it then we could have done something about it well somehow is the key word in that
01:10:58 well somehow is the key word in that answer because they didn't know who they were precisely being deceived by so my chances of doing anything
01:11:10 by so my chances of doing anything positive about that I think were very very slim no matter what warnings I might have given them and I admit I don't specifically remember giving them any particular warning about sexual
01:11:26 Leo you've explain that one of the reasons why you didn't do anything was because you thought if you confronted an officer they wouldn't tell you the truth none of the measures I've just suggested are
01:11:43 dependent on that in the sense that you could put them all into place in the hope that they would collectively diminish the risk of an officer going off the
01:11:54 off the rails why didn't you do more than you actually did
01:12:04 at the time I thought the SDS was running quite well I didn't actually perceive the problems that you've raised as being problems because I didn't know about
01:12:16 problems because I didn't know about them not a big concern no it wasn't a big concern to me at the
01:12:23 time did you think it was an event which if it happened was particularly serious do you think it was serious for an officer to
01:12:35 think it was serious for an officer to have a sexual relationship with a member of the public in their undercover identity yes did you give any consideration to the consequences for the women
01:12:50 concerned not particularly no and might that uh lack of consideration have been one of the reasons why you did not do more I can't say that's correct no it simply did not occur to
01:13:15 me how important did you think the bodily autonomy of activist women was at the
01:13:16 the time I don't understand your
01:13:26 question how important did you you think it was that a female activist should make an informed decision about who she had sex
01:13:39 with that's surely a decision for her isn't
01:13:44 isn't it she needs to be informed doesn't she before she can make an informed decision so as far as she's concerned she's having aasm with somebody she thinks
01:14:00 is a particular name who is actually an undercover officer is that what you're saying yeah she's being deceived as to who the man really is was that
01:14:13 is was that something that ever crossed your mind not particularly no because I didn't
01:14:25 not particularly no because I didn't have any information about this type of sexualism going on you've told us that you appreciated it might be
01:14:37 happening did it bother you that a woman might be having sex with someone one of your
01:14:38 your officers without informed consent looking back on it now yes it does at the time at the time no it didn't didn't occur to
01:14:55 didn't didn't occur to me the same question about a member of the public who is female but not an activist did that make any difference to your thinking at the time or
01:15:07 your thinking at the time or now not at the time now I would think exactly the same way it's it's basically not
01:15:26 on standing back do you think that detective Chief Inspector was the right rank for the head of the
01:15:38 SDS in terms of the immediate day-to-day supervision probably you also have a hierarchy going up through the ranks going up to Chief superintendent
01:15:50 ranks going up to Chief superintendent level on the squad which is responsible for
01:15:52 for SDS so I think Di and Chief Inspector are about the right ranks when you are in charge of mainly detective constables and in some cases detective
01:16:15 sergeants Mr Docker thank you very much that brings to an end this part of the process there'll be a break and then there may be some more questions as you will gather almost at an end but not necessarily quite that's a right sir uh I'll rise for 15 minutes
01:16:29 a right sir uh I'll rise for 15 minutes to enable the rule 12 rule 10 questions to be put to you thank you
01:16:53 sir for