Brief afternoon session examining HN39 DCI Eric Docker about Bob Lambert's participation in ALF cell, his knowledge of Lambert's intelligence sources, and plans for searching Lambert's address to support his credibility.
00:01:58 e e
00:02:49 good afternoon most of this afternoon's proceedings will be uh live streamed um those with uh electronic devices capable of uh transmitting and recording may use them to transmit what they hear in the
00:03:02 to transmit what they hear in the hearing room but only after 15 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're describing those devices may not be used for uh recording or photography uh part of the proceedings uh will be uh the subject of reporting
00:03:15 uh will be uh the subject of reporting restriction orders uh those of you who are in the room uh will know that uh the Restriction orders must be strictly complied with and nothing must be
00:03:30 complied with and nothing must be broadcast to the outside world world uh which is uh the subject of such orders yes thank you sir could we have up please 735 382 Mr Docker this is a document that
00:03:46 382 Mr Docker this is a document that the chairman referred to just before we Rose for
00:03:50 lunch could we have paragraph two please
00:04:03 the question is what did you say to Mr Lambert about his participation in the
00:04:12 cell I I have no recollection of saying anything to him about his participation in the cell it wasn't something that was actually discussed between us are you sure about that to the best
00:04:26 us are you sure about that to the best of my memory and my best of my knowledge yes and why was that
00:04:41 I don't know it didn't it didn't come into the conversation between us I can't actually answer the question as to why it just didn't occur to
00:04:55 me could we now go back to MSW do you now know who MSW is I've seen the identity of the person could we have that document taken down and 735 381 brought back up
00:05:10 please this is the briefing note we looked at earlier could we have the fourth paragraph uh on the first page up
00:05:19 please was it Mr Lambert who identified
00:05:30 MSW the identity of MSW is completely unknown to me was it Mr lamber to express the view that MSW was the Quarter Master I have
00:05:45 that MSW was the Quarter Master I have no knowledge of that whatsoever doesn't mean anything to me did he explain to you the basis for his belief I don't know I can't answer your question I don't know who this person is doesn't ring any bells with me could we go to the second
00:05:58 the second page and the second paragraph the second page please the providing intelligence Source has also been fully identified to di gray and arrangements are in hand for a specifically selected s so13 team to
00:06:10 specifically selected s so13 team to search his address and detain him for an appropriate period of time as a means of supporting his
00:06:21 supporting his credibility at this stage it was thought that an attack was going to happen in the next few days and the plans appear to be being
00:06:33 to be being laid um to conduct a search of Bob Lambert's address is that right so I understand yes and to detain him if
00:06:48 him if necessary how did you identify Mr Lambert to Mr
00:06:53 Gray di gray would have known him
00:07:01 anyway why would was the squad to be specifically
00:07:10 selected to search Bob Lambert's address what what you sorry I don't understand it says arrangements are in hand for a specifically selected so13 team and I I'm interested to know what spe why the word specifically was
00:07:26 what spe why the word specifically was added are we talking about searching Bob Lambert's address yes the only explanation I can give to that was if I remember rightly the man to
00:07:39 was if I remember rightly the man to lead the team who was by then working in the SB cell in so13 was also one of the sergeants in
00:07:51 so13 was also one of the sergeants in the office on SDs we'll come later to a search that was actually executed in September and are you referring to detective Sergeant couch who was a member of that team is it your evidence that he was due to be a member of the team in August as well I may have got muddled up but I
00:08:04 well I may have got muddled up but I think I think you're right you may be referring to the September one as for this August one I don't
00:08:19 know it suggests there there needs to be some form of specific selection were these officers going to be told that the person whose accommodation they were searching was an undercover police officer no and would that have been been a breach of op operational
00:08:34 been been a breach of op operational security if they'd done so certainly in my opinion yes did Lambert know that his address was going to be searched yes and did he know that he might be
00:08:50 detained yes and was that an outcome that he thought might assist his cover yes and what was your view as to the wisdom or otherwise of detention I didn't have a problem with it CU I
00:09:02 I didn't have a problem with it CU I knew if he was detained he wouldn't be charged with any substantive offense and therefore it might enhance his credibility as you say is it likely that he would have been questioned under
00:09:15 he would have been questioned under caution you'd have to ask the um the antiterrorist squad that they were the ones who were doing the uh investigation you have to forgive me you've had rather more experience in the police than I
00:09:28 more experience in the police than I have but based on your many years of experience someone who's arrested on suspicion of
00:09:40 someone who's arrested on suspicion of being involved in a terrorist attack uh would they likely be interviewed under caution quite
00:09:48 possibly did you give that possibility any consideration not at the [Music]
00:09:53 [Music] time uh can we take that down now please could we have up 735 362
00:10:06 this is a minute dated the 26th of August
00:10:12 1987 and I'll give you a moment to look at it uh we'll start on the first page
00:10:28 please for
00:11:07 [Music] can you help us with the discussions that the extensive discussions uh that you had had with tn42 that are referred to in that
00:11:30 note TN 42 the signatory detective superintendent tn42 too yes I think I know who that is um I have no immediate recollection of those
00:11:37 those [Music]
00:11:41 discussions uh and if we go down the
00:11:52 page i''ll give you an opportunity to read uh what had been seen by the surveillance team
00:12:03 [Music]
00:12:21 then if we go over the page yeah and see what had come in from your Source we have just
00:12:22 have just the top paragraph on minute 18 thank you
00:12:45 this has come from Lambert hasn't it must have done yes and it clearly shows that he has very good access to what Clark and sheeper are doing doesn't he yes um did you discuss that with
00:12:58 yes um did you discuss that with him well I must have done because I'm quoted here here is
00:13:10 quoted here here is um is relaying the information from the source excuse me um back to um C Squad did you ask him how he'd got that intelligence no uh could we take the document down now please and have 735 376 [Music]
00:13:36 so you sign the minute sheet and then if we go to the report itself it's a report signed by Chief superintendent Parker dated the 28th of August 1987 this is the report which uh Records that the attack is being
00:13:52 that the attack is being postponed and if we look first of all at paragraph
00:13:53 paragraph [Music]
00:14:01 2 I'll give you a moment to look at that
00:14:16 [Music] okay are you able to help us with whether or not Mr Lambert went on that reconnaissance I don't [Music]
00:14:28 [Music] know and is that because you didn't ask it's because I don't know it's as simple as
00:14:40 that did Mr Lambert say anything to you about how he'd got that intelligence I have no recollection of that at all could we go to paragraph three please
00:15:09 it's quite a striking occurrence isn't it the appearance of 200 liberated rats yes can you recall that very very vaguely can you recall whether Mr Lambert told you anything about how the rats got
00:15:26 there well they were obviously liberated from an an animal establishment somewhere but I can't recall exactly what he might have said to me no is it likely that there was a conversation about it there might have
00:15:46 been did he say anything about why it was that the presence of those rats at Helen Steel's address meant that the attack had to be
00:15:57 postponed no I I don't know I can't I can't put the two things together and I don't have any recollection of the reasoning behind it can you recall whether there was
00:16:10 whether there was any ever any discussion about the removal of the
00:16:19 rats there is something in my mind that says they had to be taken somewhere else obviously they couldn't be left there but more than that I couldn't tell you can you help us with whether or not Mr
00:16:31 can you help us with whether or not Mr Lambert play played a part in removing the rats from Helen Steel's
00:16:43 address I I don't know he might well have done I can't answer it because I don't know can't remember if their presence was impeding the progress of the
00:16:55 impeding the progress of the attack removing them would give a degree of control about when the attack was going ahead wouldn't it
00:17:02 I suppose so if they had to be moved yes was there any discussion about taking control by having Lambert play a part in the removal of the rats there may have been I can't
00:17:17 rats there may have been I can't remember it can you recall whether that is something you permitted Lambert to do no because I have no real
00:17:33 do no because I have no real recollection of what happened after this minute here can you recall whether you prohibited Lambert from removing the rats I can't is it likely that you would have done
00:17:48 so I don't I can't answer that question I don't
00:17:54 know could we um take that down please and go to 735 363 this is uh one of TN 42's minutes it's dated the 28th of
00:18:11 August if you look on the first page at the second paragraph
00:18:31 please this is about the termination of surveillance in the light of the postponement of the attack it was explained that the source should be in a position to give early warning of Clarks and Shepherds in
00:18:42 warning of Clarks and Shepherds in tension this line of intelligence linked to other coverage of those involved means that we are confident of being able to monitor their preparations and deploy surveillance at an appropriate time presumably losing track of people
00:18:56 time presumably losing track of people who were intent on planting improvised incendiary devices was the last thing you wanted to happen absolutely and does it follow that you were very confident
00:19:08 it follow that you were very confident in Bob Lambert's ability to keep tabs on Clark and sheeper yes and that was because he was right in the
00:19:14 the cell you say he was in the cell in all probability he might well have been but he never admitted that to me and I'm not sure that I ever asked him about it anyway
00:19:32 could we um take that down now please and have 735 377
00:19:38 [Music]
00:19:49 up again page one paragraph three this is special Branch briefing note 28th of August the leading conspirators Clark and shepher are still planning to make four devices which would be put down
00:20:05 four devices which would be put down probably on Friday the 11th of September 1987 so again excellent intelligence about the forthcoming new date yes uh leading conspirators was there ever any did he did lamber ever
00:20:16 there ever any did he did lamber ever say anything to you about who the other conspirators were not to my memory no did you ever ask him well no Clark and shepher were always put forward as the main protagonists in this
00:20:33 was it in your mind that when arrests were made of Clark and Shepherd people would want to know how the police had known to arrest
00:20:51 the police had known to arrest them yes and one of the problems you had was Mr Lambert was very close to them
00:20:58 them yes was a decision taken not to arrest any other
00:20:59 any other conspirator to leave more possibilities as to who might have assisted
00:21:12 assisted police the decision on whom and who to arrest was not taken by me that would have been taken by Chief superintendent Commander rank I'm I'm not asking who took the decision I'm asking whether
00:21:23 took the decision I'm asking whether there was a plan deliberately to exclude some people a person or some people from arrest for operational security
00:21:38 arrest for operational security reasons there wouldn't have been a plan specifically to exclude our undercover officer uh because that would have shown him up straight away being the level he was at within the
00:21:53 was at within the organization and what about other people other people weren't my concern
00:22:07 could we uh take that down now please sorry can we go to the second page and have paragraph
00:22:17 s again an assertion here about confidence in Lambert's position so you are telling your chain of command my man is is on
00:22:36 command my man is is on it in Broad terms yes could we have 735 374
00:22:54 please this is dated the 4th of September that's a Friday um and it a report I'll give you a moment to read it but it's making promises about the
00:23:06 but it's making promises about the intelligence that will be obtained over the coming weekend
00:23:26 [Music]
00:23:46 is it likely you got this intelligence from Lambert on the Thursday and that it was typed up on the Friday I can't remember when I got it is that one possibility it's a
00:23:57 it is that one possibility it's a possibility the other it was telephoned in might have been been telephoned in again uh you have a source who is
00:24:08 in again uh you have a source who is very confident that he's able to keep tabs on those who are going to manufacture the devices yes and you have a very high degree of confidence in his ability to continue to do so yes and
00:24:21 ability to continue to do so yes and presumably if you'd had any doubts you would have expressed them to your chain of command yes and you did exactly the opposite because you did have confidence in him I
00:24:35 in him I did could we take that down and could we uh have up 735 375
00:24:48 please this is briefing note dated the 6th of
00:24:50 6th of September
00:24:51 September 1987 so this is the Sunday uh if we could it's produced by ins by
00:25:04 ins by tn42 uh could we have up please paragraph
00:25:20 1 so it appears you telephoned tn42 at half 10 on a Sunday morning and
00:25:31 tn42 at half 10 on a Sunday morning and that is because um there was a change of plan yes
00:25:37 plan yes and therefore you got your boss you troubled your boss on a Sunday morning I don't know whether he was at Scotland Yard anyway I don't know whether I was at home or whether I was in work I can't remember right and
00:25:49 in work I can't remember right and presumably Lambert had communicated to you either earlier that morning or late on the Saturday night can you remember which
00:26:00 which no and can you remember how he got in touch with you did you meet him or did he telephone
00:26:16 he telephone you most likely he would have telephoned me again did you make any inquiries as to how uh Lambert had got that information no and if we look at paragraph three please
00:26:32 [Music] and the urgency of the report is explained by the fact that later that
00:26:43 explained by the fact that later that same day the intelligence was that Clark and shepher were going to experiment with a new type of
00:26:49 device so very important intelligence yes and paragraph four
00:27:04 nevertheless assembly of the iids for the next attack was likely to take place on Wednesday the
00:27:17 9th if we go to paragraph um five the 11th remained the selected day for the devices to be put down it would appear that the prospective targets have now been chosen however for security reasons details are being confined to
00:27:36 reasons details are being confined to the two principles no mention here of who is going to plant the devices did you ask any questions about that I may have done I can't
00:27:48 that I may have done I can't remember if there were if Bob had given me any other information that would have been sent across as well and presumably committed to paper yes
00:28:04 did it strike you as curious that so close to an attack on the 11th this is the pre the preceding Sunday that nobody had been identified to plant
00:28:21 identified to plant devices I don't think it occurred to me at the time no were you not the least bit inquisitive about why that
00:28:28 was I don't recall being um inquisitive no because presumably you would at the very least like to know who had joined the
00:28:44 like to know who had joined the conspiracy to plant the devices wouldn't you yes and ideally you would want to arrest them yes but you didn't ask I didn't ask and I was confident that the two protagonists would have been arrested
00:28:57 protagonists would have been arrested before they had a chance to plant the device
00:29:02 device anyway could we take that down and have 735 373
00:29:16 please this is a this is a report on the Monday uh following the weekend we've just been looking at if we look at who signed it
00:29:34 s signed by Chief superintendent McLoud could we go back to paragraph two
00:29:48 please there it explains where um intelligence was obtained at an an anarchist benefit gig in North 16 had that information been imparted to you on the
00:29:58 the Sunday by Bob
00:30:05 Lambert I don't think so otherwise it would have been forwarded in the normal way with the other information well how did it come to be recorded on the Monday in a typed report then I don't know did you have any further
00:30:20 know did you have any further conversations with Lambert between the Sunday morning and this report being typed on the Monday I can't remember
00:30:30 could we go to paragraph three
00:30:41 please and I'll give you a moment to read
00:31:00 it this was referred to in the brief note we looked at earlier it's a switch of venue for manufacturer that's of crucial importance isn't it to your plan to arrest Clark and Shepherd did you
00:31:12 to arrest Clark and Shepherd did you interrogate at all Mr Lambert about the reliability of that intelligence no why
00:31:23 intelligence no why not cuz knowing Bob as I did I was happy that that information was accurate completely reliable yes could we go to paragraph four please
00:31:34 please I'll give you uh a moment to read that
00:31:51 [Music]
00:32:06 we're back to the rats and um they are linked to the day on
00:32:10 on which the devices are going to be manufactured and the attack goes ahead did you discuss at all with
00:32:21 ahead did you discuss at all with Lambert what is described here as the full resolution of the rat problem I don't recall discussing it with him but I may have
00:32:35 with him but I may have done and it is important to control over the timing isn't it reading this in respect of the
00:32:47 it reading this in respect of the removal of the rats you mean yes seems to be very important to them and was there a
00:32:53 there a decision that Lambert either would or would
00:32:55 would not move the rats in order to facilitate the construction of the devices at a time when Clark and sheeper could be
00:33:06 could be arrested I have no recollection of agreeing to or stopping him from such a course of action did anybody else I don't know because you got with
00:33:18 don't know because you got with surveillance surveillance teams don't come cheap do they no the surveillance teams have been working over the weekend everybody's hoping they'll
00:33:29 weekend everybody's hoping they'll manufacture the devices on the 9th and be arrested aren't they I think that was the
00:33:35 the [Music]
00:33:40 [Music] plan so doing the best you can I appreciate it's a long time ago was
00:33:47 ago was there any plan to remove the rats to enable the arrest to go ahead as far as I was concerned I did not know or I don't recollect a plan to remove the rats
00:33:58 remove the rats undoubtedly they were
00:34:10 removed was Bob Lambert prohibited in any way from remov the rats to the best of my memory my knowledge my memory I don't recall prohibiting him because I'm not sure
00:34:22 prohibiting him because I'm not sure that the subject of the Rat removal came up did DCI McLoud prohibit Lambert from removing the rats you'd have to ask him that as far as you are aware I don't
00:34:41 know do you know how the rats were in the event
00:34:43 the event removed
00:34:50 removed presumably put in a vehicle of some sort and removed somewhere else I don't know by whom I'm no
00:34:56 IA could could we go to paragraph 8
00:35:03 please give you a moment to look at
00:35:26 it did Lambert tell you anything more about his connections with activists in Manchester
00:35:36 nothing I can recall before the arrests on the 11th of September sorry on the 9th of September did he ever speak about there being any
00:35:45 being any spare
00:35:51 spare devices iids which had been manufactured but were being kept in storage I can't remember that at all any anything like that
00:36:03 anything like that no could we take that down now please and could we go to
00:36:09 um
00:36:15 73816 uh the Youtube I'm told is coming down
00:36:26 now
00:36:56 e for