DCI Eric Docker's first day of testimony covering his time managing the SDS from April 1986. Security Service described him as 'deeper and more devious than his predecessor'. Key topics include: recruitment being 'on a wing and a prayer', deceased children's identities ('I didn't condone it but it was established practice'), never discussing sexual relationships with officers ('they would have blanked me straight away'), SDS operating 'outside the rules and bounds of normal policing', not asking Bob Lambert how he was getting intelligence on the ALF cell, and accepting Lambert was likely 'in the cell' to obtain such detailed intelligence about planned IID attacks.
00:01:58 e e
00:02:52 good morning everybody uh today's proceedings are going to be live streamed
00:03:01 streamed um anyone with a uh electronic device in the hearing room room May report to the outside world what they've heard but only after 15 minutes of elapsed such devices may not be used for recording or
00:03:17 photography I swear by almighty God that the evidence I shall give that the
00:03:24 the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank you
00:03:37 Mr B thank you sir could you give us your full name please Eric Docker uh I understand uh that there are some corrections that you would like to make to the very fullsome witness statement that you've provided to the inquiry
00:03:50 that you've provided to the inquiry first of all um on page six could we have up please 74945
00:04:17 page six
00:04:33 please on the top line I understand understand that um the word for should be against and the word and should be but is that correct that is correct yes thank you if we could take that down now please and have page 93
00:05:21 paragraph
00:05:30 293 uh the second sentence I understand the correction is so that it reads that they would come over two days a week on Tuesday and Friday is that correct that's correct yes subject to those
00:05:48 that's correct yes subject to those Corrections are the contents of your witness statement dated the 18th of December
00:05:49 December 2023 true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief they are could we go please first of all to tab five of your bundles sir 29 9
00:06:17 267 uh this is a note for file produced by the security service in April 1986 when you first join the SDS says DCI Tony weight called at 12:15 on the
00:06:33 DCI Tony weight called at 12:15 on the 16th of April to introduce Mike Barber successor
00:06:34 successor di Eric Docker can you recall that meeting no I can't says after lunch at
00:06:45 meeting no I can't says after lunch at which we were joined by F4 and security service newly arrived I explained my role to Docker and invited him whenever the need arose to get in touch Docker whose last appointment was in the National joint unit terrorism mainly
00:06:58 National joint unit terrorism mainly Irish struck me as being well disposed towards us but deeper and more devious than his
00:07:08 than his predecessor are you devious no are there circumstances in which you might behave in a devious manner
00:07:31 no taking appropriate care for State Secrets what might have given the security service the impression that you
00:07:42 that you were you would have to ask them that but what I would say is on a first meeting as this was I would have adopted the principle I would always say to my young recruits that you have two eyes two ears and one mouth use those in proportion
00:07:59 and one mouth use those in proportion you won't go far wrong so I would have been listening far more than contributing to the
00:08:06 meeting had you worked with the security service
00:08:16 service before on occasions during my career in special Branch from 1969 yes I would have worked with them again taking appropriate care for State Secrets had you had any issues with them none that I can
00:08:32 recall were you deeper and more devious than detective inspector
00:08:42 Barber well there a two parts of that question detective inspector barar in my view is not devious at all I do not regard myself as devious and I find that a very very uninformed remark from somebody in the security
00:08:57 remark from somebody in the security service who has only met me on that one occasion
00:09:05 occasion what was your view of the security services access to SDS undercover officers for debriefing
00:09:19 purposes the access they had would would be entirely dependent upon the officer concerned I would have said to the officer the security service would like to debrief you are you willing to do that if they said to me no that would be
00:09:33 that if they said to me no that would be the end of the matter and why would they be given control over that contact well it would depend they may be in the middle of their
00:09:47 in the middle of their deployment they would have had their own reasons for either agreeing or refusing to meet the security service it may be they didn't want to compromise their identity but I don't know you would have to ask the individual officer concerned
00:10:03 if we could have up now please a document at tab b46
00:10:20 36108 this is a note for file again produced by the security service um if we look at the text on the first page uh the context is
00:10:34 is essentially uh you are telling the security
00:10:36 security service um that uh Chief superintendent Parker was tightening up procedures relating to their access uh to
00:10:48 their access uh to officers um is that correct that is correct and at the bottom of the page as a comment Docker has attempted to
00:10:59 a comment Docker has attempted to portray himself as uninvolved in part 's decision to limit our access to SDS sources I am not convinced and recall a remark made by blank about him in this
00:11:14 remark made by blank about him in this context so here we have them again being a little suspicious about you uh were you um to put it bluntly hiding behind Chief superintendent
00:11:31 Chief superintendent Parker no I do not recall exactly how this came about but I do remember Mr Parker saying to me that in future all requests were to be channeled through him and he would make the
00:11:46 him and he would make the decision was his decision one that you agreed with or disagreed with I was ambivalent about it um if he wanted to um he ran Squad and if he if he wanted to make that decision that was up to
00:11:57 to make that decision that was up to him I would have been been quite happy to have made the decision myself but he took that away from
00:12:07 me when you say he took it away from
00:12:22 you was that a decision you would have expected normally to take yourself well I was taking it myself in conjunction with the officer concerned until Mr Parker decided he would raise uh the level at which which permission was given to his own rank did he tell you
00:12:35 he tell you why not that I can recall I could guess but I don't want to what was the working relationship like uh between special
00:12:49 uh between special branch and the security service in general
00:12:51 general terms it's very difficult for me to answer that question because I wasn't privy to some of the meetings that were had between the security service and the senior officers in special
00:13:05 senior officers in special Branch I think a lot of the time they worked well but there were obviously occasions when the uh it did not work quite so well between us and I don't
00:13:17 quite so well between us and I don't know what um exactly would have brought that about perhaps it was a bit of mistrust between ourselves and the the
00:13:28 mistrust between ourselves and the the security service and from the security service mistrust of us but I don't actually know no can you explain lack of trust to
00:13:39 explain lack of trust to us in terms of how I would have perceived it we never got any idea what they were doing with our product we never got very much feedback from
00:13:50 feedback from them um it didn't it didn't seem to us as if we were on an even playing field a lot of the time I think they were very very happy
00:14:02 time I think they were very very happy to take all the product from us but not a lot was
00:14:09 returned nevertheless did the close working relationship between the security service and the SDS contribute to a feeling that the SDS was an elite
00:14:22 unit I'm sorry I don't quite understand your question contribute to a feeling from whom or maybe I should have started with was there a Feeling the SDS was an elite
00:14:32 elite unit not in not as far as I'm concerned no it was another unit of special branch and you worked there in the same way you would work on any other Squad well the ways of working were profoundly
00:14:43 ways of working were profoundly different weren't they because yes SDS used the undercover tactic yes they were
00:14:56 used the undercover tactic yes they were and there was a sense that officers were making considerable sacrificers to live undercover for many years for the sake of the
00:15:04 of the job yeah yes and was there a sense that the intelligence produ product was valuable
00:15:07 valuable definitely did that not engender a sense that it was an exceptional
00:15:20 unit exceptional in terms of the work that they were doing yes an elite in the sense that only a certain type of person was going to be able to do undercover
00:15:38 was going to be able to do undercover work I wouldn't describe it as Elite at all you have described it as not being bound by the ordinary
00:15:49 rules was that sense in part because of the close working relationship with the security
00:15:54 security service not bound by the ordinary rules I would take to mean that the very nature of the job they were doing could not be done by a police officer observing every single rule and
00:16:07 observing every single rule and regulation that he or she may have to abide
00:16:12 abide by could we have your witness statement up please it's
00:16:17 74945 page
00:16:27 61 we have paragraph 199
00:16:36 please you've written here my understanding of the legal and Regulatory framework in which the SDS operated was that the SDS concept was operating outside the rules and Bounds
00:16:49 operating outside the rules and Bounds of normal policing in the first instance albeit we had Authority from the home office to do so I was not aware of
00:17:01 office to do so I was not aware of specific rules governing the conduct of uos could you help ERS with the nature of the authority from the home
00:17:16 office I don't think I can because I don't ever remember seeing it a specific Authority for us to operate an undercover Squad I have not
00:17:27 seen where do you get what is the basis for your evidence then
00:17:32 I don't understand your question what was the
00:17:37 was the authority well the authority Came From Within special
00:17:50 Within special branch and as I understood it from home office to whom a report was sent every year to allow us to continue the operation and who told you that the authority came from the home office I don't know was it an
00:18:04 home office I don't know was it an assumption on your part it may well have been and you never saw any written document not that I can recall was there anything to delineate which rules and Bounds of
00:18:17 delineate which rules and Bounds of normal policing applied and which did not not as far as I can remember what was your understanding of which rules applied and which did not
00:18:31 when I went to SDS I had no knowledge of it I had no understanding of how it worked and I had to learn on the job I do not sincerely believe there was any
00:18:45 do not sincerely believe there was any written document that said what we were and weren't allowed to do so when decisions fa to be made by you
00:18:56 when decisions fa to be made by you first as a Di and then as a DCI within the
00:18:57 the SDS what approach did you take Visa
00:19:07 rules we would have we would have worked on our experience um as a DI I would have obviously worked with the Chief Inspector there in conjunction maybe with the officer
00:19:18 with the officer concerned uh depending what the situation was I think I understand what you're getting at we would
00:19:32 getting at we would come to a decision as to whether or not a
00:19:33 a particular operation could proceed now you just told us a moment ago that you didn't have any experience or training so in the early days at
00:19:51 or training so in the early days at least that must have been very difficult for you it was because I had no prior experience to fall back
00:20:00 on would it be fair to say you were left to make it up as you went along no because I had a DCI and we also had a chief superintendent who ran the squad and they could be used for consultation
00:20:14 they could be used for consultation purposes as well so we did not make it up as we went along you were informed by previous practice
00:20:26 practice correct but without the benefit of any rules or guidance the only rules or guidance we would have used would have been those that applied
00:20:37 used would have been those that applied to policing generally um they are not to commit a crime that type of thing but your belief was that you the unit operated outside the rules and Bounds of normal
00:20:50 outside the rules and Bounds of normal pleasing slightly outside them but there were rules such as I've just described which by which they had to abide
00:21:03 you had had by the time you became the detective inspector many years in special Branch hadn't you yes but no prior service in C
00:21:18 Squad incorrect I worked on C Squad in the early
00:21:24 early 80s before you joined the SDS oh yes I see how long four
00:21:33 I think about 2 years before I passed the promotion examination and got moved to uniform policing and on which desk the rightwing
00:21:51 desk recruitment of undercover police officers you've described recruitment as being on a wing in a
00:22:04 being on a wing in a prayer is that a phrase you would stand by I probably wouldn't use the phrase now but looking back on it the way it was done when I first went there one could attribute that phrase to
00:22:18 could attribute that phrase to it we'll come in due course to the report you wrote which amongst other
00:22:32 report you wrote which amongst other things did bring some procedure and um order to recruitment but is it right that the officers who you
00:22:36 who you recruited hn 87 hn5 and hn 25 were all recruited before your paper uh proposing revision to the
00:22:51 your paper uh proposing revision to the recruitment process now you've referred to them by their um nominal there we need to be very careful with hn 87 and hn 5 to respect the Restriction orders hn5 is John
00:23:10 hn5 is John D right I've got that one what the other one was hn 87 87 yes and 25 yes and
00:23:16 25 yes so recruited in a way that you certainly have described in the past as on a wing and a prayer yes in terms of the way was
00:23:42 done did you see in those cases where the officer was married or had a partner their wife or partner
00:23:47 partner yes um when you met them was that before or after they had been recruited into the unit before the decision had been made and what was the purpose of seeing them first ly to look at their home
00:24:01 them first ly to look at their home circumstances and more importantly to speak to the wife or partner and to make sure that they were fully supportive of what their partner was
00:24:17 supportive of what their partner was proposing to do and to explain to them how it may affect their whole
00:24:23 lifestyle anything
00:24:31 else well we would look at the home circumstances make sure they in if they were married they were happily married uh that type of thing I I can't think of a all the things we went through at the time but we would have been as thorough as we could was there any
00:24:43 as we could was there any consideration or discussion about the welfare of the UC and whether the wife
00:24:57 welfare of the UC and whether the wife or partner might be well placed to draw to your attention any difficulties the officer was having I can't specifically remember asking
00:25:08 I can't specifically remember asking that question but it may well have come out was there a feeling uh that a married
00:25:09 married officer uh would be less likely to become sexually involved with members of the public in their undercover identity that was always the
00:25:21 identity that was always the premise I'm not sure I totally agreed with it but that would depend on knowing the officer that you are recruiting and where did you get the premise
00:25:39 from it was my own thoughts really because when I was in a position as the DCI to recruit people I knew of a few officers even though
00:25:49 though single and even though my commander was very much against it I knew they would be good officers and I think at the end
00:26:00 be good officers and I think at the end of the day I was proved right was their discussion as to whether or not being married had a deterrent effect on sexual activity
00:26:12 activity undercover that I think was the premise being married would give the officer a reason to go back to their own homes and to their own families I'm not sure that the sexual
00:26:28 families I'm not sure that the sexual aspect of it was ever openly discussed but of course that would have been a
00:26:38 consideration I'm getting a sense that people are thinking about the question of sexual activity but on your evidence I'm not saying very much did you get the feeling that other
00:26:52 much did you get the feeling that other people might be thinking in the same way that you
00:27:01 were what do you mean by other people other people thought that being married might mean there was for certain men at least less like they will be less likely to get involved sexually with
00:27:12 with activists I can't I I can't answer that question what other people would think I don't
00:27:23 don't know and is it your evidence you didn't discuss that aspect of the requirement to be married with anybody sorry I don't understand well put it another way when you are seeking to persuade your
00:27:34 to persuade your superiors to recruit single men yes which you did more than once didn't you yes was whether or not to use a phrase
00:27:50 yes was whether or not to use a phrase you've used in a different part of your witness statement they were going to keep it in their trousers a part of that discussion
00:28:01 I cannot recall that specifically it would have been again a consideration a consideration you have told us but was it was it a consideration for your
00:28:13 your superiors I think that would have been a major consideration for my senior officers yes and what makes you say
00:28:27 that because I don't think they would have wanted the the problems that would attach themselves to officers having um sexual
00:28:43 themselves to officers having um sexual relationships with um other people that they'd met in the course of their job did they articulate articulate that concern to you in any way at all not specifically no so are you able to tell us whether
00:28:54 no so are you able to tell us whether they really were concerned about that issue or whether they simply couldn't care I can't tell you what they thought and where on the scale were
00:29:14 you it's something that didn't really come up and I will say why because if I had asked any officer to their face whether they were having any sort of sexual
00:29:26 liason I would have been blanked straight away or there would have been a total denial and why would that have been because if they had admitted it to me I would have looked at it very seriously
00:29:39 would have looked at it very seriously which may well have ended their career on
00:29:44 on SDs so can we take it that your evidence is that people knew full well that sexual activity undercover with members of the public was very
00:29:55 wrong I don't know what they thought but um
00:30:03 it's difficult for me to answer that question because it just didn't occur in the time I was there was there any any ever any discussion at all during your years with the
00:30:13 the SDS about the topic of sexual relationships
00:30:27 undercover to be honest no I can't recall a conversation in the office about that no one ever talked about the
00:30:34 about the Temptations
00:30:41 no the self-restraint that was required no that sort of information they would have kept
00:30:52 themselves we'll be coming back to this topic a little bit later but for the
00:31:07 topic a little bit later but for the moment I'm going to move on to deceased children's IDE entities and the extent to which they were used uh by SDS officers to build their Legends
00:31:13 Legends uh we've talked about hn 87 hn 25 and John
00:31:17 John D they all built their Legends on your watch didn't they yes and did hn 90 hang on
00:31:34 I believe that officer
00:31:49 did and we can I ask did these officers check whether the parents of the deceased child involved in each case was still alive I don't don't
00:32:05 alive I don't don't know were they supposed to do that there was no instruction to the best of my knowledge that they should do
00:32:23 it if they were still alive and if the target group decided to investigate finding them would be a possibility wouldn't it it could be and so in terms of the security of the
00:32:36 the legend whether the parents were alive or dead I mean this is a ghoulish subject but it was a relevant Factor wasn't it it could have been a relevant factor and are you sure that
00:32:48 and are you sure that it wasn't one that was acted upon on your watch not as far as I
00:33:01 your watch not as far as I know did the officers check whether or not the family we're still at the address on the birth certificate I don't know that again is a relevant consideration to how secure the legend would be isn't it it could
00:33:15 would be isn't it it could be and also from the point of view of the
00:33:21 the family the risk of them being confronted with what would be a very unwelcome occurrence a possibility and is it your evidence that that
00:33:34 and is it your evidence that that consideration was not taken into account not as far as I
00:33:48 know your witness statement tells us that the age of the child had to be similar to the real age of the
00:33:50 the officer we have seen a number of instances for example Bob Lambert of officers adopting the
00:34:02 of officers adopting the identities of people who were several years younger than they actually were were you were aware of that
00:34:14 that no was there any discussion as to whether it would be better to pretend to be somebody younger or older no not that I can
00:34:28 older no not that I can recall that decision would have been left to the individual officer
00:34:38 concerned are you do you know whether or not that's something that was discussed between the officers it might have been I wouldn't have been privileged to it did you ever hear a suggestion that making oneself appear
00:34:57 suggestion that making oneself appear several years younger would assist when it came to attracting members of the opposite sex
00:35:05 no was the question as to how many deceased children's identities an undercover officer could use ever considered no they would research
00:35:22 one was that ever said in terms or was that just your expectation the instructions they get they were given and they first joined
00:35:34 they were given and they first joined were to research and be happy with one identity and if the target group the officer was deployed into itself used the
00:35:42 the practice perhaps so they could give a false name and address to police upon arrest what happened
00:35:58 then I don't know John
00:36:03 John D used a second name of a deceased child's
00:36:11 child's identity he deployed it upon arrest after your time at the pole tax riots did you know uh that he had a second false identity up his sleeve for that purpose no I did not if you had
00:36:27 no I did not if you had known is it something you would have condoned or condemned I'd have condemned it straight away why because that that is
00:36:42 that that is not the premise under which he was employed on SDs he was employed to use one undercover identity but if he had said he needed to
00:36:55 identity but if he had said he needed to do it because the rest of his group were doing it and it was necessary for his cover and for operational security I would have needed to go into that with him in great detail beforehand then that decision might even have been referred
00:37:08 have been referred upwards on the question of the chain of
00:37:19 command you've said in your witness statement I cannot say that senior officers in the chain of command definitely knew about this practice but I think that in basic terms they would know how it was done could you help us with the the basis for giving that
00:37:35 with the the basis for giving that evidence are you are you talking about researching an identity
00:37:46 researching an identity yes well it was always the practice when I first went to SDS that that was the way you researched your identity and then you developed
00:37:58 then you developed it my question is directed at who in the chain of command above you knew that that was the practice used by the
00:38:00 by the SDS I don't know you'd have to ask them I presume they would have had an inkling of it I don't think they concerned themselves too much with it it was a
00:38:11 themselves too much with it it was a practice that had been established since the formation of the unit when senior officers came to visit did you tell them that that's what you did in those respects I don't think so you're
00:38:26 respects I don't think so you're referring to senior officers say of assistant commissioner rank yes commissioner rank I don't think we would have um discussed that um particular aspect of it they would have been more interested in what
00:38:41 would have been more interested in what the officers were doing what groups they were looking at what the benefit was to the Metropolitan Police did you withhold that practice from them deliberately no
00:38:52 deliberately no no did they ever ask how cover identities were manufactured to the best of my memory knowledge
00:39:06 of my memory knowledge no did you ever address your mind to whether adopting a decease child's identity was
00:39:11 legal sadly I did not did you ever seek reassurance from your managers that the practice was
00:39:24 managers that the practice was appropriate no bearing in mind this is 37 38 years ago it was a established practice then and I saw no reason to question it did you ever review the practice
00:39:40 practice no were you aware that in the 1970s an SDS undercover officer was confronted with the death certificate of the child whose identity he had used no an officer called Rick
00:39:51 used no an officer called Rick Clark I know the officer you're talking about but I did I don't know about that going to read to you an apology made by
00:40:03 going to read to you an apology made by the commissioner at the start of um this phase of the inquiry start of this trch of the inquiry I should say going to ask you whether you align yourself with it
00:40:17 you whether you align yourself with it or not the MPS accepts that the managers of the SDS fail to recognize the hurt distress and anger that the use of deceased children's identities would cause the families of the children and the public concern that would result if the practice had been revealed it
00:40:34 the practice had been revealed it apologizes unreservedly to the families for this it also wishes to acknowledge that their distress will have been compounded by the Revelation that some SDS officers behaved indefensibly while using their children's names as acknowledged elsewhere in this opening
00:40:53 statement as a practice looking at it now I don't condone it but
00:40:58 it but going back as I've said to the
00:41:09 going back as I've said to the 1980s it was established practice then I didn't consider the wider ramifications of such a
00:41:18 system you came into a machine that was already
00:41:19 already operating worked on it for a couple of years and then moved on is that a fair
00:41:31 years and then moved on is that a fair way of summarizing it I worked on it for two and a half years I made some recommendations for changes during my tenure there I had difficulties with certainly one particular officer which will no
00:41:51 one particular officer which will no doubt come out later on um and I hope that when I left it I left it in a slightly better shape than when I started there in terms of the administration of it and when when you come conducted that review did you
00:42:03 come conducted that review did you consider whether or not the practice of using deceased children's identities should itself be reviewed I honestly cannot remember what recommendations I put in that now I'm not sure that that came into it yeah there's not there's nothing in there
00:42:17 there's not there's nothing in there about that is that because you didn't address your mind to
00:42:24 it I didn't address that aspect of it perhaps I should have done um but there were other fact facts at the time which probably required a more urgent
00:42:37 probably required a more urgent review and you simply discharged your terms of reference I did targeting please now Mr Docker um there is a reference in the
00:42:55 there is a reference in the 1985 SDS annual report I appreciate the year before you joined saying that an official from the home office
00:43:06 official from the home office uh Michael Partridge had an interest in anti-fascist action do you have any knowledge of that no I was there ever to your knowledge any influence from the home office as to the
00:43:23 influence from the home office as to the choice of the sdss targets as far as I'm concerned none whatsoever
00:43:38 I've been asked if you could lean forward a bit closer to the microphones please sorry or or wheel yourself forward if you're comfortable sitting like that thank you uh you say in your witness statement that targeting was the chief
00:43:50 chief superintendent decision and late at the end of your time in the SGS we see some
00:44:06 end of your time in the SGS we see some written documents about that my question is was it always a case throughout your time in the SDs that a new Target was ultimately selected by the chief superintendent and not by the SDS itself not always the majority of
00:44:19 itself not always the majority of times the targeting would have been selected by the chief superintendent of the relevant Squad but based on
00:44:33 the relevant Squad but based on information from their desk officers but there will be will have been occasions when SDS officers came up with a particular grouping somewhere that they might think is of interest and in those
00:44:48 might think is of interest and in those cases we would merely take that back to the squad Chief and if the squad Chief agreed then we would move to do something in respect of that what was your role in the process
00:45:02 well my role in that process was merely acting as the middleman I really didn't have any influence over targeting unless with experience I could come up with some ideas of my
00:45:19 some ideas of my own did you have a view as to whether or not the Socialist Workers Party was an appropriate
00:45:25 Target I considered that the Socialist Workers Party was a Target because the grouping would always jump onto the back of any issue that was current and
00:45:39 of any issue that was current and therefore they had an ability to ferment public disorder which is one of our primary
00:45:46 primary roles and did you have a view as to targeting animal rights activists well for the same reason animal rights activists were very active in
00:46:03 were very active in hunt saering in placing devices Etc and they needed to be targeted did you look as animal rights at animal rights activity as homogeneous or
00:46:25 nuanced I'm sorry I don't understand did you draw a distinction between someone who was handing out leaflets outside McDonald's um um or campaigning for veganism on the one end of the scale to someone who was planting an improvised
00:46:39 someone who was planting an improvised incend device in a department store on the other of course I did of course I did and what were your views as to the
00:46:52 did and what were your views as to the relative uh need for intelligence about them what you have to understand as an undercover officer you need probably a year before you will become at all productive and in the start of that year that's exactly the way you start leafleting that type
00:47:08 the way you start leafleting that type of thing and only when you get more into an organization do you become effective at obtaining some intelligence from them so the leafleting the small demonstrations yes they were important
00:47:27 demonstrations yes they were important but not as important as the other end of the spectrum that you've mentioned and what was the importance of the small leafleting at a small
00:47:33 demonstration if they had a propensity to cause minor public disorder then obviously there would have been leoism with local police
00:47:46 police uh most of the time it would not really have bothered us but it's it's um as I said it's a weigh in for an SDS officer and therefore it's
00:48:07 important can I come to to a specific uh matter now this is the arrest and prosecution of an activist Steve Curtis at a demonstration in 1986 in grova square following the bombing by the United States Air Force of
00:48:20 of Libya uh you were shown in your pack some reports about this we know that Mr Curtis was arrested we know that Bob Lambert was present Mr Lambert and two
00:48:39 Lambert was present Mr Lambert and two others were asked to give evidence for the
00:48:48 the defense our understanding is Mr Curtis was prosecuted and convicted at first instance and then appealed both conviction and sentence he was unsuccessful
00:49:01 uh at appealing his conviction but he was successful in getting a reduction to his s his sentence there are some documents which you've been shown which show a discussion between managers which ended up with commander
00:49:16 ended up with commander felen stating that Mr Lambert should not give evidence on Mr Curtis's behalf both because of the risk
00:49:28 Curtis's behalf both because of the risk that he might have to purger himself and because because it might not help his cover if he was not supportive do you remember the
00:49:40 supportive do you remember the case not really I have been reminded of it when I went through the paperwork about a year ago and I have a memory
00:49:51 about a year ago and I have a memory bearing in mind I was the DI at the time this the initial decision was taken by the
00:49:52 the DCI Tony
00:49:54 DCI Tony white that um accorded with the Commander's decision as well that he should not give evidence in the case I had no specific role in that
00:50:07 had no specific role in that decision my interest is whether you can
00:50:16 recall whatever Commander felin's advice did Mr Lambert in fact give evidence as a defense witness I have no
00:50:34 idea you tell us in in your witness statement that if an officer committed a minor offense the management advice would
00:50:42 would be uh that he should go through the criminal process in his own name regardless of plea can you help us with up to what level of severity of criminal offense did that practice apply
00:51:01 there is nothing I can recall that was written down which gave me a particular level to aim at we're back to you being left to some extent to your own devices
00:51:17 left to some extent to your own devices and past practice in practice what up to what level of gravity of criminal [Music]
00:51:25 [Music] offense were officers left to go through the courts in their cover identities very
00:51:27 very offenses obstructing the footway anything like that which might result in a small fine and nothing else that is
00:51:38 a small fine and nothing else that is the sort of guideline that I was told we could work on it would of course have been reported up the chain as usual but um no more than that anything that went beyond that um
00:51:50 beyond that um would would not have been allowed and would have merited uh more investigation you said you were told in the course of that answer who told you well probably
00:52:04 that answer who told you well probably DCI I can't remember you know do we do we allow these things this thing to happen this this small demo to happen he's been arrested right fine okay nothing serious let it carry
00:52:16 nothing serious let it carry on that is a decision isn't it that
00:52:28 on that is a decision isn't it that requires the officer to appear before a court mhm in a false identity correct the court is misled correct that's wrong isn't it yes did you address your mind to it at the time no should you have done
00:52:44 no should you have done maybe you should have done shouldn't you maybe I should have done but we're talking a long time ago and that was pra the established practice then did anybody ever express any qualms about that practice to you no
00:52:59 about that practice to you no either above you in the chain of command or below you
00:53:06 no can we have up now please and it's a different topic 742
00:53:29 720 uh this is a report about the animal Liberation Front it's dated the 10th of October
00:53:44 1986 uh I'm interested in paragraphs 2 and three you will see from paragraph two that this is a report about the printing of leaflets and in paragraph three that a printer is going to print some McDonald's fact sheet
00:54:03 McDonald's fact sheet for London Green Piece which are recorded and described as a clearly
00:54:10 clearly lialis publication certain to be of interest to the lawyers of this worldwide
00:54:13 worldwide hamburger
00:54:18 hamburger chain can you help us with what was done with this
00:54:28 intelligence I have only the vaguest recollection of this I think this is fairly early on of my tenure in SDS
00:54:38 SDS um I do not know what happened after that report was submitted was there contact between special branch and
00:54:49 special branch and McDonald's as far as I'm concerned no direct contact at all I'm not asking about you personally I'm asking about special branch I don't know there was a campaign running
00:55:01 know there was a campaign running against McDonald's wasn't there yes I believe so and that didn't that wasn't just limited to leafleting outside their premises there were instances of
00:55:13 premises there were instances of criminal damage weren't there apparently so
00:55:18 so yes are do you know whether McDonald's was seeking the assistance of the police to deal with this criminality working on the SDS I would have had no knowledge about that
00:55:34 knowledge about that whatsoever was there any direction feeding down to you that this was something of importance not that I can remember was there any feedback for the reporting on McDonald's I don't
00:55:46 McDonald's I don't know do you know a man called or did you know a man called Sid Nicholson who worked for security in McDonald's but had been a police officer officer in the metropolitan police no I
00:56:04 officer in the metropolitan police no I don't are you sure about that I'm pretty certain a man called man called Terry Carl
00:56:13 no can you ever recall being given any assistance by McDonald's for the purposes of policing no not at
00:56:22 all will you ever aware of
00:56:28 of people private detect Ives infiltrating London Green
00:56:38 Piece paid for by McDonald's or anybody else I can't remember anything about that does that mean it might have happened and You' forgotten it well it might have done but I don't remember
00:56:56 it the inquiries had some evidence uh to the effect that McDonald's knew that special Branch had a source within London
00:57:00 London Greenpeace do you know anything about that
00:57:19 no do you know whether and if so to what extent Bob Lambert participated in the creation of the McDonald's fact sheet that is the subject of this report I have no knowledge about that whatsoever how closely did you keep in touch with Bob Lambert's
00:57:32 deployment if I'm correct in what I said that this is a report dated in October 1986 yeah early early relatively early days 6 months in early days um I would not have had I don't think a lot of
00:57:44 not have had I don't think a lot of input into this that would have probably been through the GCI who would have been much more familiar with what was going on in terms of the officers deployment
00:57:56 on in terms of the officers deployment in London Green Piece were you talking to Bob Lambert at the meetings in the safe house well I must have done and one of the things you would want to know was how he was getting on probably what he was
00:58:08 was doing would you at the time have known whether or not he was writing a leaflet well I I have no memory of that whatsoever and I suspect if ID asked him he'd have said he wasn't writing it
00:58:19 he'd have said he wasn't writing it anyway could you help with you have no memory of that but you do have memories of other things or whether your me memory generally of the level of communication is very vague you're
00:58:30 communication is very vague you're asking me about meetings which we used to have twice a week which I had for two and a half years with undercover officers and you ask me if I've got a
00:58:42 officers and you ask me if I've got a memory about early on in my career there no I
00:58:44 no I haven't can you help us in general terms with the level of granularity with which you kept up with undercover officers deployments
00:58:59 deployments well in general at the meetings twice a week we would go through each officer what they'd been doing what they were up to what was coming up looking for things that may be more important
00:59:12 for things that may be more important than others that type of thing we would need we would need to have a comprehensive review that was the dci's job going through everything that was happening did the
00:59:25 happening did the phrase or if you can't remember would the phrase clearly lialis have leapt off the page to
00:59:36 you it might have done at the time I can't recall it that much otherwise something would have retained itself in
00:59:47 something would have retained itself in my brain but it that doesn't ring a bell I have seen this report before probably When I Was preparing my
00:59:53 statement can you help us with whether you did anything about it
01:00:00 personally I cannot remember having any input into it at all would you for example have spoken to Bob Lambert to
01:00:12 example have spoken to Bob Lambert to establish whether or not he was involved in a clearly lious public said that would probably been Tony white the DCI
01:00:24 would probably been Tony white the DCI who would have taken that in the first instance could we take that down now please can we go to 740
01:00:35 393 now we're moving on in time now to the 13th of March 1987 just under a year after uh you joined the SDS if we could go to the next page
01:00:46 SDS if we could go to the next page please this is a report dated as I've said the 13th of March it's a it's entitled a Socialist Workers Party but it has quite a lot of content about the Trevor monaville camp
01:00:58 Trevor monaville camp campaign can I take it that you would have been familiar with the Trevor monaville campaign at the material
01:01:09 monaville campaign at the material time I might have been yes could we look at paragraph two first of
01:01:18 all I'll give you a moment uh to read that but what I'm going to ask you is would it be a fair summary that this is a report of an SW P activist being appointed to the Trevor monoville
01:01:30 appointed to the Trevor monoville campaigns organizing committee but once there having little influence and being rather
01:01:48 isolated yes I can see that if we go to paragraph
01:02:00 three again I'll give you a moment to read it but would a fair summary be that Trevor's parents were focused in their aims and committed to Legal Avenues of
01:02:14 protest that's what the report says
01:02:21 Y and if we go now to paragraph four
01:02:34 give you a moment uh but the question will be would it be fair to summarize this as the campaign was likely to broaden into a campaign against police
01:02:45 broaden into a campaign against police racism violence and oppression Contra to the wishes of the
01:02:53 family that's the indication coming from this paragraph paragraph five
01:03:12 is that to the effect that the S WP will continue to support the Trevor monoville campaign and hold as well their own independent swp
01:03:19 events
01:03:26 mhm taken you through that report um so that I can ask her some questions to explore why this report was made why report on a lawful
01:03:45 campaign I would view it as a report on what the Socialist Workers party's attitude is to that Campaign which would of course be of
01:03:56 Campaign which would of course be of interest can see that but you also see from that report don't you that the S swp is a getting
01:04:07 nowhere that may be so then and be in so far as it is
01:04:18 then and be in so far as it is forecast to get somewhere by broadening the campaign into one against police racism violence and oppression it's a free country and as long as it's conduct Ed lawfully those are
01:04:28 are legitimate subjects of
01:04:33 complaint perhaps yes and
01:04:40 protest and there's nothing to suggest that the swp is doing anything here that's going to interfere with public order or be unlawful is there not at that
01:04:51 that point and this is very sensitive territory isn't it the police reporting on people who might be about to campaign
01:05:06 on people who might be about to campaign against the police and uh a black racial Justice
01:05:12 campaign I'm not sure that is the point of the report I still think it is the Socialist Workers party's attitude to
01:05:26 Socialist Workers party's attitude to this my question was slightly different this is very sensitive territory isn't it it would have been then yes it probably would be now was any thought given to the proportionality of this kind of
01:05:40 reporting
01:05:49 no was any thought given to
01:05:55 given to what a compromise of the undercover officer
01:05:59 officer reporting on the Trevor monaville campaign might have led to in terms of community relations sorry I'm not quite with you there if it had been discovered that an undercover police officer was reporting
01:06:15 undercover police officer was reporting on the on a black Justice campaign right um that could have caused a lot of
01:06:26 um that could have caused a lot of trouble couldn't it it could public order yes trouble yes and serious tensions within police community relations it could have done precisely the things that were the sensitive
01:06:41 territory was any thought given to that as far as I can my honest answer is
01:06:52 that as far as I can my honest answer is no the report would have been brought in dealt with moved on to the relevant Squad and processed from there was any thought given to Mr and Mrs
01:07:07 Mrs monoville it's very difficult for me to answer that now but as far as I I can say the answer would be no was it felt that black people were particularly vulnerable to extremists I don't
01:07:23 know well what was the thinking about the swp
01:07:25 the swp Visa the Trevor monoville
01:07:34 campaign I don't think I can answer that question because I I I I don't know well what was the concern about what they might
01:07:45 what they might do the swp yes well it could lead to public disorder it's by hijacking hijacking another campaign that's what they do
01:08:06 couldn't Mr and Mrs monaville be left to deal with those who wanted to support their campaign
01:08:17 themselves I think with the greatest respect to them they're a byproduct of this
01:08:18 this report I don't think anybody was particularly interested in policing terms of Mr and Mrs
01:08:37 monaville was any consideration given as to whether or not they may be perfectly capable of dealing with all sorts of people with all sorts of motives and
01:08:48 people with all sorts of motives and agendas approaching them about their campaign you asked if there was consideration given as far as I'm concerned I'm sad to say the the answer was
01:09:08 no could we take that uh down now please can we have up 747
01:09:17 694 darling back slightly in time this is December
01:09:26 1986 if we could go to the next page so to page three please there's a report here 2nd of December 1986 it's about an individual a woman who we are calling Lizzy if you need to
01:09:41 who we are calling Lizzy if you need to remind yourself as to who she is please do so but we're respecting her privacy and she's
01:09:43 and she's Anonymous it says Lizzy a former member of the South London animal movement slam has recently moved from privacy to
01:09:56 has recently moved from privacy to privacy this house is being bought on a joint mortgage with her policeman boyfriend blank who shares the accommodation with her the subject is a close friend of animal Liberation Front press officer Robin Lane and his girlfriend Tanya and she maintains
01:10:12 girlfriend Tanya and she maintains regular contact with both of them lay and Tanya also spend a considerable amount of time at the home of Lizzy although none is believed to be actively
01:10:24 although none is believed to be actively involved in illegal direct action at the present
01:10:31 time you familiar with who Robin Lane was at the material time vely yes and his connections to as animal Alf press officer and connections with the ALF
01:10:44 officer and connections with the ALF support group yes a person of interest a special Branch
01:10:54 yes can you help us with the circumstances in in which the SDS was able to obtain this
01:11:01 intelligence obviously from an undercover officer did you know that Mike chitty was spending a lot of time with Lizzy and Tanya and
01:11:21 Lane no Mike chitty was finishing up when I first went onto SDS um I didn't really know much about him I never learned much about him so the answer to your question is no I didn't would you ever when you got
01:11:39 didn't would you ever when you got intelligence like this have have been inquisitive about how they' got it
01:11:46 no the inquiry has heard evidence to the effect that chitty Lizzy laye and Tanya not only spent a lot of time together uh but chitty and Lizzy had a sexual
01:12:00 but chitty and Lizzy had a sexual relationship did you know anything about that nothing whatsoever did you go ever get any inkling that something might be
01:12:14 get any inkling that something might be going on no are you sure about that well I can't remember anything about it as I said chitty was at the end of his um deployment coming to the end of it then um he was not an easy man to talk to not
01:12:25 um he was not an easy man to talk to not very open and he certainly wouldn't have mentioned anything to me about
01:12:36 this did that make it more or less likely that you spoke to him about how he got his intelligence I wouldn't have asked him how he got his
01:12:47 intelligence can we take that document down now please and can we have up
01:12:53 526 78
01:13:06 9 thank you could we go to uh that you will see first of all that this is about Mr Lambert's arrest in ham it's at a a large hunt
01:13:20 in ham it's at a a large hunt sabotage event if we could go to the through to 4 please
01:13:30 and if we could expand the report thanks it's 3rd of March 1987
01:13:39 1987 um The Narrative about the arrest starts at paragraph 4 can I leave you to read perhaps and we could have it expanded to make it easier paragraphs 4- 6
01:14:21 before we move over the page um I'd like you to note in particular what it says about your own role and all also what it says about detective Sergeant Lambert um being able to spend his time most
01:14:36 being able to spend his time most usefully in a cell with other activists could we go over the page seven
01:14:57 please can you help us with your recollection of of events on the day and in particular the role you
01:15:06 played when an SDS officer goes outside of the Metropolitan Police it is it was normal practice to send someone from the the office as we call it as cover should they come into police
01:15:18 they come into police custody that on this occasion was my
01:15:30 role I was was there at the police station when he was arrested I saw him being brought in and I then made inquiries as to what was going to be the outcome it was decided by Sussex police
01:15:42 outcome it was decided by Sussex police that he would not be charged but he was held in a Cell for a couple of hours and then released how were you dressed
01:15:54 dressed casually uh activist casually or police officer casually I couldn't dress up like an activist I didn't look like them I was just casually
01:16:06 dressed who did you speak to in the police station oh
01:16:11 oh probably if he was there the DI special Branch if he was there maybe the DCI if
01:16:23 Branch if he was there maybe the DCI if he was there I cannot be specific as to who it was and what did you tell them about who you were well they knew who I was I was a DI from special branch and I would have told them that we had an informant within the grouping
01:16:38 we had an informant within the grouping down there but not an undercover police officer I didn't use those terms
01:16:49 no then when I found out that there was be no charges I saw no reason to disclose our interest any further [Music]
01:17:02 [Music] are you sure that you did actually speak to a police officer or did you stand completely out of the way no because I wouldn't have got into the police station unless I'd spoken to somebody and told them why I was there in general
01:17:19 terms how does app square with the policy of allowing your officers to maintain their
01:17:31 officers to maintain their identities a upon arrest and B through minor criminal
01:17:45 charges well DS Lambert maintained his cover he was arrested yes but he wasn't charged with any
01:17:50 with any offense did you identify Lambert as your informant no no no how did Lambert uses incarceration to good
01:17:58 good purpose my understanding is he was sconed in a cell with other activists from I think the Brighton area and they spent a couple of hours
01:18:10 spent a couple of hours talking which gives rise to my last paragraph there that he had obtained some very useful intelligence what was
01:18:21 some very useful intelligence what was the useful intelligence I can't remember now your witness statement says s Illy to your oral evidence concerned Brighton and Southwest groups of the AL if he' elicited something particularly
01:18:36 he' elicited something particularly important it would have been recorded wouldn't it
01:18:47 presumably was there an element of trying to put a positive spin on this report when your officer had been
01:19:00 arrested I don't regard what I said in that report CAU as spinning anything he had done an excellent job there and he deserved the Accolade I've gave given him there that he'd obtained some very useful intelligence what was excellent about getting arrested nothing there's nothing
01:19:14 arrested nothing there's nothing excellent about getting arrested I wasn't there when he was arrested the fact that he had been with these people and got this intelligence was was the accolade
01:19:38 can we uh go back to the first page please and expand it so that we can see the file reference um y one of the most esoteric questions I'm going to ask you today is about file reference
01:19:50 reference 588 SL unreg SL 69 for
01:20:01 for E this was a file for SDS matters
01:20:08 matters yes was it a file upon which events like the arrest of an officer would be
01:20:18 documented my understanding on this and I I may be wrong but my understanding is this particular report would have been located on that
01:20:32 would have been located on that paperwork but then the substance of it would have been produced to go onto other registered s SP
01:20:37 files so what was kept on 588 unreg 694
01:20:53 e again I cannot be sure but I think you will find they are what you call policy files
01:21:00 and would Adverse Events be amongst the things that would go on that file if an officer had misconducted himself or got involved in a traffic accident Poss that sort of thing
01:21:14 sort of thing possibly did you look at that file when you joined the SDS no no they were kept over at Scotland Yard I wouldn't have had access
01:21:26 Scotland Yard I wouldn't have had access to them then I could have looked at them I suppose if I wanted to but um they were General
01:21:33 files wouldn't it have been a good idea to look at the SDS policy file to familiarize yourself with the unit you were going to manage well I wouldn't have had access to it until I got there
01:21:45 to it until I got there and I was learning on the job there as I've described before um I'm not sure a policy file would have been of great help to me at that time can we take it
01:22:03 help to me at that time can we take it then that you probably didn't look at it thank you could we take that down now please I I I want to ask you some questions
01:22:04 questions next about the approach to animal rights
01:22:19 deployment would it be fair to say that top of your agenda were the more serious crimes that were being committed in the name of animal
01:22:26 rights the first first point I would make is that I didn't have the agenda the agenda was held by the squad Chief where animal rights were dealt with which I suspect was C Squad at the time
01:22:46 which I suspect was C Squad at the time um to quantify that answer yes the more serious offenses that animal rights activists would come out with would be top of the list
01:22:54 just to be clear what was your
01:23:01 responsibility in providing intelligence that met the customer needs in this case the animal rights desk on
01:23:16 cquad my responsibility was to make sure that the officers were targeted the officers were targeted at the groupings that
01:23:28 that the chief superintendent of the squad required and the officers conducted themselves properly and service the intelligence requirement
01:23:47 yes to Target the serious crimes being committed in the name of animal rights using an undercover officer meant the officer would have to prove themselves to get close wouldn't they one would assume so they were using a
01:24:04 one would assume so they were using a cell structure weren't they yes and that even that might be a little ground for what was happening in practice people were encouraged incited to go out and commit crimes in the name of animal
01:24:16 of animal rights weren't they sometimes entirely on their own other times in small groups so I understand
01:24:36 to get into a group that was committing crimes as serious as planting improvised incendiary devices in department stores and so on would require building up a considerable
01:24:48 require building up a considerable amount of trust wouldn't it I would assume sir in the words of one of our Witnesses says you'd have to show you were up for it yes and they would have
01:25:02 it yes and they would have to feel that they could trust the
01:25:17 to feel that they could trust the officer a to get involved in a serious conspiracy and B to keep their mouth shut
01:25:34 yes that poses a dilemma to the undercover police officer doesn't it oh yes you say that very serious dilemma isn't it not an easy problem no did you ever discuss with your animal rights
01:25:47 discuss with your animal rights uos how they would inv vagle themselves deeply
01:25:48 deeply enough to be accepted on a serious Alf
01:25:59 Enterprise did I discuss it with them how they would do it
01:26:11 no did you discuss with Bob Lambert how he was going about the task of infiltrating the animal rights movement so as to gain intelligence about the
01:26:24 so as to gain intelligence about the AL Bob was already established when I went to the SDS he was a very shrewd man and I would not have discussed like something like that with him because he would have had his own
01:26:35 his own ideas did he ever raise it with you
01:26:46 ideas did he ever raise it with you no would it be fair then to say that you left him entirely to his own devices no no we would see him twice weekly um and in later events um have individual meeting with him to see
01:27:03 individual meeting with him to see exactly what the scenario was um he would also have been reminded about his duties as a police officer and that he was not to commit a crime and Bob knew that full well when
01:27:14 crime and Bob knew that full well when would he have been reminded of that we we we would have told him I can't give you a specific but when we get into serious stuff like that he would have been told
01:27:24 been told again can you help us paint a picture of the sort of topics you were talking to Bob Lambert about before the deams
01:27:41 about before the deams attacks what were you talking to him about at the meetings well there would have been there would have been General chat when everybody's present and then if it needed it afterwards there would have been a specific meeting with him on a
01:27:57 been a specific meeting with him on a specific issue I can't give you do and com on it because I simply don't
01:28:01 remember could we have up please
01:28:24 73597 um this is um a much later document it's from January 1993 it's a report about changes to Performance measures management arrangements and potential for development on the SDS could we go to page 16
01:28:44 please could we have a look at paragraphs 3.8 and 3.9 thank you since those early years arrests have been relatively few and it is to the credit of the officers involved that on many occasions where
01:28:57 involved that on many occasions where where involvement in crime was proferred excuses have been found such as blank to avoid involvement in the actual event
01:29:09 avoid involvement in the actual event the higher risk fields for involvement in crime are anti-fascist activity anarchism and animal rights in the last mentioned
01:29:25 mentioned field in order to gain full acceptance and Trust participation in illegal activities is essential this level is Progressive from inspections of premises where no criminal offenses are actually
01:29:40 criminal offenses are actually committed through the housing of liberated
01:29:45 liberated animals doring and other minor damage to premises through to product contamination arson and the use of improvised explosive
01:29:59 devices these are the words of an official
01:30:04 official report some years as I've said after your time directly managing the SDS was it your view that participation in illegal
01:30:15 in illegal activities was essential for an undercover officer in the animal rights field
01:30:31 by illegal activities I go back to what I said earlier um would for instance a demonstration in the street be dermed illegal in terms of a police officer an undercover officer taking part in it
01:30:40 it uh this was written obviously in regard to later matters but
01:30:52 um I'm not sure exactly from this where you would be able to draw the line and you would have to have a line somewhere yeah well we're rather short of documents drawing lines
01:31:06 rather short of documents drawing lines um well what I'm and you've told us that you weren't provided with any but what I'm interested in is up to what level of gravity did you think it was essential for a
01:31:17 essential for a UC to
01:31:20 UC to participate in criminal activity in order to gain requisite animal rights intelligence minor activity
01:31:32 intelligence minor activity only and if anything else were to be promulgated that would have to be dealt with on a Case by case
01:31:43 with on a Case by case basis and the problem is a little bit of fly posting isn't going to prompt people to tell you they're going to plant an IID in a department store is it
01:32:05 IID in a department store is it nope this document clearly envisages participation in much more serious offenses doesn't it I think it does was that discussion ever
01:32:16 does was that discussion ever had whilst you were managing the SDS no bearing in mind this is what about six years after I left no um again as I've said if there was anything that came up it will be dealt
01:32:32 anything that came up it will be dealt with on an individual basis depending on the circumstances did you discuss the issue with either DCI weight or DCI
01:32:41 McLoud in general terms [Music]
01:32:48 [Music] no is an a compounding problem for the SD d
01:33:02 compounding problem for the SD d s on this issue that it is committed to longterm intelligence gathering operations isn't it correct very different to an evidential deployment in which it's envisaged the
01:33:14 deployment in which it's envisaged the undercover officer will eventually give evidence in court
01:33:24 yes would it be right to say that an additional Dimension that you there or had to deal with as well as having our officers in the right place to get intelligence about
01:33:39 place to get intelligence about senior about serious crime you also want it to be on the basis where they could continue their deployments after the requisite intelligence had been extracted yes we would like them to continue in
01:33:54 post did you consider the challenges of using a longterm intelligence gathering UC to inform a criminal investigation and
01:34:11 prosecution no do you see challenges do I see challenges
01:34:22 yes the primary role of an SDS officer was to provide intelligence
01:34:34 um they were not there to end up in court giving evidence in a criminal case that would not have been their
01:34:44 role did you see ATT tension between seeking that outcome and people being prosecuted for serious
01:34:55 prosecuted for serious offenses um following an investigation informed by such intelligence I'm not sure what you mean by by the word tension
01:34:56 tension but um I didn't see a problem with it because the officers knew that they were not to get heavily involved in
01:35:07 not to get heavily involved in criminality and if they did they realized that that would probably be their end the end of their posting on the
01:35:19 SDS do you think you were equipped training
01:35:23 training wise to manage and undercover police office officer in a long-term intelligence gathering operation who
01:35:37 intelligence gathering operation who went on to provide intelligence that was used to inform a criminal investigation and subsequent prosecution initially no there was no training at all it was on the job training I'm not sure at the end of the
01:35:49 training I'm not sure at the end of the day whether I actually fully understood all the the ramifications of it because as an SDS office or unit you are
01:36:03 isolated and would it be right to say as a special Branch officer you didn't have a great deal of experience of criminal litigation I'd accept that so would that be a convenient moment to take the morning break yes it would um we will now have quarter of an hour break to
01:36:17 now have quarter of an hour break to enable the transcriber to have a break and
01:36:22 you apologize
01:36:52 for
02:41:18 e e
02:42:17 now this is a report dated the 24th of July uh it's talks about um Clark seeking a new location at which to manufacture further
02:42:29 manufacture further iids um but can we look uh for my immediate purposes at paragraph four
02:42:41 please Clark and his trusted comrades are agreed that deim should be given until the 1st of October 1987 to remove F from all their stores in the meantime he plans to have devices ready for use against other retail outlets for the fur
02:42:54 against other retail outlets for the fur trade provisionally it would appear that the most likely targets will be Harrod's and
02:43:00 and CNA in Oxford
02:43:13 CNA in Oxford Street again did you inquire at all as to how Lambert knew that almost certainly
02:43:19 not or to ask him how close cl to Clark sheeper
02:43:21 sheeper was
02:43:27 was no or how close to Clark Lambert was
02:43:36 no how frequently were you talking to Lambert in the aftermath of these important
02:43:40 important attacks I can't remember we would have talked to him normally the we weekly meetings on Monday on Thursday and if anything occurred outside of the meeting meetings as
02:43:58 well would it be right to take away from that answer that you're painting a picture of business as usual or was it different given the gravity of what had
02:44:09 gravity of what had happened this was very important and it was probably the the leading problem that SDS had at that time in obtaining this type of intelligence so it something that we would have kept a firm grip
02:44:23 would have kept a firm grip on but not firm enough to ask Lambert how he was getting the intelligence didn't need to ask him that I didn't see it as a
02:44:42 I didn't see it as a priority could we take that down now and have 735 383 up please this is a report from the 11th of August
02:44:58 if we could go to the report itself paragraph two [Music]
02:45:06 [Music] please what's been committed to paper here is intelligence that Andrew Clark uh not only
02:45:10 only um manufactured them manufactured the iids but he planted the devices at the Luton store the one where very extensive fire damage was occasioned goes on to
02:45:23 fire damage was occasioned goes on to say two close and trusted comrades were responsible for planting devices at the Harrow and Romford branches their identity is not known at
02:45:35 identity is not known at present this is important intelligence isn't it correct did you discuss it with Lambert at all I can't
02:45:51 all I can't remember this is exactly what the senior offic you'd met back in July wanted to know wasn't it who who did
02:45:55 it could we go to paragraph four
02:46:08 please I'll give you a moment to read that
02:46:38 even greater regard for security was going to be
02:46:41 had what did that make you
02:46:47 think at the time it would have said to me that Bob was at the top Echelon of the Al and had access to very very um detailed intelligence of their
02:47:04 intentions it essentially tells you in conjunction with the intelligence is reporting Lambert is in the cell isn't he I don't know if he's in the cell but
02:47:19 he I don't know if he's in the cell but he's very close to it certainly how else would he get information like
02:47:21 like this I don't know it's very very
02:47:31 detailed did you show any inquisitiveness as to whether he was in the cell or not not that I can remember no did you actually know that in fact he was in the cell no
02:47:51 thank you can we take that uh down now
02:47:56 please could we have up
02:48:01 735 359
02:48:20 please this is um a minute sheet and it's about preparing to commence surveillance of
02:48:30 Clark were you involved in discussions with senior managers
02:48:36 managers about commencing surveillance on Clark I don't recall no they're awaiting confirmation from The Source that's Bob Lambert isn't it yes so you would have
02:48:47 Lambert isn't it yes so you would have been involved in relaying Bob Lambert's intelligence up the chain so a decision could be made to commend
02:49:01 surveillance yes in conjunction with the
02:49:16 DCI could we take that down now please have 735 382
02:49:33 that's yes the report report is 18th of August 1987 can we have paragraph two first of all [Music]
02:49:38 [Music] please on Thursday the 13th of August and Saturday the 15th of August 1987 an active London cell of the animal
02:49:52 active London cell of the animal Liberation Front held secret meetings in North in East London only four people were
02:49:59 present did it strike you as odd that they are not named I don't know they named at the end of the report I can't see no there's reference we'll come to later on to Clark and
02:50:20 on to Clark and Shephard and it's obvious that they were there but the other two are not named one of them Bob Lambert presumably why isn't the fourth person named I don't know you'd have to ask Bob did you ask Bob
02:50:32 did you ask Bob no could we have paragraph four
02:50:44 please if we I'll give you a moment to read that
02:51:19 uh so we're told here for the first time in writing that shepher planted two devices at the bromford branch said this is 18th of August um why did it take him so long I don't
02:51:32 long I don't know did you ask him about it probably not did you rib him about it I don't
02:51:44 know this again is talking about security precautions and the security precaution that's been discussed is separating the device manufacturers bark and Shepherd uh from the
02:51:59 the Planters the Planters aren't identified here did you have any idea who the Planters were going to be I can't remember at that time somebody was going to have to find
02:52:15 somebody was going to have to find Planters who did not know that Clark and sheer were going to build the devices presumably
02:52:21 that's a task within the cell which might naturally have fallen to Bob Lambert as one of the people who was not going to manufacturer the devices
02:52:32 going to manufacturer the devices supposition a warning Bell that might have rung for you I don't know if it did at the time did you discuss with him how that was going to happen I don't recall
02:52:51 it was this an important report for your PO from your point of view well it would have been
02:52:56 have been yes can we go to paragraph 10 please which is on another [Music]
02:53:05 page give you a moment to read that it's it's about what's going to happen if deams ignore the 1st of October 1987 deadline
02:53:31 [Music] are you able to help us uh with whether or not there was any communication between any part of special branch and
02:53:42 deams that would not have been in my roomit on the SDs that would have been either between cquad maybe AR and deams I don't know of any yeah I understand that it wouldn't have been your personal
02:53:55 that it wouldn't have been your personal job necessarily I just wanted to know if you knew whether deams were being assisted to protect themselves from crime by intelligence provided by the SDS I don't
02:54:10 know could we take that down and have 735 361 up please
02:54:24 this is August we're back to the question of surveillance if we could have a look at minute 10 first please at the top of the page I'll give you a moment to read that
02:54:54 and if we could just go down far enough to see the signat whose signature it is yeah it's Mr shorta the detective Chief superintendent very keen to start evidential
02:55:09 evidential surveillance um but also concerned about operational security presumably of Bob Lambert and the SDS correct and you are to be brought into a discussion about that right can you recall that
02:55:26 discussion I can't what would the operational security
02:55:30 security concerns connected with the commencement of a surveillance operation have
02:55:40 been he talks here about an evidential surveillance operation in my experience all surveillance is evidential so it did need that
02:55:51 evidential so it did need that um I think what Mr short was getting on about here is the protection of the SDS officer in what is likely to be a very serious criminal
02:56:02 serious criminal offense in what sense in that we do not want the source
02:56:11 source participating in any form of criminal offense do you not want the source to appear on any surveillance photographs
02:56:27 either it would be it would be good if he didn't but I don't think that would have been a possibility at the time if they're used in a subsequent prosecution used evidentially
02:56:43 subsequent prosecution used evidentially it beg questions as to who he is doesn't it could it could produce draw him into a trial yes was that a consideration that might have been in Mr short mind at the time I don't
02:56:56 the time I don't know doing your the best you can now what would your input into this conversation have
02:57:00 [Music]
02:57:07 been if there's a surveillance operation against shepher initially I would have made sure that Bob knew about that so that he could if possible distance himself from shepher
02:57:19 possible distance himself from shepher um the likelihood is that people on the surveillance team would have recognized him straight away Bob that
02:57:31 away Bob that is were photographs taken that depicted Bob Lambert I don't know could we take that down now please and have 735 [Music]
02:57:50 381 um this is a briefing note but the second paragraph It's 24th of August second paragraph um is the result of some of the
02:58:05 some of the surveillance and it's combined as you will see at the end of the paragraph with intelligence from a secret and reliable source it's about the transfer of bags and the secret and reliable
02:58:20 of bags and the secret and reliable source is confirming that what's in the bags were the component parts for IID Bob Lambert was the source of that wasn't
02:58:22 wasn't he I don't know I presume so did he speak to you about that I don't remember it no presumably you
02:58:33 don't remember it no presumably you would have fed the intelligence from Mr Lambert up the chain yes wasn't that important
02:58:44 yes wasn't that important intelligence yes can you not remember that coming in no if we go to the fourth paragraph
02:59:01 please since been learned that the contact at privacy Grove Road E3 is MSW that's where the components have come from Little is known about this man but he's believed to be performing the role of Quarter Master in this affair where
02:59:12 of Quarter Master in this affair where not giving out mw's name you can check it on um the key if you want to uh did Bob Lambert identify mssw to
02:59:28 Bob Lambert identify mssw to you um see I don't know who it is [Music]
02:59:34 [Music] um I'm sorry I'm a bit lost on MSW where I'll find
02:59:36 I'll find this but I don't I'll tell you what we
02:59:47 this but I don't I'll tell you what we as it's just coming up to 1:00 um we can deal with that over the lunch
02:59:52 lunch adjournment uh and I will move on and ask you paragraph [Music]
03:00:10 one this is the uh the plan if we go to page two at the top of page
03:00:24 two ref ref to Helen steel Helen steel of lyen Road N15 is the only other principal figure to emerge in this inquiry however as intelligence shows that she is most unlikely to have anything incriminating at her address and to facilitate Source protection it is recommended that her premises should not be
03:00:46 searched was Source protection a part of the decision not to search Helen Steel's address
03:00:52 I don't know
03:00:58 know possibly and why was it necessary for Source
03:01:06 protection I don't know is the answer to that it possibly is because Bob was the only one who had been given anything any access to her
03:01:19 access to her place um and also from his knowledge of her um he probably knew she wouldn't have anything there so he thought it would be a waste to search her premises there Source protection is your
03:01:33 there Source protection is your responsibility isn't it at this time yeah would you have discussed it with Bob
03:01:44 Lambert I can't remember if I did or not would you have done
03:01:53 maybe not that may have been a bit higher up the chain I don't know so would now be a convenient moment to break for lunch certainly
03:02:04 certainly um before we rise could I ask you to
03:02:15 um before we rise could I ask you to reflect please over the lunch break uh about the document that appears uh at 0735
03:02:32 0735 382 um that is the report by Bob Lambert of two meetings on the 13th and 15th of August the report being dated the 18th of August 1987 yes sir um that is a detailed report about the plans of a cell of no more than four
03:02:49 plans of a cell of no more than four people at that stage to commit serious offenses uh a little
03:03:00 later I want you to reflect on what if anything you said to Lambert about uh his participation in that cell but I'm not asking for an instant answer you give one after you've reflected upon it I'd be grateful we'll
03:03:13 reflected upon it I'd be grateful we'll now rise for uh an hour and start again at
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