Morning session examining HN32 DS Michael Couch about his role as detective sergeant in SDS between 1983-1987. Covers report writing processes, sanitization, knowledge of undercover officers' arrests and criminal offenses, welfare provision, inappropriate reporting on sexuality and appearance, and his involvement in the fake search of Bob Lambert's flat during Operation Sparkler.
00:01:28 e e
00:02:08 good morning everybody today's proceedings are being live streamed those with uh electronic devices may use them to transmit what they here but only 15 minutes after the event that they're
00:02:22 15 minutes after the event that they're describing those devices may not be used for recording or photography yes hello sir can you hear me I'll take you through the affirmation
00:02:34 if you'd like yes I can hear yes okay if you'd like to repeat after me please I do solemnly sincerely and truly I Sol me clearly and
00:02:46 clearly and sincerely declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give
00:02:57 affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank you
00:03:02 Mr Howard Mr couch can I first check that you can both see and hear me yes I can sir thank you could you please confirm your full name Michael John
00:03:21 your full name Michael John coach Mr couch you've made two witness statements to the inquiry the first dated the 21st of September 2023 and a second supplementary statement dated the 14th of November 202 three um are the contents of those
00:03:32 three um are the contents of those statements true and accurate to the extent of your knowledge and belief they
00:03:49 extent of your knowledge and belief they are sir thank you I'm not proposing that we call those up at this moment in time but for the purposes of the transcript uh those are MPS 074 8824 and MPS 074
00:04:02 8887 Mr couch it's right isn't it that you were detective Sergeant in the SDS between April 1983 and July 1987 that's correct say it yes and you say in your witness statement that you
00:04:15 say in your witness statement that you joined the Metropolitan Police in 1967 as a uniformed officer is that right that's right yes sir and joined special branch in January 1973 that's correct you say in your witness
00:04:27 correct you say in your witness statement that you knew all were aware of the existence of the SDS before you joined is that right that's right yes
00:04:40 joined is that right that's right yes sir yes um what was it about the unit that you were aware of at that
00:04:47 time uh that they were undercover officers
00:04:48 officers um providing intelligence from
00:05:06 uh individuals like ly to cause problems at demonstrations uh and maybe provide intelligence as to extremist activity I think you say in your
00:05:17 activity I think you say in your statement that um during a posting on Squad you had had sight of reporting which you had uh suspected emanated from the SDS is that right yes that's right it normally was
00:05:34 it normally was addressed in a particular way and well did looking at these reports were you able to form an Insight at all into the nature of the SDS from from from that yes
00:05:47 that yes not vaguely I suppose but yes I yeah I I got a good idea
00:05:54 idea really
00:06:03 really of of what groups um they were uh trying to infiltrate you said tell us in your statement that you were approached uh in 1973 to join the SDS as a field
00:06:23 1973 to join the SDS as a field officer you tell us that that approach Was Made By Di and it's an individual we're calling hn 294
00:06:37 just take a moment to consult your Cipher key but please don't say the name alowed once you've identified it yes that's correct sir yes what at that time was explained to you about the unit and about the role you were being asked to
00:06:52 you were being asked to perform I really can't remember exactly it was it was a informal interview I think just wasn't an an invite to join as such but um would I consider it in the
00:07:07 the future and at the time I had personal difficulties at home
00:07:12 home uh I
00:07:19 uh I was uh in the middle of a divorce and just wouldn't have been uh any good for my health at all you say in your statement Mr couch that one of the reasons that you
00:07:30 that one of the reasons that you declined the role was because you felt that undercover work wasn't for you is that right that's right yes what was it at that time about undercover work that you felt wasn't for
00:07:47 you I didn't think I could live a lie I don't think um
00:07:53 successfully you also tell us I think that you didn't want to give up your social life is that right yes that's right
00:08:00 right and what was it that you understood about being a field officer on the SDs that that made you feel that that you might have to give your social life up well I was playing a lot of rugby in
00:08:16 up well I was playing a lot of rugby in those days for the Met police and mixing with other police officers um who were interested in in and playing rugby for the police and that would have been a major um thing have to give up and I
00:08:31 major um thing have to give up and I wasn't didn't want to to do that and and that was because the the impression that you had formed was that joining the unit meant that you would have to give those sorts of things up yes
00:08:52 sorts of things up yes sir moving forward then to when you you did um eventually join the unit um you tell us in your statement um that you joined in
00:08:58 joined in 1983 and this followed a call from the then uh DCI the SDS um DCI short who offered you a role as the SDS admin Sergeant is that right that's
00:09:11 admin Sergeant is that right that's right so yeah what at that time did DCI short explain to you about the
00:09:22 role um Lally there were going to be two sergeants in the office with under his supervision with a Di and the two sergeants were
00:09:34 Di and the two sergeants were responsible for one tidying and making sure the intelligence tiing reports and making sure the intelligence
00:09:47 making sure the intelligence was passed to our main office and to the security
00:10:01 security service um at Scotland Yard it uh and the other in charge of uh the finance um part of the um of the of the office and it's right isn't it that at that time you were offered the the particular role that was we call the admin Sergeant but that's dealing with
00:10:13 admin Sergeant but that's dealing with the reporting side of of things it was yes for a year I think you say in your statement that it sounded like an interesting role to you
00:10:25 sounded like an interesting role to you is that right that's right yeah what was it about the role that sounded particularly interesting I really to find out more about undercover policing I think at the time so you joined in
00:10:37 time so you joined in 1983 as one of two detective sergeants in the SDS back office yeah um the other at that
00:10:47 at that time we understand to have been at dsh hn
00:10:48 hn 45 again if you need to refresh your memory do do consult your Cipher key but please don't say the name aloud
00:11:05 yes that's correct um whilst we are dealing with the composition of the unit there is just a matter in your witness statement um that I would like to clarify with you so if that could be brought up please uh MPS 074
00:11:20 8824 and if we could go to page eight once that's been brought up
00:11:29 please thank you and and at the towards the bottom of that page uh you are dealing with u members of the management team during the time that you in the
00:11:40 team during the time that you in the unit and actually the bid I want to ask you about crosses over onto the following page as well thank you very much um so if we were to look at 34b uh you you talk about DCI Anthony
00:11:54 34b uh you you talk about DCI Anthony weight say we knew him as Tony weight he was the
00:12:00 was the DCI uh and then it says succeeding DCI Malcolm
00:12:06 Malcolm McLoud and then at C DCI Malcolm McLoud he succeeded DCI short as DCI Mr couch my question to you is is it
00:12:17 DCI Mr couch my question to you is is it is it possible that you have got the the order of uh DCI weight and DCI McLoud the wrong way around in in that bit of the
00:12:24 the statement
00:12:31 uh um no I think Malcolm McLoud was before Mr
00:12:33 before Mr wait the the evidence that the inquiry
00:12:45 wait the the evidence that the inquiry has scen suggests that uh DCI weight um succeeded DCI short and then Mr McLoud uh followed him is it is it possible that that that could have been the case to your
00:13:00 recollection uh no I don't think so but now you're throwing doubt into my mind but I'm sure Mr White was Mr MCL was only there very briefly I think yes okay thank you Mr cou well well um we'll move on from
00:13:12 well um we'll move on from that in terms of the division of labor within the back office it's right isn't it that you perform the duty of the
00:13:29 it that you perform the duty of the admin sergeant and the finance and and expenses role that was carried out by dsh and 45 when you join the
00:13:42 unit yes and in terms of broadly what you were responsible for you as the admin Sergeant your your principal responsibility was the process of
00:13:54 responsibility was the process of producing uh the intelligence reports that were that were being produced by the SDS is that right that's correct sir yeah and the sergeant who was dealing with the financial side of things
00:14:09 with the financial side of things predominantly that was managing um claims for expenses and um anything to do with the upkeep of uh vehicles and so on yes that's
00:14:26 correct you tell us that you moved eventually from the admin Sergeant role to the finance role would that have been when DS Chris Hyde joined the unit replacing hn 45 that's correct sir yep yes we we
00:14:41 45 that's correct sir yep yes we we understand that to have been in around April 1985 does that sound right to
00:14:52 you I'd say it was fa close but I can't be sure yes so so broadly speaking you would have performed the admin role between about April 198 83 and April
00:15:04 and April 1985 and then when Chris Hy joined the unit you performed the finance role thereafter does that sound about right that's
00:15:10 that's that's that's correct sir yeah um as the as the admin Sergeant other than dealing with the reports did the role include attending the twice
00:15:29 the role include attending the twice weekly meetings of the unit yes it did did it include uh taking the daily check-in calls from undercover officers yes that would be well that would be both the sergeants generally yes but if we were busy then one of the other one of the senior officers would
00:15:43 other one of the senior officers would take the call but generally it was the sergeant
00:15:44 sergeant yes did it also include from time to time accompanying the DI or the DCI on
00:15:56 time accompanying the DI or the DCI on trips outside of the Metropolitan Police District occasionally yes inde did
00:16:08 you you've said in your statement that the detective sergeants weren't managers and you didn't understand your role in that way is that right I think so because a a lot of the guys who are working undercover were the same rank as we were yes it it follows then that you didn't consider the under
00:16:25 then that you didn't consider the under officers reported directly to you or you had some sort of line management supervision over them no did you provide undercover officers with any form of operational direction or
00:16:39 control um if we had a request from one of the main squads within special Branch um and I would generally pass it to the senior
00:16:55 I would generally pass it to the senior officers or if they weren't available I would go direct to the undercover office officer with the request so
00:17:10 yes and what if anything was the fact that you were not managing undercover officers what if anything did that mean for the dynamic of the relationships that the the back office sergeants had with the undercover
00:17:28 officers um we were close colleagues I I suppose really
00:17:29 really as opposed to managing so does it follow then that one of the effects of of not being part of
00:17:40 of the effects of of not being part of the management team as it were or or the undercover officers uh bosses was that the undercover officers maybe felt more closely associated with you I would say
00:17:58 you I would say yes was the relationship between you and the undercover undercover officers less formal perhaps than it would have been between them and the management
00:18:06 team um the whole dynamic was fairly
00:18:17 um the whole dynamic was fairly informant but everyone know knew who the the governors were but it was um fairly informal um and relaxed would undercover offices have been more candid with you than perhaps
00:18:28 been more candid with you than perhaps they would have been with members of of the management team I doubt
00:18:39 it do do you ever engage in banter with the undercover officers um yes and what sort of things would broadly would that would that
00:18:59 entail they wouldn't talk about or didn't talk about say wouldn't um their specific uh undercover work but we would talk about anything and everything um
00:19:14 with just family uh sport uh working conditions um what they do
00:19:26 um what they do socially um that sort of thing would banto have included making lie to making jokes at one another's
00:19:36 expense uh yes but uh there was nothing
00:19:44 nothing um it was fun it was there was nothing un
00:19:52 to the officer who we are calling hn2 please again just consult your si key please don't say their name aloud
00:20:07 yeah um in in his evidenced inquiry said about your colleague Chris Hyde that he
00:20:22 about your colleague Chris Hyde that he was probably too close to members of the field he said he liked to be one of the chaps one of the boys do do you agree with that characterization of Chris Hyde
00:20:24 Hyde no why not I don't think he was I don't think he attempted to be one of the boys it was a certainly
00:20:42 it was a certainly a a sense that we were the office if you like and the undercover officers
00:20:50 um were a different unit what totally hm25 also said about Chris Hyde
00:21:02 totally hm25 also said about Chris Hyde he felt like the rank wasn't really that important to him and that he was was of a level with you would you agree with that characterization at all I don't know what rank
00:21:17 um uh hm25 was at the time uh I thought it was a a DS I must say and would you agree sorry forgive me no
00:21:29 and would you agree sorry forgive me no please please Mr C i i I thought he was a DS which is the same rank as
00:21:43 uh it's the count sorry Mr C yeah
00:21:48 um the the characterization though in general that um Chris Hyde thought he was of a level with undercover officers would do do you agree with that at all
00:22:01 would do do you agree with that at all I'm not sure what you mean on a level he was the same rank as a lot of them but uh and there would be banter between the two sides if you
00:22:17 between the two sides if you like thanks Mr couch moving on then did you see that there was a pastoral or welfare element to your
00:22:28 welfare element to your role oh yes and would you say that that was a substantial element of the role that you carried out I think so we'd um we'd mix uh occasionally
00:22:42 um uh on a day off um for instance I I would I was quite fit in those days and um I would go running or playing
00:22:58 and um I would go running or playing sport uh badmington squash with him when we finished work or before we started
00:23:09 started um and of course there was a certain element of um having a drink occasionally um
00:23:17 um uh and we had what we would call an away Day on on days off very occasionally and the whole Squad would go off
00:23:29 go off [Music]
00:23:34 [Music] um for instance we we went to the races one day
00:23:35 one day um um the whole tribe of us went to the beach and we had a very occasional trip to
00:23:45 to bin
00:23:47 bin um
00:23:55 um um just general good fun and BR on back to
00:23:56 to um Being Human if you like and uh so yes there was a certain am of
00:24:07 uh so yes there was a certain am of that you say in your statement that if underc undercover officers had any worries they could come through you and you would escalate it with the di or DCI is that
00:24:17 is that right yes was this a particular assurance that you had given to undercover
00:24:32 officers that they could come to you no I don't think so it's just that um I was
00:24:34 um I was fairly people friendly and they knew they could come to me and um I would U
00:24:49 they could come to me and um I would U pass them to the DI or the DCI if if I thought it was necessary or if they thought it was necessary um or they could go direct to them
00:24:56 them um the
00:25:02 um the and what sort of worries would they come to you
00:25:06 with
00:25:16 uh I can't think of anything specific off the top of my head [Music]
00:25:21 [Music] um what what sort of things do can you recall
00:25:43 well they no I can't really I can't remember the twice daily phone calls into the
00:25:48 into the office did that have a predominantly welfare
00:25:51 welfare purpose
00:25:54 purpose yes and we don't need to turn it up but um DCI we has said in his statement it's paragraph
00:26:06 paragraph 213 that the calls to the DS's they were to say essentially that the officers were alive and well and let you know how things were going would you agree with that characterization yes I would
00:26:28 Y in your statement you address an appraisal of You by DCI weight where he says you are able to assist other officers when they had difficulties um how how consistent is that appraisal with the welfare aspect of your
00:26:49 role well I was a fairly experienced DS and if they had any problems they could come to me and I could give advice um if they needed it um rather than go up to the DI and the DCI if they didn't want
00:27:02 DCI if they didn't want to and and I suspect it follows from your evidence a moment ago but are you able to recall any particular
00:27:17 able to recall any particular difficulties um that that that officers might have come to you with no not off the top of my head in in that same appraisal um Chief superintendent Tucker refers to your close supervision of young officers
00:27:31 close supervision of young officers again does that strike you as consistent with your role at the
00:27:38 time uh well I was always there if they wanted
00:27:43 help um yes I suppose yes but the younger
00:27:57 yes but the younger DCS and most of the DS's would um be more than capable of of sorting out their own problems
00:28:08 Roger Pierce when he gave evidence to the inquiry said that the sergeants had their ears to the ground is is that a characterization that you would agree
00:28:24 with probably more so than the senior officers I would imagine and would you say you there were particular things that you might have been listening out
00:28:38 for no any risks to under undercover officers welfare for
00:28:53 example um we had one or two problems with
00:29:00 with um uh officers uh dur my period there um with
00:29:08 um with illness yeah this is It's a topic I'm going to revisit in in due course Mr couch
00:29:12 couch um for the time being then were there any other particular risks that you would say that you and your colleagues in the back office might have been uh trying to listen out
00:29:28 for uh I think where you're going is
00:29:35 is uh that was never talked about if that's that L you're talking about relationships yes sexual relationships between undercover officers and
00:29:47 between undercover officers and individuals that they were reporting on was that something you might have been listening out
00:29:55 for that was never discussed again Mr couch it's a it's a topic we're going to revisit in due course course for the time being I'm going to move on to the question of recruitment of SDS officers to the
00:30:07 recruitment of SDS officers to the unit you say in your statement that the preference was for SS officers to be in long-term relationships to provide stability at home being an undercover
00:30:21 stability at home being an undercover officer can be isolating so this was for the well-being of the officers get to get back to normal when they were off duty is that right yes that's correct where did that understanding come from uh I think Mr
00:30:43 short you say that you didn't give any particular assurances to undercover officers uh joining the unit about their Weare is that
00:30:58 right uh yes can can you recall if anybody
00:31:06 did no not off the top of my head I can't
00:31:10 can't know but certainly I would imagine it was
00:31:12 was disgusted um as they were
00:31:22 recruited looking then at what you say about the preference for long-term relationships to provide stability was the goal here to provide
00:31:34 stability was the goal here to provide undercover officers with an anchor back to their real lives
00:31:42 yes in and and was that in order to prevent undercover officers from becoming too embedded in their cover identities yes it
00:31:56 identities yes it was was there an understanding then that there was a real risk of that happening I in the was yes and where did where did that understanding come
00:32:12 from I think it was generally thought by by those in charge of the unit um backed up by the sergeants that it
00:32:19 it was a difficult role uh that the people were asked to perform uh um and we should be very
00:32:33 perform uh um and we should be very careful not to put too much pressure on them and be try and be aware if they're um being taken over by this
00:32:47 pressure why was it that the unit placed particular stock in married Partners as
00:32:58 particular stock in married Partners as an anchor as opposed to some other form of anchor to their real lives in what way sir what was any consideration given to other to other anchors or positive
00:33:10 other to other anchors or positive influences that officers might have in their real lives as as effectively addressing that risk that we've just spoken
00:33:19 about
00:33:27 uh I think we're going back that far I I can't think of that he know was one of the reasons perhaps why there was stock placed in married Partners as an anchor was because the
00:33:44 Partners as an anchor was because the unit was mindful of the risks of sexual relationships with people that undercover officers were reporting
00:33:52 on I can't recall that being discussed uh at all not with the office though I'm going to ask that the
00:34:03 though I'm going to ask that the document be brought up please it's um MPS
00:34:05 MPS 0738
00:34:10 0738 025 so it's in your supplementary bundle at tab
00:34:12 at tab six Mr couch this is a document which um concerns the officer we're calling hn 88 so again please consult your Cipher key
00:34:28 so again please consult your Cipher key and do not say the name aloud M um these are handwritten notes uh could we go to page six
00:34:34 page six please these are the handwritten notes of an interview with h88 by officers from operation Hearn 2015 um about halfway down the page there there is a sub or appears to be a subheading where the word sex is
00:34:49 subheading where the word sex is underlined yeah I've got it y yeah and then just a couple of lines down from that there is a note that says single men with groups do you see that
00:35:02 yep yes sir could we go over to the next page
00:35:11 page please and at the very top of that page again there's a note that says only married people for a
00:35:30 reason does it follow from from that that there was at least some degree of awareness within the unit
00:35:38 unit of the risk of sexual relationships and the as it were the need for recruiting married officers to counter that
00:35:45 risk no I don't think so I think it would
00:35:46 would um it just being back to having a a stable life at home whether they're Partners or married or I don't think um
00:36:13 we knew of any sexual activity within um with undercover officers and the people groups that they were infiltrating at the time and that that can be brought down now
00:36:22 now please Roger Pearson his evidence to the inquiry said this the issue was the SDS inviting married men generally to live a single men for nearly half a decade
00:36:34 single men for nearly half a decade conventional men with Partners living an unconventional radical life the risks should have been raised more fully at the
00:36:40 the time would you agree or not with that view that he has expressed I think so yeah what what aspect of that in particular would you agree
00:36:55 with uh
00:37:08 it would be difficult for for men if there were women within the group and and they
00:37:12 and they were attracted to the undercover officers
00:37:20 officers um if they were weren't married they were single they they might just think that uh well I suppose why not if the um if the girl was Keen
00:37:38 but what if any consideration was given to the possibility that an undercover officer marriage or partnership may not have
00:37:51 marriage or partnership may not have been an anchor or positive influence in their real
00:37:58 life I don't know [Music]
00:37:59 [Music] uh
00:38:06 uh certainly my memories are that most of them had those that were married uh had uh decent uh marriage happy
00:38:28 uh marriage happy marriages um which they were quite happy to talk about um at the meetings we had twice a week you know just informally is it right then to say that the Assumption was that where undercover officers were married that would have
00:38:42 officers were married that would have always acted as an anchor or positive influence back to their real lives I don't think always
00:38:51 now turning then to the back office MH um is it right that on a on a given day the back office can consisted of you the other detective sergeant and
00:39:07 the other detective sergeant and then more often than not an undercover officer
00:39:09 officer pre-employment yes that's correct and the undercover officer prior to their
00:39:21 to their deployment were they in the back office for a period of approximately 6 months or
00:39:27 so uh I think it varied but I can't I can't put a a Time on it but that sounds not far
00:39:38 it but that sounds not far off would the DI or DCI of the unit attend the back office often yes there was what it was an open Office really were just two rooms
00:39:53 Office really were just two rooms yes forgive me the other room being what was what was referred to as the front office yes yes is it right then on on a on a given day uh you would have been as admin Sergeant undertaking work on the
00:40:06 Sergeant undertaking work on the reports yeah yes the other detective Sergeant working on expenses and other
00:40:17 Sergeant working on expenses and other Financial related issues in the unit yes correct what would on a normal day the undercover officer that was posted with you in the back office have been
00:40:30 doing well he be preparing uh his Legend uh if you like um for deployment so he would try and
00:40:50 deployment so he would try and arrange um well a vehicle for a start we'd we'd have to get him a vehicle and uh driving license was and then um some sort of employment they they sort that out themselves with
00:41:06 they they sort that out themselves with friends or people they knew from outside of the U police uh working would they have been reading intelligence reports that were being submitted to the back office
00:41:18 being submitted to the back office yes uh assisting you and the other detective Sergeant with the work you were doing on the reports and expenses uh uh not so
00:41:30 expenses uh uh not so much but yeah occasionally yes Bob Lambert in his evidence said that he would occasionally be adding file
00:41:41 would occasionally be adding file references to some of the reports does that sound like something that they might have been doing yes well they they would
00:41:52 um if the undercover officer requested site of a a file of any sort um they would be the ones to go to Scotland Yard from where
00:42:10 ones to go to Scotland Yard from where we were situated in Vincent Square there and collect it plus they' bring back expenses and this sort of thing and I think you say in your statement that it would often be the case that that that officer would be
00:42:21 case that that that officer would be taking the the draft reports over to be typed up is that right that was in in initially in my time yeah yes will we revisit that process um
00:42:33 revisit that process um shortly um you've you've said in your statement that there was no formal training for under undercover officers and that they learned from their time in the back office and from attending the weekly meetings is that right that's
00:42:45 weekly meetings is that right that's right yes does it follow then that this period that they spent with you for for several months was quite a critical period in their Learning and Development before being deployed
00:43:08 yes you've said in your statement that you don't have any recollection of there being a ring binder or other loose leaf collection of of documents in the back office is that right yes I've been asked that and I I can't recall it is that that you you there might have been but you don't remember or that you don't
00:43:22 you don't remember or that you don't think there was there might have been but I don't
00:43:29 remember how do you recall the ways in which under officers would learn about things such as how to create their cover
00:43:40 identities
00:43:50 um well they would um well are we going back to the um the dead children side of things or or not yeah I I I'm going to ask you in a moment about that particular issue um
00:44:10 a moment about that particular issue um would they for example the under offers ask you questions about um the the life of an undercover officer deployed and and gained some insight from
00:44:25 you uh um not so much because I had no experience of undercover work as AOS well apart from being in the office um so they would yeah they would ask general questions but
00:44:39 ask general questions but um for for more detailed stuff as to how they go about joining groups and um working their way into into those some
00:44:54 working their way into into those some position of authority uh they they get that from the guys who are out in the field already can you recall on a given day the types of conversations that took place between you in the back office would you for example be talking
00:45:06 example be talking about the deployments that were ongoing at the time and anything you'd observed in the
00:45:21 reporting um yes yes we could do but with who with in between the office stff amongst yourselves yes so you the the other detective sergeant and the and the officer who was um
00:45:34 officer who was um pre-employment oh yes we we discussed that
00:45:36 that and they would already been asked I think um to infiltrate a particular
00:45:47 think um to infiltrate a particular group and would those conversations include conversations about um the particular individuals that were being reported on at the time
00:46:02 well they'd see names in the reports of of the people um we're talking about
00:46:12 here and they could have get they if they were asked to join a particular group they could access files from Scotland Yard and read up on those which they wouldn't
00:46:27 they wouldn't do we're going to move on now Mr couch to something you've touched on just a moment ago which is um The Legend building process you you say in your statement that you were not involved in Legend building in any
00:46:43 Legend building in any way is that right that's right yeah um but based on what we've we've just discussed a moment ago is this something that you accept was going on in and around the immediate environment where you were
00:46:53 you were working yes would did you ever
00:47:04 would did you ever test undercover officers on their cover identities before they were deployed I don't recall doing that
00:47:16 deployed I don't recall doing that no wouldd like I'd like to bring up a document please um MPS 0728
00:47:19 0728 978 it's the uh SDS annual report from 1986 could we go to uh page six please
00:47:30 [Music]
00:47:41 and that might be the wrong
00:47:48 page uh no forgive me that is the right page we're looking at paragraph 11
00:47:56 please thank you I'm just going to read what parag 11 says to you as a first step each officer prior to entering the field spends a great deal of time researching and establishing his false
00:48:09 researching and establishing his false identity in this respect our gratitude must be expressed for the help and advice given by the security service before an officer becomes operational his background is Thoroughly checked by the administrative staff and only if it is found to be complete in
00:48:24 only if it is found to be complete in every respect will he be permitted to become operational
00:48:35 does that Mr couch prompt any recollection about whether or not you were involved in testing undercover officers on their cover identities I don't recall doing that and that can be taken down now please turning then to the use of
00:48:51 please turning then to the use of undercover officers by of the identities of deceased children you said in your witness statement that you were aware that this was the practice
00:49:08 yes and you've also said that the in your view the rationale was the need to use an existing name on the birth register is that right yes
00:49:13 right yes that's do you recall ever assisting a an officer in arranging to
00:49:26 arranging to visit um the location where the deceased child who ident they were using grew
00:49:35 up no I don't do you recall ever assisting an undercover officer in conducting Research into the family of the deceased child
00:49:51 no you say in your statement um I certainly do not think the practice would have continued if there was another option is that right that's correct yes
00:50:05 that's correct yes sir and are you able to say whether that view was the General view that was held within the unit at the
00:50:12 time I'd say no one no one questioned
00:50:24 one no one questioned um or came to me or any of the others I don't think um that we shouldn't be doing it that way can you forgive me go
00:50:37 go um can you recall if any consideration was ever given to other options for example using an entirely fictional
00:50:56 identity I I don't think so because that would be a lot easier to to check if you would used a totally fictional identity it'd be quite easy to go to what was then Somerset house I
00:51:08 go to what was then Somerset house I think in our time or and then became SE Catherine's house I think um to check the DAT of birth that um was given and there' be no one there so it would
00:51:21 so it would uh
00:51:28 uh was it it would be um a lot easier to to expose the officer was any consideration given to the fact that using an entirely fictional
00:51:36 fictional identity would address the risk of an undercover officer being presented with their death
00:51:49 certificate I don't know not by me but uh it it might well have been
00:52:05 are you aware that the SDS Officer Rick Clark was presented with his own death certificate whil
00:52:12 deployed I knew he was re I knew he he left the uh unit
00:52:17 unit early
00:52:19 early um but no I didn't know that we're going to move on then to the topic of of reporting and we'll start
00:52:31 topic of of reporting and we'll start just by looking at the process by which intelligence reports were produced um you say in your statement
00:52:42 produced um you say in your statement that undercover officers handed in their handwritten reports at the twice weekly meetings and would also report intelligence orally is that right that's right yes sir you've said that you or whoever the admin Sergeant was at the
00:52:54 whoever the admin Sergeant was at the time would take those handwritten notes away
00:53:00 away did you also make a note of any of that intelligence that was being reported orally at the
00:53:12 meeting uh I didn't I don't think but certainly the DCI would have done or the DI
00:53:15 DI um you've said forgive me on um I might well have made notes as well
00:53:31 you you've said in your statement that during the meeting you would try to read them the the handwritten notes through and if I had time during the meeting to ascertain whether any information needed clarifying does that sound right yes
00:53:43 clarifying does that sound right yes that's correct sir can you explain what you mean by clarifying and what types of information you would ask for clarification about
00:54:01 uh only if the if the reports were written in a hurry and it didn't make sense to me I'd have to to to get them to clarify what they mean because if if
00:54:12 to clarify what they mean because if if I'm actually trying to put it into order and and grammatically correct I've got to be very careful that I don't change the
00:54:25 the meaning of the intelligence that's been provided we're going to explore in a moment those next stages of the the process um I think you've also said in in your statement that once you'd had that received that raw intelligence you
00:54:37 that received that raw intelligence you would sense check it is that the same as the process you were speaking about just now which is essentially making sure that it all made sense to you yes yes um
00:54:57 that it all made sense to you yes yes um and I'm sure it follows from what you've said but that constituted you reading that draft report didn't it it did
00:54:59 it did yes you've explained that the next step once you'd sense check the reports would be to have it sent off to be typed up were there any circumstances in which
00:55:12 up were there any circumstances in which you would not send the handwritten ports to be typed
00:55:26 up uh not that I can remember we uh in when I initially started that it was all the reports went to the head of the SB type tying pool the woman in charge um and it wasn't it was kept solely in
00:55:41 solely in her in her power to type it up and no one else got sight of it within the typing
00:55:42 typing pool and then it would returned to us and we would check it for typing errors and that sort of thing which were very rare yes so so as far as you were
00:55:58 rare yes so so as far as you were concerned then once you'd just when You' got that sort of raw intelligence there was there was not a decision on your part to be made about whether or not to send it off to be typed up it would just be something that you would do yes that's
00:56:08 that's correct you've explained just a moment ago that once that typed up report was returned you would you would check it again for typos and grammatical errors is that right yes that's right and again
00:56:22 is that right yes that's right and again I'm sure it follows but that constituted you reading the whole of the report
00:56:28 report yes you then explained that it would be handed up to the DI or the DCI to to review and to sign were there any circumstances in which you would not have sent that typed up report to be reviewed and signed
00:56:48 signed no can you ever recall the DI or the DCI sending that report back to you um unsigned for any
00:57:02 reason no were there any circumstances you can think of in which the DCI or the DI would not sign the report having reviewed
00:57:12 it uh not that I can think of it's right then that that that after that stage that signed report would then be disseminated isn't that right yes
00:57:24 be disseminated isn't that right yes that would uh it would be copied to the security service
00:57:37 security service uh or a copy would be attached to to the first report signed off by the chief of the DI and then it would be taken over to our Squad Chief who would then disseminate as he thought
00:57:47 thought necessary does it follow then from what we've just gone through that process that nearly every handwritten report that you would receive would eventually end up being being
00:57:57 being disseminated regardless of its
00:58:06 content
00:58:18 um no uh a handwritten report yes what I'm getting at Mr cou is that you've explained to us that you can't recall circumstances in which the raw intelligence wouldn't be sent off to be
00:58:33 intelligence wouldn't be sent off to be typed up or circumstances in which those typed up reports wouldn't be signed off and disseminated so my question is really does it then follow that the original intelligence would almost always end up in a report that was sent out almost always but I I
00:58:45 out almost always but I I would there would probably be reports
00:58:57 would there would probably be reports that either either the Chief Inspector or the or the DI would say this
00:58:58 this shouldn't shouldn't go but um I can't recall if it's on my head any particular any specific one could you
00:59:09 one could you recall the broadly the types of situations in which they might say this doesn't need to
00:59:28 go no I can't remember any that uh that uh any of the senior officers said no this is just
00:59:36 just junk turning then to the content of the reports you say in your statement that undercover undercover officers got very little formal training on report writing is that
00:59:45 is that right uh no they when they first joined the branch they would um but they would
00:59:56 the branch they would um but they would be uh probationers under a sergeant and and the sergeant would give them instructions on how we in special Branch like to lay out um particular reports
01:00:13 like to lay out um particular reports um and uh that would be their informal training I suppose not actually a training
01:00:17 training course yes and what about training on producing SDS intelligence reporting
01:00:29 well that would be an extension of of the basic Special banch
01:00:42 Report would you say then that the period in which the undercover officer spent in the back office predeployment Reading
01:00:45 Reading reports that was essentially their main exposure to the the style and and tone of SDS reporting yes
01:00:56 and tone of SDS reporting yes was any thought given to the risk that undercover officers would simply imitate the style and tone of that reporting
01:01:11 the style and tone of that reporting that they were looking at regardless of its usefulness or
01:01:26 appropriateness um I suppose it could could be but
01:01:34 uh was that sorry Mr catch no I don't recall um any specific reports that
01:01:46 um any specific reports that were just uh Goldie go if you like I mean mostly they were pretty pretty steady report writing you've you've said in your statement that you don't Rec call
01:02:00 statement that you don't Rec call instructions being given to undercover officers as what to include or not to include in reporting is that right yes and and when you say that is
01:02:11 right yes and and when you say that is that because is that that you just don't recall or that you're saying that you don't believe any instructions were
01:02:16 given
01:02:23 uh they were probably given informally but I don't recall you know any particular instructions being being given to the undercover
01:02:38 officers you said that you would provide feedback only on their handwriting in in the handwritten reports um does it follow then that you you didn't wouldn't provide feedback on any other aspect of the report
01:02:56 writing uh no I would suggest um improvements if if they if I thought they were
01:02:57 they were necessary um but as I said earlier you when
01:03:10 you when you're um correcting reports you got to be very careful not to change any meaning whatsoever otherwise um and I know officers we we used to keep copies um of all the
01:03:25 copies um of all the reports in folders in the back office so that if they wanted access to to see what had happened to their original reports they could they could read
01:03:36 reports they could they could read it and and other than um spelling and typographical errors which we've covered what other improvements would you
01:03:55 suggest uh only the layout last if if I thought it needed but um generally it wasn't a
01:04:01 you say in your statement I do not recall any instances of the undercover officer report being altered in any way prior to or for the purpose of dissemination is that right yes um to be clear does that
01:04:17 right yes um to be clear does that include at any time before you sent the draft report off to be
01:04:26 typed yes if I thought it shouldn't be in any intelligence shouldn't be in there i' I'd speak to the officer um on the telephone one of the two calls they
01:04:38 the telephone one of the two calls they make every day and say are you sure this is correct or you mean this and uh if they came
01:04:52 or you mean this and uh if they came back and said yes that's what I I want to say then I send it for typing does that include um once the typed up report had been received by you and before you submitted it
01:05:11 up um no I would have done that before it was
01:05:19 typed you've also said you don't know if anyone had authority to edit the report um but do I take from what we've discussed just a moment ago that there were opportunities for you for example to remove information if you discussed it with the undercover officer
01:05:37 beforehand uh I can't recall any specific um time when I did that but in general terms would it does it does it follow from your evidence
01:05:49 it does it follow from your evidence that it would have been possible for you to have removed information from reports if you'd agreed it with that particular yes yes um would the DI or the DCI not
01:06:00 yes yes um would the DI or the DCI not also have authority to edit the reports in any way yes he would or they would I say um you were asked in your statement
01:06:19 say um you were asked in your statement about a comment which um Bob Lambert has made which alluded to what he called a sanitization process you say in your statement that you can't recall such a process is it possible
01:06:31 is it possible that he was alluding to any any any process that you can recall no I can't recall that when giving evidence to inquiry Lambert said that it was routine
01:06:43 Lambert said that it was routine practice for managers to edit reports do you agree with that
01:06:46 characterization
01:06:53 no were there any circumstances in which you would remove or query any information that you would considered
01:07:12 irrelevant uh probably but I can't recall anything specific but I'd like to bring up um a document now please ucpi
01:07:14 ucpi 19617 so it's B6 in your bundle Mr CCH this is an intelligence
01:07:27 bundle Mr CCH this is an intelligence report from the officer we're calling hn 67 so again please consult your Cipher key to refresh your
01:07:33 memory uh it's a report from October 1983 I'll just give you a moment have you have you refreshed your memory as to thank you um so what we can see in the top right the date of the report 18 October
01:07:42 October 1983 and we can see at the bottom of this report that it's one that's signed by DCI
01:07:48 by DCI Barber um it's a short report I'd just like to quickly could we have a look at paragraph two please
01:08:02 it reads this privacy a member of privacy branch of the Socialist Workers Party is currently resident at privacy he is employed on a casual basis at the swp print shop and then it gives the address so we're seeing their name um
01:08:17 address so we're seeing their name um address employment details can we bring up paragraph three
01:08:29 please it says this he is a homosexual and is regarded in gay circles as an unstable and over emotional
01:08:36 partner just looking back at the date of this report October 1983 this would have been when you were the admin Sergeant in the unit that's right isn't it yes that's right yes
01:08:50 right isn't it yes that's right yes sir um do you have having now looked at this report a specific recollection of this report no I don't but do you accept though that it's likely given that you were the admin Sergeant at this time
01:09:01 were the admin Sergeant at this time that this report probably came across your desk it probably did yes focusing then on paragraph
01:09:15 yes focusing then on paragraph three what was the purpose did you think of reporting the sexual orientation of this
01:09:26 individual uh well that he's unreliable why do you say that well it says in on on the third
01:09:38 that well it says in on on the third paragraphs doesn't it that U apart from being homosexual and over emotional partner yeah just focusing on the the first aspect where it says he is a
01:09:54 first aspect where it says he is a homosexual what to your mind was the purpose of reporting that piece of intelligence about this person um
01:09:56 person um I don't
01:09:57 I don't know there was um none I
01:10:11 know there was um none I suppose in today's climate maybe there was 40 years ago but I don't think so the second aspect then of this paragraph regarded in gay circles as an unstable and over emotional partner that's irrelevant information isn't it
01:10:26 [Music]
01:10:35 uh well I that he's not trusted within his own party I'd say that that was relevant it doesn't say any words to that effect would you have expected to see that if it followed that this
01:10:46 see that if it followed that this individual was someone who was not trusted within that
01:10:53 group uh yes I what to say yes this is very it's very personal reporting isn't it about this individual it is yes and it doesn't even read as being something that is actually firsthand
01:11:09 intelligence no I suppose not it's gossip isn't it
01:11:17 it yes there's no intelligence value in the entirety of what's being reported in paragraph 3 is there I say not it doesn't enable someone to to
01:11:31 not it doesn't enable someone to to assess the public order threat that is posed by this individual does it no or by the
01:11:41 swp no it's gone it's been put through so nothing we could do about that what do you think your view would have been at the time reading this in the draft report
01:12:05 well I can't recall reading in the first place
01:12:14 place um but it might I mean just with Mike Barber might well have um
01:12:19 um uh submitted that cuz he used to check reports as well um before they were typed out but I other than that I can't answer that with any
01:12:32 any certainty do you think that this has been something that you would have spoken to someone about or challenged with the officer reporting this
01:12:44 information probably
01:12:55 not does the lack of concern about this information on the part of you or any others who were dealing with this report is that indicative of an attitude within the unit towards reporting on the private lives of
01:13:10 individuals no I think
01:13:17 um private life of individuals would be important at that
01:13:25 time was the lack of concern by you and others who dealt with this report indicative of an attitude in the unit towards homosexual people no I don't think so and why did you say
01:13:48 that well I've never heard any homophobic language from anyone in the office
01:13:49 office or
01:13:51 or um undercover officers
01:14:02 whatsoever we're going to take that down now please and bring up another report ucpi
01:14:06 ucpi 19565 so that should be tab one in your supplementary bundle uh this is also dated October
01:14:19 1983 um it's a report uh which has been attributed to Roger Pierce um I'm not proposing to take you through all it it's it's quite lengthy there's there's only just one as of it I want to explore with you if we could just um highlight the date just to orientate ourselves
01:14:32 orientate ourselves please 4th of October
01:14:40 1983 um could we please have a look at paragraph
01:14:47 2 on the evening of Friday the 30th September 1983 Iris Mills delivered a speech entitled anarchism and feminism at the Mary Ward center Queens Square w see one about 25 persons attended the
01:14:59 see one about 25 persons attended the number of bulky impassioned feminists greatly outnumbering the small group of nervous defensive men the meeting attracted little Anarchist interest um again focusing on the date
01:15:15 interest um again focusing on the date of this report it's also October 1983 so does it follow then that this is a report which is likely to have come across your desk it's probably yeah yeah do you have a specific recollection of this report at all no I don't
01:15:29 this report at all no I don't know just with regards to paragraph two and the expression bulky impassion feminists Roger Pierce in his evidence to the inquiry accepted that there was no justification for the inclusion of that term would you agree
01:15:43 that term would you agree yes he also said that there was no challenge uh to him to the use of this phrase by his managers given that it appears in the
01:16:00 managers given that it appears in the final and signed version of the report can we take that he is right about that uh yes sir is that lack of challenge to the inclusion of this
01:16:11 inclusion of this expression indicative of an attitude in the unit towards
01:16:24 women well it's using that sort of language you can only say
01:16:26 only say yes but
01:16:33 um I must say Roger um was certainly had
01:16:40 any
01:16:44 um
01:16:55 uh any um ill feeling towards women what's ever and uh he he tended to put some sort of humor but he thought was humor maybe and maybe into some of his
01:17:06 maybe into some of his reports would you have found reading phrases like this amusing no it it just it was the sort of language that maybe was used 40 years
01:17:23 was used 40 years ago would others reading this report have found the use of that phrase amusing
01:17:29 well I don't know we can take that down now please um next topic Mr couch is the security
01:17:38 security service you say in your witness statement that you didn't have any dealings with the security service is that
01:17:46 that right at that time yes would that have included attending any meetings at which they were were
01:18:05 present um I can't recall uh any meetings where they were present would that have included attending any debriefings by the security services of undercover offices uh yes that would include that yeah and and would that have
01:18:20 yeah and and would that have included uh making or receiving phone calls from the security service
01:18:29 I think at that time it was generally uh the dis that had responsibility for liasing with the security service and not just the SDs
01:18:42 security service and not just the SDs that would be uh on the main branch and the
01:18:43 the main
01:18:45 main uh
01:18:54 uh yeah you said sorry generally sergeants and DCS wouldn't have contact with the security service in those days you you said that you would compile copies of all of the reports to be sent to the security
01:19:06 to the security service um did you ever have sight of any of any feedback from
01:19:15 them not that I remember did you have any awareness in general of the assistance that SDS reporting provided to the security service
01:19:25 not personally
01:19:37 no going then on to the topic of management oversight of undercover officers
01:19:42 officers um we've touched already on the twice daily call and you've said that that would invariably have come into you or or the other DS in the back office um and I think you you you agreed with
01:19:56 um and I think you you you agreed with the characterization I put to you of um DCI weight that it essentially those calls constituted saying that they were alive and well and saying how things were going yes that's
01:20:08 were going yes that's correct um what would how things were going commonly
01:20:19 include well they could have they could have mentioned any problems whatsoever that they wanted to um regarding not just undercover Poli but if they had other problems and they wanted to talk about it then they
01:20:30 wanted to talk about it then they could did did the purpose of the call include ensuring that they were safe yes oh that was the main purpose um would undercover officers
01:20:46 purpose um would undercover officers have informed you on those phone calls if they were staying away from their cover
01:20:50 address no they might but not necessarily
01:21:03 no they might but not necessarily so they could they could say I'm with my undercover addressed tonight or more often more often than not they wouldn't um given that one of the purposes was ensuring that the undercover officers were safe would you have expected them to have told you if
01:21:17 have expected them to have told you if they were staying away from their cover address no why not so if they if they were sure of they where they should be then they could
01:21:31 where they should be then they could easily come back and say look I'm not happy going to my undercover address tonight
01:21:33 tonight is but they they didn't need our permission it's very difficult to supervise when you when you can't um well
01:21:45 you when you can't um well we we never visited the their home addresses their undercover addresses none of us
01:21:59 from an oversight perspective would you have reported back to the managers anything of concern that arose from those daily phone
01:22:12 arose from those daily phone calls yes but we're all in the same office um and they could hear us we could all hear us talking to them so I wouldn't
01:22:29 them so I wouldn't say hello Roger hello Terry or whatever and D the dco and were just sitting at desks as we are now this sort of size so they could hear if there was any problems and I I would of course tell them if there was any
01:22:43 them if there was any problems and what were the particular types of problems that you would more commonly encounter on these daily phone calls very very rarely anything
01:22:54 calls very very rarely anything they all seem pretty happy and we're
01:23:04 all yeah um I think if they had real problems there they could easily
01:23:15 problems there they could easily um come in uh uh and talk one toone to the senior officers which they did very
01:23:28 occasionally turning then to the weekly twice weekly meetings um we've already addressed that your role at those meetings at least included collecting the reports and um if you were on the finance side any expenses claims um
01:23:41 finance side any expenses claims um you've described in your statement that a portion of that would be what you call an open meeting where the DCI discussed upcoming policing needs is that right
01:23:56 upcoming policing needs is that right yes yes that's right yeah um would that include directing the tasking of particular officers at that
01:24:02 meeting um but yes yeah they they wouldn't actually be directed but um there would be if there was a big demonstration and we wanted to know about a particular
01:24:19 we wanted to know about a particular group um we had officers who infiltrated that group um then they would be expected
01:24:23 expected to they wouldn't actually be told you must do this they they'll just do it it's it's like an informal um order if you
01:24:39 you like but they knew very well what what was needed and we needed to know how many people would like to be on the demonstration from that group what of troublemakers have we got so we could
01:24:54 troublemakers have we got so we could report back to our C sad generally and they could um leas with our uniform colleagues um to get the correct amount of policing um to cover the
01:25:05 policing um to cover the demonstration did officers also report their int intelligence or at these open sessions I gather from the evidence you've given earlier that probably was the case
01:25:16 the case yes um did officers discuss individuals within their target groups at these open sessions
01:25:35 no I don't think so they they might have but I can't really be sure on that but so they they would certainly
01:25:42 um if it wasn't in the open meeting they they
01:25:43 they could certainly tell
01:25:47 tell um the DCI or the DI um this is who's likely to be the makers here
01:25:59 here and they'll be with this particular group of
01:26:00 group of people is this likely to have been in the the private onet to ones that you've described in your statement between the officer and the the DI
01:26:13 DCI
01:26:26 um I can't recall them name has been in the open meeting so yes probably were you ever privy to these private onetoone meetings
01:26:36 meetings no did you ever find out subsequently what would have been discussed at these private
01:26:42 private meetings no they never came back to us did you ever get a sense of the types of discussions that would have been taking place at these private onetoone meetings
01:26:55 meetings uh well
01:26:57 uh well they only
01:27:04 they only um well I would have guessed that's all that it was um are you okay with your private life and then how you getting on within this particular group and uh what sense of quality
01:27:19 and uh what sense of quality uh intelligence you can give you've described that there would often be some socializing at the safe house once the the main meeting was done is
01:27:34 once the the main meeting was done is that right a little bit yes but not an awful lot because a lot lot of the undercover officers would have meetings to go to or go to
01:27:46 to go to or go to undercover uh fla rooms so it would break
01:27:47 break up um there would be the odd beer or coffee and trun and there'll be little groups around just generally
01:28:02 groups around just generally chitchatting after the after the open meeting
01:28:12 meeting um and that was yes and then well a lot of them would be driving as well so there'
01:28:17 there' be very little drink or anything um taken if any what sort of things would you speak about in these social parts of the uh Safe House
01:28:35 meetings uh we talk about anything and everything not necessarily work
01:28:43 work um just generally um bringing them back to reality a bit I suppose would any of the discussions about work have been about the groups or individuals that they were reporting on
01:28:54 no not
01:29:01 generally um I think you've described your statement that occasionally some of the officers would go to the pub afterwards is that
01:29:11 right uh before probably before yes um and often on those occasions would you drink alcohol
01:29:28 uh if we weren't driving some would uh to excess
01:29:37 no you've described in your witness statement that uh from time to time groups of you in the unit word uh partaking sporting activities I think
01:29:48 partaking sporting activities I think you've described squash and and binton going for a run is that right that's right yeah and would that just be a mixture of people from the unit so management back office staff officers
01:30:01 um well Tony W was a great swimmer but he would he would
01:30:08 swim at lunchtime occasionally um from the office not from the office but in the local swimming pool um and a small group of
01:30:15 group of us would go running uh in Battery Park and there's a track there which we used [Music]
01:30:35 [Music] um four or five I should think of us in the group um yeah what was the primary purpose of undertaking these sorts of activities about building the the welfare amongst the unit yes just that yes and the camaraderie yes was it effective at doing these things I think
01:30:50 effective at doing these things I think so thank you Mr couch and so looking at the time I wonder whether now would be an opportune moment for our mid morning break so we'll break for 15 minutes to enable the short handw writers the transcribers to have a necessary rest and you as
01:31:02 and you as well
01:31:22 right
01:48:21 e e
01:49:20 Mr couch as we resume again can I just double check that you can both see and hear me yes I can sir thank you um earlier we touched on an aspect of your role being traveling with the di or the
01:49:37 being traveling with the di or the DCI uh outside of the Metropolitan Police
01:49:41 Police District you say in your statement that the purpose of that would have been to provide cover for undercover officers uh attending demonstrations or hunts is that right yes that's right sir just in case um
01:49:53 case um there was any problems and they were arrested um for any reason um we would be there to to assist the local police and uh
01:50:05 and uh hopefully uh make good uh the problem does it follow that managers
01:50:21 problem does it follow that managers were particularly concerned then about the risk to under cover officers of being arrested undertaking these activities
01:50:30 yes you you've you've mentioned a moment ago that the the purpose was to provide some degree of cover and I think in your statement you'd say you said you would see what you could do about it um what would that
01:50:46 would that be well if they were arrested that was the main purpose or certainly if they were in some sort of uh disturbance fight uh and they could be hospitalized we could assist there or certainly if
01:50:59 we could assist there or certainly if they were arrested that was the main the main
01:51:04 main reason um and well they all always knew that to be on the edge of any violence at all and U be particularly careful not to get involved unless they're forced into
01:51:20 into it when you attended um these trips outside of the Metropolitan Police District did you were you ever involved in a situation where you had to take the action that you've described in connection with an officer being arrested for example
01:51:38 no um moving then to the topic of um overtime and expenses um you said that in your statement that you didn't deal with overtime at all in respective undercar
01:51:55 overtime at all in respective undercar officers is that right yes that would be the uh the DCI of the DI would sign there uh overtime away yes and and have have I understood it correctly that they would authorize payments of overtime which
01:52:08 authorize payments of overtime which exceeded whatever cap there was in place at the at the time uh very rarely would they um exceed the the cap as you say
01:52:24 the the cap as you say um but if there was a a reason then so be
01:52:26 be it you've said in your statement that overtime pay constituted a significant component of what undercover officers
01:52:38 component of what undercover officers officers were paid is that right yes it was yeah uh how did you know
01:52:44 this uh but it was um it was common knowledge within the management side of things that they should try and keep their overtime down
01:52:59 should try and keep their overtime down to I can't remember exactly what but uh within
01:53:00 within reason but if they came out with um a reason where look it's say it's a party um meeting over a
01:53:11 um meeting over a weekend um I'm going to be stuck in there for 24 hours or 48 hours or 72 hours you know um what am I going to do about that in that case um I'm pretty
01:53:29 about that in that case um I'm pretty sure that the DCI or the DI would say okay the fact of overtime being a significant component though of their pay how did you come to know this was it something it was because it was something that was talked about in the
01:53:41 something that was talked about in the back office or the undercover officers it was talked about generally yes yeah in what
01:53:50 in what terms uh
01:53:53 terms uh well informally I suppose um but certainly I was aware of um the cap rough roughly what it was and that they should keep within that if at all
01:54:06 should keep within that if at all possible um but I as I said I wouldn't sign it off it would be it would be the senior officers to sign it do you
01:54:21 it do you recall the cap on overtime hours being reduced in or around November
01:54:28 1986 no could we pull up please MPS 0728
01:54:41 no could we pull up please MPS 0728 977 this is the SDS annual report from 1987 uh page nine please once that's been brought
01:54:53 up and paragraph 12 we can
01:54:54 we can see is headed overtime restrictions I'm not going to read all of it um but just starting from the top it says in line
01:55:08 starting from the top it says in line with the restrictions placed on special Branch as a whole overtime incurred by field offices was reduced on two occasions during the year by adjusted working patterns reductions from an average figure of 160 hours per month at the beginning of the year to 120 in November were achieved however this
01:55:21 November were achieved however this created severe problems in terms of moral and the security of the SDS operation but has been met with a general degree of
01:55:37 willingness do you recall any issues relating to morale as a consequence of the reduce uh the reduction in the cap of
01:55:58 overtime uh I don't recall that it was r but it certainly would in my opinion have caused morale to to drop Did You observe any reduction in morale in the unit connected with overtime only General Moy I expect
01:56:12 overtime only General Moy I expect that's can you recall if any steps were taken to
01:56:19 taken to manage that uh perceived drop in morale no I don't recall it I must say
01:56:32 no I don't recall it I must say I always thought the overtime cap was below that but if that's fact then um which it obviously is
01:56:43 um did you ever have any or or others in the in the office ever have any reason to be concerned about the number of hours uh that were being worked and claimed by undercover officers
01:56:57 no I thought they were doing a very dangerous and very difficult job and they deserved everything they got that document can come down now um we're going to turn to the question of expenses we've addressed already your
01:57:10 expenses we've addressed already your evidence that this would have been the role predominantly of the detective Sergeant the responsible for financial matters that's right isn't it yes sir and I think you've addressed this
01:57:24 sir and I think you've addressed this already but their part of their job was at the weekly meetings to take any claims for expenses from the undercover officers is that right yes they would uh if I recall
01:57:44 right yes they would uh if I recall rightly um Mondays they would put claims in to me or whoever the financial Sergeant
01:57:49 Sergeant was and then they would be taken back to the office at Vincent square and uh well they'd be signed sorry they'd be signed off by the DI or DCI checking the
01:58:09 signed off by the DI or DCI checking the books in the safe house and then we take it back to to vincon square um and I would
01:58:10 would write uh
01:58:12 write uh requests to our finance department uh and collect the money and it would be distributed then on the Thursday that was the
01:58:23 Thursday that was the general purpose did you require any receipts or other evidence in support of the expenses that officers were
01:58:36 of the expenses that officers were claiming uh certainly with regards to petrol but with what Publications and subscriptions no that was would been very difficult for them if found to be
01:58:50 very difficult for them if found to be hopeless so for those types of expenses claims they would write write a note essentially setting out the the value and then what the what it was incurred in relation to
01:59:02 it was incurred in relation to Yes um you've covered I think some of the expenses that were generally claimed already you've mentioned petrol um did that also include any repair costs to their
01:59:15 their vehicles yes I I can't recall again this is
01:59:22 um uh if they had the the car repaired yes uh privately they would submit the bill to to me I suppose if I can recall uh and then they would be
01:59:35 uh and then they would be reimbursed did it include any cost incurred as a result of traveling outside of the Metropolitan Police District but petrol wise or or any Associated expenses accommodation and so
01:59:57 on uh yeah would have done yes aside from those were there any sorts of expenses that you found were sort of generally claimed by
02:00:03 officers
02:00:09 uh I think
02:00:23 um with regard regards to food if they were working a vast amount of overtime they could claim a subsistance which would include
02:00:32 meals were there any circumstances in which an expense would not have been
02:00:38 approved uh not that I recall you can't recall any examples of that occuring no no was there any degree of audit or due diligence carried out on
02:00:50 of audit or due diligence carried out on what undercover officers within the unit were claiming as expenses uh at the end of the year a senior officer from the finance department would come over and check all our books and
02:01:01 and receipts uh this is oh it's at the end of the end of the financial year I mean so the end of March and he'd come in generally the early days of April
02:01:13 generally the early days of April and go through the books and say yes it's correct or well he never came back in my time to say they were
02:01:26 in my time to say they were incorrect would you bearing in mind what you've said already about receipts and and other evidence would you have been able to ascertain if an undercover officer was claiming for something that they should not have
02:01:44 been be very difficult did you ever become aware or suspect that an undercover officer was claiming expenses for something they should not have been
02:01:59 should not have been no does the term pubs and Subs mean anything to you in the context of expenses claims yes it does Publications and Subs
02:02:09 and Subs subscriptions and what what did that in what was
02:02:13 what was that well they purchased a copy of the Socialist
02:02:14 Socialist worker uh and subscriptions
02:02:25 worker uh and subscriptions to uh Finance the group that they were infiltrating uh and they would claim that
02:02:34 weakly turning then to the next topic which is undercover officers having sexual relationships and their cover identities you've said in your witness statement that you always had the
02:02:47 statement that you always had the impression that sexual relationships were unacceptable and not to be encouraged is that right yes that's correct
02:02:52 correct are you able to say whether that impression was shared by others within the
02:02:57 the unit yes I think so DCI waight in his evidence to the inquiry expressed that there may have
02:03:09 inquiry expressed that there may have been an attitude in the unit that sexual relationships were inevitable do you agree with that characterization h
02:03:26 it would be very difficult for the officers to turn down uh an invitation if a member of the opposite sex was
02:03:38 opposite sex was Keen I suppose so but it certainly was encouraged uh
02:03:52 and sorry go on Sir why do you say it would have been very difficult for them to have turned down the invitation as you
02:03:53 you say it would make if if the guys and the girls were were keen on
02:04:07 guys and the girls were were keen on each other and and happy together um to turn it down might turn the woman as it was then
02:04:20 against
02:24:49 e e
02:25:30 for once a short 10 minutes there will be no disclosure or publication made of information stated during the hearing today between 12:17 and 12:19 both times inclusive okay thank you sir Mr couch we're going to turn to
02:25:43 sir Mr couch we're going to turn to another topic now um which is SDS under undercover officers committing criminal offenses in their cover
02:25:56 offenses in their cover ID you say in your witness statement you were not made aware of any undercover officers committing a criminal offense whilst undercover is that right yes correct so yeah and you also say that you were not made aware of any
02:26:07 you were not made aware of any undercover officers being arrested or summonsed in their cover identities is that right yes sir um I'd like to bring up please MPS 0526 786
02:26:20 0526 786 it's your bundle B7 um this is a report from September 1984 concerning the arrest of the individual we are calling
02:26:34 individual we are calling hn9 please consult your Cipher key and do not say the name aloud ex sir yes well now that's been brought up can we turn to page three
02:26:48 please um we only need to really focus on paragraph two just to get a sense of what this is about uh on Tuesday the 11th of September 1984 at 9:45 p.m. at the
02:27:04 September 1984 at 9:45 p.m. at the elephant and Castle pedestrian Precinct se1 while promoting activities of the Revolutionary Communist party the following person was arrested for a legal bill posting contrary to section 5410 Metropolitan Police act 1839 that provides the name sharing Steven Malcolm Thomas which is hn1 19's
02:27:17 Steven Malcolm Thomas which is hn1 19's uh cover identity date of birth address an occupation can you see that there yes sir reflecting then on the date September
02:27:29 September 1984 does it follow that this was a report which would have come across your
02:27:43 desk uh I don't recall it but it might want it done yeah is it likely that it might have done bearing in mind the date of
02:27:52 of it bearing mind the date uh
02:27:54 uh [Music]
02:28:03 je um yes it could have but I don't Rec it yeah is it likely though that you were therefore probably a aware of hn1 19's arrest at this time I don't
02:28:21 time I don't remember might you have been aware at the time though no I don't think so if we could just um zoom out for a second please and go to the very top where there is a handwritten um annotation um can you
02:28:32 annotation um can you see there at the top there's a handwritten annotation that says place a copy on the arrests file and it's signed by DCI weight can you see that there yeah I can see that so
02:28:48 yeah I can see that so y would that have been a direction to you
02:28:59 not that I recall do you recall what the reference to the arrests file might have
02:29:09 been no I don't recall um might it have been a a file concerning the arrest of undercover officers for example that's what I assume it means but I don't
02:29:21 but I don't recall would having an arrest file in the back
02:29:25 the back office would the existence of such a file
02:29:32 file imply that the arrests of undercover officers were both known about and common within the unit no why did you say that well I didn't know that
02:29:45 it um we can take that down now please you say in your statement that you weren't aware of undercover officers ever ever appearing as a a defendant or witness in criminal proceedings is that right that's right so
02:29:59 right that's right so yeah um I'm just going to bring up um two sections from hn1 19's witness statement again this was the officer we were just speaking about again just
02:30:11 were just speaking about again just refresh your memory but please don't say the name um the reference is uh MPS 07477
02:30:14 07477 one0 and we'll turn to page 68 please
02:30:21 paragraph
02:30:32 173 um at this paragraph h119 says this I did witness violence to people or property whilst serving undercover with the SS I'm not sure there were so many examples I saw bricks thrown at the window of a coach traveling to a
02:30:48 window of a coach traveling to a conference in Leicester as the rightwing got wind of it um can we then please go to uh page 7 23
02:31:04 please uh paragraph
02:31:18 192 where it says this I did not provide any evidence for use in any prosecution arising from my undercover deployment the office was careful to avoid a suggest suggestion that that might happen in the coach incident I've described above I observed the identity of the person who threw the brick and I included their name in my report the
02:31:33 included their name in my report the office edited it out at some point it arose in discussion and detective inspector couch told me it had been edited out no words or explanation were offered and I accepted it had been edited
02:31:44 edited out bearing in mind what has been said there first of all do you have any particular recollection of speaking to
02:32:05 recollection of speaking to hn9 about removing names from any of his reporting to this effect no for a start is not I'm not a detective I was not a detective
02:32:10 detective inspector is it possible that he could have been confusing you with somebody else it's
02:32:12 else it's possible but um I don't
02:32:24 possible but um I don't recall that at all um give given role at the time which was still as the admin Sergeant is it possible that you you might have um given provided him an explanation of why the that information was excluded from the final version of his
02:32:37 report well I certainly wouldn't have removed it no but might you have explained to him as he says here um it's where it says couch told me it had been
02:32:48 where it says couch told me it had been edited out no words or explanation were offered and I accepted it had been edited out so whether or not it was your decision might you have just explained that to
02:33:04 that to him uh it could have happened well you know uh but it would have been edited out by one of the senior officers
02:33:17 officers um uh on the grounds I would assume that it was a minor event and uh if he ended up giving evidence at court it could blow his
02:33:22 blow his cover but other than that I have no idea was it common for the SDS at this time to have edited information out in order to prevent undercover off int undercover officer Intelligence being used as part of a prosecution no not the L
02:33:42 you next topic then Mr couch is welfare you've we've addressed already some of the aspects of welfare support that you say were intrig to your role The Daily Calls making yourself
02:33:57 The Daily Calls making yourself available to the undercover officers and so on um aside from those what other ways did the unit seek to safeguard the welfare of undercover
02:34:11 officers uh well apart from the weekly meetings and the phone
02:34:25 from the weekly meetings and the phone calls they all had access to all the Met Poli welfare system if they so desired
02:34:27 desired um and that was something that existed outside of the SDS is that right that's correct yes yes they would be civilian stuff me yes civilian
02:34:43 stuff me yes civilian staff you've referred in your statement to the fact that a Christmas dinner would sometimes be organized um for members of the unit which would also be attended
02:34:54 which would also be attended by Partners family members of undercover officers is that right oh yes yeah would you have met and socialized with the partners and family
02:35:09 members yes well I would have been there with my wife yes you've said in your statement in retrospect I believe there should have been more processes in place
02:35:26 should have been more processes in place to safeguard the welfare of uos as their role of assuming a cover identity for a prolong period of time was a difficult one do you recall saying
02:35:33 that who this this is this is in your statement Mr couch oh in my
02:35:42 statement would you allow me to read the passage back to you oh no this is sorry yes the document can come down now that was that's my mistake I'm just going to read aloud to you something you've said in your statement it's about welfare
02:35:53 in your statement it's about welfare okay you you say in retrospect I believe there should have been more processes in
02:36:05 there should have been more processes in place to safeguard the welfare of uos as their role of assuming a cover identity for a prolonged period of time was a difficult
02:36:09 difficult one yes I can see that yeah what what what led you to say
02:36:21 that well you can never get too much care with when you're doing a difficult job that they were doing
02:36:31 and so any any more assistance they could be given should should have been considered perhaps the implication from from that bit of your statement is
02:36:47 from that bit of your statement is perhaps that you felt that the welfare provision wasn't sufficient is that a fair characterization of that well
02:36:53 it was a a different world I suppose then
02:37:03 um you just got on with it
02:37:10 it uh there was wasn't the the huge backup that they've got these
02:37:19 days hn12 please consult your key um and and don't say the name
02:37:30 aloud yes you address hn12 in your witness statement you say that you were aware that he had a nervous breakdown and a drink related health problem in his witness statement to the inquiry he um we don't need to turn it
02:37:43 inquiry he um we don't need to turn it up um but it's at paragraphs 20 and 22 of ucpi
02:37:48 of ucpi 29190 in in that statement he attributes his heavy drinking and alcohol po addiction to high levels of stress he experienced whilst deployed you say in your statement that
02:37:59 deployed you say in your statement that he never discussed these issues with you is that right yes that's right yeah whether or not he discussed them
02:38:10 yeah whether or not he discussed them directly with you did you have reason to believe or suspect that he may have had an alcohol related health problem not that I witnessed no but he had he was in a very stressful group
02:38:21 had he was in a very stressful group did you ever have reason to believe or suspect that his welfare might have been at
02:38:30 risk it wasn't
02:38:39 obvious we're going to turn up another document now please um MPS 0726
02:38:40 0726 910 so it's your supplementary bundle tab two and we'll go to page five please of that document
02:38:53 um this is a report from September 1984 in which hn12 is reporting that he has fallen Under Suspicion from members of his group as possibly being a police
02:39:05 group as possibly being a police Informer I'm just that's a summary of the report I'm just I'm only going to draw out the the the relevant bits if we could highlight please um paragraph four
02:39:28 where it reads the allegations against me as given by privacy are as follows and then uh ran numeral four it says it was considered that I drank too much as other members had smelled alcohol on my breath when I
02:39:47 smelled alcohol on my breath when I arrived for meetings since I employed as a van driver they felt that this may be liable to Blackmail or coercion by the police
02:39:51 first of all do you have any recollection of uh these allegations being made to h& 12 by members of his Target
02:39:58 Target group no I [Music]
02:40:01 [Music] don't
02:40:03 don't would these allegations from his group as reported here have given rise to any concerns within the unit about hn12
02:40:24 drinking yes um sorry go what what what what concerns would they have
02:40:33 been well drink Drive drink driving for a start
02:40:35 start uh do do I take it from your evidence you don't have a specific recollection of of this being an issue within the unit no I don't um if we can scroll up P
02:40:46 unit no I don't um if we can scroll up P please to the same document it it's page
02:41:01 three uh this we don't need to read all of it but just to summarize it it's it's a memo uh from DCI weight um about this particular incident so hn12 being um confronted it it sets out some of the steps that are being taken um by the
02:41:14 steps that are being taken um by the unit I'm particularly interested please in paragraph four if we could um blow that
02:41:19 that up it says this the security arrangement which have been made of necessity conflict with the needs of the officer himself he is under some pressure feeling unreasonably that he has failed he is in need of support and this is being provided by meeting with
02:41:38 being provided by meeting with individual SDS officers mainly from the office on a daily basis it is hoped by this means to help him over the difficult period which he is going
02:41:52 difficult period which he is going through the reference to individual SDS officers mainly from the office is that a reference to you and detective Sergeant
02:42:17 hm45 no I don't think so who might that have been a reference to bearing in mind it it refers to SS officers mainly from the office without giving specific names but who I don't think it was addressed
02:42:33 but who I don't think it was addressed to me cuz I don't recall I I knew um he had
02:42:35 had problems
02:42:37 problems um but I don't recall going to see him on a daily basis at all does it seem possible from this
02:42:50 at all does it seem possible from this section that I've just read to you that you Andor dsh M45 may have been um uh providing support and assistance to
02:43:11 him uh I don't recall it at all but we can we can take that document down now
02:43:16 down now please um the officer Stefan Scott yes um joined the unit in around October 1985
02:43:29 1985 what was did you have a view of Stephan scut as a
02:43:31 scut as a person no I liked it I thought he was a good officer what about as an undercover officer I thought he did
02:43:50 officer I thought he did well initially anyway and [Music]
02:43:51 [Music] uh I can't remember the date you said I'm sorry but um I think I left not long after he
02:43:58 after he joined um we understand to have joined in October 1985 so there would have been on our understanding some crossover between the two of you yeah there
02:44:10 between the two of you yeah there was DCI wait in his witness statement that described Scot secretive and enigmatic would you agree with that characterization at all secretive certainly what do you mean by
02:44:24 certainly what do you mean by enigmatic well let's let's focus on secretive for the time being how what leads you to agree with that description of him uh he was
02:44:40 him uh he was very U uh careful about talking about his private
02:44:49 life it's right um as I think we've touched on that Scott left the SDS after you had already left the unit yes do you recall hearing anything at the time
02:45:03 recall hearing anything at the time about the circumstances in which Stephan Scutt left the SDS no I don't recall that but I I understood there was problems
02:45:13 problems with well I was told
02:45:20 vetting problems but um I don't know anything other than that okay well we'll move on then to another topic this is actually the uh
02:45:31 another topic this is actually the uh final topic that I want to go through with you today it's uh operation sparkler uh this is a reference to the investigation into the placing of
02:45:42 investigation into the placing of incendiary devices in branches of deams in July
02:45:43 in July 1987
02:45:48 1987 yeah you've dealt with this in your main statement but also in your um sub
02:45:59 statement but also in your um sub shorter supplementary statement that you gave us yes sir um you tell us that you had you left the SDS in July 1987 yeah
02:46:02 1987 yeah um yes I've not got documentation here but uh if it's on the record there yes a and by the 12th of July 1987 you certainly had left the the SDS
02:46:20 1987 you certainly had left the the SDS that's your recollection isn't it yes um so does it follow then that the placing of the incendiary devices can only have happened quite a short time after you left the unit yes sir um just just rewinding VOD briefly
02:46:39 sir um just just rewinding VOD briefly to look at Bob Lambert specifically in this context um he joined the unit in September
02:46:45 September 1983 um so it follows then that he was in the back office predeployment when you were there that's right isn't it I
02:47:01 you were there that's right isn't it I think so yes do you recall that he had an extended period in the back office than as compared to other undercover officers no I don't recall that regardless he uh Bob Lambert would have spent a
02:47:12 he uh Bob Lambert would have spent a significant degree of time with you in the back office preparing for his deployment yes he would what was your view of Lambert the man
02:47:22 I thought he was a decent guy uh a good cop um
02:47:28 um and quite a successful undercover officer you you you liked him I lik him yeah would you describe him as sociable yes what about
02:47:44 charismatic yes
02:47:49 yes yeah I think it was a popular all right and a very keen and a and a a good
02:48:05 officer you touching on Lam as as an officer do you recall describing him as a very good police officer and very productive I don't recall saying that but I would I would agree with that yes
02:48:16 but I would I would agree with that yes well we we'll turn it up anyway it's MPS 07 37162
02:48:19 07 37162 so that's your
02:48:22 B21 um we'll go to page three
02:48:34 please so these are the notes um of U an interview that you gave uh to officers from operation sparkler um and it's it's about halfway it's the small paragraph about halfway down towards 2/3 that's the one
02:48:51 down towards 2/3 that's the one yeah it says here um hn 32 say says they were friendly with hn10 at the time but not socially hn 32 states hn10 was a very good police officer and was very productive however could not be specific around any information relating to the
02:49:05 around any information relating to the ALF um would you say that that is a fair um characterization of what you would have told the officers from operation sparker at the time yes I'd say sir very
02:49:20 sir very productive in what sense would you say sorry he provided a lot of good intelligence uh with regards to the animal Liberation Front and was productive did that more relate to the volume of intelligence that he was
02:49:32 volume of intelligence that he was providing or your assessment of the quality of that intelligence of both both and that can come down now please
02:49:47 both and that can come down now please um we'll go forward then in time to the weeks leading up to uh the 12th of July 1987 so in this period you were still a member of the
02:50:02 period you were still a member of the unit um you would not we understand have been the admin Sergeant at this time um regardless of that did you have
02:50:15 time um regardless of that did you have any insight into the volume or frequency of reporting that Lambert was providing in those weeks leading up to July 1987
02:50:25 uh well I would have known uh how much work was coming through yes and and what's your recollection of of how much oh I yeah I can't remember do you have any recollection of
02:50:36 remember do you have any recollection of the contact that Lambert was having over the telephone with members of the office at that
02:50:49 at that time no could you recall whether it was more or less frequent than Norm normal no I can't remember that and in terms of the intelligence that he was reporting at the weekly meetings any insight into
02:51:01 meetings any insight into whether there was a greater volume or frequency of that intelligence reporting during that period y do you recall anything about the
02:51:18 y do you recall anything about the frequency with which Lambert was having onetoone meetings with managers during this period period no
02:51:26 period no sorry we'll go forward again in time uh now to September 1987 um you say in your witness statement that this time you were in
02:51:38 statement that this time you were in esquad is that right yes that's right yes and you were providing cover for anti-terrorist branch you you you say this was for a particular officer please don't name them yeah I I did yeah um you
02:51:53 don't name them yeah I I did yeah um you described Your Role at the time as being a liaison between anti-terrorist branch and special branch is that right that's right
02:52:02 right Y and you described that as entailing the passing of relevant information between anti-terror branch and special Branch yes well I was say there there
02:52:19 Branch yes well I was say there there was in those days uh what we call an SB cell um in within the work in sity Terrorist branch which when I was serving there in 1980s to 83 consisted of four
02:52:33 of four officers two or three sergeants and a DC and then we had an inspector down there and a Chief Inspector okay and in your witness statement you've described
02:52:50 your witness statement you've described that DCI then DCI Eric Docker comes into your office this and says to you that Lambert's cover flat needs to be searched no he didn't come into the office he phoned me he phone to you
02:53:04 office he phoned me he phone to you forgive me yeah um would this have been shortly before the search on September the
02:53:05 the 9th
02:53:15 9th yes days I don't know the date of the the search but well of Bob's flat undercover flat yes yeah yes would so would this been a matter of days before the search was
02:53:26 matter of days before the search was carried out oh probably less than that less than that even possibly even the day before could have been but I'm not
02:53:40 sure you you say that during the course of that conversation you can't recall if if Eric Docker mentioned to you the incend device attacks is it likely that he did
02:53:55 yes you also say that it was explained that the search needed to be carried out to protect Lambert's cover is that right that's correct yes and that was because the homes of the activists he had
02:54:11 the homes of the activists he had targeted were also due to be searched at the same time that's correct sir did you conclude from this information that Lambert must have been in the eyes
02:54:27 in the eyes of those he was targeting a credible suspect for the placing of the incendiary devices no certainly not why would you
02:54:44 devices no certainly not why would you not have formed that view because he was a serving police officer and why would he risk his freedom for goodness sake forgive me Mr C my question was more directed at whether or not given that the purpose of the search was to protect his cover would it have followed that there
02:54:55 cover would it have followed that there was it was considered that those he was targeting may have felt that he was perceived by the police as a credible suspect oh sorry yes yes he
02:55:09 would you say that your role in that search was to act as a welfare officer what what was the purpose of that role well I knew Bob from obviously from the S SDS days uh and we were quite
02:55:35 S SDS days uh and we were quite friendly and it would have been like some sort of comfort blanket if you like um because the other officers involved in the search were anti-terrorist Branch officers well the so-called search it wasn't a search as
02:55:50 wasn't a search as such you call it a comfort blanket what was the perceived risk to Lambert's welfare during the course of this search
02:55:58 search oh no not that um not he wasn't going to be arrested or anything like that so so why then was there a need for a welfare
02:56:09 why then was there a need for a welfare officer well Mr Docker asked me to uh to go along as it was a friendly I was a friendly
02:56:10 friendly face and what was the benefit of this particular person being someone that was known to Bob Lambert
02:56:24 just as I've said that um he wouldn't feel
02:56:31 intimidated why would he have need to feel
02:56:38 intimidated he looked into to me when we were
02:56:41 were searching well we'll we'll come on to the search now Mr couch um you've said that all of the officers who attended the search were aware of
02:56:57 who attended the search were aware of Lambert's role as an undercover officer is that right that's right yeah so it follows then that all of the officers who
02:57:09 then that all of the officers who attended understood that the purpose was to conduct effectively a fake search of his
02:57:10 his flat
02:57:12 flat yes you describe that the door was broken in
02:57:23 that the door was broken in yes it was and on entering the flat Lambert was sat down uh in the he he he was himself sat down he was told by the DI leading the search that his flat was going to be
02:57:35 search that his flat was going to be searched to look for evidence related to his involvement in the attacks is that right that's right and your evidence was that this the because of the DI
02:57:48 that this the because of the DI understood what the true purpose of the search was this was essentially for appearance's sake yes you say that Lambert didn't respond to what the DI said to him no he
02:58:00 respond to what the DI said to him no he didn't um in fact you say that you don't recall him saying anything throughout the duration of the search is that right that's
02:58:08 that's correct um you did give some evidence a moment ago about his demeanor just returning to that can you elaborate a little bit on his presentation he he looked to me to be in shock
02:58:18 shock but whether he was or not I don't know but he obviously knew that his search the his flat was going to be
02:58:32 search the his flat was going to be searched given that you your your role was a as a welfare officer did you consider whether any
02:58:44 officer did you consider whether any steps needed to be taken by you having perceived that he was in a State of Shock
02:58:45 Shock no why not
02:58:52 well he knew we were all police officers and he knew deep down that nothing was going to happen and he was obviously I would have thought
02:59:05 would have thought concerned um that his in is the guys he gave information on were going to be arrested and he was not and how are you going to explain that but I don't know that a fact it's just my
02:59:18 just my impression you describing your statement that a search was conducted but it was cursory in nature is that right that's right yeah and that was because the purpose of the search was not to
02:59:32 purpose of the search was not to actually look for any evidence but to as to appear as if you were yes and again the same the same goes for the breaking down of the door and the DI speaking to Lambert that was all done for the sake of appearances yes you say in your
02:59:49 of appearances yes you say in your statement that was done in case somebody turned
02:59:50 turned up somebody somebody being someone that one of the activists that um Bob Lambert was
02:59:59 was targeting well not the the other two uh guys that were searched um but yes some someone remember we didn't we weren't briefed as to how many others
03:00:15 weren't briefed as to how many others were in the group yes did anyone in fact turn up no not that I know just returning to you being there
03:00:26 know just returning to you being there as someone who was known to Lambert if the purpose of conducting the fake search was so that it would look real to anybody who turned up was any thought given to the fact
03:00:37 up was any thought given to the fact that having someone present from the police who was known to Lambert might have increased the risk to him
03:00:51 no I don't think so well how would they have
03:01:00 have known well the my question is whether or not any consideration given just simply to the fact of someone being known to Lam butt being present could have materially increased the the risk to
03:01:08 him I would say no and and was that because you say in your statement that you didn't actually interact with him at any
03:01:16 any time no no I mean all the officers enrolled in the search knew he was a police
03:01:26 police officer and just just to drill down on the question of interacting with him does that include um any that includes I assume any words that you might have exchanged with
03:01:43 exchanged with him I didn't exchange any words with him any uh gestures that you might have exchanged no um knowing glances
03:01:50 glances no and you say in your statement I think he did not in fact interact with anyone that's
03:01:52 that's correct you tell us that nothing was seized from the search is
03:02:03 nothing was seized from the search is that right uh not that I know of is that because you weren't looking for anything because you didn't find anything that would constitute evidence or because you had made a decision not to seize
03:02:14 to seize anything all three
03:02:26 if you weren't looking for anything was any consideration given to the risk of this
03:02:43 approach well the whole idea as we said earlier on was if someone from his group turned up they would see pce well they weren't parked as uh uniform police cars
03:02:55 weren't parked as uh uniform police cars but there would be CID cars if feel like parked in the outside his place um and there would be I don't know how many of us between six and eight officers in his
03:03:08 officers in his flat my question is around whether or not any thought was given to the risk that if you weren't searching for anything those who had subsequently known that his flat had been searched
03:03:22 known that his flat had been searched might have been suspicious if they came across something that they thought ought to or might have been seized no there
03:03:33 seized no there was I'm I'm going to ask a document be brought up please it's MPS 0727 514 so it's in your supplementary bundle Tab
03:03:48 Tab 3 um and we'll go to page six please um these are the notes of an interview in 2013 between uh Eric Docker and officers from operation
03:04:05 sparkler um if we could scroll down slightly
03:04:16 please and and sort of zoom out again please
03:04:30 I think I might have pulled up the wrong reference there but it really relates to this same topic which is about whether or not
03:04:31 or not um I he refers in this interview I believe to um packets of cigarettes um
03:04:42 believe to um packets of cigarettes um that were present in Bob Lambert's flat that were of a similar style to those used to construct incendiary devices um does that prompt you any recollection from you
03:04:52 no
03:04:58 um you are aware I believe because you addressed it in your statement that Lambert says that during the search he observed you picking up a photograph of him and Belinda Harvey together do you
03:05:13 him and Belinda Harvey together do you recall doing so I don't remember that at all is it possible that you did no why do you say that cuz I didn't Lambert said that that photograph may have been on a bedside table or window sill does that prompt any recollection from
03:05:37 from you um do you recall any other member of the search team picking up a photograph I don't recall but they might yes it's possible then that someone may have picked the photograph up yes turning then to you reporting back to Eric Docker you said you don't recall doing it but you're sure that you would have done is that right that's right
03:05:54 yeah you said that you would have reported on how Bob Lambert seemed would that have included reporting to him your evidence that he seemed shocked I would have mentioned so yes
03:06:09 shocked I would have mentioned so yes and can you recall how Eric Docker would have responded to that no I don't I I don't remember the phone call but um
03:06:24 phone call but um I I I would most likly have have made it that's for sure would you have reported any other aspect of the
03:06:34 search um no only that um we left him in good health and
03:06:41 uh everything went well do you recall any particular questions in that conversation from Eric Docker no can you recall whether he was satisfied with the outcome as far as I'm aware he
03:06:53 outcome as far as I'm aware he was were you on any subsequent occasion involved in any search of premises that were connected with Bob
03:07:03 Lambert
03:07:11 no Mr couch thank you those are my questions for you this concludes your portion of the evidence so given the time I assume we take the lunch break yes and the the rule 10 exercise can be conducted over the lunch break thank you sir yes um we'll um break for an hour
03:07:24 sir yes um we'll um break for an hour questions may be asked of you when we come back after lunch uh but they your your evidence is almost at an end if not actually at an end okay sir
03:07:46 right
03:09:46 e e