Morning session with DCI Tony Waite, who managed the SDS from 1984-1987. Questioning focused on Bob Lambert's deployment, including his affair with 'Jackie', giving evidence in court under his cover identity, and Waite's knowledge of officers' sexual relationships. Waite admits most married officers were 'having Affairs' and wives 'accepted it as part of the work'.
00:04:28 e e
00:05:26 good morning everybody today's proceedings are going to be live streamed subject to a 15 minute delay those with recording devices May uh use them for the purpose of transmitting
00:05:37 them for the purpose of transmitting what they hear in the hearing room but only after a 15minute delay has elapsed since the event that they reporting such
00:05:49 since the event that they reporting such devices may not be used for recording or photography Mr bar thank you sir uh Mr wait just a few follow-up questions from yesterday first of all uh in relation to
00:06:04 yesterday first of all uh in relation to uh building Legends are you able to help us with whether Bob Lambert actually checked uh whether the parents of the
00:06:17 checked uh whether the parents of the deceased child whose identity he used had passed away
00:06:31 yeah we can't hear you I'm
00:06:48 afraid we missed that answer I'm afraid could you repeat it I don't know whether Bob Lamb but use that in his legend or
00:07:04 not and was the purpose of checking whether or not the deceased child's parent still alive to estimate the chances and assess the risk of someone finding
00:07:19 them I suppose so yes wouldn't checking whether they were still living at the address on the birth certificate also have helped towards the same aim
00:07:29 same aim I can see it could have done yes are you sure that the addresses were not
00:07:35 not checked no I'm not
00:07:43 sure can I move now to the question of CND and I asked you some questions yesterday about the targeting of CND I'd like to call up please document 29 299
00:08:15 this is a security service note for file about a liaison meeting which occurred on the 26 22nd of November
00:08:26 1984 and if we look at paragraphs 2 and three which deal with hn 65 and hn 88 please in relation to hn 65 it says his last major activity will be to attend
00:08:41 last major activity will be to attend the CND National Conference at Sheffield 23rd to 25th of November I handed over
00:08:53 23rd to 25th of November I handed over the brief at I discovered that this will also be useful for h88 who is attending the conference in the light of hn 88's apparent shortage of work I again questioned whether he might be better moved into s WP particularly as he is close to the headquarters Tony weight
00:09:04 close to the headquarters Tony weight agreed that he was currently somewhat underemployed but is set on making him hn6 successor in
00:09:17 hn6 successor in CND do you have any reason to doubt the accuracy of that written record no I don't believe what it
00:09:34 have the inquiry is aware that hn 88 certainly reported on CND a good deal especially so towards the end of his deployment is it in fact correct that
00:09:45 deployment is it in fact correct that h88 deployment uh involved as at least a significant strand at targeting
00:09:55 CND I can't remember now but uh it sounds if it would yes um yesterday I was asking you uh
00:10:06 yes um yesterday I was asking you uh about uh how much consideration you gave to Jackie and Mrs Lambert and you gave an answer which I'm going to read out to you it's been pointed out to me that
00:10:19 you it's been pointed out to me that it's a little ambiguous once I've read it the question is going to be have have you ever met the deceived woman Jackie the answer you gave
00:10:31 woman Jackie the answer you gave yesterday was I must confess that I do regret not giving more support to certainly to Jackie his wife who I did
00:10:46 certainly to Jackie his wife who I did know and it's it's unfortunate thing but I did not associate the man with what you've been telling me this afternoon so did you ever meet the woman who Bob Lambert deceived and we call Jackie I don't believe I ever have no
00:11:09 were you ever aware at any point either during your career in the police or indeed
00:11:15 indeed afterwards of any thought being given by the Metropolitan Police Service to informing Jackie about Bob Lambert's
00:11:27 informing Jackie about Bob Lambert's true identity and providing maintenance to their child TB yes I don't know think they
00:11:38 did can I move now to the question of the Lambert's marriage uh you have said in your witness statement uh that it was a good marriage and that you did not think that his affair impinged on
00:11:55 his affair impinged on it could you help explain why it is that you think Bob Lambert deceiving uh Jackie whilst under cover did not affect his
00:12:16 marriage I think she realized that it shouldn't most of the other officers as well were married and somewhere having Affairs I
00:12:18 Affairs I know but it didn't affect a good marriage because they accepted it as part of the
00:12:29 part of the work and as far as Bob bamber's wife who I I met on a few social occasions I don't think he ever bothered her and she probably didn't think he would go astray the way he
00:12:43 would go astray the way he did could just to clarify first of all which other officers were having Affairs in their undercover identities well you
00:12:58 in their undercover identities well you have told me the names of the people and I can't do that off hand now but I didn't know it the time uh and in terms of Mrs Lambert to the best of your knowledge did she know at the
00:13:12 did she know at the time don't know that did you ever say anything to her about the affair no or the risk of undercover police officers engaging in sexual activity
00:13:27 undercover I could have said something about the stresses and strain we put their marriage under but we let them come into SDS yes but uh specifically no
00:13:38 come into SDS yes but uh specifically no can you help us with what you might have alluded
00:13:45 alluded to don't think I can other than say you know if you have a good marriage it'll survive these muff Waters so can I take it that your earlier answer was an assumption that if a wife knew or
00:14:04 assumption that if a wife knew or suspected she would wear it for the job I think mostly they they did I don't think most of them were aware their husbands
00:14:10 husbands were having Affairs if they were lots lots of them
00:14:22 weren't uh there were dinner dancers and Christmas parties for the SDS personnel and their Partners weren't there yes and did Mrs Lambert attend those
00:14:37 yes and so you were in the position after Bob Lambert had told you that he might have fathered a child of attending those socials with Mrs Lambert knowing her husband had been having sex with an
00:14:57 husband had been having sex with an activist I can't remember the time scale now it's when I saw Bob Lamb's wife after we knew that he had an affair I can't remember it was fairly early on in his
00:15:08 early on in his deployment he prob I probably met and didn't mention it no how did you feel about
00:15:16 that I thought it was one of the problems with being in in
00:15:26 SDS how could you look her in the eye I'm a policeman
00:15:34 do you still consider that Bob Lambert deserved his Commendation yes he was providing good information not withstanding sexually deceiving Four
00:15:51 withstanding sexually deceiving Four Women I wasn't aware of the Four Women I just it was just his wife We Knew by then that he would deceived my question is directed at your thinking now now do you still consider that Bob Lambert deserved his
00:16:04 deserved his Commendation yes his work was
00:16:17 good there was a I'm going to move now to uh another woman that uh Bob Lambert deceived we call her RLC if you need to consult the cipher list um you can do so thank you so much
00:16:51 yeah yes I've seen that now thank you in your witness statement you say that you have no knowledge of uh Bob Lambert's sexual activity with RLC is that still your recollection yes it is could we have now document
00:17:08 could we have now document 74888 1 up please this is going back to your first witness
00:17:23 statement page5 please
00:17:33 paragraph 413 if we could have that [Music]
00:17:46 expanded I am referred to an extract from hn1 19's inquiry witness statement in which he recounts quote in around November
00:17:47 November 1985 I was invited to give a presentation on the SDS and tradecraft generally to members of Security
00:17:58 generally to members of Security Services detective Chief Inspector waight was in attendance as a light-hearted introduction to my presentation DCI weight made a comment to the effect that one of our animal
00:18:15 to the effect that one of our animal people had been involved in a pregnancy scare but the fact of the child being mixed race rules out the officer entirely he did not name the officer I
00:18:28 entirely he did not name the officer I was rather surprised to hear this I did not know and still do not know to whom he was ref referring but given the reference to animal people I assume that he was not referring to hn
00:18:42 that he was not referring to hn 67 and that's the end of the quotation I have vague memories of such a presentation to one of the intelligence agencies I cannot remember which I cannot recall making the comment about the pregnancy scare or a mixed raised
00:18:58 the pregnancy scare or a mixed raised child so I am unable to assist further in this
00:19:00 in this regard do you dispute hn1 19's
00:19:09 recollection can't dispute it because I can't remember all the the speeches that were said or the conversations that were held I can't remember them now can I
00:19:20 held I can't remember them now can I take it from that that you might have made such a joke I've been known for making poor jokes in the past would there have been any factual basis for the racial
00:19:40 basis for the racial aspect of what I cannot remember of what hn9 remembers sorry no I can't remember this
00:19:42 this was
00:19:44 was after Jackie had fallen pregnant significantly after Jackie had fallen pregnant if you did say what hn9 recalls
00:20:03 pregnant if you did say what hn9 recalls you saying would that have been based on your knowledge of what Bob Lambert had
00:20:10 done I assume it would yes and if it were to be suggested that this evidence is a permissive attitude to sexual
00:20:23 permissive attitude to sexual relationships whilst officers were undercover would you agree I think this is just a a meeting with the SD with box
00:20:36 with the SD with box 500 and it was lighthearted as I the statement
00:20:46 statement said I think the point is if the boss of the unit is making jokes about it uh it generates an atmosphere in which the issue would not be taken very seriously would you agree I can't remember what I said now assuming it was said would you
00:21:00 said now assuming it was said would you agree with that proposition position yes I think I
00:21:06 would you we can take that document down now thank you you said in evidence yesterday when I was asking you some questions about the woman that we called Lizzy uh the woman who was deceived by
00:21:21 Lizzy uh the woman who was deceived by Mike chitty you said that you were told very very rarely about sexual activity between undercover police officers and members of the
00:21:36 members of the public can I just be clear were there any other instances other than Bob Lambert's approach to you about sexual activity between undercover police officers and members
00:21:50 undercover police officers and members of the public I can't recall any other person coming to me and telling me they've been having sexual
00:22:02 they've been having sexual relationships were any sexual advancers or other sexual issues brought to your attention no no I don't believe they
00:22:13 were when you were meeting with your undercover police officers in the safe house at the by weekly meetings was there any discussion of sexual
00:22:22 of sexual matters I don't remember any such conversation was anything said about the relative merits in terms of attractiveness of female
00:22:38 attractiveness of female activists I don't remember that either might that have happened it's possible were any written records made
00:22:49 possible were any written records made of uh your discussions with undercover police
00:23:01 officers you know I can't remember now was a written record normally made of the bi-weekly meetings
00:23:12 no in your witness statement you tell us that no discreditable conduct occurred when you were an SDS
00:23:23 manager yeah that goes too far doesn't it the reality was there was discreditable conduct there may be a question about how much you knew about
00:23:34 question about how much you knew about it at the time but would you agree that you now know that there was a significant amount of discreditable conduct whilst you were the DCI of the
00:23:47 conduct whilst you were the DCI of the SDS I now know but I did not know at the time but you did know about Bob Lambert didn't you I did know about Bob Lambert yes he was the solitary
00:24:00 case do you remain of the view that that was not
00:24:14 discreditable i' had never given it thought before but uh I don't think it was if if it was consensual and done outside the jobs working
00:24:26 hours we do know uh that a lot of Bob Lambert's interactions with Jackie were in working hours and paid for by the taxpayer does that change your VI I beg your pardon wasn't aware of that I'm sorry does that change your
00:24:39 sorry does that change your view I think it does slightly yes when you say slightly from dis from to
00:24:50 to discreditable I don't think it really was they were doing a job and they did what they thought was necessary I'm going to put um two more
00:25:08 necessary I'm going to put um two more passages from the commissioner's opening statement for this part of the inquiry to you in each case I'm going to stop and then ask you whether you align yourself with the apology now first at least nine undercover officers in TR 2 engaged in deceitful
00:25:21 officers in TR 2 engaged in deceitful sexual relationships whilst they were deployed this was completely unacceptable so too was the failure of their managers to identif ify and prevent those relationships from
00:25:32 prevent those relationships from happening the MPS apologizes to the women affected and to the public for these failings and for the wider culture of sexism and misogyny which allowed
00:25:45 of sexism and misogyny which allowed them to happen as set out below it is committed to eradicating all forms of discrimination and to ensuring that undercover policing like all other
00:25:59 undercover policing like all other policing is conducted and held to the highest Professional Standards to what extent do you agree with
00:26:08 with that I think I agree with it wholeheartedly
00:26:19 now the MPS accepts that these sexual relationships occurred and that further relationships will be examined during the inquiries later investigations of T2 T3 and T4 such conduct was a gross violation of the women's privacy and
00:26:34 violation of the women's privacy and human rights it was abusive deceitful manipulative and wrong the MPS apologizes again unreservedly to the women whose lives have been and continueed to be affected the MPS also apologizes to the wives partners and
00:26:50 apologizes to the wives partners and families who have also been harmed by the misconduct of the uos and the failure by the SDS as managers and Senior mpsb Management to prevent that
00:27:04 that misconduct to what extent do you align yourself with that I think I'd go along with what he said what the commissioner says yes going to move now to a completely different topic and that is the
00:27:22 different topic and that is the instances in which uos under your command became involved with the criminal justice system first of all can I start with an incident in which hn9 was arrested and cautioned do you
00:27:36 hn9 was arrested and cautioned do you need to remind yourself as to who hn9 was yes I do thank
00:27:52 you yes yeah could we have up please 526 786 tab B20 sir
00:28:06 if we we see if we expand that it's a a minute
00:28:07 minute sheet um and you sign minute two which
00:28:20 sheet um and you sign minute two which is from you to the DCS of s Squad as you are aware Steven sheering is the Alias of dsh
00:28:24 of dsh hn9 the circumstances of his arrest were that on the 11th of September he was directed with two two women members of his group to post bills in the vicinity of the elephant and Castle they were
00:28:39 of the elephant and Castle they were doing this when they were arrested later they were taken to souk police station where they were released after being cautioned the arrest was not in has not embarrassed
00:28:55 embarrassed dn19 and in fact it seems likely that it will if anything enhance his standing within his group he is as you know a very experienced and professional officer and there is clearly no need for him to receive words of advice as to the requirement for him to be cautious in the future his true identity was not
00:29:15 the future his true identity was not revealed to the police at suuk and there is no question of any further action on their part this was a trivial incident and no action would seem to be necessary on our
00:29:28 on our part is it likely uh that the This Record is factually accurate I would imagine so and so we can take it that hn9 was arrested and cautioned with
00:29:44 arrested and cautioned with others with these two other women yes that
00:29:45 that sounds was any consideration given to a UCO receiving a caution in a cover
00:30:02 cover name we had con considered it yes and what was what was your thinking I'm not sure now would the word use of the word trivial um have come into play did you regard it as trivial it was only poster po
00:30:25 trivial it was only poster po posting did you know about the fact that hn9 was going to um go Bill posting beforehand or not I don't believe I did know and was that a matter of concern to you or was that within the Ambit of what the officers were
00:30:38 Ambit of what the officers were permitted to do what what the officer were permitted to do we can see from this minute that you were reporting it up the chain of
00:30:50 up the chain of command are you able to help us with how far up the chain of command issues like this would normally go I should imagine the commander but I don't know on this occasion was any consideration given to
00:31:01 was any consideration given to permitting fellow suspects to consent to being cautioned in ignorance of the fact that the man that they had been
00:31:12 that the man that they had been committing the crime with was in fact a police
00:31:14 police officer I don't think I can answer
00:31:28 officer I don't think I can answer that well was any consideration given to getting in touch with the local police um and persuading them uh to drop the matter
00:31:35 entirely we did do inform a court on one occasion I can
00:31:40 remember and it's possible we were told that the police and the local police that we knew the
00:31:51 and the local police that we knew the man and he was one of ours well the this particular minute in relation to this particular instance says it's the penultimate paragraph his true identity was not revealed to the police at suuk
00:32:06 was not revealed to the police at suuk and there is no question of any further action on their part it was C decision at the
00:32:10 at the time on this individual case each case would be looked at
00:32:18 individually was this were these cautions allowed to happen in order to maintain the operational security of the SDS yes I believe it was
00:32:35 going to could we take that down now going to move to the arrest of Mike chitty in
00:32:38 chitty in 1985 at a British Union against Viv section demonstration could we have up 526
00:32:58 787 could we go um it's tab b29 answer could we go to page six first of
00:33:09 all this is a report about the arrest of jitty and if we look at paragraph one we will see a factual
00:33:26 summary on the 4th of November 1984 a demonstration organized by the British Union for the abolition of VI section took place in leaden Street East 1 which resulted in the arrest of 18 animal activists their protest is directed
00:33:38 activists their protest is directed against the owners of a building at 10B Laden Street East 1 in which live chickens are killed at customers request allegedly in an inhumane manner among
00:33:50 allegedly in an inhumane manner among those arrested was detective Sergeant Michael chitty of the special demonstration Squad under his cover name Michael Blake all prisoners were taken to Arbor squ police station at about 10:45 hours and all were charged with
00:34:03 10:45 hours and all were charged with obstructing Chief superintendent lintot in the execution of his duty contrary to section 51 subsection 3 of the police act
00:34:12 act 1964 DS chitty was bailed to appear at T's magistrates court at 10:00 a.m. on
00:34:24 T's magistrates court at 10:00 a.m. on Monday the 5th of November 1984 the 18 defendants all answered to their bail and pleaded not guilty to the charge they were further remanded Ed on bail until the 5th of December 1984 on condition that they do not frequent leaden Street Bell Lane and middle SEC
00:34:35 leaden Street Bell Lane and middle SEC Street East 1 between the hours of 8:00 a.m. and 300 p.m. on Sundays until they next appear at T's Court could we go to the next
00:34:58 paragraph I attended Arbor Square police station at 11:00 a.m. to Lia with Chief superintendent lintot during detective Sergeant chit's detention I informed Mr linot that Blake was in fact a special Branch officer working undercover and I
00:35:11 Branch officer working undercover and I spoke to him with a view to avoiding the risk of Blake being compromised all defendants refused to allow fingerprints to be taken and no subsequent court order was requested so this is an
00:35:32 order was requested so this is an example of something being said by the s d s to the arresting officer isn't it yes it does
00:35:41 yes and it appears that this is signed by your detective inspector at the time can you recall anything uh that would help us shed further light on what was said to the police at the time no I'm afraid I
00:35:58 afraid I can't and if we um go now to uh page four
00:36:09 please and if we could look further up the
00:36:25 page thank you uh this is a report uh 4th of January 1985 uh you will see uh that paragraph one summarizes the facts and then paragraph two records detective Sergeant chitty
00:36:37 two records detective Sergeant chitty pleaded guilty to the charges against him and agreed to be bound over in the sum of
00:36:45 sum of £150 to be of good behavior for 12 months and that's signed by
00:37:01 months and that's signed by you um there is nothing in the paperwork uh to suggest that the prosecution or the court was told anything about uh Mike chitty's real identity are you able to help us now as to whether or not the prosecution was told
00:37:11 told anything no I'm not able to do that the
00:37:22 court I'm not sure I I don't know I can't remember this case that intimately and so it would appear on the face of the papers that people were convicted without knowing that
00:37:33 were convicted without knowing that there was a police officer in their midst that would be true was any thought given to
00:37:44 given to that I don't believe it
00:37:53 was was any thought given to the creation of a criminal record in the name cover name of the
00:38:02 officer I really can't remember now at this
00:38:04 this time a name that was derived from that of a deceased child did that ever factor in the
00:38:13 in the thinking not that I can remember
00:38:23 no shouldn't the court have been told what was going on in retrospect I think we could have we could have done
00:38:34 we could have done yes when you say in retrospect if you had addressed your mind to the issue at the time wasn't that the correct thing to have
00:38:53 done we did do that subsequently in another case we told the court I can't remember the details of this this one might J's
00:38:59 conviction we're aware of a case when a an officer was convicted for drink driving and the court was told but that's not a case that involved activists the distinction here is it's a
00:39:13 activists the distinction here is it's a case where he's appearing as one of very many
00:39:18 many codefendants might that have explained the
00:39:20 the difference it could have done could we take this uh down now please I want to move move now to uh the question of Chris Bailey's arrest at
00:39:40 question of Chris Bailey's arrest at rampton uh following an attack on St Marcus's butchers on the 26th of September
00:39:45 1985 uh I'm going to call up first of all
00:39:52 28452 tab B65 sir [Music]
00:40:07 this is a uh report dated the 1st of October
00:40:18 October 1985 it's one of Bob Lambert's reports we see from his nominal at the bottom right of the page could we look at paragraph two
00:40:24 please it reads at about 1:00 a.m. on Thursday the 26th of September 19 1985 members of anarchist for Animals
00:40:35 1985 members of anarchist for Animals AFA carried out a second attack on St Marcus not St monton as previously
00:40:48 Marcus not St monton as previously reported butcher shop in rampton on this occasion a slab of concrete was thrown through the shop window and RCM and I can tell you now that RCM is the activist Chris Bailey was arrested at the scene for his part in the
00:41:05 crime we've had oral evidence from Bob Lambert about this incident and his evidence was to the effect that he was the
00:41:22 effect that he was the driver effectively the getaway driver on this occasion can you help us with why Mr Lambert's involvement even in his cover identity is not recorded in this report no I can't account for
00:41:37 report no I can't account for that might it have been for operational security
00:41:43 security reasons it sounds the most likely reason yes did you know that Bob Lambert was involved in this
00:41:51 incident I can't recall it
00:41:58 now can you recall whether you were told about it
00:42:03 about it afterwards I would assume I was but I can't remember that either now are you able to assist us with
00:42:14 now are you able to assist us with whether any other manager was made aware of Bob Lambert's involvement in this incident no I can't we now know that um Mr Bailey went on to be
00:42:22 on to be convicted um as a result of this
00:42:35 convicted um as a result of this attack are you able to help us with whether any thought was given to informing the court uh that Mr Lambert an undercover police officer was involved uh in events I'm afraid I can't recall any of
00:42:58 this is it likely given the overarching importance of operational security that the court was not
00:43:00 was not told I don't
00:43:08 know well if the court had been told presumably there would have been a written
00:43:12 written record I would have thought that would have been normal practice yes but I can't remember the in this particular incident at all and there would have been a a debate no doubt uh about the
00:43:27 been a a debate no doubt uh about the consequences of disclosing the existence of an undercover officer mid deployment probably yes that's something that you so significant that you might well remember it
00:43:37 it today I don't remember
00:43:42 it if we assume that the court was not
00:43:56 told does it concern you that a man was convicted at a trial um which did not uh in which the was ignorant of the fact an undercover police officer was the getaway driver
00:44:06 yes shouldn't the court have been
00:44:16 told I find it's very difficult after this big lapse of years to remember what what was discussed at the
00:44:26 time doesn't this case highlight the Dilemma that we discussed yesterday if you have a long-term
00:44:39 yesterday if you have a long-term intelligence gathering officer in an animal rights movement who becomes involved in criminal
00:44:46 activity there's a problem you either have to disclose the officer's Identity or you risk a miscarriage of Justice we're always very insistent on men not getting involved in criminal
00:45:05 activity but it appears imagine that was said at the time but I can't remember it's too long
00:45:23 ago can we take that down now and move to Bob Lambert's arrest and prosecution at Murray's Meat Market on the 7th of December
00:45:29 December 1985 can we start with 526 788 please tab b99
00:45:47 sir and can we go first of all uh to uh page
00:45:54 nine this is a report dated the 10th of December 1985 with the title arrest of
00:46:09 December 1985 with the title arrest of detective Sergeant B Lambert if we look um at paragraph 1 and two first of all please whilst taking part in a demonstration outside brickton meat market Atlantic Road Southwest 9 on Saturday the 7th of December 1985 at
00:46:24 Saturday the 7th of December 1985 at 11:45 a.m. detective Sergeant Lambert in his role as a member of anarchist for animals was arrested for obstructing the highway contrary to section 137 highways act
00:46:33 act 1980 the demonstration in which he had been taking part had been designed as a protest against the sale of meat not unnaturally The Butchers against whom this protest was aimed objected and
00:46:46 this protest was aimed objected and assaulted some of the animal activists the arrival of police undoubtedly saved more of them being attacked however the police took the view that the Dem
00:46:59 police took the view that the Dem demonstrators had caused the disturbance and arrested five of them three for obstructing police one for using abusive
00:47:13 obstructing police one for using abusive words and detective Sergeant Lambert for obstructing the highway they were taken to Brixton police station where in addition to the charges already mentioned they were further charged with delivering insulting leaflets contrary to section five of the public order Act of 1936
00:47:29 if I just pause there do you have any recollection of this incident
00:47:37 now really know what happened could we excuse me take a moment yeah thank you I have now yeah could we go down to paragraphs five and six
00:47:56 [Music] please at 9:30 a.m. on Sunday the 8th of December I saw inspector TN 43 the officer who had been responsible for charging detective Sergeant Lambert I
00:48:07 charging detective Sergeant Lambert I told him of our interest in the matter but did not inform him of detective Sergeant Lambert's true identity he having been charged in his false name of Mark Robert Charles Robinson inspector
00:48:21 Mark Robert Charles Robinson inspector TN 43 believes that Robinson is a very good informant who we are anxious to protect he assured me that no further charges were intended and promised his full cooperation so another case in
00:48:33 full cooperation so another case in which uh the police were told at least
00:48:50 something do you do you accept that I accept that yes orbe it not the whole truth I really can't remember these individual cases so many years ago okay well we'll we'll continue refreshing
00:49:02 well we'll we'll continue refreshing your memory if we can from the document paragraph six at campwell Green magistrates court on Monday the 9th of
00:49:13 magistrates court on Monday the 9th of December detective Sergeant Lambert with three other defendants a further one is due to appear on Wednesday the 12th of December pleaded not guilty to the charges against them they were released on bail with the only condition of which was that none of them should go within
00:49:24 was that none of them should go within 50 yards of the junction of Brixton Road and Electric Avenue they are to appear
00:49:36 and Electric Avenue they are to appear again at camberwell magistrates court at 10:00 a.m. on Monday the 6th of January 1985 and if we can go over the page to paragraph eight
00:49:45 please on Monday the 9th of December Chief superintendent Weber was seen at Brixton police station and informed of Mark Robert Charles Robinson's true identity he understood Our concern and agreed to give any help could he
00:49:57 agreed to give any help could he promised to keep the identity and our involvement to himself this report is signed by you can you help us as to
00:50:09 signed by you can you help us as to whether it was you who spoke to Chief superintendent Weber no I can't do
00:50:20 that and can we take it that if there was a pro he'd promised to keep the identity and the SS's involvement to himself
00:50:29 himself uh that the information would have not got to the
00:50:39 court I don't know I can't I say I can't remember this case that intimately and I can't remember the argument could we go now in the file to page three
00:50:57 please this is a minute by Chief superintendent David Golding dated the 10th of December and if we look at the last two paragraphs of the
00:51:11 last two paragraphs of the text this arrest though unfortunate will probably enhance detective Sergeant Lambert's standing within the animal movement and in the long term it should prove to be
00:51:25 prove to be useful was it generally the sentiment uh that if an undercover officer was arrested
00:51:26 arrested in the company of activists and had a brush with the criminal justice system it had some beneficial effect to the deployment I always imagine so
00:51:44 deployment I always imagine so yes the minute goes on to read I have directed DCI waight to continue to monitor this case personally I understand the difficulties you're having with your memory uh but would it be fair to assume that if the chief
00:51:57 be fair to assume that if the chief superintendent had asked you to monitor the case personally it is likely that you went on to do so yes could we go to page seven
00:52:20 please this is a report 14th of January 1986 signed by your Di and it's about DS Lambert court appearance on Saturday the 7th of December 1985 5 detective Sergeant
00:52:31 December 1985 5 detective Sergeant Robert Lambert in his cover identity of Mark Robert Charles Robinson was arrested with four other animal activists whilst taking part in a demonstration outside Mar's meet Market
00:52:43 demonstration outside Mar's meet Market Brixton and then it gives a reference to the earlier report following his remand at camberwell magistrates court on the 9th of December this case was adjourned until the 6th of January 1986 on that date DS Lambert appeared with the following four co- defend
00:52:57 following four co- defend who are then listed and if we could go
00:53:15 down sets out in paragraph two the charges and the pleas and paragraph three which I'm more interested for these purposes all defendants are being legally represented by privacy privacy a barrister who has been instructed by privacy of M says
00:53:26 been instructed by privacy of M says mild and Bowmont 299b Lavender Hill S sw11 can you recall was that firm one of
00:53:38 sw11 can you recall was that firm one of the firms that did a lot of uh defendant work for
00:53:40 work for activists I can't confirm or deny that at this stage it's too long ago I can't
00:54:00 at this stage it's too long ago I can't remember was any consideration given to the propriety of an undercover police officer being represented in court jointly with members of the public I can't can't remember that that any such discussion took
00:54:14 place is it likely that that's something you gave your attention to or not I imagine I would have done at the time yes isn't there a problem with having an undercover police officer
00:54:28 having an undercover police officer listen listening in and receiving legal advice with codefendants I can see that now yes did it did that problem occur to you at the
00:54:39 it did that problem occur to you at the time I don't believe it did but I can't remember the the details of this
00:54:50 case would you accept that that involves a breach of Legal Professional privilege I would accept that yes could we take this document down now please and have 74718 up
00:55:09 please there's a little bit of detail involved in in the next two documents we're looking uh at uh this is a report about events at the trial could we go
00:55:24 about events at the trial could we go first of all to the end of the document to see who whose report it is is it's signed by detective Constable
00:55:36 is it's signed by detective Constable hn4 if you need to refresh your memory as to who hn4 is please
00:55:56 come yeah yeah although
00:55:58 although hn4 did serve in the SDS our present understanding is that at the time this report was made he was not serving in the
00:56:12 the SDS uh if we could look first of all paragraph
00:56:21 1 on Monday the 24th of February 1986 at campwell Green magistrates Court five members of anarchist for Animals Steven Curtis priv y Mark Robinson Jeffrey Shepard and George appear to answer various charges arising from a
00:56:34 various charges arising from a demonstration outside Murray's meet Market on Saturday the 7th of December um if we go now to paragraph
00:56:48 three after a lengthy submission from the defense the magistrate Brian Roberts grudgingly consented to have each of the defendants try separately before different justices the case of privacy
00:57:05 different justices the case of privacy was to go ahead on this occasion if we could go now to paragraph four at the end of the prosecution case against privacy the defense asked the magistrate to consider whether the
00:57:17 magistrate to consider whether the leaflets distributed outside Murray's meat market and the subject of a charge under Section 5B public order act 1936 were in fact insulting privacy rulle
00:57:32 were in fact insulting privacy rulle that although the drawing of a butcher's dissecting a human baby was insulting the leaflet had to be taken as a whole and that the text qualified the diagram and rendered it no more than
00:57:46 and rendered it no more than distasteful he therefore dismissed the charge in relation to this article in in privacy's defense to the second charge of using Abus words both Robinson and shepher gave
00:58:02 words both Robinson and shepher gave evidence and RM who I can tell you is Chris Bailey a well-known animal rights supporter was also to have been called but the lunch break
00:58:14 but the lunch break interceded after this interval both Council entered the court discussing bind overs this was put to each of the five defendants who all agreed to be
00:58:27 five defendants who all agreed to be bound over to keep keep the piece for 12 months in the sum
00:58:43 of50 we can see from that report that uh Mr Robinson detective Sergeant Robinson as he then was gave evidence as a defense witness didn't he yeah I can see that from the report
00:58:53 yes is that something you would have known at the time I assume I would have done at the
00:59:04 time and it's something you would have known about because you'd seen this report or because Bob Lambert would have told you or possibly both probably
00:59:22 both can we take that document down now and have up the document 526 788 uh again that's tab b99
00:59:48 sir could we this time go to page
00:59:58 five uh this is is a report by you dated the 28th of February 1986 uh could we look at paragraphs 1 and two
01:00:13 and two please this report is about the court proceedings on Monday the 24th of February 1986 DS Lambert charged as Bob Robinson appeared at campwell Green magistrates Court charged with
01:00:24 magistrates Court charged with obstructing the highway and distributing an offensive Le George privacy Steve Curtis and Jeff Shephard were codefendants sharing the second charge but facing various Chargers under the Metropolitan Police
01:00:39 Chargers under the Metropolitan Police act all five were represented by privacy a barrister instructed by privacy privacy's case was the first to be heard and Shepherd gave evidence on his behalf at lunch time the magistrate decided
01:00:52 at lunch time the magistrate decided that there was no case uh to answer in respect of the offensive leaflet charge and therefore the same decision was
01:01:05 and therefore the same decision was recorded in respect of the four other defendants police then offered no evidence on the other charges and all
01:01:17 evidence on the other charges and all five defendants were bound over in the sum of50 to keep the piece for 12 months
01:01:23 months now it's evident isn't it comparing your summary here of the fact s with the report that we've just looked at that there is both a minor and a major
01:01:40 there is both a minor and a major discrepancy the minor discrepancy is as to the
01:01:42 to the chronology in that the submission of no
01:01:56 chronology in that the submission of no case to answer was made before lunch and it was the bind over that happened immediately after lunch do you
01:02:03 do you agree it would appear so from the document you shown me the more significant um discrepancy uh for our purposes is this account omits the fact that Bob Robinson
01:02:20 account omits the fact that Bob Robinson gave evidence on behalf of the defendant doesn't it
01:02:30 yes you were monitoring this case personally not least because you'd been asked to do
01:02:42 so why did you omit from this report the fact that Lambert gave evidence in his undercover identity I don't know now I cannot
01:02:52 remember is it something that you wish to conceal from your superiors I don't know I don't think so is it something that you did not want to commit to a written
01:03:07 commit to a written record I don't know what my motives were at the
01:03:07 at the time could we go to page four
01:03:20 please uh this is uh the minute from Chief
01:03:25 Chief superintendent Parker dated the 28th of February
01:03:26 February 1986 um about the court proceedings the case against detective Sergeant Lambert was heard at camberwell Green
01:03:39 was heard at camberwell Green magistrates court on Monday the 24th of February he was bound over to keep the peace for 12 months this was a good result as it will have enhanced his standing amongst the anarchists with whom he Associated whilst at the same time allowing him not to take part in
01:03:58 time allowing him not to take part in those actions at which there is a chance of arrests should he so wish detective Sergeant Lambert has behaved very sensibly throughout this difficult time and he is to be commended for his professional
01:04:11 professional attitude were you aware that your senior managers were pleased with the
01:04:19 outcome I think that must have been I again I can't [Music]
01:04:29 remember what had happened though was that the court had been misled as to the true identity of a witness who had given evidence to them hadn't
01:04:42 evidence to them hadn't it it would appear so in that respect and so was the
01:04:48 defendant
01:04:52 yes so this wasn't a good result was it
01:05:04 it wasn't the terms of the Parker relates I beg you pardon was a good result it did enhance Bob B Binson's position a good result for the operational security of the SDS and its continuing
01:05:21 security of the SDS and its continuing operation a bad result for the operation of
01:05:22 of Justice uh probably yes
01:05:31 did you I I appreciate you're struggling with your recollection so if You' rather me ask would you take the question as would you have um you
01:05:47 the question as would you have um you can make that clear but did you or would you have addressed your mind to that problem I don't believe I would
01:06:06 know could we take that document down now please and I want to move to another uh incident a request that Bob Lambert give evidence for Steve Curtis in the spring of
01:06:11 spring of 1986 could we start with 28389
01:06:30 please this is tab b84 sir this is a report dated the 23rd of May 1986 it's entitled at the side Bob Robinson court appearance uh you have signed uh the report can we look first of all at uh paragraph
01:06:50 one it has been learned from a secret and reliable source that on Saturday the 19th of April 1986 the manarchist members of London Greenpeace took part in a campaign for nuclear disarmament CND demonstration against the American
01:07:05 CND demonstration against the American air strike in Libya in grova square at approximately 2:45 p.m. there was disorder on the south side of the square when some demonstrators sought to remove crowd control barriers Steve Curtis a member of London
01:07:19 barriers Steve Curtis a member of London Greenpeace and a regular Troublemaker at po public order event was amongst this number he was arrested by uniform police at the scene and subsequently charged with threatening behavior could we move now to paragraph
01:07:41 two he is due to appear at boow Street magistrates court at 2 p.m on Tuesday the 1st of July 1986 and intends to plead not guilty Bob Robinson also of London Greenpeace is one of three comrades who have been asked to appear
01:07:52 comrades who have been asked to appear as defense Witnesses Curtis is usually represent entered in court by privacy of Mildred and Bowmont or a barrister instructed by her and it is understood that this will again be the case his
01:08:04 that this will again be the case his defense will be that he was a peaceful protester wrongly identified by police as an agitator defense witnesses will give evidence confirming his sober behavior during the
01:08:18 behavior during the protest uh we can see immediately there a distinction between this case and the last one we were looking at because um the fact that Bob Robinson might be
01:08:33 um the fact that Bob Robinson might be involved as a defense witness is clearly included in the report are you able to help us at all as to why it was included
01:08:49 help us at all as to why it was included in this report and not the report in the last case no I'm afraid I can't help on this I can't remember that intimately could we take this document down now please and have up 73108
01:08:55 tab b83
01:09:02 sir this is a short memorandum dated the 23rd of May 1986 signed by you could we look at paragraph two please it's about the same
01:09:11 the same incident it would seem to be necessary for detective Sergeant Lambert to comply with this request from his comrade Steve Curtis to fail to do so would be
01:09:25 Curtis to fail to do so would be damaging to his credibility within his group It is believed that such an appearance at court would not pose any special problems can we take it from
01:09:40 special problems can we take it from those words that you were not thinking in terms of the impact on the administration of justice that's quite right yes and if we could take that down and go to 731 079 that's tab b85 sir
01:10:04 uh this is a minute sheet can we start with minute one
01:10:10 please sorry not paragraph one the whole of the first minute it's from CH sorry the starting from Commander operations down to our park a chief superintendent
01:10:26 please thank you this is a minute from Chief superintendent Parker dated the 4th of June 86 to Commander operations while there would appear to be no precedent for an SDS officer to appear as a
01:10:38 for an SDS officer to appear as a defense witness I see no overriding problem for such a course of action in a minor case like this indeed as DCI
01:10:52 minor case like this indeed as DCI weight points out not to do so would undoubtedly damage his credibility within his group subject to your agreement then therefore I will direct DS Lambert to appear at BO Street
01:11:04 DS Lambert to appear at BO Street magistrates court on the 1st of July and will brief him beforeand to be suitably non-controversial in what he has to say two points I want to ask you about
01:11:17 say two points I want to ask you about from that document the first of all it seems to Sor it's quite all right it seems to confirm doesn't it uh that Chief superintendent Parker was indeed ignorant of the fact that Bob Lambert
01:11:33 ignorant of the fact that Bob Lambert had earlier given evidence to a court in the case that we just looked at yes and
01:11:39 yes and secondly are you able to help us as to whether or not we can take uh this document at face value by which I mean it appears that Chief superintendent
01:11:51 it appears that Chief superintendent Parker was not addressing his mind to the impact on the administration of justice either I think that must be right
01:12:01 right yes uh if we could go now please to minute two further down the
01:12:12 page this goes over the page and I can tell you it's from Commander felen I feel you have not explored all
01:12:23 felen I feel you have not explored all the possible consequences in making your recommendations at minute one general order section six paragraph 109a subsections 3 and five would apply to DS Lambert if he were to give evidence and strictly interpreted should apply now
01:12:38 strictly interpreted should apply now that an approach to him has been made clearly to inform all concern as set out in the general order is
01:12:44 is unacceptable you might argue that the provisions of the general order would not apply to Bob Robinson but there then would be dangers if his true identity were then to be discovered later
01:13:00 were then to be discovered later consider also what might happen if he were to be recognized by a police officer in court unlikely but possible
01:13:11 officer in court unlikely but possible it is also possible that his demeanor in court would reveal something of his police training and give rise to suspicion so it's clear isn't it that Commander felen has some operational
01:13:23 Commander felen has some operational security reservations doesn't he yes he did and and some reservations about compliance with general orders yes goes on to say the report at 1B shows that
01:13:35 on to say the report at 1B shows that Steve Curtis is a regular troublemaker and implies in paragraph one that his arrest was justified in paragraph two it is indicated that his defense will be that he was wrongly identified as an
01:13:46 that he was wrongly identified as an agitator and that witnesses will testify to his sober Behavior this suggests that
01:14:01 to his sober Behavior this suggests that DS Lambert Bob Robinson will be required to commit perjury if he gives evidence and if we go over the page now please in
01:14:06 please in paragraph two of minute one you say you will brief DS Lambert to be suitably non-controversial in my view if he does not come up to Curtis's expectations as a witness he could lose as much
01:14:19 a witness he could lose as much credibility as he would by not appearing in view of the foregoing therefore DS Lambert must not give evidence for the
01:14:30 Lambert must not give evidence for the defense but should conduct concoct some plausible and then if we can have the rest thank you excuse we can discuss
01:14:44 rest thank you excuse we can discuss this aspect further if you wish so there is definitely a further operational security concern about the risk of losing credibility isn't there yes there appears to be a concern about his officer being required to purger
01:15:00 purger himself yes so a mix of operational and criminal justice considerations yes are you able to help us as to whether or
01:15:13 whether or not Bob Lambert actually did give evidence on behalf of Steve Curtis I can't remember that
01:15:33 now you have explained in your witness statement that having seen these minutes you were embarrassed except that you were in error was your error the result of excessive focus on operational security at the expense of the administration of justice I think that would be correct
01:15:55 yes moving now to the consequences of Commander felin's advice and we can take this document down now the consequence of Commander felin's advice was that Curtis was convicted and that conviction was upheld
01:16:15 convicted and that conviction was upheld on appeal we know without knowing that a man that he wanted to act as a witness was in fact an undercover police officer the lack of disclosure to the court of that fact was itself problematic wasn't
01:16:34 it I don't know it may have been at the time I can't remember I'm asking you it at a level of abstraction assuming the court was not told withholding the fact that Mr
01:16:54 told withholding the fact that Mr Lambert was really an undercover police officer means that Justice can't be properly done doesn't it I think that probably correct yes could we have up please
01:17:17 72714 uh this is a home office circular about informants who take part in crime dated the 12th of May 1969 could we go to page two please
01:17:31 and paragraph subparagraph C that's the top of the page the police must never commit themselves to a course which whether to protect an informant or otherwise will
01:17:49 protect an informant or otherwise will constrain them to mislead a court in any subsequent proceedings this must always be regarded as a prime con consideration when deciding whether and in what Manner an informant may be used and how far if
01:18:06 an informant may be used and how far if at all he is to be allowed to take part in an
01:18:07 in an offense if his use in the way envisaged will or is likely to result in its being impossible to protect him without
01:18:18 impossible to protect him without subsequently misleading the court that must be regarded as a decisive reason for is not being so used or not being protected were you aware of this home office
01:18:41 office circular I I don't think I was were you aware of the the general premise that the police must never mislead a court yes I yes I think I
01:18:53 was it would have appear on the face of the minutes we went through that you and two of your super superiors all failed to score full marks so far as criminal justice uh was concerned is that fair that's a fair
01:19:14 concerned is that fair that's a fair comment could we take that document uh down now please want to move to um a completely different topic uh of a completely different nature could we have up please 29267 tab b82 sir
01:19:39 this is a security service note for file it's on the SDS liaison file dated the 18th of April 1986 if we could have the text expanded please DCI Tony weight called at 12:15 on the 16th of April to introduce Mike
01:19:51 on the 16th of April to introduce Mike Barber's successor detective inspector Eric Docker after lunch at which we were joined by F4 and the security service newly arrived I explained my role to
01:20:09 newly arrived I explained my role to Docker and invited him whenever the need arose to get in touch Docker whose last appointment was in the National joint
01:20:22 appointment was in the National joint unit terrorism mainly Irish struck me as being well disposed towards us but deeper and more devious than his predecessor
01:20:35 can you help us uh with whether or not you share that assessment of detective inspector docker's
01:20:42 character um I I think he was rather deeper than my father two very good men what about
01:20:55 men what about deviousness I can't comment on that did you ever find him devious in your dealings with him no are you able to help us with why the security service might have formed that
01:21:09 might have formed that view that was that was a brief meeting they didn't know could we take that uh down now
01:21:21 know could we take that uh down now please and move to another topic that of senior officers visits to the SDS could we have up 728
01:21:28 977 could we go to page N9
01:21:39 please this is a 1986 annual report for the SDS paragraph 11 on the 8th of May 1986 the field
01:21:52 11 on the 8th of May 1986 the field officers received a visit from assistant commissioner specialist operations ja Del CBE and the deputy assistant commissioner Mr Sr CAW the meeting took
01:22:07 commissioner Mr Sr CAW the meeting took place at the West London safe flat where a friendly but constructive exchange of views took place such visits by senior officers are welcomed by the field officers and serve to reduce her feeling of isolation from the main body of Branch life while at the same time
01:22:22 Branch life while at the same time reassuring them of the value of the SDS operation and the esteem in which they are held
01:22:29 are held uh you were the DCI at the time of this visit can you recall it no I can't are you able to help us in general
01:22:45 general terms with what level of interaction and communication there was between your unit and Senior officers when they visited they were given free access to all the officers and they could interview them talk to them if they
01:22:59 interview them talk to them if they wished so would it be fair to say that they had a very good idea at a level of generality as to what your unit was doing the sorts of targets it was a
01:23:12 doing the sorts of targets it was a bigger pardon so I interrupted you I'm sorry I was going to say the sort of targets that you were infiltrating and so forth yes they would have been
01:23:30 told would they have known that your officers were using deceased children's identities uh as part of their Legends I don't imagine sir uh would they have been aware of uh sexual activity between your officers
01:23:44 sexual activity between your officers and members of the public I don't ad so can you recall whether there was any ever any discussion about the risk of that
01:23:50 that occurring I don't believe so can you help help us with the level of contact that you would have had not with the people immediately above you in the chain of command but more senior
01:24:03 chain of command but more senior officers of this kind of level about the
01:24:15 SDS we used to try to arrange meetings with with any new senior officer that was in
01:24:23 was in post and were these people that you knew personally no I didn't know them personally and to what extent were to the best of your recollection to what extent would they have been seeing any written material other than the annual reports
01:24:35 material other than the annual reports and particular crises across their desk about the day-to-day running of the SDS they free to see anything they
01:24:47 they free to see anything they wished my question is more directed at in practice how frequent was that
01:25:00 where could we take that uh document down now I want to move to the topic of post uh
01:25:02 post uh deployment Counseling in your uh witness statement you
01:25:10 you recognize that your officers uh might get a uh might have
01:25:26 a uh might have difficulties uh and you say that there was a system of interview in officers after uh the end of their
01:25:37 deployments your evidence on paper is also that you never took part in one that you can remember is it still is it still your
01:25:48 remember is it still is it still your recollection or or lack of recollection you can't remember ever actually doing so my lack of Rec recation
01:26:02 I want to put to you some of the evidence from some of the officers who served whilst you were the
01:26:14 served whilst you were the DCI I'm going to put to you what it is that they have said on the issue of welfare and in particular followup going to start with uh Roger Pierce uh he if we could have up
01:26:26 if we could have up 747
01:26:38 965 page 127
01:26:48 please par
01:26:58 271 the manager the managers kept an eye on me and my wife I felt well supported in my withdrawal I took some annual leave for quite a lengthy period after my withdrawal I think the managers provided support during that time as
01:27:16 provided support during that time as well I think we went for a drink my wife to and then if we could go to page 139 paragraph 303 please
01:27:42 as far as I recall I was not offered any advice or ongoing support by the SDS and or the MPS following my withdrawal at the time I was Satisfied by that but on reflection years later I do think that
01:27:55 reflection years later I do think that there should have been a more structured after CARE program at the time however it did not really exist you went to the pub with contemporaries talked about it and then got on with
01:28:08 and then got on with life do you have any reason to doubt Roger Pier's recollection as set out in those two
01:28:17 those two paragraphs no I don't would you accept
01:28:28 paragraphs no I don't would you accept that it uh paints a picture of of good informal support but on reflection a lack of
01:28:30 lack of structured support yes I think that is a fair comment could we take that down now please and go to uh
01:28:46 7431 186 this is hn 65 have you refreshed your memory as to
01:28:57 65 have you refreshed your memory as to who hn6 is thank you very much thank you good uh could we go please to page 65 paragraph 1
01:29:08 191 I was not offered any advice or ongoing support by the SDS or MPS following the end of my deployment it helped that I had hn1 126 to speak with about my experiences it took some time
01:29:22 about my experiences it took some time to adjust to no longer being deployed I started having particular Vivid and troubling nightmares after I stopped being a UC I also found it difficult to go anywhere with my family for a little while that followed on from four years
01:29:38 while that followed on from four years of deployment where I had the same issue CND was such a large organization that Drew from such a broad cross-section of society that I felt there was a significant risk of bumping into CND
01:29:57 significant risk of bumping into CND members who might know me so again there appears to be a recollection of a lack of formal um ongoing support do you accept that I do accept that yes and would it be right to say
01:30:08 that yes and would it be right to say that there was a particular problem if an officer had infiltrated a very large organization and come across a lot of
01:30:20 organization and come across a lot of activists there was a heightened risk of being
01:30:21 being recognized yes I can could we take that down please can we have up next hn1 19's uh statement 74771
01:30:42 0 could we have page 86 paragraphs 228 and
01:30:54 229 yes if we could have 2 to8 in 229 expanded please thank you I had accumulated holiday which I took following my withdrawal from the field I was debriefed by the security service following my deployment I was separately
01:31:10 following my deployment I was separately debriefed by the SDS there was no formal program of reintegration into conventional duties when I returned to special branch in 1986 the head of C Squad was someone I'd worked with when he was a detective
01:31:22 worked with when he was a detective inspector detective chief inspector short was also later my superintendent
01:31:36 short was also later my superintendent on cquad familiarity with people helped on an informal basis I was eased back into normal duties I do recall going back into the SDS office after my withdrawal to see Tony weight this was not so much for advice or support but to be sociable I wasn't offered any advice
01:31:53 be sociable I wasn't offered any advice or ongoing support by the SDS or the MPS after my withdrawal but I didn't see this as an Omission would it be fair to characterize this as saying again there was informal support but no formal structured support that would be correct
01:32:13 structured support that would be correct yes and if we take that down and finally go to hn 33's witness statement 745
01:32:21 970 page 40 paragraph
01:32:35 158 I do not recall being offered any advice or ongoing support by the SDS or the MPS after my withdrawal but in any event I did not feel I needed any so I did not seek it so again a lack of formal structured support uh in this
01:32:46 formal structured support uh in this particular case a fmatic officer perhaps who didn't need any is that fair I think that's fair yes
01:32:58 that's fair yes could we take that down now please having taken you through those uh despite your evidence that there were interviews there was a at least an intention to hold interviews after
01:33:21 intention to hold interviews after deployments was the ground truth in fact that there wasn't much if any formal support for your offices after they withdrew there was little formal support but lot of moral support for them sorry I didn't quite catch that got of moral
01:33:34 I didn't quite catch that got of moral support Moral Moral support but not me the branch they were working in the in the
01:33:42 the branch and you see them on a regular basis but not not formal meetings not
01:33:53 basis but not not formal meetings not formal meetings no so would that be a convenient time to take the morning break certainly it would we'll um rise for 15
01:34:22 minutes
01:50:51 e e
01:51:55 yes Mr w I'd like to now ask about uh ask for some Reflections um first of all about training do you think that formal
01:52:11 training about the issue of sexual
01:52:20 relationships would have helped your officers to understand how wrong it is for a serving police
01:52:35 how wrong it is for a serving police officer under cover to have sex with a member of the public and therefore to avoid doing
01:52:42 so no I mean they were mature men who you knew the rules they were mostly married and know that they shouldn't have been doing these things you didn't need reinforcing
01:52:55 isn't the difficulty with that observation that so many of the officers under your command we now know did enter into sexual activity with members of the
01:53:11 into sexual activity with members of the public I'm most surprised to the numbers you told
01:53:14 you told me but doesn't that mean that formal training was called for to minimize the
01:53:27 to minimize the risk I don't think it would have made any difference because these are not just to be dismissed as Affairs are they they're not Affairs they're police officers
01:53:39 misbehaving I think they're
01:53:49 Affairs would you accept uh that more formal training for your officers and perhaps also for yourself and your fellow
01:54:04 managers to reinforce a message that courts must not be misled would have helped to keep you on the straight and narrow I think that would have helped
01:54:24 yes if it would have helped in relation to misleading courts why wouldn't it have helped in relation to avoiding improper sexual
01:54:33 activity it's such a natural drive if you put young men and young women together you're going to get these
01:54:44 problems is that observation a
01:54:55 observation a reason to consider very carefully indeed whether the undercover tactic should be used at
01:54:57 used at all no I don't I think it we to obtain good results and will help to the rest of the police force and for the security service we provided a good service to
01:55:15 them is the problem with that answer that it is dismissive of the impact that such deceptions
01:55:27 deceptions have such sexual deceptions have on the women
01:55:28 women involved yes I accept that
01:55:37 yes would more formal training have helped to keep a focus on what intelligence was really relevant and
01:55:53 relevant and necessary and therefore which were appropriate targets and what should have been committed to writing in reports yes I suppose that is
01:56:12 right would more guidance or refresher training following on from henden in the specific context of undercover policing have helped you
01:56:28 undercover policing have helped you uh to make lawful decisions as to the circumstances in which your officers could first of all enter private
01:56:39 property don't think we ever talk about entering private property no I'm what I'm putting to you now is wouldn't some guidance about the circumstances in
01:56:50 guidance about the circumstances in which it was lawful for an undercover off officer to enter private property have been helpful to you oh yes get more knowledge it must be of help and the
01:57:04 knowledge it must be of help and the same so same would apply so far as the taking of confidential
01:57:15 information Yes actually so yes and respecting Legal Professional privilege yes
01:57:26 can I move now to your time as detective Chief
01:57:28 Chief superintendent uh or and head of cquad we know that you held that post
01:57:40 cquad we know that you held that post between the 10th of November 1989 and April
01:57:49 1991 can I start with your role in targeting presumably as head of C Squad you were in contact more regularly with people higher up the chain of
01:58:01 people higher up the chain of command I that would be correct yes I think so to what extent did you talk to them about how SDS officers were being
01:58:15 them about how SDS officers were being targeted we would discuss these things with the weekly meeting for start and informally in the corridors of power and how far up the chain of command would those conversations
01:58:26 those conversations go DHC sometimes but usually command
01:58:42 level the did you ever get any pushback or Challenge from them about the targets that were being proposed not that I can remember did you get any orders directions suggestions or
01:58:59 any orders directions suggestions or steers as to where officers should be targeted I don't we call that
01:59:08 no were you aware of the existence of high level committees in government first of all the subversion in public life
01:59:17 life committee no I don't think I was and the subversion home committee no was there any awareness that very senior officers
01:59:30 officers were attending meetings with the home office and potentially the cabinet office about policing matters at a high
01:59:42 level I assumed it was happening but I didn't I can't remember where case is now including about subversion including sub yes did you get any feedback from such meetings
01:59:55 any feedback from such meetings oh yes if they thought we should know we we were
02:00:00 we were told can you recall whether any of that feedback ever influence targeting decisions they would have affected targeted decisions
02:00:13 targeted decisions yes can you help us with What fields
02:00:16 fields um might have been identified for pen rtion from those sources no I
02:00:27 sources no I can't to what extent were your Communications up the chain of command recorded in
02:00:40 writing if you had a formal meeting it would be recorded but the informal meetings probably not and what was a relative mix of formal to
02:00:52 informal a formal meeting with would be the ones where you you were summoned into to see the C in your officer my question is not so much distinguishing
02:01:08 question is not so much distinguishing between the two but trying to get a feel for how much business was transacted formally and how much business was transacted informally most of the business was
02:01:23 informal to move to the topic of the use of deceased children's identity is uh for cover Legends by undercover uh police officers could we have up please 731
02:01:36 061 can we have page 14
02:01:48 please this is a minute from a superintendent SBC to Chief super intendant and it's very hard to see the squad but we think it's um this is about Squad monitoring
02:02:05 it's um this is about Squad monitoring could we look at the text in the first two paragraphs please the information contained at 36a and B suggests that Jeffrey seed a producer of the channel 4 documentary
02:02:25 producer of the channel 4 documentary 2020 Vision MI5 official Secrets banned by the IBA a few years ago is studying the feasibility of producing a television program which would compare intelligence activities in the late 60s
02:02:36 intelligence activities in the late 60s early 70s with those of the present day in this context Rick Gibson the cover
02:02:49 in this context Rick Gibson the cover name used by detective inspector Richard Clark when serving as an SDS officer in the mid '70s has again been mentioned and reference made to the fact that private privacy may be able to supply seed with a photograph of Gibson and some papers on the subject privacy a
02:03:00 some papers on the subject privacy a 1976 member of big flame and the subject of RF privacy was the person who in late 1976 challenged the SDS officer about his identity and produced copies of the
02:03:19 his identity and produced copies of the birth and death certificates relating to his cover name this resulted in Clark's immediate withdrawal from the
02:03:31 immediate withdrawal from the field um if we could zoom out to see the date 26th of September is about two months before you started as head of SE squad on the 10th of November
02:03:43 of November 1989 my first question arising from this is did you know from any source that there had been an SDS officer Richard Clark
02:03:52 Clark who had been confronted with the death certificate of the child whose identity he had
02:04:00 he had used I don't remember that now my second question is can you recall whether it was drawn to your
02:04:16 recall whether it was drawn to your attention when you were head of C Squad uh that esquad uh were monitoring the
02:04:29 uh that esquad uh were monitoring the potential for their to be a Channel 4 documentary in which an SDS officer would
02:04:31 would feature in that capacity I can't remember this ever being spoken about is it likely uh that this was drawn to your
02:04:44 drawn to your attention
02:04:54 probably can we take it that you didn't take whether or not you were told you didn't take any steps to change the process during your tenure as head of C Squad no I
02:05:08 Squad no I didn't can you recall whether or not you had any
02:05:11 had any cause to
02:05:13 cause to consider changing the
02:05:21 process I knew there was agitation for us that change but I can't remember being officially coming to me as an
02:05:31 inquiry did you consider taking any action proactively yourself
02:05:44 no if we could take that down now please could we have up 745 856
02:05:51 please this is the witness statement of the off officer we know as hn
02:05:59 56 I'm just looking up the name you tell me when you've got it
02:06:09 y in the meantime could we go to page five
02:06:10 five please yeah yes I've seen that now thank you thank you could we have um paragraph 26 please
02:06:33 thank you undercover identity my cover name was Alan Charles Nicholson though I went by Nick this was not the name of a deceased child most uos immediately prior to me created their cover identity based on a deceased child's details as
02:06:45 based on a deceased child's details as far as I know I did not do so because hn 109 one of my managers was changing procedures because of issues affecting the unit these are discussed below I
02:07:00 the unit these are discussed below I created my cover Name by hn 56 describes how he created his cover name were you
02:07:13 how he created his cover name were you aware at the time first of all that hn 56 did not use the name of a deceased child
02:07:22 no were you aware that h n 109 had
02:07:28 109 had concerns such as to cause him to give the
02:07:29 the advice to hn 56 I'm not sure when I became aware of this
02:07:43 no without going into details can you tell us whether or not the SDS changed its approach whilst you were head of C Squad not to my way to my knowledge
02:08:05 no can we take that down now please uh I'd like to ask you about your working uh relationship with hn 109 could we have up first of all
02:08:15 30684 File 2 tab B101 sir
02:08:31 this is a security service note for file um it says that on Friday the 10th of November I accompanied the then F4 to mpsb New Scotland Yard to be introduced to the new head of C Squad detective
02:08:42 to the new head of C Squad detective Chief superintendent Tony waight he had replaced Dave Smith who had retired with effect about 7th of November could we go to page two paragraph 5
02:09:03 please in relation to Stefan Scott it says wait wait then commented on the case of hn 95 an SDS agent withdrawn under a
02:09:11 under a cloud he expressed forcefully and vigorously his view that Scott would never have spoken out of turn about his work he knew him well and profoundly
02:09:30 work he knew him well and profoundly disagreed with the Judgment expressed by others within cquad at the time nor did he believe that Scott fabricated his reports could we go below that to the comment
02:09:45 paragraph privately the then F4 commented to me that it had been dihn 109 current death Deputy head of SDS who had been the main instigator of this
02:09:59 had been the main instigator of this judgment of Scott hence it put Scott hm 109 and sorry in a very difficult position Vis A his new head of SE Squad I think you made clear yesterday
02:10:12 Squad I think you made clear yesterday your continued support for Mr Scott is that fair that is fair yes uh to what extent were you aware uh that
02:10:25 aware uh that there had been a significant falling out between hn 109 and Scott I was not aware immediately at the time but I heard it I don't know how I
02:10:37 time but I heard it I don't know how I heard it now were you aware of it by the time you assumed the post of head of cquad it was when I was head of SE Squad I I did
02:10:46 I I did hear such
02:10:49 hear such mmers did your difference of opinion about Scott cause any difficulties in your working relationship
02:11:04 relationship no would it be fair to describe hn 109 as a
02:11:18 disciplinarian I never thought it in into these terms um no it was just a reasonable officer I can't remember being smart in it in terms of attitudes to
02:11:29 in terms of attitudes to discipline how would you compare your attitude with that of hn
02:11:39 109 I think he probably more easygoing than he was but U I don't see any great difference between the two of us we can take that document down now
02:11:52 us we can take that document down now thank you in your w statement you tell us that you occasionally attended the biweekly meetings in the SDS safe house could you explain to us why you did
02:12:04 could you explain to us why you did so oh I just wanted to keep in contact with the men on the SDS a men officers on the
02:12:11 on the SDS for what purpose gain intelligence and see there had any real problems were affecting them
02:12:23 how closely in touch with the SDS were
02:12:33 you i' see I'd be in contact with them on a pry regular basis how
02:12:43 basis how forthcoming were the uos in your presence as a detective Chief superintendent compared to as a detective Chief Inspector I think they were rather more
02:12:57 I think they were rather more guarded what did you do about that I just tried to be
02:13:08 friendly to what extent do you think you were able to elicit what challenges the SDS was facing during this
02:13:22 period I tried to help where I could so my question was really driving at how
02:13:23 at how F how much uh to what it how well did you understand what the SDS was doing during this period I think I understood
02:13:40 during this period I think I understood what they were doing pretty well and you were seeing a lot of their intelligence reporting is that right I would have been un would yes in terms of other paperwork um you've told us when you were DCI I've got the impression there wasn't very much being gener
02:13:54 much being gener ated was that still the case when you were head of C Squad I think
02:14:06 so can I ask now about joining criminal Enterprises were you ever involved as head of C Squad to the best of your
02:14:24 head of C Squad to the best of your recollection in advising or deciding whether or not a UCO should join a criminal
02:14:26 criminal Enterprise can't be called that now now can can you help us with the system was doing so left to the discretion of the undercover
02:14:42 officer partly they usually sort sort guidance these these
02:14:51 events were these matters discussed with you through the SDS chain of command they would have been I I think yes was there any threshold of gravity of offense that
02:15:07 offense that required more detailed consideration by senior
02:15:13 officers the chief is would make his mind out as to whether I should be involved in those things or not can you help us at all in Broad terms where the lines were drawn in terms of gravity of offense no I
02:15:29 terms of gravity of offense no I can't can we take it from what we looked at earlier that something like fly posting would be regarded as trivial and you would not be troubled with it as a chief of Chief
02:15:42 chief of Chief superintendent one of the men have been arrested I'm sure i' would have been told but in terms of committing the offense of fly posting and not getting arrested is that something that would just happen and you would not expect to
02:15:55 just happen and you would not expect to know about I would expect to know about it you
02:16:00 it you would and how often were SDS officers committing criminal offenses never to my experience I don't think are you sure about
02:16:13 think are you sure about that sure as I can be after all these years
02:16:23 yes and were questions of joining CRI criminal Enterprise dealt with orally or in
02:16:27 writing in writing I would thought
02:16:40 mostly can I ask you now about a specific SDS manager please do consult the U key if you need to it's h86
02:16:58 yes yeah got thank you I've seen it now how well did you know hn 86 quite well I
02:17:05 think did you ever hear hn 86 betray any racist attitudes
02:17:26 attitudes no did he ever use any racist language in your presence no he didn't are you sure about
02:17:35 that not as far as I can remember I can't remember in never saying anything like
02:17:44 that can I move now to a separate topic can we have up 221 one one
02:18:08 this is a an intelligence report from an SDS officer Andy Kohl's dated the 26th of March
02:18:09 of March 1991 it's about a UK defense company uh could we have a look please at paragraphs 2 and
02:18:36 three blank a pacifist vehemently opposed to militarism has recently set up a new anti-war group the blank the group is based at his home address blank and seeks to end the research design production and sale of weapons by a UK
02:18:54 production and sale of weapons by a UK defense company blank intends to involve church and peace groups in what amounts to a personal Vendetta between the company and himself and to that end has produced a newsletter blank briefing
02:19:05 produced a newsletter blank briefing which will be produced quarterly blank's major interest is in staging nonviolent direct action against the company and he has recently been arrested for acts of criminal damage against the head office
02:19:19 criminal damage against the head office of the company and against a product of theirs at blank he intends to continue in this vein and is laced his Target is the company's
02:19:31 is laced his Target is the company's office the precise nature of his action is not yet known but he is only too aware of the difficulty in gaining access to the premises and if we could go down now
02:19:47 please a copy of the spring 1991 issue of blank briefing is attached together with a copy of a flip produced by blank regarding the
02:20:00 regarding the blank bearing that in mind could we take that down now and have 30705
02:20:13 up this is a security service note for file uh dated the 16th of April 1991 so
02:20:27 file uh dated the 16th of April 1991 so couple of weeks or so later on could we have paragraph uh well paragraph two first of all to set the
02:20:36 scene hn 86 volunteered the news that he had just broken within C Squad that their Chief detective uh superintendent Tony weight was being transferred to the National Post Office at Heath throw and being replaced by detective chief chief
02:20:47 replaced by detective chief chief superintendent Bob Potter in a straight swap with effect from the 29th of April so to that's to locate it it's it's
02:21:03 so to that's to locate it it's it's right at the end of your first stint as a head of C Squad could we now go over the page to paragraph
02:21:15 6B report of blank referred to blank a pacifist vly opposed to militarism who had recently set up a new anti-war group he appears to be waging a personal
02:21:27 he appears to be waging a personal Vendetta against a UK defense company he has recently been arrested for acts of criminal damage against their head office and against a product of theirs at last year's blank he now plans to
02:21:39 at last year's blank he now plans to Target their blank office C who had been passed the above report by F2 is asking for permission to advise the company as
02:21:50 for permission to advise the company as a list X firm in general terms of blank intent ention to Target the
02:22:01 intent ention to Target the office our understanding is that this is a reference to the intelligence in the report we've just looked at do you
02:22:03 at do you agree it would seem to
02:22:15 agree it would seem to yes and we if we read on it says hn 86 wish to consult hn2 first and confirm whether he has been convicted of the above offense if so it will be on the public record and if we scroll down to the
02:22:29 the footnote hn 86 phone back on the 17th of April to say that there was no problem in our passing the information on to the company as it was fairly well known in blank circle of activity see
02:22:41 blank circle of activity see informed as we understand it what's happening there is the then DCI of the sdsh
02:22:51 sdsh 86 is checking with his undercover officer Andy Kohl's whether it is safe
02:23:05 officer Andy Kohl's whether it is safe to pass on the intelligence the answer is yes and so the security service is being authorized to pass on um some information to a listex company uh to protect it from the activity we've just
02:23:24 protect it from the activity we've just read about is that a Fair understanding of the documents I believe so from the document that would seem
02:23:37 reasonable and was uh intelligence used in this sort of way to protect list X companies from crime from time to time it probably would have been yes are you able to assists with how frequently this sort of thing
02:23:48 this sort of thing happen not really no are you able to help us with whether intelligence would have been shared with L list X companies for vetting
02:24:01 purposes that I don't
02:24:07 know are you able to help us with whether intelligence uh to protect uh companies which were not on list X from crime was ever passed to them
02:24:24 crime was ever passed to them not to my knowledge is it something that might have happened I Envision it happening is could we take that down now please could we have up
02:24:51 33514 this is a security service note for file 12th of November 1990 signed by um s Remington went on to greater things
02:25:06 yes animal rights I drew on the points in your nff on the 1st of November at the board strategy discussion on the 6th of November we were asked to conclude our consultations as quickly as possible so that advice could be taken into
02:25:18 so that advice could be taken into account in the final paper could we go to page six please this is a security service note for file after the October 1990
02:25:33 1990 ACO conference it's dated the 1st of November
02:25:44 1990 um that's a signature page can we dial back one to page five paragraph four please
02:26:02 the context for this uh is a the question of where animal right policing of animal rights extremism should sit I'll give you a moment uh to look at that but it's towards the bottom of the page bottom of the paragraph that I'm particularly
02:26:19 interested
02:26:49 for for
02:27:46 I've read that quickly now yes well I I'll read out the specific bit uh that um I'm going to focus on weit also mentioned that the pharmaceutical companies themselves were also running penetration operations he did not have or was not prepared to impart much in
02:28:02 or was not prepared to impart much in the way of detail but he said that these companies who have enormous financial investments at stake are using these means of gathering information on animal rights activists it is clear that they
02:28:13 rights activists it is clear that they are also exerting considerable pressures both direct and indirect on the police for information and action against the activists can you help us first of all with how did you know that
02:28:28 with how did you know that pharmaceutical companies were running penetration operations I can't remember that
02:28:39 now is it right that you were aware that pharmaceutical companies were running penetration operations I must have been told that at the
02:28:50 told that at the time was there contact between que special branch and pharmaceutical companies for the purposes of protecting them from the criminal activities of animal rights activists I think I can
02:29:06 animal rights activists I think I can recall speaking to the pharmaceutical Industries some of the bigger companies and can you help us with at what level that exchange of communication would take place who who were you speaking
02:29:23 were you speaking to it would have been head heads of security I would imagine I can't remember now sure and can you help us with the sorts of things that they were saying to you and the sorts of things that you were
02:29:40 and the sorts of things that you were saying to them without um divulging any sources no I don't believe I can perhaps I can put it this way what were their concerns security of their premises and any
02:29:58 security of their premises and any experiments they were taking place and what were you able to do to help them to make sure that any demonstrations outside their premises would be
02:30:14 covered were you able to give them any advanced warning of nonv nonviolent direct
02:30:15 direct action I believe so
02:30:29 you go on to say that they were exerting considerable pressures both indirect and direct as recorded by the security service can you help us with what form that pressure took not now no I
02:30:45 can't is it your recollection that these companies um were very keen for the police to do something about animal rights
02:30:55 rights extremists I think they would have liked us to
02:30:56 us to yes did they offer you any assistance no not that I can
02:31:14 remember thank you if we could take that document uh down now uh please can I ask for 26742 to be put up
02:31:28 uh this is um a document from September
02:31:34 September 1990 if we could look uh first of all it's an SDS report from John dyes if we could have a look at paragraphs 2 and three
02:31:49 please during the weekend of the 21st to the 2 3rd of September 1990 Ritz were served on North London anarchists Paul grait Dave Morris and Helen Steel on behalf of the McDonald's Restaurant
02:32:05 behalf of the McDonald's Restaurant Group to date Andrew Clark and Jonathan Farrell have not been served with Ritz but service is expected the basis for the Civil process by McDonald's is the publication and distribution of a fact sheet by London Greenpeace entitled
02:32:19 sheet by London Greenpeace entitled what's wrong with McDonald's and all the for mentioned individuals have at some stage circulated what is claimed to be a libelous and defamatory document only Paul gravit however was in any way
02:32:32 Paul gravit however was in any way responsible for its compilation which has remained unaltered since its initial production almost six years
02:32:51 ago uh you were head of C Squad at this time would this intelligence have been brought to your attention yes I believe it would can you recall that
02:33:07 happening no I can't uh John dyes appears to have been admitted uh
02:33:20 admitted uh from those who were the subject of rits can you recall whether there was any discussion within the SDS about uh
02:33:26 about uh avoiding John Diner's involvement in these civil proceedings I can't recall that now no might there have been it's
02:33:41 been it's possible the SDS had been reporting on London green pieces campaign against McDonald's for some years by this point you will recall yesterday we we looked at a a document from the mid
02:34:01 1980s was there any contact between you and McDonald's when you were head of C Squad I don't recall any no might there have
02:34:13 been it is
02:34:31 possible given that McDonald's was the subject of some nonviolent direct action is it likely that there was contact between special branch and McDonald's it is
02:34:40 possible are you able to help us with whether or not McDonald's indicated to special Branch before issuing the rits that it was going to do so
02:34:51 so no I don't are you are you able to help us from your memory as to whether or not McDonald's were aware that special Branch had a source within London
02:35:08 Branch had a source within London Greenpeace no I don't I didn't I can't remember that I don't think
02:35:21 so did you have any contact with McDonald's solicitors bar lied and Gilbert not that I can
02:35:31 recall the inquiry has seen intelligence reports from John dyes in which there is reference to the legal
02:35:43 legal advice uh which Dave Morris and Helen steel
02:35:45 steel received at the early stages of this litigation can you recall any of that crossing your
02:36:01 crossing your desk no I really can't is it likely that it did so it's
02:36:08 probably would the fact that one of uh the SS's officers was reporting on legally privileged advice have rung any alarm Bells with you at at that
02:36:24 you at at that time I think it probably would have done it didn't when you were the DCI uh of the SDS as we went through
02:36:36 DCI uh of the SDS as we went through earlier in your evidence why would the answer be
02:36:38 answer be different
02:36:39 different as head of C
02:36:54 Squad we must have thought about it again I kind question further than that are you able to assist us with whether or not you did anything about D's reporting on privileged legal advice
02:37:05 reporting on privileged legal advice relating to the case that became known as M
02:37:07 as M liel apart from that the normal circulation to the security service now
02:37:22 account can we take that down now please special Branch had an industrial desk didn't it
02:37:29 didn't it yes to what extent did you have contact as head of cquad with the industrial desk it's no longer as active as it had
02:37:40 desk it's no longer as active as it had been but we used to keeping contact with this industrial section useful information about movement of extremists and was the Industrial desk in contact with
02:37:59 industry yes I think they were and subject to security considerations and Source protection would they have been
02:38:15 Source protection would they have been communicating at least some information to Industry to protect it from the activities of extremists I would so yes can you help us with whether or not this extended to the identities of
02:38:34 extremists I don't think we would tell them no I don't think we would be telling them about
02:38:42 extremists no not identifying them as an individual no why
02:38:49 not you didn't feel it was our duty to do do
02:38:55 that can you recall what rules pertain to doing
02:38:56 to doing so no I
02:39:11 can't the inquiry's understanding is that was officially prohibited my next question to you is do you have any understanding as to whether unofficially members of the industrial desk were in fact
02:39:25 desk were in fact supplying the names of extremists to Industry in order that they could avoid employing them not to my knowledge
02:39:46 no can I move now to the question of the relationship between John dyes and Helen Steel
02:39:54 is it right that you would have seen surveillance photographs uh which included photographs of John dyes whilst he was
02:40:06 photographs of John dyes whilst he was undercover I'm not aware of that no that something that might have
02:40:13 happened might have done but I have no recollection of
02:40:24 it what was your understanding of how close John dyes had got to Helen steel I didn't know anything about them being
02:40:34 being close did you understand that Helen steel was a prominent activist I knew of Helen steel
02:40:50 activist I knew of Helen steel yes and you knew that John dyes was seeking to infiltrate the ALF yes I knew
02:41:00 that and that Helen steel would be a person of interest to the police for that purpose yes would you have expected John dyes to get close to Helen steel
02:41:14 steel no I'm using the word close here not in a sexual
02:41:20 way you she was an important figure in in the movement at the time and I would have expected him to gain what information he could from her yes and that would involve befriending
02:41:32 involve befriending her possibly I don't have know inclination of knowing when or what she
02:41:46 did did any undercover officer or manager from the SDS tell you anything about what John dyes was doing viav Helen steel
02:42:11 no if you had seen surveillance photographs uh which either revealed or certainly showed that there was a possibility that John Dy was in a sexual
02:42:24 possibility that John Dy was in a sexual relationship with Helen steel what would your reaction have been I would have been against it would advise him to break not through
02:42:47 on given your acceptance of sexual relationships under cover would your action have gone any further than
02:43:01 advice I think it would have done but I it's hypothetical I never
02:43:09 did and I'm afraid another hypothetical question but if that advice had been ignored would John dyes have been left to manage the situation himself
02:43:23 to manage the situation himself if we'd have known of it and he didn't accept advice he would have been withdrawn from the
02:43:30 squad how well did you know John dyes pretty well did you meet him in the safe house oh
02:43:44 house oh yes can you help us uh with uh how he behaved in the safe house he was just one of the
02:43:56 house he was just one of the officers he well associated with the other officers and with the senior management he's a relable vable man could you help us with the sorts of terms in which he spoke of
02:44:19 activists was it he did uses slang an Australian slang word about extremists but I can't remember what the word is now I'm
02:44:33 sorry complimentary or uncomplimentary uncom I beg your pardon
02:44:48 uncomplimentary was he derogatory about the activists he was mixing with not
02:44:52 not unduly you've qualified that with not unduly could you help us with what you mean by
02:45:06 mean by that I mean he didn't like every other officer on SDs would would unburden himself occasionally on you and referring to his colleagues in doogy
02:45:13 doogy terms can I take it from that answer that being derogatory about activists was
02:45:21 was common within the group
02:45:32 yes would that have extended to comments about female activists I can't remember any such
02:45:44 no but not of rule them out I wouldn't rule them out no we now know that John dyes did Embark
02:45:57 we now know that John dyes did Embark upon a lengthy sexual relationship with Helen
02:46:04 steel would greater oversight have helped to avoid that
02:46:11 happening I don't know I I would suppose
02:46:26 so and it might have either deterred the relationship or LED to it uh being stopped yes I think
02:46:35 so was the failure to exercise greater oversight something that you would accept exposed women including Helen
02:46:48 accept exposed women including Helen steel to more risk of being deceived sexually
02:46:52 I'm not sure I understand the
02:47:01 question do you accept that a a a lack of oversight meant there was more chance of women being sexually
02:47:15 women being sexually deceived we did what we could within the number of officers we had and you couldn't do give it coverage where we didn't have
02:47:29 give it coverage where we didn't have officers but officers could have been regularly reminded not to do this couldn't
02:47:31 couldn't they it's not really necessary to keep on telling men not to not to have sexual relationships they knew there was against the
02:47:49 against the wuls and they could have been asked couldn't they whether they were um having any difficulties complying with those rules to try and head off any problems they could have
02:48:01 they could have yes so do you accept that more could have been done more can always be
02:48:17 done you said in your witness statement that it was unlikely that such women would ever learn the undercover officer's true identity no doubt at the time you thought that
02:48:29 no doubt at the time you thought that but it doesn't make it all right does it no because a deceitful sexual relationship deprives a woman of in formed Choice doesn't
02:48:43 it I can't imagine a woman making a choice on that basis well if you are a far l activist whether or not the man you are sleeping with is a police officer is
02:49:01 sleeping with is a police officer is likely to be an important consideration isn't it it would be but then men do tell lies to women and when they do so as serving police officers that is completely wrong isn't it it is wrong
02:49:12 isn't it it is wrong yes now that you know that John dyes did deceive Helen steel into a length sexual and emotional
02:49:25 relationship do you still think that John dyes deserved his Commendation yes I do why he he was providing good information he was doing
02:49:36 providing good information he was doing he was sent doing what he was sent there to
02:49:42 to do does that amount to an assertion that the ends justify the means that's what it does
02:49:55 and that the rights of the women concerned are subordinate to the intelligence that was being
02:50:05 obtained I don't think so why not they were free they made their
02:50:16 choices but they were not informed choices were they not completely informed though
02:50:23 can we uh have up now please 526
02:50:31 526 796 we're moving to the question of John D's
02:50:36 D's arrest uh during the course of the pole tax riots in early
02:50:51 1990 could we have this should be 526 7961 one bottom of page two going up to top of Page Three
02:51:03 please sorry it's a minute sheet about it um bot could we have the minute three on the left hand page thank you we discuss these matters I've spoken personally to DAC manl 8 area and he is aware Arrangements have been agreed
02:51:16 aware Arrangements have been agreed between us in the event that DS dines under his assumed identity does not attend court on the 10th of April 1990 to answer the bail on the
02:51:28 April 1990 to answer the bail on the charges laid those arrangements will necessarily involve only one other person detective Chief superintendent Ram who is in overall charge of the
02:51:55 Ram who is in overall charge of the investigations into offenses arising out of the disorder on the 31st of March 1990 even DCS Ram will not be made conscious of the real identity of kadigan or mpsb connections I have directed that DS D will not attend court on the 10th of April 1990 and I will personally
02:52:08 April 1990 and I will personally supervise a necessary action that will have to be taken initially to protect D from legal repercussions and subsequently to canel
02:52:21 repercussions and subsequently to canel cancel all records of kagan's arrest and non-appearance at court I have fully briefed Chief superintendent C on that action and given explicit directions
02:52:34 action and given explicit directions regarding the personal safety of DS dyes and the protection of his undercover role at present DS D's role has not been compromised and he can remain in situ but a close watch will be kept on the
02:52:46 but a close watch will be kept on the situation in case it becomes necessary to withdraw him if you could scroll down you will know that D Stein's received minor injuries during his arrest but he
02:52:59 minor injuries during his arrest but he has now recovered and no lasting damage is anti anticipated I will keep you informed of developments if you could scroll down to confirm the signature that's from Commander Ops um Mr gun at that uh
02:53:17 Mr gun at that uh time the background is John D has been arrested at the pole tax Riot is that something that you would have been made aware of at the time I would have expected to yes and the chief
02:53:28 expected to yes and the chief superintendent C referred to in this minute is you isn't it I believe so yes uh so can we take it that din's arrest
02:53:43 uh so can we take it that din's arrest was something that had gone up the chain of command at least as far as Commander Ops including you sorry yes
02:53:52 is it likely that the courts uh in dealing with the pole tax
02:54:07 courts uh in dealing with the pole tax riots were running lists at which uh the cases of people charged with offenses arising from the disturbance uh were appearing at court not aware of such paper I beg a pardon not aw I I don't mean a piece of paper I mean the way the courts operated they'd a morning
02:54:19 courts operated they'd a morning where uh people accused of uh being involved in the riots and committing offenses were all dealt with at the same time
02:54:32 time um I don't seem to have been that much involved with this I can't remember anyway I remember is it likely uh that when John dyes was going to appear or
02:54:46 when John dyes was going to appear or would have been required to attend court that he would have been doing so with other activists I would assume so yes
02:54:56 yes uh is it likely therefore that if he didn't
02:54:58 didn't attend as per Commander gun's Direction uh an application would have been made by the prosecution for an arrest
02:55:10 arrest warrant I really don't
02:55:26 know well in what circumstances would the prosecution not apply for an arrest warrant for someone arrested in the PO in the pole tax riots who failed to appear in court I remember that decisions were at the
02:55:35 time do you have any recollection as to whether or not an arrest warrant for John dyes was actually
02:55:44 issued I can't remember any such War being issued
02:55:53 now is that just a lack of memory or an assertion that one wasn't issued it's a lack of
02:55:59 memory is it likely that the result of the course of action directed by Commander gun was that an arrest warrant would have been issued in the name that
02:56:12 would have been issued in the name that John dines had given to the police which was Wayne
02:56:13 was Wayne kadigan I don't know
02:56:26 can you recall whether you or any of the senior officers you discussed this issue with gave any consideration uh to the fact that a an arrest warrant might be issued in a false name and an application made to
02:56:39 false name and an application made to the court for such a warrant uh using a false name I think I could remember talk about such things yes
02:56:52 about such things yes can you recall what the thinking was not really
02:56:58 really no would operational security have trumped other
02:57:03 considerations it would I think with the squad
02:57:12 yes separate and final Topic at any time whether is the DCI or the chief superint dependent of SE squad or otherwise can you
02:57:23 otherwise can you recall a government intelligence coordinator or inspector
02:57:33 inspector visiting or overseeing or auditing the SDS no I can't can you recall a
02:57:44 SDS no I can't can you recall a gentleman with the name Jerry Warner
02:57:58 no doesn't mean anything to me now same questions in relation to the es Squad surveillance
02:58:09 team what's the question do you recall a government intelligence coordinator or inspector visiting or overseeing or auditing es squad or any other part of mpsb
02:58:19 excuse me not my knowledge
02:58:27 no Mr wait you've been very patient with my
02:58:32 my questioning that concludes this phase of the
02:58:37 the process is it um expected that the rule 10 process can be done over the lunch and break I expect that it can be sir yes um we'll uh rise now until 2 there may be further questions
02:58:48 may be further questions asked of you but they will be asked at two if there are any right you are thank you very much