SDS manager HN115 'Tony Waite' testifies about Bob Lambert fathering a child ('TBS') with activist 'Jackie' while undercover in 1985. Waite admits knowing about pregnancy, taking no action, not recording it, regarding sex as inevitable, prioritizing intelligence value over misconduct, and giving no thought to impact on deceived women or child's welfare.
00:01:28 e e
00:02:27 how do I know it's
00:02:33 thank
00:02:44 you we know that uh there is SDS reporting about uh activism against MacDonald's including the London Greenpeace campaign but also other um campaigning Acts including nonviolent direct
00:02:59 direct action was that a concern to special branch
00:03:01 branch we were certainly interested yes what was being done with the intelligence that was being
00:03:13 intelligence that was being gathered I don't know at this stage but I would assume we pass it on to the security service and uniform Branch were necessary if we had that sort of information and what did you understand
00:03:27 information and what did you understand that uniform Branch would be doing with it
00:03:32 it or policing the OCC any demonstrations outside McDonald's buildings would they have been warning McDonald's about forthcoming events that I don't know is that
00:03:47 events that I don't know is that possible certainly it would be possible yes did you have any contact personally uh with uh the security team at
00:04:04 uh with uh the security team at McDonald's no did you ever know a man called Sid
00:04:16 Nicholson his name doesn't mean anything to me now I'm afraid head of security at McDonald's and a former superintendent in the Metropolitan Police Service no I'm afraid I don't remember him or Terry Carrol no
00:04:35 did Bob Lambert tell you what role he was playing in the London Greenpeace campaign against McDonald's he probably did but I can't remember
00:04:42 remember now I appreciate it's an ambitious
00:04:58 now I appreciate it's an ambitious question uh in the circumstances but can you help us with whether or not he told you uh that uh he had been involved in the production of leaflets for the campaign
00:05:04 I think he may have said something about producing
00:05:06 producing leaflets yes I think so but I'm not certain can you recall anything further
00:05:22 certain can you recall anything further about what he said to you or might have said to you oh no no could we take the document down now please and have 742 720
00:05:35 it's tab B96
00:05:42 [Music]
00:05:52 sir thank you this is a report dated the 10th of October 1986 it's about the animal Liberation Front I'm interested in paragraph three please could we have
00:06:03 in paragraph three please could we have that expanded it's a a report about the printing of leaflets in conversation privacy is enthusiastic about this new Venture he believes it will be possible to produce more material along the lines of the recent interviews with Alf
00:06:18 of the recent interviews with Alf activists which included directions for making incendiary devices apart from printing the regular Alf action reports and alfsg newsletter he anticipates orders from local animal rights and
00:06:38 orders from local animal rights and Anarchist groups who will be well suited to his competitive rates in fact one of his first orders is from London green piece for the printing of a new McDonald's fact sheet a clearly lious
00:06:56 McDonald's fact sheet a clearly lious publication certain to be of interest to the lawyers of this worldwide hamburger chain if we could zoom back out again please and if we could go to see who signed the report at the end
00:07:09 that's uh signed by Eric Docker but is it likely that you would have seen it as
00:07:17 well 86 it's
00:07:29 possible in fact it might beit probable yes what was the relevance of reporting that the leaflet was clearly
00:07:40 liess I don't know what would have been done with that
00:07:46 intelligence
00:07:51 um we pass on usual to
00:08:00 box and it if necessary we could pass it on to uniform barch for interest but I can't remember doing any of
00:08:14 remember doing any of this do you have are you able to help us with whether or not McDonald's would have been informed that this was happening I don't know that they were could we take that document down
00:08:25 were could we take that document down now please and could we have up moving on to a different topic 20237
00:08:43 [Music] uh if we expand that please it's an SDS report signed by you the following information has been received from a secret and reliable source the greenham common women's peace Camp holds a current account at the national
00:08:55 current account at the national Westminster Bank 270 upper Street North one and there are the bank details which we've redacted there are at present seven authorized signatures for the
00:09:07 seven authorized signatures for the account and you will see that one of your undercover officers Lee bonser is amongst
00:09:16 amongst them why was it necessary to report the greenham common women's peace Camp Bank Account
00:09:31 Details it was Intelligence giving an idea of the background these this
00:09:39 organization no immediate use but it may it probably taken and the of chance that it would be necessary or would be useful was there any was there any guidance about the circumstances in
00:09:57 guidance about the circumstances in which it was acceptable to record um confidential information such as
00:10:08 confidential information such as this I'm not aware of any no did you address your mind to the legality
00:10:13 legality of recording intelligence such as this no I don't think I
00:10:27 did were the greenham common women a sufficient threat in terms of criminality to justify recording their Bank details they could have been subsequently they weren't at the
00:10:42 time can I infer from that answer that this was recorded then just in case I don't remember the form but it's probably that's the reason why we kept
00:10:59 it would you accept now that it was excessively intrusive
00:11:10 probably can we take that down now I I could take you to a very similar report which shows that h88 was a signatory for Hackney cnd's bank
00:11:17 bank account but if I were to do that would your would the substance of your answers be any different no I don't think so
00:11:36 your officers would from time to time enter private homes wouldn't they in their undercover identities probably yes and Report what happened there in the usual way
00:11:52 happened there in the usual way yes did you have in mind any rules or guidance as to the circumstances in which it was proper for a police officer to enter someone's home
00:12:07 no in the normal course of Uniform service There Are Rules governing that aren't there I believe so did you give any thought to the legality in the circumstances in which it would be legal for an undercover
00:12:23 it would be legal for an undercover officer to enter the home of a member of the
00:12:26 the public I don't think the thought occur to me
00:12:30 could we have the YouTube stream back on
00:12:40 please sorry
00:12:58 off
00:23:57 e e
00:24:28 told I've got that
00:24:43 right thank you could we have 26409 up please say tab B 50
00:25:01 sir this is an intelligence report from hn9 dated the 27th of March 1985 um page one paragraph
00:25:13 1985 um page one paragraph 2 thank you little is known of privacy's early life though it is understood that she was brought up in the privacy or privacy area by her own account she experienced a traditional religious education which progressed to reading for a degree in theology at University a fellow student was privacy and RCP
00:25:27 fellow student was privacy and RCP member who first became involved with the part in April 1983 he was posted to the Privacy branch in August
00:25:33 in August 1984 at some stage he moved in with privacy at his flat at the address in
00:25:44 privacy at his flat at the address in par 1 an arrangement which can only have been for convenience since privacy is a committed
00:25:45 committed homosexual evidently regular propaganda from privacy had its effect and privacy started to attend RCP public meetings
00:26:01 started to attend RCP public meetings paper sales Etc in August 1984 for if not earlier and so it goes on the passage that I want to draw your particular attention is that which records uh the identity uh or the sexual
00:26:13 records uh the identity uh or the sexual orientation of a member of the public in terms a committed homosexual would you accept that that is
00:26:24 homosexual would you accept that that is a homophobic way in which to record that person's sexual orientation do homophobic but somebody you thought that was worth reporting why the word
00:26:37 reporting why the word committed I don't know
00:26:45 that it's pejorative isn't it I don't think
00:26:55 so was there a purpose in recording a person's sexual orientation
00:27:02 you can envisage circumstances in which it would be important
00:27:07 yes what would they
00:27:11 be it show you connections between
00:27:22 people could we take that down now please I want to ask you about the interaction between the SDS and the surveillance team is it right uh that you would have dealings with the
00:27:40 that you would have dealings with the surveillance team yes and that you would from time to time see photographs which they'd
00:27:44 they'd taken I'm not sure about that at this stage but uh it would be probable for example would they bring over photographs from demonstrations so that your officers could seek to
00:27:55 that your officers could seek to identify people uh who had attended demonstrations or partaken in disorder it's also
00:28:16 public and would it be right that you would therefore get to see on occasions your own officers in photographs taken by the surveillance team it's clearly possible yes perhaps at a
00:28:28 demonstration or perhaps if a particular location was the subject of surveillance are both of those things possible yeah possible can you recall it happening no I can't I'm sorry is that simply because of the AFF fluxion of time I believe
00:28:50 so when you were recruiting future undercover officers was anything said to them at the recruitment stage about sexual relationships with members of the public in their undercover identities
00:29:06 apart from warning them of the inadvisability of gettinga involved in an affair no I don't think there
00:29:16 was that is such advice is referred to in your witness statement what is your evidence about when that advice was given You' have given it when in the interview that you'd have with somebody when they wanted to join the branch
00:29:34 when they wanted to join the branch and was a possibility they could get approached sexually and advise them against
00:29:44 it a number of your former officers
00:29:46 officers uh
00:29:47 uh have different
00:29:55 Recollections for example Bob Lambert says that he was advised
00:30:11 says that he was advised by a senior field officer on a trip to bin that wordss to the effect that in the context of sexual relations it's going to
00:30:13 going to happen keep it casual was that in fact the de facto advice that was
00:30:29 advice that was given I can imagine it as a an attitude yes were you aware of that attitude at the time I don't think I was was it an attitude that you shared
00:31:01 no the advice to keep it casual would adva would involve avoiding two problems that you identified in your witness statement namely a deceived woman wanting to know too much and taking up too much
00:31:18 too much time are you sure that the advice wasn't it's going to happen keep it casual no I don't think
00:31:31 so Bob Lambert has also given evidence that on a jog with a manager he was given advice about sexual
00:31:46 relationships to the same of General effect did Bob Lambert jog with you or any of your management team I can't remember that might one of your management team have said something to that effect to Bob Lambert
00:32:05 I'm sorry I was talking when you were talking then I didn't get the question forgive me first of all please do say what you were trying to say when I spoke we did we did used to go jogging at lunchtime the management
00:32:21 team but uh I can't remember we were usually too busy running to breathe them and talk about
00:32:32 things can you recall the subject of sexual relationships coming up not really
00:32:45 no is it possible that they did it's possible and what would the tenor of a casual conversation about sexual relationships undercover uh have likely consisted of as most of the members of the SDS were married men
00:32:56 were married men or Poli Poli woman was not married it was accepted that you these things were not
00:33:05 advisable because it would involve
00:33:19 infidelity that yes any any other reason sorry and the same arguments as before that too much time would be taken up with it and that want to know too much about
00:33:31 you are than it might be um time consuming and um a security risk because probing questions would be asked did you give any further thought to the potential consequences of sexual
00:33:45 potential consequences of sexual relationships between your officers and members of the public I didn't know things are going on like that well you were I think it's fair to say from your statement aware that there was at least
00:33:58 statement aware that there was at least a risk oh yes is yes it's always a risk isn't that did you give any thought to the potential consequences Beyond those we've just mentioned not really
00:34:11 no so presumably you thought that this was a risk worth
00:34:18 running no I don't think it I thought it was a risk worth running because I didn't know it was so widespread and hoped it wasn't because they were married people I think that's not quite what I'm
00:34:30 I think that's not quite what I'm driving at Mr wait you plainly did continue with deploying your offices when there was to your knowledge a risk of
00:34:42 risk of a sexual relationship so you did run that risk didn't you I think there that risk between any any organization has young men and young women
00:34:57 young men and young women together did you regard it in those terms as just normal I suppose I would have done yes so did you regard the risk as one which had to be taken and was
00:35:15 unavoidable do what we wanted to do yes I suppose I did yes and was that influenced At All by how important the work of the SDS was considered to
00:35:27 considered to be certainly by us it was considered to be
00:35:38 be important and was that reinforced by the counter subversion uh element that you were assisting the security service with I'm sorry I don't follow the question was the importance of the work
00:35:49 question was the importance of the work that special Branch was doing reinforced in your mind by the importance of assisting the security service yes I think so
00:36:05 is it right that you took no further steps to avoid your officers getting involved in sexual
00:36:10 relationships I couldn't imagine that you could do your job without getting
00:36:22 involved was that your impression at the time at the time that was my impression yes an
00:36:28 inevitability in the right circum ances possible yes the inquiry has heard evidence that
00:36:40 yes the inquiry has heard evidence that the officer we know is hn6 7 and if you need to
00:36:41 need to consult uh the ciper list without uttering the name of course uh you can refresh your memory as to who that is
00:37:08 oh yes I've seen that I've seen the name yeah thank you uh we've had evidence that or his own evidence um was that he had a one night stand with an
00:37:17 with an activist did you know anything about that no I didn't it's the first time I've heard of that that
00:37:28 I've heard of that that allegation well it's a cut it's actually a conf it's a confession um would it follow from what from your answers up to this point that that's not
00:37:41 answers up to this point that that's not something you would expect an officer to tell
00:37:42 tell you yes I wouldn't expect it and something that you would not have been particularly interested in hearing because you regarded it as
00:37:54 because you regarded it as inevitable didn't regard it as inevitable I thought it probable or possible
00:38:09 rather there is an allegation in relation to the same officer that he fathered a child did you ever hear any suggestion that hn6 7 had fathered a
00:38:23 that hn6 7 had fathered a child no no I don't it's the first time I've heard this any rumors anything like that
00:38:29 nothing I I had I'm I'm quite
00:38:41 surprised hn12 you may again wish to consult the cipher
00:38:59 key yeah yes as you were shown when you were making your statement he
00:39:01 he told um
00:39:05 told um investigators that he had in fact engaged in sexual activity on two occasions uh with a woman whilst he was
00:39:16 occasions uh with a woman whilst he was under cover your witness statement says that at that stage you didn't know about it is that still the position or has
00:39:32 it is that still the position or has anything come back to you since you made your witness statement No I am most surprised particularly knowing the individual involved turning now to Mike chitty I asked you earlier about the woman that
00:39:50 asked you earlier about the woman that we know as Lizzy when did you first find out that Mike chitty had been involved in a sexual relationship with Lizzy I think it was doing this
00:39:58 inquiry do you know uh did you ever hear anything about other sexual activity between Mike chitty and female activists he was mixing with no I
00:40:16 didn't are you sure that nothing was said there was no banter or anything like
00:40:18 like that there's certainly nothing I can
00:40:31 remember Bob Lambert has said that he was a little bit naive when it came to relationships uh as he deployed
00:40:42 relationships uh as he deployed undercover is that a description of him that you would agree
00:40:51 with I would think so they was he was a married man made two children and not
00:41:02 married man made two children and not completely couldn't have been completely naive but yes I think that fair comment on that did you address your mind to that at the time I don't think it is subject to O is really
00:41:09 really no so can I take it that you didn't do anything about it I didn't do anything because I didn't know
00:41:20 anything Mr Lambert has told us that there was nothing in his Legend to deter a sexual relationship for example a fake girl
00:41:31 girl friend no I I think that was probably right he was a a labor offenser and he's for legend why wasn't he advised to work something into his
00:41:51 he advised to work something into his Legend uh that might have prevented a sexual relationship from developing I don't know I can't think we're reason now would it be fair to say that uos were not advised to do so during your
00:42:06 tenure I suppose so
00:42:15 yes there is a woman who we are referring to as CTS again you may wish to consult the cipher list
00:42:38 [Music] yes can't recall that name from the past at
00:42:45 at all this is the first woman with whom Bob lbert had a sexual relationship undercover so far as we are aware Mr Lambert believes that you would
00:43:03 aware Mr Lambert believes that you would have seen photographs from demonstration which would have shown the two of them together might that have happened it's possible because I did Cover several demonstrations where
00:43:16 Cover several demonstrations where bubble was there but I can't remember a woman being involved if you had seen photographs which either confirmed or suggested that there might have been an intimate relationship
00:43:34 relationship would you have done anything about it I might have warned him verbally warned him verbally what not not to get involved with a another woman not to get involved at all or to keep it
00:43:46 at all or to keep it casual I think the advice would have been not to get involved at all because I know he was a married man with two
00:43:57 children uh [Music]
00:43:59 [Music] there's a the second woman that Mr Lambert um had a sexual relationship was a woman we call Jackie with whom he had a
00:44:11 a child you have told us in your witness statement that there came a time when Mr Lambert did approach you to tell you uh
00:44:28 Lambert did approach you to tell you uh that he might have made a married woman woman
00:44:35 pregnant can you help us is that is my understanding right that you got that information from Mr Lambert or did it come to you from another
00:44:48 come to you from another source I believe it came from Mr Lambert though I know the suggestion that it came from somebody else but I can't I thought I had clear memories of Mr Lambert telling me this thing but I'm now I'm I'm I'm
00:45:04 doubtful was it a piece of news that would have stuck in your mind you would think so and why are you doubtful well I know that somebody else
00:45:17 doubtful well I know that somebody else said that they told me and it wasn't Bob Lambert but I can't remember that without breaching any restriction order and referring to the cipher list if you need to who was
00:45:36 that oh
00:45:41 damn I think I can
00:46:10 [Music]
00:46:17 it's M follow
00:46:49 thank you I've been I'm told that you've written something down I have yeah thank you my handwriting is apping though some they can't I'm surprised not surprised Mike
00:46:59 Mike Barber was that the name
00:47:04 name yeah can can I come back to the recollection that you told us about in your witness
00:47:18 your witness statement your recollection that it was Lambert yes that told you what is your recollection of where that happened it was one of our secret houses can you recall when it was after a
00:47:35 meeting and I can't remember the date but it was a weekday just ordinary ordinary meeting of STDs
00:47:47 officers when Lambert spoke to you who was
00:47:49 was present I think it was just the two of us and he was telling you about sexual activity in his undercover identity
00:48:05 identity yes connected to his deployment
00:48:11 yes can you recall the terms in which he spoke to
00:48:19 you he just said that he had a married woman got pregnant by
00:48:28 him later he was to tell me that there was another man that claimed responsibility for the paternity and so he he was such a good worker such a good producer of intelligence put us in a very difficult
00:48:42 position when he first spoke to
00:48:51 you was he clearly of the view that the child was
00:48:57 child was his he didn't know at that time are you sure about that
00:49:06 no you've told us in your witness statement uh that you were satisfied that it wasn't clear that he was the father or or words to that yeah
00:49:21 father or or words to that yeah effect to what extent did you explore that subject with him I just asked him about it
00:49:32 him I just asked him about it was she married wasn't with anybody else he said there was another man involved as
00:49:33 as well this is Father remember a conversation between two of us they just about finishing a meeting so I'm not be 100 100%
00:49:49 accurate did you advise Mr Lambert to take any course of action other than to be careful and to to get if you can get out of this relationship if you can if you
00:50:03 relationship if you can if you can I had no good I thought the damage had already been done to the woman and I could see no way out from
00:50:17 that so you were contemplating the possibility that Mr Lambert might continue with the
00:50:23 relationship I don't know whether I actually thought that
00:50:32 would your advice have been any different if Lambert had been unequivocal on the question of
00:50:43 paternity well he was unequally he didn't know he was the
00:50:54 father sorry what I mean is that if he was certain that he was would your advice have been any different I don't know too long after the
00:51:11 event probably be now I beg your pardon things might have been probably different now different standards I don't know but back
00:51:18 then it
00:51:24 happened you tell us in your witness statement that you spoke to either di
00:51:36 statement that you spoke to either di Barber or di Docker about it at the time that Jackie fell pregnant di Barber was your second in command is it likely therefore that this conversation was with di Barber it's possible yes and probably more than that it's
00:51:55 probable can you recall whether di Barber already knew about it or not
00:52:06 not this I don't know but the upshot of your conversation was that you decided to take no action short of making a few inquiries yes that was it what see how things took panned out what
00:52:24 panned out what inquiries wanted to know who she was we didn't know that at the time and who was she without without using her real name I can't remember the name now but what we've done this afternoon yes I can
00:52:46 but was it the woman that we are calling Jackie I think so I'm not certain of
00:53:03 this can you Rec call anything of the circumstances of the conversation that you had with Detective inspector barara not really not now enough can you recall any of the
00:53:15 content it's a general talk between the two of us who I was in charge and he was number two and he had probably had a better contact with the with the members of the squad than I did but uh he was worth listening to he was an intelligent man
00:53:34 was any written record made of the conversation that you'd had with Detective
00:53:38 Detective inspector sorry not detective inspector with Sergeant Lambert no it wasn't why
00:53:49 not didn't seem necessary at the time was any record made of the conversation that you'd had with Detective inspector [Music]
00:53:57 [Music] Barber
00:54:00 Barber no again why not it didn't seem minds of the in is I beg your pardon it didn't seem to be
00:54:15 necessary was it because you didn't want to make it official
00:54:19 official probably and does that amount to accepting that your decision to do nothing was sweeping under the carpet I don't think it was we was
00:54:30 carpet I don't think it was we was sweeping anything under the carpet he was just trying to do use this incident is unfortunate to the best of our
00:54:43 ability so would it be more accurate to say uh that you didn't think it was important enough to make an official record we didn't think it was necessary at that stage if we got more details we
00:54:56 at that stage if we got more details we would have done some more could you help me
00:54:57 me understand better why it wasn't necessary at that time it seemed to be uncertain as whether it was his
00:55:15 child and the Affairs were clearly happening which I didn't was unaware of but you were aware as a minimum
00:55:26 of but you were aware as a minimum weren't you that Mr Lambert had had sex with a member of the public in his undercover identity undercover identity yes I did I did know
00:55:37 did know that and you were making no record of that
00:55:39 that no and you were doing nothing about it I thought I was just letting time go by so we'd find out some more but we
00:55:56 by so we'd find out some more but we didn't was that because you regarded sexual activity between undercover officers and members of the public as inevitable or was it for some other reason I think I thought it was
00:56:08 reason I think I thought it was inevitable in the situation we put the men
00:56:17 in did you tell anyone in your chain of command about this news I have a memory of speaking to ra Tucker
00:56:30 can you recall when you spoke to him not really it would have been a few days later can you recall where you spoke to him it have probably been in New
00:56:42 him it have probably been in New Scotland Yard can you recall the gist of what you said to him well the gist was that one of my
00:56:54 him well the gist was that one of my undercover of officers had got got into trouble and what was Mr Tucker's reaction
00:57:02 I think what I've said before he he just believed it was inevitable it would happen
00:57:07 occasionally a metaphorical shrugging of the
00:57:08 the shoulders I suppose so did you tell anyone else no do you know whether Mr Tucker told anyone else that I don't
00:57:28 told anyone else that I don't know could we have up please the last question before the break 730
00:57:35 [Music]
00:57:48 311 this is a minute sheet uh It's associated with the SDS annual report for
00:57:54 for 1985 could we have expanded uh Chief superintendent gold buing uh contribution dated the 30th of January
00:58:08 1986 thank you the special demonstration squad has had another excellent year in its major role of gathering intelligence concerning possible threats to public
00:58:20 concerning possible threats to public order any problems that have Arisen have been effectively contained by Chief Inspector waight and his staff
00:58:32 his staff emphasis continues to be placed upon the welfare and morale of the officers in the
00:58:36 the field as I say this was in relation to the year
00:58:45 the year 1985 and that was the year uh in which uh the pregnancy occurred
00:58:57 occurred yes the reference any problems that have Arisen have been effect effectively contained by Chief Inspector
00:59:01 Inspector waight is that
00:59:05 alluding to Jackie's
00:59:16 pregnancy I don't know I've read it twice and I I'm still not certain whether he's got that from might it
00:59:28 be sorry might it be an illusion to your handling of the news that Lambert thought he might have made a woman pregnant I'm not sure that uh Lord Golding ever knew about
00:59:39 Golding ever knew about that is it possible that news spread as a result of you speaking to Mr Tucker it is
00:59:46 is possible thank you sir would now be a convenient time for our afternoon break certainly we'll um break for 15 minutes all right
01:00:24 let
01:19:23 e e
01:20:09 here we go Mr wait we were talking before the break about your Communications up the chain of command and I want to move down to move to down the chain of command did
01:20:24 move to down the chain of command did you say anything to your unit about what had
01:20:32 had happened no I can't remember doing that did you say anything in general terms about sexual relationships to your offices at the time not at that time as far as I can
01:20:40 remember why
01:20:49 not I don't know I suppose if you're going to want to keep a secret you keep it to
01:20:58 it to yourself and Bob Bob's doings were up to him but in terms of the fact you knew that one of your officers had been having sex with a member of the public is the reason why you said nothing to
01:21:09 is the reason why you said nothing to your officers because you thought that these sorts of things were going to happen I always accepted that it could happen
01:21:19 happen yes did you keep a closer eye on Mr Lambert after this no because I always believed him to be reliable and and
01:21:38 honest well you knew that there was a relationship with an activist does that mean that he was just left to manage that relationship himself no we were always there for him if he wanted us but I can't let coming to us with a problem
01:21:56 again but you were not concerning yourself with whether the relationship continued or not we'd advise it it should end but didn't follow up on
01:22:09 that Mr Lambert's deployment
01:22:18 continued you will presumably have seen from time to time photographs of Mr Lambert in the field from surveillance teams
01:22:31 yes and you will from time to time have seen him yourself during his deployment when you were acting as a cover officer yes and so would some of your managerial colleagues we took yes to
01:22:49 interns through either of those sources did you become aware as to whether or not the relationship was continuing we didn't see him and didn't notice him with a
01:23:03 notice him with a woman did you hear anything on the subject from any of your other undercover police officers no it was not a subject of conversation did you see any other
01:23:16 conversation did you see any other intelligence from other sources which suggested that Mr Lambert was still in a relationship with the woman we are calling Jackie
01:23:28 calling Jackie no no one ever saw anything El like that did you know that in fact Mr Lambert remained in contact with Jackie from when the relationship started sometime in the Autumn of
01:23:43 sometime in the Autumn of 1984 until beyond the end of your time with the
01:23:48 with the SDS I had no knowledge of that no did you ever ask him I can't remember now if I did or not it sound seems likely I would have asked him but I can't remember for
01:24:04 certain you said in your witness statement that there appeared to be no reason to take action in this
01:24:09 case did you follow it up in any
01:24:19 way I I'd obviously spoke to Bob Lam at some stage because he told me that another man had claimed paternity and he sort of said well that was the end of that then and we can carry on doing our jobs as we saw it
01:24:31 carry on doing our jobs as we saw it might you be confusing that with another man adopted the child no I didn't know about that I do now because I've been told but
01:24:42 that I do now because I've been told but not I KN when I was working I never knew
01:25:00 that why didn't you take any further action I couldn't really see what I could
01:25:05 could do having sex with a member of the public in one's undercover identity is misconduct isn't it I didn't know that at the time I never gave a
01:25:19 never gave a consideration it's discreditable conduct isn't it
01:25:27 oh I'm not good on discipline I don't know I'm not certain I should imagine so did you address your mind to that question at all
01:25:41 all no if you had thought about it at the time would you in 1985 have thought that a serving police officer having sex in an undercover
01:25:59 officer having sex in an undercover identity with a member of the public was conduct likely to bring discredit upon the Metropolitan Police Service I thought about that now but I never can never remember thinking about it at the time my question was if you had thought about it at the time what
01:26:12 had thought about it at the time what would your 1985 self have thought about
01:26:21 that I don't know I can't I can't imagine
01:26:33 it appears to have transpired to be the case uh that Mr Lambert was in fact the father of a child the child we know as
01:26:52 father of a child the child we know as TBS you knew that there was at least a possibility that Mr Lambert was the father of a child did you give any consideration to the consequences of a child being brought into the world deceived as to the real identity of his
01:27:10 identity of his father apart from my initial interview with Bob Lambert and one or two talks shortly after I had no nothing to do with this
01:27:15 inquiry and I don't I didn't know the child had been
01:27:23 born and I didn't know that Bob Lambert had claimed he would look after the child
01:27:33 would it be fair to say that you gave no thought to the impact of events either on the mother or on the
01:27:44 child I thought about it but seemed to be little I little I could do that would improve the situation would you agree that Mr Lambert was abusing his position as a police officer in forming a sexual relationship with
01:28:00 relationship with Jackie I don't think that was the case it was just a matter of mutual attraction I
01:28:08 think implicit in that answer that it doesn't matter that he was deceiving Jackie as to his real identity as a police officer have I understood you
01:28:20 police officer have I understood you correctly you understood me but I mean it also make covered his wife and thought if he made inquiries too soon we could were in his marriage because we didn't know that time where the child had been born and
01:28:32 time where the child had been born and that Bob Lambert was claiming paternity well we didn't know well if I've understood your evidence correctly there were never any further inquiries is that right not of sensible ones
01:28:46 right not of sensible ones no well what inquiries were there of any kind well between mik barar and I we might have spoken to Bob about it I think more more likely might Barber than
01:28:59 think more more likely might Barber than me because he was more more approachable more
01:29:03 more friendly and what did he ascertain I don't know did you talk to him about it not extensively
01:29:16 it not extensively no did he tell you is it a case of he he might have told you at the time and you can't remember or that is very
01:29:26 possible would you agree that the way that Mr Lambert behaved was immoral yes I
01:29:32 would shouldn't he have been
01:29:34 been withdrawn from his undercover deployment Bob Lambert was was probably the best SDS officer and he he product was of anybody else's and it would have
01:29:50 was of anybody else's and it would have been a valuable source of information we would have lost if we had have taken that rout
01:30:00 so uh are you saying his conduct was overlooked because of the perceived quality of his intelligence made the decision much more difficult I mean if he' been a bad officer we could have got rid of him easily but he was not it was a
01:30:14 easily but he was not it was a valuable member of the team could we be clear please are you saying that he'd behaved wrongly but a decision was taken that his product was so valuable it should be overlooked or
01:30:30 so valuable it should be overlooked or are you saying uh that what he did was not regarded as very serious not a problem something that would inevit that would inevitably happen from time to
01:30:43 would inevitably happen from time to time carry on really regarded it quite seriously birth of a child is always important particularly if it's not
01:30:51 wanted but not so serious as to withdraw him
01:30:57 it's in the time span that I was aware of
01:30:58 of this she hadn't been born I didn't you know I've learned more about this since I've been on this inquiry than I ever did when I was
01:31:13 inquiry than I ever did when I was working but TBS had been born before you finished your posting I didn't know
01:31:21 that shouldn't Mr Lambert also have been disciplined
01:31:29 I didn't think so at the time and I'm not sure it would have solved any problems if we have disciplined him
01:31:36 then why do you say
01:31:41 that I don't see it does anybody any
01:31:51 good you should have been investigated for misconduct in public office shouldn't he
01:32:00 I suppose now yes he would be but at the time I think we were rather LAX in that way cuz on your evidence you told him not to get
01:32:12 evidence you told him not to get involved in sexual relationships oh yes and yet he had yes but that goes for many people in in police force doesn't it and had he been withdrawn
01:32:27 it and had he been withdrawn he could not have gone on to deceive either Belinda Harvey or the woman we are calling RLC could
01:32:34 RLC could he I don't know about either of these two women well we've heard evidence that he did go on to deceive two more women one of them over a protracted period of
01:32:54 one of them over a protracted period of time I don't know this wouldn't it have been clear to you at the time that if you have an officer who's having sex with a member of the public one reason to withdraw him is to stop him doing it
01:33:06 to withdraw him is to stop him doing it again I didn't know he was I thought he taken my advice and was it was not involving sexual relationship with the
01:33:23 woman could we have a look at 74 8881 this is your witness
01:33:30 statement page5 paragraph
01:33:43 411 I am referred to an extract from an eight monthly report on DS Lambert dated the 29th of May 1985 at this stage Jackie is pregnant with TBS and written by you his common sense enthusiasm have
01:33:57 by you his common sense enthusiasm have made it possible for him to work with a minimum of supervision and he has obtained excellent results I do not consider that Robert Lambert being subject to minimum supervision contributed to him having a sexual
01:34:11 contributed to him having a sexual relationship whilst undercover it did not appear necessary for us to exert extra controls over Bob Lambert at the time short of removing him from the squad no extra supervisory control would
01:34:28 squad no extra supervisory control would have prevented him having a relationship given how undercover officers worked first of all common sense how can you describe Bob Lambert having sex with a member of the public in his undercover
01:34:43 in his undercover identity and on your evidence possibly getting her pregnant being Common
01:34:52 Sense people have a fears who got common sense um I can't I didn't know these things I thought he'd taken our advice and cut
01:35:05 thought he'd taken our advice and cut off his sexual relationships I had no concept of him having other Affairs Bob Lambert knew about the pregnancy at the start of early in
01:35:17 pregnancy at the start of early in 1985 so it would appear it's likely you knew about the pregnancy by May how could you write Common Sense about a man who had behaved like that he submitt work and the product of
01:35:36 that he submitt work and the product of his his in intelligence was great he was he got
01:35:48 he got recommendation for his work on the SDS and uh he just seemed to me a sensible Common Sense man who unfortunately had an [Music]
01:35:52 [Music] incident and the statement that short of removing him from the squad no extra supervisory control would have prevented him having a
01:36:05 him having a relationship right that that might very well be right but isn't that all the more reason to have removed
01:36:12 him I didn't see what what it would achieve it would be
01:36:16 useful we would lose a good source of
01:36:23 intelligence I didn't see what the job was going to gain from it there appears in in your answers Mr waight to be a blind
01:36:36 waight to be a blind spot for the impact that Bob Lambert's Behavior had on Jackie and on Mrs
01:37:00 Lambert do you accept that in the evidence you've given about the various decisions you took that you simply did not give any sufficient thought to the women involved in these events I must confess that I do regret
01:37:14 events I must confess that I do regret not giving more support to certainly to Jackie his wife who I did
01:37:23 know and it's it's an unfortunate thing but
01:37:27 but I did not associate the man with what you've been telling me this
01:37:37 afternoon in modern parlance it might be said that you had a misogynistic mindset would you accept that that could be true I don't believe it is true because well I've been married for 60 years I can't see I can be that misog
01:37:51 be that misog stick I mean it in the sense that you weren't considering the the autonomy the rights and the interests of the deceived woman and of Bob Lambert's
01:38:10 wife G given how things are nowadays I do accept that I did not give sufficient thought to the the women involved and to the importance of their being able to give informed consent about the sexual activity they
01:38:25 consent about the sexual activity they were G getting involved in yes I accept I accept
01:38:30 I accept that and that this wasn't simply an ordinary
01:38:32 ordinary Affair it was a sexual liazon between a serving police officer in his undercover identity and a member of the public and that is different isn't
01:38:44 that is different isn't it I didn't see that at the time do you accept it now I think I accept it better than it now yes things have changed was any
01:38:56 was any consideration given to informing the deceived woman Jackie who Bob Lambert really was
01:39:09 was no why not that revealed the workings of the SDS and we were anxious to keep that secret was any consideration given to
01:39:22 secret was any consideration given to the best interests of the child that is to say the person we are calling TBS I regret to say no we didn't any consideration given
01:39:35 consideration given to Financial social or emotional consequences I'm afraid not no was any consideration given to the Metropolitan Police service's responsibility towards Jackie and
01:39:52 responsibility towards Jackie and TBS well we thought the job put Bob in a position
01:39:54 position that he did what he did but I don't think beyond that the police had any effect on on the incident well in terms of the fact that it was the MPS which put him in that
01:40:11 it was the MPS which put him in that position and he was acting in the course of his duties yes didn't that give rise to responsibilities to them both not least uh in relation to the financial cost of bringing up
01:40:22 cost of bringing up TBS I don't think it occurred to me at the time
01:40:24 the time were you aware that Mr Lambert was paying some form of Maintenance to
01:40:36 paying some form of Maintenance to Jackie no I did not know that were there any regular payments um that he was making which might have been those maintenance payments that you were aware of I wasn't aware of any maintenance payments at that
01:40:49 payments at that time were you ever asked by the Metropolitan Police Service before you were first interviewed by operation
01:41:00 interviewed by operation Hearn whether Bob Lambert had fathered a child under cover I was never ask as that no going to read uh to you another a PO part of the apologies made by the
01:41:15 part of the apologies made by the Metropolitan uh Police Service uh in the course of this inquiry it reads the MPS recognizes the seriousness of these failings much of the evidence of misconduct and all the SDS as manager evidence will be
01:41:34 SDS as manager evidence will be considered in T2 P2 and in due course in module 2B hearings nonetheless the MPS can say at this stage that the SDS should have been the subject of robust oversight and intervention by senior managers so that professional standards
01:41:52 managers so that professional standards and conduct were reviewed and maintained throughout its duration poor standards and misconduct should have been identified and dealt with swiftly before they became embedded into the culture of the unit uos whose
01:42:07 into the culture of the unit uos whose conduct fell below acceptable standards should have been identified removed from the field and disciplined where
01:42:22 necessary do you now agree with that I would agree with that essentially yes
01:42:28 so would that be a convenient moment at which to finish for the day yes um I think um you've done remark remarkably well if I may say so would you mind resuming tomorrow at 10: and we will
01:42:42 resuming tomorrow at 10: and we will have I believe a no longer a day than we've had
01:42:45 today are you content to do
01:42:53 that sorry was is my voice not being picked
01:43:03 picked up yes oh you're talking to Atty white yes I'm prepared to be 10 yes sorry I thought you were speak not not at all thank you then we'll resume at 10 tomorrow and as I say all being well your day tomorrow will be slightly
01:43:16 your day tomorrow will be slightly shorter than today but um not that much shorter thank
01:43:22 you e