DCI Tony Waite's testimony covering his recruitment of Stefan Scott despite negative appraisals, recruitment of Bob Lambert without visiting his wife, acceptance of male officers having sexual relationships with activists, use of deceased children's identities, reporting on GLC police monitoring groups despite guidance against it, infiltration of CND even when assessed as having 'no effective ring of subversives', reporting on Friends of Blair Peach, Lambeth Women for Peace, and trade union activities including miners' strike support.
00:05:58 e e
00:06:35 good morning everybody today's proceedings are going to be live streamed the live stream will be subject to a 15minute delay as it will be for all future managers the reason is because the possibility of there being a
00:06:47 because the possibility of there being a an an unacceptable disclosure um is more likely to occur with managers and it may take a little longer to deal with uh
00:06:58 take a little longer to deal with uh those with electronic devices they use them for reporting what they have heard in the proceedings but only after 15 minutes of elapsed since the event that
00:07:09 minutes of elapsed since the event that they describing such devices may not be used for recording or photography yes good morning I'm Usher and I'm going to take you through the affirmation can you hear me
00:07:26 affirmation can you hear me okay yes I can thank you if you could re repeat after me please I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall
00:07:37 shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank
00:08:01 you thank you Mr thank you sir uh Mr wait could you tell us your full name please Anthony Russell wait are the contents uh of your two witness statements to the inquiry true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief to the best of my knowledge
00:08:18 and belief to the best of my knowledge and belief they are uh you tell us that you uh were working on cquad in the late
00:08:30 cquad in the late 1960s and that before you joined the SDS there was a time when you spent a year working for A8 when you were working for A8 did you have any understanding that
00:08:45 A8 did you have any understanding that some of the intelligence that was coming your way had come from the
00:08:58 SDS no I don't think I did you went on as we know to be the DCI of the s SS and then the head of
00:09:09 of the s SS and then the head of cquad in the light of your experience in the chain of command for the SDS and your time working for A8 are you now able to assist the inquiry with any
00:09:21 inquiry with any evaluation of how useful SDS intelligence was to
00:09:29 A8 it was very useful to A8 could you expand upon that please it the information we received from the
00:09:38 from the SDS would would cover number of police officers used on a
00:09:45 a demonstration so you were not
00:09:57 overmanned or under policed H and we know that A8 became to20
00:10:00 to20 was the position the same for
00:10:04 to20 that I don't
00:10:16 know you recruited uh undercover police officers I want to ask you about the recruitment of Stefan Scott you've told us in your witness statement that you did not check Mr
00:10:29 statement that you did not check Mr Scott's uh files but relied upon the fact that he had been positively
00:10:42 fact that he had been positively vetted I want to call up please at his 1985 uh appraisal it's at 746
00:10:58 [Music] 943 you see that's the Mr Scot's personal file if we could go to page 10
00:11:18 please this is a part of an annual report um what I'm interested in I want to direct your attention to please Mr weit is the other comment section the bottom quarter of the page thank you uh
00:11:30 page thank you uh you will see that that was uh in the
00:11:41 you will see that that was uh in the name of detective inspector gray who had known Scott for 9 months and it signed the 11th of April 19 85 it says DC Scott was posted to Heathrow Airport in March
00:11:56 Heathrow Airport in March 1984 since when he has served in the domestics
00:12:00 domestics terminal his attitude and performance whilst here have not been good his record of work has been well below
00:12:19 record of work has been well below average and whilst return of reports is not the only Criterion of diligence he has not shown any involvement in Practical
00:12:26 Practical situations 6 months ago I had cause to advise him about his attitude and performance when he was obvious disinclined to work following a decision to postpone his attendance on a course at that time he
00:12:41 attendance on a course at that time he made it plain to me that he did not like the posting his second to Heath row and thought he had been unfairly treated in relation to Squad postings nothing since has given me the belief that he has
00:12:53 has given me the belief that he has changed his views he is shortly to be posted to C Squad where he will have the opportunity to demonstrate his ability which has not been shown here he
00:13:06 which has not been shown here he recently sat the promotion examination
00:13:16 unsuccessfully I'm sure you would agree with me that the SDS was an elite unit wasn't
00:13:21 wasn't it we we considered ourselves so yes uh and this is uh not a report uh of someone of the caliber needed for the SDS is
00:13:33 needed for the SDS is it the experience that of di gr with
00:13:45 it the experience that of di gr with Stefan was different to mine and I I was one of his senior officers in SE Squad very he worked well and was very competent and got on with people did you know uh when you recruited Scott uh that
00:14:01 know uh when you recruited Scott uh that detective inspector gray held a negative view of
00:14:03 view of him I don't remember knowing that no it's important isn't it that SDS officers could be trusted to work uh
00:14:15 officers could be trusted to work uh with very little supervision in their undercover roles yes that's so aren't the traits here as described by di
00:14:27 by di gray uh danger signs in terms of
00:14:39 gray uh danger signs in terms of selecting somebody to work with little supervision di gr and I probably disagree about Stephan
00:14:46 Scott it's the reality that uh you should uh have checked the documents I don't think we did that as a matter of
00:15:02 matter of course if you had checked the documents would this report have changed your mind I really don't know at this
00:15:13 stage you recruited uh Bob Lambert uh you tell us in your witness
00:15:35 Lambert uh you tell us in your witness statement that before recruiting him you did not visit uh his home and meet with Mrs Lambert that's right isn't it yes uh why didn't you go to see uh Mr Lambert's domestic setting I had no reason
00:15:47 to would a reason to have gone have been to speak to uh Mrs Lambert to let her know what she would be letting herself in for if her husband uh joined the
00:16:02 in for if her husband uh joined the SDS no it wasn't normal practice for us to go and visit the
00:16:13 families we've had a a variety of evidence on that topic Mr way many did go and
00:16:15 go and visit uh wives beforehand and I want to explore with you some of the reasons why that might have been
00:16:28 that might have been useful do you think there would have been been
00:16:30 been been utility uh in speaking directly to Mrs Lambert to explain to her that the job would involve considerable time away from
00:16:42 from home except that it would would have been a good thing to have done but we didn't would you accept that talking to her about all the ramifications of her
00:16:57 her about all the ramifications of her husband adopting a radically different physical appearance would have on their social and domestic life no we didn't would that have been a
00:17:09 life no we didn't would that have been a good idea I think it probably would have been
00:17:10 been yes would it have been a good idea to discuss with her some of the security measures that might have to be taken to ensure a sterile Corridor uh between Mr
00:17:31 ensure a sterile Corridor uh between Mr Lambert's home life and his professional life as an undercover police officer no I don't think it would do you think it would have been a good idea uh to raise
00:17:44 would have been a good idea uh to raise with uh Mrs Lambert uh the fact uh that her husband would be masquerading as a single man in a mixed environment in which there was a possibility of sexual relationships with hindsight it probably
00:17:57 relationships with hindsight it probably would have been relevant but at the time we didn't see it that way why didn't you see it that
00:18:10 why didn't you see it that way we didn't do it with do visits to the family with other officers it me mentors in getting involved in a tremendous much more work and and of course talking about a secret organization which we we kept very
00:18:22 organization which we we kept very secret to ourselves and even people in the bran didn't know about
00:18:34 the bran didn't know about SDS how much consideration did you give to Mrs Lambert at the recruitment stage very little I'm afraid to
00:18:42 say she would also have been someone who could have raised the alarm if uh the officer was suffering on the welfare front would you agree yes I would agree with that
00:19:03 yeah can I move now to the subject of the recruitment of female uh under uh cover uh police officers you told operation H that you recall and I'm quoting now recall
00:19:16 recall and I'm quoting now recall several girls wanting to join and they would have to acknowledge that the subject of sex would potentially be a problem for
00:19:27 problem for them what did you have in mind when you said that to oper operation
00:19:38 Hearn um I don't really know uh they clearly were vulnerable to sexual advances from men and from women and we did our best in those days to protect our our police staff as far
00:19:52 to protect our our police staff as far as we could I thought it they were more vulnerable than a male officer so the concern was unwanted sexual advances
00:20:09 yes uh you've not expressed in your witness statement a similar concern about uh male uh
00:20:11 male uh officers uh was that because you first
00:20:22 officers uh was that because you first of all were not concerned about unwanted sexual advances being made to male undercover police officers we thought it was more most unlikely
00:20:29 unlikely and secondly uh because uh if a male undercover officer was to get involved
00:20:45 undercover officer was to get involved sexually with a member of the public in their undercover identity that was something you regarded as a a possibility uh which had to be accepted yes I think so
00:21:00 yes can I move uh now to the question of deceased uh children's identities um you've explained to us
00:21:15 identities um you've explained to us that there was a memorandum from Mike Ferguson explaining how to create a undercover Persona can you help us in Broad terms with what your involvement in that process
00:21:28 process was I had very little to do with it was a practice that was common before my time in SDS and it worked successfully and so we carried on with
00:21:49 it were you involved in scrutinizing the undercover legends that the officers came up with we did look at them yes and did you test the officers to see how robust they were yes you tell us in your statement that
00:22:04 yes you tell us in your statement that instructions were given about conducting a short visit to the area where the child in question had been growing up could you help us with what sort of
00:22:21 could you help us with what sort of instruction was given to an officer who was going to visit the area where the child had been growing up not really
00:22:32 child had been growing up not really I very guess it they were just advised to go and look and learn the area so they could answer questions about it was there any instruction to find out about
00:22:42 about the family uh of uh the deceased child
00:22:53 the family uh of uh the deceased child to work out whether or not they would be easily uh
00:22:55 easily uh findable not to my knowledge no were there any instructions given about the family of the deceased child not to my
00:23:12 family of the deceased child not to my knowledge uh were any checks made to see whether or not they were still alive I believe so by by the various officers who were exploring the this
00:23:26 Avenue could you answer this next question just with a simple yes or no please were undercover police officers expected to apply for passports or driving
00:23:39 passports or driving licenses themselves in their undercover
00:23:45 identities
00:23:56 no did you ever address your mind to whether adopting a deceased child's identity was lawful
00:24:02 I don't believe I did and why was that I think I just following common practice did you seek any reassurance
00:24:19 practice did you seek any reassurance from your managers about the practice no it has accepted did you have any
00:24:28 qualms I don't think I did no I'm going to read for you now an apology that has been made by the present commissioner on the subject of the use of deceased children's
00:24:39 children's identities the question I'm going to have for you is whether you now align yourself with that apology the apology reads the MPS
00:24:56 apology the apology reads the MPS accepts that the managers of the SDS failed to recognize the hurt distress and anger that the use of deceased children's identities would cause the families of the children and
00:25:11 cause the families of the children and the public concern that would result if the practice had been revealed it apologizes
00:25:22 revealed it apologizes unreservedly to the families for this it also wishes to acknowledge that their distress will have been compounded by the Revelation that some SDS officers
00:25:36 the Revelation that some SDS officers behaved indefensibly while using their children's names as acknowledged elsewhere in this opening statement I would accept that as a state now
00:25:53 a state now is a few questions now about your chain of command you say in your witness statement that you reported to the chief superintendent of cquad and the security
00:26:05 cquad and the security service the inquirer's understanding of the position is that the unit was forly
00:26:19 the position is that the unit was forly in the es Squad chain of command at the time you joined although it later transferred to cquad can I ask you about the period when you first joined the SDS
00:26:33 when you first joined the SDS in what sense in that era did you report to the chief superintendent of C
00:26:42 Squad you you'd approach him and have a meeting whenever you thought was
00:26:50 appropriate were you given instructions directions or orders by him yes we could be I can't remember I can't Beall it now but I think we
00:27:08 did and what uh how did that compare with the relationship with the chief superintendent of esquad it didn't
00:27:17 change is the reason for that because C Squad had the operational responsibility uh for Intelligence on the far left and the far right probably
00:27:33 and in what sense did you report to the security
00:27:38 security service virtually everything we did we reported to the the security service what I'd like to establish is are you using that in the sense of SDS intelligence reports were sent to the
00:27:51 intelligence reports were sent to the security service or are you using the word report uh to indicate any for Al
00:28:02 word report uh to indicate any for Al accountability or line management by the security
00:28:08 security service no it was P purely on on product of the offices in in the field but a
00:28:20 of the offices in in the field but a very close working relationship a very close working relationship yes and to what extent did the security services intelligence requirements influence SDS targeting quite
00:28:29 quite [Music]
00:28:32 [Music] largely and to what extent did the security services view as to whether or not a group or a person with
00:28:48 not a group or a person with subversive influence the MPS view on the same
00:28:53 same question we wouldn't bear notes and but usually there's an agreement without giving any detail can you recall any situation in which the Metropolitan
00:29:13 situation in which the Metropolitan police's view was that a group was not subversive when the security service thought that it was no I don't ever call such a
00:29:30 thing can I I now move to the question of tasking whilst a UC was deployed uh you've explained in your witness statement that the undercover officers were self-motivated and often identified
00:29:46 self-motivated and often identified where they should be working uh and that although you tasked officers they were largely left to carry out their tasking
00:29:57 largely left to carry out their tasking as they saw fit what I'd like to explore can you help helpers with in practice the extent to which officers were self-
00:30:17 tasking you would put an officer into an area which whichever organizations you were interested in and then he would develop that because he would get a greater knowledge of the organization than you
00:30:22 than you had and he would probably change the targets uh when you were meeting your
00:30:33 targets uh when you were meeting your uos in the safe house and discussing the course of their deployment were you telling them what to do were they simply
00:30:45 do were they simply reporting what they were doing or was there a
00:30:49 there a dialogue it would depend on the position they have within an organization how we would treat
00:31:00 organization how we would treat them so can I take it at different time might have been any one of those three things happening yes I think
00:31:10 so I want to move now to the question of police
00:31:20 police accountability going to call up a 1983 special Branch report it's 748
00:31:22 748 355 tab B4 sir
00:31:41 you will see Mr wait that this is a report entitled political extremism and the campaign for police accountability within the Metropolitan Police uh District January
00:31:52 Metropolitan Police uh District January 1983 can we go to page five first of all please paragraph 1.1 this is the introduction on the 28th of May 1981 only some 3 weeks after its
00:32:07 1981 only some 3 weeks after its formation the labor controlled greater London Council established a police committee and in so doing launched a campaign for police accountability throughout the Metropolitan Police
00:32:22 throughout the Metropolitan Police District in the 20 months since then that campaign has seen the police committee persistently posturing as the
00:32:34 committee persistently posturing as the lawful police Authority for the GLC area has been marked by the establishment of at least seven related burough police committees and some 11 unofficial but financially linked police monitoring
00:32:46 financially linked police monitoring groups and has culminated to date in the formulation of Demands which are an undisguised attempt to secure quote ultimate control of the Metropolitan Police
00:33:00 Police other characteristics of the campaign have included the almost Reckless
00:33:12 have included the almost Reckless dispersement of public money the blatant encouragement of anti- police feelings and perhaps most significantly of all the advancement of known political extremists do you recognize the concerns set out in that
00:33:25 set out in that paragraph frankly no I have no will recall us being involved in the police committees and we didn't didn't
00:33:36 committees and we didn't didn't investigate them as far as I can remember
00:33:45 remember now do you recall whether there was a sense within the Metropolitan Police Service at this time that the GLC were trying to assert control over the Metropolitan Police I don't think I
00:34:03 the Metropolitan Police I don't think I was no do you recall a sense uh that the GLC a sense of concern that the GLC was funding both official and unofficial police monitoring
00:34:15 unofficial police monitoring groups I don't think I was aware I cannot remember
00:34:22 now Ken Livingston was a very prominent political figure in London at the material time wasn't he yes are you sure that there wasn't talk and
00:34:35 wasn't talk and concern about how he was behaving towards the police I don't think within the SDS we did not we weren't investigating them and have no knowledge of it that's not quite my question Mr wait was the
00:34:52 not quite my question Mr wait was the atmosphere at the time within the met one of concern about how the GLC was approaching the question of police
00:35:01 police accountability I suppose we all did at the at the time not it Just solely SDS I mean SDS was not involved with the police
00:35:12 police committees can we go now to page seven
00:35:27 please and the last sentence as will be shown later however it's current campaign to redress the situation has no obvious parallel in the history of the movement for police accountability and appears to be nothing less than a carefully orchestrated
00:35:42 less than a carefully orchestrated attempt to secure political control of the Metropolitan Police was that sentiment uh one uh which was uh current within the
00:35:55 which was uh current within the Metropolitan Police as a whole at this time I can't remember remember
00:36:04 now I think it probably was but I don't know and I can't think we I got the information from if we could go back to page five please now and paragraph
00:36:20 1.2 says from the outset this branch has attempted to follow the campaign in detail and in so doing has collected a mass of information about the
00:36:36 mass of information about the personalities and groups involved this report is an attempt to analyze and interpret that
00:36:47 interpret that information were you aware that special Branch uh had an interest in following the campaign in detail I can't remember that now do you have any reason to doubt the truth of that ass
00:37:12 no were you aware that special Branch was in fact collecting information about the personalities and groups involved I don't think I
00:37:16 was can we now go to page 14
00:37:31 please paragraph 2.13 Under The Heading extremist influence in the
00:37:36 the GLC of the 50 labor counselors elected to the GLC in May 1981 C appendix a 11 can be identified
00:37:50 1981 C appendix a 11 can be identified as having come to the previous attention of this branch in an extremist context can Livingston the labor leader is a self-proclaimed Marxist John M Donald Valerie Wise and Paul Moore are known
00:38:05 Valerie Wise and Paul Moore are known trotskyists Tony Hart privacy privacy and Andrew McIntosh have passed associations with the Communist Party of
00:38:17 associations with the Communist Party of Great Britain whilst Paul boang and Dave Wetzel have close connections with communist influenced organizations in addition Steve bundred and John branagan are assessed as Irish Republican simp sympathizers it should
00:38:31 Republican simp sympathizers it should also be noted that the official advisor to the labor councilors on the GLC is Ted Knight who has extremely close and ominous links with the trotskyist workers
00:38:42 workers revolutionary
00:38:55 revolutionary party were you aware that special Branch had an interest in extremist influence within the greater London Council I don't believe
00:39:09 did do you uh contest in any way the fact that extremist influence was one of the things uh that special Branch
00:39:18 tracked I'm not sure it Fallin our terms of Engagement that we looked at local government we'll be looking at um the parameters in a little while but at this moment I'm asking you about the factual
00:39:34 moment I'm asking you about the factual position was association with trotsky's groups the Communist Party of Great Britain the workers revolutionary party something that special Branch was interested in I don't know that isn't the reality
00:39:54 in I don't know that isn't the reality that special Branch did collect a lot of information about all of those parts of the political Spectrum what you have shown me today it looks as if they were but I don't know who did well having served in C Squad in the late 1960s surely you must have been aware
00:40:09 1960s surely you must have been aware that these were the sorts of groups that were of
00:40:14 were of Interest I think we all knew about the trotskyist influence upon the labor party and we're aware but mainly from the from the Press I don't can't
00:40:26 the from the Press I don't can't remember us doing inquiries into them in local government can we go further down the page to the next paragraph please
00:40:38 2.14 on examination of the names of the labor members of the police committee reveals that six of them boang bundred branagan Hart McIntosh and more have
00:40:57 branagan Hart McIntosh and more have been me have been mentioned above and that in fact only pit has no known extremist
00:40:59 extremist connections so it appears to be the position uh that the special Branch uh was reporting here the fact that all but one of the
00:41:12 one of the GLC labor members of the police committee had extremist connections doesn't
00:41:23 it I'm soorry I don't know what the question
00:41:24 question is it it's to the effect uh that you can see from the page that this sort of information has been recorded hasn't
00:41:39 recorded hasn't it I don't know who by and I can't remember doing it myself and were these people of interest to the Metropolitan Police Service firstly because uh they had extremist
00:41:59 connections I don't think I can answer that for for how he thought at the time and secondly uh because they were members of a police committee that was perceived to be hostile to the Metropolitan
00:42:12 Police
00:42:15 yes could we go to page 27 now
00:42:31 please um paragraph 4.1 this is a part about unofficial accountability groups in tandem with its attempts to set up burough police committees which was dealt with in part three of this report the GLC police committee has
00:42:44 report the GLC police committee has sought other ways to monitor police activity and further its accountability campaign its principal effort in this context has involved encouraging the
00:42:59 context has involved encouraging the growth of a series of totally unofficial and independent bodies whose sole function would be to watch and report on the work of the Metropolitan uh police and if we go to
00:43:22 4.3 says the reason for their apparent popularity are not far to seek the prospect of a sizable Grant Allied to to a vague brief and little obvious control from the GLC police
00:43:35 GLC police committee were you familiar uh with um unofficial accountability groups of the kind referred to here I can't remember them
00:43:51 here I can't remember them now and is it right that they were of interest to special Branch I should imagine they would have been but I can't I have no factual
00:44:02 been but I can't I have no factual memory of of this at all that's quite understandable I'm going to to help perhaps uh to jog your memory could we go next to page [Music]
00:44:23 33 uh and this is a part of the report which is about one of those groups it's about the nuum monitoring uh project and if we could have the text
00:44:34 uh project and if we could have the text at the top of the page plus uh paragraph uh 419 and 420 first of all
00:44:43 please first of all it records at the top of the right of the page that this group had the benefit of a GLC Grant of
00:44:58 11,985 Records the group's aims of the monitoring of racial attacks in newm and the police response as well as campaigning for police accountability there says it is run essentially by
00:45:09 there says it is run essentially by unmeshed Desai and privacy desire a member of the swp until September 1981 when he was expelled for over violent stewarding of an anti-nazi League rally in leads has of late been
00:45:28 League rally in leads has of late been away from the newm scene due to illness the new year should see back in Action however privacy has no known specific political allegiance so sources describe her as a middle class Marxist if we could go now to the next
00:45:48 paragraph it is significant that the recent campaign against police over the arrests of eight local Asian yous the newm 8 defense committee has had Direct involvement by nmp leaflets protesting their innocence and
00:46:25 others
01:11:24 e e
01:12:23 thank you the order that I read out stands um please don't worry unduly about this but uh we have to try to protect uh restriction orders that have been made in respect of all sorts of
01:12:39 been made in respect of all sorts of things and these slips occur with almost every significant witness so please don't
01:12:43 don't worry yes thank you sir could we have back up
01:12:51 back up 14823 thank you I'd read to you this report on an individual who was a full-time worker uh at the n mp uh was he of interest to special Branch for that
01:13:04 Branch for that reason I can't remember at this stage it's too long ago uh but would that make sense to you now yes it would was there ever any
01:13:22 would was there ever any objection criticism or push back uh for uh SDS reporting about the nuum monitoring project not that I can
01:13:42 remember can we take that document down now please and can we go uh to se go back to 748
01:13:48 355 this is back to the 1983 report
01:13:56 could we have page 46
01:14:01 please Roman numeral
01:14:13 10 this is from the summary of conclusion section of the report the GLC police committee has financed several established groups to monitor particular aspects of police work some of these groups are notoriously anti- police the
01:14:28 groups are notoriously anti- police the troops movement and the National Council for civil liberties are both
01:14:44 included is uh there being notoriously anti- police at least one reason why they were of interest to special
01:14:46 special Branch I don't believe
01:14:55 so we've seen uh this report does say that intelligence was collected about them
01:15:06 intelligence was collected about them and it's right isn't it that the SDS did Target the troops out movement yes we did so in respect of Tom as I shall call them is it right uh that the anti-
01:15:25 them is it right uh that the anti- police attitude was at least part of why that group was targeted it could have
01:15:32 been could we now go to page
01:15:38 [Music]
01:15:54 81 uh this is um a section about one of the police accountability groups socalled the National Council for civil civil
01:16:02 civil liberties and it gives uh the London burough the group's address and details of the secretary uh and other people
01:16:16 of the secretary uh and other people they include Harriet Harmon who was then a member of Parliament and uh Paul
01:16:34 a member of Parliament and uh Paul bang uh was special Branch interested in these two individuals because of their role within the National Council of civil
01:16:39 liberties I don't really know I can't
01:16:53 know I can't remember I can't remember this aspect at all would uh an SDS undercover police officer be expected to report on the National Council for civil liberties uh if they came across intelligence
01:17:04 intelligence peripherally yes I think we would pass it on to the security service and that would include information about haret Harmon in her
01:17:17 information about haret Harmon in her capacity as someone working uh with the National Council for civil liberties I believe it would have yes and the same for Paul boting yes it would have goodp to those and that would be the case not
01:17:33 those and that would be the case not withstanding that Harriet Harmon was at the time A Member of Parliament we wouldn't do investigate her directly if she could came up in other circumstances we probably would include her
01:17:57 name can we take that down now please I want to show you a series of minutes uh about senior managers reaction to that 1983
01:18:03 1983 report can we start with 748 422 this is tab B5 sir can we have page
01:18:17 three minute five which is the one at the
01:18:30 bottom this is from just just cut off and Below it's from the assistant um ACC and it's to the DAC SB the report is an excellent piece of work and a copy has been handed to the commissioner we spoke and I understand
01:18:43 commissioner we spoke and I understand the home office numbered copy has been handed to Mr Hayden Phillips against uh his
01:18:55 his signature did you know either at the time or at any other time uh that
01:18:57 uh that AC uh thought that this report was excellent no I didn't think I do I can't remember
01:19:06 remember now and if we can go to page nine
01:19:14 please minute 15
01:19:24 I think that must be
01:19:31 a in conclusion it may be pertinent to question whether such a unit is necessary when District information units already exist reporting to a department when information of use in the context inv Vision could be dealt
01:19:43 the context inv Vision could be dealt with by adapting the existing framework I need to explain the context behind that this is from Commander Ops um Peter felen and he was expressing the opinion in a debate which is set out in the
01:20:01 in a debate which is set out in the minute uh to the effect that he did not think that intelligence in this area that's the
01:20:13 intelligence in this area that's the police monitoring uh groups ought to be gathered from covert sources and then sent to a
01:20:16 sent to a department were you aware of Commander felin's View
01:20:32 I can't remember that now can you recall whether you were given any instructions relating to this no I
01:20:40 this no I can't if we uh take that down and go now to
01:20:41 to 35096 tab B6 sir
01:20:58 and if we can look at the uh we'll see first of all this is a a letter from Hayden Phillips to S Brian CB this is within the home office it's about police
01:21:14 within the home office it's about police accountability in the Metropolis special Branch it's concerned with the reaction the home office reaction to the report
01:21:25 the home office reaction to the report uh we've been looking at if we could go to page two please and look at the bottom two
01:21:32 paragraphs this is a the next letter in the series of Correspondence March 1983 um this one to Hayden Phillips the report is however a contentious document because it relates to political
01:21:45 because it relates to political extremism which is closely connected with elected GLC members openly carrying out their publicized policies if I had
01:21:58 out their publicized policies if I had to justify producing it I would say that it contains assessed intelligence relating to public order and it assists senior officers by drawing their attention to a further dimension in the
01:22:17 attention to a further dimension in the policing environment what this is is the Metropolitan Police Service response to concerns expressed by the home office about Gathering intelligence in relation
01:22:28 about Gathering intelligence in relation to elected officials it goes on to say I do not think that mpsb should take an active interest in individuals or groups just because they seem unpalatable to us
01:22:41 just because they seem unpalatable to us are highly critical of police or want to transform the present system of police accountability we are dealing here with a broader concept of public order intelligence and on this particular
01:22:54 intelligence and on this particular aspect have probably gone as far as a special Branch should go the commissioner now has the opportunity to direct other officers to take note of the overt activities of these groups and
01:23:07 the overt activities of these groups and to determine whether they are monitoring police activity fairly or are just engaged in destructive criticism if we go to um the top of the next
01:23:27 page it was appro roate uh for mpsb to prepare the report although some of the content has been published in some form or other some information was from our secret sources and from the security
01:23:38 secret sources and from the security service and it would not really have been feasible to have supplied material for say a branch in a department to formulate a report similarly because we
01:23:50 formulate a report similarly because we are not talking about subversion in the accepted definition of the word I would not have expected a security service initiative here however we are talking
01:24:02 initiative here however we are talking about political extremists so lest there should be any doubt I should stress that we fully accept that subversion is a
01:24:15 we fully accept that subversion is a matter for the security service and that I do not intend that mpsb should either intrude on this role or attempt to duplicate any part of it I think that I appreciate the reasons for your concern over this matter particularly as police accountability is
01:24:29 particularly as police accountability is a current and quite legitimate political issue in London we can discuss this further if you wish and if we zoom out just to confirm the signatory it's from DAC
01:24:42 DAC hwit yeah so we can see from that uh that DAC huitt was advancing to the home office two
01:24:53 office two justifications uh for Gathering such intelligence public order and the policing
01:25:00 policing environment were you aware of this
01:25:13 environment were you aware of this debate between the home office and the Metropolitan Police Service at the time I have a vague memory of it yes how were you so aware who General talk in in among senior officers in the branch
01:25:26 uh and what was the effect of that
01:25:35 talk I think we were more careful in in what we
01:25:43 reported will you ever directed not to report at all on police monitoring
01:25:48 groups not that I can
01:25:55 remember can we take that document down now please and can we have up
01:25:59 [Music]
01:26:15 20770 this is T B10 sir uh this is a report uh which has come from the SDS in the leftand margin you will see it's about the friends of Blair Peach stated the 18th of April 1984
01:26:27 the 18th of April 1984 could we have a look first of all at uh paragraph
01:26:36 two on Tuesday the 17th of April 1984 at 8:00 P.M a meeting took place at centerprise Kingsland Road East 8 entitled oppression and resistance this was the first of five events organized
01:26:51 was the first of five events organized by the friends of Blair peach in their week of resistance to commemorate the death of peach if you could go now to the next
01:27:05 paragraph sorry to paragraph three thank you the meeting which was attended by approximately 40 people was opened by privacy of the friends of Blair Peach and the Hackney workers
01:27:16 Blair Peach and the Hackney workers educational Association he urged those present not to forget the circumstances surrounding the death of Peach and to
01:27:35 surrounding the death of Peach and to continue the struggle Against Racism and policing by coercion this was the first and last reference to Peach during the meeting privacy then introduced the evening
01:27:37 evening speaker uh why was the SDS reporting on the campaigning of the friends of Blair
01:27:50 friends of Blair Peach I think Beau the information came to them which factor even if there were others
01:28:15 probably could we uh take that down now please could we have up the document which ends it's a ucpi number 4584 tab
01:28:17 4584 tab b42 sir
01:28:48 4584 [Music]
01:28:58 thank you [Music]
01:29:09 [Music] uh this these are the home it's a letter about the home office guidelines on the work of a special Branch it's D dated the 19th of December
01:29:16 December 1984 and this letter is a a letter that was issued alongside um the guidance um
01:29:32 can we have a look um over the page please I'm looking for the section on the note on race and
01:29:43 police just a
01:29:54 [Music] moment if we can go back a page to paragraph five on the first page should say first of all this was not published the GU the guidelines were this letter was um just circulated
01:30:11 this letter was um just circulated internally paragraph five when a special branch is operating in support of the Security Service Chief officers should attach importance to the need to consult that service and to seek its advice as necessary this is particularly important
01:30:28 necessary this is particularly important when collecting processing and recording information about subversive and potentially subversive organizations or individuals under the definition of subversion given in the guidelines an organization currently operating within the law May nevertheless be subversive because its
01:30:44 nevertheless be subversive because its long-term aim satisfy the definition and therefore be a proper subject of Investigation senior officers must exercise strict control over the
01:30:58 exercise strict control over the selection of targets for investigation when the current activities of an organization are legitimate and peaceful when intelligence is gathered on subversive organizations very great
01:31:12 on subversive organizations very great care should always be taken not to give grounds for special Branch inquiries being
01:31:13 being misrepresented as wrongful police interference in the exercise of civil and political Liberties this applies
01:31:26 and political Liberties this applies especially to coverage of demonstration and protest marches which will often provide an opportunity for the collection of information about subversive elements in a particular organization then if we go over the page against that background to paragraph
01:31:49 six special Branch investigations into subversive activities in par and in particularly sensitive fields for example in education exam establishments in trade unions in industry and among
01:32:04 in trade unions in industry and among racial minorities must be conducted with particular care so as to avoid any suggestion that special branches are investigating matters involving the
01:32:15 investigating matters involving the legitimate expression of views inquiries into subversive activities in these fields which may be necessary to meet the requirements of the security service should be initiated only after
01:32:27 should be initiated only after consultation with the security uh service and if we go to the very bottom of paragraph 7 the actions of industrial militants
01:32:39 7 the actions of industrial militants only become subversive when their intent is to threaten the safety and well-being of the state and to undermine or overthrow parliamentary democracy eight
01:32:55 overthrow parliamentary democracy eight it is not the function of Force Special Branch to investigate individuals and groups merely because their policies are unpalatable or because they are highly critical of the police or because they
01:33:11 critical of the police or because they want to transform the present system of police
01:33:18 police accountability Mr waight were you made aware uh of the contents of this
01:33:29 aware uh of the contents of this letter i remember this letter now it's too long ago is it likely uh that you saw this
01:33:31 saw this letter I think it's probable I did yes
01:33:42 letter I think it's probable I did yes can you help us at all as to how quickly a document like this is likely to have been
01:33:44 been circulated I think it been opened
01:33:52 discussion and I'm sure we would have known about it maybe not not physically but uh we have spoken a it and my question was about
01:34:03 spoken a it and my question was about how quickly this document is dated the 19th of December 1984 well I can't comment on that it's too long ago is it likely to have been days weeks months or
01:34:16 days weeks months or years well things of this nature would usually be in days we we' know uh can we take that down now please
01:34:28 know uh can we take that down now please bearing in mind that date can we look at 22144 tab b62 sir in the second file
01:34:58 22144 it's probably a ucpi
01:35:21 number uh this is a an SDS report again you can see that from the top right it's dated the 28th of August 19 1985 um it the marginal heading is independent Committee of inquiry into policing in Hackney could we look at
01:35:34 policing in Hackney could we look at paragraph two please also Bears uh your signature submitted here with is a copy of a mailing by the independent Committee of inquiry into policing in
01:35:48 Committee of inquiry into policing in Hackney which has been commissioned by the roach family support committee to investigate and report on the the nature of policing Trends and developments in Hackney with particular reference to the
01:35:59 Hackney with particular reference to the death of Colin roach Stoke Newton Police Station and the relationship between the police and the black community can we
01:36:13 police and the black community can we take it from the fact that you've signed this report that you would certainly have seen
01:36:18 have seen it excuse me of course I must have seen it at the time but I can't remember now uh and it's clear from the face of
01:36:35 now uh and it's clear from the face of uh the report uh that it engages issues of both police accountability and race
01:36:37 race yes if we go to uh page uh four
01:36:51 please and this is part of the um attached leaflet take your
01:36:55 take your time uh could we have a look right at the bottom who is financing the inquiry the independent inquiry is supported financially by the greater London
01:37:06 financially by the greater London Council this has enabled the part-time employment of two research workers and an
01:37:11 an administrative uh assistant and one paragraph above what will the inquiry achieve sooner or later policing in Hackney had to be comprehensively
01:37:22 Hackney had to be comprehensively documented it is hope that both local people and government agencies will be provided with sufficient facts in order to seize the time and deal seriously with policing in Hackney
01:37:39 with policing in Hackney so we can see this is clearly engaging police in accountability and is an exercise partially funded by the greater London Council isn't
01:37:48 it would appear so from the form yes
01:37:54 why was this being
01:38:02 reported I think it's one of those things where people come across a leaflet and submit it um we've just looked at the the
01:38:15 it um we've just looked at the the guidance letter uh about what to do in relation to sensitive inquiries which engage police accountability and and race um and if we go back to the first page of the
01:38:31 report see bottom left this was copied to the security service can you recall whether this document was copied to the security service in the usual way that SDS
01:38:43 service in the usual way that SDS intelligence was or did you have any prior conversation with the security service about whether or not this was
01:38:55 service about whether or not this was the sort of inquir iry into sensitive areas that was justified I've known no memory now this
01:39:08 form I'm going to give you I'll give you a moment Mr Wade thank you I'm I'm intending to ask you two or three questions before the
01:39:23 you two or three questions before the break is that something you that would be
01:39:25 be thank
01:39:26 thank you would you accept that this report was a breach of the guidance that we've
01:39:37 was a breach of the guidance that we've just looked at in relation to its anti- police
01:39:39 police content probably and would you accept that it's also a breach of the guidance we've just looked at in so far as it deals with uh racial Justice
01:39:55 deals with uh racial Justice campaigning again we would have done but we were so used to sending things straight away to the box and let them make
01:40:04 decisions that answer I think all but preempts my next and final question before the break is the reality uh that you just carried on doing what you had been doing before I believe so pretty
01:40:20 before I believe so pretty much so would that be an appropriate moment for the morning break would
01:40:34 Mr w we break for 15 minutes now for the benefit of the um transcribers uh to enable them to have a pause you please take advantage of the same opportunity and um if at any stage you feel you do
01:40:49 and um if at any stage you feel you do need a break just say so and we'll have one
01:40:51 one right right break 15 minutes
01:41:22 it's
01:56:51 e e
01:57:53 thank you sir uh Mr wa I'm going to move now to another topic it's the infiltration of the campaign for nuclear uh disarmament starting at a high level of
01:58:08 disarmament starting at a high level of generality it's right isn't it that cndd was largely Cooperative with the police in relation to large
01:58:15 to large marches remember yes uh but some of their members were involved in nonviolent direct
01:58:34 action I believe to be true yes uh although equally many were not some were not um CND
01:58:45 not um CND itself did not have subversive aims did it
01:58:50 it no uh and uh members of the public uh were of course entitled to campaign
01:59:02 were of course entitled to campaign against nuclear weapons if they saw fit weren't they I believe so yes and to seek to change public opinion
01:59:09 opinion yes was there a fear though that CND was being
01:59:15 being used first of all possibly by foreign powers I'm not aware of that or by domestic extremists as they were termed yes I did know that to what
01:59:28 end your own political
01:59:37 desires the intelligence uh that your officers obtained uh was to the effect uh that these extremists weren't getting
01:59:56 these extremists weren't getting anywhere with their desire uh to subvert the the direction of CND to their will is that
02:00:00 is that right I believe it's probably true yes well let's have a look at a couple of reports first of all can we look at 728 978 this is the 1985 SDS annual
02:00:17 report if we could go to page 13
02:00:25 paragraph [Music]
02:00:31 [Music] 34 this is the conclusion of the section in that Year's report for CND it reads CND is now effectively dominated by the Orthodox left and this was reflected in the election of Paul Johns to the post
02:00:50 the election of Paul Johns to the post of chairman the Earth while influence of trotskyists Communists and other hardliners having diminished and if we um take that down and look at the security service View and have up
02:01:26 29239 um and this is a Security Service note for file it's dated the 8th of March uh
02:01:28 March uh 1984 it's about a meeting between the security service and your predecessor DCI short and Di uh
02:01:39 Di uh Barber uh
02:01:47 Barber uh and it uh also um deals with uh the situation within CND
02:02:02 the first paragraph please thank you on the 28th of February 1984 DCI David short and Di Mike Barber visited CSH for discussions the principal meeting was with F2 and I
02:02:14 principal meeting was with F2 and I think that says R and Security Service Officer 2 and F6 s Security Service Officer 4 and myself f2r initially outlined their current interest in an approach to CND which largely echoed
02:02:26 approach to CND which largely echoed what F2 had already discussed with cquad in January SDS said that their assessment was that there was no effective ring of subversives unduly
02:02:40 effective ring of subversives unduly influencing the Democratic structure of CND the general discussion was useful and f2r subsequently said that it was a
02:02:55 and f2r subsequently said that it was a good opportunity to put their case face to face over lunch DCI short told me that H and88 has joined Hackney CND which will improve their coverage so the position appears to have been that both the security
02:03:14 been that both the security service and the SDS were of the view that the extreme left were getting nowhere within CND is that fair I believe sir uh and yet um supported by the
02:03:25 sir uh and yet um supported by the security Service uh SDS infiltration of CND continued didn't it I don't know the dates now well I can tell you that it did okay I'll accept
02:03:40 tell you that it did okay I'll accept that um this document is dated 8th of March 1984 which we understand to be four days before you joined the SDS is it likely that you either were made
02:04:03 it likely that you either were made aware or soon became aware uh that the security services view was that there was no effective ring of subversives unduly influencing the Democratic structure of CND yes I would have accepted I accepted what I was told by Mike Barber who stayed on and was with me on the
02:04:18 stayed on and was with me on the SDS if we could take that down and have 29255 up please this is from a few
02:04:32 29255 up please this is from a few months later uh it's tab B44 sir uh this is again a security service file note it's um relating to a meeting on the 24th of January 1985 we see from the top paragraph on
02:04:43 1985 we see from the top paragraph on the 24th of January DCI Tony weight and Di Mike Barber visited CSH they were introduced to Blan who is taking over liais and from
02:05:01 liais and from so we can see that you are clearly uh in the role of DCI SDS by this date if we can zoom back out please
02:05:11 please um and look I'll just find the precise reference if give me a moment
02:05:28 please if we can have um the paragraph Under The Heading hn 65 [Music]
02:05:33 [Music] please thank you he has now notionally gone off to the south of France uh freewheeling SDS are happy for a debrief and will liaz with blank to
02:05:47 a debrief and will liaz with blank to fix a date h88 is now the main CN Source but he not well placed in Hackney Tony weight implied that in the light of of the Parliamentary select committee mpsb
02:05:58 the Parliamentary select committee mpsb we looking again at their penetration of CND with
02:06:06 CND with hn33 they still have two piece sources um I want to ask you first of all from your experience who was the
02:06:20 all from your experience who was the driving force behind the infiltration of CND
02:06:25 I would assume it would have been the security
02:06:30 security service and can we assume from this record that you were becoming
02:06:41 record that you were becoming uneasy about the ongoing infiltration of CND yes I think I was and was that because the Parliamentary select committee was looking at special Branch intelligence gathering about
02:06:56 about CND I don't think I was aware of that but
02:07:02 but U the climate was changing and the CND was changing with it and nevertheless infiltration of both CND and the peace movement is continued by hn 88 and
02:07:17 hn33 why
02:07:26 I think I don't can't recall who the officers were but they would pick up things about CND from the whichever organization that were in whether it was Tris or
02:07:32 Tris or or or
02:07:38 or or Mist they would have picked up Snippets of information about the CND I don't think we're doing anything really active on the CN itself well hn8 was a member
02:07:55 on the CN itself well hn8 was a member of of Hackney CND and described as the main
02:07:56 main source
02:07:58 source yeah why was that the
02:08:07 case I suppose he was working in the Hackney area I can't remember which organization he was meant to be covering but purely CND came into it were you aware of any political
02:08:25 aware of any political interest in in intelligence about CND no I don't think I was do you know what SDS reporting about CND was used
02:08:37 CND was used for no I
02:08:52 don't uh can we take that document down now please and have 74 4 8881
02:09:15 please uh and could we have um page 26 please this is again the 1985 annual report paragraph sorry this is your witness statement um about the 1985 annual report if we could have paragraph 54
02:09:33 please I cannot now remember why the 1985 SDS annual report refers to the possibility that a failure in security would prove embarrassing to the commissioner this would have been in my
02:09:45 commissioner this would have been in my opinion at the time and would have been generally accepted view amongst SDS management my understanding was that a s DS security breach might be embarrassing for the commissioner because it would have shown the police spying on these
02:10:00 have shown the police spying on these organizations the widespread coverage in the guardian speculating on the existence of the SDS referred to in the 1984 SDS annual report is an example of
02:10:12 1984 SDS annual report is an example of this the risk of that sort of publicity would have caused a threat of anti- police demonstrations given rise to a possibility of embarrassment for the government of the time time the Press would have made hay of the fact of us
02:10:26 would have made hay of the fact of us doing this despite not being a police state can you explain please what you meant by would have made
02:10:44 meant by would have made hay I'm afraid this page of time I can't explain that no this is a part of the your first witness statement to the inquiry I understand that um can you
02:11:00 inquiry I understand that um can you help us with what you thought the Press would have done if they had discovered uh that CND was being infiltrated by an undercover police
02:11:22 officer they've been very much offended they affected innocent people and then by lar we
02:11:25 didn't Target the
02:11:36 CND well you had deployed hn 65 into CND you being the SDS
02:11:44 SDS yeah hn 88 was a member of Hackney CND in the main remaining Source in CND plus peripheral reporting by other off
02:11:54 off officers well that they had more than one
02:11:58 one role I beg your pardon they had more than one role you know quite often especially in East London you could be look to several
02:12:12 look to several organizations was your concern that the thrust of media reporting would have been the police had gone too far
02:12:26 yes if it were to be said that the SDS had in fact gone too far in relation to its infiltration of CND what would you say to that now I don't think so why
02:12:37 not it was a big organization and it would have taken there had lots of branches and it would have taken up a lot of
02:12:48 Manpower but you agreed with me at the outset of questioning about CND uh that in relation to Marchers it was largely Cooperative with the police there was there were always elements that were out to create a
02:13:10 elements that were out to create a situation were large marches by CND the subject of significant public disorder not that I can remember can we take um your witness statement down now please and can we have now 728 978
02:13:21 have now 728 978 [Music]
02:13:28 uh this is uh back to the 1985 annual report itself page six
02:13:38 please paragraph 12 this is under the section on security despite our care occasions arise when security is breached one such
02:13:57 arise when security is breached one such incident occurred in February 198 5 When Miss Kathy masseter a former box 500 desk officer appeared on Channel 4 television to give an account of security service surveillance an investigation of trade unionists members of the National Council for civil
02:14:14 of the National Council for civil liberties and in particular members of the campaign for nuclear disarmament Miss masseters disclosures led to a security vulnerability being identified as a means of addressing that vulnerability steps have since been taken to prevent security service desk
02:14:29 taken to prevent security service desk officers from identifying our officers false
02:14:36 false identities were your concerns about this Revelation twofold first of all a concern about the operational security of the
02:14:50 of the SDS yes and secondly a concern uh that the Press uh would make hay about the uh reporting of reporting on
02:15:03 about the uh reporting of reporting on CND by the state that we assume that was a threat
02:15:12 a threat yes the date of this is just before the Parliamentary select committee that we were looking at earlier reported did the fact that a parliamentary select committee was at the time
02:15:25 the time uh looking at the role of special Branch uh
02:15:29 uh including uh special Branch interest in CND members exacerbate those concerns I'm not sure that it did why
02:15:42 did why not we didn't make too much of an effort to to infiltrate
02:15:48 CND but you had an officer just exfiltrating from CND officer and another one in Hackney CND it was a good entree into other organizations if you in CND D
02:16:11 acne did you see the select committee report when it came out I can't remember it can you recall whether you were told the
02:16:16 the outcome no I can't did you understand it to involve significant concern about special branch in intelligence gathering on
02:16:30 CND not now I can't no I can't why
02:16:32 can't why did the SDS continue to collect intelligence about CND even after the select committee report I think the information used to
02:16:50 report I think the information used to come to you come to you if you were in the area of East London where politically very active and uh you you would assume you get you get the information from
02:17:03 get you get the information from colleagues not not in the police in the extremist
02:17:14 extremist world the security service was still at that stage interested in CND was their in continuing interest a perpetuating factor I would assume so yes uh there did come a time though didn't there uh when the security service uh lost
02:17:26 service uh lost interest I believe so yeah let's take the document that's on the screen down and have up 29274 to locate that in time tab b97
02:17:50 sir and that's a note for file produced by the security service on the 15th of October 19 1986 following a visit to the SDS on the 14th of October of that year paragraph 2 DCI waight said that the CND Source
02:18:06 DCI waight said that the CND Source would shortly be retiring and asked whether we would wish to support a successor in that organization F4 was adamant that there was no such requirement is it right to
02:18:21 requirement is it right to say that you were seeking to to establish in 1986 what level of interest uh the security service still had so you could
02:18:34 security service still had so you could decide uh where to target your officers I think that would be right yes and the fact of the matter was interest in CND was waning yes I believe so
02:18:54 could we take that down now if you need um if you need a to take a drink or a short break just say so please no I'm I'm I'm all right
02:19:12 really uh I'm going to move now to another aspect of the peace movement the greenham common women Lambeth women for peace and the women's peace movement uh in your witness statement you described them as a a threat to property
02:19:21 property not particularly violent generally lawful and that ultimately hn33 was
02:19:37 lawful and that ultimately hn33 was withdrawn were you in relation to the greenham common women aware of government
02:19:46 interest not really I don't think no when you say not really was there any sense that it was an important issue of the day on which the government uh wanted timely accurate
02:19:58 accurate intelligence I think the American base was being bigoted that would have been in interest to to the
02:20:12 been in interest to to the government could we have up please 36721 [Music]
02:20:38 see
02:21:04 I think it's been noted the wrong way around it's 36721 is what you said yes 36721
02:21:27 it's on the one it's it's not in this particular section it's in the wi
02:21:49 part for
02:22:24 see
02:23:00 I have to move right um thank you I'll move on for the moment what that was was a a document from the private secretary in the home office uh which had been annotated for the benefit of the then prime minister Margaret
02:23:15 prime minister Margaret Thatcher uh the document itself contained information about a forthcoming protest uh by the peace movement at an
02:23:36 Airbase does the fact that that sort of communication was happening helped to jog your memory about the following questions first of all can you recall whether the mod was feeding into requests for
02:23:51 requests for intelligence about the women peace movement in any way not that I'm aware of if they had been would you have known about it
02:24:03 about it necessarily no I don't think so do you know whether the home office was feeding into requests for intelligence about the women's peace
02:24:23 intelligence about the women's peace movement I don't know that again if they had been would you necessarily have known about it I think I would have expected to yes do you know whether the C either the
02:24:37 do you know whether the C either the cabinet office or the prime minister's office were feeding into requests for intelligence about the women's peace movement not that I'm aware of I beg your pardon not that I'm aware of and again if at a high level they had been
02:24:58 again if at a high level they had been do doing so and that those requests had been fed through the chain of command would you necessarily have known the origin of the
02:25:10 known the origin of the request no I don't believe so did you ever get any feedback about the SS's reporting on the greenham common women not that I can remember now no all the Lambeth women's for peace no or any other part of the
02:25:27 peace no or any other part of the women's peace movement not that I can Rec call now
02:25:39 Rec call now no would you agree that the greenham common women and the women's peace movement in general were not subversive yes I
02:25:50 subversive yes I would and as peace movement uh might suggest were not violent to people yes I think that would have been true it's the reality that the Lamberth women for
02:25:59 women for peace were demonstrating and active to the level of perhaps organizing a Sittin and putting themselves at risk
02:26:10 and putting themselves at risk occasionally of arrest for obstruction that sort of level I can't remember that now and that the green some greenham
02:26:25 now and that the green some greenham common women were involved in criminal damage to military property I think I had heard that
02:26:38 yes would you agree that infiltration through the Lambeth women's for peace was not a particularly effective way to gain access to the greenham common women
02:26:54 I don't think I can answer that one why
02:26:56 one why not I haven't got that
02:27:07 knowledge and yet the deployment into Lambeth women for peace was a long deployment 1983 to 1987 why was there such a long deployment into a group which wasn't
02:27:25 deployment into a group which wasn't subversive wasn't violent to people and was itself um involved in protests of which might involve only minor
02:27:32 criminality I think the women at greenham
02:27:39 greenham common essentially lawful but not always and they were given to public order
02:27:47 offenses was there a feeling that the high-profile uh that cutting perimeter fences and trespassing on Military
02:28:02 trespassing on Military property uh was such uh that the SDS uh needed uh to assist uh policing I think uniform police were appreciative of our our efforts did you
02:28:18 appreciative of our our efforts did you ever get any feedback to that effect not really no not that I can remember
02:28:27 can I move now to the Socialist uh workers uh party uh you've said in your witness statement that you considered the S WP to be a threat to public
02:28:43 to be a threat to public order could you help us with what your basis for saying that
02:28:53 is give was a choice IST group whose basic aim at the end was everth the state but in terms of public as a threat to public
02:29:05 to public order what was the basis for your view that thep was a threat to public
02:29:22 order they spawned at a group called The Red action as far as I can remember that were actively seeking right Wingers to beat
02:29:34 up did you attend in any capacity swp demonstrations or demonstrations at which there was a significant s WP presence yes I would have attended them as cover for the SDS officer that would have been attending the
02:29:49 have been attending the meeting did you ever personally witness public
02:29:50 public disorder um by swp members I believe that the whopping press
02:30:03 press dispute there several demonstrations there and some of the leftwing frites were PR prominent in in the activities at the
02:30:15 activities at the time when you say prominent in the activity at the time were they
02:30:25 disorderly at whopping yes are there any other occasions in which you've personally uh witnessed disturbances to public order no not that I can Rec
02:30:40 order no not that I can Rec call can we have up please uh 14915 tab b33
02:30:52 sir this is an SDS intelligence report dated the 9th of November uh 1984 so can we assume that this probably crossed your
02:31:07 desk I would imagine so could we have a look first of all at paragraph two
02:31:15 please so it's on the 31st of October 1984 the cuden TU nuum support committee held a meeting at Ruskin house Kum Road cuden the
02:31:29 at Ruskin house Kum Road cuden the meeting was held to coordinate support for the miners within the burough of
02:31:41 for the miners within the burough of Cen so we can see that it was a support committee event could we look at paragraph three please for some
02:31:49 details the main speaker was Peter Spalding of cuden trades Council who dealt mainly with the need to collect money and food for the Striking miners during the discussion the following
02:32:03 during the discussion the following regular collection points were nominated and
02:32:04 and coordinators appointed for each and if we can zoom out to see the list
02:32:15 below uh if you could just highlight the list please
02:32:25 see there's a list there mainly of either shopping areas or specific supermarkets with the details of those who are going to coordinate
02:32:40 who are going to coordinate collections in support of the uh striking
02:32:46 miners could we go to paragraph four please
02:32:54 Spalding also mentioned the need for setting up nuum support groups at
02:33:06 setting up nuum support groups at workplaces he praised privacy the cooh shop stward at St Lawrence's hospital car schalton who has successfully organized a support group at the hospital it is of interest to note that privacy was originally encouraged to form the support group by cro Cen
02:33:19 form the support group by cro Cen Socialist Workers Party of which he is a member he is also known to be the subject of disciplinary proceedings at the hospital as a result of his
02:33:31 the hospital as a result of his activities if we go to paragraph five now
02:33:42 please privacy a NY shop steward told the meeting that she had visited Ellington cery Northumberland in her official Union capacity the previous weekend to hand over collection money
02:33:57 weekend to hand over collection money she spoke of the hardship being suffered by striking minors and their families and urge continued support to enable the strike to
02:34:04 strike to continue finally paragraph
02:34:20 7 the meeting was attended by local labor party and Trade union members and by several members of cuden social Workers Party the swp members in accordance with current party strategy they did not attempt to push their
02:34:32 they did not attempt to push their revolutionary socialist views but were content to offer their support to the collection efforts as a first step in establishing their
02:34:50 credibility having taken you through that report in some detail why was
02:34:52 why was it that one of your officers was reporting on the collection of money and
02:35:06 reporting on the collection of money and food for striking miners at South London supermarkets and shopping
02:35:12 centers I can't remember this incident myself at this stage but if we had
02:35:23 myself at this stage but if we had somebody who was in the swp he would cover this a as a normal barch activity uh the collection of food and money for
02:35:43 collection of food and money for striking miners is not intelligence that was required for either public order or counter subversion purposes was it
02:35:45 it no why was that not excised from the
02:35:57 report I think we just passed it on to the security service to make it what they
02:36:06 they wanted there is reference in the report in two places to the Socialist Workers Party but very much in the context of them supporting their dispute because that was the party line there's no
02:36:17 that was the party line there's no mention of any public disorder was there no why is it that intelligence was being
02:36:25 being recorded about the wp's campaigning activity in support of
02:36:36 wp's campaigning activity in support of striking miners I can't I answer that at this stage so many years
02:36:50 this stage so many years ago doing the best you can now would it have been of any use for either public order or counter subversion purposes it does not be
02:37:03 so why was uh reporting on the Trade union activities of a NY shop steward included in the report I don't know I can't answer that now at this stage reporting on the legitimate
02:37:18 stage reporting on the legitimate activities of trade unionists was one of the sensitive areas which we looked at in the letter accompanying the 1984 home office
02:37:30 1984 home office guidance shouldn't more care have been taken not to include in reporting details about the legitimate activities of a new shop
02:37:45 of a new shop steward we probably could have done less back in those days can I take that as an acceptance that it should not have been
02:38:02 reported the officers concerned if they were there report what they saw and then leave it
02:38:08 leave it to the branch to disseminate it where it would and for the security service to make its opinion to have a look at it should you not have uh noticed this and
02:38:22 should you not have uh noticed this and caused it to be edited out of the report probably I should in those days
02:38:30 yes even if intelligence about the swp's activity was needed and I'm stressing
02:38:44 activity was needed and I'm stressing the if but assuming it was did it really need an undercover police officer to keep tabs on the the S swp support of the minor
02:38:54 the minor strike yeah wouldn't not have been too recall what the miners were doing but it would General swp
02:39:10 activity the guidance uh that was in Force at the time let's have a look at it it's four the document it's a ucpi document which ends 45 4
02:39:35 five this is a letter dated the 29th of May
02:39:41 May 1974 it was a letter from the security service uh which expanded upon uh guidance about the terms of reference for special branches which had been issued in
02:39:55 1970 if we could look first of all at paragraph
02:40:08 1 the security service is most grateful for the assistance it receives from special branches in the investigation of subversive activities in trade unions especially at times of industrial dispute this assistance is provided in
02:40:22 dispute this assistance is provided in accordance with the terms of reference for a special Branch issued on the authority of the association of chief police officers in June 1970 in England
02:40:33 police officers in June 1970 in England and Wales we could look at paragraph two par three of the terms of reference about the tasks of a special Branch refers specifically to Industrial disputes in the following terms to
02:40:45 disputes in the following terms to investigate any subversive background to demonstrations and breaches of public order and in consultation with the security service to certain industrial disputes and if we could go over the page to paragraph 7
02:40:56 page to paragraph 7 please in this connection it may be helpful to remind you of the distinction
02:41:07 helpful to remind you of the distinction we draw between subversion and militancy in industrial disputes in the following definitions subversion is defined as activities threatening the safety or well-being of the state and intended to undermine or overthrow parliamentary democracy by political industrial or
02:41:19 democracy by political industrial or violent means industrial militancy is defined as Readiness to use or threaten the use of strikes Sittin and other forms of aggressive action in the
02:41:33 forms of aggressive action in the furtherance of industrial disputes and an unwillingness to seek or accept compromis Solutions through negotiations conciliation or
02:41:48 conciliation or arbitration can you recall whether you were aware of this guidance uh at the time of the minor strike I can't recall that now
02:42:02 strike I can't recall that now no if you had been and had applied it which side of the line was the
02:42:10 was the swp's support of the minor strike was it subversion or was it industrial militancy I'm believe what you told me it been would have been the drial
02:42:34 militancy could we um take that down please could we have up um again the guidance letter that we looked at earlier for the one that ends
02:42:45 4538 tab b41 sir
02:43:01 um page three paragraph 16 [Music]
02:43:13 please paragraph 16 is this under the subheading records records should be maintained in order to discharge effectively the functions listed in paragraphs 3 to 12 above it is important however because of the particular
02:43:29 however because of the particular sensitivity of the information concerned that only information relevant to those functions should be recorded close attention should therefore be paid to
02:43:44 attention should therefore be paid to paragraph 3 to 12 and to the definitions given in paragraph 20 in deciding what information should be recorded or not recorded data on individuals or organizations should not under any circumstances be collected or held
02:43:55 circumstances be collected or held solely on the basis that such a person or organization supports unpopular causes or on the basis of race or Creed now that document is dated December
02:44:06 now that document is dated December 1984 the report we were looking at um
02:44:19 1984 the report we were looking at um about support for the minor strike is the previous month November 1984 can I ask you to help us with
02:44:34 can I ask you to help us with this was this directive on recordkeeping something completely new or was it a restatement of uh the policy position already in
02:44:40 place as far as I can remember from those days it was already in place
02:44:53 if we can um take that down please can we go to 14471 tab 45 sir
02:45:05 14471 tab 45 sir b45 this is an SDS intelligence report dated the 30th of January 1985 about a Southeast region trades Union
02:45:15 Union Congress uh day of action which was being planned for the 11th of February
02:45:29 1985 uh if we expand the text from paragraph two
02:45:38 please um I'm going to let you read this to yourself if you could let the projectionist know when you're ready for him to scroll down the question I'm going to have for you is whether you
02:45:53 going to have for you is whether you agree this report is purely about Trade union
02:46:00 [Music]
02:46:07 activity yes I've read that uh and then thank
02:46:17 you for
02:46:29 [Music]
02:46:50 yes I've read that now thank
02:46:58 you if you could go over the page thank you just a little bit at the top
02:47:18 [Music]
02:47:35 yes I've read it do you agree that this report is purely about Trade union activity it reads that way yes um would it follow that it is therefore of no policing value
02:47:51 it could be public order uh interest in this yes what's a public order interest in it I said there could have
02:48:03 could have been is there on in the on the face of this
02:48:04 this report no no not uh and Trade union the
02:48:15 not uh and Trade union the government uh dealing with trade unions politically sensitive issue in 1985
02:48:21 as far as M serves me I believe it was
02:48:30 yes uh we looked earlier at the guidance um about taking particular care with reports about Trade union activity do you accept that this report is clearly
02:48:44 you accept that this report is clearly in breach of the guidance on reporting on legitimate Trade union
02:48:57 on legitimate Trade union activity it could be read that way yes uh the date of this report is January 1985 so it post dates the letter we looked at a moment ago was the reality that the SDS simply continued to report as it had always
02:49:10 continued to report as it had always done I think that was larger yet and leaving it for the security service to take out of it what it would
02:49:23 do you accept uh that uh this information should not in fact have been
02:49:35 reported I suppose yes but this is in Metate
02:49:36 Metate well given the guidance and the political sensitivity at the
02:49:53 at the time wouldn't it also have been the case if you'd applied your mind to the question even at the time
02:50:05 probably can we take that down uh now please and can we move to the question of the animal rights
02:50:17 movement is it right uh that uh some animal rights activists by the time you became DC I of the SDS were committing
02:50:30 became DC I of the SDS were committing criminal offenses in the name of animal rights yes they were and was that a problem that was Waxing or Waning it was waxing I believe I can it's a long time ago now and the gravity of those offenses covered a
02:50:42 offenses covered a range with arson at one end graffiti at the other criminal damage home visits animal
02:50:56 criminal damage home visits animal liberations in between is that fair that is
02:51:03 is fair and that there were differences in the actions that were being taken by different groups for example the armm might get involved in violence to the
02:51:17 person I believe so back back in those days whereas the ALF ref rejected violence to the person
02:51:28 ALF ref rejected violence to the person but was involved in violence to property and animal liberations I believe there was some dispute between the organizations as to what form their protest should take uh you've used the word
02:51:40 take uh you've used the word organizations all of this was extremely loose wasn't it yes some of it was very loose
02:51:52 uh the South London animal movement
02:51:54 movement um can you help us as to your recollection now as to what slam was doing to promote animal
02:52:15 rights I this is difficult um there were I believe it was them was picketing butcher shops
02:52:26 picketing butcher shops so leafleting demonstrations that sort of thing that sort of thing yes but not as an organization involved in Arsen is that
02:52:41 organization involved in Arsen is that right some members of the organization might have broken break away groups resulting to ARs and other offenses but if that's right would they have been claimed in the name of the Al and not [Music]
02:52:55 [Music] slam I can't answer that I don't know the answer to
02:53:08 that I asked you whether the criminal offending was Waxing or Waning I want to to move to the question of conventional public
02:53:18 public order is it right that the animal rights movement was in the process essentially of switching tactics moving away way from Mass
02:53:26 demonstrations I can't remember now okay can we have up please
02:53:32 73092 uh to help you I'm going to call up the it's a 1984 SDS annual
02:53:42 report if we could have page 20 please paragraph 25
02:53:52 give you a moment to read that to yourself
02:54:22 [Music]
02:54:33 yes I've read that now um having um refreshed your memory do you agree that tactics were shifting traditional Mass demonstrations were
02:54:48 traditional Mass demonstrations were waning direct action as you said earlier was increasing I believe
02:55:01 so would you agree that the animal rights uh movement was not subversive of itself no could we take that document down please uh could we have up now
02:55:17 27549 tab b69 sir [Music]
02:55:19 [Music] uh this is a security service note of a meeting uh at which you were present the note is dated the 11th of December
02:55:41 note is dated the 11th of December 1985 the meeting was the 9th of December 1985 and the meeting was held at the security
02:55:46 security service can I uh ask that we have the paragraph three expanded
02:55:57 Tony weight described where the interests of his Squad lay and confirmed that his primary concern was to obtain information about organizations which could present Law and Order problems he said that even so our interests were closely parallel and the bulk of the intelligence received was reported to
02:56:09 intelligence received was reported to the security service via F4 he did not Target new sources without reference to ourselves and expressed his satisfaction with this
02:56:23 with this service received both from F4 and the desks there was a possibility that animal rights activities might shortly be taken over by criminal intelligence and the
02:56:45 by criminal intelligence and the greenham common protest was running into the sand so he might shortly be able to redeploy three of his sources in the meantime he was directing sources towards the swp in Hackney both following liaison with
02:56:57 ourselves I'm interested in the proposition uh that animal rights activity might have switched to the criminal intelligence uh people away
02:57:11 criminal intelligence uh people away from special Branch was that a question that had
02:57:17 that had Arisen because crime was waxing public disorder was
02:57:24 ring I don't know uh would it make sense as an explanation it would make a reasonable argument
02:57:33 argument yes if we could take that down now please and if we could have up your witness statement 748 881
02:57:43 748 881 [Music]
02:57:55 page
02:58:04 118 paragraph 313 this is Under The Heading Alf consideration may have been given to criminal intelligence unit taking over
02:58:16 criminal intelligence unit taking over coverage of the AL because it was crime there was a split in interest by us politically and them crime wise I do not remember who would have been involved in the discussions about this now there
02:58:34 the discussions about this now there were discussions at other stages about this proposition as well but I'm interested in just the generality what was the what did you mean in your witness statement uh by politically split interest by us
02:59:00 politically is the difference between a crime and people doing things to to overthrow the state I assume but the AL was not subversive I don't believe it was but these these are not just singles groups
02:59:17 these these are not just singles groups they amalgamation of people and various had various reasons doing what they did so what was the case for
02:59:29 case for responsibility for an investigating animal rights extremism remaining with special Branch including the SDS I think we we were in in the pole
02:59:43 SDS I think we we were in in the pole position we had experience of the animal rights
02:59:44 rights move which the crime people did not have
03:00:04 was it anything to do with the scale of the impact that um the more active animal rights extremists were having
03:00:12 probably the other the case against is presumably because the criminal
03:00:24 presumably because the criminal intelligence unit was more focused on Gathering evidence and Prosecuting people is that right I think that is probably true
03:00:35 right I think that is probably true yes did that not give rise to a dilemma for the
03:00:36 for the SDS
03:00:38 SDS namely you were infiltrating uh groups I use that word in a loose
03:00:50 uh groups I use that word in a loose sense infiltrating an environment in which people were committing quite serious crimes and yet the SDS was an intelligence only
03:01:06 operation officers in the field could and did pick up information of
03:01:18 information of crime but doesn't the problem then arise as to what to do with that because ultimately policing requires suspects to be charged and brought before
03:01:26 courts I believe that
03:01:33 uh that put
03:01:44 this our people would be passing on we would pass on information of crime to to to the crime criminal int Branch but by and large it was a public order
03:01:53 order problem if undercover officers of the SDS were going to be used for this work was consideration given as to who would give
03:02:07 give evidence uh in the event that Major Crimes serious crimes were uncovered not that I'm aware
03:02:18 of thank you I think this may be a an appropriate time to stop for lunch sir if you agree certainly um we'll resume um at
03:02:46 two
03:05:46 e for