Afternoon session intensely examining HN1 'Matt Rayner's sexual relationship with activist Denise Fuller. HN1 claims relationship was 'natural extension of friendship' despite being entirely based on deceit. Reveals he consulted Bob Lambert AFTER first sexual encounter, claims managers showed 'indifference' to relationships. Dramatic evidence includes 1998 letter to imprisoned activist professing ongoing feelings for Fuller years after deployment ended.
00:05:28 e e
00:06:34 can I be reminded we're going to go into a fully Open Session to begin with OR we not
00:06:36 not yes um this afternoon's proceedings are going to be live streamed to begin with
00:06:52 going to be live streamed to begin with at least and um those who have recording devices may use those devices to report what they hear in the hearing room um but only after 10 minutes of elapsed since the event that they're reporting they must not be used for recording ing uh there are reporting restriction orders which may apply later on in the
00:07:07 orders which may apply later on in the afternoon uh those must be complied with strictly
00:07:09 strictly yes thank you
00:07:17 sir hm1 picking up um where I left uh off which was the commencement of your um intimate and sexual relationship with Miss Fuller could we have a look please at paragraph
00:07:31 at paragraph 467 um of your Witness statement um it is
00:07:32 is Page uh
00:07:36 Page uh 20 uh I think it will be 11 10
00:07:38 11 10 11 forgive me for interrupting could someone please get my um transcription device oh yes running
00:07:51 properly let me hold you up but in that could be done in due course I'd be grateful so paragraph 467 of hm 1's witness statement please
00:08:02 uh it should be 210 to 11 I
00:08:14 [Music]
00:08:26 think okay do you still not have it on your screens I'm being T yeah
00:08:41 sorry hm1 just to explain we're keeping you waiting because the transcription in the room may not be working okay thank you
00:09:22 all right thank you I think with assistance um that's been resolved could we have on the screen please at the bottom of page 20 uh9 there or 210 on
00:09:34 bottom of page 20 uh9 there or 210 on the system and 211 thank you and hm1 I had read to you the first uh part the first 23ds of paragraph 467 I'd like to pick up um where I left off please so can we look um on the second of those two pages on the screen thank
00:09:53 you all right I'm going to pick up I was attracted to Liz we'd become close friends already and this felt like a natural extension of a friendship we already had it felt real and my feelings towards her were real and felt natural
00:10:06 towards her were real and felt natural uh this all occurred in minutes in her flat in what sense do you suggest that this was a natural extension of a
00:10:19 this was a natural extension of a friendship when in fact you were not who you told Miss Fuller you were um well I wasn't operating on the basis of everything I said um
00:10:30 basis of everything I said um was linked to who I really was it was all part of who I was required to be who I reported to be um and who everyone
00:10:43 I reported to be um and who everyone else was required to accept me as but in the context of forming an intimate and sexual relationship with a woman you weren't required to do that in your role as Matt Raina were you no no requirement at all and so what operated on your
00:11:01 at all and so what operated on your mind to consider that this was some sort of natural extension of a friendship when it was clearly a deceitful friendship designed to be deceitful from the outset given your
00:11:13 the outset given your role um well it was already deceitful um uh technically um by the time we'd got to this stage yes and so how is it that you come to describe it as a natural extension of the Friendship when it was all a deceit
00:11:31 the Friendship when it was all a deceit uh well because um allowing for that the fact it was already a deception it was it felt genuinely as if there was
00:11:42 it felt genuinely as if there was something uh more intense between us so genuine feelings on your part hn1 for Miss Fuller yes is that really the case or did you have in the back of your mind if not at the Forefront of your mind that you were
00:11:58 the Forefront of your mind that you were forming an especially close relationship with a Target effectively of your operation your intellig operation no that wasn't the
00:12:10 case throughout the period that you engaged in this relationship with Miss Fuller you contined didn't you to go twice weekly or at least thereabouts to meetings at the SDS safe
00:12:21 the SDS safe houses yes there you would have spoken with other undercover officers and your managers correct yes you had received advice um from the outset on your
00:12:35 advice um from the outset on your evidence about the importance of keeping your cover life and your real life separate hadn't you yes you understood
00:12:51 separate hadn't you yes you understood that your cover life and your real life were different and to be kept separate didn't you yes you had a wife at home who you were going home to is that correct uh yes uh but not that often but nonetheless you went home and
00:13:03 often but nonetheless you went home and and your home your life you contined to act as the husband of Mrs hn1
00:13:05 hn1 yes you understood didn't you that the relationship that you were forming with Miss Fuller was not natural at all but
00:13:18 Miss Fuller was not natural at all but based holy upon you your deceit of her as to who you really were um well I think I was as with most of those friendships I was well beyond the part of any attempted consider
00:13:29 the part of any attempted consider filment that what I was doing was a deception a deception began from day one of everybody do you accept that there's a material difference between forming a
00:13:43 a material difference between forming a deceitful friendship for the purposes of obtaining intelligence as part of your job and forming a deceitful sexual relationship with a woman which forms no part of your job I do there's a total difference yes and so the deceit was
00:13:56 difference yes and so the deceit was different wasn't it it wasn't deceit sanctioned in order for you to be an intelligence gathering undercover
00:14:13 intelligence gathering undercover officer but deceit born of your decision to enter into a relationship with Miss Fuller yeah the conscious [Music]
00:14:20 [Music] um a thought process that had any form of this was a um an act of deception in the way that it's being portrayed here in the question is it just wasn't it wasn't part of the wasn't part of my thought
00:14:32 part of the wasn't part of my thought process so whether it should have been or whether it um shouldn't have been it just wasn't it um it was something that within
00:14:40 within that what I considered to be um a gray area um it considered I just considered it to be a natural um whether it was natural or not there
00:14:55 um whether it was natural or not there was a level of intensity there um but I felt was Mutual that resulted in what happened um or I can says that is what happened as a result of those feelings so you didn't give a thought to the
00:15:06 so you didn't give a thought to the additional and separate deceit upon Miss fer involved in entering into an intimate relationship with her rather than the necessary friendship that might exist in order for you to do your
00:15:21 exist in order for you to do your job uh well I think I alluded to this um um a couple of days ago so from my own personal perspective I've would have considered I except there is a we can argue a difference here but um for me
00:15:35 argue a difference here but um for me the um the deception was so Advanced at that stage anyway in terms of the very close friendship we had uh um there wasn't a like a clinical distinction of this being uh within the context of how it
00:15:49 it happened significantly different um or indeed different from the level of deception that had already got me to this
00:15:57 this position is that really the truth hm1 that you didn't see a material difference between deceiving a woman into a sexual relationship which had nothing to do on your account with
00:16:09 nothing to do on your account with getting the job done and deceiving any number of people in order to ensure that you could obtain the best intelligence
00:16:24 you could obtain the best intelligence you could so all I all I can give you is how I felt at the time um and how this sort of clinical distinction of deception from an intense friendship um and that deception had even more sort of if you like um greater
00:16:41 of if you like um greater significance um as a result of um how those feelings developed um it just wasn't part of my thinking the deception was so Advanced already more than 30 years have passed have you reflected looking back on
00:16:56 have you reflected looking back on whether there was a material difference between the deception that was in inherent in your role and your deception of Denise Fuller in forming this sexual and intimate relationship with
00:17:17 her well I think it's a two-part answer for made so first part do I um do I have any different recollection um in The Cold Light of Day 30 years later as to um those thought processes and sort of
00:17:29 um those thought processes and sort of intensity of emotions that played out um at that time no I recall them being exactly as described um do I admit that it was the wrong thing to have done um then yes
00:17:42 then yes um Affairs are often wrong this was wrong shouldn't have happened should have exercised more control should have
00:17:55 have exercised more control should have controlled my emotions more um but all I can tell you is what happened and how and what led to it the question was whether you had reflected on the nature of the deception of Miss Fuller being different from the nature of the
00:18:07 different from the nature of the deception that you describe as an inherent part of your role as an undercover officer have you reflected on whether there's a difference between those two
00:18:22 deceptions so from my perspective um again um I was trying to explain this a couple of days earlier to from my perspective I can imagine feeling um equally agreed by the Betrayal of a close
00:18:31 close friend um
00:18:38 friend um regardless um of necessarily um whether it was a sexual relationship or otherwise so in your question have I reflected
00:18:43 reflected on uh the degree to which that was materially different um well I know because I've heard that from uh from the effect and the impact yes it clearly was
00:18:56 effect and the impact yes it clearly was but my articulation wasn't that this was um in any way intended or that indeed anyone should actually find out um that wasn't an excuse for what I did or
00:19:07 wasn't an excuse for what I did or expected to get away with it but um had had any of this been in my mind that eventually um Miss Fuller will find out um it just uh wouldn't have done it hm1 that sounds rather like I did it
00:19:26 it hm1 that sounds rather like I did it because I knew I could get away with it is that what you intended to convey no and I tried to actually subsume that into that previous is comment I know that I know that's how that sounds I'm just trying to convey the fact that um in terms
00:19:41 in terms of um any idea that this could result in um you know hurt and betrayal um my whole approach to this uh this operation was that no one should find out um
00:19:52 was that no one should find out um regardless of you know any suspicions and disappointment over lack of subsequent contact the whole environment of this operation was predicated on um arrival um a deployment and a
00:20:03 um arrival um a deployment and a successful extraction with no one being any of the wiser and that was absolutely part
00:20:14 part of um my ability to do this job with a view to no one actually being unduly hurt um by the subsequent Revelations that this was who I was but as I
00:20:37 that this was who I was but as I understand your evidence entering into a sexual relationship with Miss Fuller as opposed to a friendship formed no part of your operation it sat alongside it and was done you say for genuine emotional
00:20:45 emotional reasons is that right yes I mean that is that is what happened so there was no operational necessity to perpetrate that deceit on Miss Fuller was there there was no operational necessity at all no you
00:20:56 operational necessity at all no you understood didn't you that Miss Fuller was not in a position to make a fully informed choice about whether Matt Raina was was somebody she really wanted to enter into that sort of relationship with didn't you um I didn't think about it in that
00:21:09 you um I didn't think about it in that way any more than I thought about other intense friendships being um through the act of Deceit and therefore people doing it without sufficient knowledge as to whether they were forming friends with
00:21:26 whether they were forming friends with friendships with me even though on this occasion your deceit was procuring her consent to sexual intercourse um I don't think I was procuring a consent if you don't mind I just um it felt Mutual to me but there was a power imbalance
00:21:39 me but there was a power imbalance wasn't there hm1 you knew that you were a police officer and she didn't um well I that did not play out in my thinking whatsoever and in fact in terms of the power imbalance um I felt pretty inferior to
00:21:56 imbalance um I felt pretty inferior to her sense of standing self assuredness invincibility strength um surprised um you had any interest in me
00:22:07 whatsoever the invincibility and strength of a woman who just weeks earlier had been in such a state in terms of her mental health that she had attempted to take her own life is that your
00:22:17 your evidence well that event certainly took place there was um every indication that she'd come through that with the help of friends
00:22:31 friends um and did not appear to be in any way uh in a state of um depression or Suicidal
00:22:32 Suicidal Tendencies is your experience of life now hm1 looking back over many decades that those with depression serious
00:22:48 that those with depression serious enough that it leads them to contemplate or take action to uh end their life get over it in a matter of weeks I've I've had no involvement with that with that world that would allow me to comment either way on that
00:22:59 to comment either way on that can we have a look please at paragraph 481b of your witness statement at page 27 I think it will be
00:23:14 on 217 thank you um you were asked uh when you uh gave your witness statement whether you reported any aspect of the relationship with Miss Fuller to your
00:23:25 with Miss Fuller to your managers and you said uh this I am informed Bob Lambert of the initial
00:23:39 informed Bob Lambert of the initial Overture from Liz and Bob's response was that this was or may have been a test and there was only one way to pass
00:23:49 it I was asking you questions before lunch based on Miss Fuller's account which you seem to accept which was that on the very first night that the two of
00:24:00 on the very first night that the two of you kissed you also went on to stay over and have
00:24:01 and have sex at what point did you speak to Bob Lambert in the sequence of events before or after that night uh would have been after I think
00:24:17 night uh would have been after I think so by the time you spoke to him you had already entered orbe it in the early stages you had begun a sexual intimate relationship with Miss Fuller yes although the close
00:24:31 Fuller yes although the close association between the two of us um was known about but this is different isn't it this is you speaking to Bob Lambert about the possibility of a relationship with Miss Fuller a sexual and intimate relationship not just a friendship yes
00:24:48 relationship not just a friendship yes absolutely a a and do you maintain that you spoke to uh Bob Lambert about an initial Overture from
00:25:01 Lambert about an initial Overture from Miss Fuller even though you now accept that that first night involved sexual intercourse um I don't recall how it played out the chronology of it um what I can say for certain is that within a very short space of time
00:25:15 very short space of time um uh everyone knew about it as it were but everyone had known about um the close association between the two of us from which probably other things have already been inferred that that wasn't my question but now that you've mentioned it who is everyone in the
00:25:33 mentioned it who is everyone in the phrase everyone you about it um so there was um uh reporting from other sources um around the country on the close Association uh between myself um and Liz that's so I'm allowed to refer to us
00:25:45 refer to us um
00:25:52 and so can I just perhaps cut this short Everyone by everyone you meant within the SDS did you um yeah I don't I mean
00:26:07 the SDS did you um yeah I don't I mean yes um you know that sort of um if you like uh that sort of openly available story as it were um travels fast can I focus for now I'll come back to that question but Focus for now on what's described in your statement here
00:26:23 what's described in your statement here which is an early conversation with Bob Lambert about what's described as the initial Overture from Le how soon soon after that first night you spent with Miss Fuller did you speak to Bob
00:26:40 Lambert I think it would have been within days or uh within days as I remember um I don't have clear recollection and why did you speak to him at all about it what was your purpose in doing
00:26:51 purpose in doing so um I think just to um seek a view maybe uh needed to tell someone um there uh there would be if
00:27:04 someone um there uh there would be if there weren't already um knowledge of this uh coming to the office by other means within a few days of you spending
00:27:15 means within a few days of you spending a single night with Miss full um well I don't know about the few days I I yeah I can't comment on the timings of it um I I do know that that generally if I may there's
00:27:26 there's um you know there would have the office if you like environment and
00:27:37 the office if you like environment and culture um for receipt of this type of story um and this type of activity um was of
00:27:46 um well uh not authorization but indifference and that sort of generic um these things happen uh
00:27:55 happen uh was if you like to paraphrase the the a way of dealing with it I'm going to come on to ask you about the attitudes of your Managers generally to this topic what I want to focus on now
00:28:11 this topic what I want to focus on now please is the conversation that you had with Bob Lambert in this very early stage of your relationship with Miss Fuller you said in answer to my questions just a moment ago about why you spoke to Bob Lambert
00:28:25 ago about why you spoke to Bob Lambert or what your purpose was that you were seeking a view about what precisely were you seeking Bob Lambert's
00:28:38 view um well was it a view or was it um a conversation about something that had happened which you need to know about um I'd frame it in that way why would he need to know about it what was your thinking
00:28:47 thinking hm1 uh what was my thinking uh my thinking was that um uh the only real transparency uh I can adopt with anyone
00:29:02 transparency uh I can adopt with anyone at all which is my approach to the whole of that work was being transparent with the
00:29:06 the office did you appreciate that what you had done in having uh sex with Miss
00:29:17 had done in having uh sex with Miss Fuller might be regarded as uh I'll use a a broad phrase a Bad Thing by your managers when you approach Bob Lambert I um I didn't approach that conversation expecting that that view to be
00:29:28 be perent did you anticipate that Bob Lambert might tell you that you should cease immediately any relationship of
00:29:39 cease immediately any relationship of that nature I wasn't anticipating that no and what had led you to understand not to anticipate that sort of response um I think because of um his broader
00:29:50 um I think because of um his broader understanding um of the challenges of this type of work um and the possibility that
00:29:58 that uh these sorts of things um or the potential for these sorts of things um are there
00:30:06 are there um and how did you come to the opinion that Bob Lambert had a broader understanding of the challenges of this
00:30:21 understanding of the challenges of this type of work or the potential for these sorts of things to happen uh well he'd been an operator in the field himself did you know hm1 that not only
00:30:33 himself did you know hm1 that not only had he been an officer in the field but he had himself entered four times into sexual relationships of one kind or another with different women um I didn't know that at the time why was it Bob Lambert who you chose to speak to in
00:30:46 Lambert who you chose to speak to in this first instance um because he was the one with whom uh I'd had uh the longest relationship um he was the one that was involved in my uh part of the selection process um and was familiar
00:31:00 selection process um and was familiar with the field in which I was operating are you responsibility for it are you quite sure that it wasn't because he was known as an officer who had himself entered into relationships with women
00:31:11 entered into relationships with women undercover uh no most certainly wasn't and I didn't expect anyway that this would be anything other than uh then the subject of a wider conversation uh with his uh colleagues in the office given that your evidence is that
00:31:26 office given that your evidence is that you didn't anticipate that this would be viewed as as you having done anything wrong did you therefore openly share the fact that you had entered a sexual relationship with Miss Fuller with other managers and with other undercover
00:31:38 managers and with other undercover officers in the unit um not with other undercover officers no um why why not if it was nothing to be remarked upon um
00:31:50 it was nothing to be remarked upon um well I didn't I I wasn't saying it was nothing to be remarked upon it was um something really very tricky indeed I found it very tricky um I was deep ly conflicted by it um and this was
00:32:03 conflicted by it um and this was absolutely nobody's business other than a conversation with um the people responsible for my well-being and Welfare your witness statement suggests
00:32:15 Welfare your witness statement suggests that Robert Lambert's response was that this was or may have been a test what did you understand him to mean by the use of the term test um so there's one Theory
00:32:36 test um so there's one Theory um that uh to test someone's um Bonafide is um
00:32:41 is um that certain challenges would be put into the place to oust um spies informants undercover officers um it either could be for
00:32:53 officers um it either could be for example um um incitement to do something or it could be um sexual temptation
00:33:02 I didn't think it was by the way didn't think it was what a test so did you not explain to Bob
00:33:15 test so did you not explain to Bob Lambert no no no I'm I'm confident it's not a test this is a natural extension of our friendship to use words from earlier in your statement yeah I think it played out in a bit more of a discursive way than that um but I did
00:33:27 discursive way than that um but I did commit to a very a firm belief that I didn't believe it was a test and I I mean it might well have been I I don't know I didn't believe it was I don't believe it was not and you told Robert Lambert as much is that what you're saying
00:33:40 yes and what was his
00:33:48 reaction I think you just accepted that this was this was tricky
00:33:55 um and we were to um
00:34:06 the scenario was one in which he could see I was conflicted um and but this you know this is where we were so it's done now no advice about what to do in the
00:34:19 what to do in the future well it was a discussion about um I don't actually recall much of the discussion um other than I was operating in that gray area in which something was yeah neither sanctioned nor specifically condoned or
00:34:39 prescribed did Robert Lambert make it clear to you on that occasion that what you were doing was not
00:34:45 sanctioned um well he didn't use that language I mean I I knew that wasn't the case so
00:34:56 mean I I knew that wasn't the case so there's no if you like formal you are authorized uh to continue there's no such directive but there was no
00:35:04 um yeah the contrary wasn't the case either there was no instruction to um do anything other than manage so no suggestion that you should cease the
00:35:11 cease the relationship um correct when you spoke to Robert
00:35:27 correct when you spoke to Robert Lambert were you aware of whether he had seen your earlier report on Miss Fuller describing her depression and her uh suicide
00:35:31 suicide attempt um well I would have assumed with certainty that he had done and did the two of you discuss anything about whether or or rather the uh decision that you had made to enter
00:35:44 uh decision that you had made to enter into a relationship with Miss Fuller at that time in her life uh
00:35:51 life uh no given what you have said about how the conversation with Robert Lambert went when your witness statement says that he said there was only one way to pass the test what did that
00:36:03 mean yeah
00:36:13 um don't know whether I tried to simplify that I'm not I don't remember him
00:36:19 him actually putting it quite like that or um because I I'd already sort of rejected the suggestion it was a
00:36:24 it was a test um now whether was his um way of
00:36:35 test um now whether was his um way of dealing with it uh I don't know uh but it was a conversation that sort of petered out really I I with this is a tricky situation how are we going to manage it um I but it it's more discursive than a more
00:36:52 discursive than a more recognition um than a prescribed course of action where were you when you were having this conversation with uh Robert Lambert do you remember um well I would thought it was um would have been at one of the um the safe
00:37:03 have been at one of the um the safe houses but I can't I can't picture Here and Now us sitting in any particular room having them can you say whether it was just the two of you having the conversation um I think no I can't um it would have um it was likely to have been
00:37:19 would have um it was likely to have been um but it could easily have been with um uh the DCI hn
00:37:30 uh the DCI hn 86 um yes yes so it could have been h86 present along with Robert Lambert when you had this first conversation um it could have been um I just don't remember
00:37:41 could have been um I just don't remember in that very first one uh there being um anyone else I think you you do say it's in the paragraph of your witness statement that's on the screen um that the relationship was alluded to on a handful of occasions and you recall hn 86 saying something along the lines of these things happen so at
00:37:55 the lines of these things happen so at some point your evidence is that hn 86 came to know about the relationship do is that right um well I think um at some stage everyone in the office would have done and by everyone in the office do
00:38:11 done and by everyone in the office do you mean DCI Di and all the DS's that were there at the time
00:38:26 yes what precisely LED you to the conclusion that h86 knew of your relationship with m
00:38:32 follow um the degree to which it was being reported on by others and the degree to which it was being reported on by others came to be known to you
00:38:47 known to you how uh by being shown uh reports in which relationship was described by whom were they shown to you or by what method um
00:38:58 method um I think the usual the usual means of that the weekly meetings um intelligence reports were were brought out or they were alluded to
00:39:10 were alluded to verbally alluded to verbally by who by hn 86 yeah hn 86 or um or Rober
00:39:21 lbert and did you ever have any explicit conversation with h86 about your relationship with Miss Fuller
00:39:35 uh no uh not be on the this is happening It's
00:39:36 It's Tricky um but this is the nature of it why would you have a conversation it's happening It's Tricky but this is the nature of
00:39:48 nature of it if it were not about the relationship with Miss
00:39:49 with Miss Fuller um well I'm summarizing um a sort of discussion that took place over over the period of time of the
00:40:00 over over the period of time of the relationship with the office um what I'm trying to establish hm1 is what it is specifically if anything that causes you to conclude that h86 knew about the
00:40:13 to conclude that h86 knew about the relationship beyond what you've referred to which is the existence of other information describing it taking place well I mean um sort of implicit and explicit references to it um during um
00:40:29 explicit references to it um during um free flowing conversations uh between me and him over the time that we work together so there were explicit references between you and h86 to your relationship with Miss Fuller or yeah absolutely no absolutely I mean there weren't so much explicit as just
00:40:42 weren't so much explicit as just references to it I'm aware these are tricky uh these situations that's him speaking to you and saying that I'm summarizing yeah the sort of type of sentiment yes he would deal with this um
00:40:54 deal with this um with and in saying that was it clear to you that he knew that you were having a relationship with an identified individual namely Miss Fuller or
00:41:07 individual namely Miss Fuller or something else no it was uh it was beyond any doubt that he knew exactly U what was going on I mean I I didn't seek to concede it or camouflage it orisate
00:41:25 to concede it or camouflage it orisate it your witness statement suggests that he said something along the lines of these things happen are you confident that that's the sort of thing that hn 86 said to you yeah yes um yes literally and in sort of
00:41:39 um yes literally and in sort of style do you mean his style of speaking or his style of addressing these things or I think um on this particular one it was a understand what you're going
00:41:50 was a understand what you're going through sort of thing these things happen they're tricky um we are where we are um those weren't his exact words um but it this that's the sentiment and is that what you
00:42:04 the sentiment and is that what you understood his attitude generally to be to this topic as a result of your conversations with him um I took that to mean that he understood that this was a a gray area
00:42:18 gray area um uh I was in the thick of it as it were um there
00:42:27 was yeah was was lots to deal with here um but sort of these things happen um what's his
00:42:37 attitude the inquiry has obtained a witness statement from hn 86 in his capacity as the detective Chief Inspector of the unit and I'm going to ask that an extract be put up on the screen please ucpi 037
00:42:55 368 and can we start at page three of the extract please
00:43:02 B oh so you do have this you have it section B4 [Music]
00:43:13 3 can we start at page three paragraph 342
00:43:27 please this is what h86 has told the inquiry in his written statement hm1 I disagree with hm 1's inquiry witness statement paragraph 481 where He suggests that I was aware and said these things happen my reaction
00:43:38 and said these things happen my reaction would not have been as sanguin as that I did not know and would have been compelled to find out more detail if he had even hinted at an intimate
00:43:50 had even hinted at an intimate relationship in his cover identity these things happen was not the attitude in the SDS generally
00:44:02 is hn 86 correct I don't believe so
00:44:12 no do you say that these things happen bearing in mind that it's a shorthand for for something these things happen was the attitude of the SDS generally at the time that you
00:44:28 served um well I don't know if it was the attitude in SDS generally um this was all I can answer this um is with regards to what what we
00:44:39 this um is with regards to what what we are talking about here so in terms of my predicament um there was an acknowledgement of the difficulty um of you know what I was going through what this situation uh presented itself with with a sort of these thing happen type Aura um
00:45:02 approach all right can we take um that down please and look at page five of the extract of hn 86's statement page five paragraph 355 of that same reference
00:45:38 sorry I might need the page just slightly
00:45:43 before thank you um hn 86 has also said this hm1 um that you were recruited while he was a
00:45:55 was a manager and that when you started to prepare for his deployment quote I emphasized the Practical reasons why serious friendship should be avoided and the moral ethical and operational
00:46:06 operational imperative of avoiding Intimate Relationships so in other words he's saying that he advised you that you
00:46:19 saying that he advised you that you should avoid intimate relationships and indeed avoid serious friendships did he advise you to avoid Intimate
00:46:25 Intimate Relationships uh no was it ever
00:46:38 Relationships uh no was it ever described as an operational imperative to avoid in Intimate Relationships to you um soor I'm just reading it again um uh no that's
00:46:46 um yeah I don't recognize any of that at all was it ever suggested to you discussed with you that there might be moral Andor ethical reasons why you should avoid intimate relation
00:46:59 should avoid intimate relation relationships in your undercover role uh no I think um I mean I got there on my own on that one um but no no such um no such
00:47:12 such um no such explicit references um to intimate relationships in that way any implicit references about uh intimate relationships and moral or ethical
00:47:27 relationships and moral or ethical considerations connected to them well I think to begin with none of this was this was about as far from anything that I could possibly have envisaged uh least of all um uh had it as a remote
00:47:41 of all um uh had it as a remote possibility of a scenario I would end up in um uh
00:47:44 in um uh so this was uh these were alien if you like alien things well I mean you know almost of of course um of course the moral and the
00:47:57 course um of course the moral and the ethics and the um sort of the challenge that they present to all of this typee of work um is a challenge from day one and part of the selection process was on those um that were capable of making
00:48:11 on those um that were capable of making judgment calls uh that by and large got those got that articulation
00:48:21 right um but all I would add to that is um through every single operation um of every successful field officer that did something worthwhile and had success it was absolutely predicated um on a trusted relationship of some sort that
00:48:37 trusted relationship of some sort that was whether sexual or otherwise in most occasions not sexual it was certainly
00:48:45 intimate but not sexual absolutely no I can absolutely yes um in the vast majority of cases not to my knowledge when I first asked you about whether you were given uh whether you had any discussion about moral and ethical
00:48:56 discussion about moral and ethical aspects of entering into an intimate relationship you said something along
00:49:07 relationship you said something along the lines of I got there on my own what did you mean by that yeah so i' um um I took the view that um there was a job to be done um it was required to be done by people that
00:49:19 required to be done by people that thought about these things seriously um and not
00:49:20 and not recklessly um uh there was a requirement and people were carefully selected and I consider myself to be someone with a a strong moral compass that would make that adjudication
00:49:31 that adjudication properly
00:49:38 properly um that said um I ConEd that I'd taken the position of being working for the state to deceive people um and that was the sort of if you like the uh the
00:49:55 the sort of if you like the uh the anchor and the decision i' made to align myself with that if you like that part of the that part of the struggle um I admired these people most of them immensely um but I've taken a different route um in being part of the organization that was charged with
00:50:08 organization that was charged with thwarting the extreme aspects of their of their activity it didn't stop me admiring or having genuine feelings or being in utter admiration of that level
00:50:19 being in utter admiration of that level of devotion um uh and that that you know there in lies the the moral ethical uh I guess Dilemma on a daily basis of how you balance admiration and
00:50:33 basis of how you balance admiration and respect for the position you've taken um in life to work for the organization that was there to um protect others what about the moral and ethical
00:50:45 others what about the moral and ethical considerations specifically with regard to entering into an intimate relationship or sexual relationship what did you reflect in terms of that uh deeply
00:50:58 terms of that uh deeply conflicted can you can you explain what conflict you
00:51:09 conflict you felt um yes the conflict of what felt like um genuine and for me they were um genuine emotions um and the recognition that um this was a a
00:51:24 and the recognition that um this was a a situation that probably was best avoided but I hadn't avoided it best avoided by you I take it you mean well yes um yes I mean I I'm not cheapening the comparison but I do come back
00:51:43 back to um from what I hear from other people you you made the reference to you know um 40 years 30 years later um most Affairs are deeply regretted um but they're normally the product of a bad decision that doesn't undermine the intensity and genuiness of the emotion felt at the time but an
00:52:01 the emotion felt at the time but an affair is usually a term that is applied to a married person having a sexual relationship with somebody outside of that marriage isn't it um it is but I wasn't making that comparison I was making the comparison of the um the
00:52:21 making the comparison of the um the nature of it being deemed to have been a mistake um but driven by um driven by emotions uh that uh took someone to position they probably shouldn't have gone to but you were as you said you were working on behalf of the state that put you in a
00:52:34 behalf of the state that put you in a different category from most people who might go looking for or find themselves involved in a sexual relationship outside of their marriage you were in a different position weren't you yeah
00:52:46 different position weren't you yeah totally um it was a privileged position it was one um I felt um a deep sense of responsibility for so yes and do you
00:53:03 responsibility for so yes and do you consider that you abused that privilege by entering into a sexual relationship with Miss
00:53:06 with Miss Fuller um not that I abused it um because that for me um suggests um something intentional uh but I I do agree it was the wrong thing to
00:53:21 I I do agree it was the wrong thing to have done an unintentional abuse of the privilege that was bestowed upon you when you took up your role as an undercover officer on behalf of the state I it was a mistake you
00:53:32 state I it was a mistake you that um I find the word abuse um tricky um I do concede mistake is it because Adit mistake even do you do you looking back do you
00:53:45 even do you do you looking back do you consider that your behavior in entering into the sexual relationship with Miss Fuller is
00:53:48 Fuller is um worthy of
00:54:01 criticism um I would you would you say that it would be fair to criticize you for your decision to enter into and continue that relationship um I can see how people think it was the wrong thing to have
00:54:16 think it was the wrong thing to have done if we look at a different paragraph from this extract of hn 86's statement paragraph 334 page one of the extract
00:54:40 he says that in the course of making this statement I have learned that some uos did have sexual relationships with activists and other members of the public in their cover identities while I was a manager in the SDS if I had been asked at the time my view would have been the same as it is now these were
00:54:57 been the same as it is now these were serious betrayals of the trust reposed in them and constituted misconduct do you consider that what you did constituted misconduct hm1 no no I consider it was a wrong thing to have
00:55:08 consider it was a wrong thing to have done um I I do accept that and why then in your view was it wrong but not misconduct um I think this is um the
00:55:20 misconduct um I think this is um the work that I uh that was I've been asked to do that was played right um to the heart of this nature of
00:55:28 nature of um of
00:55:32 um of work um and the gray area that surrounded it
00:55:39 it uh I think prevents me going to the full hog and saying it was misconduct i' absolutely admit it was a wrong thing to have done which
00:55:51 have done which uh and I think yeah when I read sorry go on no I didn't mean to interrupt you um well I just just reading that um paragraph that you put up um forgive me was that by 86 yeah
00:55:59 86 yeah um I
00:56:05 um I um I do have trouble with that what does that mean do you think h86 in what he's saying there does not represent his true position well um it's a Pity um he couldn't have
00:56:19 um it's a Pity um he couldn't have turned up to be perhaps questioned about it um I don't his management uh will be the subject of consideration in the next Tran of this inqu so at the moment we have only a written statement from him sure okay
00:56:32 statement from him sure okay thanks what what would you say if he were here in terms of questions for him on the back of this paragraph um I'd um I'd have just been
00:56:47 paragraph um I'd um I'd have just been um appealing to a little bit more of um his
00:56:51 his acknowledgment um of his full oversight and knowledge of everything that went on on the squad under his Reign because it was a very open
00:57:04 open transparent um unit where a whole range of
00:57:04 of challenging um aspects to everyone's operation was something he was he made a point
00:57:10 point of getting to know about and that included relationships entered into not just by you sexual relationships but by other officers who served alongside you
00:57:25 other officers who served alongside you is that is that right well all I can say specifically about me um I know for certain video not was it generally known that there were other officers serving alongside you who were conducting sexual
00:57:40 you who were conducting sexual relationships so to take an example hn 78 Trevor Morris the inquiries heard from two women one B with whom he conducted a relationship that lasted some time and a second Jenny with who he had a close friendship which resulted in a night when they had sex together was
00:57:55 a night when they had sex together was that generally known about on the no and it's wasn't known to me when I was in the field I'll come back to some of the later officers later on in my questioning of Uhm one for now can we go back please just to the conversation
00:58:10 back please just to the conversation with Lambert that you had early on just one or two more questions about that please did Robert Lambert express to you any concern about the impact on Denise
00:58:24 any concern about the impact on Denise Fuller of the relationship that you were entering into with her no did you consider the impact that the Rel relationship might have on Denise Fuller given that you weren't who you told her you were
00:58:42 um no I and I I appreciate how when I answer in this way it sounds a bit um um as if I was doing it with a view to trying to get away with it but my mindset was that um Liz would would
00:58:56 mindset was that um Liz would would would never find out there was nothing to know um while we were um while we were having while we engaged in this type of activity in this this level of
00:59:12 intimacy um when I asked you earlier about um Robert Lambert's suggestion that this might be a test um and I asked you what you understood um by that uh you gave um one part of your answer was that it might be
00:59:27 part of your answer was that it might be a test to see if you really were who you said you were I'm paraphrasing and the second was that it might be um As I understood it a suggestion that it was a woman who was s looking to engage you in a sexual relationship so motivated by
00:59:41 a sexual relationship so motivated by the woman was there any sense on the SDs that as an undercover officer you might face um women who you'd have to somehow
00:59:55 avoid
02:03:50 e e
02:04:46 yes thank you hm1 I want to ask you please about a particular episode or incident in during your relationship with Miss Fuller that she has given
02:05:00 with Miss Fuller that she has given evidence about um she has described a an episode or or An Occurrence um that she says you were involved in when her cat um died and it caused her to spend um a few days in her room with the dead cat do you recall an incident along those
02:05:16 do you recall an incident along those lines yes and her account of it is that she didn't answer when you came to the door so you climbed the wall and got in
02:05:34 door so you climbed the wall and got in through her bedroom window to check she was okay do you recall doing that yes and you then buried her cat for her yes it certainly helped her why did you do that why did you why did you climb the wall when she didn't come to the
02:05:45 wall when she didn't come to the door um either because someone had told me um or she'd make clear that um um something wasn't quite right and she was in some some sort of distress and this was some this wasn't right at the beginning of your
02:05:56 right at the beginning of your relationship this was once you were already together is wasn't it um I think so and so although when I asked you
02:06:07 so and so although when I asked you questions earlier you said that far from the um attempt to take her own life causing you to consider that she was vulnerable she seemed um resilient in
02:06:19 vulnerable she seemed um resilient in fact this was another example of when she was um distressed um yeah this was a yeah absolutely yeah did you have some genuine concern for her well-being that caused you to climb the wall to gain access to her um yeah
02:06:36 the wall to gain access to her um yeah um clearly something was not quite right yeah um I I can't remember whether one of her friends had told me that um her cat had died and I knew how much her cat had meant to her um or whether I found
02:06:52 had meant to her um or whether I found out during the attempts to uh work out why she wasn't answering but nonetheless you perceived that she may well have been in a significant amount of distress during this period yeah I think I got to know
02:07:07 this period yeah I think I got to know quite early on I can't remember who told me that it was um she was very upset um over the death of a
02:07:15 c do you want to uh reconsider at all your earlier answers that you didn't perceive Miss Fuller to be an individual with significant
02:07:34 vulnerabilities um no I don't wish to resisit that thank you I mean this was a specific um bement um linked to something very specific uh which I got the impression she myself and friends helped to get through together but not everybody who cat
02:07:54 together but not everybody who cat dies um ends up spending 3 days um upset in the room with the cat do they that's an indicator that she was perhaps more upset than the average person might be by by an event like
02:08:06 by by an event like that um but knew she was deeply upset about it in her case her cat meant a great deal to her you maintain that you didn't perceive her as somebody who was particularly
02:08:24 particularly vulnerable um not out of the ordinary no but um that's different from accepting that um the a c had caused um a great deal of
02:08:30 deal of sadness can I revisit with you briefly an aspect of your account of telling Robert
02:08:31 Robert Lambert at the very early stage of your relationship with Miss Fuller um that it had begun the conversation do you remember we looked at your witness
02:08:48 remember we looked at your witness statement when you suggested he told you perhaps it was some sort of test yes so that would have been at the very beginning of the relationship is that fair I think so yes the reports
02:09:06 is that fair I think so yes the reports that we looked at um earlier in terms of dates indicated that Miss Fuller moved address around the middle of May of 1993 and you accepted that her recollection that the relationship started uh within a small number of weeks after that was likely to be
02:09:17 weeks after that was likely to be accurate do you remember yeah I'm not contesting that at all we know from um the documentation that the inquiry has gathered that Robert Lambert did not become the
02:09:28 Robert Lambert did not become the detective inspector in the SDS until October of
02:09:36 1993 could it be either that you are mistaken when you recall your first conversation about the relationship being with Robert Lambert from amongst the managers or could it be that you didn't have a conversation with any of
02:09:49 didn't have a conversation with any of the managers until sometime in October or later in 1993 um yeah so it is it's totally feasible um I'm mistaken on the dates um I think um I do remember
02:10:02 um I do remember maintaining uh a relationship with Robert Lambert um as my sort of mentor and colleague uh at various stages um of
02:10:15 and colleague uh at various stages um of his Association and non-association with the office so um I can't account for that I might have been mistaken in my timings and but this
02:10:27 timings and but this uh as to when and to whom I told but I certainly remember conversation with Robert can I just explore what the options might be so he was not in post as detective inspector in around May June of
02:10:42 inspector in around May June of 1993 so the options are either that you spoke to him but he wasn't yet the detective inspector of the unit or that you spoke to his predecessor detective inspector hn 67 at around the time the relationship began began or that the dates of the
02:10:56 began or that the dates of the relationship beginning are not as Miss Fuller recalls them are you able to assist us as to whether one of those three is more likely the correct scenario
02:11:09 scenario um well I do remember speaking um certainly
02:11:14 certainly to Bob Lambert um in connection with this regardless of where he was uh that's my recollection and when you spoke to him are you confident that it was at the very outset of the relationship with Miss Fuller well it
02:11:34 relationship with Miss Fuller well it was it reasonably soon after um I can't put a Time on it okay not as much as perhaps four to five months after um no certainly not did you do you recall speaking with
02:11:45 not did you do you recall speaking with hn 67 the detective inspector in post at the time the relationship began
02:11:55 uh no I don't recall doing that are you able to assist us as to whether hn 67 uh was aware to the best of your understanding of your relationship with Miss
02:12:04 Miss Fuller
02:12:11 Fuller um well I I I must assume he was um because of the um reporting on my relationship from other sources that was circulating
02:12:24 can I ask that we put up um on the screen
02:12:25 screen MPS
02:12:31 MPS 0739 357 that's your b16a
02:12:39 sir and hm1 the context to this this is a report not um understood by the inquiry to be a report emanating from the SDS but rather special Branch um more generally dated the 1st of June of 199
02:12:55 of June of 199 three and so you understand the inquiry has looked um at Miss Fuller's uh file
02:13:09 has looked um at Miss Fuller's uh file held by special Branch to see whether it can locate it's able to locate um other special Branch intelligence reports uh commenting on you and Miss Fuller uh of the type that you described that would have given your managers an understanding that you were in a relationship together and this is the
02:13:25 relationship together and this is the sole example that the inquiry has found there um which uh appears to Bear any relation to this topic so you see it's a report uh dealing with a a Bramley
02:13:37 report uh dealing with a a Bramley Animal Defense group March and rally on the 15th of May of 1993 and the connection between you and Miss Fuller comes only in paragraph 3
02:13:49 Miss Fuller comes only in paragraph 3 where it's described that two vehicles were seen entering and their occupants including Liz Fuller attended the rally and one of the vehicles at little Roman numeral one is
02:14:02 vehicles at little Roman numeral one is your cover vehicle with your cover name there do you see yes are you talking about this sort of intelligence when you refer to intelligence from which your
02:14:15 refer to intelligence from which your managers would have understood there was a relationship or are you suggesting there was something more explicit I don't want you to give specifics as to
02:14:27 don't want you to give specifics as to what sort of information but was it more explicit than this or is this the sort of thing you're referring to no I'm referring to something explicit on how many occasions again please don't be specific as to the nature of it but on how many occasions did you become aware of
02:14:39 occasions did you become aware of reference explicit references to your relationship with Miss Fuller coming up in uh intelligence such that your managers would have been uh become aware of it
02:14:53 of it um I don't know but I mean once it's known once um uh it's it's known it's known permanently as it were um
02:15:09 permanently as it were um and um other under officers um operating um during that time uh would have had knowledge of the close Association which um again be careful with names please check the cipher list
02:15:21 with names please check the cipher list before you use anybody's name if you're not confident for example unless it's koh's or John dyes but which other undercover officers operating during the time you had a relationship would have known um I can't remember his specific
02:15:34 known um I can't remember his specific timing but um so please just be Andrew CO's yes that's the one I know I can mention um is a was aware of the close
02:15:50 Association and how confident are you that he was aware that you were in not you were not just having a friendship with Miss but you were having a relationship of a more intimate nature
02:15:56 nature um well because everyone um on the London scene and further a knew about it and Andrew Kohl's in particular anything specific to him or simply
02:16:08 anything specific to him or simply because he was part of that scene well not specific to him no but um as someone that would have was part of the unit being aware we know that hn 26 cover
02:16:20 being aware we know that hn 26 cover name Christine green followed you into to the field and that there was some overlap between the two of you although she didn't deploy until towards the end of
02:16:28 of 1994 would she have become aware from being on the scene that you and Denise Fuller were in a relationship or had been in a relationship if she found out later um I don't
02:16:46 know were there any other um undercover officers around at the time other than Andrew Kohl's who um as far as you were concerned were aware of your
02:16:57 concerned were aware of your relationship with Denise Fuller not what I was aware of
02:17:06 no in your witness statement you said it's paragraph 481 that you thought the detective sergeants in the back office would have known about it because they would have been seeing the same intelligence reporting that you've
02:17:17 intelligence reporting that you've referred to uh as mentioning you yours and Denise Fuller's relationship uh would those who were those detective sergeants I'll I'll um I'll read out who was in post uh detective uh Sergeant Webb was imp post
02:17:31 detective uh Sergeant Webb was imp post from the summer of 1993 until the end of your
02:17:34 your deployment and detective Sergeant mckintosh
02:17:41 mckintosh also do you mean to refer to those two individuals um yes they were there during that time would have been aware and you base that uh assertion on them having access to the intelligence that you've referred to is that
02:17:55 that you've referred to is that right um or more um no I think not just that but the fact that other officers knew about this I say once it's known um it quickly becomes known um and the
02:18:07 it quickly becomes known um and the office quite rightly provided itself on being aware of what everyone was up to uh and involved with and the challenges so uh there was you know there was no attempt to hide it from the office or
02:18:21 attempt to hide it from the office or make the office you know aware that this was going on um so everyone would have been aware as part of the collective um if you like duty of care and supervision of everything going on in the
02:18:34 in the field did you discuss it explicitly with either detective Sergeant Webb or detective Sergeant mckintosh
02:18:44 no can I ask you please about the end of um your relationship with Miss Fuller um she is confident that when she started University which was in the Autumn of
02:18:54 Autumn of 1994 the two of you were still in a relationship do you recall still being in a relationship with her at that time uh yes
02:19:11 possibly before I move to the next report I'm told we need to uh stop streaming to YouTube
02:19:19 please
02:23:19 e e
02:24:01 are you suggesting that she had met somebody else already when you had that conversation or simply that it happened soon after
02:24:13 soon after um I think she told me she'd met someone else she's given evidence to this inquiry that a few weeks after that uh discussion between the two of you you called her saying that you felt
02:24:30 called her saying that you felt depressed and that you'd been drinking wine straight from the bottle because you felt distraught about the breakup did you call her either because genuinely you felt distraught about the breakup or giving her that
02:24:41 her that impression um yeah I do remember phoning her um I certainly didn't allude to drinking um I did um I did say it was a shame um accepted but could we meet
02:24:58 up and why did you do that was it because you genuinely had those feelings or because you were furthering your cover as Matt rer um no I genely had those feelings um I missed her
02:25:09 those feelings um I missed her company did you tell her that you were feeling depressed about it well um I told her that um I was sorry we'd split up
02:25:28 in doing this did you give consideration to how Miss Fuller might feel being told that you were regretful about the breakup of the relationship given that the whole thing was part and parcel of the deceit of your
02:25:42 the deceit of your deployment uh no um I took the view that um she was we to be content with the new life she'd found with someone else
02:25:57 someone else um and um and appeared to be happy with it and that was before you met up or afterwards that you came to that
02:26:08 conclusion well I think uh during and after uh the session yeah when you made the call to her telling her uh that it was a shame and that you wanted to meet up what thought did you give at that stage about the impact on Miss Fuller of your actions
02:26:20 your actions [Music]
02:26:27 um well I thought it was important um that she knew how I felt how disappointed I was uh we couldn't still be friends uh but but why was that important hm1 when you were always going to leave because in reality you were
02:26:44 to leave because in reality you were simply an undercover officer well it was important um and that's how I felt and that's why I did it so you agree that the two of you met she record PA's meeting in a small bar in the West End
02:26:56 in the West End somewhere does that ring any bells with you um yeah no idea where it was um it was certainly yeah in a bar of some sort and her evidence is that when you met
02:27:08 and her evidence is that when you met you suggested making another go of the relationship well I don't remember saying that it was clear that that was um that was not on the card in any case what was the purpose of meeting up to
02:27:19 what was the purpose of meeting up to tell her that you thought it was a shame that the two of you had broken up if it was not at least in part to see whether there was a chance at rekindling the relationship don't know hadn't really thought it through um I was Keen at
02:27:33 thought it through um I was Keen at least maybe that um we could um you go back to where we were uh prior to the relationship yeah so making another go of
02:27:47 of it um not necessar no that was well and truly over I knew that um from the way um she described how she'd moved [Music]
02:27:51 [Music] on her evidence is that it was at that meeting that she told you she'd met somebody else and that you didn't know before from her might that be right um I my recollection is that when
02:28:04 right um I my recollection is that when I specifically asked her whether it was anyone else um prior to that um she said she said there was that's my recollection and she described your
02:28:16 recollection and she described your reaction to finding out that there was somebody else except you don't necessarily agree when that happened happened but she described you as seeming
02:28:23 seeming frustrated is that an accurate description of your feelings uh
02:28:36 yeah and was that because you had hoped that you could keep the relationship going until the end of your undercover deployment um no I knew that was um um uh was not on the cards I mean you
02:28:52 um uh was not on the cards I mean you there a quite clear that um I was not exciting um quite boring and um it had run its course but before that had you thought you might be able to keep the relationship going until the
02:29:08 to keep the relationship going until the end of your deployment no why not well I hadn't given it that degree of thought either way um but I didn't for a moment think it would last that that length of time but it it wasn't a conscious stream of
02:29:17 of thinking in your witness statement you described the relationship giving you a sense of security and validation were you concerned about losing that sense of security and
02:29:30 losing that sense of security and validation When Miss Fuller broke off the
02:29:35 the relationship um no not at all um because I um I didn't seek to conceal my disappointment to others um about how disappointed I was with that so that was
02:29:48 disappointed I was with that so that was part of the process um again it all felt quite real for me
02:30:03 in your uh real life as hn1 deployed undercover and conflicted about having entered into a relationship was it not in your better interests and Miss Fuller's better interest
02:30:16 interest perhaps to have the relationship appear to break off naturally rather than to try to carry it on for example um well in that sense it did break off naturally um with
02:30:26 with um Liz making it clear um the reasons for it so that felt pretty definitive to
02:30:43 me Miss Fuller's evidence is that the conversation the meeting that the two of you had prompted by your request left her feeling guilty did it cross your mind that if you expressed
02:30:55 you expressed uh your disappointment at the ending of the relationship you might leave her with feelings of guilt and responsibility towards you uh no I didn't think it through him that
02:31:11 didn't think it through him that way and are you quite uh sure that when you met her you were not at least in part attempting to rekindle the relationship with her um no I mean it was made so clear that even you know even in my mind had I been attempting that there was absolutely no opportunity for for doing
02:31:34 that in your witness statement paragraph 471 of the ending of the relationship or the aftermath you say this I remember being around the animal rights scene with Liz still there and dealing with the Fallout from the end of the
02:31:45 the Fallout from the end of the relationship other people were sorry it had
02:31:50 ended what did you mean by dealing with the Fallout from the end of the
02:31:58 relationship um well my Fallout was um being being upset by
02:32:10 it and when you say other people were sorry it had had ended to whom are you referring um I can't remember specifically I remember um CLA being very
02:32:20 very sympathetic is that CLA hrth yes and did you give CLA hildr the impression that you were sorry that the relationship had ended um yes absolutely didn't didn't
02:32:34 ended um yes absolutely didn't didn't seek to conceal it it was all yeah that was absolutely how I was
02:32:42 feeling were you genuinely sorry that the relationship had ended
02:32:48 yes when you made your witness statement to this inquiry you made no mention of calling Miss Fuller after she had broken off the relationship and meeting up with her to
02:33:00 relationship and meeting up with her to discuss that it was a shame or that you were disappointed that the relationship had
02:33:05 had ended why did you not mention it um well it was so definitively at an end uh
02:33:14 end uh that
02:33:19 that um it was um you know there was the unambiguous closure um as far as Liz was concerned um and in the way that and the
02:33:30 um and in the way that and the explanation for it um pretty um you know refreshingly brutal I guess this meeting was a continuation in a sense wasn't it of the ending of the relationship did you not think it's
02:33:42 relationship did you not think it's significant enough to mention in your statement to the inquiry um it was well and truly over um by the time I had that meeting it was a continuation of your relationship in the sense of a
02:33:54 relationship in the sense of a friendship at the very least wasn't it yeah I mean we were still going to come across each other um at
02:34:08 [Music] events could I ask please that we um
02:34:19 events could I ask please that we um look at some more reporting for which we need to turn off the YouTube uh stream again please
02:46:47 e e
02:47:34 screen at this hm1 is a letter provided to the inquiry by Mr shepher Jeff Shephard he's got the uh the envelope which indicates that he was written to whilst he was in Her Majesty's prison
02:47:47 whilst he was in Her Majesty's prison Park Hurst um as it was on the aisle of white
02:47:49 white uh inglatera is written there in the Spanish form and the stamp uh indicates it coming from Argentina that's one of the locations which um you were as Matt
02:48:06 the locations which um you were as Matt Raina said to have been going to as part of your withdrawal isn't it yes and we see Matt is written on it and if we go over to see the body of the letter please on page one uh we see that Matt
02:48:20 please on page one uh we see that Matt Raina and then an address in mendosa in Argentina is recorded at the top 14th of February
02:48:33 February 1998 so this is over a year after you had left the field isn't it yes and um I want to ask you
02:48:45 yes and um I want to ask you specifically about page four please of the letter page four of the internal document
02:48:54 [Music] um
02:48:55 um and yeah if we could it's the top half if we could zoom in on see the top half because it's quite difficult to read so I want to pick up right at the end of
02:49:12 I want to pick up right at the end of the first line hm1 I often imagine what the good times that you me privacy and Liz used to have so I I often imagine
02:49:23 Liz used to have so I I often imagine the good times that youi privacy and Liz used to have and I sometimes picture us all together out here walking in the Hills I've still got I've still got the postcard you sent me from the Lake District because every time I read it it makes me chuckle you
02:49:34 time I read it it makes me chuckle you simply wrote on the back Dear Matt it's Bleak see you soon in fact I can honestly say Jeff that I've uh never a day goes by without me thinking about
02:49:48 day goes by without me thinking about both you and Liz and although it's quite conceivable that you and I will meet up some
02:49:52 some time I don't think I can hope to see Liz again she hasn't written to me once since I left England and I wish I could shake off
02:50:03 shake off this daily feeling that I still miss her after all this
02:50:10 time uh anyway there is no need for you to bother her with my moaning just say hello to her will you the next time you're in contact
02:50:26 according to your evidence Miss Fuller had broken off the relationship with you sometime probably in the early part of 1995 so 3 years before this letter was sent to Jeff Shephard in
02:50:40 prison why were you saying to Mr shepher uh I don't think I can hope to see Liz again she hasn't written to me once since I left England and I can't can't shake off a feeling that I still miss her after all this
02:51:00 time um is a is a question why I wrote that yes why did you write those things about Miss Fuller in this letter
02:51:06 letter um well this was um this is a personal letter from me um to Jeff um reflecting um on you the so-called happy times
02:51:16 times together um and giving a picture of um missing one you know missing missing our company our Collective
02:51:28 missing our company our Collective company and specifically her company um this was a letter to someone with whom I'd had a close friendship and was yeah Keen to Keen for them to know I hadn't forgotten them but your friendship with both of
02:51:48 them but your friendship with both of them was in the guise of Matthew Raina wasn't it and by February of 1988 you were firmly back in the life of hm1 weren't you um no this was part of a longer term um exit
02:52:01 term um exit strategy uh with a view to um as we spoke about earlier the exit being something real so are you saying that
02:52:14 something real so are you saying that this was a pretense when you wrote it or that it was reflecting genuine feelings um well um to the degree that um I'm allowed to say they were genuine um uh because that gets contested every
02:52:29 um uh because that gets contested every time I say it um yes they were it was a it was a letter that was easy to write so even after more than 12 months out of the
02:52:42 after more than 12 months out of the field you were still writing these words uh with some level of genuiness is that is that your evidence well there's an element of that was also an element of it being part of uh um yeah a sort of a heartfelt um bearing of one soul to
02:52:57 heartfelt um bearing of one soul to someone with whom um I'd had a long-term relationship and to which the exit strategy was designed to reassure them
02:53:10 strategy was designed to reassure them um uh you know but even though I wasn't around um we would we would remain on good
02:53:14 good terms so a combination of maintaining your
02:53:15 your cover or ensuring that it was not breached after you withdrew from the field and some genuine feeling is that what it amounts to yeah I'd say so yeah there was an element of as with all the
02:53:28 there was an element of as with all the friendships throughout whole of my time there there was that there was that combination Why did um maintaining the fiction in regard to your relationship with Miss Fuller need to continue into
02:53:42 with Miss Fuller need to continue into 1998 when your relationship had broken off in the early part of 1995 so around three years before um well if I was going to write to Jeff at all um uh it would be
02:53:56 to Jeff at all um uh it would be odd uh not to include something um about Liz with whom he knew I had a very close
02:54:12 Liz with whom he knew I had a very close relationship um and I could have written in a different way but it was uh for me a letter that was credible convincing and designed to cheer
02:54:19 Jeff Miss Mr Shephard and Miss Fuller have given evidence that you uh never really went out together as a forsome with the individual whose name is reducted for privacy and they consider
02:54:38 reducted for privacy and they consider that you were overplaying that aspect of things in this letter do you agree with that um yeah I do agree um and I think in the reference to the four I was talking about how I conjured up that scene not that we did it
02:54:53 but given that the four of you were not particularly close in that way at the time was it not rather odd to be suggesting that you were imagining all hanging out together years afterwards well I think in in any combination of the for us we were
02:55:04 the for us we were close so you were close to Mr Shephard Mr Shephard was close to Miss Fuller etc
02:55:15 Mr Shephard was close to Miss Fuller etc etc is that what you're getting out with that answer yes yes and indeed with the other person [Music]
02:55:24 [Music] can I turn back now that we have um explored in more detail uh the relationship that you had with Miss Fuller um briefly some of the topics that I asked you about at the outset on
02:55:38 that I asked you about at the outset on Wednesday because when I was asking you for example about your various earlier accounts um you gave the impression that it would be clearer to answer once you'd had a chance to explain the
02:55:50 had a chance to explain the relationship uh one of the things you said uh or you addressed on Wednesday or I asked you about was the apology on
02:56:01 I asked you about was the apology on behalf of the commissioner that had been advanced in this tranch of this inquiry and your response uh included saying that some of the adjectives used in the
02:56:14 in the apology you contested because you didn't think they applied to you and you still don't and you said you would have used a different set of words than the commissioner
02:56:26 commissioner used I've been asked to clarify uh with you whether or not you and I were referring to the same apology do you follow to make clear your evidence on that okay yes so I'm going to read to
02:56:40 that okay yes so I'm going to read to you the text from the opening speech of the commissioner in this part of the inquiry and then ask you whether you align yourself specifically with that do you follow yes so I'm reading from paragraph 24 first uh in which the
02:56:54 paragraph 24 first uh in which the commissioner described uh the deceitful relationships of officers uh with women as quote a gross violation of the
02:57:06 as quote a gross violation of the women's privacy and human rights abusive deceitful manipulative and wrong the Metropolitan Police Service apologizes again unreservedly to the women whose lives have been and continue to be
02:57:21 lives have been and continue to be affected the Metropolitan Police Service also apologizes to the wives partners and families who have also been harmed by the misconduct of the undercover
02:57:33 by the misconduct of the undercover officers and the failure by the SS's managers and senior special Branch management to prevent that misconduct and from paragraph 29 reviews have demonstrated that sexism and misogyny continue to be widespread and
02:57:46 misogyny continue to be widespread and enduring features of the culture within the Metropolitan Police Earth the prevalence of sexual misconduct on the part of SDS officers in the chanch 2 period the general disregard for the
02:57:58 period the general disregard for the personal autonomy and dignity of the women affected together with the inaction or indifference of their managers in response is a clear and
02:58:11 managers in response is a clear and acute manifestation of that culture for which the Metropolitan Police Service unreservedly
02:58:21 apologizes do you um align yourself with first of all the broad apology and the descriptions applied to the nature of the relationships in the first paragraph that I read out um well I I've already ConEd that it
02:58:34 out um well I I've already ConEd that it was um it was wrong uh to have done that do you concede that it was a gross violation of Miss Fuller's privacy and human rights to enter into a deceitful relationship with
02:58:47 relationship with her um well I think if I did agree with that um
02:58:49 that um uh it would have been all of those things as far as the intimacy of the Friendship we had
02:58:57 had um
02:59:02 um I'm I don't know what I think about this um I'm just
02:59:16 um I mean if that's how Liz feels um uh then that would have a bearing I guess on
02:59:20 on how I felt about it but in terms of the dignity um and the respect and the
02:59:31 the dignity um and the respect and the misogyny and um the sort of the throwing of the kitchen sink at this um I do not align myself with any of those descriptors at all and yes it was the wrong thing to have done um and I you know deeply
02:59:44 know deeply regret um any of this um resulting uh in the hurt uh that has been caused but what you know what happened happened um and within the confines of what
02:59:58 um and within the confines of what happened uh I was as respectful and as genuine and as real um as I could have been um because that's how it felt um there was nothing in my view that was um abusive
03:00:09 in my view that was um abusive manipulative planned um in the sense that some of this apology suggests uh uh
03:00:22 that some of this apology suggests uh uh was was the case I think we just have to look at this particular my particular scenario um on the basis of how I've indicated I got there what I then dealt with um and how it played out do you consider that your situation is
03:00:34 consider that your situation is different from other undercover officers who had relationships with women in some way so I think every single one of them
03:00:46 way so I think every single one of them is different in terms of motivation how it happened every single one of your questions um I think would have uh elicited a different
03:01:01 have uh elicited a different response um all I can tell you is uh for me it was uh deception aside uh but it but it felt real it took its course um and I was respectful of it as possible and I think I mean from what
03:01:16 possible and I think I mean from what I've heard again deception aside I don't think it was any sort of contesting of the fact that I was fundamentally decent um and compassionate and caring during
03:01:25 during it whether or not you set out to or plan to enter the relationship do you not agree that entering into it was abusive manipulative as well as
03:01:39 manipulative as well as wrong um I I don't believe it was manipulative because I um I
03:01:41 I um I wasn't I didn't intend to be I didn't plan to be I didn't consider what I was doing as being uh manipulative I mean you know I I do I do contest it was wrong I sorry I don't contest I Bigg I
03:01:52 wrong I sorry I don't contest I Bigg I agree that it was wrong I've said that several times um I made a bad call um I should have not
03:02:00 not um allowed my emotions and the intensity of what I was feeling um to have got the better of me but they did such was what I
03:02:10 I felt a few moments ago when I was asking you if you aligned yourself with some of that wording you said Liz feels that way I'm going to quote to you from some of
03:02:26 I'm going to quote to you from some of what Miss Fuller told the inquiry this week when she gave evidence about the impact on her she said it's really really hard to reconcile this man which she meant Matt rer with this man meaning you the real hm1 and it's just left me
03:02:38 you the real hm1 and it's just left me confused bewildered my self-esteem has taken a knock and I'm really careful I don't really trust anybody 100%
03:02:55 anymore do you want to add anything else reflecting on how she has described the impact upon her um well yeah it's very upsetting to hear but I do come back to the fact that um V was
03:03:14 um V was never intended meant or understood uh that this would ever be an outcome um this type of disclosure um it was um
03:03:20 was um yeah um that's that's all I can say in terms
03:03:26 terms of uh reconciling the difference between um that person um it was just I say uh before anyone else gets there yes it was deceitful because by
03:03:37 there yes it was deceitful because by definition um I wasn't who I purported to be if you take that out of it the this on my part on my part the sentiment the
03:03:49 the feeling um and the intensity of my feelings for is were absolutely genuine do you align yourself with the apology that the commissioner has made to the wives of undercover officers
03:04:01 to the wives of undercover officers specifically to your own wife at the
03:04:12 time um well we've dealt with that in our own way um and um that apology is not
03:04:17 required I'm talking about my specific case
03:04:47 yes do you accept um personal responsibility for the relationship for entering into and continuing the relationship
03:04:50 um
03:04:59 yes have you to date apologized directly to Miss
03:05:01 to Miss Fuller well I think I have done haven't I um I regret what happened and I regret that how this process um and her coming to know of something which in my opinion um didn't
03:05:20 something which in my opinion um didn't need to know about um has has played out uh all I can offer is that as far as I was
03:05:25 was concerned um I was not hiding how I felt or masquerading or pretending correct me if I'm wrong hm1 but what you seem to be saying repeatedly is that the harm here is that it was disclosed that it was found out
03:05:42 it was disclosed that it was found out rather than your conduct for which you were
03:05:47 were responsible is that how you feel no it's not how I felt I really I know every time I say this we can get back to that that crude inference um with respect um I mean all I'm saying is um this was
03:06:02 I mean all I'm saying is um this was done with a view to um the outcome of this not being the hurt um and the
03:06:13 this not being the hurt um and the discovery and the finding out um it was um well it was the whole operation um the friendships included um I embarked on with a view to um entry building friendships um and
03:06:25 um entry building friendships um and extraction and moving on um with people being number wiser even if they suspected as opposed to having um uh the
03:06:35 confirmation I want to return then finally on the topic of your relationship with Miss Fuller to the accounts you gave prior to your inquiry witness statement now that you've had
03:06:47 witness statement now that you've had the chance to answer questions about the relationship itself I asked you first of all about an account you gave to officers from
03:07:01 account you gave to officers from operation Hearn in 2014 do you remember me asking you about that yes and you understood that that was a police investigation didn't you when they spoke to you yes and you did not did you cooperate fully with that police
03:07:12 cooperate fully with that police investigation because you omitted to mention this relationship to them at all didn't you um yeah I wasn't asked about it I was asked specifically about another
03:07:25 asked specifically about another person the omission of any mention of your relationship with Denise Fuller when asked about a relationship with
03:07:39 when asked about a relationship with another person was misleading wasn't it um it wasn't intended to be um it was the beginning of a process that I'd absolutely sort of uh no understanding of in terms of how it was linked to um wider investigations I was specifically asked cautioned about and questioned
03:07:50 cautioned about and questioned specifically with regards to one individual that was the interview under caution that you had yes that was about
03:08:01 caution that you had yes that was about one individual yes yes but you must have understood as a former police officer that if they were interviewing you under caution about the possibility that you had had a relationship with an activist
03:08:16 had had a relationship with an activist in your undercover identity then it was regarded as a serious matter you understood that didn't you well I understood what I was being asked about um
03:08:25 about um and uh it was made quite clear that answer the questions um and so I answered the questions but if you're being interviewed under caution you understand that the police are taking
03:08:39 understand that the police are taking seriously an allegation or a suggestion that you might have had a relationship with an activist in your undercover identity all I can say is what happened on that day and I answered all of their questions and the questions they put to
03:08:51 questions and the questions they put to me these were experienced officers that got the answer to every question that they asked well you answered no comment in the interview so they didn't get an answer to every question they asked did they well that was a no comment in regards to that specific
03:09:03 regards to that specific individual my question was not about what happened on that day my question was about the understanding you would have taken away from being interviewed under caution by police officers about
03:09:20 under caution by police officers about your conduct you understood didn't you hm1 that the question of undercover officers having relationships with activists was a matter being taken seriously by the police through operation Hearn you understood that didn't you
03:09:38 didn't you yes and yet when officers spoke to you not just in the interview under caution but also in 2014 you misled them by failing to mention anything about your relationship with Miss Fuller didn't
03:09:49 with Miss Fuller didn't you um I wasn't asked about it why does it matter whether you were
03:10:01 it why does it matter whether you were asked about it when it was clear to you that the operation Hearn officers were interested in the subject of relationships between undercover officers and activists um well this was a beginning of a process um what does that matter why would you
03:10:17 um what does that matter why would you not be entirely candid and tell them to assist their investigation well um the I considered um I think they considered too um that all it was
03:10:30 considered too um that all it was necessary to do was to answer questions and and I
03:10:31 and and I did you weren't only interviewed under caution were you hm1 you also spoke to the officers and gave a narrative account regarding your deployment why did you say nothing about your
03:10:43 did you say nothing about your relationship with Miss Fuller to them um well I wasn't aware that um anything outside of um what was going on on the SDS was part of that
03:10:55 on the SDS was part of that investigation at the time and it was the beginning of a process um which uh was dealing with generalities um I answered the questions that were put to me and that's how I dealt with all of those um
03:11:08 that's how I dealt with all of those um the encounters with Al when you saw them in 2014 the record of your interview with them records that you said I have participated to the best of my capacity but you hadn't had
03:11:26 but you hadn't had you I I I responded um in my capacity um in the context of the questions that were put to me um which was the advice given by these seasoned um detectives making it clear that beyond the
03:11:41 making it clear that beyond the questions um there was no need to go any further so you were suggesting that the operation Hearn officers uh gave you the impression that you did not me to make any disclosure unless they asked you a direct
03:11:54 unless they asked you a direct question um they they were asking me direct questions throughout I'm not talking about the interview under caution hm1 I'm talking about the debrief you had with them in 2014 do you
03:12:07 debrief you had with them in 2014 do you want to be reminded of the notes no I my my recollection is um I dealt with I dealt with it to the best of my ability that's just simply not true is it hm1 the best of your ability as a
03:12:22 it hm1 the best of your ability as a former police officer yourself a former for public servant answering questions to a police investigation would have been to tell them yes I too had a relationship with an activist undercover it wasn't LTD it was an activist named Denise Fuller or Liz Fuller that that
03:12:34 Denise Fuller or Liz Fuller that that would have been the honest and proper thing to do wouldn't it hm1 well I as I say I I answered the questions that were put to me that's all I can say um that's that's what
03:12:47 I can say um that's that's what happened hoping that no body would ever find
03:12:51 find out uh well it wasn't my first choice that this became a public disclosure exercise right so actively attempting to avoid the police investigation ever
03:13:07 avoid the police investigation ever finding out about what you had done uh well no the police as an organization knew um because it was in within the police organization as fact so didn't need to tell them because if they looked carefully enough in the documents they might find out for themselves well all I remember on that day uh was
03:13:21 well all I remember on that day uh was answering their questions that's that's really all I can say on this one nothing to add to that aies moving on then again just to give you the opportunity now that the details of the relationship
03:13:38 that the details of the relationship have been um qu have been the subject of questioning the risk assessment process that you went through in making an application for anonymity before this inquiry uh I'll put the document up
03:13:51 inquiry uh I'll put the document up briefly so that you can can be reminded of what you said MPS 0749
03:14:01 632 0749 632 please and scroll to section
03:14:05 section 2.17 please I think it will be about page
03:14:12 four thank you and uh this is 2.17 hm1 key
03:14:17 key Associates and then over the page please because we went through this in more detail on
03:14:22 detail on Wednesday uh you mentioned Liz Fuller to the risk assessors uh you said clever and interested in Revenge she would want him to feel the pain and some personal details but you made no mention of the
03:14:33 details but you made no mention of the relationship at all did you to the risk
03:14:38 assessor
03:14:49 um well the nature relationship was a very close Association which uh on which that description and assessment was based where does it say very close Association well I I didn't I didn't complete that those aren't my that's not my text um right so you're saying you told them that you had a very close
03:15:03 told them that you had a very close association with Miss Fuller I'd imagine so yes well did you or did you not I I don't recall a detailed conversation but um in terms of um that
03:15:18 of um that being um part of the in terms of how she might feel as a close associate but um that looks accurate to me you understand full well don't you hm1 that for the purposes of this risk
03:15:29 purposes of this risk assessment there was a material difference a distinction being drawn between a close associate and you having had a sexual
03:15:41 associate and you having had a sexual intimate relationship with somebody in your undercover identity um well yes I think that that would have enhanced that statement not diminished
03:15:52 diminished it sorry enhanced what statement um the nature of the um or the intensity of the the need for Revenge I didn't I didn't describe that word that's the
03:16:04 describe that word that's the summary but when this risk assessment was taking place you understood that it was connected to this public inquiry didn't
03:16:12 didn't you um yes that you were making an application before this inquiry to remain anonymous yes you understood that was that's what was happening yes and
03:16:24 was that's what was happening yes and you understood that one of the things this inquiry would be investigating was whether or not undercover officers had been having relationships with women in their undercover identities yes that was a
03:16:35 undercover identities yes that was a part of it yes and you did not at any time disclose during the risk assessment process that you had had a sexual intimate relationship with Miss Fuller
03:16:47 intimate relationship with Miss Fuller did you um I don't believe so no and do you agree that that was misleading um your failure to mention amounted to deceit U not in terms of the risk
03:16:59 deceit U not in terms of the risk assessment the entirety of the risk assessment um goes um
03:17:06 Beyond um my involvement in that world it does but you were asked about your uh deployment weren't you as part
03:17:17 your uh deployment weren't you as part of the risk assessment that's why we a list of key Associates with whom you Associated undercover yeah and I would have described and did describe um the intense nature of my close relationship with those individuals yes but not that
03:17:28 with those individuals yes but not that you had a sexual relationship with Miss Fuller um not specifically um but I mean had I done so that would have only sort of
03:17:47 of um enhance the severity um of the of the likely animosity yes so all the more reason to mention it well as I say that's part of um in isolation that's not the whole risk assessment there's
03:18:01 not the whole risk assessment there's much more to it what does that matter in terms of whether or not you mentioned a sexual relationship with Miss Fuller hm1 well I considered that um a declaration of a very close friendship um was was
03:18:12 um was was sufficient you understood didn't you that if you'd had a sexual relationship with a an activist in your undercover identity that would have been a
03:18:23 identity that would have been a significant piece of information for this inquiry to discover um so this this inquiry has become aware of it is aware
03:18:34 inquiry has become aware of it is aware of it um has been aware of it for a long time were you hoping when you underwent the risk assessment Pro risk assessment process that the inquiry might never find out um no I was absolutely certain
03:18:46 find out um no I was absolutely certain that the inquiry would and I would have to talk about it finally can we return to the impact statement that you signed and was submitted on your behalf to this um inquiry as part of the anonymity
03:19:00 inquiry as part of the anonymity application so it's your A4 it's ucpi 0
03:19:15 37228 and I want to ask you about a part that was not uh we did not uh cover on Wednesday
03:19:17 Wednesday can we turn please to page three of the
03:19:30 extract and you said this in your impact statement which was your first witness statement in effect to this inquiry at the end of paragraph 16 I am worried that I would be tarnished by the actions of a limited
03:19:46 tarnished by the actions of a limited number of officers or the brackets so far untested allegations made by
03:19:58 activists when you made that statement you had not forgotten that you yourself had had a relationship a sexual relationship whilst undercover had you yeah
03:20:04 yeah correct and yet you chose to refer there to the possibility of being tarnished by the actions of a limited number of officers presumably other
03:20:15 officers presumably other officers uh um yes so yes the implication one aspect of it sorry sorry I'm sorry to interrupt you no I beg your pardon I interrupted you I was just saying by by some
03:20:30 saying by by some yes the implication in that statement is that you should not be regarded as included among as amongst the officers against whom allegations had been or might be made isn't it um well um the
03:20:46 might be made isn't it um well um the allegations that were made by some um were
03:20:53 were contained um accusations that haven't been made um about me um in terms of conduct and behavior um so I I did uh and I do uh distinguish uh my circumstances from uh
03:21:11 distinguish uh my circumstances from uh those of others and the degree to which um yes sorry that's that was my answer to that
03:21:12 to that one you were I suggest hm1 willing to lead the inquiry up and until you were asked a very direct question through your
03:21:23 your lawyers in 2000 um and at the end of
03:21:34 2017 you were willing actively to mislead those who asked you about whether or not you had had a relationship with Miss Fuller weren't you um no I do dispute that I accept that there's a sort of clumsy chronology here I really don't think I could have been throughout the whole of this
03:21:51 been throughout the whole of this process um uh Cooperative collaborative um and
03:21:53 um and open uh I think um I don't want any praise for it um but I'd like you know um some acknowledgement that that has been the case um and I'm aware that is
03:22:07 been the case um and I'm aware that is certainly not the case with many others fully collaborative and Cooperative would have been to tell operation Hearn when they first came asking in 2014 that you were one of the officers who had engaged enged in this behavior wouldn't it so there might a Slicker way
03:22:25 wouldn't it so there might a Slicker way of doing it um would have been um uh you to got the whole story out quickly but it was the beginning of the process that um no one had any real clue which direction it would going so all I can say is that wasn't a slick part of the process but on operation Hearn um I did
03:22:41 process but on operation Hearn um I did not lie to operation Hearn and you know the net contribution uh to date uh I just um well I would suggest I've been um open collaborative um I've given
03:22:57 um open collaborative um I've given everything to um an operation which is you know a truly testing traumatic
03:23:08 you know a truly testing traumatic difficult um uh five years so there's more to talk about as well but um I don't think anyone could actually genuinely Come Away with an assessment of me having attempted to deceive mislead um the process um after sitting through um not only this but um in the
03:23:25 through um not only this but um in the years that have gone into sort of uh the build up to this well that's my that's my answer or comment sorry failing to mention that you had
03:23:40 sorry failing to mention that you had had a relationship with Miss Fuller was not about whether or not your response was slick it was about whether your response contained the whole truth wasn't it so I accept I could have mentioned it
03:23:53 mentioned it earlier um uh but I did mention it um it it has been known about for a long long time um but I can see that I should have mentioned it earlier and to have mentioned it earlier would have been to be more
03:24:09 would have been to be more truthful and not to have misled people by omitting essential information wouldn't it well I don't think was any attempt to mislead um if there was any sort of material way in which um people think I've done that then um you know
03:24:29 think I've done that then um you know please do remind me that was there was no intent to do that um I accept that you um in response to what were you pretty closed questions
03:24:36 questions um I could have been more uh discursive um and um
03:24:48 but uh net contribution um and the speed at which and the level of um open this uh I
03:24:50 uh I um I think I've done okay on do you think you abided by the spirit of police regulations in not mentioning to
03:25:01 regulations in not mentioning to operation Hearn something that was clearly of interest to the investigate to the police
03:25:12 investigation well all I can say about that is um sorry to repeat myself I did answer their questions
03:25:21 do police regulations simply require you to answer the questions you're asked or do they require you to be candid and fully truthful in the face of a police investigation uh well I think I have been candid and truthful over the duration um of this very very lengthy
03:25:48 process so I can move to a new topic um or we can break now um at that stage I think we may have reached a time at which um unless the new topic can be completed um within uh 20 minutes at the most we have reached the end of what we
03:26:01 most we have reached the end of what we can do I don't think I can guarantee to complete it in 20 minutes
03:26:08 minutes um in in that event I think we will pause now
03:26:10 pause now uh hn1 it's some uh hoped and expected that your evidence can be completed in two days um
03:26:26 in let me get it
03:26:42 right I'll be corrected if I'm wrong but in the so I'm sorry to interrupt you I gather that there is no fixed date um yet so it may be better rather than to set hairs running to wait until that can be well I was going to mention what the date was on the assumption that
03:26:55 date was on the assumption that Arrangements can be made but um if you think it wiser I would I'm receiving instructions to suggest that it might be best to wait and see if the arrangements can be made first your evidence is going to take I'm told at least sorry I'm going to told will take two days to
03:27:10 going to told will take two days to complete um and I would ask you to be available to give evidence in two consecutive days or what I hope will be two consecutive days in the not too distant future I I know that you can't
03:27:22 distant future I I know that you can't do it next week for and uh the inquiry is not going to interrupt your Arrangements next week but can I ask you uh please to be ready uh to resume uh in The Fairly near future for two days of
03:27:48 The Fairly near future for two days of course sir yes yeah um can I mention one further thing um I don't think you have um uh had the opportunity to speak directly to uh Denise Fuller
03:27:50 Fuller uh if I were to give you that opportunity uh now is it one that you would wish to take
03:27:59 take um I don't think so so I'd rather I'd rather not take that opportunity just at the moment if that if that's okay uh is
03:28:10 the moment if that if that's okay uh is that because it is as it were public in front of a whole lot of people because that problem can be cured or because um you would rather do it in different circumstances um I'd like some time to reflect on that if I may
03:28:30 yes might I take this opportunity to raise the question of communication given he is now part in the ORD way there will be no communication with him about the subject matter of his evidence however it is
03:28:42 matter of his evidence however it is certainly possible that there will be matters arising between now and the next dates which hn one's assistance may be
03:28:53 dates which hn one's assistance may be required on such as this week where we received a new wi the statement photographs in a document and his views May indeed need to be sought um we would hope that there wouldn't be new material arising now but in case there is it
03:29:07 arising now but in case there is it seems sensible to ask for permission now rather than waiting um of course I am well aware of the responsibilities under which um Council and solicitors
03:29:21 under which um Council and solicitors representing someone as an inquiry are under I have not the slightest doubt that they will be fulfilled and of course if you consider it necessary you may do so in the event of anything arising which causes a difficulty or
03:29:32 arising which causes a difficulty or doubt to you please raise it directly with the inquiry of course thank you sir very well we will um adjourn now and resume on Monday at
03:29:45 10:
03:30:14 for e