HN368 & HN244 Angus McIntosh - SDS Detective Inspector 1972-1978

Full transcript

00:10:45 all rise please

00:11:01 welcome to day six of evidential hearings at the undercover policing inquiry

00:11:04 inquiry my name is neil fernandes and i am the hearings manager there is no fire alarm testing expected today

00:11:15 so if the fire alarm does go off please follow the fire exit signs and make your way to the master point which is the hard rock hotel great cumberland place

00:11:26 on arrival please make yourself known to a fire marshal who will be wearing a high visibility jacket and will be keeping a register of all attendees

00:11:36 i now hand over to the chairman sir john mitting to formally start pres to today's proceedings chairman thank you as always i begin with a message to those in the public area

00:11:45 area you may use any handheld electronic device that you have to communicate what

00:12:03 device that you have to communicate what you see and hear in the hearing room but only once 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that you are describing you may not use them for the purpose of recording what is going on here or photographing miss campbell thank you sir

00:12:16 thank you sir this morning i'll be presenting the summary of the evidence of hn 368 richard james walker

00:12:23 richard walker was a detective sergeant in the sds back office from september 1974 to april 1978. he provided a witness statement to the inquiry dated the 5th of november 2020 which may be summarized as follows

00:12:36 which may be summarized as follows richard walker joined the metropolitan police service as a junior cadet in 1954 and became a full constable in 1956. he joined special branch in 1966 and

00:12:49 he joined special branch in 1966 and served in various positions prior to the sds including dealing with inquiries and intelligence gathering in relation to extreme left-wing matters for which he received a commendation

00:13:01 received a commendation he worked on security vetting and held one role dealing with extremist groups in the indian and pakistani communities in london which consisted of intelligence gathering and liaison with a8 in relation to demonstrations

00:13:20 he joined the sds in september 1974. he was asked to join by d.i derek bryce whom walker knew from a previous posting he did not know much about the sds before joining as there was a strict

00:13:36 before joining as there was a strict need to know policy in special branch he cannot remember being given a handover when he started but believes that he would have had one he did not receive any specific training for the role

00:13:51 richard walker describes himself as effectively the quote quartermaster of the sds

00:13:55 the sds he would help source and administer vehicles

00:13:58 vehicles assist in arrangements for accommodation for u-c-o's ran the petty cash book and paid various bills

00:14:11 bills he had no involvement in the creation of cover identities procurement of covered documents or procurement of cover accommodation

00:14:18 richard walker would attend the weekly meetings at the safe houses with the undercover officers he recalls that detective chief inspectors detective inspectors and more junior ranked officers in the sds office would also attend weekly

00:14:29 also attend weekly and the superintendent and chief superintendent would go less often at the meetings u-c-o's would submit their diaries and expenses and provide reports

00:14:46 reports management would check in with the ucos to see how they were walker states quote there would be general chat we would ask about their problems if there were any and make sure that they were happy in their work the ucos were working in difficult

00:14:59 the ucos were working in difficult conditions and with some unpleasant people

00:15:04 people and when i was in the office the welfare aspect of our role was important end quote

00:15:13 he does not recall any officers spending time in the back office in advance of their deployment or after their withdrawal from the field he was not aware of any unhappy working relationships in the sds

00:15:26 richard walker did have a role in compiling the reporting from undercover officers

00:15:27 officers officers would give report updates in writing and orally at meetings and may have

00:15:36 have and may have occasionally called the office to give information over the phone

00:15:43 phone he notes quote there was no filter on what they were meant to do or say in terms of reporting

00:15:47 walker states that he would look at the manuscript reports and would make suggested changes to the language to make it more formal or grammatically correct

00:15:59 he did not change the substance of the reports

00:16:01 reports he notes that special branch had exacting standards of written english and they were aware that reporting was likely to go to the home office and security service so high standards were applied

00:16:18 walker recalls that contact with the ucos was at least once a week face to face

00:16:19 face and that officers could ask for one-to-one meetings with managers if they wished he considered himself to have a role in the welfare of the undercover officers

00:16:33 the welfare of the undercover officers ensuring the smooth running of some of the administration connected to their duties

00:16:34 duties quote all of the back office sds staff had a role in making sure the ucos could cope emotionally with the work they were doing

00:16:43 doing this was done by talking to them if they had any problems they would be seen and spoken to we tried to do the best we could to keep in touch with people who were doing a difficult job

00:16:57 difficult job i am still proud of the work that we did and i thought that we had done what we could do to provide support to the ucos end quote

00:17:09 richard walker denies playing any role in directing or steering the reporting of undercover officers and indeed was not aware of any sds officer directing or steering uco reporting while he was in the unit when asked about his signature on

00:17:24 when asked about his signature on several intelligence reports he explains that he may have signed as the person submitting those particular pieces of information for typing rather than as the source of the intelligence richard walker describes the arrangements in place for the storage

00:17:36 arrangements in place for the storage and retention of intelligence reports he explains that special branch had an enormous registry of files but there

00:17:48 enormous registry of files but there were also safes in every office for the temporary storage of documents quote

00:17:51 quote we would keep files in the sds if they were topical at the time so there may have been files including sds reporting which were locked in the office for a period

00:17:59 period for example if there was an officer in the troops out movement there would be a file which the sds would maintain and once it was not current it would go to the registry end quote

00:18:11 the registry end quote he does not know how long records were maintained for he states that he had no role in the dissemination of the reporting however he was aware that reports would have

00:18:25 he was aware that reports would have gone to other parts of special branch the security service a8 or other agencies

00:18:26 agencies he expects that there may have been some modification of reports depending on who the ultimate recipient was

00:18:38 the ultimate recipient was for example reports sent to a8 may not have included pf and rf reference numbers

00:18:44 richard walker states that he had no general contact with the security service at the time when asked about his name appearing on a guest list of special branch members invited to a security service party in february 1978

00:18:58 february 1978 walker speculates that special branch may have been asked to put forward a number of officers to attend as he does not know any other reason why he was included he recalls the party as being quote

00:19:09 he recalls the party as being quote somewhat awkward as the security service had obviously typecast the group of special branch officers as being beer drinking policemen so i felt we had been stereotyped end quote

00:19:21 richard walker was involved in the payment of overtime to officers he was not responsible for authorizing overtime but would check officer diaries to ensure their claims were accurate and submit them to the payment department

00:19:35 submit them to the payment department he notes that the keeping of overtime diaries was a force-wide obligation below a certain rank and not particular to the sds although he thought that the benefits of overtime may have caused officers to

00:19:48 overtime may have caused officers to want to remain in the sds he notes that it would not be up to the officers to decide if they remain past the normal deployment length he does not believe the amount of

00:19:59 he does not believe the amount of overtime influenced any officer to paint an overly optimistic picture of their achievements

00:20:04 during his time in the sds richard walker traveled on more than one occasion to accompany uco's attending events outside of london

00:20:15 events outside of london this included a trip to blackburn for an action against racism demonstration in 1976

00:20:21 1976 for which he and d.i macintosh received a letter of thanks from lancashire police

00:20:23 police he states quote managers and administrative staff would travel to the same part of the country as a uco in limited circumstances

00:20:35 as a uco in limited circumstances as far as i recall it would have been in circumstances where there could have been a risk to them whether in terms of a risk to violence or risk of arrest in the course of their duties end quote

00:20:50 end quote the number of sds officers involved may have also been a factor in assessing where support was needed walker notes that staff were present for the safety and welfare of the ucos and to be on hand in case there was any action against them by local police

00:21:09 action against them by local police the ucos would have been aware of the presence of the accompanying staff such trips may also have required liaison with the local force or constabulary

00:21:18 richard walker signs the transport reports present in the 1976 and 1977 sds annual reports but does not believe that he was involved in compiling the annual reports beyond this aspect he does believe the contents of those

00:21:29 he does believe the contents of those reports to be an honest reflection of the work of the sds

00:21:36 he agrees with comments made in the 1978 annual report that undercover deployments did not seem to have any deleterious effect on the health of ucos walker notes that the officers did get very tired due to the

00:21:47 officers did get very tired due to the hours they worked but he cannot recall any particular mental or physical health problems

00:21:54 problems in terms of issues that arose with contemporaneous undercover officers walker accepts that he would have probably known at the time about the

00:22:05 probably known at the time about the first arrest of hn13 cover named desmond barry loader but was not involved in any way with dealing with it he has no recollection he has no recollection of the possible compromises relating to hn126

00:22:19 compromises relating to hn126 cover named paul gray but notes that quote

00:22:24 quote the ucos had to handle risks like this we trust them to manage them appropriately if a uco felt worried about compromise we would have pulled them out in a manner which was safe for them but which did not arouse suspicion

00:22:39 he was not aware of any officers engaging in sexual activity while in their cover identity including hn 21 hn 354 vince harvey and hn

00:22:47 hn hn297 richard clarke

00:22:53 walker was not aware of any colleagues or managers knowing of any sexual relationships and expects that if they did he would have heard about it in the office

00:23:02 office he was not aware of any manager giving uco's orders instructions advice or guidance about sexual conduct whilst operating undercover

00:23:18 when asked to comment on the evidence of hn 304 cover named graham coats that managers quote appear to turn a blind eye to bits of banter and innuendo and that they quote must have known it meaning sexual activity

00:23:31 meaning sexual activity was almost bound to happen with certain individuals who had a predilection for chasing women richard walker states that he disagrees with this account he comments quote i think there was an expectation that the ucos would behave

00:23:45 the ucos would behave rather than an expectation that they would misbehave there was very little banter as i recall and i certainly would not have turned a blind eye to anything i thought had a ring of truth to it

00:23:58 ring of truth to it i categoric i categorically do not agree with the comment on predilection i certainly had not judged anyone on that basis men who say things about women don't always mean it or follow through with what they say

00:24:13 he confirms that he had known about that had he known about sexual activity with activists he would not have condoned it to his knowledge none of his contemporaries provoked or encouraged a

00:24:25 contemporaries provoked or encouraged a third party to commit a criminal offence engaged in sexual activity whilst in their cover identity were involved in incidents of public order or violence reported on any legally privileged information

00:24:36 information or reported on the activities of elected politicians aside from hn13 he did not know of any officers who were arrested tried or convicted in their cover identity

00:24:49 convicted in their cover identity he believes that the activities of trade unions would only have been reported on if trade union members were part of the group that the uco had infiltrated and the information was relevant to that group

00:25:05 richard walker was aware of deceased children's identities being used at the time but cannot comment on the origin of the practice or any consideration or any consideration given to its use he comments quote

00:25:18 he comments quote i can say that it obviously wasn't thought through and i can understand how the parents of the dead children are upset

00:25:26 upset i think the sds did not think the families would find out

00:25:34 when asked to comment on why certain under uh certain information was reported by undercover officers richard walker notes that quote the sds was a conduit and action requests for information

00:25:51 requests for information the sds recorded information and did not filter the information gathered as the sds were not gathering it for our own purposes

00:25:56 purposes we acted on behalf of other persons with no oversight of the broader purpose of the information

00:26:02 in terms of what the sds achieved for the benefit of policing richard walker states quote i can say that it obtained all of the requests for intelligence on public

00:26:15 requests for intelligence on public order and national security that were requested of it when i was involved i would have not known that everything excuse me i would not have known that everything we were asked to get was later directed to

00:26:26 later directed to so it is hard for me to quantify the benefit

00:26:32 benefit it was very much a case that the sds did what they were asked to do and didn't question it if the sds was given a target the order was not queried it was actioned

00:26:43 actioned personally i felt that the sds achieved the goals that we had been set for the benefit of policing and i certainly thought we were doing the right thing at the right time

00:26:54 richard walker left the sds after three and a half years which was the expected length of his posting he does not believe he had much if any contact with information emanating from the sds in subsequent special branch

00:27:05 the sds in subsequent special branch roles which were primarily in the field of irish terrorism he retired from the mps in 1987 at the rank of detective superintendent

00:27:16 superintendent thank you sir that concludes the summary for richard walker documents related to this manager will be published online today uh as well as the documents related to hn1668 les willingell who was detective

00:27:31 les willingell who was detective sergeant in the sds from approximately august 1975 to february 1977 and thereafter was detective inspector in the sds until approximately december 1977

00:27:43 1977 he is deceased thank you sir thank you we'll now adjourn for 10 minutes to enable arrangements to be made

00:27:54 made to hear our next live witness angus macintosh

00:50:15 all rise please

00:50:30 mr mcintosh i understand you wish to be sworn

00:50:32 sworn right yes mr fernandez minister

00:50:42 thank you please place your bible in your right hand and repeat after me i swear i swear by almighty god i almighty god that the evidence i shall give the evidence shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and

00:50:55 the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth nothing but the truth thank you

00:50:59 miss hamilton

00:51:10 um can you give us your full name please angus brian mcintosh uh you have provided a witness statement dated the 16th of february 2021 uh can you confirm

00:51:27 uh can you confirm that the contents of that statement are true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief i can you joined the uh sds in april 1972

00:51:38 1972 you tell us in your witness statement the rank of detective inspector and you were second in command at the scs is that right that is correct um prior to joining the sds

00:51:56 um prior to joining the sds uh you joined special branch in 1964. is that right i believe so yes um so by the time you joined the sds you were an experienced special branch officer yes

00:52:07 yes um you spent some time on c squad prior to your time in the sds is that right initial period in uh special branch yes

00:52:24 initial period in uh special branch yes um after your initial period in sp and c squad did you spend any more time in c squad in that time before you joined the sds

00:52:32 sds thank you because you go into other squads that you were um you joined in that intervening period

00:52:39 period during your time in a special branch prior to uh your time in the sds

00:52:50 to uh your time in the sds did you have any knowing interaction uh with the sds none at all and were you aware of any traffic of information uh from the sds to any squad you were serving with or the other direction in

00:53:02 serving with or the other direction in the other direction requests going out i didn't see any um

00:53:09 um you tell us in your witness statement that your special branch experience gave you a knowledge of the organizations that the ucl those would be

00:53:19 be dealing with and the reporting structure in special branch and the likely pitfalls that ucos might come across during the course of their

00:53:30 come across during the course of their deployment is that right that's correct and is that the extent of the uh the uh ways in which your special branch

00:53:41 ways in which your special branch experience assisted you with your sds role

00:53:46 you're asking me how it did sorry yes sorry i i i i is it your your knowledge of the organizations the reporting structure and also likely pitfalls for ucos are

00:53:58 and also likely pitfalls for ucos are those the three things that you learned prior to come to the sds which were the three things that assisted you in your sds role um

00:54:09 um just a few questions please about police training

00:54:19 training you were trained uh presumably on basic police powers of entry search and seizure

00:54:22 seizure when you became a police officer would that be right that's true we had a 13-week course when you first joined

00:54:36 you first joined and then throughout your service you had various courses including cid courses and

00:54:36 and promotion courses um

00:54:46 um was there any further training given on that topic powers of entry search and seizure

00:54:49 seizure when you join special branch can you remember

00:54:52 remember not that i can recall um

00:55:00 um when you joined special branch in 1964 uh did you then have further training for that role uh

00:55:08 uh in branch yes but it was mainly done through a mentor right thank you um i wonder if we can just have up on the screen very briefly please

00:55:18 please ucpi five zeroes at

00:55:23 at 34702 please

00:55:33 this is a document from 1979 so

00:55:34 so not at the time when you first joined special branch this is that this is said to be initial initial training for special branch officers

00:55:47 special branch officers did you go through initial training for special branch officers that you can recall no

00:55:56 recall no in fact that course uh started just after i'd left the sds [Music]

00:55:58 [Music] there was

00:56:01 there was prior to that there were no special causes as far as i'm aware thank you very much i think we can then take that that document uh down because i don't think you're going to be able to assist me with its contents um we know that you undertook

00:56:14 um we know that you undertook um some training at brams hill during the course of your time at the sds you had two periods at brams hill uh was that a

00:56:24 that a special branch training that you undertook there no no general please thank you very much can you assist us with what sort of thing it covered that training if you can recall

00:56:40 if you can recall not really it catered for people of inspector rank and um

00:56:44 and um possible higher rank in due course and it was a general uh training uh

00:57:02 uh general training course in both uh on the legal side and also on the social attitudes of the time right

00:57:02 right um did it

00:57:04 um did it cover uh anything to do with undercover work or supervising undercover work nothing at all um

00:57:15 um did you have um any understanding of how basic police officers powers of entry search and seizure applied to officers working undercover

00:57:32 well it was felt that

00:57:37 working undercover providing they were there and invited into the premises

00:57:50 there and invited into the premises there wasn't a problem they were going with whatever group or comrades they were with at the time and it couldn't be constructed any other way purely because they couldn't stop at a door and

00:58:01 they couldn't stop at a door and suddenly turn around say i can't go in there

00:58:03 there and it would have jeopardized their cover

00:58:05 cover was that something that was actively considered then that that people gave some sort of scrutiny to the idea as to

00:58:17 to the idea as to how that difficulty would be overcome by ucos during your time there do you recall no i don't recall any special

00:58:29 recall no i don't recall any special uh and so you you say that that was the prevailing opinion that so long as consent was well that was a general policing role

00:58:35 role right

00:58:39 right uh thank you very much uh um

00:58:45 it you uh by up the inquiries calculation uh when you first joined the sds um the unit was headed up by jeffrey kraft

00:58:57 jeffrey kraft and we understand you have no memory of serving at the same time as him is that right that's correct yes although it it it would appear that

00:59:14 although it it it would appear that there are documents that indicate he's signing off uh at matasu with you for example

00:59:18 example i think it's he that signs the document seeking

00:59:21 seeking permission for you and detective sergeant walker to accompany some sds officers to to blackburn can you remember

00:59:32 blackburn can you remember i remember going there and i i really can't understand why i can't recall working with mr kraft

00:59:50 i can only presume that the major incidents which may have occurred during that time was during a period i was on other courses being a newly promoted inspector you were obliged to attend a six-week promotion course and there was also a six-week general duties cid course

01:00:02 duties cid course now i can't tell the committee the inquiry exactly when i went on that but i presume as a newly promoted officer i would have done during that

01:00:15 officer i would have done during that period and are these separate courses from the courses at brams hill for which we've got those dates completely independent run by the metropolitan police

01:00:28 police i think they were all at hand so

01:00:32 so you had at least do you think probably 12 weeks of training in that first period when you were first promoted to yeah i believe i must have done i certainly did those courses but i can't be exact on

01:00:44 can't be exact on the dates

01:00:46 the dates thank you

01:00:51 give me that in addition to the 13-week course at brams hill absolutely sir

01:01:04 to your uh recollection uh was um mike ferguson the dci

01:01:08 the dci at the scs throughout your period there then or can you recall a period when he may not have been well there must have been a period when he wasn't but i wasn't able to say

01:01:26 but i wasn't able to say say that when i made a statement because i didn't remember working with jeff kraft right thank you

01:01:38 moving on to duties that you carried out you said you received informal guidance from mike ferguson on administrative duties how cover identities were created and the methods of introducing new officers

01:01:55 officers and undercover officers sorry meetings with undercover officers and you say that training was ad hoc as the problem or or issue arose you were then

01:02:09 learnt how to deal with it is that is that affair basically that's correct the um

01:02:13 um i mean it didn't all come from uh michael ferguson because it was carried through from previous management and so when i joined the squad

01:02:28 so when i joined the squad many of the practices were already in hand

01:02:38 did you have any sort of handover from the pre the person who had had your role previously can you recall i'm pretty certain no it wasn't the normal thing in those days you didn't have handover you were just told to take up a job on monday whatever

01:02:51 on monday whatever right

01:02:52 right um

01:02:56 were you given

01:03:04 given any guidance as to how you should advise the undercover officers as to their conduct in that

01:03:08 in that role how they should conduct themselves i wasn't given specific guidance but my guidance which i i gave to the officers

01:03:19 gave to the officers was you are police officers you're subject to the regulations and therefore your behavior has to be appropriate to those regulations right i'm going to ask

01:03:33 those regulations right i'm going to ask you a little bit more about that in a in a little while um

01:03:36 um uh did uh

01:03:38 uh did uh mike ferguson share with you how to identify

01:03:50 how to identify the risks associated with undercover policing for example the risks of compromise or arrests or relationships with activists or other welfare considerations the sort of things you needed to look out for and

01:04:03 things you needed to look out for and safeguard it made me very aware of those things and the high risk of the occupation

01:04:14 and was any reference made up to any um past difficulties encountered officers being arrested or any welfare difficulties in the past any sort of

01:04:26 any sort of collective knowledge of difficulties in the past passed on to you

01:04:36 not specific because whatever the difficulties were in the past had been

01:04:43 catered for within on ongoing uh operations uh and uh recruitment of our own offices to go out

01:04:59 um we have um heard from an officer who gave evidence in a closed session about a black folder in the sds black office containing notes from previous officers about tradecraft

01:05:11 tradecraft um can you recall any such black folder in the back office during your time at the sds i think there was

01:05:20 there was such a folder um i can't

01:05:24 i can't remember

01:05:26 remember specific contents however it would make sense that officers leaving the squad would actually

01:05:40 squad would actually leave record of any advice to new undercover officers so i i would think what happened that the uh folder was kept by the

01:05:52 folder was kept by the the sergeants who were handling all the admin

01:05:53 admin problems

01:05:54 problems and

01:05:55 and during their time the new members time in the back office they would refer to that folder um can you recall

01:06:08 can you recall looking at the folder yourself i can't no

01:06:13 no um can you assist us with what any more specifically about what the contents might have been well i can't be specific but i presume it would be um

01:06:21 um tradecraft advice what your possible difficult experiences would be

01:06:28 would be um

01:06:33 do you think that ucs were advised to look at that folder and review the advice given in that folder i would feel almost certain that everyone

01:06:50 everyone looked at it once it was created because it was full of good advice for the new officers um

01:06:51 um was there any you say you you weren't underwear specifically of the contents of that folder would there have been uh do you think

01:07:09 would there have been uh do you think any sort of managerial oversight of the contents of that folder i can't answer that no to ensure that best practices were passed down no i um

01:07:15 no i um you say oversight the

01:07:22 the management certainly wouldn't have put in their own views no um

01:07:25 um if there was something in that folder which was

01:07:26 which was um

01:07:27 um may have

01:07:28 may have caused

01:07:35 caused maybe bad advice do you think that might be picked up by oh yeah senior managers i i'm certain that when they were debriefed the management would hear

01:07:46 the management would hear what the problems were and would be aware of

01:07:52 aware of the type of information the officer would have put into that folder i i mean the differences experienced by officers needed to be shared

01:08:04 officers needed to be shared with other officers so that they didn't uh

01:08:07 uh fall into the same trap yes

01:08:08 yes um

01:08:14 um mike ferguson of course had previously been displayed deployed he was an experienced uh undercover officer and you say

01:08:20 you say that he would uh take the lead on providing instructions on tactics and the practicalities of being under cover

01:08:33 of being under cover the impression given from your witness statement is that he built on his own experience as a former sds officer is that is that fair absolutely um

01:08:45 absolutely um that's the only way you could do it really

01:08:46 really thank you

01:08:51 thank you um i just want to ask um a little uh more detail about the guidance that was given to undercover officers about their uh conduct when they were deployed

01:09:01 deployed undercover were officers are given any specific advice about drinking alcohol in their undercover roles

01:09:23 other than the need to be aware of during the dangers of drinking driving um

01:09:25 um it wouldn't be it wouldn't be likely as specific

01:09:34 specific and the reason for that is that they were police officers they've all come up through uh the training system a disciplinary system and that and they knew quite well um

01:09:47 um because you have examinations all the time

01:09:51 time there's no reason to suggest that they didn't know that the disciplinary result of any misbehavior would be very very serious

01:10:05 would be very very serious was there any recognition though that this was a a very different role that they were um

01:10:18 undertaking where their whole life had become their work

01:10:19 work and that alcohol may

01:10:22 may cause

01:10:27 cause difficulty for them in undertaking that responsibly i think uh they knew that and you're quite right it was it was a very difficult thing to have a double life

01:10:40 have a double life and and certainly to keep him with the corral

01:10:44 corral excuse me the crowd they were interested in

01:10:48 in as far as the consumption of alcohol was concerned

01:10:50 concerned the

01:10:58 the major problem was drink and driving each officer had a vehicle um and

01:11:00 and the laws of drinking driving ex drink and driving existed in those days and they couldn't afford to get in to trouble

01:11:12 trouble and lose their license lose their license and they had no job as far as the formal discipline would be concerned

01:11:23 concerned be up to the chief officer to take into account

01:11:24 account what the job was so the main anxiety was about drinking and driving rather than the disinhibiting um effects of alcohol

01:11:37 um effects of alcohol in a close-knit social group which because we've heard that alcohol has played its part uh

01:11:42 uh encounters um undertaken by ucos but that wasn't something that you bore in mind at the time no it's a very difficult problem

01:11:54 difficult problem you're asking them to do a job which basically is quite alien to their training you also have to appreciate that they are

01:12:06 are working in an environment or having to work in an environment where

01:12:15 where that environment have their own standards

01:12:17 standards and

01:12:20 and to be successful in that environment you have to join them

01:12:28 but as a undercover officer you have this

01:12:32 this additional problem of knowing that you

01:12:33 you there's certain things you can't do

01:12:39 thank you how about

01:12:41 how about any guidance on the contact conduct of

01:12:52 any guidance on the contact conduct of personal relationships and the limits of those relationships and the perhaps the the guardian against building up too close a connection with um people they came across in their undercover roles no i don't think there was

01:13:04 was official guidance um that was the type of thing that

01:13:12 the chief inspector i was working with or myself if it was brought up in discussion we would advise them of the the difficulties and the problems uh which it might entail

01:13:24 which it might entail so that formed the basis of some sort

01:13:37 so that formed the basis of some sort some informal guidance if it came up um in an individual deployment is that it would be informal or personal guidance rather than laid down regulation um but it didn't form any basis of any kind of

01:13:42 kind of introductory guidance when the uco fought i can't answer that because uh certainly

01:13:49 certainly the period i recall with mike ferguson because of his experience he did most of the briefing for new officers

01:14:01 for new officers thank you

01:14:09 sexual liaisons

01:14:14 liaisons um in your witness statement you say that you considered that a sexual liaison with any individual whilst on duty

01:14:22 duty would have been contrary to priests uh police regulations and what what police regulations do you have in mind there are those police regulations that cover discipline yes um so

01:14:39 um so bringing discredit on the reputation of the force absolutely um

01:14:40 um and

01:14:46 and were all the officers in the sds at your during your time aware that any sexual liaison in their undercover role would have been would come under those police regulations well certainly all the

01:15:02 regulations well certainly all the officers i spoke to were aware of that uh you also say in your witness statement you didn't give specific guidance

01:15:12 guidance to officers about sexual conduct contact other than a reminder of the police regulations um that

01:15:18 that and the guidance for all serving officers was that it would be an offence under the police regulations to have a sexual liaison on duty was that something that you told officers in terms

01:15:36 i i can't honestly say whether i told everyone that i must admit that i've uh

01:15:49 i must admit that i've uh being rather old-fashioned presumed that people knew the police regulations particularly all those officers i would think had five years police service or or even more well a lot more um

01:16:06 more well a lot more um and and that those were the rules throughout the time so no i most probably didn't specifically say now look here chaps or whoever

01:16:16 whoever remember police regulations don't have sexual relationships um we know that during the course of

01:16:27 um we know that during the course of your service with the sds at least or eight officers were deployed undercover um i'm not going to you may want to refer to the have you got a list in front of you i'm not going to ask you for any names i

01:16:42 not going to ask you for any names i just want to so that you're aware of who i'm uh speaking about hn 304

01:16:49 hn 304 hn 3 5 4 h and eighty h in one two three at the moment he's uh sorry you're having a look so i'm sorry

01:16:56 i'm sorry my fault entirely my fault entirely so sorry

01:16:57 sorry start again um hn 304 i think was deployed undercover during your yes period at hn 354 in january 1977 he was deployed

01:17:13 oh yes hn ac

01:17:22 yes hn126

01:17:31 yes hn three five six

01:17:43 oh yes yes um hn96

01:18:01 i didn't get that 1996. oh 96. that's a good pardon

01:18:09 oh yes yes i'm hn hn106

01:18:16 yes and hn155

01:18:25 yes of those

01:18:27 of those uh we know that hn354

01:18:39 that we now know was vince harvey had sexual relations with uh four women

01:18:50 had sexual relations with uh four women in his undercover role and hn five five five one five five may have uh done so uh um

01:18:53 uh um you say

01:18:56 you say in your witness statement that you weren't

01:18:57 weren't because you weren't aware of any officer having sexual contact with any person whilst operating undercover you had no reason to think that the

01:19:11 you had no reason to think that the guidance needed to be made stronger or expressed any differently

01:19:19 hn 354 has told this inquiry that stricter guidance would have caused him to make different decisions

01:19:26 decisions whatever guidance you gave about sexual contact undercover do you accept it was not particularly strict

01:19:41 no i don't suspect that at all i i was quite

01:19:42 quite um

01:19:46 um well always have been strong on police discipline and i would have thought that if they were having a problem with this particular aspect

01:19:58 particular aspect they would approach either myself or the dci

01:20:03 the dci um to discuss the problem and the way forward

01:20:06 forward thank you we're going to come on to talk about that in a in a moment uh just dealing with other aspects of uh guidance to undercover officers

01:20:20 undercover officers uh um the commission of uh criminal offences

01:20:21 offences uh uh you say that you uh gave advice that the commission of criminal effect offenses was not permitted and it was made abundantly clear that you would that they the office under

01:20:35 you would that they the office under craft officers should not indulge in criminal activity excluding peaceful protests activities such as bill posting or leafleting um

01:20:45 um can you recall when advice of that nature was given to undercover officers would that have been at the beginning of

01:20:59 would that have been at the beginning of their deployment or dip or ad hoc during the course of their deployment throughout their employment um

01:21:08 was that advice uh formal or informal can you remember

01:21:10 remember um

01:21:17 can you sort of enlarge on what you term as formal and informal well was this a question of sitting the officers down in a room

01:21:23 a room and sort of delivering an edict as it were from management figures or was it simply that came something that came up during conversations with them during the course of their uh deployments

01:21:37 the course of their uh deployments initially they would have been given that advice so um

01:21:45 um although i didn't do it i'm quite sure that mike ferguson would have done um

01:21:49 um but the informal stuff would be normally at a meeting or not necessarily a group meeting but we used to meet them individually

01:22:00 individually and that was the opportunity to actually get

01:22:04 get uh seek any problems they were facing and also to advise them on the way

01:22:11 uh forward thank you um

01:22:17 can i very briefly please have on the screen ucpi five zeros two eight eight one zero

01:22:31 um this is a security services note for file um

01:22:34 um about a a

01:22:39 about a a a meeting that you attended with

01:22:40 with mike ferguson and trevor butler right at the end of your time with the sds and can we just please go to the second page of this document and to

01:22:52 second page of this document and to paragraph three at the bottom please

01:23:01 um you say it says there in general conversation we touched on the problem of

01:23:10 of agents being involved in actions of varying degrees of illegality ferguson remarked that certainly for the most more trivial offences there was no real hindrance to their operation since they were often able to insulate their sources

01:23:24 their sources even though this sometimes meant not prosecuting for not prosecuting other offenders

01:23:37 you were asked about that and your response was you had no idea if that was an approach or an opinion prevalent with others in the sds is that right and beyond

01:23:53 all i can say at the moment is i believe that's the first time i've ever

01:23:54 ever seen that paragraph ah um i i i believe you you you commented it on your witness statement but um it's perhaps of no great moment because you

01:24:05 great moment because you say that you you you don't recall that being said in your witness statement and you've got no idea whether others felt as mike ferguson

01:24:17 as mike ferguson felt whether that was a view prevalent you say that your co your approach was that you would not authorize any uh conduct beyond peaceful protest is that right

01:24:30 right yes and leafleting i think you mentioned yes

01:24:33 yes thank you we can take that document down now please so you'd have drawn the line of bill posting

01:24:38 posting um

01:24:45 not necessarily so it would depend on the circumstances the officer found them

01:24:52 but no i

01:25:00 no i i would say i would most probably would say bill posting was all right

01:25:08 positions of responsibility you say in your statement no specific guidance was given about uh

01:25:19 guidance was given about uh officers uh taking on positions of responsibility um no permission was required but there would have been a discussion

01:25:30 would have been a discussion between the undercover officer and their management you and mike smith is that right

01:25:35 right and you say that there was some benefit to a uco

01:25:41 taking on a position of responsibility within their target group because it's enhanced intelligence gathering

01:25:55 gathering can you recall um whether mike ferguson expressed views on undercover officers taking on active roles in groups was that something that he actively encouraged him can you recall

01:26:09 well certainly it wouldn't have been discouraged if if it was a role like treasurer or something but if it was a role which obviously involved future act

01:26:23 act uh act uh activities uh

01:26:24 uh conspiracy or whatever we wouldn't uh advise them in fact we would

01:26:31 would go against them going into that

01:26:36 thank you very much

01:26:50 prior to your joining the sds you say in your witness statement you had a very limited understanding of it or what it uh what what its purpose was or what it did absolutely true yes um

01:27:03 um when you joined the sds was there any sort of briefing you were given about um what its purpose was and what its methods were

01:27:21 its methods were or was it simply the informal guidance you were given by mike ferguson again or jeffrey kraft you tell me or jeffrey craft yes um

01:27:25 um you say that the the role of the sds in your witness statement was to supply information to the agency or agencies who'd asked for information or assistance and this included a8

01:27:36 included a8 and the security services although certainly possible other parts of special branch ask the sds for intelligence um

01:27:51 um did you understand there to be any sort of limit on the types of intelligence that were

01:27:52 that were gathered

01:28:00 no the the answer has to be no in as much as when you're dealing with intelligence you have to group in as much as you can to ascertain whether or not the intelligence the

01:28:20 whether or not the intelligence the overall intelligence is valid or not so i'd say no there wasn't any

01:28:21 any boundaries

01:28:29 was it simply a question of hoovering everything up and passing it on for assessment by others was that the approach that was

01:28:44 others was that the approach that was taken do you believe but to some extent uh i suppose it was um but then

01:28:48 but then it's it's difficult to know exactly what is going to be useful in due course

01:28:56 um when you say to some extent do you mean that

01:28:57 that there might have been some sort of filtering of information or or you or you don't know well now um the

01:29:06 the end result would be the the organization which wanted the information not the sds thank you

01:29:22 did you understand the purposes of the gathering of the intelligence or were you told by the

01:29:34 intelligence or were you told by the for once a better word customers of the sds what the purpose was no uh not specifically um it was all part of your special branch training you knew roughly

01:29:45 you knew roughly what's going to happen to it and why it was being collected and would that would the uh undercover officers have had a similar understanding of the purposes that there was something that they knew from their special branch

01:29:58 they knew from their special branch training in a general sort of way do you think abs absolutely i'm not aware of undercover officers being inexperienced sb officers might have been

01:30:10 you say that you didn't make any decisions on targeting or tasking those were made by other police and

01:30:21 by other police and government departments that's true um

01:30:21 um dealing with the uh police departments uh first but which

01:30:29 but which squads did you understand or making decisions on targeting or tasking for the sds

01:30:45 if it was internal the very senior management of the section is concerned and so we're talking s squad sea squad yes yes yes so those are the squads we're talking about

01:30:58 um and it's at that rank chief superintendents are making those decisions

01:31:02 decisions he had the overall responsibility for those decisions um

01:31:07 um by

01:31:10 by government departments do you mean the security services i do and and the home office were they making decisions on targets or tasking that you recall

01:31:21 recall i certainly are not aware of it um the

01:31:25 um the the targeting or tasking that came into the

01:31:26 the sds

01:31:32 was that written instruction what do you did you receive written instructions about targeting and tasking

01:31:45 i can't recall um i should think it was a mixture uh if it was internal it would uh be on some document right but was it also

01:31:59 right but was it also delivered to you verbally possible uh before demonstrations or something and that would come from a8 would it

01:32:10 and that would come from a8 would it no i don't recall ever being uh given a target from a8 right we fed them they didn't feed us

01:32:21 right we fed them they didn't feed us right thank you i might ask you about that a little bit more in a moment um

01:32:30 a number of officers deployed into the swp

01:32:32 swp during your time at the sds we know for example that hn 354 um went into the waldenster branch of the swp

01:32:43 the swp um

01:32:45 um does the fact that he infiltrated the waldenstowe branch indicated anything of any particular significance about that branch

01:32:56 branch or was it simply that there was a geographical spread of sw depletes deployments around london can you recall yes it would be the latter reason so just a geographical spirit

01:33:19 the extreme right wing you say in your witness statement that it was not but that the sds had it in mind that it might be

01:33:25 might be in due course and you say that your recollection was that this was a high-level policy decision

01:33:34 decision but i was too junior to be part of

01:33:36 part of that

01:33:37 that can can you assist us with why there was a high level policy decision in the 70s not to infiltrate the extreme right wing

01:33:56 uh not really i had ideas it it was

01:34:00 it it was a very violent section

01:34:04 section and it was often involved in crime so to put an undercover officer into that

01:34:12 that would be very very very difficult also uh it was felt that a lot of information about the right-wing activities

01:34:26 activities was actually available through the left wing because they were particularly interested in what the right wing we're doing

01:34:32 doing right

01:34:33 right thank you

01:34:35 thank you um

01:34:37 um specific

01:34:38 specific tasking requests um in your witness statement you deal with the channels through which specific requests for intelligence were

01:34:49 requests for intelligence were communicated and you said they would come through internal channels via senior officers then into the sds and you would act accordingly

01:35:07 accordingly and by internal challenge channels you mean a senior sds officer or an exceptional circumstances to you

01:35:08 you requests from the security services you say received by at least a superintendent

01:35:20 superintendent uh superintendent in which squad in do you mean an s squad no i

01:35:24 no i i'm not

01:35:34 i can't recall any requests from the security service going direct to us in sds

01:35:35 sds if if there was direct uh

01:35:41 direct uh an immediate request it would have gone through the the squad concern so most of our business was with c squads so i'd expect it to come through the superintendent of c squad and how was

01:35:56 superintendent of c squad and how was that uh information then fed into the sds so the superintendency squad receives the tasking risking from the security services and then how was that fed into the sds

01:36:17 and then how was that fed into the sds i suspect verbally and it would be noted on the minute sheet that so-and-so was informed and action was taken and to whom would that um request come to you or to mike ferguson or to both of you who ever was there yes right

01:36:29 right can you recall how frequently the security services um uh sent in requests for tossing a specific one i can't

01:36:38 i can't yeah

01:36:44 yeah what was it sort of a number of times a week or or i really can't tell because they dealt with c squad chief superintendent not with sds i mean we were cut off really were you aware

01:36:56 were cut off really were you aware when you received tasking requests of who the ultimate customer was if it came through that channel through c score would you have known whether that was a c squad request or a security service request

01:37:07 service request most probably yes right

01:37:12 um requests from other

01:37:15 other uh police departments what was the route um into the sds uh please so so for example if you had a request from

01:37:26 had a request from sea squad

01:37:32 actor and as a so it's a police request um what a rank of officer will be doing the requesting would that be the superintendent also you say please request what outside

01:37:46 you say please request what outside special branch no sorry i mean special branch

01:37:47 branch requests would that be the rank of superintendent that would have that would make the request or even the chief um and uh thereafter did it follow the

01:38:00 um and uh thereafter did it follow the same pattern that would be communicated to

01:38:01 to either to you or to mike ferguson um verbally or or or written well we we had meetings with

01:38:13 had meetings with our own superintendent and uh

01:38:15 and uh every day

01:38:16 every day and chief superintendent and those sort of things would be discussed and i i should think

01:38:29 nearly all of them were verbal because we're talking in general about where we can locate our offices rather than dealing with a specific request

01:38:49 so there'll be general discussions on what's going on what what is the flavor of the month and um take it from there so a lot of it wouldn't be a formal minute from the superintendent

01:39:04 the superintendent you had uh daily meetings you say with your superintendents that's the superintendent of ask what is it yes and during those um daily meetings telstra requests and things of that nature were discussed

01:39:16 things of that nature were discussed between you is that right oh absolutely um and

01:39:18 um and you you say that there would be a conversation about what was the flavor of the month and how to service those requests is that right whether we could or not yes um

01:39:31 whether we could or not yes um does it follow that there was a discretion to decline a tasking request um at the sds level if you weren't able to oh absolutely

01:39:47 to oh absolutely and very often we didn't have anyone who could help in that situation um

01:39:48 um a8

01:39:52 a8 and the uniform and the uniform public order unit um

01:40:00 um you say you didn't receive tasking requests from them is that right as far as i'm aware yes um but you supplied information to a8 yes but via the

01:40:11 yes but via the the squad uh right so he went to see squad normally right

01:40:14 right uh uh thank you uh um and was that about specific events that you uh that this occasionally we would have direct contact with a8

01:40:29 contact with a8 uh if it's if we got information about numbers

01:40:30 numbers for a particular demonstration in the immediate future in other words it had to be quickly communicated so

01:40:42 it had to be quickly communicated so that the local police or whatever could be prepared uh for

01:40:45 uh for the situation and that was that did you use the telephone for the community and that sort of thing yes so be done by phone right thank you

01:40:55 thank you um

01:40:58 overall sds supervision

01:41:08 you have the uh daily meetings with your uh superintendent that took place in the sds office is that right they would come to you

01:41:16 to you um and you say that was to discuss problems or progress

01:41:23 progress how long did those meetings typically last can you recall it would depend uh on what was happening i mean the a lot of the conversation would be generalities

01:41:36 generalities because you're always looking to the future

01:41:40 future targeting was never done instantly

01:41:41 instantly it had to be plotted and planned

01:41:49 and the feasibility had to be examined so

01:41:51 so in these

01:41:58 in these daily conversations it would cover all sorts of topics subjects um

01:42:00 um you

01:42:04 you during the course of those meetings did you provide feedback about the activities of the uh ucos in the sts to the

01:42:12 the superintendent only if it was significant i mean it's not the daily report saying joe blog says very well thank you right

01:42:23 right um

01:42:32 and if there was something significant would that be likely to be an oral um

01:42:36 um report or would he put that into writing a bare discussion initially yes and if it was something serious it would be put on paper

01:42:53 if there were difficulties encountered with an undercover officer were you required to run that by the senior managers the superintendents no no so

01:43:05 managers the superintendents no no so that was something you could deal with internally true

01:43:08 true um

01:43:10 um progress report you said you discussed problems or progress

01:43:17 progress what what do you mean by progress

01:43:21 progress i'm not sure what i meant can you um

01:43:26 um what you say is let me just find the paragraph and i'll read it to you

01:43:39 it's your paragraph 102 the superintendent and or the true superintendent will be in the sds office daily to see me and or the detective

01:43:50 daily to see me and or the detective chief inspector to just discuss problems or progress well exactly what i've just said to you we've discussed the current situation

01:44:01 we've discussed the current situation and uh into the future right thank you very much

01:44:03 very much um

01:44:13 would you have characterized um sds supervision uh by

01:44:20 uh by your superintendent as close supervision or or not

01:44:29 or or not uh as far as the direction the squad was concerned yes i would say it was close but actually on day-to-day dealings with the individuals no it wasn't that was down to

01:44:40 that was down to the chief inspector and myself right thank you

01:44:42 thank you um

01:44:54 authorizations um from uh senior managers who want to just talk about the limits of your sort of your autonomy if a

01:44:57 if a uco was to be withdrawn

01:45:00 withdrawn from the field did that require the authorization of any senior manager outside the sds well it would do it

01:45:11 it well the the the process would go through senior management right uh the actual uh the reasons

01:45:22 the reasons may not be given to senior management involved because there was a very strong need to know policy uh during my time so that sds could make the decision

01:45:36 so that sds could make the decision but the process that had to be followed then had to be sent up the chain is that that right because sds was part of their squad and their squad had a superintendent and

01:45:48 their squad had a superintendent and also chief superintendent so it would go far then

01:45:49 far then um how about recruitment of a new

01:45:55 a new undercover officer would that have required

01:45:56 required authorization from senior managers well yes uh to to get a posting to a different squad it had to go through a process

01:46:11 go through a process um how about uh the deployment direction of a new uco um i just want to just understand what

01:46:26 um i just want to just understand what what influence the sds may have had on where an officer was deployed we know for example that hn 96

01:46:33 hn 96 began his service in uh during your time at the sds in october 1978 and he was deployed into the swp and he's said to have been replacing another officer

01:46:49 another officer who was being withdrawn from the swp that sort of deployment decision where somebody is replacing another officer

01:46:59 officer is that the sort of deployment decision which would have required any sort of

01:47:10 which would have required any sort of sign off by senior management or is that something that you would have had the autonomy to do yourself senior management would know that uh so-so is going into a particular area and that would have been discussed as as i said in our daily meetings

01:47:26 no they they would accept the advice of the

01:47:27 the chief inspector

01:47:36 hn 106 in case you just need to reduce can you remember who he is it don't say the name but i just want you to

01:47:49 recollect who he was he says in his witness statement he wasn't directed to any particular group but was told to focus generally on the far far left and find another group other than the swp which was worth

01:48:01 swp which was worth targeting

01:48:09 targeting was that an instruction that would have been simply issued by sds managers or would that have come further up the chain no

01:48:10 chain no okay

01:48:12 okay thank you

01:48:13 thank you um

01:48:19 traveling outside the metropolitan uh police

01:48:21 police area

01:48:27 area we know that you traveled with detective sergeant richard walker to blackburn to accompany four sds officers to a demonstration there

01:48:33 there is that the sort of thing that would have required authorization by senior managers well very much so because the chief constable of the force concerned would have to be involved um

01:48:45 would have to be involved um whilst we're on this one i just want to ask you just a couple of questions about it can we have up on the screen please mps

01:48:51 mps 0730728

01:49:01 uh um

01:49:12 uh the the the initial uh notes uh from jeffrey kraft so at least four of our sds field officers under heavy pressure from their organization to take part a demonstration in blackburn and refusal on their part would undoubtedly put their cover at risk it's proposed therefore that they'd be

01:49:24 proposed therefore that they'd be instructed to join their colleagues in a day's activity and that di macintosh and ds walker travel to blackburn on the saturday morning to be on hand should any difficulty

01:49:35 any difficulty arise

01:49:41 arise the purpose of your traveling to blackburn appears to be to safeguard those officers so that you could step in should any difficulty come up during the course of that demonstration is that right that's correct

01:49:51 correct um

01:49:52 um what would local police be told about your presence or would they be told anything at all about your presence there well as i said the chief constable or

01:50:05 well as i said the chief constable or his deputy would have been informed and uh we

01:50:10 uh we liaised with their special products uh blackburn would be lancashire right um you can take that down now please uh and can we have up on the screen mps0730729

01:50:29 this is a letter of

01:50:31 letter of thanks

01:50:33 thanks from the

01:50:38 from the lancashire police headquarters um

01:50:40 um the second paragraph the demonstration was concluded without any serious incident and the assistance of your detective inspector mcintosh and detective sergeant walker is very much uh appreciated

01:50:51 uh appreciated um

01:50:52 um what

01:50:55 what what sort of assistance do you would you have

01:50:56 have given to the well that in my mind is just a very polite letter in fact

01:51:08 in fact our presence was sitting in an office hoping that the right wing hadn't attacked the left wing and then injured any of our officers right and that was basically it right so it it

01:51:21 it it that looks as if it's simply a form of words that's used to acknowledge your presence yes thank you very much you can take that down

01:51:42 um at recruitment uh you say that you were involved in the recruitment of undercover officers and you list the particular qualities you were looking for

01:51:53 looking for when you made that decision you you say that you you're had a preference for stable reliable mentally relaxed and dependable uh

01:51:59 uh ucos

01:52:00 ucos amateur dramatic enthuse us because essentially you were asking them to be actors in their role

01:52:08 role um

01:52:13 recommendations you said would often come through the back office sergeants who is it through people that they had known during the course of their previous police career in the special branch yes

01:52:29 i expect and understand it most probably came through at that level because they are officers who actually knew

01:52:35 knew the young

01:52:36 the young new officers whereas i mean i i'd been in special branch something like 12 years by the time i was at di

01:52:47 was at di and i didn't know many of the individuals particularly as part of my time had been away from london anyhow and

01:52:59 and did you once you received a name or a tip off about somebody who might be a suitable candidate did you then ask around about that person generally in special branch yes we did

01:53:10 special branch yes we did um you say in your witness statement you would have asked their superior officers about

01:53:18 about them did you also speak to their contemporaries no

01:53:23 no we couldn't really um

01:53:26 um i mean

01:53:27 i mean if they're contemporaries you've got the the problem is in special branches uh or was

01:53:35 uh or was it was a very small department and uh therefore you had lots of little cliques

01:53:45 cliques and to find out about a particular individual anything of real value uh

01:53:54 uh you couldn't afford to go into that clique because it wouldn't be a good assessment whereas

01:54:02 whereas the other officers in the back office could

01:54:03 could because they knew colleagues of that era so that was something that was sort of informally delegated was it oh absolutely

01:54:14 absolutely because um in general in in special branch at that time no one

01:54:21 no one outside sds knew what exactly they were doing they knew that people disappeared for a number of years

01:54:33 years and on very odd occasions were brought into the yard because they had to be seen in the yard and they all were very scruffy

01:54:41 scruffy uh um

01:54:42 uh um you i think you say in your witness statement that special branch was a was like a family you repeated it sort of a small

01:54:48 small as uh yes was it did your reputation sort of travel

01:54:59 did your reputation sort of travel around special branch you would you could find out about somebody's reputation relatively easily well

01:55:00 well to some extent but it depends on the

01:55:11 to some extent but it depends on the individual and how prepared they are to talk about their private life so you only got a reputation maybe

01:55:12 maybe as seen from a professional eye

01:55:19 if we've heard that various officers had had reputations in special branch for being

01:55:24 being uh womanizers uh

01:55:30 uh is that the sort of reputation which would have affected your view as to their suitability during your inquiries it would but it would depend exactly

01:55:41 it would but it would depend exactly what the reputation the basis of the reputation i mean to be quite frank a lot of there was a lot of banter it's a band of men or it was in those days and in any

01:55:57 men or it was in those days and in any institution where it's all male there is always banter and i dare say there may be

01:56:00 be similar banter amongst women i don't know

01:56:01 know um

01:56:02 um and

01:56:03 and when you got banter you often had people rather like the social media saying things in fact they hadn't done or wouldn't do

01:56:20 or wouldn't do but were keeping in with the crowd so you had to be very careful making an assessment purely on banter so that wasn't necessarily something that you would have taken terribly

01:56:26 terribly seriously well in one way we would because you don't want an uh an

01:56:38 because you don't want an uh an individual who you knew was likely to behave in such a manner in close contact with women yes it would be an important feature um

01:56:53 hn155 and if you need to re refer to the list that you've got then i

01:56:58 he describes

01:57:00 describes um mike ferguson firing questions at him prior to his deployment to ensure that he was prepared for it yes was that something

01:57:14 prepared for it yes was that something common did mike ferguson tend to do that with ucos when they first started uh jeff craft as well i mean that was part of the job was to

01:57:26 of the job was to make sure they're prepared to go out and test their cover story and all the aspects with it yes and would that have touched on do you think

01:57:36 think uh the risk of engaging any sort of sexual relationship that's awesome i i mean he was an experienced field officer at one time

01:57:48 um a major factor in their suitability you say in your witness statement um

01:57:57 um was

01:57:58 was the marital status of the undercover officer or potential undercover officer um

01:58:14 um because there was an appreciation that undercover life was a difficult one and domestic stability was very important

01:58:17 important um

01:58:19 um you

01:58:23 you say that you spoke always spoke to the spouse or the uh partner of an undercover officer to assess how

01:58:35 an undercover officer to assess how acceptable a new way of life would be in respect of their domestic life

01:58:37 life how would you assess that

01:58:50 well we spoke on on the occasions we did meet the officer's wife

01:58:54 wife it was

01:58:55 it was prior to them going out so

01:59:05 one of the main purposes of these meetings was actually to introduce ourselves to the lady make it abundantly clear that we were available

01:59:12 available at all times should they have any problem and and that was the main objective of meeting

01:59:24 how would you assess whether the pressured and difficult role of the uco would be one that their domestic life could withstand

01:59:35 could withstand you couldn't really you had to accept what the good lady was saying to you um

01:59:48 um i i mean you you can only inquire about domestic situations uh

01:59:54 uh we certainly didn't investigate them uh um

01:59:55 uh um what what

01:59:56 what what what did you say to the the spouse or the uh partner about the life that their

02:00:10 the life that their partner was going to undertake what what were you able to say to them about it well

02:00:17 well basically that um they would be working long hours and a lot of it would be evening work and

02:00:26 you wouldn't be seeing your husband for a very long period um so it was largely about the absences from the

02:00:33 from the yes

02:00:34 yes general welfare really a acquainting them with what the circumstances may involve and b

02:00:48 and b to reassure them that they had two

02:00:53 two two numbers two officers two approach and hopefully we came over as understanding caring individuals to give them confidence to contact us and did you

02:01:08 and did you give them any sort of indication of the sorts of risks that there might be involved

02:01:10 involved in their husbands deployments um and you did you assist them with how to raise a concern if they were worried about something with their husbands and

02:01:22 about something with their husbands and the sort of things that might have been of concern

02:01:30 other than introducing ourselves and saying we were open

02:01:35 open 24 hours a day for any problem um

02:01:41 um you say in your witness statement you wanted to gain their trust

02:01:44 trust what was the purpose of that for you whose trust the the spouse he wants to gain the trust of the spouse first what was what was the purpose of gaining their trust as i said welfare reasons if they had

02:02:00 as i said welfare reasons if they had problems they could contact us and we could

02:02:00 could sort it

02:02:02 sort it out um

02:02:13 you you also uh say that a stable domestic life or their marital uh it was likely to reduce the temptations of any sexual liaison whilst undercover was that a reason

02:02:24 whilst undercover was that a reason one of the other reasons why you would have a preference for a married officer absolutely um

02:02:32 um so the temptation of a sexual liaison undercover was a risk that was actively considered is that right of course facts of life

02:02:41 of life um

02:02:43 um what was that explained to the undercover officer or to their spouse when they were recruited that anxiety

02:02:56 that anxiety certainly not to the spouse we wouldn't say to her you realize that there's an opportunity that he might have a sexual relationship no

02:03:10 um did you have any ongoing contact with the spouse during the course of the undercover officer's deployment i can't recall it i can't so it wasn't a question of

02:03:24 i can't so it wasn't a question of checking in with them occasionally oh far from not no definitely not um simply that they could phone you or anything to arise open door policy um we

02:03:39 um we understand that hn 354 vince harvey's a long-standing relationship broke down during the course of his deployment was that something

02:03:58 was that something that you or mike ferguson were aware of i can't speak for mike ferguson but i certainly wasn't and in fact when i learned of this inquiry and his behavior i was amazed if you had learnt of that

02:04:11 if you had learnt of that would that have concerned you that he was no longer that he was a single man oh absolutely absolutely security risk

02:04:26 oh absolutely absolutely security risk and what would you have done about it do you think well i i would have expected uh

02:04:27 uh the

02:04:28 the chief inspector to have him withdrawn and the matter certainly would have been taken up to the superintendent chief superintendent level right without a doubt right

02:04:42 doubt right thank you very much so i wonder if that's a

02:04:45 that's a suitable moment at which to have a break certainly it would be we will now have a quarter of an hour's break um if at any sta stage while you're giving evidence which is quite a long process

02:04:56 long process you want a further break all you have to do is is to say so and we will comment

02:05:01 we'll adjourn for 15 minutes

02:20:55 all rise please

02:21:26 mr mcintosh can i just take you back to your last answer because i i don't want there to be any uh confusion about it hn 354 vince harvey we understand his relationship broke down at the core during the course of his deployment and

02:21:37 and you said you didn't have any idea of that

02:21:38 that the relationship breakdown i then asked if you had known about the relationship breakdown

02:21:45 breakdown would that have concerned you i wonder if you could just revisit your answer

02:21:55 answer uh yes i i should make it clear i was referring to um his relationship whilst out in the field that that's what i meant previous that's what i wanted to clarify with you um

02:22:09 what i wanted to clarify with you um so can we just go back over that please had you known about his the relationship his long-term relationship breakdown as when he was deployed with that in and

02:22:20 as when he was deployed with that in and of itself being something that concerned you

02:22:22 you it would have done but um what it certainly would have done because i i firmly believed it was better to recruit married men and

02:22:36 married men and vince harvey was a single man someone considered that he would be an exception um

02:22:48 had you known about the breakdown of that relationship would it have concern what would you have done about it

02:23:00 um i'm not certainly it's it's hard to go back to some extent i'd most probably have looked at it from a welfare point of view completely because it was nothing to do

02:23:15 because it was nothing to do indirectly it was to do with his most probably his working uh

02:23:16 uh duties

02:23:20 duties on the other hand it was purely a domestic matter and it was too late to withdraw him from the field because he wasn't married um

02:23:35 um now i would only have dealt with it as a welfare matter to see if i could assist either party was the fact that he was not married and single albeit in a long-term relationship something that concerned you when he was coming into the unit

02:23:47 the unit yes

02:23:48 yes because i

02:23:54 because i personally thought married men were better a better risk and was that something that you expressed openly your reservations oh it wouldn't have been a secret uh particularly with my chief inspector because uh

02:24:12 chief inspector because uh it's general chitchat you know no secrets uh professionally thank you

02:24:18 thank you moving on now please to cover identities um

02:24:19 um you said that you did not have any role in the inventing developing or assessing of cover identities but you did have an advisory role

02:24:36 but you did have an advisory role in the building of cover identities um

02:24:40 um what do you mean by advisory can you recall

02:24:46 recall well i i certainly believed in the system of

02:24:48 system of getting

02:24:53 the birth certificates of very young children who had died and why did you believe in that system why well i'd heard of the system

02:25:06 why well i'd heard of the system it wasn't a secret system at all it was in the public eye if you read books and stuff like that um

02:25:14 um it seemed a good system from the point of view it gave them a a definite date of birth and a birthday certificate um

02:25:28 um for the casual look nothing was computerized in those days i didn't think it had well and i've been proved wrong but i

02:25:39 well and i've been proved wrong but i didn't think it had any risk of exposure the chances were so long that

02:25:45 that to me it wasn't a risk and therefore i didn't think it could cause any embarrassment to the deceased parents relatives um

02:25:52 um does it follow that at the time you you didn't consider any um ethical implications of using the identity of

02:26:06 the identity of a child who had died um

02:26:08 um can you recall any any active consideration of the ethics of that

02:26:14 of that tactic

02:26:17 tactic um

02:26:18 um of course

02:26:19 of course the families are now aware that the identities of their uh children have been used does it cause you now to question the ethics of of

02:26:32 you now to question the ethics of of using that tactic no i don't go back at all on my views i think it's most unfortunate that this inquiry has enabled

02:26:43 enabled the poor families and relatives to realize that this has happened in normal circumstances it wouldn't have happened i mean it's extraordinary

02:26:54 extraordinary um

02:27:03 hn 80 now in his witness statements uh he said

02:27:04 said that

02:27:11 that using the full details of a real child uh caused him uh distress and so whilst he did uh obtain a birth certificate of a real child

02:27:25 real child he changed the first name were you aware of that no can i say who the person was yes hn 80 sorry yes of course

02:27:45 yeah i certainly wasn't aware of that thank you

02:27:50 hn297 uh rick clark whose name is uh are open uh um your period of deployment

02:28:03 uh um your period of deployment overlapped with him for a certain period i think he came out in september 1976.

02:28:10 can you recall him being withdrawn from the sds uh

02:28:12 sds uh no i can't actually and i don't know why because it's uh an

02:28:20 an event of great significance operationally i do recall being

02:28:27 being present

02:28:28 present outside the pub with the

02:28:34 with the surveillance team and that because we knew that

02:28:36 knew that this particular officer had been um

02:28:45 uncovered so you you think and sorry

02:28:51 and we feared uh that as a result this follow-up meeting there could be violence or whatever and that's all i knew

02:29:07 i didn't know any details of it so i i presume that jeff kraft had dealt with it with another uh backroom staff which accounts

02:29:22 which accounts as i said at the beginning of the my

02:29:23 my interview

02:29:25 interview i don't recall working with jeff yeah

02:29:34 jeff yeah um but you you were aware of a potential compromise in rick clark's case absolutely yes and were you aware that that potential compromise uh was the birth and the death certificate that he was presented with

02:29:49 that he was presented with um i'm not sure whether i was but i'm certainly aware now um

02:29:53 um did that

02:29:57 did that as you understood it potential compromise um

02:29:59 um prompt any kind of review or rethinking of the practice of using the identities of children who'd

02:30:10 of children who'd that you could recall i don't recall it but i'm sure it did it and particularly how how it occurred i mean

02:30:16 mean what was the circumstances we did know that there were certain organizations which had very severe security checks hence the reason why

02:30:36 hence the reason why for all undercover officers we had strong background stories how uh or why the organization felt

02:30:43 felt or knew i i don't know but um to be able to do that they must have gone up to um

02:30:55 um some said house or some catherine's house whichever was holding the records and done all the searches

02:31:01 searches to prove this so very strange in my mind so

02:31:15 very strange in my mind so in answer to your question without doubt we would have been very concerned and looked at the whole practice as to the way forward but it's not something his compromise was not something that you

02:31:22 you think you were told about i'm sure

02:31:33 i'm sure i i wasn't uh told about it other than he had been exposed um

02:31:47 i'll deal with it now because it because we're dealing with 297. um

02:31:55 one of the officers undercover officers indicates that he had heard from rick clark that the reason for his compromise was his

02:32:06 was his sexual dalliances did you hear anything uh like that or were you wearing anything like that i did

02:32:12 did i wasn't aware of his talents right i'll deal with that a little later in a bit more uh detail um

02:32:23 um uh supervision of the undercover officers you described interrupting them moving from the um

02:32:42 moving from the um exposure of uh rick clark hn 297 there's a question i would like to please you remember going to a pub and

02:32:44 a pub and in effect

02:32:46 in effect performing a surveillance and if necessary protection role for rick clark who was inside the pub yes meeting yep and

02:33:04 yes meeting yep and you understood him to be meeting people who were going to confront him well i'll take the issue on presumably he he had been confronted at some time otherwise

02:33:10 otherwise we wouldn't have known he had been exposed right so you knew he'd been exposed

02:33:21 exposed no i i'm sorry chairman i'm saying that we wouldn't be keeping surveillance on this meeting unless we knew that he had been exposed yes and because of that we fed for his

02:33:32 fed for his safety

02:33:37 safety so you did know he'd been exposed i yes i've been told that

02:33:46 by members of a group or one of the groups that he'd infiltrated

02:33:56 i'm sorry i i was told that presumably by a member of the office not by the group of course not but he had been exposed by someone in a group that he had something to do with his partner absolutely yes

02:34:14 did you attend outside the pub alone or with other people no we were there were several of us including uh members of the surveillance the special branch surveillance team

02:34:26 branch surveillance team anyone else from the sds not that i'm aware of yes

02:34:39 other than the back uh the

02:34:44 chief inspector or or maybe someone in the back office

02:34:52 so your recollection is that the chief inspector or someone in the back office was with well someone told me that this meeting was going to take place and it was decided because we feared

02:35:06 that the officer was in danger or could be in danger that

02:35:09 that surveillance and our presence was around there right um

02:35:14 um yesterday uh i was told by uh jeff kraft that he had been outside the pub with derrick neal

02:35:36 well i i can't comment on that sir because i don't recall

02:35:37 recall i personally don't recall being out on a operation with derrick neal

02:35:47 neal he was the superintendent i think at the time

02:36:03 it may be that the truth although neither of you remember it is that you and jeff kraft were there if you had asked

02:36:11 asked earlier on sir that would have been my answer right yes so your your rec as best as you can remember the best i can remember it was you and jeff greg

02:36:23 can remember it was you and jeff greg yes i certainly can't recall being out with the superintendent

02:36:50 your primary uh concern as the di at the sts was that you say the morale and safety

02:36:51 safety of the individual officers in the day-to-day their day-to-day running and uh welfare and i just want to explore what that meant uh in practice and how closely

02:37:02 meant uh in practice and how closely officers were monitored or supervised um you you say in your witnesses when you had uh weekly meetings we we've

02:37:15 you had uh weekly meetings we we've heard in fact they were twice weekly meetings is that is that right yes um

02:37:16 um and also there were what were their daily telephone conversations from the officers they phoned in every day yes i just want to deal with the telephone conversations first

02:37:31 conversations first what what was their purpose what was the reason for the daily telephone conversation

02:37:37 today they were still with us right so it was what was there was an update on their it was a welfare check was it well it's a mixture of in the police force we used to have to

02:37:53 force we used to have to check in every day and check off every day

02:37:59 day in these circumstances they didn't phone to check off because of their job um over the uh telephone call would you receive an update on their the daily activity of the undercover officer or not no not necessarily

02:38:11 not no not necessarily and would you ask them for any sort of progress report about what they've been doing or no no i'd be interested in their welfare that they were okay and everything was taking over

02:38:26 everything was taking over and so the the day-to-day their their day-to-day activities would you have been aware of them where they were going what they were doing not in detail no um

02:38:37 um the

02:38:41 the twice weekly meetings these took place at the safe house we understand and that those were meetings that you attended with mike ferguson is that right um

02:38:54 um did you meet all the officers together at some stage yes no

02:39:00 yes no the safe houses had uh more than one room

02:39:02 room and uh

02:39:04 and uh very often mike ferguson would go into the room where all the officers were writing up

02:39:16 where all the officers were writing up their notes or doing whatever and i'd be in a separate room because we had to keep diaries we had to vet their expenses and stuff like that so i'd be doing that side of the job and

02:39:30 and mike ferguson was normally would

02:39:31 would normally be there for general chat or taking individuals aside to deal with whatever was current

02:39:43 whatever was current were you present during the the general chat that you can recall very very seldom very soon so you were dealing with the sort of admin paperwork were you in a side room

02:39:53 side room um

02:39:56 um mike ferguson would be in the in the main in the main sitting area with the with the officers yes it'd be in and out according to the day's

02:40:04 the day's requirements the you also or mike ferguson spoke to them individually did you speak to them individually on occasions yes

02:40:15 on occasions yes and during those individual conversations did you um take an account of their activities what they've been doing over the the past few

02:40:27 they've been doing over the the past few days since you'd last had a face-to-face meeting with them yes

02:40:38 would normally day time be looking after their covered story in other words place of work and activities and that um

02:40:41 um and then their involvement at other times in the evenings um and would they tell you then which demonstrations they've been to or which

02:40:52 demonstrations they've been to or which meetings they've been to are matters of that nature they would report actually uh they would draft it out and they the draft would be turned into a report

02:41:06 turned into a report and so at those meetings they had already drafted had they um

02:41:08 um well it depended on the individual some had already done it others did it uh during the meeting or side of the meeting

02:41:18 meeting and you took their notes or their reports from them did you to process back in the background they were collected yep um

02:41:27 um was it at the safe house during these meetings that individual officers were given their tasking

02:41:39 if a request had come in for a particular brand of intelligence on a particular group or event

02:41:50 group or event it would be down uh they would be given it at the safe house would and would that be a verbal instruction from you verbal yes yes and both you and mike ferguson involved in that process or

02:42:04 um

02:42:09 would you and mike ferguson have had a general awareness of the day-to-day activities of the undercover officers that you were looking after well only a general

02:42:26 we didn't go out spying on them um

02:42:33 um overtime claims is that something that you had to deal with yes um

02:42:34 um from their overtime claims could you have built up an idea of the hours that officers were working

02:42:43 working oh yes

02:42:44 oh yes um

02:42:45 um i was

02:42:47 i was lengthy hours if someone was working lengthy hours would that be some of some concern

02:42:54 concern well it was concerned for two reasons one one was welfare and the other reason was the cost right

02:43:06 right um

02:43:09 um hn354

02:43:11 hn354 has uh i i think told us that he was working seven days a week 14 hours a day and rarely took a a day off

02:43:25 a a day off would you have offered any sort of words of advice about those sorts of lengthy hours to the office of concern because there was tremendous pressure at the time from the

02:43:38 the time from the from scotland yard as a whole on overtime

02:43:40 overtime and so the the pressure was passed down through the management line and

02:43:51 and everyone was required to try and curtail over time

02:43:55 over time this particular job it was virtually impossible to curtail it so that the sort of overarching management concern was the money

02:44:08 management concern was the money but your concern was also the welfare of the officers is that right oh absolutely right um and i have to stress that the uh there was tremendous pressure from outside to reduce it

02:44:25 because of the cost and in my mind it didn't consider the job being done but

02:44:31 but personally i i was very concerned of the long hours but i couldn't see a way of actually reducing it without jeopardizing their cover

02:44:39 cover what were your concerns about them working long hours what sort of welfare concerns did you have meant that they weren't ever getting home and being with their wives and children

02:44:55 was there any concern that they were becoming too close to their individuals in their target group was that something that occurred to you it no it wasn't one uh

02:45:09 it no it wasn't one uh voice do i have to say um there's always a risk of that and it's very hard to actually control because if you're not there or got witness of what people are doing it's very hard to actually say

02:45:22 very hard to actually say other than where's the evidence that they're not doing what they say they're doing

02:45:28 doing um

02:45:29 um did

02:45:33 did you build up a close relationship with the

02:45:38 the officers in the sds during your time there

02:45:40 there i like to feel that i did

02:45:46 um and

02:45:50 and did you feel the relationship that was such that it would encourage any disclosure of any concerns they might

02:46:02 disclosure of any concerns they might have had the officers to you was it that sort of relationship they could discuss problems that they had but we have to acknowledge that

02:46:12 some of the problems they might have which may have been self-induced they wouldn't tell a senior officer i mean it

02:46:22 i mean it although there are undercover officers they are police officers and

02:46:24 and there is

02:46:29 there is or was then a very strict discipline and respect for rank and

02:46:32 and the sds was exceptional i say exceptional but maybe special branch was different to the main police force

02:46:49 force but outside you never refer to anyone of rank above you by their first name in the sds that rule wasn't enforced because we wanted to gain their confidence so that we would be told

02:47:01 be told what

02:47:02 what any problem was but if uh

02:47:13 but if uh i wouldn't expect them to say i'm having a problem i'm sleeping with a member of the group that was not something you would have expected them to say to you certainly not because

02:47:25 certainly not because i think they would feel and i would agree with them imprints it could jeopardize their whole career um how about mike ferguson was he the sort did he build up a close

02:47:37 sort did he build up a close relationship with uh oh he did exactly the same yes and was he the sort of man who could be confided in about difficulties that were being encountered with the caveat that sexual relationships use you think were off the

02:47:57 relationships use you think were off the table i've had absolutely no doubt about that he he was a man's man thank you

02:47:58 thank you um

02:48:01 um and did they come to you with problems the undercover officers that you can recall i don't need to know the details of them but well yes yes but i have to say i don't remember many domestic problems

02:48:21 um it's uh clear from your uh witness statement that you were aware of the risk that undercover officers might engage in sexual contact in their undercover

02:48:32 undercover identities and one of the steps you took to mitigate that risk was the preference for officers that were married would that be a would that be fair be fair yes

02:48:49 um that risk was that a serious concern for the sds do you think yes but from the security angle of the whole operation

02:49:01 whole operation that was going to be my next question what why was it considered to be a serious risk why yes because if you've got that close sort of relationship

02:49:16 relationship you might let slip something and i guess you having said that rick clark had been

02:49:23 been involved with women that most probably was how it came out i don't know um

02:49:23 um so it was the the anxiety for the sds you say was the was that this could jeopardize the

02:49:35 was that this could jeopardize the operation of a whole security of the operation

02:49:40 um did you

02:49:44 did you also consider that an officer engaging in

02:49:49 in sexual activity in those circumstances was abusing his uh position and his and his power at that time not at all no

02:49:58 at all no i i uh would have viewed it as if you take away the discipline side of something which is

02:50:10 something which is between male and female or of whatever sex

02:50:11 sex and things happen and

02:50:14 and the mental track of that is down to the individual

02:50:30 um you say in your witness statement that there were discussions about uh the issue of girlfriends for these uh undercover officers who were posing as

02:50:38 as single men are in their target groups because it made it difficult for them

02:50:50 for them when dealing with female members of their group um

02:50:52 um was that something that the undercover officers brought up with you at the safe house can you remember oh yes yes and

02:51:03 and was that something that mike ferguson would also have been aware of or other officers presence yes yes uh um

02:51:19 and was that something that was shared outside the sds with any going into superintendent

02:51:24 because we were looking for ways of solving the problem but it was felt um impractical to or

02:51:39 or yes operationally practical thank you for bringing in uh um thank you uh i i'm at risk factors

02:51:52 that may have increased the risk of sexual activity being undertaken we've mentioned also the long hours work was alcohol we mentioned also alcohol um a personal relationship with

02:52:04 um a personal relationship with activists was that considered to be a risk factor when i don't trying to

02:52:15 a risk factor when i don't trying to identify when people might succumb to a sexual relationship if they were building up close relationships with members of their target group

02:52:22 well

02:52:30 it's difficult to answer because we're talking about human relations and um

02:52:36 and um yes there is a risk there's a risk of um

02:52:37 um this sort of behavior in any circumstances in any large group institution whatever

02:52:49 whatever and was that something that you tried to monitor through your conversations with the undercover officers we tried to sense that but it's not something they would talk about to be quite honest

02:53:05 to be quite honest and how about uh social activities that they might be undertaking with members of their target group was that something that you try to get a sense of through your conversations with the undercover officers in the safe house

02:53:16 house well not from a sexual point of view now

02:53:25 the participation in social activities uh

02:53:31 uh was all necessary as part of their cover and it's very strange to have a member who doesn't partake in all the functions of the organization and how about the period of time that an undercover officer was deployed

02:53:44 that an undercover officer was deployed you you say your witness statement there was a four year maximum during your period and was that something you felt quite strongly about but that

02:53:59 quite strongly about but that actually i know it's four years but that includes the period in the back office learning the art etc and i used to think three years was maximum but of course there are always circumstances and pressures one way or

02:54:13 circumstances and pressures one way or the other where rules are bent i guess um

02:54:16 um and you say in your witness statement that that would avoid that absolute maximum would avoid the possibility of officers going rogue what did you mean by going rogue

02:54:29 what did you mean by going rogue well forgetting that they are actually police officers and therefore not acting as they should do

02:54:34 do and did you mean engaging in sexual activity with i meant across the board thank you

02:54:49 in his uh evidence hn 354 vince harvey um told us that he spoke to he thought um jeff kraft

02:55:02 um jeff kraft about an activist who'd expressed a sexual interest in him and asked his advice as to how to respond to that was that something that you were aware of no certainly not

02:55:25 did you consider that there might have been incentives for undercover officers to engage in sexual activity for example to enhance their

02:55:35 their cover that that might have been a difficulty none at all did you believe it would have would have enhanced their cover or not

02:55:46 it would in practice but we would never uh recommend that or encourage it and how about um enhancing their intelligence gathering

02:55:58 intelligence gathering capabilities that there might have been pressure on an officer to enhance that by the use of sexual activity

02:56:05 activity well in fact that may well be true but we didn't at any stage encourage or suggest it thank you

02:56:25 it's understood that the meetings at the safehouse had a dual purpose part of it was admin and

02:56:27 admin and tasking and matters of that nature but there was also a social purpose of it to keep the undercover officer sort of grounded in his real life and have an opportunity to

02:56:43 his real life and have an opportunity to relax with like-minded individuals going through the same sorts of things and have a bit of time off effectively and i want to ask you a little bit about that

02:56:50 that now was that something that you were a supporter of that that period of time when they could simply just relax and be themselves absolutely yes um and

02:57:01 um and was that once the sort of business side of the

02:57:02 of the uh

02:57:03 uh meetings was over war city relaxed an informal sort of atmosphere at the safe house as we've heard yes yes um

02:57:14 um and you've told us and it's been endorsed by officers that we've heard or heard from that the usual police hierarchies weren't so evident to the sds

02:57:30 weren't so evident to the sds and did you feel the the undercover officers were able to relax and be themselves with you and mike ferguson present we did uh

02:57:36 we did uh it was a important part i i think to see how they were behaving and as you rightly point out uh to give them an opportunity and uh

02:57:53 uh to give them an opportunity and uh an occasion where they they could talk to colleagues and remind themselves that they're still in the job which was very very important um

02:58:03 um would somebody make lunch for you all yes uh they would uh most probably in turns would do their own cooking and present a meal

02:58:14 present a meal and hn

02:58:20 and hn 304 has described those lunches as long and moist indicating that officers had a a drink or two can you remember that do you recognize that description of those lunches

02:58:39 well uh long i wouldn't deny moist i mean exactly does moist mean yes there was drinks i guess um but there was never and they couldn't afford to have any un excessive drinking

02:58:51 excessive drinking because uh all of them had cars or vans or whatever he also said it might be followed by a trip to the pub afterwards can you remember that well i wasn't part and parcel of that it certainly wasn't with the

02:59:06 certainly wasn't with the back office management right um

02:59:07 um you've uh described

02:59:20 that the culture of the of the um special branch at the time was very much a sort of well these were men together sds men together exchanging banter

02:59:26 banter jokes things of that nature and you've also uh said that very often there'll be sort of idle boasts about um sexual prowess and things of that

02:59:41 um sexual prowess and things of that nature would that be would that be right that would be quite right yes um and was that the the the the atmosphere at the safe house with these twelve men

02:59:53 these twelve men going through this well sort of thing laughing and joking exactly what the content was so would depend i suppose um

03:00:06 hn 304 has told us that often um activists in the target groups would be the boss of some of that sort of banter can you remember that sort of laughing and joking about activists or their groups

03:00:17 their groups i didn't uh i wasn't present for most of the banter went in the group i was dealing much more with the admin in a different room

03:00:37 more with the admin in a different room if uh i know occasions i did join the um the meal the lunch or whatever that sort of individual banter wasn't there it was generous

03:00:42 generous just general banter

03:00:45 banter there's no other word for it really

03:00:52 he also described that there were often jokes of of sexual nature which you i think you've accepted that was the sort of thing that would go on is that right yes

03:01:02 yes i couldn't deny that that most probably was

03:01:03 was um can you recall

03:01:13 recall anything uh said about activists in that regard no i certainly can't um

03:01:15 um sexual banter in front of you was that something that you were perfectly happy to to to

03:01:22 to to to it was something i'd been brought up with

03:01:26 with within the job not outside the gym right right

03:01:34 in particular we have heard that there were jokes about the

03:01:35 about the um

03:01:42 um sexual prowess of hn297 rick clarke um

03:01:50 hn 304 has said that there were managers present

03:01:52 present during conversations about rick clark and that managers couldn't have failed to have understood that hn2

03:02:06 that hn2 rick clarke was engaging in sexual activity

03:02:07 activity in his undercover role

03:02:13 role what what's your reaction to that well his perception is completely wrong were you aware that he'd engage in sexual activity in his undercover role no i certainly wasn't

03:02:27 no i certainly wasn't and can you can you remember any sort of banter that might have suggested that there was any sexual activity with him going on

03:02:38 we have been told that hn297 had a reputation as a womanizer does that does that surprise you a description of him like that i think a carnivore

03:02:47 carnivore a very uh

03:02:52 a very uh confident outgoing person and um

03:02:58 and um to me he was the type who would brag about anything he may well have been a womanizer but i had no indication at all

03:03:11 but i had no indication at all that he was indulging in such behavior whilst on duty um the sort of person who would have bragged about sexual conquest was he that's right yes um

03:03:21 um does it surprise you to know now that he had sex with at least four women whilst he was undercover in the sds does it surprise me

03:03:33 um

03:03:38 i don't know really whether it does surprise me or not i'm so used to being in the police for nearly 40 odd years hearing about people involved with sexual encounters

03:03:50 sexual encounters that

03:03:57 no i don't suppose i was surprised i was shocked

03:03:58 shocked yes

03:03:59 yes because to me he'd let not only the sds down he'd let everyone down

03:04:09 down and the end without is now this inquiry and i think it's a great pity

03:04:14 um give me a moment you you talk as if you now remember him um

03:04:23 um letting everyone down is that right that he his behavior has let everyone down i'm saying chairman

03:04:35 down i'm saying chairman that as a result of his behavior an inquiry has been set up

03:04:46 an inquiry has been set up which is uh delving into the whole operational practices of the sds 50 years ago and it's a great shame because one of the

03:04:51 the uh

03:04:57 proud things of special branch was that the sds was run without the general knowledge of the branch let alone the police force or anyone else

03:05:13 but now the whole thing's been exposed unraveled and that's why i i think it's a great shame

03:05:20 shame that his behavior oh i'm ashamed of his behavior full stop i think we're across purposes

03:05:35 i think we're across purposes uh i had understood you to say that at the time you thought he had let everybody down no

03:05:38 no uh

03:05:39 uh german i didn't know he had been involved until this inquiry was started well i well understand that that was what you say in your witness statement

03:05:54 what you say in your witness statement and what you've said in evidence sorry i i misunderstood what you said thank you for clarifying thank you

03:06:03 uh hn 300 i don't know whether you need to remind yourself of who that is thank you very much um

03:06:17 were you aware of any reputation he had as a womanizer i wasn't initially when he

03:06:23 when he in fact i don't recall when he actually joined

03:06:24 joined um

03:06:25 um the sds

03:06:29 the sds whether i i was there at that time or not

03:06:33 not you were you weren't i think i i was you weren't

03:06:36 weren't not when he initially joined the sds so

03:06:38 so there he was did you become aware of it yes he was a strange character

03:06:49 yes he was a strange character and did you become aware of it during the course of his sds deployment

03:06:59 i suspect so yes later on in his towards the end of his stint

03:07:01 stint uh um

03:07:03 uh um he's been described by one of the officers in closed session as a sexual predator

03:07:10 predator does that

03:07:14 does that assessment accord with your memory of him

03:07:16 him i certainly would never put it into that category but that's a individual opinion isn't it um

03:07:31 you say you became aware of the fact that he was a womanizer or that sort of thing during the course of the the latter stages of his sds deployment

03:07:42 sds deployment um

03:07:47 um he was withdrawn we think in november 1976

03:07:50 1976 so about

03:07:53 so about five or six or seven months after you had joined the sds and we understand that he was withdrawn as a result of his uh falling in love with an

03:08:08 uh falling in love with an activist can you can you recall that no certainly i didn't know anything about that until the inquiry started what what was it that you became aware of then during the course of his sds

03:08:20 of then during the course of his sds deployment that caused you to think that there may be difficulties with him i think it was right at the end um general chit-chat i think

03:08:32 i think if i recall correctly he had been married a

03:08:37 married a couple of times and his i think

03:08:41 i think uh his marriage was said to be on the rocks

03:08:50 um so is that that the anxiety his marriage was on the rocks or that he was uh engaged in other sexual well actually he was being withdrawn because his time was up

03:08:59 was up um i want to ask you about that please the inquiry has been told by an officer giving evidence in closed session that um

03:09:09 that um he was

03:09:10 he was hn 300 confessed to him that he'd fallen in love with an activist

03:09:20 activist and that officer that closed officer arranged to a meeting with the sds management in a pub told them about it

03:09:31 told them about it then it hn 300 was then withdrawn

03:09:37 withdrawn and the officer recalls that it was you that was spoken to about hn 300. can you recall being informed about that definitely not and

03:09:47 and all i can say is i don't remember any of those circumstances and i've read the transcript of the officer concerned

03:10:01 officer concerned and he didn't know the name of the person he told him the pub until my name was suggested so

03:10:13 until my name was suggested so i think he me he mentioned that the the officer with the scottish name i think that was as far as he could recall exactly

03:10:14 exactly but

03:10:17 but whether it's scottish name or not uh it wasn't me right the circumstances he goes he enlarges on it and

03:10:30 and the period of time 300 was with him etc so

03:10:31 so the circumstances are such i couldn't fail but remember i mean it's extraordinary um

03:10:43 um had you been told that an offer an officer had fallen in love with an activist

03:10:48 activist what would what would you have done

03:10:58 well it would have to be reported all the way up he would have to come out um

03:11:00 um i mean

03:11:01 i mean it would be a very serious position and it was uh would any disciplinary action have been taken against him do you think

03:11:16 you think i have no idea it would have gone right up top it wouldn't be anything an inspector would ever say um but it wouldn't be just contained to the sds then a decision will be taken at

03:11:28 the sds then a decision will be taken at much higher level and had to be reported up the discussions would go up the tree um

03:11:30 um i might you have expected any further monitoring of him to ensure they didn't continue with any sort of relationship with an activist outside his deployment

03:11:43 again that wouldn't be my decision

03:11:54 um we understand that he subsequently married this activist was that something that you were aware

03:12:09 was that something that you were aware of at the time no not until i was told and what is your reaction to that i find it amazing and i find it amazing that rumor control kept that secret

03:12:16 would you have expected that to have

03:12:24 resulted in any particular um

03:12:25 um action taken by your superior officers i would think he would have to move out of special branch for a start

03:12:37 i mean there's strong vetting and it wouldn't meet the vetting criteria

03:12:50 we also know that hn 354 and hn 21 um engaged in sexual relationships but didn't disclose them to sds managers they say

03:12:58 they say um had they disclosed those relationships to you is it likely they would have been subject to disciplinary proceedings

03:13:11 proceedings well all the circumstances would have to be considered and it

03:13:18 could have happened senior management may have felt the circumstances were such that it wouldn't be a discipline okay um

03:13:35 hn126 i don't know whether you need to look at the list and understand who that officer is

03:13:47 yes do you have any recollection of hearing that he had become close to a member of his target group no

03:13:54 no no

03:13:56 no um

03:13:57 um hn

03:13:58 hn 1

03:13:59 1 5 5 again do you want to just check that you know who that is um i think you overlap for a very brief period of time

03:14:12 period of time um two things hm155 did you have any knowledge of hn155 getting stoned with activists smoking marijuana no no

03:14:21 no no uh h1 uh that particular officer i don't think he actually went into the field

03:14:33 field during my time right in the back office thank you very much thank you

03:14:38 um sir i'm just about to move to another topic i don't have a great deal left but i wonder whether that might be an appropriate moment to draw stumps until

03:14:51 draw stumps until i can finish off after lunch certainly um it will give me uh a minute or two to ask about a topic you have asked about which uh is troubling me

03:15:09 troubling me the officer who described uh how hn 300 came out of the field gave

03:15:10 gave very clear evidence about what he had been told by hn 300 and what

03:15:17 and what he did

03:15:18 he did to

03:15:22 to deal with the matter by reporting it to one

03:15:25 one or other of the managers in other words the detective inspector or the detective chief inspector in the sds

03:15:36 sds as a matter of dates that is

03:15:37 that is you and jeff kraft

03:15:44 i mean we know we know when these events occurred

03:15:45 occurred and you were in fact the detective inspector then and jeff kraft was the detective chief inspector then

03:15:56 detective chief inspector then and one of the puzzles is that neither of you remembers clearly being

03:15:57 being in those positions together simultaneously that's correct yes and i i'm wondering whether

03:16:09 wondering whether now you've read as you have what the uh

03:16:12 uh closed officer had to say and reflected on it you have any explanations which might enable me to work out what happened

03:16:25 well i i can only presume

03:16:30 presume um but i can't actually produce any evidence to support this chairman

03:16:45 that clearly in 1976 long periods where i wasn't actually working within the office due to

03:16:51 due to as i've mentioned yeah various courses and

03:17:03 this event happened whilst i was away and i say that because it's such a big event um

03:17:04 um such a serious event that it would have stuck in my mind and i'm sure it would have stuck in jeff croft's mind if i'd been with him i

03:17:15 i wonder if

03:17:19 wonder if there was an acting inspector possibly les willinghale

03:17:30 who was actually with jeff kraft on that occasion it certainly wasn't me well

03:17:39 i can't imagine that it's a sort of incident that i could honestly claim i can't recall

03:17:44 so

03:17:50 an explanation might be might be that it was someone standing in your shoes temporarily yes and it might have been les willinghale that that's the only possibility i can come forward with

03:18:05 come forward with thank you for that um we will resume at two

03:18:08 two and um you have roughly how long that and only about 20 minutes yes um ms hamerson will have 20 minutes of her own questions and then we have a break of 20 minutes so that anybody else

03:18:23 minutes so that anybody else may raise topics with miss hamiston for her to ask you and then you may be re-examined by your counsel thank you very much that will give you i hope

03:18:28 hope uh

03:18:31 uh some indication that your evidence may be finished by about three o'clock

03:21:04 you