Detective Inspector Angus McIntosh testifies about his role managing the Special Demonstration Squad (SDS) in the late 1970s. His testimony covers the SDS relationship with security services, management of undercover officers, the Blair Peach demonstration and funeral, sexual relationships during undercover deployments, and the welfare of officers' families.
00:21:33 all rise please
00:21:52 three final topics um from me at this stage mr macintosh the first first one
00:22:04 the relationship with the security services during the time that uh you were
00:22:05 were a di at the sds you say in your uh statement that you were to junior in rank at that stage
00:22:16 rank at that stage to have a great deal of contact with the sds
00:22:19 sds although you were aware that they were one of the agencies that were making tasking requests of the sds is that is that right
00:22:35 can i ask please for document ucpi five zeroes three zero eight nine three please to be put on the screen
00:22:42 um this is a
00:22:50 a summary uh document dated the 17th of august
00:22:52 august uh
00:22:58 uh 1979 of the contact between the security services and the sds in the year to date um
00:23:04 um it indicates that there was a meeting on the
00:23:13 twenty yes the 22nd of february is the third line down there appears to be in a meeting
00:23:18 meeting that uh mike ferguson and you attended on the 22nd of february 1979.
00:23:29 um and can we just uh scroll down please to the second paragraph
00:23:42 i'm extremely sorry i've left my hard copy bundle back in my room which has got my highlighting on it i wonder if we could just briefly pause i can ask miss smith to go and collect that i'm sorry otherwise i'm going to oh it's
00:23:53 sorry otherwise i'm going to oh it's going to take rather too long for me to scroll down by eye awfully sorry mr mcintosh we'll pause the video hardcopy buttons i'm grateful thank you
00:25:21 thank you very much i'm sorry about that um
00:25:35 i'm sorry paragraph one so just scroll back up the page please about two-thirds of the way down that paragraph or probably three quarters of the way down that paragraph
00:25:50 the way down that paragraph we agreed at the far right hand corner to hold regular meetings at approximately monthly
00:25:56 monthly intervals that's meetings between the sds
00:25:58 the sds and the uh security services can you recall that um
00:26:09 um from the 22nd of feb from february among things meetings were held roughly monthly can you recall that no because it says sds
00:26:21 sds was reluctant to hold regular meetings thank you very much if you
00:26:28 if you can can we move on please to paragraph two
00:26:40 it says that the sds are ready to accept regular briefs from f7 both on organizations and individuals to attend specific meetings where f6 something redacted and to respond to
00:26:59 something redacted and to respond to specific feedback from reports we agreed that briefings will be passed on on headed unattributable paper direct to the head of sds or by word of mouth
00:27:03 mouth um
00:27:05 um it seems that from
00:27:08 from roughly this period the chain of tasking was to come directly to the ses rather than through the
00:27:23 rather than through the superintendents can you recall anything like that actually i'm quite surprised to be honest um
00:27:27 um it also indicates the rest of this report that um meetings were also being held with the with the with s squad uh you indicate in your statement that
00:27:40 uh you indicate in your statement that uh in your opinion the relationship with the security services was a good one between the sds and the security services it was a cordial relationship it was as far as i knew yes sorry can you just take that document
00:27:53 sorry can you just take that document down please can we have another one up please very very quickly ucpi five zeros two eight eight one zero
00:28:13 um this is a a note of a meeting on the 2nd of october an opportunity to say farewell to detective inspector angus mcintosh and to meet his successor trevor butler after
00:28:23 after lunch
00:28:26 lunch at the waterloo dispatch in adams row we returned to return for discussions um um
00:28:36 was it common that that in your experience that sds officers would have lunch with um the security services was that something that happened regularly no but from the previous minute it
00:28:48 no but from the previous minute it looked as though there was going to be a closer association right this is the as it says apparently um
00:28:58 um and i i certainly don't deny that i i went there with uh i presume mike ferguson and trevor butler
00:29:08 butler uh to say goodbye and for them to meet trevor butler um sorry you can take that document down now please um did did the sds um to your knowledge
00:29:26 did the sds um to your knowledge keep any record of communications with the security services do you remember no i don't recall any um other than on documents i mean
00:29:37 other than on documents i mean minute sheets or loads of minute sheets for every piece of paper is it thank you very much next uh a disparate topic please um
00:29:45 um you say in your witness statements that reporting for public order purposes was ordinarily
00:29:56 was ordinarily um was undertaken normally by way of a written report which would have been compiled by dick scully
00:30:01 scully from information provided by the ucos
00:30:08 so this is specifically about public order uh matters is that a reference to a threat assessment do you think is that what you mean well uh yes it
00:30:19 yes it no
00:30:21 no it's
00:30:22 it's part
00:30:24 part it's a report from which threat assessments would be considered by the branch producing the assessment
00:30:37 by the branch producing the assessment so it would normally go to c squad and they'll do the assessment and can you help us at all about how c-squad prepared threat assessments no idea no
00:30:47 idea no um
00:30:49 um do you know who received threat assessments well it would be the body requiring it so if it was the
00:31:06 so if it was the uniform police it would go to a8 right so it's just directed to to the body that will be dealing with that particular issue as far as i'm aware yes um
00:31:14 um you say in your witness statement that urgent information was
00:31:21 was relayed by phone about public order uh matters
00:31:23 matters what what do you mean by urgent information what sort of information would you have well it could be within the 24 hours of the demonstration if
00:31:34 if one of our sources had information on numbers likely to attain
00:31:40 attain change of plans any aggravation expected that's what i would call urgent information and
00:31:50 and how frequently do you think that occurred that sort of you'd have to go
00:32:02 occurred that sort of you'd have to go back to the history of demonstrations i mean there were an awful lot of demonstrations during my time but uh to actually state in a number of days i couldn't tell you did it did you feel you were frequently having to undertake those kind of
00:32:13 having to undertake those kind of telephone calls or was it something that was quite rare no i felt it was most probably some of the most important public order information we could pass on so we were always
00:32:26 we were always stressing to our officers that
00:32:30 that any new information concerning a demonstration nowhere matter where i mean it didn't just have to be in the met if it concerned
00:32:42 concerned midlands or something would phone it up to
00:32:43 to special branch in the midlands that information had been received and was it quite rare that you'd have to make those telephone conversations or did that was that relatively common
00:32:56 that relatively common it wasn't rare but it certainly wasn't every day
00:32:58 every day thank you
00:33:00 thank you um
00:33:05 um did the sds ever receive feedback from any of the sds
00:33:08 sds customers to as far as i can recall only in a general sense i mean they were considered a very valuable source
00:33:20 valuable source and was there sorry i don't want to sorry
00:33:21 sorry and
00:33:25 and senior officers from various branch
00:33:30 branch sections of the squad and even
00:33:32 and even top brass from the yard
00:33:38 did the sds to your knowledge ever receive any critical feedback from any quarter i'm certainly not aware of that no
00:33:49 thank you final topic at this stage um
00:33:59 one of the officers who the inquiry heard from in closed session was present at the demonstration in southall
00:34:06 southall at which blair peach received a fatal injury that was on the 20 i think the 23rd of april 1979.
00:34:17 he said
00:34:18 said that he was warned by sds managers
00:34:32 by sds managers not to attend the demonstration that day because the unified uniformed branch we're going to clamp down on the demonstration uh were you the manager that warned um this officer not to go to that man to that demonstration do you think no i i
00:34:46 that demonstration do you think no i i wasn't but i can understand that warning yes
00:34:50 yes i didn't know why do you think that warning would have been given well we don't want our officers arrested we don't want our officers involved in violence as simple as that
00:35:04 violence as simple as that so if we had if we had and it's very unusual
00:35:06 unusual it's it's fairly unusual statement actually it sounds quite aggressive um
00:35:15 um i can't recall one like that to be honest um
00:35:17 honest um can you recollect knowing that the uniformed uh branch we're going to clamp down more heavily on this demonstration than others can you recall well as i said i
00:35:31 said i haven't heard of that type of message this officer also states that um sds management um arranged for him to be smuggled into scotland yard
00:35:48 him to be smuggled into scotland yard to make to later on to make a statement about the demonstration which he did attend notwithstanding um
00:35:49 um advice not to attend can you recall arranging for an officer to be taken to scotland yard to make a statement
00:35:59 statement uh
00:36:05 uh not on this occasion we used to smuggle them in occasionally for various reasons
00:36:11 can you recall any pressure brought to bear on the sds to provide evidence favorable to the police in respect of this the south all
00:36:25 police in respect of this the south all demonstration yeah i certainly can't no um
00:36:30 another officer who gave evidence in closed session uh said that he was asked to attend blair peach's funeral by one of his uh managers and
00:36:41 and in fact a report was then produced with a list of uh names of other attendees um
00:36:49 um can you recall was that you who asked him to attend the funeral do you think
00:37:00 i don't know either who told him or who
00:37:01 who he is
00:37:10 i can understand the request by the management to ask the officer to attend yes um what what what what why would the management have wanted an officer to attend that event to attend yes uh in case uh anything to
00:37:27 in case uh anything to early identify disorder and
00:37:28 and also
00:37:30 also as normal coverage of an event which was of interest because of the whole um
00:37:43 whole um the whole reason of the uh
00:37:44 uh the funeral was to for a person involved in the extreme left-wing
00:37:51 left-wing politics
00:37:56 and demonstration that's all and most probably i i don't know which officer went or who asked him to go
00:38:09 asked him to go it most probably fitted in well with his colleagues
00:38:17 you say in your witness statement that reporting on those attending
00:38:29 on those attending events in connection with bear peach you say was due to their status as activists
00:38:34 activists rather than as individuals who sought to discredit
00:38:35 discredit or criticize the police is that right that that was why these events were reported or not about not because they were trying to
00:38:46 about not because they were trying to discredit or criticize the police but because they were simply activists
00:38:48 activists engaged in going to attending events yeah and that's why they were reported on is that is that your view yes
00:38:58 uh thank you very much uh mr bakadosh i've got no further questions for you at this time
00:39:04 time yes
00:39:05 yes um
00:39:08 um just one question before we break for 20 minutes
00:39:09 minutes um
00:39:13 um many people might think it is
00:39:14 is distasteful for
00:39:20 for a police officer whether undercover or not
00:39:21 not to attend
00:39:26 to attend the funeral of someone who has died in the circumstances we now know
00:39:32 and record
00:39:33 record the names of all of those capable of being identified who have attended it do you have any observation to make about that well
00:39:50 well i can understand some people being upset by it particularly people close to the person's funeral however
00:39:54 however in public disorder and i know i i'm quoting northern ireland for instance
00:40:05 ireland for instance uh funerals were often a hotbed of problems
00:40:06 problems and it wasn't the true friends and relatives of the the person whose funeral it was
00:40:19 whose funeral it was it was because there was an uh an opportunity of demonstrating against whatever they got in mind but it be anti-police in one way or the other
00:40:35 way or the other or it could even be the opposition the national front in this case having their own demonstration unfortunately sir i don't think
00:40:46 unfortunately sir i don't think there's a lot of respect in those circumstances for the real reason of the occasion
00:40:57 thank you we'll um adjourn now for 20 minutes and would you be prepared to come back then and when questions have been asked as i've indicated then your evidence should be complete thank you
01:19:52 all rise please
01:20:06 [Music]
01:20:13 a number of questions i don't think it's necessarily going to take me a long time to get through them i just wanted to make sure i had a proper understanding of them
01:20:22 of them um so i apologize for the um delay um
01:20:28 um they're on a on disparate topics and so i'm afraid would you just bear with me whilst we go through them the first is this uh you said you had a an advisory role
01:20:37 role uh in uh the undercover officers using the identities of children who had died
01:20:49 died did you ever advise uh undercover officers to visit the places where these children had come from
01:20:58 excuse me um
01:20:59 um dealing now with uh uh reporting on uh uh individuals in connection with the death of blair peach um
01:21:13 um i don't know whether it will assist you but if it does
01:21:19 hn 21 the person who attended blair petra's funeral nhn 41 who attended the demonstration at which he received a fatal injury or on your cipher list
01:21:30 on your cipher list um
01:21:34 um if you want to just refer to them don't refer them by name but if you want to just check that you can you you understand who those officers are
01:21:46 yeah thank you
01:21:47 thank you um
01:21:54 um i just want to clarify an answer you uh gave right at the end of your evidence about
01:21:56 about the reason for reporting on events that had a connection to the death of blair peach
01:22:12 um in your witness statement what you have said is that you you do not believe that
01:22:25 activists involved in events connected with the death of player peach were reported on because they sought to discredit or criticize the police that's what you said in your witness statement i just want to
01:22:38 want to clarify because you you seem to you seem to give an answer at one point about people being reported on for being anti-police i just wanted to make sure that you you understood that
01:22:53 that um what was your understanding as to why people reported on um for example attending the funeral or or any other matter in connection with blair peach what why to your mind would those people have been reported on
01:23:10 well if if someone's been deputed to cover any form of meeting and demonstration it is their duty
01:23:21 their duty if they identify people to report their presence
01:23:26 presence it's not for them to decide it's for the people who want the reports to decide whether they are of interest or not so whether they are activists or or not
01:23:47 i don't think that was relevant to the officers they may well have just identified activists because they're the only people they knew what why
01:23:57 what why was it though do you think that people were reported on who attended for example the funeral of blair peach what would be the justification for that i suspect it was thought that the the
01:24:12 i suspect it was thought that the the ones identified in other words reported on uh were connected with the organization or the uh
01:24:21 or the uh the purpose of the demonstration where
01:24:22 where i think claire peach was killed to be quite honest i don't recall the full details of the death of peach sorry thank you
01:24:33 thank you just one uh more question about reporting on blair peach's funeral
01:24:47 peach's funeral hn 21 has given evidence and he said that he did not believe that the funeral would have represented any public order risk and i think your answer
01:25:02 your answer in respect of the justification for that reporting or for for attendance at the funeral was that it might have done um does his assessment that it would not have
01:25:09 have raised a public order risk does that change your mind or what's your reaction to that not really because it's a subjective conclusion um
01:25:19 um he
01:25:22 he because he was present and therefore saw what was going on could well have reached that conclusion and be 100 right from my point of view if i had been the officer who had
01:25:33 officer who had asked him to go until i know who was there i can't come to that conclusion thank you
01:25:42 thank you another topic now you were asked by the chairman as to
01:25:50 as to where you would set the limit on the commission of criminal offences uh by
01:25:56 uh by undercover officers um in your witness statement i think you said uh you would set that limit at bill posting
01:26:05 posting and leafleting but when asked directly i think you said you wouldn't necessarily always put it there and i just wanted to understand
01:26:20 there and i just wanted to understand where your boundary might have uh been for the conduct of your undercover officers
01:26:26 no when i answered the chairman's question
01:26:31 i had the initial question i thought it had included bill posting i i muddled up leafleting um
01:26:42 um thinking sticking leaflets or walls but uh
01:26:47 uh but those are the uh two areas which i i would term as very minor misdemeanors and therefore not an embarrassment to law enforcement um
01:26:59 um how about the commission of public order offences
01:27:01 offences well
01:27:04 well would that have been beyond the well it's going to be but one has to accept there would be circumstances where you can't get out of it
01:27:15 it particularly uh where you've got groups fighting each other and
01:27:23 and you may be the unlucky one who fills the hand of the law because a lot of people never do
01:27:26 never do um
01:27:27 um and how about um obstructing police officers in the in carrying out their duties would that would that fall outside the line
01:27:38 line well again you'd have to look at the circumstances if it's a group of people doing that there's no way i mean he's going to be
01:27:53 i mean he's going to be included in that group causing uh committing that offence i'd certainly draw a line on it if he
01:28:04 i'd certainly draw a line on it if he was on his own and he did that it was completely unacceptable um
01:28:09 um in your witness statement you refer to officers sailing close to the wind is that what you mean by that that in the moment
01:28:19 can you give me the yes of course sorry yes i'm sorry let me just find the reference for you
01:28:36 sorry thank you
01:28:43 uh it's a paragraph uh in paragraph 163 you're dealing with the commission of offenses by undercover officers um
01:28:54 um you say
01:28:55 you say there seems to have been some acceptance that ucos would necessarily have to sell close to the wind in terms of conduct connected to their deployment conduct unconnected to their deployment
01:29:09 conduct unconnected to their deployment such as drug dealing or murder would not have been sanctioned or tolerated and you go on to deal with hn13 who was prosecuted for conduct in connection with his
01:29:17 with his uh deployment perhaps i should have started earlier in the sentence that this is your paragraphs dealing with commission of criminal offense whilst undercover you gave advice you say that the
01:29:33 you gave advice you say that the commission of offences was not permitted it was made abundantly clear they could not indulge in criminal activity excluding peaceful protest activities you would have expected them to use their initiative as to what conduct fell with an acceptable tolerance range
01:29:45 with an acceptable tolerance range and you then say there seems to have been some acceptance that ucas would necessarily have to sail close to the uh wind um
01:29:55 um is is that what you uh is that what you're referring to when you say an officer on his own acting you couldn't have sanctioned but in a group quite
01:30:05 quite yes
01:30:13 yes i'm sorry i didn't appreciate it no it's probably my i suspect it's my poor questioning thank you very much um
01:30:18 given that that was a risk and an area of some um difficulty for an undercover officer was there any sort of was there any
01:30:34 was there any sort of was there any definitive guidance given to them about it or was that something that would simply have been impossible well
01:30:35 well quite right it would have been impossible and you had to rely on the officer's judgment
01:30:47 which of course in hindsight could be said to be wrong
01:30:54 thank you please come we have another entirely separate topic ucpi 5030893
01:31:04 this is simply to see if you can assist with a
01:31:06 with a turn of phrase except this is not a document drafted by
01:31:18 except this is not a document drafted by you but it reports a meeting attended by you and mike ferguson with the security services
01:31:23 services in the first paragraph about
01:31:26 about just over half the way down there as a sentence beginning it was suggested that in some cases particularly with the anarchist groups it might prove necessary to indoctrinate the desks
01:31:37 the desks this sds are reluctant to do in principle but we'll look at each case on its merits i'm asked to ask you do you know what's meant by indoctrinate the desks
01:31:47 desks i presume
01:31:48 i presume the
01:31:55 the desks of the security service dealing with that particular problem an
01:31:56 an indoctrinate indoctrinate is to me it's a level of security which is very very high vetting
01:32:07 vetting okay
01:32:09 okay thank you very much we can take that document down
01:32:21 um another topic now please dealing with the wives and partners of the
01:32:22 of the undercover officers you
01:32:29 you told us that telephone numbers were provided to the wives and the girlfriends of the undercover officers so that they could contact you or mike ferguson if they had any concerns
01:32:41 concerns um can you recall um
01:32:49 um that any ever did contact you during the time that you were there no i can't no okay um
01:33:00 um i asked you about what was said to the wives about what their husbands were doing
01:33:02 doing that required them to be away from the marital home for long periods of time
01:33:15 was any explanation provided for their change of appearance we understand that they often grew their hair long were much more less smart than they might have been in their ordinary course of their work
01:33:28 work i'm pretty sure about this because the change of their appearance happened to their wives knowledge and one
01:33:35 one rightly or wrongly presumed that they must have told their wives or partners exactly
01:33:42 exactly why they wanted to do it and uh we wouldn't interfere with whatever reason they'd give given to their their loved ones
01:33:51 ones what was said to the wives or the girlfriends about what their husbands were doing what what this change of job was that required senior officers to come and visit them
01:34:07 can you recall well
01:34:08 well we would
01:34:12 we would we would tell them that they were doing a special job which is undercover and that it could involve long hours
01:34:23 and that it could involve long hours and if they had any concerns about what was happening three domestic arrangements um they were
01:34:34 they were they were encouraged to contact us okay thank you
01:34:35 thank you um
01:34:38 um it it it would appear that the families of undercover officers performed a very important function um
01:34:55 um for the sds to ensure that the welfare of the officers concerned and
01:34:59 and that they took on that very important role
01:35:00 role without
01:35:04 without much understanding of the risks that work
01:35:05 work involved yes
01:35:16 was there any concern within the management of the sds um
01:35:17 um for the families rather than for the welfare of the officers was there any concern about the welfare of the families themselves well the most probably was but
01:35:32 well the most probably was but i'd say that because certainly with mike ferguson
01:35:36 ferguson he knew exactly what the stress and strains was on on the family i didn't because i hadn't been out
01:35:48 i didn't because i hadn't been out there was the difficulty that if you are dealing with something which was
01:35:50 which was considered not only important but
01:35:54 but must be kept secret
01:36:01 how much you could actually tell the partner however
01:36:04 however we didn't actually say to the officer you mustn't say anything to your partner we left that very much to
01:36:18 we left that very much to them rightly or wrongly to deal with that situation thank you
01:36:21 um
01:36:28 dealing now please um uh with
01:36:31 uh with guidance on uh sexual contact uh in your evidence uh you said that the officers
01:36:41 officers that you spoke to would have been aware that sexual contact in their undercover role
01:36:52 contact in their undercover role was a breach of the police regulations um
01:36:59 the officers you spoke to which officers would they be or would they simply be all the officers under your command what they told or reminded i mean they would know that they've been in the police
01:37:09 police for several years and um
01:37:20 i mean it was no secret that it was an offense because there are unfortunately often scandals which we read about thank you
01:37:29 thank you um
01:37:37 it's clear that the sds and you in particular appreciated the risk of sexual contact with officers and uh civilians in an undercover role um
01:37:54 in an undercover role um during the course of your meetings with the undercover officers did you ever directly ask them about the nature of their relationships with activists no
01:38:08 no i i didn't ask if they were having any affairs
01:38:13 so that was never sort of probed no it wasn't probed and
01:38:16 and in a way i would have thought it pointless because i wouldn't expect any of them to actually turn around to a supervising officer and say yes i'm doing it
01:38:30 doing it i say suppose the the purpose it might have served would be to remind them of the prohibition on that sort of uh behavior was that ever considered
01:38:45 behavior was that ever considered we're not talking about children we're talking about grown men and and they know what the risk of life is
01:38:53 you said in your um evidence in relation to a question by me i asked you to consider whether an officer having
01:39:06 sexual contact in his undercover role whether you considered that to be a an abuse of his police power or his position
01:39:13 position and i think your answer was effectively that you didn't think that because this was
01:39:22 was sexual contact between consenting adults and that wasn't something that you would have have um thought about from that angle but it was an offense within the organization
01:39:41 so of course i'm not giving him the green light at all no
01:39:42 all no um
01:39:48 sexual contact with somebody whilst the officer is under cover necessarily involves a deceit because it's in an undercover or an undercover role
01:39:59 role does that change your view as to whether that would would constitute an abuse of his police power
01:40:04 power or his position
01:40:13 because anybody engaging in sex with an undercover officer doesn't know he's an undercover officer and thinks he's a member of their i can't really answer that because i i can't uh say does everyone say before they have a sexual encounter what is
01:40:26 they have a sexual encounter what is your occupation and if it's a certain one do they say definitely not because you are a policeman or because you're a postman so no
01:40:34 so no thank you
01:40:36 thank you um
01:40:38 um you said that the um issue of girlfriends was a topic that came up
01:40:44 came up at the
01:40:57 at the safe house and mike ferguson would have been well aware of conversations about that and the difficulties that um the police at the undercover officers brought to your attention um
01:40:59 craft
01:41:08 it's not entirely clear to me whether you can recall serving with him or you can't i know that you recall attending the public house to with him in respect of hn297
01:41:19 with him in respect of hn297 does that does it follow that you can to some extent remember serving with him or can you just remember that that detail
01:41:34 i know i served with him you produce papers signed by him which involves me strangely enough
01:41:43 maybe it was quarter during that period i don't know but i
01:41:48 but i certainly recall serving with michael ferguson
01:41:49 ferguson were
01:41:50 were complaints about the issue of girlfriends was that an issue that was raised
01:41:55 raised throughout your time at the sds or did it just come up at a particular time no i think it was throughout and we looked
01:42:04 we looked to see how we could cope with it um
01:42:09 um you said that mike ferguson was certainly aware that that was a difficulty does it follow then that kraft would have been aware that that
01:42:23 kraft would have been aware that that was a difficulty or not you can't say it certainly wouldn't necessarily necessarily follow um because you you dealt with the crisis at the time and um
01:42:33 and um this subject would come up at uh on occasions where someone was having to go to a social occasion it's the third
01:42:47 go to a social occasion it's the third or fourth time he's been there and he's running out of excuses um or
01:42:49 um or for not going there because he's seeing his girlfriend and then someone has said well bring your girlfriend along and and so the pressure was building up there
01:43:00 there and
01:43:04 and they were coming to us saying this is the
01:43:07 the i say they individuals would come up and say i'm in a situation here is there any way i can produce a lady okay
01:43:17 okay thank you
01:43:18 thank you um
01:43:19 um hn 300 now please um you said you became aware of
01:43:34 of his reputation during the course of his time at the sds and i think you overlapped for about um seven or eight uh months um
01:43:42 um did you do anything about that when you became aware that he had a a certain reputation did you do anything about that well he was coming to the end he was
01:43:56 well he was coming to the end he was coming out of it so no i didn't do any specific thing about him um
01:43:58 um we have been uh one of the officers that gave evidence in closed session i think indicated that hn
01:44:10 hn 300 was an alcoholic was that something that you knew about no i knew he drank but most most of them did
01:44:20 on a related topic uh um
01:44:22 uh um alcohol
01:44:24 alcohol did the
01:44:29 did the undercover officers turn in expense forms uh for their um food and things of that nature did they were they weren't able to reclaim
01:44:44 reclaim they could but it was extremely limited would they be able to claim from alcohol purchase for example not for themselves no well at least i don't think they were allowed
01:44:53 allowed you say not for a long time ago i appreciate this is a very detailed question you say not for themselves would they be able to claim for somebody
01:45:05 would they be able to claim for somebody else then what do you mean by that there could be circumstances yes where it would be legitimate to claim for alcohol for somebody else refreshments for other people right thank you
01:45:18 uh final topic now please um
01:45:19 um we know that hn13 um was uh during the course of the demonstration that he was arrested um during
01:45:30 during was
01:45:36 was beaten up it seems by a police officer and required i think an x-ray as a result
01:45:38 result um
01:45:44 were sds officers um to witness any sort of police misconduct
01:45:57 any sort of police misconduct what what did what was done about that was that ever taken any further or reported up the chain well it was reported on in
01:46:00 in in general terms like the press
01:46:09 so if they were able to identify for example an officer behaving badly would
01:46:20 example an officer behaving badly would anything have been done about that well it's extremely unlikely that he could identify i suppose if he had and
01:46:22 and it was accepted by senior officers to
01:46:34 disclose this chap's identity the undercover officer's identity and it was sufficiently the evidence was sufficiently strong to take the officer the uh
01:46:48 the uh the sorting officer to court it would be done but to be a high powered decision not mine
01:46:50 not mine uh thank you very much i don't think i've got any further questions for you thank you
01:46:54 thank you is there any re-examination
01:47:00 thank you rather later than i had thought that is now the end of your evidence thank you for coming and giving it
01:47:05 it we'll
01:47:06 we'll resume at 10 tomorrow
01:47:59 you