Trevor Craft, former head of the Special Demonstration Squad (SDS) and later Chief Superintendent of S Squad, gives testimony about the management, oversight, and operations of undercover policing from 1974-1984. His evidence covers officer prosecutions, welfare concerns, targeting decisions, relationships with the Security Service, and his lack of awareness about officers' sexual misconduct.
00:24:10 all rise please
00:24:26 mr barr i understand that copies of the restriction order which has been made are now
00:24:27 are now on the desks in the public gallery as well as on the notice outside you are about i think to ask about a topic that you did cover during that restricted period
00:24:41 during that restricted period may i make it clear that anything that is now said about it subject of course to any further mishaps can be reported to the outside world with the usual 10 minute delay
00:24:54 mr craft if you had known that richard clark had risen to high office in the troops out movement
00:25:07 office in the troops out movement including becoming the convener to the national secretariat would you have approved
00:25:09 approved no
00:25:12 moving to hn
00:25:15 to hn 354
00:25:17 354 vince harvey he became
00:25:22 he became treasurer
00:25:26 treasurer of both the branch and the district of the swp that he infiltrated he described that in his witness statement as a fantastic opportunity
00:25:44 statement as a fantastic opportunity and he was referring to the intelligence that those positions gave him access to
00:25:46 to do you agree yes clearly it gave him access to all the membership
00:26:01 can i move now to the question of the prosecution of the officer that we know as hn 13.
00:26:08 a major refreshment member i think i know who you're talking about
00:26:17 yes certainly he we know was prosecuted twice our understanding is that you were involved in dealing with
00:26:31 with part of the first of those two prosecutions yes can i start by drawing your attention to a couple of minutes
00:26:42 attention to a couple of minutes they are in the documented tabs 30 sir that is a
00:26:43 that is a mps-0526
00:26:50 so i may have got it
00:26:51 it mps-0526784
00:27:02 and if we could have once we've got that page 12 up
00:27:12 this is right at the back of this minute sheet so it's it's the beginning of the story
00:27:13 story in time
00:27:14 in time 19th of september 1977. this is very much the tail end of your service as head of the sds it reads
00:27:24 it reads as you are aware the communist party of england marxist leninist under the guise of the east london people's front held an anti-fascist march on saturday
00:27:37 an anti-fascist march on saturday morning the 17th of september from ilford to barking outside barking police station a confrontation between one of the marchers and a suspected national front photographer precipitated a general melee
00:27:48 melee resulting in a number of arrests detective constable hn 13 sds who had been marching with his comrades was
00:28:00 been marching with his comrades was knocked to the ground whilst trying to shield two young children and was somewhat battered by police prior to his arrest for insulting behavior under the public order act
00:28:12 behavior under the public order act he was released on bail later in the day and is due to appear at barking magistrates court at 10 am on wednesday 21st of september
00:28:26 21st of september 3. the case is slightly complicated by the fact that dc 13 believes the constable who arrested him served with him some years ago and although the latter did not recognize him at the time there is a possibility that he might do so just
00:28:39 possibility that he might do so just before or in the course of the court hearing
00:28:43 hearing i think it would be wise subject to your agreement
00:28:48 agreement if i were to see the arresting officer in the presence of his chief superintendent with a view to putting him partially in the picture
00:29:01 the picture i would propose doing this along the lines that dc hn13 operation was a one-off
00:29:03 one-off job
00:29:07 job now if we can then go to page 11.
00:29:21 that's the next in time we move from the 19th to the 21st of september and that reads dc 13 together with his comrades appeared at barking magistrates court this morning and was remanded on
00:29:33 court this morning and was remanded on bail to appear at the same court on the 3rd of january 1978 when the cases will be heard i had a long conversation at the court
00:29:44 i had a long conversation at the court with the arresting officer pc and we've redacted the officer's name and it is clear that his colleague pc again we've redacted the name has said nothing to suggest that he might have recognized hn13
00:30:00 recognized hn13 and you have signed both of those documents
00:30:08 documents can i take it from this second later document only two days later that you did not in fact get the opportunity to talk with the constable in the company of his chief superintendent that is correct and that the conversation you had at barking
00:30:20 the conversation you had at barking magistrates was your first conversation with the arresting officer i believe so and
00:30:28 and it seems that the concern at the time was whether hn 13 would be recognized by his uniformed colleague yes and that
00:30:39 and that that was that fear was allayed as a result of your conversation that is
00:30:54 result of your conversation that is correct can you recall whether or not you put him partially in the picture as you phrased it in eliciting that information i can't recall exactly what was said on that occasion no i'm sorry too long ago can you recall whether or not the
00:31:11 can you recall whether or not the arresting officers would have known that hn 13 was a police officer no i can't recall that
00:31:18 it presumably follows from that answer still less can you help us with whether they knew he was an undercover police officer yes i don't remember anything to do with that i do remember it's in my statement that of course i was later involved
00:31:33 did you speak to the solicitor in the case
00:31:37 case no did you speak to counsel in the case no
00:31:41 no did you speak to the magistrates clerk and the magistrate you spoke to them yes and what did you tell them
00:31:47 tell them i briefed the magistrate that um this was an undercover officer working under his undercover name um
00:32:01 um that it was a secret operation that um he would maintain that name my concern also was that because he was arrested with this these other people who like to make
00:32:20 these other people who like to make public displays the chances were that he they might try and kick up in the dock and behave badly that he would be obliged to maintain his cover to join in
00:32:25 was that conversation on the same occasion that you spoke to the constable don't think so i think this was when but the morning he appeared i i seem to remember so on the morning he appeared all right well let's let's pull the next
00:32:37 all right well let's let's pull the next page up so can we have back up uh mps-05
00:32:49 let's tap 30 set and can we go to page 10
00:32:57 now this is the next in time 6th of january 1978.
00:33:08 paragraph 5 of that says contact has been established with a court official who is aware that one of the defendants name not given is an informant whom we would be anxious to safeguard from any prison sentence should this situation arise
00:33:20 situation arise so
00:33:24 so is it this appearance on
00:33:26 on their appearances this document relates to appearances on the 3rd and 5th of january is it this occasion you're referring to or another one
00:33:44 i i remember going i thought it was on the morning of the hearing and i remember briefing the magistrate and
00:33:47 and the
00:33:47 the clerk to the court really i can't apart from what i've already said i can't be absolutely sure about on which occasion well we can go to page nine
00:34:09 and this is the the next in the sequence 17th of april this deals with the trial and it says at paragraph three throughout this trial contact was maintained with a court official whose invaluable assistance in cooperation was given without question and our
00:34:24 given without question and our appreciation for this was expressed at the end of the proceedings now the last two documents i've shown you those dating from 1978 are signed by
00:34:44 are signed by superintendent pride yes and as we understand it post date your time
00:34:45 your time as head of the sds yes it's interesting as i say my memory is fixed on going to the court
00:34:59 going to the court and seeing the magistrate and the clerk of the court was with her i can't really go beyond that to be absolutely accurate i'm sorry but that's where my memory goes
00:35:22 if we stick with first of all the first two documents i showed you which date from your tenure as head of the sds neither of them refer to
00:35:22 to speaking to the court they only refer to
00:35:33 speaking to the court they only refer to the concern about hn 13 being recognized presumably if on either of those occasions
00:35:34 occasions you had spoken to the court you would have recorded that yes i would have thought so and
00:35:44 and on
00:35:45 on in the january occasion
00:35:53 you would no longer have been in the sds so
00:35:55 so can you recall whether you attended court after you left the sds no i can't remember
00:36:02 remember and
00:36:04 and the
00:36:09 the minute doesn't specifically say it was you and helpfully it doesn't say who
00:36:14 who it was but it only goes so far as to say that the court was told that one of the defendants was an informant
00:36:25 was an informant it doesn't go so far as to say the court was informed that a specific person was an undercover police officer yes i understand the question but i did
00:36:36 yes i understand the question but i did actually brief the magistrate on the the fact that he was an undercover police officer
00:36:42 how good is your recollection could you be
00:36:51 be for example confusing this with hn12 who was prosecuted for
00:36:51 for fly posting when you were a chief superintendent
00:36:59 if you could hold the file to one side
00:37:09 i don't seem to have hn12
00:37:20 because it's further along hn12 is a trans2 officer i don't know whether your uh key goes that far the fact remains that i was not the only occasion on which i went to brief a magistrate
00:37:32 which i went to brief a magistrate was this one occasion of parking i don't remember anything else and are you sure it was barking absolutely yes
00:37:49 can i move now to the topic of the welfare of the officer and his family
00:37:53 family and in particular the officers wives
00:37:55 wives and in the case of vince harvey partner did you when you recruited new officers visit their wives no
00:38:07 can you recall whether that was invariably the case no
00:38:10 no i don't recall that being done when new people were being recruited my involvement with wives came with one one separate case
00:38:22 separate case was the annual um dinner we had with husbands and wives in a hotel in west london where all the wives came and our own wives came and it was a social
00:38:33 own wives came and it was a social occasion that was the only occasion apart from once when i was had any involvement with the wives
00:38:42 wives we've had some evidence that officers were visited by managers from the sds at the recruitment stage to explain the role the long hours and the weekend duties
00:38:56 and the weekend duties is that something that you did not do i didn't do that you've emphasized in your witness statement the importance of stability and
00:39:03 and home life
00:39:04 home life was anything done to monitor the stability of an officer's home life once he had commenced his deployment no
00:39:27 was anything done to monitor the well-being of the officer's wives during deployments no
00:39:34 were any other concrete steps taken to
00:39:38 to take care of the wives no
00:39:42 would you accept that this role
00:39:46 role asked a lot of the officer's wife or partner yes i would with hindsight do you think that the
00:39:55 that the care and attention that was paid to them could have been better yes i do
00:40:02 would it be right in thinking that during your tenure the length of a deployment was typically absent exceptional circumstances about four years
00:40:13 four years yes
00:40:15 yes although i think it was too long was there any concern that the longer the deployment the greater the risk to the well-being of the officer
00:40:27 at the time possibly not although i can't be absolutely sure what i was seeking at the time probably that's more something i've thought of since
00:40:42 i've thought of since was there any concern at the time that the longer the deployment the greater the risk to his family life no i can't say there was and was there any consideration that the longer
00:40:52 longer the deployment the greater the risk of transgressions by the officer no
00:41:06 what was the rationale for a deployment of approximately four years that it took a while to get involved and they were productive for a while but the feeling was that if they were there for too long
00:41:17 for too long they would be detached from the normal work
00:41:20 work of the branch and therefore missing out on their career
00:41:27 and at what state was there any operational concern about how long it took to
00:41:28 took to infiltrate a group and so forth
00:41:34 i don't think was an operational concern it did take time you mentioned a moment ago that you did have a concern about the length of deployment when when did that concern occur to you
00:41:45 occur to you i can't
00:41:46 i can't say specifically uh the time obviously it's something we we must have discussed between us um
00:41:56 um it's more in recent times i thought back and realized that possibly four years was too long
00:42:01 i'd like now to ask you a series of questions based upon annual reports for the sds during the time in which you were serving
00:42:13 serving in that unit and i'd like to start with the
00:42:14 the 1974 report which is at tab 1 of the bundle sir it's
00:42:22 it's mps-0730906
00:42:38 now you said in your witness statement that you remember drafting a lot of this report
00:42:39 report presumably this was the first one you had a hand in with it starts with the covering letter that uh did you have a
00:42:51 that uh did you have a significant role in the drafting of the report itself ah this one is dated the covering letter 22nd of march 74. uh it's just the file if we can
00:43:05 74. uh it's just the file if we can go through till we get the beginning of the report please that
00:43:12 that opening letter is i think misplaced it is
00:43:20 thank you this is the 1974 report yes is it right that you played quite an influential role in this report
00:43:31 report if this is the yes the one which would have been produced towards the end of 74 then certainly i would have had some input in the draft team because derek
00:43:44 input in the draft team because derek knew and i would have written most of it between us it was written on the fourth effect well it signed on the fourth of february 1975 by derrick neil and yes well then we would both have been involved in drafting
00:43:54 drafting okay
00:43:57 okay if we can go to page 13 on the electronic file please
00:44:02 and to paragraph 20.
00:44:10 that reads the most traumatic event of the year was the anti-fascist demonstration on the 15th of june 1974 which culminated in the death of kevin gately
00:44:22 gately having lacked a sufficiently interesting broad-fronted target for some time the ultra left eventually decided to combat the re-emergent re-emerging specter of
00:44:37 the re-emergent re-emerging specter of fascism as exemplified by the national front the june demonstration provided the opportunity and urged on by the international marxist group and the communist party of england marxist leninist a violent confrontation between demonstrators and police occurred
00:44:50 demonstrators and police occurred with many of those present armed with large pieces of timber in the shape of flagpoles and banners charging the police lines in an effort to stop the
00:45:03 police lines in an effort to stop the national front holding their meeting in conway hall fortunately the sds gave fall warning of both the size of the demonstration and the possible disorder which might occur
00:45:16 occur gaitly's death introduced a note of harsh reality so that subsequent demonstrators both in the metropolitan police district and at leicester did not achieve the aims of the militant minority
00:45:29 minority now were you in the sds when the demonstration took place yes did you write this part of the report i can't remember
00:45:41 i can't remember i can't remember without referring to any specific individuals how do you know that the sds gave forewarning of both the size of the demonstration and the possible disorder
00:45:59 demonstration and the possible disorder oh clearly it would have been people who were involved in those organizations i don't know which ones i can't at this stage say which uh which organization or which of our offices and in which
00:46:11 or which of our offices and in which organization um produce i think probably several of them i don't really have the answer to that are you able to say
00:46:25 are you able to say whether or not sds intelligence made a difference to the police response i would think it did yes you're thinking it did but presumably a counter-demonstration on this scale will have been advertised
00:46:39 certainly but
00:46:43 but the detail of exactly how this might happen
00:46:44 happen um
00:46:52 was important in the sense that police could be in the right place at the right time in sufficient numbers i think that's what amounts to and is it right to say that it's difficult for you in your role to know precisely uh what contribution sds
00:47:05 precisely uh what contribution sds intelligence made as opposed to say information openly available no i think uh the only person who could answer that one probably would be somebody running c squad at the time who
00:47:16 somebody running c squad at the time who who wrote the threat assessment but uh i don't know now
00:47:21 now we can take that down moving on to clashes between the far left and the far right generally
00:47:35 was it something that occurred often
00:47:36 often in that era yes and was it your impression that it was the far left initiating the trouble the far right initiating the trouble or a
00:47:48 far right initiating the trouble or a bit of both i would have to say a bit of both
00:47:50 both and when the far left sought to disrupt the meetings of the far right
00:48:00 far right were the far right acting lawfully in conducting these meetings
00:48:07 yes probably and vice versa
00:48:14 i'm sorry vice versa when the far right interrupt the far left's meetings and try to prevent them from taking place uh yes
00:48:28 yes but i have to say that i suspect that uh on each side there was the opportunity to have a go at the other so i'm not sure at what point the legal one moved into the illegal one i see
00:48:34 i see uh can i move now to the workers revolutionary party and can we go back to the
00:48:41 to the 1974 report so that's uh oh 730
00:48:48 906
00:48:58 and if we could have paragraph page 15 please
00:48:59 please paragraph 28.
00:49:08 you write or you have a hand in a report which includes the paragraph the workers revolutionary party heartened by its recruiting campaigns
00:49:21 recruiting campaigns during both recent general elections and by its growing financial support will clearly be in the van of industrial unrest but recent internal schisms
00:49:33 unrest but recent internal schisms within the central committee may well curtail its ambitions being a highly disciplined organization expecting immediate obedience from its members it has not so far caused any
00:49:47 members it has not so far caused any undue problems in the field of public order
00:49:49 order it's fair to say isn't it that the wrp was not a public order problem that is correct
00:49:59 correct and is it also right to say that although it had the aim of overthrowing parliamentary democracy
00:50:07 democracy it was going about furthering those aims in lawful ways
00:50:21 largely although i think um they were always interested in info infiltrating trade unions and therefore using the power of trade unions so how far is that legal i don't know um i wonder
00:50:29 wonder there's a doubt in my mind always about the extent to which um
00:50:36 a revolutionary group could
00:50:37 could influence
00:50:38 influence a legal group like trade unions operating perfectly legitimately using their power infiltrating the labour party as they did
00:50:46 did um
00:50:51 um how far is that illegal i don't know i think this is uh something which is beyond me really uh
00:50:57 uh so the focus from the report appears to be the w
00:51:04 be the w rp's role in industry can you recall what it was that they were doing in industry that was of concern to the sds not now
00:51:10 not now that report or the the detail that we were producing on the wrp was really for the security service not for the police now in your witness statement we can
00:51:24 now in your witness statement we can turn the paragraph up if you want to see it again you've stated that the wrp was of interest to both special branch and the security service
00:51:38 yes um that was possibly me thinking right with a c squad hat on thinking they were going to be asked questions about the wrp
00:51:48 wrp by the security service and so we were helping the branch but it was security stuff security service interest really
00:51:56 did you ever call into question the infiltration of the w rp by your officers in circumstances where they were not acting criminally
00:52:09 where they were not acting criminally and were not a threat to public order no i didn't
00:52:10 i didn't and
00:52:18 and really that thoughts only come to me in recent times why were we there um and perhaps it was an area where um
00:52:19 um perhaps we were being too kind or the branch has been too kind to the security service
00:52:32 now i'm going to move to the 1975 report
00:52:34 report and there's a paragraph there we can turn it up if necessary but the the gist is that on many occasions organizers estimates
00:52:45 estimates of attendance that demonstrations were widely
00:52:46 widely inaccurate or they weren't communicated at all to the police
00:53:00 to the police can you help us with how the sds would know that an organizer's estimate was widely inaccurate well largely because the ses officers the field officers were in the organizations who were going to be involved with this and therefore had
00:53:17 be involved with this and therefore had a very clear idea what who was likely to take part and where and how what i'm driving at is that very often your officers were embedded in a branch sometimes a little bit higher up but very often they were infiltrating at branch level and could provide
00:53:31 branch level and could provide intelligence about what attendance from that branch would be but the overall estimate for a a large demonstration presumably came from elsewhere
00:53:46 elsewhere yes but i think um largely the um we're talking about the swp uh
00:53:47 uh there was communication between the branches people knew what was going to happen i think did you get feedback from a8
00:54:00 there were occasions yes when uh there was a feedback from the eight largely it was um
00:54:02 was um uh
00:54:05 uh with grateful thanks i think is the word that uh it's best for the term i could best use um that there was one occasion apart from on paper there was one occasion certainly when um
00:54:18 occasion certainly when um the head of uniform operations um came out to see the uh the field officers in one of the safe safe flats to say thanks for what was being done to make it make his life much easier
00:54:35 i'm going to move now to the 1976 report
00:54:36 report this is a documented tab 11 sir it's mps if we can have it up dash 0728 980
00:54:46 980 this is a report that was signed by you so presumably you either wrote it or it was written and approved for you and approved by you
00:55:00 i'm interested in page one at paragraph
00:55:02 paragraph one
00:55:04 one where there is some coverage of
00:55:10 or explanation for infiltration of uh
00:55:20 uh anti-racist groups so i'm picking it up from about two-thirds of the way down paragraph one where it reads however the potential for violence amongst revolutionary ultra-left groupings remains as strong as ever
00:55:33 as ever but it is beginning to reveal itself more in comparatively small local actions against in particular the ultra
00:55:44 actions against in particular the ultra right national front and national party where those involved hope to catch the police off their guard to combat this the sds has found it necessary to keep a close watch both on the extremist organizations
00:55:58 organizations and on local broad front anti-racialist groups through which the revolutionaries operate
00:56:11 were there any other reasons why the sds kept an eye on anti-racialist groups no
00:56:23 the same report if we can go to page four paragraph nine
00:56:33 thank you refers to the far right it reads for some months in 1975 an officer from the squad penetrated the national front at the behest of his parent trotskyist organization
00:56:48 parent trotskyist organization the information gained added nothing of real value to that obtainable from already excellent special branch sources and since the officers withdrawal early in 1976
00:57:02 1976 it has not been considered necessary to replace him if the metropolitan police is to keep the peace between the extremes of the political spectrum it is clearly essential that accurate
00:57:14 it is clearly essential that accurate information be readily available from both ends
00:57:19 both ends should existing sources on the far right show any sign of weakening the sds will give immediate consideration to renewed coverage there would it be fair to say you were offering the services of the sds to
00:57:34 offering the services of the sds to infiltrate the far right if the powers that be thought it necessary yes
00:57:41 and would it be right that an sds officer in a far right group would have the advantage of over perhaps alternative sources of being very immediate and somebody with whom you could have conversations twice a week
00:57:55 could have conversations twice a week and therefore will be very interactive yes
00:58:07 there is a suggestion in this paragraph that there were already sources within the far right i don't want you to go into any detail about what those sources were but
00:58:14 but other than that were there any reasons that you were aware of
00:58:23 aware of why the sds was not tasked to infiltrate the far right no we were support a support service supporting c-squad in this and if they needed it this is what
00:58:39 if they needed it this is what why i wrote it in that way if they needed it we would organize it could we go up one paragraph to power eight please
00:58:54 this paragraph differentiates between different types of anti-fascist and anti-racist group it says in the area of anti-fascist anti-racist committees there is a distinct dividing line between those controlled by members of the labour
00:59:08 controlled by members of the labour party and even the communist party of great britain and those controlled by elements of trotskyists maoists and anarchists the former cooperate with police in their street activities and steward
00:59:23 their street activities and steward demonstrations closely and are therefore of no concern to the special demonstration squad the second group however tend to be used by revolutionaries as a cloak for the
00:59:35 revolutionaries as a cloak for the organization of violent confrontations with the ultra right and the police whom they bracket together as fascists and enemies of the working
00:59:44 working class
00:59:46 class is this how anti-racist and anti-fascist groups were perceived by the sds yes and by special branch
00:59:57 branch yes i believe so i wrote that and i that's how i perceived it how do you [Music]
01:00:06 [Music] tell the difference between or define when an ultra left group has seized control of an anti-racist group just by the uh the rhetoric um going on within the meetings
01:00:22 would the personalities who were attending the meetings make any difference of course
01:00:30 i'd just like to explore whether this distinction was actually observed in practice
01:00:35 practice we've heard for example that the anti-apartheid movement was the subject of reporting almost entirely before your time although we found a report during your time
01:00:51 time but it was not controlled by the ultra left was it no it was not so
01:00:52 so why report on the anti-apartheid movement because at one time as i understand it they were involved in
01:01:04 disorder and [Music]
01:01:06 [Music] even
01:01:06 even a criminal damage
01:01:16 was it really a big threat weren't it weren't its uh marches actually very well stewarded oh the march is certainly i'm thinking more about the activities um
01:01:23 um against south african tours and so on and i was going to come to that the stop the 70 tour again before before your time of course
01:01:36 time of course uh but that was essentially controlled by a young liberal yes and so not the ultra left but that was very thoroughly infiltrated by the
01:01:47 by the sds
01:01:50 sds so why was that well simply because yes we needed the police needed to know what the next move was going to be was that for public order purposes yes
01:02:03 order purposes yes uh in i think in your era the stop all racialist tours although in the result i don't think it came to very much did it i don't think it did i can't recall but what was the reason for
01:02:15 reason for seeking intelligence about stop all racialist tours i would think a hangover from
01:02:23 the previous activity against um the south africans therefore the concern that may be that would be used by those who wanted to cause disorder
01:02:35 those who wanted to cause disorder prior reputation absolutely better put could we go to page three please of this file
01:02:49 file and to paragraph three i'm going to ask you some questions now about specific groups
01:02:50 groups paragraph three is about tom
01:03:04 paragraph three is about tom under present conditions the risk to the lives of the office is concerned would be too great to justify an attempt at direct coverage of the official and provisional wings of the irish republican movement
01:03:13 republican movement nevertheless much useful information has been obtained through involvement with the troops out movement the so-called trade union committee against the prevention of terrorism act and peace through freedom committee which was formed to coordinate opposition to the peace people from belfast the republican
01:03:36 peace people from belfast the republican organizations nervous of police activity under the prevention of terrorism act have shown little appetite for demonstrating their beliefs now what i'm interested in is where it says much useful information has been obtained now tom wasn't
01:03:51 now tom wasn't seeking to overthrow the state was it and
01:03:54 and tom wasn't much of a public order threat was it
01:04:01 was it could be i'm not sure it wasn't it was large at times it was an umbrella organization and
01:04:10 and was infiltrated or manipulated i think is probably the right word by the far left
01:04:13 left i think our concern always was that maybe
01:04:16 maybe it would turn into a problem and of course
01:04:17 course there were just while known people from the irish republican movement quietly involved there that was useful to have as well
01:04:32 as well i see so the the useful information was on
01:04:37 on harder core republicans and
01:04:38 and just in case they became recorded problem yes was that just in case
01:04:49 problem yes was that just in case approach a theme that runs through sds uh infiltration i think we try to be ahead of the game certainly
01:05:00 in terms of the anarchist groups we've heard some evidence that some anarchists could sometimes be violent is that fair yes
01:05:12 that fair yes was there any other reason for infiltrating anarchist groups no just
01:05:13 no just certainly
01:05:18 certainly in the broader sense violence extreme violence um as we've seen in the past bombings sorry bombings yes um but also um they were often people who would in a as a small
01:05:30 often people who would in a as a small group in the middle of a demonstration decided they were going to have a go at the police or maybe another organ another group maybe the fascist i don't know it was very
01:05:42 the fascist i don't know it was very much a case they were inclined to get involved in disorder we heard evidence on monday from a witness called roy creamer
01:05:54 witness called roy creamer who was a sergeant at the material time and an expert in the branch about anarchists he explained to us that not all anarchists were problematic and he painted a benign picture of the
01:06:07 and he painted a benign picture of the friends of freedom press or a relatively benign picture of the friends of freedom press did you make any attempts to separate and distinguish between anarchist groups
01:06:23 anarchist groups i would bow to roy creamer's um expert knowledge academic knowledge on the
01:06:28 on the anarchist side i think he was the only one in special branch who could uh describe the difference between one group of anarchists and situationists in germany um quite beyond me i'm afraid
01:06:41 um quite beyond me i'm afraid can i take that as a no you can yes could we go in this same file to page four please and paragraph seven
01:06:56 this is big flame now
01:06:56 now the background to this is this was a year in which richard clarke had been compromised and he was trying to enter
01:07:10 and he was trying to enter big flame wasn't he at the time when he was compromised yes it reads a sinister big flame organization which originated in the
01:07:25 organization which originated in the north west but soon spread to london was the subject of close scrutiny until september
01:07:30 september for security reasons it was decided to withdraw
01:07:31 withdraw the organization comprises a number of hitherto unaligned revolutionaries from the shop floor of industry
01:07:44 the shop floor of industry combined with a clique of well-educated individuals several with angry brigade associations whilst there has been no known illegality in its london activities it has been responsible for violence in
01:07:58 has been responsible for violence in liverpool and there is little doubt that a large number of its members would be inclined to follow that path given the right circumstances whereas the ultra left as a whole claims
01:08:09 whereas the ultra left as a whole claims to be security conscious no organization has shown practical ingenuity in the field of investigation to compare with that of big flame there is little doubt that this
01:08:20 there is little doubt that this organization has more to hide and hence more to fear
01:08:35 more to fear from the police than some of the others now would it be right to say that the practical ingenuity that you were referring to was finding richard clarke's death certificate yes
01:08:37 and
01:08:50 you describe the group as sinister but at the same time halfway down that paragraph it says there is no known illegality was this concern about big flame
01:09:02 was this concern about big flame essentially built upon suspicion rather than hard fact yes it was
01:09:13 and we have heard that it was an organization which had quite an interest in women's rights do you recall that no
01:09:19 and you obviously think that they've got something to hide did you ever get to the bottom of what it was no
01:09:29 no did you ever find out whether they were hiding anything no i'm hesitant talking about that paragraph okay uh i won't take it any further
01:09:44 okay uh i won't take it any further uh i will ask that we on the same page we go down to paragraph 10.
01:09:58 this is a paragraph about product it says the quality and quantity of materials submitted by the sds offices has been maintained at a consistently high level throughout the year under review
01:10:10 review whilst the value of up to the minute information about forthcoming public order matters is easily understood less obvious is a considerable saving in police time
01:10:21 police time produced by a constant flow of reports about people and organizations involved in extreme political activity these
01:10:34 in extreme political activity these reports form an essential part of the base of information which enables special branch to provide accurate assessments of the strength and threat of demonstrations and to bring if we could go over the page please
01:10:47 if we could go over the page please into the realms of reason the claims about numbers of participants made by organizers um i will stop there
01:10:59 organizers um i will stop there and i've drawn that to your attention mr kraft because reading it suggests that special branch found reporting on individuals of value
01:11:11 individuals of value and when we discussed this issue this morning
01:11:12 morning you
01:11:13 you told us that reporting on individuals was essentially for the benefit of the security service
01:11:33 security service that is correct but of course the branch was uh working for the security service in the area of subversion the organizations and the people and what was happening had been happening throughout my service and well before that i believe that the security service would ask the special
01:11:47 security service would ask the special branch please can you identify a b and c um
01:11:48 um because
01:11:50 because they consider them subversive and somebody would then have to go out on inquiries to discover who these people were
01:11:56 were now
01:11:57 now if if we were feeding information in advance then it saved an awful lot of time
01:12:02 time perhaps if we could um go back up the page so we've got the first bit of that paragraph to hand thank you i mean this does seem to be
01:12:16 thank you i mean this does seem to be going beyond that it's talking about it being a useful base of information enabling special branch to provide accurate assessments we've heard evidence that those who compile the threat assessments took into account
01:12:34 threat assessments took into account not what might be called just immediate intelligence but also background intelligence about groups and individuals are you able to help us with whether or not
01:12:38 not reporting on individuals was used for that purpose no i can't help with that
01:12:48 and finally um if we go to page 12 of this file
01:12:59 now this is an unsigned copy of a letter from
01:13:00 from assistant commissioner crime wilson to r armstrong deputy under secretary of state
01:13:07 state at the home office and at page 13 of the file third paragraph down
01:13:25 it says i would therefore seek authority for the continuation of these activities that's a continuation of the sds the degree of coverage considered necessary is under constant review and all the squad systems and areas of
01:13:38 and all the squad systems and areas of coverage have recently been examined in detail by a working party comprising three chief superintendents in special
01:13:51 three chief superintendents in special branch in order to ensure the minimizing of risk and of unnecessary activity by the squad
01:13:53 the squad i am pleased to say that the number of officers who are purely operational in this field has gradually been reduced from the original 26
01:14:06 from the original 26 in 1968 to a current strength of 12 this has to a degree being achieved by more effective use of operational personnel and under present conditions is the
01:14:18 and under present conditions is the minimum by which adequate intelligence can be obtained over the wide extremist spectrum
01:14:24 spectrum now we'll come in a moment to the working party that's referred to because we understand that you sat on that
01:14:33 on that but my question at this stage is as far as you are aware was that working party the only
01:14:40 the only formal review of what the sds was doing during your tenure it is the only formal review i can remember and so
01:14:52 and so where the letter says the degree of coverage considered necessary is under constant
01:14:58 constant review
01:15:06 is that painting a picture of rather more review than was actually going on i think uh painting a slightly strong picture in the sense that we all we kept an eye on it in the sense there was no point in
01:15:19 in the sense there was no point in covering something which wasn't it wasn't a value
01:15:24 equally was there something we should be looking at which we weren't now if you will just keep in mind the statistics about the number of officers i'm going to come back to those later but if you take note of those
01:15:36 but if you take note of those um before we go into the working party
01:15:49 um before we go into the working party there are two more documents i'd like to show you from the years 1976 and 1977. if we could take this one down please and if we could have up next the document at tab 16 which is mps-0730729
01:16:05 this is a letter of thanks from the lancashire police dated the 20th of september 1976 uh in relation to the action against racism demonstration in blackburn which
01:16:18 racism demonstration in blackburn which had taken place on the 11th of september 1970
01:16:31 was that really thanks not to macintosh and walker but the underlying undercover officer's coverage of events i would believe so and if we take that down and have up please a document which is at tab 18 mps-0730-700
01:16:56 um
01:17:08 thank you this is a letter of thanks addressed to you from the security service day to the 23rd of june 1977. says i've been asked by our desk involved with the socialist workers
01:17:25 involved with the socialist workers party to convey their gratitude for the flow of information you are sending us on the activities of the swp this is very much appreciated it's right to say the security service were very interested in the swp weren't they yes just a little
01:17:37 just a little uh how frequently did you get feedback about the sds really and how much of it was positive and how much of it was negative i don't recall anything negative
01:17:54 i don't recall anything negative if we could take that down please and if we could have up in its place mps-0730 745 tap nine of your bundle sir
01:18:07 this is the what i'm going to call the whopped working party and this is a working party set up to review uh essentially the utility of the sds wasn't it
01:18:16 wasn't it yes
01:18:17 yes and
01:18:21 and you are in high-ranking company aren't you
01:18:28 you yes simon's obviously the new boy chief superintendent r wilson hn 332
01:18:31 hn 332 together with chief inspector neil and yourself all being chaired by chief superintendent watts
01:18:40 watts the record describes the conclusions of the working party as unanimous
01:18:48 unanimous is that correct yes
01:18:53 although i should say i don't actually remember any discussions but i'm sure
01:19:04 remember any discussions but i'm sure that we would not have disagreed well i was asking you that because the police now and certainly in those days was a very disciplined hierarchical organization wasn't it yes the branch was never really like that i see so did you feel you'd had your say of course of course
01:19:20 now the looking at it bit by bit paragraph one essentially is communicating the fact there'd been a decline in violent disorder it reads certainly the degree of violence
01:19:31 certainly the degree of violence associated with public demonstrations has declined since the formation of the squad in 1968 and was it that decline that it essentially prompted the review
01:19:44 prompted the review probably
01:19:45 probably do you know no
01:19:50 paragraph two
01:19:51 two says with respect to the degree of coverage considered necessary by the sds two aspects are of primary importance firstly the degree of involvement and
01:20:04 firstly the degree of involvement and manipulation exercise by the ultra left in all protest organizations particularly in ad hoc committees formed to arrange major demonstrations
01:20:18 to arrange major demonstrations secondly the number of splinter groups continually being formed invariably consisting of militant elements the latter do not recognize the need to liaise with police regarding proposed demonstrations and pickets
01:20:29 demonstrations and pickets many of which are organized at short notice and coverage within or access to these organizations is essential if adequate police arrangements are to be made
01:20:40 made so that's
01:20:47 so that's plainly making the case isn't it for continuing the sds yes can i ask you why was it that the police couldn't simply
01:20:57 simply monitor open sources talk to the protesters and do without the sds largely because
01:21:09 largely because those involved didn't want to talk to the police were looking to cause confrontation at times um and the only way we could get the intelligence necessary to please them proportionately
01:21:25 to please them proportionately was to have people close to the ground now accepting that there were some advantages of having an undercover officer the immediacy we've talked about the flexibility of instructions and so forth
01:21:37 forth did it really make all that much difference i think it made a considerable difference to policing of public order in the metropolitan police that is my view and it's based on
01:21:49 and it's based on based upon the fact that um those who ran the policing side the uniform policing side took that view in my time and i knew
01:22:00 in my time and i knew more than one of them you're hinting that you've got personal feedback is that fair
01:22:15 is it a case simply that resources were better allocated because of the sds or are you saying that the intelligence provided
01:22:27 provided stopped more serious public disorder occurring i think both i think it did prevent serious disorder very often no not very often quite
01:22:38 no not very often quite from time to time but also was a value in terms of the police resources
01:22:48 moving down to the unnumbered paragraph directly under two
01:22:55 nevertheless with the reduction in political public disorders the strength of the sds has gradually been reduced from the original 26 operational offices to the current 12 officers engaged in the field it is agreed that this is the minimum coverage necessary to prove
01:23:09 minimum coverage necessary to prove effective and might have to be increased if the situation deteriorated where did the figure 26 operational offices come from well that came from the original um
01:23:20 the original um group set up in 1968 when um conrad dixon was instructed to pull
01:23:33 conrad dixon was instructed to pull together a group of people and they used to go mob handed to meetings because they hadn't got a clue what was happening so they went along if they thought it won more chance if two or three went into one of these meetings one of them might uh get in so yes they had more people do you know who your source was where did you get that
01:23:46 your source was where did you get that where where did that number come from i thought it came from the opens i may be wrong here the open source report of conrad dixon and i
01:23:58 and i which i've read i found it on on uh on the web but i i wouldn't have known that at that time but i i'm asking you where the figure came from at that time i don't know whether it was on the the original sds file i don't know
01:24:10 file i don't know we haven't been able to find it i'm sorry when there were 26 sds officers
01:24:17 officers um
01:24:20 um is it possible that uh that this was inaccurate being seven and a half years after the event always possible yes but they did have a lot of people
01:24:35 moving to paragraph three bearing in mind the primary task of the sds is to provide intelligence in the public order field it is difficult to proportion their value in this field compared with the spin the off-pin
01:24:46 compared with the spin the off-pin information provided for the security service
01:24:50 service for example if an officer covers a meeting
01:24:51 meeting called to discuss whether to demonstrate or not and the latter view prevails then the only positive result of his
01:25:03 the only positive result of his attendance is seen in the subsequent report of individuals attending etc which is of interest to box 500. nevertheless his reasons for attending are of equal importance from a public order point of view
01:25:15 order point of view do you mean the value of negative reporting yes now
01:25:19 now first of all the
01:25:22 the security service is just the benefit to them is described as offspin
01:25:31 offspin to what extent is this formally observing at the ultimate defense line that we looked at earlier
01:25:42 looked at earlier and keeping to a mantra that the primary task is public order and or to what extent is it actually a correct
01:25:53 a correct reflection of what was happening on the ground
01:26:01 the primary object was public order but
01:26:02 but clearly
01:26:06 clearly it was a great benefit to the security service
01:26:11 service and the branch in terms of saving time in following up on security service inquiries
01:26:12 inquiries so although its purpose with public order and there would be if public order had not been
01:26:23 had not been public order intelligence had not been essential then i can't say the sta should have should continue
01:26:29 the next paragraph at the bottom of the very bottom of the page makes clear that the committee thought that
01:26:35 that a very considerable benefit had been conferred on the security service by the sds and it had been fully acknowledged does that fairly reflect the position i believe so and then over the page
01:26:55 and then over the page it says at the conclusion of the working party's deliberations i spoke with dac gibson and commander fleming of a department does i mean rolo watts
01:27:04 yes it's signed off by roller watts so yes or put another way do you recall speaking to d.a.c gibson and commander no i did not that was rollo watts i was assured that the information and
01:27:16 i was assured that the information and assessments prepared by special branch regarding impending demonstrations is considered to be of extreme importance to the uniform branch not only to assist in providing adequate police coverage but also to avoid overreaction which
01:27:34 but also to avoid overreaction which could in itself lead to a provocative situation in this respect the chief superintendents of all operational squads in the branch speak most highly of the assistance rendered by the sds first of all is it right that all
01:27:47 first of all is it right that all operational squads benefited from the sds because we've heard talk primarily of c squad with a little bit of b squad i'm sorry primarily c squad i can imagine no i
01:27:58 no i think i'm trying to think really for b squad it was very little um
01:28:05 um e squad
01:28:08 e squad which of course is dealing with international um i'm thinking now of anything involved grundwick obviously a clear example where
01:28:17 where uh the vast majority of those who were protesting about their wages and so on of course were asian and therefore that would be e squad i think to some extent but no c squad i think was the
01:28:29 was the one that mattered and the adjective extreme extreme importance to uniform branch might there be a little hyperbole a little i think
01:28:45 it's a feature of the documents we've been looking at that very senior officers speak in superlatives about the sds when seeking funding from the home office did you get the impression that there was
01:28:56 was considerable enthusiasm at the senior levels of the metropolitan police for the sds to continue yes i did and why was that
01:29:11 was that i think mainly for public work for public order i think police
01:29:12 police in the
01:29:17 in the 1970s and 80s had to learn a lot of lessons
01:29:20 lessons in terms of public order and
01:29:22 and accurate
01:29:29 accurate timely intelligence was vital in terms of the proportion of policing and keeping the peace and in terms of relationship with the security service in the home office was it regarded as a good thing i believe so
01:29:59 can we move now to visit by the commissioner in your witness statement you refer to recalling a visit by sir david mcnee yes um was this whilst you were the dci of
01:30:11 um was this whilst you were the dci of the sds or was that when you were chief superintendent well i was the dci what can you remember about it i can remember he was keen to come and see the the field officers that he had a very pleasant social
01:30:24 pleasant social time i think we had lunch um
01:30:27 um he was a very practical policeman um and it was a a useful day good for morale now you will have seen in the bundle uh
01:30:40 now you will have seen in the bundle uh some documents which were prepared for a subsequent commissioner kenneth newman uh in 1983 i think it is it was a pack similar to that prepared for sir david macknee i don't think it
01:30:54 for sir david macknee i don't think it was i think it was less formal than that i think
01:31:00 i think he said he was coming i i went with him and i briefed him on what it was all about and
01:31:04 about and no i don't think we were quite so formal is it fair to say then sir david mcnee
01:31:16 is it fair to say then sir david mcnee would have known which areas were being infiltrated and have met the office is concerned he would have met them yes and can you recall how long he stayed no i can't i would have thought two or three hours but i really i'm guessing
01:31:30 guessing and did he have uh time for conversation with individual undercover police officers
01:31:35 officers i think he would have had time i can't remember whether he did have individual conversations we didn't hold a meeting he was chatting to everybody and what feedback did you receive from him
01:31:51 nothing formal i think he said he enjoyed the visit but that was informal to me did he express any concerns to you about the sds
01:31:59 the sds no
01:32:03 any anxieties for example the operational security no none at all
01:32:13 can i move now from the sds to
01:32:14 to first of all 1979
01:32:18 1979 and the
01:32:22 and the demonstration at southall at which blair peach received fatal injuries one of our anonymous officers has given evidence that he was instructed to attend
01:32:32 attend blair peach's funeral in 1979.
01:32:43 blair peach's funeral in 1979. he thought that it might have been you who so instructed him was it i don't recall instructing anybody to go is it possible oh it's possible but i don't recall it what was the police interest in blair peach's
01:32:52 peach's funeral
01:32:54 funeral i don't know is the answer that's why i'm doubtful about whether it was my instruction i don't know was there general concern that blair peach's death the inquest
01:33:10 that blair peach's death the inquest and the justice campaign were bad news for the metropolitan police well certainly it was bad news for metropolitan police because the inquest um
01:33:21 um came up with the fact that um he was probably killed by a police officer and did the metropolitan police want to be a head of the game in knowing what the justice campaign was going to do not that i'm aware of
01:33:42 are you aware of the sds taking a special interest in blair peach and the justice campaign or not only to the extent that it would have been
01:33:50 been wise to be involved in case it was going to turn into go beyond the campaign into some sort of disorder
01:34:04 now we're trying to trace the dates at which you were chief superintendent of s squad
01:34:15 squad we think that you may have started as an acting chief superintendent from about february 1981. does that sound right i don't think i ever went there as acting chief superintendent i think i the post became vacant
01:34:22 vacant um
01:34:23 um while i was when i was promoted chief superintendent uh and that was that's why i went there uh
01:34:37 uh your substantive promotion we believe was may or june 1981 does that sound about right it's about right yes and we think that you stayed in that role until about april or may 1984
01:34:53 it was her latest 84 might have been end of 83 i don't know i'm not sure i can't fix it
01:35:00 fix it and esquad was a wide remit wasn't it all operational support to special branches yes and your role vis-a-vis the sds was
01:35:12 and your role vis-a-vis the sds was oversight wasn't it can you help us with how you oversaw the sds yes
01:35:12 yes um
01:35:14 um daily telephone contact with chief inspector or inspectoristius either by myself or the superintendent um
01:35:23 um visits occasionally out to see the the field officers um
01:35:33 um and at that yes at that time though that time their office was down the road but the quite often the the chief inspector or inspector would be over and would come into my office to chat to sort that sort out any problems there might have been so it was fairly close
01:35:48 fairly close what sort of things did you discuss what they were doing how uh were there any welfare problems um
01:35:56 um any problems the chief inspector was having
01:35:57 having um
01:35:58 um just generally how the unit was operating and would that have included when a new officer came along probably i can't think of any specific occasion and in consultation with the
01:36:11 occasion and in consultation with the other chief superintendents would you uh
01:36:22 other chief superintendents would you uh put in your opinion as to where it might be useful for an officer to be deployed uh
01:36:23 uh probably
01:36:24 probably not although it might have cropped up more likely that would be a conversation between the chief inspector scs and chief superintendent c squad
01:36:40 superintendent c squad we know that in around this era the sds starts infiltrating some new targets one of which is cnd are you able to help us as to why the sds might have become interested in cnd
01:36:52 cnd my recollection is that the only time we were really interested in cnd was the green and common women clearly
01:37:01 clearly we couldn't get male officers into that and we
01:37:03 and we we had recruited a lady who would go and join the green and green green and common women so that's that's why we were if you like cnd involved you certainly did that um but you also
01:37:18 you certainly did that um but you also had an officer who we know as hn 65 who infiltrated cnd itself
01:37:31 itself can you can you recall what the concern was about cnd no i can't can you talk can you recall whether there was any pressure
01:37:38 pressure from any quarter outside the police to take an interest in cnd no i can't was there anything coming from the home office or from government not that enough
01:37:51 the other field was animal rights activism which grew what was the concern there oh the concern there was
01:38:00 fire bombs attacks on um uh
01:38:04 uh research centers uh in other words quite a kin look a terrorism filled top
01:38:17 a kin look a terrorism filled top um and that's why we were interested it started off in a small way i think in fact the whole thing started with one
01:38:19 with one policeman in essex who was keeping an index and i think the branch eventually took it on because it became national uh and
01:38:27 uh and the whole like once we decided started look at it we realized that it was quite a dangerous thing to developing
01:38:37 now we've got a document in the bundle which shows that you in the role of chief superintendent esquad were invited with many others to a party by the security service you know the
01:38:49 by the security service you know the documents i mean i know the document i had absolutely no recollection of that meeting
01:39:06 why were you invited to that party was it was it because the sds fell within your remit i would imagine sir and were the security service keen to maintain that relationship by uh schmoozing you i presume so can you recall anything of what happened
01:39:20 can you recall anything of what happened no i can't i have no recollection at all i've seen the piece of paper like mandatory passage of time or the intensity of the festivities
01:39:33 festivities neither i just i don't nothing at all all right
01:39:34 all right i shall move on in your role did you have any function liaising with bodies outside the police other than the security service
01:39:45 security service for example the home office or
01:39:52 or her majesty's inspectorate of constabulary annual reports we won't go through the annual reports from this era in the detail that we looked at the those from the 1970s
01:40:04 the 1970s but
01:40:04 but at this stage the annual reports are crossing your desk on their way up the chain of command aren't they yes
01:40:15 chain of command aren't they yes you uh endorse each one of them in glowing terms don't you yes vital components firmly behind the sds you talk about the contribution to the public order sphere about animal rights
01:40:33 public order sphere about animal rights targeting being well advanced about them having an excellent year and so forth
01:40:42 what was the purpose of endorsing them in such glowing terms because it was true and did you understand that these reports
01:40:49 reports were on their way to the home office to secure continuing funding certainly and so would it be right to say you were fully convinced of the ongoing utility of the sds yes i was
01:41:03 of the sds yes i was was your conviction in the utility of the sds
01:41:04 the sds increasing decreasing or the same as it was when you had been in charge i would say the same
01:41:24 now can i move to the second uh commissioner's visit uh that of sir sir kenneth newman in 1983
01:41:31 were you involved in preparations for that visit i don't
01:41:38 i don't i'm not sure i've seen the piece of paper where this is referred to um i think i met him at the sds office which was not in scotland yard
01:41:50 yard but i think i didn't go with him i think i left that to david short who was the chief inspector did you see the briefing paper no
01:42:02 and you said that you explained the workings of s squad to the commissioner presumably you wouldn't have lost the opportunity to plug the sds to him of course
01:42:11 course and what was sir kenneth newman's attitude to the sds
01:42:17 i don't i don't recall his attitude i think he was just interested
01:42:25 did he know anything of the arrests of officers
01:42:32 i doubt it of the use of dis deceased children's identities i don't think so of sexual activity between undercover police officers and members of the public i wouldn't think so
01:42:43 public i wouldn't think so and of the conviction of some officers in their undercover identities i don't think that was mentioned
01:42:52 was it fair to say that uh the impression that was being given was entirely positive one of course so would this be a good time to break certainly it would um
01:43:08 certainly it would um so that uh we all have some idea of how much uh there is to go are you able to give an estimate of uh your questions yes i'm doing quite well i'm nearly finished yes good i should imagine i'm certainly less than half an hour yes um day is not actually anywhere near ended yet because we have to have a pause while after mr
01:43:23 we have to have a pause while after mr barr has finished his own questions we have to have a pause while others may raise topics with him that they wish him to raise with you and my guess if you want it is that we
01:43:38 and my guess if you want it is that we will all still be here at five but not much beyond thank you sir mr fernandez neil neil
01:43:42 could you ask mr bart to come here
02:04:03 all rise please
02:04:19 thank you sir
02:04:28 mr kraft i'm just going to interject a question that goes back to your time as head of the sds uh we know that uh the sds infiltrated the workers revolutionary party
02:04:42 the workers revolutionary party two officers were involved in doing that it was on your watch that the infiltration of the workers revolutionary party came to an end no further officer was deployed into that group can you recall
02:04:55 that group can you recall why it was that it was decided that it was no longer necessary to do that i can't recall that specifically but i assume it's on the basis that we
02:05:07 assume it's on the basis that we couldn't justify covering it because it wasn't a public order problem now
02:05:08 now i'm conscious we don't have the cipher key to cover this officer and if there comes a point in time when it's not fair to you because you don't know who if you don't know who it is we're
02:05:20 who if you don't know who it is we're talking about say so and we'll deal with this line of questioning after the break but can we call up please the document at tab 37 which is mps-0526785
02:05:43 and if we we see there at page two that this is january 1984. you're signing it off as chief superintendent
02:05:55 superintendent uh you're signing you're sending this to commander ops this arrest of an sds field officer will have done no harm to his standing amongst his comrades
02:06:06 his standing amongst his comrades and then if we go to page three to see what that was about it says on friday the 13th of january 1984 detective constable hn12 a special demonstration squad
02:06:19 hn12 a special demonstration squad officer working under the assumed name of michael hartley within the revolutionary communist group was arrested by police from highbury vale police station for illegal bill posting
02:06:30 bill posting the circumstances were that dc
02:06:41 the circumstances were that dc hn 12 and privacy unemployed of privacy and rcg comrade had been directed by committee members of the rcg front organization irish solidarity movement to affix posters on appropriate premises
02:06:54 to affix posters on appropriate premises in holloway road a normal activity for a group of this nature advertising a forthcoming week of action concerning informers in ireland at 8 30 pm that evening pc 5a and pc 5b on patrol in a
02:07:09 evening pc 5a and pc 5b on patrol in a marked police vehicle apprehended both individuals in the act of pasting posters to a hoarding in holloway road dchn12 and privacy were arrested taken to highburyvale police station and
02:07:21 to highburyvale police station and charged with quote that you did on friday the 13th of january 1984 a fix a posting bill at holloway road n19 without the consent of the owner
02:07:39 without the consent of the owner contrary to section 54 subsection 10 metropolitan police act 18 39
02:07:47 now what i would like to know first of all is that sufficient uh to remind you of the incident so that we can continue or would you like to wait until we can tell you who the officer was i don't need to know who the officer was i don't
02:07:58 need to know who the officer was i don't oh i just don't remember the case at all
02:08:05 and uh was there any con may not be worth me asking you any questions but what i'd like to ask you was there any consideration of the fairness of the prosecution
02:08:20 fairness of the prosecution of hn12s co-accused can you help us with that at all no i can't i don't remember the case i'm sorry can i move now to some of the officers who were serving
02:08:31 who were serving at the time and i am going to have to i think
02:08:36 think put hn12 back until we can tell you who he is do you know who i mean by hn67
02:08:54 no he's not on my pack i'm afraid hn 11 is a man who we can tell you with mike chitty can you remember mike chic yes what can you tell us of mr chitty's character
02:09:03 nothing the only connection i have i think
02:09:04 think is the organization he was covering i think that's about all i can remember
02:09:10 can you recall hn 106.
02:09:23 just again
02:09:24 again knowing very little i'm afraid
02:09:33 we understand that there was a concern that he was becoming known as a certain woman's boyfriend
02:09:43 boyfriend was that ever discussed with you no
02:09:45 no and we also understand that that there was some management concern within the sds that he might have been sleeping with another woman was that ever raised with you no it does not
02:09:59 hn126
02:10:17 yes i remember him did you as a person not so much on the squad
02:10:24 did you ever hear anything to the effect that he'd been that he had become close to a female activist
02:10:29 or that something sexual might be going on
02:10:33 can you help us with hn155
02:10:44 yes
02:10:55 what can you tell us about with about his character in relation to women in relation to women at all um i think that's that's all i'm okay i'm interested in at this stage can i move to assumption of positions of
02:11:10 to assumption of positions of responsibility whilst you were chief superintendent there were some officers in the sds who
02:11:21 there were some officers in the sds who got into significant positions with the socialist workers party in particular hn150 got into the headquarters of the socialist workers party
02:11:36 yes did you know that i don't recall that now he was able from that position to
02:11:47 he was able from that position to provide membership lists and so forth lots of
02:11:50 lots of information about the inner workings of the swp
02:11:55 the swp does that jog your memory it doesn't actually um i my recollection is that he was not the prime
02:12:02 the prime source at senior level with swp
02:12:18 are you able to comment upon what you would have thought if you had known that there was a member of the sds within the swp's headquarters either taking or copying it i would have documents i would have thought it was a great value to the security service
02:12:31 security service would you have considered it proper or improper proper
02:12:40 would you have considered at all the propriety of taking confidential information as a police officer by deception
02:12:49 was the officer you were thinking about hn 80
02:12:51 hn 80 who
02:12:52 who yes who also became quite prominent within the swp
02:13:01 how aware were you of his prominence
02:13:12 in detail at the time i wasn't i've learned more since um but i'd gather he was
02:13:13 was um
02:13:16 um pretty prominent i think he he was a main source of intelligence and was the institutional view at the time that that was a jolly good thing yes
02:13:23 yes with hindsight do you still adhere to that view i think it's tricky in terms of how much influence he had
02:13:39 how much influence he had i don't think they're involved in anything illegal but i think somebody who that close in could have found himself in a difficult situation
02:13:51 i want to ask you now a little bit about vetting we touched upon this earlier but if we could have up please
02:13:59 five mps-072759 five at page twenty seven now this should be the 1979 special branch annual report
02:14:11 branch annual report and it contains some statistics about vetting
02:14:16 vetting and it talks about inquiries on individuals and organizations thank you very much could we have the the top of the page first please some general um statistics about
02:14:29 some general um statistics about inquiries and individuals and reports in the thousands and then vetting vetting inquiries for box 500 2846.
02:14:41 can you help us with what vetting inquiries for box 500 would be
02:14:56 not from the sds point of view i have a vague recollection of
02:15:06 being given a betting inquiry when i was probably a detective constable or maybe a sergeant on c
02:15:12 trying to discover about an individual what was on the background of an individual i can't tell you more than that i don't really know what it was i just remember there were things like vetting inquiries would it be right to say that when vetting inquiries came in
02:15:26 vetting inquiries came in one of the places an officer might look uh would be registry files oh yes and therefore it would follow would it that some of the information which might be used would include that that had been gathered by the sds yes
02:15:43 thank you we will find you the names of the officers i want to ask you about during the 20-minute break so that those can be put to you but other than that that's it from me for the moment okay thank you yeah
02:15:54 thank you yeah um we will now have a 20-minute break so that uh any topics that anyone wishes mr barr to raise can be put to him and he
02:16:05 barr to raise can be put to him and he can decide whether or not to raise them with you thank you and then at the end if there is any re-examination that will bring the your evidence to a conclusion and i may have been unduly pessimistic we'll see
02:52:33 all rise please
02:52:48 first of all thank you sir there are a number of further matters to ask mr kraft about mr kraft can we start first of all with the document which is at ucpi five zeros two seven five one five
02:53:04 now this is a note
02:53:08 note made by the security service of a visit
02:53:20 of a visit that they made to the sds in july 1982 and it appears that hn 68 was the
02:53:25 was the detective inspector speaking on behalf of the sds at the time but it obviously falls within the time when you were the chief superintendent it's paragraph
02:53:39 it's paragraph five that i'm interested in it says despite his misdemeanors cooper has not been withdrawn as an sds source now cooper is the cover name for hn155
02:53:59 he claimed that he was acting on the advice of his solicitors in not making maintenance payments hn 68 is still very worried by the case because cooper's position
02:54:10 because cooper's position in the right to work movement gives him regular access to ernie roberts mp and meetings at the house of commons
02:54:27 and meetings at the house of commons first of all mr kraft were you aware that one of the sds's officers had regular access to a member of parliament and his meetings at the house of commons no i did not
02:54:43 it appears that one reading of this document is there was considerable concern
02:54:45 concern that if
02:54:47 that if as a result of hn155
02:54:57 marital difficulties anything was to come out about
02:54:59 about the fact that mr roberts roberts's meetings had been infiltrated by an
02:55:14 meetings had been infiltrated by an undercover officer would be embarrassing do you recall any concerns arising from hn 155
02:55:17 hn 155 divorce proceedings no i don't
02:55:25 would it have been a concern to you if you had known that an sds undercover officer had regular access to an mp and meetings at
02:55:36 regular access to an mp and meetings at the house of commons yes i think i would have been concerned and what would your concern have been becoming too close with politics and that is legitimate politics
02:55:52 can i ask you now about something completely different uh you have
02:55:57 you have given us evidence about the character of hn 300 and hn 297 richard clarke said you didn't know much about them
02:56:14 much about them in circumstances where a number of other witnesses have described them in terms which might cast out upon
02:56:16 upon how safe they were to be left as undercover officers with members of the opposite sex can you help us with any explanation
02:56:29 with any explanation for that difference in take about their characters yes i can
02:56:34 yes i can i suspect
02:56:37 i suspect that
02:56:41 that the behavior they are reported to have been up to um was such that
02:56:50 they did not want senior officers to be become aware because of the effect he would have had upon their career and that's why i'm sure that neither my deputy nor i would have known about it
02:57:09 the other factor i would say that as far as richard clark is concerned that i'm
02:57:15 that i'm becoming aware as this inquiry proceeds that what i knew of mr clark
02:57:22 mr clark is rather different from the fact and
02:57:23 and i know i think perhaps that uh
02:57:31 i should have been aware on the other hand
02:57:33 hand people
02:57:34 people who are good at um putting up a front can sometimes confuse one
02:57:41 one and
02:57:47 i'll leave it at that i think i'm not happy about um mr clark at all now you
02:57:53 now you accepted in evidence that there was a
02:57:56 a with the benefit of hindsight a risk that officers might engage in sexual activity with members of the public under
02:58:02 under cover
02:58:07 cover why was that a risk that you only appreciated with hindsight i have to say i think i was being naive at the time
02:58:18 we know a lot more now we learn as we go along and
02:58:23 along and that is a factor which would have to be considered in the future thank you
02:58:28 thank you raised perhaps rhetorically at one stage
02:58:29 one stage how does one prevent it meaning that sort of activity what are your thoughts on how does one prevent it
02:58:43 i don't know all i can say is that perhaps one it needs to be emphasized regularly with the before it starts and also regularly while the operation is continuing because i don't think there is
02:58:53 is any way of preventing it because these things happen but it um it is a problem did you
02:59:02 did you ever
02:59:04 ever take the view that these things happen whilst you were leading the sds no i did not
02:59:17 can i ask you now a specific question about
02:59:18 about hn354 vince harvey
02:59:28 his evidence was that he came to you to raise
02:59:32 to raise a problem that a female member of the group he was infiltrating the swp was taking
02:59:46 was taking an interest and amorous interest in him can you recall that no i'm sorry i can't did that happen well i don't recall it at all if it had happened do you think you would have recalled it oh yes i think so
03:00:06 a term which we've heard activists referred to as by the sds is where is were you familiar with that term no not at all
03:00:24 have you heard about it since no have you heard it used elsewhere i don't even know what it means it used to mean an activist no
03:00:38 when you were the chief superintendent of s squad did you come across bob lambert no
03:00:45 no did you meet bob lambert at reunions i don't think so i don't i wouldn't recognize the man
03:00:53 what was your reaction uh when it emerged
03:00:57 emerged that bob lambert had fathered a child whilst undercover
03:01:01 shock i think is the best way to put it
03:01:07 anything more
03:01:11 no one wonder how he had the time to be involved to that extent with somebody unless of course it was a one-off but i it wasn't
03:01:24 it wasn't it wasn't well exactly and i i wonder
03:01:33 i wonder what supervision was involved did was there more freedom was it more more national than london i don't know certainly um yes shock is the answer
03:01:39 the officer we know as hn298
03:01:57 yes gave evidence of an incident uh which culminated with him punching jerry lawless were you aware of that happening at the time no i wasn't do you know about it now no i i just
03:02:09 do you know about it now no i i just smiled because i had dealings with jerry lawless in other circumstances
03:02:19 if you had known about it at the time what would you have done about the fact one of your officers had assaulted jerry lawless
03:02:29 lawless well i think that that is something that we'd have had to look at and decide should that man be left out in the field because clearly he's not under control in those circumstances
03:02:38 and in terms of taking any formal action with the same qualifications that you raised earlier in your evidence about the difficulties of going through formal police
03:02:52 of going through formal police disciplinary proceedings oh yes apply yes
03:02:59 can i now ask for another document to be put up mps-0728-785
03:03:11 and we're back to rick gibson if we could go to paragraph to page three please
03:03:23 paragraph to page three please this is a report dated the 25th of march 1976
03:03:25 1976 and it's the bottom of the third paragraph that i'm interested in but before we look at that i think we
03:03:36 but before we look at that i think we better go to um your signature which is at the end at page 14. page four sorry so you see you've signed this report as achieve inspector yes yeah if we go back to page three paragraph three
03:03:51 to page three paragraph three i think really the point is at the end of that paragraph gibson was chosen to fill the post of convener
03:03:59 convener and privacy to take over from gibson as the tom
03:04:00 the tom london organizer so
03:04:07 so it seems from this document that you did know at the material time that
03:04:17 that richard clark had taken the post of convener
03:04:26 would it follow from that that at the time you were not concerned about him taking that post
03:04:37 yes that's interesting um because i don't remember it of course but
03:04:46 it was concerning why i did nothing about it i don't know perhaps it was too late to do anything
03:04:57 perhaps it was too late to do anything about it but certainly it was concerning gibson is an officer who essentially helps to form a branch of tom rises all the way through the ranks of the organization and takes a role in some of the factional infighting
03:05:08 infighting why wasn't that stopped
03:05:19 i really don't know i wish i had a better answer but i just don't know can we take that down please can we have up mps-0740413
03:05:40 thank you this is the witness statement of the officer we know as hn 353
03:05:56 yes if we could go to page 25 please
03:06:07 paragraph 66
03:06:14 66 he says i joined the student union when i was a student at thames polytechnic in my cover identity and became involved in the union's affairs becoming the vice president
03:06:25 president this fitted with my role as a good revolutionary in the img and was a necessary part of my cover identity i
03:06:37 necessary part of my cover identity i was a delegate at national conferences on a couple of occasions hn353 was an officer who you managed wasn't he yes
03:06:49 wasn't he yes did you have any concerns about one of your officers using a position within a national trade union as part of his cover
03:07:00 his cover no
03:07:01 no even though as vice president plainly would have some influence in the running of the branch yes it was interesting but i didn't have
03:07:14 yes it was interesting but i didn't have any fears about it he was a particularly able
03:07:15 able officer
03:07:18 officer and he would not have got involved in anything
03:07:19 anything which was illegal
03:07:26 but wouldn't it have been more proper and
03:07:27 and very easy
03:07:33 very easy to tell him not to assume any role and just to use his membership i think it had happened so i think we were stuck with it
03:07:39 if we could take that down please
03:07:45 hn12 if you use the the sticky tab that will take you to the page which will tell you who hn12
03:07:51 who hn12 is yes thank you
03:07:58 can you help us with hn12's character
03:07:59 character in particular uh as so far as members of the opposite sex are concerned no he was very quiet officer like nothing further than that i think did anything come to your attention
03:08:14 did anything come to your attention about his sexual behavior whilst he was undercover no hn67
03:08:26 yes i remember him
03:08:29 what can you tell us about his character
03:08:37 nothing really i didn't know him well did anything come to your attention about his sexual behavior undercover no in particular did you hear a rumor that he had fathered a child
03:08:52 you will be delighted to learn i am sure that was the last of my questions thank you
03:08:54 thank you any re-examination
03:09:04 i think so just one yes topic um you were asked at the very outset about uh police powers of uh entry search and seizure so that's the powers of a constable to enter premises to search them or to arrest someone
03:09:16 arrest someone powers of a constable to search an individual or search premises and
03:09:20 and seize items were the sds undercover officers doing any of those things i
03:09:28 i don't think so thank you
03:09:34 thank you that's awesome yes i i think they did however um at least copy and perhaps take membership lists and such like yes so that's correct
03:09:45 that's correct um one question from me please and um it's a mystery which you may or may not be able to help me on both you and angus mcintosh who we're
03:09:59 both you and angus mcintosh who we're going to hear from tomorrow recall being in the sds when richard clark hn297 was there and yet neither of you recall being in the sds together
03:10:14 i am totally confused about that sir um
03:10:15 um i've given a lot of thought to who my number two was on the sgs when i was the chief inspector and i remember leslie winigal i don't remember ever having angus
03:10:36 i don't remember ever having angus mcintosh as my number two now obviously he was because he was one of those who went to blackburn i think with rick richard
03:10:38 richard oh god the sergeant yes every walker dick walker um and i knew about that but it's amazing i just and i know anchors macintosh very well but i have no recollection of working with him i
03:10:55 recollection of working with him i always had it in my mind that my number two for a while on the sds was barry moss
03:10:56 moss but that was clearly confusing as well
03:11:02 very well that's a mystery i don't think we will clear up i'm afraid not sir my aged memory does not go it's been pretty good so far and i'm very very grateful to you for spending the whole of the day answering questions about
03:11:17 of the day answering questions about these events many many years ago thank you sir thank you we'll resume again at 10 tomorrow