Former SDS chief inspector and later chief superintendent Geoffrey Craft testifies about his leadership of the Special Demonstration Squad from 1974-1977. His evidence covers the use of deceased children's identities, lack of training on legal and ethical issues, sexual relationships by undercover officers, reporting on lawful political activity, and the prioritization of operational security over other considerations.
00:19:40 all right please
00:19:59 good morning and welcome to day five of evidential hearings at the undercover policing inquiry my name is neil fernandes and i am the hearings manager there is no fire alarm testing expected today so if the fire alarm goes off please follow the fire exit signs and
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00:20:25 jacket and who will be keeping a register of all attendees
00:20:30 the fire marshals will also be responsible for letting everyone know when it's safe to return in liaison with representatives from the thistle hotel i now hand over to the chairman
00:20:44 i now hand over to the chairman chairman thank you i know we have a fairly full public gallery today therefore what i'm about to say may come as news to some members of you of it
00:20:57 any of you may use your mobile handheld electronic devices to communicate to the outside world silently what is going on in this hearing room uh what you've heard the evidence you've heard what you've seen but you may not
00:21:15 but you may not communicate anything until 10 minutes have elapsed since the event which you're describing occurred
00:21:23 you may not use those devices for recording what is going on here or photographing the formal restrictions are set out in a document uh which is on i think each table in front of you
00:21:34 i think each table in front of you please consult it if you are in any doubt
00:21:36 doubt mr barr
00:21:40 mr barr forgive me i the uh you wish to be sworn i think mr kraft yes thank you please place your bible in your right hand and repeat after me i swear i swear by almighty god by
00:21:53 i swear i swear by almighty god by almighty god that the evidence i shall give that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank you i'm afraid you're in for quite a long
00:22:07 i'm afraid you're in for quite a long day um we do have regular breaks but if at any time you feel the need for a break all you need to do is say so thank you sir
00:22:13 you sir thank you sir mr kraft could you tell us your full name please i am jeffrey theodore michael kraft and you have provided us with two
00:22:24 and you have provided us with two witness statements dated the 7th of december 2020 and the 23rd of february 2022
00:22:33 2022 we understand through your legal team that you wish to make three corrections to the first of those witness statements
00:22:44 to the first of those witness statements we understand that in your first witness statement at paragraph 70 you used the cover name rick gibson when you intended to use the real name rick clarke
00:22:56 clarke at paragraph 100 you stated that you did not recall the officer that we know as hn 13 appearing in court
00:23:11 appearing in court i'll give you a moment to check who that is thank you
00:23:15 yes you
00:23:23 you you tell us through your legal team that in fact you do recall that and then at paragraph 116
00:23:25 116 you stated that the idea of using deceased children's identities came from the day of the jackal but in fact we are told you think that
00:23:39 but in fact we are told you think that the idea was popularized by the day of the jackal we will
00:23:42 we will go into
00:23:46 go into those aspects in more detail in due course
00:23:47 course but subject to those corrections are the
00:23:59 but subject to those corrections are the contents of your witness statements true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief they are can i start please with your training as a police officer were you trained on powers of entry search and seizure
00:24:12 search and seizure yes
00:24:16 yes were you given any further training about the application of the law so far as it applies to powers of entry search and seizure
00:24:26 seizure in the context of undercover policing not in the in the context of undercover policing did you consider that the
00:24:40 policing did you consider that the limitations on a police officer entering a private dwelling applied to the work of the sds no i did not did you give it any thought no would the same apply to powers of search and seizure yes
00:24:52 yes did you have any training at all during what we call the tranche one era that is between about 1968 and about 1983
00:25:04 and about 1983 on the european convention on human rights no
00:25:10 rights no did you give that convention any consideration during that era no
00:25:14 no you've told us that you didn't have any training on discrimination did you give discrimination any consideration during the tarantula era no
00:25:25 no were you trained on the pelian principles robert peale's principles of policing yes
00:25:35 yes and do you recall that one of those principles is that the ability of the police to
00:25:46 is that the ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions yes during your time with the sds did you give any consideration to whether the public would approve of what the sds was doing yes and what was your conclusion
00:25:58 and what was your conclusion my conclusion was that the public
00:26:04 as a whole are happy to live in a parliamentary democracy and that
00:26:10 and that the police in preserving the law uh with public demonstrations which are part of our parliamentary democracy the police
00:26:23 parliamentary democracy the police naturally need intelligence to ensure that their policing is appropriate
00:26:29 did you give any consideration to whether the level of intrusion in people's private and political lives was such
00:26:35 was such that the public would have qualms no the next uh principle i would like to put to you is the one which says police must secure the willing cooperation of
00:26:52 must secure the willing cooperation of the public involuntary observance of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public were you familiar with that principle yes did you consider that what the sds
00:27:03 did you consider that what the sds was doing would command the respect of the public yes why did you hold that view because as i said before it was supporting the their
00:27:16 supporting the their uh their lifestyle their freedom um
00:27:24 i think the difficulty is here is that one needs intelligence to preserve those freedoms and that is what i consider uh the third and final principle that i'd like to put to you is a one which states police at all times should
00:27:41 states police at all times should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition
00:27:44 tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time
00:27:57 public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence i can't say i gave a great deal of thought to that long principle righto
00:28:08 righto i'll move on then did you ever serve on the industrial desk in sea squad no i'm going to try now to anchor your dates of service first of all with the sds
00:28:22 first of all with the sds we understand that you joined the sds sometime in 1974
00:28:29 is that right yes i my recollection is that i came off protection in february 1974 following the change of government
00:28:42 the change of government and i was on another squad very briefly and then i was switched into the sds when derrick bryce left
00:28:49 there may be some uncertainty as to precisely when that was but uh would it be possible that it was in the autumn of 1974 no it would have been the very early part of 1974.
00:29:09 early part of 1974. and then you took command of the sds in 1976 when derrick neal was promoted is that that is correct was that around the spring time of 1976. i just don't remember according to your central record of service you were substantively promoted
00:29:23 service you were substantively promoted to detective chief inspector in november 1976.
00:29:25 1976. is it right that there was a period before that time where you acted up and were head of the sds
00:29:36 that i don't recall i simply remember that derek neal and i were both promoted about the same time and he moved off and i simply took over the role
00:29:49 you were replaced by ken pride weren't you
00:29:56 so i'm told i've forgotten that if you can't remember something please just say so
00:29:58 say so we've got a document which shows you uh going to the security service taking mr pride with you and saying that he was going to be your successor and that
00:30:12 going to be your successor and that document refers to a meeting on the 15th of september 1977.
00:30:16 1977. does that sound about right i don't recall anything about it i'm afraid sorry
00:30:32 afraid sorry can i take you back then to the start of your service with the sds did you get a handover no
00:30:37 how did you know what to do i simply moved in there uh as derrick neal's number two the p we had worked together before for extensive periods and odd and off uh and so literally he he and i
00:30:49 uh and so literally he he and i discussed what the role entailed uh and presumably that would have covered
00:30:56 covered and i don't want you to name any names in this answer but it would have covered uh who the undercover officers were of course
00:31:04 course and
00:31:09 and what the job entailed in basic terms yes did it cover any past or present information about sexual activity as between undercover police officers
00:31:18 officers and members of the public did it cover any discussion about the risk of such activity no
00:31:32 did it cover the legality of what the sds was doing and any legal considerations no did it cover any ethical questions
00:31:39 questions no
00:31:44 no did it cover what intelligence was being gathered yes and why it was being gathered yes and for whom
00:31:56 well the basic responsibility of the sds was to provide intelligence on public order activity but it had a secondary role because of the
00:32:04 the activities of the sds officers they came in contact obviously with groups which were considered by the
00:32:15 groups which were considered by the security service to be subversive and from c squad or through c squad we reported as required uh on those groups so that was intelligence on subversive
00:32:27 so that was intelligence on subversive activities uh but the main purpose was public order and
00:32:30 and did mr neil go into detail about the relationship
00:32:41 go into detail about the relationship between the sds and the security service i don't think he did i think we both understood it from your previous special branch work yes
00:32:47 yes did it cover the relationship between the sds and a8 yes
00:32:50 yes and what did detective chief inspector neil as he then was tell you about that in the sense that the intelligence we were acquiring was vital
00:33:01 were acquiring was vital for a8 in their policing of public order did he tell you anything uh specifically about what it was that they valued no
00:33:21 did dti neil cover the relationship between the sds and b and c squads yes and in outline what did he tell you about the relationship with c squad with c squad yeah oh an outline um and
00:33:38 with c squad yeah oh an outline um and again how much he told me and how much i already knew i can't be specific but in outline that c squad had the responsibility for supporting the security service in terms of subversion and that uh they would request
00:33:55 request information they would certainly be the um the group who would um advise on where
00:33:55 where we should um place our people um and everything we did on the subversion in fact everything that we did
00:34:03 did all the reports we passed through c squad for their for them to activate so uh they would either pass it on to the security service or they would be the
00:34:17 security service or they would be the conduit for passing intelligence onto a8 bearing in mind that c squad had the responsibility of providing threat assessments on public order for a8 and therefore they may and did have other sources of information to make up their
00:34:31 sources of information to make up their threat assessments but the sds of course was a major part and what was the relationship with b squad very little because of course the at that stage i can't remember exactly when things happened but the um
00:34:43 um the irish scene was becoming uh in this country her was in terms of public order was becoming far less because
00:34:55 was becoming far less because the ira was starting up again was operating and
00:35:01 they didn't get involved much in public order
00:35:04 order i suppose you could say from the troops out movement point of view yes because but that was an umbrella organization uh but it was interesting to see from from the sts point of view
00:35:17 the sts point of view how far that was um affected by um irish republican groups within troops out which was a small part of troops out the larger part was um the normal um what's the word i want the people involved in um
00:35:30 people involved in um protest and demonstration uh did dci neil explain to you that undercover police officers were using
00:35:41 undercover police officers were using elements of the identities of deceased children
00:35:42 children yes did he tell you um
00:35:49 um how that practice had started no he didn't do you know how that practice started no sadly i don't i appreciate that is of importance to the inquiry but i just do not know when it started and does it
00:36:02 not know when it started and does it follow that you can't help us either with who decided that that practice should be adopted by the sds i wish i could
00:36:16 something you touched on a moment ago did dci neil talk to you about target selection
00:36:21 selection we discussed it i can't see whether he briefed me on it i think we discussed that at the time can you recall what he said largely he said that we needed intelligence on public order that there were certain groups who were very much
00:36:38 were certain groups who were very much involved in public order and those were the areas we should cover did he identify those groups well yes we did between us because that's happening in the office at the time
00:36:49 were you given any instructions or advice to review existing deployments
00:36:55 no i don't think so
00:37:05 can i move now to the question of how undercover police officers were recruited
00:37:09 recruited and i just want to establish first of all
00:37:12 all who was recruited whilst you were head of the sds was
00:37:18 was h the officer we know as hn297 whose real name is richard clark was he already in the sds when you started
00:37:29 he already in the sds when you started or did you recruit him i believe he had just started but i'm not certain do you have any recollection of recruiting him i didn't recruit him personally but i i was involved um assisting his
00:37:41 undercover background
00:37:51 can you recall whether he had a reputation with women i never knew that he's been described by some of his former colleagues as a womanizer and in one case as a carnivore do those descriptions
00:38:03 do those descriptions fit with your knowledge and understanding of richard clark no certainly not
00:38:17 did you recruit the officer we know as hn 300.
00:38:20 hn 300. may i yes of course please
00:38:35 no i don't recall that
00:38:45 he's been described by some as a womanizer and by others i paraphrase as a serial romantic does that description uh chime with your recollection of him no it doesn't how would you describe first of all richard clarke
00:39:04 he seemed to be somebody who was affable um
00:39:11 social social activity he seemed to mix well with the other people um
00:39:18 got along well with people i i didn't see anything unusual about him put it that way and hn 300 um
00:39:30 um an interesting character it seemed to be quite a funny character to deal with and looked absolutely nothing like a police officer i can't imagine why he was ever a police officer but the fact remains that from the the job that we used him for um
00:39:43 the job that we used him for um he would have slipped into any uh any sort of organization very easily i think nobody would have thought he was a police officer did you regard him as a suitable
00:39:58 did you regard him as a suitable temperament for undercover policing well let's say i i didn't know of any reason why he should not have been and the same question for richard clarke that would be correct yes now
00:40:06 now on the basis of our understanding of the timeline we think that hn13
00:40:20 and i'm going to read a series of names if you could keep the file to the side please
00:40:22 hn13 hn296
00:40:32 hn 304 [Music]
00:40:34 [Music] hn 354
00:40:37 hn 354 and possibly hn 80 were all recruited while you were head of the sds may i ask could you repeat the last two yes 354
00:40:55 yes 354 who is his real name is no longer restricted he's vince harvey and hn 80.
00:41:18 yes in the total period i all the names i know
00:41:29 but i can't be quite i can't clear in my own mind about whether how much i was involved in the recruitment let's see
00:41:31 let's see now
00:41:37 now forgive me do you recognize them all as being officers in the sds yes when you were in charge of it yes sir if you can't remember the specifics i'll zoom out to the general
00:41:50 zoom out to the general now all of these officers were either married or in the case of vince harvey in a long-term relationship when they were recruited to the sds
00:42:06 when they were recruited to the sds was that deliberate yes it was part of the criteria we looked at for recruitment
00:42:15 and was one advantage of recruiting officers who were either married or in stable relationships that it reduced the risk of them becoming involved in sexual activity with members of the
00:42:28 sexual activity with members of the public in their undercover identities i can't say that the thinking at the time was that they were in a stressful a stressful job they're having to live two lives
00:42:41 they're having to live two lives and it was very important that they had a stable
00:42:44 a stable life to which they could return daily preferably to break away from the scene they were in
00:42:49 in so it was more about stability i think more about stability or entirely about stability
00:42:58 stability i think
00:43:02 i think looking at the sexual bit if i may
00:43:08 it was never discussed when i was there on the sds and it wasn't discussed because we were all trained from day one
00:43:20 from day one as probationary policemen that
00:43:24 that sexual activity on duty was putting oneself on the line for dismissal and in fact i still remember in my own case
00:43:35 case the instructor producing um
00:43:41 um copies of old-fashioned police orders from i think about 1830 um where
00:43:43 um where pc blogs had been dismissed having been caught with the hand with the house made from somewhere and it was all it was always stressed
00:43:54 and it was all it was always stressed within the police service that sexual activity on duty was just not on and that that is probably why it was never discussed
00:44:09 never discussed can i move now from recruitment uh to the construction of cover identities now you've explained to us in your witness statement that it was a bespoke process
00:44:16 process and that you were involved
00:44:20 involved in it
00:44:25 in it can i take an example hn 304
00:44:37 yes sir can you recall uh whether you discussed with him adopting not only the name and date of
00:44:50 adopting not only the name and date of birth of the child in question but also the locality in which he had been brought up no i don't recall it is that the sort of thing that you might well have done
00:45:04 i might but like i cannot remember a specific occasion when i would have done so
00:45:14 done so can you recall in relation to any of the officers whose cover identities you assisted with you
00:45:20 you suggested to them that it would be useful to visit the area
00:45:26 the area where the child grew up no
00:45:27 no are you saying can't remember or you didn't do it i just don't remember doing it at all i don't think so
00:45:42 can i ask you now do you know whether or not the regional crime squad ever used this tactic no i don't know can i ask you now about hn297 richard clarke
00:45:52 clarke uh
00:45:53 uh do you recall whether or not you assisted him to build his cover legend no not specifically
00:46:04 no not specifically forgive me do you mean you don't recall doing it or you didn't i don't recall doing it specifically for him
00:46:13 more generally then did you generally check and test the cover identities generated by the ucos before they deployed
00:46:27 check no but
00:46:29 but almost certainly discussed
00:46:36 who where what what kind of employment they had those factors was that a form of testing
00:46:44 testing their robustness it was just a question of discussing for what purpose so that we knew how things were and did it make any sense
00:46:54 so that you were satisfied that they were safe to be deployed
00:47:00 yes because um through the office and i think it was the sergeants who one of the sergeants who organized this we further
00:47:08 further details were made available to um the chaps who were going to the field
00:47:19 um the chaps who were going to the field including of course driving licenses and one other one or two other things did you consider the legality of using this practice
00:47:29 no i assumed it was legal did you consider the ethics
00:47:36 no not at the time can you recall whether any of the officers objected uh to using this tactic no
00:47:44 tactic no can you recall hn 80
00:47:48 hn 80 having qualms about it
00:48:09 no i can't uh does that mean that you can't remember or that he didn't he certainly didn't talk to me about it
00:48:20 did you consider the utility of the tactic
00:48:22 tactic yes
00:48:23 yes and in your view what was the utility of the tactic it provided a safe base really from the stuff in building an outer ego it
00:48:35 stuff in building an outer ego it provided it was the basis of that
00:48:43 and was one aspect of the protection it provided that if anybody went to inspect the register of birth they would find a genuine entry yes at a time when they were recorded in manuscript
00:48:57 in manuscript in a large volume and it was not possible to insert a false one it was not possible to insert a false one there
00:49:10 did you consider the risk that the family of one of these children might find out
00:49:15 find out sadly to say at the time i didn't it didn't occur to me my views on that obviously have changed since it did achieve publicity um and
00:49:30 um and that changes one's view completely and what is your view now my view now is that um it is the fact that the family of a bereaved labrie family of a child who has died have suffered enough
00:49:45 have suffered enough with that bereavement and that if the anything we did to exacerbate that i think is very sad certainly there was never an intention to do that and
00:49:56 to do that and when i look back at it i think why did i not question it and the reason i think you will find in my statement is that i had seen it used
00:50:09 by somebody who was obtaining passports to attack this country
00:50:13 country and i was involved in the prosecution of that
00:50:20 that um and also the fact that the people we were putting in the field were special branch officers who intended most of them i think to see out their whole career within the special branch they were in a top secret operation and it seemed to be inconceivable than any of those would would reveal it and therefore
00:50:30 therefore the parents of uh
00:50:35 uh addis cha a deceased child should never in fact know about it
00:50:39 that is hindsight
00:50:45 as it happened one of your officers was suspected of not being who he said he was that was richard clarke wasn't it
00:50:56 he was that was richard clarke wasn't it yes um can you tell us as far as you can recall it
00:50:57 recall it what happened
00:51:02 my best recollection and i've tried to give a lot of thought to this is that he called in and said that they um he was suspected of not being who he thought he or they he was saying he was that he was called to a meeting in a
00:51:17 that he was called to a meeting in a public house somewhere in south london and
00:51:23 and derrick neal and i went out to keep observation on the pub in case um he might be physically attacked we kept observation outside when he came out with i think two other people i may be wrong about that
00:51:39 be wrong about that he gave no indication of any fear of any problem anything at all so
00:51:42 so he carried on and i derek neil briefed him
00:51:43 him the following day and i'm pretty sure
00:51:51 he said they had discovered that he had used um the details of a deceased child but that he'd got away with it with a story that in fact he'd he'd had
00:52:07 with a story that in fact he'd he'd had to do it because he was wanted by police and he thought that had been accepted that is
00:52:10 that is some total i'm afraid of what i can remember
00:52:13 remember but is it right that he was in fact then withdrawn
00:52:17 withdrawn he was withdrawn yes and why was that i think it was felt that he would always be under suspicion and there was little point in leaving him out there
00:52:28 him out there did he say whether or not there had been any other circumstances which had led to suspicion falling upon him no he did not did he tell you that he had been
00:52:43 did he tell you that he had been involved with members of the opposite sex no certainly not
00:52:53 how was richard clark's compromise presented
00:52:54 presented to
00:52:58 to the other undercover officers by either you
00:52:59 you or
00:53:02 or as i think you then was superintendent neil
00:53:04 neil no i simply can't remember i'm sorry uh there are uh we've had some evidence to the effect that officers were told that
00:53:20 that he had been confronted with his death certificate might that have happened it might well
00:53:28 after that two questions in that uh he might well have been confronted with his death certificate and officers might have been told that i i simply can't remember sir i'm sorry
00:53:48 that experience showed you didn't it that there were limits to the protection afforded by using a deceased child's identity
00:53:55 identity it did
00:54:02 it did but i have to say looking back i find it fascinating that they were able to produce the death certificate because there is no direct connection having been involved in inquiries
00:54:14 having been involved in inquiries in another field within the branch the
00:54:15 the death registers were separate that the only if you if you have you're looking at a birth
00:54:27 you're looking at a birth if you want to find a death certificate or you did in those days you want to find a death certificate you would literally have to go through wouldn't says how many books year after year after year and also in the area concerned to discover to discover the death certificate and then then you'd have
00:54:45 certificate and then then you'd have if you're a member of the public i think you would have to pay to for somebody else an official to go down uh
00:54:46 uh to check the death certificate and also if you wanted it uh to get a copy so it was not an easy process it's quite difficult in fact
00:55:02 did the compromise of richard clarke cause you to revisit the utility of this tactic no it didn't did it cause you to revisit the risks that a family might one day find out no it didn't
00:55:14 no it didn't can i move now to
00:55:25 can i move now to training of undercover police officers before you do may i ask one question about richard clarke we have heard from
00:55:29 other officers about
00:55:38 sexual relationships which uh he uh was thought to have had when deployed you have no recollection of that of knowing anything about that at the time if he had told you that
00:55:55 that part of the reason for his discovery was that he had had a sexual relationship with a woman in his cover name what would you have done about it i would have removed him from the field immediately anything else
00:56:06 anything else then had to consider what action we could take was clearly um he had put risk not only himself his family and the operation
00:56:15 operation uh one would have had to consider how what his future what future he had
00:56:22 in the police force you mean yes
00:56:52 putting it in blunter language he would have been considered for disciplinary action which might have resulted in his removal from the police force
00:57:06 force yes the only caveat on that sir is that bearing in mind uh his rights should there be a discipline board um what would he have said what might been published we were operating in a top secret area
00:57:17 operating in a top secret area and i i can't honestly say what decision would have been made about that
00:57:45 thank you sir training of undercover police officers can you recall whether or not there was a black folder with advice and guidance for undercover police officers or any other written material to assist them not that i can recall
00:58:02 why weren't they given any such guidance we were still at a time believing that on-the-job training applied without throughout the branch
00:58:15 applied without throughout the branch that was the case and this was specific and so the training they they received was within the office talking to the people in the office but also uh out in the field we used to meet twice a week with the field officers they the trainee would come out there and would chat they would
00:58:34 come out there and would chat they would chat about how things were done what the problems might be how they should play things so the training was on the job there was no specific training program
00:58:36 program can i move now to targeting i'm going to start by showing you a document which comes it's part of the 1983
00:58:51 1983 annual report sir it's at tab 37b of your bundle it is mps-0730-903
00:59:04 i am lacking a bundle i think it'll come up on your screen
00:59:28 the reference again it was mps-07
01:00:19 i'll tell you what just for this document i will read it to you i'm reading from page 10 of the digital reference page pagination paragraph 9. it's a paragraph about security
01:00:40 it says to avoid duplication of effort by other sources the initial placing of each officer is arrived at by reference to squad chief superintendents and the security service
01:01:02 and the security service to ensure greater customer satisfaction however it remains the final decision of the officer in charge of the unit which groups are infiltrated bearing in mind the demands and fluctuations
01:01:14 fluctuations of key areas within the public order scene
01:01:21 does that accord with your recollection of how it was done when you
01:01:24 when you were in charge of the sds
01:01:32 the la the last part part of it i'm not quite sure um targeting
01:01:36 targeting would have been from
01:01:49 chief superintendent c squad who would be relaying and supporting the security service in their area but also the public order area bear in mind the chief superintendent c squad was the one who had to produce the assessments on public order
01:02:01 public order we were simply a support service in that a major support service but that's what we were
01:02:09 the decision in terms of exactly where an undercover officer was placed would be affected quite often no not quite often sometimes um
01:02:15 um where we had to get um his personality right and it could be that when we put him in somewhere fairly simple
01:02:29 somewhere fairly simple where we knew he would be picked up without a problem before he became
01:02:32 he became known as a revolutionary and he could move on elsewhere so i think that is the only part where chief inspector sds would have become involved
01:02:50 what is your recollection about who had the ultimate decision-making authority
01:02:55 it would have to be chief inspector sds because chief inspector sds had the responsibility for protecting his people and does it follow from that nevertheless that very considerable
01:03:11 nevertheless that very considerable consideration would have been given to the views of chief superintendent c squad oh absolutely and b squad yes but less so b squad because it was not very much involved in my time
01:03:21 my time and
01:03:25 and whatever was coming to the head of the sds
01:03:28 sds from the security service either directly
01:03:30 directly or via
01:03:35 or via more senior exchanges with metropolitan police special branch from the security service via
01:03:41 via chief superintendent z-score
01:03:56 now you've described what you've called prayers occurring every morning at special branch
01:04:02 we're not talking religious prayers are we we are not sir this is the senior officers of special branch conferring every
01:04:13 of special branch conferring every morning to talk business briefly is that right it was the senior officers the operational part of uh special branch meeting up with i'm talking about chief superintendents
01:04:27 superintendents of the operational squads meeting up with commander ops and from your experience of being
01:04:38 experience of being privy to some of those meetings was the targeting of sds officers a topic of conversation not that i can ever remember
01:04:42 remember does that mean it might have been could have been but it generally speaking it wouldn't have reached that level because it would have been discussed with
01:04:54 it would have been discussed with chief superintendency squad commander ops wouldn't have been particularly concerned i don't think without
01:04:55 without mentioning any of the deployments of anonymous officers
01:05:05 officers can you help us with what considerations you took into account when you were deciding how and where to deploy
01:05:16 how and where to deploy the officers who were recruited on your watch
01:05:23 yes it would depend the first factor would be where we relied on intelligence and moving on from there how would one get somebody into that area
01:05:39 and the next consideration
01:05:50 i think that was the first considerable first and only concept in consideration i see
01:05:51 i see so that
01:05:56 so that might be paraphrased as a decision based on need yes did you consider whether there were
01:06:07 did you consider whether there were alternative ways of obtaining sufficient intelligence uh from a group on which you were liked martin s squad that would be down to chief superintendent c squad if he if
01:06:18 chief superintendent c squad if he if chief c had the had alternative sources and very often had some um in a broader sense but a decision whether we needed detailed intelligence of course would come from him not from me not from chief of this
01:06:31 of this was there any consideration of whether the level of intrusion that would be involved was proportionate to the value of the intelligence that would be obtained
01:06:40 obtained i can't say there was i think that's difficult to balance i can't say that
01:06:51 difficult to balance i can't say that once you had deployed somebody was a any form of review formal or otherwise of the deployment
01:07:02 there was a continuing review of the
01:07:04 of the every individual deployment was it producing was the need to continue um
01:07:11 um would it be better if that particular person could be elsewhere but that was a continuing process there wasn't a specific review and i think you've mentioned in your
01:07:24 and i think you've mentioned in your witness statement it was not necessarily an easy thing to do to move somebody once they were deployed no not necessarily but again i come back to what i said before that there were one one organization in particular is quite easy to get into and
01:07:37 quite easy to get into and that could produce a persona who and that way
01:07:40 that way would make it easier for somebody to move into another organization we're talking about the socialist weapons party um
01:07:46 um you uh mentioned that not only today but also in your witness statement but could i also ask you is it right that the sds regarded the swp
01:08:01 swp as a likely source of public disorder yes
01:08:08 yes so it would not be right to characterize deployment into the swp purely as a stepping stone it was also a target in its own right of course
01:08:14 of course and in the scale of likelihood of
01:08:26 and in the scale of likelihood of causing public disorder compared to other groups where was the swp well they were the largest and they
01:08:33 and they therefore could produce more numbers and were effective at uh infiltrating campaigns
01:08:39 campaigns um for their own purposes we've got a note in the bundle of a meeting with the security service where they have recorded your view that the swp was most likely to give rise to law and order
01:08:53 likely to give rise to law and order problems they accurately recorded your view
01:08:55 view yes i think so
01:09:01 now we've talked thus far about which group an officer should be deployed into how often did you get specific requests
01:09:12 how often did you get specific requests once an officer was in a group to cover specific meetings seldom
01:09:21 and what was the attitude when you did receive such requests oh i think uh our response would be yes certainly if we could and that would be the same whether it came from c squad or the security
01:09:34 came from c squad or the security service uh i didn't deal directly with security service over that
01:09:42 now can i just ask you about how the cold war
01:09:44 cold war influenced the operation of the sds during your time as head would it be fair to say that the cold war was an important part of the factual matrix
01:10:10 i don't really know the answer to that the
01:10:11 the the cold war um
01:10:19 um was important in the sense that the communist party of great britain um
01:10:21 um was busy
01:10:23 was busy infiltrating [Music]
01:10:28 [Music] uh trade unions and that sort of vector to
01:10:29 to um put soviet influence into what was happening in our political scene and i don't think the cold war was
01:10:40 don't think the cold war was particularly um of particular importance with the on the public or waterfront and
01:10:41 and was it a relevant consideration that many of the groups on the ultra left did not have the support of foreign powers
01:10:49 powers unlike the cpgb unlike certainly unlike the cpgb can i take it you're agreeing with me in that i'm agreeing with you i just my
01:11:04 that i'm agreeing with you i just my smile is simply because we were dealing with uh one or two interesting um so-called maoist groups who probably felt they were supporting the activities of chairman mao or um even in
01:11:16 activities of chairman mao or um even in the hodger who was the uh the leader the dictator of albania would you believe but uh
01:11:17 but uh albania not quite in the same league
01:11:25 and the trotskyists no foreign support at all at nation state level
01:11:32 can i move now to
01:11:36 to your liaison with the security service you've made it quite plain that the normal state of affairs was contact was at a higher level but it is right isn't it that there was some contact between you
01:11:51 some contact between you and the security service we've got some notes of meetings there yes
01:11:58 there yes there was some contact but
01:12:01 but so far as s squad was concerned so i'm thinking now both as chief superintendent and as chief inspector sds
01:12:06 sds um
01:12:09 um my contact with security service was minimal i think let's just look at one example could we have up please ucpi five zeroes two seven
01:12:18 seven four five one which is tab 8.
01:12:31 now this is the security services record of a meeting which occurred on the 8th of january
01:12:43 of january 1976 where you and detective chief inspector derrick neal had gone to see the security service the first part of the note
01:12:55 the first part of the note seems to deal with a tricky issue of what to do when the security service were asking for identifying inquiries to be made
01:13:08 inquiries to be made of one of your undercover officers so that was an operational issue directly concerning the sds is that the sort of thing where you would have direct contact with them yes but that's about the only time i can remember that happening
01:13:21 remember that happening and if we go towards the bottom of the page paragraphs five and six there's a slightly different issue at which it's convenient to deal with now
01:13:35 now paragraph five reads the question from detective inspector redacted of sussex was why don't you try to persuade chief constables to adopt
01:13:46 to persuade chief constables to adopt the metropolitan police special branch system of using young special branch officers as agents and the
01:13:52 and the security service officer is saying i had parried the question in open session but had subsequently taken it up with
01:14:05 had subsequently taken it up with detective chief superintendent stanton of merseyside to see whether this concept was widely known in provincial special branches he had said that it was and that in fact the special branch course run by mpsb had a whole lecture
01:14:24 course run by mpsb had a whole lecture on the sds and its successors including the penetration of then we've had to redact that i did not give neil details but told him i had sidestepped the question and was now merely asking whether mpsb did discuss this concept of agent running
01:14:43 discuss this concept of agent running with provincial branches he said it had once been discussed on one course only by detective he says detective constable but that can't be right dixon
01:14:50 dixon and that it had been a mistake the subject was not now mentioned and when raised as a query was sidestep precisely as we had sidestepped it he thanked me for letting him know
01:15:07 thanked me for letting him know and hoped we would continue to keep the whole subject as close a secret as possible
01:15:11 possible seems from those two paragraphs mr kraft that the cat had got out of the bag about the sds's existence to regional special branches yes i
01:15:25 to regional special branches yes i that is new to me and i've clearly i should have known about this um i am surprised and because i thought we kept it pretty close
01:15:40 are you able to help us from your recollection as to the extent to which the cat had got out of the bag no i'm afraid i'm not i i'm surprised this is the first i knew of it
01:15:57 did you ever have telephone contact with the security service would they call you if they were something urgent and would you call them likewise not on not on s squad now in the sds are you including the sgs yes sorry yes
01:16:14 the meeting in question that we've just looked at didn't have a reference to drinks afterwards but some of the minutes we've got do refer to drinks afterwards would you sometimes socialize with the security service personnel after a meeting
01:16:30 i was shown [Music]
01:16:31 [Music] as
01:16:32 as a security service minute or
01:16:35 minute or memo
01:16:36 memo relating to a meet uh a drink in a pub after a meeting um that's the only one i can recall and i don't remember the
01:16:52 can recall and i don't remember the meeting them in a pub i'm afraid um i have a problem here because uh later on
01:16:56 later on and also in another life i um was involved
01:16:58 involved rather more often with the security service and we did socialize sometimes but uh i don't think so on a squad
01:17:10 but uh i don't think so on a squad when there had been contact between the security service and the
01:17:11 the special branch at senior levels and it was fed down to you
01:17:24 senior levels and it was fed down to you were you aware that it had come from the security service or was that withheld from you
01:17:25 from you no i would have been aware
01:17:36 and how common was it for communications from the security service to be fed down to you through the chain of command not very often and did they tend to be requests for intelligence yes
01:17:52 can i move now please to the definition of
01:17:53 of subversion i'm going to start by asking that we have up please ucpi six zeros four four five nine
01:18:12 this is a circular to all chief constables dated the 15th of june 1970 and it encloses terms of reference for
01:18:23 and it encloses terms of reference for special branch so if we scroll down to the next page please
01:18:42 do you recall whether or not you were ever shown the 1970 terms of reference for special branch i was not if we go please to paragraph three d which is a list of tasks
01:18:52 tasks it says in consultation with the security service to collect process and record information about subversive
01:19:05 about subversive or potentially subversive organizations and individuals was it your understanding that it was mpsb's
01:19:12 mpsb's task
01:19:13 task to do that yes
01:19:20 and what information were you given to help you judge what was a subversive or potentially subversive organization and individual
01:19:34 individual well from the outset in special branch um we learned what was considered subversive by the security service because we were responsible responding to
01:19:42 to security service requests
01:19:44 requests and so
01:19:46 and so the
01:19:47 the the definition of a subversive organization was something upon which we relied from the security service
01:19:58 relied from the security service if we go in this document to page four paragraph three
01:20:07 this is part of the appendix on function it says it is important that special branches should have a clear idea of what constitutes persons and organizations which may be judged to be
01:20:18 organizations which may be judged to be subversive of the security of the state broadly speaking these are any organization or individual whose purpose is the undermining
01:20:29 is the undermining or overthrow of the established democratic order
01:20:35 order first of all was that ever explained to you
01:20:39 you i'm sure it was very early on and secondly uh in the period 1970 to 1974
01:20:53 uh in the period 1970 to 1974 was this your understanding of what a subversive organization was yes
01:21:00 did that understanding change no
01:21:05 no can we take that down please can we have now ucpi six zeros four five four five
01:21:27 this is a again a circular to all chief constables in england and wales it's from the security service and it's dated may 1974
01:21:35 may 1974 it is about subversive activities in industrial disputes
01:21:43 could we have a look please towards the bottom of page two
01:21:59 paragraph seven in this connection it may be helpful to remind you of the distinction we draw between subversion and militancy in industrial disputes in the following definitions subversion is defined as activities
01:22:10 subversion is defined as activities threatening the safety or well-being of the state and intended to undermine or overthrow parliamentary democracy by political industrial or violent means
01:22:25 political industrial or violent means stopping there do you recall seeing this document no do you recall ever having this definition of subversion drawn to your attention
01:22:41 i can't remember being drawn to my attention but i certainly understood that well there is a difference between the definition i first showed you and this one
01:22:49 one in particular first of all it talks about threatening the safety or well-being of the state
01:22:57 the state in addition to the intention did anybody emphasize to you that before a group could be considered subversive
01:23:10 subversive it had not only to want to overthrow parliamentary democracy but had also to actually threaten the safety and well-being of the state no that distinction was never considered
01:23:21 that distinction was never considered and would it be fair to say it wasn't ever applied in practice i can't think so
01:23:33 it then goes on to say industrial militancy is defined as readiness to use or threaten the use of strikes sit-ins and other forms of aggressive action in the furtherance of industrial
01:23:47 action in the furtherance of industrial disputes and an unwillingness to seek or accept compromised solutions through negotiations conciliation or arbitration and if we can go over the page please
01:24:00 page please militancy in pursuit of trade union disputes with employers is not subversive unless the motivation and purpose of the militants is primarily political and threatens the parliamentary democratic system
01:24:18 system opposition to industrial policies of the government of the day is not in itself subversive was that distinction made clear to you i certainly understood it if we could take that down
01:24:31 if we could take that down please and if we could have up please ucpi
01:24:33 ucpi five zeros one three eight five eight
01:24:48 now this is a report dated the 17th of march 1980
01:24:53 1980 and if we could scroll down please to see who signed it
01:24:59 page four please
01:25:10 that's uh not signed by you but but by mr moss and if we go to the top of the document again
01:25:22 it's about the tucs rally against the cuts
01:25:23 cuts campaign in central london so accepting this is not something you're personally involved in which side of the line would rally against the cuts
01:25:38 against the cuts organized by the tuc fall perfectly legitimate the interest from the point of view of the sds was that anybody in in the branch was what is going to happen in terms of public order
01:25:57 going to happen in terms of public order would it make a difference if there were people uh who would be described as the ultra left trying to infiltrate that campaign it would be very interesting because maybe that's where the problem would occur if i may say here that generally speaking
01:26:10 speaking tuc activity um was not a major peace problem
01:26:11 problem uh 30 000 trade unions marching through london on may day uh was never going to be a problem i think the only thing police had to worry about was keeping the marches
01:26:23 keeping the marches clear of the traffic whereas um a small organization with 50 people determined to attack downing street could involve about 200 policemen
01:26:35 if you could take that down now please if we could have ucpi five zeros three four seven oh one up please
01:26:48 now this is a home office discussion paper dating from 1980 it's part of a course of correspondence we found
01:27:02 correspondence we found showing that the home office were expressing some concerns about uh special branch and its relationship with the security service
01:27:09 service first of all were you aware of any concern within the home office when you were the chief superintendent of s squad in the early 80s
01:27:23 of s squad in the early 80s about special branches relationship with the security service no i was not
01:27:34 my interest for today's purposes is very specific if we could go to page 2 paragraph 4 right at the very bottom
01:27:42 paragraph 4 proposes a further revision of the definition of subversion reads subversive activities are defined as those which threaten the safety or
01:27:56 as those which threaten the safety or well-being of the state and which are intended to undermine or overthrow parliamentary democracy by political industrial or violent means stopping there that's the last
01:28:11 stopping there that's the last definition i showed you but then it adds this includes the activities of organizations or individuals which while operating at present within the law
01:28:18 the law have as their long-term aim the overthrow of parliamentary democracy
01:28:29 would that rider have clarified what in fact was being done no i think we were within that so that wouldn't have clarified anything i don't think for me
01:28:41 don't think for me because you were already doing it we were operating that way anyway
01:28:47 did it cause you any concern as a police officer that you were being asked to report on people who were conducting lawful activities
01:28:56 no um
01:29:03 it was the fact again i'm coming back down to public order um
01:29:04 um if
01:29:05 if what was happening there was affected us in terms of public order that wouldn't have been certainly been a long
01:29:15 long in our area of responsibility equally if we were doing it on behalf of the security service we had to rely upon the fact that they were operating within the rules
01:29:26 operating within the rules so it comes back to reliance upon the security system did you ever address your mind to whether or not it was appropriate as a police officer to be doing this no i did not
01:29:39 doing this no i did not can we take that down please can we have up ucpi five zeros three four six nine eight
01:29:58 this is another circular this time from the security service to chief constables it's dated the 16th of december 1975 and it is entitled subversive activities in schools if we could go
01:30:09 if we could go to page two please paragraph two reads we do not ask you to make inquiries in schools on our behalf but we would
01:30:27 schools on our behalf but we would welcome any help you could give us on the basis of information which comes your way
01:30:31 your way from the local papers or from members of the public or by recourse to other sources outside schools which you can use without risk of embarrassment
01:30:46 of embarrassment do you recall getting any guidance about subversive activities in schools no i don't um the only time i think we would have been involved at all would be if um
01:31:02 would be if um school kids were involved with uh one of the organizations that we were monitoring for public order purposes the inquirers received evidence uh that both the far right and the far left uh were
01:31:15 and the far left uh were moving into schools does that accord with your recollection i don't remember the far right doing it i certainly remember
01:31:21 remember a little bit of the far left but not a
01:31:34 a little bit of the far left but not a great deal far i don't remember the far right getting involved not in my time may have been but i don't recall it and we have seen sds reports about children
01:31:35 children who were
01:31:40 who were active with groups like school kids against the nazis um
01:31:45 um on what basis were you as an organization reporting this sort of thing
01:31:51 thing i can only from my no direct recollection of this but it would be because something like uh an
01:32:02 because something like uh an organization of that name would have been almost certainly um um
01:32:04 um sw um
01:32:09 sw um supported organized lead probably did you mean swp i mean swp worker swp yes various names um
01:32:17 the
01:32:22 circular i've just read to you expresses a fear of embarrassment did you consider there were any sensitivities about reporting on children
01:32:28 children no
01:32:32 no are you able to help us with what embarrassment was feared
01:32:41 no i don't recall it arising we were dealing with public order again
01:32:48 we can take that down now please standing back now on the question of subversion with hindsight do you think you were given sufficient training about the definition of subversion
01:33:08 i don't know what i would say all i can answer there is that
01:33:11 is that i come back to an earlier answer in the sense that a lot of training was on the job and that is a a young special branch officer on c squad um i absorbed
01:33:24 i absorbed all that kind of material and so i was quite comfortable with what was considered subversive and what was not later on of course when we were looking at the industrial scene
01:33:37 we were looking at the industrial scene um again i was very clear in my own mind about what was subversive and what was not
01:33:45 and that turned upon whether or not the group had subversive aims of course or whether
01:33:46 whether there were groups infiltrating an industrial dispute for example
01:33:57 do you think that the undercover officers were given sufficient training on what was and what was not subversive i'd i can't answer that i don't know i they had no specific training on that
01:34:13 and move now to a different topic and that's the process of reporting i think you've already covered this to
01:34:24 i think you've already covered this to some extent but was the system such that if something was very urgent you would telephone a8 or send them a telegram it was unusual that sds would telephone eight
01:34:31 eight um
01:34:33 um usually
01:34:34 usually uh
01:34:37 uh everything passed through c squad to go to a8
01:34:39 to a8 there would be the occasion we used to cover the office at weekends when there were demonstrations on and
01:34:51 and if an scs officer called in and said look
01:34:54 look this or that is going to happen then yes the officer would in our office would phone through to a special branch liaison in the uniform ops room to let them know what was happening
01:35:07 but for most routine intelligence it went via c-squad and they decided to disseminate it who to disseminate it to did you ever have any experience of compiling threat assessments yourself
01:35:23 no not on
01:35:30 escort did you ever have that experience on c-squad
01:35:33 no
01:35:41 do you know what proportion of sds intelligence was sent to the security service
01:35:49 a large proportion i don't know exactly how it goes with a large proportion
01:35:57 do you know what proportion of the intelligence that was used to write a8 threat assessments was derived from sds reporting and what was derived from other sources
01:36:10 other sources i would have thought a great deal of it came from sts now you say you would have thought but having not done the job yourself are you in a position of authority to tell us
01:36:21 to tell us what the proportion was no i'm not
01:36:27 and again if it's beyond your knowledge please say so but would it be right that a8
01:36:37 a8 and c squad would have been able to consider
01:36:41 consider public order threats using sources such as flyers the past activity of a group the nature of an issue the timing
01:36:53 the timing of a proposed demonstration in relation to a an incendiary event or just by talking to the organizers and things like that
01:37:04 things like that i think a lot of it came a lot of it came from discussions between c squad and a8 uh yes uh clearly uh and this would be a c squad area knowing being fully aware of what was
01:37:18 knowing being fully aware of what was happening society what was likely to uh occur
01:37:20 occur and of course in many cases there would be discussion between a8 and the organizations of activities organizers of activities are you able to help us with what it was
01:37:40 are you able to help us with what it was that sdn sds intelligence brought to the whole picture that would otherwise have been missing oh without doubt the intentions of revolutionary groups
01:37:53 uh so far as a particular public order activity was concerned and so it might well be that a perfectly straightforward
01:38:04 straightforward what usually happened perfectly straightforward demonstration um
01:38:11 um was not going to create a problem but the sds would be able to feed in um whether there was going to be any problem from revolutionaries who were infiltrating and determined to become involved and to use it and
01:38:20 and to ask perhaps an obvious question we're talking about groups which did not cooperate with the police absolutely a big factor if i may perhaps it helps the inquiry here that
01:38:37 that it was almost as important to be able to assure the uniform branch there was not going to be any trouble and so therefore the numbers concerned numbers police concerned could be kept to the minimum as to say yes there is going to be a problem or there is likely to be a
01:38:49 problem or there is likely to be a problem and this is where it could happen and these are the people who may do it
01:38:52 do it so there are the two factors there i think it's very important to remember that we do not in this country have a french
01:39:01 french crs or we don't have uh a national guard in america we don't have a
01:39:06 a a barracks full of policemen we can pull out to deal with public order that every time we have to we do please public order and that is a police
01:39:20 order and that is a police responsibility those officers come from normal policing duties and of course that affects the protection of the public around london so that was one of the factors we always
01:39:31 so that was one of the factors we always had in mind was the immediacy with which an sds undercover officer could report a significant factor oh yes
01:39:33 oh yes could you explain sorry could you explain all using an officer who's not anonymous give us an
01:39:46 officer who's not anonymous give us an example no i can't give an example but there were occasions when somebody who was a part of a group and was going to be involved in a demonstration might somehow better slip away to a telephone box and make a call bear in
01:39:59 telephone box and make a call bear in mind we had no mobile phones in those days um and that's why we manned the office
01:40:00 office when there was a demonstration going on
01:40:12 when there was a demonstration going on can i move now to reports on individuals reports on individuals would have been kept within special branch files wouldn't they yes and
01:40:18 and many occasions sent to the security service as well yes why did special branch want reports on individuals special branch wanted reports on individuals largely because the security
01:40:35 individuals largely because the security service were interested in them and what would happen is the security service would be in touch continually with um c squad
01:40:44 c squad the branch c squad asking for updates on people
01:40:46 people and
01:40:48 and the branch kept files to avoid duplication of effort really um so that we knew who they were talking about what the situation was and we could answer the questions if necessary making further inquiries
01:41:06 further inquiries would reports on individuals have been used by special branch for its own purposes
01:41:08 purposes for example in compiling threat assessments for a8
01:41:23 i only in the sense that the the individuals concerned uh were people who were known to um
01:41:30 um behave in certain ways on demonstrations that's the only thing reason i can think of
01:41:34 of would they have been used for vetting
01:41:42 not not by special branch because the only vetting
01:41:48 vetting special branch was involved with was um
01:41:53 was um the irish republican field because special branch met harry carried prime responsibility for irish republican activity in great britain and therefore any vetting inquiries were passed through
01:42:06 passed through special branch but in terms of subversion that the security service would they have been used by the industrial desk if they involve if they involve trade union members or trade union matters
01:42:25 i don't know i can't really answer that question
01:42:28 question um
01:42:32 um we've heard evidence from officers that um
01:42:36 um amount to an unfiltered approach to gathering
01:42:40 gathering intelligence and incorporating it into reports
01:42:47 reports is that a fair way to describe how intelligence was gathered by sds undercover officers yes they would report on what they were learning
01:42:55 learning in the organizations with where they're employed
01:42:57 employed and they fed they couldn't stress or even tie down what they reported they reported into the office the reports were
01:43:12 the reports were if you like um drafted in the office uh typed up and then passed on to c squad for action
01:43:19 and it was left for others to assess and now yes oh yes we also know that the unfiltered content tended to be
01:43:34 the unfiltered content tended to be recorded in reports and we've found it on special branch files and security service files half a century or so later
01:43:40 later so is it fair to say that there wasn't a great deal of filtering going on even
01:43:41 even within
01:43:44 within c squad i think you're probably right yes
01:43:46 yes we've put in your bundle a number of reports about deeply personal matters relating to individuals if you want to be reminded i can turn
01:44:00 if you want to be reminded i can turn them up but we may be able to do this without doing so there's one about the pregnancy of a woman another about a heart attack suffered by one of the inquiries core participants
01:44:12 participants there's a report about a bank account there's a report about union affiliation report about a schoolgirl report about somebody's infidelity
01:44:23 report about somebody's infidelity and a report about a woman's children and another report about the sexuality of an anarchist's partner
01:44:36 partner was there any policing value in recording intimate personal details like this i don't think there's any pleasing value in that
01:44:48 in that and does it follow from your answer that
01:44:49 that you think this information was recorded for the security service or do you think it was the product
01:45:05 the product of a lacks attitude to what was recorded or both i think it was recorded for the security service and i think it's something which clearly 50 years on we'd have looked at very carefully
01:45:20 thank you would now be a convenient moment to bring sir yes it would before we do i wonder whether one of the documents that you put up could be put up again i think it was ucpi with either five or six zeros 34701
01:45:35 the home office discussion paper in which um lawfulness was mentioned
01:45:47 that's right can you remind me of the bottom of the bottom of the next page bottom of the next page that's where bottom of paragraph four is where the definition starts yes uh
01:45:54 uh could i ask you just to read that again um
01:45:58 um please and could it be scrolled down so that you can subversive activities are defined as those which threaten the safety or well-being of the state and which are intended to undermine or
01:46:10 intended to undermine or overthrow parliamentary democracy by political industrial or violent means this includes the activities of organizations or individuals which while
01:46:29 organizations or individuals which while operating at present within the law have as their long-term aim the overthrow of parliamentary democracy thank you i particularly want to focus on the last sentence
01:46:40 sentence during your time as head of the sds or as chief superintendent of s squad was there
01:46:42 was there any infiltration of organizations or individuals who were at present operating within the law
01:46:52 law but had as their long-term aim the overthrow of parliamentary democracy who did not pose a then current risk to public order
01:47:09 i don't think so sir thank you
01:47:14 we will break now for a quarter of an hour
02:06:21 all rise please
02:06:35 thank you sir mr kraft i'm going to move now in a little bit more detail to public order and i want to consider two at this stage at two particular
02:06:47 two at this stage at two particular events the first of all is the dispute at the grundwick factory if we could go please to tab 28 in the bundle that's mps-07289
02:07:10 this is the sds annual report for 1977. and if we could go within the document to page 11.
02:07:19 at paragraph 19 at the bottom of the page
02:07:21 page deals with the grundwick dispute that
02:07:27 that the paragraph as it appears on the bottom of this page is essentially describing a
02:07:36 a peaceful piece of industrial action and i'll give you a moment to absorb the content
02:07:50 yes if you go over the page
02:07:55 and the story changes i'll give you a moment to read the less the rest of that paragraph
02:08:09 and for those who are listening i had better read it following a poorly attended demonstration in april 1977 the dispute was taken up by the ultra
02:08:22 the dispute was taken up by the ultra left and throughout june july and august trotskyist inspired violence escalated in the streets surrounding the grundwick factory and especially at the two entrances to grunwick's where mobs inspired by the ultra left
02:08:37 inspired by the ultra left attempted to prevent the employees coaches from entering the factory
02:08:48 and then if we go down to paragraph 21 throughout this dispute invaluable information was supplied by the sds of last minute tactics and of the numbers inten attending and degree of violence anticipated which enabled the uniform
02:09:01 anticipated which enabled the uniform branch to effectively police one of the most violent and long-standing disputes for many years and unfortunately we've
02:09:14 for many years and unfortunately we've had to redact the specific example which is given
02:09:16 is given and it says this information was immediately passed to commander a8 in the presence of a small number of uniform police at this location
02:09:27 uniform police at this location prevented an embarrassing and effective tactic
02:09:33 tactic now what i would like to know please without any details because of the restriction orders is
02:09:36 is were the sds providing intelligence that nobody else could have obtained or were they
02:09:51 were they obtaining intelligence which could have been obtained from other sources but just doing so more efficiently no i think they were obtaining intelligence which was not available elsewhere
02:10:08 if we could take that down please and move to the battle of louisian which you describe in your statement as a new era can we start with the document at tab 20 which is ucpi five zeros 11 1 80.
02:10:36 now this is a report after the demonstration about the communist party of england ml and can we look in particular at paragraph
02:10:42 paragraph three
02:10:48 which starts details of the party's strategy for lewisham had rather typically been given to rank and file supporters and contacts at quote the very last minute
02:10:59 very last minute on the saturday morning
02:11:03 morning and further on down it describes that they were splitting into two groups one to do
02:11:15 one to do one which was going to be stationed at the source new cross to do propaganda work and join any attack emanating from there and the other to wait in a suitable road in this case tanner's hill
02:11:26 in this case tanner's hill to ambush the national front march from the side and the report goes on to describe the breakdown in communications which the
02:11:43 which the cpeml experienced on the day and some of the tactics that they were thinking of using
02:11:44 using in future it also refers to a tactic they used on the day which was listening to police radio now what i'd like to explore with you is
02:12:04 in a demonstration situation like this how valuable was it for the sds to be able to report on last minute plans such as those which are referred to in this report i think it was very important
02:12:16 i think it was very important and in terms of tactics such as listening to police radio presumably that was something that everybody knew activists could do if they wanted to
02:12:29 can we take that document down please and go to tab 28.
02:12:35 this is the
02:12:40 the 1977 annual report again and this time i'd like to go to page 14.
02:12:47 sorry that's 0728
02:12:51 981
02:13:09 i'm going to show you this document then i'm going to show you another and then i'm going to ask you to compare the two i'm picking it up about half a dozen line down which says amongst the information regarding numbers and tactics obtained from penetrated
02:13:24 tactics obtained from penetrated extremist groups on this occasion was the fact that an empty house at the junction of new cross road and lorry grove
02:13:33 grove opposite clifton rise would be occupied on the night of the 12th of august by members of the socialist workers party armed with missiles intent on attacking the national front march as it passed that location
02:13:47 that location as a result this house was searched and cleared by uniform police on the morning of the 13th of august 1977
02:13:56 1977 thereby preventing a planned and pre-meditated act of violence clearly very valuable uh public order intelligence and uh would you agree
02:14:09 and uh would you agree apparently used well by the uniform police yes now if we take that down and look at the document at tab 21 which is mps-073286
02:14:26 this is a report by les willinghale containing feedback as we understand it from sds officers who were at lewisham
02:14:39 from sds officers who were at lewisham it contained some background and then if we go to page two
02:14:47 there are some comments on the policing of
02:14:51 of uh events at lewisham which read despite advance warning that trouble was likely in lewisham high street groups of left-wing supporters and more
02:15:06 left-wing supporters and more importantly coloured youths were allowed to gather there was an apparent lack of leadership and there seemed little police coordination properly trained groups of 25 to 30
02:15:17 properly trained groups of 25 to 30 officers under the command of a senior officer would appear to be the answer the whole area around clifton rise should have been sealed off before the left had occupied it in strength
02:15:32 left had occupied it in strength the national front march was taken far too close to the main contingent of left-wing supporters the mounted police were ineffective and presented an excellent target left-wing tactics being to throw
02:15:46 left-wing tactics being to throw missiles break and reform after charges there was an obvious lack of officers patrolling potential trouble spots and left-wing supporters were allowed to roam free
02:15:56 roam free when riot shields were first used a number of officers could have found themselves surrounded if certain left-wing groups had received more support from their comrades they would
02:16:10 support from their comrades they would have gone between and behind the small groups of officers using
02:16:13 using the shields now some of those criticisms are criticisms about tactical decisions made on the day and perhaps specific to
02:16:29 on the day and perhaps specific to public order policing but what i would like to know from you is was there a sense
02:16:33 sense that the intelligence provided by the sds ahead
02:16:35 sds ahead of
02:16:37 of the lewisham demonstration and during the course of the day could have been used
02:16:46 used more constructively than it actually was yes
02:16:51 yes and was anything done about that well that report uh i believe was passed on and doubtless a8 didn't love us very much for doing it but i think it was important
02:17:00 important that that it should be because clearly the policing had not been as effective as it might have been
02:17:17 i'm going to move now to the question of the operational security of the sds you've explained in your witness statement
02:17:21 statement a little about this and we've got some documents on the subject would it be fair to say that the operational security of the sds was regarded as paramount yes
02:17:35 and there is a document in particular that i'd like to take you to it's from the 1976 annual report it's a tab one of the bundles sir it's mps 0728
02:17:47 0728 980
02:17:55 page 5 please
02:17:59 [Applause]
02:18:06 and if we could have paragraph 14.
02:18:21 that reads the political sensitivity of the sds operation is fully recognized by all officers concerned and to protect the ultimate defense line great care is taken to ensure that penetration of an organization can be fully justified
02:18:32 be fully justified on the basis of the commissioner's responsibility for the preservation of public order of the metropolis could you explain please what is meant by the phrase the ultimate defense line
02:18:54 that if the operation was to become public the commissioner had a strong defense that we were the police were acting as police are sworn to act in the preservation of the queen's peace
02:19:12 and what was the concern if
02:19:16 if the fact that the sds was doing what it was doing had come out what reaction was feared oh the um
02:19:28 oh the um the attack upon the police by the media for doing what for um
02:19:33 for um acting undercover to um achieve the result within
02:19:39 within political groups yes
02:19:45 and was it fear that that would be an embarrassment for the commissioner that's a word we've seen in several of the documents would be an embarrassment if the commissioner didn't have the defense the defense was quite clear i think
02:20:03 defense was quite clear i think and to what extent did you keep that in mind when you were head of the sds oh i was always aware of the sds responsibilities and the fact that we were all
02:20:09 were all still police constables and how do you square that with
02:20:21 taking instructions from the security service about subversive groups that were behaving lawfully on the basis that the government had directed that was the way we should operate in support of the security
02:20:34 operate in support of the security service and ultimately of course the security service has responsibility for the security of the state internally and therefore naturally police should support them and in terms of
02:20:47 and in terms of being and always remaining a police officer
02:20:48 officer how
02:20:53 how do you square that with doing things such as
02:20:57 such as entering people's homes to attend meetings under a false pretence i certainly did never saw that as illegal
02:21:06 illegal now i'm no lawyer but i did not see that as illegal
02:21:14 i think you told me earlier it wasn't a question to which you addressed your mind at all no i didn't
02:21:26 can i move now to the safe house meetings which were twice weekly weren't there and you had safe houses in the west of london and the south of london yes
02:21:32 yes and you've written in your witness statement at the twice weekly meetings everyone would discuss their deployments who did what with where and what was developing in certain areas
02:21:44 developing in certain areas and was all of that done communally yes
02:21:54 how well did you get to know the officers under your command i thought very well
02:22:04 if i can just expand on that the special branch as a whole that sds in particular operated on a team basis we didn't use surnames we used christian names
02:22:17 names people could say whatever they wanted to and felt that rank wasn't important in that sense and therefore we operated we discussed police matters um we discussed family matters it all came up in the
02:22:30 it all came up in the they weren't formal meetings they were a gathering of people to deal with specific things like expenses and reports and so on but largely
02:22:36 largely they were about again keeping the undercover officers understanding they were still policemen they were still part of policing
02:22:47 part of policing part of a police team i'm getting the impression that you spoke to them in sufficient detail to know a fair bit about them as people and a
02:22:58 and a great deal about what they were doing undercover yes
02:23:05 and you were doing that one reason being to look after their welfare yes so you were fully informed and another reason to ensure that the unit was being run properly and doing its job properly yes
02:23:20 its job properly yes one of the issues you had to look out for was the stressful nature of undercover policing wasn't it yes it was
02:23:31 undercover policing wasn't it yes it was and we don't need to go into the details but one of your officers hn 351 withdrawn
02:23:33 withdrawn because
02:23:37 because of the stress of the job if i may
02:23:38 if i may consult
02:23:49 yes another officer has described the attitude of management as being such that uh the concern for well-being meant that moral attitude was shown to
02:24:03 meant that moral attitude was shown to officers and would normally be shown is that right i don't know what somebody meant by more latitude unless they were thinking of um relationship between ranks maybe i'm
02:24:15 relationship between ranks maybe i'm paraphrasing uh in terms of bending over backwards to help of course
02:24:26 were these conversations quite relaxed did you get to know people well enough oh
02:24:28 oh yes and there was some laughing and joking absolutely and did did that laughing and joking in front of you ever become of a sexual nature
02:24:41 nature only in the sense that some of the jokes would be that way inclined
02:24:47 were there any jokes which might have inferred
02:24:51 inferred that members of your unit were
02:24:56 were attracted to members of their groups sexually
02:24:57 sexually no
02:25:02 no did any of the banter and joking suggest that any of them might have been conducting a sexual relationship with a member of the public can you recall one officer joking
02:25:14 can you recall one officer joking to another that a a woman would be biting the pillow again tonight or anything to that effect no i would not recall that
02:25:32 you have said in your witness statement that there was no guidance given to officers
02:25:39 officers about sexual relationships was there any discussion in the safe flats about how to put women off if they showed a sexual interest in offices no i recall nothing on that basis
02:25:51 basis can you give me a yes no answer to this question please did you give any thought to cover girlfriends
02:26:00 no
02:26:07 did you consider that there despite the disciplinary prohibition on sexual contact uh be a risk
02:26:18 uh be a risk that some of your officers might be tempted
02:26:20 tempted to get involved no they were pretending to be single men weren't they yes
02:26:32 yes and they were mixing with groups of young people yes
02:26:34 yes and many of the groups they were infiltrating had sexually permissive attitudes yes
02:26:49 one of the fears your officers might naturally have would be of being detected
02:26:50 detected and
02:26:51 and punished on the spot by their groups
02:26:56 yes
02:27:04 might it have been a temptation to think that if i form a relationship with a woman
02:27:05 woman that is the last thing that a police officer ought to be doing and it will make me
02:27:10 make me more secure in my cover i can't say ever thought that might it have been
02:27:24 might it have been that if an officer thought my job is to get the best possible intelligence for the police one way of doing that might be to form an intimate relationship with somebody
02:27:35 an intimate relationship with somebody well placed to give me that intelligence no
02:27:40 no you say no why not i does the thought never went through my mind looking back now if you had addressed your mind to those issues
02:27:51 your mind to those issues would you accept that there was in fact a risk
02:27:56 a risk that officers would break the rules and form sexual relationships yes in hindsight and clearly uh that was some
02:28:06 some one learns as one goes along that's something that should have been introduced by the beginning
02:28:13 do you think that you should have expressly made clear and reminded officers that sexual relations were strictly off limits yes
02:28:28 do you think it would have helped if there had been more discussion of the subject
02:28:34 so that officers who were feeling temptation that might have been put off before they went too far that is a thought certainly
02:28:49 now you've made very clear this morning that you are totally against sexual activity between police officers and members of the public if you didn't give your
02:29:01 if you didn't give your men any instructions would they have known that i would think so because as i explained earlier
02:29:09 earlier that was always the rule within the police service do you think you might have said or done anything that gave them that impression that you were a disciplinarian on this issue
02:29:21 not that i know
02:29:28 at least one witness has told us that they were
02:29:29 they were very clear that that was your attitude
02:29:37 does that sound credible it sounds credible
02:29:47 now in your witness statement uh when explaining your opposition to sexual activity between undercover police officers and civilians you describe the risk to the officer their identity their family and the risk to the operations
02:30:00 to the operations first of all what was the risk to their family that you had in mind
02:30:12 well i think what was going through my mind when i made that statement was the possibility of disease um
02:30:16 um the effect on the relationship with a with a wife um and uh
02:30:28 anything they might an individual officer might have come out with in the course of sexual activity which could have damaged the operation
02:30:35 did you consider they may be under threat from the group that had been infiltrated
02:30:42 uh i don't i can't say i consider that at the time
02:30:52 were the groups that were being infiltrated no names please um of a kind that might have posed a threat to the family or not oh the threat to the family i'm thinking of is
02:30:59 of is more the case of transmissible disease and the breakup of a marriage sexually transmitted diseases
02:31:08 now the one thing that's missing from your witness statement on this subject is consideration of the woman who is deceived why wasn't that mentioned in your witness statement
02:31:26 i don't think the question was posed i my statements were made in response to questions
02:31:29 questions and i just gave the answers at the time so if i didn't mention it that is why it's not fair and what is
02:31:36 what is your view so far as the activist or member of the public who is deceived into sexual relationships by
02:31:46 by one of your undercover officers
02:31:54 i'm not happy about it but
02:31:59 but what is the alternative because
02:32:00 because um accepting that rape is not involved um does all sexual activity in
02:32:11 um does all sexual activity in terms of modern moral attitudes require a legally endorsed exchange of cvs before sexual activity takes place and so
02:32:20 and so to the extent to which the uh man concerned was operating under false colors is that something which um one could
02:32:35 is that something which um one could prevent i don't know i that is the way my mind is working it's wrong but how does one prevent it in the light of that answer might i ask you how would you calibrate the level of contrition
02:32:49 i would say i am very sad that it happened
02:32:51 happened and what would you say to the women concerned well i would apologize if my officers behave in a certain way
02:33:04 can we go back now i know you were asked a few questions about this by the chairman earlier this morning but i want to return to richard clarke now he deployed into goldsmith college didn't he
02:33:22 i think that was a move he made as part of being i think he was um
02:33:23 um swp and i think that's how he moved in in there that's what as far as i can remember he he becomes active in the troops out movement and he's active in setting up
02:33:35 movement and he's active in setting up the south east london forgive me branch of the troops out movement
02:33:46 of the troops out movement and gets involved with a small number of activists who are students at goldsmith college yes does that refresh your memory yes thank you now that atmosphere perhaps above all others is one of young people who may be coming sexually active
02:34:04 who may be coming sexually active early in their adult lives isn't it yes and
02:34:07 and mr clark goes in there some years older than most students yes
02:34:14 yes without any instruction as to how to behave yes we are told by his colleagues that he was a womanizer
02:34:29 are you sure you didn't pick up on that from your conversations with him in the safe house i'm quite sure wasn't there a particular risk putting an older man into
02:34:42 an older man into a college environment with young women i did not think of that at the time with hindsight with hindsight of course
02:34:51 can i move now to hn 300.
02:35:06 yes
02:35:13 can you recall a time when hn 300 was withdrawn from the sds no the evidence that we've received is that
02:35:22 is that hn 300
02:35:24 hn 300 explained to one of his colleagues one of the fully anonymous officers
02:35:34 officers that he was falling in love with
02:35:35 with an activist the office's evidence is that he relayed that information to the office and particularly his recollection was
02:35:52 particularly his recollection was to detective inspector mackintosh and then hn 300 was removed from the sds
02:36:03 as the head of the sds at that time you must have known about something like that
02:36:09 that doesn't you well that's where i am confused because of course that is something i would have known about but i didn't and i don't
02:36:23 but i didn't and i don't and i think something there is confusion somewhere in evidence because when i was the chief inspector scs i remember my number two as being leslie willingham
02:36:35 willingham i thought part of the time also it was barry moss but i have no recollection of working with angus macintosh on the sts
02:36:50 on the sts and i've thought about it because i know that the suggestion is he was there and a timeline had indicated but without looking at um our records of service i can't i just have no recollection at all of being there with angus mcintosh and certainly i have no recollection of the withdrawal of
02:37:03 withdrawal of that particular undercover officer from the field i have none whatsoever i know this is an extremely difficult question and if it's unfair just say so
02:37:16 question and if it's unfair just say so but i'd be interested if you can help us with whether you think this might have happened on your watch and you simply cannot remember it or whether you are saying this did not happen on your watch i'm saying i know nothing whatsoever about it
02:37:32 which throws up a question i can't answer the question
02:37:34 question um can i move on to vince
02:37:38 vince harvey
02:37:40 harvey yes
02:37:46 yes now you managed him i think only in the early part of his deployment which spanned 1976 to 1979. when he started with the sds he was in a long-term relationship
02:37:58 long-term relationship that long-term relationship came to an end
02:37:59 end can you remember whether it came to an end whilst you were still serving within the sds no i cannot
02:38:15 if you had known that his long-term relationship had come to an end would that have been a concern to you it would have been a concern and i would have wanted to discuss it with him but i would be concerned about whether in fact he was still happy to stay
02:38:27 still happy to stay in the role that he was involved in or whether perhaps he should consider coming out of the field and would have that would you have relied on his
02:38:41 his judgment on that or not i think so to a large extent
02:38:52 we know that vince harvey slept with two women early in his deployment from his oral evidence did he tell you anything about that
02:39:03 did he tell you anything about that did you learn from any source anything about that no i know nothing about any of these uh sexual activities only when the inquiry opened and i i was amazed to learn what i've learned since
02:39:24 now there may be a paradox in your evidence that i'd like to ask you about one is that so far as the disciplinary regulations relating to sexual misconduct are concerned
02:39:35 sexual misconduct are concerned you are sure that they continue to apply to your undercover offices yes whereas the law of trespass in relation to entering private homes is one
02:39:45 is one to which you have told is you didn't even address your mind that is correct
02:39:52 correct why the distinction
02:39:58 i didn't the law of trespass i think police training on trespass dealt with um the removal of people from premises
02:40:07 premises if they were trespassing and it was always about um having
02:40:14 having as a police officer dealing with the owner or the occupant of premises asking for somebody to be removed but trespass itself was not an offence that is that's my room
02:40:32 that is that's my room recollection of police training but it also applies to the circumstances in which a police officer can enter somebody's home doesn't it to obtain evidence and things like that obtaining evidence of course one needs a warrant
02:40:43 warrant didn't think of it didn't think of at all in terms of the sts
02:40:52 can i move now to the assumption of positions of responsibility within groups
02:41:03 within groups and you have told us in your witness statement that it was a matter for discussion
02:41:09 yes we were
02:41:10 we were not keen on people taking positions of responsibility within a group because
02:41:21 within a group because if that group had decided upon illegal activity
02:41:25 activity i was always had in the back of my mind and we we
02:41:29 and we we were constantly reminded of this that the instructions in what was known as assistant commissioner of crimes consolidated instructions dealing with informants
02:41:42 dealing with informants uh required that first of all that no informant could initiate a crime and secondly that no informant could be permitted to take a major part in a crime
02:41:50 crime and we applied those rules to the sds so that we had to be in a position where one of our people was not
02:42:02 one of our people was not be seen initiating a crime so being involved at senior level in an organization could place the police in jeopardy some of the organizations which were being infiltrated weren't committing
02:42:16 being infiltrated weren't committing sorry some of the organizations that were being infiltrated weren't committing serious crimes whether some were not but on the other hand one had to be careful of that so in a group which wasn't committing serious crime
02:42:32 committing serious crime was there any inhibition on assuming positions of responsibility not in general terms but certainly an individual who was in that situation would discuss that with um with management and probably
02:42:46 management and probably another solution would have to be found there was one occasion i won't go into details
03:18:14 all rise please
03:18:32 i have made and signed a restriction order
03:18:33 order which
03:18:34 which is being printed and will be put up at the entrance to the hearing room and distributed to the tables in the public area to the following effect
03:18:46 to the following effect there shall be no disclosure or publication made of the information stated
03:18:52 stated during the hearing on 18th may 2022 today between the times 12 23 a.m and 12 33
03:19:03 and 12 33 a.m
03:19:09 p.m thank you
03:19:13 12 23 p.m and 12 33 pm
03:19:25 the order does not prevent you from
03:19:29 you from revealing to the outside world that
03:19:34 that a restriction order has been made in respect of that information
03:19:45 because we have had this unexpected interruption i'm now going to adjourn the proceedings until five to two
03:19:57 until five to two to enable everybody to get i'm afraid a slightly curtailed lunch mr kraft
03:19:59 mr kraft please don't concern yourself about uh this event it was always bound to occur sometime this is simply the first
03:20:10 sometime this is simply the first occasion on which it has thank you very much
03:20:12 very much said something that maybe made life difficult i'd be very surprised if it's the last
03:20:17 the last until 5-2
03:21:09 you