Testimony from Mr. Brice, an SDS manager in 1973-74, covering the use of safe houses, his assessment of Chief Inspector HN294's management style as running the unit as a 'fiefdom', and significant denials regarding knowledge of deceased children's identities being used for cover identities. The testimony also addresses the lack of measures to prevent inappropriate relationships and reveals the SDS's role in providing intelligence before the fatal Red Lion Square incident.
00:20:49 all rise please
00:21:11 yes thank you so much mr bryce i have a couple of topics or perhaps more than a couple um to
00:21:14 to ask some supplementary questions if i may the first is the safe house in your evidence before lunch you said that it made sense to have an
00:21:28 that it made sense to have an alternative to have a second safe house can i ask this was the thinking behind that to avoid unwelcome attention when
00:21:38 when uh there were frequent visitors as in the offices to those premises of course and also of course if we had to vacate probably because of that reason we had another place to go to
00:21:56 next topic please is back to hn294 your chief inspector when you joined
00:22:07 you drew the contrast with david bicknell that
00:22:15 that does it boil down to this hn294 wasn't particularly approachable but mr bicknell was
00:22:20 yes um what about the manner of hn29
00:22:28 of hn29 and his style of management made him
00:22:32 made him unapproachable can you help us with that please
00:22:42 well i was going to say he was he was less approachable because within i think it was just his personality he was he came across to me as a fairly dur sort of individual who probably kept a lot to himself and that does sound unfair to saying that no because
00:22:52 because certainly he's passed away but um i think that was in other words we had a working relationship but it wasn't the greatest
00:23:03 greatest but i hope it was function didn't we did you observe
00:23:12 an impact if any than on how the officers would be able to interact with him
00:23:15 him and their relations well i don't know how they they would not directly um interact with him on a regular basis um where he would become
00:23:29 regular basis um where he would become more involved if something emanated from one of those officers perhaps through myself where i needed to take him on board as well because of his rank
00:23:37 rank um
00:23:41 um i'm not i'm not aware that um i mean he i wasn't aware that he ever came to the safe house because that wasn't his particular job
00:23:52 you agreed um
00:23:58 agreed um with mr greenslade's assessment in this that
00:24:00 that he ran the unit as a fiefdom can you explain what it was about how he ran the unit that
00:24:11 ran the unit that it came to be just be described in that way
00:24:13 way well yes i wouldn't exactly use the term fiefdom but i know what um mr green said means um well i think he i i think the expression is he sort of kept his cards close to his chest
00:24:24 close to his chest um
00:24:28 um that was just the way he did things and done and some of us are operating an entirely different way so
00:24:37 thank you can we move on to hn 45
00:24:40 hn 45 who we spoke about
00:24:53 yes do you have recollection of him being on the sds when you were yes
00:25:00 you said um much earlier in the questions and answers today that you couldn't help with the compromise that led to hn 45 being withdrawn does it follow that
00:25:13 does it follow that you can't help with the timing of when that happened well i wasn't aware of the compromise and so um i don't think i can answer any further that particular issue
00:25:26 further that particular issue can we move on please to the topic of deceased children's identities i want to take you back to when you were on the bomb squad in 1972
00:25:37 on the bomb squad in 1972 did you use undercover identities on that squad no
00:25:41 no can you recall whether jeffrey kraft was on the bomb squad
00:25:47 squad at any point not in my time
00:26:01 now i've asked you many questions today um about a period of your life some 50 years ago
00:26:04 years ago and it follows that recollection is sometimes unclear um
00:26:14 um what i want to deal with please is when i was asking you questions about your involvement in any if any with instructing your officers to go to somerset house to develop their undercover identity your recollection was
00:26:26 your recollection was clear that it wasn't you and you didn't have any discussion with mr bicknell about the use of deceased children's
00:26:39 the use of deceased children's identities are you able to help with how you can be clear
00:26:41 clear and confident on that particular topic
00:26:50 i was never aware of that actual occurrence taking place um it wasn't something that was ever in my mind um i don't recall being
00:26:59 being asked
00:27:01 asked about
00:27:02 about if you're if we're talking about passports particularly about getting passports and in fact and i had a hunch that this was taking place after i left sds it wasn't something i
00:27:22 after i left sds it wasn't something i was ever concerned with and never came across and certainly ever instructing that ability to do it thank you
00:27:25 thank you mr price a couple of more questions on on the
00:27:28 on the this practice and then we'll move on to the final topic um were you aware at the time of a criminal case involving a person who'd used a deceased child's identity
00:27:41 deceased child's identity being discussed within the sds no
00:27:46 no were do you remember the book the day of the jackal being published i think the day of the jackal is when it first came to my notice can you just expand a little on that
00:27:59 can you just expand a little on that please what do you mean when it first came to my name well isn't that the book where this false identity is is outlined are you aware of that book being discussed
00:28:14 that book being discussed in special branch in the sds not to my knowledge does it follow do you recall it having any influence on how cover identities were to be developed
00:28:26 at the time
00:28:41 no i wasn't aware of it at the time mr bryce can we move on please the final topic and taking you back to um
00:28:46 um relationships that undercover officers engaged in
00:28:51 i was dealing
00:28:52 dealing with
00:28:59 with whether there was at least the appreciation of a risk by mid-1974
00:29:03 mid-1974 that officers may engage in intimate relationships and
00:29:07 and you said
00:29:13 you said well there's always a risk and certainly tell me if i'm right the impression is that a great deal of trust was placed in these offices is that fair yes
00:29:22 yes i want to clarify from your evidence please did you appreciate that that risk existed
00:29:31 existed at the time when you were on the sds or subsequently no
00:29:41 no sorry when you say no did you appreciate it at the time back in 73 73-74 of of what of a risk or rift a risk sorry of a risk of officers engaging in inappropriate and intimate relationships
00:29:56 relationships well there must be in human terms always a risk
00:29:57 a risk um
00:30:03 um but it wasn't something that um occupied my thought processes when i was on the sds
00:30:10 uh other than um married men being recruited um
00:30:19 um were you aware of any measures which were put in place to to mitigate any potential risks of officers
00:30:28 officers getting too involved in the groups that they were infiltrating i wasn't aware of anything no um hindsight is perhaps a great thing but with the benefit of hindsight
00:30:42 but with the benefit of hindsight do you think more could have been done at the time to alleviate such a risk
00:30:50 well
00:30:56 of course with the benefit of hindsight um one might be able to come up with something but i think that the fact is that when we were trying to emphasize
00:31:06 emphasize the fact that we were recruiting mainly married people with this what i described as a stable and secure background um
00:31:14 um that was
00:31:18 that was maybe inadvertently a way of preventing nothing's 100 in this world of that sort of
00:31:28 of occurrence coming to light so i think we were doing the best we could at that time
00:31:29 time um
00:31:32 um i think that's the best i can do with that
00:31:39 that thank you this is the final uh point and the final question that the
00:31:43 the a reputation of an officer as a womanizer
00:31:45 womanizer would um
00:31:47 would um if i've understood you correctly be of relevance to the issue of integrity and trust of an officer
00:31:57 well if you had a list of pointers i think if i saw that it would obviously raise questions in my mind about
00:32:08 about well i think i was trying to say this before about my judgment and recommending him for that type of work because
00:32:14 because there was obviously a bigger risk than if he wasn't a womanizer if you follow my track there um and i think it's as simple as that um
00:32:29 um it's not um something that i would have as it were gone along with or or brushed over really i think it's something would have been quite important to me in in deciding on what what would happen
00:32:43 what would happen would your concern have been greater regarding
00:32:46 regarding a married officer that had such a reputation or a single officer with such a reputation or no difference
00:32:59 well of course um i think on moral grounds um you would have to say that you take that more seriously if it was from a married officer but i don't want particularly to moralize on this because um
00:33:10 um that was just that was the way i felt at the time um
00:33:17 um i think the fact we were choosing those married officers was a way of even well if we wouldn't have chosen them if they'd have had that reputation anyway so
00:33:25 anyway so married or single thank you mr bryce those are all the questions that i have thank you
00:33:32 thank you is there any re-examination
00:33:41 um mr bryce uh i want to ask you about one topic uh that you've not i think been asked about so far can i ask you to bear in mind please that the documents we have suggest that hn294
00:33:55 hn294 was replaced by derrick neal sometime between march
00:33:58 march and may 1974. the documents we have the last one for hn294 is march the first for derrick neal is may
00:34:09 derrick neal is may yes and that in
00:34:19 1974 there was a particularly striking and grim event which occurred on the 15th of june 1974. do you know what i speak or would you like me to remind you further
00:34:30 like me to remind you further i've not heard of that sir the disturbance in red lion square which led
00:34:39 which led to a death the death of kevin gately yes
00:34:45 yes does that ring a bell i can i can recall then incident in red line square
00:34:57 line square but i can only recall it because of you're reminding me now yes but um
00:35:02 does my reminding you now remind you that a young man did die in that incident and there was an inquiry by lord justice carmen into the circumstances of his death yes do you remember that now do
00:35:17 do you remember that now do you well i don't remember any any more detail than that right now could i ask that document mps 0730906
00:35:26 is put up on the screen at page 13.
00:35:56 can you see that and can i tell you what it is it's a document the annual report signed by derrick neal dated 4th february 1975. so it covers the year 1974.
00:36:12 yes and if you read please paragraph
00:36:13 paragraph 20 could that be put up under review just read that to yourself if you would
00:36:53 yes um
00:36:54 um you see the sentence that says fortunately the sds gave forewarning of both the size of the demonstration and the possible disorder which might occur
00:37:04 occur yes
00:37:05 yes you are the only person who then had
00:37:16 you are the only person who then had managerial responsibility within the sds who is still alive and i was wondering if you could help me about what was done to forewarn
00:37:25 uniformed officers uh about the possibility of disorder in redline square i'm very sorry sir but i've never seen
00:37:38 i'm very sorry sir but i've never seen that report until it's been shown to me now and um i i can't regrettably shed any information on that point at all forget
00:37:42 forget being shown the report for the first time now
00:37:43 time now um
00:37:44 um does what it says that the sds gave forewarning of both sides of the demonstration both the size of the demonstration and
00:37:55 both the size of the demonstration and the possible disorder which might occur does that ring any bell
00:38:05 it doesn't ring any bell without incident i mean but being able to provide the information um
00:38:06 um that would not surprise me
00:38:12 the inquiry has not been able to retrieve any documents containing that information in advance of the red lion square incident
00:38:24 square incident it may be that the documents have did exist and have got lost but
00:38:32 is there an alternative possibility that information was communicated orally
00:38:42 well not as far as i know so your recollection is that intelligence reports always went or were confirmed in writing
00:38:49 yes
00:38:53 thank you does anyone have any questions arising out of that no
00:38:59 no thank you very much mr bryce for coming and giving evidence that your evidence is now complete i'm grateful to you for doing so thank you thank you
00:39:10 that i think concludes today's evidence does it not we will have i anticipate a rather fuller day tomorrow so can everybody please be here on time to start promptly at 10.
00:41:19 you